How many players can replace MJ on 90's Bulls team and still win 6 titles or more?

[globarticles]

The 90s Bulls was featuring 2 other great talents in Pippen and Grant. Later, Pippen and Rodman. Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take MJ's place on that team and still win at least 6 titles?

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

[bdreason]

Possibly Hakeem, Shaq, and Duncan.

Obviously getting 6 is highly unlikely for anyone though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No one except maybe KAJ. Other players would have success (1-4 titles), but not 6.

[Toizumi]

The (insert championship team) was featuring other great talents in (insert players on championship team). Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take (insert championship team's star player) place on that team.

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

:confusedshrug:

This question can be asked about any championship team. Hakeem had the least help of all finals mvp's..

It's hard to tell though. MJ was awesome.

[iamgine]

Hakeem, Kareem, DRob, Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, Wilt, Moses, Ewing.

[lukekarts]

Wade & Kobe.

[chains5000]

A healthy Yao Ming.:bowdown:

[Anaximandro1]

win 6 titles or more?

Robert Horry :lol

[Alpha Wolf]

Dominique Wilkins

[Lebron23]

Mike James

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

No one. Not that the other players that are mentioned aren't great, but that Bulls team had to have two great wing defenders. And that Bulls team needed Jordan's ability to essentially be the playmaker at times and the closer always. Centers would change the dynamics way too much. There wasn't another guard during Jordan's time that could do what he did. (Still isn't.)

(And the question is 6 titles. I'm sure that several of those guys could win a couple of championships.....)

[plowking]

Shaq Fu be the only one.

No one else.

[plowking]

A healthy Yao Ming.:bowdown:

Oh sh!t forgot him.





:oldlol:

[guy]

The 90s Bulls was featuring 2 other great talents in Pippen and Grant. Later, Pippen and Rodman. Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take MJ's place on that team and still win at least 6 titles?

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

Well you have to base it off a player's 8-year stretch. You can't just assume all of them are the same player for 8 years just like Jordan wasn't. I think someone could've done it if we assume they don't retire for 2 years in the middle. Maybe if you insert a 81-88 Bird or 84-91 Magic, on the 91-98 Bulls in Jordan's place, they could've done it. If they take the 2 year-break, I don't see it happening though. The 93 and 98 supporting casts were just not as good, and I'd say at least one of those they lose. Hakeem just wasn't dominant for that long. Shaq didn't have the motivation. Duncan has had the consistency, but he just hasn't had the dominance for that long. Wilt didn't have the motivation nor the killer instinct. We still have not seen enough of Lebron. Kobe just has not been that great for an 8-year stretch, and I don't think he ever will be. Robinson was soft.

[phoenix18]

A lot of people. He had some awesome teams.

[Fatal9]

The other top 10 players and the # of titles I think they win:

KAJ - 7+
Wilt - 6+
Bird - 6+ (with no back injuries)
Shaq - 5
Duncan - 5
Kobe - 5
Hakeem - 5
Magic - 3
Russell - ?

Think about some of the combinations: Pippen & Bird, Pippen & Kareem :bowdown:

[NBASTATMAN]

The other top 10 players and the # of titles I think they win:

KAJ - 7+
Wilt - 6+
Bird - 6+ (with no back injuries)
Shaq - 5
Duncan - 5
Kobe - 5
Hakeem - 5
Magic - 3
Russell - ?

Think about some of the combinations: Pippen & Bird, Pippen & Kareem :bowdown:


If they did what mj did ... Retire and come back in two years.. Than no other player can do that and win 6.. But if they played the two years mj missed than yea I could see Some guys winning close to 6.. People don't understand how great Mj was... This guy was Kobe type skills with Lebron type dominance .... His PER was always at the top... He provided more than any other player in the league now or ever..


kareem gets six and maybe seven
wilt chokes and gets 3 or 4
bird not going to get by the great defenses,, people forget bird had his problems too bird gets 5
Magic gets close to 6
hakeem gets close to 6
kobe gets 4 if he played smart
Duncan gets 4 or 5

[Revelation]

The 90s Bulls was featuring 2 other great talents in Pippen and Grant. Later, Pippen and Rodman. Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take MJ's place on that team and still win at least 6 titles?

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

The best players (Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Shaq) would probably win the first three (91-93) and possible 1 or 2 of the second three (96-98). Very unlikely that any of them get to 6 unless they play in 94 and 95. Jordan was the perfect fit for the Bulls and the Bulls were a perfect team for Jordan.

Bird: 4-5
Magic: 4-5
Hakeem: 4
Shaq: 4
Duncan: 3-4
Kobe: 3
LeBron: 3
D-Rob:3

[Fatal9]

Kareem and Pippen, provided they are healthy, would have a great chance to sweep the decade (or at least get 7-8 rings, considering Kareem's longevity, good passer too who'd fit very well in the triangle). The 90s elite competition wise were that weak imo. You guys really think the aging '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers (not as good as the '90 ones imo, who got nearly swept by prime Bad boy Pistons), '93 Suns, '97/'98 Jazz, '94 Rockets have ANY shot at winning a single championship, let alone a single finals appearance in the 80s? Seriously, a team with the GOAT removed was still a contender (major credit to Pippen though)!

[Revelation]

Think about some of the combinations: Pippen & Bird, Pippen & Kareem :bowdown:

Pippen & Jordan is better. They complimented each other like few players ever have.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kareem and Pippen, provided they are healthy, would have a great chance to sweep the decade (or at least get 7-8 rings, considering Kareem's longevity, good passer too who'd fit very well in the triangle). The 90s elite competition wise were that weak imo. You guys really think the aging '91 Lakers, '92 Blazers (not as good as the '90 ones imo, who got nearly swept by prime Bad boy Pistons), '93 Suns, '97/'98 Jazz, '94 Rockets have ANY shot at winning a single championship, let alone a single finals appearance in the 80s?


One thing is sure.. Kareem would have to make all the big shots.. Cuz Pippen is probably the least clutch great player I have ever seen.. Now that is a thread..

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen & Jordan is better. They complimented each other like few players ever have.


Defensively Bird would not contribute the way mj did either....

[CantStop]

Kobe.
Wade

Give any great 2 guard a HOF SF, amazing 3 point shooters, great rebounders, great coach and they're gonna win 6.

[Fatal9]

One thing is sure.. Kareem would have to make all the big shots.. Cuz Pippen is probably the least clutch great player I have ever seen.. Now that is a thread..
Kareem has hit several big shots in his careers, in the finals too (game 6, sweeping sky hook in '74). He's a great FT shooter for a big man so he doesn't come with the liabilities of Shaq and Wilt near the end of games.

:oldlol: at Pippen being not clutch. Have you watched the '93 ECF vs. Knicks? Who hit the series clinching three when MJ was 0-7 in the fourth quarter of the elimination game? Who showed up in the series deciding game 3 when MJ went 3-18 (or Bulls go down 0-3)?. EVERYONE was buzzing about Pippen's clutch play in the series.

[lilgodfather1]

Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, Russel, Oscar, LeBron, Wade, Baylor, Wilt. Those are the players that could win 6 or more titles with MJs teams.

LeBron would potentially get 8 (he would only be 32 when they won their last).

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe.
Wade

Give any great 2 guard a HOF SF, amazing 3 point shooters, great rebounders, great coach and they're gonna win 6.


A young Kobe was not efficient enough to win those titles.. Kobe now plays efficiently and smart.. Todays kobe would be efficient enough to win but not six... Wade under the old rules would have alot more problems than Kobe winning because he drives more.. Neither win six though..

[NBASTATMAN]

Kareem has hit several big shots in his careers, in the finals too (game 6, sweeping sky hook in '74). He's a great FT shooter for a big man so he doesn't come with the liabilities of Shaq and Wilt near the end of games.

:oldlol: at Pippen being not clutch. Have you watched the '93 ECF vs. Knicks? Who hit the series clinching three when MJ was 0-7 in the fourth quarter of the elimination game? Who showed up in the series deciding game 3 when MJ went 3-18 (or Bulls go down 0-3)?. EVERYONE was buzzing about Pippen's clutch play in the series.


My goodness.. Pippen actually hit a big shot... So did Lamar in this playoffs ... I still don't think he is clutch... And yes , Pippen had his best series ever in that Knicks series... X was gone and the Knicks had Charles smith who could not stay with pippen..But we all know what happened when Pippen took over the reign over the bulls.. It was Kukoc who took the big shots, and in portland Pippen again choked.. The guy will forever be known as a choker.. How did Portland lose that game seven... Pippen, Smith, DAMON, RASHEED, GRANT, and others.. That team was loaded and still Pippen dissapeared when it mattered most.. If Portland wins that game ,Pippen wins a title on his own... It didn't happen..:hammerhead:

[guy]

Kobe.
Wade

Give any great 2 guard a HOF SF, amazing 3 point shooters, great rebounders, great coach and they're gonna win 6.

LOL, sounds like something Kobe had for about 8 years, except he had a HOF C (which is historically more impactful then a HOF SF + he was a top 10 player ever) instead. And how many does he have? And besides the fact that he isn't as great of a player, you really think Wade would be durable enough to win 6 titles in a more physical era?

[VeeCee15]

No one would win 6 with Jordan's teams get real.

He shot over 50% name me a two guard who can do that?

[Fatal9]

LOL, sounds like something Kobe had for about 8 years, except he had a HOF C (which is historically more impactful then a HOF SF + he was a top 10 player ever) instead. And how many does he have?
Except, during his prime '05 onwards, he has had a good team for only 1.5 years out of 4 years (not to mention injuries/personal scandal robbing him of two potention prime years from '03-'05). Jordan had a great team for 3 of his 4-5 absolute prime years.


No one would win 6 with Jordan's teams get real.

He shot over 50% name me a two guard who can do that?
If you take a real scoring efficiency measure like eFG%, Kobe's playoff scoring efficiency, as #1 option (ie. same age) is virtually even with MJ's during the first three-peat.

[bladefd]

If you take a real scoring efficiency measure like eFG%, Kobe's playoff scoring efficiency, as #1 option (ie. same age) is virtually even with MJ's during the first three-peat.

What is the difference between just normal FG% and eFG%? I know there is a formula that goes with eFG%. Is it also more accurate than FG%??

[Fatal9]

What is the difference between just normal FG% and eFG%? I know there is a formula that goes with eFG%. Is it also more accurate than FG%??
Yes, it takes in to account that three pointers are worth an extra point.

For example, player X shoots 5-10 (all 2 pointers), while player Y shoots 4-10 (all 3 pointers). Which one are you going to take? The one that yielded you 10 points on 10 shots or 12 points on 12 shots?

It takes away the bias that FG% has with big men and midrange type of players (in fact Kobe shoots almost the exact same percentage on 2 pointers as #1 option as MJ did during the first three peat!), and takes in to account that 3 points > 2 points. Some people aren't used to it because it isn't conventional, but it is much much better than FG%.

Here for example are the stats:

MJ's FG% on 2s in the first 3 peat: 50.86%
Kobe's FG% on 2s as #1 option: 50.65%

MJ's eFG% in the first 3 peat: 51.5%
Kobe's eFG% as #1 option: 50.7%

These are in virtually the same # of games and at the same ages too.

[Indian guy]

Only the truly elite big men(Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem) would be able to come close to MJ's # of titles. By that I mean 2-4 titles at most. I don't see the perimeter superstars coming close. The single biggest necessity in this league in order to win championships is great big men. Bulls had solid role players at C/PF, but nothing close to a star. Magic/Bird/Kobe would win no more than 1-3 titles with MJ's cast.

[Rasheed1]

Only the truly elite big men(Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem) would be able to come close to MJ's # of titles. By that I mean 2-4 titles at most. I don't see the perimeter superstars coming close. The single biggest necessity in this league in order to win championships is great big men. Bulls had solid role players at C/PF, but nothing close to a star. Magic/Bird/Kobe would win no more than 1-3 titles with MJ's cast.


+1

I dont think any of those players win six.....

Maybe Bill Russell could do it....

alot of what Jordan did was about leadership and determination IMO.. the only player I can think of in the history of the league to display similar fire and leadership was Russell..

[NBASTATMAN]

Yes, it takes in to account that three pointers are worth an extra point.

For example, player X shoots 5-10 (all 2 pointers), while player Y shoots 4-10 (all 3 pointers). Which one are you going to take? The one that yielded you 10 points on 10 shots or 12 points on 12 shots?

It takes away the bias that FG% has with big men and midrange type of players (in fact Kobe shoots almost the exact same percentage on 2 pointers as #1 option as MJ did during the first three peat!), and takes in to account that 3 points > 2 points. Some people aren't used to it because it isn't conventional, but it is much much better than FG%.

Here for example are the stats:

MJ's FG% on 2s in the first 3 peat: 50.86%
Kobe's FG% on 2s as #1 option: 50.65%

MJ's eFG% in the first 3 peat: 51.5%
Kobe's eFG% as #1 option: 50.7%

These are in virtually the same # of games and at the same ages too.


What were his numbers before the no touch rules came into effect? I doubt they are even close.. Mj won those titles under the old rules.. HUGE DIFFERENCE.. Imagine Mj vs those Suns teams that Kobe got to go against in 06-07 playoffs... :lol

[Fatal9]

Only the truly elite big men(Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem) would be able to come close to MJ's # of titles. By that I mean 2-4 titles at most. I don't see the perimeter superstars coming close. The single biggest necessity in this league in order to win championships is great big men. Bulls had solid role players at C/PF, but nothing close to a star. Magic/Bird/Kobe would win no more than 1-3 titles with MJ's cast.
:oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Except, during his prime '05 onwards, he has had a good team for only 1.5 years out of 4 years (not to mention injuries/personal scandal robbing him of two potention prime years from '03-'05). Jordan had a great team for 3 of his 4-5 absolute prime years.


If you take a real scoring efficiency measure like eFG%, Kobe's playoff scoring efficiency, as #1 option (ie. same age) is virtually even with MJ's during the first three-peat.



Kobe had two years of playing with bad teammates.. Poor Kobe.. Lebron has had sucky teammates for 6 years now.. :lol Kobe went to a team that already was winning like 50 plus games.. It still took them four years to win a a title with Shaq dominating..

[plowking]

Yes, it takes in to account that three pointers are worth an extra point.

For example, player X shoots 5-10 (all 2 pointers), while player Y shoots 4-10 (all 3 pointers). Which one are you going to take? The one that yielded you 10 points on 10 shots or 12 points on 12 shots?

It takes away the bias that FG% has with big men and midrange type of players (in fact Kobe shoots almost the exact same percentage on 2 pointers as #1 option as MJ did during the first three peat!), and takes in to account that 3 points > 2 points. Some people aren't used to it because it isn't conventional, but it is much much better than FG%.

Here for example are the stats:

MJ's FG% on 2s in the first 3 peat: 50.86%
Kobe's FG% on 2s as #1 option: 50.65%

MJ's eFG% in the first 3 peat: 51.5%
Kobe's eFG% as #1 option: 50.7%

These are in virtually the same # of games and at the same ages too.

:oldlol:

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Only a huge homer would stray away from the real numbers and look at such stats.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe's effective fg percentage before the no touch rules are not that good..

.. MANU GINOBOLI THE only other two guard who plays at a high level in the west and also has gone deep in the playoffs blows kobe away in EFFECTIVE FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE since the no touch rules came into effect.. Wade in his two last healthy season is also close to Kobe.. The new rules really have helped all players..

[guy]

Except, during his prime '05 onwards, he has had a good team for only 1.5 years out of 4 years (not to mention injuries/personal scandal robbing him of two potention prime years from '03-'05). Jordan had a great team for 3 of his 4-5 absolute prime years.


Okay, Jordan had the gambling scandal, which isn't as worse, but it was a scandal and I wouldn't go as far to say he was robbed, just like Kobe wasn't. Its not like Kobe was sitting in jail during that time. And seriously, its not like that isn't partly Kobe's fault. Thats just a stupid excuse. I've never heard Kobe make that excuse for losing that year, just like I haven't heard Jordan say something like "I would have more titles if I didn't retire for those two years." And all you're saying with the injuries is that Kobe wasn't as durable as Jordan, plus its not like the guy didn't play over the majority of the season and the playoffs, when they made it.

And yes, Jordan had a great team for 3 of 5 of his best years. Kobe so far has had it for 2 of 4 of his best years, which isn't much of a difference, and next year will also probably be one of his best years, which means 3 of 5 like Jordan. Jordan also played like one of the greatest players ever before his prime (85-87) and after his prime (96-98). If Jordan was on the road Kobe had, he would've won probably 6-7 titles in the 8 years he played with Shaq, and he wouldn't have had the whole problem of being the 2nd best player to Shaq, cause an 85-92 Jordan was much greater then a 97-04 Kobe, and for many of those years he would've been Shaq's equal or better. And even an old 96-97 Jordan would've won titles with the Lakers of 08-09, cause even he was better then the Kobe of the past 2 years.

So anyway, prime doesn't really mean anything, when almost every version of Jordan was better then every version of Kobe, and Jordan was better then Kobe at every stage of their careers, of course besides the years he was retired.

[Allstar24]

I guess any elite shooting guard. How are we supposed to know this?

[Indian guy]

:oldlol: @ anyone who believes the GREATS are touching MJ's 6 championships within the same time period as his. After the Game 7 loss to Detroit in 1990, MJ never LOST. Once he had a good enough cast around him, he ended every season he started as a CHAMPION. Pretty much won 6 straight championships(could've been 8). Compare that to the other Top 10 players who failed with great teams around them. Magic lost 4 Finals, Bird 2, Shaq 2, Kobe 2, Kareem 3. Plus think of all the pre-Finals exits too. MJ's the only one who NEVER lost with a good enough team around him. Everybody else failed a BUNCH of times. This is why I :oldlol: @ anyone who thinks the BEST CASE SCENARIO for any Top 10 great within that 6-7 year period is more than 3-4 championships. And the only ones who'll be able to accomplish that is the big men. Good luck to the perimeter superstars trying to win 1 without anything resembling a low post threat.

[indiefan23]

The 90s Bulls was featuring 2 other great talents in Pippen and Grant. Later, Pippen and Rodman. Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take MJ's place on that team and still win at least 6 titles?

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

I don't think anyone who was not a dominant big man. Thats really what was so special about MJ and what Kobe found out after Shaq left. Winning in the NBA with a dominant center is freaking near impossible.

Hmm... Lebron might have been able to pull it off after the defensive step up he took this season. This is a pretty interesting post. Could Lebron have done it? I think it really depends on how he responds to facing 'real' defenses. Which is really the other thing thats so special about MJ winning without a center. He beat the Knicks... and no body should have done that the way he did from the 2. Its bloody ridiculous.

[indiefan23]

I guess any elite shooting guard. How are we supposed to know this?

That's the most thinly veiled attempt to suggest Kobe is >= MJ I've ever seen. ;0

[indiefan23]

+1

I dont think any of those players win six.....

Maybe Bill Russell could do it....

alot of what Jordan did was about leadership and determination IMO.. the only player I can think of in the history of the league to display similar fire and leadership was Russell..

Thats a big massive LOL. Why would Bill Russel be able to win 6???? Like, do you have a reason beyond 'he won a lot of rings in the 50's and 60's'?

[Peter Griffin]

Bird
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Kobe

Thats about it!

[Jacks3]

LOL at Gasol being called a 'dominant' player...:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

Kobe.
Wade

Give any great 2 guard a HOF SF, amazing 3 point shooters, great rebounders, great coach and they're gonna win 6.
:roll:

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: @ anyone who believes the GREATS are touching MJ's 6 championships within the same time period as his. After the Game 7 loss to Detroit in 1990, MJ never LOST. Once he had a good enough cast around him, he ended every season he started as a CHAMPION. Pretty much won 6 straight championships(could've been 8). Compare that to the other Top 10 players who failed with great teams around them. Magic lost 4 Finals, Bird 2, Shaq 2, Kobe 2, Kareem 3. Plus think of all the pre-Finals exits too. MJ's the only one who NEVER lost with a good enough team around him. Everybody else failed a BUNCH of times. This is why I :oldlol: @ anyone who thinks the BEST CASE SCENARIO for any Top 10 great within that 6-7 year period is more than 3-4 championships. And the only ones who'll be able to accomplish that is the big men. Good luck to the perimeter superstars trying to win 1 without anything resembling a low post threat.
Wow :oldlol:.You are such a groupie it is mind boggling. Even oldschoolbball, wouldn't go to the lengths you did in this post. Absolutely no sense of context in that post at all.

:oldlol: at this alleged Bulls fan who supports/defends the Hue Hollins call.

[Rasheed1]

Thats a big massive LOL. Why would Bill Russel be able to win 6???? Like, do you have a reason beyond 'he won a lot of rings in the 50's and 60's'?

welll maybe the obvious reason :confusedshrug:

he won 11. some as a coach and some as a player......

he obviously has the winning thing down...

why do you think not?

11 titles not enough for you?

[beau_boy04]

Kareem, Pippen and Grant/Rodman would have been very dominant

[NBASTATMAN]

Bird
Magic
Wilt
Kareem
Kobe

Thats about it!


WHAT A JOKE... Kobe should not be on that list.. Magic may win but he wasn't as consistent as Mj either.. Magic like Kobe had his major ****ups in the playoffs...

[Slam13]

Why isn't BruceBlitz in this thread :confusedshrug:

[D-Rose]

WHAT A JOKE... Kobe should not be on that list.. Magic may win but he wasn't as consistent as Mj either.. Magic like Kobe had his major ****ups in the playoffs...
I don't see why not.

If you replace Kobe onto that very Bulls team it's 2-3 titles IMO.

They won 55 games without Jordan and made it to the 2nd round.

What makes you think adding the 2nd Greatest SG of all time wouldn't give them a push? Not to mention, Kobe knows Phil's system and Kobe/Pippen would be really nice.

[NBASTATMAN]

Wow :oldlol:.You are such a groupie it is mind boggling. Even oldschoolbball, wouldn't go to the lengths you did in this post. Absolutely no sense of context in that post at all.

:oldlol: at this alleged Bulls fan who supports/defends the Hue Hollins call.


First Hugh Hollins call was a correct call.. But it shouldn't have been made is the thing people say... Check the replay. Pippen fouls him.. If Mj is on that team that call isn't made.. I BELIEVE THAT...

As for who can win six.. Kareem is the only guy that I am sure of.. Wilt choked on many occcasions, Magic and Pippen pretty much did the same thing so they wouldn't win all six in six years, kobe is up and down so he is lucky to get four.. If Bird is healthy than I can see him maybe winning six... Russell is a hard one.. Since he played a long time ago.. Hakeem is the only other guy besides Kareem that I think would win six... If he stayed healthy... Hakeem and Pippen would have been just as deadly as mj.. But if Pippen doesn't play with MJ does he ever become the great player that he became? I doubt it..

[NBASTATMAN]

I don't see why not.

If you replace Kobe onto that very Bulls team it's 2-3 titles IMO.

They won 55 games without Jordan and made it to the 2nd round.

What makes you think adding the 2nd Greatest SG of all time wouldn't give them a push? Not to mention, Kobe knows Phil's system and Kobe/Pippen would be really nice.

I would give up to 4 of the six titles.. That is being generous..

[Fatal9]

WHAT A JOKE... Kobe should not be on that list.. Magic may win but he wasn't as consistent as Mj either.. Magic like Kobe had his major ****ups in the playoffs...
Kobe from ages 27-33 would win the following years as the #1 guy:

'91
tough call on '92 and '93, would probably take one
'94 (quite easily)
'95 (assuming Grant stays, if not, then Bulls lose)
'96
'97

If he doesn't fall of too hard after 32-33 (ie. Kobe next year around this time), then probably would take '98 too.

[Butters]

Nobody.

[Rasheed1]

kobe is not beating the Suns with Barkley....

Kobe is beating Karl Malone's Jazz neither time......

I guess he could take an old magic and the lakers

I dont know about the supersonics though....

he wouldnt have been able to top the blazers with Drexler and ainge either

[Fatal9]

Kobe is beating Karl Malone's Jazz neither time......
:oldlol:

You realize, Jazz were one of the worst f*cking defenses to ever make the finals, right? No shot blocking, no great perimeter defenders. He is at least matching MJ's scoring production if he is 1-2 years younger (ie. around 32, which is what he will be next year, no one knows how well he will play around 34 though).

Kobe isn't capable of putting up 33/4/2 on 42.7%? Because that's all it took to beat the Jazz in '98.

Seriously, MJ has become the most overrated player on these forums.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe from ages 27-33 would win the following years as the #1 guy:

'91
tough call on '92 and '93, would probably take one
'94 (quite easily)
'95 (assuming Grant stays, if not, then Bulls lose)
'96
'97

If he doesn't fall of too hard after 32-33 (ie. Kobe next year around this time), then probably would take '98 too.

`
ok so you are talking about playing all 8 years... Sure Kobe wins at least 4.. Possibly 5 if he plays all 8 years.. But I am talking about a prime kobe.. Not a young kobe.. I don't know about giving kobe all this credit.. I have only seen him play smart for about 2 of his many playoff years. But I feel generous today..

[NBASTATMAN]

LOL at Gasol being called a 'dominant' player...:oldlol:


JACKS YOU ARE ALWAYS :lol AT gasol.. The guy dominated in the playoffs.. 19 PTS 10 REB 2 BLKS A GAME ON 57 PERCENT SHOOTING IS DAMN DOMINANT.. Not like shaq or kobe.. But damn the guy was great..

[Rasheed1]

:oldlol:

You realize, Jazz were one of the worst f*cking defenses to ever make the finals, right? No shot blocking, no great perimeter defenders. He is at least matching MJ's scoring production if he is 1-2 years younger (ie. around 32, which is what he will be next year, no one knows how well he will play around 34 though).

Kobe isn't capable of putting up 33/4/2 on 42.7%? Because that's all it took to beat the Jazz in '98.

Seriously, MJ has become the most overrated player on these forums.

I saw the jazz play.. I know what they were capable of. jazz were simply too disciplined... Kobe would have been jacking up unnecessary 3's and they would have lost both series....

kobe doesnt involve his teammates enough to beat a team like the Jazz with Stockton & Malone, Hornecek, and the others...

[guy]

Kobe from ages 27-33 would win the following years as the #1 guy:

'91
tough call on '92 and '93, would probably take one
'94 (quite easily)
'95 (assuming Grant stays, if not, then Bulls lose)
'96
'97

If he doesn't fall of too hard after 32-33 (ie. Kobe next year around this time), then probably would take '98 too.

You're making it seem like the Bulls just ran right through everyone during that time. They didn't. If you switch Jordan with Kobe, the difference is significant enough that they lose to teams such as the Knicks, Jazz, Pacers, or Blazers. If we're talking about Kobe starting at 27 I would guess like this:

91 - Win
92 - Lose to Knicks or Blazers.
93 - Lose to Knicks.
94 - Win
95 - Lose to Magic. If we're talking about exactly how the teams were, then Grant is gone, so they lose.
96 - Win
97 - Win (In both 96 and 97, Bulls were all-time great teams, so I don't think the difference between a 32-33 Kobe and 33-34 Jordan is that much greater that they lose.)
98 - Lose to Pacers or Jazz (A 30-year old Kobe is around the level of a 35-year old Jordan. A 34-year old Kobe won't be anywhere near that. And this was clearly the weakest Bulls team with how old they were, and it showed in the playoffs. )

Kobe would have 4 titles IMO if he played in most of his best years with that squad. If we had Kobe's career line up with Jordan's career, where a 1997-2010 Kobe played on the Bulls from 1985-1998 in place of Jordan (so a 7th season Kobe (2003) would play on the 1991 Bulls just like a 7th season Jordan did), I think they win about 3 titles. On the other hand, like I said before, Jordan in the same scenario on Kobe's teams probably wins close to 10 titles.

[D-Rose]

I saw the jazz play.. I know what they were capable of. jazz were simply too disciplined... Kobe would have been jacking up unnecessary 3's and they would have lost both series....

kobe doesnt involve his teammates enough to beat a team like the Jazz with Stockton & Malone, Hornecek, and the others...
Wow, I guess someone didn't watch the playoffs :oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Seriously, MJ has become the most overrated player on these forums.
True, just after the likes of Bryant and Pippen.

This being whilst the likes of Chamberlain, Sabonis, & Nowtizki be underrated.

[Rasheed1]

Wow, I guess someone didn't watch the playoffs :oldlol:


I have watched kobe since he came into the league... I have seen the difference between Kobe and Mj.....

like someone just said.... the bulls werent blowing thru these teams....

just putting kobe's probable box score stat line up there isnt enough to predict who would win because there were plenty of clutch moments that dont show up in the stat line....

some of things Jordan did in those series are things that kobe is not capable of doing...

he beat the magic....... great team this year and all

but

97-98 Jazz >>Better than the 2009 Magic

somebody must not have seen the bulls vs. Jazz in the finals :confusedshrug:

[Cyclone112]

Holy ****, Fatal9 takes a few days off trolling and just flips the switch and is right back at it. Die already.

[NBASTATMAN]

True, just after the likes of Bryant and Pippen.

This being whilst the likes of Chamberlain, Sabonis, & Nowtizki be underrated.



EXCELLENT POST...

[Fatal9]

True, just after the likes of Bryant and Pippen.
How can Bryant be overrated when after accomplishing all that he has, people still rank players like Dr. J, Robertson above him in all-time rankings? :confusedshrug:

Disagree on Pippen being overrated. Agreed on Wilt/Dirk being underrated.



93 - Lose to Knicks.

Lose to the Suns maybe. But the Knicks? If Scottie plays the way he did? All Kobe has to do is show up.



kobe doesnt involve his teammates enough to beat a team like the Jazz with Stockton & Malone, Hornecek, and the others...
LOL. What about Michael "2 assists per game" Jordan?

[Abraham Lincoln]

How can Bryant be overrated when after accomplishing all that he has, people still rank players like Dr. J, Robertson above him in all-time rankings? :confusedshrug:


Posters such as yourself.

[guy]

How can Bryant be overrated when after accomplishing all that he has, people still rank players like Dr. J, Robertson above him in all-time rankings? :confusedshrug:

Disagree on Pippen being overrated. Agreed on Wilt being underrated.


Lose to the Suns maybe. But the Knicks? If Scottie plays the way he did? All Kobe has to do is show up.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. In the 4 wins against the Knicks, Jordan had a near triple-double, a 54 point game, an actual triple double, and a near double-double. And you're acting like all Jordan did was show up. He shot badly, but he effected the game in other ways, which is something he is much more prone to do then Kobe ever has been, which is 1 of the big differences between the two.

[Fatal9]

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. In the 4 wins against the Knicks, Jordan had a near triple-double, a 54 point game, an actual triple double, and a near double-double. And you're acting like all Jordan did was show up. He shot badly, but he effected the game in other ways, which is something he is much more prone to do then Kobe ever has been, which is 1 of the big differences between the two.
What's with this "wins" nonsense? Stats in the first two games don't count? You know the ones where he had 6 assists total in the two games? The games the Bulls lost? :oldlol: at a "near double double" game with him shooting like 8-25 being painted as a decent game.

If Kobe has even a decent series say something like 28/6/6 on 45%, Bulls win in 5 or 6. Pippen was unbelievable.

[NBASTATMAN]

Posters such as yourself.


ANOTHER GREAT POST....

[NBASTATMAN]

You clearly don't know what you're talking about. In the 4 wins against the Knicks, Jordan had a near triple-double, a 54 point game, an actual triple double, and a near double-double. And you're acting like all Jordan did was show up. He shot badly, but he effected the game in other ways, which is something he is much more prone to do then Kobe ever has been, which is 1 of the big differences between the two.


I was about to write something similar.. But you beat me to it..

[Fatal9]

Posters such as yourself.
Who aren't even fans of the player they allegedly overrate? :confusedshrug:

[Abraham Lincoln]

ANOTHER GREAT POST....
Tis glorious and gratifying to witness the creedence of the wise man become a kindred spirit in all the aspiring wise men and noblemen alike.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Who aren't even fans of the player they allegedly overrate? :confusedshrug:
http://www.etonline.com/media/photo/2008/01/39161/400_oscar_statue.jpg

[NBASTATMAN]

What's with this "wins" nonsense? Stats in the first two games don't count? You know the ones where he had 6 assists total in the two games? The games the Bulls lost? :oldlol: at a "near double double" game with him shooting like 8-25 being painted as a decent game.

If Kobe has even a decent series say something like 28/6/6 on 45%, Bulls win in 5 or 6. Pippen was unbelievable.


When has Kobe had a series with those numbers vs a great defensive team.. He played great vs the SPURS in 01 but Derek anderson was injured.. Besides that series I am not sure if he has ever put up those numbers vs a great defensive team..

[NBASTATMAN]

http://www.etonline.com/media/photo/2008/01/39161/400_oscar_statue.jpg


:roll:

[Fatal9]

When has Kobe had a decent series with those numbers vs a great defensive team.. He played great vs the SPURS in 01 but Derek anderson was injured.. Besides that series I am not sure if he has ever put up those numbers vs a great defensive team..
Spurs last year? #2 defense in the league, year removed from humiliating Lebron in finals :confusedshrug:

Magic this year? Not great shooting wise but he had a "near double double" in 4 games and "near triple double in 2". Celtics are really the only one he played poorly against, his teammates shot horribly in that series and the same team also embarassed Lebron.

[NBASTATMAN]

Spurs last year? #2 defense in the league, year removed from humiliating Lebron in finals :confusedshrug:

Magic this year? Not great shooting wise but he had a "near double double" in 4 games and "near triple double in 2". Celtics are really the only one he played poorly against, his teammates shot horribly in that series and the same team also embarassed Lebron.


Are you talking about the Spurs with a one legged MANU... He is a good defender and he was hurt.. Bruce was over aged and CP3 KILLED THAT SAME DEFENSE... Sorry try again..

Didn't Lebron kill that same Orlando defense..

[Fatal9]

Are you talking about the Spurs with a one legged MANU... He is a good defender and he was hurt.. Bruce was over aged and CP3 KILLED THAT SAME DEFENSE... Sorry try again..

Didn't Lebron kill that same Orlando defense..
Didn't Reggie Miller kill that same Knick defense that year? And didn't he drop something like 25 points in the fourth quarter in the following year?

[NBASTATMAN]

CP3 vs the same Spurs defense..

24 pts on 50 percent shooting 10.7 ass only 2.3 turnovers a game and 4.4 rebounds a game..

That is almost a 5 to 1 Assist to turnover ratio.. He had no PAU GASOL or even a Lamar odom playing next to him..

Those are some crazy numbers, Manu was hurt...

[NBASTATMAN]

Didn't Reggie Miller kill that same Knick defense that year? And didn't he drop something like 25 points in the fourth quarter in the following year?


GOTTA CHECK THAT ..Yes he did put up some great scoring numbers but not assists. Reggie had 11 assists and 10 turnovers.. Mj had a much better assist to turnover ratio..

[guy]

What's with this "wins" nonsense? Stats in the first two games don't count? You know the ones where he had 6 assists total in the two games?

The games the Bulls lost? :oldlol: at a "near double double" game with him shooting like 8-25 being painted as a decent game.



Ummm, I wasn't trying to ignore the other two games. I pointed out the wins to show you that Jordan CLEARLY contributed greatly to the Bulls winning that series as opposed to just showing up like you stated. I didn't talk about the his performance in the losses because it was irrelevant to them winning in the series. My point was Jordan clearly had a huge impact to them winning the series as opposed to none at all. If I was going to assess his overall performance, which was not good by most great player's standards, then I would've included his performance in the losses, but I wasn't.



If Kobe has even a decent series say something like 28/6/6 on 45%, Bulls win in 5 or 6. Pippen was unbelievable.

Considering that Kobe rarely plays great against defenses in the playoffs as good as the 93 Knicks, is not as great of an all-around player, and does not attack the basket as much meaning less FTAs, I doubt they win that series. The Bulls probably still go down 0-2, and Kobe rolls over and dies either before or after they lose game 3 or 4.

[Da_Realist]

You're making it seem like the Bulls just ran right through everyone during that time. They didn't. If you switch Jordan with Kobe, the difference is significant enough that they lose to teams such as the Knicks, Jazz, Pacers, or Blazers. If we're talking about Kobe starting at 27 I would guess like this:

91 - Win
92 - Lose to Knicks or Blazers.
93 - Lose to Knicks.
94 - Win
95 - Lose to Magic. If we're talking about exactly how the teams were, then Grant is gone, so they lose.
96 - Win
97 - Win (In both 96 and 97, Bulls were all-time great teams, so I don't think the difference between a 32-33 Kobe and 33-34 Jordan is that much greater that they lose.)
98 - Lose to Pacers or Jazz (A 30-year old Kobe is around the level of a 35-year old Jordan. A 34-year old Kobe won't be anywhere near that. And this was clearly the weakest Bulls team with how old they were, and it showed in the playoffs. )

Kobe would have 4 titles IMO if he played in most of his best years with that squad. If we had Kobe's career line up with Jordan's career, where a 1997-2010 Kobe played on the Bulls from 1985-1998 in place of Jordan (so a 7th season Kobe (2003) would play on the 1991 Bulls just like a 7th season Jordan did), I think they win about 3 titles. On the other hand, like I said before, Jordan in the same scenario on Kobe's teams probably wins close to 10 titles.

I've seen Kobe quit and shoot his team out of series. This goes beyond the box score. And Kobe has never had the defensive impact as Jordan did. So even if Kobe can match Jordan's stats, he couldn't match Jordan's impact. Kobe finally wins it as the top dog and he still only shoots 43% against a team Lebron KILLED in the round before. His 43% actually raised his Finals fg%! :eek:

No. This is too generous. He doesn't beat the Knicks in 92 or 93. He doesn't stand up to the X-Man to protect his teammate in 92. He doesn't provide the all-around impact that Jordan did (even if he can match his statistical output) in 93 versus the Knicks. And I'm sorry but I think Kobe shoots even worse against that defense due to a combination of great D and Kobe's own selfish boneheaded-ness. He shot 43% against the Magic for crying out loud.

Does anyone remember Olajuwon during the 94 and 95 season? Can we give him some credit? Yes I know Chicago took the Knicks to 7 and the Knicks took the Rockets to 7. But you can't just add in Kobe's supposed numbers and say they'd win just because. What if Kobe doesn't feel like playing in the second half in a couple of those games (as he's done in the past)?. What if he doesn't feel like playing defense (another characteristic)? What if his productivity decreases due to the physicality? And who on that Bulls team would respect Kobe as the leader? I see all sorts of issues and beyond that, Pippen isn't the same player if you replace Jordan with Kobe. They don't beat Houston with Olajuwon playing like he was. In fact, I think Chicago and Houston would probably split the two years even if Jordan was playing at the top of his game.

etc, etc, etc.

I'm not sure how many he'd win, but it sure as hell wouldn't be six. And I think NBASTATMAN is too generous. I don't even think it would be four.

[nnn123]

Very few players could have the longevity to win 6 rings like that, IMO.

Everyone is so obsessed with this "55 wins" stuff, it's hilarious. Like you could just add any scrub to that team and they would win the title. First of all, the bulls won 55 games in 1994, not 1991 1992 or 1993. The players were all developing those years, its safe to say Scottie/Grant weren't the same players in 1991 and 1994. So that's nonsense. Second, it sounds reasonable to say that "add any good player to a 55 win team and they win the championship" but what you got to take into consideration is the TEAMS they played against. Even *with* Jordan, some of these teams took the Bulls to the limit - the knicks, blazers, suns, etc. So how am I supposed to believe if you replace a worse player than Jordan on those teams, they're still guaranteed to win??? Stop thinking about this "55 wins" stuff, think about THAT, because 1994 was a whole different season.

The Bulls won 55 games in 94, what does that tell you? Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Phil Jackson are underrated, they deserve a lot of credit, and Jordan had exceptional teammates. But that's about it. You can't just add any elite SG in Jordan's place and get the same results.

[NBASTATMAN]

Didn't Reggie Miller kill that same Knick defense that year? And didn't he drop something like 25 points in the fourth quarter in the following year?


I am still waiting for a series in which Kobe shot over 45 percent and avg the numbers you wrote about... Mj had a bad series vs that knicks team.. But he helped by having a good amount of assists and a good assist to turnover ratio..

I could write about Kobe having more turnovers than assists in 2003 vs the Spurs in the playoffs.. Or his 42 percent shooting in that series.. Or the fact that Kobe had a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio vs the SUNS in both 2006 and 2007.. Turnovers are just as bad as missed shots.. They are actually worse..

[gotbacon23]

GOTTA CHECK THAT .. I think that was 2004..

1994 was the right year. though he only shot 43% for the entire 7 game series (40% if you don't count that one game) and he didn't contribute at all in other ways (2 rebounds and 2 assists per game). pacers as a whole shot 44% for that series... which isn't terrible but isn't great either. that knicks defense was ridiculously good.

[NBASTATMAN]

Very few players could have the longevity to win 6 rings like that, IMO.

Everyone is so obsessed with this "55 wins" stuff, it's hilarious. Like you could just add any scrub to that team and they would win the title. First of all, the bulls won 55 games in 1994, not 1991 1992 or 1993. The players were all developing those years, its safe to say Scottie/Grant weren't the same players in 1991 and 1994. So that's nonsense. Second, it sounds reasonable to say that "add any good player to a 55 win team and they win the championship" but what you got to take into consideration is the TEAMS they played against. Even *with* Jordan, some of these teams took the Bulls to the limit - the knicks, blazers, suns, etc. So how am I supposed to believe if you replace a worse player than Jordan on those teams, they're still guaranteed to win??? Stop thinking about this "55 wins" stuff, think about THAT, because 1994 was a whole different season.

The Bulls won 55 games in 94, what does that tell you? Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Phil Jackson are underrated, they deserve a lot of credit, and Jordan had exceptional teammates. But that's about it. You can't just add any elite SG in Jordan's place and get the same results.


THE LAKERS ADDED SHAQ AND KOBE IN 1996 AND WON 56 GAMES.. The year before they won 53 games... THERE GOES THAT .... KOBE AND SHAQ WERE WORTH 3 GAMES COMBINED.. LOL

Let me also point out that the LAKERS GOT Shaq for nothing... Kobe for VLADE.... LOL.. WHERE YOU GUYS AT..?

[lolwut]

people act like they didn't watch MJ play basketball at the highest level we've ever seen before and still had to reach down deep to pull out a few of the series'

there probably isn't another player since Jordan that could have stepped in and gone 6 for 6 in finals appearances

I'm thinking MAYBE Duncan and Shaq

very, very, speculative tho...more than likely nobody.

[Da_Realist]

NBASTATMAN is destroying this thread. :oldlol: Always like reading your posts.

[NBASTATMAN]

NBASTATMAN is destroying this thread. :oldlol: Always like reading your posts.


THANK YOU.. THANK YOU... :cheers:

[gotbacon23]

THE LAKERS ADDED SHAQ AND KOBE IN 1996 AND WON 56 GAMES.. The year before they won 53 games... THERE GOES THAT .... KOBE AND SHAQ WERE WORTH 3 GAMES COMBINED.. LOL

Let me also point out that the LAKERS GOT Shaq for nothing... Kobe for VLADE.... LOL.. WHERE YOU GUYS AT..?

people tend to forget that the '93 bulls were gassed from the long 1991 and 1992 seasons and jordan and pippen participating in the 1992 dream team.

had jordan not retired, the 1994 bulls would have been much better than the 1993 bulls... they added toni kukoc, luc longley and bill wennington (who, while not great, were definitely an upgrade over old bill cartwright and crappy will perdue), and steve kerr. also, by scoring margin that '94 bulls team was really on pace to be a 50 win team, and that '93 team was on pace to be a 58 win team.

regardless, it wasn't just as simple as "the bulls won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, and won 55 games the next season" its more like "a tired bulls team won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, got better rest over the off-season for pippen, added toni kukoc, luc longley, bill wennington, and steve kerr and won 55 games the next season"

[NuggetsFan]

Kobe from ages 27-33 would win the following years as the #1 guy:

'91
tough call on '92 and '93, would probably take one
'94 (quite easily)
'95 (assuming Grant stays, if not, then Bulls lose)
'96
'97

If he doesn't fall of too hard after 32-33 (ie. Kobe next year around this time), then probably would take '98 too.


Your dickriding is pretty scary:ohwell:


Hard to say, Don't think anyone would hit 6. But Hakeem\Shaq other elite big men would probably come the closest IMO.

[NBASTATMAN]

people tend to forget that the '93 bulls were gassed from the long 1991 and 1992 seasons and jordan and pippen participating in the 1992 dream team.

had jordan not retired, the 1994 bulls would have been much better than the 1993 bulls... they added toni kukoc, luc longley and bill wennington (who, while not great, were definitely an upgrade over old bill cartwright and crappy will perdue), and steve kerr. also, by scoring margin that '94 bulls team was really on pace to be a 50 win team, and that '93 team was on pace to be a 58 win team.

regardless, it wasn't just as simple as "the bulls won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, and won 55 games the next season" its more like "a tired bulls team won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, got better rest over the off-season for pippen, added toni kukoc, luc longley, bill wennington, and steve kerr and won 55 games the next season"


YEP.. They use 57 wins vs 55 wins.. They forget Scottie had tendinitis in his ankle that whole season.. They forget both Mj and Pip played the whole summer that year.. They also forget that same bull team won 67 in 92... A team that added kukoc and Myers won 12 less games than the healthy 92 team... HEY KOBE AND SHAQ ONLY ADDED 3 GAMES IN 96..:lol

[Da_Realist]

people tend to forget that the '93 bulls were gassed from the long 1991 and 1992 seasons and jordan and pippen participating in the 1992 dream team.

had jordan not retired, the 1994 bulls would have been much better than the 1993 bulls... they added toni kukoc, luc longley and bill wennington (who, while not great, were definitely an upgrade over old bill cartwright and crappy will perdue), and steve kerr. also, by scoring margin that '94 bulls team was really on pace to be a 50 win team, and that '93 team was on pace to be a 58 win team.

regardless, it wasn't just as simple as "the bulls won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, and won 55 games the next season" its more like "a tired bulls team won 57 games, subtracted michael jordan, got better rest over the off-season for pippen, added toni kukoc, luc longley, bill wennington, and steve kerr and won 55 games the next season"

True. Plus the 93 team were 2-time defending champions and had a huge bulls-eye on their back. The league was itching to knock them off. In 94, although they were technically 3-time champs, no one expected them to make much noise without Jordan. They essentially played pressure-free the whole season. In fact, all the pressure shifted to New York -- who EVERYONE expected to finally beat the Bulls and get to the Finals. That's another factor that gets lost in the playoff matchup that year, New York was playing against the Bulls AND high expectations.

[Roundball_Rock]

A lot of people. He had some awesome teams.

The guys listed in the OP could not match Jordan's winning even with much more talented teams than the 90's Bulls. If, say, Magic batted barely above .500 (5-4) in the NBA finals with his stacked teams what makes people think he would go 6-0 or 6-2 with the 90's Bulls?


yes , Pippen had his best series ever in that Knicks series...

:oldlol:

Here is one that was better: Pippen almost averaged a triple double in the 93' finals (21/9/8).


Does anyone remember Olajuwon during the 94 and 95 season?

Yeah, I remember him going 1-2 against the Bulls when Pippen played and the Bulls lost by only 7 in the game without Pip. The 94' Bulls as they existed could have beaten the Rockets. Add another superstar to the team and they easily would.


True. Plus the 93 team were 2-time defending champions and had a huge bulls-eye on their back. The league was itching to knock them off. In 94, although they were technically 3-time champs, no one expected them to make much noise without Jordan. They essentially played pressure-free the whole season. In fact, all the pressure shifted to New York -- who EVERYONE expected to finally beat the Bulls and get to the Finals. That's another factor that gets lost in the playoff matchup that year, New York was playing against the Bulls AND high expectations.

No pressure??? Pippen and Jackson had a lot of pressure to "prove" they could win without MJ.

A lot of MJ fans claim the 94' Bulls flew under the radar of other teams. In order to truly believe that you have to believe NBA players and coaches are morons. The Bulls started the season 5-7 but went on a 14-1 tear when Pippen came back. You would have to be a moron to not view the Bulls as legit contender at that point. However, according to several MJ fans, the 94' Bulls were in the battle for the #1 seed in the East for basically the entire year but no one noticed them...

[chitownsfinest]

The 94 Bulls did have pressure on them as they wanted to prove they can win without MJ and Pip wanted to shed the alleged choker label because people were doubting his ability to rise in big moments due to some games in the 93 finals where he did not show up in the 4th/ot (game 3 and game 6). The Bulls that season did beneit from having a underdog menatalitiy since everyone doubted them and they were out to prove something.

[NBASTATMAN]

The guys listed in the OP could not match Jordan's winning even with much more talented teams than the 90's Bulls. If, say, Magic batted barely above .500 (5-4) in the NBA finals with his stacked teams what makes people think he would go 6-0 or 6-2 with the 90's Bulls?



:oldlol:

Here is one that was better: Pippen almost averaged a triple double in the 93' finals (21/9/8).



Yeah, I remember him going 1-2 against the Bulls when Pippen played and the Bulls lost by only 7 in the game without Pip. The 94' Bulls as they existed could have beaten the Rockets. Add another superstar to the team and they easily would.



No pressure??? Pippen and Jackson had a lot of pressure to "prove" they could win without MJ.

A lot of MJ fans claim the 94' Bulls flew under the radar of other teams. In order to truly believe that you have to believe NBA players and coaches are morons. The Bulls started the season 5-7 but went on a 14-1 tear when Pippen came back. You would have to be a moron to not view the Bulls as legit contender at that point. However, according to several MJ fans, the 94' Bulls were in the battle for the #1 seed in the East for basically the entire year but no one noticed them...



I AM SURE THE LAKERS BELIEVED THEY WOULD WIN THE TITLE AFTER GETTING SHAQ AND KOBE FOR VLADE... The Lakers had won 53 games the year before... They won 3 MORE GAMES with SHAQ AND KOBE..

The next year they won 8 games more than in 95.. That team had shaq, kobe, eddie jones, van exel, fox, horry, and elden campbell.. My GOODNESS..
That stacked team got swept by that Crappy ass UTAH team no body respects...

[NBASTATMAN]

The 94 Bulls did have pressure on them as they wanted to prove they can win without MJ and Pip wanted to shed the alleged choker label because people were doubting his ability to rise in big moments due to some games in the 93 finals where he did not show up in the 4th/ot (game 3 and game 6). The Bulls that season did beneit from having a underdog menatalitiy since everyone doubted them and they were out to prove something.


They played great that season.. I don't think anyone would deny that.. But I recall MJ stating that he believed that the BULLS team would be able to win 50 plus games without him... THEY ADDED KUKOC, KERR, PETE MYERS, LUC LONGLEY AND BILL WENNINGTON Which gave them a deep front court... People act as if the Bulls won 55 games without MJ and didn't add any pieces..


THAT BULLS TEAM HAD 8 PLAYERS OVER 6FT 10 INCHES TALL...

THE GUYS that were added to that team avg 39 pts a game..

[DonDadda59]

A healthy Yao Ming.:bowdown:

A healthy Yao Ming is just an urban legend. There's more proof that this guy exsts:

http://www.wired.com/images/article/full/2007/08/loch_ness_monster_580x.jpg

[NBASTATMAN]

A healthy Yao Ming is just an urban legend. There's more proof that this guy exsts:

http://www.wired.com/images/article/full/2007/08/loch_ness_monster_580x.jpg



:roll: Even a healthy Yao would be lucky to win 1 title..The guy has gotten to the second round 1 time and all of a sudden he can win titles.. The guy is a very good offensive scorer but is a liabilty on pick and roll defense..
YAO has played with a healthy TMAC and still hasn't made the second round..

[DonDadda59]

people act like they didn't watch MJ play basketball at the highest level we've ever seen before and still had to reach down deep to pull out a few of the series'

there probably isn't another player since Jordan that could have stepped in and gone 6 for 6 in finals appearances

I'm thinking MAYBE Duncan and Shaq

very, very, speculative tho...more than likely nobody.

+1

If anyone could come close to the success Jordan garnered for the Bulls, it would have to be a dominant post player (both ends of the court) especially during the second 3-peat. A one-dimensional slasher or strictly jumpshooter wouldn't get the job done there. It would've been nice to see a Duncan-Pippen pairing, that would've been a perfect synchronization of selfless dominant two-way greats. But yeah, it took Jordan playing arguably the best basketball the world has seen to eek out some games in the last seconds. Not exactly like the Bulls were stacked offensively.

[Fatal9]

I AM SURE THE LAKERS BELIEVED THEY WOULD WIN THE TITLE AFTER GETTING SHAQ AND KOBE FOR VLADE... The Lakers had won 53 games the year before... They won 3 MORE GAMES with SHAQ AND KOBE..

The next year they won 8 games more than in 95.. That team had shaq, kobe, eddie jones, van exel, fox, horry, and elden campbell.. My GOODNESS..
That stacked team got swept by that Crappy ass UTAH team no body respects...
Kobe was a freaking rookie when that happened. Nothing more than a chucker bench player. Shaq also only played 51 games.

There goes your theory. Typical lying by a "must defend Jordan at all costs" fanboy.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe was a freaking rookie when that happened. Nothing more than a chucker bench player. Shaq also only played 51 games.

There goes your theory. Typical lying by a "must defend Jordan at all costs" fanboy.

Kobe told me Shaq missed those games that season because of a bad case of herpes he caught from one of the women he bought off for their silence after affairs. Some might call that snitching, but I think it was a noble act that benefited the Lakers as an organization. :applause:

[chitownsfinest]

Kobe told me Shaq missed those games that season because of a bad case of herpes he caught from one of the women he bought off for their silence after affairs. Some might call that snitching, but I think it was a noble act that benefited the Lakers as an organization. :applause:
:oldlol:

[KobeRules24]

let me say this first, Kobe doesn't win 6 titles with the Bulls, maybe 3 at most but some of these Jordan fans are just plain stupid. In 1994 the Bulls starting SG was Pete Myers :oldlol: if you replaced him with a prime Kobe that team wins 63-65 games and probably the title. don't you jordan stans agree?

[KobeRules24]

Kobe was a freaking rookie when that happened. Nothing more than a chucker bench player. Shaq also only played 51 games.

There goes your theory. Typical lying by a "must defend Jordan at all costs" fanboy.

NBAStatman=owned

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe was a freaking rookie when that happened. Nothing more than a chucker bench player. Shaq also only played 51 games.

There goes your theory. Typical lying by a "must defend Jordan at all costs" fanboy.


THEY ONLY WON 8 MORE GAMES THE NEXT YEAR... LOL.. Kobe was a allstar, so was vanexel, eddie jones, shaq .. They had ELDEN CAMPBELL, RICK FOX,HORRY, AND FISHER ON THE BENCH.. That team was stacked and Shaq played 60 games.. Still that stacked team was swept by the horrible UTAH TEAM..

[KobeRules24]

THEY ONLY WON 8 MORE GAMES THE NEXT YEAR... LOL.. Kobe was a allstar, so was vanexel, eddie jones, shaq .. They had ELDEN CAMPBELL, RICK FOX,HORRY, AND FISHER ON THE BENCH.. That team was stacked and Shaq played 60 games.. Still that stacked team was swept by the horrible UTAH TEAM..

The best player on the team played 60 games and they won 8 more games, that's a huge improvement you moron

[NBASTATMAN]

let me say this first, Kobe doesn't win 6 titles with the Bulls, maybe 3 at most but some of these Jordan fans are just plain stupid. In 1994 the Bulls starting SG was Pete Myers :oldlol: if you replaced him with a prime Kobe that team wins 63-65 games and probably the title. don't you jordan stans agree?


This is true.. But the Bulls went big.. Added luc for about 30 games, bill wennington, kukoc, kerr, pete myers .. Don't act like they only added pete myers.

[guy]

I've seen Kobe quit and shoot his team out of series. This goes beyond the box score. And Kobe has never had the defensive impact as Jordan did. So even if Kobe can match Jordan's stats, he couldn't match Jordan's impact. Kobe finally wins it as the top dog and he still only shoots 43% against a team Lebron KILLED in the round before. His 43% actually raised his Finals fg%! :eek:

I agree.



No. This is too generous. He doesn't beat the Knicks in 92 or 93. He doesn't stand up to the X-Man to protect his teammate in 92. He doesn't provide the all-around impact that Jordan did (even if he can match his statistical output) in 93 versus the Knicks. And I'm sorry but I think Kobe shoots even worse against that defense due to a combination of great D and Kobe's own selfish boneheaded-ness. He shot 43% against the Magic for crying out loud.

I said they wouldn't beat the Knicks in 92 or 93 :confusedshrug:



Does anyone remember Olajuwon during the 94 and 95 season? Can we give him some credit? Yes I know Chicago took the Knicks to 7 and the Knicks took the Rockets to 7. But you can't just add in Kobe's supposed numbers and say they'd win just because. What if Kobe doesn't feel like playing in the second half in a couple of those games (as he's done in the past)?. What if he doesn't feel like playing defense (another characteristic)? What if his productivity decreases due to the physicality? And who on that Bulls team would respect Kobe as the leader? I see all sorts of issues and beyond that, Pippen isn't the same player if you replace Jordan with Kobe. They don't beat Houston with Olajuwon playing like he was. In fact, I think Chicago and Houston would probably split the two years even if Jordan was playing at the top of his game.

I agree with this. I was only basing this comparison on how Kobe is as a player, and how Jordan's teammates actually did develop as players. If I tried to go into more details that went into how different Pippen/Grant would be for example, it would be way too difficult to make an actual comparison. There's such a large range, Pippen/Grant could've still been great (not as great) or they could've been unimportant role players with Kobe instead of Jordan. Its too hard to tell, which is why I just base it on how they actually were.

As far as Hakeem goes, if the Bulls had Jordan or a 2006 Kobe, which is the Kobe we would see if he was drafted to the Bulls in 1984, I don't think the Rockets really have much of a chance. That was Kobe at his best IMO, and I do think he would've adjusted from his scoring binges, if he felt like he could win a title. I feel like part of the reason he went out of his way to score so much in those years was cause his teams really didn't much of a chance of winning anyway. That was also Hakeem at his best, which was better then Kobe's best, but I just don't think that team was deep enough. If this was the 30 year old Kobe, like in Fatal9's scenario, they would still IMO, cause the Bulls would still just be that much deeper. And remember, this is based on my simply way of comparing.




etc, etc, etc.

I'm not sure how many he'd win, but it sure as hell wouldn't be six. And I think NBASTATMAN is too generous. I don't even think it would be four.

If we're using Fatal9's scenario of Kobe from 27-33, I think its 4. If we use a better comparison like I suggested meaning a 1997-2010 Kobe on the 1985-1998 Bulls, I think its about 3 titles if he doesn't retire for those two years. If Kobe is gone in those two years, I thinks its about 2 titles.

[DonDadda59]

THEY ONLY WON 8 MORE GAMES THE NEXT YEAR... LOL.. Kobe was a allstar, so was vanexel, eddie jones, shaq .. They had ELDEN CAMPBELL, RICK FOX,HORRY, AND FISHER ON THE BENCH.. That team was stacked and Shaq played 60 games.. Still that stacked team was swept by the horrible UTAH TEAM..

We talking about this Utah team?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/9/9f/Jordan_last_shot_1999.jpg

[DonDadda59]

This is true.. But the Bulls went big.. Added luc for about 30 games, bill wennington, kukoc, kerr, pete myers .. Don't act like they only added pete myers.

Yeah, and how many wins did that team (the offensively inept Rodman replacing Horace Grant) with Jordan in his first full season back? :applause:

[Fatal9]

Kobe told me Shaq missed those games that season because of a bad case of herpes he caught from one of the women he bought off for their silence after affairs. Some might call that snitching, but I think it was a noble act that benefited the Lakers as an organization. :applause:
While it is perfectly feasible to assume I was serious when I said that, step up your sarcasm/humor detector game :oldlol:

[nnn123]

let me say this first, Kobe doesn't win 6 titles with the Bulls, maybe 3 at most but some of these Jordan fans are just plain stupid. In 1994 the Bulls starting SG was Pete Myers :oldlol: if you replaced him with a prime Kobe that team wins 63-65 games and probably the title. don't you jordan stans agree?

But how can you be so sure? With Kobe in the lineup at the get-go, the whole team dynamic would have changed. Maybe the rest of the Bulls wouldn't have been so inclined to prove their worth, perhaps they wouldn't have played at such a high level. Maybe the team wouldn't have clicked as well with Kobe in the lineup...with MJ gone they had to adjust with better ball movement and teamwork....with another elite SG in Jordan's place, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to adjust like that.

I see ur point, it's just that there are too many factors to consider to know for sure.

[NBASTATMAN]

The best player on the team played 60 games and they won 8 more games, that's a huge improvement you moron


THEY ALSO HAD A STACKED TEAM.. Kobe was on a all star level already..

[NBASTATMAN]

We talking about this Utah team?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/9/9f/Jordan_last_shot_1999.jpg


YES THAT ONE.. And SHAQ PLAYED...

[KobeRules24]

THEY ALSO HAD A STACKED TEAM.. Kobe was on a all star level already..

:oldlol: kobe was an all star based on popularity he was not an all star caliber player

[DonDadda59]

While it is perfectly feasible to assume I was serious when I said that, step up your sarcasm/humor detector game :oldlol:

Sarcasm? Game? :confusedshrug:

I'm serious here. I'm sure herpes cases and many other venereal diseases contracted by NBA players dropped by 15-25% after Kobe bravely fought against the injustice of adultery and campaigned to strengthen the bonds of nuclear families all across the NBA through his noble deed :applause:

[KobeRules24]

But how can you be so sure? With Kobe in the lineup at the get-go, the whole team dynamic would have changed. Maybe the rest of the Bulls wouldn't have been so inclined to prove their worth, perhaps they wouldn't have played at such a high level. Maybe the team wouldn't have clicked as well with Kobe in the lineup...with MJ gone they had to adjust with better ball movement and teamwork....with another elite SG in Jordan's place, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to adjust like that.

I see ur point, it's just that there are too many factors to consider to know for sure.

great post, we're all speculating but fact remains that pete myers was not 20% the player kobe bryant is

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe was a freaking rookie when that happened. Nothing more than a chucker bench player. Shaq also only played 51 games.

There goes your theory. Typical lying by a "must defend Jordan at all costs" fanboy.


My bad .. I guess you are correct. I MADE A MISTAKE .... I ADMIT MY MISTAKES... LOL.. I have no problem doing that... You just leave and don't come back on the thread..

[NBASTATMAN]

great post, we're all speculating but fact remains that pete myers was not 20% the player kobe bryant is

I would say he was about the same..


Just kidding...

[NBASTATMAN]

:oldlol: kobe was an all star based on popularity he was not an all star caliber player


THANKS FOR WRITING THIS.... :applause:

Kobe's per minute scoring in that season was top notch.. The Lakers had so much talent he didn't get the minutes..

[Da_Realist]

I said they wouldn't beat the Knicks in 92 or 93 :confusedshrug:

I quoted you, but I wasn't responding to your post. :cheers:

[KobeRules24]

Yeah, and how many wins did that team (the offensively inept Rodman replacing Horace Grant) with Jordan in his first full season back? :applause:

Rodman was a great defensive player/rebounder; that made up for his offensive deficiencies. Grant was not very good at defense compared to Rodman

[NBASTATMAN]

let me say this first, Kobe doesn't win 6 titles with the Bulls, maybe 3 at most but some of these Jordan fans are just plain stupid. In 1994 the Bulls starting SG was Pete Myers :oldlol: if you replaced him with a prime Kobe that team wins 63-65 games and probably the title. don't you jordan stans agree?


I actually wrote that I believed Kobe could possibly win 4... I was being generous...

[KobeRules24]

THANKS FOR WRITING THIS.... :applause:

Kobe's per minute scoring in that season was top notch.. The Lakers had so much talent he didn't get the minutes..

It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about...kobe didn't get the minutes because....1. he wasn't better than Eddie Jones at that point of his career and 2. Del Harris

[NBASTATMAN]

Rodman was a great defensive player/rebounder; that made up for his offensive deficiencies. Grant was not very good at defense compared to Rodman


DENNIS RODMAN WAS better than Grant defensively.. But his production wasn't as great as people think.. They always doubled mj or pippen off of him.. That is why Pippens playoff numbers are not that good in 96,97,98

These are Rodman's numbers in the playoffs.
7.5 PTS 13.7 REBOUNDS IN 96 playoffs 48 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.2 PTS 8.4 REBOUDNS IN 97 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.9 PTS 11.9 REBOUNDS IN 98 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING


LAMAR ODOM IS PUTTING UP THOSE TYPE OF REBOUNDING NUMBERS IN THE PLAYOFFS THE LAST 4 YEARS...

[DonDadda59]

Rodman was a great defensive player/rebounder; that made up for his offensive deficiencies. Grant was not very good at defense compared to Rodman

Horace Grant
1992-1993 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1993-1994 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1994-1995 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1996-1997 All NBA Defensive Second Team

Obviously not the defensive player Rodman was, but to say he wasn't a solid defensive player is just plain ignorant. Add to the fact that he averaged from 12-15 PPG and 8-11 RPG as a starter for Chicago compared to Rodman's 5 PPG, you can see why a past his prime Jordan had to carry the team offensively, and be the go to guy in the post. So yeah, another failed post by you my friend.

[KobeRules24]

DENNIS RODMAN WAS better than Grant defensively.. But his production wasn't as great as people think.. They always doubled mj or pippen off of him.. That is why Pippens playoff numbers are not that good in 96,97,98

These are Rodman's numbers in the playoffs.
7.5 PTS 13.7 REBOUNDS IN 96 playoffs 48 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.2 PTS 8.4 REBOUDNS IN 97 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.9 PTS 11.9 REBOUNDS IN 98 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING


LAMAR ODOM IS PUTTING UP THOSE TYPE OF REBOUNDING NUMBERS IN THE PLAYOFFS THE LAST 4 YEARS...

Odom can't grab 14 rebounds a game like Rodman did in '96

[NBASTATMAN]

It's obvious you don't know what you're talking about...kobe didn't get the minutes because....1. he wasn't better than Eddie Jones at that point of his career and 2. Del Harris


You first write that Kobe didn't get the minutes because he wasn't better than Eddie Jones.. Than you write Dell Harris as the second reason.. It is one or the other.. It cannot be both.. If Dell came to the same conclusion as you have, that kobe wasn't as good as jones, than he shouldn't be a reason that Kobe didn't get the minutes. He didn't give Kobe the minutes because he wasn't as good as EDDIE.. HMMM.

[KobeRules24]

Horace Grant
1992-1993 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1993-1994 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1994-1995 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1996-1997 All NBA Defensive Second Team

Obviously not the defensive player Rodman was, but to say he wasn't a solid defensive player is just plain ignorant. Add to the fact that he averaged from 12-15 PPG and 8-11 RPG as a starter for Chicago compared to Rodman's 5 PPG, you can see why a past his prime Jordan had to carry the team offensively, and be the go to guy in the post. So yeah, another failed post by you my friend.

I didn't said he wasn't a solid defensive player, he was just not as good as Rodman :confusedshrug:. Grant was a very good offensive player and decent on defense. Rodman was a disaster on offense but his defense, rebounding and intangibles made up for that.

[NBASTATMAN]

Odom can't grab 14 rebounds a game like Rodman did in '96


Odom did avg 10 rebounds the past 4 season in the playoffs.... RODMAN avg 11.3 rebounds in the playoffs in his three seasons with the BULLS... Not a huge difference.. :bowdown: TO ODOM... Rebounding is all RODMAN DID..

ODOM IS A GREAT REBOUNDER... Plus he has shown he can defend at a high level...

[KobeRules24]

You first write that Kobe didn't get the minutes because he wasn't better than Eddie Jones.. Than you write Dell Harris as the second reason.. It is one or the other.. It cannot be both.. If Dell came to the same conclusion as you have, that kobe wasn't as good as jones, than he shouldn't be a reason that Kobe didn't get the minutes. He didn't give Kobe the minutes because he wasn't as good as EDDIE.. HMMM.

Del Harris got fired in part he didn't play Kobe more minutes, so yes this is a valid reason. Eddie Jones was better than Kobe, not by a wide margin but he was the better player. It was harris job to find the minutes for kobe,(he was the team's 4th best player at the time) and he couldn't so he got fired. rick fox played 33 minutes per game kobe needed at least 8 of those minutes fox was playing, Harris was a terrible coach

[DonDadda59]

I didn't said he wasn't a solid defensive player, he was just not as good as Rodman :confusedshrug:. Grant was a very good offensive player and decent on defense. Rodman was a disaster on offense but his defense, rebounding and intangibles made up for that.

No, Jordan had to make up for that. Essentially playing the 2 and the 4, but luckily they were running Tex Winter's triangle offense so offensive positions aren't always used traditionally and they made it work.

[NBASTATMAN]

Horace Grant
1992-1993 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1993-1994 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1994-1995 All NBA Defensive Second Team
1996-1997 All NBA Defensive Second Team

Obviously not the defensive player Rodman was, but to say he wasn't a solid defensive player is just plain ignorant. Add to the fact that he averaged from 12-15 PPG and 8-11 RPG as a starter for Chicago compared to Rodman's 5 PPG, you can see why a past his prime Jordan had to carry the team offensively, and be the go to guy in the post. So yeah, another failed post by you my friend.


TAKE A LOOK AT RODMAN'S REBOUNDING NUMBERS IN THE PLAYOFFS AND IT BECOMES EVEN WORSE.. Rodman avg 11.3 rebounds in the playoffs and Odom has avg 10 rebounds in the past four seasons in the playoffs..

[NBASTATMAN]

Del Harris got fired in part he didn't play Kobe more minutes, so yes this is a valid reason. Eddie Jones was better than Kobe, not by a wide margin but he was the better player. It was harris job to find the minutes for kobe,(he was the team's 4th best player at the time) and he couldn't so he got fired. rick fox played 33 minutes per game, kobe needed at least 8 of those minutes fox was playing


ARE YOU A LAKER FAN????????... Del Harris didn't get fired that year... We are writing about 97-98 .. Del was fired in the beginning of 98-99... Bad post... Jones only played 20 games for the lakers that season.. He was traded for Glen Rice... DEL WAS FIRED CUZ THE LAKERS STARTED THE SEASON 6-6

[KobeRules24]

No, Jordan had to make up for that. Essentially playing the 2 and the 4, but luckily they were running Tex Winter's triangle offense so offensive positions aren't always used traditionally and they made it work.

Jordan's the only player in the history of the league to play 2 positions at the same time!! :applause: you jordan jockers are hilarious

[Duncan21formvp]

The 90s Bulls was featuring 2 other great talents in Pippen and Grant. Later, Pippen and Rodman. Plus excellent role players. How many players do you feel can take MJ's place on that team and still win at least 6 titles?

Can Hakeem? Shaq? Duncan? Wilt perhaps? Bird? Magic? Lebron? Kobe? D-Rob?

No one can because all other top 20 legends have lost series having homecourt advantage. MJ is the only one who never lost any series where he had the homecourt or higher seed, or even same seed.

[KobeRules24]

ARE YOU A LAKER FAN????????... Del Harris didn't get fired that year... We are writing about 97-98 .. Del was fired in the beginning of 98-99... Bad post...

i know he got fired the following year but the kobe situation had a lot to do with that

[Da_Realist]

No pressure??? Pippen and Jackson had a lot of pressure to "prove" they could win without MJ.

A lot of MJ fans claim the 94' Bulls flew under the radar of other teams. In order to truly believe that you have to believe NBA players and coaches are morons. The Bulls started the season 5-7 but went on a 14-1 tear when Pippen came back. You would have to be a moron to not view the Bulls as legit contender at that point. However, according to several MJ fans, the 94' Bulls were in the battle for the #1 seed in the East for basically the entire year but no one noticed them...

Wednesday night in Houston.

The all-world Michael Jordan (a guy who retired as the GOAT in the opinion of many in 93) and Scottie Pippen are bringing the 2-time defending champions into the Summit to play the Rockets. The game's probably on national tv and everyone is watching to see the MJ vs Hakeem matchup.
vs
The all-world but not nearly as visually spectacular Scottie Pippen bringing the Bulls into town to play the Rockets.

Which game is more highly anticipated to the fans in Houston? The media? The Houston Rockets? Which game do they circle on the calendar?


MJ/Pippen and the Bulls vs the Knicks in Madison Square Garden
vs
Pippen and the Bulls vs the Knicks in MSG?

Which is more highly anticipated? Which game are the Knicks going to be more pumped for? Which game is circled on their calendar when the schedule comes out?

I could do that with every single game. There is a difference when you know you're going to play Michael Jordan than when you're playing the Bulls without him. I'm not saying the Bulls weren't good, I'm saying teams were more hyped to compete against a Michael Jordan-led team.

[NBASTATMAN]

These are Rodman's numbers in the playoffs.
7.5 PTS 13.7 REBOUNDS IN 96 playoffs 48 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.2 PTS 8.4 REBOUDNS IN 97 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING
4.9 PTS 11.9 REBOUNDS IN 98 PLAYOFFS 37 PERCENT SHOOTING


THESE ARE PIPPENS NUMBERS IN THE PLAYOFFS

16.9 8.5 rebounds and 5.9 ASS 39percent shooting in 96 playoffs
19.2 6.8 3.8 on 41 percent shooting in 97 playoffs
16.8 7.1 5.2 on 41 percent shooting in 98 playoffs

[NBASTATMAN]

i know he got fired the following year but the kobe situation had a lot to do with that


OK.. So the 6-6 start was not the main reason.. :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree with that. I just think a lot of MJ fans exaggerate the difference. The 94' Bulls were not exactly a borderline playoff team that everyone overlooked. They were legit contenders and the best team in the East when Pippen was on the floor. There is a degree of letdown without MJ but the 94' Bulls were not overlooked by any means. If they were that would have been early in the season--and they started 5-7 (4-6 without Pippen). That is fairly reasonable since many observers predicted they would not even make the playoffs. Even Phil Jackson predicted a mere 42 wins. This makes Pippen's performance even more impressive that season. They were 4-6 without him but they may have been even worse if they were taken seriously. If teams were not taking the Bulls sans Jordan seriously at the start of the season how much fear could a team without Jordan and Pippen inspire???


THESE ARE PIPPENS NUMBERS IN THE PLAYOFFS

16.9 8.5 rebounds and 5.9 ASS 39percent shooting in 96 playoffs
19.2 6.8 3.8 on 41 percent shooting in 97 playoffs
16.8 7.1 5.2 on 41 percent shooting in 98 playoffs

Why didn't you mention that Pippen led the league in playoff defensive rating in 96', an astonishing feat for a perimeter player? He also led in defensive win shares. You call yourself a stat man but don't look at all the stats nor the context.

You MJ stans keep cherry picking when Pippen was hurt (96', 97', 98'), well with respect to offense. You guys pretend defense did not exist because Pip was dominant defensively during that period. Let's look at his entire playoff record.

When healthy on the 90's Bulls:

1990: 19/7/6
1991: 22/9/6 (1st in playoff defensive rating, 1st in defensive win shares)
1992: 20/9/7 (1st in defensive win shares)
1993: 20/7/6
1994: 23/8/5
1995: 18/9/6

How about the NBA finals during these years?

1991: 21/9/7/2 steals. He came within 3 assists of a triple double in Game 5. He had three double doubles.
1992: 21/8/8/2. He was one rebound shy of a triple double in Game 1, two rebounds short in Game 2, and one assist shy in Game 5.
1993: 21/9/8/2. He had a triple double in Game 2 and was one assist from another one in Game 3. Had had three double doubles in addition to his triple double.

Pippen led the team in assists in the 1992 and 1993 NBA finals and actually led the team in rebounding in the 1991 and 1992 finals. Grant, unlike Pippen, performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season and this combined with Pippen stepping up resulted in Pippen outrebounding him twice (Pippen would also lead the team in rebounding in the 94' playoffs, in addition to leading the team in points, assists, and steals.). So in 1993 a 6'7” SF was leading the team in assists and rebounding in the finals while also contributing 21 ppg!

What a scrub, huh? :oldlol:

On top of all this he played world class defense.

:roll: @ fake Bulls fans AKA MJ stans harping on the second three peat when Pippen was hurt in the playoffs every year. (the funniest is 1997. MJ stans quote Pippen averaging 19.2 over the playoffs but they never mention that Pippen got hurt in game 5, the closeout game, of the ECF. He played only 7 minutes and scored only 2 points in that game. Take that game out and he averaged 20.2 over the other 18 games, even with an injured foot for several games) Even then he averaged solid offensive numbers and played great defense. Jordan let Pippen hold the finals MVP trophy in 1998...

Pippen consistently stepped up in the playoffs. Let's compare his regular season stats to his playoff ones. I will list regular season stats first.

1988: 8/4/2, 10/5/2
1989: 14/6/4, 13/8/4
1990: 17/7/5, 19/7/6
1991: 18/7/6, 22/9/6
1992: 21/8/7, 20/9/7
1993: 19/8/6, 20/7/6
1994: 22/9/6, 23/8/5
1995: 21/8/5, 18/9/6 (20/7/5 in the regular season with MJ).

1996: 19/6/6, 17/9/6 (1st in playoff defensive rating, 1st in defensive win shares)
1997: 20/7/6, 20/7/4 (excluding the last game of the ECF where he got hurt and played only 7 minutes)
1998: 19/5/6, 17/7/5

1999: 15/7/6, 18/12/6
2000: 13/6/5, 15/7/4
2001: 11/5/5, 14/6/2
2002: 11/5/6, 16/9/6
2003: 11/4/5, 6/3/3*

Pippen consistently improved in the playoffs, especially his rebounding. The exceptions were when he was injured, such as 96', 97', 98' and 03'.

1988: +2 ppg, +1 rpg,
1989: -1 ppg, +2 rpg
1990: +2 ppg, =rpg
1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1994: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1995: +2 ppg, +2 rpg (compared to his numbers after MJ returned)
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg
1999: +3 ppg, +5 rpg
2000: +2 ppg, +1 rpg (Pippen led the 00' Blazers in rebounding, assists, steals and scored just 3 ppg less than Wallace)
2001: +3 ppg, +1 rpg
2002: +5 ppg, +4 rpg
2003: -5 ppg, -1 rpg

His assists were consistent so I did not include that. 10 times he increased his scoring, and 11 times his rebounding. Three times when his scoring declined he was injured and the other was in his second season. In 1992 it declined but only from 21 ppg to 20 ppg. His rebounding declined thrice, and one instance was in 2003 when he was injured and toast as a player.

[NBASTATMAN]

No one can because all other top 20 legends have lost series having homecourt advantage. MJ is the only one who never lost any series where he had the homecourt or higher seed, or even same seed.


Something I didn't know... :cheers:

[KobeRules24]

OK.. So the 6-6 start was not the main reason.. :roll:

yes, that was a great factor as well :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

I agree with that. I just think a lot of MJ fans exaggerate the difference. The 94' Bulls were not exactly a borderline playoff team that everyone overlooked. They were legit contenders and the best team in the East when Pippen was on the floor. There is a degree of letdown without MJ but the 94' Bulls were not overlooked by any means. If they were that would have been early in the season--and they started 5-7 (4-6 without Pippen). That is fairly reasonable since many observers predicted they would not even make the playoffs. Even Phil Jackson predicted a mere 42 wins. This makes Pippen's performance even more impressive that season. They were 4-6 without him but they may have been even worse if they were taken seriously. If teams were not taking the Bulls sans Jordan seriously at the start of the season how much fear could a team without Jordan and Pippen inspire???


The Bulls were legit contenders that year.. They had 8 players over 6ft 10 inches tall.. Kukoc,kerr, pete myers, wennington, and luk longley avg 39 pts a game.. Those guys replaced MJ... Pippen's ankles were better than the year before... I still don't believe that the Bulls win without MJ... Take the 2000 BLAZERS for an example.. That team had great talent yet they couldn't finish off the LAKERS.. WHY DIDN'T PIPPEN WIN WITH THAT TEAM?


STEVE SMITH, DAMON , RASHEED, GRANT, PIPPEN,SABONIS, SHREMPF, BONZI WELLS, greg anthony on the bench, a young jermain oneal.. Come on.. Pippen had a great team and the win in his hands.. He never delivered...

[NBASTATMAN]

yes, that was a great factor as well :confusedshrug:


GOT YOU.. :lol

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan's the only player in the history of the league to play 2 positions at the same time!! :applause: you jordan jockers are hilarious


HE WAS THAT GREAT... :banana: :hammertime:

[Roundball_Rock]

The Bulls were legit contenders that year.. They had 8 players over 6ft 10 inches tall.. Kukoc,kerr, pete myers, wennington, and luk longley avg 39 pts a game.. Those guys replaced MJ... Pippen's ankles were better than the year before... I still don't believe that the Bulls win without MJ... Take the 2000 BLAZERS for an example.. That team had great talent yet they couldn't finish off the LAKERS.. WHY DIDN'T PIPPEN WIN WITH THAT TEAM?


STEVE SMITH, DAMON , RASHEED, GRANT, PIPPEN,SABONIS, SHREMPF, BONZI WELLS, greg anthony on the bench, a young jermain oneal.. Come on.. Pippen had a great team and the win in his hands.. He never delivered...

Pippen was 34 and lost most of his athleticism by 2000. How can you compare that to prime Pippen in 1994? Old Jordan could not even make the playoffs with Rip Hamilton and Jerry Stackhouse in an incredibly weak East. Why do MJ stans give him a pass for that while criticizing Pippen for winning 59 games in a deep West and coming within 2 minutes of a championship? Yeah, the Blazers had a great team but so did the Lakers: prime Shaq, Kobe, Glen Rice (who was 7th and 3rd in the league in scoring before coming to LA and becoming the #3 option), Eddie Jones, Elden Campell, and Robert Horry.

Kukoc, Myers, Wennington, and Longley did not come into a near vacuum. Cartwright was almost useless in 94', Paxson played 12 mpg, and so on. The Bulls lost some players either directly or some players simply became useless like Cartwright and Paxson.

Why are you including scrubs like Myers and Wennington btw? :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]I agree with that. I just think a lot of MJ fans exaggerate the difference. The 94' Bulls were not exactly a borderline playoff team that everyone overlooked. They were legit contenders and the best team in the East when Pippen was on the floor. There is a degree of letdown without MJ but the 94' Bulls were not overlooked by any means. If they were that would have been early in the season--and they started 5-7 (4-6 without Pippen). That is fairly reasonable since many observers predicted they would not even make the playoffs. Even Phil Jackson predicted a mere 42 wins. This makes Pippen's performance even more impressive that season. They were 4-6 without him but they may have been even worse if they were taken seriously. If teams were not taking the Bulls sans Jordan seriously at the start of the season how much fear could a team without Jordan and Pippen inspire???



Why didn't you mention that Pippen led the league in playoff defensive rating in 96', an astonishing feat for a perimeter player? He also led in defensive win shares. You call yourself a stat man but don't look at all the stats nor the context.

You MJ stans keep cherry picking when Pippen was hurt (96', 97', 98'), well with respect to offense. You guys pretend defense did not exist because Pip was dominant defensively during that period. Let's look at his entire playoff record.

When healthy on the 90's Bulls:

1990: 19/7/6
1991: 22/9/6 (1st in playoff defensive rating, 1st in defensive win shares)
1992: 20/9/7 (1st in defensive win shares)
1993: 20/7/6
1994: 23/8/5
1995: 18/9/6

How about the NBA finals during these years?

1991: 21/9/7/2 steals. He came within 3 assists of a triple double in Game 5. He had three double doubles.
1992: 21/8/8/2. He was one rebound shy of a triple double in Game 1, two rebounds short in Game 2, and one assist shy in Game 5.
1993: 21/9/8/2. He had a triple double in Game 2 and was one assist from another one in Game 3. Had had three double doubles in addition to his triple double.

Pippen led the team in assists in the 1992 and 1993 NBA finals and actually led the team in rebounding in the 1991 and 1992 finals. Grant, unlike Pippen, performed worse in the playoffs than in the regular season and this combined with Pippen stepping up resulted in Pippen outrebounding him twice (Pippen would also lead the team in rebounding in the 94' playoffs, in addition to leading the team in points, assists, and steals.). So in 1993 a 6'7

[chitownsfinest]

Pippen was 34 and lost most of his athleticism by 2000. How can you compare that to prime Pippen in 1994? Old Jordan could not even make the playoffs with Rip Hamilton and Jerry Stackhouse in an incredibly weak East. Why do MJ stans give him a pass for that while criticizing Pippen for winning 59 games in a deep West and coming within 2 minutes of a championship? Yeah, the Blazers had a great team but so did the Lakers: prime Shaq, Kobe, Glen Rice (who was 7th and 3rd in the league in scoring before coming to LA and becoming the #3 option), Eddie Jones, Elden Campell, and Robert Horry.

Kukoc, Myers, Wennington, and Longley did not come into a near vacuum. Cartwright was almost useless in 94', Paxson played 12 mpg, and so on. The Bulls lost some players either directly or some players simply became useless like Cartwright and Paxson.

Why are you including scrubs like Myers and Wennington btw? :oldlol:
Just correcting two quick mistakes:
1.MJ never had Stack and Rip on the same team at the same time during both years. They were traded for each other.
2. Eddie Jones and Camp were not on any of the 00-02 Laker teams that faced Portland in the playoffs.

I would also like to add that MJ did have the Wiz at a 27-24 mark in the 01-02 season before he suffered a injury. It is likely they go to the playoffs if he stays healthy.

Also, MJ had to carry a heavier load then Pip did so it is illogical to compare them.

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen was 34 and lost most of his athleticism by 2000. How can you compare that to prime Pippen in 1994? Old Jordan could not even make the playoffs with Rip Hamilton and Jerry Stackhouse in an incredibly weak East. Why do MJ stans give him a pass for that while criticizing Pippen for winning 59 games in a deep West and coming within 2 minutes of a championship? Yeah, the Blazers had a great team but so did the Lakers: prime Shaq, Kobe, Glen Rice (who was 7th and 3rd in the league in scoring before coming to LA and becoming the #3 option), Eddie Jones, Elden Campell, and Robert Horry.

Kukoc, Myers, Wennington, and Longley did not come into a near vacuum. Cartwright was almost useless in 94', Paxson played 12 mpg, and so on. The Bulls lost some players either directly or some players simply became useless like Cartwright and Paxson.



... Elden campbell and eddie jones were not on that team...
Why are you including scrubs like Myers and Wennington btw? :oldlol:


Pippen was 34 but he choked with some great talent around him.. Yes the Lakers were loaded as well.. But the LAKERS DIDN't have a 15 pt lead in the 4th quarter.. Pippen shot 3-10 in that game.. Look I love Pippens' game.. One of the smartest players the league has seen.. But the guy could never deliver..

I included WENNINGTON AND PETE because both added about 15 pts a game that year, TOGETHER THAT IS...Kerr took over for Paxson.. Still the guys they added the year mj left avg 39 pts a game .. Luc only played 30 games or so.


RIP AND JERRY STACKHOUSE were traded for each other..

[chitownsfinest]

Pippen was 34 but he choked with some great talent around him.. Yes the Lakers were loaded as well.. But the LAKERS DIDN't have a 15 pt lead in the 4th quarter.. Pippen shot 3-10 in that game.. Look I love Pippens' game.. One of the smartest players the league has seen.. But the guy could never deliver..

I included them because both added about 15 pts a game that year, TOGETHER THAT IS...
Pip did not really choke that Q. The refs did call two bs calls on Sabonis that fouled him out and Sabonis was playing great D on Shaq until that point. Pip also did not brick the two three free throws in the end of the game that Sheed bricked. Pip was also not the one who left Horry and Shaw open for the three 3's both made. Pip also did not take many shots in that 4th either. Pip also played great that series and talked mad sh!t as well.

[NBASTATMAN]

Pip did not really choke that Q. The refs did call two bs calls on Sabonis that fouled him out and Sabonis was playing great D on Shaq until that point. Pip also did not brick the two three free throws in the end of the game that Sheed bricked. Pip was also not the one who left Horry and Shaw open for the three 3's both made. Pip also did not take many shots in that 4th either. Pip also played great that series and talked mad sh!t as well.


We could also speak about the refs.. But let's not do that.. It just brings back bad memories.. :banghead:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was great in the first three peat... You write that PIPPEN was injured in 96 and then write that he was first in defensive rating.. WHICH IS IT? WAS he injured or did he play great defense with that big injury? WHAT A JOKE...

Yeah, because no one has ever played great hurt. :oldlol: Pippen averaged less than 15 ppg during the final two months of the 1996 season due to his injury problems, after having his best scoring season ever (21.3-21.6 ppg despite playing with the league's leading scorer) prior to that.

Pippen was injured at various points in those years. Only in 96' was he injured the whole time. Obviously injuries are going to hurt a player's playoff stats.

Correct on the Lakers. Still, they were obviously a stacked team which is why they won 67 games. They had the league's best player and leading scorer and two other guys capable of ranking in the top 10 in scoring as the #1 option. Rice was 7th and 3rd in ppg in the previous two seasons with the Hornets.


I would also like to add that MJ did have the Wiz at a 27-24 mark in the 01-02 season

Yeah--in the weak East. I believe MJ's stint in Washington enhances his legacy (averaging 25 ppg before his injury despite being ancient) but if MJ stans are going to criticize Pippen for winning 59 games in a deep West and coming within 2 minutes of a championship they need to be consistent and then criticize the GOAT for struggling to stay above .500 even in a pathetic conference.

Pippen has 6 rings and 9 conference finals appearance and made the playoffs 16 straight seasons. What a choker! :oldlol:

Good post, chitown on Pip's performance in the WCF. The fact of the matter is if the Blazers won Pippen would be the one getting the credit. Everyone at the time acknowledged that he was the leader of the team.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yeah, because no one has ever played great hurt. :oldlol: Pippen averaged less than 15 ppg during the final two months of the 1996 season due to his injury problems, after having his best scoring season ever (21.3-21.6 ppg despite playing with the league's leading scorer) prior to that.

Pippen was injured at various points in those years. Only in 96' was he injured the whole time. Obviously injuries are going to hurt a player's playoff stats.

Correct on the Lakers. Still, they were obviously a stacked team which is why they won 67 games. They had the league's best player and leading scorer and two other guys capable of ranking in the top 10 in scoring as the #1 option. Rice was 7th and 3rd in ppg in the previous two seasons with the Hornets.



Yeah--in the weak East. I believe MJ's stint in Washington enhances his legacy (averaging 25 ppg before his injury despite being ancient) but if MJ stans are going to criticize Pippen for winning 59 games in a deep West and coming within 2 minutes of a championship they need to be consistent and then criticize the GOAT for struggling to stay above .500 even in a pathetic conference.

Pippen has 6 rings and 9 conference finals appearance and made the playoffs 16 straight seasons. What a choker! :oldlol:

Good post, chitown on Pip's performance in the WCF. The fact of the matter is if the Blazers won Pippen would be the one getting the credit. Everyone at the time acknowledged that he was the leader of the team.


TRUE .. Pippen would have gotten the credit.. But he didn't win.. Sure the refs had something to do with it.. But Pippen had his chances as well... THOSE ARE THE BREAKS..

[Revelation]

Yes, it takes in to account that three pointers are worth an extra point.

For example, player X shoots 5-10 (all 2 pointers), while player Y shoots 4-10 (all 3 pointers). Which one are you going to take? The one that yielded you 10 points on 10 shots or 12 points on 12 shots?

It takes away the bias that FG% has with big men and midrange type of players (in fact Kobe shoots almost the exact same percentage on 2 pointers as #1 option as MJ did during the first three peat!), and takes in to account that 3 points > 2 points. Some people aren't used to it because it isn't conventional, but it is much much better than FG%.

Here for example are the stats:

MJ's FG% on 2s in the first 3 peat: 50.86%
Kobe's FG% on 2s as #1 option: 50.65%

MJ's eFG% in the first 3 peat: 51.5%
Kobe's eFG% as #1 option: 50.7%

These are in virtually the same # of games and at the same ages too.

Don't you think that is rather selective? I means seriously, I know you were only comparing Kobe to the late Jordan but that's hardly fair. If you take a complete look it doesn't look nearly as pretty.

First, let us take a look at Jordan

[Fatal9]

Don't you think that is rather selective? I means seriously, I know you were only comparing Kobe to the late Jordan but that's hardly fair. If you take a complete look it doesn't look nearly as pretty.

Late Jordan? This is prime Jordan ('89-'93) we are pulling the stat comparison for. Kobe isn't nearly as consistent in the regular season and I never used those stats at all, just the playoff runs (ie. facing better overall defense) during similar ages, in similar situations and over virtually identical # of games (Kobe never had the luxury of going up against a SG's dream matchup in Phoenix who Drexler torched that year too, and an aging/unhealthy Lakers team, during the finals either!).

[NBASTATMAN]

Late Jordan? This is prime Jordan ('89-'93) we are pulling the stat comparison for. Kobe isn't nearly as consistent in the regular season and I never used those stats at all, just the playoff runs (ie. facing better overall defense) during similar ages, in similar situations and over virtually identical # of games (Kobe never had the luxury of going up against a SG's dream matchup in Phoenix who Drexler torched that year too, and an aging/unhealthy Lakers team, during the finals either!).


MANU GINOBOLI has a much better effective fg percentage during the playoffs... Since 05 he has shot
58
53
48
50

kobe's
54 suns defense 1 round of bball
50 suns defense 5 games of bball.
.514
.492

Manu avg around 19 pts a game.. Kobe around 30.. Mj avg around 35 ..

[amfirst]

I think it would be better if u break down the players that MJ won his 6 rings against that way u can tell which players would be better.

[amfirst]

Young Kobe never had to go against such crazy defense like he does today. The dude gets grab everywhere in the post. I never seen defense like that back when hand checking was possible.

Hand checking is overated, I never notcie getting better in a referee game as to street balling. Street balling was actually easier to score, u can feel the guy easier, and if he gets close enough to hand check, u can get by him easier.

[Fatal9]

MANU GINOBOLI has a much better effective fg percentage since 05 THAN KOBE.. The no touch rules really helped... Manu has played in the same western conference as KOBE..
Yea, and Manu was the first option on his team when?

Manu put up 30/6/5 as first option, when?

:oldlol: at you.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yea, and Manu was the first option on his team when?

Manu put up 30/6/5 as first option, when?

:oldlol: at you.


I edited it to show manu's avg..

[OldSchoolBBall]

The other top 10 players and the # of titles I think they win:

KAJ - 7+
Wilt - 6+
Bird - 6+ (with no back injuries)
Shaq - 5
Duncan - 5
Kobe - 5
Hakeem - 5
Magic - 3
Russell - ?

Think about some of the combinations: Pippen & Bird, Pippen & Kareem :bowdown:

LMAO :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Late Jordan? This is prime Jordan ('89-'93) we are pulling the stat comparison for. Kobe isn't nearly as consistent in the regular season and I never used those stats at all, just the playoff runs (ie. facing better overall defense) during similar ages, in similar situations and over virtually identical # of games (Kobe never had the luxury of going up against a SG's dream matchup in Phoenix who Drexler torched that year too, and an aging/unhealthy Lakers team, during the finals either!).


First you write that Kobe has never gone against a SG dream matchup.. The SUNS of 06 and 07 were a dream for anyone to play against.. :lol :lol

SECOND you wrote that Drexler torched that 1992-1993 SUNS team.. These are drexlers stats for that season vs the SUNS..

5-21 SHOOTING 12 PTS IN FIRST GAME
11-22 36 PTS IN SECOND GAME


Yea he torched them... :roll:

HE SHOT 37 PERCENT AND AVG 24 PTS A GAME... THIS DUDE IS A JOKE..

Let me finish him off..


The first two years you quote were vs the SUNS great defense.. I :lol at you..

I can see you using the 2008 and 2009 seasons but 1 round of bball.. Get rid of the one round vs the suns in each of 06-07 and we have.

.514 in 2008 KOBE
.492 in 2009 KOBE
Since 05 wade has played on two teams where his team played at least 14 playoff games..So we are comparing players who played in more than two series of bball..

2005 he shot eff .486
2006 he shot eff .512

he avg 27 and 6 assists in 05
he avg 28 and 6 assists in 06

Wade was injured in 07 and didn't make the playoffs in 08.. Wade only played one round of bball this playoffs..

We are not even talking about Wade at his best.. In 2005, Wade shot 7-20 in game seven of the ECF because he had rib injuries.. If not the numbers would be better.. Imagine what Wade does if you give him a great offensive team around him.. LOL

WADE'S PER WAS 24.3 IN 05
WADE' PER WAS 26.9 IN 06..

Kobe's PER WAS 25 IN 08
KOBE'S PER was 26.8 in 09

This is a prime kobe and not a prime and WADE.

[Fatal9]

[B]SECOND you wrote that Drexler torched that 1992-1993 SUNS team.. These are drexlers stats for that season vs the SUNS..

5-21 SHOOTING 12 PTS IN FIRST GAME
11-22 36 PTS IN SECOND GAME


Yea he torched them... :roll:

I was referring to the '92 series, where he had the best series of his career with Dan Majerle guarding him. The same mismatches that existed in '93 for Jordan, were present for Clyde (who is no where near as talented). Mis-wrote "that year", should have specified I was referring to the playoff series. Like I said, that Suns team was a perimeter players' wet dream.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Fatal9 has been absolutely out of control with the Jordan bashing. Hysterical to watch. :oldlol:

[chitownsfinest]

I was referring to the '92 series, where he had the best series of his career with Dan Majerle guarding him. The same mismatches that existed in '93 for Jordan, were present for Clyde (who is no where near as talented). Mis-wrote "that year", should have specified I was referring to the playoff series. Like I said, that Suns team was a perimeter players' wet dream.
:roll: Yes Dan guarded Jordan but Jordan was routinely doubled the entire series as well. Jordan was also assigned to guard Majerlie and KJ the entire series and both were fine offensive players meaning Jordan was not allowed to sag off on D. Dan did not shoot well in that series and Jordan locked down KJ when ever he was put on him. In game 3 KJ was torching B.J. Armstrong in the 4th Quater. Jordan guarded him the rest of the way including the 3 OT's and KJ only scored one fg on Jordan's D. Dan, in fact, had his best game when Jordan was not guarding him most the game in game 3. In the first two games, Jordan primarily guarded Dan and held him to 10/25 shooting the first two games. Also stop acting like Dan was a slouch on D. He was named all defensive team that season.

Throw in Jordan's amazing performance on both ends in the series and his clutch play and you have a series where Jordan was irreplaceable by any perimeter player in NBA history for that series. No on is doing 41/8/6 that series. Yes, a great player like KB would maybe put up a nice 32/6/6 but that would not be good enough to win the series. People seem to forget that MJ's 41/8/6 was just good enough to win the series. Look at the scoring spreads of the games and you will see what I mean. Also, factor in his overall clutchness in that series as well. In the first two games of the series, MJ averaged 12-14 pts in the 4th Q. In Game 2, he scored 10 pts in the final 6 mins including back to back clutch j's in the end of the game that gave the Bulls an 8 pt lead and iced the game. Those J's are big as Ainge scores 5 str8 pts to bring it back to 3. In game 3, Jordan plays clutch defense on KJ as well forcing a TO for a fast break opportunity to start the Bulls comeback in the 4th. He also hits Ho Grant with a pass for the game tying dunk in the 4th. He also hits two clutch baskets in the second ot to force a third ot. In game 4, MJ scores 12 in the 4th and hits the game clinching and 1 layup off Barkley to seal the game in the last minute. I don't even have to talk about game 6, when MJ scores every single point in the 4th Q with the exception of Paxson's three. It was MJ who hit the jumper to answer Dan's 3 and give the lead back to the Bulls. It was MJ who had the fast break lay up in the final minute of the game to cut the Suns lead down to 2, setting it up for Paxson to hit the 3. No one fu*king perimeter player could have combined what MJ did offensively/defensively and in the clutch that series. Stop acting like the Suns D gave everything to MJ in that series. You are trying too hard to diminish Jordan.

[Soundwave]

No one IMO.

The Bulls probably prevented Jordan from winning titles earlier in his career.

If he was gift wrapped Kareem + Worthy like Magic was, the Bulls would've started winning titles even earlier.

Pippen was a good no.2 option, but a no.2 option none the less.

Lets not forget this is the same guy who was part of that stacked Portland team that CHOKED (one of the biggest chokes in NBA playoffs history) away a championship versus the Lakers in game 7 of 2000.

He also needed Kukoc to bail him out in 1994 versus the Knicks.

[97 bulls]

No one IMO.

The Bulls probably prevented Jordan from winning titles earlier in his career.

If he was gift wrapped Kareem + Worthy like Magic was, the Bulls would've started winning titles even earlier.

Pippen was a good no.2 option, but a no.2 option none the less.

Lets not forget this is the same guy who was part of that stacked Portland team that CHOKED (one of the biggest chokes in NBA playoffs history) away a championship versus the Lakers in game 7 of 2000.

He also needed Kukoc to bail him out in 1994 versus the Knicks.
how can you base your arggument on 2 plays????? the things pip did far outweighs the bad. just assinine.

[raptorfan_dr07]

This thread took a real nose dive. :oldlol: It looks like a regular thread with someone asking what they felt was a legitimate question, that all of a sudden turned into a "How many rings would Kobe win with Jordan's teams". :roll:

The answer is quite simple, a big fat ZERO. Jordan's teammates do not play on that high of a level with Kobe. They would be a playoff team, but probably routinely loose in the early rounds of the playoffs. People are also making the mistake of thinking today's Kobe is what we'd see with 90's style basketball. Kobe would get shut down rather easily with 90's style rules/defense. We saw what happened against Detroit and Boston. Hell, the Magic are nowhere near being considered as an elite defensive team, yet Kobe had to be routinely bailed out in the Finals by his teammates combined with the Magic choking while only shooting 43%. I see some of these idiots saying Kobe would have 4-5 rings with MJ's team, when Kobe, facing much weaker competition, has yet to have a Finals series that's anywhere near on par with Jordan.

As far as any other players winning as many rings with MJ's cast, I'd say possibly Shaq, possibly Kareem, don't know about any of the other true all time greats. People have pointed this out in other posts, but a lot of you fail to realize just how high a level MJ was playing at. It wasn't like the Bulls just swept through everyone and had no competition. They had some very tough games/playoff series against some very tough teams. Many of their wins were won just because of MJ's sheer brilliance/dominance.

[indiefan23]

welll maybe the obvious reason :confusedshrug:

he won 11. some as a coach and some as a player......

he obviously has the winning thing down...

why do you think not?

11 titles not enough for you?

Dude, do you really think that Bill Russell is the same player today? Or that the Bulls were as good a team reletive to the league as the Celtics were then? Or the fact that Bill Russell was a center and would only be able to play the 5 today. Or the most damning fact of all. Bill Russell was a defensive guy with limited offensive game. You're saying you replace the best scorer in history and one of the best defenders with a guy who's really just a good defender vs weak 60's white dudes who could not dribble or jump and he gets 6 rings? Its preposterous.

You didn't answer the question anyway. I'd rather be ignored I think. Do you have a reason other then his rings to think that?

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was a good no.2 option, but a no.2 option none the less.

Lets not forget this is the same guy who was part of that stacked Portland team that CHOKED (one of the biggest chokes in NBA playoffs history) away a championship versus the Lakers in game 7 of 2000.

The 2000 Blazers came back from a 1-3 deficit to nearly beat the best team of the decade (which featured the league's leading scorer and two other guys capable of ranking 3rd-10th in scoring). They were clearly the inferior team and it was amazing that they came so close to winning against them in the de facto finals. Pippen was 34 and way past his prime due to aging and numerous injuries by that point in his career. Does any legit basketball fan think the Blazers would have lost that series with prime Pippen? There would not even have been a game 7 with prime Pippen.

Pippen was a #2 option and nothing more? That myth was disproven in 1994 and 1995.

[iamgine]

Just think how good that team was in 1994, replace Luc Longley with (insert a better center). If a dominant center played instead of MJ, Bulls would have won in 4 or 5 games every series, instead of the 6-7 games on some series.

[Roundball_Rock]

True, but what about 92', 93', and 98'? In 1992 the Bulls almost lost in the ECSF, needing 7 games to beat the Knicks. In the finals they needed the legendary Pippen and bench scrubs comeback from 15 down in the fourth to close out the series in game 6. In 1993 the Knicks almost had the Bulls down 0-3 in the ECF but Pippen came up huge to keep the series alive in game 3, and in the finals the Suns were one shot away from forcing a game 7 in Phoenix. In 1998 the Bulls needed 7 games to beat the Pacers in the ECF and, once again, their finals opponent was one shot away from forcing a game 7 that would put the Bulls on the road. Who could fill in for MJ and win all three of these rings?

[Abraham Lincoln]

True, but what about 92', 93', and 98'? In 1992 the Bulls almost lost in the ECSF, needing 7 games to beat the Knicks. In the finals they needed the legendary Pippen and bench scrubs comeback from 15 down in the fourth to close out the series in game 6. In 1993 the Knicks almost had the Bulls down 0-3 in the ECF but Pippen came up huge to keep the series alive in game 3, and in the finals the Suns were one shot away from forcing a game 7 in Phoenix. In 1998 the Bulls needed 7 games to beat the Pacers in the ECF and, once again, their finals opponent was one shot away from forcing a game 7 that would put the Bulls on the road. Who could fill in for MJ and win all three of these rings?
http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/kobe_bryant-arton20892-240x240.jpg
:hammertime:

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: I like Kobe but get real.

[chitownsfinest]

Just think how good that team was in 1994, replace Luc Longley with (insert a better center). If a dominant center played instead of MJ, Bulls would have won in 4 or 5 games every series, instead of the 6-7 games on some series.
The Bulls beat teams with superior front courts so I do not see how that makes sense. 91 Pistons, 92/93 Knicks, 96 Magic, 96 Sonics, 97 Hawks, 97 Heat, and the 98 Pacers all had major front court advantages or a dominant center and still lost to the Bulls. Plus, the 96-98 Bulls were a perimeter style team and thrived on that style. I also do now see your point in stating that the Bulls would win in 4-5 games. What difference does the amount of games needed to win the series make? As long as you get the job done, you get the job done.

[indiefan23]

I was referring to the '92 series, where he had the best series of his career with Dan Majerle guarding him. The same mismatches that existed in '93 for Jordan, were present for Clyde (who is no where near as talented). Mis-wrote "that year", should have specified I was referring to the playoff series. Like I said, that Suns team was a perimeter players' wet dream.

Fatal 9, admit your stupidity or meet my ignore list. You jsut said the suns were the same team. They had Barkley when Jordan played them and he changed teh entire team. Not to mention that playing on a different team yourself will create an entirely different set of mis matches, totally. What garbage.

[indiefan23]

True, but what about 92', 93', and 98'? In 1992 the Bulls almost lost in the ECSF, needing 7 games to beat the Knicks. In the finals they needed the legendary Pippen and bench scrubs comeback from 15 down in the fourth to close out the series in game 6. In 1993 the Knicks almost had the Bulls down 0-3 in the ECF but Pippen came up huge to keep the series alive in game 3, and in the finals the Suns were one shot away from forcing a game 7 in Phoenix. In 1998 the Bulls needed 7 games to beat the Pacers in the ECF and, once again, their finals opponent was one shot away from forcing a game 7 that would put the Bulls on the road. Who could fill in for MJ and win all three of these rings?

Needing? Those Knicks were effing incredible. As were the pacers. And by 98 Jordan was startign to fade, but still beat them. Pippen was in his prime though. And those same pacers gave the knicks fits. Sheesh.

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course those were great teams. My point was that even with MJ the Bulls had trouble with them. Who can you replace MJ with and win all three times?

[Da_Realist]

:roll: Yes Dan guarded Jordan but Jordan was routinely doubled the entire series as well. Jordan was also assigned to guard Majerlie and KJ the entire series and both were fine offensive players meaning Jordan was not allowed to sag off on D. Dan did not shoot well in that series and Jordan locked down KJ when ever he was put on him. In game 3 KJ was torching B.J. Armstrong in the 4th Quater. Jordan guarded him the rest of the way including the 3 OT's and KJ only scored one fg on Jordan's D. Dan, in fact, had his best game when Jordan was not guarding him most the game in game 3. In the first two games, Jordan primarily guarded Dan and held him to 10/25 shooting the first two games. Also stop acting like Dan was a slouch on D. He was named all defensive team that season.

Throw in Jordan's amazing performance on both ends in the series and his clutch play and you have a series where Jordan was irreplaceable by any perimeter player in NBA history for that series. No on is doing 41/8/6 that series. Yes, a great player like KB would maybe put up a nice 32/6/6 but that would not be good enough to win the series. People seem to forget that MJ's 41/8/6 was just good enough to win the series. Look at the scoring spreads of the games and you will see what I mean. Also, factor in his overall clutchness in that series as well. In the first two games of the series, MJ averaged 12-14 pts in the 4th Q. In Game 2, he scored 10 pts in the final 6 mins including back to back clutch j's in the end of the game that gave the Bulls an 8 pt lead and iced the game. Those J's are big as Ainge scores 5 str8 pts to bring it back to 3. In game 3, Jordan plays clutch defense on KJ as well forcing a TO for a fast break opportunity to start the Bulls comeback in the 4th. He also hits Ho Grant with a pass for the game tying dunk in the 4th. He also hits two clutch baskets in the second ot to force a third ot. In game 4, MJ scores 12 in the 4th and hits the game clinching and 1 layup off Barkley to seal the game in the last minute. I don't even have to talk about game 6, when MJ scores every single point in the 4th Q with the exception of Paxson's three. It was MJ who hit the jumper to answer Dan's 3 and give the lead back to the Bulls. It was MJ who had the fast break lay up in the final minute of the game to cut the Suns lead down to 2, setting it up for Paxson to hit the 3. No one fu*king perimeter player could have combined what MJ did offensively/defensively and in the clutch that series. Stop acting like the Suns D gave everything to MJ in that series. You are trying too hard to diminish Jordan.

GREAT Post! :applause:

[zabuza666]

The other top 10 players and the # of titles I think they win:

KAJ - 7+
Wilt - 6+
Bird - 6+ (with no back injuries)
Shaq - 5
Duncan - 5
Kobe - 5
Hakeem - 5
Magic - 3
Russell - ?

Think about some of the combinations: Pippen & Bird, Pippen & Kareem :bowdown:

GTFO

[Rasheed1]

Dude, do you really think that Bill Russell is the same player today?


there is no true way to tell..... its as subjective as asking could kobe win 6 with the bulls...

for you to act taken back by the suggestion is dumb.....

Russell was a leader and a winner.... period....

he won 11 titles and competition was not as weak as some of today's so called fans pretend


Or that the Bulls were as good a team reletive to the league as the Celtics were then? Or the fact that Bill Russell was a center and would only be able to play the 5 today. Or the most damning fact of all. Bill Russell was a defensive guy with limited offensive game. You're saying you replace the best scorer in history and one of the best defenders with a guy who's really just a good defender vs weak 60's white dudes who could not dribble or jump and he gets 6 rings? Its preposterous.


the same tired typical argument about 'weak 60's white dudes'... :violin:

You dont just win 11 championships in any professional league....

if you are going to try and diminish what Russell accomplished... you need to do better than the 'weak 60's white dudes' argument


You didn't answer the question anyway. I'd rather be ignored I think. Do you have a reason other then his rings to think that?


I told you the reason already...

Bill Russell was a winner & competitor unlike any other player in the game besides Mj

:confusedshrug: not hard to understand

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at Jordan being credited for playing some sort of stellar defense on Kevin Johnson, when KJ was mediocre all playoffs. :oldlol: at anyone who thinks KJ was ever 100% in that season (*waits for Jordan stans to handpick game 3 where he played 60 minutes*).


Of course those were great teams. My point was that even with MJ the Bulls had trouble with them. Who can you replace MJ with and win all three times?
I think Kobe still wins 5 though. Like I said earlier, I don't think he has trouble in '91 (especially with Worthy and Scott hurt in the middle of the series, so if the series went 6 or 7 games, Kobe led Bulls would have the edge). He definitly doesn't win both years of '92 and '93 but has a good shot to win perhaps one. Definitely wins in '94. Wins again in '95 (assuming Grant stays). Wins in '96 and '97 where Bulls were probably the best offense/defense supporting cast. Depending on how Kobe ages (around 33-34), he'd probably win '98 as well. It's not like Jordan played on some godly level in the second three-peat. All in all, Kobe replacing him wins about 5 titles imo. I am assuming Kobe doing this at ages 26-33 (he turns 32 next year at this time, so it's not a stretch to think Kobe can play at a level like he did this year for another couple of years).

[zabuza666]

ITT: D-bags using eFG% as if it's a proper way of measuring a player's effectiveness.

[Da_Realist]

I think Kobe still wins 5 though. blah, blah, blah...

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Revelation]

I think Kobe still wins 5 though. Like I said earlier, I don't think he has trouble in '91 (especially with Worthy and Scott hurt in the middle of the series, so if the series went 6 or 7 games, Kobe led Bulls would have the edge). He definitly doesn't win both years of '92 and '93 but has a good shot to win perhaps one. Definitely wins in '94. Wins again in '95 (assuming Grant stays). Wins in '96 and '97 where Bulls were probably the best offense/defense supporting cast. Depending on how Kobe ages (around 33-34), he'd probably win '98 as well. It's not like Jordan played on some godly level in the second three-peat. All in all, Kobe replacing him wins about 5 titles imo. I am assuming Kobe doing this at ages 26-33 (he turns 32 next year at this time, so it's not a stretch to think Kobe can play at a level like he did this year for another couple of years).

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. If Kobe replaced Jordan in the years, 91,92,93, - 96,97,98, (6 seasons) he'd win 5 titles? OR are you saying that if Kobe Bryant played all eight season (91-98) he'd be able to win 5 titles? If the latter is true then doesn't it follow that if Jordan played all eight seasons he'd be able to win 7 or 8 titles?

[Fatal9]

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying. If Kobe replaced Jordan in the years, 91,92,93, - 96,97,98, (6 seasons) he'd win 5 titles? OR are you saying that if Kobe Bryant played all eight season (91-98) he'd be able to win 5 titles? If the latter is true then doesn't it follow that if Jordan played all eight seasons he'd be able to win 7 or 8 titles?
Correct.

[Da_Realist]

I think Kobe still wins 5 though. Like I said earlier, I don't think he has trouble in '91 (especially with Worthy and Scott hurt in the middle of the series, so if the series went 6 or 7 games, Kobe led Bulls would have the edge). He definitly doesn't win both years of '92 and '93 but has a good shot to win perhaps one. Definitely wins in '94. Wins again in '95 (assuming Grant stays). Wins in '96 and '97 where Bulls were probably the best offense/defense supporting cast. Depending on how Kobe ages (around 33-34), he'd probably win '98 as well. It's not like Jordan played on some godly level in the second three-peat. All in all, Kobe replacing him wins about 5 titles imo. I am assuming Kobe doing this at ages 26-33 (he turns 32 next year at this time, so it's not a stretch to think Kobe can play at a level like he did this year for another couple of years).

Dude, stop smoking that sh!t. Kobe won 1 title as the best player and you want me to believe he'd win 5 in the best defensive era in basketball? :oldlol: W...T...F? An era where he wouldn't get nearly as many calls, go to the line nearly as much and would probably be more "tested" than Scottie Pippen was (the defensive strategy -- forget Pippen...why not just cut off the head of the snake?)? A dude that got punked by Raja Bell would stand up to Oakley, Rodman and Mourning? :oldlol:

5 titles my @ss. :oldlol: The only way Kobe wins any of them is if he comes aboard after the team has already established itself, everyone already knows their roles and Pippen takes on even more of the "dirty" work so Kobe can go out and do what he does -- score. And even then, his bad shot selection, poor efficiency and his aversion to physical play would jeopardize their chances. And that's assuming he can keep his ego in check.

[Revelation]

Correct.

Ok, that makes sense. So, likewise, are you also admitting that if Jordan had played all 8 seasons he would most likely have 7 or 8 titles?

[Fatal9]

Ok, that makes sense. So, likewise, are you also admitting that if Jordan had played all 8 seasons he would most likely have 7 or 8 titles?
Yup. Who doesn't think this?! You're mistaking me for someone who is trying to diminish Jordan, when that's not the case. All those estimates I posted earlier were based on those players playing from '91-'98, injury free.


5 titles my @ss. :oldlol: The only way Kobe wins any of them is if he comes aboard after the team has already established itself, everyone already knows their roles and Pippen takes on even more of the "dirty" work so Kobe can go out and do what he does -- score. And even then, his bad shot selection, poor efficiency and his aversion to physical play would jeopardize their chances. And that's assuming he can keep his ego in check.
:oldlol: at "aversion to physical play", like Kobe didn't put up 30/7/6 with handchecking legal (when he wasn't even in his prime!), and :oldlol: at "getting touch fouls", like Jordan never got them. Scoring efficiency wise they are actually quite similar in the playoffs, when you look at MJ in the first three-peat to Kobe as #1 option.

I've never seen a 30/6/5 on 50-51 eFG% type of player get disrespected like this (those are Kobe's actual playoff/regular season numbers as a #1 option).

[Revelation]

I think some of you guys are being too hard on Fatal. Let me break down for you what he is saying as he seems to be purposely vague on certain points.

Assuming Kobe Bryant played on the Bulls team during the 1991-1998 seasons (8 full seasons) he would be able to win 4 or 5 titles. He is also saying that if Jordan played in all of those seasons he would most likely have 8 titles.

This is not all that ridiculous of a statement. Perhaps it is far-fetched considering we don't know how Pippen and Bryant would mesh. I personally think that a 90's Pippen/Kobe led Bulls team would most likely win 3 or 4 titles if they were lucky enough to play from 1991 to 1998.

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol: at "aversion to physical play", like Kobe didn't put up 30/7/6 with handchecking legal (when he wasn't even in his prime!), and :oldlol: at "getting touch fouls", like Jordan never got them. Scoring efficiency wise they are similar, from MJ in the first three-peat to Kobe as #1 option .

I've never seen a 30/6/5 on 50-51 eFG% type of player get disrespected like this (those are Kobe's actual playoff/regular season numbers as a #1 option).

That's cause he got thrown to the ground by Raja Bell in 06 vs the Suns then later quit in the 2nd half of Game 7. I surrender. No Mas. Name another superstar that would have let those Suns walk away with a W after being thrown to the ground like that. The Suns didn't even make it to the Finals.

Lost to those same defenseless Suns again in 07.

He hid defensively on Rondo most of the series against the Celtics while Ray Allen and Pierce were torching the Lakers in 08. He led a team that lost a 20+ lead in the 2nd half of a playoff game at home to fall down 3-1 and then he quit after the 1st quarter of Game 6. His team lost by 39 points. THIRTY NINE.

This all happened while Kobe was the #1 guy. There should be a stat for "Quit".

He's the best player on a championship team and he increases his Finals fg% when he shot 43% :eek: . He's been to the Finals 6 times and his overall fg% is LOWER than 43%. This guy wins 5 titles in the 90's? :oldlol: I think Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing win more titles as a result of Jordan's absence.

[NBASTATMAN]

Fatal 9, admit your stupidity or meet my ignore list. You jsut said the suns were the same team. They had Barkley when Jordan played them and he changed teh entire team. Not to mention that playing on a different team yourself will create an entirely different set of mis matches, totally. What garbage.


Yea.. I shut him down and he had nothing to write about regarding the eff shooting percentage of WADE.. Which is just as good as Kobe's after the no touch rules came into effect.. Then he wrote that the 92 SUNS TEAM WAS THE SAME AS 93...OK ...........

[NBASTATMAN]

Yup. Who doesn't think this?! You're mistaking me for someone who is trying to diminish Jordan, when that's not the case. All those estimates I posted earlier were based on those players playing from '91-'98, injury free.


:oldlol: at "aversion to physical play", like Kobe didn't put up 30/7/6 with handchecking legal (when he wasn't even in his prime!), and :oldlol: at "getting touch fouls", like Jordan never got them. Scoring efficiency wise they are actually quite similar in the playoffs, when you look at MJ in the first three-peat to Kobe as #1 option.

I've never seen a 30/6/5 on 50-51 eFG% type of player get disrespected like this (those are Kobe's actual playoff/regular season numbers as a #1 option).

WADE'S EFFECTIVE FG PERCENTAGE IS JUST AS GOOD AS KOBE WHEN WADE HAS BEEN HEALTHY AND PLAYED IN AT LEAST 14 PLAYOFF GAMES.. Wade wasn't even in his prime yet..

The one time that KOBE put up 30/7/6 and shot a good percentage was vs tHE SPURS in 2001..

The Spurs lost their starting two guard derek anderson in the playoffs that year.. KOBE got to go against that defensive stopper DANIELS.. :roll:

SHOULD we put WADE's numbers vs Kobe's vs the DETROIT PISTONS.. LOL......


What did Kobe shoot vs the SIXERS in the finals that same year? Arron Mckie defended kobe with a broken ankle....:roll:

[guy]

Yup. Who doesn't think this?! You're mistaking me for someone who is trying to diminish Jordan, when that's not the case. All those estimates I posted earlier were based on those players playing from '91-'98, injury free.


:oldlol: at "aversion to physical play", like Kobe didn't put up 30/7/6 with handchecking legal (when he wasn't even in his prime!), and :oldlol: at "getting touch fouls", like Jordan never got them. Scoring efficiency wise they are actually quite similar in the playoffs, when you look at MJ in the first three-peat to Kobe as #1 option.

I've never seen a 30/6/5 on 50-51 eFG% type of player get disrespected like this (those are Kobe's actual playoff/regular season numbers as a #1 option).

Please stop with this "as a #1 option" crap. Its completely stupid to act like Shaq held him back that much. Kobe might've had less stats, but he got to play for championship teams in a huge role, where he was probably the most important 2nd option ever, and if he was Jordan, he wouldn't have been considered a 2nd option for all 8 years. The fact is even if he didn't have Shaq at the time, he wasn't capable of consistently putting up the all-time great numbers Jordan put up. The first 4 years of his career he was nowhere near capable. The next 4 years, he was closer but still wasn't there. Seriously, in 2004, he averaged 24 ppg on 44%, then Shaq and a bunch of other players leave, and Kobe averages 28 ppg on 43%. That's still not Jordan #s. He only started to put up some great scoring numbers, still with less efficiency then Jordan, when he was in his absolute prime and on some really bad teams, and his other stats still weren't that impressive. Jordan put up much better numbers then Kobe did when he was playing on bad teams, and even when he was playing on some of the championship teams. Stop making those stupid excuses. Shaq helped Kobe's current standing amongst all-time greats .

[Revelation]

Please stop with this "as a #1 option" crap. Its completely stupid to act like Shaq held him back that much. Kobe might've had less stats, but he got to play for championship teams in a huge role, where he was probably the most important 2nd option ever, and if he was Jordan, he wouldn't have been considered a 2nd option for all 8 years. The fact is even if he didn't have Shaq at the time, he wasn't capable of consistently putting up the all-time great numbers Jordan put up. The first 4 years of his career he was nowhere near capable. The next 4 years, he was closer but still wasn't there. Seriously, in 2004, he averaged 24 ppg on 44%, then Shaq and a bunch of other players leave, and Kobe averages 28 ppg on 43%. That's still not Jordan #s. He only started to put up some great scoring numbers, still with less efficiency then Jordan, when he was in his absolute prime and on some really bad teams, and his other stats still weren't that impressive. Jordan put up much better numbers then Kobe did when he was playing on bad teams, and even when he was playing on some of the championship teams. Stop making those stupid excuses. Shaq helped Kobe's current standing amongst all-time greats .

Well said.

[97 bulls]

Please stop with this "as a #1 option" crap. Its completely stupid to act like Shaq held him back that much. Kobe might've had less stats, but he got to play for championship teams in a huge role, where he was probably the most important 2nd option ever, and if he was Jordan, he wouldn't have been considered a 2nd option for all 8 years. The fact is even if he didn't have Shaq at the time, he wasn't capable of consistently putting up the all-time great numbers Jordan put up. The first 4 years of his career he was nowhere near capable. The next 4 years, he was closer but still wasn't there. Seriously, in 2004, he averaged 24 ppg on 44%, then Shaq and a bunch of other players leave, and Kobe averages 28 ppg on 43%. That's still not Jordan #s. He only started to put up some great scoring numbers, still with less efficiency then Jordan, when he was in his absolute prime and on some really bad teams, and his other stats still weren't that impressive. Jordan put up much better numbers then Kobe did when he was playing on bad teams, and even when he was playing on some of the championship teams. Stop making those stupid excuses. Shaq helped Kobe's current standing amongst all-time greats .

nice job guy

[Samurai Swoosh]

Of course those were great teams. My point was that even with MJ the Bulls had trouble with them. Who can you replace MJ with and win all three times?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/v060550A.jpg

[phoenix18]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/v060550A.jpg
No, Nope,nah,non,nein,Nej, Nyet,Ne,Iie.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No, Nope,nah,non,nein,Nej, Nyet,Ne,Iie.
I was just looking for an excuse to post this picture.

But it's a valid choice as any from the ones mentioned.

Arguing this topic is irrelevant because none of it can be proved. So ...

I could say Nate Robinson or Darko Milicic and be as valid.

[phoenix18]

I was just looking for an excuse to post this picture.

But it's a valid choice as any from the ones mentioned.

Arguing this topic is irrelevant because none of it can be proved. So ...

I could say Nate Robinson or Darko Milicic and be as valid.
No there are answers that are wrong.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No there are answers that are wrong.
False. It's all hypothetical. Can't be proven, it's all subjective.

[Dengness9]

:confusedshrug:

This question can be asked about any championship team. Hakeem had the least help of all finals mvp's..

It's hard to tell though. MJ was awesome.



Hakeem had the least help??!!!! MJ retiring for a almost 2 seasons, is all the help in the world you'll ever need.

If it wasn't for that, Hakeem would be chillin w/ Chuck, Patrick Chewing, Karl and John, Reggie and the list could go on for a while of players who never won it all cuz they were in the MJ era.

[chitownsfinest]

KB's fg attempts per game 2000-2004: 20.34
KB's fg attempts per game 2005-2009 (first option yrs): 22.32
Why are we disqualifying his pre-first option years when he was still taking around the same amount of shots (including more shots then his bail out guy, Shaq)? He sure as hell was still shooting like he was the first option so he should get penalized at a first option type player.

[NBASTATMAN]

KB's fg attempts per game 2000-2004: 20.34
KB's fg attempts per game 2005-2009 (first option yrs): 22.32
Why are we disqualifying his pre-first option years when he was still taking around the same amount of shots (including more shots then his bail out guy, Shaq)? He sure as hell was still shooting like he was the first option so he should get penalized at a first option type player.


Obviously because it helps his agenda.. Wade is about equal to Kobe in eff shooting percentage after the no touch rules... IN 05 and 06 Wade shot .512 and .486.. Kobe in 08 and 09 shot .514 and .490... Wade was not even in his prime yet.. Wait till WADE gets a offensive team like Kobe has around him... In 05 Wade would have shot higher but he injured some ribs and he shot 7-20 in the last game vs Detroit...

[boozehound]

the correct answer (obviously) is none. No one.

[branslowski]

The Dream

Kobe

LeBron

Wilt

:pimp:

[nnn123]

If we're talkin about whether Kobe could do the same, you guys also got to take into account the longevity factor. MJ's team won 6 titles in 8 years, meaning MJ was dominant for a 8 year span. I can't find any 8 year span in which Kobe could do the same....you can't just pick the best version of Kobe, his best year, and use that to predict how many titles he would win. You also got to take into account the aging process. He was too young in his low-mid 20s to be the *leader* of those bulls teams IMO...I don't think he matured until 2007-08. Likewise, it's safe to assume we won't be quite as good as Jordan in his mid-30s, due to the fact that present Kobe is comparable to Jordan in the 2nd 3-peat. It's hard for me to find a 8 yr span of dominance

[NBASTATMAN]

The Dream

Kobe

LeBron

Wilt

:pimp:


WADE

STACKHOUSE

VINCE CARTER

NASH

:lol

[Roundball_Rock]

he won 11 titles and competition was not as weak as some of today's so called fans pretend

He won during a time where he only had to beat 7 or 8 teams to win a championship. Making the conference finals in the modern era>>a 60's ring.

With Kobe they would win in 91', 94', 96', and 97' easily but they would lose in 92', 98' and 93' would be a toss up. That series would go to 7 games and since Phoenix had HCA the Suns would probably win.

As to Jordan if he did not retire, the Bulls would win 7 out of 8 times from 1991-98. There was no way they were going to win in 95' without any interior defense or rebounding.

A lot of people are naming great players and saying they would win as many or nearly as many championships as Jordan did. How can this be, though, when these same players had much less success on much better teams?

I figured it would be interesting to look at the record in the NBA finals for top players since 1980 (I had to draw the line somewhere), as well as their records in the conference finals.

NBA finals

Michael Jordan 6-0
Scottie Pippen 6-0
Tim Duncan 4-0
Kareem 6-4
Magic Johnson 5-4
Larry Bird 3-2
Shaquille O'Neal 4-2
Kobe Bryant 4-2
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-1
Isiah Thomas 2-1
Dwayne Wade 1-0
Kevin Garnett 1-0

Clyde Drexler 1-2
Julius Erving 1-2 (1-3 all-time, he lost in 1977 too)
Karl Malone 0-3
Jason Kidd 0-2
Lebron James 0-1
Charles Barkley 0-1
Patrick Ewing 0-1
Allen Iverson 0-1
Dirk Nowitski 0-1


Conference Finals

Magic Johnson 9-1
Kobe Bryant 6-1
Michael Jordan 6-2
Kareem 10-4
Shaquille O'Neal 6-3
Scottie Pippen 6-3
Tim Duncan 4-2
Larry Bird 5-3
Clyde Drexler 3-2
Julius Erving 3-2 (5-3 all-time)
Isiah Thomas 3-2
Jason Kidd 2-0
Karl Malone 3-3
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-2
Patrick Ewing 2-2
Allen Iverson 1-0

Dwayne Wade 1-1
Dirk Nowitski 1-1
Kevin Garnett 1-1
Lebron James 1-1
Charles Barkley 1-2 (one loss came as a rookie)
Steve Nash 0-3

[NBASTATMAN]

He won during a time where he only had to beat 7 or 8 teams to win a championship. Making the conference finals in the modern era>>a 60's ring.

With Kobe they would win in 91', 94', 96', and 97' easily but they would lose in 92', 98' and 93' would be a toss up. That series would go to 7 games and since Phoenix had HCA the Suns would probably win.

As to Jordan if he did not retire, the Bulls would win 7 out of 8 times from 1991-98. There was no way they were going to win in 95' without any interior defense or rebounding.

A lot of people are naming great players and saying they would win as many or nearly as many championships as Jordan did. How can this be, though, when these same players had much less success on much better teams?

I figured it would be interesting to look at the record in the NBA finals for top players since 1980 (I had to draw the line somewhere), as well as their records in the conference finals.

NBA finals

Michael Jordan 6-0
Scottie Pippen 6-0
Tim Duncan 4-0
Kareem 6-4
Magic Johnson 5-4
Larry Bird 3-2
Shaquille O'Neal 4-2
Kobe Bryant 4-2
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-1
Isiah Thomas 2-1
Dwayne Wade 1-0
Kevin Garnett 1-0

Clyde Drexler 1-2
Julius Erving 1-2 (1-3 all-time, he lost in 1977 too)
Karl Malone 0-3
Jason Kidd 0-2
Lebron James 0-1
Charles Barkley 0-1
Patrick Ewing 0-1
Allen Iverson 0-1
Dirk Nowitski 0-1


Conference Finals

Magic Johnson 9-1
Kobe Bryant 6-1
Michael Jordan 6-2
Kareem 10-4
Shaquille O'Neal 6-3
Scottie Pippen 6-3
Tim Duncan 4-2
Larry Bird 5-3
Clyde Drexler 3-2
Julius Erving 3-2 (5-3 all-time)
Isiah Thomas 3-2
Jason Kidd 2-0
Karl Malone 3-3
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-2
Patrick Ewing 2-2
Allen Iverson 1-0

Dwayne Wade 1-1
Dirk Nowitski 1-1
Kevin Garnett 1-1
Lebron James 1-1
Charles Barkley 1-2 (one loss came as a rookie)
Steve Nash 0-3



Very good post..

[chitownsfinest]

He won during a time where he only had to beat 7 or 8 teams to win a championship. Making the conference finals in the modern era>>a 60's ring.

With Kobe they would win in 91', 94', 96', and 97' easily but they would lose in 92', 98' and 93' would be a toss up. That series would go to 7 games and since Phoenix had HCA the Suns would probably win.

As to Jordan if he did not retire, the Bulls would win 7 out of 8 times from 1991-98. There was no way they were going to win in 95' without any interior defense or rebounding.

A lot of people are naming great players and saying they would win as many or nearly as many championships as Jordan did. How can this be, though, when these same players had much less success on much better teams?

I figured it would be interesting to look at the record in the NBA finals for top players since 1980 (I had to draw the line somewhere), as well as their records in the conference finals.

NBA finals

Michael Jordan 6-0
Scottie Pippen 6-0
Tim Duncan 4-0
Kareem 6-4
Magic Johnson 5-4
Larry Bird 3-2
Shaquille O'Neal 4-2
Kobe Bryant 4-2
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-1
Isiah Thomas 2-1
Dwayne Wade 1-0
Kevin Garnett 1-0

Clyde Drexler 1-2
Julius Erving 1-2 (1-3 all-time, he lost in 1977 too)
Karl Malone 0-3
Jason Kidd 0-2
Lebron James 0-1
Charles Barkley 0-1
Patrick Ewing 0-1
Allen Iverson 0-1
Dirk Nowitski 0-1


Conference Finals

Magic Johnson 9-1
Kobe Bryant 6-1
Michael Jordan 6-2
Kareem 10-4
Shaquille O'Neal 6-3
Scottie Pippen 6-3
Tim Duncan 4-2
Larry Bird 5-3
Clyde Drexler 3-2
Julius Erving 3-2 (5-3 all-time)
Isiah Thomas 3-2
Jason Kidd 2-0
Karl Malone 3-3
Hakeem Olajuwon 2-2
Patrick Ewing 2-2
Allen Iverson 1-0

Dwayne Wade 1-1
Dirk Nowitski 1-1
Kevin Garnett 1-1
Lebron James 1-1
Charles Barkley 1-2 (one loss came as a rookie)
Steve Nash 0-3
Good post and I agree with Kobe winning in 94 and 96, but 91 has a big question mark and I do not see him winning in 97. Let us not forget that MJ played the facilitator role amazingly in the playoffs and dominated on scoring at the same time. Can Kobe do that consistently throughout the playoffs like MJ did? MJ averaged 8.4 assists per game in that yrs playoffs and averaged over 10 apg in the finals while scoring 30+ per game as well on amazing efficiency. Is it a coincidence that when MJ had the most apg in any of his finals series, so many role players stepped up? Paxson played amazing that series and was extremely clutch in game 5 particularly because of MJ's willingness to pass to him off screens and doubles. Ho Grant/Scottie Williams also played really good in that yrs finals as well. The Bulls went 15-2 in that yrs playoffs and would have been 15-0 possibly if not for Sam Perkins and Hershew Hawkins hitting game winners against the Bulls. The Bulls dominance was mostly because of MJ's great all around play. Does Kobe put up those type of numbers?

97 speaks for itself really. Pip was banged up from the Miami series and was not himself even though he did put up a nice 20/8/4 stat line. You mentioned in the other thread how badly Toni's shot was off those playoffs due an injury he suffered in the season and Rodman was out of sync in terms of rebounding (Jordan nearly out rebounded him in those playoffs). Does Kobe win with all those circumstances burdening him? Can Kobe take the role of lead scorer and take care of rebounding duties as well? Does Kobe do what MJ did in those finals which was an extremely close series if you look at the scores of the games in that series. Look at what MJ did in each of those wins: Game 1 he hit the game winner, game 2 he put up a resounding 38/13/9, leading his team in pts/rebs/assts along with no one else on his team scoring more then 15. Game 5 speaks for it self as it was the famous flu game and it was MJ's 38/7/5 that spurred the Bulls to only a two point victory. Not to mention, him hitting the go ahead three in the final minute to put the Bulls ahead. Game 6, he put up a 39/11/4 and passed to Kerr for the game winning shot off a double. Does KB replicate what MJ did in 97 with all the circumstance on him? I honestly do not think so.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good post. You changed my opinion. Without MJ the Bulls would have lost in 97', although I think they would have still made it to the finals. People forget how great the Malone/Stockton Jazz teams were. They did not make it to two consecutive finals by chance. They beat a stacked Hakeem/Drexler/Barkley team to get there the first time.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Tim Duncan (replaces Luc Longley)
Dennis Rodman
Kukoc
Pippen
Harper

I think that team could win a couple of championships.

Luc Longley
Dennis Rodman
Kukoc
Pippen
Magic Johnson

That would be another really strong team.

But, IMO, Jordan was the only one that would win 6 titles. That team was built perfectly for Jordan.

[beau_boy04]

nice video of Hakeem vs Jordan :cheers: