Is Oscar Robertson the most overrated player in NBA history?!

[Fatal9]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well he was defintley the second best player on the '71 bucks, but I get your point. I agree that he's overrated, a great player, but why some rank him top 10 is beyond me.

[phoenix18]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.
You need to stop snorting,drinking,smoking,injecting what ever you are on. Rehab should be number one on your top ten list. Come on, Oscar is one of, if not the greatest all around players to ever play. First NBA player to use the fadeaway and head fake. His impact on the game is tremendous, on and off the court.

[TheAnchorman]

Agreed, he is top 20 in my book. Well, maybe top 15. His accomplishments are amazing, but only in the context of the modern era. His only championship came when riding piggyback with Alcindor.

[Peter Griffin]

He is the only guy to ever avg a triple double!

[Fatal9]

Well he was defintley the second best player on the '71 bucks, but I get your point. I agree that he's overrated, a great player, but why some rank him top 10 is beyond me.
People need to start being ridiculed for doing this. It's about as absurd as ranking someone like Kobe in the top 5 right now.

[KenneBell]

Yeah, he's is kind of overrated for those triple doubles. He's very similar to David Robinson in my opinion. Great statistically but his teams never really got there until they had that HOF-worthy young player come in.

[truethat23]

Oscar Robertson is NO WHERE CLOSE to being overrated! Not the greatest, but clearly one of the greats to play this game.

[23ajay]

oscar robertson is overated the only thing that is spectaculer was average a triple double a whole season

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.

[MMM]

I don't fault him for winning only 1 championship. He played in the toughest era to win one with the Celtics winning 95% of the tiles in his era. Greats like Wilt, West, Baylor, ect didn't do much better.

[Fatal9]

Oscar's PER in the great triple double season: 27.6 :oldlol:

Apparently the greatest statistical achievement in NBA history couldn't even match Kobe's 35 ppg season.

To be clear, steals, blocks and turnovers weren't counted. However, this probably helps Oscar as most ballhandling guards average more turnovers than steals (even true for Jordan who always led the league in steals), so it's not hurting him by any means.

No one is dissing the era but these stats really need to be looked at in context and pace needs to be factored in. If we are not doing that then nearly every major player in the 60s has a statistical case to be GOAT over Jordan.

[lakers_forever]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.

:applause:

[Fatal9]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.
Thanks for proving my point. Those two are not on the top 10 lists of 99.9% of basketball fans. Oscar gets a by though?! Why? Even though Malone was more impressive statistically and had more playoff success on his own. No one is calling them "marginal", it's just he has no case to be on top 10 lists. It's fair to say he is top 20 though.

He gets by on purely stats and pace adjusted, they aren't even that spectacular.

[ShaqAttack3234]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.

It's not just that he didn't win a championship as the best player, he didn't have much team success in general. And of course he was a beast, but who could he possibly rank above among the following players?

Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Bird, Hakeem, Russell, Duncan, Kobe and West? He simply isn't a top 10 player of all time as many claim he is.

[lakers_forever]

Oscar's PER in the great triple double season: 27.6 :oldlol:

Apparently the greatest statistical achievement in NBA history couldn't even match Kobe's 35 ppg season.

To be clear, steals, blocks and turnovers weren't counted. However, this probably helps Oscar as most ballhandling guards average more turnovers than steals (even true for Jordan who always led the league in steals), so it's not hurting him by any means.

No one is dissing the era but these stats really need to be looked at in context and pace needs to be factored in. If we are not doing that then nearly every major player in the 60s has a statistical case to be GOAT over Jordan.

No SPG and BPG hurts his PER. Anyway I hate that crap. Fock PER

[Kingwillball]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.


he is better than Kobe that is for sure.

[Kingwillball]

oscar robertson is overated the only thing that is spectaculer was average a triple double a whole season


do u even read your posts before u submit them ?

[Peter Griffin]

Oscar's PER in the great triple double season: 27.6 :oldlol:

Apparently the greatest statistical achievement in NBA history couldn't even match Kobe's 35 ppg season.

To be clear, steals, blocks and turnovers weren't counted. However, this probably helps Oscar as most ballhandling guards average more turnovers than steals (even true for Jordan who always led the league in steals), so it's not hurting him by any means.

No one is dissing the era but these stats really need to be looked at in context and pace needs to be factored in. If we are not doing that then nearly every major player in the 60s has a statistical case to be GOAT over Jordan.

But at the same time, we can't just blame him for putting up crazy numbers in a fast pace era, because, what about the players he played against?! Why didn't any of them avg a triple double or the GOAT all-round game like him? Hundreds of players in his decade, yet he's the only one playing at that level?! We should just leave, pace, number of teams, height, rules, alone and just flat out rank what they have done on black and white paper and call it a day!

[meh]

He is the only guy to ever avg a triple double!

This is the biggest reason why he's overrated.

If the NBA today played as freely and loosely as they do in the Robertson era, players like Lebron and Kidd would also be having triple-double seasons.

[BlazersDozen]

Dan Marino...Most overrated of all time?

GTFO

[Gifted Mind]

He was the most overrated. But if you guys keep this up, he'll be one of the most underrated.


Bill Russell called Oscar Robertson the "GOAT".

[phoenix18]

But at the same time, we can't just blame him for putting up crazy numbers in a fast pace era, because, what about the players he played against?! Why didn't any of them avg a triple double or the GOAT all-round game like him? Hundreds of players in his decade, yet he's the only one playing at that level?! We should just leave, pace, number of teams, height, rules, alone and just flat out rank what they have done on black and white paper and call it a day!
:applause: Exactly. He played against Wilt,Russell,West,Baylor and many others. No one did it before and no one has done it since. How does that make him overrated?

[Fatal9]

But at the same time, we can't just blame him for putting up crazy numbers in a fast pace era, because, what about the players he played against?! Why didn't any of them avg a triple double or the GOAT all-round game like him? Hundreds of players in his decade, yet he's the only one playing at that level?! We should just leave, pace, number of teams, height, rules, alone and just flat out rank what they have done on black and white paper and call it a day!
All of them DID have ridiculous stats. Players 6'4-6'6 averaged 10+ boards, Baylor at 6'5 grabbed 20 boards a game while scoring 30. You also have to consider when people say he played on "crappy teams" (even though he had a HOFer in Lucas later on), it provided him the unique opportunity of getting these type of stats on .500 type teams. In fact you can clearly see a trend with the league pace decreasing as being proportional to his rebounding (also decreasing).

He was clearly a great all around player and very unique for the time but people need to stop using his stats as a ticket to the top 10, when others don't get the same advantage. So either your top 10 is going to be filled with players who have the best combination of legacies, or players like Oscar, Robinson, Malone etc.

[ShaqAttack3234]

By the way if you adjust Oscar Robertson's triple double seasons to 2002-2003 league averages and give him 40 mpg then he'd average 21.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 9.2 apg, 49.6 FG%. Still very impressive, but it shows you what just adjusting pace and minutes can do. Granted he may have played 41 or 42 mpg anyway today instead of 40, but 40 mpg is a lot anyway so that's fair.

In case anyone is wondering I chose 2002-2003 because it was the last season before the hand-checking rule change not including the 2003-2004 season when scoring was unusually low.

[Huey Freeman]

Terrible thread.

Oscar Robertson is GOAT.

[Fatal9]

By the way if you adjust Oscar Robertson's triple double seasons to 2002-2003 league averages and give him 40 mpg then he'd average 21.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 9.2 apg, 49.6 FG%. Still very impressive, but it shows you what just adjusting pace and minutes can do. Granted he may have played 41 or 42 mpg anyway today instead of 40, but 40 mpg is a lot anyway so that's fair.
Which is statistically similar to Kidd's 19/9/6 season and a couple of his other ones. Not as high FG% though. Still, is that really better than Lebron's season this year? Robinson's prime seasons? Malone's? Kobe's? Shaq's? etc etc

Realistically if I had to predict Oscar's statline today, it would be closer to 25 ppg/ 6 rpg / 8 apg on 48-50%.

[Peter Griffin]

All of them DID have ridiculous stats. Players 6'4-6'6 averaged 10+ boards, Baylor at 6'5 grabbed 20 boards a game while scoring 30. You also have to consider when people say he played on "crappy teams" (even though he had a HOFer in Lucas later on), it provided him the unique opportunity of getting these type of stats on .500 type teams. In fact you can clearly see a trend with the league pace decreasing as being proportional to his rebounding (also decreasing).

He was clearly a great all around player and very unique for the time but people need to stop using his stats as a ticket to the top 10, when others don't get the same advantage. So either your top 10 is going to be filled with players who have the best combination of legacies, or players like Oscar, Robinson, Malone etc.

I see where your coming from, but if we are going to discredit him because of the pace and era, then we must discredit everyone from that time! Then if we are getting into a discredit war, then this era has to be becase of the rules (hand check, 3sec defensive) and then, we will just have an all out discredit fest!

[andgar923]

So I guess we should take Kobe off the top 10 since he played with Shaq?

And take away almost every player today's accomplishments, since they played in an era that was adjusted for stat padding, right?

Also.... we should take into consideration that some players didn't play with the 3pointer.

[kshutts1]

He was a fantastic player, as shown by averaging a triple-double for a whole season, something no one else has ever done.

However, there is a solid point brought up against him...
Why is it that any other player must be judged using their personal statistics AS WELL AS team success? Oscar seems to be the only star to EVER be measured without taking success into account.

I am not trying to take anything away from Oscar.. you can quote pace all you want, but the fact is that no one, even in that faster paced era, averaged a triple double. If you had to liken him to someone today, I'd have to go with Lebron in Kobe's body... Lebron is the most all-around offensively gifted player since Magic, who was it since Oscar... so it's only logical to compare their statistics. I imagine Oscar would average Lebron #s with a few more assists, a few less points.

Anyway, Griffin was also right... if we start to discount something (other than placing a premium on team success -- have the same criteria across the board, guys) such as an era, etc, then it will turn into a "discredit war".

Oscar was a great, great all-around player, but without the team success I just can't place him inside the top 10.

[andgar923]

Many have stated that Oscar could've avg a triple double for more than a season, since they didn't keep track of some stats for most of his career.

[IGOTGAME]

So I guess we should take Kobe off the top 10 since he played with Shaq?

And take away almost every player today's accomplishments, since they played in an era that was adjusted for stat padding, right?

Also.... we should take into consideration that some players didn't play with the 3pointer.

its just not that big of an accomplishment...he did a lot on bad teams. That isnt enough for me to put him in the top 10 over a couple of people. Many people commenting on Robinson never saw him play even 40+ games(half a season) but feel they know all there is to know about him...All I know is that he wasnt top 3 in the league a lot of those years in the NBA and he seemed pretty ball dominant from what I gather. Im not just gonna assume he could mold his game to fit around different talents as the #1 option.

People never gave kobe the benefit of the doubt in this same situation and his skill set is as polished as one could imagine. Im not going to give him the benefit of the doubt and 30+ triple double is one of the most least impressive sounding stats to me in my life. Either the numbers are inflated and not akin to what a triple double was in the 80's, 90's 00's...or the numbers are not inflated and he was ball dominant and didnt allow his teammates to do enough to be successful. Either way im not impressed to the point where he has to be at least #10.

[kshutts1]

Many have stated that Oscar could've avg a triple double for more than a season, since they didn't keep track of some stats for most of his career.
He actually averaged a triple-double over the span of 3 seasons... only once for the whole season, but for the span of 3 years

[OldSchoolBBall]

By the way if you adjust Oscar Robertson's triple double seasons to 2002-2003 league averages and give him 40 mpg then he'd average 21.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 9.2 apg, 49.6 FG%. Still very impressive, but it shows you what just adjusting pace and minutes can do. Granted he may have played 41 or 42 mpg anyway today instead of 40, but 40 mpg is a lot anyway so that's fair.

Individual scoring is not linearly correlated with team/league pace. Oscar could undoubtedly put up 25-27 ppg if he came up today. His line would be more like 26-27 pts/6.5-7 reb/8.5-9.5 ast.

[kshutts1]

its just not that big of an accomplishment...he did a lot on bad teams. That isnt enough for me to put him in the top 10 over a couple of people. Many people commenting on Robinson never saw him play even 40+ games(half a season) but feel they know all there is to know about him...All I know is that he wasnt top 3 in the league a lot of those years in the NBA and he seemed pretty ball dominant from what I gather. Im not just gonna assume he could mold his game to fit around different talents as the #1 option.

People never gave kobe the benefit of the doubt in this same situation and his skill set is as polished as one could imagine. Im not going to give him the benefit of the doubt and 30+ triple double is one of the most least impressive sounding stats to me in my life. Either the numbers are inflated and not akin to what a triple double was in the 80's, 90's 00's...or the numbers are not inflated and he was ball dominant and didnt allow his teammates to do enough to be successful. Either way im not impressed to the point where he has to be at least #10.
A LOT of ballhogs have failed to average a triple double, or even come close...

[indiefan23]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.

Almost all the stars from that era are over rated. Actually, the role players are less over rated then the stars. No one ever makes the claim that the guys who were beat up on could hack it today at all, just the guys who padded their stats by abusing them.

[Showtime]

Individual play is why he's considered top 10, with some people who actually watched and played with him putting him in the conversation of GOAT. People tend to look purely at team success without context, which is moronic. The best argument that can be made against him is that he should have reached the playoffs more often. But the best player he played with before Kareem was probably Jerry Lucas, who admitted he didn't put in max effort during that time and there was noted team chemistry issues between guys and the team.

And on the topic of his individual stats: yes, pace played a role, but then nobody else during that time was able to do what he did either. Also, they didn't give out assists as willingly as they do now, with a notable example being Chris Paul who gets an assists even after his teammate makes several moves and scores.

Plus, he played during an era that didn't have the 3 point line, so the floor wasn't as spread.

[IGOTGAME]

A LOT of ballhogs have failed to average a triple double, or even come close...

and just because something hasnt been done means its desirable? I didnt see other guards averaging 30/20 but people dont put Baylor in the top 5-10

[chitownsfinest]

Individual scoring is not linearly correlated with team/league pace. Oscar could undoubtedly put up 25-27 ppg if he came up today. His line would be more like 26-27 pts/6.5-7 reb/8.5-9.5 ast.
Exactly! Great Scorers will always find ways to score regardless of pace. MJ only averaged 2 points less per game in 96 from what he averaged in 93 despite the average pace going down from 96.8 to 91.8 in that span.

[justin43]

Oscar Robertson may not be as overrated as implied, but he is overrated in the fact that Oscar has no business being in the all time top 10 list.

[indiefan23]

Individual play is why he's considered top 10, with some people who actually watched and played with him putting him in the conversation of GOAT. People tend to look purely at team success without context, which is moronic. The best argument that can be made against him is that he should have reached the playoffs more often. But the best player he played with before Kareem was probably Jerry Lucas, who admitted he didn't put in max effort during that time and there was noted team chemistry issues between guys and the team.

And on the topic of his individual stats: yes, pace played a role, but then nobody else during that time was able to do what he did either. Also, they didn't give out assists as willingly as they do now, with a notable example being Chris Paul who gets an assists even after his teammate makes several moves and scores.

Plus, he played during an era that didn't have the 3 point line, so the floor wasn't as spread.

And the players who couldn't run funn out for 30 MPG? They factor in...?

[indiefan23]

and just because something hasnt been done means its desirable? I didnt see other guards averaging 30/20 but people dont put Baylor in the top 5-10

Baylor was much closer to 40/20 over two seasons.

I'm willing to offer this. The list of the top 10 'best' basketball players of all time is the most arbitrary politically influenced list in sports.

[andredagiant]

No matter what era you played in, you still played in the NBA, and to not only dominate others by scoring, but also with rebounds and assists, well, it's damn impressive, plus have you heard other NBA players talk about him? I forgot who this was but I'm quoting this, "Greatness is when you know exactly what the player is going to do, but you still can't stop them, that's Oscar Robertson." Also you have to think about the fact he wasn't a big fella, though I have to admit, I can't see him averaging those numbers today, I still think he would manage 25, 7, 7 for sure. Scoring? His ways of scoring was innovative back in those days, rebounds? lil guy gettin those rebounds over trees, impressive, and assists? it's not just about passing it to people, it's about passing it to the right people in the right spot at the right time on the floor for them to score. No matter what, the BIG O is one of the greatest:bowdown:

[Niquesports]

oscar robertson is overated the only thing that is spectaculer was average a triple double a whole season


Sure he is overrated Im sure many players have avg a Triple double for a season. Thats nothing very easy to do.

[cdbleb]

He was more dominant all around offensively than any player you can name in the history of the league (Michael Jordan included)...Not overrated at all in my opinion. IF it were so easy to to what he was doing in that era then why was he the only guy to do it? There is nothing anyone you named can do or have done that wasnt done before except West winning the Finals MVP in a losing effort. Oscar didnt just dominate once though, he did it on a regular basis year after year.

[IGOTGAME]

He was more dominant all around offensively than any player you can name in the history of the league (Michael Jordan included)...Not overrated at all in my opinion. IF it were so easy to to what he was doing in that era then why was he the only guy to do it? There is nothing anyone you named can do or have done that wasnt done before except West winning the Finals MVP in a losing effort. Oscar didnt just dominate once though, he did it on a regular basis year after year.

so what was you favorite Oscar Robertson game? what is something he did one game that made you think he was amazing(give me a play)?

People here are a lot older than me if they were sitting back and chillin out watching Big O play...

[D-Rose]

Does anyone think that if you put Jason Kidd in that era it's still a Trip Dub? He got pretty close to one in today's day and age.

[greymatter]

So he's overrated because he couldn't win championships as the main guy on his team against the Bill Russell Celtics or Wilt's sixers?

Stupidest thread ever.

[Niquesports]

and just because something hasnt been done means its desirable? I didnt see other guards averaging 30/20 but people dont put Baylor in the top 5-10


I would think anyone that has any knowledge of the history of the game would have no problem putting Baylor in the Top 10

[Roundball_Rock]

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

This alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.


Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Which is ironic since people whine about Kobe having Shaq, Pippen having Jordan. Pippen has 6 rings, Kobe 4 yet Oscar's 1 ring is not denigrated like Pip's or 3 of Kobe's.


Thanks for proving my point. Those two are not on the top 10 lists of 99.9% of basketball fans. Oscar gets a by though?! Why? Even though Malone was more impressive statistically and had more playoff success on his own.

Exactly. K. Malone would hands down be top 10 all-time--if he won a championship. K. Malone made it to the NBA finals 3 times, the conference finals 6 times, 50+ games 12 times, 60+ thrice, and made the playoffs every single season of his career. All that is missing as far as his team accomplishments go is a ring. His individual accomplishments are as better than top 10 players like Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe.


So he's overrated because he couldn't win championships as the main guy on his team against the Bill Russell Celtics or Wilt's sixers?

No. See, West, Jerry. Oscar is overrated because he could win more than 50 games only once until he paired with Kareem--whose early years are better than the early years of anybody in league history. Kareem took a 27 win expansion team stocked with scrubs and made them 56 game winners who made it to the conference finals as a rookie. The next season Oscar arrived and they won 66 games and the title but not all of that 10 game improvement was obviously due to Oscar. Some of it was due to Kareem having a year under his belt.

Oscar=great player but has no business being in the top 10 of all-time. He is easily top 20 and probably top 15.

[Niquesports]

This alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.
Im sure many players would only have 1 or no rings if they played in the Great Celtic era also cant see Hakeem 's Houston team beating Russ, cant see Jordans Bulls team beating Russ and so on

Which is ironic since people whine about Kobe having Shaq, Pippen having Jordan. Pippen has 6 rings, Kobe 4 yet Oscar's 1 ring is not denigrated like Pip's or 3 of Kobe's.
What i think is ironic is that kareem never won a title without a top 5 PG does that take away from kareems greatness?
Exactly. K. Malone would hands down be top 10 all-time--if he won a championship. K. Malone made it to the NBA finals 3 times, the conference finals 6 times, 50+ games 12 times, 60+ thrice, and made the playoffs every single season of his career. All that is missing as far as his team accomplishments go is a ring. His individual accomplishments are as better than top 10 players like Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe.

I think If Malone had lead the Jazz to at least to titles he would be ranked over Duncan and Barkley on par with Hakeem.

No. See, West, Jerry. Oscar is overrated because he could win more than 50 games only once until he paired with Kareem--whose early years are better than the early years of anybody in league history. Kareem took a 27 win expansion team stocked with scrubs and made them 56 game winners who made it to the conference finals as a rookie. The next season Oscar arrived and they won 66 games and the title but not all of that 10 game improvement was obviously due to Oscar. Some of it was due to Kareem having a year under his belt.

HOw many title did Kareem win in LA before Magic ?
0 Maybe it was Oscars floor leadership that turned a playoff team into a title team.
Oscar=great player but has no business being in the top 10 of all-time. He is easily top 20 and probably top 15.

Russ
Wilt
Kareem
MAgic
MJ
BIrd
These are the only players in History that I would fairly say were flat out better than Oscar cant name 4 more and take it serious.

[fadeaway3]

People need to start being ridiculed for doing this. It's about as absurd as ranking someone like Kobe in the top 10 right now.

Fixed.

[32jazz]

No. See, West, Jerry. Oscar is overrated because he could win more than 50 games only once until he paired with Kareem--whose early years are better than the early years of anybody in league history. Kareem took a 27 win expansion team stocked with scrubs and made them 56 game winners who made it to the conference finals as a rookie. The next season Oscar arrived and they won 66 games and the title but not all of that 10 game improvement was obviously due to Oscar. Some of it was due to Kareem having a year under his belt.

Oscar=great player but has no business being in the top 10 of all-time. He is easily top 20 and probably top 15.

No I think West is more overrated than Big O has ever been. When Oscar Robertson played his last season with the Bucks they won 59(-lost 23) games & lost the NBA Finals in 7(Celtics). The season after, with basically the same team sans Roberston, they could only win 38 games ( a 21 game drop) & actually missed the Playoffs leading to a disgruntled Kareem who wasn't used to losing/didn't like Milwaukee to begin demanding a trade which he eventually got. Kareem never got seriously close to the Finals again in L.A. neither until Magic showed up four seasons after KAJ's arrival.


Kareem still cannot(not to hurt someone's feelings I suspect) say who was the greater G that he played with Oscar or Magic. (Though I am certain he had more fun with Magic as he wasn't quite the overbearing perfectionist nor as cranky as Big O was).

Yes, the pure numbers are inflated a bit ,but Kareem could attest to the Big O's Greatess.

[Duncan21formvp]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.

I agree with you here.

[nbastatus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOBkjAb1k4g&feature=related
how is this guy good?
any players in the nba would destroy him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was more dominant all around offensively than any player you can name in the history of the league (Michael Jordan included

Now that's just ridiculous. When Jordan was put at PG in the late 80's he averaged nearly 30 points with a triple double. He finished the season averaging 32.5, 8 and 8 on 54% shooting and 2.9 steals per game. When Jordan was putting up his best scoring numbers he averaged over 37 ppg.


Russ
Wilt
Kareem
MAgic
MJ
BIrd
These are the only players in History that I would fairly say were flat out better than Oscar cant name 4 more and take it serious.

Shaq and Hakeem were both better than Oscar. Hands down. Kobe and Ducan as well.

[bizil]

Now that's just ridiculous. When Jordan was put at PG in the late 80's he averaged nearly 30 points with a triple double. He finished the season averaging 32.5, 8 and 8 on 54% shooting and 2.9 steals per game. When Jordan was putting up his best scoring numbers he averaged over 37 ppg.



Shaq and Hakeem were both better than Oscar. Hands down. Kobe and Ducan as well.


Agreed! I think the top ten players in NBA history with all things considered (talent, numbers, acheivements, longevity) are:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Russell
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

About four or five years ago I think Big O, West, and Doc were in the top ten. But I feel Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan eclipsed them. But if you are picking the top two teams of all time by position I would go

PG- Magic
SG- MJ
SF- Bird (Lebron is coming!)
PF- Duncan
C- Kareem

PG- Big O
SG- Kobe
SF- Dr. J (Lebron is coming!)
PF- Barkley (you could easily say Malone but Chuck did enough to earn the spot)
C- Wilt

Hell the third team would be

PG- Isiah
SG- West
SF- Baylor
PF- Malone
C- Russell

So Big O still in my mind is the second best point of all time and is not overrated. At 6'5 220 he revolutionized the game. There were other guys his size that couldn't do the things he did. Those guys at the time were 3's and 4's. If you are ahead of the game and revoltionize anything u can't be overrated. When I think overrated I think not deserving of the accolades you get. Anybody who thinks the Big O isn't deserving then they need to be smacked! Now if you think say Isiah or Frazier is better then that's your opinion and logical. But that doesn't mean Big O is overrated it just means that you think Zeke or Clyde is better.

But every versatile guy that can play 1, 2, or 3 at the highest level have the Big O blueprint. Mike, Kobe, Lebron, Pippen, Penny, G Hill, and T Mac all have the Big O in them. Magic could play 1,2,3,4, and some five. I'm sure Big O could have run 1-4 easy back in the day. Magic had the Big O blueprint as well. Kidd with the triple doubles had the Big O in him as well. The man had such an influence on the game that he could never be overrated.

[Manute for Ever!]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.

This ^^^^. And I hate when people say his stats aren't impressve when "adjusted for pace". He played when he ****ing played and he was great.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This ^^^^. And I hate when people say his stats aren't impressve when "adjusted for pace". He played when he ****ing played and he was great.

The problem is that some people act like him averaging a triple double then is like averaging one in today's game with the slower pace and it's not. I'm not saying the competition was weaker then either, just that his stats have to be put in perspective considering the pace. Of course it's very impressive because nobody else did it, even back then. I'm not putting down past players, I respect Russell, Wilt, West and Oscar as all time greats. But in reality Oscar is a player with not much playoff success as the leader of his own team and great stats. Kobe's all time ranking was lower when he had only won 3 as the second option, so why shoudn't Oscar's be? Especially considering prime Kareem was about as dominant as prime Shaq.

[Showtime]

The problem is that some people act like him averaging a triple double then is like averaging one in today's game with the slower pace and it's not.

And there are several probelms with THAT logic:

1. The game always changes, so this modern day era isn't the MEASURING STICK for all of basketball. Therefore, what Oscar may or may not do in the modern era is not only conjecture, but IRRELEVANT.

2. If one wants to engage in irrelevant conjecture, then take into account everything. Assists are handed out more willingly. Frontlines are weak, so a guard can rebound well, and Robertson was a great rebounder even when playing with one of the best rebounders of that time in Jerry Lucas. Floors are spread more, and the 3 point shot helps open up the halfcourt, and more and more guys spot up for shots. That means that Oscar could have more targets, more assists, and more rebounds from that. Oh, and let's not forget the defensive rules for perimeter players, so a guy with his skills and build could certainly score. So everything considered, there's no reason why he couldn't do it. Directly trying to convert his production then to production now just by adjusting pace totally ignores the vast differences in the climate of the game and the way it's played, so it's all baseless in evaluating him. He did what he did, and nobody has done that since him.


I'm not saying the competition was weaker then either, just that his stats have to be put in perspective considering the pace.

And there's more context to his stats than just pace. You can't just directly try to convert his stats on pace, because there's more differences in the eras than just pace. See above.


Of course it's very impressive because nobody else did it, even back then. I'm not putting down past players, I respect Russell, Wilt, West and Oscar as all time greats. But in reality Oscar is a player with not much playoff success as the leader of his own team and great stats. Kobe's all time ranking was lower when he had only won 3 as the second option, so why shoudn't Oscar's be? Especially considering prime Kareem was about as dominant as prime Shaq.
There's more to team success than the individual. The Lakers success and the Royals success (or lack thereof) shouldn't be the determining factor on which individual was better. Robertson was in a tough situation with the Royals, and on the downside of his career, he still helped the Bucks reach two finals and win a championship. Once he retired, the team started to fall apart and KAJ wanted out.

[meh]

It's kind of weird how the people supporting Big O in the top 10 are saying how he's doing something "no one else" has done. WTF!? How does that even make sense? Since when is the game about filling the stat sheet and not about helping your team to win?

To me, Oscar is kind of similar to Kevin Garnett. Excellent player, great ability, great numbers, and quite frankly, NOT legendary status. You can say that he's played on bad teams... but then what about everyone else? If the criteria for judging best all-time players does not use winning, then what separates the likes of Micheal Jordan vs. the likes of Karl Malone?

Filling up the stat sheets does not a "all time top 10 player" make.

[chitownsfinest]

Someone answer this question for me:
If Oscar averaging a triple double was sooo easy due to the pace, why wasn't anyone else doing it in his era? C'mon, obviously with pace the someone other the Oscar would have no problem. Also, I love how people use hypotheticals like the saying of Lebron averaging a triple double if playing in that era, but wouldn't Lebron and other superstars from today not have the same access to the high level workout tools in that era either?

[Roundball_Rock]

To me, Oscar is kind of similar to Kevin Garnett. Excellent player, great ability, great numbers, and quite frankly, NOT legendary status. You can say that he's played on bad teams... but then what about everyone else? If the criteria for judging best all-time players does not use winning, then what separates the likes of Micheal Jordan vs. the likes of Karl Malone?

Filling up the stat sheets does not a "all time top 10 player" make.

Great points. If we go solely by individual accomplishments then Karl Malone>Duncan and Malone is also better than Hakeem. The reason Malone never makes the top 10 and these two due is they have rings and he doesn't. Why does Oscar get a pass? It is not that he was not winning rings. We understand that he faced the 60's Celtics machine. It is that he could not even win more than 50+ games more than once. His teams were not even competitive...

[D-Rose]

Jason Kidd had 19/9/6 and 17/11/7 in this day and age...wonder if he'd do it back then.

[chitownsfinest]

Jason Kidd had 19/9/6 and 17/11/7 in this day and age...wonder if he'd do it back then.
Which brings me to point that Kidd would also not have access to same the same fitness/workout facilities back then either.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jason Kidd had 19/9/6 and 17/11/7 in this day and age...wonder if he'd do it back then.

Probably. Lebron definitely would.

[QUOTE]Okay, so you

[ShaqAttack3234]

And there are several probelms with THAT logic:

1. The game always changes, so this modern day era isn't the MEASURING STICK for all of basketball. Therefore, what Oscar may or may not do in the modern era is not only conjecture, but IRRELEVANT.

2. If one wants to engage in irrelevant conjecture, then take into account everything. Assists are handed out more willingly. Frontlines are weak, so a guard can rebound well, and Robertson was a great rebounder even when playing with one of the best rebounders of that time in Jerry Lucas. Floors are spread more, and the 3 point shot helps open up the halfcourt, and more and more guys spot up for shots. That means that Oscar could have more targets, more assists, and more rebounds from that. Oh, and let's not forget the defensive rules for perimeter players, so a guy with his skills and build could certainly score. So everything considered, there's no reason why he couldn't do it. Directly trying to convert his production then to production now just by adjusting pace totally ignores the vast differences in the climate of the game and the way it's played, so it's all baseless in evaluating him. He did what he did, and nobody has done that since him.

Of course nothing could tell us accurately what he'd average in today's NBA, but I did adjust the assists using an assist/Field Goal ratio because I knew that you couldn't get an assist if you passed to a player, they dribbled and then took a shot.

To me, I look at Oscar as probably the best playmaker of his era(he led the NBA in assists 7 times), one of the best scorers(led the NBA in scoring) and a great rebounder for a guard.

The fact that he averaged a triple double is meaningless to me when comparing him to current players, but leading the league in assists 7 times and scoring isn't. Because that's a good measure of what he did against his era compared to what players have done in more recent years because an assist title is an assist title any year, same as scoring title.

I just feel that when people bring up his triple double average against more recent players it's unfair. To prove Robertson's statistical greatness vs players today they should look no further than his assists titles and scoring title.


There's more to team success than the individual. The Lakers success and the Royals success (or lack thereof) shouldn't be the determining factor on which individual was better. Robertson was in a tough situation with the Royals, and on the downside of his career, he still helped the Bucks reach two finals and win a championship. Once he retired, the team started to fall apart and KAJ wanted out.

That's true, and nobody is denying that he's a great player, one of the best ever. But if you look at the top 10 all time, almost every single player in the discussion had both individual success and team success as the best player on their team.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I've often thought about this and a lot of you guys have a good point. To me Oscar isn't in the top 10. Definitely top 20-30 though. Can't argue with what he did on the basketball court. The man was amazing. Being the only player in NBA history to average a triple double for an entire year is an awesome accomplishment no matter what. I just can't rank him in the top 10 overall. My list looks like this:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Larry Bird
4) Magic Johnson
5) Bill Russell
6) Wilt Chamberlain
7) Hakeem Olajuwon
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Tim Duncan
10) Jerry West

[RoseCity07]

He averaged a triple double in a league that had less teams than today. The league has been deluded today by adding more teams. Back then you really were playing against the best of the best every night.

You didn't go from playing against Kobe to playing against Rashad Mccants. It would be more like playing against a great player every night.

[momo]

Silly thread.

First off and most importantly, some people thinking O is top 10 and others thinking he is 11 or lower does not = overrated OR underrated. The league is old enough and has so many great players that the top 10 is massively subjective. Realistically, without some pre arranged standards you can make a case for way too many players.

Mikan in. Dr. J in. West in or out. McHale in. Moses in or out. Kobe in or out. And so on.

Secondly, Anyone in Big O's era gets short shrift the same way anyone in MJ's does. He was in an era with a supremely dominant dynasty. He may have only won one ring, but look at the teams he had, the teams he played against and the MONSTER of a team it took for him to win it all. That bucks squad was SICK... and they only got one. KAJ was not the only other person on that team ya know. And remember, pre Jordan, this was many peoples GOAT pick.


Honestly, I think many people who say "this guy should not be top 10" have another borderline guy and probably equal guy they think should be in his place. And that is the agenda they start with. But realistically, probably 15-20 people have too good a case to make the list, and after the immortal 5 or 6 guys everyone else is borderline.

I also think big O is handicapped by just not being all that likable.

[CroqueMort]

Very good point from RoseCity07, too many teams in the NBA !

I am not going to talk about the Big O because well, I'm sure like the majority of this board I am way too young to talk about his game. The two or three NBA greatest on NBA TV that I have seen are not enough to talk about a player.

On the other all the old guy that I know and who are still involved in Basketball always mention the Big O as maybe the greatest that they have ever seen, so Imma go with them.


P.S: Internet dude in 2030 " Jordan was overrated he played in a weak era, and I'm not even going to talk about Bird and Magic who were slow ".

DAMN !!! Show some RESPECT !!!

[Meticode]

some of you people are FCUKING idiots. seriously.
"he didn't win championships"...gimme a break!
who DID win championships in the 60s besides the Celtics? It was a freakin' monopoly.

I suppose Karl Malone and John Stockton were marginal, too? Barkley?

Big O was one of the greatest ever. Period.
You youngsters can debate to your hearts content...but he was an absolute beast.

I agree. Averaging a triple double for a season is freakin' amazing. And winning a championship in the Celtics area is also amazing.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's true, and nobody is denying that he's a great player, one of the best ever. But if you look at the top 10 all time, almost every single player in the discussion had both individual success and team success as the best player on their team.

This. :applause:

A lot of people are correctly pointing out the Celtic's dominance of that era but the bigger knock on Oscar is that his teams were not even contenders until he paired with Kareem. We demand winning from every other top 10 player, why is Oscar given a special exemption? What makes Duncan>K. Malone on everyone's all-time lists? Malone was a better player.

Let's look at ISH's top 10 and how many championships they won.

1. Michael Jordan 6
2. Wilt Chamberlain 2
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson 5
5. Larry Bird 3
6. Bill Russell 11
7. Shaquille O'Neal 4
8. Oscar Robertson 1
9. Hakeem Olajuwon 2
10. Tim Duncan 4

As pointed out earlier, Oscar would fare even worse if you looked at the W-L records of these player's teams.


That bucks squad was SICK... and they only got one. KAJ was not the only other person on that team ya know.

The Bucks were an expansion team which won a mere 27 games in 1969. Kareem showed up in 1970 and he improved these scrubs to 56 wins and the conference finals. The 1971 team was basically the same as the 1970 team, except for the addition of Robertson. The team did improve to 66 wins and to champions that season. How much of this was due to Robertson? Kareem improved from 29 ppg to 32 ppg (1st in the league), 14.5 rpg to 16 rpg, and from 52% shooting to 58%. His PER rose from 22.5 to 29.0 (1st in the NBA). Given this, much of the improvement over 1970 has to be credited to Kareem.

Is there any other top 20 player whose teams had a worse W-L record than Oscar? Yes, Oscar did not play on great teams before going to the Bucks. However, great players usually make teams good. Look at what Kareem did with a bunch of expansion team scrubs.

[BingBongBrother]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOBkjAb1k4g&feature=related
how is this guy good?
any players in the nba would destroy him.
Wow the competition used to suck really bad. Nothing should count until the 80s. Erase Wilt and Big O from any talk.

How many titles did Wilt win with his monster numbers?

[AirJordan&Magic]

ISH have some of the biggest idiots and hypocrites. Seriously, Oscar Robertson is one of the greatest to ever play, no question about it. The numbers he put up in his career were ridiculous. But how he makes top 10 over players that had much more success than him is beyond me.
Take Kobe for instance. All of these morons loved to critisize him for winning three championships as the 2nd option and not winning when Shaq was gone. Also these haters love to point out Kobe missing the playoffs the year after Shaq left. Now Kobe has his well deserved 4th ring and the haters have ran out of excuses.
Which brings me back to Oscar Robertson. Now you idiots had loved to diss Kobe for these reasons right? Well how do you explain not leading your team (Cincinatti Royals) to a 50+ season record, missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and 5 overall, and getting eliminated from the 1st round when you did make it?
I'm sorry and no disrespect to the Big O, but when you look at the legitimate top 10 players such as Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson, etc....none of them had such a pathetic team career like Oscar Robertson did. And that is why I even bring Kobe up. Kobe himself has had way more success from a team standpoint than Oscar ever did. Sports is all about winning and accept it or not, Oscar Robertson didn't describe being a winner.

Individually from a statistical standpoint, he is top 5. But when you combine talents, accomplishments, stats, and most importantly Team Successand Winning Championships, he is not a top ten player.

The top 10 greatest players of all time (talent, accomplishments, stats, and success)
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Bill Russell
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Shaquille O'neal
8. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan
10. Kobe Bryant

[bruceblitz]

You need to stop snorting,drinking,smoking,injecting what ever you are on. Rehab should be number one on your top ten list. Come on, Oscar is one of, if not the greatest all around players to ever play. First NBA player to use the fadeaway and head fake. His impact on the game is tremendous, on and off the court.
:oldlol: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :oldlol:

[Niquesports]

I've often thought about this and a lot of you guys have a good point. To me Oscar isn't in the top 10. Definitely top 20-30 though. Can't argue with what he did on the basketball court. The man was amazing. Being the only player in NBA history to average a triple double for an entire year is an awesome accomplishment no matter what. I just can't rank him in the top 10 overall. My list looks like this:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Larry Bird
4) Magic Johnson
5) Bill Russell
6) Wilt Chamberlain
7) Hakeem Olajuwon
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Tim Duncan
10) Jerry West

Im a very big basketball fan and get a joy talking basketball with peopple all day.
But it kills me when 20something aged guys get on here and act like authorities on basketball and give no respect to players of yesterday. If I was to say George Milkin was a top 5 Center ever poster on ISH under 25 would call me a fool name players like Yoa, is much better. These kids get on here and say Oscar couldnt lead his team to a 50 win season ?? WIth no idea of the make up of the schedule back in the 60's or how terrible the Cinn. organization was . This goes for TIny also. These young kids have no understanding that the Cinn team was just as bad or worst ran the todays Cliipers and had been years after Oscar up until the 2 Bros. brought the team and brought in Webber. Just get out of looking at the stats and look at how bad the team was up until them they were the Cliipers of the 60's and 70's. Is there any one on this board that really thnks that MJ,Lebron,Kobe could lead the Cliipers to mulitple 50 game seasons ? The franchise has never been built to win. Now we get back to he only won a championship riding Kareems coatail. How many rings does Shaq have without a big time Guard just as many as Kareem none. Lastly as I begin to look for a board with people with more knowledge on the NBA and not just the NBA in the last 20 years these kids fail to realize that like WIlt and Russ, Bird and Magic Oscar and West by most that remember them were just a close rivals with many saying West had the better team and Oscar the better player. Its a joke to think that any player in the 60's could lead to an elite level.

[Da_Realist]

Im a very big basketball fan and get a joy talking basketball with peopple all day.
But it kills me when 20something aged guys get on here and act like authorities on basketball and give no respect to players of yesterday. If I was to say George Milkin was a top 5 Center ever poster on ISH under 25 would call me a fool name players like Yoa, is much better. These kids get on here and say Oscar couldnt lead his team to a 50 win season ?? WIth no idea of the make up of the schedule back in the 60's or how terrible the Cinn. organization was . This goes for TIny also. These young kids have no understanding that the Cinn team was just as bad or worst ran the todays Cliipers and had been years after Oscar up until the 2 Bros. brought the team and brought in Webber. Just get out of looking at the stats and look at how bad the team was up until them they were the Cliipers of the 60's and 70's. Is there any one on this board that really thnks that MJ,Lebron,Kobe could lead the Cliipers to mulitple 50 game seasons ? The franchise has never been built to win. Now we get back to he only won a championship riding Kareems coatail. How many rings does Shaq have without a big time Guard just as many as Kareem none. Lastly as I begin to look for a board with people with more knowledge on the NBA and not just the NBA in the last 20 years these kids fail to realize that like WIlt and Russ, Bird and Magic Oscar and West by most that remember them were just a close rivals with many saying West had the better team and Oscar the better player. Its a joke to think that any player in the 60's could lead to an elite level.

Well said, Nique. That's why I stay out of conversations about guys I never saw play. It's fun to debate but you have to understand the game is so much more than numbers. All these numbers and and calculations adjusted for pace, weather conditions and the alignment of the stars relative to the planet Jupiter can be arranged to support any theory. Numbers are needed because a judgment based solely on memory is faulty but it's worse to judge a player based solely on numbers.

I'll trust a guy that saw the game, the players and the era but don't know the numbers a lot easier than I'll trust a guy only uses numbers to critique.

[Alpha Wolf]

Nope Michael Jordan is!





Jordan= overrated by the media to make $$$$ for corporate america

[Duncan21formvp]

Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Share this year


Gasol had 14.4 and I had 13.1. So why did Kobe finish 2nd in MVP voting when he couldn't even lead his team in win shares?

Kobe gets overrated because he plays for LA, and Laker fans think that they're the center of the universe, and that everything Laker must be better. If Kobe was with Utah he would be no better than Deron Williams. If Deron Williams was with LA he would get compared to Oscar Robertson.

Hell right now Bynum gets compared to Kareem and he hasn't even done ****.


Let's face it, Kobe is great because of the media. The media loves him and his character. Kobe have never separated himself from his peers. Kobe has never led the league in PER or Win Shares. Only thing Kobe has ever done is led in scoring twice, which T-mac has done twice as well and what Iverson has done 4 times. Kobe is a product of the media.

Gasol is the real MVP of the team as he led LA in win shares all year long.


Kobe can never be the greatest as he has already lost to inferior teams in the Pistons and twice in the finals. Lakers were better than Boston last year Kobe just didn't show up.


Kobe is soo overrated that the dude started an allstar game and wasn't even a starter on his team.

[nbastatus]

Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Share this year


Gasol had 14.4 and I had 13.1. So why did Kobe finish 2nd in MVP voting when he couldn't even lead his team in win shares?

Kobe gets overrated because he plays for LA, and Laker fans think that they're the center of the universe, and that everything Laker must be better. If Kobe was with Utah he would be no better than Deron Williams. If Deron Williams was with LA he would get compared to Oscar Robertson.

Hell right now Bynum gets compared to Kareem and he hasn't even done ****.


Let's face it, Kobe is great because of the media. The media loves him and his character. Kobe have never separated himself from his peers. Kobe has never led the league in PER or Win Shares. Only thing Kobe has ever done is led in scoring twice, which T-mac has done twice as well and what Iverson has done 4 times. Kobe is a product of the media.

Gasol is the real MVP of the team as he led LA in win shares all year long.


Kobe can never be the greatest as he has already lost to inferior teams in the Pistons and twice in the finals. Lakers were better than Boston last year Kobe just didn't show up.


Kobe is soo overrated that the dude started an allstar game and wasn't even a starter on his team.
i hope you were kidding.

[AirJordan&Magic]

what are you talking about? It's not about Oscar Robertson being overrated because it will be retarded to call him overrated. The thing people are trying to figure out, including me, is why is he considered a legitimate top 10 player? Face it, if you look at all the players that are considered top 10 players, they all had team success as well as individual success and Oscar doesn't fit that criteria. And the argument about the Cincinatti Royals being the "Clippers of the 60s" is ridiculous. Oscar Robertson is not the only player that had to struggle with a weak supporting cast, even though his supporting cast was not even as weak as you claim.
Now to say Oscar Robertson is overrated by using the excuse "He only averaged those numbers because of the pace of 60s basketball" is retarded. Just because a player is ahead of their time doen't mean their overrated. But when you look at the fact that he did not have much team success, it's hard to rank him top 10.

[KOBERAMBIS]

Pau Gasol led the Lakers in Win Share this year


Gasol had 14.4 and I had 13.1. So why did Kobe finish 2nd in MVP voting when he couldn't even lead his team in win shares?

Kobe gets overrated because he plays for LA, and Laker fans think that they're the center of the universe, and that everything Laker must be better. If Kobe was with Utah he would be no better than Deron Williams. If Deron Williams was with LA he would get compared to Oscar Robertson.

Hell right now Bynum gets compared to Kareem and he hasn't even done ****.


Let's face it, Kobe is great because of the media. The media loves him and his character. Kobe have never separated himself from his peers. Kobe has never led the league in PER or Win Shares. Only thing Kobe has ever done is led in scoring twice, which T-mac has done twice as well and what Iverson has done 4 times. Kobe is a product of the media.

Gasol is the real MVP of the team as he led LA in win shares all year long.


Kobe can never be the greatest as he has already lost to inferior teams in the Pistons and twice in the finals. Lakers were better than Boston last year Kobe just didn't show up.


Kobe is soo overrated that the dude started an allstar game and wasn't even a starter on his team.


TIM DUNCAN IS OBVIOUSLY THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE!!!

TALK ABOUT MEDIA MADE...GEEZ... GUY WHINES ON EVERY FOUL AND HAS SCORING NUMBERS LIKE DETLEF SHREMPF... HIS DEFENSE IS MORE OVERRATED THAN LEBRON JAMES' DEFENSE...NO I TAKE THAT BACK THAT FOOL LEBRON COULDN'T GUARD ME ONE ON ONE!!!!

[Niquesports]

what are you talking about? It's not about Oscar Robertson being overrated because it will be retarded to call him overrated. The thing people are trying to figure out, including me, is why is he considered a legitimate top 10 player? Face it, if you look at all the players that are considered top 10 players, they all had team success as well as individual success and Oscar doesn't fit that criteria. And the argument about the Cincinatti Royals being the "Clippers of the 60s" is ridiculous. Oscar Robertson is not the only player that had to struggle with a weak supporting cast, even though his supporting cast was not even as weak as you claim.
Now to say Oscar Robertson is overrated by using the excuse "He only averaged those numbers because of the pace of 60s basketball" is retarded. Just because a player is ahead of their time doen't mean their overrated. But when you look at the fact that he did not have much team success, it's hard to rank him top 10.


Id like to see you show me how the Royals wernet as weak as I have stated. Compare them to the Celtics,76ers ,Warriors of the 60's for that matter even the Hawks. It was not only that the team was weak but the franchisae was terrible. Cousy was a horrible coach never had a winning record didnt get along with Oscar even signed his self up as player coach which didnt work just got Otrade where he went on and did have team success. If Magic and Bird are 2A and 2B then Oscar and West are at least at least a top 10 A and 10B

[Fatal9]

No one is questioning Oscar's game...

He is overrated because there is no reason for him to be on the conventional top 10 list (which factors in peak play, stats, rings, winning etc etc). He's a top 20 player and like I said in OP, in the same league as Barkley and Robinson.

[Toizumi]

no

[Niquesports]

No one is questioning Oscar's game...

He is overrated because there is no reason for him to be on the conventional top 10 list (which factors in peak play, stats, rings, winning etc etc). He's a top 20 player and like I said in OP, in the same league as Barkley and Robinson.


IF you know anything about basketball NBA basketball and its history if your putting Oscar in the same league as Robinson then you are overrating Robinson and underrating Oscar. Robinson was a very good C while Oscar was a great PG/SG

[AirJordan&Magic]

First off, my point has nothing to do with what you are talking about. I could care less about who was better between Jerry West and Oscar Robertson. And the Royals was a weak team, yes. But not talentwise. Dont make it seem as if Oscar Robertson had noone on that team because you will be completely fooling yourself.
Jerry Lucas was one of the greatest power forwards and one of the most dominant rebounders in Nba History. He also played with other great players like Jack Twyman, Wayne Embry, Adrian Smith and Tom Van Arsdale. Anyway my point is, if you look at the legitimate top ten players like Mj, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Bird, Hakeem, etc.....neither of these players had as many failures from a team aspect as Oscar did.
There is no question Oscar Robertson is one of the greatest players to ever play. He is the best all around player in Nba History after Magic Johnson in my opinion. He is not overrated.
But I just cannot see how he is ranked top 10 over certain players that deserve it more.

[nbastatus]

TIM DUNCAN IS OBVIOUSLY THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE!!!

TALK ABOUT MEDIA MADE...GEEZ... GUY WHINES ON EVERY FOUL AND HAS SCORING NUMBERS LIKE DETLEF SHREMPF... HIS DEFENSE IS MORE OVERRATED THAN LEBRON JAMES' DEFENSE...NO I TAKE THAT BACK THAT FOOL LEBRON COULDN'T GUARD ME ONE ON ONE!!!!
are you the real kobe bryant?

[IInvented]

LeBrick James is...

[Roundball_Rock]

Why is Oscar the only "great" player given a pass for being a perennial loser? People were all over Kobe after he had 3 rings because he did not have one without Shaq, Malone is barred from the top 10 all-time because he never won a ring (he did make it to the finals 3x and the conference finals 6x), and so on yet Oscar--with probably the worst W-L record of any top 20 player, gets a free pass for not even being able to win 50 games.

[Fatal9]

From the game footage I've seen of Oscar in big games (with the Bucks), he seemed almost to be a bit of a choker. He made several mental errors every time he was pressed near the end of games and in fact made several crucial turnovers (or passes that led to turnovers by putting teammates in bad situations). None better example than game 6 in '74 which should have never went to 2OTs if he had some poise. Those weren't his glory days but certainly didn't look like a 30+ year old Vet.

[gts]

Why is Oscar the only "great" player given a pass for being a perennial loser? People were all over Kobe after he had 3 rings because he did not have one without Shaq, Malone is barred from the top 10 all-time because he never won a ring (he did make it to the finals 3x and the conference finals 6x), and so on yet Oscar--with probably the worst W-L record of any top 20 player, gets a free pass for not even being able to win 50 games.

different eras for one thing...
Robinson played like a point gaurd and he led the league in assists 6 or 7 times and was 2nd or 3rd 4 other times, yet even though he dished the ball alot he was still a top scorer in the league throughout his career, finishing in the top 2 or 3 several seasons so he was doing his part.
secondly back then players were pretty much stuck on the team they played for, they were property and if a player was stuck on a lousy team there really was very little a player could do.

lastly and most importantly he played in a conference dominated by the 76ers and celtics, season after season the celtics won the title just about every dam year so it wasn't just oscar being a "perennial loser" it was the whole league! wilt, west lots of players had great careers in that time span and could be tagged with the "perennial loser" tag because of the celtics alone. then when oscar did get out of cincy and the eastern conference he has to play the lakers, the other team that was in the finals alot and dominated the west all those years.
the guy was knocked out of the playoffs every year by the celtics and twice by the 76ers, then he wins a ring with the bucks and a couple years later loses the finals to the celtics! lol the man must hate green more than anyone.

that's the simple version, but the fact is he was an incredible talent and worthy of being considered a top 10 talent

[cotdt]

From the footage I've seen of Oscar, he doesn't seem to be that good by modern superstar standards (Kobe/Lebron/Wade). A good midrange shooter but pretty slow. He reminds me of Big Baby Davis in a way, and physical training would have helped him. He seems a pretty average playmaker and passer despite his huge assist numbers.

Meh, I think his triple double average comes from the fast pace of the game. Adjusted to today's pacing, he'd have around 20/7/7 which is still impressive, but the era was weaker. Adjusted to today's era, who knows, but the numbers would not look as impressive, that's for sure.

Lebron James seems to hold Oscar in high regard though, no surprise given his obsession with big $tats.

[ShaqAttack3234]

IF you know anything about basketball NBA basketball and its history if your putting Oscar in the same league as Robinson then you are overrating Robinson and underrating Oscar. Robinson was a very good C while Oscar was a great PG/SG

You are underrating Robinson. In his rookie season he improved the Spurs from 21 wins the previous season to 56 wins and he made it to the second round of the playoffs! He averaged 24, 12 and 4 with 1.7 steals per game on 53% shooting. That's as good as just about anyone's rookie season.

The following season he kept the Spurs at 55 wins despite second option Terry Cumming's scoring average dropping 5 ppg. He accomplished this by averaging 25.6 ppg, 13 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.5 spg and once again 3.9 bpg on 55.2% shooting. The following season the Spurs record dropped to 47-35, but Robinson still averaged 23 and 12 on 55% shooting with an astonishing 4.5 blocks per game and 2.3 steals per game! :wtf: Not surprisingly he won the defensive player of the year award.

In 1994 he led a team with a second leading scorer at 15 ppg and just 3 other double digit scorers to 55 wins. He accomplished this by leading the league in scoring and averaging 29, 11, 5, 2 and 3. :eek: In 1995 he led a team consisting of Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson and Dennis Rodman to 62 wins and the Western Conference finals. Rodman missed 33 games too. This earned Robinson the MVP award. The following season the Spurs still won 59 games despite trading Rodman for Will Perdue.

He missed most of the 1996-1997 season with an injury, but impressively at age 32 he came back, mixed with fellow center Tim Duncan and won 56 games while averaging 22, 11, 3 and 3. The following season they'd perfect this twin towers attack by winning a championship with Robinson still playing at an all-star level. In fact Robinson was arguably more important to the 1999 Spurs than Robertson was to the 1971 Bucks because the Spurs only had one additional 10 ppg scorer outside of the twin towers and he(Sean Elliott) averaged just 11.2 ppg. Even at 34 years old in 2000 Robinson was still an 18/10/2/2 player and an elite defender. At 37, in his final season Robinson would win his second championship as a valuable role player who played defense and rebounded.

David was consistently among the leaders in blocks, rebounding, steals, FG% and scoring in his prime too.

I'd rank Robinson ahead of Robertson. David was a much more dominant defender, had a comparable impact offensively, won a championship with a role atleast as big as Robertson's and an additional one as a role player), had comparable success as the leader of his team with less help(Robinson never had a player as good as Jerry Lucas in his prime) and David's stats are more impressive to me. What David did is really underappreciated, specifically his first 3 seasons.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Well said. I never ever once said Oscar Robertson was overrated because he is not. But as you said, he is the only all tme great that gets a free pass to the top 10 while being a "perenniel loser." I never understand how this guy is so "unquestionably" considered top 10 without really proving he is. Basketball is a team sport that is based on winning, and he barely was a winner.When it comes to the Oscar Robertson is top 10 debate, the players I love bringing up is Kobe Bryant, Hakeem Olajuwon, and even Moses Malone. Why???
Let's take Kobe for instance and then Hakeem.
If you look at what Kobe has done in his career as of now at only age 30 and compare it to what Oscar Robertson has done in his entire career, Kobe definitely has the edge over the Big O. And I am aware of Oscar's stats, so I don't need any idiot trying to post any of it saying Bs like "Oscar's stats are betters than Kobe's" because I guarantee I will make them look foolish.
Hakeem Olajuwon is another perfect example. My point is, Oscar Roberston is more of a top 10-15 player than a top 10-5 like alot of these b-ball fans put him as. He has no place being ranked higher than 10 in my opinion.

[AirJordan&Magic]

And if the Kobe Bryant or Hakeem Olajuwon haters try to act like it's not close........

Kobe Bryant is a 4 time Nba champion to Oscar's 1....1 time Nba finals Mvp whereas Oscar has none....just as many regular season Mvps (1) and All star Game Mvps (3) as Oscar Robertson...11 time Nba all star to Oscar Robertson's 12 appearances...11 all-Nba team selections (7 first team, 2 second team, and 2 third team) to Oscar's 11 All-Nba team selections(9 first, 2 second team)......Also Kobe has achieved 2 scoring titles and 9 all defensive team selections, two accomplishments Oscar never recieved.

And Hakeem Olajuwon gets the edge as well. 2 time Nba Champion, 2 time Nba finals Mvp, 1 time Nba Mvp, 2 time dpoy, 12 time all star, 12 all-nba team selections, 9 all-defensive team selections, Nba all time leader in blocks. Also top ten in points, blocks, steals, and rebounds.

[1987_Lakers]

Why is Oscar the only "great" player given a pass for being a perennial loser? People were all over Kobe after he had 3 rings because he did not have one without Shaq, Malone is barred from the top 10 all-time because he never won a ring (he did make it to the finals 3x and the conference finals 6x), and so on yet Oscar--with probably the worst W-L record of any top 20 player, gets a free pass for not even being able to win 50 games.

Well said. Oscar is somewhat overrated because many people think he is a top 10 player of all time when he's not. It's not his inflated stats that bother me the most, but his W-L record. He only led his team to one 50 win game season. He shouldn't be considered top 10, more like top 15.

[indiefan23]

Why is he ranked over Moses, Kobe, Dr. J, West or even players like Barkley and Robinson who had more statistically impressive seasons (which I am assuming is the only reason he is even in the top 10)?

Pace adjusted his stats are NOT better than almost all of these players.

He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career.

Won only one championship as arguably the third fiddle on a team led by Kareem.

Can we stop including him in any top 10 lists? Top 20 is more appropriate. He is in the same class as Barkley, Malone, Robinson and probably at the lower end of it too.

Not really, NBA history is just really over rated. :)

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2009/05/nba-fan-evolution-part-1-fan-eras.html

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2009/05/nba-fan-evolution-part-2-fan-evolves.html

[BallersTalk]

Kobe's the most overrated.

[Jasper]

I first opened the thread to see what year this was created ... then I realized : Yep after 25 + years people will forget or just tarnish a player.
Then again the majority of the posters weren't even born , when I was sitting in the stands and watching the Big O.

[ZaaaaaH]

Above Top 10 = Overrated

Under Top 20 = Underrated

Oscar Robertson AKA Mr.TippleDouble

[Big#50]

You are underrating Robinson. In his rookie season he improved the Spurs from 21 wins the previous season to 56 wins and he made it to the second round of the playoffs! He averaged 24, 12 and 4 with 1.7 steals per game on 53% shooting. That's as good as just about anyone's rookie season.

The following season he kept the Spurs at 55 wins despite second option Terry Cumming's scoring average dropping 5 ppg. He accomplished this by averaging 25.6 ppg, 13 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.5 spg and once again 3.9 bpg on 55.2% shooting. The following season the Spurs record dropped to 47-35, but Robinson still averaged 23 and 12 on 55% shooting with an astonishing 4.5 blocks per game and 2.3 steals per game! :wtf: Not surprisingly he won the defensive player of the year award.

In 1994 he led a team with a second leading scorer at 15 ppg and just 3 other double digit scorers to 55 wins. He accomplished this by leading the league in scoring and averaging 29, 11, 5, 2 and 3. :eek: In 1995 he led a team consisting of Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson and Dennis Rodman to 62 wins and the Western Conference finals. Rodman missed 33 games too. This earned Robinson the MVP award. The following season the Spurs still won 59 games despite trading Rodman for Will Perdue.

He missed most of the 1996-1997 season with an injury, but impressively at age 32 he came back, mixed with fellow center Tim Duncan and won 56 games while averaging 22, 11, 3 and 3. The following season they'd perfect this twin towers attack by winning a championship with Robinson still playing at an all-star level. In fact Robinson was arguably more important to the 1999 Spurs than Robertson was to the 1971 Bucks because the Spurs only had one additional 10 ppg scorer outside of the twin towers and he(Sean Elliott) averaged just 11.2 ppg. Even at 34 years old in 2000 Robinson was still an 18/10/2/2 player and an elite defender. At 37, in his final season Robinson would win his second championship as a valuable role player who played defense and rebounded.

David was consistently among the leaders in blocks, rebounding, steals, FG% and scoring in his prime too.

I'd rank Robinson ahead of Robertson. David was a much more dominant defender, had a comparable impact offensively, won a championship with a role atleast as big as Robertson's and an additional one as a role player), had comparable success as the leader of his team with less help(Robinson never had a player as good as Jerry Lucas in his prime) and David's stats are more impressive to me. What David did is really underappreciated, specifically his first 3 seasons.
Great post! David was a freak his first 6 seasons.

[Jasper]

Above Top 10 = Overrated

Under Top 20 = Underrated

Oscar Robertson AKA Mr.TippleDouble

25 years old , never saw Big O , but saw some of the archive footage ?

Yea - you bet-ch !!

[phoenix18]

Top ten player of all time. Stop with this he isnt top ten crap.

[Yung D-Will]

As long as people have Oscar under Isiah I don't really care

[L.Kizzle]

silly thread.

[Dasher]

As long as people have Oscar under Isiah I don't really careI'm one of Zeke's biggest fans, but he was not as good as Oscar. If Oscar's stats and the stats of Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain were so easy to come by, why were they not duplicated by other players? Oscar was essentially the 80s Michael Jordan of his time.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

http://upperdeckblogs.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/on-court-kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-1.jpg

[L.Kizzle]

I'm one of Zeke's biggest fans, but he was not as good as Oscar. If Oscar's stats and the stats of Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain were so easy to come by, why were they not duplicated by other players? Oscar was essentially the 80s Michael Jordan of his time.
That's what I always say.

No body else was getting 32/12/11

No one else was dropping 50/27

No one else was getting 38/20/5

No one else was winning 11 titles in 13 years.

No one else was playing with a cast on their hand for half the seasons (Schayes and Pettit)

[ronnymac]

Averaging a triple double a WHOLE SEASON MAKES YOU OVERRATED.:rolleyes:

[RedZiggyZag]

Putting him in the Top 10 or higher would make him overrated, placing him below or lower Top 20 would make him underrated. Anything in between 10-20 that makes him perfectly fine. He's not overrated at all, only by kids that look at stats and make a judgement immediately just because they were eye popping. Most people know that Oscar was not a dominant winner, but it's kind of hard to dominate with Wilt and Russell in the way.

[L.Kizzle]

Putting him in the Top 10 or higher would make him overrated, placing him below or lower Top 20 would make him underrated. Anything in between 10-20 that makes him perfectly fine. He's not overrated at all, only by kids that look at stats and make a judgement immediately just because they were eye popping. Most people know that Oscar was not a dominant winner, but it's kind of hard to dominate with Wilt and Russell in the way.
He played in the east with better teams than those Royals like the Celtics (who), Warriors/Sixers, and later the Knicks

[Gifted Mind]

Bill Russell once called him the GOAT. Here we have the greatest winner of all-time calling Oscar the best ever, and on the other side we have people chastising Oscar for not having won enough. Just saying, that is kind of ironic.

[1987_Lakers]

Bill Russell once called him the GOAT. Here we have the greatest winner of all-time calling Oscar the best ever, and on the other side we have people chastising Oscar for not having won enough. Just saying, that is kind of ironic.



He was the most overrated. But if you guys keep this up, he'll be one of the most underrated.


Bill Russell called Oscar Robertson the "GOAT".

So do you agree that Oscar Robertson is overrated?:confusedshrug:

[ZaaaaaH]

Bill Russell once called him the GOAT. Here we have the greatest winner of all-time calling Oscar the best ever, and on the other side we have people chastising Oscar for not having won enough. Just saying, that is kind of ironic.


He called him GOAT during the 70's now this is the 2k era. After 70's there is 10 players that dominated the court better then the Big O. Oscar put up big stats because he handle the ball at all times. Most of the plays went around him 80%+ of the time.

[CB4GOATPF]

[B] TOP 14 G.O.A.T

Player Efficiency Rating

1960-61 NBA 25.9 (3)
1961-62 NBA 26.0 (4)
1962-63 NBA 24.6 (5)
1963-64 NBA 27.6 (2)
1964-65 NBA 26.7 (2)
1965-66 NBA 25.2 (2)
1966-67 NBA 25.5 (2)
1967-68 NBA 24.6 (2)
1968-69 NBA 21.8 (3)
1969-70 NBA 21.5 (3)
Career NBA 23.2 (18)
Career 23.2 (19)

In the Early-Mid and Late 60s He Was Probably a Top 2-3 Player in the Game During The Season

That is right up there with Wilt (The Best of the 60s) and Jerry West ....fighting close by

His Teams Werent

[CB4GOATPF]

EFF, PER and Statsticl +/- = REAL IMPACT

Not Popularity Contests
Not Bull MVP/All NBA Team Poularity Opinion Crap
Not Off the Court Activities Role Model Opinion or Like That Personality Better Crap
Not Championships, Championships = Teams :hammerhead: etc Crap!

Indicate the Following:

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16

11 Jerry Lucas 28.13 11
12 LeBron James 27.20 6
13 Hakeem Olajuwon 27.17 18
14 Shaquille O'neal 27.11 17
15 Jerry West 27.10 14
16 David Robinson 26.98 14
17 Karl Malone 26.94 19
18 Kevin Garnett 26.80 14
19 Tim Duncan 26.39 12
20 Walt Bellamy 26.29 14

21 Dave Cowens 26.23 11
22 Maurice Stokes 25.75 3
23 Chris Paul 25.31 4
24 Bob Lanier 25.29 14
25 Bob McAdoo 24.47 14
26 Dirk Nowitzki 24.34 11
27 Dwyane Wade 24.22 6
28 Moses Malone 24.14 19
29 Willis Reed 24.06 10
30 Elvin Hayes 24.04 16

31 Rick Barry 23.98 10
32 Elton Brand 23.96 10
33 Nate Thurmond 23.73 14
34 Chris Webber 23.72 15
35 Wes Unseld 23.70 13
36 Billy Cunningham 23.51 9
37 Patrick Ewing 23.41 17
38 Julius Erving 23.35 11
39 Neil Johnston 23.23 8
40 Dwight Howard 23.18 5

41 Brad Daugherty 23.10 8
42 Shawn Marion 22.99 10
43 Artis Gilmore 22.99 12
44 Amare Stoudemire 22.85 7
45 Walt Frazier 22.74 13
46 Gus Johnson 22.63 9
47 Adrian Dantley 22.60 15
48 Kobe Bryant 22.58 13
49 Clyde Drexler 22.42 15
50 Pau Gasol 22.33 8

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Season)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 26.87
3. LeBron James 26.20
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Bob Pettit* 25.37
7. Tim Duncan 25.05
8. Neil Johnston* 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

11. Magic Johnson* 24.11
12. Karl Malone 23.90
13. Dirk Nowitzki 23.84
14. Kevin Garnett 23.81
15. Kobe Bryant 23.63
16. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
17. Julius Erving* 23.57
18. Larry Bird* 23.50
19. Oscar Robertson* 23.17
20. Tracy McGrady 23.07

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

21. Yao Ming 23.03
22. Jerry West* 22.90
23. Elgin Baylor* 22.70
24. Elton Brand 22.38
25. Moses Malone* 22.00
26. Dolph Schayes* 21.93
27. John Stockton* 21.83
28. Pau Gasol 21.77
29. Bob Lanier* 21.69
30. Clyde Lovellette* 21.67

31. Dominique Wilkins* 21.56
32. Adrian Dantley* 21.51
33. Harry Gallatin* 21.44
34. Vince Carter 21.41
35. Artis Gilmore 21.40
36. George Gervin* 21.38
37. Dan Issel* 21.37
38. Alonzo Mourning 21.24
39. Allen Iverson 21.10
40. Clyde Drexler* 21.07

41. Rick Barry* 21.04
42. Patrick Ewing* 21.01
43. Paul Pierce 21.00
44. Chris Webber 20.94
45. John Drew 20.74
46. Gilbert Arenas 20.74
47. Bob McAdoo* 20.73
48. Kevin Johnson 20.70
49. Chris Bosh 20.69
50. George Yardley* 20.52


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Career Playoffs Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating (Play-Offs)

Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
4. LeBron James 26.14
5. Tim Duncan 26.07
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.43
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.55

11. Dolph Schayes* 23.24
12. Kevin Garnett 23.19
13. Jerry West* 23.07
14. David Robinson* 23.03
15. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 23.01
16. Magic Johnson* 22.95
17. Wilt Chamberlain* 22.76
18. Bob Pettit* 22.58
19. Baron Davis 22.19
20. Julius Erving* 22.05

21. Elgin Baylor* 21.88
22. Rick Barry* 21.79
23. Moses Malone* 21.56
24. Kobe Bryant 21.50
25. Larry Bird* 21.40
26. Vince Carter 21.40
27. Allen Iverson 21.23
28. George Gervin* 21.17
29. Karl Malone 21.12
30. Oscar Robertson* 20.98
31. Bob Lanier* 20.81
32. Pau Gasol 20.70
33. George Yardley* 20.69
34. Cliff Hagan* 20.62
35. Shawn Kemp 20.55
36. Gus Williams 20.40
37. Artis Gilmore 20.36
38. Manu Ginobili 20.35
39. Paul Arizin* 20.31
40. Dan Issel* 20.06

41. Alex English* 19.92
42. Walter Davis 19.91
43. John Stockton* 19.84
44. Walt Frazier* 19.84
45. Isiah Thomas* 19.80
46. Anfernee Hardaway 19.76
47. Clyde Lovellette* 19.73
48. George McGinnis 19.73
49. Clyde Drexler* 19.71
50. Chauncey Billups 19.64

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

Statistical +/-

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21
bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30
tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12
kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

boblanier C 959 32103 6.24
kobebryant G 921 33584 6.22
jerrywest G 932 36571 6.17
bobbyjones F 941 25728 6.16
conniehawkins F 616 22232 6.08
dirknowitzki F 812 29663 5.97
neiljohnston C 516 18298 5.94
vincecarter G 752 28333 5.88
billrussell C 963 40726 5.85
larrynance F 920 30697 5.74
dolphschayes F 866 29800 5.65
johnstockton G 1504 47764 5.63
rickbarry F 1020 38153 5.56
waltfrazier G 825 30965 5.45
paulpierce F 788 29570 5.30
artisgilmore C 1329 47150 5.16
docrivers G 864 23567 5.16
alvinrobertson G 779 24669 5.13
d.wilkins F 1074 38113 5.10
billycunningham F 770 26844 5.09
scottiepippen F 1178 41069 4.97
booutlaw F 914 20750 4.91
eltonbrand F 643 24421 4.87
gilbertarenas G 431 16115 4.80
waltbellamy C 1043 38940 4.72
chriswebber F 831 30847 4.71
marquesjohnson F 691 23694 4.65
sidneymoncrief G 767 23150 4.60
rogerbrown F 605 21454 4.57
wesunseld C 984 35832 4.56

Players that Appear in the Top 20 in Every 4 of the Categories (EFF, PER/Season + Play-Offs and Statistical +/-)

*not including players whom are still playing....

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Robinson
Magic
Bob Petit

Players that Appear in the Top 20 in 3 of 4 of the Categories (EFF, PER/Season + Play-Offs and Statistical +/-)

*not including players whom are still playing....

Elgin Baylor
Karl Malone
Larry Bird
Dr J
Big O

[Lebron23]

He's a top 12 player in NBA History. I don't think he's overrated because the Celtics and Lakers during that time were the most stacked team in the 1960's.

Oscar averaged a Triple Double in the Regular Season, and he's the best all around player in NBA History.

[icemanfan]

Well he was defintley the second best player on the '71 bucks, but I get your point. I agree that he's overrated, a great player, but why some rank him top 10 is beyond me.
because the game isn't played on paper. When you tried to justify picking Patrick Chewing over David Robinson you ignored the evidence and called it a good resume but said Ewing was more important to his team than what paper could tell. Oscar was a lot more than the sum of his stats.

[EricForman]

I'm one of Zeke's biggest fans, but he was not as good as Oscar. If Oscar's stats and the stats of Elgin Baylor and Wilt Chamberlain were so easy to come by, why were they not duplicated by other players? Oscar was essentially the 80s Michael Jordan of his time.

but stats back then were so skewed we have to put it in context right? otherwise are we supposed to believe that wilt was almost literally twice as good as hakeem or duncan was? (he averaged 50 and 20 something right? that's double duncan/hakeems annual 22/11s)

So if we look at it in context, how is Oscar's 30 10 10 that impressive? you telling me lebron's 30 7 7 today dont mean more? Tmac, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Wade would all average triple double during Oscars time (if they wanted to)

[G.O.A.T]

but stats back then were so skewed we have to put it in context right? otherwise are we supposed to believe that wilt was almost literally twice as good as hakeem or duncan was? (he averaged 50 and 20 something right? that's double duncan/hakeems annual 22/11s)

So if we look at it in context, how is Oscar's 30 10 10 that impressive? you telling me lebron's 30 7 7 today dont mean more? Tmac, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Wade would all average triple double during Oscars time (if they wanted to)

In the context of the entire history of the NBA no one has ever done it.

The 1960's were actually a dramatically more competitive era than today because their were eight or nine teams. Imagine how stacked every team would be if there were only 10 NBA teams today.

No yes the players of today are more skilled and bigger stronger and faster, but that's not because of anything they've done but rather because of what those who came before them did. They are the beneficiaries of the evolution of the Sport and the coaching. medicine and training relative to it.

Saying a player from today's era would dominate in the 1960's more than today is ridiculous. It's impossible to say how good they'd be if they didn't have access to the same coaching, training etc that they do today.

If you operate under the assumption that today's players are better because they are bigger stronger and faster than there is no reason to even rank any of them because they to will be surpassed by the next inevitable superior generation.

[magnax1]

Hes great, but I would like to see alot of players stats adjusted to an average pace just to see how big of a difference it makes. Anybody know how to do this? I just plain suck at math, so I have no idea.

[Dasher]

but stats back then were so skewed we have to put it in context right? otherwise are we supposed to believe that wilt was almost literally twice as good as hakeem or duncan was? (he averaged 50 and 20 something right? that's double duncan/hakeems annual 22/11s)

So if we look at it in context, how is Oscar's 30 10 10 that impressive? you telling me lebron's 30 7 7 today dont mean more? Tmac, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Wade would all average triple double during Oscars time (if they wanted to)Stats back then fit in with the context of the game back then. So they are not skewed. LeBron's 30/7/7 is impressive, but his game would be different had he played during that time. The refs would not have babied him, the lanes would not have been open for him to drive, his lack of a midrange game would expose him when the game slowed down, and a host of other factors would weigh on his numbers.

But anyway, LeBron's 30/7/7 is impressive during this era for the same reason Oscar's Triple double season is: No one else is putting up those kind of numbers.

[G.O.A.T]

^That's how it's done

[JustinJDW]

Overrated? Nah. The guy is the only player ever to average a Triple Double in a Season, yet you rarely hear anyone ever talk about him. I don't think he's overrated. I am not sure about putting him in the Top 10, but generally, I don't think he is overrated.

[Desperado]

but stats back then were so skewed we have to put it in context right? otherwise are we supposed to believe that wilt was almost literally twice as good as hakeem or duncan was? (he averaged 50 and 20 something right? that's double duncan/hakeems annual 22/11s)

So if we look at it in context, how is Oscar's 30 10 10 that impressive? you telling me lebron's 30 7 7 today dont mean more? Tmac, Kobe, Jordan, Lebron, Wade would all average triple double during Oscars time (if they wanted to)



Exactly. How are we supposed to be impressed with modern players stats/performances when Oscar averaged a triple double in the 60's and Wilt averaged 50ppg?

[jlauber]

Exactly. How are we supposed to be impressed with modern players stats/performances when Oscar averaged a triple double in the 60's and Wilt averaged 50ppg?

Quite honestly...because NO ONE else has EVER duplicated them.

I won't even get into Wilt's numbers which, adjusted for pace and era, and LEAGUE AVERAGE...would still be around 40 ppg in TODAY's era...

but as for Oscar's...he had that one season, of course, but he also nearly had THREE other's. Other than Magic Johnson's 81-82 (which is probably the most UNDER-RATED season, other than MANY of Wilt's...in NBA history)...no player then, or since then has even come close. And Oscar was not just putting up a triple-double season, but averaging 30 ppg on 50% shooting (in an era of .440 league-wide averages.)

[SinJackal]

Exactly. How are we supposed to be impressed with modern players stats/performances when Oscar averaged a triple double in the 60's and Wilt averaged 50ppg?

He just explained. You look at them within the context of the era. If LeBron is putting up 30/7/8 numbers, and nobody else is, it's impressive.

If Oscar is putting up a triple double average, and nobody else is even close, it's impressive.

Of course, nobody now can put up the numbers that Oscar did at the time, but if say, LeBron puts up a 25/8/9 season, it'll be pretty close to what Oscar did back in the day within the context of the current league's rules and playing styles.

Just like if a guy puts up say. . .32/16 a game, it'd be comparable to Wilt-type dominance of back in the day.

The numbers don't have to be the same, just compare 'em to the rest of the league. ^_^

[tpols]

He just explained. You look at them within the context of the era. If LeBron is putting up 30/7/8 numbers, and nobody else is, it's impressive.

If Oscar is putting up a triple double average, and nobody else is even close, it's impressive.

Of course, nobody now can put up the numbers that Oscar did at the time, but if say, LeBron puts up a 25/8/9 season, it'll be pretty close to what Oscar did back in the day within the context of the current league's rules and playing styles.

Just like if a guy puts up say. . .32/16 a game, it'd be comparable to Wilt-type dominance of back in the day.

The numbers don't have to be the same, just compare 'em to the rest of the league. ^_^
yeah what I don't under stand though is the fact that oscar never won anything. He put up great numbers but he never won as the man and never led his teams to any kind of greatness like the other all time greats have.

You said lebron's 30/7/7 is impressive just like oscar's 30/10/10 but lebron doesn't touch top ten so why should oscar (just saying cuz ive seen people put oscar in top 10-11)?

[SinJackal]

yeah what I don't under stand though is the fact that oscar never won anything. He put up great numbers but he never won as the man and never led his teams to any kind of greatness like the other all time greats have.

You said lebron's 30/7/7 is impressive just like oscar's 30/10/10 but lebron doesn't touch top ten so why should oscar (just saying cuz ive seen people put oscar in top 10-11)?

LeBron's career isn't anywhere near over, so he can't legitmately be high on the list.

I do agree though, Oscar, good and all, never won a title. Hard to say he's better than title winners. Still, a 31/11/12 season is pretty impressive. Even though Wilt had like a 50/25 average.

I don't think he'd be anywhere near a triple double now. He'd be around 23/7/8. People just like the mystique of him being the only guy to average a triple double.

It is a good argument though, that he didn't have great longevity, -and- not tons of titles

[Desperado]

This alone should eliminate him from serious top 10 discussion.



Which is ironic since people whine about Kobe having Shaq, Pippen having Jordan. Pippen has 6 rings, Kobe 4 yet Oscar's 1 ring is not denigrated like Pip's or 3 of Kobe's.



Exactly. K. Malone would hands down be top 10 all-time--if he won a championship. K. Malone made it to the NBA finals 3 times, the conference finals 6 times, 50+ games 12 times, 60+ thrice, and made the playoffs every single season of his career. All that is missing as far as his team accomplishments go is a ring. His individual accomplishments are as better than top 10 players like Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe.



No. See, West, Jerry. Oscar is overrated because he could win more than 50 games only once until he paired with Kareem--whose early years are better than the early years of anybody in league history. Kareem took a 27 win expansion team stocked with scrubs and made them 56 game winners who made it to the conference finals as a rookie. The next season Oscar arrived and they won 66 games and the title but not all of that 10 game improvement was obviously due to Oscar. Some of it was due to Kareem having a year under his belt.

Oscar=great player but has no business being in the top 10 of all-time. He is easily top 20 and probably top 15.


Pretty much....

[jlauber]

Oscar's lack of rings is easily explained. He played with mediocre rosters, and was up against a Celtic Dynasty that had FOUR to SEVEN HOFers on it every year that Russell played.

Oscar went to the Bucks, and in his first season, they won a championship. During his stay in Milwaukee the Bucks won 66, 63, 60, and 59 games. They went to Finals, winning one, and losing the other in seven games. AND, after he retired, they fell to 38-44.

[PowerGlove]

From the footage I've seen of Oscar, he doesn't seem to be that good by modern superstar standards (Kobe/Lebron/Wade). A good midrange shooter but pretty slow. He reminds me of Big Baby Davis in a way, and physical training would have helped him. He seems a pretty average playmaker and passer despite his huge assist numbers.

Meh, I think his triple double average comes from the fast pace of the game. Adjusted to today's pacing, he'd have around 20/7/7 which is still impressive, but the era was weaker. Adjusted to today's era, who knows, but the numbers would not look as impressive, that's for sure.

Lebron James seems to hold Oscar in high regard though, no surprise given his obsession with big $tats.

Did anyone else see this trash?

[Calabis]

Oscar's lack of rings is easily explained. He played with mediocre rosters, and was up against a Celtic Dynasty that had FOUR to SEVEN HOFers on it every year that Russell played.

Oscar went to the Bucks, and in his first season, they won a championship. During his stay in Milwaukee the Bucks won 66, 63, 60, and 59 games. They went to Finals, winning one, and losing the other in seven games. AND, after he retired, they fell to 38-44.

Thank you, its amazing that people can't see this, hell Wilt only got one, because the Celtics were so dominant, he then joined forces with West and Baylor to get another one. Oscar is by far the most underrated player imo

[Calabis]

Bill Russell once called him the GOAT. Here we have the greatest winner of all-time calling Oscar the best ever, and on the other side we have people chastising Oscar for not having won enough. Just saying, that is kind of ironic.

I hear you, listen to comments below(vid) from players and coaches of that era...but come to ISH and put him on your top 10 list and he's not worthy....laughable imo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4piRZ8_7GY

Also to the guy who compared him to Glen "Big Baby" Davis, lmao, look at the damn vid 2:00 minute mark enough said

[godofgods]

He's not. Kobe is.

[Gotterdammerung]

He just explained. You look at them within the context of the era. If LeBron is putting up 30/7/8 numbers, and nobody else is, it's impressive.

If Oscar is putting up a triple double average, and nobody else is even close, it's impressive.

Of course, nobody now can put up the numbers that Oscar did at the time, but if say, LeBron puts up a 25/8/9 season, it'll be pretty close to what Oscar did back in the day within the context of the current league's rules and playing styles.

Just like if a guy puts up say. . .32/16 a game, it'd be comparable to Wilt-type dominance of back in the day.

The numbers don't have to be the same, just compare 'em to the rest of the league. ^_^

Sad to say that this is probably the most intelligent thing anyone has said in this thread. Pace factor is a biased tool that assumes the flow of the game had no other factors besides how early players shot in the shotclock (defensive rules, 3 point range, coaches calling plays every possession, and so on), so whoever uses it automatically exposes their ignorance of basketball history and their bias towards today's version.

Personally I think Oscar Robertson was as versatile as Magic Johnson, and just as strong. He had no holes in his game - for his talents included all aspects of the game of basketball. He could do everything at the highest level: rebound, pass, set picks, dribble, box out, run and shut down opposing guards on defense.

Had Oscar known that the triple double was a big deal (it wasn't until ignorant commentators in the 80s made a big deal of Magic's feats) he claims he would have pulled it off his entire career. I don't know if that's even possible, but he did average a triple double for 5 years. He understood every nuance of the game, and as a perfectionist, he demanded the same from his inferior teammates. On top of that, he was also a ruthless and fierce competitor. Sheesh.

He didn't have 3 point range, but I bet you had there been a 3 point line back in the 60's he would have mastered it. Also, he didn't perform gravity defying feats like Michael Jordan, but Nate Thurmond said: "Oscar couldn't fly, but he did everything else better than Michael Jordan."

Yes, he didn't win titles after titles. But that's more about his team, than himself. Championships are about 12 guys and the coach, but Oscar didn't have anything close to the Celtics or the Sixers of the late 60s. There wasn't a single year you can pick out and expect the Royals to be the favorites.

Bottom line: He was the most perfect basketball player in the history of the game. :pimp:

[jlauber]

Sad to say that this is probably the most intelligent thing anyone has said in this thread. Pace factor is a biased tool that assumes the flow of the game had no other factors besides how early players shot in the shotclock (defensive rules, 3 point range, coaches calling plays every possession, and so on), so whoever uses it automatically exposes their ignorance of basketball history and their bias towards today's version.

Personally I think Oscar Robertson was as versatile as Magic Johnson, and just as strong. He had no holes in his game - for his talents included all aspects of the game of basketball. He could do everything at the highest level: rebound, pass, set picks, dribble, box out, run and shut down opposing guards on defense.

Had Oscar known that the triple double was a big deal (it wasn't until ignorant commentators in the 80s made a big deal of Magic's feats) he claims he would have pulled it off his entire career. I don't know if that's even possible, but he did average a triple double for 5 years. He understood every nuance of the game, and as a perfectionist, he demanded the same from his inferior teammates. On top of that, he was also a ruthless and fierce competitor. Sheesh.

He didn't have 3 point range, but I bet you had there been a 3 point line back in the 60's he would have mastered it. Also, he didn't perform gravity defying feats like Michael Jordan, but Nate Thurmond said: "Oscar couldn't fly, but he did everything else better than Michael Jordan."

Yes, he didn't win titles after titles. But that's more about his team, than himself. Championships are about 12 guys and the coach, but Oscar didn't have anything close to the Celtics or the Sixers of the late 60s. There wasn't a single year you can pick out and expect the Royals to be the favorites.

Bottom line: He was the most perfect basketball player in the history of the game. :pimp:

:applause:

[HBKMGa]

Yung D-Will is overrated

[evilmonkey]

Are you serious???

The man averaged 30 point triple doubles almost 5 times in a row..... 1 time he really did.

10.1 rpg 9.7 apg 30.5 ppg (his rookie season)
12.5 rpg 11.4 apg 30.8 ppg
10.4 rpg 9.5 apg 28.3 ppg
9.9 rpg 11.0 apg 31.4 ppg
9.0 rpg 11.5 apg 30.4 ppg

He was the first big Point-Guard in NBA history, the 1st ever also Point-Forward, he revolutionized the PG position (something Magic Johnson instead gets the credit for stupidly enough). He would dominate the league switching between 4 positions.

His ranking in the books is purely based on legendary untouchable productions which will never happen again and legendary player completeness, most talanted, most skilled, most versatile player in NBA history...... hence why such a human being diserves a spot on Top 10.

YES he played in a weaker ERA....

YES he played in a high pace ERA....

But is it his fault??? Why didnt anybody else do what he did??

WILL WE FAULT MICHAEL JORDAN 50 YEARS FROM NOW IN THE FUTURE AND THINK MICHAEL JORDANS NUMBERS WERE OVERRATED TO????????? BECAUSE CLEARLY BASKETBALL WILL EVOLVE THEN AND WE WILL LIKE ALWAYS THINK OLD LEGENDS WERE FRAUDS????

You cant use that logic! You base greatness on his ERA, what he did for that ERA, for his time in the NBA..... you base his greatness for what he did! Not for what he would and wouldnt do today!!

[G.O.A.T]

The Greatest Triple Threat of All-Time


Alright, lets get it out of the way…yes Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double in 1962: 30.8 points per game 12.5 rebounds per game and 11.8 assists. Insane numbers to be sure, put in the context of their era they become a little less so, but still among the great, if not the greatest all-around statistical season in NBA history. But it goes beyond that, way beyond when talking about what made Oscar Robertson the games first truly great all-around player and the standard by which all around players are measured. Let’s start with this: 1961-62 was the only single season he averaged a triple double, but, if you combine the numbers from his first six seasons as a professional, in 460 games played, Robertson averaged over 30 points 10.0 rebounds and 10.7 assists per game. That’s right; he averaged a triple-double not for one season, but for six. No other player comes close, even adjusted for era; only Magic is in the stratosphere. So there is no questioning Oscar’s incredible skill set, ability that was borne of a basketball education that came from two strong influences at two opposite ends of the spectrum...


Oscar and Wilt would have been High School to Pro guys in the modern era. They came into the NBA with games much more polished than today's players because they were forced to refine their game and seek out challenges in the off-seasons. Legend has Oscar stealing the show at a pick-up pro games as far back as 1955, when he was just 17.

[Psileas]

Oscar and Wilt would have been High School to Pro guys in the modern era. They came into the NBA with games much more polished than today's players because they were forced to refine their game and seek out challenges in the off-seasons. Legend has Oscar stealing the show at a pick-up pro games as far back as 1955, when he was just 17.

I've also read stories about Oscar playing against pros as a high schooler and more than holding his own. In the late 50's, he was allegedly challenged by Jack Twyman in a 1 on 1 game against him. Twyman was establishing himself as one of the NBA's highest scorers at that time and Oscar whipped him, by something like 20-0 -- I can't remember the exact number of baskets the winner should get, but I do remember that Twyman was completely shut down or maybe never had the chance to get the ball, if the scorer kept possession.

[jlauber]

Oscar and Wilt would have been High School to Pro guys in the modern era. They came into the NBA with games much more polished than today's players because they were forced to refine their game and seek out challenges in the off-seasons. Legend has Oscar stealing the show at a pick-up pro games as far back as 1955, when he was just 17.

I know this is a topic about Oscar, but I loved your take on the fact that Wilt and Oscar would have been able to leap from HS to the Pros. In fact, Wilt was DRAFTED while he was in HS (in an NBA territorial draft.)

How talented was Chamberlain in HS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


During summer vacations, Chamberlain worked as a bellhop in Kutsher's Hotel. Red Auerbach, the coach of the Boston Celtics, spotted the talented teenager there and had him play 1-on-1 against Kansas University standout and national champion, B. H. Born, elected the Most Valuable Player of the 1953 NCAA Finals. Chamberlain won 25–10; Born was so dejected that he gave up a promising NBA career and became a tractor engineer ("If there were high school kids that good, I figured I wasn't going to make it to the pros"),[18] and Auerbach wanted Chamberlain to go to a New England university, so he could draft him as a territorial pick for the Celtics, but Chamberlain did not respond.[18]

When you take into account that Chamberlain averaged 38-27 in his rookie season, the assumption has to be that had he been able to jump directly to the Pros, that he probably would have had somewhere around another 8000 points tacked on to his career. Not only that, but when Wilt left the game, at age 37, in his last season, he led the NBA in rebounding, was voted first-team all-defense, and set an NBA FG% mark of .727 that may never be broken, and you just have to wonder how many years Wilt had left in him?

BTW, Kareem was another that probably could have jumped right to the Pros, as well. Can you imagine what the career scoring mark would look like had he had that opportunity?

[PHILA]

I've often thought about this and a lot of you guys have a good point. To me Oscar isn't in the top 10. Definitely top 20-30 though. Can't argue with what he did on the basketball court. The man was amazing. Being the only player in NBA history to average a triple double for an entire year is an awesome accomplishment no matter what. I just can't rank him in the top 10 overall. My list looks like this:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Larry Bird
4) Magic Johnson
5) Bill Russell
6) Wilt Chamberlain
7) Hakeem Olajuwon
8) Shaquille O'Neal
9) Tim Duncan
10) Jerry West
Jerry West at #10 and Oscar at arguably #30? Perhaps because one was a Laker?

As noted on this board, prior to this past decade, the East has been the West's superior. The '63 Royals were switched from the West to the Eastern Conference following the Philadelphia Warriors move to San Francisco. This after they took the world champion Celtics to a Game 7. Had they stayed in the West, they probably make the Finals from '63-'67, as opposed to getting knocked out by the two most powerful teams we have ever seen in this league. Jerry West would be the first to tell you that losing in the Finals is no better than losing in the first round. As Wilt Chamberlain has said, "It doesn't matter if a point or two made the difference, all people watching remember is that you lost."

As noted by Bill Simmons in his book, there were four Eastern teams and five West teams prior to the Warriors move. After the move, the Royals switched to the East to balance the teams. However the next season, the Chicago Zephyrs moved to Baltimore, yet they remained a Western Conference team.



A good midrange shooter but pretty slow. He reminds me of Big Baby Davis in a way


:facepalm



http://espn.go.com/photo/2006/0504/nba_g_robertson_395.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4piRZ8_7GY

For there was no one thing this man could not do on the floor. Not flashy, not particularly dependent on his athleticism. This man was as legit a floor general and point guard as one could be in an era where there was no distinction between either position. Extremely versatile as well. Magic may arguably be the best overall, but Oscar was at least his equal in the half court. A very strong guard and amongst the top post players ever as well as the most fundamentally sound offensive player to ever play the sport. His jumper alone is evidence of this, as there was no over reliance on his supporting hand in his shooting motion. Indeed as beautiful and effective a touch as has ever been seen in the history of professional basketball. In the words of Wilt Chamberlain, "If I had my pick, I'd select Oscar first."

He not only mastered the game from a psychological perspective, but also from a spiritual one. He would routinely and instinctively react to the defense and make the proper play more often than not. Robertson also was a ball dominant guard due to the coaches understanding his supreme play making & orchestrating abilities. In the words of Bill Russell he was a quarterback and a coach on the floor, for the Big O was the only player to have had Russell uncertain on the defensive end, not knowing when to double. Robertson was the prime master at sizing up the defense, reading it, and feeling it's cracks and openings. The true essence of basketball and the wise philosophy of Robertson was to milk a situation or a mismatch to it's fullest and get guys off at the exact proper moment during the game.

In the words of your idol Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, "Oscar had a knack of getting me the ball in the right place at the right time. Not too high, didn't want to go up and lose the ground you fought for. Not too low, didn't want to bend for the ball and create a scramble down there. Never wanted to put the ball on the floor where some little guy could come in and steal it away. Oscar knew all of this, and his genius was, whether two men were in his face trying to prevent him from making a pass or in mine trying to prevent me from receiving it, in getting me the ball chest-high so I could turn and hook in one unbroken motion."


He was very skilled with the ball as well as off the ball, as evidenced by his excellent attributes here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8YNXx6bsrQ) such as his:

*his supreme touch on a pass (1:42 mark)

*turnaround jumper (2:00 mark)

*hard drive & hesitation move followed by a jumper over Hondo (3:43 mark)

*his instinct even in an isolation to use screens to his benefit with a beautiful jumper (5:05 mark)

*low hard protective dribble drive & jumper on K.C. (5:30 mark)





Also here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe3zWQqV554) one can see more of his spectacular play:

*His hard drive right and pull up jumper on Hondo, much like that of Jordan or Bryant in later years (3:30 mark)

*His brilliant stutter dribble and jumper on Nellie off the screen (3:55 mark)

*Another fall away jumper over Hondo (5:21 mark)

*And everyone's favorite, his brilliant use of the Lucas screen and tough jumper with Russell in his face. Again, a sampling of the "tough shot making ability" that eveyone so often admires in Jordan & especially Bryant. (5:33 mark)

*His protective dribble fake left-go right pump fake breathtaking jumper with his signature smooth touch release.





And a mix again as can be seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecgwZVnvPIc):

* Jab foot fake followed by a dribble and jumper (0:20 mark)

*His baseline jumper off the gorgeous finger roll pass from Wilt demonstrates how difficult it was to block his jumper with his unique but proper release of the ball. (0:38 mark)

*Flawless bounce pass off a pick & roll through traffic to Embry (0:43 mark)

*Hard drive to the right and fall away jumper, again much like that of Jordan or Bryant. (1:12 mark)

*Magnificent rebounding ability demonstrated by his wrestling with Chamberlain of the ball (1:50 mark)

*His marvelous aerial drive & dish (3:05 mark)





And finally here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RYStydczE) throughout the video one can see his numerous turn around fadeaway jumpers, much in the mold of Jordan or Bryant. Ray Allen also speaks in high regard of the legend.




http://i48.tinypic.com/280lcah.gif


All the skills in the more modern athletes including Jordan or Bryant's fade away jumpshot & Magic's protective dribble isolation back down & spin for a layup. All that was done by Oscar beforehand, for he understood as well as anybody that the game was won and lost in the paint. If you gave him a 12 footer, he'd work for a 10 footer. And so on until he was at the rim in accordance to his signature move where he would spin by the defensive player with his arm in a lightning quick motion. And Oscar was very strong at the guard position, to the point where some opponents related incidental contact with him to being hit by NFL legend Jim Brown.


An example of Robertson's supreme yet demanding leadership can be evidenced by Wayne Embry's first fist fight in the NBA. The Royals were playing the Pistons, & Embry was being illegally held up by Ray Scott with the ref missing the foul two times on two pick & roll attempts. Oscar slapped his hands together and said, "Dammit Wayne, how long are you going to let him mess up our plays?" The next trip up the floor, Scott held him again, and Embry cold cocked him. He would later say to a friend, "You know what it's like to have Oz on you." Much like Michael Jordan in later years, Robertson was a leader by his mere intimidating presence.

[PHILA]

'Running a team is a business for them. Well my business is playing. I'd performed as well as any player ever had, and the team needed to pay me accordingly. If they couldn't, then they shouldn't be in business.

I was told the matter wasn't up for negotiation.

If there was another league (this was a couple years before the ABA formed), I might have jumped to it as soon as I left the office. Instead, I did what I could do, which was to hold out. I didn't call them. They didn't call me. It was a cold war, and it stretched for days. For a week. Two. "Listen," one anonymous Royal told Sports Illustrated, "they can cut me 25% and give it to Oscar if it means bringing him back. That's how important he is to us." It's probably a good thing that the guy did not identify himself or repeat that sentence around the front office. They might have done it.

I called one of the reporters I knew in New York and said I wanted to be traded.

The way the Royals front office dealt with negotiations angered me more than their ridiculous contract offer. At this point in my career, I said I deserved respect, not ultimatums. They had refused to negotiate. They'd come to the table with a crazy, ridiculously low offer and refused to budge. They were the ones putting pressure on me. If I want to make any deal at all if I want to play ball and help the team, now I'm the one who has to cave. On top of this, management starting leaking untruths in the press, inflating my demands and publishing my salary. In one statement, management would say it was unethical to discuss contract negotiations in the press. In the next sentence, the same general manager would discuss the details of my existing contract.

I wasn't going to be bullied or blackmailed by the Royals management. I told the press I was negotiating a barnstorming tour. I said I was going to play locally, out on the West Coast, maybe in Florida. It wasn't true, but the Globetrotters were still around so there had to be some money made in touring. Why not find out?

Five days before the season opened, I came to contract terms with the Royals. I signed for about $70,000, various bonuses based on the gate, and the use of a car.

Two seasons later, we went through the entire standoff again.

That year I ended up missing training camp and the entire exhibition season. The press in Cincinnati started to heap abuse on me. Greedy was the word they chose.

When I sat down with Pepper Wilson that year, I said, "If I am greedy, I learned from you."

Management just looked at me. What could they possibly say? Who is greedier - the guy who wants to get paid what he is worth, or the team that indentures its players through perpetually unfair and rigged contracts and refuses to pay those players what they are worth?

The truth is, management in Cincinnati wasn't very effective. Before I ever came into the league, they had a chance to draft Bill Russell, and they chose not to do it. They whiffed on Willis Reed. They had the #1 draft picks for two straight years - Bob Boozer and Jerry Lucas. Those guys signed with other leagues; hell; the only reason they ever came to the Royals and made us a decent team was because the ABL folded and they had nowhere else to go. In 1967, when the ABA first formed, the first pick of their draft was a 6'9 forward named Mel Daniels. Mel ended up being one of the best players in the ABA. I believe he won their MVP award in the league's second year, and I know that his jersey was among the first to be retired by the Indiana Pacers. Well, guess what team he abandoned so he could join a league that, at that point, did not even exist?

Reporters always called Pepper Wilson one of the most popular general managers in the league. He was a nice man, but maybe all the other GM's loved him so much because he couldn't make a good draft pick, couldn't swing any shrewd trades. If I gave you a list of the player Cincinnati drafted while I was with them, you'd have to be a hard-core basketball fan to recognize any of them.

By contrast, the Celtics would reload and restock. Tom Heinsohn's gone? Here comes Don Nelson. Sam Jones is retiring? Here comes John Havlicek. Here comes Jo Jo White. Some of it was luck. One year Tom Wood was sitting next to Red Auerbach at a draft meeting in New York. Boston had won the title again, so naturally they had the bottom choice. Auerbach turned to Wood and said, "What am I going to do? This is a pretty frail group left. . . There's some kid from Ohio State here with a funny name - Havlicek - what do you hear about him?"

Wood told him, "All I know is that our scout claims he's a better ballplayer than Lucas, but we've already got Lucas. So it doesn't make any difference."

"Well," says Auerbach, "he's only 6'4 and awfully short for the pros. I guess I've got no other choice. What the hell. I'll take him."

So help me, that's how the Celtics stumbled onto Havlicek.

If you look at professional basketball and how a team builds a winning franchise, it's pretty simple. You have to restock your team with good draft picks, and you have to make key trades. The teams that don't, don't win. Flatly put, we could not do it. After we traded Bob Boozer, we traded other key players. We got rid of Tom Hawkins. Fought with Happy Hairston. Management kept bringing in guards to replace me when we needed forwards and centers. We got rid of one forward, Bob Love, because he had a speech impediment. The team thought he was dumb, so they traded him to Chicago. Of course he became a superstar there. We had one pick, Larry Chaney from Arkansas, who wasn't married. But we drafted Dave Zollner, who was married. Larry Chaney was a far better player, but we kept Dave, because he was white and was married. That's how the Cincinnati Royals did things.'

[Yung D-Will]

My question to you old school fans


Was Oscar Really a better player then West?

All I have is limited footage to go on.

[Yung D-Will]

Yung D-Will is overrated

I played in a weak era.

[Yung D-Will]

.....----------

[Pointguard]

One was peer respect. Russell, Wilt and Kareem all said he was the best at one point. He was the big fundamental and influenced others to be fundamental. He didn't really have a weakness. First guy I see dribble hard with the weak hand. Hey, these things are relative.

He shot 485% in an era that was far below that and which is still top notch in this era for an assist leader. His all around game as a point and shooting guard (well they were just guards then anyway) is hard to match up with now. Wilt was the first to excel in all responsibilities at his position and "O" was the first at his position. First guy you hear other players say he got you the ball exactly where you liked it.

First guy at the guard position to use all strength, power, speed, guile, athletism savvy and exceptional skill at that position. And he used it all at a very high level. Totally elevated his whole position. Had to have been more impactful back then than Magic in the 80's.

As far as the win thing is concerned Basketball is a dynasty sport. Not everybody gets around to it. If Wilt or Oscar are on the Celtics then hands down their the greatest ever - GOAT just can't be that fickle. I think sometimes you have to be able to decipher what greatness is. If you have one overriding criteria such as wins then why do you watch the game? Just get result sheet and call it a day. The process and how things happen mean nothing to you. Greatness could smack you in the face and yall will be lost looking for the end of the game. What a waste.

[allball]

Oscar was .5 or less away in rebounds or assists from averaging a triple double for 4 straight seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

[Duncan21formvp]

Oscar was .5 or less away in rebounds or assists from averaging a triple double for 4 straight seasons.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html

That doesn't matter, he didn't really help his team win.

[KevinNYC]

oscar robertson is overated the only thing that is spectaculer was average a triple double a whole season

If you think Oscar = one triple double season, you are discounting his achievement. Look at his first five years.

1960-61 reb asst pts
1960-61 10.1 9.7 30.5
1961-62 12.5 11.4 30.8
1962-63 10.4 9.5 28.3
1963-64 9.9 11.0 31.4
1964-65 9.0 11.5 30.4

Another 20 assists in 60-61 and another 7 rebounds in 63-64 and he would have three triple-double seasons. With two other seasons right on the border line.

So his first five seasons average out to a triple double.
10.4r 10.6a 30.3p


He was doing Magic Johnson and Larry Bird stuff two decades earlier. What if those guys were on poor teams would they have dominated the 80's like they did? Or would they have put up spectacular numbers on bad teams?


He led his team to 50+ wins just once in his career. Just as we have to adjust 1960 individual stats downwards due to the fast pace, you need to adjust team achievements to account for the much smaller league where it was much, much harder to win 50 games. You can't use both of these arguments against Robertson.

For most of the 60's they played 80 games a season and not 82, first of all. In 2011, there were nine teams to win 50 games or more. Last year there were 12. From 1960 to 1967 there was never more than two teams to more than 50 games. In 1968 in jumps to 4 teams. Why? The league expanded added two teams who lost a lot: The Seattle SuperSonics (23-59) and the San Diego Rockets (15-67)

To cherry-pick and compare two years, we see that 1966-67 20% of the league won 50 games, whereas in 2009-2010 40% of the league won 50 games.

[IGOTGAME]

To cherry-pick and compare two years, we see that 1966-67 20% of the league won 50 games, whereas in 2009-2010 40% of the league won 50 games.

you really did cherry pick stats. Let me play too.

1968-69 - 28 % win 50+ games

2010-11- 29.3% win 50 games.

[KevinNYC]

you really did cherry pick stats. Let me play too.
1968-69 - 28 % win 50+ games
2010-11- 29.3% win 50 games.

You're proving my point, rapid expansion in the NBA made it easier to get 50 wins.
1966–67 expands to 10 teams 2 teams over 50 wins
1967–68 expands to 12 teams 4 teams over 50 wins
1968-69 expands to 14 teams 4 teams over 50 wins.

Also, looking this up you allow me to correct my math. I assumed that the early 60 NBA had 8 teams, when it actually had 9 teams. So rechecking my math I see that it was not just a single season, it was first seven years of Oscar's career only 20% of NBA teams had a 50 win season (55 chances, 11 teams did it.) The low being 1964-65 when only 1 of 9 teams made it (11%).

[Sarcastic]

Making threads about asking if someone is overrated is overrated.

[KevinNYC]

2010-11- 29.3% win 50 games.

How do you get to 29.3 %? I count 9 teams with 50 wins this season and my calculator gives me and even 30%

[KevinNYC]

Had Oscar known that the triple double was a big deal (it wasn't until ignorant commentators in the 80s made a big deal of Magic's feats) he claims he would have pulled it off his entire career.

Oscar has said he never looked at the stat sheet period.

The term "triple-double" was popularized by the Lakers PR guy when Magic started getting them and he wanted people to understand how special this was.


UGH, just noticed the date on the first post is from 2009

[Heavincent]

Someone that is considered the most overrated player in history is no longer overrated.

[magnax1]

I find it funny that Jerry West is pointed out specifically as someone he doesn't have a case over when pretty much everyone that's watched them live agrees that Oscar was quite a bit better in their primes.

[bizil]

Big O no way no how is overrated. If averaging a triple double in a season is so easy then why wasn't ANYBODY else doing that shit. At 6'5 and 225 Big O could play PG, SG, SF, and some PF in that era. He even to this day is arguably the best dual threat guard (scoring and passing) of all time. He was prolific at each facet at the same time. And he was a very good defender as well.

But I do feel guards like Magic, MJ, and Kobe have passed him by. I feel Big O is still 4th GOAT guard. Any GOAT list factors longevity, talent, numbers, solo accolades, and team accolades. Plus it factors impact on the L in terms of rule changes, redefining a position, or being a transcendant star of the game. Big O redefined point guard play so much and accomplished so much he deserved a wing in the HOF. At WORST he's the 11th greatest player of all time. At best he can be ranked easily in the top ten.

[Collie]

Oscar was basically the equivalent of the guard Lebron or even Shaq in the 60's He was so far beyond anyone physically and athletically that he rebounded like a forward. When the league grew more athletic, his rebounds dropped to a still respectable 6 or so. Still impressive, but makes you realize that his triple double was a product more of his era's pace than anything.

[pauk]

anybody who doesnt have oscar robertson in top 10........ needs to first slap himself on the head and then go to the library to research very carefully what he did and what he did for the league......... and then end up with slapping himself on the head again... and go home and start another thread on ISH to APPOLOGISE...............

[Doranku]

anybody who doesnt have oscar robertson in top 10........ needs to first slap himself on the head and then go to the library to research very carefully what he did and what he did for the league......... and then end up with slapping himself on the head again... and go home and start another thread on ISH to APPOLOGISE...............

...I think you're the one that needs to go to the library.

[ShaqAttack3234]

anybody who doesnt have oscar robertson in top 10........ needs to first slap himself on the head and then go to the library to research very carefully what he did and what he did for the league......... and then end up with slapping himself on the head again... and go home and start another thread on ISH to APPOLOGISE...............

Get past the inflated stats, moron. Oscar is not top 10.

[pauk]

...I think you're the one that needs to go to the library.

....i think you are the one that needs to get of kobes jockstrap and get on my jockstrap instead.... lol @ this toddler...

[Doranku]

....i think you are the one that needs to get of kobes jockstrap and get on my jockstrap instead.... lol @ this toddler...

Awkward.

Oscar is in no way, shape, or form a top 10 player of all time. Imagine LeBron only leading his team to one season of 50+ wins. Then imagine him winning one title with Wade and Bosh with Bosh (for the most part) matching his production and Wade clearly being the best player. Saying that version of LeBron is a top 10 player is like saying Oscar is a top 10 player.

Simply ridiculous.

[millwad]

Wilt Chamberlain is the most overrated player in NBA history..

[gengiskhan]

No.

Kobe Bean Bryant is the most overrated player in the NBA History.

Oscar atleast did something out of the ordinary. Ave Triple double stat for the whole season & repeated it again.

MJ atleast did something out of the ordinary. win scoring title, MVP & DPOY in the same yr.

Hakeem did something out of the ordinary. win MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP in same yr.

What has kobe done out of the ordinary. Nothing. Just copying MJ doesn't merit to be Top 10 GOATs by default.

[jlauber]

Oscar has actually become one of the most UNDERRATED players in NBA history.

First of all, let's dispense with these RIDICULOUS "pace" arguments once-and-for-all. In Oscar's first FIVE straight seasons, the NBA averaged 30-10-10 ...COMBINED. The league's averaged between 115-119 ppg. In the 2010-2011 season, the NBA averaged 100 ppg. Let's see...that means that in 2011, the NBA was at 85.4% of Oscar's NBA. That means that at 2011 levels, Oscar would STILL have averaged 25.6 ppg. BUT, Oscar also shot MUCH higher against HIS era. For example, in his '63 season, Oscar shot .518...in a league that shot .441. So, put THAT Oscar into 2011, in a league that shot .459, and Oscar then would have shot .539...and then you could add another ppg to his average, or 26.6 ppg. BTW, as a sidenote...take Oscar's .518 in '63, and put him in MJ's '87 season, in which the league shot .480...and Oscar would have shot somewhere around .570!

Of course, Oscar was NEVER a pure "gunner" either. In his highest shootint seasons, he took 22-23 FGAs per game. Players like Kobe and MJ took FAR more shots, in league's that shot less. And given the more "perimeter-oriented" NBA that we see in today's game, only a complete idiot would suggest that Oscar couldn't shoot MORE. Give Oscar 27 FGAs, and he would easily average 30 ppg.

How about assists? This is another fallacy. Assists were HARDER to get in the 60's than in even TODAY's NBA. For example, in Oscar's '65 season, in which he averaged 11.5 apg, the league averaged 1676 per team (yes, in 80 games.) How about 2011? 1763. Even adding 40 more assists to Oscar's '65 season, the league would STILL have been considerably less than in 2011.

So, now that we KNOW that Oscar would be capable of 30 ppg AND 10 apg...that leaves only rebounding. Granted, today's NBA is at about 70% of Oscar's era. Take Oscar's best rebounding season, at 12.5 rpg, and he would "only be at around 9 rpg in TODAY's NBA.

So, maybe Oscar would not be a 30-10-10 guy in TODAY's NBA, BUT, he would certainly be capable of 30-8-10...and on .525+ shooting.

And BTW, most publications at the time listed Oscar at 6-5 and 225 lbs. Measure him in SHOES, and suddenly he would be at least 6-6. How many 6-6, 225 lb. PG's are in TODAY's NBA?

How about Oscar the "loser?" Interesting...Oscar joined a Bucks team that had gone 56-26 the year before, and were wiped out by the Knicks, 4-1, in the ECF's...and then took them to a 66-16 record, and a TITLE, in his very FIRST season. Then, he followed that up by leading the Bucks to records of 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and another Finals.) How about AFTER Oscar retired? They IMMEDIATELY plunged to a 38-44 record, and Kareem never came CLOSE to another Finals again (and mostly early round exits) until MAGIC arrived in 79-80. Hmmm...maybe Oscar wasn't a "loser" after all.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

No.

Kobe Bean Bryant is the most overrated player in the NBA History.

Oscar atleast did something out of the ordinary. Ave Triple double stat for the whole season & repeated it again.

MJ atleast did something out of the ordinary. win scoring title, MVP & DPOY in the same yr.

Hakeem did something out of the ordinary. win MVP, DPOY, Finals MVP in same yr.

What has kobe done out of the ordinary. Nothing. Just copying MJ doesn't merit to be Top 10 GOATs by default.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc185/Strikeninja95/Kobegif1.gif

[jlauber]

Wilt Chamberlain is the most overrated player in NBA history..

The RECORD BOOK says otherwise.

And no one else is on the same side of the galaxy.

[ShaqAttack3234]

So, maybe Oscar would not be a 30-10-10 guy in TODAY's NBA, BUT, he would certainly be capable of 30-8-10...and on .525+ shooting.

:roll:


How about Oscar the "loser?" Interesting...Oscar joined a Bucks team that had gone 56-26 the year before, and were wiped out by the Knicks, 4-1, in the ECF's...and then took them to a 66-16 record, and a TITLE, in his very FIRST season. Then, he followed that up by leading the Bucks to records of 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and another Finals.) How about AFTER Oscar retired? They IMMEDIATELY plunged to a 38-44 record

Once again proving that you completely lack the ability to look into anything with the slightest bit of depth and that you only see what you want to see.

Milwaukee was in their inaugural season in 1969 and went 27-55. Kareem and Bob Dandridge were both rookies on the 1970 team that improved to 56-26. Naturally, you'd expect both to improve in their second season, and they did. So Oscar joined a team with the best player in the league that were a 56-26 team bound to improve, and that's the team he won his ONLY title on? :oldlol:

That 1975 Bucks team that went 38-44 was without Kareem for 17 games....they went 3-14 without him and 35-30 with him. Lucius Allen who was also an 18/4/5/2, 50 FG% player in 1974 went from playing 72 games in '74 to just 10 in '75.

But yeah....those things aren't worth mentioning :rolleyes:

[Eat Like A Bosh]

Why didn't Oscar win a single title before Kareem?
Why did he only have 1 winning record?

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/6/6c/Oscar-can.jpg

[PHILA]

Why didn't Oscar win a single title before Kareem?
Why did he only have 1 winning record?


The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game - Oscar Robertson (2003)


Running a team is a business for them. Well my business is playing. I'd performed as well as any player ever had, and the team needed to pay me accordingly. If they couldn't, then they shouldn't be in business.

I was told the matter wasn't up for negotiation.

If there was another league (this was a couple years before the ABA formed), I might have jumped to it as soon as I left the office. Instead, I did what I could do, which was to hold out. I didn't call them. They didn't call me. It was a cold war, and it stretched for days. For a week. Two. "Listen," one anonymous Royal told Sports Illustrated, "they can cut me 25% and give it to Oscar if it means bringing him back. That's how important he is to us." It's probably a good thing that the guy did not identify himself or repeat that sentence around the front office. They might have done it.

I called one of the reporters I knew in New York and said I wanted to be traded.

The way the Royals front office dealt with negotiations angered me more than their ridiculous contract offer. At this point in my career, I said I deserved respect, not ultimatums. They had refused to negotiate. They'd come to the table with a crazy, ridiculously low offer and refused to budge. They were the ones putting pressure on me. If I want to make any deal at all if I want to play ball and help the team, now I'm the one who has to cave. On top of this, management starting leaking untruths in the press, inflating my demands and publishing my salary. In one statement, management would say it was unethical to discuss contract negotiations in the press. In the next sentence, the same general manager would discuss the details of my existing contract.

I wasn't going to be bullied or blackmailed by the Royals management. I told the press I was negotiating a barnstorming tour. I said I was going to play locally, out on the West Coast, maybe in Florida. It wasn't true, but the Globetrotters were still around so there had to be some money made in touring. Why not find out?

Five days before the season opened, I came to contract terms with the Royals. I signed for about $70,000, various bonuses based on the gate, and the use of a car.

Two seasons later, we went through the entire standoff again.

That year I ended up missing training camp and the entire exhibition season. The press in Cincinnati started to heap abuse on me. Greedy was the word they chose.

When I sat down with Pepper Wilson that year, I said, "If I am greedy, I learned from you."

Management just looked at me. What could they possibly say? Who is greedier - the guy who wants to get paid what he is worth, or the team that indentures its players through perpetually unfair and rigged contracts and refuses to pay those players what they are worth?

The truth is, management in Cincinnati wasn't very effective. Before I ever came into the league, they had a chance to draft Bill Russell, and they chose not to do it. They whiffed on Willis Reed. They had the #1 draft picks for two straight years - Bob Boozer and Jerry Lucas. Those guys signed with other leagues; hell; the only reason they ever came to the Royals and made us a decent team was because the ABL folded and they had nowhere else to go. In 1967, when the ABA first formed, the first pick of their draft was a 6'9 forward named Mel Daniels. Mel ended up being one of the best players in the ABA. I believe he won their MVP award in the league's second year, and I know that his jersey was among the first to be retired by the Indiana Pacers. Well, guess what team he abandoned so he could join a league that, at that point, did not even exist?

Reporters always called Pepper Wilson one of the most popular general managers in the league. He was a nice man, but maybe all the other GM's loved him so much because he couldn't make a good draft pick, couldn't swing any shrewd trades. If I gave you a list of the player Cincinnati drafted while I was with them, you'd have to be a hard-core basketball fan to recognize any of them.

By contrast, the Celtics would reload and restock. Tom Heinsohn's gone? Here comes Don Nelson. Sam Jones is retiring? Here comes John Havlicek. Here comes Jo Jo White. Some of it was luck. One year Tom Wood was sitting next to Red Auerbach at a draft meeting in New York. Boston had won the title again, so naturally they had the bottom choice. Auerbach turned to Wood and said, "What am I going to do? This is a pretty frail group left. . . There's some kid from Ohio State here with a funny name - Havlicek - what do you hear about him?"

Wood told him, "All I know is that our scout claims he's a better ballplayer than Lucas, but we've already got Lucas. So it doesn't make any difference."

"Well," says Auerbach, "he's only 6'4 and awfully short for the pros. I guess I've got no other choice. What the hell. I'll take him."

So help me, that's how the Celtics stumbled onto Havlicek.

If you look at professional basketball and how a team builds a winning franchise, it's pretty simple. You have to restock your team with good draft picks, and you have to make key trades. The teams that don't, don't win. Flatly put, we could not do it. After we traded Bob Boozer, we traded other key players. We got rid of Tom Hawkins. Fought with Happy Hairston.

Management kept bringing in guards to replace me when we needed forwards and centers. We got rid of one forward, Bob Love, because he had a speech impediment. The team thought he was dumb, so they traded him to Chicago. Of course he became a superstar there. We had one pick, Larry Chaney from Arkansas, who wasn't married. But we drafted Dave Zollner, who was married. Larry Chaney was a far better player, but we kept Dave, because he was white and was married. That's how the Cincinnati Royals did things.

[jlauber]

Why didn't Oscar win a single title before Kareem?
Why did he only have 1 winning record?

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/6/6c/Oscar-can.jpg

Why did MJ play on FIVE losing team's in his career? Why did his team's go 1-9 in his first ten playoff games? How come the '94 Bulls went 55-27 withOUT him....which was just shy of their 57-25 mark the year before?

Oscar played in the era of the greatest dynasty in major professional team sports, as well as the Chamberlain-led teams and the Baylor-West teams. For those that point out the FEW quality players that Oscar played alongside, they tend to intentionally leave out the fact that the good team's in the 60's, particularly those Celtic teams, were LOADED. My god, the Knicks from '68 thru '73 had anywhere from FOUR to SIX HOFers. Of course, Russell's Celtics had anywhere from SIX to NINE HOFers.

[PHILA]

http://www.nba.com/bucks/features/hofmann_110502.html


[I]A Need for Speed

May 2, 2011

by Dale Hofmann


Sometimes the shortest distance between two points isn

[PHILA]

The inside game: race, power, and politics in the NBA - Wayne Embry


http://i.imgur.com/r0muN.png
http://i.imgur.com/Pl86t.png

[jlauber]

Why didn't Oscar win a single title before Kareem?
Why did he only have 1 winning record?

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/6/6c/Oscar-can.jpg

Of course, when Oscar joined the Bucks, he took a 56-26 team that had been blown out by the Knicks in the playoffs in '70, to a 66-16 record, and then a dominating title. After that he was a major reason why Milwaukee went 63-19, 60-22, and then 59-23 (and another trip to the Finals.) What happened AFTER he retired? The Bucks plummetted to a 38-44 record, and then traded Kareem off to the Lakers, where he routinely led loaded rosters to early playoff exits...in the weakest five seasons in NBA history ('75 thru '79.)

[gengiskhan]

Funny how today's 10 yrs old Kobe'tards, Wadoholics think:

Big O is workhorse like so he is overrated. :roll:

Big O has no charisma to his game, he is overrated. :roll:

Big O is not flashy like Kobe, he is overrated. :roll: :facepalm

Big O cannot dunk like Wade, he is overrated. :roll: :facepalm

Big O dominated on crapy garbage franchise, he is overrated. :roll: :facepalm

Big O dominated when only Big Men like wilt, russell, Kareem were rewarded, he is overrated. :roll:

Big O dominated a sport when rules were completely non perimeter friendly & Big Men favored. he is overrated.

Still Big O 1 MVP, Kobe 1 MVP. Shaq 1 MVP. Big O is overrated & kobe, Shaq are not. :rolleyes:

[brownmamba00]

:lol @this moron

[Duranthebest]

Who here saw Oscar Robertson play?

[colts19]

My best friend in high school played basketball and I went to his games so when they played against Oscar my friend got to guard him. It was like a man against a pre schooler. So I saw him in high school and followed him for years a cinn and in the pro's.

I have always said that Big O was the best all around player I ever saw, and I saw every game the Larry Bird played when he was in college in my home town of Terre haute.

[Calabis]

So I guess we should take Kobe off the top 10 since he played with Shaq?

And take away almost every player today's accomplishments, since they played in an era that was adjusted for stat padding, right?

Also.... we should take into consideration that some players didn't play with the 3pointer.

:applause:

I find it comical how these morons tear down other era's, because of pace, yet they go leaps and bounds to defend the era that made offense easier than ever....:roll:

Kobe Bryant has avg 19 FGA for his career Robertson 18 FGA...Kobe 25.3 PPG, Robertson 25.7 PPG(How is Kobe avg more shots at a slower Pace????)

Also laughing at people talking about his 1 triple double season, yet they ignore, that this mf'er avg'd a triple-double over his first 5 seasons..yup 400+ games, averaging 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists.

Overrated my ass...underrated by young morons.

[jlauber]

:applause:

I find it comical how these morons tear down other era's, because of pace, yet they go leaps and bounds to defend the era that made offense easier than ever....:roll:

Kobe Bryant has avg 19 FGA for his career Robertson 18 FGA...Kobe 25.3 PPG, Robertson 25.7 PPG(How is Kobe avg more shots at a slower Pace????)

Also laughing at people talking about his 1 triple double season, yet they ignore, that this mf'er avg'd a triple-double over his first 5 seasons..yup 400+ games, averaging 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 10.6 assists.

Overrated my ass...underrated by young morons.


Excellent post. I mentioned previously, but Oscar's HIGHEST FGA season was at 22.9 FGA per game. Kobe, AI, and MJ had seasons of 27-28 in about 40 mpg. And Baylor and Barry had similar seasons IN the Oscar-era (not to mention Chamberlain, who could get his shot against any defense at any time.) Does anyone honestly believe that a 6-5 (6-6 in shoes), 225 lb. PG would not be capable of 27 FGAs (or more) had he been so inclined? Not only that, but Oscar was outshooting the league averaged by HUGE margins (in '63 he shot .518 to a league average of .441.) So I have no doubt that a prime Oscar would be easily scoring 30+ in THIS era.

And, as I also pointed out...assists were MUCH more difficult to come by in Oscar's era. Despite the supposed higher "pace" of play, teams in Robertson's era averaged LESS apg, than those of even LAST season. So, if Oscar could get 11.5 apg in seasons back in HIS era, the assumption has to be that he would be doing even BETTER in THIS era. I see no reason why Oscar couldn't score 30+ ppg on 26 or so FGAs per game, and STILL get 10+ apg at the same time.

The only area in which Oscar might not reach double-digits, would be in rebounding. In his best season, at 12.5 rpg, it would have been at around 9 rpg in the current NBA.

30-8-10 on .525 shooting (and .850 FT shooting) would be attainable...especially in today's "perimeter oriented" league.

In any case, here was Oscar, averaging a TRIPLE-DOUBLE for FIVE consecutive seasons, and yet no one else, other than Magic in '82 (just a few assists and rebounds away), has come remotely close to duplicating it for ONE season.

BTW, it would interesting to find out how many 40-10-10 games Oscar had in his career, much less 30-10-10. I suspect that there were more than handful.

[gengiskhan]

Why didn't Oscar win a single title before Kareem?
Why did he only have 1 winning record?

http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/6/6c/Oscar-can.jpg

damb a5s

atleast NBA rules were against 6'5" oscar from winning it all without Big Man.

stupid fakk, ever thought why Kobe failed to win single title without big man on his side with all the rules favoring him & are perimeter friendly?

or

How did kobe managed to loose 2004 & 2008 NBA finals with dominant big man on his side with all the rules favoring Kobe?

grow up kobe'tard.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Of course, when Oscar joined the Bucks, he took a 56-26 team that had been blown out by the Knicks in the playoffs in '70, to a 66-16 record, and then a dominating title. After that he was a major reason why Milwaukee went 63-19, 60-22, and then 59-23 (and another trip to the Finals.) What happened AFTER he retired? The Bucks plummetted to a 38-44 record, and then traded Kareem off to the Lakers, where he routinely led loaded rosters to early playoff exits...in the weakest five seasons in NBA history ('75 thru '79.)

56-26 is a pretty damn good team for a player to join. Of course, Kareem and Bob Dandridge were rookies on the 56-26 team as well, so the team was likely going to improve regardless.

And again you ignore that Kareem went from missing just 1 game on the '74 team to 17 on the '75 team. What happened in those 17 games without Kareem? Milwaukee went 3-14. And once again, you forget about Lucius Allen. A 18/4/5/50 FG% player on the the '74 team in 72 games, but he only played 10 games in 1975.

And yeah...Kareem's Lakers sure were loaded in the 70's. :roll:

The '75 Lakers went 30-52 before acquiring Kareem, the '78 Lakers were 8-12 without him(8-13 counting a game he left early). Yeah, those sure are loaded teams.


Excellent post. I mentioned previously, but Oscar's HIGHEST FGA season was at 22.9 FGA per game. Kobe, AI, and MJ had seasons of 27-28 in about 40 mpg. And Baylor and Barry had similar seasons IN the Oscar-era (not to mention Chamberlain, who could get his shot against any defense at any time.) Does anyone honestly believe that a 6-5 (6-6 in shoes), 225 lb. PG would not be capable of 27 FGAs (or more) had he been so inclined? Not only that, but Oscar was outshooting the league averaged by HUGE margins (in '63 he shot .518 to a league average of .441.) So I have no doubt that a prime Oscar would be easily scoring 30+ in THIS era.

And, as I also pointed out...assists were MUCH more difficult to come by in Oscar's era. Despite the supposed higher "pace" of play, teams in Robertson's era averaged LESS apg, than those of even LAST season. So, if Oscar could get 11.5 apg in seasons back in HIS era, the assumption has to be that he would be doing even BETTER in THIS era. I see no reason why Oscar couldn't score 30+ ppg on 26 or so FGAs per game, and STILL get 10+ apg at the same time.

The only area in which Oscar might not reach double-digits, would be in rebounding. In his best season, at 12.5 rpg, it would have been at around 9 rpg in the current NBA.

30-8-10 on .525 shooting (and .850 FT shooting) would be attainable...especially in today's "perimeter oriented" league.

In any case, here was Oscar, averaging a TRIPLE-DOUBLE for FIVE consecutive seasons, and yet no one else, other than Magic in '82 (just a few assists and rebounds away), has come remotely close to duplicating it for ONE season.

BTW, it would interesting to find out how many 40-10-10 games Oscar had in his career, much less 30-10-10. I suspect that there were more than handful.

30-8-10, 53 FG% in today's game? :facepalm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1423