Jordan's statistics vs. #1 ranked defenses in playoffs

[Fatal9]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.

[cotdt]

Excellent post. Jordan may be the GOAT but he's still human. He's NOT head and shoulders above today's "Big 3" like nostalgic fans like to think.

[unbreakable]

Solid post.

[CroqueMort]

I'm waiting for a groupie to do a copy and paste.

[Da_Realist]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.

I'm only doing this cause I know you're a Kobe fan.

edit: Never mind. I just scanned a few topics on the first page and realized Kobe's probably been taking a beating so your post may be somewhat deserved. Carry on...

[KobeRules24]

great post fatal, you're doing your homework man.jordan only faced 1 great defense in the finals and pippen bailed him out vs the sonics

[Fatal9]

great post fatal, you're doing your homework man.jordan only faced 1 great defense in the finals and pippen bailed him out vs the sonics
Nah, Pippen had an off series vs. the Sonics. The bailout came against arguably the toughest series during the championship years against the '93 Knicks, who actually went up 2-0 on the Bulls. Pippen was incredible all series and in the 4th quarter of the elimination game, made a series clinching three pointer, Jordan was I think 0-7 in the fourth quarter in that game too!

[juju151111]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.
MJ didn't face number #1 defense until 93?? What did he do in his first 8 years??:wtf: You failed to post MJ stats against the 92 knicks because in 92 he didn't have a risk injury right so you posted 93 instead good job.

[Showtime]

Apparently the OP forgot a few things:

1. I doubt he has any idea how physical some of those games were. I doubt the top perimeter players today would be able to handle some of those games and shoot a better %.

2. I also doubt the OP has ever bothered to see who the best player was. For example, in that sonics finals, EVERYBODY shoot poorly. MJ was the best player on the court.

3. The OP didn't list all his games against top defensive teams.

[KobeRules24]

Nah, Pippen had an off series vs. the Sonics. The bailout came against arguably the toughest series during the championship years against the '93 Knicks, who actually went up 2-0 on the Bulls. Pippen was incredible all series and in the 4th quarter of the elimination game, made a series clinching three pointer, Jordan was I think 0-7 in the fourth quarter in that game too!

didnt know that :eek:

[Duncan21formvp]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.


vs. Boston, 1986: 44 pts/6 reb/6 ast/51% FG

Boston was the #1 defense and a top 5 team ever.

[andgar923]

Yeah.... this definitely proves it.

Kobe is better than MJ.

[juju151111]

Nah, Pippen had an off series vs. the Sonics. The bailout came against arguably the toughest series during the championship years against the '93 Knicks, who actually went up 2-0 on the Bulls. Pippen was incredible all series and in the 4th quarter of the elimination game, made a series clinching three pointer, Jordan was I think 0-7 in the fourth quarter in that game too!
Where was pippen in 90,92,96,97,98????? oh yea shooting bad. oh god MJ had a bad series after deciding to play with a injury that keep players out for months. You know wat *** this

[CroqueMort]

35% Jordan, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe etc... are still the craziest players on the court.

[Fatal9]

1. I doubt he has any idea how physical some of those games were. I doubt the top perimeter players today would be able to handle some of those games and shoot a better %.
Yup. Perimeter players today never played back when handchecking was legal, right? Kobe didn't have a 30/7/6 season with it legal, right? Or average 32/7/6/2 on 50% against the #1 defense in the league ('01 Spurs), right?

Enough of this bullsh*t argument.

[NBASTATMAN]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.



kobe in 04 had two playoff series under 39 percent.. Houston and Pistons. KOBE PLAYED WITH KARL MALONE, PAYTON, AND SHAQ... LOL

Kobe shot 37 percent in 2000 finals , 41 PERCENT IN 2001 FINALS, 40 PERCENT IN 08 FINALS... In every one of these finals he played with a player who shot over 50 percent... Gasol and Odom both shot over 50 percent in last years finals...


PIPPEN'S SHOOTING IN THE PLAYOFFS ARE AS FOLLOW

.39 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1996
.417 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1997
.415 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1998

SHAQ SHOT OVER 50 PERCENT IN ANY OF THOSE SERIES KOBE WAS FIRING UP BLANKS.. LOL

[CroqueMort]

Damn I Missed The Twin Towers !!!

[Showtime]

Yup. Perimeter players today never played back when handchecking was legal, right? Kobe didn't have a 30/7/6 season with it legal, right? Or average 32/7/6/2 on 50% against the #1 defense in the league ('01 Spurs), right?

Enough of this bullsh*t argument.
Did I say handchecking? No dumbass, I said physical contact. Handchecking was just one aspect of that. And no, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, etc NEVER faced as physical of a series as those Knicks v Bulls series. Players today get EJECTED if they pulled some of the stuff in those matchups.

[NBASTATMAN]

great post fatal, you're doing your homework man.jordan only faced 1 great defense in the finals and pippen bailed him out vs the sonics


WOW .. You guys call 39 percent shooting in the playoffs from PIPPEN bailing MJ out.. LOL

[DonDadda59]

kobe in 04 had two playoff series under 39 percent.. Houston and Pistons. KOBE PLAYED WITH KARL MALONE, PAYTON, AND SHAQ... LOL

Kobe shot 37 percent in 2000 finals , 41 PERCENT IN 2001 FINALS, 40 PERCENT IN 08 FINALS... In every one of these finals he played with a player who shot over 50 percent... Gasol and Odom both shot over 50 percent in last years finals...


PIPPEN'S SHOOTING IN THE PLAYOFFS ARE AS FOLLOW

.39 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1996
.417 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1997
.415 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1998

SHAQ SHOT OVER 50 PERCENT IN ANY OF THOSE SERIES KOBE WAS FIRING UP BLANKS.. LOL

Game. Set. Match

Nice touch on your avy Fatal, Pippen's your new favorite player this week?

[daily]

this has one gigantic hole in it... alot of years the Bulls were the number one ranked defense or one of the top ranked defenses in the league that's why jordan faced the top defense so few times, because he was on the top defense.

1991 number 1
1992 number 2
1996 number 1
1997 number 2
1998 number 2

[Fatal9]

What happened to Jordan's wrist in the Suns series? :oldlol:

[andgar923]

Yup. Perimeter players today never played back when handchecking was legal, right? Kobe didn't have a 30/7/6 season with it legal, right? Or average 32/7/6/2 on 50% against the #1 defense in the league ('01 Spurs), right?

Enough of this bullsh*t argument.

Do you seriously wanna compare the physical defense that MJ faced as opposed to Kobe's?

And do you seriously want to compare an MJ led team to a Shaq led team and all of the pressure Shaq takes away?

Oh.... and for the record, the defense was washed up by the time Kobe came into the league, that's a FACT.

Go back and read the rule changes.

The league was starting to crack down on handchecking and other physical physical play by the time Kobe came into the league. And it only got worse and worse.

And another tidbit the poster forgot to mention...........

THE BULLS WON

[NBASTATMAN]

didnt know that :eek:


I will write something you probably don't know.. Kobe went 1-10 in the fourth quarter in game 1 of 2007 playoffs vs the suns...

In the second game he sat the bench...

in the third game he went 3-7 in the fourth quarter.. His best..

In the 5th and deciding game kobe shot 3-13 vs that great SUNS defense..

Kobe also shot under 35 percent in last years finals after the first quarter... LOL

KOBE WAS FIRST QUARTER CLUTCH LAST YEAR...

[NBASTATMAN]

What happened to Jordan's wrist in the Suns series? :oldlol:

BAD defenses help people get better fast.. lol

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Its official...MJ was not perfect.
At times, he was downright horrific. In one playoff game, he shot 18% from the field. In numerous playoff games, he shot well below 40%.

and, once again, those stats don't tell the whole story. Just like Kobe's shooting % doesn't tell the whole story.

[NBASTATMAN]

Game. Set. Match

Nice touch on your avy Fatal, Pippen's your new favorite player this week?


this is GINGEREFFIC.. If you know what I mean...

[NBASTATMAN]

Its official...MJ was not perfect.
At times, he was downright horrific. In one playoff game, he shot 18% from the field. In numerous playoff games, he shot well below 40%.

and, once again, those stats don't tell the whole story. Just like Kobe's shooting % doesn't tell the whole story.


I don't think anyone would write that MJ was perfect.. As for the stats they tell a good story.. Mj was pretty much off in those series.. But he had 8 assists vs that KNICKS defense.... And fatal only included his worse stats.. LOL...

[KobeRules24]

I will write something you probably don't know.. Kobe went 1-10 in the fourth quarter in game 1 of 2007 playoffs vs the suns...

In the second game he sat the bench...

in the third game he went 3-7 in the fourth quarter.. His best..

In the 5th and deciding game kobe shot 3-13 vs that great SUNS defense..

Kobe also shot under 35 percent in last years finals after the first quarter... LOL

KOBE WAS FIRST QUARTER CLUTCH LAST YEAR...

:sleeping tell me how many times jordan faced a top defense in the finals? kobe faced the 2004 pistons (#2 rated defense, 4 time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace), 2008 Celtics (#1 rated defense, Defensive Player of the year Kevin Garnett), 2009 Magic (#1 rated defense, Defensive Player of the year Dwight Howard) jordan faced better defense in the finals right? lmao @ these kids

[chitownsfinest]

Since your fa**it ass decided to go there, well.....
Kobe against top 5 defenses (1999-present) 26.6
Jordan against top 5 defenses 32.5
Too lazy to post efficiency and other numbers, but it will destroy your argument even more.
Go crawl back up your hole.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yup. Perimeter players today never played back when handchecking was legal, right? Kobe didn't have a 30/7/6 season with it legal, right? Or average 32/7/6/2 on 50% against the #1 defense in the league ('01 Spurs), right?

Enough of this bullsh*t argument.


That was a SPURS team that lost its starting shooting guard before the lakers series.. So kobe went vs their bench player... DANIELS.LOL

[oh the horror]

Yeah.... this definitely proves it.

Kobe is better than MJ.


See, this is where we fu*k up. He wasnt saying that at all.


Hes trying to relay the message that before anyone wants to throw around stats to deminish a player's greatness, just to remember that even the "GOAT" had horrible statistics against elite teams, and or defensive squads...So its something to note, in THAT regard alone.

[chitownsfinest]

this has one gigantic hole in it... alot of years the Bulls were the number one ranked defense or one of the top ranked defenses in the league that's why jordan faced the top defense so few times, because he was on the top defense.

1991 number 1
1992 number 2
1996 number 1
1997 number 2
1998 number 2
More exposure

[D-Rose]

kobe in 04 had two playoff series under 39 percent.. Houston and Pistons. KOBE PLAYED WITH KARL MALONE, PAYTON, AND SHAQ... LOL

Kobe shot 37 percent in 2000 finals , 41 PERCENT IN 2001 FINALS, 40 PERCENT IN 08 FINALS... In every one of these finals he played with a player who shot over 50 percent... Gasol and Odom both shot over 50 percent in last years finals...


PIPPEN'S SHOOTING IN THE PLAYOFFS ARE AS FOLLOW

.39 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1996
.417 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1997
.415 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1998

SHAQ SHOT OVER 50 PERCENT IN ANY OF THOSE SERIES KOBE WAS FIRING UP BLANKS.. LOL

:oldlol: Comparing the FG% of a perimeter player to 3 post players.:applause: :hammerhead:

[DonDadda59]

damn, let Fatal breathe a bit. Didn't have to smother him right away :oldlol:

And the Lakers WON the championship, one would think that you would finally feel comfortable coming out of the closet all decked out in purple and gold, yet here you are still making passive-aggressive attacks on Jordan while trying (and failing as usual) to prop up Kobe while hiding behind a Scottie Pippen avy? :wtf:

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol: Comparing the FG% of a perimeter player to 3 post players.:applause: :hammerhead:

Fair Enough, Lamar Odom vs the #1 rated defense of the Magic:

54.2% FG, 50% from 3.

[andgar923]

See, this is where we fu*k up. He wasnt saying that at all.


Hes trying to relay the message that before anyone wants to throw around stats to deminish a player's greatness, just to remember that even the "GOAT" had horrible statistics against elite teams, and or defensive squads...So its something to note, in THAT regard alone.

Point taken.

I didn't really give it much thought tho, just felt like being a smart a$$.

[juju151111]

MJ vs the same knick team in 92 without a sprained wrist. 31.4ppg,48%,

[Indian guy]

Seattle was actually the #2 ranked defense in 95-96. If you're going to count them, then you should also include MJ's numbers against the '88 Pistons, '90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers. All 4 were #2 ranked defensive teams. But since MJ played well in those series', I guess it wouldn't help your agenda? Sad.

I also don't make much of the '96 Finals and the '97 ECF. That was an old(33 & 34), tired and well past-his-prime MJ. Not a good sign if that's how far down the road haters have to go to look for some cracks in MJ's peerless resume. The '93 series against the Knicks I do put some stock in though. Great all around numbers, but poor efficiency. Only poor shooting series of his prime(age 25-30), and he still won. I'll take it.

[D-Rose]

Fair Enough, Lamar Odom vs the #1 rated defense of the Magic:

52.4% FG, 51.4% from 3.
His 3 point shooting was great but I'm willing to bet most of his shots came in the paint. He posted up Rashard many times. Also Game 2 when he had a great 4th quarter it was in the paint. He played PF not SF.

[NBASTATMAN]

:oldlol: Comparing the FG% of a perimeter player to 3 post players.:applause: :hammerhead:


DUH SOMEONE POSTED A COMMENT ABOUT PIPPEN BAILING MJ OUT..So I went with PIPPENS' GREAT FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE.. LOL

[Fatal9]

Seattle was actually the #2 ranked defense in 95-96.
Bulls were #1 that year and weren't in any of those other years you mentioned.

[DonDadda59]

His 3 point shooting was great but I'm willing to bet most of his shots came in the paint. He posted up Rashard many times. Also Game 2 when he had a great 4th quarter it was in the paint. He played PF not SF.

Doesn't matter how he got his points, fact is he shot 54% from the field playing from the wing against the #1 ranked defense. And if Rashard was on him, he was playing SF. Hedo was at the 4 playing Pau to start games until Bynum inevitably got into foul trouble, then the Lakers had to mix and match their lineup.

[Butters]

"and despite being a big fan of his"

You say this everytime you try to put down MJ.

I don't think anyone on this site thinks you are really a MJ fan.

You are a Kobe fan,who uses Pippen to try and lower MJ.

Pippen is starting to be the most overrated player on here,despite being a big fan of his,its getting old.
^
Hey when i say that do people beleive me?:confusedshrug: :oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

[QUOTE=Fatal9] and despite being a big fan of his QUOTE]

You say this everytime you try to put down MJ.

I don't think anyone on this site thinks you are really a MJ fan.

You are a Kobe fan,who uses Pippen to try and lower MJ.

Pippen is starting to be the most overrated player on here,despite being a big fan of his,its getting old.
^
Hey when i say that do people beleive me?:confusedshrug: :oldlol:
Yes

[Duncan21formvp]

:sleeping tell me how many times jordan faced a top defense in the finals? kobe faced the 2004 pistons (#2 rated defense, 4 time defensive player of the year Ben Wallace), 2008 Celtics (#1 rated defense, Defensive Player of the year Kevin Garnett), 2009 Magic (#1 rated defense, Defensive Player of the year Dwight Howard) jordan faced better defense in the finals right? lmao @ these kids

Problem is that Kobe faced teams anchored by big men. None of those teams had DPOY defenders or all NBA defenders in the backcourt or on the wing. Kobe's bad shot selection made those guys look like all world defenders.

The guys MJ went against had those All NBA Defenders. Gerald Wilkins, Majerle,Lenard, Dennis Johnson, Payton to name a few.

And no Prince is not a good defender, Lebron and Wade abused that fool once Wallace wasn't around.

[D-Rose]

Doesn't matter how he got his points, fact is he shot 54% from the field playing from the wing against the #1 ranked defense. And if Rashard was on him, he was playing SF. Hedo was at the 4 playing Pau to start games until Bynum inevitably got into foul trouble, then the Lakers had to mix and match their lineup.
:wtf:

Sorry moron.

To begin games it was Howard on Bynum, Lewis on Pau and Hedo on Ariza. When Odom comes in it's Lewis on Odom. Everyone knows this.

SVG answered a specific question as to why he doesn't let Hedo defend the 4 in this series. He said Rashard is the better post defender.

Just because Shard is a SF on offense doesnt mean he is on defense:oldlol: . Odom posted him up a lot. He played in the paint or made cuts to the basket. He shot some 3s and jumpers but not in the majority. Odom didn't play him from the perimeter much as you claim.

By your logic, Gasol is a SF too since he defended a SF in Lewis :oldlol: :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

:wtf:

Sorry moron.

To begin games it was Howard on Bynum, Lewis on Pau and Hedo on Ariza. When Odom comes in it's Lewis on Odom. Everyone knows this.

SVG answered a specific question as to why he doesn't let Hedo defend the 4 in this series. He said Rashard is the better post defender.

Just because Shard is a SF on offense doesnt mean he is on defense:oldlol: . Odom posted him up a lot. He played in the paint or made cuts to the basket. He shot some 3s and jumpers but not in the majority. Odom didn't play him from the perimeter much as you claim.

By your logic, Gasol is a SF too since he defended a SF in Lewis :oldlol: :oldlol:


Like I said, once Bynum got into foul trouble the Lakers were forced to mix and match their lineups, as did the Magic. Hedo ran the offense in several games, is he a PG? Just because Odom from time to time played the 4, doesn't necesarily make him a PF. He's been classified as a 3 virtually his whole career. He was clearly playing from the perimeter, if he scored inside it was because of penetration. Kobe had WAY more touches in the post than Lamar did, especially when the shorter Lee was on him. So let's not make beleive Odom shot 54% because he was doing what Pau was doing :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

Nah, Pippen had an off series vs. the Sonics.

Yeah, Pippen was injured late that season and was never the same until 1996-97 rolled around. He averaged less than 15 ppg during the last two months of 96' after averaging 21+ despite playing with MJ and MJ leading the league in scoring/shots. There was talk of him being a MVP contender during the first half of the season and even with his injury he still finished 5th in the vote, albeit very close to 4th place Hakeem. No one would beat MJ that year but if he did not get hurt he easily could have gotten to at least 2nd in MVP voting since Penny was not that far ahead of him.


Where was pippen in 90,92,96,97,98?????

When healthy Pippen consistently raised his game in the playoffs (even at age 36!):

1990: 19/7/6 (17/7/5 during the regular season)
1991: 22/9/6 (18/7/6)
1992: 20/9/7 (21/8/7)
1993: 20/7/6 (19/8/6)
1994: 23/8/5 (22/9/6)
1995: 18/9/6 (20/7/5 in the regular season with MJ, 22/9/5 without him)

How about the NBA finals during these years?

1991: 21/9/7/2 steals. He came within 3 assists of a triple double in Game 5. He had three double doubles.
1992: 21/8/8/2. He was one rebound shy of a triple double in Game 1, two rebounds short in Game 2, and one assist shy in Game 5.
1993: 21/9/8/2. He had a triple double in Game 2 and was one assist from another one in Game 3. Had had three double doubles in addition to his triple double.

Pippen led the team in assists in the 1992 and 1993 NBA finals and actually led the team in rebounding in the 1991 and 1992 finals. Grant, unlike Pippen, performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season and this combined with Pippen stepping up resulted in Pippen outrebounding him twice (Pippen would also lead the team in rebounding in the 94' playoffs, in addition to leading the team in points, assists, and steals.). So in 1993 a 6'7” SF was leading the team in assists and rebounding in the finals while also contributing 21 ppg!

What a scrub, huh? :oldlol:

On top of all this he played world class defense.

:roll: @ fake Bulls fans AKA MJ stans harping on the second three peat when Pippen was hurt in the playoffs every year. (the funniest is 1997. MJ stans quote Pippen averaging 19.2 over the playoffs but they never mention that Pippen got hurt in game 5, the closeout game, of the ECF. He played only 7 minutes and scored only 2 points in that game. Take that game out and he averaged 20.2 over the other 18 games, even with an injured foot for several games) Even then he averaged solid offensive numbers and played great defense.


Comparing the FG% of a perimeter player to 3 post players.

:oldlol: Horace Grant was the best player on the 90's Bulls then! :bowdown:

[D-Rose]

Like I said, once Bynum got into foul trouble the Lakers were forced to mix and match their lineups, as did the Magic. Hedo ran the offense in several games, is he a PG? Just because Odom from time to time played the 4, doesn't necesarily make him a PF. He's been classified as a 3 virtually his whole career. He was clearly playing from the perimeter, if he scored inside it was because of penetration. Kobe had WAY more touches in the post than Lamar did, especially when the shorter Lee was on him. So let's not make beleive Odom shot 54% because he was doing what Pau was doing :rolleyes:
:oldlol:

Lakers dumped the ball into Odom much more this series than I've seen in times before. He had a clear advantage over Rashard in the post and the Lakers realized that.

He was playing a more paint oriented game.

More shots in the paint = higher FG%.

Duh.

[NBASTATMAN]

Problem is that Kobe faced teams anchored by big men. None of those teams had DPOY defenders or all NBA defenders in the backcourt or on the wing. Kobe's bad shot selection made those guys look like all world defenders.

The guys MJ went against had those All NBA Defenders. Gerald Wilkins, Majerle,Lenard, Dennis Johnson, Payton to name a few.

And no Prince is not a good defender, Lebron and Wade abused that fool once Wallace wasn't around.


WADE AND LEBRON abused Prince even when WALLACE WAS AROUND.. LOL...
Phil Jackson stated Kobe just did not know how to attack prince.. Wade attacked him and made him look slow... LOL

[NBASTATMAN]

Like I said, once Bynum got into foul trouble the Lakers were forced to mix and match their lineups, as did the Magic. Hedo ran the offense in several games, is he a PG? Just because Odom from time to time played the 4, doesn't necesarily make him a PF. He's been classified as a 3 virtually his whole career. He was clearly playing from the perimeter, if he scored inside it was because of penetration. Kobe had WAY more touches in the post than Lamar did, especially when the shorter Lee was on him. So let's not make beleive Odom shot 54% because he was doing what Pau was doing :rolleyes:


Odom played at a high level.. But the stans won't give him credit for playing well. At least the true laker fans know what Lamar is worth.. Hope he leaves the lakers.. Maybe the laker fans will see what 15 and 10 rebounds plus a guy who relieves all type of ball handling pressure does for a team..

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at the MJ groupies coming in yet again, and turning this thread in to a Kobe one. The thread was to show MJ wasn't some sort of a miracle worker like certain posters would lead you to believe.



:roll: @ fake Bulls fans AKA MJ stans harping on the second three peat when Pippen was hurt in the playoffs every year. (the funniest is 1997. MJ stans quote Pippen averaging 19.2 over the playoffs but they never mention that Pippen got hurt in game 5, the closeout game, of the ECF. He played only 7 minutes and scored only 2 points in that game. Take that game out and he averaged 20.2 over the other 18 games, even with an injured foot for several games) Even then he averaged solid offensive numbers and played great defense.
Who can forget Indian_Guy? :oldlol: at him saying the Hugh Hollins call was a good/legit one, while claiming to be a hardcore Bulls fan. Ever seen an alleged fan get exposed that bad? :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Yeah, Pippen was injured late that season and was never the same until 1996-97 rolled around. He averaged less than 15 ppg during the last two months of 96' after averaging 21+ despite playing with MJ and MJ leading the league in scoring/shots. There was talk of him being a MVP contender during the first half of the season and even with his injury he still finished 5th in the vote, albeit very close to 4th place Hakeem. No one would beat MJ that year but if he did not get hurt he easily could have gotten to at least 2nd in MVP voting since Penny was not that far ahead of him.



When healthy Pippen consistently raised his game in the playoffs (even at age 36!):

1990: 19/7/6 (17/7/5 during the regular season)
1991: 22/9/6 (18/7/6)
1992: 20/9/7 (21/8/7)
1993: 20/7/6 (19/8/6)
1994: 23/8/5 (22/9/6)
1995: 18/9/6 (20/7/5 in the regular season with MJ, 22/9/5 without him)

How about the NBA finals during these years?

1991: 21/9/7/2 steals. He came within 3 assists of a triple double in Game 5. He had three double doubles.
1992: 21/8/8/2. He was one rebound shy of a triple double in Game 1, two rebounds short in Game 2, and one assist shy in Game 5.
1993: 21/9/8/2. He had a triple double in Game 2 and was one assist from another one in Game 3. Had had three double doubles in addition to his triple double.

Pippen led the team in assists in the 1992 and 1993 NBA finals and actually led the team in rebounding in the 1991 and 1992 finals. Grant, unlike Pippen, performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season and this combined with Pippen stepping up resulted in Pippen outrebounding him twice (Pippen would also lead the team in rebounding in the 94' playoffs, in addition to leading the team in points, assists, and steals.). So in 1993 a 6'7

[Jacks3]

The guy who leads in win shares is for the season. Gasol did that this year and thus was the best on LA.
So Kobe was the best player in the playoffs for the Lakers in 00-01. After all, he led in win shares. :oldlol:

[KenneBell]

The guy who leads in win shares is for the season. Gasol did that this year and thus was the best on LA.
So Kobe was the best on the Lakers in the '01 playoffs?

[D-Rose]

The guy who leads in win shares is for the season. Gasol did that this year and thus was the best on LA.
:oldlol:

[catch24]

The guy who leads in win shares is for the season. Gasol did that this year and thus was the best on LA.

http://www.toonjokes.com/data/media/9/30.jpg

[juju151111]

Yeah, Pippen was injured late that season and was never the same until 1996-97 rolled around. He averaged less than 15 ppg during the last two months of 96' after averaging 21+ despite playing with MJ and MJ leading the league in scoring/shots. There was talk of him being a MVP contender during the first half of the season and even with his injury he still finished 5th in the vote, albeit very close to 4th place Hakeem. No one would beat MJ that year but if he did not get hurt he easily could have gotten to at least 2nd in MVP voting since Penny was not that far ahead of him.



When healthy Pippen consistently raised his game in the playoffs (even at age 36!):

1990: 19/7/6 (17/7/5 during the regular season)
1991: 22/9/6 (18/7/6)
1992: 20/9/7 (21/8/7)
1993: 20/7/6 (19/8/6)
1994: 23/8/5 (22/9/6)
1995: 18/9/6 (20/7/5 in the regular season with MJ, 22/9/5 without him)

How about the NBA finals during these years?

1991: 21/9/7/2 steals. He came within 3 assists of a triple double in Game 5. He had three double doubles.
1992: 21/8/8/2. He was one rebound shy of a triple double in Game 1, two rebounds short in Game 2, and one assist shy in Game 5.
1993: 21/9/8/2. He had a triple double in Game 2 and was one assist from another one in Game 3. Had had three double doubles in addition to his triple double.

Pippen led the team in assists in the 1992 and 1993 NBA finals and actually led the team in rebounding in the 1991 and 1992 finals. Grant, unlike Pippen, performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season and this combined with Pippen stepping up resulted in Pippen outrebounding him twice (Pippen would also lead the team in rebounding in the 94' playoffs, in addition to leading the team in points, assists, and steals.). So in 1993 a 6'7” SF was leading the team in assists and rebounding in the finals while also contributing 21 ppg!

What a scrub, huh? :oldlol:

On top of all this he played world class defense.

:roll: @ fake Bulls fans AKA MJ stans harping on the second three peat when Pippen was hurt in the playoffs every year. (the funniest is 1997. MJ stans quote Pippen averaging 19.2 over the playoffs but they never mention that Pippen got hurt in game 5, the closeout game, of the ECF. He played only 7 minutes and scored only 2 points in that game. Take that game out and he averaged 20.2 over the other 18 games, even with an injured foot for several games) Even then he averaged solid offensive numbers and played great defense.



:oldlol: Horace Grant was the best player on the 90's Bulls then! :bowdown:
http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php and prove Bosh was better then him in 09.Prove duncan was in 09.

[Disaprine]

The guy who leads in win shares is for the season. Gasol did that this year and thus was the best on LA.
http://www.erichufschmid.net/Dumb-down/super-retard.JPG

[Duncan21formvp]

So Kobe was the best on the Lakers in the '01 playoffs?

Not when the other leads in PER and scoring and shoots a better fg%.

[catch24]

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Dumb-down/super-retard.JPG

ROFLLLL

[D-Rose]

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php and prove Bosh was better then him in 09.Prove duncan was in 09.
So you fight overall stats with one boxscore :oldlol:

[KenneBell]

Not when the other leads in PER and scoring and shoots a better fg%.
Well Kobe led Gasol in PER. What now?

And LMAO comparing post vs perimeter players' FG%.

[catch24]

Well Kobe led Gasol in PER. What now?

and in scoring :oldlol:

[juju151111]

So you fight overall stats with one boxscore :oldlol:
Game 7 was thrown away. This could of been the 7th chip, but when you don't have Shaq or Gasol thowing up 50% gmsd wat could you do?

[Duncan21formvp]

Well Kobe led Gasol in PER. What now?

Gasol shot better as well. So when you lead in win shares and have the higher fg% than you were the leader of the team.

[Jacks3]

:roll:

[KenneBell]

Gasol shot better as well. So when you lead in win shares and have the higher fg% than you were the leader of the team.
GTFO. Like I said, you kbasketball knowledge is tiny if you think perimeter players should shoot with the same efficiency from the field as post players who operate with in 10 feet of the basket 90% of the time.

I guess Gasol is better than Duncan because he had more win shares and shot a higher %.

What an ass.

[D-Rose]

Gasol shot better as well. So when you lead in win shares and have the higher fg% than you were the leader of the team.
Gasol shoots close to the basket....higher FG%

Kobe shoots jumpers...what do you think?

[NBASTATMAN]

Well Kobe led Gasol in PER. What now?

And LMAO comparing post vs perimeter players' FG%.


GASOL LED IN WIN SHARES AND DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES.. LOL

[catch24]

GASOL LED IN WIN SHARES AND DEFENSIVE WIN SHARES.. LOL

Rebounding and block shots. He did his job.

Alrighty juju?

[Duncan21formvp]

GTFO. Like I said, you kbasketball knowledge is tiny if you think perimeter players should shoot with the same efficiency from the field as post players who operate with in 10 feet of the basket 90% of the time.

I guess Gasol is better than Duncan because he had more win shares and shot a higher %.

What an ass.

Duncan has 3 finals MVP. With 1 finals mvp you are just lucky. Sort of like Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Cedric Maxwell. With 3 you are good. Right now Kobe is just in the lucky group. Kobe getting finals mvp over Gasol is like Maxwell getting it over Bird.

[Fatal9]

Can posters please stop talking about Kobe? He has nothing to do with this thread. No point in replying to obvious trolls either (duncanmvp for example).

Discuss MJ's horrible performances vs. the #1 ranked defenses. Just keep these in mind when a Jordan stan tries to tell you Jordan would take "steaming dumps" over the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics (who statistically are better than any team Jordan ever faced in the playoffs).

[daily]

Gasol shot better as well. So when you lead in win shares and have the higher fg% than you were the leader of the team.

During the playoffs Kobe had 4.8 Win Shares, Gasol 4.4
Kobe also lead the way in,
Points,
Minutes,
PER,
Assists,
Steals,
FT's Attempted, Made and Percentage from the line

Gasol led in FG%, Rebounds and Blocks

Nice try, thanks for playing but your "big book of agendas" is due back at the library

[Da_Realist]

this is GINGEREFFIC.. If you know what I mean...
:cheers:

[catch24]

During the playoffs Kobe had 4.8 Win Shares, Gasol 4.4
Kobe also lead the way in,
Points,
Minutes,
PER,
Assists,
Steals,
FT's Attempted, Made and Percentage from the line

Gasol led in FG%, Rebounds and Blocks

Nice try, thanks for playing but your "big book of agendas" is due back at the library

And there goes his agenda...right down the sh!tter

[Duncan21formvp]

During the playoffs Kobe had 4.8 Win Shares, Gasol 4.4
Kobe also lead the way in,
Points,
Minutes,
PER,
Assists,
Steals,
FT's Attempted, Made and Percentage from the line

Gasol led in FG%, Rebounds and Blocks

Nice try, thanks for playing but your "big book of agendas" is due back at the library

I never said Kobe wasn't close to Gasol. Gasol was just the leader of the team during the season. Gasol was the reason they beat each opponent due to his defense and shutting down the other team's big man.

Also Gasol averaged 18 ppg in the finals. Anytime someone averages over 18 ppg in the finals and shoot 60% they are the man.

[NBASTATMAN]

:cheers:


:cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

I never said Kobe wasn't close to Gasol. Gasol was just the leader of the team during the season. Gasol was the reason they beat each opponent due to his defense and shutting down the other team's big man.

Also Gasol averaged 18 ppg in the finals. Anytime someone averages over 18 ppg in the finals and shoot 60% they are the man.


YEA.. Gasol shut down DHOWARD... That is why they won the title... :bowdown:

[NBASTATMAN]

Rebounding and block shots. He did his job.

Alrighty juju?


HEY I AM NOT JU JU.. Catch are you BRAN?

[catch24]

HEY I AM NOT JU JU.. Catch are you BRAN?

no ujuj

[NBASTATMAN]

no ujuj


ok

[juju151111]

Rebounding and block shots. He did his job.

Alrighty juju?
wait wat:wtf: yep he did his job, but when you have nutgaggers around they say Gasol is thrash and didn't do noting.

[catch24]

wait wat:wtf: yep he did his job, but when you have nutgaggers around they say Gasol is thrash and didn't do noting.

Who's saying Gasol is trash? I'd like to know. Kobe is not the sole but MAJOR reason LA won a title. Not too difficult juju.

[KenneBell]

but when you have nutgaggers around they say Gasol is thrash and didn't do noting.
Besides the obvious trolls, who says this? Most 99% of Lakers fans know the Lakers wouldn't be in the position they are without Pau.

[catch24]

Besides the obvious trolls, who says this? Most 99% of Lakers fans know the Lakers wouldn't be in the position they are without Pau.

Sounds like an excuse for his woefully ignorant comments.

[nnn123]

Fatal, why don't you include ALL of his playoff performances against #1 rated defensive teams, not just the years that he was in his mid-30s? I mean I'm sure that's not biased at all, only looking at the bad series w/o including the good ones :rolleyes:

In his prime years, he only really had one really bad series against #1 defense (93 Knicks, as you mentioned) and it's funny how he was injured for the first couple of games of the series

[juju151111]

Sounds like an excuse for his woefully ignorant comments.
HI was just defending pau. WTH is ur problem.

[catch24]

HI was just defending pau. WTH is ur problem.

Defending Pau with whom?? Pretty sure everyone who's not an obvious gimmick account acknowledges his significance and importance to the team.

[juju151111]

Defending Pau with whom?? Pretty sure everyone who's not an obvious gimmick account acknowledges his significance and importance to the team.
Where did i quote you or anyone credible?? LOL you acting like you never respond to troll post to set them straight. GTFO

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol:

Lakers dumped the ball into Odom much more this series than I've seen in times before. He had a clear advantage over Rashard in the post and the Lakers realized that.

He was playing a more paint oriented game.

More shots in the paint = higher FG%.

Duh.

Lamar Odom's shot selection:

Game 1
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lamar_odom/game_by_game_stats.html

made: 3 layups/dunks, 1 5ft jumper, 1 19 ft jumper
missed: 3 3 pt attempts, 2 shots in the paint

Game 2
http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290607013

made: 1 layup/dunk, 2 8ft jumpers, 15 ft jumper, 2 20 ft jumpers, 1 23 ft jumper
missed: 1 3 pt

Game 3
(Incomplete Info from ESPN)

made: 1 layup/dunk
missed: 8ft jumper, 20 ft jumper


Game 4
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290611019

made: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 26 ft jumper
missed: layup/dunk, 10 ft jumper, 19 ft jumper, 2 26 ft jumper

Game 5
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290614019

made: 2 layup/dunks, 3 25 ft jumpers
missed: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 6 ft jumper, 2 14 ft jumper, 17 ft jumper

He shot 50% from the 3 and relied more on mid range jumpers. When he did score in the paint, it was on drives to the basket, only a handful of post ups. Pau and Kobe when Lee was on him were the 2 options on the block. Stop making excuses

[tontoz]

Can posters please stop talking about Kobe? He has nothing to do with this thread. No point in replying to obvious trolls either (duncanmvp for example).

Discuss MJ's horrible performances vs. the #1 ranked defenses. Just keep these in mind when a Jordan stan tries to tell you Jordan would take "steaming dumps" over the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics (who statistically are better than any team Jordan ever faced in the playoffs).

:roll: the Celtics got taken to 7 games by the Hawks.

[NBASTATMAN]

Lamar Odom's shot selection:

Game 1
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lamar_odom/game_by_game_stats.html

made: 3 layups/dunks, 1 5ft jumper, 1 19 ft jumper
missed: 3 3 pt attempts, 2 shots in the paint

Game 2
http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290607013

made: 1 layup/dunk, 2 8ft jumpers, 15 ft jumper, 2 20 ft jumpers, 1 23 ft jumper
missed: 1 3 pt

Game 3
(Incomplete Info from ESPN)

made: 1 layup/dunk
missed: 8ft jumper, 20 ft jumper


Game 4
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290611019

made: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 26 ft jumper
missed: layup/dunk, 10 ft jumper, 19 ft jumper, 2 26 ft jumper

Game 5
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290614019

made: 2 layup/dunks, 3 25 ft jumpers
missed: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 6 ft jumper, 2 14 ft jumper, 17 ft jumper

He shot 50% from the 3 and relied more on mid range jumpers. When he did score in the paint, it was on drives to the basket, only a handful of post ups. Stop making excuses



nice..

[D-Rose]

Lamar Odom's shot selection:

Game 1
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lamar_odom/game_by_game_stats.html

made: 3 layups/dunks, 1 5ft jumper, 1 19 ft jumper
missed: 3 3 pt attempts, 2 shots in the paint

Game 2
http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290607013

made: 1 layup/dunk, 2 8ft jumpers, 15 ft jumper, 2 20 ft jumpers, 1 23 ft jumper
missed: 1 3 pt

Game 3
(Incomplete Info from ESPN)

made: 1 layup/dunk
missed: 8ft jumper, 20 ft jumper


Game 4
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290611019

made: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 26 ft jumper
missed: layup/dunk, 10 ft jumper, 19 ft jumper, 2 26 ft jumper

Game 5
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290614019

made: 2 layup/dunks, 3 25 ft jumpers
missed: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 6 ft jumper, 2 14 ft jumper, 17 ft jumper

He shot 50% from the 3 and relied more on mid range jumpers. When he did score in the paint, it was on drives to the basket, only a handful of post ups. Pau and Kobe when Lee was on him were the 2 options on the block. Stop making excuses

Good research. It seemed he was playing more in the post than usual and in the paint as well, but I guess not.

The 3s must have helped his FG%, he was shooting lights out from there.

[tontoz]

Seattle was actually the #2 ranked defense in 95-96. If you're going to count them, then you should also include MJ's numbers against the '88 Pistons, '90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers. All 4 were #2 ranked defensive teams. But since MJ played well in those series', I guess it wouldn't help your agenda? Sad.

I also don't make much of the '96 Finals and the '97 ECF. That was an old(33 & 34), tired and well past-his-prime MJ. Not a good sign if that's how far down the road haters have to go to look for some cracks in MJ's peerless resume. The '93 series against the Knicks I do put some stock in though. Great all around numbers, but poor efficiency. Only poor shooting series of his prime(age 25-30), and he still won. I'll take it.

Fatal9's response to this post?






http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-Simon--Garfunkel-Sounds-of-Silence.jpg

[juju151111]

Lamar Odom's shot selection:

Game 1
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lamar_odom/game_by_game_stats.html

made: 3 layups/dunks, 1 5ft jumper, 1 19 ft jumper
missed: 3 3 pt attempts, 2 shots in the paint

Game 2
http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290607013

made: 1 layup/dunk, 2 8ft jumpers, 15 ft jumper, 2 20 ft jumpers, 1 23 ft jumper
missed: 1 3 pt

Game 3
(Incomplete Info from ESPN)

made: 1 layup/dunk
missed: 8ft jumper, 20 ft jumper


Game 4
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290611019

made: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 26 ft jumper
missed: layup/dunk, 10 ft jumper, 19 ft jumper, 2 26 ft jumper

Game 5
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=290614019

made: 2 layup/dunks, 3 25 ft jumpers
missed: 2 layup/dunk, 5 ft jumper, 6 ft jumper, 2 14 ft jumper, 17 ft jumper

He shot 50% from the 3 and relied more on mid range jumpers. When he did score in the paint, it was on drives to the basket, only a handful of post ups. Pau and Kobe when Lee was on him were the 2 options on the block. Stop making excuses
Good post

[Cangri]

Fatal9's response to this post?






http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-Simon--Garfunkel-Sounds-of-Silence.jpg
Yeah, I wanna see the hater's response to this.

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: the Celtics got taken to 7 games by the Hawks.


AND BY THE LEBRON'S.. Plus Lebron didn't have the greatest of series either...

[catch24]

Where did i quote you or anyone credible?? LOL you acting like you never respond to troll post to set them straight. GTFO

Are you retarded? Can you not read? I asked who you quoted other than gimmick accounts? I've responded and definitely let roundball know "what I really thought of him".

And quit telling everyone to "GTFO", what is that your defense mechanism?

[juju151111]

Are you retarded? Can you not read? I asked who you quoted other than gimmick accounts? I've responded and definitely let roundball know "what I really thought of him".

And quit telling everyone to "GTFO", what is that your defense mechanism?
WTH i was setting people straight. WTF

[catch24]

WTH i was setting people straight. WTF

Setting people straight on the obvious? Okay...

[daily]

Besides the obvious trolls, who says this? Most 99% of Lakers fans know the Lakers wouldn't be in the position they are without Pau.Exactly... Just ignore the guy, he's the same one who started this little gem the last time he decided to set people straight

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136349

[bruceblitz]

You guys just failed. This thread is a fail. Hand-picked garbage. I'm gonna post a comprehensive listing here shortly, and this listing will also expose fatal9's boyfriend Kobe "Overrated" Bryant.

[juju151111]

Exactly... Just ignore the guy, he's the same one who started this little gem

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136349
yea after Fatal started this thrash.

[D-Rose]

yea after Fatal started this thrash.
Yeah and 2nd best = 5th best :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Yeah and 2nd best = 5th best :oldlol:
I admit that was a mistake it was Opponents PPG they ranked 2nd.

[zabuza666]

You guys just failed. This thread is a fail. Hand-picked garbage. I'm gonna post a comprehensive listing here shortly, and this listing will also expose fatal9's boyfriend Kobe "Overrated" Bryant.

**** you fatal look what you've done

[Laker4Lyfe]

You guys just failed. This thread is a fail. Hand-picked garbage. I'm gonna cut & paste a bunch of crap that I have posted a million times already here shortly, and this listing nobody will read because Jordan retired almost 7 years ago and everyone other than me lives in the present not the past.
fixed

[Indian guy]

Fatal9's response to this post?

Who cares, really? The troll is on my IL and I have the misfortune of reading his posts only when someone quotes him.

The technicality of how MJ fared against the #1 ranked defense is bogus. He went up against numerous #2 defensive teams in his prime - '88-'90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers - and averaged great numbers against them on excellent efficiency. And mind you, despite their #2 ranking, 3 of these 4 teams were ABSOLUTELY the best defensive teams in the league that year. Yet MJ fared spectacularly against them. Which should tell you that his struggles in '96 and '97 were more age+fatigue related than anything to do with OMG!#1 defense shuts down MJ1!!!!. He was 33/34 by then and unbelievably tired come playoffs - as anybody who has actually seen these games will tell you. Great defensive teams will have their way against old, tired legs. The fact that he was still leading his team to championships at that age is a bigger testament to his greatness than anything. No other ALL-TIME great outside of Kareem(who hardly had to carry the load like MJ) was leading his team to rings from 33-35.

[Da_Realist]

Who cares, really? The troll is on my IL and I have the misfortune of reading his posts only when someone quotes him.

The technicality of how MJ fared against the #1 ranked defense is bogus. He went up against numerous #2 defensive teams in his prime - '88-'90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers - and averaged great numbers against them on excellent efficiency. And mind you, despite their #2 ranking, 3 of these 4 teams were ABSOLUTELY the best defensive teams in the league that year. Yet MJ fared spectacularly against them. Which should tell you that his struggles in '96 and '97 were more age+fatigue related than anything to do with OMG!#1 defense shuts down MJ1!!!!. He was 33/34 by then and unbelievably tired come playoffs - as anybody who has actually seen these games will tell you. Great defensive teams will have their way against old, tired legs. The fact that he was still leading his team to championships at that age is a bigger testament to his greatness than anything. No other ALL-TIME great outside of Kareem(who hardly had to carry the load like MJ) was leading his team to rings from 33-35.

You just ended this thread. :applause:

[juju151111]

Who cares, really? The troll is on my IL and I have the misfortune of reading his posts only when someone quotes him.

The technicality of how MJ fared against the #1 ranked defense is bogus. He went up against numerous #2 defensive teams in his prime - '88-'90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers - and averaged great numbers against them on excellent efficiency. And mind you, despite their #2 ranking, 3 of these 4 teams were ABSOLUTELY the best defensive teams in the league that year. Yet MJ fared spectacularly against them. Which should tell you that his struggles in '96 and '97 were more age+fatigue related than anything to do with OMG!#1 defense shuts down MJ1!!!!. He was 33/34 by then and unbelievably tired come playoffs - as anybody who has actually seen these games will tell you. Great defensive teams will have their way against old, tired legs. The fact that he was still leading his team to championships at that age is a bigger testament to his greatness than anything. No other ALL-TIME great outside of Kareem(who hardly had to carry the load like MJ) was leading his team to rings from 33-35.
Good post and MJ showed up in the clutch even when he was having bad games at age 33-36. You see alot of people play bad all throughout, but against the Jazz,bullets,Heat etc.. He comes out in the 4Q.

[chitownsfinest]

Who cares, really? The troll is on my IL and I have the misfortune of reading his posts only when someone quotes him.

The technicality of how MJ fared against the #1 ranked defense is bogus. He went up against numerous #2 defensive teams in his prime - '88-'90 Pistons, '92 Knicks and Blazers - and averaged great numbers against them on excellent efficiency. And mind you, despite their #2 ranking, 3 of these 4 teams were ABSOLUTELY the best defensive teams in the league that year. Yet MJ fared spectacularly against them. Which should tell you that his struggles in '96 and '97 were more age+fatigue related than anything to do with OMG!#1 defense shuts down MJ1!!!!. He was 33/34 by then and unbelievably tired come playoffs - as anybody who has actually seen these games will tell you. Great defensive teams will have their way against old, tired legs. The fact that he was still leading his team to championships at that age is a bigger testament to his greatness than anything. No other ALL-TIME great outside of Kareem(who hardly had to carry the load like MJ) was leading his team to rings from 33-35.
Great post as usual. He averaged 33 ppg for his career against top 5 defenses in his entire play off career. the 92 Knicks ere arguably just as good as the 93 Knicks and featured strong perimeter defenders in the X-Man and Gerald Wilkins yet MJ still averaged over 30 ppg for the entire series on nearly 50 % shooting while shooting mainly jumpers. I believe he didn't dunk the ball once in the first two games and he had to muscle his defenders in the post for a lot of scores.

People mention those 96-98 years poor shooting performances against top notch defensive teams fail to mention Jordan was probably the only player ever to lead an entire perimeter oriented team to the championship. Unlike the 91-93 years, he had a terrible front court on the offensive end and all the Bulls points came from the perimeter. Winning with a perimeter team is extremely hard to do as you need at least one player who can play in the paint on the offensive end consistently, which those Bulls teams did not have.

Oh yeah to Roundball Rock/Fatal you keep mentioning how Pip saved the day in the 93 series (he was arguably the MVP of the series but MJ did carry the team in game 4 and carried the Bulls in the second half of game 5 when he scored like 17 straight points and dished an assist for the game winner to B.J. Armstrong) but if someone wanted to go back in history and bring up the series where MJ came up big while Pip did not play that well, one could find a lot of series. Just letting you know

[ukplayer4]

lmao at this guy fatal, another day, another pitiful attempt to lie and twist numbers to try and bring mj down nearer to kobes level. and again we see several people destroy his pathetic attempts, which prompley results in him not adressing the points.

tomorrow we will see another attempt im sure. when will this guy stop? whatever he does when compared with accurate stats mj dumps on kobe from a great height just accept it. kobe is a great player, the best we have right now and is still forming his legacy but he is nowhere near michael. everyone who has watched them both has no ilussion on this issue at all.

[unbreakable]

I dont see how he's bringing MJ down.. he's just letting people know MJ had "average or below average" series as well as any other great player has.

[DonDadda59]

lmao at this guy fatal, another day, another pitiful attempt to lie and twist numbers to try and bring mj down nearer to kobes level. and again we see several people destroy his pathetic attempts, which prompley results in him not adressing the points.

tomorrow we will see another attempt im sure. when will this guy stop? whatever he does when compared with accurate stats mj dumps on kobe from a great height just accept it. kobe is a great player, the best we have right now and is still forming his legacy but he is nowhere near michael. everyone who has watched them both has no ilussion on this issue at all.

:applause:

But I'm sure we'll hear how 'indifferent' he is to Kobe and how Jordan is one of his favorite players. :violin:

[chitownsfinest]

:applause:

But I'm sure we'll hear how 'indifferent' he is to Kobe and how Jordan is one of his favorite players. :violin:
:roll: His new flavor of the week is Brandon Roy from what I heard.

[Da_Realist]

Oh yeah to Roundball Rock/Fatal you keep mentioning how Pip saved the day in the 93 series (he was arguably the MVP of the series but MJ did carry the team in game 4 and carried the Bulls in the second half of game 5 when he scored like 17 straight points and dished an assist for the game winner to B.J. Armstrong) but if someone wanted to go back in history and bring up the series where MJ came up big while Pip did not play that well, one could find a lot of series. Just letting you know

MJ had a triple double in Game 5, but that doesn't convey the type of game he had. If anyone wants to watch a player totally dominate a game, they should watch MJ in Game 5 of the 93 ECSF vs NY. Unbelievable all around play.

Honorable mention -- Magic Johnson in the 88 Finals vs Detroit Game 3.

Both on my youtube page (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tjhunt76&view=playlists) if anyone is interested.

[DonDadda59]

:roll: His new flavor of the week is Brandon Roy from what I heard.

3 to 1 odds it'll be Danny Granger next week, w/ a new Dennis Rodman avatar.

[crisoner]

Yeah.... this definitely proves it.

Kobe is better than MJ.


LOL

[Leviathon1121]

9 times out of 10, the best of Kobe Bryant needs to be compared to the worst of Michael Jordan for there to be any sort of resemblance, hence the handpicked Jordan stats.

[bruceblitz]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136380


/thread

[chitownsfinest]

MJ had a triple double in Game 5, but that doesn't convey the type of game he had. If anyone wants to watch a player totally dominate a game, they should watch MJ in Game 5 of the 93 ECSF vs NY. Unbelievable all around play.

Honorable mention -- Magic Johnson in the 88 Finals vs Detroit Game 3.

Both on my youtube page (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tjhunt76&view=playlists) if anyone is interested.
Yeah I have that game on tape. He basically spent the entire first half feeding Pip and Cartright for open looks and then dominated the second half with the amazing second half to keep the Bulls in it, and answered Ewing on every play (who was amazing in that game as well). He then drew the double and found Armstrong in the corner wide open for game winner. Absolutely epic game.

BTW much thanks for uploading the Bulls-Suns series. Almost done watching game 3 and it is amazing Jordan went 1-10 in the 4th but he still played lockdown D on KJ in the last 6 mins (who had been torching the Bulls in that game), had a clutch steal to Pip for the dunk to start the comeback in the 4th, and had a clutch assist to Horace Grant for the game tying dunk. I know the Suns go on to win that game but MJ was one of those players you had to look beyond the boxscore for (same with Scottie). Even if he wasn't shooting well, he still left his mark in the game.

[Da_Realist]

MJ was one of those players you had to look beyond the boxscore for (same with Scottie). Even if he wasn't shooting well, he still left his mark in the game.

Very, very true. :cheers:

[chopchop20]

kobe in 04 had two playoff series under 39 percent.. Houston and Pistons. KOBE PLAYED WITH KARL MALONE, PAYTON, AND SHAQ... LOL

Kobe shot 37 percent in 2000 finals , 41 PERCENT IN 2001 FINALS, 40 PERCENT IN 08 FINALS... In every one of these finals he played with a player who shot over 50 percent... Gasol and Odom both shot over 50 percent in last years finals...


PIPPEN'S SHOOTING IN THE PLAYOFFS ARE AS FOLLOW

.39 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1996
.417 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1997
.415 PERCENT FOR ENTIRE PLAYOFFS 1998

SHAQ SHOT OVER 50 PERCENT IN ANY OF THOSE SERIES KOBE WAS FIRING UP BLANKS.. LOL

Good thing greatness isn't measured on paper. These stats won't tell you how many plays MJ and Kobe made for their teammates like Paxson and Kerr or Horry and Fisher. Or how many shots they hit in the 4th quarter or clutch free throws down the stretch, etc...

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Is it true that MJ once shot 18% in a playoff game?
AND
Pippen had to carry him thru a series against the Knicks?

[bruceblitz]

Is it true that MJ once shot 18% in a playoff game?
AND
Pippen had to carry him thru a series against the Knicks?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136380


/thread


Eat sh!t dumb focker

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Eat sh!t dumb focker

so very articulate.
so its true MJ shot 18% and Pippen carried him thru the Knicks?
oh well, nobody's perfect.
I also saw the stats where he shot below 30% several times. yikes!
Maybe you are right...prime Lebron is statistically superior to prime MJ?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Credit Fatal 9:

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them.

[NBASTATMAN]

Is it true that MJ once shot 18% in a playoff game?
AND
Pippen had to carry him thru a series against the Knicks?


He did shoot 18 percent but had 11 assists... I can find games where other greats have shot a similar percentage but didn't have that many assists.. But I won't waste my time... Pippen carried that team like Gasol carried the lakers past ORLANDO...

[bruceblitz]

He did shoot 18 percent but had 11 assists... I can find games where other greats have shot a similar percentage but didn't have that many assists.. But I won't waste my time... Pippen carried that team like Gasol carried the lakers past ORLANDO...
The same Pippen who shot 4-14 in game 4 when Jordan dumped 54 points

WITH AN INJURED WRIST

[Samurai Swoosh]

He did shoot 18 percent but had 11 assists... I can find games where other greats have shot a similar percentage but didn't have that many assists.. But I won't waste my time... Pippen carried that team like Gasol carried the lakers past ORLANDO...
Which in turn means Scottie Pippen DIDN'T carry the Bulls in that series, just as Pau Gasol didn't carry the Lakers in the Finals against the Magic.

Michael Jordan was always the best player on the floor, even when not playing his best. Just as clearly Kobe Bryant was the best player on the floor for the Lakers all through out the playoffs and Finals.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The same Pippen who shot 4-14 in game 4 when Jordan dumped 54 points

WITH AN INJURED WRIST
Can't use the injured wrist as an excuse, bro. Jordan played with it injured the whole year. Because if you play that card, Kobe's had a mangled finger on his shooting hand the past 2 seasons which he can barely bend. He had a wrist issue as well, all last year. I mean seriously ...

No excuses, Jordan didn't shoot his best % in the '93 series against the Knicks. He was still the Bulls best player, and still was fantastic in the series. His FG% could be attributed to his wrist, great defense, and numerous other things. But mainly the Knicks, specifically Starks was playing inspired defense on MJ that series.

[juju151111]

3 to 1 odds it'll be Danny Granger next week, w/ a new Dennis Rodman avatar.
?? He said Wade was last week no joke.

[nnn123]

Can't use the injured wrist as an excuse, bro. Jordan played with it injured the whole year.

I think that his wrist injury during the knicks series was more severe than the one he suffered w/ throughout the season. The youtube user "tjhunt76" has recently been uploading games from the bulls/suns series, and I caught this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A7WFOKrKs&feature=channel_page#t=0m12s

I just remember that he was suffering from a pretty significant wrist injury during that series, but I don't remember exactly how he injured it. And I know some people have been expressing skepticism in this thread "what happened to his injury during the suns series!" but as Rashad suggests here maybe it just got better over time

[Samurai Swoosh]

I think that his wrist injury during the knicks series was more severe than the one he suffered w/ throughout the season. The youtube user "tjhunt76" has recently been uploading games from the bulls/suns series, and I caught this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16A7WFOKrKs&feature=channel_page#t=0m12s

I just remember that he was suffering from a pretty significant wrist injury during that series, but I don't remember exactly how he injured it. And I know some people have been expressing skepticism in this thread "what happened to his injury during the suns series!" but as Rashad suggests here maybe it just got better over time
Well he removed the black wrist guard he had been wearing on his shooting wrist the whole year for the Finals.

[plowking]

How come Fatal has never made a thread like this about Kobe?

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: at the MJ groupies coming in yet again, and turning this thread in to a Kobe one. The thread was to show MJ wasn't some sort of a miracle worker like certain posters would lead you to believe.


Who can forget Indian_Guy? :oldlol: at him saying the Hugh Hollins call was a good/legit one, while claiming to be a hardcore Bulls fan. Ever seen an alleged fan get exposed that bad? :oldlol:

:roll: That was the funniest thing I have ever seen here.


http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-...als-game-7.php and prove Bosh was better then him in 09.Prove duncan was in 09.

Michael "clear GOAT" Jordan: shot 17% when the Bulls were down 0-2 in the ECF and facing de facto elimination. Thankfully Scottie Pippen were there to score 29 points on 83% shooting. Would MJ be the "clear GOAT" if he won only 2 rings?

Post a "Gasol is a top 5 PF" thread and I will. I made a response in that other thread but it was deleted by the time I posted it.


In his prime years, he only really had one really bad series against #1 defense (93 Knicks, as you mentioned) and it's funny how he was injured for the first couple of games of the series

Legit point but why was he still jacking up 24 shots a game if he was hurt?



Oh yeah to Roundball Rock/Fatal you keep mentioning how Pip saved the day in the 93 series (he was arguably the MVP of the series but MJ did carry the team in game 4 and carried the Bulls in the second half of game 5 when he scored like 17 straight points and dished an assist for the game winner to B.J. Armstrong) but if someone wanted to go back in history and bring up the series where MJ came up big while Pip did not play that well, one could find a lot of series. Just letting you know

True, but according to MJ stans like bruceblitz MJ never had a bad series and was the primary reason the Bulls won each time they won--forget about series--a playoff game!


MJ was one of those players you had to look beyond the boxscore for (same with Scottie). Even if he wasn't shooting well, he still left his mark in the game.

:applause:


Michael Jordan was always the best player on the floor, even when not playing his best.

:roll: MJ was not the best player in the 93' ECF.


Can't use the injured wrist as an excuse, bro. Jordan played with it injured the whole year.

Exactly. Why was MJ jacking up 24 shots in every game if his wrist rendered him ineffective? There are three possibilities:

1) MJ was such a ballhog he did not care about winning. He cared only about "getting his."
2) MJ was a moron
3) MJ's wrist did not effect him significantly and MJ did not allow it to affect how he played

No one has ever accused MJ of being dumb so it is either #1 or #3.

[nnn123]

Exactly. Why was MJ jacking up 24 shots in every game if his wrist rendered him ineffective? There are three possibilities:

1) MJ was such a ballhog he did not care about winning. He cared only about "getting his."
2) MJ was a moron
3) MJ's wrist did not effect him significantly and MJ did not allow it to affect how he played

No one has ever accused MJ of being dumb so it is either #1 or #3.


Or maybe he was trying to keep his team in the game but the plan backfired?? I don't really think this is enough to suggest he "was a ballhog who didn't care about winning" nor is it enough to suggest that "his wrist didn't affect him significantly". Maybe being the competitor that he is, he just kept on shooting (which didn't turn out to be a good idea)

[veilside23]

FACT IS jordan NEVER SCORED BELOW 20 points in a finals game..

YOUR GOD KOBE:confusedshrug:

so please stop making kobe look good by making jordan look bad.. because it makes me vomit.. this is why there's hate around here because of bad kobe fan boys :D

jordan 6 out of 6 in a finals game.. need i say more?


so stop the comparison.....

[imlmf]

lol at these bunch of kobe ******ger having fun in their own little imaginary world where kobe is as great as jordan, led by the self proclaimed jordan fan while every single ISHer knows he's in love with kobe

[OldSchoolBBall]

LMAO @ the agenda of this topic. :oldlol:

Taking one series with a sprained wrist ('93 vs. NY), one series where he missed a ton of gimmes, as you've admitted in other topics ('96 vs. Seattle), and another series where he was 34 years old to make some sort of spurious point. Terrible. :oldlol:

Why don't you include his numbers against top 3 defenses. Oh, I know why, because then you'd have to include his 36/6/7/53% vs. #2 ranked Portland in '92, his 31/7/6/50% vs/ NY in '92, his 43/6/6/51% vs. Boston in '86, his 30/7/6/49.5% vs. Detroit from '88-'91, or his 45/6/6/52% vs. Cleveland in '88. Sad.

Yet this dude Fatal9 will swear up and down that he's not a Kobe groupie and that Jordan is "clearly" better than Kobe, yet he takes every opportunity to disparage and minimize Jordan. Hysterical how transparent he is. :oldlol:

[LA_Showtime]

Odom played at a high level.. But the stans won't give him credit for playing well. At least the true laker fans know what Lamar is worth.. Hope he leaves the lakers.. Maybe the laker fans will see what 15 and 10 rebounds plus a guy who relieves all type of ball handling pressure does for a team..


What are you talking about? D-Rose said Lamar Odom primarily played as a 4 in the NBA Finals. Where the hell does he not give Odom props for playing well? Stop putting words into other people's mouths.:rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yup. Perimeter players today never played back when handchecking was legal, right? Kobe didn't have a 30/7/6 season with it legal, right? Or average 32/7/6/2 on 50% against the #1 defense in the league ('01 Spurs), right?

Enough of this bullsh*t argument.

Yeah, with DRob and Duncan occupied with Shaq and never helping on Kobe's drives while the team triple-teamed Shaq, and with their starting SG out with injuries, with Kobe guarded by 63 year old Terry Porter half the time. :oldlol: Kobe averaged 26 ppg/43% FG vs. Bowen from '03-'06 before they instituted the no contact rules.

[Cyclone112]

LMAO @ the agenda of this topic. :oldlol:

Taking one series with a sprained wrist ('93 vs. NY), one series where he missed a ton of gimmes, as you've admitted in other topics ('96 vs. Seattle), and another series where he was 34 years old to make some sort of spurious point. Terrible. :oldlol:

Why don't you include his numbers against top 3 defenses. Oh, I know why, because then you'd have to include his 36/6/7/53% vs. #2 ranked Portland in '92, his 31/7/6/50% vs/ NY in '92, his 43/6/6/51% vs. Boston in '86, his 30/7/6/49.5% vs. Detroit from '88-'91, or his 45/6/6/52% vs. Cleveland in '88. Sad.

Yet this dude Fatal9 will swear up and down that he's not a Kobe groupie and that Jordan is "clearly" better than Kobe, yet he takes every opportunity to disparage and minimize Jordan. Hysterical how transparent he is. :oldlol:

Did Fatal9 just get buttslammed?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Can posters please stop talking about Kobe? He has nothing to do with this thread. No point in replying to obvious trolls either (duncanmvp for example).

Discuss MJ's horrible performances vs. the #1 ranked defenses. Just keep these in mind when a Jordan stan tries to tell you Jordan would take "steaming dumps" over the '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics (who statistically are better than any team Jordan ever faced in the playoffs).

No one ever said Jordan would take steaming dumps on the Pistons and Celts, just that he would (clearly) do better than Kobe did. What I did say is that Jordan would take a crap on Orlando (and that's as close to a fact as you'll find), since Lebron averaged 38+/8/8/51% vs. them and they do not focus on star players the way other top defenses do despite their defensive rating, which is largely a result of Howard's presence in the lane.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Can't use the injured wrist as an excuse, bro. Jordan played with it injured the whole year.

Nah, he actually injured it in one of the last games in the Cavs series right before that. It's recounted in a book I have. It says that he could barely apply pressure with the wrist, and was warming up at the half shooting lefty FT's because of it.

[Fatal9]

First of all, this sprained wrist excuse is some sort of a joke right? Didn't bother him vs. the Suns when he averaged 40+ ppg on them? Are you saying the Suns defense was that bad (which could be true actually), that Jordan with a sprained wrist could put up those numbers on them?!

Secondly, it seems like people are actually arguing that Jordan's post 1993 years shouldn't be counted. Sorry, but according to you, wasn't he still the best player in the league back then? Seems like you want to take the good (3 rings, Finals MVPs, Scoring etc etc), and ignore the bad (getting shut down as he finally faces #1 defenses of the league in the playoffs). What's the deal with this? Those years are really what cemented Jordan as GOAT.

I love how now they have managed to turn this into a "top 5 defense" thread, when clearly I was showing his performance against the best defense in the league during the championship years. And frankly, he was horrible, how are people actually denying this?! As with all things, they've also managed to somehow involve Kobe in to a non-Kobe thread.

Oh, I know why, because then you'd have to include his 36/6/7/53% vs. #2 ranked Portland in '92, his 31/7/6/50% vs/ NY in '92, his 43/6/6/51% vs. Boston in '86, his 30/7/6/49.5% vs. Detroit from '88-'91, or his 45/6/6/52% vs. Cleveland in '88. Sad.
:oldlol: at trying to compare the '92 Knicks defense to that in '93 and '94.

The Boston performance was over 3 games and Celtics really made no real effort to stop him (they didn't need to), and plus I clearly said "during the championship years". Did burn DJ (shorter!) in that series though...but what about him being held to 41 FG% the next year? Why won't you mention that? :oldlol:

The performance against Portland was incredible. I made a thread about the 3-4 minute stretch in game 1 (back to back to back to back shots), which is my favorite Jordan moment in the finals. No one ever said he didn't play well in some series vs. good defensive teams.

:oldlol: at bringing the Cavs in to this. Their defensive statistics are on par with this year's Bobcats.

As for the Pistons defense, I have always said that Jordan rules being applied through 88-91 is a myth. They were used in '88 mostly after a monster game Jordan had in the regular season, used in the '88-'89 regular season, not used at all in the '89 series (Dick Versace, who called the games agrees), not used at all in '91. Once the triangle was instituted under Jackson, the rules were in fact useless. :oldlol: at you you masking the horrible series in '88 (27 ppg, 4.6 assists with high turnovers, don't have the FG%, but probably around 47-48%) by stretching it out to '91. Didn't have a spectacular series in '89 when the Jordan rules weren't being used either, though he had a couple of big games. Once his teammates (mainly Pippen/Grant), improved, the Pistons could not play the same defense on him anymore and as a result he played well in the '90 and '91 series. Keep in mind that Detroit never really had any shot blocking/changing presence at the rim to the degree of Ben Wallace or Kevin Garnett.


Again, no one is saying he couldn't play well against good defensive team, he torched several of them in fact. What I was trying to do was point out that Jordan isn't what most of his fanatic groupies cook him up to be. GOAT? Yes. Invincible? No.

[Abraham Lincoln]

:oldlol: at trying to compare the '92 Knicks defense to that in '93 and '94.


The 1992 Knicks be their best team of the Ewing era, with the superior defense. Is thou remarking that the likes of Charles Smith and Glenn Rivers be superior to Xavier McDaniel and Gerald Wilkins? Tis no contest.

[lolwut]

Jordan never went to the Finals and got humiliatingly bounced.

[Fatal9]

The 1992 Knicks be their best team of the Ewing era, with the superior defense. Is thou remarking that the likes of Charles Smith and Glenn Rivers be superior to Xavier McDaniel and Gerald Wilkins? Tis no contest.
Anyone who agrees, please raise your hand :oldlol:. '92 Knicks were the big underdogs for a reason, no one thought going in that they were they type of team who could make it out of the second round, or had the defense to contain Jordan. But let me get this straight:

'92 Knicks were the best Ewing era team when they won a) only 51 games, b) were ousted in the second round and c) are no where close to matching the defensive efficiency of the '93 and '94 teams. This doesn't sound like a very wise man to me :no:

[juju151111]

First of all, this sprained wrist excuse is some sort of a joke right? Didn't bother him vs. the Suns when he averaged 40+ ppg on them? Are you saying the Suns defense was that bad (which could be true actually), that Jordan with a sprained wrist could put up those numbers on them?!

Secondly, it seems like people are actually arguing that Jordan's post 1993 years shouldn't be counted. Sorry, but according to you, wasn't he still the best player in the league back then? Seems like you want to take the good (3 rings, Finals MVPs, Scoring etc etc), and ignore the bad (getting shut down as he finally faces #1 defenses of the league in the playoffs). What's the deal with this? Those years are really what cemented Jordan as GOAT.

I love how now they have managed to turn this into a "top 5 defense" thread, when clearly I was showing his performance against the best defense in the league during the championship years. And frankly, he was horrible, how are people actually denying this?! As with all things, they've also managed to somehow involve Kobe in to a non-Kobe thread.

:oldlol: at trying to compare the '92 Knicks defense to that in '93 and '94.

The Boston performance was over 3 games and Celtics really made no real effort to stop him (they didn't need to), and plus I clearly said "during the championship years". Did burn DJ (shorter!) in that series though...but what about him being held to 41 FG% the next year? Why won't you mention that? :oldlol:

The performance against Portland was incredible. I made a thread about the 3-4 minute stretch in game 1 (back to back to back to back shots), which is my favorite Jordan moment in the finals. No one ever said he didn't play well in some series vs. good defensive teams.

:oldlol: at bringing the Cavs in to this. Their defensive statistics are on par with this year's Bobcats.

As for the Pistons defense, I have always said that Jordan rules being applied through 88-91 is a myth. They were used in '88 mostly after a monster game Jordan had in the regular season, used in the '88-'89 regular season, not used at all in the '89 series (Dick Versace, who called the games agrees), not used at all in '91. Once the triangle was instituted under Jackson, the rules were in fact useless. :oldlol: at you you masking the horrible series in '88 (27 ppg, 4.6 assists with high turnovers, don't have the FG%, but probably around 47-48%) by stretching it out to '91. Didn't have a spectacular series in '89 when the Jordan rules weren't being used either, though he had a couple of big games. Once his teammates (mainly Pippen/Grant), improved, the Pistons could not play the same defense on him anymore and as a result he played well in the '90 and '91 series.


Again, no one is saying he couldn't play well against good defensive team, he torched several of them in fact. What I was trying to do was point out that Jordan isn't what most of his fanatic groupies cook him up to be. GOAT? Yes. Invincible? No.
If it didn't bother him why was he shooting airballs then on open shots?? Your a dumb****. Just like when Kobe first injured his pinky for a strech his FG% was horrible and was shooting airballs. LOL Who was on the Knicks in 93 that wasn't on the 92 team?? The only person who left was Xmen who wasn't on the 93 team to bother Pippen. Your a pretty stupid and fake person. Where is the video of pippen guarding Magic in gm3 fatal. Remember you said you have those gms?:rolleyes: Who is saying take out his old man years?? Even through MJ shot bad in his old years who still won it in the CLUTCH? Go into Bruce thread to see his stats against the pistons from 88-91. Everyone can see through you.

[Duncan21formvp]

Anyone who agrees, please raise your hand :oldlol:. '92 Knicks were the big underdogs for a reason, no one thought going in that they were they type of team who could make it out of the second round, or had the defense to contain Jordan. But let me get this straight:

'92 Knicks were the best Ewing era team when they won a) only 51 games, b) were ousted in the second round and c) are no where close to matching the defensive efficiency of the '93 and '94 teams. This doesn't sound like a very wise man to me :no:

Post from Loki

The '92 Knicks were virtually the same exact team as they were in 1993. They added Rolando Blackman, who was never a noted defender, and lost Gerald Wilkins, who was.

Looking at the '92 Knicks' DRtg isn't too informative. They started to peak defensively over the latter half of the season and especially the playoffs (it took time for the Riley philosophy and defensive schemes to take hold; that was his first year coaching NY). The Knicks held teams to 95.2 ppg the second half of the season and and 100.2 ppg the first half of the season; they held teams to 94.8 ppg the final 22 games of the regular season.

For reference, here's what the Knicks held the Pistons and the Bulls to in the playoffs that year: 89.2 ppg on 44.9% FG.

And here's what those teams averaged during the regular season: 104.4 ppg on 48.7% FG.

So the Knicks held their playoff opponents to 15.2 pts/3.8% FG below their season averages, which is incredible. I did the same calculations for the '08 Celtics a while back and it was something like -10.5 pts/-3.5% FG, to give you an idea of how impressive what the Knicks did was.

[juju151111]

Anyone who agrees, please raise your hand :oldlol:. '92 Knicks were the big underdogs for a reason, no one thought going in that they were they type of team who could make it out of the second round, or had the defense to contain Jordan. But let me get this straight:

'92 Knicks were the best Ewing era team when they won a) only 51 games, b) were ousted in the second round and c) are no where close to matching the defensive efficiency of the '93 and '94 teams. This doesn't sound like a very wise man to me :no:
How much games did the 92 knicks take the superior 92 Bulls team in the playoffs?? the Xmen who shut pippen down was gone? Wilkins was a superior defender too. The 93 team couldn't even bring a hobbled MJ to a gm 7:wtf: The superior team let a 2-0 lead vanish lol. LOL

[Fatal9]

Looking at the '92 Knicks' DRtg isn't too informative. They started to peak defensively over the latter half of the season and especially the playoffs (it took time for the Riley philosophy and defensive schemes to take hold; that was his first year coaching NY). The Knicks held teams to 95.2 ppg the second half of the season and and 100.2 ppg the first half of the season; they held teams to 94.8 ppg the final 22 games of the regular season.

For reference, here's what the Knicks held the Pistons and the Bulls to in the playoffs that year: 89.2 ppg on 44.9% FG.

And here's what those teams averaged during the regular season: 104.4 ppg on 48.7% FG.

So the Knicks held their playoff opponents to 15.2 pts/3.8% FG below their season averages, which is incredible. I did the same calculations for the '08 Celtics a while back and it was something like -10.5 pts/-3.5% FG, to give you an idea of how impressive what the Knicks did was.

Interesting, so we are going to pick and choose stretches to determine the strength of a team defensively. Just wondering why he doesn't mention that the '93 Knicks held teams to 91.8 PPG over the last 17 games of the '93 season. At any point in the '92 season, the Knicks team did not match that. Or how about the '93 team holding teams to 42.5% shooting in the last 3 months of the season. In comparison, the '92 Knicks held teams to 46% shooting over the last three months. The guy is manipulating stats yet again :oldlol:

[guy]

Is it true that MJ once shot 18% in a playoff game?
AND
Pippen had to carry him thru a series against the Knicks?

In 3 of the 4 wins, Jordan had a near triple-double, a 54 point game, and an actual triple double. How exactly was he carried?

[Da_Realist]

As for the Pistons defense, I have always said that Jordan rules being applied through 88-91 is a myth. They were used in '88 mostly after a monster game Jordan had in the regular season, used in the '88-'89 regular season, not used at all in the '89 series (Dick Versace, who called the games agrees), not used at all in '91. Once the triangle was instituted under Jackson, the rules were in fact useless. :oldlol: at you you masking the horrible series in '88 (27 ppg, 4.6 assists with high turnovers, don't have the FG%, but probably around 47-48%) by stretching it out to '91.

Now you're changing the rules. First it was all about FG%. Indian_Guy shut down your argument so now you want to talk about "high turnovers".

Secondly, 27 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 50 fg% is horrible to you? Didn't think so.


Didn't have a spectacular series in '89 when the Jordan rules weren't being used either, though he had a couple of big games.

In 89, he averaged 30 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 48 fg% against the Pistons. That's not good enough for you?


Once his teammates (mainly Pippen/Grant), improved, the Pistons could not play the same defense on him anymore and as a result he played well in the '90 and '91 series.

So he played better when he was surrounded by good players? :eek:

Here is a game-by-game breakdown of his stats versus the Pistons from 88-91...


Michael Jordan's stats against the Detroit Pistons

1988
Game 1 -- 29 pts, 6 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 22
Game 2 -- 36 pts, 1 assist, 11 rebounds, 14 for 21
Game 3 -- 24 pts, 3 assists, 7 rebounds, 8 for 20
Game 4 -- 23 pts, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 22
Game 5 -- 25 pts, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 10 for 22
Series Avg -- 27.4 points, 4.6 assists, 8.8 rebounds, 49.5 fg%

1989
Game 1 -- 32 points, 4 assists, 11 rebounds, 10 for 29
Game 2 -- 27 points, 4 assists, 4 rebounds, 8 for 16
Game 3 -- 46 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 16 for 24
Game 4 -- 23 points, 4 assists, 2 rebounds, 5 for 15
Game 5 -- 18 points, 9 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 for 8
Game 6 -- 32 points, 13 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Series Avg -- 29.6 points, 6.5 assists, 5.5 rebounds, 47.9 fg%

1990
Game 1 -- 34 points, 5 assists, 7 rebounds, 12 for 25
Game 2 -- 20 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 5 for 16
Game 3 -- 47 points, 4 assists, 10 rebounds, 17 for 32
Game 4 -- 42 points, 9 assists, 4 rebounds, 13 for 25
Game 5 -- 22 points, 8 assists, 4 rebounds, 7 for 19
Game 6 -- 29 points, 2 assists, 10 rebounds, 10 for 19
Game 7 -- 31 points, 9 assists, 8 rebounds, 13 for 27
Series Avg -- 32.1 points, 6.3 assists, 7.1 rebounds, 47.2 fg%

1991
Game 1 -- 22 points, 6 assists, 3 rebounds, 6 for 15
Game 2 -- 35 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds, 10 for 20
Game 3 -- 33 points, 7 assists, 7 rebounds, 11 for 19
Game 4 -- 29 points, 8 assists, 8 rebounds, 11 for 17
Series Avg -- 29.8 points, 7 assists, 5.3 rebounds, 53.5 fg%

Overall Avg --29.7 points, 6.1 assists, 6.7 rebounds, 48.9 fg%

Find me someone outside of ISH that says the Bad Boys defense was overrated. Find someone that would actually confirm they think this year's Orlando Magic defense (rated #1, according to you) isn't leagues behind the 88-91 Detroit Pistons.

[tontoz]

Secondly, it seems like people are actually arguing that Jordan's post 1993 years shouldn't be counted.


Wrong. You are the one saying his prime years shouldn't be counted.

[Fatal9]

Now you're changing the rules. First it was all about FG%. Indian_Guy shut down your argument so now you want to talk about "high turnovers".

Secondly, 27 points, 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 50 fg% is horrible to you? Didn't think so.
Considering he averaged nearly 10 more points in the regular season, it wasn't a great series by any means. I know you've watched the games, his turnovers seem to be a bit high and his playmaking was no where near the level it would be afterwards (reason for 4.6 assists only).


In 89, he averaged 30 points, 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 48 fg%. That's not good enough for you?
I said "he wasn't spectacular" though the statistics might say that because of a couple of big games. Your gamelogs just further confirm this (25 ppg, 5.3 apg, 5.5 rpg on 39.7% in the other 4 games). His lack of aggressiveness in game 4 & 5 lost them the series imo (and Pippen getting injured in game 6), though I don't think you can really blame him because it looked like the plan from the start was to keep feeding the post and use Jordan as a decoy.

Pistons are overrated in the sense that I don't think they are up there with '93/'94 Knicks, '04 Pistons and '08 Celtics, and probably a couple of the Spurs teams, most of them were all anchored by DPOY who had the type of shot blocking presence that no one on those Pistons did (if you think Salley '89 onward was the type of presence as Wallace, Duncan or KG, then you're mistaken). Some posters have this idea that the Pistons would come in and drop the Jordan rules on a player like Kobe and shut him down in any series, when that type of a defense is very easy to beat if you have decent personnalle around you (like Kobe does). Jordan was even quoted as saying this! Playing good defense against a crap team with a superstar doesn't put you on an all-time level defensively.

[Fatal9]

Wrong. You are the one saying his prime years shouldn't be counted.
They love counting Kobe's '04, '00, '02 years though, which weren't even Kobe's prime, and were also when Kobe was the second option :confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

They love counting Kobe's '04, '00, '02 years though, which weren't even Kobe's prime, and were also when Kobe was the second option :confusedshrug:
You love counting those years as his rings, so which way is it?

OK, let's erase his 3 rings Fatal says, he was too young...

:oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
43.7ppg 6.4reb 5.7ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 63pts & a 49pt game)

1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
45.2ppg 5.4reb 4.8ast 57%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts, 50pts, & a 44pt game)

1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
39.8ppg 5.8reb 8.2ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 50pts, & two 44pt games)

1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
35.67ppg 9.5reb 8.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & two 40pt games)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
29.75ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1991 L.A. Lakers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.2 points 11.4ast 6.6reb 56%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
31.28ppg 5.7reb 4.3ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1992 Portland Trailblazers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
35.8 ppg 4.8reb 6.5ast 53%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
31.00ppg 5.0reb 5.25ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 43pts)

1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
32.16ppg 6.2reb 7.0ast 40%fg
(High scoring game: 54 pts)
Jordan had a sprained right wrist in the '93 Conference Finals against the Knicks, which he suffered in game 2 against the Cavs.

1993 Phoenix Suns ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
41.00ppg 8.5 reb 6.3ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts)



Now, Jordan past his prime:
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.25ppg 6.5reb 5.75 48%fg
(High scoring game: 48pts)

1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 3.7reb 2.7ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
36.00ppg 4.8reb 4.4ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts, also had a 44pt game)

1996 Seattle Supersonics ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.3pts 5.3rebs 4.2ast 43%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)
(Bulls ranked 1st in team defense in 1996)

1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
26.60ppg 10.2reb 5.2ast 45%fg
(High scoring game: 34pts)

1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
30.20ppg 8.0reb 2.6ast 37%fg
(High scoring game: 37pts)

1997 Utah Jazz ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.33ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 46%fg
(High scoring game: 39pts and two 38 point games)

1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.71ppg 5.7reb 4.1ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 41pts)



There you have it.


Bonus:

Forgot to post this:

Players who won Defensive player of the year awards in their career, that Jordan faced in the playoffs:
Sidney Moncrief (actually defended Jordan)
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)



Dennis Rodman (defended Jordan in spots)
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)



Gary Payton (actually defended Jordan)
1996 Seattle Supersonics ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.3pts 5.3rebs 4.2ast 43%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)
(Bulls ranked 1st in team defense in 1996)



Dikembe Mutombo
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
26.60ppg 10.2reb 5.2ast 45%fg
(High scoring game: 34pts)



Alonzo Mourning
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.25ppg 6.5reb 5.75 48%fg
(High scoring game: 48pts)

1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 3.7reb 2.7ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
30.20ppg 8.0reb 2.6ast 37%fg
(High scoring game: 37pts)

Double bonus:

Jordan's 50 point games and higher, against top 10 ranked defenses:
69 Cleveland OT 3/28/90 (9th ranked defense)
63 Boston 2OT (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 (1st ranked defense)
61 Detroit OT 3/4/87 (5th ranked defense)
61 Atlanta 4/16/87 (2cnd ranked defense)
59 Detroit 3/3/88 (2cnd ranked defense)
55 Cleveland (Playoffs) 5/1/88 (5th ranked defense)
55 Phoenix (Playoffs) 6/16/93 (9th ranked defense)
55 New York 3/28/95 (1st ranked defense)
54 Cleveland 11/3/89 (9th ranked defense)
54 New York (Playoffs) 5/31/93 (1st ranked defense)
53 Indiana 4/12/87 (8th ranked defense)
53 Phoenix 1/21/89 (5th ranked defense)
53 Detroit 3/7/96 (7th ranked defense)
52 Cleveland 12/17/87 (5th ranked defense)
52 Portland 2/26/88 (10th ranked defense)
52 Denver 11/26/88 (8th ranked defense)
51 New Orleans 12/29/01 (10th ranked defense)
51 New York 1/21/97 (2cnd ranked defense)
50 Milwaukee 4/13/87 (4th ranked NBA defense)
50 Cleveland (Playoffs) 4/28/88 (5th ranked NBA defense)
50 Milwaukee 2/16/89 (6th ranked NBA defense)
50 Cleveland (Playoffs) 5/5/89 (2cnd ranked NBA defense)


Jordan has 22 career 50 point games or higher against top 10 rated NBA defenses.

Triple bonus:

Players who won Defensive player of the year awards in their career that Jordan dropped 50 point games or higher on:

Sidney Moncrief:
50 Milwaukee 4/13/87 (4th ranked NBA defense)


Dennis Rodman:
61 Detroit OT 3/4/87 (5th ranked defense)
59 Detroit 3/3/88 (2cnd ranked defense)


Dikembe Mutombo:
50 Denver 3/24/92 (13th ranked NBA defense)

[lbj23clutch]

Fatal9 is a FRAUD. Lets see MJ's averages in the finals from his 1st 3 peat, when he was in his PRIME.

33.5ppg, 6.4rpg, 6.7apg, 50fg%, 39%3pt

MJ was already past his prime in the last 3-peat and CLEARLY had lost a step after retiring in 94'. Even past his prime he still averaged a better percantage from the field in his last 3-peat then PRIME Kobe in 5 0f Kobe's 6 finals apearances.

And can you plz take that Pippen av, you ain't folling anyone.

[catch24]

Fatal9 is a FRAUD. Lets see MJ's averages in the finals from his 1st 3 peat, when he was in his PRIME.

33.5ppg, 6.4rpg, 6.7apg, 50fg%, 39%3pt

MJ was already past his prime in the last 3-peat and CLEARLY had lost a step after retiring in 94'. Even past his prime he still averaged a better percantage from the field in his last 3-peat then PRIME Kobe in 5 0f Kobe's 6 finals apearances.

And can you plz take that Pippen av, you ain't folling anyone.

Him and roundball rock need to come out of the closet already...LOL

just saying..

[lbj23clutch]

Him and roundball rock need to come out of the closet already...LOL

just saying..
yea his act is getting OLD.

[OldSchoolBBall]

First of all, this sprained wrist excuse is some sort of a joke right?

Not a joke when it's well documented and the team's trainer says that he could barely move that hand when it happened and shortly thereafter. It was a lingering issue


and ignore the bad (getting shut down as he finally faces #1 defenses of the league in the playoffs).

Jordan wasn't "shut down" vs. Seattle at all. He missed a ton of open layups, offensive putbacks, and open 16-footers that he usually makes (and I've seen you yourself say as much in other topics). He was just off all series, and all anyone has to do is watch the games to see that. He got the shots he wanted and missed them for whatever reason.

Compare that to Kobe's poor series, where he doesn't even get the shots he wants to begin with (because unlike MJ, Kobe keeps doing the same thing over and over and over again against defenses; he doesn't move off the ball, generate offense by his defense, crash the offensive boards, post up, or do anything except try to attack head on from the top of the key against a set defense like he did vs. Boston).


:oldlol: at trying to compare the '92 Knicks defense to that in '93 and '94.

Yeah man, the '92 Knicks only held their opponents (Detroit/Chicago) to 87.3 ppg/43.7% shooting in the playoffs before the final game of the postseason, which was a Bulls blowout. This was 17.0 ppg/4.9% FG below their season's averages.

Compare that to the '93 Knicks, who held their playoff opponents (Indy/Charlotte/Chicago) to 98.7 ppg/45.4% shooting (excluding their worst defensive game of the postseason as I did for '92). This was just 9.0 ppg/2.9% FG below their season's averages. But yeah, the '92 Knicks defense wasn't comparable to '93... :oldlol:


The Boston performance was over 3 games and Celtics really made no real effort to stop him (they didn't need to)

ROFL. :oldlol: "Made no real effort to stop him." They LET HIM score all those points, man! You got it!


Did burn DJ (shorter!) in that series though...

LOL @ the bolded. :oldlol: DJ was a better defender than any Kobe has faced in the past two postseasons save perhaps for Battier.

Also love the "shorter" comment because it implies that Jordan was posting DJ up rather than what he was actually doing, which was blowing by him all series.


As for the Pistons defense, I have always said that Jordan rules being applied through 88-91 is a myth. They were used in '88 mostly after a monster game Jordan had in the regular season, used in the '88-'89 regular season, not used at all in the '89 series (Dick Versace, who called the games agrees), not used at all in '91.

Yeah, this is all pretty much bullsh*t.


:oldlol: at you you masking the horrible series in '88 (27 ppg, 4.6 assists with high turnovers, don't have the FG%, but probably around 47-48%)

Sh&t man, if 27.4 pts/8.8 reb/4.6 ast/2+ stl/1 blk/48% shooting is a "horrible" series, what are some of the series Kobe had called? :oldlol: That looks like a solid series to me. Below his usual standards, but still a good series.


by stretching it out to '91. Didn't have a spectacular series in '89 when the Jordan rules weren't being used either, though he had a couple of big games.

Again, you're full of sh*t about the Jordan Rules not being in effect in these games/postseasons. You know nothing, yet talk as if you do.


Once his teammates (mainly Pippen/Grant), improved, the Pistons could not play the same defense on him anymore and as a result he played well in the '90 and '91 series.

The hell? :oldlol: Pip averaged like 15/7/4/42% in the '90 series vs. Detroit. Grant took a similar hit. LOL @ acting like these dudes were gangbusters that enabled Jordan to play well that series (32.1/7.1/6.4/49%). Here's what these guys did in the pivotal game 7:

http://www.motorcitybadboys.com/box-score-1990-eastern-conference-finals-game-7.php

Keep talking though.


Keep in mind that Detroit never really had any shot blocking/changing presence at the rim to the degree of Ben Wallace or Kevin Garnett.

And Kobe also never had to worry about having his head taken off or being blatantly elbowed or undercut.

[Roundball_Rock]

As to Detroit vs. Chicago listen to the GOATs themselves:


"He's one of the stars of this league now," Jordan said. "He should be treated accordingly."

A person familiar with the United States Olympic selections, while requesting anonymity, said that Pippen was the fourth player chosen, behind Jordan, Patrick Ewing and David Robinson. Pippen interpreted his selection to mean he had "arrived, basically speaking." Bulls Coach Phil Jackson speaks more expansively. "The reason we were able to win the championship last year was the development of Scottie Pippen," he said.


Finally, last spring, came revenge, a four-game sweep of the Pistons, their hated Central Division rival, in the Eastern Conference finals. This time, when Pippen was knocked down by Dennis Rodman, he got up and laughed a champion's last laugh. His line for 17 playoff games averaged out to 21 points, 9 rebounds and 6 assists per game.

"Scottie's breakthrough was the Detroit series, no question," Jordan said. "He dominated them. He made them respect him."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.html?scp=29&sq=Scottie%20Pippen&st=cse&pagewanted=1

Pip did not come through in 1990 but MJ stans always ignore 1991.

[Cyclone112]

God I love it when Loki comes in and destroys these idiots. Loki spends his day out away from a computer while Fatal9 and Roundball sit all day trying to rip on Jordan. Loki comes home, logs in to ISH, spends 30 minutes or so murdering these retards and then leaves and does whatever else again while they take off because they were exposed or just start a new thread.

That boxscore Loki posted of Game 7 vs Detroit. Jordan's teammates shot 15/63(23.8%) and Jordan still managed to get 9 assists to go with his 31 points and 8 rebounds.

[bruceblitz]

God I love it when Loki comes in and destroys these idiots. Loki spends his day out away from a computer while Fatal9 and Roundball sit all day trying to rip on Jordan. Loki comes home, logs in to ISH, spends 30 minutes or so murdering these retards and then leaves and does whatever else again while they take off because they were exposed or just start a new thread.

That boxscore Loki posted of Game 7 vs Detroit. Jordan's teammates shot 15/63(23.8%) and Jordan still managed to get 9 assists to go with his 31 points and 8 rebounds.
:oldlol: :applause: :oldlol:

[Fatal9]

Not a joke when it's well documented and the team's trainer says that he could barely move that hand when it happened and shortly thereafter. It was a lingering issue
Again, you ignore the sentance after that. What about against the Suns when he dropped 40+ ppg on them? Did he transform into superhuman mode where "lingering injuries" don't affect him?



Yeah man, the '92 Knicks only held their opponents (Detroit/Chicago) to 87.3 ppg/43.7% shooting in the playoffs before the final game of the postseason, which was a Bulls blowout. This was 17.0 ppg/4.9% FG below their season's averages.

Compare that to the '93 Knicks, who held their playoff opponents (Indy/Charlotte/Chicago) to 98.7 ppg/45.4% shooting (excluding their worst defensive game of the postseason as I did for '92). This was just 9.0 ppg/2.9% FG below their season's averages. But yeah, the '92 Knicks defense wasn't comparable to '93... :oldlol:
I've already proved your calculations as being misleading in this thread earlier on, where you try to spin the '92 Knicks as being better defensively. Here it is:


Interesting, so we are going to pick and choose stretches to determine the strength of a team defensively. Just wondering why he doesn't mention that the '93 Knicks held teams to 91.8 PPG over the last 17 games of the '93 season. At any point in the '92 season, the Knicks team did not match that. Or how about the '93 team holding teams to 42.5% shooting in the last 3 months of the season. In comparison, the '92 Knicks held teams to 46% shooting over the last three months. The guy is manipulating stats yet again :oldlol:

As for the playoffs, the Knicks played Pacers who were one of the best offensive teams in the first round in '93, whereas they played probably the worst offensive team in the playoffs in '92 (Detroit). So again, quit lying and spinning stats.



Again, you're full of sh*t about the Jordan Rules not being in effect in these games/postseasons. You know nothing, yet talk as if you do.
You disagree that the only time the Jordan rules were consistently used was from the end of '88 regular season to '89 regular season. They weren't used at all in the '89 series. And certainly not in the '90 and '91 series. Daly has stated that he was very reluctant to use them, especially from '89 onward as he didn't want to give a chance to let Pippen or Grant play well offensively. In '88 they almost called them off for the playoffs (and in fact didn't play them for the first three games) because of Pippen/Grant. Here's a quote from an SI article:


In fact, the 46-point performance came when the Jordan Rules weren't in effect, Daly and his staff having called them off before the playoffs because they were concerned about the scoring of Chicago forwards Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant.


And Kobe also never had to worry about having his head taken off or being blatantly elbowed or undercut.
Yea man, it was a minefield out there :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

Again, you ignore the sentance after that. What about against the Suns when he dropped 40+ ppg on them? Did he transform into superhuman mode where "lingering injuries" don't affect him?


I've already proved your calculations as being misleading in this thread earlier on, where you try to spin the '92 Knicks as being better defensively. Here it is:



As for the playoffs, the Knicks played Pacers who were one of the best offensive teams in the first round in '93, whereas they played probably the worst offensive team in the playoffs in '92 (Detroit). So again, quit lying and spinning stats.


You disagree that the only time the Jordan rules were consistently used was from the end of '88 regular season to '89 regular season. They weren't used at all in the '89 series. And certainly not in the '90 and '91 series. Daly has stated that he was very reluctant to use them, especially from '89 onward as he didn't want to give a chance to let Pippen or Grant play well offensively. In '88 they almost called them off for the playoffs (and in fact didn't play them for the first three games) because of Pippen/Grant. Here's a quote from an SI article:



Yea man, it was a minefield out there :oldlol:
You know OldSchoolBBall will chop your head off, cook it, and shove it up your ass on a platter if you try to debate with him, so why try Fatal9? You are rapidly becoming the worst poster on these boards next to the cartoon character.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've already proved your calculations as being misleading in this thread earlier on, where you try to spin the '92 Knicks as being better defensively. Here it is:



As for the playoffs, the Knicks played Pacers who were one of the best offensive teams in the first round in '93, whereas they played probably the worst offensive team in the playoffs in '92 (Detroit). So again, quit lying and spinning stats.

I didn't spin anything. You're the one making all sorts of qualifications. I just posted what the '92 Knicks did in the playoffs defensively vs. what the '93 Knicks did in the playoffs defensively. People can draw their own conclusions.


You disagree that the only time the Jordan rules were consistently used was from the end of '88 regular season to '89 regular season. They weren't used at all in the '89 series. And certainly not in the '90 and '91 series. Daly has stated that he was very reluctant to use them, especially from '89 onward as he didn't want to give a chance to let Pippen or Grant play well offensively. In '88 they almost called them off for the playoffs (and in fact didn't play them for the first three games) because of Pippen/Grant. Here's a quote from an SI article:

In '88 they almost called them off for the playoffs, huh? NO YOU IGNORAMUS, THEY WERE DEVISED FOR THE '88 PLAYOFFS after Jordan murdered them for 49/6/8, 38/8/12, 36/10/10, ad 59 points/6 ast that season. They were implemented in the '88 playoffs and were used every series thereafter save perhaps for 1991. LOL @ acting like the Jordan Rules weren't in effect in the '89 and '90 playoffs. Wow. :oldlol:


Yea man, it was a minefield out there :oldlol:

Kobe certainly wouldn't survive. Dude gets pissy and starts throwing tantrums and dirty elbows whenever players get physical with him.

[Fatal9]

LOL @ acting like the Jordan Rules weren't in effect in the '89 and '90 playoffs. Wow. :oldlol:
Dick Versace who was a color commentator, used to get 5-6 segments a game, even pointed out in game 5 of the '89 series that Jordan rules weren't being used at all in the series. You want me to dig it up for you?!

[bruceblitz]

Dick Versace who was a color commentator, used to get 5-6 segments a game, even pointed out in game 5 of the '89 series that Jordan rules weren't being used at all in the series. You want me to dig it up for you?!
Dammit Beavis, uh huh huh huh, yeah asswipe

[bruceblitz]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

Fatal 9 wants you to watch this video! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ&feature=channel_page

1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1986 Boston Celtics ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
43.7ppg 6.4reb 5.7ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 63pts & a 49pt game)

1987 Boston Celtics ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
35.7ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 42%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1988 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
45.2ppg 5.4reb 4.8ast 57%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts, 50pts, & a 44pt game)

1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
39.8ppg 5.8reb 8.2ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 50pts, & two 44pt games)

1989 New York Knicks ranked 10th in the NBA in defense
35.67ppg 9.5reb 8.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & two 40pt games)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
29.75ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1991 L.A. Lakers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.2 points 11.4ast 6.6reb 56%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1992 New York Knicks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
31.28ppg 5.7reb 4.3ast 48%fg
(High scoring game: 42pts)

1992 Portland Trailblazers ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
35.8 ppg 4.8reb 6.5ast 53%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1993 Cleveland Cavaliers ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
31.00ppg 5.0reb 5.25ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 43pts)

1993 New York Knicks ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
32.16ppg 6.2reb 7.0ast 40%fg
(High scoring game: 54 pts)
Jordan had a sprained right wrist in the '93 Conference Finals against the Knicks, which he suffered in game 2 against the Cavs.

1993 Phoenix Suns ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
41.00ppg 8.5 reb 6.3ast 51%fg
(High scoring game: 55pts)



Now, Jordan past his prime:
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.25ppg 6.5reb 5.75 48%fg
(High scoring game: 48pts)

1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 3.7reb 2.7ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1996 New York Knicks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
36.00ppg 4.8reb 4.4ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts, also had a 44pt game)

1996 Seattle Supersonics ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.3pts 5.3rebs 4.2ast 43%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)
(Bulls ranked 1st in team defense in 1996)

1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
26.60ppg 10.2reb 5.2ast 45%fg
(High scoring game: 34pts)

1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
30.20ppg 8.0reb 2.6ast 37%fg
(High scoring game: 37pts)

1997 Utah Jazz ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.33ppg 7.0reb 6.0ast 46%fg
(High scoring game: 39pts and two 38 point games)

1998 Indiana Pacers ranked 5th in the NBA in defense
31.71ppg 5.7reb 4.1ast 47%fg
(High scoring game: 41pts)



There you have it.


Bonus:

Forgot to post this:

Players who won Defensive player of the year awards in their career, that Jordan faced in the playoffs:
Sidney Moncrief (actually defended Jordan)
1985 Milwaukee Bucks ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
29.3ppg 5.8reb 8.5ast 44%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)



Dennis Rodman (defended Jordan in spots)
1988 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.4ppg 8.8reb 4.6ast 49%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)

1989 Detroit Pistons ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
29.67ppg 5.5reb 6.5ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 46pts)

1990 Detroit Pistons ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
32.14ppg 7.1reb 6.3ast 50%fg
(High scoring game: 47pts & a 42pt game)

1991 Detroit Pistons ranked 4th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 5.3reb 7.0ast 54%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)



Gary Payton (actually defended Jordan)
1996 Seattle Supersonics ranked 2cnd in the NBA in defense
27.3pts 5.3rebs 4.2ast 43%fg
(High scoring game: 36pts)
(Bulls ranked 1st in team defense in 1996)



Dikembe Mutombo
1997 Atlanta Hawks ranked 3rd in the NBA in defense
26.60ppg 10.2reb 5.2ast 45%fg
(High scoring game: 34pts)



Alonzo Mourning
1995 Charlotte Hornets ranked 9th in the NBA in defense
32.25ppg 6.5reb 5.75 48%fg
(High scoring game: 48pts)

1996 Miami Heat ranked 6th in the NBA in defense
30.00ppg 3.7reb 2.7ast 52%fg
(High scoring game: 35pts)

1997 Miami Heat ranked 1st in the NBA in defense
30.20ppg 8.0reb 2.6ast 37%fg
(High scoring game: 37pts)

Double bonus:

Jordan's 50 point games and higher, against top 10 ranked defenses:
69 Cleveland OT 3/28/90 (9th ranked defense)
63 Boston 2OT (Playoffs) * 4/20/86 (1st ranked defense)
61 Detroit OT 3/4/87 (5th ranked defense)
61 Atlanta 4/16/87 (2cnd ranked defense)
59 Detroit 3/3/88 (2cnd ranked defense)
55 Cleveland (Playoffs) 5/1/88 (5th ranked defense)
55 Phoenix (Playoffs) 6/16/93 (9th ranked defense)
55 New York 3/28/95 (1st ranked defense)
54 Cleveland 11/3/89 (9th ranked defense)
54 New York (Playoffs) 5/31/93 (1st ranked defense)
53 Indiana 4/12/87 (8th ranked defense)
53 Phoenix 1/21/89 (5th ranked defense)
53 Detroit 3/7/96 (7th ranked defense)
52 Cleveland 12/17/87 (5th ranked defense)
52 Portland 2/26/88 (10th ranked defense)
52 Denver 11/26/88 (8th ranked defense)
51 New Orleans 12/29/01 (10th ranked defense)
51 New York 1/21/97 (2cnd ranked defense)
50 Milwaukee 4/13/87 (4th ranked NBA defense)
50 Cleveland (Playoffs) 4/28/88 (5th ranked NBA defense)
50 Milwaukee 2/16/89 (6th ranked NBA defense)
50 Cleveland (Playoffs) 5/5/89 (2cnd ranked NBA defense)


Jordan has 22 career 50 point games or higher against top 10 rated NBA defenses.

Triple bonus:

Players who won Defensive player of the year awards in their career that Jordan dropped 50 point games or higher on:

Sidney Moncrief:
50 Milwaukee 4/13/87 (4th ranked NBA defense)


Dennis Rodman:
61 Detroit OT 3/4/87 (5th ranked defense)
59 Detroit 3/3/88 (2cnd ranked defense)


Dikembe Mutombo:
50 Denver 3/24/92 (13th ranked NBA defense)

You guys see the way I defend Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali, the reason for that is simple, sports fans have short memories, and yes, I admit, I spend too much time watching vintage sports, so it's fresh in my mind. I'm just a big sports fan, not a homer. You can't say the same for Alborz in wonderland. I'm just your normal every day fan, some people agree with my opinions, some disagree. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree. Not the least bit.

Fatal9's myths debunked:
-Jordan played against "shorter" players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX5Zy5Ms9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cV2_Cr8GNo

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Players weren't athletic in the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uc465y2tl4

-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Kobe faced an amazing innate zone defense in the 2008 Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME

-Jordan wouldn't be able to own Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y

Jordan wouldn't be able to own KG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc

This guy reminds us of Fatal9:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Fatal9 needs this guy to help him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

the real top 10 NBA players of all time:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2747391

effects of the rules changes:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2717202

Jordan's career compared to current stars:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

Jordan's career compared to the legends:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

[andgar923]

Fatal 9 keeps insisting that the "Jordan Rules" were only used for a specific time and he may be correct.

But what he either doesn't know or isn't telling us, is how the "Jordan Rules" were adapted and expanded upon by basically everybody MJ faced. They soon became the foundation of most modern defensive styles. And progressively improved over a period of time, which peaked in the mid 90s.

That was until the NBA started to clamp down on the physicality in the mid to late 90s incrementally, even MJ played in a more watered down era during the late 90s. And as we all know, the 2k era saw defense as a whole get neutered.

So basically MJ faced the toughest defense ever.

Never in the history of the NBA had defense been a combination of sophistication and physical as what MJ saw.

.

[DonDadda59]

Fatal 9 keeps insisting that the "Jordan Rules" were only used for a specific time and he may be correct.

But what he either doesn't know or isn't telling us, is how the "Jordan Rules" were adapted and expanded upon by basically everybody MJ faced. They soon became the foundation of most modern defensive styles. And progressively improved over a period of time, which peaked in the mid 90s.

That was until the NBA started to clamp down on the physicality in the mid to late 90s incrementally, even MJ played in a more watered down era during the late 90s. And as we all know, the 2k era saw defense as a whole get neutered.

So basically MJ faced the toughest defense ever.

Never in the history of the NBA had defense been a combination of sophistication and physical as what MJ saw.

.


:applause:

Nothing but the truth.

But please, someone tell me about how Jordan would've struggled against the 'zone'. :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

Fatal 9 keeps insisting that the "Jordan Rules" were only used for a specific time and he may be correct.

But what he either doesn't know or isn't telling us, is how the "Jordan Rules" were adapted and expanded upon by basically everybody MJ faced. They soon became the foundation of most modern defensive styles. And progressively improved over a period of time, which peaked in the mid 90s.

That was until the NBA started to clamp down on the physicality in the mid to late 90s incrementally, even MJ played in a more watered down era during the late 90s. And as we all know, the 2k era saw defense as a whole get neutered.

So basically MJ faced the toughest defense ever.

Never in the history of the NBA had defense been a combination of sophistication and physical as what MJ saw.

.
Someone get a fire extinguisher, put the fire out, Andgar just put flames all over Fake9.

[andgar923]

I Know what some are gonna say.... "Prove it."

Okay.... here you go:

NOTE I will only highlight a few of them, for a more detailed rule changes just click here. (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html) and start from the 94-95 season.

94-95:

[DonDadda59]

But defenses are tougher to play against now. Nevermind that contact on the perimeter is illegal and the paint has to be cleared after 3 seconds... what about the ZONE and defenders waving hello to your face, surely it's harder to score against that then physical defense, and 7 footers camped in the paint on drives?

[andgar923]

But defenses are tougher to play against now. Nevermind that contact on the perimeter is illegal and the paint has to be cleared after 3 seconds... what about the ZONE and defenders waving hello to your face, surely it's harder to score against that then physical defense, and 7 footers camped in the paint on drives?

Which all basically eliminate "zone defense" LOL

I always love how they claim its 'zone' defense, even tho the rules defeat the purpose.

Its basically a zone defense by name only.

I mean...... that's never happened before.

Oh wait.

1981-82

[DonDadda59]

So how is the defense better now exactly? :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

So how is the defense better now exactly? :confusedshrug:

Because Kobe stans say so!

[eliteballer]

LOL @ the number of 6-3 and under SG's MJ faced, man I'd aaaalmost forgotten:hammerhead:

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE=andgar923]I Know what some are gonna say.... "Prove it."

Okay.... here you go:

NOTE I will only highlight a few of them, for a more detailed rule changes just click here. (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html) and start from the 94-95 season.

94-95:

[DonDadda59]

LOL @ the number of 6-3 and under SG's MJ faced, man I'd aaaalmost forgotten:hammerhead:

Explain yourself.

[branslowski]

Explain yourself.

Trust me, I want him to explain this too....

Guess he forgot how Kobe faced Cortney Lee and Redikk for stretches in the Finals...Also, how Kirk Hinrich has caused Kobe major Problems throughout the years...Height is important sometimes, but if you have great defensive technique and foot speed, it doesn't matter how tall you are...(As long as you arent like 5-9 or something....And IMO, lower gravity strength, and speed, comes from more 6-2...6-3, 6-4 guy's gaurding you....see Gary Payton, Dumars, Starks,)....

Atleast IMO...

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=eliteballer]1978-79

[eliteballer]

LOL...when Jordan was putting up his best number it was an offensive based run and gun league...defense wasn't the emphasis. Defense has been much more emphasized since the mid 90's. You act as if Jordan was getting handchecked on every play...simply not the case. Players handcheck today but not on every play. It's never been like that. There's a reason the Bad Boys gave up more points per game than the Nash Nowitzki Mavericks.

[andgar923]

LOL @ the number of 6-3 and under SG's MJ faced, man I'd aaaalmost forgotten:hammerhead:

Uhhhhh.... he faced 'some' 6'4 defenders, but so has Kobe.

What's your point?

And the reason MJ was guarded by shorter defenders is because he was a slasher, and smaller guards had the best chance to stay in front of him.

And MJ used to shoot over 6'10 players with ease as well, matter of fact he did it all the time, since most of his shots were mid range jumpers where the bigs used to camp. And if they managed to contest a shot, he'd just stay in the air longer (pump if he had too) and make it in.

Hell.... he was scoring over 6'8 players with ease when he was a Wizard, and he was well past his prime. His separation would've allowed him to create even more space to clear his shot, and of course..... his superior vertical and hangtime/stop on a dime was more effective than Kobe's anything.

Want video proof?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi_sLyekcDY

That's an old MJ vs more athletic players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kw0oOFoUCA

Here's against a prime Sprewell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvquD3ktNbQ

I can seriously keep posting more and more vids, specially when he blows by Rodman one of the greatest of all time.

[tontoz]

LOL @ the number of 6-3 and under SG's MJ faced, man I'd aaaalmost forgotten:hammerhead:

You mean like Courtney Lee and JJ Redick?

[97 bulls]

[QUOTE=andgar923]I Know what some are gonna say.... "Prove it."

Okay.... here you go:

NOTE I will only highlight a few of them, for a more detailed rule changes just click here. (http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html) and start from the 94-95 season.

94-95:

[andgar923]

You mean like Courtney Lee and JJ Redick?

Or Anthony Carter 6'2
Chauncey Billups 6'3
Atkins

Or the other array of guards that have guarded him during the regular season and his career, such as:

Wade
Kidd
Arenas
Marbury
Hinrich
Francis
Blake
Mayo
Baron Davis
Jamal Crawford
Monta Ellis
QRich
Etc.etc.etc.etc.

Its not MJ's fault that he drove by taller players instead of shooting over them.

[bruceblitz]

Or Anthony Carter 6'2
Chauncey Billups 6'3
Atkins

Or the other array of guards that have guarded him during the regular season and his career, such as:

Wade
Kidd
Arenas
Marbury
Hinrich
Francis
Blake
Mayo
Baron Davis
Jamal Crawford
Monta Ellis
QRich
Etc.etc.etc.etc.

Its not MJ's fault that he drove by taller players instead of shooting over them.
Top 50 perimeter defenders to face Michael Jordan
(not in order, this is not a countdown)
Grant Hill - Height 6'8"
Sean Elliott - Height 6'8"
Robert Reid - Height 6'8"
Jerry Reynolds - Height 6'8"
Walt Williams - Height 6'8"
Malik Sealy - Height 6'8"
Shawn Marion - Height 6'7"
Bruce Bowen - Height 6'7"
Lionel Simmons - Height 6'7"
Calbert Cheaney - Height 6'7"
Penny Hardaway - Height 6'7"
Bryon Russell - Height 6'7"
Clyde Drexler - Height 6'7"
Reggie Miller - Height 6'7"
Purvis Short - Height 6'7"
Tony Campbell - Height 6'7"
Dale Ellis - Height 6'7"
Steve Smith - Height 6'7"
Reggie Theus - Height 6'7"
Glen Rice - Height 6'7"
Alex English - Height 6'7"
Reggie Williams - Height 6'7"
Dominique Wilkins - Height 6'7"
Nick Anderson - Height 6'6"(typo in vid)
Gerald Wilkins - Height 6'6"
Rolando Blackman - Height 6'6"
Stacey Augmon - Height 6'6"
Doug Christie - Height 6'6"
Craig Ehlo - Height 6'6''
Ron Harper - Height 6'6"
Chris Mullin - Height 6'6"
Jim Jackson - Height 6'6"
Kobe Bryant - Height 6'6"
Ron Artest - Height 6'6"
Paul Pierce - Height 6'6"
Michael Ray Richardson - Height 6'5"
Mario Ellie - Height 6'5"
Mitch Richmond - Height 6'5"
Michael Cooper - Height 6'5"
Kendall Gill - Height 6'5"
Kerry Kittles - Height 6'5"
Raja Bell - Height 6'5"
Mike Woodson - Height 6'5"
Gary Payton - Height 6'4"
Lester Conner - Height 6'4"
Dennis Johnson - Height 6'4"
Jeff Malone - Height 6'4"
Joe Dumars - Height 6'3"
John Starks - Height 6'3"
Jeff Hornacek - Height 6'3"

HONORABLE MENTION LIST:
Hedo Turkoglu 6'10", Rashard Lewis 6'10", Terry Cummings 6'9", Cliff Robinson 6'9", James Worthy 6'9", Stromile Swift 6'9", Peja Stojakovic 6'9", Zach Randolph 6'9", Larry Bird 6'9", Billy Owens 6'8", LaPhonso Ellis 6'8", Magic Johnson 6'8", Devean George 6'8", Stephen Jackson 6'8", Kiki Vandeweghe 6'8", Antoine Walker 6'8", Kenny Walker 6'8", Eddie Robinson 6'8", Jalen Rose 6'8", Chuck Person 6'8", Donald Royal 6'8", Dennis Scott 6'8", Joe Johnson 6'8", Anthony Bonner 6'8", Tracy McGrady 6'8", Jumaine Jones 6'8", Jamal Mashburn 6'8", Richard Dumas 6'7", Michael Finley 6'7", Rick Fox 6'7", George Gervin 6'7", Richard Jefferson 6'7", Scottie Pippen 6'7", Wally Szczerbiak 6'7", Tracy Murray 6'7", Ron Mercer 6'7", Vince Carter 6'7", Chill Anderson 6'7", Johnny Newman 6'7", Terry Tyler 6'7", Reggie Lewis 6'7", Scott Burrell 6'7", Duane Ferrell 6'7", Anthony Bowie 6'6", Cedric Ceballos 6'6", Ty Corbin 6'6", Mark Aguirre 6'6", Jim Paxson 6'6", Brent Barry 6'6", Mario Bennett 6'6", Walter Bond 6'6", Ricky Davis 6'6'', Shandon Anderson 6'6", Jamal Crawford 6'6" , Julius Erving 6'6", Latrell Sprewell 6'6", Allan Houston 6'6", Pete Myers 6'6", Eddie Jones 6'6", Corey Maggette 6'6'', Dan Majerle 6'6", Anthony Parker 6'6", Brian Shaw 6'6", Wesley Person 6'6", Michael Redd 6'6", Jason Richardson 6'6", Rip Hamilton 6'6", Jerry Stackhouse 6'6", Lucious Harris 6'5", Aaron Mckie 6'5", Harold Miner 6'5", Bonzi Wells 6'5", Bobby Phills 6'5", Trent Tucker 6'5", Terence Stansbury 6'5", DeShawn Stevenson 6'5", Ray Allen 6'5",David Wingate 6'5", Isaiah Rider 6'5", Adrian Dantley 6'5", Hubert Davis 6'5", Kevin Gamble 6'5", Jeff Grayer 6'5", Sarunas Marciulionis 6'5", Voshon Lenard 6'4", Rex Chapman 6'4", Vinny Del Negro 6'4", Danny Ainge 6'4", Jason Kidd 6'4", Jon Barry 6'4", Anthony Peeler 6'4", Cuttino Mobley 6'4", Greg Graham 6'4", Sidney Moncrief 6'3", Gilbert Arenas 6'3", Kenny Smith 6'3", LaBradford Smith 6'3", Jamaal Tinsley 6'3", Sam Cassell 6'3", Baron Davis 6'3", Steve Francis 6'3", Rod Strickland 6'3", Kirk Hinrich 6'3", Byron Scott 6'3", Alvin Robertson 6'3", Hersey Hawkins 6'3", Terry Porter 6'3", Stephon Marbury 6'2", Lindsey Hunter 6'2", Sedale Threatt 6'2", Mark Jackson 6'1", Isiah Thomas 6'1", John Stockton 6'1", Nick Van Exel 6'1", Tim Hardaway 6'0", Allen Iverson 6'0", Mark Price 6'0", David Wesley 6'0",
These are not ALL of the defenders Jordan faced, however, these are merely the defenders who are noteworthy from the Jordan era.

TO LOOK AT A PLAYER'S CAREER, GO TO http://www.basketball-reference.com
You enter their name into the "search" bar at http://www.basketball-reference.com
Year by year, average NBA player height: (1987 tallest year in the NBA's history)
http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

[bruceblitz]

Or Anthony Carter 6'2
Chauncey Billups 6'3
Atkins

Or the other array of guards that have guarded him during the regular season and his career, such as:

Wade
Kidd
Arenas
Marbury
Hinrich
Francis
Blake
Mayo
Baron Davis
Jamal Crawford
Monta Ellis
QRich
Etc.etc.etc.etc.

Its not MJ's fault that he drove by taller players instead of shooting over them.
Top 50 interior defenders to face Michael Jordan
(not in order, this is not a countdown)
Manute Bol 7'6",
Yao Ming 7'6"
Shawn Bradley 7'5"
Rik Smits 7'4",
Ralph Sampson 7'4"
Mark Eaton 7'3"
Dikembe Mutombo 7'2",
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 7'2",
Artis Gilmore 7'2",
Greg Ostertag 7'2"
Shaq O'Neal 7'1",
David Robinson 7'1",
Tree Rollins 7'1",
Tyson Chandler 7'1",
Vlade Divac 7'1"
Hakeem Olajuwon 7'0",
Patrick Ewing 7'0",
Benoit Benjamin 7'0",
Tim Duncan 7'0",
James Edwards 7'0",
Robert Parish 7'0"
Kevin Garnett 6'11",
Ervin Johnson Jr 6'11",
Marcus Camby 6'11",
Jermaine O'Neal 6'11",
Andrew Lang 6'11",
Roy Tarpley 6'11",
Bill Laimbeer 6'11",
Hot Rod Williams 6'11"
Alonzo Mourning 6'10",
Moses Malone 6'10",
Larry Nance 6'10",
Tom Gugliotta 6'10",
Theo Ratliff 6'10",
Rick Mahorn 6'10",
Shawn Kemp 6'10",
Danny Manning 6'10",
Clifford Robinson 6'10",
Kevin McHale 6'10"
Antonio McDyess 6'9",
Kenyon Martin 6'9",
Ben Wallace 6'9",
Pervis Ellison 6'9",
Andrei Kirilenko 6'9",
Chris Webber 6'9"
Bo Outlaw 6'8",
Elton Brand 6'8"
Dennis Rodman 6'7",
Jerome Kersey 6'7",
Xavier McDaniel 6'7"

HONORABLE MENTION:
Gheorghe Muresan 7'7", Priest Lauderdale 7'4", Arvydas Sabonis 7'3'', Zydrunas Ilgauskas 7'3", Rich King 7'2", Luc Longley 7'2", Bill Cartwright 7'1", Sam Bowie 7'1", Kevin Duckworth 7'0", William Bedford 7'0", Felton Spencer 7'0", Stanley Roberts 7'0", Rich Kelley 7'0", Kevin Willis 7'0", Brad Daugherty 7'0", Duane Causwell 7'0", Matt Geiger 7'0", Jon Koncak 7'0", Bryant Reeves 7'0", Alton Lister 7'0", Scot Pollard 6'11", Olden Polynice 6'11", Christian Laettner 6'11", Jamaal Magloire 6'11", Brad Lohaus 6'11", Mikki Moore 6'11", Brad Miller 6'11", Melvin Turpin 6'11", Elden Campbell 6'11", Darryl Dawkins 6'11", Stacey King 6'11", Jack Sikma 6'11", Rony Seikaly 6'11", Dale Davis 6'11", Horace Grant 6'10", Mychal Thompson 6'10", Adonal Foyle 6'10", Chris Gatling 6'10", Danny Ferry 6'10", Derrick Coleman 6'10", Terry Mills 6'10", Juwan Howard 6'9", Antoine Carr 6'9", Darius Miles 6'9", Tom Chambers 6'9", Al Harrington 6'9", Antonio Davis 6'9", Armon Gilliam 6'9", Frank Brickowski 6'9", Karl Malone 6'9", Sam Perkins 6'9", Otis Thorpe 6'9", Brian Grant 6'9", Wayman Tisdale 6'9", Harvey Grant 6'8", LaPhonso Ellis 6'8", Antawn Jamison 6'8", Charles Oakley 6'8", Bernard King 6'7", Anthony Mason 6'7", Rodney Rogers 6'7", Glenn Robinson 6'7", Corliss Williamson 6'7", Charles Barkley 6'6", Larry Johnson 6'6", Clarence Weatherspoon 6'6"
These are not ALL of the defenders Jordan faced, however, these are merely the defenders who are noteworthy from the Jordan era.

TO LOOK AT A PLAYER'S CAREER, GO TO http://www.basketball-reference.com
You enter their name into the "search" bar at http://www.basketball-reference.com
Year by year, average NBA player height: (1987 tallest year in the NBA's history)
http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

[andgar923]

great post. its just funny that they people ignore this. and obviosly the nba did it for a reason.

Basically.

The NBA saw scoring drop and violence/physical play increase, which hurt their image.

[DonDadda59]

LOL...when Jordan was putting up his best number it was an offensive based run and gun league...defense wasn't the emphasis. Defense has been much more emphasized since the mid 90's. You act as if Jordan was getting handchecked on every play...simply not the case. Players handcheck today but not on every play. It's never been like that. There's a reason the Bad Boys gave up more points per game than the Nash Nowitzki Mavericks.

And this is the part where you wish you hadn't posted anything.

Bulls Team Pace (Jordan on the roster; bold=championship years):
'84-'85: 99.4 (21 of 23)
'85-'86: 99.7 (20 of 23)
'86-'87: 95.8 (23 of 23)
'87-'88: 95.5 (23 of 23)
'88-'89: 97.0 (23 of 25)
'89-'90: 96.7 (17 of 27)
'90-'91: 95.6 (19 of 27)
'91-'92: 94.4 (22 of 27)
'92-'93: 92.5 (27 of 27)
'94-'95: 92.0 (19 of 27)
'95-'96: 91.1 (19 of 29)
'96-'97: 90.0 (17 of 29)
'97-'98: 89.0 (22 of 29)

The Bulls were never a 'run and gun' type offense, anyone who claims that has a) never seen that particular team play and b) knows nothing about NBA basketball. The mid-late 90s (when Jordan was winning championships) was the best defensive era in league history, the slowest pace the game has ever seen and the Bulls were amongst the lower paced, half court-oriented teams. SO....

http://94.100.118.38/239950001-240000000/239980501-239980600/239980595_5_v5lb.jpeg

[chitownsfinest]

LOL...when Jordan was putting up his best number it was an offensive based run and gun league...defense wasn't the emphasis. Defense has been much more emphasized since the mid 90's. You act as if Jordan was getting handchecked on every play...simply not the case. Players handcheck today but not on every play. It's never been like that. There's a reason the Bad Boys gave up more points per game than the Nash Nowitzki Mavericks.91.8 96.8
How about you adjust the ppg given up for the pace idiot?
Also, MJ averaged 32.6/6.7/5.5 on .495 shooting during the 92-93 season where the average pace of the league was 96.8. Fast forward to the 95-96 season, and MJ averaged 30.4/6.6/4.3 on .495 shooting in a league where the average pace is 91.8. Keep in mind this is MJ past his prime and with a lot of explosiveness gone. If he could clearly average around the same numbers he was averaging in a faster paced league during his prime in a much slower paced league, what makes you think prime MJ wouldn't average the same numbers he did in his prime in the extremely slower paced late 90s and the slow paced 2000? MJ also played on half court offenses for most of his career and the Bulls were usually one of the slowest paced teams in the league.

[OldSchoolBBall]

91.8 96.8
How about you adjust the ppg given up for the pace idiot?
Also, MJ averaged 32.6/6.7/5.5 on .495 shooting during the 92-93 season where the average pace of the league was 96.8. Fast forward to the 95-96 season, and MJ averaged 30.4/6.6/4.3 on .495 shooting in a league where the average pace is 91.8. Keep in mind this is MJ past his prime and with a lot of explosiveness gone. If he could clearly average around the same numbers he was averaging in a faster paced league during his prime in a much slower paced league, what makes you think prime MJ wouldn't average the same numbers he did in his prime in the extremely slower paced late 90s and the slow paced 2000? MJ also played on half court offenses for most of his career and the Bulls were usually one of the slowest paced teams in the league.

It's sheer stupidity, really. Jordan's numbers decreased linearly with age. Plus, superstars' numbers are hardly impacted at all by pace, except in extreme cases (e.g., 80's Nuggs or Showtime Lakers; as noted, the Bulls generally played at a 90-95 pace). Jordan averaged 33.6 ppg on a 96 pace factor team in 1990, and he averaged 32.6 ppg on a 92.5 pace factor team at age 30. It's all age and wear and tear. Pace has nothing to do with superstars' production, by and large, which is one of the reasons why I feel that despite dominating in the metric, Jordan's PER was actually underrated, since his numbers were being adjusted for a higher league pace that had virtually nothing to do with his on effectiveness.

[1987_Lakers]

interesting

[NBAGOAT]

fatal is a famous poster but this wasnt a good post. May as well just look at every series then but it's pretty obvious better defenses correlate with worse numbers and this applies to everyone(bron included). also just lol at bruceblitz in his prime. it's funny to see people say back then superstar numbers arent affected by pace(that's wrong) and suddenly now some of those people are backtracking because scoring numbers are crazy even though guys are playing less minutes

[Honor Boost]

interesting

Interesting

[Roundball_Rock]

fatal is a famous poster but this wasnt a good post. May as well just look at every series then but it's pretty obvious better defenses correlate with worse numbers and this applies to everyone(bron included).

Fatal9 is definitely on the Mount Rushmore of ISH posters. :bowdown:

If I recall correctly the context for his post was MJ stans kept harping on Kobe's FG % in certain series--which happened to be against #1 defenses. The claim, as usual was, "MJ would never..." and Fatal wanted to show MJ didn't walk on water. Another factor presumably was MJ stans then, as now, like to pretend MJ never had "down" series.

[dankok8]

Fatal9 is definitely on the Mount Rushmore of ISH posters. :bowdown:

If I recall correctly the context for his post was MJ stans kept harping on Kobe's FG % in certain series--which happened to be against #1 defenses. The claim, as usual was, "MJ would never..." and Fatal wanted to show MJ didn't walk on water. Another factor presumably was MJ stans then, as now, like to pretend MJ never had "down" series.

There's levels to down series though. Like you said in another thread, Lebron's (and Kobe's) floor was much lower than MJ's.

MJ's floor is shooting the ball poorly though his TS was still above 50% against Knicks and Sonics. The Heat series was the only one in his career I think where his TS was below 50% and it happened in a comfortable 4-1 series win. And even in that Heat series I bet he had like 2-3 good games.

[Roundball_Rock]

There's levels to down series though. Like you said in another thread, Lebron's (and Kobe's) floor was much lower than MJ's.

MJ's floor is shooting the ball poorly though his TS was still above 50% against Knicks and Sonics. The Heat series was the only one in his career I think where his TS was below 50% and it happened in a comfortable 4-1 series win. And even in that Heat series I bet he had like 2-3 good games.

Agreed. I was explaining the context of what let to the OP as I remember the MJ vs. Kobe wars.

The issue with MJ fans is they always oversell things. What you said is accurate--his "floor" was extremely high. They often don't say that, though. It is "MJ never had a bad series", "MJ never had two bad games in a row" etc. or instead of saying MJ took a good team w/out him to an all-time great team we hear he had no help etc. The MJ crowd was big on Kobe's series against Boston and Detroit in particular.

[dankok8]

Agreed. I was explaining the context of what let to the OP as I remember the MJ vs. Kobe wars.

The issue with MJ fans is they always oversell things. What you said is accurate--his "floor" was extremely high. They often don't say that, though. It is "MJ never had a bad series", "MJ never had two bad games in a row" etc. or instead of saying MJ took a good team w/out him to an all-time great team we hear he had no help etc. The MJ crowd was big on Kobe's series against Boston and Detroit in particular.

Saying he never had a bad series is like saying his floor is extremely high. I don't exactly see a big difference between those statements.

[Roundball_Rock]

Saying he never had a bad series is like saying his floor is extremely high. I don't exactly see a big difference between those statements.

You could say the same thing about Kobe. What are "bad" series for these players would be career best series for 99% of players.

One example MJ stans kept bringing up around the time of Fatal's OP was the 08' finals. 26/5/5 on 41%. Awfully similar to:


'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

Fatal also did an "anti-clutch log" for MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?140520-Michael-Jordan-Anti-clutch-Log He had more of an explanation in that OP (specific examples in OP omitted after "let's begin" in my quote to get under the word limit):


We all know MJ is one of the clutchest players of all time. But what I am really interested in is to recall/note some of his anti-clutch moments, because you never really hear about them.

I'll start with some, feel free to continue. There are tons of incidents but I haven't really looked or tried to remember that hard. Just listing some for now that I remember.

Lets begin:

What's the point of this thread? Well, one to see that Jordan was human and did fail time and time again in crunchtime (he didn't have the scrutiny of the internet that players now do), and two, it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing Jordan fail at the end of games (the idea most people seem to have is Jordan probably suceeded like 80% of the time...). I think his fans will find these incidents interesting as well (I know I do!). Again, no one is debating the clutchness of Michael, it's impossible to given his record.

I think we can list hundreds on incidents, I'll keep updating. There are a lot I haven't listed yet but will soon.

[Manny98]

Yikes :roll::roll::roll:

[Micku]

I remember this thread! Hahaha! It was at the height of Kobe vs MJ.

MJ was getting really overrated in terms of the legend. Granted, he is still a beast that we still haven't really seen since in terms of the scoring output and the combination of athleticism and skillset, but still he had a couple of bad series. Not a lot tho.

But ppl were saying back then that Kobe faced better defense and that's the reason why his FG% was so low. MJ would be the same way. MJ fans were like, "Ptttttttttf." So, this happen. MJ did had better numbers against top defense tho with the 86 Celts, the Cavs and Pistons. But the Celts were the number 1 at the time. So, instead of using that entirely, they used the DTrg.

Although I think ppl still fail to really see that you shouldn't compare them across eras. Ppl do it anyway, and even me. But the style of the game changed and the rules. Like MJ has a better DTrg in 1998 than he did in 88. That doesn't mean he is a better defender, and etc and etc. There's a lot of details that got lost without looking at the whole picture. And ppl use some advance stats wrong.

But ppl kind'a turn the opposite when it comes to LeBron now. It's like the reverse of the criticism.

It's a forever cycle. After LeBron, there's going to be someone else. And ppl are going to criticize this era.

[dankok8]

I remember this thread! Hahaha! It was at the height of Kobe vs MJ.

MJ was getting really overrated in terms of the legend. Granted, he is still a beast that we still haven't really seen since in terms of the scoring output and the combination of athleticism and skillset, but still he had a couple of bad series. Not a lot tho.

But ppl were saying back then that Kobe faced better defense and that's the reason why his FG% was so low. MJ would be the same way. MJ fans were like, "Ptttttttttf." So, this happen. MJ did had better numbers against top defense tho with the 86 Celts, the Cavs and Pistons. But the Celts were the number 1 at the time. So, instead of using that entirely, they used the DTrg.

Although I think ppl still fail to really see that you shouldn't compare them across eras. Ppl do it anyway, and even me. But the style of the game changed and the rules. Like MJ has a better DTrg in 1998 than he did in 88. That doesn't mean he is a better defender, and etc and etc. There's a lot of details that got lost without looking at the whole picture. And ppl use some advance stats wrong.

But ppl kind'a turn the opposite when it comes to LeBron now. It's like the reverse of the criticism.

It's a forever cycle. After LeBron, there's going to be someone else. And ppl are going to criticize this era.

What would you consider a bad series by MJ?

[Micku]

What would you consider a bad series by MJ?

Well, I don't think that those series even with the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics were "bad" in a way that other ppl think it is. Like sure if you look at the stats, for sure. But MJ was always aggressive and played good defense too.

But by that time, I felt like he mastered getting himself and his teammates involved.

To me from what I watched, it was the Pistons in 89. Both in 88 and 89, the Pistons were double team or triple team him whenever he had the ball. They would prevent him driving and knock him on the floor whenever he did.

But to me, the reason why it was bad because I select 89, because it was hardest imo he had to work in order to get his teammates involved and play great himself. He couldn't find that balance. Not that it mattered because his teammates sucked at the time, and couldn't bury an open shot. Like he could score 46 pts, and barely win against them. He did 8 shot attempts in a way to get his teammates involved in game 5, but he obviously had to do more than that.

Ppl were talking about how he was an expensive decoy in game 5 at the time.



No wonder it was suggested that the Bulls turned Jordan into a $2.5-million-a-year decoy.

“That’s a pretty crass thing to say,” Jordan’s coach, Doug Collins, snapped back. “That’s a pretty big shot to take at us.

“Michael scores 46 points, and people say he’s not sharing enough of the offense. Now he takes eight shots and you tell him he’s the highest-priced decoy in the game.

...

He made a conscious effort, he said, to involve his teammates in the offense, what with the Pistons putting everybody but their trainer on him when he touched the ball.

“Why should I take the shots if they’re double-teaming me, triple-teaming me, sometimes even putting four guys on me?” Jordan asked. “Didn’t we still get good shots?”

Yes, Michael.

“Well, did we hit ‘em?”

No, Michael.

“That’s the whole story,” Jordan said. “We gotta hit ‘em.”


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html


But in general, he hardly have any bad series. Maybe bad series by his standards going by the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics. But those Pistons series was a big one. You might argue it wasn't bad in the stat sheet, but his impact was shut down. More so than the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics. Dude was averaging 40 ppg before facing them, nearly all three times before 91. And this is MJ at his peak/prime.

[dankok8]

Well, I don't think that those series even with the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics were "bad" in a way that other ppl think it is. Like sure if you look at the stats, for sure. But MJ was always aggressive and played good defense too.

But by that time, I felt like he mastered getting himself and his teammates involved.

To me from what I watched, it was the Pistons in 89. Both in 88 and 89, the Pistons were double team or triple team him whenever he had the ball. They would prevent him driving and knock him on the floor whenever he did.

But to me, the reason why it was bad because I select 89, because it was hardest imo he had to work in order to get his teammates involved and play great himself. He couldn't find that balance. Not that it mattered because his teammates sucked at the time, and couldn't bury an open shot. Like he could score 46 pts, and barely win against them. He did 8 shot attempts in a way to get his teammates involved in game 5, but he obviously had to do more than that.

Ppl were talking about how he was an expensive decoy in game 5 at the time.



https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html


But in general, he hardly have any bad series. Maybe bad series by his standards going by the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics. But those Pistons series was a big one. You might argue it wasn't bad in the stat sheet, but his impact was shut down. More so than the Knicks, Heat, and Sonics. Dude was averaging 40 ppg before facing them, nearly all three times before 91. And this is MJ at his peak/prime.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The only series where I've seen MJ unable to impose his will is 1989 against the Pistons (never watched the 1988 series I think). Pistons were throwing the kitchen sink at him and they simply wouldn't let one guy beat them.

[ScottieQuitting]

Him and roundball rock need to come out of the closet already...LOL

just saying..
Much like Fatal9 then, his agenda has always been apparent

[Baller789]

I wholeheartedly agree with you. The only series where I've seen MJ unable to impose his will is 1989 against the Pistons (never watched the 1988 series I think). Pistons were throwing the kitchen sink at him and they simply wouldn't let one guy beat them.

Which however you think about it. Is really really impressive to be that imposing in the playoffs. I don't think anyone was that consistent as an indivual performer.

[3ball]

OP is a liar

Jordan averaged 44/6/6 against the 86' Celtics' #1 defense

And 40/6/8; against the Cavs #1 defense in 89'

Btw, the 96' Sonics had the #2 defense, not #1

Also, OP lists Jordan's worst series, which are much better than lebron's worst.. Jordan never averaged 17 ppg like lebron, or 22 on 35% (07' Finals), or 25 on 35% (08' ecsf) or 22 ppg (14' ECF)

[Hey Yo]

OP is a liar

Jordan averaged 44/6/6 against the 86' Celtics' #1 defense

And 40/6/8; against the Cavs #1 defense in 89'

Btw, the 96' Sonics had the #2 defense, not #1

Also, OP lists Jordan's worst series, which are much better than lebron's worst.. Jordan never averaged 17 ppg like lebron, or 22 on 35% (07' Finals), or 25 on 35% (08' ecsf) or 22 ppg (14' ECF)
He clearly states in the OP that he's only referring to the Bulls championship winning years when they faced number 1 defenses in the postseason.

That's why there's no Celtics, Cavs etc..etc.. listed.

[Lebron23]

Lets look at his performance vs. #1 ranked defenses over the championship years:

'93 Knicks:
32.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 7 apg, 40.0 FG%

Now I know you are thinking these stats are helped by his only good game in the series (check out the performance! legendary stuff!!), so excluding that game he actually averaged 27.8 ppg on 35.2 FG%!! Pippen saved the day with his consistent and clutch play during this series though.

'96 Sonics:
27.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 4.2 apg, 41.1 FG%

'97 Heat:
30.2 ppg, 8 rpg, 2.6 apg, 38.6 FG%

Could you imagine what his finals statistics would be if he went up against the #1 defense each time? The Sonics series, the only #1 team he'd ever face in the finals, turned into a statistical disaster for him.

Just something to consider when folks bring in the finals statlines of other players to dismiss them. What's the reason for this post? Just to remind people Jordan was human. I am amazed by how overrated the greatest player ever has become, didn't even think that was possible. The Jordan adoration on this board is misleading people, and despite being a big fan of his, it's getting to be a bit annoying for me lately.

Solid posts from 12 years ago. Jordan struggled against tough defenses.

[hateraid]

Apparently the OP forgot a few things:

1. I doubt he has any idea how physical some of those games were. I doubt the top perimeter players today would be able to handle some of those games and shoot a better %.

2. I also doubt the OP has ever bothered to see who the best player was. For example, in that sonics finals, EVERYBODY shoot poorly. MJ was the best player on the court.

3. The OP didn't list all his games against top defensive teams.

Yet Pippen managed to hit over 50% off his shots that exact same series against that exact same defense. Go figure.

[3ba11]

Jordan never shot 35% in any series, while Lebron has several

Jordan never averaged less than 27 ppg in a series, while Lebron has many below that.

(edit: jordan has 1 series of 26 ppg)

Jordan never had a teammate get within 10 points of him in any series, while Lebron had many teammates match him for entire playoff runs.

[MadDog]

The 96 Sonics were NOT the #1 defense, they were ranked #2. So if you wanna include them, then add the 92 Knicks who also ranked #2. Against them Jordan averaged 31/6/4 on 48% from the field.

OP conveniently left that out. :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

The 96 Sonics were NOT the #1 defense, they were ranked #2. So if you wanna include them, then add the 92 Knicks who also ranked #2. Against them Jordan averaged 31/6/4 on 48% from the field.

OP conveniently left that out. :oldlol:
The Bulls were the number 1 defense in 96. I see why Fatal used the Sonics. I said the same thing when people call Pippen a failure for shooting a low percentage against the Knicks defense that was also ranked number 1 in 94.

[MadDog]

The Bulls were the number 1 defense in 96. I see why Fatal used the Sonics. I said the same thing when people call Pippen a failure for shooting a low percentage against the Knicks defense that was also ranked number 1 in 94.

Doesn't matter. Still not the same as a #1 defense. If we do #2s, then the 92 Knicks should have been mentioned.

[97 bulls]

Doesn't matter. Still not the same as a #1 defense. If we do #2s, then the 92 Knicks should have been mentioned.

Lol. Then show Jordan's offensive production against the number 1 ranked defense in 96.

[MadDog]

Lol. Then show Jordan's offensive production against the number 1 ranked defense in 96.

Maybe you have trouble reading, but the OP says #1 ranked defenses. Blame Seattle for finishing #2 :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

OP was a legend, dude would constantly make all the Jordan stans cry.

[Manny98]

KD averaged 29 off 50% against the number 1 defense 67 win Spurs in 2016, including a 41 & 37 point performance whilst being guarded by DPOY Kawhi :bowdown:


https://youtu.be/e5T-KNtEFro

So KD is less effected by Top defenses than Jordan suggesting that KD is the better scorer

[MadDog]

KD averaged 29 off 50% against the number 1 defense 67 win Spurs in 2016, including a 41 & 37 point performance whilst being guarded by DPOY Kawhi :bowdown:[/video]

So KD is less effected by Top defenses than Jordan suggesting that KD is the better scorer

Not quite. The sample is from Chicago's title years. If we did seasons outside of those parameters, like you did with Durant, Jordan might've had the BEST series ever. Against the vaunted 86 Celtics (#1 rated defense), MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 51% shooting.

OP was generous and also used Seattle, a #2 defense. :oldlol: Look up what Jordan did to Cleveland and Detroit.

[97 bulls]

Maybe you have trouble reading, but the OP says #1 ranked defenses. Blame Seattle for finishing #2 :confusedshrug:

I get it.The Sonics werent the number 1 ranked defense in 96. They were number 2. All I'm saying is I know why he used the Sonics and not the number 1 defense in the league.

[MadDog]

I get it.The Sonics werent the number 1 ranked defense in 96. They were number 2. All I'm saying is I know why he used the Sonics and not the number 1 defense in the league.

If you're gonna call Jordan "overrated" based on numbers, at least get them right. Using a #2 defense isn't the BEST defense, which was the original intent.

[97 bulls]

If you're gonna call Jordan "overrated" based on numbers, at least get them right. Using a #2 defense isn't the BEST defense, which was the original intent.

You're arguing semantics bro. Olk, ok,. He didn't say EVERY #1 ranked defense. Right?

[MadDog]

You're arguing semantics bro. Olk, ok,. He didn't say EVERY #1 ranked defense. Right?

Not true. Arguing "semantics" is claiming Seattle tied with Chicago. Not the case here. If we start using your logic, then why stop at 2? :confusedshrug: New York rated 3 that year and gave up less points than Seattle. Played at a slower pace too.

[97 bulls]

Not true. Arguing "semantics" is claiming Seattle tied with Chicago. Not the case here. If we start using your logic, then why stop at 2? :confusedshrug: New York rated 3 that year and gave up less points than Seattle. Played at a slower pace too.

Bro. Imma say this and then imma let you have it.

Again you're 100% correct. The Sonics were not the number 1 defense in 96. The Bulls were. But seeing as Jordan was a member of the number 1 ranked team, the next best team was the Sonics. The Sonics were the best defensive team Jordan couldve faced in 96. I think that's why Fatal included the Sonics.

[MadDog]

Bro. Imma say this and then imma let you have it.

Again you're 100% correct. The Sonics were not the number 1 defense in 96. The Bulls were. But seeing as Jordan was a member of the number 1 ranked team, the next best team was the Sonics. The Sonics were the best defensive team Jordan couldve faced in 96. I think that's why Fatal included the Sonics.

I get where you're coming from, and its a fair point. Thing is, teams are ranked for a reason. In this case its defensive efficiency. If we're gonna make excuses and go with "next best" it opens up the gate for other #2s. Like the 92 Knicks for example. A little consistency isn't asking for much. Just saying.

[1987_Lakers]

lol.

[BigShotBob]

vs. Boston, 1986: 44 pts/6 reb/6 ast/51% FG

Boston was the #1 defense and a top 5 team ever.

How quickly they forget

[3ba11]

KD averaged 29 off 50% against the number 1 defense 67 win Spurs in 2016, including a 41 & 37 point performance whilst being guarded by DPOY Kawhi :bowdown:





Huh?

Jordan averaged 31 on 47% against the 89' and 90' Bad Boys that included Rodman and Dumars guarding him - he had 3 forty point games

That's better than dropping 29 in today's spaced-out, hands-off format with open paint- it's a knock on KD that he only averaged 29