Kareem: The Case for GOAT

[Fatal9]

I think the more people learn about Kareem's career, the stronger his argument for GOAT becomes. Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first: 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 10X all NBA first (two seasons he missed were when he broke his hand in '75 and '78), 2X Finals MVP (though it really is 3 considering he was legendary in the 1980 finals - plus Finals MVP is a pretty useless award), 5X All Second, 5X all first defensive (more competition for centers here), 6X all defensive second, 19X all-star (though his last couple weren't really "all-star" type of season), most points in NBA history, easily the longest lasting elite player in history as well.

The predictable argument usually will be (especially by Jordan fans) that he won only 3 championships as the man. To that you can really say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he

[Abraham Lincoln]

Wilt Chamberlain be the greatest.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Not gonna read your whole post, but he is CERTAINLY worthy of GOAT status.
Most MVPs of any player ever (when they were voted on by non-fans).
AND, importantly,
played against the toughest competion of all time...and excelled against them.

[miles berg]

He is, at worst, the 2nd greatest of all time.

Absolute greatness.

[Fatal9]

Wilt Chamberlain be the greatest.
Tough call between him or Kareem for me (if we consider just peak play, value to the team etc.). Both a cut above Jordan imo.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Tough call between him or Kareem for me (if we consider just peak play, value to the team etc.). Both a cut above Jordan imo.

There be no argument from the wise man, alas Jabbar be one of the true wise men of the game.

Here be the greatest players of all time.

http://i40.tinypic.com/33kb32w.jpg

[nnn123]

There be no argument from the wise man, alas Jabbar be one of the true wise men of the game.

Here be the greatest players of all time.

http://i40.tinypic.com/33kb32w.jpg



No Shaquille?

[Abraham Lincoln]

No Shaquille?
Yes. Forgot him. He be next in line.

[DonDadda59]

Tough call between him or Kareem for me (if we consider just peak play, value to the team etc.). Both a cut above Jordan imo.

:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:

[xcesswee]

I wish I could watch kareem in his prime. Good analysis fatal. I still have Jordan as the GOAT, but you can certainly make a case for Kareem or maybe even Wilt. It's too bad today's league has too many hyped up centers that fall short compared to kareem, wilt, hakeem, and shaq.

[xcesswee]

:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:

Haha I certainly notice that Fatal's agenda isn't necessarily to degrade jordan, but to provoke guys like Bruce.

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan is still the greatest player of all time.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar won 5 of his 6 MVP Trophies in the 1970's, where some of the greatest players in Professional Basketball were playing in the American Basketball Association.

[Fatal9]

On a conventional list, Jordan is GOAT (he is on mine). I'd say if we take a more intelligent and rigorous approach, Wilt and Kareem are greater, with Kareem being the GOAT for me at least.


:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:
Why is this nitwit allowed to post on these forums? Ever contributed anything of value?

[gts]

I have always felt Kareem is the best the game has ever seen

HOF Induction 1995

3 time NYC Championships at Power Memorial High School

UCLA 1967, 1968, 1969 NCAA Division 1 Championships

1966-67 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA Naismith Men's College Player of the Year Award
1966-67 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1967-68 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1968-69 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1966-67 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy
1967-68 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy

College Stats and Averages *
Pt's 2,325 26.4 ppg
Rbds. 1,367 15.5 rpg
*no assists/blks/stls kept

6 NBA Championship Titles 1971,1980, 82, 85, 87. 88
10 Finals Appearences
237 Playoff games

1969-70 NBA Rookie of the Year
1970-71 NBA Finals MVP
1970-71 NBA MVP
1971-72 NBA MVP
1973-74 NBA MVP
1975-76 NBA MVP
1976-77 NBA MVP
1979-80 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA Finals MVP

1969-70 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1974-75 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1975-76 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1976-77 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1978-79 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)

1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1975-76 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1976-77 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1978-79 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


All-Star Games
1970 NBA
1971 NBA
1972 NBA
1973 NBA
1974 NBA
1975 NBA
1976 NBA
1977 NBA
1979 NBA
1980 NBA
1981 NBA
1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1989 NBA
Missed 1978 due to injury, elected but DNP

20 NBA Seasons 1560 Games Total
1969-70 NBA 82
1970-71 NBA 82
1975-76 NBA 82
1976-77 NBA 82
1979-80 NBA 82
1973-74 NBA 81
1971-72 NBA 81
1978-79 NBA 80
1980-81 NBA 80
1983-84 NBA 80
1987-88 NBA 80
1982-83 NBA 79
1984-85 NBA 79
1985-86 NBA 79
1986-87 NBA 78
1972-73 NBA 76
1981-82 NBA 76
1988-89 NBA 74
1974-75 NBA 65
1977-78 NBA 62

NBA Records
Most points - 38,387
Most minutes played 57,446
Most field goals made 15,837
Most field goals attempted 28,307
Most All-Star selections 19
Most All-Star games played 18
Most Personal Fouls 4657


Career Stat Line Totals and Averages
Pt's 38,387
Rebounds 17,440
Assists 5,660
Steals 1,160
Blocks 3,189

Points Per Game
1970-71 NBA 31.7 (1)
1971-72 NBA 34.8 (1)
1969-70 NBA 28.8 (2)
1972-73 NBA 30.2 (2)
1975-76 NBA 27.7 (2)
1973-74 NBA 27.0 (3)
1974-75 NBA 30.0 (3)
1976-77 NBA 26.2 (3)

Rebounds Per Game
1975-76 NBA 16.9 (1)
1976-77 NBA 13.3 (2)
1969-70 NBA 14.5 (3)
1971-72 NBA 16.6 (3)
1978-79 NBA 12.8 (3)

Blocks Per Game
1974-75 NBA 3.3 (1)
1975-76 NBA 4.1 (1)
1978-79 NBA 4.0 (1)
1979-80 NBA 3.4 (1)
1973-74 NBA 3.5 (2)
1976-77 NBA 3.2 (2)
1977-78 NBA 3.0 (2)
1980-81 NBA 2.9 (3)
1981-82 NBA 2.7 (3)

Player Efficiency Rating
1970-71 NBA 29.0 (1)
1971-72 NBA 29.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 28.5 (1)
1974-75 NBA 26.4 (1)
1975-76 NBA 27.2 (1)
1976-77 NBA 27.8 (1)
1977-78 NBA 29.2 (1)
1978-79 NBA 25.5 (1)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1969-70 NBA 22.5 (2)
1973-74 NBA 24.4 (2)
1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)

Win Shares
1973-74 NBA 18.0 (1)
1975-76 NBA 17.3 (1)
1976-77 NBA 17.5 (1)
1978-79 NBA 14.4 (1)
1979-80 NBA 15.0 (1)
1980-81 NBA 14.4 (1)

Averages
Pts 24.6 on 56%
Rbs.11.2
Asst. 3.6
Blks. 2.6
Stls. .9

Playoff Averages (237 games)
Pts. 24.3 on 53%
Rbs. 10.5
Asst. 3.2
Blks. 2.1
Stls. .8

[Butters]

you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:

This. MJ's face will be on the paddle.

[BallersTalk]

Well, if we take an intelligent approach, then Kobe's not on the top 20. Let's just use stupid approaches instead.

[monkeypox]

Yeah, Kareems entire career has been dominance. Jordan wasn't that special before the NBA. He made that game winning shot at college but he wasn't the teams mvp, and once James Worthy left his team failed to win the championship again. If I remember correctly he was cut from his high school team and his coach didn't think he'd be a great player. If you're looking at entire basketball career, Kareem is the GOAT. Won at every level there was to win, won NBA championships with two different teams.

[Duncan21formvp]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]I think the more people learn about Kareem's career, the stronger his argument for GOAT becomes. Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first: 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 10X all NBA first (two seasons he missed were when he broke his hand in '75 and '78), 2X Finals MVP (though it really is 3 considering he was legendary in the 1980 finals - plus Finals MVP is a pretty useless award), 5X All Second, 5X all first defensive (more competition for centers here), 6X all defensive second, 19X all-star (though his last couple weren't really "all-star" type of season), most points in NBA history, easily the longest lasting elite player in history as well.

The predictable argument usually will be (especially by Jordan fans) that he won only 3 championships as the man. To that you can really say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he

[IcanzIIravor]

I have Kareem and Wilt as the two Titans that stand above everyone else.

[Fatal9]

Well, if we take an intelligent approach, then Kobe's not on the top 20. Let's just use stupid approaches instead.
I disagree. But still, who cares about Kobe?:confusedshrug:

We are talking about players on a different level of greatness, why is he even being brought up?

[Da_Realist]

:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:
Now THIS is the funniest thing I've read all day! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[rfm767]

I disagree. But still, who cares about Kobe?:confusedshrug:

We are talking about players on a different level of greatness, why is he even being brought up?

hater alert.

[Lebron23]

http://imgcache.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAEK001_16x20.jpg

And I'd take Prime Magic Johnson over Lew Alcindor.

Magic was clearly the best player of the Showtime Lakers in the 1980's.

3x NBA Finals MVP
3x NBA Regular Season MVP
Led the NBA in Assists in the 1980's
Won the NBA Finals MVP when he was a 20 yrs.old Rookie.

[Lebron23]

Not sure if that is a shot at him being a Muslim convert but his name is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.


Because Prime Kareem Abdul Jabbar played in the 1970's, and he won an NBA Championship with Oscar Robertson.

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are the best players in the 1980's.

1980's > 1970's and 1990's.

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]I think the more people learn about Kareem's career, the stronger his argument for GOAT becomes. Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first: 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 10X all NBA first (two seasons he missed were when he broke his hand in '75 and '78), 2X Finals MVP (though it really is 3 considering he was legendary in the 1980 finals - plus Finals MVP is a pretty useless award), 5X All Second, 5X all first defensive (more competition for centers here), 6X all defensive second, 19X all-star (though his last couple weren't really "all-star" type of season), most points in NBA history, easily the longest lasting elite player in history as well.

The predictable argument usually will be (especially by Jordan fans) that he won only 3 championships as the man. To that you can really say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:


This one is funny as hell... :roll:

[catch24]

Debatable for sure, but when you add everything together:

Jordan has the best combination of stats, accomplishments, honors, mvps, finals mvps, records, playoff performances, clutch performances, and rings of any player to ever play. Jordan is no doubt the GOAT for me at least...

[NuggetsFan]

Has a strong case and I don't think it'd be a problem if anyone considered him the GOAT. I got Jordan personally, but I wasn't around when KAJ was playing so never got too see much of him.

[xcesswee]

On a conventional list, Jordan is GOAT (he is on mine). I'd say if we take a more intelligent and rigorous approach, Wilt and Kareem are greater, with Kareem being the GOAT for me at least.


I mean the same can be said about Jordan too. It's not like the man luckboxed his way into 6 championships 5 mvps 6 final mvps, some of the most memorable playoff performances (espec. championships) of all time, and incredible stats. You can make a case for Kareem, Wilt, or MJ.

[JustinJDW]

Yes. Forgot him. He be next in line.Then it's Timmy D. Here is my list.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Tim Duncan

I really don't think Hakeem should be placed above Shaq and Timmy. That's just my opinion. Timmy and Shaq both have 4 Rings and Hakeem has half of that, and he may only have those because MJ took a break.

[Fatal9]

Next time anyone says Jordan is clear cut GOAT, you all are entitled to laugh at them. Jordan just barely by the slightest of margins edges out Kareem and Wilt, based really only on the fact that he was in a better situation than them during his prime years. Kareem and Wilt were both better players (big men, by default you take them over Jordan really) and played in a more competitive league.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

http://imgcache.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAEK001_16x20.jpg

And I'd take Prime Magic Johnson over Lew Alcindor.

Magic was clearly the best player of the Showtime Lakers in the 1980's.

3x NBA Finals MVP
3x NBA Regular Season MVP
Led the NBA in Assists in the 1980's
Won the NBA Finals MVP when he was a 20 yrs.old Rookie.

Magic is my boy...BUT, you would be passing on...drumroll please...
35 ppg
14 rbd
4 blocks

that's insane sh!t right there.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Next time anyone says Jordan is clear cut GOAT, you all are entitled to laugh at them. Jordan just barely by the slightest of margins edges out Kareem and Wilt, based really only on the fact that he was in a better situation than them during his prime years. Kareem and Wilt were both better players (big men, by default you take them over Jordan really) and played in a more competitive league.

Jordan only edges out ANYBODY based merely on opinion.
Wilt. Russell. KAREEM....they all "edge out" MJ.... in some people's very valid opinions.

[Duncan21formvp]

Next time anyone says Jordan is clear cut GOAT, you all are entitled to laugh at them. Jordan just barely by the slightest of margins edges out Kareem and Wilt, based really only on the fact that he was in a better situation than them during his prime years. Kareem and Wilt were both better players (big men, by default you take them over Jordan really) and played in a more competitive league.

No one is truly the GOAT in any sport. The guy who is considered GOAT however is the guy with the best case to be GOAT and that is MJ. Reason being is no one has the combination of winning, efficiency, stats, accolades and played both ends of the court. Jordan is near the top in every one of them and that is what makes him the GOAT.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

No one is truly the GOAT in any sport. The guy who is considered GOAT however is the guy with the best case to be GOAT and that is MJ. Reason being is no one has the combination of winning, efficiency, stats, accolades and played both ends of the court. Jordan is near the top in every one of them and that is what makes him the GOAT.

Here ya go:

3 time NYC Championships at Power Memorial High School

UCLA 1967, 1968, 1969 NCAA Division 1 Championships

1966-67 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA AP Player of the Year
1968-69 NCAA Naismith Men's College Player of the Year Award
1966-67 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1967-68 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1968-69 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1966-67 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy
1967-68 USBWA College Player of the Year aka Oscar Robertson Trophy

College Stats and Averages *
Pt's 2,325 26.4 ppg
Rbds. 1,367 15.5 rpg
*no assists/blks/stls kept

6 NBA Championship Titles 1971,1980, 82, 85, 87. 88
10 Finals Appearences
237 Playoff games

1969-70 NBA Rookie of the Year
1970-71 NBA Finals MVP
1970-71 NBA MVP
1971-72 NBA MVP
1973-74 NBA MVP
1975-76 NBA MVP
1976-77 NBA MVP
1979-80 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA Finals MVP

1969-70 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1970-71 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1971-72 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1972-73 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1973-74 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1974-75 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1975-76 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1976-77 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1978-79 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-Defensive (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)

1969-70 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1969-70 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1970-71 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1975-76 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1976-77 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1977-78 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1978-79 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (2nd)


All-Star Games
1970 NBA
1971 NBA
1972 NBA
1973 NBA
1974 NBA
1975 NBA
1976 NBA
1977 NBA
1979 NBA
1980 NBA
1981 NBA
1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1989 NBA
Missed 1978 due to injury, elected but DNP

20 NBA Seasons 1560 Games Total
1969-70 NBA 82
1970-71 NBA 82
1975-76 NBA 82
1976-77 NBA 82
1979-80 NBA 82
1973-74 NBA 81
1971-72 NBA 81
1978-79 NBA 80
1980-81 NBA 80
1983-84 NBA 80
1987-88 NBA 80
1982-83 NBA 79
1984-85 NBA 79
1985-86 NBA 79
1986-87 NBA 78
1972-73 NBA 76
1981-82 NBA 76
1988-89 NBA 74
1974-75 NBA 65
1977-78 NBA 62

NBA Records
Most points - 38,387
Most minutes played 57,446
Most field goals made 15,837
Most field goals attempted 28,307
Most All-Star selections 19
Most All-Star games played 18
Most Personal Fouls 4657


Career Stat Line Totals and Averages
Pt's 38,387
Rebounds 17,440
Assists 5,660
Steals 1,160
Blocks 3,189

Points Per Game
1970-71 NBA 31.7 (1)
1971-72 NBA 34.8 (1)
1969-70 NBA 28.8 (2)
1972-73 NBA 30.2 (2)
1975-76 NBA 27.7 (2)
1973-74 NBA 27.0 (3)
1974-75 NBA 30.0 (3)
1976-77 NBA 26.2 (3)

Rebounds Per Game
1975-76 NBA 16.9 (1)
1976-77 NBA 13.3 (2)
1969-70 NBA 14.5 (3)
1971-72 NBA 16.6 (3)
1978-79 NBA 12.8 (3)

Blocks Per Game
1974-75 NBA 3.3 (1)
1975-76 NBA 4.1 (1)
1978-79 NBA 4.0 (1)
1979-80 NBA 3.4 (1)
1973-74 NBA 3.5 (2)
1976-77 NBA 3.2 (2)
1977-78 NBA 3.0 (2)
1980-81 NBA 2.9 (3)
1981-82 NBA 2.7 (3)

Player Efficiency Rating
1970-71 NBA 29.0 (1)
1971-72 NBA 29.9 (1)
1972-73 NBA 28.5 (1)
1974-75 NBA 26.4 (1)
1975-76 NBA 27.2 (1)
1976-77 NBA 27.8 (1)
1977-78 NBA 29.2 (1)
1978-79 NBA 25.5 (1)
1980-81 NBA 25.5 (1)
1969-70 NBA 22.5 (2)
1973-74 NBA 24.4 (2)
1979-80 NBA 25.3 (2)

Win Shares
1973-74 NBA 18.0 (1)
1975-76 NBA 17.3 (1)
1976-77 NBA 17.5 (1)
1978-79 NBA 14.4 (1)
1979-80 NBA 15.0 (1)
1980-81 NBA 14.4 (1)

Averages
Pts 24.6 on 56%
Rbs.11.2
Asst. 3.6
Blks. 2.6
Stls. .9

Playoff Averages (237 games)
Pts. 24.3 on 53%
Rbs. 10.5
Asst. 3.2
Blks. 2.1
Stls. .8

[Butters]

No one is truly the GOAT in any sport.

Have a hotdog from the Babe and have a chat with Wanye Gretzky:cheers:

[Fatal9]

Jordan only edges out ANYBODY based merely on opinion.
Wilt. Russell. KAREEM....they all "edge out" MJ.... in some people's very valid opinions.
Yup. If we value winning Russell is GOAT. If we value peak play Wilt/Kareem are GOAT. If we value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT (6 rings + 10 finals appearances in 70s and 80s is more impressive than 6 rings in the 90s imo).

The insane thing is bleedingpurple, that you are actually selling kareem short by saying 35/14/4 blocks. You must also consider his excellent passing ability which routinely got him 4-5 assists per game. In his prime we are talking 35/17/5/4 on 55-57% (all NBA first caliber defense too). People who try to play the pace card need to realize there is only a 10-15% difference in pace at the time of Kareem's prime and the early 90s Bulls, which really isn't much (would bring down his averages to something like 34/15/4/4, which is better than anything Jordan could come up with in his prime).

Do you see the value Kareem added to those Laker and Bucks teams? When he got injured they were 3-14 in the '75 season and on pace to win 15-20 wins max. With him they won at a rate of about 55 wins! That is just mind-boggling.

Jordan has done nothing to separate himself from someone like Kareem, but he's always passed along as the unquestioned greatest. Very misleading, especially for the younger generation, as evidenced by this forum.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Yup. If we value winning Russell is GOAT. If we value peak play Wilt/Kareem are GOAT. If we value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT (6 rings + 10 finals appearances in 70s and 80s is more impressive than 6 rings in the 90s imo).

The insane thing is bleedingpurple, that you are actually selling kareem short by saying 35/14/4 blocks. You must also consider his excellent passing ability which routinely got him 4-5 assists per game. In his prime we are talking 35/17/5/4 on 55-57% (all NBA first caliber defense too). People who try to play the pace card need to realize there is only a 10-15% difference in pace at the time of Kareem's prime and the early 90s Bulls, which really isn't much (would bring down his averages to something like 34/15/4/4, which is better than anything Jordan could come up with in his prime).

Do you see the value Kareem added to those Laker and Bucks teams? When he got injured they were 3-14 in the '75 season and on pace to win 15-20 wins max. With him they won at a rate of about 55 wins! That is just mind-boggling.

Jordan has done nothing to separate himself from someone like Kareem, but he's always passed along as the unquestioned greatest. Very misleading, especially for the younger generation, as evidenced by this forum.

100% correct.
and add to that:
Kareem dominated over TWO DECADES...two eras, if you will. First team ALL-NBA in two different eras. AND, imho, those were the two toughest eras.

[try getting clubbed by Maurice Lucas one night and then Dave Cowens the next]

[plowking]

Only Laker fans will try to put a case for Magic or Kareem being better than Jordan.

Fact is, Michael won championships with worse teams, he was the best player every time in the finals, he dominated his competition to the extent if not further than Kareem/Wilt and he was the sure shot number 1 player in the league for just about every year he was in the league.

Furthermore, once the competition started to get better, Kareem's stats dropped off. Is it a coincidence that his numbers got worse during the time most would be in their prime, than what they were 3 years into the league?

[Fatal9]

Only Laker fans will try to put a case for Magic or Kareem being better than Jordan.

Fact is, Michael won championships with worse teams, he was the best player every time in the finals, he dominated his competition to the extent if not further than Kareem/Wilt and he was the sure shot number 1 player in the league for just about every year he was in the league.

Furthermore, once the competition started to get better, Kareem's stats dropped off. Is it a coincidence that his numbers got worse during the time most would be in their prime, than what they were 3 years into the league?
Yea, I'm sure aging had nothing to do with it right?

LOL at "competition getting tougher, Kareem fell off", ever watched the '80 finals? Or hell even the '85 finals where people ruled Kareem out as being "too old" and then he drops 30/17/8 vs. the Celtics at the age of 37! Follows that up with 26/14/7 on just 13 shots! 37 year old Kareem did this in like 30 minutes of playing time a game, and yet you are questioning prime Kareem?! :oldlol:

Magic has no case. To me he is always in the second tier (ie. positions 5-10).

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Only Laker fans will try to put a case for Magic or Kareem being better than Jordan.

Fact is, Michael won championships with worse teams, he was the best player every time in the finals, he dominated his competition to the extent if not further than Kareem/Wilt and he was the sure shot number 1 player in the league for just about every year he was in the league.

Furthermore, once the competition started to get better, Kareem's stats dropped off. Is it a coincidence that his numbers got worse during the time most would be in their prime, than what they were 3 years into the league?

sorry plowking, but this is just outright misguided...as Fatal9 pointed out above.
also, worse teams? I would agree that MJ/Pip/Rodman is worse than KAJ/Magic/Worthy, but what do you expect KAJ to do about that? that's the hand he was dealt...and he won championships with it. Can't ask for more than that...EXCEPT, he won against MUCH MUCH tougher competition than MJ EVER did.

[Duncan21formvp]

sorry plowking, but this is just outright misguided...as Fatal9 pointed out above.
also, worse teams? I would agree that MJ/Pip/Rodman is worse than KAJ/Magic/Worthy, but what do you expect KAJ to do about that? that's the hand he was dealt...and he won championships with it. Can't ask for more than that...EXCEPT, he won against MUCH MUCH tougher competition than MJ EVER did.

He got his ass kicked as well to teams below .500. Kareem not only ended up with less finals mvp's, but he ended up with less than his own teammate. In fact for his last 2 titles he was 3rd best on the team.

[Fatal9]

Relative to the rest of the league MJ had the best core in the league for a good 7-8 years. Kareem had what, Oscar on his last legs? This was especially obvious in the '74 season. After that, prime Kareem never really got the teams to compete, like Jordan had, or Bird/Magic had. Guy was literally leading 15-20 win teams to 50+ wins for the later portion of the 70s.

If I'm a Laker fan, I'm pissed at how the media has drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the great players. What a shame that these careers aren't getting the respect they deserve. The GOAT title in basketball is closer and tighter than in any other major North American sports (other than NFL because of all the different positions), but you wouldn't know it.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

He got his ass kicked as well to teams below .500. Kareem not only ended up with less finals mvp's, but he ended up with less than his own teammate. In fact for his last 2 titles he was 3rd best on the team.

you mean, when he was 38 years old?
how was MJ doing when he was 38?

[chitownsfinest]

Relative to the rest of the league MJ had the best core in the league for a good 7-8 years. Kareem had what, Oscar on his last legs? This was especially obvious in the '74 season. After that, prime Kareem never really got the teams to compete, like Jordan had, or Bird/Magic had. Guy was literally leading 15-20 win teams to 50+ wins for the later portion of the 70s.

If I'm a Laker fan, I'm pissed at how the media has drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the great players. What a shame that these careers aren't getting the respect they deserve. The GOAT title in basketball is closer and tighter than in any other major North American sports (other than NFL because of all the different positions), but you wouldn't know it.
96 Sonics, 96 Magic, 97 Heat, 97 Hawks, 91 Pistons, 92 Blazers, and the 93 Suns all had close to or better talent then the Bulls did in the years they faced them.

[Duncan21formvp]

you mean, when he was 38 years old?
how was MJ doing when he was 38?

In 1981 after he won his last MVP. Also Kareem lost 5 playoff series where he had homecourt advantage.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

96 Sonics, 96 Magic, 97 Heat, 97 Hawks, 91 Pistons, 92 Blazers, and the 93 Suns all had close to or better talent then the Bulls did in the years they faced them.

I would def disagree with that. maybe the first 3peat, but not the 2nd.

[Fatal9]

96 Sonics, 96 Magic, 97 Heat, 97 Hawks, 91 Pistons, 92 Blazers, and the 93 Suns all had close to or better talent then the Bulls did in the years they faced them.
:oldlol: at '93 Suns when KJ barely was ever 100% in that season.

:oldlol: at '91 Pistons, with half the core being near retirement and barely even making it out of the first round.

:roll: at '97 Hawks.

'96 Magic were too young.

'96 Sonics. Yea, I guess Mike getting 27/5/4 on 41% was too much for them to handle.

'92 Blazers, perhaps more "talented", but a team that always was thought to underachieve for a good 3-4 year span.

The thing is, Jordan stans have said in the past that the second three peat was had a core/talent (which is true), but then you remember that the first three-peat core outside of MJ won 55 games. Things just don't tie up here. This ever present agenda to diminish MJ's teammates is getting exposed over and over again.

[Duncan21formvp]

Relative to the rest of the league MJ had the best core in the league for a good 7-8 years. Kareem had what, Oscar on his last legs? This was especially obvious in the '74 season. After that, prime Kareem never really got the teams to compete, like Jordan had, or Bird/Magic had. Guy was literally leading 15-20 win teams to 50+ wins for the later portion of the 70s.

If I'm a Laker fan, I'm pissed at how the media has drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the great players. What a shame that these careers aren't getting the respect they deserve. The GOAT title in basketball is closer and tighter than in any other major North American sports (other than NFL because of all the different positions), but you wouldn't know it.

No, Jordan had a Pippen and Rodman on thier last legs. Pippen was playing on a busted back at 33 and Rodman was 37 and MJ carried them.

Don't give me this **** that Kareem didn't have the teams to compete. Dude had prime Oscar and Magic for over 15 years of his career. Dude had homecourt and lost 5 series with it even with other top 10 players all time.

[Duncan21formvp]

:oldlol: at '93 Suns when KJ barely was ever 100% in that season.

:oldlol: at '91 Pistons, with half the core being near retirement and barely even making it out of the first round.

:roll: at '97 Hawks.

'96 Magic were too young.

'96 Sonics. Yea, I guess Mike getting 27/5/4 on 41% was too much for them to handle.

'92 Blazers, perhaps more "talented", but a team that always was thought to underachieve for a good 3-4 year span.

The thing is, Jordan stans have said in the past that the second three peat was had a core/talent (which is true), but then you remember that the first three-peat core outside of MJ won 55 games. Things just don't tie up here. This ever present agenda to diminish MJ's teammates is getting exposed over and over again.

Yeah and Pippen was getting 15 ppg on 34%

[plowking]

Yea, I'm sure aging had nothing to do with it right?

LOL at "competition getting tougher, Kareem fell off", ever watched the '80 finals? Or hell even the '85 finals where people ruled Kareem out as being "too old" and then he drops 30/17/8 vs. the Celtics at the age of 37! Follows that up with 26/14/7 on just 13 shots! 37 year old Kareem did this in like 30 minutes of playing time a game, and yet you are questioning prime Kareem?! :oldlol:

Magic has no case. To me he is always in the second tier (ie. positions 5-10).

Which is why most centers have their best years 5-8 years in the league, which didn't occur with Kareem, in fact his production dropped. He didn't dominate the league nearly as much as Jordan.

[Duncan21formvp]

He didn't lose to cupcake teams. He lost to great teams.

A f****** 40-42 team is not a great team. Get the F out of here.

[Fatal9]

Yea, that Oscar, in game 7 of the '74 finals went 2-13 for 6 points as a 35 year old, and even then was arguably the second best player on Kareem's team during that series. Also ended up getting torched by the Celtics guards on the defensive end too.

D-Rose, please don't quote (then I see his posts) or respond to duncanformvp. It's my request as thread creator to insure a certain level of quality here.

[plowking]

:oldlol: at '93 Suns when KJ barely was ever 100% in that season.

:oldlol: at '91 Pistons, with half the core being near retirement and barely even making it out of the first round.

:roll: at '97 Hawks.

'96 Magic were too young.

'96 Sonics. Yea, I guess Mike getting 27/5/4 on 41% was too much for them to handle.

'92 Blazers, perhaps more "talented", but a team that always was thought to underachieve for a good 3-4 year span.

The thing is, Jordan stans have said in the past that the second three peat was had a core/talent (which is true), but then you remember that the first three-peat core outside of MJ won 55 games. Things just don't tie up here. This ever present agenda to diminish MJ's teammates is getting exposed over and over again.


You just love MJ to much now, don't you? LOL at your little groupies like D-Rose backing you up. :oldlol:

Admit you're a Laker fan already. It would just be stating the obvious. While you're at it, admit your obvious hate for Jordan.

[Duncan21formvp]

Prime Oscar? :oldlol:

You mean 32 year old Oscar.

Yeah and Pippen was 32 in 1997 but yet everyone says that was Pippen in his prime. Rodman was 36 at that time and people say it is his prime.

Make up your mind.

[Duncan21formvp]

Yea, that Oscar, in game 7 of the '74 finals went 2-13 for 6 points as a 35 year old, and even then was arguably the second best player on Kareem's team during that series.

Yeah and Pippen scored 8 points in game 6 of the 1998 finals and in game 5 he scored 6 points on 2-16.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

No, Jordan had a Pippen and Rodman on thier last legs. Pippen was playing on a busted back at 33 and Rodman was 37 and MJ carried them.

Don't give me this **** that Kareem didn't have the teams to compete. Dude had prime Oscar and Magic for over 15 years of his career. Dude had homecourt and lost 5 series with it even with other top 10 players all time.

wow. you need to revisit your history.
KAJ had an aging Oscar for a brief period, as Oscar was already over 30 and been in the league for 11 years....AND YET...they won the championship.

as for MJ, I think you are using their ending ages. Pippen was in his prime for all 6 championships. Rodman was a beast, as George Karl pointed out:

"As you evaluate the series, Dennis Rodman won two basketball games," Karl said. "We controlled Dennis Rodman for four gmaes. But Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful."

Rodman was the central figure in the burst that gave the Bulls control of the game. The Sonics trailed 52-45 with less than nine minutes left in the third quarter. Chicago went on a 12-2 run over the next two minutes to take a 64-47 lead with 6:41 remaining in the period. Rodman had five points in the run, capping the surge with a perfect backdoor pass to Jordan for a layup.

[plowking]

He didn't lose to cupcake teams. He lost to great teams.

Jordan on the other hand, just didn't lose to teams worse than his.

[chitownsfinest]

Heat? Rodman kept Zo in check for the most part.
I mean talent wise they are comparable to the Bulls of 97. Plus, Kukoc was banged up in the 97 playoffs and Rodman was not himself (his rebounding numbers were down, MJ was actually really close to him in terms of RPG).
Heat had Zo, Timmy, Mashbun, P.J. Brown, and Voshon Lenord.

[plowking]

Maybe you should go back to the Miami Heat forum and pray you land Bosh or Amare with your atrocious trade bait :oldlol:


This is the funniest thing about Laker fans (correction: Kobe fans). I bet Kwame was a superstar as well, right? :oldlol:

[gts]

A f****** 40-42 team is not a great team. Get the F out of here.kareem averaged 27ppg 16 rebounds 4 assists 3 blocks and 1 steal while playing 44 minutes per game..he pulled his own weight in the series, It was a 5 game series and the rockets were hot and the lakers bench was non existent, that series was also the one that spelled the end of westheads time as laker head coach as he tried to slow down showtime lakers ball and play a pace slowing game... that's why magic went ballistic and called for weathead to be fired...

[plowking]

Lol @ Kerr/Colangelo being as cheap as Chris Wallace :oldlol: :oldlol:

Who said it's about being cheap. It's positioning yourself for 2010, which a lot of teams aren't in position for to make big offers for all the stars available that year.

Good to know you follow me around everywhere though.

[chitownsfinest]

:oldlol: at '93 Suns when KJ barely was ever 100% in that season.

:oldlol: at '91 Pistons, with half the core being near retirement and barely even making it out of the first round.

:roll: at '97 Hawks.

'96 Magic were too young.

'96 Sonics. Yea, I guess Mike getting 27/5/4 on 41% was too much for them to handle.

'92 Blazers, perhaps more "talented", but a team that always was thought to underachieve for a good 3-4 year span.

The thing is, Jordan stans have said in the past that the second three peat was had a core/talent (which is true), but then you remember that the first three-peat core outside of MJ won 55 games. Things just don't tie up here. This ever present agenda to diminish MJ's teammates is getting exposed over and over again.
Yet KJ still managed to play 60 mins in gm 3 right? :oldlol: Oh yeah, what about MJ's wrist problems?
91 Pistons still matched up talent wise to the Bulls that yr idiot. Dumars/Zeke/Acguirre/James Edwards/Vinnie/Laimbeer all averaged double digits that season and almost all of them played 70+ games.
97 Hawks with Laettner/Steve Smith/Deke(DPOY)/Mookie Blaylock? That matched up talent wise with a banged up Bulls squad. Kukoc only averaged 8 ppg on 36% shooting and was banged up. Rodman also was out of sync and only averaged 8.4 RPG those playoffs. Jordan, in fact, averaged 7.9 RPG those playoffs which is amazing
96 Magic had big advantage in the front court and were equally talented as the Bulls were. Shaq/Penny/Anderson/Scott/Grant was maybe the best starting 5 that season.

[Duncan21formvp]

wow. you need to revisit your history.
KAJ had an aging Oscar for a brief period, as Oscar was already over 30 and been in the league for 11 years....AND YET...they won the championship.

as for MJ, I think you are using their ending ages. Pippen was in his prime for all 6 championships. Rodman was a beast, as George Karl pointed out:

"As you evaluate the series, Dennis Rodman won two basketball games," Karl said. "We controlled Dennis Rodman for four gmaes. But Game 2 and tonight, he was the reason they were successful."

Rodman was the central figure in the burst that gave the Bulls control of the game. The Sonics trailed 52-45 with less than nine minutes left in the third quarter. Chicago went on a 12-2 run over the next two minutes to take a 64-47 lead with 6:41 remaining in the period. Rodman had five points in the run, capping the surge with a perfect backdoor pass to Jordan for a layup.


Pippen was in his prime for the Bulls six titles is false. In 1998 dude was on his last legs. He was injured half the season and had a bad back in the playoffs. In 1997 it was his foot. In 1996 it was his back.

[chitownsfinest]

Kareem is, imo, 1b to Jordan's 1a when it comes to being the GOAT and if you factor in college/hs play, he is the GOAT but it is sad how some of some you are selling Jordan's era completely short. Want to talk about weak, how about the West in the 80s? The 80s Lakers had no competition in the West with the exception of the 88 season and the 86 Rockets. All the real competition was in the East at the time.

[plowking]

Positioning? WTF?

Amare and Bosh expire that year, each team would still get the cap room.

Not following you brah, you're just the resident Miami homer :lol :cheers:

How about the Clipps and Bobcats trades discussed?

Neither I believe have space to sign a star without trading for a huge expirer in the 2010 season.

As for Chi and PHO, they could always be interested in more players from the 2010 free agency list, hence wanting more coming off the contracts to sign more players.

[Cyclone112]

Why is this nitwit allowed to post on these forums? Ever contributed anything of value?

This MUST be trolling because if it's not it is the most hypocritical, backwards statement I've ever seen. You contribute nothing but ****ING BS to these forums. As much as BB pisses me off I'm more than happy now for him to come in and drop his walls of text in all of your **** threads.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at "trolling" if you don't think Jordan is a clear cut GOAT.

[momo]

Michael Jordan is still the greatest player of all time.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar won 5 of his 6 MVP Trophies in the 1970's, where some of the greatest players in Professional Basketball were playing in the American Basketball Association.

What? He won them when?

[indiefan23]

He's got a case for most effortless unstoppable shot. Without it his career is half as good.

[KAJ=GOAT]

*sheds tears of joy*


Its about time people start realizing how truly phenomenal this man was on the basketball court. The man dominated at every single level. When people want to talk about, the "greatest of all time", or "the best there ever was", you have to key in on the words "all", and "ever".

Kareem dominated at all levels. Not just the pros, but every single level. Didn't just win, but

dominated. Dominated so much in college, they had to rework the rules to make it harder for him to score. They banned the dunk, and then reinstated it once he left.

lmao at all the haters/Jordan stans coming out of the woodworks to discredit a player they know very little about. "Pip and Rod were on their last legs", "Jordan had some of the worst teams win titles", etc etc.

Do people really believe that crap?


Either way, I salute this justice to a legendary man and career on the court of basketball.


The best thing about it,

Kareem didn't need the ESPN and Nike hype machines working in overdrive to convince us of his talents.



"I came to bring the pain hardcore"

:hammertime:

[momo]

Kareem is, imo, 1b to Jordan's 1a ....

That is pretty much how I think of it.

[miller-time]

i can have it either way, although jordan is my favourite player of all time.

if GOAT is based on a subjective but collective opinion then i think a big part of Jordan > Kareem is that more people want to be a 6'6 SG that can dunk from the foul line than a 7'2 center with a hook shot.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I have no problem with people considering Kareem to be the GOAT. MJ was who I grew up with and therefore my choice as GOAT, but with Kareem right behind him. Maybe a 1A and 1B if you will.

What I do find to be utterly hilarious, is all the Lakers/Kobe fans in this thread and their never ending pathetic attempts to diminish MJ to hype up their man crush. :oldlol: :roll: They constantly try and make you believe they like MJ and how he is GOAT, etc, but they never miss an opportunity to take shots at him whether it's overrating his teammates, underrating the teams he played against, etc. :oldlol: The entire purpose of this thread was to take shots at MJ. If this thread was created by a non Kobe/Laker fan, it would have much more credibility.

[97 bulls]

i think its hypocritcal to say kareem is the greatest when he won 4 of his six championships as the second or third best player on the team. then knock kobe for basically the same thing.

[97 bulls]

I mean talent wise they are comparable to the Bulls of 97. Plus, Kukoc was banged up in the 97 playoffs and Rodman was not himself (his rebounding numbers were down, MJ was actually really close to him in terms of RPG).
Heat had Zo, Timmy, Mashbun, P.J. Brown, and Voshon Lenord.
if the bulls werent injured and brian williams has a full season under his belt they destroy every team they play. and how can you base your argument on a few games? i bet i can find a bunch of scrubs that played great in a playoff series some better than jordan and kareem in certain seasons, and i guarantee you wouldnt put them above the obviously better players. the fact that the bulls were able to win with injuries further solidifies their greatness. stop basing your conclusions solely on stats. its rediculous.

[Simple Jack]

Next time anyone says Jordan is clear cut GOAT, you all are entitled to laugh at them. Jordan just barely by the slightest of margins edges out Kareem and Wilt, based really only on the fact that he was in a better situation than them during his prime years. Kareem and Wilt were both better players (big men, by default you take them over Jordan really) and played in a more competitive league.

What case do you have for Wilt being better than Jordan. Do you not consider rings an important part in determining the GOAT?

Jordan has the individual achievements AND the rings. He is the hands down GOAT, and there SHOULDN'T be any debate. Seriously.

[Roundball_Rock]

I really don't think Hakeem should be placed above Shaq and Timmy. That's just my opinion. Timmy and Shaq both have 4 Rings and Hakeem has half of that, and he may only have those because MJ took a break.

That is a legit position. I am surprised so few people put Duncan above them, especially Hakeem. Duncan won with scrubs in 2003! :bowdown:


No one is truly the GOAT in any sport. The guy who is considered GOAT however is the guy with the best case to be GOAT and that is MJ. Reason being is no one has the combination of winning, efficiency, stats, accolades and played both ends of the court. Jordan is near the top in every one of them and that is what makes him the GOAT.

True but after Gretzky in hockey Jordan has the greatest amount of support for GOAT status. In other sports there is a lot more diversity when it comes to fans' opinions of the GOAT.

I do agree with you on why those things make MJ the GOAT.


Michael won championships with worse teams, he was the best player every time in the finals, he dominated his competition to the extent if not further than Kareem/Wilt and he was the sure shot number 1 player in the league for just about every year he was in the league.

I agree with 90% of that. Prime Wilt and peak Kareem were more dominant than Jordan but MJ is the GOAT for other reasons. For instance, Wilt simply never won enough.


Furthermore, once the competition started to get better, Kareem's stats dropped off. Is it a coincidence that his numbers got worse during the time most would be in their prime, than what they were 3 years into the league?

This is a legitimate point. A players' prime is usually between age 27-30. Kareem's best season was his third season at age 24 when he averaged 35/17/5. When he was 28 he averaged 28/17/5/4, 26/13/4/3 at age 30. How many all-time greats were better when they were in their early 20's than they were when they were 27-30? Can any Kareem fan explain this discrepancy? Was it due to pace?


. Can't ask for more than that...EXCEPT, he won against MUCH MUCH tougher competition than MJ EVER did.

Perhaps in the NBA finals but the West was a joke during the 80's. It is no coincidence the Lakers went 9-1 in the conference finals during that decade but were "only" 5-4 in the NBA finals from 1980-90. If MJ played in such a weak conference and had a crack at the NBA finals every year due to it how many rings would he have had?


as for MJ, I think you are using their ending ages. Pippen was in his prime for all 6 championships.

I disagree. In 1991 and 1998 Pippen was not in his prime. His prime was from 1992-97 and his absolute peak was from 1994-97, seasons in which he was unquestionably a top 5 player--at least.


:oldlol: at "trolling" if you don't think Jordan is a clear cut GOAT.

Yup, anyone with a contrary opinion, especially on MJ is immediately branded a troll. :oldlol:

[takeittothehoop]

He's 3rd GOAT in my book, after Jordan and Magic. Ridiculous career..but whats better? A guy thats played 20 years of very consistent basketball and won many championships??

or

a guy that has been dominant and won many championships in a small peroid of time and had a shorter career.?

[Qdouble]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...Somehow underrated as the greatest big man and the greatest player. The argument is that he won with Magic and Oscar. Yeah, but did they win without him? And as for Oscar, why not check out what he did prior to pairing with Kareem. From 1968-70 (three straight seasons), Oscar

[Fatal9]

But how did the Bucks do in ‘70? Kareem’s arrival (he was Alcindor before the ring) in 1970 made a 180 degree turn on the Buck’s young franchise, from 26-56 in the ’69 season to 56-26 in the ’70 season
I overlooked this in my OP.

So based on this information we know a couple of things:

Bucks went from 26 wins to 56 wins when Kareem was added (BTW, Oscar wasn't even added yet!). Bucks made no other significant additions and in fact lost their 3rd leading scorer.

Bucks were on pace for 15-20 wins when Kareem broke his hand, and then when he came back they won at a pace of 55 wins. Lakers, when he broke his hand for a second time in '78, also were a lottery bound team without him.

His value to teams he led in his prime is just absolutely remarkable. Anyone else embody the title of MVP more than him?!

[Fatal9]

This is a legitimate point. A players' prime is usually between age 27-30. Kareem's best season was his third season at age 24 when he averaged 35/17/5. When he was 28 he averaged 28/17/5/4, 26/13/4/3 at age 30. How many all-time greats were better when they were in their early 20's than they were when they were 27-30? Can any Kareem fan explain this discrepancy? Was it due to pace?
Nah, pace wasn't even that big of a factor in comparison to early 90s Bulls. About 10-15% difference. If you want a linear adjustment, his ppg would be down by about 3 ppg, rebounding by about 1.5, assists by .5, blocks by .5, which really isn't significant at all. I doubt his production even decreases by that much at all (a slower game just means more post ups for him).

BTW, in '78 at the age of 28, he missed 20 games to start the season as he broke his hand and was actively rehabbing it as he played. Still put up 28/17/5/4 though. His production wasn't really off by that much at all from earlier seasons, and if you look at his playoff production it stayed within the same range until he was about 33 years old. Don't forget his run through the playoffs at the age of 32, where he capped it off with an incredible series in '80 vs. the Sixers (34/14/3/5).

[KAJ=GOAT]

What case do you have for Wilt being better than Jordan. Do you not consider rings an important part in determining the GOAT?

Jordan has the individual achievements AND the rings. He is the hands down GOAT, and there SHOULDN'T be any debate. Seriously.

I see you're talking about Wilt, but to say there shouldn't be any debate is pretty stupid.

Kareem
6 NBA rings
6 MVP rings
3 NCAA titles
3 MOP


There shouldn't be any debate?

"When I get busy, who is he, my formula rhymes"


:hammertime:

[97 bulls]

like i said earlier kareem doesnt get as much credit cuz in 4 of his six titles he wasnt the best player on his team. and in probably 2 of those 4 he was the third best player.

[97 bulls]

Nah, pace wasn't even that big of a factor in comparison to early 90s Bulls. About 10-15% difference. If you want a linear adjustment, his ppg would be down by about 3 ppg, rebounding by about 1.5, assists by .5, blocks by .5, which really isn't significant at all. I doubt his production even decreases by that much at all (a slower game just means more post ups for him).

BTW, in '78 at the age of 28, he missed 20 games to start the season as he broke his hand and was actively rehabbing it as he played. Still put up 28/17/5/4 though. His production wasn't really off by that much at all from earlier seasons, and if you look at his playoff production it stayed within the same range until he was about 33 years old. Don't forget his run through the playoffs at the age of 32, where he capped it off with an incredible series in '80 vs. the Sixers (34/14/3/5).
i dont know of any business that takes a 10 to 15 percent drop in production and is deemed ok.

[KAJ=GOAT]

like i said earlier kareem doesnt get as much credit cuz in 4 of his six titles he wasnt the best player on his team. and in probably 2 of those 4 he was the third best player.


Who says he wasn't the best player?


As I recall, it was Pat Riley who asked Kareem to relinquish his role on the team so that Magic could lead.

Thats just another part of his greatness, sacrificing for the overall good of the team and putting personal feelings aside.



But let me ask you this, if Kareem wasn't the best player,

why didn't Magic ever win without him?


Were you even alive when Cap was winning a finals MVP to go along with his 4th championship at the age of 37 ?



"all my people out there, stay in school, please"

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

There isnt a greatest player ever. That cannot be possible. However, they are tiers of greatness and Kareem is in the top tier.

[97 bulls]

Who says he wasn't the best player?


As I recall, it was Pat Riley who asked Kareem to relinquish his role on the team so that Magic could lead.

Thats just another part of his greatness, sacrificing for the overall good of the team and putting personal feelings aside.



But let me ask you this, if Kareem wasn't the best player,

why didn't Magic ever win without him?


Were you even alive when Cap was winning a finals MVP to go along with his 4th championship at the age of 37 ?



"all my people out there, stay in school, please"

:hammertime:
yes im 34. and he asked kareem out of respect. kareem didnt have a choice. it was smart of him to accept A LESSER role and win more rings. like i said earlier. if your gonna hold guys like kobe and pippen to the but he wasnt the best player on his team aergument. then even kareem needs to be held to the same standard.

[97 bulls]

not to mention its widely known that magic prolonged kareems career.

[KAJ=GOAT]

yes im 34. and he asked kareem out of respect. kareem didnt have a choice. it was smart of him to accept A LESSER role and win more rings. like i said earlier. if your gonna hold guys like kobe and pippen to the but he wasnt the best player on his team aergument. then even kareem needs to be held to the same standard.


Kareem is held to the same standard, but it doesn't mean there was somebody on his team that was better.

So I ask again, if Kareem wasn't the best player, and I'm assuming you think Magic was,


where are Magics titles without Kareem? He had pretty much the same team, Worthy, Scott, Rambis, Cooper, etc.


I'll tell you where they're at,

they left when Kareem retired.



Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he was the best player up to his last days, but the way you're telling it, Kareem was just some role player off the bench playing garbage time making his name and fame off of Magic.

"I get goosebumps when the bassline thumps"
:hammertime:

[jjayfive]

if we play the "STATS and NUMBERS DON'T LIE" game, then kareem has to be on top... those numbers that some of you are posting are insane:eek: ... my top two are MJ and Magic.. top tier is pretty obvious and kobe is not in it..

[KAJ=GOAT]

not to mention its widely known that magic prolonged kareems career.


Not to mention, its widely known,

Magic never won a thing without Cap.


"boom bip with a brother named Tip and I'm ready to flip"

:hammertime:

[97 bulls]

Not to mention, its widely known,

Magic never won a thing without Cap.


"boom bip with a brother named Tip and I'm ready to flip"

:hammertime:
great whats your point? fact is that magic was showtime. now kareem was a big part of the winning. but a big part of greatness on these boards is how big you role is on the championships you won. and im telling you that if kareem does a shaq move and *****es and moans about the transition from his team to magics team he probably ends up with three rings. and goes from top 3 3rd behind jordan and magic to 5-7.

[KAJ=GOAT]

great whats your point? fact is that magic was showtime. now kareem was a big part of the winning. but a big part of greatness on these boards is how big you role is on the championships you won. and im telling you that if kareem does a shaq move and *****es and moans about the transition from his team to magics team he probably ends up with three rings. and goes from top 3 3rd behind jordan and magic to 5-7.



Facts.

Lets deal with them. Not the "ifs" or "buts", but facts.

3 time NYC champion at Power Memorial
3 time NCAA champion at UCLA. Most likely would have been 4 had freshman been allowed to play on the varsity team. Led his frosh team to a victory over the number 1 ranked varsity Bruins anyway.
6 time NBA champion
all time leading scorer
6 time MVP

From the official Hall of Fame website.

The world may never again see an athlete dominate basketball for as long and as thoroughly as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. From the time he stepped on the court as Lewis Alcindor at Power Memorial High School in his native New York City, to the years he owned college basketball at UCLA to the time he retired as the NBA's all-time leader in nine statistical categories including the most points in NBA history, the 7-foot-2 superstar established himself as one of basketball's most talented and recognizable figures. Abdul-Jabbar's trademark skyhook was so precise and unstoppable it left defenders helpless. While one of Abdul-Jabbar's signature maneuvers, it is now widely considered basketball's most classic and lethal offensive move. Abdul-Jabbar brought finesse and agility to the center position, two traits he substituted for brute force and strength. He was the kind of player who graces a sport once in a lifetime.

"whats up doc, can we rock?"

:hammertime:

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at the predictable Jordan/Bulls crowd rolling in.

Kareem won multiple championships as "the guy" and came damn close another time in '74, with a heavily outmatched team. Watch the game, and let me know if you've seen a player get targeted like that in the finals. His teammates didn't step up (Oscar 2-13, 6 points). To me that playoff run/series is actually more impressive than some of the runs/performances Jordan had during his 3peats. This "#1 option" stuff is complete BS, and is really the only thing Jordan fans have. But does it matter? You don't think Kareem wins more championships if he played with a competitive supporting cast during the ages of 26-30? Kareem has 6 rings, period. He has shown he can win. He has shown he can win as the guy. So this argument really isn't some sort of a clincher like these fanboys are letting on. If that's the only criteria, then Russell is clearly the greatest.

Kareem is NBA's GOAT and Basketball's GOAT (all levels of play considered).

[Flashbeanie]

I think you have to say Jordan was GOAT because he was not as tall as Kareem. It's a very simplistic view, but the game is harder if you are shorter, plain and simple. Height confers a greater advantage than speed. By this reasoning, if there were an elite player on the same level as Jordan who was smaller than him, that player would have overcome more disadvantages and you would say that player was the GOAT. However, such a player has not come along yet. I should also add, that there are more 6'6' players in the world than there are 7'1" players, and there are way more 6'3" and shorter players. To distinguish yourself among a larger body of similar-type players is more impressive.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: at the predictable Jordan/Bulls crowd rolling in.

Kareem won multiple championships as "the guy" and came damn close another time in '74, with a heavily outmatched team. Watch the game, and let me know if you've seen a player get targeted like that in the finals. His teammates didn't step up (Oscar 2-13, 6 points). To me that playoff run/series is actually more impressive than some of the runs/performances Jordan had during his 3peats. This "#1 option" stuff is complete BS, and is really the only thing Jordan fans have. But does it matter? You don't think Kareem wins more championships if he played with a competitive supporting cast during the ages of 26-30? Kareem has 6 rings, period. He has shown he can win. He has shown he can win as the guy. So this argument really isn't some sort of a clincher like these fanboys are letting on. If that's the only criteria, then Russell is clearly the greatest.

Kareem is NBA's GOAT and Basketball's GOAT (all levels of play considered).
so now your argument is based on ifs? the argument you used can be stated for every single athlete ever. even jordan. if he has a better team and doesnt retire in his prime for basically 2 years does he end up with abpout 4 more rings? ans as far as this number 1 option stuff, im just sayn use the same standard for every body.

[Fatal9]

so now your argument is based on ifs? the argument you used can be stated for every single athlete ever. even jordan. if he has a better team and doesnt retire in his prime for basically 2 years does he end up with abpout 4 more rings? ans as far as this number 1 option stuff, im just sayn use the same standard for every body.
6 rings is no "if" buddy. But he clearly would have had more in the late 70s with a competitive supporting cast. You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Kareem has 3 rings as the #1 guy imo (and was ridiculous in '85 finals when it was Magic's team). Kareem, unlike these other athletes you are referring to, won multiple championships as the man, so no IFs here. Kareem's value to the team, overall statistics in prime, individual dominance, aren't matched by Jordan.

[KAJ=GOAT]

:oldlol: at the predictable Jordan/Bulls crowd rolling in.

Kareem won multiple championships as "the guy" and came damn close another time in '74, with a heavily outmatched team. Watch the game, and let me know if you've seen a player get targeted like that in the finals. His teammates didn't step up (Oscar 2-13, 6 points). To me that playoff run/series is actually more impressive than some of the runs/performances Jordan had during his 3peats. This "#1 option" stuff is complete BS, and is really the only thing Jordan fans have. But does it matter? You don't think Kareem wins more championships if he played with a competitive supporting cast during the ages of 26-30? Kareem has 6 rings, period. He has shown he can win. He has shown he can win as the guy. So this argument really isn't some sort of a clincher like these fanboys are letting on. If that's the only criteria, then Russell is clearly the greatest.
Kareem is NBA's GOAT and Basketball's GOAT (all levels of play considered).

The Jordan rules.
Red from Friday - "oh that was different".


"as I commence lyrical content, now bust the grammar"

:hammertime:

[Fatal9]

3 time NYC champion at Power Memorial
3 time NCAA champion at UCLA. Most likely would have been 4 had freshman been allowed to play on the varsity team. Led his frosh team to a victory over the number 1 ranked varsity Bruins anyway.
6 time NBA champion
all time leading scorer
6 time MVP
:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

I think you have to say Jordan was GOAT because he was not as tall as Kareem. It's a very simplistic view, but the game is harder if you are shorter, plain and simple. Height confers a greater advantage than speed. By this reasoning, if there were an elite player on the same level as Jordan who was smaller than him, that player would have overcome more disadvantages and you would say that player was the GOAT. However, such a player has not come along yet. I should also add, that there are more 6'6' players in the world than there are 7'1" players, and there are way more 6'3" and shorter players. To distinguish yourself among a larger body of similar-type players is more impressive.


While taller players may have a height advantage,

every advantage has a counter.

Shorter players are faster, more agile, with less stress on the knees.

The fact that Kareem was able to play for so long and dominate at every level is an even bigger testament to how great he was.


"a comfortable position is what I'm after"


:hammertime:

[OldSchoolBBall]

6 rings is no "if" buddy. But he clearly would have had more in the late 70s with a competitive supporting cast.

Jordan also clearly would have beaten Detroit in '89 and '90 (and also possibly LA in '88) with a more competitive supporting cast. Your point?

[KAJ=GOAT]

so now your argument is based on ifs?
Do you really want to ask someone else that question?


Originally Posted by 97 bulls
and im telling you that if kareem does a shaq move and *****es and moans about the transition from his team to magics team he probably ends up with three rings. and goes from top 3 3rd behind jordan and magic to 5-7.


"once again I'm rugged, with a twist of flavor"


:hammertime:

[gts]

not to mention its widely known that magic prolonged kareems career.and taking a few years off here and there extended Jordans.

[Fatal9]

Jordan also clearly would have beaten Detroit in '89 and '90 (and also possibly LA in '88) with a more competitive supporting cast. Your point?
Jordan got his cast at the age of 27. Kareem didn't until he was 31-32 and Magic came along. There's the point.

[KAJ=GOAT]

and taking a few years off here and there extended Jordans.
The Jordan rules.
Red from Friday - "oh that was different".


"blow for blow, I'm letting you know"

:hammertime:

[97 bulls]

6 rings is no "if" buddy. But he clearly would have had more in the late 70s with a competitive supporting cast. You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Kareem has 3 rings as the #1 guy imo (and was ridiculous in '85 finals when it was Magic's team). Kareem, unlike these other athletes you are referring to, won multiple championships as the man, so no IFs here. Kareem's value to the team, overall statistics in prime, individual dominance, aren't matched by Jordan.
uh yes they are. the only thing kareem has on jordan is longevity. and even thats not a given considering how jordan played in his late 30s. and dont jump around. your the one that introduced ifs in this convo. if kareems teams were better if they hadnt played bad etc. kareem played over 20 years he had plenty of time to do what he was gonna do. and as far as college and high school, remeber, jordan was more of a baseball player as a child. baketball was an afterthought. and in UNC he played in a system. dean smith said jordan wouldve dogged the ncaa if he turned him loose. i even remember when i believe the portland gm asked him who he should take with his number 2 pick in the draft knight said jordan. the portland gm said but we need a center and knights reply was then play him at center. jordan couldve been evn more dominant in coillege too.

[andgar923]

This may sound like a surprise but I'm taking MJ.

Why?

His game was more extensive than any big.

He didn't depend on players to give him the ball.

Not to take anything away from Kareem, Wilt or other big men, but they weren't as effective outside of the paint like MJ was. And MJ was just as effective as they were in the paint. Same applies on the defensive end, MJ could defend the interior and the perimeter better than they could.

Those bigs can't receive the ball at the top of the circle, split defenders and create for others. However..... MJ can receive the ball at the top, split defenders, cut to the inside and score from the post over double and triple teams or shoot the outside shot.

And that is why MJ is the GOAT.

His impact is the same as those mentioned.
His accolades are comparable to those mentioned.

So I look at what they can do as 'players' on the court..... and MJ wins out.

[Fatal9]

Longevity? I've never seen Jordan add the type of value Kareem did to his teams, which barely managed to stay in the league without Kareem there. Jordan, while a great defender, doesn't have the interior presence of a big man. Jordan doesn't have the scoring efficiency of Kareem, despite them putting up identical scoring numbers (ppg wise). At their peaks, Kareem was hands down better. While we are at it, so was Wilt. Even if it is close, which it really isn't, you always big the edge to the center over the guard.

[KAJ=GOAT]

This may sound like a surprise but I'm taking MJ.

Why?

His game was more extensive than any big.

He didn't depend on players to give him the ball.

Not to take anything away from Kareem, Wilt or other big men, but they weren't as effective outside of the paint like MJ was. And MJ was just as effective as they were in the paint. Same applies on the defensive end, MJ could defend the interior and the perimeter better than they could.

Those bigs can't receive the ball at the top of the circle, split defenders and create for others. However..... MJ can receive the ball at the top, split defenders, cut to the inside and score from the post over double and triple teams or shoot the outside shot.

And that is why MJ is the GOAT.

His impact is the same as those mentioned.
His accolades are comparable to those mentioned.

So I look at what they can do as 'players' on the court..... and MJ wins out.


By that token,

Jordan can't dominate defensively in the paint since bigs can't dribble and create for others.

Impact, do you want to talk about impact?

When was the last time the rules were changed to stop Jordan from scoring more?

Do you even know the dunk was banned in college because Kareem was dominant with it? Did you know it was reinstated after he turned pro?

3 NYC hs championships
3 NCAA titles 3 Most Outstanding Player awards
6 NBA titles 6 MVPs

How does Jordan measure up to those?

Failed to make the hs team at one point.
Was third option in college on one championship team
6 NBA titles and 5 MVPs.

Give me the guy who dominated at every level.

"5-0 said freeze, and I got numb, can I tell em that I really never had a gun"


:hammertime:

[chitownsfinest]

LMFAO @ using college/hs career to dignify Kareem as the GOAT.

[97 bulls]

Longevity? I've never seen Jordan add the type of value Kareem did to his teams, which barely managed to stay in the league without Kareem there. Jordan, while a great defender, doesn't have the interior presence of a big man. Jordan doesn't have the scoring efficiency of Kareem, despite them putting up identical scoring numbers (ppg wise). At their peaks, Kareem was hands down better. While we are at it, so was Wilt. Even if it is close, which it really isn't, you always big the edge to the center over the guard.
now your comparing the center position to a guard position. ok jordan was a better jumpshooter and dribbler and ft shooter. and evun in the post jordan was great. not good but great. kareem would suck on the perimeter jordan flourished in the post. not to mention the 70s was a weak era considering that tha aba took alot of great ball players from the nba. in fact jordan went up against a far superior cast of centers than kareem. and beat them all.

[97 bulls]

Did Jordan win Finals MVP at 38?
lol no did kareem win finals league and allstar mvp at 35?

[97 bulls]

LMFAO @ using college/hs career to dignify Kareem as the GOAT.
man can you believe this sh?t?

[Fatal9]

So to justify Jordan's position as GOAT over Kareem, it's because come down to Jordan being shorter, so it's more impressive? :roll: :roll: :roll:

[KAJ=GOAT]

man can you believe this sh?t?


Greatest of all time.

Let that marinate for a minute.

Doesn't say, greatest in the NBA, but greatest of all time.


Kareem doesn't even need his amateur accomplishments posted, it just shows how insanely great he was at every level.

Last I checked

6=6, so what exactly makes Jordan better?


The world may never again see an athlete dominate basketball for as long and as thoroughly as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. From the time he stepped on the court as Lewis Alcindor at Power Memorial High School in his native New York City, to the years he owned college basketball at UCLA to the time he retired as the NBA's all-time leader in nine statistical categories including the most points in NBA history, the 7-foot-2 superstar established himself as one of basketball's most talented and recognizable figures. Abdul-Jabbar's trademark skyhook was so precise and unstoppable it left defenders helpless. While one of Abdul-Jabbar's signature maneuvers, it is now widely considered basketball's most classic and lethal offensive move. Abdul-Jabbar brought finesse and agility to the center position, two traits he substituted for brute force and strength. He was the kind of player who graces a sport once in a lifetime.

I'll take the word of the official body over some random blogger.

"live we doing it east new york style"


:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

LMFAO @ using college/hs career to dignify Kareem as the GOAT.

6 NBA titles 6 MVPs, most points ever> 6 NBA titles 5 MVPs.

That ams aren't even needed as Kareem already has the pro accomplishments and accolades to put him above Jordan, they just add to his greatness.


"oh my god, what?"

:hammertime:

[chitownsfinest]

Greatest of all time.

Let that marinate for a minute.

Doesn't say, greatest in the NBA, but greatest of all time


Kareem doesn't even need his amateur accomplishments posted, it just shows how insanely great he was at every level.

Last I checked

6=6, so what exactly makes Jordan better?



I'll take the word of the official body over some random blogger.

Difference: Jordan in those 6 titles: Finals MVP every time
Kareem in those 6: Finals MVP only twice
I also don't give two flying fu*ks if you don't like counting finals MVP's. Just because it does not fit your personal bias for Kareem, doesen't mean it should be ignored. LMAO @ ignoring finals mvp's yet counting all the stats that favor Kareem. Here is another thing, MJ played 1072 career games while Kareem played 1560. MJ had more points in those 1072 then Kareem had through his 1072.

You say you don't care about his college/hs accomplishments, yet you post them constantly. It is clearly your main ammunition.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Difference: Jordan in those 6 titles: Finals MVP every time
Kareem in those 6: Finals MVP only twice
I also don't give two flying fu*ks if you don't like counting finals MVP's. Just because it does not fit your personal bias for Kareem, doesen't mean it should be ignored. LMAO @ ignoring finals mvp's yet counting all the stats that favor Kareem. Here is another thing, MJ played 1072 career games while Kareem played 1560. MJ had more points in those 1072 then Kareem had through his 1072.

You say you don't care about his college/hs accomplishments, yet you post them constantly. It is clearly your main ammunition.


Get at me when Jordan can win without Pippen or Phil.

Get at me when Jordan can take a team with less than 30 wins the season before he got there to over 50 wins in his rookie season.

Get at me when Jordan can be MVP on a losing team.

Get at me when Jordan can win a finals MVP in his late 30s, since finals MVP is your only hope.

Get at me when Jordan has the most points scored, ever.


Longetivity=dedication to ones body and mind in preparation for their craft.

Jordan retired twice because he had trouble with the heat.


Until then, Kareem>Jordan.

"men lie, women lie, numbers don't"

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

By that token,

Jordan can't dominate defensively in the paint since bigs can't dribble and create for others.

Impact, do you want to talk about impact?

When was the last time the rules were changed to stop Jordan from scoring more?

Do you even know the dunk was banned in college because Kareem was dominant with it? Did you know it was reinstated after he turned pro?

3 NYC hs championships
3 NCAA titles 3 Most Outstanding Player awards
6 NBA titles 6 MVPs

How does Jordan measure up to those?

Failed to make the hs team at one point.
Was third option in college on one championship team
6 NBA titles and 5 MVPs.

Give me the guy who dominated at every level.

"5-0 said freeze, and I got numb, can I tell em that I really never had a gun"


:hammertime:

MJ was a great interior defender as well.

Lets put it this way...... MJ was a better interior defender than those bigs were perimeter defenders.

And MJ was just as great in the paint, but they weren't nearly as good in the perimeter.

And MJ's interior defense didn't just consist of ball denial or man to man either. He was better than they were at roaming and switching which presented different problems. We all know that he's probably the GOAT shot blocking non big of all time, so he could block the bigs as well.

The rules probably weren't changed for Jordan, but "The Jordan Rules" revolutionized defense. MJ revolutionized an entire sport and redefined what "winning" is all about.

When was the last time somebody said....."He's the Kareem of his field?" NEVER.... but "he's the Michael Jordan of _____" is a common phrase that's been used in our lexicon for a while now.

And yeah.... if I were you, I wouldn't wanna get into the 'impact' aspect.

Stick to posting high school and college accomplishments.

[chitownsfinest]

Get at me when Jordan can win without Pippen or Phil.

Get at me when Jordan can take a team with less than 30 wins the season before he got there to over 50 wins in his rookie season.

Get at me when Jordan can be MVP on a losing team.

Get at me when can win a finals MVP in his late 30s, since finals MVP is your only hope.

Get at me when Jordan has the most points scored, ever.


Longetivity=dedication to ones body and mind in preparation for greatness.

Jordan retired twice because he had trouble with the heat.


Until then, Kareem>Jordan.

"men lie, women lie, numbers don't"
:hammertime:
LMFAO @ using the old bailout line by Jordan haters.
Let's start with MJ cannot win without Pip. MJ led the Bulls to a 50 win season with Pip as a rookie and only averaging 8 ppg. He led them past the first round with Pip averaging an amazing 10 ppg. Let me guess, it was Pip's 10 ppg that got them past the first round? :oldlol:
The next season's playoffs, MJ took the Bulls to the conference while putting up 35/7/7.6 and with his second highest scorer averaging a mind blowing 13 ppg. MJ took the Pistons to game 6 and dealt them their only two losses they had in the playoffs in the process all without having home court in the process. Let me guess, it was Pip's 13 ppg that took them there right? :oldlol:
Let's not forget what he did in 97 and 98 either. It is well known that Pip was banged up in 97 and in 98, Pip was virtually out of it. Pip was at a hof level 91-96, but in those two seasons he wasn't. Here I will play that game as well, get at me when Kareem can win without Magic or Oscar.

Get at me when Kareem can lead his team to a three peat.

Ages at winning the finals MVP:
MJ: 28, 29, 30, 33, 34, 35
KAJ: 24 and 38
Sure KAJ won once in his late 30s but MJ won three time in his mid 30s which is greater then just winning once in your late 30s. Why wasn't KAJ able to do this?

Point scored at 1072 games (MJ's total):
MJ 32,292
KAJ 29, 810

Career ppg:
MJ: 30.1
KAJ 24.6

[KAJ=GOAT]

MJ was a great interior defender as well.

Lets put it this way...... MJ was a better interior defender than those bigs were perimeter defenders.

And MJ was just as great in the paint, but they weren't nearly as good in the perimeter.

And MJ's interior defense didn't just consist of ball denial or man to man either. He was better than they were at roaming and switching which presented different problems. We all know that he's probably the GOAT shot blocking non big of all time, so he could block the bigs as well.

The rules probably weren't changed for Jordan, but "The Jordan Rules" revolutionized defense. MJ revolutionized an entire sport and redefined what "winning" is all about.

When was the last time somebody said....."He's the Kareem of his field?" NEVER.... but "he's the Michael Jordan of _____" is a common phrase that's been used in our lexicon for a while now.

And yeah.... if I were you, I wouldn't wanna get into the 'impact' aspect.

Stick to posting high school and college accomplishments.


Get at me when Kareem had the luxury of ESPN and the Nike hype machine behind him. Until then, lets keep things basketball related.

I'm talking impact on the court, not global impact. This about the game of basketball, not celebrity worship. Impact doesn't get any bigger than a league or organization changing the rules to stop your dominance. Kareem changed his teams outlook from less than 30 wins in the season before he arrived to 50 plus in his rookie year, to a championship in his second.

That is impact unrivaled. Think about that for a moment.

Less than 30 wins prior to Kareem.
50 plus with Kareem.


Let me put it this way in your defense mantra.

How many times did bigs even get out to the perimeter?

Circumstances and perspective, lets try to keep them in mind.


but yea, tell me how great the Jordan myth would be without ESPN, Nike and Haynes.

If you want to talk true global impact without media backing,

look no further than Muhammed Ali. Now that is a true athelete who transcended not only his sport, but athletics as a whole.


Don't get me wrong, Jordan is easily without a doubt an all time great, but the way some people put him on a pedestal without peer is just riduculous and outright disrespectful to the other greats of the game. Its as if some people only want to believe he played for 6 years without fail. We both know that isn't the case.

"here is something you can't understand, how I could just kill a man"

:hammertime:

[chitownsfinest]

Since KAJ=GOAT gets a hard on from posting KAJ's career season total, why not go into career playoff total?
MJ's total career playoff points: 5987 (179 games)
KAJ's total career playoff points: 5762 (237 games)
Also, people note that KAJ has one more mvp then MJ but MJ has 4 more finals mvp's then KAJ. Notice the gap between finals mvp's is much larger then the gap of regular season mvp's.

[Alpha Wolf]

Relative to the rest of the league MJ had the best core in the league for a good 7-8 years. Kareem had what, Oscar on his last legs? This was especially obvious in the '74 season. After that, prime Kareem never really got the teams to compete, like Jordan had, or Bird/Magic had. Guy was literally leading 15-20 win teams to 50+ wins for the later portion of the 70s.

If I'm a Laker fan, I'm pissed at how the media has drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the great players. What a shame that these careers aren't getting the respect they deserve. The GOAT title in basketball is closer and tighter than in any other major North American sports (other than NFL because of all the different positions), but you wouldn't know it.


:applause:



NIKE paid ESPN and the NBA for advertising rights, and as the company got bigger, they were able to pay incredible sums to both the NBA and to ESPN in exchange for the promotion of Jordan as the best player ever.

Haven't you ever wondered why only in basketball is ONE player UNIVERSALLY promoted by the league and by TV networks (such as ESPN) as being better than everyone else?

That's not done in baseball.

That's not done in football.

Only in basketball do we see ONE player promoted by the league and by ESPN as the best ever...thanks to NIKE

Now you know why.


Basketball is the only sport that promotes one player as being supposedly better than anyone else who ever walked on a court. Why? Bucks...BIG bucks.


But listen, you have to hand it to them...look at all the suckers who just gotta have the latest Jordans, lol. And you know they all suck at basketball anyway, no matter what shoes they wear, lol.

[KAJ=GOAT]

LMFAO @ using the old bailout line by Jordan haters.
Let's start with MJ cannot win without Pip. MJ led the Bulls to a 50 win season with Pip as a rookie and only averaging 8 ppg. He led them past the first round with Pip averaging an amazing 10 ppg. Let me guess, it was Pip's 10 ppg that got them past the first round? :oldlol:
The next season's playoffs, MJ took the Bulls to the conference while putting up 35/7/7.6 and with his second highest scorer averaging a mind blowing 13 ppg. MJ took the Pistons to game 6 and dealt them their only two losses they had in the playoffs in the process all without having home court in the process. Let me guess, it was Pip's 13 ppg that took them there right? :oldlol:
Let's not forget what he did in 97 and 98 either. It is well known that Pip was banged up in 97 and in 98, Pip was virtually out of it. Pip was at a hof level 91-96, but in those two seasons he wasn't. Here I will play that game as well, get at me when Kareem can win without Magic or Oscar.

Get at me when Kareem can lead his team to a three peat.

Ages at winning the finals MVP:
MJ: 28, 29, 30, 33, 34, 35
KAJ: 24 and 38
Sure KAJ won once in his late 30s but MJ won three time in his mid 30s which is greater then just winning once in your late 30s. Why wasn't KAJ able to do this?

Point scored at 1072 games (MJ's total):
MJ 32,292
KAJ 29, 810

Career ppg:
MJ: 30.1
KAJ 24.6


Well, ****, if thats the case,

Russell>Jordan.


8 peat>measley 3 peat.

"oh, but that was different"


But yea, try to tell how 6 is better than 6 again. I'd like to hear it.


"here we go yo, here we go you, so whats, whats the scenario?"

:hammertime:

[Alpha Wolf]

Well, ****, if thats the case,

Russell>Jordan.


8 peat>measley 3 peat.

"oh, but that was different"


But yea, try to tell how 6 is better than 6 again. I'd like to hear it.


"here we go yo, here we go you, so whats, whats the scenario?"

:hammertime:

:oldlol: well you gotta realize most Jordan jockers(aka idiots brainwashed by the media) belive that 6 rings is a record or something

[KAJ=GOAT]

Since KAJ=GOAT gets a hard on from posting KAJ's career season total, why not go into career playoff total?
MJ's total career playoff points: 5987 (179 games)
KAJ's total career playoff points: 5762 (237 games)
Also, people note that KAJ has one more mvp then MJ but MJ has 4 more finals mvp's then KAJ. Notice the gap between finals mvp's is much larger then the gap of regular season mvp's.


How about we just go into all time accomplishments since thats what endears us most when discussing

the

greatest

of

all

time
?

No, why not?

Please do tell, because I'm wondering how "all time" only equates to "NBA career".


Last I checked, the thread is about the greatest of all time, not greatest player with the most finals MVPs.

"no escape from the toxic trait"

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

:applause:




NIKE paid ESPN and the NBA for advertising rights, and as the company got bigger, they were able to pay incredible sums to both the NBA and to ESPN in exchange for the promotion of Jordan as the best player ever.

Haven't you ever wondered why only in basketball is ONE player UNIVERSALLY promoted by the league and by TV networks (such as ESPN) as being better than everyone else?

That's not done in baseball.

That's not done in football.

Only in basketball do we see one player promoted by the league and by ESPN as the best ever...thanks to NIKE

Now you know why.


Basketball is the only sport that promotes one player as being supposedly better than anyone else who ever walked on a court. Why? Bucks...BIG bucks.


But listen, you have to hand it to them...look at all the suckers who just gotta have the latest Jordans, lol. And you know they all suck at basketball anyway, no matter what shoes they wear, lol.

Maybe because MJ was just THAT great?

No matter how high the expectations or hype were, he always surpassed it.

[Alpha Wolf]

Maybe because MJ was just THAT great?

No matter how high the expectations or hype were, he always surpassed it.


You missed the point, andgar923. Keep drinking the Kool-aid

[chitownsfinest]

Well, ****, if thats the case,

Russell>Jordan.


8 peat>measley 3 peat.

"oh, but that was different"


But yea, try to tell how 6 is better than 6 again. I'd like to hear it.


"here we go yo, here we go you, so whats, whats the scenario?"[/COLOR]

:hammertime:
First of all, stop with your gay as fu*k purple text.
Secondly, Jordan leading his team to a three peat wasn't the only reason I used so can't just go off topic and talk about Russell. This is between MJ and KAJ. You clearly cannot respond to it in a formal way.

Also, LMAO @ you using another bailout line. Yep, I was influenced by those damn Jordan commercials. Even though most of the commercial usually had nothing to do with b-ball most the time, those damn commercials made me think Jordan was the GOAT by sending brain signals to my head even though I could give two fu*ks about Jordan's corporate business.

[chitownsfinest]

]How about we just go into all time accomplishments since thats what endears us most when discussing

the

greatest

of

all

time
?

No, why not?

Please do tell, because I'm wondering how "all time" only equates to "NBA career".


Last I checked, the thread is about the greatest of all time, not greatest player with the most finals MVPs.



Playoff accomplishments fall into all time accomplishments. Don't act like it doesen't count.

[AirJordan23]

You can argue that being the best player for 82 games>>>>>>>> being the best player in 4-7 games.
You can also argue that Malone's MVP over Jordan back in '97 was totally undeserved. Seriously, there is no argument for Jordan not winning that year. Jordan had the best combination of stats and team record (69-13) which is the main criteria that is used to judge how valuable a player is. There are exceptions such as turning a team around ala the reason Nash won MVP in '05. But, that didn't apply to Malone that year. So, the amount of MVPs would be the same.

[chitownsfinest]

You can argue that being the best player for 82 games>>>>>>>> being the best player in 4-7 games.
What is the point of having an NBA career? Winning championships. What are the most important games of a season? The Finals. Who stepped up the most in the Finals consistently (don't bring up Parker or Billups winning it)? Jordan

[andgar923]

Get at me when Kareem had the luxury of ESPN and the Nike hype machine behind him. Until then, lets keep things basketball related.

I'm talking impact on the court, not global impact. This about the game of basketball, not celebrity worship. Impact doesn't get any bigger than a league or organization changing the rules to stop your dominance. Kareem changed his teams outlook from less than 30 wins in the season before he arrived to 50 plus in his rookie year, to a championship in his second.



That is impact unrivaled. Think about that for a moment.

Less than 30 wins prior to Kareem.
50 plus with Kareem.


Let me put it this way in your defense mantra.

How many times did bigs even get out to the perimeter?

Circumstances and perspective, lets try to keep them in mind.


but yea, tell me how great the Jordan myth would be without ESPN, Nike and Haynes.

If you want to talk true global impact without media backing,

look no further than Muhammed Ali. Now that is a true athelete who transcended not only his sport, but athletics as a whole.


Don't get me wrong, Jordan is easily without a doubt an all time great, but the way some people put him on a pedestal without peer is just riduculous and outright disrespectful to the other greats of the game. Its as if some people only want to believe he played for 6 years without fail. We both know that isn't the case.

"here is something you can't understand, how I could just kill a man"

:hammertime:


You yourself just agreed that bigs didn't go out of the paint much, right?

Well, MJ used to defend EVERY spot on the court.... that's not impact?
Jordan had teams invent new defensive schemes that changed the way defense is played, that's not impact?
MJ won 6 rings without a dominant center.... that's not impact?
MJ won 2 Three Peats!!!!!!.... that's not impact?
Mj changed the rules in which we define greatness.... that's not impact?
Scoring champs rarely won titles (if ever), MJ won 6... .that's not impact?

MJ used to do alot of what Kareem and other bigs did, but can we say the same about them?

YOu can try to spin this any way you can. MJ was just the better player, and that's not to disrespect any of the other players mentioned. MJ could do more than they could.

You love to throw around Kareem's accolades, fair enough.
But we must also remember that the media didn't wanna give MJ the MVP every year because it "wasn't fair."

[KAJ=GOAT]

Maybe because MJ was just THAT great?

No matter how high the expectations or hype were, he always surpassed it.



Nobody is denying his greatness. We all watched in awe at what he did.

People are just pointing out the different circumstances the league was in during the 70s as compared to the 80s and 90s.

Do you realize the finals in the 70s were shown on tape delay?

Jordan came into the league during the perfect storm.

He rode on the coattails of NBA popularity that was given a boost by Magic and Bird. Add cable tv and ESPN into the mix, and you have more access to basketball than ever before.

lol at thinking it was just because he was so much better than anyone else.


"Bass, the final frontier, these are the voyages of the xmen"

:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

Playoff accomplishments fall into all time accomplishments. Don't act like it doesen't count.


and I said that were?

"are you ready to throw down"

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

You missed the point, andgar923. Keep drinking the Kool-aid

Uhhh.... no.

You're just an idiot.

You're stating that we're all brainwashed into believing Mj is the GOAT. And I countered that his play on the court backs it up.

So no matter what the hype was, no matter how high the expectations were, MJ surpassed them. We all knew he was great, we all expected him to be the hero, but he always surpassed everybody's expectations.

[Alpha Wolf]

You can also argue that Malone's MVP over Jordan back in '97 was totally undeserved. Seriously, there is no argument for Jordan not winning that year. Jordan had the best combination of stats and team record (69-13) which is the main criteria that is used to judge how valuable a player is. There are exceptions such as turning a team around ala the reason Nash won MVP in '05. But, that didn't apply to Malone that year. So, the amount of MVPs would be the same.


when Jordan retired in 1994 the Bulls were still title contenders!!!...and they replaced MJ with a CBA player!!!!...he can't be that valuable

[KAJ=GOAT]

You yourself just agreed that bigs didn't go out of the paint much, right?

Well, MJ used to defend EVERY spot on the court.... that's not impact?
Jordan had defensive schemes and changed the way defense is played, that's not impact?
MJ won 6 rings without a dominant center.... that's not impact?
MJ won 2 Three Peats!!!!!!.... that's not impact?
Mj changed the rules in which we define greatness.... that's not impact?
Scoring champs rarely won titles (if ever), MJ won 6... .that's not impact?

MJ used to do alot of what Kareem and other bigs did, but can we say the same about them?

YOu can try to spin this any way you can. MJ was just the better player, and that's not to disrespect any of the other players mentioned. MJ could do more than they could.

You love to throw around Kareem's accolades, fair enough.
But we must also remember that the media didn't wanna give MJ the MVP every year because it "wasn't fair."



Circumstance and perspective.

How many bigs back then played on the perimeter?


When you can get back to the basics of how to keep things in proper perspective, get at me dog.



btw, I'm still wondering what was impacted by what you claim is impact. What changed in the league because of what Jordan did? Winning without a particular player isn't impact. Thats an accomplishment. Two 3 peats isn't impact, thats an accomplishment. Change the rules in how we define greatness? Can you prove that?

The only on court impact Jordan had, was the way teams defended him. The league never changed rules to stop him from scoring. As a matter of fact, the 3 point line was moved closer to the basket to increase scoring, and no I'm not saying they did it because of Jordan.

But um, you say Jordan can do what bigs can do, but bigs can't do what Jordan can do. So I have a question. Can you point me to the direction wher it says Jordan can grab 16 boards a game and block 3.5 shots?


"hold up, wait a minute, let me put some boooom in it"




:hammertime:

[Alpha Wolf]

Nobody is denying his greatness. We all watched in awe at what he did.

People are just pointing out the different circumstances the league was in during the 70s as compared to the 80s and 90s.

Do you realize the finals in the 70s were shown on tape delay?

Jordan came into the league during the perfect storm.

He rode on the coattails of NBA popularity that was given a boost by Magic and Bird. Add cable tv and ESPN into the mix, and you have more access to basketball than ever before.

lol at thinking it was just because he was so much better than anyone else.


"Bass, the final frontier, these are the voyages of the xmen"

:hammertime:

Finally a WOLF with knowledge!!

you gotta understand Jordan fans are all sheep to the media they are all followers



No athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America

[KAJ=GOAT]

Finally a WOLF with knowledge!!

you gotta understand Jordan fans are all sheep to the media they are all followers



No athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America


My grampa was a wolf. :rockon:


But true story, people tend to overlook things of this nature.

Funny thing is, I notice Lebron is getting the Jordan treatment right now in terms of marketing and media coverage. Probably not as much, but definitely the biggest marketing push of the last few seasons.


"carne asada lappin on the grill, so now we eat"

:hammertime:

[branslowski]

Finally a WOLF with knowledge!!

you gotta understand Jordan fans are all sheep to the media they are all followers



No athlete in the past two decades who has been more over-hyped, more promoted, and more marketed than Michael Jordan. He could not possibly live up to those standards. Between movies, shoes, cereal boxes, fast food and everything else he's advertised, who hasn't heard of Michael Jordan ?


He came along at just the right time. David Stern became commissioner and heavily marketed the NBA to corporate America

MJ fans, just think for a minute....The same way you feel about this guy (Alpha Wolf) is the same way Kobe fans feel about Bruce Blitz and sometimes his follower's....Kobe has a Bruce Blitz.....Jordan has a Alpha Wolf.....

Alpha Wolf/Bruce Blitz....2 Of A Kind.....

[andgar923]

Circumstance and perspective.

How many bigs back then played on the perimeter?


When you can get back to the basics of how to keep things in proper perspective, get at me dog.

Is that supposed to matter? if they were that great they would've changed that... no?





btw, I'm still wondering what was impacted by what you claim is impact. What changed in the league because of what Jordan did? Winning without a particular player isn't impact. Thats an accomplishment. Two 3 peats isn't impact, thats an accomplishment. Change the rules in how we define greatness? Can you prove that?

That's fine.... we can change the terms from impact to 'accomplishment' and that would still mean that he won 2 Three peats and Kareem didn't.



The only on court impact Jordan had, was the way teams defended him. The league never changed rules to stop him from scoring. As a matter of fact, the 3 point line was moved closer to the basket to increase scoring, and no I'm not saying they did it because of Jordan.

But um, you say Jordan can do what bigs can do, but bigs can't do what Jordan can do. So I have a question. Can you point me to the direction wher it says Jordan can grab 16 boards a game and block 3.5 shots?


"hold up, wait a minute, let me put some boooom in it"




:hammertime:

I never mentioned that he could play better post defense than they could. I mentioned that he was as good and in some areas more impactful. But since you don't have much of an argument, you want to turn this into 'wording' issue.... smart tactic to win an argument. But my point still stands.....

MJ could dominate the game from any spot on the court better than Kareem.

Its that simple.

[andgar923]

MJ fans, just think for a minute....The same way you feel about this guy (Alpha Wolf) is the same way Kobe fans feel about Bruce Blitz and sometimes his follower's....Kobe has a Bruce Blitz.....Jordan has a Alpha Wolf.....

Alpha Wolf/Bruce Blitz....2 Of A Kind.....

No because we all know that Bruce knows about basketball.

Wolf only knows Kobe.

The problem people have with Bruce is his aggressiveness, not his content. Wolf isn't as aggressive, but he posts the most idiotic sh@t in the world. He's so bad that other Kobe stans are ashamed of him.

[Dave3]

MJ fans, just think for a minute....The same way you feel about this guy (Alpha Wolf) is the same way Kobe fans feel about Bruce Blitz and sometimes his follower's....Kobe has a Bruce Blitz.....Jordan has a Alpha Wolf.....

Alpha Wolf/Bruce Blitz....2 Of A Kind.....
No they're not, heck, they're not even close. Bruce may be borderline insane, but at least he posts up facts. This guy has said before that Kobe has deserved every MVP since 1999 and never makes any decent points. He makes Bruce actually look normal.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I never mentioned that he could play better post defense than they could. I mentioned that he was as good and in some areas more impactful. But since you don't have much of an argument, you want to turn this into 'wording' issue.... smart tactic to win an argument. But my point still stands.....

MJ could dominate the game from any spot on the court better than Kareem.

Its that simple.


Again, how many bigs played in the perimeter at that time? Why would Kareem even defend in the perimeter if thats not where his man was? Do you realize how silly you look right now?

Jordan could dominate the paint better than Kareem? :no:

accomplishment = an act or instance of carrying into effect; fulfillment: the accomplishment of our desires.

impact = influence; effect:

Do you kids really think before you reply?

Game over stanley.


"pelon psyclone, delivering a metal rainstorm"

[branslowski]

No because we all know that Bruce knows about basketball.

Wolf only knows Kobe.

The problem people have with Bruce is his aggressiveness, not his content. Wolf isn't as aggressive, but he posts the most idiotic sh@t in the world. He's so bad that other Kobe stans are ashamed of him.

Im not comparing them on a Know all Basketball detail....Just about their Agenda's against Kobe/Jordan....

Fact is...Both Alpha Wolf and Bruce are unfair idiot's who have an Agenda...Ofcource you aren't gonna get upset with Bruce's agenda...And truthfully, I don't get all upset with Alpha Wolf's Agenda...I just say, both Alpha and Bruce are idiot's in their Agenda's....

Also, they both post Facts....But they Nit pick the Negative ones to fit their Agenda's....The opposing side's see this easy...The Captain's of the Jordan/Kobe Stan club's....

Jordan Fans deal with Alpha....Kobe fans deal with Bruce....The way of Life I guess....Sports life..

[branslowski]

No they're not, heck, they're not even close. Bruce may be borderline insane, but at least he posts up facts. This guy has said before that Kobe has deserved every MVP since 1999 and never makes any decent points. He makes Bruce actually look normal.

No...What's the difference really between...

Alpha Posting MJ's Record in the Playoffs without Pippen, and going on and on about it.

Bruce posting and cherry picking all of Kobe's down falls and going on and on about it.

They are both sporting Facts....But they are Whoring and Sporting only the Negative one's to fit their Agenda....

2 Pee's in a pie....

[Alpha Wolf]

No they're not, heck, they're not even close. Bruce may be borderline insane, but at least he posts up facts. This guy has said before that Kobe has deserved every MVP since 1999 and never makes any decent points. He makes Bruce actually look normal.

borderline insane? the guy has two jumpman logos tattooed on him www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136769




And if I did ever say Kobe deserved every MVP since 1999 it was probably a sock post

at least I have a mind of my own bruce blitz copies and pasts the same essays and wikipedia articles everytime

[lbj23clutch]

No...What's the difference really between...

Alpha Posting MJ's Record in the Playoffs without Pippen, and going on and on about it.

Bruce posting and cherry picking all of Kobe's down falls and going on and on about it.

They are both sporting Facts....But they are Whoring and Sporting only the Negative one's to fit their Agenda....

2 Pee's in a pie....
Aside from the Kobe agenda thing Bruce actually knows his **** and the history of the game. Alpha is just a dumbass and delusional like PAH. The problem for bruce is he has an obsession with downgrading Kobe, but outside of that bruce knows the game well.

[Dave3]

No...What's the difference really between...

Alpha Posting MJ's Record in the Playoffs without Pippen, and going on and on about it.

Bruce posting and cherry picking all of Kobe's down falls and going on and on about it.

They are both sporting Facts....But they are Whoring and Sporting only the Negative one's to fit their Agenda....

2 Pee's in a pie....
1. Bruce posts WAY more information, and that's what his posts are based on. This guy rarely posts facts and is trying to convince us that we're all brainwashed for thinking MJ is great.
2. Bruce doesn't have insane ideas like Kobe should've gotten the last 11 MVPs all in a row.
3. It's two peas in a "pod" not a pie lol.

Disclaimer: I however don't support 99% of Bruce's crap and it does actually bother me.

[andgar923]

Again, how many bigs played in the perimeter at that time? Why would Kareem even defend in the perimeter if thats not where his man was? Do you realize how silly you look right now?

Jordan could dominate the paint better than Kareem? :no:

accomplishment = an act or instance of carrying into effect; fulfillment: the accomplishment of our desires.

impact = influence; effect:

Do you kids really think before you reply?

Game over stanley.


"pelon psyclone, delivering a metal rainstorm"

Why would Kareem be out on the perimeter?

I dunno... maybe defending a pick and roll? or a transition? or mismatch? you know that sorta thing happens in basketball. Or maybe to just to roam the court and help out like Russell did.

I NEVER mentioned that MJ could dominate the paint 'better' than Kareem. You clearly have a reading comprehension or you love to twist comments.

Also, many have mentioned MJ is possibly the GOAT post player and many others have mentioned that MJ is a top 5 post player. And these have been current and ex players and coaches.

LOL @ a Troll calling somebody out :roll:

[Alpha Wolf]

Aside from the Kobe agenda thing Bruce actually knows his **** and the history of the game. Alpha is just a dumbass and delusional like PAH. The problem for bruce is he has an obsession with downgrading Kobe, but outside of that bruce knows the game well.

knows his shyt? all he does is copy and paste the same essays/wikipedia articles everytime that he already has prepared on micrsoft word :oldlol:

[KAJ=GOAT]

Why would Kareem be out on the perimeter?

I dunno... maybe defending a pick and roll? or a transition? or mismatch? you know that sorta thing happens in basketball. Or maybe to just to roam the court and help out like Russell did.

I NEVER mentioned that MJ could dominate the paint 'better' than Kareem. You clearly have a reading comprehension or you love to twist comments.

Also, many have mentioned MJ is possibly the GOAT post player and many others have mentioned that MJ is a top 5 post player. And these have been current and ex players and coaches.

LOL @ a Troll calling somebody out :roll:


So you're saying Kareem didn't do those things? Defend pick and roll and everything else you mentioned? Seriously? I made my comment in relation to you saying Kareem basically needed to be out on the perimeter defending jumpshots. If I misunderstood you, so be it. But it seemed as if you wanted him defending guards.



MJ could dominate the game from any spot on the court better than Kareem.


I think its you that has a problem communicating your point.




Lmao at Jordan being a better post player than all time great bigs.


"you better keep an eye, on your close friends".



:hammertime:

[branslowski]

knows his shyt? all he does is copy and paste the same essays/wikipedia articles everytime that he already has prepared on micrsoft word :oldlol:

This is True....He can't debate for sh!t....And once he notice's that your kicking his ass in a debate, he copy and paste his ass away and then put's you on his GOAT like Ignore list....

Bruce is a fraud, and his followers just don't want to see the light...

[Cyclone112]

Lmao at Jordan being a better post player than all time great bigs.

You really do have a reading comprehension disability.

[KAJ=GOAT]

You really do have a reading disability.


Really?


many have mentioned MJ is possibly the GOAT post player


Care to elaborate?


"cold correct, so I jet, back to my room"



:hammertime:

[andgar923]

So you're saying Kareem didn't do those things? Defend pick and roll and everything else you mentioned? Seriously? I made my comment in relation to you saying Kareem basically needed to be out on the perimeter defending jumpshots. If I misunderstood you, so be it. But it seemed as if you wanted him defending guards.





I think its you that has a problem communicating your point.




Lmao at Jordan being a better post player than all time great bigs.


"you better keep an eye, on your close friends".



:hammertime:

I'll be the first to admit, that at times my posts are confusing from time to time.

[andgar923]

Really?




Care to elaborate?


"cold correct, so I jet, back to my room"



:hammertime:

I believe Tex or Phil mentioned that.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I'll be the first to admit, that at times my posts are confusing from time to time.


I appreciate you taking the time to admit your error. That takes honor. :rockon:

"vanglorious, this is protected, by the red, the black and the green, with a key, ssssiiiissssyyyy"


:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

I believe Tex or Phil mentioned that.


I've also heard Phil mention a certain LA star was better skilled than a certain Chicago star,

but I don't put much stock into it seeing as how often times coaches have to be careful of what they say depending on the situation.

"out of the darkness in panther skin"

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

I appreciate you taking the time to admit your error. That takes honor. :rockon:

"vanglorious, this is protected, by the red, the black and the green, with a key, ssssiiiissssyyyy"


:hammertime:

Its the truth, so its easy to say if I made a mistake. I could try and clarify what I meant, but that'll turn into an argument as well, don't see a point to that.

[lbj23clutch]

This is True....He can't debate for sh!t....And once he notice's that your kicking his ass in a debate, he copy and paste his ass away and then put's you on his GOAT like Ignore list....

Bruce is a fraud, and his followers just don't want to see the light...
LOL im no follower of Bruce, the same guy who has banned me on his youtube page... i think the guy is annoying, but guys like Alpha or Fatal are just as bad.

[andgar923]

I've also heard Phil mention a certain LA star was better skilled than a certain Chicago star,

but I don't put much stock into it seeing as how often times coaches have to be careful of what they say depending on the situation.

"out of the darkness in panther skin"

:hammertime:

When I heard that clip, I took it with a grain of salt because there was a certain tongue and cheek matter in which he said it. I might be wrong, on that but he parses his words carefully.

Now remember, we must understand Phil and Kobe's history to see why he responded the way he did.

If Phil had said without giving it much thought that MJ was the better player, what would Kobe's reaction be?

Not to make this into a Kobe vs Mj thread, but we've all witnessed first hand how he reacts at times.

I think Phil and his staff have been more measured in how they deal with him. We'll truly get to see how they honestly feel after Kobe retires, since Phil will still be associated with the Lakers organization.

[Roundball_Rock]

and if you look at his playoff production it stayed within the same range until he was about 33 years old.

Good point. I checked and his best scoring playoff run was 70' when he averaged 35.2/17/4 on 57% shooting. However, his best run was probably at age 29 when he averaged 34.6/18/4 on 61% shooting. During his first championship season he averaged 27 ppg and did the same thing at age 35 in 1983 (although his rebounding dropped off to a mediocre-to-bad level for a center in the 80's while in the 70's he was a beast on the boards). Heck, even at age 38 he averaged 26 ppg on 56%.

As to rings, Kareem was the best player for his first three and probably the fourth. Even for his fifth he averaged 19.5 ppg as part of a balanced three-headed Magic/Worthy/Kareem attack. Only during his final championship year could he fairly be described as a role player.

All that said, Pippen has 6 rings but because he was the "#2 option" behind the GOAT he does not receive full credit for them. We cannot then give Kareem full credit for his when he clearly was not the best player for his final two championships. Either give all indispensable players full credit (to separate them from Robert Horry and Steve Kerr types) or apply the same, seemingly 3/4 credit standard to each one who was indispensable but was not the best player on his team (Pippen, Kobe from 2000-02, Kareem for some rings, Magic from some rings, etc.). It is funny how Pippen and Kobe are constantly attacked for winning as the "#2 option" while people like Kareem, Oscar and Magic get a free pass on this and get full credit for all their rings. If Pippen is given full credit then he has a strong case for being top 10 all-time...


ven jordan. if he has a better team and doesnt retire in his prime for basically 2 years does he end up with abpout 4 more rings? a

How many rings would MJ have won if he were on the 80's Lakers? :eek:


6 NBA titles 6 MVPs, most points ever> 6 NBA titles 5 MVPs.

You have to factor in years played when it is this close. Jordan went 6-0 in the finals--Kareem 6-4 despite having superior teams than Jordan.


Haven't you ever wondered why only in basketball is ONE player UNIVERSALLY promoted by the league and by TV networks (such as ESPN) as being better than everyone else?

That's not done in baseball.

That's not done in football.

What you say is generally true but hockey is similar in marketing around two players like the NBA does around Kobe/Lebron today as well as golf with Tiger/Mickelson. I do agree, though, that baseball and football, and NASCAR for that matter, do not focus exclusively on one or two stars.

[gts]

I believe Tex or Phil mentioned that.took me a while but i found it...


Winter says they're both very much alike:
"They both display tremendous reaction, quickness and jumping ability. Both have a good shooting touch. Some people say Kobe is a better shooter, but Michael really developed as a shooter as he went along. I don't know if Kobe is a better shooter than Michael was at his best."
Observers like to point out that Jordan played on a Chicago Bulls team with no great center, but Winter always countered that Jordan was a great post-up player and in essence was the premier post weapon of his time.

Bryant himself came into the NBA with amazingly good post skills, but there was never room for him to play in the post with Shaquille O'Neal occupying the lane during their years together with the Lakers.

In a lot of ways, Bryant is Jordan's equal as a post player, Winter said, except for one critical element. "What's happened to Kobe and his post play - and he is a great post player - is that he's catching the ball just out of the lane and the defenders are forcing him out toward the wing."

As a result of getting pushed out of the post, Winter worries that Bryant may rely too heavily on three-pointers, which Bryant often shoots against intense pressure.

don't have the link, mine is dead, Lazenby changed sites and all the "lakernoise" archived stuff is gone now. but i belive it was an article Lazenby wrote for ESPN 2 maybe 3 years ago

[RainierBeachPoet]

every several months this topic of kareem comes up. i have stated in other threads that it could be argued well either way on different levels. i dont feel like resurrecting old posts from the past

there has been some good points brought up

kblaze usually chimes in when kaj goat questions come up and he argues persuasively for kaj as goat

one thing i can say is that i watched kareem ever since the early 70s and he was a very dominant player both offensively and defensively. if the media machine that exists today could capture what kaj did on the court, there would be many converts

unfortunately, kareem had a mostly hostile and at best indifferent corp of newswriters. being muslim, a deep-thinking man and keeping the media at a distance did not endear him in the public's eye

as for the showtime lakers, kareem was still the best player on the team as late as 1986. it was after that point that magic's and kareem's roles changed. magic flourished because of cap in those formative years and the baton was passed to him well after kareem started to decline a bit because of age. in fact, the team was much better balanced when the repeated in 87, 88

of course, the media loved the magic (vs bird) angle of things. but for those who closely followed the game, the lakers were much more than just magic-- they were a complete team. everyone here at ish knows that it is the whole team that wins championships, not just one guy. that is why in goat conversations, championships are one aspect of the totaly picture, but not the primary factor

[KAJ=GOAT]

. if the media machine that exists today could capture what kaj did on the court, there would be many converts

unfortunately, kareem had a mostly hostile and at best indifferent corp of newswriters. being muslim, a deep-thinking man and keeping the media at a distance did not endear him in the public's eye


:applause:



People here, especially the younger crowd, are seriously underestimating the power of persuasion when it comes to the media and marketing and how the individual is recieved by the press.



"something something, something something just aint right"


:hammertime:

[Fatal9]

The press already labeled Jordan as the greatest ever after the third ring, which is hilarious. The only case he has over Kareem (and Wilt) was because of the three additional rings he won in the second 3peat, but to say the media wasn't cheerleading and building up his image is incorrect, as the media had a lot to do with shaping public opinion.


You have to factor in years played when it is this close. Jordan went 6-0 in the finals--Kareem 6-4 despite having superior teams than Jordan.
I don't think this is really fair. Kareem lost to the Bird led Celtics (twice), which were some of the greatest teams ever, the '74 Celtics (with a 35 year old Oscar playing like his next best player...seriously ANY help, and he wins that series), and the Sixers. During the Sixers series, first of all he was 35 (which doesn't really matter considering how good he still was), but James Worthy and McAdoo were both injured (basically their entire bench!) and Worthy didn't play a single game in the finals. Magic and Norm Nixon also stunk it up (shot 40% each), but Kareem carried his own weight.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for most of his prime, whereas Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, Kareem won 6, 3 of them as the best player, remained the go-to guy at least till the 5th ring. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!). No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

[Duncan21formvp]

The press already labeled Jordan as the greatest ever after the third ring, which is hilarious. The only case he has over Kareem (and Wilt) was because of the three additional rings he won in the second 3peat, but to say the media wasn't cheerleading and building up his image is incorrect, as the media had a lot to do with shaping public opinion.


I don't think this is really fair. Kareem lost to the Bird led Celtics (twice), which were some of the greatest teams ever, the '74 Celtics (with a 35 year old Oscar playing like his next best player...seriously ANY help, and he wins that series), and the Sixers. During the Sixers series, first of all he was 35 (which doesn't really matter considering how good he still was), but James Worthy and McAdoo were both injured (basically their entire bench!) and Worthy didn't play a single game in the finals. Magic and Norm Nixon also stunk it up (shot 40% each), but Kareem carried his own weight.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for most of his prime, whereas Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, Kareem won 6, 3 of them as the best player, remained the go-to guy at least till the 5th ring. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!). No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.


Kareem lost 5 series with homecourt advantage. Which means he had the superior team. He even lost to teams below .500. There was not a single team that could literally challenge LA in the 80's out west. It was a cakewalk for them.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Statistically more dominant than Jordan.

Uhh, no. Kareem is one of the 4-5 most statistically dominant players ever, but he wasn't more statistically dominant than Jordan.

[gts]

Kareem lost 5 series with homecourt advantage. Which means he had the superior team. He even lost to teams below .500. There was not a single team that could literally challenge LA in the 80's out west. It was a cakewalk for them.ooooo holy smoke a smokin gun! lol shhh let the grownups talk here...lol

he played in 49 playoff series and the teams he played on racked up a 37-12 overall record and all you can do is find five series? lol

can he be linked to the losses? or is it like in the houston series you tried to blame on him last night where he put up season high type numbers and the team still lost despite his effort?

[97 bulls]

i did some checking and kareem had some very good teams in LA. not to mention in the season he joined the lakers, he improved them by 10 games. and they still were under 500. you kareem supporters are a joke.

[gts]

i did some checking and kareem had some very good teams in LA. not to mention in the season he joined the lakers, he improved them by 10 games. and they still were under 500. you kareem supporters are a joke.yeah because having a 34 year old gail goodrich as the second best player on the team is a formula for success...lol
team was so injured riddled they had 18 different players on the roster that season

other than goodrich the remaining 16 guys on the roster combined for 1 all star game appearance total in their combined 78 years in the NBA...lol

think about that, 16 guys played a total of 78 seasons in the league and all they could muster together is sending one guy to the all star game once. haha

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

i did some checking and kareem had some very good teams in LA. not to mention in the season he joined the lakers, he improved them by 10 games. and they still were under 500. you kareem supporters are a joke.

you must be very very young or mentally handicapped.

[Duncan21formvp]

ooooo holy smoke a smokin gun! lol shhh let the grownups talk here...lol

he played in 49 playoff series and the teams he played on racked up a 37-12 overall record and all you can do is find five series? lol

can he be linked to the losses? or is it like in the houston series you tried to blame on him last night where he put up season high type numbers and the team still lost despite his effort?

Well Jordan never lost any series with homecourt advantage. Kareem lost 5 series with homecourt advantage which means he was the favorite.

[Fatal9]

Uhh, no. Kareem is one of the 4-5 most statistically dominant players ever, but he wasn't more statistically dominant than Jordan.
31/16/4/4 on 54% over the first decade of his career in the playoffs, while drawing more attention than Jordan in pivotal games imo. Don't feel like calculating his regular season averages but I'd ballpark them around 31/16/5/4 in his prime years. Jordan had some incredible seasons but sorry, he isn't matching this.

At his peak he was at 35/17/5/5 on 57% (oh my god...) and 35/18/4/4 in playoffs. The pace was only about 10-15% faster than first three peat Bulls, and the ppg, apg, and FG% don't really correlate much with pace anyways (like you've mentioned before). In the season I highlighted, there were on average 51 RBG for an entire team, in late 80s/early 90s there were about 44-45 RBG for a team. So really only about a 10% difference, and if you want to make a linear adjustment, Kareem's 15-17 rpg season become 14-16 rpg seasons. Not much of a difference at all.

So yea, sorry dude, but Kareem sh*ts on Jordan statistically. Then there is the fact that a dominant big man is much more valuable than a SG too (you're telling me you want to start a team with Jordan over Kareem?!). After that you look at Kareem's teams absolutely collapsing without him. Then you look at the awards, rings, finals appearance, sheer dominance, clutch play etc, he rivals Jordan in all of them except Finals MVPs (which is a joke of an award anyways, LOL at him not getting it in '80). So, Kareem wins. Only thing making it debatable was really one game in Kareem's career, the game 7 in '74 NBA finals when the rest of his team choked while he was targeted like no star player ever has been in the finals.


i did some checking and kareem had some very good teams in LA. not to mention in the season he joined the lakers, he improved them by 10 games. and they still were under 500. you kareem supporters are a joke.
:roll:

Bucks headed for 15-20 wins without him. 55 wins with him. In his rookie year with virtually the same team, he improved their record by 30 games! Lakers in '78 when he broke his hand were headed for the worst record in the conference, but when he came back they made the playoffs (though they were lower seed than they would have been otherwise).

[97 bulls]

31/16/4/4 on 54% over the first decade of his career in the playoffs, while drawing more attention than Jordan in pivotal games imo. Don't feel like calculating his regular season averages but I'd ballpark them around 31/16/5/4 in his prime years. Jordan had some incredible seasons but sorry, he isn't matching this.

At his peak he was at 35/17/5/5 on 57% (oh my god...) and 35/18/4/4 in playoffs. The pace was only about 10-15% faster than first three peat Bulls, and the ppg, apg, and FG% don't really correlate much with pace anyways (like you've mentioned before). In the season I highlighted, there were on average 51 RBG for an entire team, in late 80s/early 90s there were about 44-45 RBG for a team. So really only about a 10% difference, and if you want to make a linear adjustment, Kareem's 15-17 rpg season become 14-16 rpg seasons. Not much of a difference at all.

So yea, sorry dude, but Kareem sh*ts on Jordan statistically. Then there is the fact that a dominant big man is much more valuable than a SG too (you're telling me you want to start a team with Jordan over Kareem?!). After that you look at Kareem's teams absolutely collapsing without him. Then you look at the awards, rings, finals appearance, sheer dominance, clutch play etc, he rivals Jordan in all of them except Finals MVPs (which is a joke of an award anyways, LOL at him not getting it in '80). So, Kareem wins. Only thing making it debatable was really one game in Kareem's career, the game 7 in '74 NBA finals when the rest of his team choked while he was targeted like no star player ever has been in the finals.


:roll:

Bucks headed for 15-20 wins without him. 55 wins with him. In his rookie year with virtually the same team, he improved their record by 30 games! Lakers in '78 when he broke his hand were headed for the worst record in the conference, but when he came back they made the playoffs (though they were lower seed than they would have been otherwise).
what are you talking about? the bucks won 27 games with an injury filled kareem-less team. add kareem and health its a 30 game turnaround. the bucks played i believe 17 guys that season

[97 bulls]

you must be very very young or mentally handicapped.
what? you insult me for telling the truth? wow

[97 bulls]

yeah because having a 34 year old gail goodrich as the second best player on the team is a formula for success...lol
team was so injured riddled they had 18 different players on the roster that season

other than goodrich the remaining 16 guys on the roster combined for 1 all star game appearance total in their combined 78 years in the NBA...lol

think about that, 16 guys played a total of 78 seasons in the league and all they could muster together is sending one guy to the all star game once. haha
why are you guys lying? kareem had goodrich in his prime. he played i believe 5 years with kareem from 28-32. and kareem had some good teams in LA.

[Shepseskaf]

Yeah, Kareems entire career has been dominance. Jordan wasn't that special before the NBA. He made that game winning shot at college but he wasn't the teams mvp, and once James Worthy left his team failed to win the championship again. If I remember correctly he was cut from his high school team and his coach didn't think he'd be a great player. If you're looking at entire basketball career, Kareem is the GOAT. Won at every level there was to win, won NBA championships with two different teams.
Great argument.

I've always said that MJ and Kareem were 1a and 1b in terms of GOAT consideration.

[Fatal9]

why are you guys lying? kareem had goodrich in his prime. he played i believe 5 years with kareem from 28-32. and kareem had some good teams in LA.
Why are we lying? Why are YOU lying?

Goodrich played one year with Kareem as a 32 year old. LOL.

[97 bulls]

Why are we lying? Why are YOU lying?

Goodrich played one year with Kareem as a 32 year old. LOL.
i wasnt lying i said "i believe". wasnt totally sure. but he wasnt 34. and why dont you address kareem only addin 10 games to the lakers and they still be under 500. or the fact that the year before kareem came to the bucks they had alot of injuries and still won 27 games. not 15 like you stated.

you see i admit when i make a mistake. can you?

[poido123]

why are we bringing this thread up from the dead again??? kareem played more seasons than Jordan, so its hard to compare the two, plus they played two totally different positions...I think the argument stops at Jordan would surpass ALL relevant achievements of Kareem, if he had played the same amount of seasons, especially Jordan's prime when he retired temporarily to play baseball...

[97 bulls]

why are we bringing this thread up from the dead again??? kareem played more seasons than Jordan, so its hard to compare the two, plus they played two totally different positions...I think the argument stops at Jordan would surpass ALL relevant achievements of Kareem, if he had played the same amount of seasons, especially Jordan's prime when he retired temporarily to play baseball...
id like to end this thread with this statement ^^^^^^^^^^^

[OldSchoolBBall]

31/16/4/4 on 54% over the first decade of his career in the playoffs, while drawing more attention than Jordan in pivotal games imo. Don't feel like calculating his regular season averages but I'd ballpark them around 31/16/5/4 in his prime years. Jordan had some incredible seasons but sorry, he isn't matching this.


Now, when it's convenient, you go by raw numbers. How surprising. :oldlol:


So yea, sorry dude, but Kareem sh*ts on Jordan statistically.

:oldlol:

[gts]

why are you guys lying? kareem had goodrich in his prime. he played i believe 5 years with kareem from 28-32. and kareem had some good teams in LA.
lol learn your history before you talk, you're making a complete idiot of yourself in this thread. well not a complete idiot there's room for improvement but you're getting close. Congrats!

we were discussing one season, but you missed the boat on that and decided to include sevral that never happened and called me a liar? haha that's a good one, i'll try and remember that, next time i'm wrong i'll just call folks liars.

kareem joined the lakers in the 75-76 season godrich was 33, (i was one year off)
goodrich went to the new orleans jazz the following season so he had goodrich one season and he was on the down side of his prime.
i will say goodrich had a good season overall, but it was not enough combined with kareem to do the lakers alot of good when you look at the rest of the roster, which was the main point in the post i made. but in your haste to show your myopic view of the NBA and it's history you missed that point entirely and made an ass of yourself.

repped

[97 bulls]

lol learn your history before you talk, you're making a complete idiot of yourself in this thread. well not a complete idiot there's room for improvement but you're getting close. Congrats!

we were discussing one season, but you missed the boat on that and decided to include sevral that never happened and called me a liar? haha that's a good one, i'll try and remember that, next time i'm wrong i'll just call folks liars.

kareem joined the lakers in the 75-76 season godrich was 33, (i was one year off)
goodrich went to the new orleans jazz the following season so he had goodrich one season and he was on the down side of his prime.
i will say goodrich had a good season overall, but it was not enough combined with kareem to do the lakers alot of good when you look at the rest of the roster, which was the main point in the post i made. but in your haste to show your myopic view of the NBA and it's history you missed that point entirely and made an ass of yourself.

repped
look bro i was wrong and so were you. i already clarified my mistake. and even in this post your still wrong goodrich was 32.

[97 bulls]

Now, when it's convenient, you go by raw numbers. How surprising. :oldlol:



:oldlol:
i have a feeling he lost alot of money betting against jordan

[Gifted Mind]

Are really arguing Kareem vs. Jordan? The 2 greatest players of All-Time? This always becomes a very interesting discussion. They both have so many good arguments.

[Simple Jack]

I see you're talking about Wilt, but to say there shouldn't be any debate is pretty stupid.

Kareem
6 NBA rings
6 MVP rings
3 NCAA titles
3 MOP


There shouldn't be any debate?

"When I get busy, who is he, my formula rhymes"


:hammertime:

Please don't tell me Kareems 6 rings are the same as Jordans.

[KAJ=GOAT]

why are we bringing this thread up from the dead again??? kareem played more seasons than Jordan, so its hard to compare the two, plus they played two totally different positions...I think the argument stops at Jordan would surpass ALL relevant achievements of Kareem, if he had played the same amount of seasons, especially Jordan's prime when he retired temporarily to play baseball...


Jordan was a 3 time hs champion?

a 3 time NCAA champion?

3 time Most Outstanding Player of the NCAA tournament?

Surely you jest.


Doesn't matter who played the most seasons. If anything, thats a testament to the dedication to his craft. Do people downplay the significance of Jerry Rice for playing almost 20 years? Many NFL fans have no problem calling him the best player, so why should one hold longevity against Kareem?

Oh, because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Woulda, coulda, and shoulda doesn't mean a thing in the real world. So you can take all that speculation to the garbage and come back with something new.


Again,

3 time champion at Power Memorial in NYC.
3 time NCAA champion at UCLA
6 time NBA champion.


Dominant at every level of the game.


"Did I see Santa? No its the Green Lantern"

:hammertime:

[poido123]

Are really arguing Kareem vs. Jordan? The 2 greatest players of All-Time? This always becomes a very interesting discussion. They both have so many good arguments.

It's inevitable, most discussions that are brought up will involve Bird, Kareem, Chamberlain, Magic and MJ as the GOAT...I was just clearing anything up that people didn't understand if you wanted to compare the Kareem to Jordan argument...

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

NEVERRRR no case. MJ will always be GOAT.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Please don't tell me Kareems 6 rings are the same as Jordans.




Actually, seeing as how he faced off against greater teams than the Bulls did, how are they not?

Oh I get it, because he wasn't the media darling.


Theres a reason why those Lakers never won again once he left.

The reason being,


Kareem retired.

"as a woman in a feline costume, strokes a siamese cat"

:hammertime:

[poido123]

Jordan was a 3 time hs champion?

a 3 time NCAA champion?

3 time Most Outstanding Player of the NCAA tournament?

Surely you jest.


Doesn't matter who played the most seasons. If anything, thats a testament to the dedication to his craft. Do people downplay the significance of Jerry Rice for playing almost 20 years? Many NFL fans have no problem calling him the best player, so why should one hold longevity against Kareem?

Oh, because it doesn't fit your agenda.

Woulda, coulda, and shoulda doesn't mean a thing in the real world. So you can take all that speculation to the garbage and come back with something new.


Again,

3 time champion at Power Memorial in NYC.
3 time NCAA champion at UCLA
6 time NBA champion.


Dominant at every level of the game.


"Did I see Santa? No its the Green Lantern"

:hammertime:

Judging by your avatar, its no wonder you won't put this argument down :hammerhead:

I'm not judging Kareem, and inflating Jordan by this judgement at all, if I was to ask a non-bias opinion of anyone who would judge based on what they have seen from these two players in their careers, the consensus would say Jordan is the GOAT 9 times out of ten...
Sometimes you have to project certain situations to make a fair argument based upon a level playing field ie. taking into account, time in years a player had to acheive his personal achievements...The coulda shoulda woulda does not apply to this situation, because its not based on making an excuse for a mishap, but putting the two players on a level playing field, that's all...

[97 bulls]

It's inevitable, most discussions that are brought up will involve Bird, Kareem, Chamberlain, Magic and MJ as the GOAT...I was just clearing anything up that people didn't understand if you wanted to compare the Kareem to Jordan argument...
let me clear this up and this is really the most telling part of this whole debate. its always always, jordan vs magic, or jordan vs bird, or jordan vs kareem, or jordan vs kobe, or jordan vs wilt, or jordan vs russel, in the debate for goat. it never magic v russel or wilt v bird or well you get the picture. the others are never compared to each other. its always them to jordan. that alone is an indication that even fans of all these players acknowledge that michael jordan is the benchmark for which the other greats are judged. and that more than anything else be it stats, wins, mvps, chmpionships, records or whatever you want to use as your point of reference is why jordan is the goat.

[poido123]

let me clear this up and this is really the most telling part of this whole debate. its always always, jordan vs magic, or jordan vs bird, or jordan vs kareem, or jordan vs kobe, or jordan vs wilt, or jordan vs russel, in the debate for goat. it never magic v russel or wilt v bird or well you get the picture. the others are never compared to each other. its always them to jordan. that alone is an indication that even fans of all these players acknowledge that michael jordan is the benchmark for which the other greats are judged. and that more than anything else be it stats, wins, mvps, chmpionships, records or whatever you want to use as your point of reference is why jordan is the goat.

I hear ya, sometimes I just feel like doing this... :banghead:

It's called Laker brainwash...

[KAJ=GOAT]

Judging by your avatar, its no wonder you won't put this argument down :hammerhead:

I'm not judging Kareem, and inflating Jordan by this judgement at all, if I was to ask a non-bias opinion of anyone who would judge based on what they have seen from these two players in their careers, the consensus would say Jordan is the GOAT 9 times out of ten...Sometimes you have to project certain situations to make a fair argument based upon a level playing field ie. taking into account, time in years a player had to acheive his personal achievements...The coulda shoulda woulda does not apply to this situation, because its not based on making an excuse for a mishap, but putting the two players on a level playing field, that's all...


Got any proof of that, or is this just more speculation?

I'd prefer to deal with the facts and they are this.

From every level he played at, Kareem was dominant. Not just a winner, but dominant. The stats are all over this thread if you'd like to go over them.

Greatest of all time.

all time, not just part time, but

all time.

Jordan all time, just doesn't match up. He had one of the greatest NBA careers, but we're talking all time. Any non biased fan can see that.

"give it up, give it up, give it to me"
:hammertime:

[poido123]

Got any proof of that, or is this just more speculation?

I'd prefer to deal with the facts and they are this.

From every level he played at, Kareem was dominant. Not just a winner, but dominant. The stats are all over this thread if you'd like to go over them.

Greatest of all time.

all time, not just part time, but

all time.

Jordan all time, just doesn't match up. He had one of the greatest NBA careers, but we're talking all time. Any non biased fan can see that.

"give it up, give it up, give it to me"
:hammertime:

Um, pinpointing my 9 out of ten thing is clutching at straws...If you asked anyone outside of Laker and Bull fans for this consensus, I assure you it will favour Jordan...
i don't want you to force me to make Kareem look bad, because I really like him as a player, he was a very good player and definately top 3 of all time...I hope you understood my timeline judgement, because that is the only way you could compare these two to the fairest playing field, other than that, I will just have to SPECULATE that Jordan is GOAT...I feel pretty confident that I'm right...

[KAJ=GOAT]

Um, pinpointing my 9 out of ten thing is clutching at straws...If you asked anyone outside of Laker and Bull fans for this consensus, I assure you it will favour Jordan...
i don't want you to force me to make Kareem look bad, because I really like him as a player, he was a very good player and definately top 3 of all time...I hope you understood my timeline judgement, because that is the only way you could compare these two to the fairest playing field, other than that, I will just have to SPECULATE that Jordan is GOAT...I feel pretty confident that I'm right...


How can you assure me of anything when you have no clear evidence of anything?

What people are you going to ask? Just todays basketball fan, or are you going to include the older basketball fans of the bygone era as well?

Are you going to completely ignore the incredibly masssive media push that was behind Jordan for virtually his entire career while Kareem played in the age of 3 major tv stations and the championship games were on tape delay?

Try keeping things in perspective.

3 championships in NYC
3 NCAA championships
6 NBA championships.

Please do tell me how Jordan comes close to that.

"every night is automatic, burn rubber"

:hammertime:

[97 bulls]

How can you assure me of anything when you have no clear evidence of anything?

What people are you going to ask? Just todays basketball fan, or are you going to include the older basketball fans of the bygone era as well?

Are you going to completely ignore the incredibly masssive media push that was behind Jordan for virtually his entire career while Kareem played in the age of 3 major tv stations and the championship games were on tape delay?

Try keeping things in perspective.

3 championships in NYC
3 NCAA championships
6 NBA championships.

Please do tell me how Jordan comes close to that.

"every night is automatic, burn rubber"

:hammertime:
who had more let downs?

[KAJ=GOAT]

who had more let downs?


Losses will happen when you play half of your career in the championship game.

Think about that for just a quick second.

He played in the NBA for 20 years and was in the finals for 10. Played in all the chamionship games through high school and college. 27 years of playing ball, and 16 of them were for a championship.

Now, lets compare that to Jordan, who was in the league for 15 years, while making the finals 6 times.


I'll take 50% over 40% when it comes to trying to win a championship.


But yea, your question was a horrible attempt to try and downgrade an incredibly great career.

"the ladies love me cause I'm a million dollar hitter".


:hammertime:

[poido123]

How can you assure me of anything when you have no clear evidence of anything?

What people are you going to ask? Just todays basketball fan, or are you going to include the older basketball fans of the bygone era as well?

Are you going to completely ignore the incredibly masssive media push that was behind Jordan for virtually his entire career while Kareem played in the age of 3 major tv stations and the championship games were on tape delay?

Try keeping things in perspective.

3 championships in NYC
3 NCAA championships
6 NBA championships.



Please do tell me how Jordan comes close to that.

"every night is automatic, burn rubber"

:hammertime:

In all seriousness, you have to base an argument on NBA achievements, college is the breeding ground of talent for the NBA, you cant use college to compare a player's career :lol ...

I admire your loyalty to Kareem, but man, you have to look at reality, Jordan was better and is GOAT...End thread...

[KAJ=GOAT]

In all seriousness, you have to base an argument on NBA achievements, college is the breeding ground of talent for the NBA, you cant use college to compare a player's career :lol ...

I admire your loyalty to Kareem, but man, you have to look at reality, Jordan was better and is GOAT...End thread...
Greatest of all time.

Think about that.

all time.

Not greatest of the NBA, but

greatest of all time.

Which is why the official basketball HOF chooses to list the accomplishments of college as well.

For example,



The world may never again see an athlete dominate basketball for as long and as thoroughly as Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. From the time he stepped on the court as Lewis Alcindor at Power Memorial High School in his native New York City, to the years he owned college basketball at UCLA to the time he retired as the NBA's all-time leader in nine statistical categories including the most points in NBA history, the 7-foot-2 superstar established himself as one of basketball's most talented and recognizable figures. Abdul-Jabbar's trademark skyhook was so precise and unstoppable it left defenders helpless. While one of Abdul-Jabbar's signature maneuvers, it is now widely considered basketball's most classic and lethal offensive move. Abdul-Jabbar brought finesse and agility to the center position, two traits he substituted for brute force and strength. He was the kind of player who graces a sport once in a lifetime.



•Three NCAA Championships with UCLA, 1967-69
•National College Player of the Year, 1967, 1969
•NBA championship with Milwaukee Bucks, 1971
•NBA championship with Los Angeles Lakers, 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988

So yea, lets look at reality.

"Goddamn, I'm glad yall set it off"


:hammertime:

[Cyclone112]

In all seriousness, you have to base an argument on NBA achievements, college is the breeding ground of talent for the NBA, you cant use college to compare a player's career :lol ...

I admire your loyalty to Kareem, but man, you have to look at reality, Jordan was better and is GOAT...End thread...

I doubt he is even a true KAJ fan. He's probably someone like Fatal that just wants a way to bring MJ down so he starts a new **** account and only talks about how great KAJ is and how MJ is overrated garbage when in actuality he probably never watched a single KAJ game live or even prime MJ for that matter.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I doubt he is even a true KAJ fan. He's probably someone like Fatal that just wants a way to bring MJ down so he starts a new **** account and only talks about how great KAJ is and how MJ is overrated garbage when in actuality he probably never watched a single KAJ game live or even prime MJ for that matter.



Look kid, I've watched Kareem in championship parades since 85 when I first started paying attention to basketball. I seen Jordan in his prime. I've never had an account here. If you'd like, you can ask the admins to check my ip and cross reference it with whoever you're claiming I am.

You can check my posts and see I've commented not only in this thread, but others as well.

Another thing, I've never even said Jordan was overrated.

But since you're assuming things now, should I start assuming things about you?

Probably not since that would be quite childish. I've said numerous times already in this thread Jordan is a great player. However, in my opinion, which is what we are all stating, is that when you talk about "greatest of all times", it encompasses an entire body of work, not just one workstation. I'm sorry you can't accept that people view the world different from you. What I've stated in this thread isn't made up nonsense, but cold, hard, documented facts.

Now, you can either deal with the reality of those facts, or you can get all pissy like a little girl and start making up more school yard rumors like you're doing now.




"the choice is yours, you can get with this, or you can get with that"



:hammertime:

[poido123]

Look kid, I've watched Kareem in championship parades since 85 when I first started paying attention to basketball. I seen Jordan in his prime. I've never had an account here. If you'd like, you can ask the admins to check my ip and cross reference it with whoever you're claiming I am.

You can check my posts and see I've commented not only in this thread, but others as well.

Another thing, I've never even said Jordan was overrated.

But since you're assuming things now, should I start assuming things about you?

Probably not since that would be quite childish. I've said numerous times already in this thread Jordan is a great player. However, in my opinion, which is what we are all stating, is that when you talk about "greatest of all times", it encompasses an entire body of work, not just one workstation. I'm sorry you can't accept that people view the world different from you. What I've stated in this thread isn't made up nonsense, but cold, hard, documented facts.

Now, you can either deal with the reality of those facts, or you can get all pissy like a little girl and start making up more school yard rumors like you're doing now.




"the choice is yours, you can get with this, or you can get with that"



:hammertime:

I can see your point...
The grey area in comparing the two, is time played in the NBA, and 2 different positions they played...obviously, a guard is going to be more scoring assist and steal orientated than a forward who relies on block shots points and rebounding as their skillset, so this is where I find it hard to compare the two as they combatted the NBA with different skillsets...From what Ive seen of Kareem and what ive seen from Jordan, ive just made up my mind that I regard Jordan as the GOAT, sometimes stats and comparisons cant evaluate that...There are so many intangibles as well, things like work ethic, drive, athleticism, footwork, off the ball defence, one on one defence the list could go on... often a team's success is derived from the ability to gel as a team, which I think Kareem and Jordan had no problems with, how many good role players they had, offensive/defensive firepower, the better your supporting cast and gelling as a team, the more success your team is going to have...Your obviously a learned observer of the game, so I won't endeavour to annoy you with Jordan hype, which Im sure you've heard all before...

[Fatal9]

Now, when it's convenient, you go by raw numbers. How surprising. :oldlol:
Only time I don't go by raw numbers is when comparing stats from the early 60s (particularly '62), where the difference in rebounding was about 50%, and overall possessions about 30%. Kareem's teams however only have a difference of 10-15% (sometimes even less). You can find that type of variance in the same year between the fastest and slowest team. So using raw numbers is pretty fair in this case, with about a 10% reduction across the board (and STILL he sh*ts on Jordan!).

:oldlol: at you nitpicking one or two sentences.

[kshutts1]

I'm so sick of these arguments, and I'm so sick of Jordan being the "undisputed" GOAT because he was 1) a great, great player and 2) Stern's pet when it came to globalizing the game

I know it will never happen, but seriously.. let's just "tier" the best players...

[97 bulls]

I doubt he is even a true KAJ fan. He's probably someone like Fatal that just wants a way to bring MJ down so he starts a new **** account and only talks about how great KAJ is and how MJ is overrated garbage when in actuality he probably never watched a single KAJ game live or even prime MJ for that matter.
no it not that. it just that he has a low standards for what great is. i mean he actually comparing what players do as a child and then as an amateur. while most people compare what players do as professionals, he want to introduce what players did as teenagers. how bout this kareem is the best amateur ever and best teenager to play basketball. while jordan is the most dominate pro ever. along with his dominance in the olympics.

[97 bulls]

not to mention he kaj clealy doesnt care about the fact that kareem was not the best player for his team in half of those championships he won. its a well known fact that magic was the best player on those 80s laker teams. kareem dominated a weak era and that dominance was strictly statitical. but like i said in an earlier post his standards are very low.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Only time I don't go by raw numbers is when comparing stats from the early 60s (particularly '62), where the difference in rebounding was about 50%, and overall possessions about 30%. Kareem's teams however only have a difference of 10-15% (sometimes even less). You can find that type of variance in the same year between the fastest and slowest team. So using raw numbers is pretty fair in this case, with about a 10% reduction across the board (and STILL he sh*ts on Jordan!).

:oldlol: at you nitpicking one or two sentences.

Explain to me how 35/14/4 "shits on" 35/7/8 or 37/7/7.

I also like how you use Kareem's two BEST playoff runs statistically (35.2 pts/16.8 reb/4.1 ast and 34.6 pts/17.7 reb/4.1 ast) as if they were the usual case. No. Kareem was generally a high-20's/low-30's scorer in the playoffs, and he had two outlier years at ~35 ppg. Conveniently you use those years as the rule rather than the exception.

Kareem's playoff PER is lower than Jordan's in general. He had one postseason of 32.4 PER that's slightly higher than Jordan's best playoff PER of 32.0, but then Jordan has another 3 postseasons of higher PER than Kareem's second best postseason. Admittedly, Kareem's second best postseason, which was his rookie campaign, did not account for blocks, so his PER likely would have been in the 30-31 range rather than 29.4; still, that makes 2 Kareem postseasons of 30+ PER vs. Jordan's 4 (and another at 29.9; Kareem has no others above 29 even). Jordan's playoff PER through their first 12 postseasons (Jordan's entire career w/Chicago) is significantly higher than Kareem's (28.6 vs. 25.4).

So yeah, I don't think "shits on" is the right phrasing. Kareem has an argument, but you're clearly trolling with the language you're employing.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Explain to me how 35/14/4 "shits on" 35/7/8 or 37/7/7.

I also like how you use Kareem's two BEST playoff runs statistically (35.2 pts/16.8 reb/4.1 ast and 34.6 pts/17.7 reb/4.1 ast) as if they were the usual case. No. Kareem was generally a high-20's/low-30's scorer in the playoffs, and he had two outlier years at ~35 ppg. Conveniently you use those years as the rule rather than the exception.

Kareem's playoff PER is lower than Jordan's in general. He had one postseason of 32.4 PER that's slightly higher than Jordan's best playoff PER of 32.0, but then Jordan has another 3 postseasons of higher PER than Kareem's second best postseason. Admittedly, Kareem's second best postseason, which was his rookie campaign, did not account for blocks, so his PER likely would have been in the 30-31 range rather than 29.4; still, that makes 2 Kareem postseasons of 30+ PER vs. Jordan's 4 (and another at 29.9; Kareem has no others above 29 even). Jordan's playoff PER through their first 12 postseasons (Jordan's entire career w/Chicago) is significantly higher than Kareem's (28.6 vs. 25.4).

So yeah, I don't think "shits on" is the right phrasing. Kareem has an argument, but you're clearly trolling with the language you're employing.

Bump. Still would love to know how 35/14/4 "sh&ts on" 37/7/7 or 35/7/8.

[Fatal9]

Bump. Still would love to know how 35/14/4 "sh&ts on" 37/7/7 or 35/7/8.
:oldlol: at using playoff statistics (not large enough sample size, we are talking 10-15 games here). Those are comparable, of course. I was clearly referring to the regular season stats, where Kareem settles in to take a nice little dump on top of Jordan :oldlol:

35/17/5/5
32/16/4/4
30/16/5/4
28/17/5/4

All of them around 55% shooting too (some 57+%). The first three statlines being from seasons his team won 55-65 wins (one year winning a ring). Didn't need to clear out his own teammates for rebounds or yell at them to shoot to collect assists either. Pace is about a 10% difference, and only really affects rebounding numbers. I don't see how you have any sort of a statistical case here.

[WADE MONEY]

:roll: The funny thing is I have absolutely no problem with anyone making a case for Kareem as the possible GOAT, a very intelligent case could be made for that (and maybe 1 or 2 outside of MJ). But your little underhanded quip at the end is just your masochism shining through, you want guys like Bruce or Oldschool to come in here and lay the hammer on your forehead. You like that sh*t don't you? Will you be wearing a ball gag and leather chaps when Blitz has a copy and paste orgasm in this thread? You kinky little sl*t, you :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Simple Jack]

KAJ, I'd really like a play-by-play on your thought process in deciding that in every post, not only were you going to change the color, but also include MC Hammer dancing, a terrible rap line, and arguably the most subjective and retarded opinions on this website. I'm dying to know, my man.

[Fatal9]

paging oldschoolball, paging oldschoolball :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

:oldlol: at using playoff statistics (not large enough sample size, we are talking 10-15 games here). Those are comparable, of course. I was clearly referring to the regular season stats, where Kareem settles in to take a nice little dump on top of Jordan :oldlol:

35/17/5/5
32/16/4/4
30/16/5/4
28/17/5/4

All of them around 55% shooting too (some 57+%). The first three statlines being from seasons his team won 55-65 wins (one year winning a ring). Didn't need to clear out his own teammates for rebounds or yell at them to shoot to collect assists either. Pace is about a 10% difference, and only really affects rebounding numbers. I don't see how you have any sort of a statistical case here.

Kareem lost with HCA 5x and each time he was on the superior team.

[gts]

Kareem lost with HCA 5x and each time he was on the superior team.

KAJ played in 49 Playoff series, he has a 37-12 record or in his 233 playoff games 155-78

keep reaching...

[poido123]

KAJ played in 49 Playoff series, he has a 37-12 record or in his 233 playoff games 155-78

keep reaching...

GTS, have you read this entire thread? What do you think about a comparison between Jordan and Kareem? Do you think its fair to compare two players that play two different positions, and two vastly different timelines? And how can you bring college success into the debate when college is a leadup for young ballers to become NBA players? So when you can't compare two players on a fair playing field, then you have to speculate on what you've seen as to who the better player was, and therefore I'll speculate that Jordan was better, it become a "my player is better than yours" argument...:confusedshrug:

[gts]

GTS, have you read this entire thread? What do you think about a comparison between Jordan and Kareem? Do you think its fair to compare two players that play two different positions, and two vastly different timelines? And how can you bring college success into the debate when college is a leadup for young ballers to become NBA players? So when you can't compare two players on a fair playing field, then you have to speculate on what you've seen as to who the better player was, and therefore I'll speculate that Jordan was better, it become a "my player is better than yours" argument...:confusedshrug:good questions

yeah i have read most of it, i skip some posters...lol

yes it is a fair debate, because if you take any of the games great players, be it jordan kareem magic bird russell kobe lebron etc etc they are all transcedent players, besides physical attributes and skill they were all dedicated to their craft, worked hard at it and they are all smart saavy players. they would not be limited by rules of any form. all the handchecking vs. zone, rules changes, nutrition, methods of working out and other discussions are just fluff talk.. any of these guys would get the max out of what they had or have to work with witnin the framwork of the era. lebron would dominate the 60's 70's 80's 90's just like he does now, kareems skyhook would be just as unstoppable now or in the 50's it makes zero difference, all these guys are giants among men when it comes to the sport.

and yes you can and should use all of a players history when discussing who is the greatest basketball player of all time, high school, ABA, college, euro play are all the foundations of which their careers in the nba are based on, it's where they honed their craft, it's where they learned to be great.

[poido123]

good questions

yeah i have read most of it, i skip some posters...lol

yes it is a fair debate, because if you take any of the games great players, be it jordan kareem magic bird russell kobe lebron etc etc they are all transcedent players, besides physical attributes and skill they were all dedicated to their craft, worked hard at it and they are all smart saavy players. they would not be limited by rules of any form. all the handchecking vs. zone, rules changes, nutrition, methods of working out and other discussions are just fluff talk.. any of these guys would get the max out of what they had or have to work with witnin the framwork of the era. lebron would dominate the 60's 70's 80's 90's just like he does now, kareems skyhook would be just as unstoppable now or in the 50's it makes zero difference, all these guys are giants among men when it comes to the sport.

and yes you can and should use all of a players history when discussing who is the greatest basketball player of all time, high school, ABA, college, euro play are all the foundations of which their careers in the nba are based on, it's where they honed their craft, it's where they learned to be great.

Kareem had a skyhook? :lol

No just kidding, um the only thing I disagree with you on this is the timeline...If Jordan had played 18 or 19 seasons, which is close enough to debate, then yes I would be happy to make the comparison...I totally agree that any great player would work under any given framework to become the best that they can be, like you've said...College? That's like saying a Formula 1 racing car driver's previous Go Cart record should be taken into account, when determining the greatest Formula 1 driver! :oldlol:

[97 bulls]

Kareem had a skyhook? :lol

No just kidding, um the only thing I disagree with you on this is the timeline...If Jordan had played 18 or 19 seasons, which is close enough to debate, then yes I would be happy to make the comparison...I totally agree that any great player would work under any given framework to become the best that they can be, like you've said...College? That's like saying a Formula 1 racing car driver's previous Go Cart record should be taken into account, when determining the greatest Formula 1 driver! :oldlol:
good point. pretty soon theyll be saying kareems better cuz he taller

[Duncan21formvp]

KAJ played in 49 Playoff series, he has a 37-12 record or in his 233 playoff games 155-78

keep reaching...

Doesn't matter, MJ never lost with HCA while Kareem did so and 5x.

[gts]

Kareem had a skyhook? :lol

No just kidding, um the only thing I disagree with you on this is the timeline...If Jordan had played 18 or 19 seasons, which is close enough to debate, then yes I would be happy to make the comparison...I totally agree that any great player would work under any given framework to become the best that they can be, like you've said...:you're penalyzing kareem because jordan couldn't/wouldn't play that many years without having to retire twice. that's jordan's problem not kareem's that fact is kareem played all those years straight and was usually in the top ranking of games played every season.

jordan took off time for whatever reasons and thus his legacy needs to be looked at in that way when comparing his career to others that stayed the course

[RoseCity07]

Not going to read all that but I agree. Kareem might be the greatest of all time. He at least has a case. All time leading scorer in the NBA.

I'd still take Michael Jordan over him though.

[RainierBeachPoet]

i am glad that there is some awareness of the difficulty of comparing eras and two different positions.
:cheers:

[Fatal9]

Just saw this mix this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPVqAztffyE (dunks on Wilt at 2:56)

:bowdown:...excellent song to match.

[magnax1]

I gotta argue with Kareem being the greatest in longevity, Jordan, Stockton, and Karl Malone had just as much longevity. Though I'd say Kareem is one of the GOAT, but not the GOAT.

[Rodmantheman]

why not?

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]I think the more people learn about Kareem's career, the stronger his argument for GOAT becomes. Lets get the obvious stuff out of the way first: 6 rings, 6 MVPs, 10X all NBA first (two seasons he missed were when he broke his hand in '75 and '78), 2X Finals MVP (though it really is 3 considering he was legendary in the 1980 finals - plus Finals MVP is a pretty useless award), 5X All Second, 5X all first defensive (more competition for centers here), 6X all defensive second, 19X all-star (though his last couple weren't really "all-star" type of season), most points in NBA history, easily the longest lasting elite player in history as well.

The predictable argument usually will be (especially by Jordan fans) that he won only 3 championships as the man. To that you can really say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he

[Roundball_Rock]

you're penalyzing kareem because jordan couldn't/wouldn't play that many years without having to retire twice. that's jordan's problem not kareem's that fact is kareem played all those years straight and was usually in the top ranking of games played every season.

jordan took off time for whatever reasons and thus his legacy needs to be looked at in that way when comparing his career to others that stayed the course

Yup. KAJ was an elite player for 17 seasons and an all-star for 18 and a starter for a contender for another 2. That should enhance his legacy.

[GimmeThat]

why do I care about someone who's looked up to
when someone who's looked down upon did the same thing in a shorter amount of time

[Spurs5Rings2014]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Kareem's legacy almost seems like it came down to that one game, where his teammates couldn

[Roundball_Rock]

why do I care about someone who's looked up to
when someone who's looked down upon did the same thing in a shorter amount of time

Same thing? Kareem has the greater resume, although resume does not necessarily equate to being a superior player.

[Dragic4Life]

No case at all.

Barely crack the top 5.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Lebron
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

[GimmeThat]

No case at all.

Barely crack the top 5.

MJ
Russell
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Kareem
Lebron
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

MJ couldn't stop himself from winning a championship if he tried.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yup. If we value winning Russell is GOAT. If we value peak play Wilt/Kareem are GOAT. If we value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT (6 rings + 10 finals appearances in 70s and 80s is more impressive than 6 rings in the 90s imo).

The insane thing is bleedingpurple, that you are actually selling kareem short by saying 35/14/4 blocks. You must also consider his excellent passing ability which routinely got him 4-5 assists per game. In his prime we are talking 35/17/5/4 on 55-57% (all NBA first caliber defense too). People who try to play the pace card need to realize there is only a 10-15% difference in pace at the time of Kareem's prime and the early 90s Bulls, which really isn't much (would bring down his averages to something like 34/15/4/4, which is better than anything Jordan could come up with in his prime).

Do you see the value Kareem added to those Laker and Bucks teams? When he got injured they were 3-14 in the '75 season and on pace to win 15-20 wins max. With him they won at a rate of about 55 wins! That is just mind-boggling.

Jordan has done nothing to separate himself from someone like Kareem, but he's always passed along as the unquestioned greatest. Very misleading, especially for the younger generation, as evidenced by this forum.

:applause: