Kobe Bryant is now officially a top 10 player of all time!

[1987_Lakers]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Jerry West moves down to #11.

[Papaya Petee]

I agree, but talking about the top 10 itself, I personally think Kareem should hop to number 2.

[1987_Lakers]

I agree, but talking about the top 10 itself, I personally think Kareem should hop to number 2.

It's definitely arguable.

[Bodhi]

You can debate the order all day, but those 10 are the greatest ever.

[Fatal9]

Top 3 aren't really arguable...it's Wilt/Kareem/Jordan.

Kobe is now "officially" top 10. Anyone denying it at this point is either a hater or doesn't have proper perspective in making these lists. He'll likely finish in the top 5.

[KobeRules24]

Great thread, kobe is definitely a top 10 player....i'm so happy right now lakers baby!!!!!

[zabuza666]

Top 3 aren't really arguable...it's Wilt/Kareem/Jordan.

Kobe is now "officially" top 10. Anyone denying it at this point is either a hater or doesn't have proper perspective in making these lists. He'll likely finish in the top 5.

You'd put Kobe over Shaq?

[Bodhi]

You'd put Kobe over Shaq?

Kobe has the potential to finish above Shaq. He's not there yet, but his style of play will age well and the Lakers have the right players to stay contenders for a long time.

[drewdizzle]

:applause: :rockon:

[branslowski]

You can debate the order all day, but those 10 are the greatest ever.

CO-SIGN

Although....Moses Malone has a Gripe....I'll put Kobe slightly Above Moses, but...

[JustinJDW]

Kobe is not Top 10. Winning only 1 Ring as the Leader does not make you Top 10.

And Kareem is #2. #5 is way too low. The guy has 6 Rings, 6 MVP's and is a 19x All-Star. #5 is way too low. He is a Top 3 Lock.

[Heilige]

Top 3 aren't really arguable...it's Wilt/Kareem/Jordan.

Kobe is now "officially" top 10. Anyone denying it at this point is either a hater or doesn't have proper perspective in making these lists. He'll likely finish in the top 5.



In your opinion, what would Kobe have to accomplish to be higher than top 5?

[FashionIssues]

there are 5 lakers in there with 20 chips

top 10. 5 lakers

[NBASTATMAN]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant




Jerry West moves down to #11.

Where is MOSES MALONE, HONDO WITH 8 TITLES AND VERY GOOD STATS, DR J.. Where is Oscar robertson? I think kobe is anywhere 12-15... Kobe has 1 MVP and 1 Finals MVP... Kobe's stats are good but not great and he has played with great talent in his career.. Kobe will wind up anywhere from 5-7..
Last years finals really hurt Kobe's ability to land any better than that.. Still give credit to the one guy who eats, breathes and probably ****s basketball

kobefreakingbryant... :rant

[Lebron23]

Kobe is not Top 10. Winning only 1 Ring as the Leader does not make you Top 10.

2x NBA Scoring Champion
1x NBA League MVP
1x NBA Finals MVP
Perennial member of the NBA All Defensive and NBA First Team


That's a top 10 player of all time. Stop hating on Kobe Bryant because the guy is the 3rd best player in the Post Jordan Era.

[Fatal9]

You'd put Kobe over Shaq?
If he wins two more? He is in the top 4. We are looking at 6 rings in the modern era (achieved only by the GOAT), statistics, awards etc. There won't really be a case against it, unless your criteria heavily factors peak play (in which case Shaq is top 4 for you).

[JustinJDW]

That's a top 10 player of all time. Stop hating on Kobe Bryant because the guy is the 3rd best player in the Post Jordan Era.I do agree with him being #3 since Jordan, but I don't agree with him being Top 10.

[Duncan21formvp]

I can admit that Kobe has sealed up the 10th spot. The only other player that can argue for it is Moses Malone.

[Xsatyr]

Top 3 aren't really arguable...it's Wilt/Kareem/Jordan.

Kobe is now "officially" top 10. Anyone denying it at this point is either a hater or doesn't have proper perspective in making these lists. He'll likely finish in the top 5.I do not see him passing Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, Mj, Magic, Larry Bird, Wilt and Russell. You can argue with Hakeem if he wins another ring even though I still think he is better. But definitely not making top 5.

[Fatal9]

:roll: at anyone arguing players like Dr. J, Oscar, Malone at this point. Havlichek is top 10, really? :oldlol:

Quit trolling.

[NBASTATMAN]

In your opinion, what would Kobe have to accomplish to be higher than top 5?


I think the fact that he has been outplayed in the biggest of series hurts Kobe... Not once but twice... 04 AND 08...

mj, kareem , and russell have titles in college, pros and olympics..

Kareem 3 college and 6 pro
russell has 11 titles and I think college titles as well
MJ has 6 titles in his first 13 seasons and 1 college title

I didn't even get into the MVP'S or College player of the year awards..

[rs98762001]

I do not see him passing Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, Mj, Magic, Larry Bird, Wilt and Russell.
I think he could certainly equal or pass Shaq and Duncan if he wins another couple of rings as the centerpiece of a team.

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: at anyone arguing players like Dr. J, Oscar, Malone at this point. Havlichek is top 10, really? :oldlol:

Quit trolling.


Bran and Catch both laker fans have also written they believe Kobe is 10-15 after this title.. So FATAL stop your crap and admit to being a stan.. I mean fan.. lol

[Fatal9]

I do not see him passing Shaq, Duncan, Kareem, MJ, Larry Bird, Wilt and Russell.
Kobe with another ring almost seals it in terms of passing Duncan. Another one will put him over Shaq, Bird and Russell. Nothing he can realistically do can put him over Kareem and Wilt (who are #2 and #3 respectively).

[Xsatyr]

I think he could certainly equal or pass Shaq and Duncan if he wins another couple of rings as the centerpiece of a team.I just don't think it will happen but crazier things have happened.

[NBASTATMAN]

I do agree with him being #3 since Jordan, but I don't agree with him being Top 10.

Yea shaq and duncan and then kobe...

[Fatal9]

Bran and Catch both laker fans have also written they believe Kobe is 10-15 after this title.. So FATAL stop your crap and admit to being a stan.. I mean fan.. lol
Okay? Doesn't mean sh*t. There is NO argument now, Kobe is top 10. Eat it.

[NBASTATMAN]

If he wins two more? He is in the top 4. We are looking at 6 rings in the modern era (achieved only by the GOAT), statistics, awards etc. There won't really be a case against it, unless your criteria heavily factors peak play (in which case Shaq is top 4 for you).


If kobe's wins 2 more than maybe 5-7... Wilt has the titles and the ridiculous stats..

[Kingwillball]

Good list but since Lebron is already better than Kobe he is well on his way to being in the top 5 and maybe the best ever depending how many titles he wins. I am assuming this lists hinges on titles right and not just pure talent and greatness individually ?

[Xsatyr]

Kobe with another ring almost seals it in terms of passing Duncan. Another one will put him over Shaq, Bird and Russell. Nothing he can realistically do can put him over Kareem and Wilt (who are #2 and #3 respectively).I disagree with that, Shaq has 3 finals mvp. And one more will definitely not put him over Russell.

[NBASTATMAN]

Okay? Doesn't mean sh*t. There is NO argument now, Kobe is top 10. Eat it.


TO you .. NOT ME.. Will he be top 10 at one point? YES..

[JustinJDW]

:roll: at anyone arguing players like Dr. J, Oscar, Malone at this point. Havlichek is top 10, really? :oldlol:

Quit trolling.Oscar, Dr. J and Moses Malone are all better players than Kobe Bryant. It's just that they never played with one of the greatest Centers of All-Time.

[Xsatyr]

Good list but since Lebron is already better than Kobe he is well on his way to being in the top 5 and maybe the best ever depending how many titles he wins. I am assuming this lists hinges on titles right and not just pure talent and greatness individually ?Lol oh boy...

[Killer_Instinct]

Truth.com The man is a living legend.

[Sir Charles]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Oscar, Dr. J and Moses Malone are all better players than Kobe Bryant. It's just that they never played with a Top 3 Center of All-Time.

:roll:
Dr.J and Moses played TOGETHER. :roll:

good stuff.

[juju151111]

Bran and Catch both laker fans have also written they believe Kobe is 10-15 after this title.. So FATAL stop your crap and admit to being a stan.. I mean fan.. lol
Yea, but dont argue with faktal. Even if its 10-15 Kobe still top 10.lol

[JustinJDW]

:roll:
Dr.J and Moses played TOGETHER. :roll:

good stuff.Yeah, how does that effect my point?

What I am saying is that Kobe got to play with the Greatest Center in 20 years. People wondered if he can win without Shaq, and it took him 7 years to do it.

That's only Ring #1 as a Leader. Why do we dismiss guys like Pippen and Worthy, who have just as many Rings as Kobe? Because they are not Leaders. Kobe finally has one as a Leader. That does not make you Top 10.

[Mor'Fiyah]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:

So you don't want us to show you anything that actually counts?! Thats kind of silly...

[Toizumi]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:

yeah f*ck winng. f*ck championships. f*ck trophies.
It's about scoring and rebounding and EFF. that's what matters!! that's what we play for! NUMBERS! :rockon:

FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIL

[D-Rose]

Good list but since Lebron is already better than Kobe he is well on his way to being in the top 5 and maybe the best ever depending how many titles he wins. I am assuming this lists hinges on titles right and not just pure talent and greatness individually ?
He won't be Top 5 if he doesn't win any titles :oldlol:

[Younggrease]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:

is this some sort of math class? would like a memo on the mythodology as well?

[seanlakers]

Imaginary all-time rank is for nerds.

I'm just enjoying watching him. I hope he sticks around ;)

[D-Rose]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:
:oldlol: @ this guy

Barkley will never be Top 10 on anyone's list other than yours.

Kobe is already ahead of Barkley for sure.

Stop hating.

Stats don't mean ANYTHING if you don't win.

LeBron could go 30/7/7 his whole career but if he doesn't win a title as the #1 guy, he won't be Top 10.

[Allstar24]

You got that right...and Kobe will become a top 5 player of all time if he wins another ring and finals mvp next year.

[JustinJDW]

:oldlol: at these Laker Fans calling anybody who doesn't suck Kobe's dick a "hater".


You got that right...and Kobe will become a top 5 player of all time if he wins another ring and finals mvp next year.:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: OMFG! I am going to do with laughter!!! :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Don`t Show me MVPs, Don`t Show Me Championships, Don`t Show Me Polls, Don`t Show me Hype Opinions

Show Me Statistical Impact on why he is a Top 10

Show it...

:confusedshrug: :violin:

What? Stupid Put together win share, +/-/*/%/#/@/! type stats? That has Steve Kerr at the top of list? Per 36min * substitution pattern divided 2 Foul shots????.....Get your Impact Fraud Stats the F*ck out of here....You=Exposed for making Stupid remixed stats>>Over Winning....

Go To Your Little Stat Riddle World And

SUCK IT

[Tainted Sword]

Does this crap really matter? I'm just happy we won. :ohwell:

Kobe is awesome, though! :D

[magi]

Yeah, how does that effect my point?

What I am saying is that Kobe got to play with the Greatest Center in 20 years. People wondered if he can win without Shaq, and it took him 7 years to do it.

That's only Ring #1 as a Leader. Why do we dismiss guys like Pippen and Worthy, who have just as many Rings as Kobe? Because they are not Leaders. Kobe finally has one as a Leader. That does not make you Top 10.

You dick head, Kobe NEVER had a team around him to win a title. As soon as Pau was traded to LA, Kobe LED his team to 2 final appearances. Including one title. It took Shaquille 8-9 years to win a title.

See douche bag, you make no sense.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Every single person on ESPN has put Kobe right there in the pantheon of the greatest players ever. They stopped short of saying he was better than Jordan (which I agree with). He is definately top ten ever and nothing the haters say can really change that in the end. Their opinions are not worth the same as the analysts and former players and present players that are all giving Kobe Bryant the credit he deserves!

[Showtime]

I disagree.

[magi]

I disagree.

Oh my god the Kobe hater disagrees, what a ****ing shocker that is.

[Showtime]

[QUOTE=magi

[NBASTATMAN]

Every single person on ESPN has put Kobe right there in the pantheon of the greatest players ever. They stopped short of saying he was better than Jordan (which I agree with). He is definately top ten ever and nothing the haters say can really change that in the end. Their opinions are not worth the same as the analysts and former players and present players that are all giving Kobe Bryant the credit he deserves!


ARE THESE THE SAME ANALYSTS THAT HAD WADE AS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME AFTER THE HEAT TITLE? The truth is Kobe can only be rated when his career is over.... One thing I am sure of is he won't get anything better than 5.. Too many screwups in his legacy for that... And I do not mean the bs rape charges...

[Allstar24]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2mrz8fq.jpg

Kobe to the haters: F*ck off.

That's 4 rings right there. Kobe is now officially a top 10 player and will become top 5 if he wins another ring (or two) and the finals mvp next year. Deal with it.

[Xsatyr]

Every single person on ESPN has put Kobe right there in the pantheon of the greatest players ever. They stopped short of saying he was better than Jordan (which I agree with). He is definately top ten ever and nothing the haters say can really change that in the end. Their opinions are not worth the same as the analysts and former players and present players that are all giving Kobe Bryant the credit he deserves!Analysts are not that great, they can be the biggest homers. And there is a reason why most players can't be coaches. Kobe is definitely top 10 though imo.

[Xsatyr]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2mrz8fq.jpg

Kobe to the haters: F*ck off.

That's 4 rings right there. Kobe is now officially a top 10 player and will become top 5 if he wins another ring (or two) and the finals mvp next year. Deal with it.If he wins another two he will still be behind Duncan, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Bird and MJ. Maybe between 5-7 but nothing more unless he makes some amazing run.

[Mor'Fiyah]

I disagree.

S? Magic, Wilbon, West, Barry, Scott, just about every creditable person in basketball disagrees with you.

[JustinJDW]

I disagree.Didn't you read the Forum Rules? You are not allowed to disagree. You must such Kobe's dick to the highest extent, and if you don't, you will automatically be labeled a Kobe Hater and will be flamed and bashed until you finally agree to suck Kobe's dick to the highest extent! You have to agree! You must suck Kobe's dick!

[Mor'Fiyah]

Analysts are not that great, they can be the biggest homers. And there is a reason why most players can't be coaches. Kobe is definitely top 10 though imo.

But forum posters have all the answers right?! LOL ... based on what criteria? I think its fair to say that Magic Johnson knows a little more than you guys ever will.

[branslowski]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2mrz8fq.jpg

Kobe to the haters: F*ck off.

That's 4 rings right there. Kobe is now officially a top 10 player and will become top 5 if he wins another ring (or two) and the finals mvp next year. Deal with it.

:cheers: ...No need to argue...Just show them this...

[NBASTATMAN]

Didn't you read the Forum Rules? You are not allowed to disagree. You must such Kobe's dick to the highest extent, and if you don't, you will automatically be labeled a Kobe Hater and will be flamed and bashed until you finally agree to suck Kobe's dick to the highest extent! You have to agree! You must suck Kobe's dick!


SO TRUE.. Congrats to the true laker fans.. Some I have run into bran, catch , and jmill.. Though we have differed in opinions I believe they are true laker fans... Congrats to all you true LAKER fans..

[Mor'Fiyah]

Didn't you read the Forum Rules? You are not allowed to disagree. You must such Kobe's dick to the highest extent, and if you don't, you will automatically be labeled a Kobe Hater and will be flamed and bashed until you finally agree to suck Kobe's dick to the highest extent! You have to agree! You must suck Kobe's dick!

Oh you can disagree. You have a right to your viewpoint. As idiotic as it is. Its just that we have that much more ammunition to rub it in your faces!

[catch24]

Didn't you read the Forum Rules? You are not allowed to disagree. You must such Kobe's dick to the highest extent, and if you don't, you will automatically be labeled a Kobe Hater and will be flamed and bashed until you finally agree to suck Kobe's dick to the highest extent! You have to agree! You must suck Kobe's dick!

f up troll. Kobe top 10 NBA player PERIOD
:hammertime: :hammertime: :hammertime: :D

[Showtime]

S? Magic, Wilbon, West, Barry, Scott, just about every creditable person in basketball disagrees with you.
I actually think that's a compliment. There are a lot of morons out there and so called "experts" that fall flat on their face on analysis and educated predictions every single year.

[catch24]

SO TRUE.. Congrats to the true laker fans.. Some I have run into bran, catch , and jmill.. Though we have differed in opinions I believe they are true laker fans... Congrats to all you true LAKER fans..

Appreciate that. We just agree to disagree on certain things :cheers:

[Xsatyr]

But forum posters have all the answers right?! LOL ... based on what criteria? I think its fair to say that Magic Johnson knows a little more than you guys ever will.He a Lakers homer and everyone knows that. He would be so pissed and angered during the Rockets and Lakers series when they Lakers would lose.

[branslowski]

Tis time for the wise man to show respect at a time like this.

Alas, Bryant now be be #10 all time, but in a 3 way split with the likes of Moses Malone and the Doctor Erving. Tis shan't overlook thou as I be a Philly 76ers fan. He will NEVER catch Wilton Norman Chamberlain as the best of all time.

I Agree with Abe on this....Because I went back and foward in my mind between Moses and Kobe...Finals MVP's, League MVP's, Championships, All-NBA, All-Defensive, Gold Medal, Stats, exc, exc, with these guy's....

10. Kobe/Moses

[JustinJDW]

I actually think that's a compliment. There are a lot of morons out there and so called "experts" that fall flat on their face on analysis and educated predictions every single year.So true.

[Xsatyr]

Oh you can disagree. You have a right to your viewpoint. As idiotic as it is. Its just that we have that much more ammunition to rub it in your faces!Actually the guys who we put over Kobe have more final mvp's so we have more ammunition.

[TheAnchorman]

He should pass Hakeem and MAYBE Tim Duncan if he wins another ring and Finals MVP, but he has a ways to go to pass Shaq, Bird and Russell. Another ring in 2010 would probably make him #7-8 on that all-time list.

[YAWN]

I disagree.

im curious to hear where you would rank him. just saying i disagree could mean you feel he is #11 or that he is #45.

[D-Rose]

If Kobe isn't a Top 10 player now, then he's definetly Top 15 and will definetly be Top 10 by the end of his career. He's not done with that resume folks.

[Younggrease]

I think right now the worst you can have him is #11 all time....but he still has about 3-4 years where he could win a title and possible finals MVP. Thats a lot of chances for a lot of rings.

[NBASTATMAN]

Oh you can disagree. You have a right to your viewpoint. As idiotic as it is. Its just that we have that much more ammunition to rub it in your faces!


Kobe is the flavor of the moment.. So I will take the summer off.. Let the kobe fans have their fun.. THey deserve it.. Kobe has given them alot of heartbreak in the last couple of years... Now he has given them glory.. PROPS TO KOBE... TILL NEXT SEASON... I AM TAKING THE SUMMER OFF...

[Xsatyr]

I actually think that's a compliment. There are a lot of morons out there and so called "experts" that fall flat on their face on analysis and educated predictions every single year.Yeah Rockets were suppose to lose against Blazers according to the so called experts. Also weren't the Cavs suppose to be in the Finals this year?

[juju151111]

I Agree with Abe on this....Because I went back and foward in my mind between Moses and Kobe...Finals MVP's, League MVP's, Championships, All-NBA, All-Defensive, Gold Medal, Stats, exc, exc, with these guy's....

10. Kobe/Moses
I agree

[thejumpa]

Every single person on ESPN has put Kobe right there in the pantheon of the greatest players ever. They stopped short of saying he was better than Jordan (which I agree with). He is definately top ten ever and nothing the haters say can really change that in the end. Their opinions are not worth the same as the analysts and former players and present players that are all giving Kobe Bryant the credit he deserves!

Everybody on ESPN is caught up in the moment as well....the most sense came out of Magics' and Wilbons' mouth.

I'm not hating on Kobe but this is my honest to god opinion. BTW, I can't stand Kobe.

With this ring, he moved up a couple notches in most peoples all-time lists..ok, I give him that. Hell, he even moved up in MY list. But, what I have a serious problem with is all this top 10 stuff.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar(insert whoever you want in place of him if you want)

I find it hard to believe he has had a better career than anybody there at age 30. Will he be there when it's all said and done? hmmm can't say, but probably. I've been anti-Kobe since he came into the league as a cocky SG but honest, I realize the guy is the best we have seen at the SG since MJ. Rings don't automatically put you into top 10 either so you can't use that...

Someone let me know what I have been missing...

[magi]

If Kobe isn't a Top 10 player now, then he's definetly Top 15 and will definetly be Top 10 by the end of his career. He's not done with that resume folks.

He is only 30 years of age. Jordan accomplished like almost half of his accolades after the age of 30.

[Xsatyr]

If Kobe isn't a Top 10 player now, then he's definetly Top 15 and will definetly be Top 10 by the end of his career. He's not done with that resume folks.I think most people pretty much think he has top 10 on lock, I think he can be top 5-7 by the time his career is over. I don't see him getting much higher than that but he has some more years.

[NBASTATMAN]

Appreciate that. We just agree to disagree on certain things :cheers:


YEP .. I still don't think kobe is top 10.. lOL.. I could have swarn you also wrote the same at one point... Doesn't matter Kobe won and he deserves all the props ...:rant

[Younggrease]

I think most people pretty much he has top 10 on lock, I think he can be top 5-7. I don't see him getting much higher than that but he has some more years.

Unless the Lakers win 2 more consecutive titles then Kobe isnt getting into the top 5-7.

[chitownsfinest]

He is borderline top ten and is tied with Moses in my books.

[Xsatyr]

Unless the Lakers win 2 more consecutive titles then Kobe isnt getting into the top 5-7.2 more will garuntee him to past that. Kareem, MJ, Wilt, Russell and Duncan will still be higher. I would still put Shaq over him as well even though Kobe will have more rings. But an old Shaq helped Wade get a ring, his presence is that strong.

[Showtime]

im curious to hear where you would rank him. just saying i disagree could mean you feel he is #11 or that he is #45.
I think he has eclipsed players like Gervin, Drexler, McGrady, AI, etc and put himself into the realm of Dr J, D-Rob, West, Baylor, Robertson, Moses, etc but I don't see the argument behind how he's eclipsed those players as an individual. I think if he keeps playing well into his late 30's he may end up in the top 10, but right now I don't see how he's definitively superior as a player to guys like I mentioned.

[catch24]

YEP .. I still don't think kobe is top 10.. lOL.. I could have swarn you also wrote the same at one point... Doesn't matter Kobe won and he deserves all the props ...:rant

Nope, that was prior to the ring, now I have changed my mind. Another thing we agree to disagree on.

[Thechosen1]

lol at this retarded thread

[Mor'Fiyah]

Kobe is the flavor of the moment.. So I will take the summer off.. Let the kobe fans have their fun.. THey deserve it.. Kobe has given them alot of heartbreak in the last couple of years... Now he has given them glory.. PROPS TO KOBE... TILL NEXT SEASON... I AM TAKING THE SUMMER OFF...

Lots of heart break? I guess you could look at it that way... if you are a negative person. But if you are even remotely positive then you will see a player who has gone to the finals what? 6 times? And won 4 times? Give me Kobe and the Lakers over these other franchises any day!

[JustinJDW]

Yeah Rockets were suppose to lose against Blazers according to the so called experts. Also weren't the Cavs suppose to be in the Finals this year?Nope, the Cavs were supposed to win the Championship. :oldlol:

[D-Rose]

Everybody on ESPN is caught up in the moment as well....the most sense came out of Magics' and Wilbons' mouth.

I'm not hating on Kobe but this is my honest to god opinion. BTW, I can't stand Kobe.

With this ring, he moved up a couple notches in most peoples all-time lists..ok, I give him that. Hell, he even moved up in MY list. But, what I have a serious problem with is all this top 10 stuff.

MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar(insert whoever you want in place of him if you want)

I find it hard to believe he has had a better career than anybody there at age 30. Will he be there when it's all said and done? hmmm can't say, but probably. I've been anti-Kobe since he came into the league as a cocky SG but honest, I realize the guy is the best we have seen at the SG since MJ. Rings don't automatically put you into top 10 either so you can't use that...

Someone let me know what I have been missing...

The only players to ever win 4 titles, a Finals MVP, regular season MVP are:

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

and now Kobe.

The only players to average 30/5/5 in a Finals and WIN are MJ and Kobe.

If you think Kobe "might" be in the conversation of Top 10 by the END of his career, then you just don't realize how great Kobe is.

Can't really put Oscar ahead of Kobe, Oscar won one title as Kareem's sidekick. Kobe has won 3 as a sidekick and 1 as THE man.

[branslowski]

The only players to ever win 4 titles, a Finals MVP, regular season MVP are:

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

and now Kobe.

The only players to average 30/5/5 in a Finals and WIN are MJ and Kobe.If you think Kobe "might" be in the conversation of Top 10 by the END of his career, then you just don't realize how great Kobe is.

Can't really put Oscar ahead of Kobe, Oscar won one title as Kareem's sidekick. Kobe has won 3 as a sidekick and 1 as THE man.

Hakeem did it in 94'....

[Mor'Fiyah]

Everybody on ESPN is caught up in the moment as well....the most sense came out of Magics' and Wilbons' mouth.


Magic and Wilbon both called him the best player in the game today and both have him in the top ten but behind MJ and Magic himself.



MJ
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Russell
Hakeem
Oscar(insert whoever you want in place of him if you want)


Don't mind if I do. I put Kobe in there. Most people in the top ten are interchangeable with the exception of MJ.

[xcesswee]

Kobe is probably top 10 in my list but honestly he could be interchanged with other great players in the 10th spot. But it's going to be hard for him to move up because I just don't think he's better than duncan or Hakeem.

[bigkingsfan]

The only players to average 30/5/5 in a Finals and WIN are MJ and Kobe.
That stat is catered to SG. Come on now. Plenty of bigs have put up monster lines in the finals, but just because they don't pass the ball, they can't be put in the discussion. It's like defining 30 10 2 blocks, and Kobe and MJ can't be compared.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

Jerry West moves down to #11.

If Kobe wins 1 more, he will be top 7 and why or how you guys may ask? He will be 31 yrs old and chasing his 5th title.
Next season Shaq probably can't do squat next season*27min pg* and declining bigtime each year.
Duncan is pass his prime*34-35yrs old* and do you guys really think he will win another ring as the second best player on his team?
Next year Kobe will still be top 2 of the NBA at 31 while the rest have come and go. Kobe is still alive and kicking strong chasing his 5th championship ring.
If he wins a ring within the next yr or two I will put him to 7 easily as long as he's the #1 option in LA.

[Indian guy]

Fatal9, how does Kobe surpass TD with one more ring? 4 rings as THE MAN + 2 regular season MVPs + 3 Finals MVPs + superior defensive play + equivalent statistics > 5 rings(2 as the MAN) + 1 MVP + 2 Finals MVPs. All Kobe has going for him is 1 more championship. That does not make up for 2 less Finals MVPs, 1 less regular season MVP(assuming he doesn't win 1 more) and 2 less championships as the team's best player.

[Xsatyr]

That stat is catered to SG. Come on now. Plenty of bigs have put up monster lines in the finals, but just because they don't pass the ball, they can't be put in the discussion. It's like defining 30 10 2 blocks, and Kobe and MJ can't be compared.Yeah sure revert to being rational and using logic.

[branslowski]

The Lakers Starting Center's Numbers.....6ppg 4reb 40%fg....:oldlol: :oldlol:

:wtf:

[thejumpa]

The only players to ever win 4 titles, a Finals MVP, regular season MVP are:

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Duncan

and now Kobe.

The only players to average 30/5/5 in a Finals and WIN are MJ and Kobe.

If you think Kobe "might" be in the conversation of Top 10 by the END of his career, then you just don't realize how great Kobe is.

Can't really put Oscar ahead of Kobe, Oscar won one title as Kareem's sidekick. Kobe has won 3 as a sidekick and 1 as THE man.

Ok, gotcha. But, do THOSE stats mean he has catapulted himself into the Top 10 basketball players of ALL TIME? I mean, 30/5/5 is crazy, don't get me wrong but, in reality it doesn't mean to much. I mean, Jordan did that 4 times, so what does it really mean?

At the end of the day, I think he will be considered one of the best to ever do it....Top 10. Not because he may win more titles, but because what he will continue to do as a leader (something that at this point in his career is second most important to having another ring IMO) to his team. His stats should stay consistent and he should play for at least 5-6 more years.

4 titles? check....MVP and Finals MVP? check...that's a hell of a resume, but like I said, I think you have to look at impact on the game. What was his track record like? Can't say it is better than Duncans...and I put him right towards the end of my list.

[Fatal9]

Fatal9, how does Kobe surpass TD with one more ring? 4 rings as THE MAN + 2 regular season MVPs + 3 Finals MVPs + superior defensive play + equivalent statistics > 5 rings(2 as the MAN) + 1 MVP + 2 Finals MVPs. All Kobe has going for him is 1 more championship. That does not make up for 2 less Finals MVPs, 1 less regular season MVP(assuming he doesn't win 1 more) and 2 less championships as the team's best player.
He has 2 rings and 2* rings. I'd weigh Kobe's 5 rings (2 of them as #1, 1 of them as 1B) higher than Duncan's. I usually value scorers highly too (reason for me placing Bird over Magic).

[Mrofir]

I like Kobe at the 10 spot now.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic
6. Bill Russell
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

That's my list, though I really WANT to put Hakeem ahead of both Shaq and Tim.. he may have been a better player but he played in the Jordan era so it's quite hard to tell. Anyway that's a formidable wall of players ahead of Kobe. The only way he climbs is TWO more rings as the main guy. We're talking about legends here, not "really really good". He's going to have to exceed expectations. If he wins the NEXT 2 for a three-peat, I'll be inclined to put him at #5, and I think that's the highest he can ever go given some of his blunders. Hope Lakers fans can live with the agony of having only the 5th-10th most accomplished player of all time on their team. Notice I said most accomplished.. because there are literally dozens more players in the same general skill level.. barkley, D-rob, Lebron, Wade, Steve Nash (jk..), etc

Anyway congrats

[thejumpa]

Magic and Wilbon both called him the best player in the game today and both have him in the top ten but behind MJ and Magic himself.



Don't mind if I do. I put Kobe in there. Most people in the top ten are interchangeable with the exception of MJ.

Best player in the league? Sure, that's an opinion I don't agree with but, it's not really that much of a debate. Lebron or Kobe, pick one.

Most people in the Top 10 are interchangeable besides MJ? Debatable but ok....still, not sure if I could put Kobe in there just yet.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Best player in the league? Sure, that's an opinion I don't agree with but, it's not really that much of a debate. Lebron or Kobe, pick one.

Most people in the Top 10 are interchangeable besides MJ? Debatable but ok....still, not sure if I could put Kobe in there just yet.

And thats fine. The fact that you don't think its unreasonable that other do is at least fair a objective on your part and I can respect that. So where do you have Kobe? Just curious.

[Indian guy]

He has 2 rings and 2* rings.

Oh give me a ****ing break :oldlol:. By that logic I would totally discount Kobe's 3rd championship. That has a bigger asterisk than anything in NBA history. I would also discount this year's championship due to Yao going down in the 2nd round. I could easily see Houston winning 1 more game with him healthy.

So let's see now, Duncan's 2 championships as the MAN('99 & '03) + 2 MVPs + 2 Finals MVPs or Kobe's 3 with 2 of 'em as the 2nd fiddle + 1 MVP + 1 Finals MVP? What a toughie...:rolleyes:

[D-Rose]

Oh give me a ****ing break :oldlol:. By that logic I would totally discount Kobe's 3rd championship. That has a bigger asterisk than anything in NBA history. I would also discount this year's championship due to Yao going down in the 2nd round. I could easily see Houston winning 1 more game with him healthy.
So let's see now, Duncan's 2 championships as the MAN('99 & '03) + 2 MVPs + 2 Finals MVPs or Kobe's 2 as the 2nd fiddle('00 & '01) + 1 MVP? What a toughie...
Houston wouldn't have forced a Game 7 if Yao wasn't out. Him being gone opened up the floor for Aaron Brooks.

LA was 6-1 for the year against Yao-Rockets. 2-1 in the series.

We also took them seriously when Yao was playing. When this LA team plays with will and intensity, no one can beat them right now in the league.

[Mor'Fiyah]

By the way.... not even MJ ever averaged 32+ ppg and 7+ apg in an NBA finals. That doesn't make him better than anybody... but its just a testament to how good he has been even when he didn't play his best.

[chitownsfinest]

By the way.... not even MJ ever averaged 32+ ppg and 7+ apg in an NBA finals. That doesn't make him better than anybody... but its just a testament to how good he has been even when he didn't play his best.
He averaged 31+ ppg and 11 apg in 91 on 50+ % shooting. Just showing how illogical in can be to group specific stats.

[NBASTATMAN]

By the way.... not even MJ ever averaged 32+ ppg and 7+ apg in an NBA finals. That doesn't make him better than anybody... but its just a testament to how good he has been even when he didn't play his best.


WHAT A JOKE POST... Didn't mj avg like 31 pts and 11 ass in 91 with 56 percent shooting... Wow ,talk about homer... Didn' t lebron kill this same team... LOL.. KOBE should be respected but don't troll and post this crap.

[Mor'Fiyah]

He averaged 31+ ppg and 11 apg in 91 on 50+ % shooting. Just showing how illogical in can be to group specific stats.

Noted. And agreed. Wasn't saying it was better than Jordan... just pointing out that he had a hell of a finals despite not having the best FG% ... and he won!

[chitownsfinest]

Noted. And agreed. Wasn't saying it was better than Jordan... just pointing out that he had a hell of a finals despite not having the best FG% ... and he won!
:cheers:

[thejumpa]

And thats fine. The fact that you don't think its unreasonable that other do is at least fair a objective on your part and I can respect that. So where do you have Kobe? Just curious.

Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.

[Mor'Fiyah]

WHAT A JOKE POST... Didn't mj avg like 31 pts and 11 ass in 91 with 56 percent shooting... Wow ,talk about homer...

Also very good. Only MJ lost didn't he? Like I said. I wasn't pointing that out to say Kobe was better than MJ or anything of that sort. I merely pointed it out to say Kobe's stats were unbelievable even though he probably could have been better.

[NBASTATMAN]

Noted. And agreed. Wasn't saying it was better than Jordan... just pointing out that he had a hell of a finals despite not having the best FG% ... and he won!


Yea but why did MJ's name have to be put into that post.. You could easily have just stated kobe was great though he didn't shoot well... Kobe played smart and that is the reason the lakers won.. TOO BAD.. I really liked his dumb side better.. :oldlol:

[TheAnchorman]

Also very good. Only MJ lost didn't he? Like I said. I wasn't pointing that out to say Kobe was better than MJ or anything of that sort. I merely pointed it out to say Kobe's stats were unbelievable even though he probably could have been better.
MJ won.

[Avaj]

For those that don't have Kobe in their top 10 how many rings does he have to win to be in the top 10??

[NBASTATMAN]

Also very good. Only MJ lost didn't he? Like I said. I wasn't pointing that out to say Kobe was better than MJ or anything of that sort. I merely pointed it out to say Kobe's stats were unbelievable even though he probably could have been better.


WOW ,TALK ABOUT NOT KNOWING BBALL HISTORY.. LOL
HOW CAN WE TAKE ANYTHING THIS GUY POSTS SERIOUSLY?

[chitownsfinest]

Also very good. Only MJ lost didn't he? Like I said. I wasn't pointing that out to say Kobe was better than MJ or anything of that sort. I merely pointed it out to say Kobe's stats were unbelievable even though he probably could have been better.
Naah, the Bulls won in 5

[magi]

I don't really care where Kobe stands right now, I know for a fact once his career is done he'll be in the top 10. He is only 30 years of age, he'll play for another 6-8 years I'm sure. He has more accolades to win and hopefully more championships.

[TryToBeUnbias]

Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.

cant see anybody taking this post seriously...name those players in your top 20 please off the top of your head

[Mor'Fiyah]

Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.

Fair enough. I do think most people would think 25 is a little low, but you are welcome to your opinion.

As for the leadership role, I guess that might be subjective as well. It certainly seemed to me like he was the leader of that team... and a pretty good leader as well. The one thing he kind of infused in that team was this never give up mentality. There were times I thought they played badly as a team... but I never felt like they just gave up. The snaps of Kobe in the team huddle was some pretty surreal stuff. But I suppose we need to just see more of it.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Yea but why did MJ's name have to be put into that post.. You could easily have just stated kobe was great though he didn't shoot well... Kobe played smart and that is the reason the lakers won.. TOO BAD.. I really liked his dumb side better.. :oldlol:

Ok.

[NBASTATMAN]

For those that don't have Kobe in their top 10 how many rings does he have to win to be in the top 10??

I don't think Kobe is top ten but he also doesn't need to win any more titles.. If he wins 2 more MVP'S and keeps PLAYING GREAT for another 4 years than he gets there.. NO TITLES NEEDED... MVP'S are needed because his stats are not overpowering.. They are great but not ridiculous..

[D-Rose]

Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.
Can you please list which 24 players, in no order even, would you put ahead of Kobe Bryant as of now.

[Avaj]

I don't think Kobe is top ten but he also doesn't need to win any more titles.. If he wins 2 more MVP'S and keeps PLAYING GREAT for another 4 years than he gets there.. NO TITLES NEEDED... MVP'S are needed because his stats are not overpowering.. They are great but not ridiculous..

MVP'S mean nothing without the ring, ask Lebron :rolleyes:

[Mor'Fiyah]

WOW ,TALK ABOUT NOT KNOWING BBALL HISTORY.. LOL
HOW CAN WE TAKE ANYTHING THIS GUY POSTS SERIOUSLY?

My mistake. Again... and I did mention it in my initial post... I wasn't saying it to say Kobe had better stats than Jordan. Just that those are pretty impressive numbers. Jordanesque if you will. Try to take it easy with the caps.

[D-Rose]

MVP'S mean nothing without the ring, ask Lebron :rolleyes:
or Malone or Barkley.

[Sir Charles]

What? Stupid Put together win share, +/-/*/%/#/@/! type stats? That has Steve Kerr at the top of list? Per 36min * substitution pattern divided 2 Foul shots????.....Get your Impact Fraud Stats the F*ck out of here....You=Exposed for making Stupid remixed stats>>Over Winning....

Go To Your Little Stat Riddle World And

SUCK IT

[SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"]Pure Stats don`t tell much

BUT BROKEN DOWN STATS...Such as EFF, PER and Statistical +/- TELL THE REAL STORY.

Win Share = Teams
Defensive Shares = Teams
Offensive Win Shares = Teams

Share = Sharing = Teams (The Better Players You Play The Better that Will Show Up)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORT = Player
DRT = Player
PER = Player
EFF = Player
Statistical +/- = Player

Winning? = Teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russell > Wilt, Jordan everyone than that`s a lie and insult to anyone who thinks

Sorry but Impact and Efficiency is REALITY not MVPs, Not Votings, Not Hype...

PERIOD

PER: Pure Efficiency Impact Per Minute...Talent-Skill + Physical Gifts
EFF: Pure Efficiency Per Game, Season and Career
Staststical +/-: Total Impact!

Coincidently all The Top Players of All TIme are in the Top: Jordan N

[Fatal9]

Oh give me a ****ing break :oldlol:. By that logic I would totally discount Kobe's 3rd championship. That has a bigger asterisk than anything in NBA history. I would also discount this year's championship due to Yao going down in the 2nd round. I could easily see Houston winning 1 more game with him healthy.
Uh, no. I don't place asterisks based on gossip and speculation.

Fact of the matter is in '99 it was a half season. Rankings were all f*cked up. Bizarre things happened in the playoffs as an 8th seed went in to the finals (just a coincidence this happens in the season where 40% of the games weren't played). If anything Lakers were hurt the most as Shaq usually doesn't get in form/shape till the end of the season and Kobe was still improving.

In '07 the real championship series was decided directly by the league's actions when they had the option to use better judgement.

These two years are probably the biggest asterisk years in NBA history, with '99 being the biggest.

[Younggrease]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"]Pure Stats don`t tell much

BUT BROKEN DOWN STATS...Such as EFF, PER and Statistical +/- TELL THE REAL STORY.

Win Share = Teams
Defensive Shares = Teams
Offensive Win Shares = Teams

Share....

ORT = Player
DRT = Player
PER = Player
EFF = Player
Statistical +/- = Player

Winning? = Teams

Russell > Wilt, Jordan everyone than that`s a lie and insult to anyone who thinks

Sorry but Impact and Efficiency is REALITY not MVPs, Not Votings, Not Hype...

PERIOD

PER: Pure Efficiency Impact Per Minute...Talent-Skill + Physical Gifts
EFF: Pure Efficiency Per Game, Season and Career
Staststical +/-: Total Contribution

Coincidently all The Top Players of All TIme are in the Top: Jordan N

[D-Rose]

[QUOTE=Sir Charles][SIZE="3"][B][COLOR="Blue"]Pure Stats don`t tell much

BUT BROKEN DOWN STATS...Such as EFF, PER and Statistical +/- TELL THE REAL STORY.

Win Share = Teams
Defensive Shares = Teams
Offensive Win Shares = Teams

Share = Sharing = Teams (The Better Players You Play The Better that Will Show Up)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ORT = Player
DRT = Player
PER = Player
EFF = Player
Statistical +/- = Player

Winning? = Teams!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Russell > Wilt, Jordan everyone than that`s a lie and insult to anyone who thinks

Sorry but Impact and Efficiency is REALITY not MVPs, Not Votings, Not Hype...

PERIOD

PER: Pure Efficiency Impact Per Minute...Talent-Skill + Physical Gifts
EFF: Pure Efficiency Per Game, Season and Career
Staststical +/-: Total Impact!

Coincidently all The Top Players of All TIme are in the Top: Jordan N

[KenneBell]

turrible.

too bad stats don't win you titles :cheers:
Even his favorite player knows that.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Houston wouldn't have forced a Game 7 if Yao wasn't out. Him being gone opened up the floor for Aaron Brooks.


You do know Aaron Brooks had a great game 1 with Yao going off for 28 pts. :rolleyes:

[brantonli]

Whoa hang on a second. I remember last year when L. Kizzle (I think it was him) made that ISH Top 100 players of all time, and Kobe came in at 24th. Now, just by wining one, ONE, ring, he's catapulted to 10th? Something doesn't seem right there....

[Younggrease]

Whoa hang on a second. I remember last year when L. Kizzle (I think it was him) made that ISH Top 100 players of all time, and Kobe came in at 24th. Now, just by wining one, ONE, ring, he's catapulted to 10th? Something doesn't seem right there....

Kobe at 24 back then was a joke...People put fricken Stockton over him. After a while people were voting just to keep Kobe out

[D-Rose]

Whoa hang on a second. I remember last year when L. Kizzle (I think it was him) made that ISH Top 100 players of all time, and Kobe came in at 24th. Now, just by wining one, ONE, ring, he's catapulted to 10th? Something doesn't seem right there....
Cause one poster said it it's true?

A ring w/o Shaq and Finals MVP were the only things Kobe was missing, it is a big catapult.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.

Best post in this entire thread. :cheers:

Kobe is nowhere near the top 10 right now. Honestly I don't see what's he's accomplished that's more spectacular than Wade or Pierce, and Wade's run in 06 was much more impressive. That's the level he's moved into now. By some of their logic, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, and Derek Fisher are among the all time greats. They've got an amazing 16 rings between the three of them :bowdown:

[D-Rose]

You do know Aaron Brooks had a great game 1 with Yao going off for 28 pts. :rolleyes:
How about Game 2 and 3?

[thejumpa]

Fair enough. I do think most people would think 25 is a little low, but you are welcome to your opinion.

As for the leadership role, I guess that might be subjective as well. It certainly seemed to me like he was the leader of that team... and a pretty good leader as well. The one thing he kind of infused in that team was this never give up mentality. There were times I thought they played badly as a team... but I never felt like they just gave up. The snaps of Kobe in the team huddle was some pretty surreal stuff. But I suppose we need to just see more of it.

Don't get me wrong....Kobe WAS the leader of this team. I completely agree. But, we have really only seen a leadership version of Kobe (I guess people like to call it #24 Kobe?) for a couple years. He's been in the league for a while now...

And, your probably right on being #25. Like I said, I'm not a Kobe fan really (Even though, every year I hate the guys play less and less), so my opinion could be seen as worthless to some I guess. After examining everything....#20 is appropriate to me.

MJ
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Moses
West
Hakeem
Garnett (yup, KG)
Dr.J
Pippen
Havlicek
Thomas
Robinson????
Barry???
Kobe???

gets fuzzy to me here as I'm only 22 and haven't lived to see most of these players....switch any of those around towards the end and that's where I have Kobe at. I know it wasn't quick, but those are some players I came up with

BTW, that list isn't in any order...

[D-Rose]

Best post in this entire thread. :cheers:

Kobe is nowhere near the top 10 right now. Honestly I don't see what's he's accomplished that's more spectacular than Wade or Pierce, and Wade's run in 06 was much more impressive. That's the level he's moved into now. By some of their logic, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, and Derek Fisher are among the all time greats. They've got an amazing 16 rings between the three of them :bowdown:

How many regular season MVP awards do Wade and Pierce have? How many rings again?

Horry, Fish, Kerr were role players, it is rings as the #1 option that matter.


Where do I have Kobe?. To be honest, I have been thinking about that question for a couple days....

Without going into too much detail, off the top of my head, I have at something like 20-25, probably leaning more towards 25. I know people are going to look at me sideways for that but that's honestly where I see him at. He has the skills, no doubt, but hasn't shown he can be a true leader, which is HUGE IMO, for too long. Jordan was the same way, but bounced back better in IMO and kept a run going that truly showed his (AND Phils') leadership and dominance. I think it says a lot when people compare your game to Michael, so I give him that. I can't see someone comparing ones game to Kobe's in 15-20 years though....

Now, Kobe stays in a leadership role, wins rings, or maybe even doesn't win any rings, I still think he will be included in a Top 10 discussion. As of right now I cannot see it.

You still didn't answer my question. Name 24 players that you think are better than Kobe. You put Kobe at 25 so let's see who you got ahead of him?

EDIT: I see it now.

[thejumpa]

Best post in this entire thread. :cheers:

Kobe is nowhere near the top 10 right now. Honestly I don't see what's he's accomplished that's more spectacular than Wade or Pierce, and Wade's run in 06 was much more impressive. That's the level he's moved into now. By some of their logic, Robert Horry, Steve Kerr, and Derek Fisher are among the all time greats. They've got an amazing 16 rings between the three of them :bowdown:

I'm not sure if I see him on the same level as Wade or Pierce, but I see your point. I believe a lot of what he has done has been over hyped but it has been great...

And your right on the rings part, rings don't equal greatness necessarily. People on here said that if Kobe ends his career with 8 rings, he is the best ever.....better than MJ. That's wayyyy to premature of a statement. What if he wins 2 of the those rings as a 2nd option? Or has an incredible team around him (Like he did this year) I mean, maybe the Lakers get more players and if enables Kobe to even be the 3rd option offensively....then rings kind of go out of the conversation and leadership skills come into play, and overall reaction to challenges

yeah D-Rose I know I'm switching **** up on where Kobe is but I'm still trying to figure out how Kobe won another ring after I said he never would lol....

[D-Rose]

Don't get me wrong....Kobe WAS the leader of this team. I completely agree. But, we have really only seen a leadership version of Kobe (I guess people like to call it #24 Kobe?) for a couple years. He's been in the league for a while now...

And, your probably right on being #25. Like I said, I'm not a Kobe fan really (Even though, every year I hate the guys play less and less), so my opinion could be seen as worthless to some I guess. After examining everything....#20 is appropriate to me.

MJ
Bird
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Moses
West
Hakeem
Garnett (yup, KG)
Dr.J
Pippen
Havlicek
Thomas
Robinson????
Barry???
Kobe???

gets fuzzy to me here as I'm only 22 and haven't lived to see most of these players....switch any of those around towards the end and that's where I have Kobe at. I know it wasn't quick, but those are some players I came up with

BTW, that list isn't in any order...

The ones in bold are the only ones that are realistically better or make a case to be better than Kobe right now.

Pip? Admiral? Isiah? Rick Barry? Hondo? KG? :oldlol: :roll:

Oscar and Dr. J, they were just as talented if not more but don't have the resume.

Oscar had one title as the sidekick to Kareem. Dr. J had ONE title in his career, with Moses Malone. Both won the MVP once.

[Juges8932]

Hell yeah he is. :rockon:

[Showtime]

Oscar had one title as the sidekick to Kareem.

God, I'm so sick of this argument without context. A player of his caliber should have gotten to more playoff appearances, but many of the ones he did get he was stopped by the Boston Celtics and the Sixers who ended up being the champs. He even took the Celtics to a game 7 and almost interrupted their famous championship streak. His title with KAJ is on the same level as Kobe with Shaq, but let's not act like he had the same situation Kobe has now, which is having the most talented team in the game. People clamor on about Kobe's great individual play when he was losing with mediocre talent around him, or make excuses about being outmatched against top defenses like the Pistons and Celtics and then in the same breath blame Robertson for not winning enough games against some of the best teams of all time.


Dr. J had ONE title in his career, with Moses Malone. Both won the MVP once.
Wow, way to totally dismiss his two titles with the Nets in the ABA as well as his individual dominance and superior impact on the game of basketball.

[chitownsfinest]

The ones in bold are the only ones that are realistically better or make a case to be better than Kobe right now.

Pip? Admiral? Isiah? Rick Barry? Hondo? KG? :oldlol: :roll:

Oscar and Dr. J, they were just as talented if not more but don't have the resume.

Oscar had one title as the sidekick to Kareem. Dr. J had ONE title in his career, with Moses Malone. Both won the MVP once.
I agree that Kobe is better then Pip, Robinson, Barry, and KG but Zeke did win 2 titles as the leader, one finals MVP, led his team to three finals sppearences overall, 12 time all star, and 5 time all nba. He was also a great defender and won his titles with no dominant big. He can arguably be compared to Kobe (even though I take Kobe over him). Hondo is one of the greatest all around perimeter players of all time and won 8 titles and one of them as the man. He was also one of the main scorers on many of those teams since Russell mainly played the defensive end. He can be debated to be over Kobe as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Shaq.
7. Russell
8. Olajuwon
9. Kobe
10. Duncan

11. Moses Malone
12. West
13. George Mikan
14. Oscar
15. Dr J.
16. Elgin Baylor
17. Karl Malone
18. Scottie Pippen
19. Charles Barkley
20. Isiah Thomas

[D-Rose]

God, I'm so sick of this argument without context. A player of his caliber should have gotten to more playoff appearances, but many of the ones he did get he was stopped by the Boston Celtics and the Sixers who ended up being the champs. He even took the Celtics to a game 7 and almost interrupted their famous championship streak. His title with KAJ is on the same level as Kobe with Shaq, but let's not act like he had the same situation Kobe has now, which is having the most talented team in the game. People clamor on about Kobe's great individual play when he was losing with mediocre talent around him, or make excuses about being outmatched against top defenses like the Pistons and Celtics and then in the same breath blame Robertson for not winning enough games against some of the best teams of all time.


Wow, way to totally dismiss his two titles with the Nets in the ABA as well as his individual dominance and superior impact on the game of basketball.

But I mean it's ok that Jordan had the most talented team most years too right?:rolleyes:

Oscar put up great stats and was a great player but at the end of Kobe's career he will definetly be ranked ahead of him. Winning is what matters.

Yeah, Dr. J had a huge impact on the game but his individual achievments aren't much greater than Kobe at age 30 if at all.

[lilbeastnani]

Kobe has the potential to finish above Shaq. He's not there yet, but his style of play will age well and the Lakers have the right players to stay contenders for a long time.
I'd say if Kobe gets to 6 rings, he'd definitely hop at least 3-4 spots on that list. And he's got a shot at doing so.

[thejumpa]

The ones in bold are the only ones that are realistically better or make a case to be better than Kobe right now.

Pip? Admiral? Isiah? Rick Barry? Hondo? KG? :oldlol: :roll:

Oscar and Dr. J, they were just as talented if not more but don't have the resume.

Oscar had one title as the sidekick to Kareem. Dr. J had ONE title in his career, with Moses Malone. Both won the MVP once.

Like I said, switch them around if you want.....I could see that. You highlighted 12 players so take out the rest and Kobe is still at 13....

If you want to talk titles, Hondo has how many?

Robinson was an incredible asset to the Spurs. His resume isn't anything to spit on either...A true C who stayed consistent throughout his career. Yeah, he needed Duncan to win, but his track record is consistent.

Pippen....underrated, that's all I have to say about that.

KG? Like I said in another post, I honestly think that if you switch Duncan with KG, KG would have 3-4 rings by now and be included in everybodys top 10. He played on a bad team for a lot of years, true, but has stayed crazy consistent. Offensively, Defensively, whatever....the guy is a beast. Incredible leadership....stupid good basketball IQ. IMO, the best all around PF in my generation. The ONLY reason I give Duncan a pass is because he has the rings/awards to back **** up.

Rick Barry,Dr. J,Isiah,Oscar,Dr.J, ok.....I see what your saying. But, then again I'm not looking at rings as everything. Michael learned from Dr.J....that shows his impact on the game right there.

Trust me, I try to be as realistic as possible when it comes to this. Kobe is the best SG since MJ, I agree. But, I think people get amazed by his super offensive 1 on 1 skills that they got lost of what should really make a TOP 10 player.

[thejumpa]

God, I'm so sick of this argument without context. A player of his caliber should have gotten to more playoff appearances, but many of the ones he did get he was stopped by the Boston Celtics and the Sixers who ended up being the champs. He even took the Celtics to a game 7 and almost interrupted their famous championship streak. His title with KAJ is on the same level as Kobe with Shaq, but let's not act like he had the same situation Kobe has now, which is having the most talented team in the game. People clamor on about Kobe's great individual play when he was losing with mediocre talent around him, or make excuses about being outmatched against top defenses like the Pistons and Celtics and then in the same breath blame Robertson for not winning enough games against some of the best teams of all time.


Wow, way to totally dismiss his two titles with the Nets in the ABA as well as his individual dominance and superior impact on the game of basketball.

:applause: Perfect post.

Most people don't even count the ABA....I don't understand it.

[D-Rose]

I agree that Kobe is better then Pip, Robinson, Barry, and KG but Zeke did win 2 titles as the leader, one finals MVP, led his team to three finals sppearences overall, 12 time all star, and 5 time all nba. He was also a great defender and won his titles with no dominant big. He can arguably be compared to Kobe (even though I take Kobe over him). Hondo is one of the greatest all around perimeter players of all time and won 8 titles and one of them as the man. He was also one of the main scorers on many of those teams since Russell mainly played the defensive end. He can be debated to be over Kobe as well.

Isiah didn't have dominant men on offense but Laimbeer and Rodman are dominant in their own right.

You said it yourself Hondo won only one as the man. Never won League MVP. Played on the dynasty of dynasties. Career 21 PPG on 44%. Kobe has aready passed him in playoff pts, will pass him overall pts later on. Was a great player I totally agree, but I'm just showing where Kobe is ahead.

[Showtime]

But I mean it's ok that Jordan had the most talented team most years too right?:rolleyes:

Most years? No. Maybe his second 3 peat.


Oscar put up great stats and was a great player but at the end of Kobe's career he will definetly be ranked ahead of him. Winning is what matters.

Winning does matter, but so does context. First of all, he's one of the best college players ever. Second, he didn't force a trade to a top team and then win rings at an early age while he developed. He then wasn't on a team that pulls off deals to get the best and deepest team to ease the burden. All in all, while Kobe has proven to be a top player in the game, and one of the best scoring guards of all time, his road has been a lot smoother than Robertson's. I do value winning, but I also value the context of team success and how a player plays under those circumstances. I think Kobe, while being key to some of those rings, still has been in an incredibly favorable situation for most of his career that doesn't even compare to Oscar's situation.


Yeah, Dr. J had a huge impact on the game but his individual achievments aren't much greater than Kobe at age 30 if at all.
So, again you dismiss his ABA career? Considering his entire professional career, he's accomplished more and had a larger impact than Kobe.

[D-Rose]

Most years? No. Maybe his second 3 peat.



Winning does matter, but so does context. First of all, he's one of the best college players ever. Second, he didn't force a trade to a top team and then win rings at an early age while he developed. He then wasn't on a team that pulls off deals to get the best and deepest team to ease the burden. All in all, while Kobe has proven to be a top player in the game, and one of the best scoring guards of all time, his road has been a lot smoother than Robertson's. I do value winning, but I also value the context of team success and how a player plays under those circumstances. I think Kobe, while being key to some of those rings, still has been in an incredibly favorable situation for most of his career that doesn't even compare to Oscar's situation.


So, again you dismiss his ABA career? Considering his entire professional career, he's accomplished more and had a larger impact than Kobe.

I see what you mean and agree to most of it. Kobe isn't done though. he's still got more to win, his resume is not complete. I think this whole thread will be an easier discussion once he is retired.

[Roundball_Rock]

Uh, no. I don't place asterisks based on gossip and speculation.

Fact of the matter is in '99 it was a half season. Rankings were all f*cked up. Bizarre things happened in the playoffs as an 8th seed went in to the finals (just a coincidence this happens in the season where 40% of the games weren't played). If anything Lakers were hurt the most as Shaq usually doesn't get in form/shape till the end of the season and Kobe was still improving.

In '07 the real championship series was decided directly by the league's actions when they had the option to use better judgement.

These two years are probably the biggest asterisk years in NBA history, with '99 being the biggest.

:applause:


BUT BROKEN DOWN STATS...Such as EFF, PER and Statistical +/- TELL THE REAL STORY.

Sir_Charles, how much "real impact" can a player who never won a ring have had?

[chitownsfinest]

Isiah didn't have dominant men on offense but Laimbeer and Rodman are dominant in their own right.

You said it yourself Hondo won only one as the man. Never won League MVP. Played on the dynasty of dynasties. Career 21 PPG on 44%. Kobe has aready passed him in playoff pts, will pass him overall pts later on. Was a great player I totally agree, but I'm just showing where Kobe is ahead.
Yes and Kobe has only won one as the man as well. You could even argue that Hondo was the 1b guy in many of the runs along with Russel (as you can say for Kobe in 01). In the 65-66 season, he improved his numbers to 24/9/4 and in 67-68, he improved his numbers to 26/9/8 and led his team in points and assists during the playoffs. You mention he was playing on amazingly stacked teams but then you bring up his stats. Obviously playing on the stacked teams would limit his scoring since he would have less shots and possesions due to sharing the ball with guys like Sam Jones. I am not saying he is ahead of Kobe, but they are on par with each other.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe's 4 rings>Hondos' 8. Hondo won 6 against only 7 or 8 teams. Making the conference semifinals today (only 8 of 30 teams make it there so you are better than 22-25 teams just be making it to the semifinals)>a 60's championship.

[D-Rose]

Yes and Kobe has only won one as the man as well. You could even argue that Hondo was the 1b guy in many of the runs along with Russel (as you can say for Kobe in 01). In the 65-66 season, he improved his numbers to 24/9/4 and in 67-68, he improved his numbers to 26/9/8 and led his team in points and assists during the playoffs. You mention he was playing on amazingly stacked teams but then you bring up his stats. Obviously playing on the stacked teams would limit his scoring since he would have less shots and possesions due to sharing the ball with guys like Sam Jones. I am not saying he is ahead of Kobe, but they are on par with each other.
Agree, he was a great player.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Most years? No. Maybe his second 3 peat.



Winning does matter, but so does context. First of all, he's one of the best college players ever. Second, he didn't force a trade to a top team and then win rings at an early age while he developed. He then wasn't on a team that pulls off deals to get the best and deepest team to ease the burden. All in all, while Kobe has proven to be a top player in the game, and one of the best scoring guards of all time, his road has been a lot smoother than Robertson's. I do value winning, but I also value the context of team success and how a player plays under those circumstances. I think Kobe, while being key to some of those rings, still has been in an incredibly favorable situation for most of his career that doesn't even compare to Oscar's situation.


So, again you dismiss his ABA career? Considering his entire professional career, he's accomplished more and had a larger impact than Kobe.

Cool. I can respect that. But let me throw something out there on your whole "favourable situation" theory. Should Kobe and Shaq and Jordan and all the Lakers greats and many of the Celtics greats also be penalized for being in favorable positions? I see where you are coming from and I do respect players who succeeded against all odds, but I am just not sure how you compare that to other players who succeeded with a lot of help... succeeding in favorable conditions doesn't mean that you couldn't have succeeded in unfavorable conditions. Similarly, succeeding in unfavorable doesn't necessarily mean that you would have had more success in different, more favorable conditions.

I think what you have to look at is what each player did with the circumstances he was given. Based on that I don't think you can find much fault with Kobe Bryant with the exception maybe of him losing to the Suns after going 3-1 up and submitting to the Celtics a bit too easily maybe. Other than that he has mostly maximized his first three rings and then been back to the finals three times since and won once. Not bad. Not bad at all.

[nnn123]

Kobe's 4 rings>Hondos' 8. Hondo won 6 against only 7 or 8 teams. Making the conference semifinals today (only 8 of 30 teams make it there so you are better than 22-25 teams just be making it to the semifinals)>a 60's championship.



But imagine if there were only 8 teams in the league this year....you take all the top players in the league and bunch them into 8 teams. I would say winning 8 championships in this stacked league would be pretty darn impressive. It would be significantly harder.

[D-Rose]

Cool. I can respect that. But let me throw something out there on your whole "favourable situation" theory. Should Kobe and Shaq and Jordan and all the Lakers greats and many of the Celtics greats also be penalized for being in favorable positions? I see where you are coming from and I do respect players who succeeded against all odds, but I am just not sure how you compare that to other players who succeeded with a lot of help... succeeding in favorable conditions doesn't mean that you couldn't have succeeded in unfavorable conditions. Similarly, succeeding in unfavorable doesn't necessarily mean that you would have had more success in different, more favorable conditions.
Agree with this post. It's all hypothetical.

People say put Iverson on Shaq-Lakers it's a title.

I say put Kobe on Melo/Camby/K-Mart maybe it's a title Put Kobe on Rip/Stuckey/Sheed/Tay maybe it's a title.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Agree with this post. It's all hypothetical.

People say put Iverson on Shaq-Lakers it's a title.

I say put Kobe on Melo/Camby/K-Mart maybe it's a title Put Kobe on Rip/Stuckey/Sheed/Tay maybe it's a title.

Its very hypothetical. I mean what if Phil Jackson never went to Chicago and Jordan continued putting up astronomical stats while never winning a Championship. Wouldn't that have put Jordan several rungs down the all time great list? Its amazing how in order to actually be considered the greatest of the great, how luck and the right circumstances had to align itself in favor of the player. I mean its very possible that Lebron could break every statistical record and never win a ring!

[nnn123]

Its very hypothetical. I mean what if Phil Jackson never went to Chicago and Jordan continued putting up astronomical stats while never winning a Championship. Wouldn't that have put Jordan several rungs down the all time great list? Its amazing how in order to actually be considered the greatest of the great, how luck and the right circumstances had to align itself in favor of the player. I mean its very possible that Lebron could break every statistical record and never win a ring!


This is exactly why I think "top 10" lists are absolute garbage, and I will never make one in my life. I can only make a list of the "greatest players I have ever seen play" but that's about it. No numbering, no nothing.

[Killer_Instinct]

I hate the 'what-if' scenario(s). If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

[D-Rose]

Who would have known Stuart Scott knows something lol

Here's his list:http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4259112&categoryid=2459788

He put it like this

1. Michael Jordan

2-7 (no order)
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Oscar
Russell
Bird

8-10 (no order)
Kobe
Shaq
Duncan

Do what you will with the ordering after Jordan but that's fairly accurate except he forgot Hakeem :ohwell: :banghead:

[Mor'Fiyah]

This is exactly why I think "top 10" lists are absolute garbage, and I will never make one in my life. I can only make a list of the "greatest players I have ever seen play" but that's about it. No numbering, no nothing.

I think I actually agree with that. Technically its all subjective. If MJ is indeed the greatest player who ever played the game then why should that change based on whether he was in the position to win a ring or not? I mean, the reason people are so willing to drop Oscar RObertson from the list in favor of Bryant is because we put so much stake in winning, which is equivalent to putting stake in being lucky and in the right position with the right set of circumstances.

[thejumpa]

This is exactly why I think "top 10" lists are absolute garbage, and I will never make one in my life. I can only make a list of the "greatest players I have ever seen play" but that's about it. No numbering, no nothing.

Well, sometimes they spark arguments, other times good conversations, like this one...

If he is top 10 now and retires 5-6 years from now(lets say 8 if he just wants to stay around lol), where would you guys think he ranks then? realistically

[chopchop20]

I could care less... he's helped bring 4 championships to LA. It feels great tonight!

[Xsatyr]

How about Game 2 and 3?How about Aaron Brooks has proven to be an inconsistent player in general. Yao Ming being out means nothing bc he has had 20 point games with Yao playing during the regular season.

[D-Rose]

Well, sometimes they spark arguments, other times good conversations, like this one...

If he is top 10 now and retires 5-6 years from now(lets say 8 if he just wants to stay around lol), where would you guys think he ranks then? realistically
Depends how many titles he wins. LA has a talented and young team so it is fairly realistic he could win at least 2 more titles.

He can't move past Jordan, Wilt, or Kareem even if he cures cancer.

Depends what Duncan still has left in the tank and maybe even if Shaq can get one with LBJ.

Two or three more titles I'd say he's in the argument to be in Bird/Magic territory.

[thejumpa]

Depends how many titles he wins. LA has a talented and young team so it is fairly realistic he could win at least 2 more titles.

He can't move past Jordan, Wilt, or Kareem even if he cures cancer.

Depends what Duncan still has left in the tank and maybe even if Shaq can get one with LBJ.

Two or three more titles I'd say he's in the argument to be in Bird/Magic territory.

I can see that. At some point, you can't ignore rings, 2nd option or not.

But, what if he wins no more rings....

[D-Rose]

How about Aaron Brooks has proven to be an inconsistent player in general. Yao Ming being out means nothing bc he has 20 point games with Yao playing during the regular season.
Did he have 34 pt games with Yao in? Yao not camping in the lane obviously opened things up for Brooks to drive more to the lane.

You may be right, maybe Houston would beat LA with a healthy Yao, but in my estimation LA was going to beat them since we were up 2-1 and we respected the Rockets with Yao in. Gasol/Odom/Bynum had to work for it when Yao was in the paint, they got all lazy and relaxed mentally when he was out.

[Mor'Fiyah]

James Worthy says Kobe is top ten... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnbkxOrM7k)

[raptorfan_dr07]

Just a little something I was thinking about. By most of these Kobe fans logic, Scottie Pippen was a top 10 great years ago. They say Kobe has 4 rings, well, Scottie has 6. Scottie is widely regarded as one of the GOAT defenders. Just like Kobe fans say Shaq needed Kobe, MJ needed Scottie. Big time contributor to 6 championship teams. Scottie = top 10 :bowdown:

Oh I forgot, Kobe fans only hype up Scottie when it pertains to MJ. And they'll bring up meaningless BS like "81 pts, 62 in 3 quarters". Scottie himself owned Mark Jackson with that argument a few years ago. The only thing Kobe one upped on Scottie is a Finals MVP. Yet there are players with Finals MVPs that had more impressive runs that they're trying to place Kobe over. :rolleyes:

[D-Rose]

Just a little something I was thinking about. By most of these Kobe fans logic, Scottie Pippen was a top 10 great years ago. They say Kobe has 4 rings, well, Scottie has 6. Scottie is widely regarded as one of the GOAT defenders. Just like Kobe fans say Shaq needed Kobe, MJ needed Scottie. Big time contributor to 6 championship teams. Scottie = top 10 :bowdown:

Oh I forgot, Kobe fans only hype up Scottie when it pertains to MJ. And they'll bring up meaningless BS like "81 pts, 62 in 3 quarters". Scottie himself owned Mark Jackson with that argument a few years ago. The only thing Kobe one upped on Scottie is a Finals MVP. Yet there are players with Finals MVPs that had more impressive runs that they're trying to place Kobe over. :rolleyes:

How many league MVPs did Pip win? How many Finals MVP? How many scoring titles? How many titles as the #1? Has he ever been to the Finals as the #1?

[Mor'Fiyah]

Just a little something I was thinking about. By most of these Kobe fans logic, Scottie Pippen was a top 10 great years ago. They say Kobe has 4 rings, well, Scottie has 6. Scottie is widely regarded as one of the GOAT defenders. Just like Kobe fans say Shaq needed Kobe, MJ needed Scottie. Big time contributor to 6 championship teams. Scottie = top 10 :bowdown:

Oh I forgot, Kobe fans only hype up Scottie when it pertains to MJ. And they'll bring up meaningless BS like "81 pts, 62 in 3 quarters". Scottie himself owned Mark Jackson with that argument a few years ago. The only thing Kobe one upped on Scottie is a Finals MVP. Yet there are players with Finals MVPs that had more impressive runs that they're trying to place Kobe over. :rolleyes:

Ah no. Kobe has scoring titles. All star MVPs. MVPs. Finals MVP. Number one option on a team for more than a few years. etc etc.

No one is using just number of rings to propel Kobe into the top ten.

[LA_Showtime]

How many league MVPs did Pip win? How many Finals MVP? How many scoring titles? How many titles as the #1? Has he ever been to the Finals as the #1?

Oh come on, don't throw those type of comments out there. Kobe didn't lead anyone anywhere before this season but he was still a great player.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Oh come on, don't throw those type of comments out there. Kobe didn't lead anyone anywhere before this season but he was still a great player.

As is Scottie Pippen. But without a ring as the numero uno its hard to argue a player is top ten.

[D-Rose]

Oh come on, don't throw those type of comments out there. Kobe didn't lead anyone anywhere before this season but he was still a great player.
These things were basically what Kobe was lacking.

I love Pippen, he was a great #2, but he isn't Kobe.

[Roundball_Rock]

How many league MVPs did Pip win? How many Finals MVP? How many scoring titles? How many titles as the #1? Has he ever been to the Finals as the #1?

He played with the GOAT. If Wilt played with MJ he would have had no MVP's either. When MJ retired Pippen nearly won the MVP in the one full season he had without MJ in his prime.

Pippen is top 20 all-time and would have been higher if it were not for MJ's shadow. His 6 rings>Kobe's 4. What puts Kobe higher is that he is a far better offensive player. The MVP? Pippen had only one prime season without MJ and nearly won it. Kobe was the top dog on his team for 7 seasons and has 1 MVP. Give Pippen 7 cracks at it and he very likely would have won at least 1 MVP. Finals MVP? That is a joke award. Tony Parker and Cedric Maxwell combine for as many finals MVP's as Kareem. That tells you all you need about that award. Besides, Jesus himself would not be able to win a finals MVP over Jordan. There was too much NBA, corporate investment in MJ. MJ could have averaged 6/2/1 on 13% shooting and he still would have won those finals MVP's. However, Kobe is the most prolific scorer since Wilt/MJ, and he came close to matching MJ's best season (35.4 ppg versus 37.1 ppg). Pippen>Kobe on defense but his inferiority on offense is greater than his superiority on defense. Hence, Kobe is higher on the all-time lists.

[D-Rose]

He played with the GOAT. If Wilt played with MJ he would have had no MVP's either. When MJ retired Pippen nearly won the MVP in the one full season he had without MJ in his prime.

Pippen is top 20 all-time and would have been higher if it were not for MJ's shadow. His 6 rings>Kobe's 4. What puts Kobe higher is that he was a far better offensive player. The MVP? Pippen had only one prime season without MJ and nearly won it. Kobe was the top dog on his team for 7 seasons and has 1 MVP. Give Pippen 7 cracks at it and he very likely would have won at least 1 MVP. Finals MVP? That is a joke award. Tony Parker and Cedric Maxell combine for as many finals MVP's as Kareem. That tells you all you need about that award. Besides, Jesus himself would not be able to win a finals MVP over Jordan. There was too much NBA, corporate investment in MJ. MJ could have averaged 6/2/1 on 13% shooting and he still would have won those finals MVP's. However, Kobe is the most prolific scorer since Wilt/MJ, and he came close to matching MJ's best season (35.4 ppg versus 37.1 ppg). Pippen>Kobe on defense but his inferiority on offense is greater than his superiority on defense. Hence, Kobe is higher on the all-time lists.

Yeah definetly, Pip might have had some individual success if he wasn't paired with MJ for so long. He's clearly a better defender than Kobe but as most reasonable people think, Kobe is ahead of Scottie on all-time lists. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

I have Kobe 9th all-time right now, Pippen 18th. If Kobe wins next season he overtakes Hakeem and would have a case over Bird/Russell/Shaq. If he can get to 6 he leaves these guys behind and has a case over Magic. I think only Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt are beyond Kobe's reach.

[monkeypox]

I think it's unfair to say Kobe's only got one championship. He was more than an Robert Horry on those three chips. People credit Garnet with a ring even though he didn't win finals mvp, so I don't know why people competely discredit Kobe's three other rings. And for those that live by the stats I beleive he lead in win shares for one of the three. Being an elite player on four championships is pretty damn good.

[Sir Charles]

How many league MVPs did Pip win? How many Finals MVP? How many scoring titles? How many titles as the #1? Has he ever been to the Finals as the #1?

:rolleyes:

How many times has Bryant ben the Most Dominant Defender in the Game (DRT) ?

WHen Jordan Left ...Pippen was among the Most Dominant Defender in the Game ....Finished as Top 4 Player in the League (Top 4 PER) with NO Top 10 PER Player in the League : PAU GASOL (Today`s Kevin McHale) a Top 10 Best Player the Last 9 Years!!!

Not to Mention Imagine How Hard that is to Be

Among the Most Dominant Defenders in the Game (Like Howard is now, 2nd Lebron) but Also THEE GAME CREATOR for His Team while the the Leading Scorer for His team, Leading Assiter for His Team, Leading Stealer for His Team and 3rd in Rebounds for his Team with 9.4 per game?

More Respect for Scottie Pippen = Greatest Perimeter Defender of All Time, One of the Greatest Game Creators of All time from the PF Position

Pippen in his Prime was around Kobe`s level and quite possibly better in everything except the 1 on 1 Game, Scoring and Shooting.

More Respect 12 year old!

[D-Rose]

I think it's unfair to say Kobe's only got one championship. He was more than an Robert Horry on those three chips. People credit Garnet with a ring even though he didn't win finals mvp, so I don't know why people competely discredit Kobe's three other rings. And for those that live by the stats I beleive he lead in win shares for one of the three. Being an elite player on four championships is pretty damn good.
I think Kobe said it right in the Press conference that people just discredited his role altogether as a star on that team.

I love how he said it's a great feeling to prove all the haters wrong. :pimp:

[D-Rose]

:rolleyes:

How many times has Bryant ben the Most Dominant Defender in the Game (DRT) ?

WHen Jordan Left ...Pippen was among the Most Dominant Defender in the Game ....Finished as Top 4 Player in the League (Top 4 PER) with NO Top 10 PER Player in the League : PAU GASOL (Today`s Kevin McHale) a Top 10 Best Player the Last 9 Years!!!

Not to Mention Imagine How Hard that is to Be

Among the Most Dominant Defenders in the Game (Like Howard is now, 2nd Lebron) but Also THEE GAME CREATOR for His Team while the the Leading Scorer for His team, Leading Assiter for His Team, Leading Stealer for His Team and 3rd in Rebounds for his Team with 9.4 per game?

More Respect for Scottie Pippen = Greatest Perimeter Defender of All Time, One of the Greatest Game Creators of All time from the PF Position

Pippen in his Prime was around Kobe`s level and quite possibly better in everything except the 1 on 1 Game, Scoring and Shooting.

More Respect 12 year old!

My post did seem a bit snobby and fanboyish but I was only saying what the difference was between Kobe and Pippen. I didn't mean to underrate Pippen in any way.

Can you please give your Top 10 or Top 20 all time list ? I'm interested how much of your list is dependent on EFF, PER, other stats.

[Sir Charles]

I think it's unfair to say Kobe's only got one championship. He was more than an Robert Horry on those three chips. People credit Garnet with a ring even though he didn't win finals mvp, so I don't know why people competely discredit Kobe's three other rings. And for those that live by the stats I beleive he lead in win shares for one of the three. Being an elite player on four championships is pretty damn good.

He didn`t win because of the media crap that destroy`s the reality of the game and the respect for Pierce whom had been the leader for the last decade for the Celtics: when one arrives he can`t just take away the ground of a player that has been around more. Its called respect dummy!

*Look at the Celtics now...can hardly get passed the 1st Round with out Garnett!!! from Champions to that!...thats how Impactful his Game is.

And yes Garnett was THEE REAL FINALS MVP for the Champions of 2008

That goes for Real NBA Fans Not Kiddos Who Listen to What the Media Tells Them and Repeates it Like a Recorder

[D-Rose]

He didn`t win because of the media crap that destroy`s the reality of the game and the respect for Pierce whom had been the leader for the last decade for the Celtics: when one arrives he can`t just take away the ground of a player that has been around more. Its called respect dummy!

*Look at the Celtics now...can hardly get passed the 1st Round with out Garnett!!! from Champions to that!...thats how Impactful his Game is.

And yes Garnett was THEE REAL FINALS MVP for the Champions of 2008

That goes for Real NBA Fans Not Kiddos Who Listen to What the Media Tells Them and Repeates it Like a Recorder
:wtf:
Take away Pierce and it's the same amount of success. Without Pierce there's no clutch go-to guy that can create.

[monkeypox]

He didn`t win because of the media crap that destroy`s the reality of the game and the respect for Pierce whom had been the leader for the last decade for the Celtics: when one arrives he can`t just take away the ground of a player that has been around more. Its called respect dummy!

*Look at the Celtics now...can hardly get passed the 1st Round with out Garnett!!! from Champions to that!...thats how Impactful his Game is.

And yes Garnett was THEE REAL FINALS MVP for the Champions of 2008

That goes for Real NBA Fans Not Kiddos Who Listen to What the Media Tells Them and Repeates it Like a Recorder

I agree that Garnett deserves full credit for that ring, just tell that to the people that think "no finals mvp = you are robert horry."

[Dbrog]

I have Kobe 9th all-time right now, Pippen 18th. If Kobe wins next season he overtakes Hakeem and would have a case over Bird/Russell/Shaq. If he can get to 6 he leaves these guys behind and has a case over Magic. I think only Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt are beyond Kobe's reach.

:roll: @ Kobe being ranked higher than Duncan currently.

[wg1man]

Yea definetely agree Kobe Bryant is officially one of the top ten players of all time! Congratulations Kobe Bryant and the Los Angeles Lakers, they deseerved it! :applause:

[stephanieg]

Huh?

[Big#50]

Yeah, how does that effect my point?

What I am saying is that Kobe got to play with the Greatest Center in 20 years. People wondered if he can win without Shaq, and it took him 7 years to do it.

That's only Ring #1 as a Leader. Why do we dismiss guys like Pippen and Worthy, who have just as many Rings as Kobe? Because they are not Leaders. Kobe finally has one as a Leader. That does not make you Top 10.
Agreed.

[Laker4Lyfe]

http://i40.tinypic.com/65zcs9.jpg

[D-Rose]

Agreed.
Honestly I guess you guys don't see the big picture. It's not only getting a title as a #1 and Finals MVP that put Kobe in this position. It is a combination of other accomplishments that can arguably put him in the Top 10.

This was all Kobe was missing, he already had everything else (11 time All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive, MVP, Scoring titles, ASG MVP, youngest to 20K, etc etc).

[Sir Charles]

My post did seem a bit snobby and fanboyish but I was only saying what the difference was between Kobe and Pippen. I didn't mean to underrate Pippen in any way.

Can you please give your Top 10 or Top 20 all time list ? I'm interested how much of your list is dependent on EFF, PER, other stats.

Its dependant alot on reality which is shown in "Broken Down Stats" through EFF, PER and Statistical + / -

-They Tell the Real Story...that the Hype-Media-Votings-Likes Don`t Wan`t to Look At...

*But lets Remember...Those would be more exact if they where measured by the Level of Teamate One Is Sorrounded by In Your Prime and Those Teamates Prime...so then there would be an even more exacpt mesaure of Efficiency, Production, Impact and Domination but those have not yet been made...

*Also that should be measured for players Primes (usually ages 22-32) because if player plays passed 32-34 then his EFF, PER (including Play-Off PER, even more important than season) and Statistical +/- declines greatly and especially at 35,36,37,38 etc..

*There are few exceptions that have played at a superior level passed 32-34 (Jabbar, Jordan, Malone, Kobe most likely..etc)

In No Order i can make a Sure Top 16 For Their Primes

Centers

****Wilt Chamberlain (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****Kareem A Jabbar (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****Shaq (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****David Robinson (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

Center-Forwards

****Hakeem Olajuwon (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****Tim Duncan (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

Powerforwards

****Charles Barkley (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****Karl Malone (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)
****Bob Petit (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

Shooting Guards or Combo Guards

****Michael Jordan (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

Point Guards

****Magic Johnson (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

For These Last 5...If You Take Their Primes ages 22-32 then they would also appear in the (Top 20 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/-)

Smallforwards

***Julius Erving
***Larry Bird
***Elgin Baylor

Shooting Guards or Combo Guards

***Jerry West
***Oscar Robertson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*****Wilt and Jabbar would definetly be the Greatest Players If you talk about prime ages 22-32...Jordan close....or maybe right there if you consider level of teamates

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

****Only Players to be In The Top 10 All Time In EFF, PER and Statistical +/- are Michael Jordan and Charles Barkely as of now and if you include that off The Level of Their Teamates them 2 and Prime Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson would probably be THEE 4 MOST PRODUCTIVE PLAYERS of All Time...Probably The Best All Court Players of All Time (soon Lebron): Those That Have the Best Mixture of IMPACT, DOMINANCE and EFFICIENCY together...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***Kevin Garnett is One Most Likely to Join That Group of Top 17-20 Players in 3-5 years

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Kobe will establish himself as a Top 20-25 in the next 5 years or so aswell as ....

Wade 20-25 in the next 5-8 years

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**** Lebron James is the Only Plauer Right Now, other than Shaq and Duncan to have a Chance to be in the Top 5-10-15 GOATs


For Detail: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123375&page=8

[Laker4Lyfe]

:cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Lil Dez: "Sir Charles Barkley don't have no rings................. not one"


:lol:lol:lol

[donald_trump]

Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player ever, no doubt.

Hondo or Oscar cannot compare due to either the statistical edge Bryant holds over them, or the fact that he has more championships.

It's hard to believe that we have seen such a wonderful player evolve from the teen we saw enter the league in 96'. So raw, though even then everyone knew he had so much potential, though I don't think anyone expected a top 10 player ever.

Congratulations Kobe Bryant. He's a brilliant player.

[andgar923]

He aint top 10.

I thought he was top 30, not sure why people had him ranked so high to begin with.

He's around 25-28.

I wasn't impressed with his Finals performance overall.

He's too inconsistent and has many years in which he disappointed and left much to be desired for him to be top 10.

I think people love to make excuses for him and overlook his shortcomings while they magnify his achievements.

Now.... before people start crying, ranking him top 30 isn't a bad thing or hating. I did rank him top 10 based on his individual skills.

Some are gonna ask for a list, but its not something I've really analyzed and thought about in much detail. All I know is that Kobe aint a top 10 or 25.

Specially when there's players that are arguably as skilled, have accomplished as much, and have had just as big an impact if not more than he has.

So a top 10 is premature imo.

I might bump him up some more spots in the upcoming seasons, who knows.

[Laker4Lyfe]

He aint top 10.

I thought he was top 30, not sure why people had him ranked so high to begin with.

He's around 25-28.

I wasn't impressed with his Finals performance overall.

He's too inconsistent and has many years in which he disappointed and left much to be desired for him to be top 10.

I think people love to make excuses for him and overlook his shortcomings while they magnify his achievements.

Now.... before people start crying, ranking him top 30 isn't a bad thing or hating. I did rank him top 10 based on his individual skills.

Some are gonna ask for a list, but its not something I've really analyzed and thought about in much detail. All I know is that Kobe aint a top 10 or 25.

Specially when there's players that are arguably as skilled, have accomplished as much, and have had just as big an impact if not more than he has.

So a top 10 is premature imo.

I might bump him up some more spots in the upcoming seasons, who knows.
http://i40.tinypic.com/65zcs9.jpg

[D-Rose]

[B]Its dependant alot on reality which is shown in "Broken Down Stats" through EFF, PER and Statistical + / -




Put them in a numerical order. A 5 year old could tell us the best players at each postion.:rolleyes:

So you think that players should only be judged based on EFF or PER?:roll: :roll:
So you're basically saying let's throw CHAMPIONSHIPS, MVPs, etc out of the window and use some stats that some nerd made up??

You're pathetic.

How is LeBron already a Top 15 player? No one on this board would say that other than some moron like you. LBJ will be Top 15 when retired but not NOW, he hasn't even won a title GODDAMMIT. LeBron and Garnett over Kobe? :roll: :roll: Take a look at the accomplishments before the STATS ROFL.

Titles do matter, ask your poster boy. People will remember him for not winning it all not for being Top 10 in EFF or PER :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

honestly, I say you've lost any credibility known to man for saying LeBron is already Top 15.:oldlol:

Seriously, go back to playing the sudoku game mommy bought you.

[andgar923]

http://i40.tinypic.com/65zcs9.jpg

Baske it in.

I'm just replying to the thread.

If you don't agree (which I don't expect you too) I don't care, or at least post a good reply.

[D-Rose]

He aint top 10.

I thought he was top 30, not sure why people had him ranked so high to begin with.

He's around 25-28.

I wasn't impressed with his Finals performance overall.

He's too inconsistent and has many years in which he disappointed and left much to be desired for him to be top 10.

I think people love to make excuses for him and overlook his shortcomings while they magnify his achievements.

Now.... before people start crying, ranking him top 30 isn't a bad thing or hating. I did rank him top 10 based on his individual skills.

Some are gonna ask for a list, but its not something I've really analyzed and thought about in much detail. All I know is that Kobe aint a top 10 or 25.

Specially when there's players that are arguably as skilled, have accomplished as much, and have had just as big an impact if not more than he has.

So a top 10 is premature imo.

I might bump him up some more spots in the upcoming seasons, who knows.

Ladies and Gentlemen here is an UNBIASED OPINION!!!:rolleyes:

[andgar923]

Ladies and Gentlemen here is an UNBIASED OPINION!!!:rolleyes:

It actually is.

Let me guess.... you rank him at 10?

Many people have short memories and are quickly excited when he (or anybody for that matter) does something great. Yet they lose track of the overall picture and forget about other great players. They also forget of the many shortcomings that said player has.

And I fully understand, that every player has had his fair share of failures and victories.

But it is HOW these failures occurred that I focus on.

Some of you like to belittle West for not winning. But it wasn't because he didn't perform.

Barkley never won, but it wasn't because he didn't perform either.

The same can be said about those that WON.

Horry has multiple rings, and sure he contributed to those victories. But are his contributions greater than those of somebody that only won one, when we look at their overall contribution?

But let me guess.... I'm the 'biased' one?

[D-Rose]

It actually is.

Let me guess.... you rank him at 10?

Many people have short memories and are quickly excited when he (or anybody for that matter) does something great. Yet they lose track of the overall picture and forget about other great players. They also forget of the many shortcomings that said player has.

And I fully understand, that every player has had his fair share of failures and victories.

But it is HOW these failures occurred that I focus on.

Some of you like to belittle West for not winning. But it wasn't because he didn't perform.

Barkley never won, but it wasn't because he didn't perform either.

The same can be said about those that WON.

Horry has multiple rings, and sure he contributed to those victories. But are his contributions greater than those of somebody that only won one, when we look at their overall contribution?

But let me guess.... I'm the 'biased' one?

Of course you are going to focuse on his failures. 4/6 titles/finals. The two times he lost it was to two of the greatest defensive teams in a long long time.

Horry never averaged more than 10 PPG in the playoffs :oldlol: That's what you call a role player moron.

Kobe was a big part of the 3 titles on Shaq's team and this was cleary his title as THE MAN.

Most reasonable people on ISH think Kobe is Top ten now, and if not now then definetly at the end of his career.

Not to mention guys like JVG, Jon Barry, Michael Wilbon, Magic Johnson, Tim Legler, and James Worthy. All of them said today that he's Top 10 all time. Most of those guys have been players or coaches. I'll take their historical perspective and knowledge of the game over anyone on here.

[chopchop20]

He aint top 10.

I thought he was top 30, not sure why people had him ranked so high to begin with.

He's around 25-28.

I wasn't impressed with his Finals performance overall.

He's too inconsistent and has many years in which he disappointed and left much to be desired for him to be top 10.

I think people love to make excuses for him and overlook his shortcomings while they magnify his achievements.

Now.... before people start crying, ranking him top 30 isn't a bad thing or hating. I did rank him top 10 based on his individual skills.

Some are gonna ask for a list, but its not something I've really analyzed and thought about in much detail. All I know is that Kobe aint a top 10 or 25.

Specially when there's players that are arguably as skilled, have accomplished as much, and have had just as big an impact if not more than he has.

So a top 10 is premature imo.

I might bump him up some more spots in the upcoming seasons, who knows.

Oh well.... I think Kobe prefers having 4 rings than being on your mythical list. :rockon:

[indiefan23]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant

Jerry West moves down to #11.

yawn me out. Wheres Isiah being the only star on a team that should have one three titles, but ony got 2 back to back because he got injured in the finals?

And double yawn, winning a title does not change much of anything. If Kobe lost 4 games out of 7 would he officially not be a top 10 player? Titles are team awards and don't mean much of anything in terms of individual accomplishment. Kobe's a top 10 player by riding Shaq's coat tails to 3 titles, then being lucky that KG got hurt, Yao went down and the Magic beat Lebron by hitting half their 3's? All those things would have prevented Kobe winning, so menh to it all.

[momo]

It will be interesting to see what some of the dissenting voters here opinions look like in 3 or 4 years. He will surely have accomplished more by then.

I am not sure if I rank him top ten at this point. I do not want euphoria influencing my opinion too much. He is getting into some rare air and he is... 30? 31?

[D-Rose]

yawn me out. Wheres Isiah being the only star on a team that should have one three titles, but ony got 2 back to back because he got injured in the finals?

And double yawn, winning a title does not change much of anything. If Kobe lost 4 games out of 7 would he officially not be a top 10 player? Titles are team awards and don't mean much of anything in terms of individual accomplishment. Kobe's a top 10 player by riding Shaq's coat tails to 3 titles, then being lucky that KG got hurt, Yao went down and the Magic beat Lebron by hitting half their 3's? All those things would have prevented Kobe winning, so menh to it all.
Isiah was on one hell of a team. Rodman is the GOAT Rebounder. Laimbeer was tough as nails Dumars was his partner in crime. Replace Kobe on that team in place of Isiah, same results. Not to mention Adrian Dantley :oldlol:


Why are you saying comments that are already unproven?

Lakers 2-0 vs. Cavs

Lakers 2-0 vs. Celtics

Lakers 6-1 vs. Yao-Rockets (they matched up better without Yao IMO)

Kobe has gotten nearly every other award or made every other All-NBA list, this was what he was missing and it cements his legacy.

As if injuries haven't always changed the course of this sport :oldlol:

Duncan doesn't win in 99 if Ewing is healthy.

[rawimpact]

dude what season is this guy playing?

Top 15 player, this dude has been playing all-star basketball since season 2 IMO.

[Anaximandro1]

He just entered the top 15.Kobe has surpassed David Robinson,Bill Walton or Kevin Garnett,but there was and still is plenty of players FAR more accomplished than Kobe.

[B]-50

[Y2Gezee]

I think Andgar has some great points. Im not a Kobe hater, and I show my admiration for Duncan whenever possible (I probably like him and have rooted for him more than I have Shaq, depending on the times), but I put neither in my top 10 (though I struggle and sometimes flip flop on Duncan).

Titles speak volumes in the all time great discussion, but then other things even aside from statistics must be talked about too. I still have Dr. J and the Big O in the top 10 as while they have less titles, I think they are better players. Aside from that, anybody doubt Shaq could've carried them to 3 rings too, probably more.

Kobe Bryant is one of the most skilled and complete players ever, but I too think he can be inconsistent in certain aspects, especially in big series or games. Like when to take what the D gives him and not force and miss bad shots in adversity, overall offensive efficiency, defensively, leadership too. His performances in NBA finals over his career have pretty much left much to be desired, and besides game 1, I felt his performances were being overhyped against a team like Orlando, he wasn't bad (well besides late in game 3) but I think Pau was just as important. Not to mention that for most of his career he's struggled to use or trust teammates too and I think that's a big factor when looking at him as an individual leader if he didn't have Shaq and Phil (just like I'd look at what the hell would've happened to Jordan if not for Phil).

When it comes to Kobe, I just look at the fact that I'd prefer to build my team over Kobe with other players (including players that haven't won rings like a healthy Barkley, but I realize its hard to justify that) like Dr. J and Big O and I feel like I'd have even better results.

Still,one more Kobe or Duncan led ring would leave no doubt for them respectively. In my book. Still the way the media portrays him as a top 5 guy, well he'll have to go on a tear for me to see him there. Just like Shaq is underrated by the media, he's getting very overrated. I watched on Mike and Mike last week where they said no way he doesn't surpass Shaq in legacy if he already hadn't, well I look at it as no possible way he can. Shaq throughout his career was just a better player.

[indiefan23]

Isiah was on one hell of a team. Rodman is the GOAT Rebounder. Laimbeer was tough as nails Dumars was his partner in crime. Replace Kobe on that team in place of Isiah, same results. Not to mention Adrian Dantley :oldlol:

Menh to you listing the top scorers you saw from



Why are you saying comments that are already unproven?

Lakers 2-0 vs. Cavs

Lakers 2-0 vs. Celtics

Lakers 6-1 vs. Yao-Rockets (they matched up better without Yao IMO)[quote]

Ha, thats just dumb. You're using regular season BS and stating Yao, who was owning LA, hurt his team. Games without KG and one where he was prolly hurting. This is my whole point: basing everything on 1 or 2 wins is silly. The cavs were a totally different team then the ones who played LA in the season. Whats the point, your kool aid defies logic.

[quote]Kobe has gotten nearly every other award or made every other All-NBA list, this was what he was missing and it cements his legacy.

As if injuries haven't always changed the course of this sport :oldlol:

Duncan doesn't win in 99 if Ewing is healthy.

I dun care, you take things based on comp. This title had weak comp. Just cuz duncan's was in 99 doesn't change that. It just means Duncan has a weak title too. Whats your point? Just because other people were stupid before is no justification for you being dumb now.

[KobeRules24]

Menh to you listing the top scorers you saw from


[quote]Why are you saying comments that are already unproven?

Lakers 2-0 vs. Cavs

Lakers 2-0 vs. Celtics

Lakers 6-1 vs. Yao-Rockets (they matched up better without Yao IMO)[quote]

Ha, thats just dumb. You're using regular season BS and stating Yao, who was owning LA, hurt his team. Games without KG and one where he was prolly hurting. This is my whole point: basing everything on 1 or 2 wins is silly. The cavs were a totally different team then the ones who played LA in the season. Whats the point, your kool aid defies logic.



I dun care, you take things based on comp. This title had weak comp. Just cuz duncan's was in 99 doesn't change that. It just means Duncan has a weak title too. Whats your point? Just because other people were stupid before is no justification for you being dumb now.

hey how does it taste?

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs105.snc1/4589_89777359097_508459097_1796490_955214_n.jpg

:oldlol:

[jrong]

I'm inclined to agree with this. It's arguable, but, yeah, I'd have to say he's just inside the top ten. Don't know if I ever see him cracking the top five, though.

[Jacks3]

Yup. The haters can't say **** now. :oldlol: Clowns :oldlol:
Kobe Bryant was impressive throughout the NBA Finals, averaging 32.4 points against the Magic. His 162 total points were fourth-most all-time for an individual player in a five-game finals series.:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[23ajay]

kobe is definitly in the top ten players of all time

[Silverbullit]

I think there never will be an official top 10 players list.
Atleast no list agreed by everyone :D

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Kobe is not Top 10. Winning only 1 Ring as the Leader does not make you Top 10.

And Kareem is #2. #5 is way too low. The guy has 6 Rings, 6 MVP's and is a 19x All-Star. #5 is way too low. He is a Top 3 Lock.

he was co-leader of 3 other titles. not bad, not bad at all. now go fck ur hating assss self.

[seanlakers]

I think there never will be an official top 10 players list.
Atleast no list agreed by everyone :D

Yep.

[poido123]

kobe is definitly in the top ten players of all time

According to your extensive viewing of basketball during the year 2009 :lol: , go do a few history lessons, he isnt even top 2 as a Laker which says alot...Kareem and Chamberlain would be in front of Kobe, some would argue Magic too...

[big baller]

Wow that list looks terrible to me imo, Kareem should be #2, Hakeem top 6, and so on...but thats not what this thread is about, Congrats to the Lakers and Kobe, here is to another one next year!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will smoke a cigar :pimp: in the memory of Red.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Where you guys rank Karl Malone and the all time steals and assist leader, Mr. John Stockon in this list?

[IGOTGAME]

Where you guys rank Karl Malone and the all time steals and assist leader, Mr. John Stockon in this list?

Stockton is around 20-25 for me..

[23ajay]

for me stockton is around mid 20s

[Carbine]

Still,one more Kobe or Duncan led ring would leave no doubt for them respectively. In my book.

This is just stupid.

Why would one more ring let by Duncan leave no doubt for you? Four isn't enough? Do you know how many players have led FOUR or more championship teams as the undisputed best player on their team?

Russell, Jordan....the list ends there.

Why does Duncan have to win another one as the best player? He's proven enough as far as winning goes. Best winning percentage out of all pro sport teams since he's entered the league, has the most rings as the best player since joining the league, etc.

As for Kobe, I can see this reasoning... the man has one championship as the leader, but he also has a three-peat under his belt where he was the clearly the two guy, and in some cases the 1.b to Shaq' 1.a....so he doesn't really have much to prove either, though one more can certainly solidify himself, and if he goes on a mini-dynaasty with these Lakers, he'll be in Magic & Bird territory as far as legacy goes.

[Peter Griffin]

:lol :lol :lol :lol At Folks who are saying Kobe is not top 25, or is between 25-30, when they truley know he is top 12!


I Haven't seen this much jealously bitterness of false made up beleifs since Sarah Jessics Parker said Halle Berry wasnt sexy!

[Mdog1]

I'd say he is close if he isn't. Maybe 11, but personally i'd put him at about 10.

[Joey Zaza]

Impossible to rate now. Pretty hard to rate a player historically until they are pretty close to the end. Shaq and duncan can first really be fairly discussed - historically - now. A little early for Duncan.

That being said -- kobe's fans have earned this day. So, for today, he is soo clearly and obviously TOP 10 EVER!!!

[tmnt mask]

i would wait until his career is over to start comparing.

[Kingwillball]

But forum posters have all the answers right?! LOL ... based on what criteria? I think its fair to say that Magic Johnson knows a little more than you guys ever will.


Magic is a grade A homer. Lets flip the script for a sec. Imagine if U will Cavs vs Magic were a finals matchup and Lebron played the way he did and put up the numbers that he did now imagine if u will Lebron had Kobe's cast and they won series..Media would be talking about Lebron's individual performance as one of the greatest ever since the team won. Kobe had a very good finals, Lebron just did everything a little better against Magic.

[TheOne]

IF Lakers win the next 4 chips. i.e 5 in a row, will Kobe be viewed as the GOAT?

[Peter Griffin]

i would wait until his career is over to start comparing.

Not really, if your All time status, then your All time status, no if and or butts about it!

[Mikaiel]

I might put at him No. 10. But I don't see how he could end up in the top 8. He'd need at least 2 more titles/Finals MVPs.

[1987_Lakers]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?pollId=72963

[Mikaiel]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?pollId=72963

Top 5 ? :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Xsatyr]

Top 5 ? :hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:Well at least it is not winning but it has way too many votes. I have kobe top 10 but can see the arguement for 10-15.

[Mor'Fiyah]

Magic is a grade A homer. Lets flip the script for a sec. Imagine if U will Cavs vs Magic were a finals matchup and Lebron played the way he did and put up the numbers that he did now imagine if u will Lebron had Kobe's cast and they won series..Media would be talking about Lebron's individual performance as one of the greatest ever since the team won. Kobe had a very good finals, Lebron just did everything a little better against Magic.

So Magic is a homer. Ok fine. What about the three other analysts?

And lets not throw too many hypotheticals out here. But, had Lebron beat the Magic in the finals instead of Kobe the media would be talking about how incredible a player Lebron is at such a young age (and they would be right), how he is arguably the best player in the game today (presumably because he beat Kobe to get there...), and how he legitimately has a chance to be the one of the greatest ever if not the greatest ever (and they would be right). Individual-wise... sure Lebron dominated the Magic statistically, but unless he actually beats them, it pretty much looks like the Magic decided to force Lebron to beat them by himself and he couldn't. They could not use the same strategy with Kobe and they said as much. His teammates were just too good. Often thats the difference between how you are percieved from one season to the next.

[Johnni Gade]

List is agreeable. Gj Kobe winning the championship. With some help from fisher....

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

for you RESEARCH GURUS....
I would be curious to know how many players in NBA history have ALL of the following:

4 rings
1 MVP
1 Finals MVP
10 time All-Star (or however many Kobe has now)
10 time All-Defense (or however many Kobe has now).

Russell, MJ, Kareem, who else? Cousy? West? Shaq? TD?

[NJQ]

This is just stupid.

Why would one more ring let by Duncan leave no doubt for you? Four isn't enough? Do you know how many players have led FOUR or more championship teams as the undisputed best player on their team?

Russell, Jordan....the list ends there.

Why does Duncan have to win another one as the best player? He's proven enough as far as winning goes. Best winning percentage out of all pro sport teams since he's entered the league, has the most rings as the best player since joining the league, etc.

As for Kobe, I can see this reasoning... the man has one championship as the leader, but he also has a three-peat under his belt where he was the clearly the two guy, and in some cases the 1.b to Shaq' 1.a....so he doesn't really have much to prove either, though one more can certainly solidify himself, and if he goes on a mini-dynaasty with these Lakers, he'll be in Magic & Bird territory as far as legacy goes.

What this guy said.:applause:

[KenneBell]

for you RESEARCH GURUS....
I would be curious to know how many players in NBA history have ALL of the following:

4 rings
1 MVP
1 Finals MVP
10 time All-Star (or however many Kobe has now)
10 time All-Defense (or however many Kobe has now).

Russell, MJ, Kareem, who else? Cousy? West? Shaq? TD?
Kobe has 9 all-D teams. So the only ones in his category are MJ, Kareem, and Duncan. Pretty good company.

[NY-Knicks]

let me help you out here BleedinPurpleTwo;
Kobe Bryant
4

[phoenix18]

I know he isnt top ten. All of you guys can stop getting caught up in the moment. I say 15-20 range. For me to say top ten is disrespectful of the other legends that played this game.
Better Career than Kobe:
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Big O
Dr.J
Moses Malone
Shaq
Wilt
Isiah
West

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

[QUOTE=NY-Knicks]let me help you out here BleedinPurpleTwo;
Kobe Bryant
4

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe has 9 all-D teams. So the only ones in his category are MJ, Kareem, and Duncan. Pretty good company.

that's all? are you sure?
surely Bill Russell has all those accolades? maybe he was never Finals MVP?

[Mikaiel]

who else has his accolades?

Shaq doesn't. Does this mean Kobe > Shaq ?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I know he isnt top ten. All of you guys can stop getting caught up in the moment. I say 15-20 range. For me to say top ten is disrespectful of the other legends that played this game.
Better Career than Kobe:
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Big O
Dr.J
Moses Malone
Shaq
Wilt
Isiah
West

Isiah? definitely NOT.
Moses and Dr. J are also very questionable. Jerry West puts Kobe in top 6 all-time and a survey of NBA pundits put Kobe as the #2 SG all-time, in front of West.

[Mikaiel]

that's all? are you sure?
surely Bill Russell has all those accolades? maybe he was never Finals MVP?

There were no Defensive teams and Finals MVP back then.

[phoenix18]

Shaq doesn't. Does this mean Kobe > Shaq ?
I dont put that much value in awards. Kobe shouldnt have been first team all defense this year. Most awards is just about popularity.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

There were no Defensive teams and Finals MVP back then.

thanks. that would explain Russell...and probably Big O and Cousy, too.

[NY-Knicks]

nice, but that did not answer the question.
who else has his accolades?
you didnt know exactly how many defensive teams and all-star teams etc he had. im too lazy to find out who's his company.