Slam Magazine Top 50 Greatest Players of all time

[Lebron23]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/130mj_0808.jpg



1) Michael Jordan

2) Wilt Chamberlain

3) Bill Russell

4) Shaquille O'Neal

5) Oscar Robertson

6) Magic Johnson

7) Kareem Abdul Jabbar

8) Tim Duncan


9) Larry Bird

10) Jerry West

11) Elgin Baylor

12) Kobe Bryant

13) Hakeem Olajuwon

14) Bob Pettit

15) Julius Erving

16) Moses Malone

17) John Havlicek

18) Karl Malone

19) Isiah Thomas

20) Charles Barkley

21) Rick Barry

22) John Stockton

23) Elvin Hayes

24) Bob Cousy

25) David Robinson

26) Kevin McHale

27) Scottie Pippen

28) Jason Kidd

29) George Mikan

30) Kevin Garnett

31) Willis Reed

32) Wes Unseld

33) Nate Thurmond

34) Dolph Schayes

35) Walt Frazier

36) Patrick Ewing

37) Jerry Lucas

38) Gary Payton

39) Allen Iverson

40) Billy Cunningham

41) Clyde Drexler

42) LeBron James

43) Dominique Wilkins

44) Dave Cowens

45) George Gervin

46) Bob McAdoo

47) Earl Monroe

48) Dennis Rodman

49) Walt Bellamy

50) Steve Nash

*Bold = Active NBA Players

[branslowski]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/130mj_0808.jpg



1) Michael Jordan

2) Wilt Chamberlain

3) Bill Russell

4) Shaquille O'Neal

5) Oscar Robertson

6) Magic Johnson

7) Kareem Abdul Jabbar

8) Tim Duncan


9) Larry Bird

10) Jerry West

11) Elgin Baylor

12) Kobe Bryant

13) Hakeem Olajuwon

14) Bob Pettit

15) Julius Erving

16) Moses Malone

17) John Havlicek

18) Karl Malone

19) Isiah Thomas

20) Charles Barkley

21) Rick Barry

22) John Stockton

23) Elvin Hayes

24) Bob Cousy

25) David Robinson

26) Kevin McHale

27) Scottie Pippen

28) Jason Kidd

29) George Mikan

30) Kevin Garnett

31) Willis Reed

32) Wes Unseld

33) Nate Thurmond

34) Dolph Schayes

35) Walt Frazier

36) Patrick Ewing

37) Jerry Lucas

38) Gary Payton

39) Allen Iverson

40) Billy Cunningham

41) Clyde Drexler

42) LeBron James

43) Dominique Wilkins

44) Dave Cowens

45) George Gervin

46) Bob McAdoo

47) Earl Monroe

48) Dennis Rodman

49) Walt Bellamy

50) Steve Nash

*Bold = Active NBA Players

You forgot to bold Kobe...:D

AND HOW THE **** IS HAKEEM NOT TOP 10???:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Lebron23]

Hakeem Olajuwon is definitely a top 10 player of all time because he's a 2x NBA Finals MVP, 1994 NBA MVP, and 2x NBA Defensive Player of the Year.

The Dream was the best Center in the 1990's, and he led the Houston Rockets to 2 straight NBA Championships.


By the way here's Slam Magazine Top 75 greatest players of all time back in 2003.


1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady

[L.Kizzle]

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/130mj_0808.jpg



1) Michael Jordan

2) Wilt Chamberlain

3) Bill Russell

4) Shaquille O'Neal

5) Oscar Robertson

6) Magic Johnson

7) Kareem Abdul Jabbar

8) Tim Duncan


9) Larry Bird

10) Jerry West

11) Elgin Baylor

12) Kobe Bryant

13) Hakeem Olajuwon

14) Bob Pettit

15) Julius Erving

16) Moses Malone

17) John Havlicek

18) Karl Malone

19) Isiah Thomas

20) Charles Barkley

21) Rick Barry

22) John Stockton

23) Elvin Hayes

24) Bob Cousy

25) David Robinson

26) Kevin McHale

27) Scottie Pippen

28) Jason Kidd

29) George Mikan

30) Kevin Garnett

31) Willis Reed

32) Wes Unseld

33) Nate Thurmond

34) Dolph Schayes

35) Walt Frazier

36) Patrick Ewing

37) Jerry Lucas

38) Gary Payton

39) Allen Iverson

40) Billy Cunningham

41) Clyde Drexler

42) LeBron James

43) Dominique Wilkins

44) Dave Cowens

45) George Gervin

46) Bob McAdoo

47) Earl Monroe

48) Dennis Rodman

49) Walt Bellamy

50) Steve Nash

*Bold = Active NBA Players
SLAM is stupid. SLAM's top 75 a few years ago.


1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady

------

Bill Russell goes from 4 to 3 in a switch with Oscar. Bird and Kareem switch. Jerry West drops down to 10 from 8. Robins goes from 37 to 25, wow. Pippen from 41 to 27. Walt Frazer was 20, now he's 35. Pat Ew from 27 to 37. Drexler was 44, now 41. Nique Cowens and Ice were in the 20s' now they're in the 40s'. Rodman jumps a whopping 30 spots and Walt Bellamy why is he here?

[Bush4Ever]

What the gay?

Comments:

Wilt is number two? Epic Fail.
Oscar should not be sniffing a top 5 list.
Shaq is way too high.
Kareem at seven is terrible. Top 5 bare minimum, more like top 2-3.
Hakeem is WHERE? Behind Kobe? My ass.
They underrated Moses, just like everyone else.
George Mikan at 29 is simply laughable. Competition or not, he dominated HIS era in a way that virtually no other player in history did.

[Roundball_Rock]

What a weak list. Lowlights:

*Kareem 7th, one spot ahead of Duncan? :roll:
*Duncan>Bird?
*Oscar "I can't win 50 games" Robertson 5th?
*Hakeem 13th?
*Pippen 27th?

[lakers_forever]

After Kobe wins the title this year:


1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq.
8. Olajuwon
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. Kobe
12. West
13. Moses Malone
14. Dr J.
15. Elgin Baylor
16. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
18. George Mikan
19. John Havlicek
20. Isiah Thomas
21. David Robinson
22. Charles Barkley.
23. Rick Barry.
24. John Stockton.
25. Bob Cousy.

[KenneBell]

After Kobe wins the title this year:


1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Bird
7. Shaq.
8. Olajuwon
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. Kobe
12. West
13. Moses Malone
14. Dr J.
15. Elgin Baylor
16. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
18. George Mikan
19. John Havlicek
20. Isiah Thomas
21. David Robinson
22. Charles Barkley.
23. Rick Barry.
24. John Stockton.
25. Bob Cousy.
I'd put him over Oscar if the Lakers win this series.

[Fatal9]

:roll: at putting Kareem at 7.

:roll: at Oscar being #5.

Don't want to keep going but WOW. What a steaming piece of garbage magazine.

[lakers_forever]

I'd put him over Oscar if the Lakers win this series.

Maybe. The important thing is that a lot of peope here can make a better list than Slam Magazine in just a few minutes. :lol

[catch24]

:roll: at putting Kareem at 7.

:roll: at Oscar being #5.

Don't want to keep going but WOW. What a steaming piece of garbage magazine.

seriously..how did Dream get snubbed to 13th? That is absurd.

[chitownsfinest]

What the top 15 should look like:
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Hakeem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. (Barring an epic choke job) Kobe
11. Oscar
12. Moses Malone
13. Elgin Baylor
14. West
15. Karl Malone

[Bush4Ever]

:roll: at putting Kareem at 7.

:roll: at Oscar being #5.

Don't want to keep going but WOW. What a steaming piece of garbage magazine.

Yeah.

This kind of reminds me of the rolling stone top 100 guitarists list a little while back that had Kurt Cobain (not a top 1000 guitarist) at 16 and Van Halen at 80something, and other great guitarists not at all.

:confusedshrug:

[DuMa]

Dennis Rodman at 69 in 2003
Dennis Rodman at 48 in 2009.

wonder what Dennis did in those 6 years to go up 21 places....

[L.Kizzle]

Dennis Rodman at 69 in 2003
Dennis Rodman at 48 in 2009.

wonder what Dennis did in those 6 years to go up 21 places....
Changed his hair color.

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is my top 20 after Kobe wins his 4th championship.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt (edited, I mistakenly put Magic ahead of Wilt earlier)
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas


wonder what Dennis did in those 6 years to go up 21 places....

Well to be fair, it takes a while to solidify a person's historical reputation. This happens all the time in presidential rankings. For instance, Bill Clinton is up from 21st to 15th in ten years in the C-Span survey. Nixon also moved up six spots to 27th during this period.

[chitownsfinest]

Changed his hair color.
Attempted a few failed comebacks as well. I love Dennis though, no hard feelings.

[delmar]

I can't believe it...
Karl Malone 18th place???!!!!Hakeem 13th????
:no: :no: :no:

[andgar923]

Does anybody have an editor's note that explains any of this?

[lakers_forever]

My dream roster:

No improvisations. Players at the positions they played in their primes.

PG: Magic / Oscar
SG: MJ / Kobe
SF: Bird / Lebron *
PF: Duncan / Malone
C: Wilt / Kareem

Russell and Shaq as 11th and 12th men.

*Dr.J is greater career wise, but it's almost sure that Lebron will surpass him.

[Fatal9]

Here is my top 20 after Kobe wins his 4th championship.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas
Excellent list :applause:

I do disagree with Magic being #3 though (over Wilt/Bird). I'm a huge Bird fan so there's a bit of a bias.

[phoenix18]

Flat out most of you guys are idiots. I heard fatal9 say oscar at fifth? Why not. He is one of, if not the greatest all around players ever. Without him Kobe and MJ wouldnt be have the players they were. Could you imagine them without the fadeaway jump shot? Or a head fake?

[Bush4Ever]

Flat out most of you guys are idiots. I heard fatal9 say oscar at fifth? Why not. He is one of, if not the greatest all around players ever. Without him Kobe and MJ wouldnt be have the players they were. Could you imagine them without the fadeaway jump shot? Or a head fake?

Oscar's total lack of team success makes him a hard sell for the back end of the top 10, let alone the top 5.

And yes, even though he was a 30/10/10 player and none of his peers were (a point loss on some people who want to scream about stat inflation), his statistical outputs would be on par with a good many players today adjusted for pace and minutes played.

Oscar has 1 ring as sidekick. With the exception of Wilt, all of the top 10 have at least two rings as a LEAD player, and most have more than that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks for the props, fatal. I did screw up, though. I did not realize I put Magic ahead of Wilt. :eek:
I do believe that Bird's peak>Magic's peak but overall they are close and I give Magic the edge due to him having 5 rings to Bird's 3 and more importantly the "what if?" factor. If Magic did not get HIV how much more did he have left in him? I doubt he would have won another title but he could have added another MVP or two to his resume.

As to Oscar, great post by Bush4ever. A lot of us place a high emphasis on winning when ranking players and Oscar is hurt by that. If you are more of a stats oriented guy as far as rankings go then Oscar will be very high on your list, though.

[BlackMamba24]

TRASH list. kobe is the real goat.

[Butters]

Wow:eek:

[Duncan21formvp]

Here is my top 20 after Kobe wins his 4th championship.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt (edited, I mistakenly put Magic ahead of Wilt earlier)
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas



Well to be fair, it takes a while to solidify a person's historical reputation. This happens all the time in presidential rankings. For instance, Bill Clinton is up from 21st to 15th in ten years in the C-Span survey. Nixon also moved up six spots to 27th during this period.

Kobe isn't where Duncan is. Please!!! Gasol led that team overall in win shares.

[IInvented]

lmfao...
Jordan
Bird
Magic
those are locked... no one's ****ing with them...

[thejumpa]

Kobe Bryant top 10? what the hell is going on?

No way he is higher than Duncan.

[YAWN]

pure garbage

[BlazersDozen]

Iverson #39?
LeBron #42?

[phoenix18]

Kobe Bryant top 10? what the hell is going on?

No way he is higher than Duncan.
10-15 years from now, Kobe will be a 20-30 player all-time. Maybe in the tens. People are just getting caught up in the moment right now.

[phoenix18]

Iverson #39?
LeBron #42?
Do you think that they are too high? or too low? I definitely think Lebron shouldnt be on the list.

[Cerebral Jedi]

Kareem at 7? The ****? Any list with Kareem not in the Top 3 is a joke. And shaq ahead of Kareem? Hahahahahahaha **** OUT OF HERE!

[phoenix18]

Kareem at 7? The ****? Any list with Kareem not in the Top 3 is a joke. And shaq ahead of Kareem? Hahahahahahaha **** OUT OF HERE!
Now that I agree with.

[lakerfreak]

Who the hell puts Iverson in a top 50 list? this person knows nothing about BBALL.

Shaq is too high as well, and Nash is too far below Kidd.

[phoenix18]

Who the hell puts Iverson in a top 50 list? this person knows nothing about BBALL.

Shaq is too high as well, and Nash is too far below Kidd.
Iverson is not a top 50 player? You are an idiot.

[lakerfreak]

Iverson is not a top 50 player? You are an idiot.

Fukc yourself you worthless dunce.

[thejumpa]

Do you think that they are too high? or too low? I definitely think Lebron shouldnt be on the list.

Talk about getting caught up in the moment. I love Lebron but....6 years in he shouldn't be eligible for ANYTHING regarding top 50....Hall of Fame....nothing. top 100...maybe, but he would be down there close to the bottom. But, if he continues at this pace, winning awards, scoring like a mad man, putting up stupid numbers, but with no ring....he will be the best playerever to never win a ring.


As of right now, Kobe is top 30-40.

[phoenix18]

Fukc yourself you worthless dunce.
:bowdown: I think I have just met the God of Ignorance.

[lakerfreak]

:bowdown: I think I have just met the God of Ignorance.

I dont think any player like iverson who has such a terrible attitude should be in the top 50.

He had good accomplishments.

And if you insult me I will insult you as well.

[branslowski]

:oldlol: At idiots who say Kobe's 25-30 or 30-40....But cant come up with 30 Better players than Kobe...30 players doesn't have the Accolades and resume Kobe does...FACT.

[miniharrison37]

Kobe Bryant #12?

[phoenix18]

I dont think any player like iverson who has such a terrible attitude should be in the top 50.

He had good accomplishments.

And if you insult me I will insult you as well.
If you ask me, from what I have heard about Kobe, has an attitude just as bad as Iverson. Wait a minute, I havent heard that much about Iverson having a bad attitude aside from his whole pratice issues.

[Allstar24]

Iverson #39?
LeBron #42?
Both aren't deserving of being on that list. LeBron will of course be on it some time in the future.

[Bigsmoke]

what makes Iverson better than Drexler?

why is Nash even on that list?

Dr.J couldnt win a Championship.. WITHOUT Moses Malone.. a 2X MVP.. so why is he higher than him?

Shaq is a bit too high

Isiah Thomas maybe a sh*tty person.. but he should be higher

[Maniak]

Thats one of the reasons I dont read SLAM

Thats a terrible list :hammerhead:

[Cerebral Jedi]

And why is Ewing ranked so high? I mean I know I'm biased 'cause I didn't like the guy and always thought he was way overrated(The N.Y. factor/bias), but I also don't like AI...But you telling me Ewing is ahead of AI? Wow!

[Maniak]

what makes Iverson better than Drexler?

Agree


why is Nash even on that list?

He is very deserving. x2 MVP and an amazing team leader.


Dr.J couldnt win a Championship.. WITHOUT Moses Malone.. a 2X MVP.. so why is he higher than him?

Agree, kinda.


Shaq is a bit too high

Agree.


Isiah Thomas maybe a sh*tty person.. but he was an amazing player and should be top 10 actually


Thomas top 10!??!?!!?!? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Bigsmoke]

Thomas top 10!??!?!!?!? :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

yea maybe i got my sir charles on a bit towards Thomas. but he should be higher.

[Maniak]

yea maybe i got my sir charles on a bit towards Thomas. but he should be higher.
Ehhh, maybe abit higher.

But that list has too many kinks for me to bother picking and prodding at.

[Cerebral Jedi]

Isiah Thomas maybe a sh*tty person.. but he was an amazing player and should be top 10 actually

Hahahahahahaha! Good one...Wait! You were serious? :wtf:
Hahahahahahaha That's even funnier.

[Bigsmoke]

And why is Ewing ranked so high? I mean I know I'm biased 'cause I didn't like the guy and always thought he was way overrated(The N.Y. factor/bias), but I also don't like AI...But you telling me Ewing is ahead of AI? Wow!

i can live with that :rockon:

[Bigsmoke]

Hahahahahahaha! Good one...Wait! You were serious? :wtf:
Hahahahahahaha That's even funnier.

i already confessed that i went a bit overboard with that statement my dude

[lakerfreak]

If you ask me, from what I have heard about Kobe, has an attitude just as bad as Iverson. Wait a minute, I havent heard that much about Iverson having a bad attitude aside from his whole pratice issues.


lol Kobe has a desire to win, and might get that chance.

Iverson's ego gets in the way almost all the time.

and the practice issue is a big deal by the way.

[phoenix18]

lol Kobe has a desire to win, and might get that chance.

Iverson's ego gets in the way almost all the time.

and the practice issue is a big deal by the way.
So what? Kobe doesnt have an ego? All professional athletes have an ego, dont let the media fool you. Read Phil Jackson's book and you will discover the real Kobe Bryant. Kobe's ego is way worse than Iverson's.

[D-Rose]

So what? Kobe doesnt have an ego? All professional athletes have an ego, dont let the media fool you. Read Phil Jackson's book and you will discover the real Kobe Bryant. Kobe's ego is way worse than Iverson's.

Young Kobe had a much bigger ego. Wanted all the shots, the publicity, etc.

Kobe has matured a lot. Like after the Shaq rap last year he didn't reply. He played his part to act like he and Shaq were buddy-buddy at All-star weekend. He's matured on the court too, the 3 that Fish hit, Kobe passed it to Ariza who passed it to Fish. Old Kobe would have hogged that shot.

So at 30 Kobe has a much smaller ego than Iverson at 34. I'm not going to put all the blame on Iverson for the fall of the Pistons but he was a part of it. He wanted his shots no matter what.

And Kobe does have a much bigger desire to win than Iverson ever did. Any player who complains about practicing has little desire to win it all.

[Ruslan`]

lol at that dude having Kobe higher than Duncan..
list is trash.
AI and KG >>>>>>>>>> kidd
Hakeem is lock for top 10
Magic and Bird are top 3 along with MJ..Get Russell outta top 3

[Ruslan`]

I dont think any player like iverson who has such a terrible attitude should be in the top 50.

He had good accomplishments.

And if you insult me I will insult you as well.

you shut the **** up *****

[DonDadda59]

::Sigh::... Where to begin?:confusedshrug:

[phoenix18]

Young Kobe had a much bigger ego. Wanted all the shots, the publicity, etc.

Kobe has matured a lot. Like after the Shaq rap last year he didn't reply. He played his part to act like he and Shaq were buddy-buddy at All-star weekend. He's matured on the court too, the 3 that Fish hit, Kobe passed it to Ariza who passed it to Fish. Old Kobe would have hogged that shot.

So at 30 Kobe has a much smaller ego than Iverson at 34. I'm not going to put all the blame on Iverson for the fall of the Pistons but he was a part of it. He wanted his shots no matter what.

And Kobe does have a much bigger desire to win than Iverson ever did. Any player who complains about practicing has little desire to win it all.
You just lost all your credibility. You know that right? Just because some one doesnt take practice seriously doesnt mean that they dont want to win. Does ABC think for you or are you allowed to think for yourself? Jack Lamebert of the Steel Curtain Pittsburg Steelers walk around a couple of laps, did some curls, and smoked a cigarette for practice. Are telling me that he didnt want to win? Its really easy to hate on Iverson, but remember this, what would you say if Kobe and AI switched places? If Kobe went through the same stuff that AI did, you would be making excuses for him, just like the majority of Kobe fans did in 04-06.

[D-Rose]

You just lost all your credibility. You know that right? Just because some one doesnt take practice seriously doesnt mean that they dont want to win. Does ABC think for you or are you allowed to think for yourself? Jack Lamebert of the Steel Curtain Pittsburg Steelers walk around a couple of laps, did some curls, and smoked a cigarette for practice. Are telling me that he didnt want to win? Its really easy to hate on Iverson, but remember this, what would you say if Kobe and AI switched places? If Kobe went through the same stuff that AI did, you would be making excuses for him, just like the majority of Kobe fans did in 04-06.
Blah blah blah. Iverson doesn't play any defense. He doesn't pass the ball.

He doesn't have the desire to win. He just wants damn money.

Put Kobe on that Nuggets team with Carmelo, K-Mart, and DPOY Camby, Nene. That's a title guaranteed. Billups took them to the WCF.

Iverson doesn't have the leadership or the will to win.

[lakerfreak]

So what? Kobe doesnt have an ego? All professional athletes have an ego, dont let the media fool you. Read Phil Jackson's book and you will discover the real Kobe Bryant. Kobe's ego is way worse than Iverson's.

I actually did read "the last season" and I bet if Iverson had a book out written by LB or some other coach, it would be a lot worse than Kobes.



you shut the **** up *****

wow great thoughtful post *********! I bet you feel so powerful now!

[phoenix18]

Blah blah blah. Iverson doesn't play any defense. He doesn't pass the ball.

He doesn't have the desire to win. He just wants damn money.

Put Kobe on that Nuggets team with Carmelo, K-Mart, and DPOY Camby, Nene. That's a title guaranteed. Billups took them to the WCF.

Iverson doesn't have the leadership or the will to win.
:applause: Prove it. Because that is a serious statement. Also, if he was just doing it for the money, why would he play through injuries. I know, I know, his name is not Kobe and he is not a laker so you cant think this through rationally, but AI has played through so many injuries you wouldnt believe it. Team success doesnt show how much you want it. If that was the case, Barry Sanders wouldnt be one of the greatest running backs ever. What about Cris Carter, is he not a great WR? Or how about the Iceman? I guess he doesnt have the desire of Kobe either. Now, to your point about the denver team. How did Billups take Camby to the WCF? He was on the Clippers last year. Nene had testicular cancer in AI's last year and a knee injury before. I guess you forgot to mention how George Carl made defense paramount in training camp, or how JR Smith matured over this year, or Birdman and Dahntay Jones playing superbly. Make sure your facts are straight before you trash people.

[phoenix18]

I actually did read "the last season" and I bet if Iverson had a book out written by LB or some other coach, it would be a lot worse than Kobes.

Now I see that your username is fitting to your personality but, being a homer is not a good thing. Seriously, assumptions do not impress anyone. They're just annoying. That's all.

[lakerfreak]

Now I see that your username is fitting to your personality but, being a homer is not a good thing. Seriously, assumptions do not impress anyone. They're just annoying. That's all.

Well see now, while I agree that you can't trust the media on everything, they aren't exactly huge liars either.

For the record, I am a laker fan before any player and if Kobe left I'd still be a laker fan.

Also, I am not trying to impress anyone, Im just here posting my thoughts about this list, which you and I agree is for sure garbage, whether we agree about a certain player or not.

lol how is it gonna benefit me to impress someone online?

[ProfessorMurder]

Why is Alex English not top 50?

[phoenix18]

Well see now, while I agree that you can't trust the media on everything, they aren't exactly huge liars either.

For the record, I am a laker fan before any player and if Kobe left I'd still be a laker fan.

Also, I am not trying to impress anyone, Im just here posting my thoughts about this list, which you and I agree is for sure garbage, whether we agree about a certain player or not.

lol how is it gonna benefit me to impress someone online?
Seriously though, saying AI doesnt have heart? that is a cardinal sin. But D-Rose is the one that pissed me off, personally. Your alright, though. Except for the heart thing.

[phoenix18]

Why is Alex English not top 50?
True. How is Lebron at 42?

[lakerfreak]

Seriously though, saying AI doesnt have heart? that is a cardinal sin. But D-Rose is the one that pissed me off, personally. Your alright, though. Except for the heart thing.

My bad now I see what the problem is,

I said "Kobe has a desire to win" and that automatically made it sound like I thought Iverson didn't have heart.

I think he has heart, but what I meant to say was Kobe's actions speak louder than his words.

You're alright too :cheers:

[D-Rose]

:applause: Prove it. Because that is a serious statement. Also, if he was just doing it for the money, why would he play through injuries. I know, I know, his name is not Kobe and he is not a laker so you cant think this through rationally, but AI has played through so many injuries you wouldnt believe it. Team success doesnt show how much you want it. If that was the case, Barry Sanders wouldnt be one of the greatest running backs ever. What about Cris Carter, is he not a great WR? Or how about the Iceman? I guess he doesnt have the desire of Kobe either. Now, to your point about the denver team. How did Billups take Camby to the WCF? He was on the Clippers last year. Nene had testicular cancer in AI's last year and a knee injury before. I guess you forgot to mention how George Carl made defense paramount in training camp, or how JR Smith matured over this year, or Birdman and Dahntay Jones playing superbly. Make sure your facts are straight before you trash people.

:oldlol: Much of the defensive approach by the Nuggets had to do was Iverson leaving and Billups coming in.

Iverson jacked up plenty of shots each game.

Seriously give Kobe Iverson's Nuggets team, that is a title contender EASILY.

PG - Anthony Carter
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Carmelo Anthony
PF - Kenyon Martin
C - Marcus Camby

JR
Kleiza
Najera
Atkins

If you don't think that's a title team you know nothing about Basketball :oldlol:

Iverson is nowhere close to the player Kobe is physically or mentally. Kobe will be remembered as a winner. Iverson will be remembered as a loser.

HELL PUT KOBE ON THE PISTONS TEAM!

PG- Stuckey
SG - Kobe
SF - Prince
PF - McDyess
C - Sheed

Rip
Bynum
Maxiell
Amir Johnson
Afflalo
Kwame

Easily a title contender. No question about it. With Iverosn though? Chemistry issues because he's selfish and he couldn't put himself aside for the good of the team.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Here is my top 20 after Kobe wins his 4th championship.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt (edited, I mistakenly put Magic ahead of Wilt earlier)
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas



Well to be fair, it takes a while to solidify a person's historical reputation. This happens all the time in presidential rankings. For instance, Bill Clinton is up from 21st to 15th in ten years in the C-Span survey. Nixon also moved up six spots to 27th during this period.

Now all of Roundball's posts make sense -- dude is a closet Kobe groupie. :oldlol: Kobe over Duncan with one more title? Duncan has 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's and 4 rings, and is a perennial defensive team member. Kobe would have one MVP, one finals MVP, 4 rings (3 as a second fiddle) and less defensive impact. There's no way Kobe can be justified ahead of Duncan with just one more titles. Two more plus another MVP and you can entertain it.

[phoenix18]

:oldlol: Much of the defensive approach by the Nuggets had to do was Iverson leaving and Billups coming in.

Iverson jacked up plenty of shots each game.

Seriously give Kobe Iverson's Nuggets team, that is a title contender EASILY.

PG - Anthony Carter
SG - Kobe Bryant
SF - Carmelo Anthony
PF - Kenyon Martin
C - Marcus Camby

JR
Kleiza
Najera
Atkins

If you don't think that's a title team you know nothing about Basketball :oldlol:

Iverson is nowhere close to the player Kobe is physically or mentally. Kobe will be remembered as a winner. Iverson will be remembered as a loser.

HELL PUT KOBE ON THE PISTONS TEAM!

PG- Stuckey
SG - Kobe
SF - Prince
PF - McDyess
C - Sheed

Rip
Bynum
Maxiell
Amir Johnson
Afflalo
Kwame

Easily a title contender. No question about it. With Iverosn though? Chemistry issues because he's selfish and he couldn't put himself aside for the good of the team.
Did you see why the Nuggets were bad. George Carl. No inbounds play? Come on. Kobe jacks up shots too. Your points are horrendous. Stop it and just think about what you are saying. You didnt even answer my questions in my post.

[Da_Realist]

Now all of Roundball's posts make sense -- dude is a closet Kobe groupie. :oldlol:

Took me a while to realize that too. :hammerhead:

[chitownsfinest]

Now all of Roundball's posts make sense -- dude is a closet Kobe groupie. :oldlol: Kobe over Duncan with one more title? Duncan has 2 MVP's, 3 Finals MVP's and 4 rings, and is a perennial defensive team member. Kobe would have one MVP, one finals MVP, 4 rings (3 as a second fiddle) and less defensive impact. There's no way Kobe can be justified ahead of Duncan with just one more titles. Two more plus another MVP and you can entertain it.
Took you that long to figure it out?

[DCL]

slam is a magazine written by potheads for stupid kids. you guys still read it?? they never had credibility. just pictures. most articles were always retarded.

[D-Rose]

Did you see why the Nuggets were bad. George Carl. No inbounds play? Come on. Kobe jacks up shots too. Your points are horrendous. Stop it and just think about what you are saying. You didnt even answer my questions in my post.

I'm just saying that if you put Kobe on Iverson's last two teams there would be much better results. Kobe always has his eyes set on the prize. Iverson, not sure about him honestly. Don't you agree that Kobe + Melo or Kobe + Rip/Prince/Stuckey = Title contenders?

I agree, maybe I went too far to generalize that he doesn't have the will or desire to win. Kobe though does have those characteristics.

Nene in a way just replaced Camby by the way, not really an overall upgrade. Offensively yes but not defensively.

I hope Iverson does take a step down like Marbury did and realize it is about the team. I really want him to win before he retires, it's a shame to see great players not win it all.

[phoenix18]

I have another question, why does every one call me a kobe hater and call me bruceblitz? What's up with that?

[lakerfreak]

I have another question, why does every one call me a kobe hater and call me bruceblitz? What's up with that?

anyone with an open mind nowadays is considered a hater of anything lol.

Bruceblitz always hates blindly though.

[D-Rose]

I have another question, why does every one call me a kobe hater and call me bruceblitz? What's up with that?
Because you criticize Kobe in like every post, even when it is clearly biased hate.

Not sure anyone's called you Bruce, there's only one Bruce on ISH :lol

[phoenix18]

anyone with an open mind nowadays is considered a hater of anything lol.

Bruceblitz always hates blindly though.
Check out what RocketGreatness said to me in his thread. Complete asshole stuff there,first rate.

[phoenix18]

Because you criticize Kobe in like every post, even when it is clearly biased hate.

Not sure anyone's called you Bruce, there's only one Bruce on ISH :lol
I didnt hate on Kobe in any of my posts in this thread so what your reason now?

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

KG is a top 20 player...

[phoenix18]

KG is a top 20 player...
Oh no. Are you and KG5MVP brothers or something?

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

Oh no. Are you and KG5MVP brothers or something? Nope...

[D-Rose]

Check out what RocketGreatness said to me in his thread. Complete asshole stuff there,first rate.
Lol, he's like that to anyone he doesn't agree with.

Well I mean obviously you don't like Kobe, so on this forum I guess therefore you are a "hater"?

[phoenix18]

Lol, he's like that to anyone he doesn't agree with.

Well I mean obviously you don't like Kobe, so on this forum I guess therefore you are a "hater"?
I am objective about Kobe. I just think that he had all the advantages in the world, screwed it up, and then got them back. But on the other hand, watching Kobe has made me a much,much,better player, no doubt. He is one the greatest players ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe over Duncan with one more title?

Yes. That would equalize them in the official championship column (The 07' Spurs should have lost in the WCSF if it weren't for Cheap Shot Rob and Stern suspending Amare). Factor in the quality of opponents defeated on top of C.S. Rob and Kobe's 4 rings>Duncan's 4 (one is illegitimate and the other, while legitimate, was gifted to him by Ewing's injury). The quality of their opponents from 2000-07 is similar but Duncan beat a Ewing-less Knicks squad in the shortened lockout season. Kobe is beating a deep Magic team. Kobe is by far the more dominant offensive player. His peak ppg is 35.4--ten points higher than Duncan's best. On defense Duncan is great but Kobe is also a good defender so Kobe's offensive superiority>Duncan's defensive superiority.

:oldlol: at you MJ fans. If you give Kobe credit you are a groupie? He is underrated on here because of your ilk. If he wins the title this year most people will have him ranked at least top 12-13. It is not exactly a huge leap from 9th to 12th. The top tier is clear: MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, and Shaq. The next tier is a bit murky. There you find Hakeem, Duncan, Oscar, West, and a few others. Kobe is among this group. How you rank these guys depends a lot on personal criteria (i.e. I place special emphasis on winning. Someone like Sir_Charles, for example, does not) and personal bias. These guys are fairly interchangeable.


Finals MVP'

:roll:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yes. That would equalize them in the official championship column (The 07' Spurs should have lost in the WCSF if it weren't for Cheap Shot Rob and Stern suspending Amare). Factor in the quality of opponents defeated on top of C.S. Rob and Kobe's 4 rings>Duncan's 4 (one is illegitimate and the other, while legitimate, was gifted to him by Ewing's injury). The quality of their opponents from 2000-07 is similar but Duncan beat a Ewing-less Knicks squad in the shortened lockout season. By this moronic standard Bryant really only has 1 ring aiming for # 2. 2000 be the year the Blazers were robbed in Game 7 and we shan't examine the Kings series in 2002.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: switch into your gimmick account for the conspiracy theories. The Cheap Shot Rob incident is on record. Stern had a chance to make an exception to the letter of the rule and allow the series to be decided on the court. This is, after all, the same group which did so for the Boston Celtic's Rondo's flagrant fouls this year. The 2002 and 2000 WCF's are mere speculation and rumor, like the alleged suspension of your hero during the 90's.

[Sir Charles]

What a Joke of an Election

Start Selection By Impact, Efficiency and The Casts They Have Around...

[Solid Snake]

First thing to do to correct this list:

Get EVERYONE who played in their prime BEFORE the 70's the HELL off this list. They don't COUNT. Their stats don't COUNT. Everything becomes seriously skewed once we begin including these non-atheletes into this array.

So yup, I'm talking Wilt, Bill, all them muthaphuckas. There's nothing great about dominating what are the equivalent of grade school kids.

[Duncan21formvp]

No matter who plays in LA they will always be overrated if they have won multiple titles and they play their career there. Had Pippen played in LA and won only 3-4 rings with Prime Shaq, Lakers fans would be saying Pippen was better than Bird.

It is just how it is in LA.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: as if incorporating Wilt into your gimmick fools anyone.

The series was 2-2. The Suns narrowly lost game 5 by a mere three points without Amare and despite having only 7 players available, one who played a scant 3 minutes. Common sense says that with Amare they would win that game. If the series is 3-2 the momentum changes and who knows if the Spurs would win game 6. Even if they did it is likely that Phoenix would win game 7 at home.

Where is your evidence for the 2000 and 2002 conspiracy theories? If there is legit evidence present it.

[D-Rose]

No matter who plays in LA they will always be overrated if they have won multiple titles and they play their career there. Had Pippen played in LA and won only 3-4 rings with Prime Shaq, Lakers fans would be saying Pippen was better than Bird.

It is just how it is in LA.
No one ever said Kobe>Bird if that's what you're implying.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yes. That would equalize them in the official championship column

Yeah, except for the fact that Kobe's 4 wouldn't = Duncan's 4, just like Pip's 6 don't equal MJ's 6.


He is underrated on here because of your ilk. If he wins the title this year most people will have him ranked at least top 12-13. It is not exactly a huge leap from 9th to 12th. The top tier is clear: MJ, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, and Shaq. The next tier is a bit murky. There you find Hakeem, Duncan, Oscar, West, and a few others. Kobe is among this group.

So basically you can't provide any basis for ranking Kobe over Duncan with just one more title and no other accolades. Thanks.

Again, 4 titles as the clear best player on your team > 4 titles with 3 of those as the clear second best player. 2 MVP's > 1 MVP. 3 Finals MVP's > 1 Finals MVP. Duncan's defensive impact > Kobe's defensive impact.


You have no case. You're just a groupie.


If you give Kobe credit you are a groupie?

No, but when you give him UNDUE credit, and have no rational basis for asserting that he should be ranjed above Duncan with just one more title, that DOES make you a groupie.

[Roundball_Rock]

First thing to do to correct this list:

Get EVERYONE who played in their prime BEFORE the 70's the HELL off this list. They don't COUNT. Their stats don't COUNT.

It would make sense to separate NBA records into two, the modern era and the old era. This is done in NASCAR, whose 50's and 60's were also a joke. The big problem I have with the old era is that you could win a championship by beating, say, 7 teams in 1963. People then sit here in 2009 and place a ring won in 1963 on the same level as one won against nearly 30 teams in 1993 or 2003. Making the conference semifinals today>a 60's championship.


No matter who plays in LA they will always be overrated if they have won multiple titles and they play their career there.

That happens in every city. Look at San Antonio. David Robinson, allegedly Hakeem's equal, was a perennial loser until Duncan came to town. Robinson was 2nd in MVP voting in 1994 and promptly lost 1-3 in the first round with HCA. That is a perfect example of "the Admiral" era in SA. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, except for the fact that Kobe's 4 wouldn't = Duncan's 4

:oldlol: @ the zealotry. Kobe's 4>Duncan's 4. This is opinion, not fact, btw. :D


So basically you can't provide any basis for ranking Kobe over Duncan with just one more title and no other accolades.

I did, read above.

How about this? You rank MJ over Kareem, right? Kareem=6 MVP's, 6 rings. Jordan=5 MVP's, 6 rings. How about Russell and MJ? Russell=5 MVP's, 11 rings. Let me guess: the difference is MJ was the greater scorer?

Come back when Duncan averages 35 ppg and scores 81 in a game.

[Abraham Lincoln]

:roll: as if incorporating Wilt into your gimmick fools anyone.

The series was 2-2. The Suns narrowly lost game 5 by a mere three points without Amare and despite having only 7 players available, one who played a scant 3 minutes. Common sense says that with Amare they would win that game. If the series is 3-2 the momentum changes and who knows if the Spurs would win game 6. Even if they did it is likely that Phoenix would win game 7 at home.

Where is your evidence for the 2000 and 2002 conspiracy theories? If there is legit evidence present it.

Watch the games. It be obvious to all but the self blinded. Both Lakers riggings be in an elimination game. What you say in 2007 is a mere speculative opinion. There be ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY to know who prevals from the series. And I be not the likes of who you think I am, for thou shan't make haste to judge the wise man in the future.

Tis embarrassing you have to tear down the likes of Duncan to attempt and prop Bryant upwards. You be just as bad as all the Jordan fellators you constantly b**ch about.

[Roundball_Rock]

Watch the games. It be obvious to all but the self blinded. Both Lakers riggings be in an elimination game

:roll:

Tear down, Duncan? :oldlol: Read my posts. I have praised him winning with scrubs in 2003.

[Abraham Lincoln]

:roll:

Tear down, Duncan? :oldlol: Read my posts. I have praised him winning with scrubs in 2003.
Yes when the comparison was to O'Neal rather than Bryant. Get rid of switch in thy head. There be an abundance of wise basketball fans who instantly turn stupid at the mention of Bryant name, regardless of preference. The switch clicks on and they become a completely different poster. Tis be the opportunity to seperate oneself from the shameless Fatal9.

[Micku]

I think Hakeem should be at top 10, Shaq should be lower, Magic and Bird should be higher, Wilt should be lower, KG should be higher than Kidd, and take LeBron out of the list. He'll get his time later.

[Rake2204]

Someone asked a few pages ago for a summation of how SLAM came up with their list. I would be happy to obligue. An excerpt:

"How'd we do it? Well with a staff that skews young, it wasn't easy. But the newest SLAM Dome resident, Tzvi Twesrsky, got his full research on and prepared a dossier on more than 100 of the top players and distributed them to the rest of the staff. Using the overriding standard that we only grade the players on their careers up until now (in other words: imagine if every current player retired tomorrow, where would they stand?), everyone was given several days to study and prepare their own views. Then eight of us gathered in our company's conference room and hammered it out. We referenced the '97 and '03 lists a bit, but we mostly started from scratch, taking into account the aforementioned changes to legacy over the past six years as well as new appreciations for players of the past.

"There were - and still are - a few disagreements about where guys ended up, but for the most part this list represents the consensus of the SLAM editorial staff."

A SLAM writer (Lang Whitaker) regarding Moses Malone: "Why, you may ask, is Moses ranked below Dr. J, when Moses's stats and legacy are obviously superior? Well, Dr. J had a cool afro and could dunk. Other than that, I'm not sure why."

SLAM writer Ryan Jones on LeBron James: "There is no number that better describes the difficulty of doing an all-time player list than this one. Forty-two for LeBron James? I'm writing this in mid-May. Will he vault to 37 if the Cavs win the title this year? Who knows? And who cares? He's here, in the conversation, in his sixth season and still shy of his 25th birthday. Ignore the marketing and the talc showers. The stats, not to mention the opinions of his rivals and peers, do not lie: being ranked No. 42 right now is irrelevant. King James' destiny is single-digit."

Two interesting tid-bits I feel like I should have known, but did not:

1) Jerry West and the Lakers lost in the Finals in each of his first six seasons.

and

2) Elgin Baylor never won an NBA championship, despite playing in eight NBA Finals.

The discussion and disagreement amongst board members illustrates how tough it is for anyone to publish a Top 50 list of any kind. Hundreds of thousands will disagree with their list, but it provokes discussion, and that's just how the magazine companies like it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: @ the zealotry. Kobe's 4>Duncan's 4. This is opinion, not fact, btw. :D


This is why you're clearly a Kobe groupie. Seriously, LMAO @ this. :oldlol:


I did, read above.


How about this? You rank MJ over Kareem, right? Kareem=6 MVP's, 6 rings. Jordan=5 MVP's, 6 rings. How about Russell and MJ? Russell=5 MVP's, 11 rings. Let me guess: the difference is MJ was the greater scorer?

MJ has 6 Finals MVP's to Kareem's 3, and won all his titles as the undisputed best player on his team (Kareem won 2-3 such titles, another as relative coequals, and another 1-2 as a secondary player). That's how MJ gets put over Kareem for me, since that makes up for the one extra MVP.

Russell is a special case in that he wasn't statistically dominant AT ALL (EFF, PER etc.), so all he really has is his defensive impact and his accolades. This is not the case with Duncan.


Come back when Duncan averages 35 ppg and scores 81 in a game.

:oldlol:

Again, you're a joke and a clear Kobe stan. Hysterical that you've finally been exposed for what you are. :oldlol:

[AirJordan23]

:oldlol:

Again, you're a joke and a clear Kobe stan. Hysterical that you've finally been exposed for what you are. :oldlol:

Roundball and Fatal9 are the same posters. Awfully similar posting styles and both tend to downplay Jordan and boost Pippen and Kobe.

[Fatal9]

So basically you can't provide any basis for ranking Kobe over Duncan with just one more title and no other accolades. Thanks.

Again, 4 titles as the clear best player on your team > 4 titles with 3 of those as the clear second best player. 2 MVP's > 1 MVP. 3 Finals MVP's > 1 Finals MVP. Duncan's defensive impact > Kobe's defensive impact.
Uh, he has a good point.

Duncan has 4 rings but one of them came during a shortened season with skewed playoff rankings. A lot of bizarre things happened in the playoffs that year, the 8th seed for example made it to the NBA finals, you think this is a freak accident? The rankings and homecourt was messed up. Lakers in fact were probably hurt the most that year as Shaq usually plays best near the end of the season (when he is finally in shape) and Kobe was improving on a month by month basis (still young). That single year probably has the biggest asterisk beside it than any other one.

The second biggest asterisk in league history? Possibly the ring in '07 because the direct action of the league decided the series, when it was clearly in poor judgment to do so. That was the championship deciding series too.

So let me correct some things for you:

Duncan has 2 titles and 2* titles.
Duncan has 2 Finals MVP and 1* Finals MVP.

Kobe btw was clearly option 1B (1A in some cases) on the '01 Lakers team and in fact was the MVP of the most important series, against the best team in the league (Spurs). In that series, Shaq had 27/13/2/1 on 54%. Kobe had 33/7/7/2 on 52% (higher offensive efficiency due to 3s and FT%, and closed out the games). Saying Shaq won Finals MVP is pretty arbitrary when Kobe was arguably the MVP of the team through rounds 1-3 and especially through the most important series that year.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Uh, he has a good point.
]/quote]

No, he has ZERO point, but it figures you'd stand up for your brother in arms. :oldlol:

[quote]Saying Shaq won Finals MVP is pretty arbitrary when Kobe was arguably the MVP of the team through rounds 1-3 and especially through the most important series that year.

Kobe has never outplayed Shaq in any Western Conference playoff run during the years they won rings. Fact. So you're wrong. Go look at their numbers in rounds 1-3, cumulatively, and say that with a straight face.

LMAO @ "1B". :oldlol: How about you hop in the other topic and explain your whole "Jordan has so many advantages over Kobe and is a much better player, but Kobe would post similar numbers in a playoff series" nonsense? :oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Kobe has never outplayed Shaq in any Western Conference playoff run during the years they won rings. Fact. So you're wrong. Go look at their numbers in rounds 1-3, cumulatively, and say that with a straight face.
Shaq - 29/15/2/2 on 54.4%
Kobe - 32/7/6/2 on 49.3% but higher TS%

Kobe was the "closer" for the Lakers and was the clear cut best player in the most important series. Er, how is he NOT the MVP?! At worst, he is option 1B.

Like I said, Roundball was a very strong point. It can go either way but he happens to give Kobe the edge.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Shaq - 29/15/2/2 on 54.4%
Kobe - 32/7/6/2 on 49.3% but higher TS%

Kobe was the "closer" for the Lakers and was the clear cut best player in the most important series. Er, how is he NOT the MVP?! At worst, he is option 1B.


lol @ "but higher TS%." :oldlol:

How many fouls was Shaq drawing? Why were players scared to drive the lane? Who was getting double/tripled? And then even just Shaq's raw numbers are superior. Yet Kobe was the MVP. Okay... :oldlol:

Btw, Shaq shot 54.7% and Kobe 49.2% since you're getting all precise. Shaq also averaged like 2.5 apg, which rounds to 3, not 2.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ these Kobe stans who actualy believe that Kobe was the best player on any of those Laker title teams. :oldlol: This is rich.

[bruceblitz]

When I saw that they ranked Kobe over Hakeem, I stopped reading right there. This is why my top 50 of all time list will be more credible. I wont overrate current players.

(I will be posting it on www.youtube.com/bruceblitzconfession or www.youtube.com/mustseebbtv over the summer, haven't made up my mind which channel I want to post it on.)

[plowking]

lol @ "but higher TS%." :oldlol:

How many fouls was Shaq drawing? Why were players scared to drive the lane? Who was getting double/tripled? And then even just Shaq's raw numbers are superior. Yet Kobe was the MVP. Okay... :oldlol:

Btw, Shaq shot 54.7% and Kobe 49.2% since you're getting all precise. Shaq also averaged like 2.5 apg, which rounds to 3, not 2.

He rigs the stats every time.

When I said Kobe has never had a playoffs run as impressive as Wade, he provided the stats, though somehow Kobe's all got rounded up when they shouldn't have and Wade's got rounded down when they shouldn't have. :oldlol:

He does it deliberately, and he thinks no ones going to notice it, despite everyone knowing his homerism.

Don't bother arguing. Just say Kobe>Jordan and be done with it.

[plowking]

Oh the list sucks BTW.

[big baller]

What an insult to Hakeem...he is one of the best ever to play the game and you put him at 13th? Hell, I would rather have Hakeem on my team than Shaq. My top 10 list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Russell
9. Big O
10. Duncan...Just a few inches ahead of Kobe.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes when the comparison was to O'Neal rather than Bryant. Get

The statement stands, regardless of whether it was a Shaq or Kobe thread. Duncan won with arguably the worst supporting cast ever in 2003.


MJ has 6 Finals MVP's to Kareem's 3, and won all his titles as the undisputed best player on his team (Kareem won 2-3 such titles, another as relative coequals, and another 1-2 as a secondary player). That's how MJ gets put over Kareem for me, since that makes up for the one extra MVP.

Russell is a special case in that he wasn't statistically dominant AT ALL (EFF, PER etc.), so all he really has is his defensive impact and his accolades.

Finals MVP's. :roll:

So you cannot come up with a clear criteria either (as any wise man knows no one can). Kareem won 4 rings as the top player on his team and one more MVP than Jordan. Kareem is also the all-time leading scorer. So MJ's two rings as the best player>1 more MVP and being the all-time leading scorer? Wow, that is clear cut! No, it is a subjective assessment.

Russell has 11 rings, no? 11>6? He is arguably the GOAT defender. Face it: with Jordan vs. Russell you are placing an importance on offense in ranking MJ several spots above Russell. I did the same in placing Kobe one spot higher than Duncan. :oldlol:

OldSchoolBBall, is there any tenet of conventional wisdom that you do not adhere to?


Roundball and Fatal9 are the same posters.

Thanks for the compliment! :cheers:


The second biggest asterisk in league history? Possibly the ring in '07 because the direct action of the league decided the series, when it was clearly in poor judgment to do so. That was the championship deciding series too.

So let me correct some things for you:

Duncan has 2 titles and 2* titles.
Duncan has 2 Finals MVP and 1* Finals MVP.

As usual, great post, Fatal. :applause: The funny--or is it sad?--thing is these guys are so brainwashed by conventional wisdom that they fail to recognize the difference between fact and opinion or between objective criteria and subjective criteria. To them Duncan>Kobe is as factual as the sky being blue.

As to 1999, it is no coincidence that the only time a #8 seed made it to the NBA finals occurred during that "season."


Kobe has never outplayed Shaq in any Western Conference playoff run during the years they won rings.

Yes, Shaq averaged 1-1.5 ppg more in two of the three years. Amazing!

[DonDadda59]

Fatal=the biggest Kobe stan on ISH, but he's a closet Kobesexual. When he finally finds the courage to roll out that Kobe avy, it'll be as 'shocking' as Lance Bass coming out. :oldlol:

[zabuza666]

Here is my top 20 after Kobe wins his 4th championship.

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt (edited, I mistakenly put Magic ahead of Wilt earlier)
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas



Well to be fair, it takes a while to solidify a person's historical reputation. This happens all the time in presidential rankings. For instance, Bill Clinton is up from 21st to 15th in ten years in the C-Span survey. Nixon also moved up six spots to 27th during this period.

lol at kobe over duncan.

[Fatal9]

Shaq also averaged like 2.5 apg, which rounds to 3, not 2.
2.45 to be exact, which is closer to 2 than to 3. :oldlol: at you throwing a fit over a difference of .4% and .1%. Now we are just getting petty. Nice to see there was no argument for why Roundball has a strong case to rank Kobe over Duncan (ranking either over either is fine imo). Also, no one is saying he was the best player on those teams, I said he was at worst option 1B in '01.

[Roundball_Rock]

What an insult to Hakeem...he is one of the best ever to play the game and you put him at 13th? Hell, I would rather have Hakeem on my team than Shaq. My top 10 list:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Hakeem
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Russell
9. Big O
10. Duncan...Just a few inches ahead of Kobe.

Notice how the MJ stans will not whine about a 2x champ being placed above a more dominant 4x champ or a 1x champ (as the 2nd or 3rd option! Oh no!!!!!!!!!!) being placed above another 4x champ. Or to play the accolade card, Bird has 3 MVP's to Shaq's 1. And so on.

Your list is perfectly legitimate. I just chose it to highlight the hypocrisy of MJ stans as well as the subjective nature of such a ranking. I rep your post btw because I singled it out (nothing about you, it was just the next list posted).

[zabuza666]

Fatal=the biggest Kobe stan on ISH, but he's a closet Kobesexual. When he finally finds the courage to roll out that Kobe avy, it'll be as 'shocking' as Lance Bass coming out. :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Fatal9]

Another fact people seem to miss is that Duncan had a great team for many years in his prime. Kobe has only had help in his prime for only 1.5 years (taken to finals and championships both times). When you combine Kobe's offensive edge (wasn't it oldschool who said offense is like 70% of the game and by far makes more impact than defense?), Duncan's asterisks and the "what if" factor (as Roundball likes to say)...Kobe has the edge.

Kobe is actually getting very close to passing Hakeem too.

Hakeem

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 27.3
Seasons with PER over 24: 8
Championships: 2 (one with Jordan retired)
Finals MVP: 2
Prime playoff stats ('93-'96): 29/11/4.5 and 3.7 blks, 1.6 stl
Prime regular season stats ('92-'96): 27/12/3.5 on 51% and 3.6 blks, 1.7 stl.
All NBA: 6X first, 3X second, 3X third
All defensive teams: 5X first, 4X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 2

Kobe

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 28.0
Seasons with PER over 24: 6
Championships: 4
Finals MVP: 1
Prime playoff stats ('06-'09): 30/6/5 on 47%
Prime Regular season stats ('05-'09): 31/5/6 on 46% (1.6 stl, .5 blk)
All NBA: 6X first, 2X second, 2X third
All defensive teams: 6X first, 2X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 0

All of this stuff is arguable right now, but after another ring it won't be. Dude is taking down legend after legend every season.


Notice how the MJ stans will not whine about a 2x champ being placed above a more dominant 4x champ or a 1x champ (as the 2nd or 3rd option! Oh no!!!!!!!!!!) being placed above another 4x champ.
:oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh KNOWES!!!! Now you did it! HAKEEM! There is another sacred cow of the CW crowd. While he is my top 10, he barely gets in the top 10 (like Duncan and Kobe) and it is legitimate to place him outside it.

The PER statistics are impressive since PER is biased in favor of centers and PF's, although its bias against SG's is not as bad as its bias against SF's and PG's. Despite this Kobe matches Hakeem in PER. Kobe has not had any "old man years", but his career PER is already dragged down a point by coming out of high school.

I agree. If Kobe wins a 5th ring he leaves Hakeem, Duncan in the dust.

[branslowski]

True Top 10...When you add in Both Ends of the Floor and Greatness, Accolades, exc...

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. KAJ
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Wilt
9. Russel
10.Moses Malone

11. Kobe...If Lakers close out...Kobe will move up, 4 Championships/Finals MVP...All Star, All NBA, All Defensive, PER Peak and avg.....

IMO....

[BallersTalk]

Kobe didn't win a single title between 2003 and 2009. How did he go from 59 to 12? 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles = 47 spots?

[D-Rose]

Kobe didn't win a single title between 2003 and 2009. How did he go from 59 to 12? 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles = 47 spots?
Obviously he added important things to his resume. Scoring titles, All-NBA teams, All-NBA Defensive, MVP.

Then of course he is on the cusp of adding another ring (without Shaq this time) and presumably a Finals MVP.

Yeah that's a lot.

[big baller]

True Top 10...When you add in Both Ends of the Floor and Greatness, Accolades, exc...

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. KAJ
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Wilt
9. Russel
10.Moses Malone

11. Kobe...If Lakers close out...Kobe will move up, 4 Championships/Finals MVP...All Star, All NBA, All Defensive, PER Peak and avg.....

IMO....


Duncan at #4? No, sorry..

[BallersTalk]

Obviously he added important things to his resume. Scoring titles, All-NBA teams, All-NBA Defensive, MVP.

Then of course he is on the cusp of adding another ring (without Shaq this time) and presumably a Finals MVP.

Yeah that's a lot.
Not enough to go up 47 spots. And the list is made with the current accomplishments not future possible accomplishments. With 3 rings in 2003, he was still at 59. These lists make absolutely no sense.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not enough to go up 47 spots. And the list is made with the current accomplishments not future possible accomplishments. With 3 rings in 2003, he was still at 59. These lists make absolutely no sense.

Dennis Rodman has magically jumped from #69 to #48 in retirement.

[D-Rose]

Not enough to go up 47 spots. And the list is made with the current accomplishments not future possible accomplishments. With 3 rings in 2003, he was still at 59. These lists make absolutely no sense.
Yes, it is enough to go up by that much. He was jumbled in with players that had similar accomplishments. Once Kobe did more, he obviously shot up. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Most people here think Kobe is 10-20. Even haters say he's 20-30 at worst, they're on crack but yeah he obviously has a case to be rated that high.

6 years makes a big difference. 6 years ago LeBron was a rookie and still raw.

[BallersTalk]

Yes, it is enough to go up by that much. He was jumbled in with players that had similar accomplishments. Once Kobe did more, he obviously shot up. Doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Most people here think Kobe is 10-20. Even haters say he's 20-30 at worst, they're on crack but yeah he obviously has a case to be rated that high.

6 years makes a big difference. 6 years ago LeBron was a rookie and still raw.
Obviously not understanding my point.

[crisoner]

Slam really made a boo boo not putting Hakeem in the top 10.

[Roundball_Rock]

Dennis Rodman has magically jumped from #69 to #48 in retirement.

Bill Clinton jumped from #21 to #15 in retirement during basically that same period. This is how historical rankings work. People are always being reevaluated. You would think someone with an Abe Lincoln gimmick would understand this. :oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Bill Clinton jumped from #21 to #15 in retirement during basically that same period. This is how historical rankings work. People are always being reevaluated. You would think someone with an Abe Lincoln gimmick would understand this. :oldlol:

No. That be unwarranted. Unless he be underrated in 2003, or the talent has become worse, the entire list be crap to all but the mentally ill such as thou. SLAM be a terrible place for objectivity.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow. So you have no understanding of how historical figures are evaluated. I am disappointed, "Abe Lincoln." Quick example: there was a lot of talk about Abe being a racist in 2009. There was not in 1989. Why the change?

Underrated white players? I defend Dirk. He is a top-tier player and the best PF in the game right now. He is very underrated here.

[IInvented]

Kobe didn't win a single title between 2003 and 2009. How did he go from 59 to 12? 1 MVP, 2 scoring titles = 47 spots?

It's called: dickriding at its finest... :oldlol:

[L.Kizzle]

Why is Alex English not top 50?
Cause he's not a top 50 player All-Time.

[NBASTATMAN]

Uh, he has a good point.

Duncan has 4 rings but one of them came during a shortened season with skewed playoff rankings. A lot of bizarre things happened in the playoffs that year, the 8th seed for example made it to the NBA finals, you think this is a freak accident? The rankings and homecourt was messed up. Lakers in fact were probably hurt the most that year as Shaq usually plays best near the end of the season (when he is finally in shape) and Kobe was improving on a month by month basis (still young). That single year probably has the biggest asterisk beside it than any other one.

The second biggest asterisk in league history? Possibly the ring in '07 because the direct action of the league decided the series, when it was clearly in poor judgment to do so. That was the championship deciding series too.

So let me correct some things for you:

Duncan has 2 titles and 2* titles.
Duncan has 2 Finals MVP and 1* Finals MVP.

Kobe btw was clearly option 1B (1A in some cases) on the '01 Lakers team and in fact was the MVP of the most important series, against the best team in the league (Spurs). In that series, Shaq had 27/13/2/1 on 54%. Kobe had 33/7/7/2 on 52% (higher offensive efficiency due to 3s and FT%, and closed out the games). Saying Shaq won Finals MVP is pretty arbitrary when Kobe was arguably the MVP of the team through rounds 1-3 and especially through the most important series that year.


ROUNDROCK AND FATAL ARE BOTH WRONG.. So you want to put a asterisk on A title... How about this years title.. The Celtics win this again if KG is not hurt.. The lakers first title comes with duncan out, their second when the spurs second best scorer is hurt, and the lakers third with peja hurt.. You can also bring out the officiating in 2000 or 2002... Their is no logical laker fan that thinks kobe should be place higher than Duncan... None....

Kobe will be anywhere from 12-16 after they win the title... Laker fans will argue that he is better and that is fine with me.. As long as he is not put over Duncan... That would be a joke... GOODNIGHT..

[jmill]

The Celtics win this again if KG is not hurt.

Meh, they won in the finals when LA didn't have Bynum/Ariza, they went 0-2 against LA with Bynum/Ariza.

Might help if they win some games against the current LA team if people keep wanting to make this claim.

Guess we'll find out next year though.

[NBASTATMAN]

Another fact people seem to miss is that Duncan had a great team for many years in his prime. Kobe has only had help in his prime for only 1.5 years (taken to finals and championships both times). When you combine Kobe's offensive edge (wasn't it oldschool who said offense is like 70% of the game and by far makes more impact than defense?), Duncan's asterisks and the "what if" factor (as Roundball likes to say)...Kobe has the edge.

Kobe is actually getting very close to passing Hakeem too.

Hakeem

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 27.3
Seasons with PER over 24: 8
Championships: 2 (one with Jordan retired)
Finals MVP: 2
Prime playoff stats ('93-'96): 29/11/4.5 and 3.7 blks, 1.6 stl
Prime regular season stats ('92-'96): 27/12/3.5 on 51% and 3.6 blks, 1.7 stl.
All NBA: 6X first, 3X second, 3X third
All defensive teams: 5X first, 4X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 2

Kobe

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 28.0
Seasons with PER over 24: 6
Championships: 4
Finals MVP: 1
Prime playoff stats ('06-'09): 30/6/5 on 47%
Prime Regular season stats ('05-'09): 31/5/6 on 46% (1.6 stl, .5 blk)
All NBA: 6X first, 2X second, 2X third
All defensive teams: 6X first, 2X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 0

All of this stuff is arguable right now, but after another ring it won't be. Dude is taking down legend after legend every season.


:oldlol:


Hakeem is miles ahead of kobe on the defensive side.. Not even close...

HEY I THINK YOU SHOULD ALSO USE DEFENSIVE RATING.. That would make Hakeem easily the better player..

[D-Rose]

ROUNDROCK AND FATAL ARE BOTH WRONG.. So you want to put a asterisk on A title... How about this years title.. The Celtics win this again if KG is not hurt.. The lakers first title comes with duncan out, their second when the spurs second best scorer is hurt, and the lakers third with peja hurt.. You can also bring out the officiating in 2000 or 2002... Their is no logical laker fan that thinks kobe should be place higher than Duncan... None....

Kobe will be anywhere from 12-16 after they win the title... Laker fans will argue that he is better and that is fine with me.. As long as he is not put over Duncan... That would be a joke... GOODNIGHT..
Lakers were 2-0 this year and both teams were healthy each time except LA didn't have Bynum when they were on the road and WON.

[Duncan21formvp]

ROUNDROCK AND FATAL ARE BOTH WRONG.. So you want to put a asterisk on A title... How about this years title.. The Celtics win this again if KG is not hurt.. The lakers first title comes with duncan out, their second when the spurs second best scorer is hurt, and the lakers third with peja hurt.. You can also bring out the officiating in 2000 or 2002... Their is no logical laker fan that thinks kobe should be place higher than Duncan... None....

Kobe will be anywhere from 12-16 after they win the title... Laker fans will argue that he is better and that is fine with me.. As long as he is not put over Duncan... That would be a joke... GOODNIGHT..
:rockon: :cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

Meh, they won in the finals when LA didn't have Bynum/Ariza, they went 0-2 against LA with Bynum/Ariza.

Might help if they win some games against the current LA team if people keep wanting to make this claim.

Guess we'll find out next year though.


True and the lakers won in 2000 without having to face duncan, and 01 with the spurs second best scorer hurt and in 02 with Peja out.. I haven't even written about the refs...

[NBASTATMAN]

Lakers were 2-0 this year and both teams were healthy each time except LA didn't have Bynum when they were on the road and WON.

That is a joke stat.. DID YOU REALIZE THAT THE MAGIC WERE 2-0 OVER THE LAKERS THIS YEAR BEFORE YOU WROTE THAT? doubt it..

[L.Kizzle]

Meh, they won in the finals when LA didn't have Bynum/Ariza, they went 0-2 against LA with Bynum/Ariza.

Might help if they win some games against the current LA team if people keep wanting to make this claim.

Guess we'll find out next year though.
Rockets were without T-Mac, Deke and Yao for the last 4 games. You can say this nonsense any season for any series ...

[D-Rose]

True and the lakers won in 2000 without having to face duncan, and 01 with the spurs second best scorer hurt and in 02 with Peja out.. I haven't even written about the refs...
My god. Every year there are injuries. Injuries could have changed the course of basketball history as we know it.

Duncan is lucky Ewing was out?

Hakeem was lucky Jordan was out? (not injury)

Seriously, injuries are a part of the game, you live with it. There are probably very few years when every elite or competetive team is fully healthy.

Lakers would have a better record and would have had less trouble in the playoffs if Bynum didn't get hurt again. But he did, and no one can do anything about it. you play through it.

[NBASTATMAN]

My god. Every year there are injuries. Injuries could have changed the course of basketball history as we know it.

Duncan is lucky Ewing was out?

Hakeem was lucky Jordan was out? (not injury)

Seriously, injuries are a part of the game, you live with it. There are probably very few years when every elite or competetive team is fully healthy.

Lakers would have a better record and would have had less trouble in the playoffs if Bynum didn't get hurt again. But he did, and no one can do anything about it. you play through it.


FINE.. I have no problems with giving the lakers their due.. They deserve it... But youhave laker fans putting asterisks on SPURS titles.. When the Lakers clearly have had much more REF SUPPORT during their title wins... Fatal is putting asterisks on the SPURS titles so we should do that with all of the lakers ones...

Not my idea ... I think teams are lucky to win titles and that is why injuries and everything else come to play..

[NBASTATMAN]

True Top 10...When you add in Both Ends of the Floor and Greatness, Accolades, exc...

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. KAJ
4. Duncan
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Magic
8. Wilt
9. Russel
10.Moses Malone

11. Kobe...If Lakers close out...Kobe will move up, 4 Championships/Finals MVP...All Star, All NBA, All Defensive, PER Peak and avg.....

IMO....

Good list but I would put hondo over kobe.. Hondo won 8 titles with two different group of celtics.. Great defender and offensive player.. He sacrificed his numbers for titles... I also think mj and hakeem are the two best two way player I have ever seen.. Not only a opinion but PER'S AND DEFENSIVE RATINGS ALSO show this...

[L.Kizzle]

FINE.. I have no problems with giving the lakers their due.. They deserve it... But youhave laker fans putting asterisks on SPURS titles.. When the Lakers clearly have had much more REF SUPPORT during their title wins... Fatal is putting asterisks on the SPURS titles so we should do that with all of the lakers ones...

Not my idea ... I think teams are lucky to win titles and that is why injuries and everything else come to play..
What if Zeke wasn't injured in 88?
What if Magic and B Scott weren't injured in 89?
What if Amare wasn't injured in 06?

[NBASTATMAN]

What if Zeke wasn't injured in 88?
What if Magic and B Scott weren't injured in 89?
What if Amare wasn't injured in 06?


True.. I don't think asterisks can be put on titles... Teams are either lucky enough to get them or not...

[jmill]

Rockets were without T-Mac, Deke and Yao for the last 4 games. You can say this nonsense any season for any series ...

That's cool, it's a nice moral victory for them that they won 2 games without Yao, but the Rockets were 1-6 this year against the Lakers with Yao. Maybe they'll be better next year, but they didn't prove it this year.

The Lakers did prove they were better than a healthy Celtics and Rockets team this year in the games they played though.


True and the lakers won in 2000 without having to face duncan, and 01 with the spurs second best scorer hurt and in 02 with Peja out.. I haven't even written about the refs...

This has no relevance to what I just said.

[zabuza666]

Another fact people seem to miss is that Duncan had a great team for many years in his prime. Kobe has only had help in his prime for only 1.5 years (taken to finals and championships both times). When you combine Kobe's offensive edge (wasn't it oldschool who said offense is like 70% of the game and by far makes more impact than defense?), Duncan's asterisks and the "what if" factor (as Roundball likes to say)...Kobe has the edge.

Kobe is actually getting very close to passing Hakeem too.

Hakeem

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 27.3
Seasons with PER over 24: 8
Championships: 2 (one with Jordan retired)
Finals MVP: 2
Prime playoff stats ('93-'96): 29/11/4.5 and 3.7 blks, 1.6 stl
Prime regular season stats ('92-'96): 27/12/3.5 on 51% and 3.6 blks, 1.7 stl.
All NBA: 6X first, 3X second, 3X third
All defensive teams: 5X first, 4X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 2

Kobe

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 28.0
Seasons with PER over 24: 6
Championships: 4
Finals MVP: 1
Prime playoff stats ('06-'09): 30/6/5 on 47%
Prime Regular season stats ('05-'09): 31/5/6 on 46% (1.6 stl, .5 blk)
All NBA: 6X first, 2X second, 2X third
All defensive teams: 6X first, 2X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 0

All of this stuff is arguable right now, but after another ring it won't be. Dude is taking down legend after legend every season.


:oldlol:

Lol I love how you intentionally miss Kobe's playoff FG%. Also you're a homer dude, stop hiding it. Everyone knows.

[D-Rose]

Lol I love how you intentionally miss Kobe's playoff FG%. Also you're a homer dude, stop hiding it. Everyone knows.
Yes, let's compare the FG% of a SG to a Center! :oldlol:

[zabuza666]

Wow. So you have no understanding of how historical figures are evaluated. I am disappointed, "Abe Lincoln." Quick example: there was a lot of talk about Abe being a racist in 2009. There was not in 1989. Why the change?

Underrated white players? I defend Dirk. He is a top-tier player and the best PF in the game right now. He is very underrated here.

Because of changing social values? But that's completely related to bball right. :rolleyes:

****ing moron

[brantonli]

Kobe is actually getting very close to passing Hakeem too.

Hakeem

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 27.3
Seasons with PER over 24: 8
Championships: 2 (one with Jordan retired)
Finals MVP: 2
Prime playoff stats ('93-'96): 29/11/4.5 and 3.7 blks, 1.6 stl
Prime regular season stats ('92-'96): 27/12/3.5 on 51% and 3.6 blks, 1.7 stl.
All NBA: 6X first, 3X second, 3X third
All defensive teams: 5X first, 4X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 2

Kobe

Career PER: 23.6
Best season PER: 28.0
Seasons with PER over 24: 6
Championships: 4
Finals MVP: 1
Prime playoff stats ('06-'09): 30/6/5 on 47%
Prime Regular season stats ('05-'09): 31/5/6 on 46% (1.6 stl, .5 blk)
All NBA: 6X first, 2X second, 2X third
All defensive teams: 6X first, 2X second
MVP: 1
DPOY: 0

All of this stuff is arguable right now, but after another ring it won't be. Dude is taking down legend after legend every season.


:oldlol:

I don't believe this, does Kobe really have more All-defensive 1st team awards than HAKEEM FREAKIN' OLAJUWON?! It's a travesty.....You also forgot to mention Hakeem is 1st all time in blocks and 7th in steals. Just thought I would mention that.

Also, did you have to put a (one with Jordan retired) next to Hakeem's championships? How about a (Three as a sidekick to Shaq) next to Kobe's championships?

[D-Rose]

Because of changing social values? But that's completely related to bbal right. :rolleyes:

****ing moron
Did you read the whole thread before you posted that? It was a comparison to show how lists work sometimes.

[zabuza666]

Did you read the whole thread before you posted that? It was a comparison to show how lists work sometimes.

No it wasn't, it's a completely irrelevant point which has no relation to the topic being discussed. The notion of Abe Lincoln being a racist is due to changing social values about racism/definition of racism/acts that constitute racist acts & possibly the emergence of new information regarding the issue. None of that relates to basketball in anyway. Shut the **** up.

[D-Rose]

No it wasn't, it's a completely irrelevant point which has no relation to the topic being discussed. The notion of Abe Lincoln being a racist is due to changing social values about racism/definition of racism/acts that constitute racist acts & possibly the emergence of new information regarding the issue. None of that relates to basketball in anyway. Shut the **** up.
HA!

Some guy asked why was Kobe ranked 59 some years ago but top 15 now. Obviously since he's done more.

Then Abe said why did Rodman go from 60's to 40's.

Then Roundball said as time goes on, there are different perceptions about players. He compared it to Bill Clinton being ranked higher now than like 5 years before or something like that. Then Roundball said the Lincoln thing to show perception of people changing over time as a cause of people going up and down on all time lists, be it basketball or not.

This is what happens when you don't read the damn thread :oldlol:

[Ken_Force_One]

Besides Mj....oscar Is The Most Deserving Of The Top 5............average A Triple Double For An Enitre Season As A Guard.....no One Will Evvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Do That Again Everrrrr...........that Is The Greatest Stat Line In Nba History.

[D-Rose]

Besides Mj....oscar Is The Most Deserving Of The Top 5............average A Triple Double For An Enitre Season As A Guard.....no One Will Evvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Do That Again Everrrrr...........that Is The Greatest Stat Line In Nba History.
Indeed it was a great statline. But there were more rebounds to get back in the day, so guards got more than say today.

Oscar can't be Top 5 because he never won a title as the #1 option. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird are ahead of him no matter what.

[brantonli]

HA!

Some guy asked why was Kobe ranked 59 some years ago but top 15 now. Obviously since he's done more.

Then Abe said why did Rodman go from 60's to 40's.

Then Roundball said as time goes on, there are different perceptions about players. He compared it to Bill Clinton being ranked higher now than like 5 years before or something like that. Then Roundball said the Lincoln thing to show perception of people changing over time as a cause of people going up and down on all time lists, be it basketball or not.

This is what happens when you don't read the damn thread :oldlol:


I feel that there's a huge difference between comparing politicians to players. I mean, even Nixon himself, after he resigned, still did a lot of political work (unofficially) which raised him in the eyes of many. Just because presidents retire from office doesn't mean they can't continue to do stuff.

On the other hand, basketball players, once they have retired, that's it. They can't do anything more to tarnish or augment their basketball accomplishment. Therein, I feel, lies the inherent flaw in comparing politicians to players.

[jmill]

Besides Mj....oscar Is The Most Deserving Of The Top 5............average A Triple Double For An Enitre Season As A Guard.....no One Will Evvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Do That Again Everrrrr...........that Is The Greatest Stat Line In Nba History.

Well obv no one will do it now, teams in that era averaged anywhere from 112-118 ppg as opposed to 95-100 now. Game was just different overall.

[Ken_Force_One]

Indeed it was a great statline. But there were more rebounds to get back in the day, so guards got more than say today.

Oscar can't be Top 5 because he never won a title as the #1 option. MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird are ahead of him no matter what.

SORRY BUD.....BUT IN THE REAL WORLD........GREATNESS IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE NUMBER OF CHAMPIONSHIPS U HAVE.....IF THAT WAS THE CASE U WOULD BE SAYIN KEVIN McHALE WAS A BETTER PF THAN BARKLEY, MALONE, ETC.GREATNESS IS BASED ON PLAYERS OUTPUT FOR THE TEAM THEY WERE ON.....IF IT WAS BASED ON CHAMPIONSHIPS THE CELTICS OF THE 60'S AND 70'S WOULD BE THE TOP 50 THEMSELVES...

[D-Rose]

SORRY BUD.....BUT IN THE REAL WORLD........GREATNESS IS NOT DETERMINED BY THE NUMBER OF CHAMPIONSHIPS U HAVE.....IF THAT WAS THE CASE U WOULD BE SAYIN KEVIN McHALE WAS A BETTER PF THAN BARKLEY, MALONE, ETC.GREATNESS IS BASED ON PLAYERS OUTPUT FOR THE TEAM THEY WERE ON.....IF IT WAS BASED ON CHAMPIONSHIPS THE CELTICS OF THE 60'S AND 70'S WOULD BE THE TOP 50 THEMSELVES...
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Then I guess people just think Jordan is the GOAT for the Dunks not the 6 rings as the leader?

Rings as a leader are a HUGE factor in putting a player in the top 10 all time.

you can have all the stats you want but if you don't win you're nothing.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Also, did you have to put a (one with Jordan retired) next to Hakeem's championships? How about a (Three as a sidekick to Shaq) next to Kobe's championships?

Exactly, just stop trying with them. As much as you want to put these losers in their place, do what I do and put them on ignore.

Kobe is nowhere near Hakeem and Duncan on the all time list. By his own words(Fatal 9), an asterisk has to be placed on the Lakers 2002 title since it was direct league action that allowed them to beat Sac.

Fact of the matter is, there are no asterisks when it comes to championships, and obviously, Kobe's 3 rings as a sidekick are not = to Duncan's 4 as the main man.

[hotsizzle]

lmao at Oscar being at 5. He really is the most overrated player in NBA history

[xcesswee]

I know that whoever has Kobe > than Hakeem or Duncan is a flat out moron and doesn't understand a thing about basketball rolf. So you're telling me if Hakeem, Duncan (two of the greatest big men to play the game), and kobe were all in a draft, you would pick kobe ahead of hakeem and duncan? Lol sorry but Duncan and ESPCECIALLY Hakeem's defensive impact makes them that much better than kobe.

[chitownsfinest]

LMAO @ these clowns trying to downplay The Dream and Duncan to fit their agendas

Hakeem literally had no help from 1987-1993 since Ralph Sampson pretty much fell off with injuries and the Rockets were full of druggies in the mid 80s. What the guy did in 1994 is almost amazing. He took one of the weakest supporting casts to ever win a championship under his belt and was the guy that anchored them on both ends of the floor. He took a team that had Otis Freakin Thorpe as the second best player to the finals and then proceeded to shut down Patrick Ewing and hold him to under 40% shooting, not to mention the clutch block on John Starks. In 1995, he had a much better supporting cast but still put up 33/10/5 per game in the playoffs with nearly 3 blocks and a steal per game as well. He also had to fight through 4 50+ win teams without having homecourt in a single effing round. I don't even have to mention his dominance of David Robinson either. Sure, he only ended up with only two titles for his career but he had weak supporting casts from 1987-1993. Not to mention, him helping lead the Rockets to the 86 finals and upsetting the might Lakers. He also dominated the Celtics front line in many games in that series. You want stats? Hakeem in top 11 in points/rebounds/steals/blocks.

i don't feel like explaining Duncan right now but he has had two all time great finals performances in 99 and 03, and lets not forget what he did from 2001-2004 with limited help and no fellow all star: 2 MVP's, one Finals MVP, and leading the Spurs to 232 wins in that span. Don't give me that Robinson BS because D-Rob was washed up at that point. He had no fellow 17+ ppg scorer in those years and the best perimeter players he had was a young, undeveloped Tony Parker and Derek Freakin Anderson.

[nbastatus]

great list.

[magi]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Larry Bird
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Bill Russell
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Oscar Robertson

On the threshold are guys like Moses Malone, Kobe Bryant, Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, Jerry West and Julius Erving, IMO.

I think if Kobe wins this year, he could pass Oscar. If he creates a dynasty in LA (say wins three straight titles). He could go as high as 8th All-Time.

[momo]

Changed his hair color.

Win comment, repped.

~~~~~

Did slam state what criteria they used? If fan votes count or... whatever? It might explain a lot.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to L.Kizzle again.

[Toizumi]

I haven't read any responses in this thread. Just wanted to state that that list is terrible. A lost of posters on ISH have made better ones. And whatsup with slam anyway. Who makes these lists?! How did, according to them, kobe go from 59 (way too low) a few years back to top 10 (too high) now?

[jrong]

Steve Nash at fifty? I think they forgot to tack on a zero at the end of that. Or two....

[KubiliusF]

Reading these forums seems like no white player shall ever been on greatest anything lists , there allways are better african-american players.

[Big#50]

1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Kareem
4.Duncan
5.Hakeem
6.Shaq
7.Wilt
8.Bird
9.Kobe
10.West

[Renegar]

What the top 15 should look like:
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Bird
7. Hakeem
8. Russell
9. Duncan
10. (Barring an epic choke job) Kobe
11. Oscar
12. Moses Malone
13. Elgin Baylor
14. West
15. Karl Malone

Shaquille and Hakeem and Duncan ahead of Kobe? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

The list closest to reality is:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. You can make arguments for about 7 other guys here

[thejumpa]

Shaquille and Hakeem and Duncan ahead of Kobe? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

The list closest to reality is:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. You can make arguments for about 7 other guys here

Get the hell out of the thread. I'm not going to insult Lakers fans by calling you one but it's obvious you are a relative of Kobe or something....

[Mr Know It All]

lol @ Steve Nash cracking the top 50 while someone like Dirk is snubbed. Shows what two bogus MVPs can get you even if you were an average to above average point guard who played terrible defence most of your career.

[Rake2204]

Did slam state what criteria they used? If fan votes count or... whatever? It might explain a lot.

SLAM's criteria is listed at the top of this thread's 8th page.

[xcesswee]

Get the hell out of the thread. I'm not going to insult Lakers fans by calling you one but it's obvious you are a relative of Kobe or something....

Don't get riled up. He's a troll. He makes these posts so he sees people like you, bruce, or Oldskool get all crazy.

[Duncan21formvp]

The statement stands, regardless of whether it was a Shaq or Kobe thread. Duncan won with arguably the worst supporting cast ever in 2003.



Finals MVP's. :roll:

So you cannot come up with a clear criteria either (as any wise man knows no one can). Kareem won 4 rings as the top player on his team and one more MVP than Jordan. Kareem is also the all-time leading scorer. So MJ's two rings as the best player>1 more MVP and being the all-time leading scorer? Wow, that is clear cut! No, it is a subjective assessment.

Russell has 11 rings, no? 11>6? He is arguably the GOAT defender. Face it: with Jordan vs. Russell you are placing an importance on offense in ranking MJ several spots above Russell. I did the same in placing Kobe one spot higher than Duncan. :oldlol:

OldSchoolBBall, is there any tenet of conventional wisdom that you do not adhere to?



Thanks for the compliment! :cheers:



As usual, great post, Fatal. :applause: The funny--or is it sad?--thing is these guys are so brainwashed by conventional wisdom that they fail to recognize the difference between fact and opinion or between objective criteria and subjective criteria. To them Duncan>Kobe is as factual as the sky being blue.

As to 1999, it is no coincidence that the only time a #8 seed made it to the NBA finals occurred during that "season."



Yes, Shaq averaged 1-1.5 ppg more in two of the three years. Amazing!

kareem has 2 finals MVP's while MJ has 6.

Kareem got 6 league mvp's and got one on a 40-42 team that didn't make the playoffs.

Here are the MVP shares.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


1. Michael Jordan* 8.138
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 6.203
3. Larry Bird* 5.693
4. Magic Johnson* 5.129
5. Bill Russell* 4.827
6. Shaquille O'Neal 4.380
7. Karl Malone 4.296
8. Wilt Chamberlain* 4.269
9. Tim Duncan 4.205
10. David Robinson* 3.123


Jordan has the most career playoff points despite playing 50 less games than Kareem in the playoffs. Also MJ has the highest scoring average in the season, playoffs and finals and the highest PER in the season and playoffs and also the most win shares in the playoffs and OWS.

[Tuvi]

Jason kidd over Kevin Garnett????

[Juges8932]

D-Wade? Terrible list.

[lakers_forever]

I wrote this post in another thread that died. I will post it again here.
It's a question for all Bill Russell haters who claim he is not even one of the top 10 players ever.


Can you all please say to me what could Bill Russell have done differently in his career to be considered greater?
If he had better PPG (like 8 more ppg), better FG % while winning less 5,6 or 7 titles, would he move up in your rankings? Or you guys don't give winning titles any value at all?
I mean, Russell (since his college days) did everything necessary to win. He played the exact way his team needed to win titles. He had great teammates with great offensive game. His team needed leadership, post presence, defense and altruism from their Captain and Russell did all that for them.
The guy was not just a great defensive player, he was the best defensive player, probably ever. Some say he average close to 6 bpg and 3 spg. And he was the one of the best rebounders ever.
He wasn't just a member of a great team. He was the leader and best player of that team. They needed him to win all those titles. Proving that, the Celtics (who had won the title with Russell in 1969) missed the playoffs in 1970 duo to Russell's retirement.

Just How can the best player on the team that won 11 titles not be a top 10 player ever???

There's simply no way.

[GP_20]

:roll: at Gary Payton being so low at #38

[Roundball_Rock]

kareem has 2 finals MVP's while MJ has 6.


:roll: Parker and Cedric Maxwell combine for as many finals MVP's as Kareem. Further proof that award is a joke.

Kareem won a MVP on a 40 win team. What does that tell you? He took a bunch of scrubs and made them at least respectable. Kareem's MVP vote plummeted after Magic arrived. We all know the NBA business plan in the 80's was all about Magic and Bird with Jordan being their successor in the late 80's and 90's. Now the business plan revolves around Lebron, hence him getting BS consideration for DPOY and on the first all-defensive team.

[nbastatus]

Shaquille and Hakeem and Duncan ahead of Kobe? :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

The list closest to reality is:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. You can make arguments for about 7 other guys here
no wonder people hate kobe.

[Disaprine]

if he wins the ring, kobe is defiantly at number 12
shaq should be at 7
hakeem is way to low, he should be at number 6
duncan should be at number 11
to many corections to make but that just saying a few.......

[Shepseskaf]

Steve Nash at fifty? I think they forgot to tack on a zero at the end of that. Or two....
:applause:

Its funny how they tried to sneak Nash in the back door in the last spot. Who is pushing this media agenda to make him appear to be one of the greatest player? I'm not even surprised anymore at the ridiculous lengths people will go through to give him undue props -- just like his undeserved two MVPs.

[JM720]

Kenny Smith just said on NBA TV he has Kobe in his top 10 if he wins this year and even is a head of Hakeem.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Looks about right. I'd put Hakeem above Kobe and Kobe above Jerry West, but I don't have any major beefs with it.

As far as Rodman's movement in the rankings, my guess is that they have a higher opinion of him now since they only really remember the Bulls and Pistons years now and have forgotten about the Lakers, Mavs, and Spurs years, which probably damaged opinions of him a bit.