Lies KB42PAH Told Us: The Myth of the 'Zone'

[DonDadda59]

So, I'm going through some of the threads here and every once in a while I run into someone spewing that a$$ clown's thoroughly debunked myths and trying to pass them off as facts. Call this a refresher course for those that need the extra tutoring.


Jordan vs Isolation Era Defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2Wqt21_Yo) Props to Jordanhair.



“Kurt’s [Rambis] been pestering me for a year or so about doing some things defensively that I was reluctant to do,” Jackson said. “I come from the old school where you play man [defense], and you have that man and that’s your primary goal.”

-Phil Jackson, Fall 2008

"Thibodeau's (Boston assistant coach/defensive schemer) defensive scheme is a bug-free marriage of hardware and software. The programming is straight out of the Van Gundy manual: Keep the ball out of the paint, shrink the floor by overloading defenders to one side and try to contest every shot. Rarely does Thibodeau tweak the game plan by calling a variety of sets from the sideline. The Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles , and when a certain approach isn't working, the staff's first adjustment is to demand greater effort."

-SI.com

Reluctantly, HOU coach Rick Adelman has had to play some zone defense in the last few games. But he makes it clear that he's not a supporter of zone:

“I never liked it. Sometimes it throws a team out of whack. I think it’s good to change up once in a while or take someone out of their comfort zone. I’ve always found, in the NBA especially, it kind of lets people off the hook as far as their responsibilities for defending. Now you’re telling them, ‘No, you’re just playing a spot.’ It lets people just stand around, instead of having responsibilities for their man and helping their teammates.”

-ESPN, 2008

The San Antonio Spurs' Game 5 victory over the New Jersey Nets in the NBA Finals is the result of a perfect marriage of technology, defense and bench play.

Spurs coach Greg Popovich has stated that he doesn't like the zone defense and that the only reason he employs it is because of his assistant coach P.J. Carlisemo. Apparently, Carlisemo's past as a former college coach makes him a proponent of the zone and he's forced the zone into the Spurs' repertoire during the Finals.

-ESPN, 2003

"It's starting to look like Saunders' team, too, judging by the faster ball and player movement in the Pistons' embryonic new offense ... and the expanded role for Darko Milicic ... and the sprinkles of zone defense seen throughout training camp so far.

They've been so open that Saunders waited only one day before running the proud Pistons through some zone concepts. He sees too much length, quickness and athleticism on Detroit's front line to resist the idea, even though he knows that the Pistons of [Larry] Brown vintage were adamant that real men don't zone."

-ESPN


So the mighty zone defense has been shunned by the best defensive coaches of this era. Their teams, like the great defensive teams of old, rely on real defense, namely manning up, doubling and trapping when necesary, and no cheap gimmick schemes of zone. So when you homers start the whole 'Jordan never faced zone' crap, just remember that the best defensive teams today don't even bother with it, they just play man w/o handchecking, no big man camping in the lane, etc. So consider that.



http://www.imageenvision.com/sm/0025-0802-2321-1557_clip_art_graphic_of_a_stubborn_brown_hound_do g_cartoon_character_with_his_arms_crossed.jpg
Still Not Convinced?



The game’s elite players did not embrace zone defenses when they were introduced to the N.B.A. in 2001. They saw them as an infringement on the purity of their professional game.

Shaquille O’Neal detested the concept. Kobe Bryant feared his drives to the basket would be hindered by clogged lanes. So did Vince Carter.

“Hated it,” Carter, of the Nets, said recently. “A lot of guys did. It just changed the style of the game, especially if you played years before that, like myself. I wasn’t too excited about it, but as the years have gone by, the old ways have passed us by. So, you adapt to what’s going on.”

But the effect of zone defenses, since they became legal in the 2001-2 season, has been noticeable only to the trained eye. The concept of guarding areas instead of players is used fleetingly. It is largely viewed as a gimmick to be avoided in a league in which nearly everyone agrees that each player should be held accountable for guarding his own man.

To the originators of the change, however, the game is more aesthetically pleasing than before it took effect, when coaches were taking advantage of complex illegal-defense rules that encouraged a stagnant game.

“The game had become heavily reliant on one-on-one and two-on-two basketball,” said Stu Jackson, the league’s executive vice president for basketball operations. “The game was not being played the way most experts felt it should be played and that a more free-flowing, up-tempo type of game should be showcased.”

Dismayed by the slowed game and sluggish scoring, the N.B.A.’s competition committee convened in Phoenix, looking to pick up the pace. Owners endorsed changes that trimmed the time allotted to move the ball to the frontcourt to 8 seconds from 10 and eliminated the illegal-defense rules.

“No one knew what illegal defense was,” said Jerry Colangelo, a former owner of the Suns who was the chairman of the committee. “It was kind of left to the eye of the beholder.”

Zone defense, widely used in high school and college basketball, was also introduced with a significant caveat. The committee instituted a three-second rule for defenders in order to prevent teams from parking taller players in the post. The goal was to free the lanes and encourage cuts and drives through the paint.

With those changes, among other factors, offenses have opened up, and scoring has climbed. Teams are averaging 99.7 points a game this season, up from 94.8 in 2000-1, the season before the new rules were introduced. Still, the zone defense has not been embraced in the N.B.A. It is mildly effective in spurts, but often dismissed.

“When you see it in the league, they do it because they can’t guard somebody,” Quentin Richardson of the Knicks said. “If they’re having a hard time stopping this person or that person or a team in general, and they can’t do anything, teams play zone.”

The laundry list of the zone’s shortcomings in the N.B.A. is relatively deep. Long-range shooters are truer in the N.B.A. than at any other level, and open shots are more easily found in the holes of zone defenses. N.B.A. players are better passers, so it is easier for them to whip the ball around the court to find the open man. Teams can grab offensive rebounds more effectively against a zone because opposing players have no set assignments on block-outs.

Then there’s the stigma.

Asked how much zone defense the Cavaliers used, Cleveland Coach Mike Brown said none.

“It almost says, Hey, we can’t guard these guys,” Brown said. “To a certain degree, psychologically, it makes you feel like you’re conceding, and it could be a downer if it doesn’t work.”

Beyond that, some say that N.B.A. coaches are hesitant to install a zone defense simply because they do not have a longstanding history with it or an encompassing knowledge of its intricacies.

“You still have a lot of coaches, general managers and assistant coaches that are old-school former players,” Lakers guard Derek Fisher said. “And the league is based on solid man-to-man principles. That’s how they were taught the game. That’s how they grew up playing the game. And it’s difficult trying to teach something that you don’t necessarily have a great feel for yourself.”

Earlier this season, the Denver Nuggets looked to add wrinkles to their defense, and briefly experimented with zone defenses.

“We practiced one for one week, and it was awful,” Nuggets Coach George Karl said.

The Nets, the Golden State Warriors and the Dallas Mavericks are among the teams incorporating zone defenses to throw offenses off their rhythm or to guard an inbounds pass.

“You spend time teaching your zone and cleaning up your zone,” Nets Coach Lawrence Frank said. “But unless you’re totally committed to zone, you’re not going to spend nearly as much time on zone as you do your man defense. There’s not enough time in the N.B.A. workweek.”

When a team switches to a zone, its opponent can become somewhat flustered. Most N.B.A. teams continue using the offense they would have used against a man-to-man defense.

The reason? If teams do not have enough time to practice a zone defense, they surely do not have time to introduce offenses to attack it.

“When teams do zone, offensively, we’re not ready for it,” Atlanta Hawks Coach Mike Woodson said. “That’s the crazy part behind it. Because you don’t see zone that much, when you do see it, you’re caught off guard.”

Karl said: “My zone offense is to put three guys on the court who can make 3s and have them make a couple.”

But for Jackson, the N.B.A. executive vice president, how much teams use the zone is irrelevant. The goal was to open the floor and encourage a more balanced game.

“Our game today is more five-man orientated,” Jackson said. “The game looks better. There’s not as much standing around.”

-'Subtly, Zone Defense Helps Open N.B.A. Game', NY Times 2/27/09

So please, stop the bullsh*t.

http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/210153_main.jpg

[Mikaiel]

It's sad how the guy mistakes help defense for zone defense. He spends a lot of time talking about basketball, but he doesn't even know the basic stuff.

[Showtime]

Uh, anybody who knows anything about the game knows this. Only agenda-driven lunatics like Alborz or ignorant "fans" keep up the myth of this "zone era" being the GOAT defensive era.

[bruceblitz]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


You guys see the way I defend Michael Jordan and Muhammad Ali, the reason for that is simple, sports fans have short memories, and yes, I admit, I spend too much time watching vintage sports, so it's fresh in my mind. I'm just a big sports fan, not a homer. You can't say the same for Alborz in wonderland. I'm just your normal every day fan, some people agree with my opinions, some disagree. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to agree. Not the least bit.

Alborz uses these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet) so he can try to create false credibility around this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda he uses this to build his theories http://research.haifa.ac.il/~benzeev/excuses.htm and this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diminish he has this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infatuation for Kobe and he's not a fan of the sport, he's not a fan of sports, he's just quite simply a Kobe stalker, people who fall for his psychotic views are: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gullible and http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive to sum Alborz up, he lacks this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/credibility . I feel bad for the ones who fall for his crap.

kb42pah's myths debunked:
-Jordan played against "shorter" players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvX5Zy5Ms9I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cV2_Cr8GNo

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Players weren't athletic in the Jordan era:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uc465y2tl4

-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Kobe faced an amazing innate zone defense in the 2008 Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDeiWYttLME

-Jordan wouldn't be able to own Pierce:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QrGYmUf_Y

Jordan wouldn't be able to own KG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXwYZDQvElc

This guy reminds us of kb42pah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

kb42pah needs this guy to help him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

the real top 10 NBA players of all time:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2747391

effects of the rules changes:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2717202

Jordan's career compared to current stars:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_current_stars.htm

Jordan's career compared to the legends:
http://michaeljordansworld.com/comparison_nba_stars.htm

kb42pah makes Mark Jackson seem like a professor.

[1~Gibson~1]

Why do yall even care about what that guy says. MJ > all whether he wants to admitt it or not.

[DonDadda59]

Why do yall even care about what that guy says. MJ > all whether he wants to admitt it or not.

Just trying to get the truth out, there's obviously some very misguided posters on this board who subscribe to his b.s.

[Disaprine]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously :lol

[DonDadda59]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously :lol

The problem is, I NEVER took him or anyone like him seriously. But many people share his misguided views, just doing a public service announcement.

[Glide2keva]

i don't know whats worse now, kb42pah or people like you taking him seriously :lol
I don't think it's the posters in this thread that take dude seriously. I think posts like these are made to stop the lies being spread by some Kobe fans who never saw the NBA in the 80's and 90's that believe posters like kb42pah.

[Flamboyant]

It's sad how the guy mistakes help defense for zone defense. He spends a lot of time talking about basketball, but he doesn't even know the basic stuff.

That's actually the truest thing here.

But the fact is allowing zone, was indeed removing illegal defenses.
When defending superstars, double teaming is a much more effective defensive move, than hand-checking.

Lots of guys bring up how scoring went up when zone was introduced. But it was the role players that made that difference, not the superstars.

In 01', 8 players averaged over 25, them being:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .420 ppg 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .402 ppg 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .572 ppg 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .464 ppg 28.5
5. Vince Carter FG% .460 ppg 27.6
6. Chris Webber FG% .481 ppg 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .457 ppg 26.8
8. Paul Pierce FG% .454 ppg 25.3

But the following season, with the rule changes, only 2 of them (AI, Pierce) increased their ppg, both of whom having lower FG%.

Here are the stats from the following season:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .398 ppg 31.4
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .397 ppg 21.4
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .579 ppg 27.2
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .469 ppg 25.2
5. Vince Carter FG% .428 ppg 24.7
6. Chris Webber FG% .495 ppg 24.5
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .451 ppg 25.6
8. Paul Pierce FG% .442 ppg 26.1

To sum it up the reflection was:

Iverson -2.2%FG, +0.3ppg
Stackhouse -0.5%FG, -8.4ppg
Shaq +0.7%FG, -1.5ppg
Kobe +0.5%FG, -3.3ppg
Vince -3.2%FG, -2.9ppg
Webber +1.8%FG, -1.5ppg
TMac -0.6%FG, -1.2ppg
Pierce -1.2%FG, +0.8ppg

And even these numbers are a little flawed, because most of these guys had better FT shooting seasons, and more 3 pointers the following year(02).

Granted great players can adjust their games to any rule changes, but thinking that hand-checking is more effective than "zone" is idiotic.
Everyone claims that now people can go to the hole much easier, while it's obvious (and inarguable), that todays players are forced to take more jumpers.




BTW, just so that people know, while I go against the OP, I certainly agree that KB42PAH, has lots of BS in his videos.

Oh, and I didn't read the whole OP, but "Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles?" "Shrinking the floor by overloading defenders to one side and trying to contest every shot" is something that became legal after the rule changes.
And the Celtics so many times run actual pure zone defense, and maybe are the only team in league history to use it effectively.

[amfirst]

Do u guys even know what you are reading? To sum it up, it basically says zone defense is made to stop individual superstars. It only makes the game more fast pace because u have to give up the ball and swing it around the weak side, typically the superstar would be on the strong side. Ball movement is better because to break zone down u have to pass the ball quick, thus, creating a face pace game and trust your team mates.

Individual game does not work as well, so basically u guys are agreeing that an individual player would have a harder time scoring. Therefore, MJ won't be as effective going in the paint. Zone is made to slow down SUPERSTARS who would normally slow down the game by going one on one. Hellooooo

Of course scoring would increase in a with more passing. Than going one on one like the older days.

[bruceblitz]

Dumars of the

[bruceblitz]

1999-00

[D-Rose]

Hey Bruce,

http://i39.tinypic.com/ftpy4y.jpg

:oldlol:

[amfirst]

All u have to do is watch Kobe in the post, hands are everywhere on him.

[bruceblitz]

http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5800021415


It seems these days the only place you can corner an NBA point guard is in a locker room. (Thanks for the time, Skip.) If you've read this blog or the Race to the MVP column since I've been writing it for the past year, you know I think this is the golden age of the point guard.

From classic pass-first guys such as Jason Kidd to you-can't-hand-check-me speedsters such as Chris Paul and Devin Harris (who is having quite the week), point guard play in the Association has never been better. And this week, I'd like to thank a couple of guys who have validated my thoughts: San Antonio's Tony Parker and Utah's Deron Williams.

NBA.com's man in the Texas triangle, Art Garcia, has written splendidly about how the Spurs have returned home after an eight-game road trip and weathered Tim Duncan's and Manu Ginobili absence thanks to Parker's brilliance.

"I prepared myself today," said Parker, referring to Duncan's late scratch the previous night.

"Speed is an important thing and he has speed," Blazers coach Nate McMillan said of Parker. "We tried every defense ... but he was like a roadrunner just blowing by us."

As we've noted before, when the NBA started re-enforcing the hand-checking rule more stringently before the 2004-05, it may have been the most significant rules decision since the three-point line was added before the 1979-80 season. Instead of opposing guards being able to sink a meat-hook into a guy's side and direct him all over the court, the keep-your-hands-to-yourself edict has allowed basketball to be played closer to the way the good Dr. James Naismith intended when he wrote up the original 13 rules in 1891.

One of the interesting things about the rule is it also allows guards to go where most guards haven't been able to go before -- close to the hoop.

Check out the photo above. Parker is excellent at breaking down a defense. Just ask the Cleveland Cavaliers, whom Parker torched en route to a Finals MVP.

While his speed can get him close to the rack, his decent outside shot can keep the defense honest. If he finds his line of sight impeded near the rim, Roger Mason or Michael Finley are patiently waiting for the kick-out pass in the short corner.

As you can see in a play like that, the marriage of the two significant rule changes (hand-checking, three-point line) work to make the game more fluid and well-spaced in the half-court.

And it's not only speedy dudes like Parker or Paul or two-time MVP Steve Nash who benefit from this rule re-enforcement. Strong point guards such as Williams, who also benefits from playing in a high-side pick-and-roll offense, who can work their way past smaller guards without being poked in the side along the way.

Williams, some of you may remember, was No. 10 in our first Race to the MVP this season, even though he hadn't played a game because of injury. Since the calendar flipped to 2009, Williams has averaged a double-double with 22.1 points and 10.8 assists per game. Yes, folks, those are MVP-type digits.

Also, if you think those rules only benefit point guards, take a check at some of the guys who play on the wing. LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade and Brandon Roy handle the ball a lot for their teams. Their size and strength would negate any attempt to hand-check them on the perimeter, they too benefit from these rules.

[bruceblitz]

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[DonDadda59]

That's actually the truest thing here.

But the fact is allowing zone, was indeed removing illegal defenses.
When defending superstars, double teaming is a much more effective defensive move, than hand-checking.

Lots of guys bring up how scoring went up when zone was introduced. But it was the role players that made that difference, not the superstars.

In 01', 8 players averaged over 25, them being:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .420 ppg 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .402 ppg 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .572 ppg 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .464 ppg 28.5
5. Vince Carter FG% .460 ppg 27.6
6. Chris Webber FG% .481 ppg 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .457 ppg 26.8
8. Paul Pierce FG% .454 ppg 25.3

But the following season, with the rule changes, only 2 of them (AI, Pierce) increased their ppg, both of whom having lower FG%.

Here are the stats from the following season:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .398 ppg 31.4
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .397 ppg 21.4
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .579 ppg 27.2
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .469 ppg 25.2
5. Vince Carter FG% .428 ppg 24.7
6. Chris Webber FG% .495 ppg 24.5
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .451 ppg 25.6
8. Paul Pierce FG% .442 ppg 26.1

To sum it up the reflection was:

Iverson -2.2%FG, +0.3ppg
Stackhouse -0.5%FG, -8.4ppg
Shaq +0.7%FG, -1.5ppg
Kobe +0.5%FG, -3.3ppg
Vince -3.2%FG, -2.9ppg
Webber +1.8%FG, -1.5ppg
TMac -0.6%FG, -1.2ppg
Pierce -1.2%FG, +0.8ppg

And even these numbers are a little flawed, because most of these guys had better FT shooting seasons, and more 3 pointers the following year(02).

Granted great players can adjust their games to any rule changes, but thinking that hand-checking is more effective than "zone" is idiotic.
Everyone claims that now people can go to the hole much easier, while it's obvious (and inarguable), that todays players are forced to take more jumpers.




BTW, just so that people know, while I go against the OP, I certainly agree that KB42PAH, has lots of BS in his videos.

Oh, and I didn't read the whole OP, but "Celtics are committed to their basic man-to-man principles?" "Shrinking the floor by overloading defenders to one side and trying to contest every shot" is something that became legal after the rule changes.
And the Celtics so many times run actual pure zone defense, and maybe are the only team in league history to use it effectively.

You probably should've, woulda saved you a lot of research and typing :oldlol:

[bruceblitz]

You probably should've, woulda saved you a lot of research and typing :oldlol:
:rockon:

[bruceblitz]

You probably should've, woulda saved you a lot of research and typing :oldlol:
Apparently he missed the fact that they didn't enforce the rules changes stringently until 2004-2005.

[bruceblitz]

League leaders in points:

2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 2386
2007-08 NBA Kobe Bryant 2323
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 2430
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 2832
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 2302 (rules changes go into full effect)
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 1987



Now let's look at PPG leaders who average 24 points per game or more:
2003-2004 ppg:
Points Per Game Leaders

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0




2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

2005-2006 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2


2006-2007 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6


2007-2008 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2



2008-2009 ppg

Points Per Game

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3









Now let's compare that to the last couple of years Jordan was a Bull:

1997-1998 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)

1996-1997 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.4
3. Glen Rice-CHH 26.8
4. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.9
5. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2


1995-1996 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0

(notice, only one perimeter player)


1994-1995 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1
(Notice the lack of perimeter players)


1993-1994 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.8
2. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.3
4. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.0
5. Karl Malone-UTA 25.2
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5

(where are the perimeter players?)


1992-1993 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2


1991-1992 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0



1990-1991 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

(notice the lack of perimeter players, imagine Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Tim Hardaway, prime Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller and players like Isiah Thomas playing under today's rules, they would all register 30+ppg seasons more than once.)

During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players....

90's defense was the best defense at containing perimeter basketball players. 90's defenses took the best aspects of 80's defenses and added to them. 00's defenses were stripped of their rights to actually physically contain the ball handler. Why do you think the 04 Pistons defense fell off so quick?

[Flamboyant]

You probably should've, woulda saved you a lot of research and typing :oldlol:

Yeah, read the whole thing in the mean time, and nope, still would've typed the same. People here believe, that rule changes of 01, got completely ignored by every single team, while no hand checking, made a +10ppg jump to every player. At the end the help defense is more effective than handchecking IMO, and even if you believe the other way around, the difference is minimal.

And unlike your article claims, most of the best teams of this decade (Spurs, Celtics, and even the Lakers of the last years) have apllied the new rules to upgrade their defenses, especially on the big games. It was also the way Cavs, and Heat battled against Detroit who was far superior to them, in 06 & 07.

[bruceblitz]

Yeah, read the whole thing in the mean time, and nope, still would've typed the same. People here believe, that rule changes of 01, got completely ignored by every single team, while no hand checking, made a +10ppg jump to every player. At the end the help defense is more effective than handchecking IMO, and even if you believe the other way around, the difference is minimal.

And unlike your article claims, most of the best teams of this decade (Spurs, Celtics, and even the Lakers of the last years) have apllied the new rules to upgrade their defenses, especially on the big games. It was also the way Cavs, and Heat battled against Detroit who was far superior to them, in 06 & 07.
Quit posting your bias opinions. Don Dadda and myself have more proof than you could ever dream of. Thanks for taking time to post though.

[bruceblitz]

The NBA went from being a big-man's game, to being a game that caters to the perimeter players.

[Flamboyant]

During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players....

See, this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IF anything, it was easier for big men to score in the Jordan era. Today the league maybe is mostly in the hands of the premiter players, but that doesn't mean they are having it easier. Lots of players averaged 30/g in hand checking era: Nique, MJ, AI, Kobe, T-Mac.

It clearly wasn't that difficult back then neither. It's just that instead of just Nique, and MJ, now we have a little more talented scorers in the wing.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, read the whole thing in the mean time, and nope, still would've typed the same. People here believe, that rule changes of 01, got completely ignored by every single team, while no hand checking, made a +10ppg jump to every player. At the end the help defense is more effective than handchecking IMO, and even if you believe the other way around, the difference is minimal.

And unlike your article claims, most of the best teams of this decade (Spurs, Celtics, and even the Lakers of the last years) have apllied the new rules to upgrade their defenses, especially on the big games. It was also the way Cavs, and Heat battled against Detroit who was far superior to them, in 06 & 07.

I didn't write the articles. But you disagree with Popovich, Jackson, Thibodeau/Rivers, Adelman, Brown, Karl, etc and so on about the preponderance of 'zone' in their team defensive schemes and the league as a whole? You're talking out of your a$$.

[Flamboyant]

Quit posting your bias opinions. Don Dadda and myself have more proof than you could ever dream of. Thanks for taking time to post though.

Refer to what you are talking about, cause I only posted numbers, and facts so far. (besides hand checking not being more effective than zone, which you don't have any facts to prove wrong, accept posting your superbiased opinion)

[bruceblitz]

See, this is exactly what I'm arguing against. IF anything, it was easier for big men to score in the Jordan era. Today the league maybe is mostly in the hands of the premiter players, but that doesn't mean they are having it easier. Lots of players averaged 30/g in hand checking era: Nique, MJ, AI, Kobe, T-Mac.

It clearly wasn't that difficult back then neither. It's just that instead of just Nique, and MJ, now we have a little more talented scorers in the wing.
Why are you wasting my time?


-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Now, watch the videos, stop typing. It wasn't easier to score for bigs in Jordan's era, they got more touches because you didn't have as many ball-hog perimeter players who think they deserve 18-20 shots per game, despite the fact that nearly all of them miss over 50% of their shots.

[bruceblitz]

Refer to what you are talking about, cause I only posted numbers, and facts so far. (besides hand checking not being more effective than zone, which you don't have any facts to prove wrong, accept posting your superbiased opinion)
You keep typing about zones, as if teams didn't run zones, aka 1-2-2 box and 1 in the Jordan era. You don't know what the hell you are talking about, it just isn't handchecking, it's the amount of touch calls, the circle area in the paint to get credit for a charge, and the loss of the ability for bigs to camp out in the paint due to a 3 second defensive rule now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA&feature=channel_page
:no: :rolleyes:


I love it when kids say that they didn't run match-up zones in Jordan's era but when you watch full game film, or remember watching games from that era, teams ran match-up zones all the time. What a joke.

[chitownsfinest]

Avg PPG the year before zone was legalized (even though teams were running it before illegally): 94.8 ppg
AVG PPG the year zone was legalized: 95.5
Wow, zone had such a big fu*king effect

[gts]

Quit posting your bias opinions. Don Dadda and myself have more proof than you could ever dream of. Thanks for taking time to post though.haha pot kettle tea time talk right here

[Flamboyant]

I didn't write the articles. But you disagree with Popovich, Jackson, Thibodeau/Rivers, Adelman, Brown, Karl, etc and so on about the preponderance of 'zone' in their team defensive schemes and the league as a whole? You're talking out of your a$$.

Yeah, I mean't your post (english, the secondary language mistakes) so ignore them sometimes.

but in your post you said (you didn't mention who the line belongs to). . .


So the mighty zone defense has been shunned by the best defensive coaches of this era.

... and no it's damn false. I've seen Doc Rivers in the timeouts talking about the zone defense they were applying, wtf are you talking about. Even the article says that Spurs apply zone. And in my first post I pointed out that people get lost, between the difference of zone, and help defense. Most of what those coaches say are stricly about the zone, while the new defensive rules offer more than that. Yes pure zone is rarely used, and most of the players run like headless chicken when they play it, but help defenses (double teaming, switching on the screens) are big difference makers. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. I watch the game on regular bases, and thats exactly what I see.







BTW copy paste orgasm started (You are the man for this quote), so I'll stop right here.

:cheers:

[bruceblitz]

Avg PPG the year before zone was legalized (even though teams were running it before illegally): 94.8 ppg
AVG PPG the year zone was legalized: 95.5
Wow, zone had such a big fu*king effect
WHY ARE YOU QUOTING A TEAM STAT? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THE NBA SET UP THEIR RULES TO ALLOW PERIMETER PLAYERS TO SCORE EASIER. SLOW DOWN, READ THE THREAD, WATCH THE VIDEOS PROVIDED, SO YOU DON'T TYPE SUCH NONSENSE!

League leaders in points:

2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 2386
2007-08 NBA Kobe Bryant 2323
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 2430
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 2832
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 2302 (rules changes go into full effect)
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 1987



Now let's look at PPG leaders who average 24 points per game or more:
2003-2004 ppg:
Points Per Game Leaders

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0




2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

2005-2006 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2


2006-2007 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6


2007-2008 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2



2008-2009 ppg

Points Per Game

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3









Now let's compare that to the last couple of years Jordan was a Bull:

1997-1998 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)

1996-1997 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.4
3. Glen Rice-CHH 26.8
4. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.9
5. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2


1995-1996 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0

(notice, only one perimeter player)


1994-1995 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1
(Notice the lack of perimeter players)


1993-1994 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.8
2. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.3
4. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.0
5. Karl Malone-UTA 25.2
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5

(where are the perimeter players?)


1992-1993 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2


1991-1992 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0



1990-1991 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

(notice the lack of perimeter players, imagine Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Tim Hardaway, prime Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller and players like Isiah Thomas playing under today's rules, they would all register 30+ppg seasons more than once.)

During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players....

90's defense was the best defense at containing perimeter basketball players. 90's defenses took the best aspects of 80's defenses and added to them. 00's defenses were stripped of their rights to actually physically contain the ball handler. Why do you think the 04 Pistons defense fell off so quick?

[bruceblitz]

Yeah, I mean't your post (english, the secondary language mistakes) so ignore them sometimes.

but in your post you said (you didn't mention who the line belongs to). . .



... and no it's damn false. I've seen Doc Rivers in the timeouts talking about the zone defense they were applying, wtf are you talking about. Even the article says that Spurs apply zone. And in my first post I pointed out that people get lost, between the difference of zone, and help defense. Most of what those coaches say are stricly about the zone, while the new defensive rules offer more than that. Yes pure zone is rarely used, and most of the players run like headless chicken when they play it, but help defenses (double teaming, switching on the screens) are big difference makers. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. I watch the game on regular bases, and thats exactly what I see.







BTW copy paste orgasm started (You are the man for this quote), so I'll stop right here.

:cheers::banghead:

[bruceblitz]

Why are you wasting my time?


-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Now, watch the videos, stop typing. It wasn't easier to score for bigs in Jordan's era, they got more touches because you didn't have as many ball-hog perimeter players who think they deserve 18-20 shots per game, despite the fact that nearly all of them miss over 50% of their shots.

You keep typing about zones, as if teams didn't run zones, aka 1-2-2 box and 1 in the Jordan era. You don't know what the hell you are talking about, it just isn't handchecking, it's the amount of touch calls, the circle area in the paint to get credit for a charge, and the loss of the ability for bigs to camp out in the paint due to a 3 second defensive rule now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA&feature=channel_page
:no: :rolleyes:


I love it when kids say that they didn't run match-up zones in Jordan's era but when you watch full game film, or remember watching games from that era, teams ran match-up zones all the time. What a joke.
:hammerhead: :banghead: :hammerhead:

[chitownsfinest]

WHY ARE YOU QUOTING A TEAM STAT? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THE NBA SET UP THEIR RULES TO ALLOW PERIMETER PLAYERS TO SCORE EASIER. SLOW DOWN, READ THE THREAD, WATCH THE VIDEOS PROVIDED, SO YOU DON'T TYPE SUCH NONSENSE![/SIZE]

League leaders in points:

2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 2386
2007-08 NBA Kobe Bryant 2323
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 2430
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 2832
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 2302 (rules changes go into full effect)
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 1987



Now let's look at PPG leaders who average 24 points per game or more:
2003-2004 ppg:
Points Per Game Leaders

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0




2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

2005-2006 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2


2006-2007 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6


2007-2008 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2



2008-2009 ppg

Points Per Game

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3









Now let's compare that to the last couple of years Jordan was a Bull:

1997-1998 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)

1996-1997 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.4
3. Glen Rice-CHH 26.8
4. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.9
5. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2


1995-1996 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0

(notice, only one perimeter player)


1994-1995 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1
(Notice the lack of perimeter players)


1993-1994 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.8
2. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.3
4. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.0
5. Karl Malone-UTA 25.2
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5

(where are the perimeter players?)


1992-1993 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2


1991-1992 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0



1990-1991 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

(notice the lack of perimeter players, imagine Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Tim Hardaway, prime Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller and players like Isiah Thomas playing under today's rules, they would all register 30+ppg seasons more than once.)

During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players....

90's defense was the best defense at containing perimeter basketball players. 90's defenses took the best aspects of 80's defenses and added to them. 00's defenses were stripped of their rights to actually physically contain the ball handler. Why do you think the 04 Pistons defense fell off so quick?
Calm the fu*k down. I was using stats to show that zone did not make it harder to score by showing the fact that ppg actually increased when zone was legalized.

[bruceblitz]

So, I'm going through some of the threads here and every once in a while I run into someone spewing that a$$ clown's thoroughly debunked myths and trying to pass them off as facts. Call this a refresher course for those that need the extra tutoring.


Jordan vs Isolation Era Defense (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2Wqt21_Yo) Props to Jordanhair.





http://www.imageenvision.com/sm/0025-0802-2321-1557_clip_art_graphic_of_a_stubborn_brown_hound_do g_cartoon_character_with_his_arms_crossed.jpg
Still Not Convinced?




So please, stop the bullsh*t.

http://gamesnet.vo.llnwd.net/o1/gamestar/objects/210153_main.jpg
We've disagreed on a few topics in the past, but Don Dadda you were 100% on the money with this thread. At first I was thinking, man there can't be anyone left who believes this garbage, sure enough, a few of them pop up in the thread. I know you just want to :banghead: when you read their mis-led mis-informed opinions because it makes me go :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[bruceblitz]

Calm the fu*k down. I was using stats to show that zone did not make it harder to score by showing the fact that ppg actually increased when zone was legalized.
A team stat is useless my friend when analyzing the level of difficulty for perimeter players. This is such a frustrating subject for me because the differences are SO OBVIOUS as a long time observer of the game.

[blacknapalm]

Yeah, I mean't your post (english, the secondary language mistakes) so ignore them sometimes.

but in your post you said (you didn't mention who the line belongs to). . .



... and no it's damn false. I've seen Doc Rivers in the timeouts talking about the zone defense they were applying, wtf are you talking about. Even the article says that Spurs apply zone. And in my first post I pointed out that people get lost, between the difference of zone, and help defense. Most of what those coaches say are stricly about the zone, while the new defensive rules offer more than that. Yes pure zone is rarely used, and most of the players run like headless chicken when they play it, but help defenses (double teaming, switching on the screens) are big difference makers. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. I watch the game on regular bases, and thats exactly what I see.







BTW copy paste orgasm started (You are the man for this quote), so I'll stop right here.

:cheers:

help defense does not equal zone, i'm not sure where people ever got this notion. watch college b-ball, that's where you see zone. no on here is denying teams applying zone, but they do apply it in spurts. what people are saying is that it's not some magical defense that materialized recently because it's so complex and unbeatable. so yes, celtics use zone a lot but for the most part they play man to man. go ahead and read that NY times article because the stuff you are posting either tells me you didn't read or you have the comprehension skills of a 2nd grader.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah, I mean't your post (english, the secondary language mistakes) so ignore them sometimes.

but in your post you said (you didn't mention who the line belongs to). . .



... and no it's damn false. I've seen Doc Rivers in the timeouts talking about the zone defense they were applying, wtf are you talking about. Even the article says that Spurs apply zone. And in my first post I pointed out that people get lost, between the difference of zone, and help defense. Most of what those coaches say are stricly about the zone, while the new defensive rules offer more than that. Yes pure zone is rarely used, and most of the players run like headless chicken when they play it, but help defenses (double teaming, switching on the screens) are big difference makers. I'm not pulling it out of my ass. I watch the game on regular bases, and thats exactly what I see.







BTW copy paste orgasm started (You are the man for this quote), so I'll stop right here.

:cheers:

It's rare for any teams besides the worst/most undermanned in the league to run 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, once in a blue moon, if ever. That's crystal clear not only from what the coaches have said, but from simple observation- just watching the games.

All of the things you listed- help defenses, double teaming, switching on screens, and my favorite 'zone' sandwiches aren't new inventions, they've been around for a few decades now. Watch the video I posted in the OP, it should clear up a lot of things for you.

[bruceblitz]

help defense does not equal zone, i'm not sure where people ever got this notion. watch college b-ball, that's where you see zone. no on here is denying teams applying zone, but they do apply it in spurts. what people are saying is that it's not some magical defense that materialized recently because it's so complex and unbeatable. so yes, celtics use zone a lot but for the most part they play man to man. go ahead and read that NY times article because the stuff you are posting either tells me you didn't read or you have the comprehension skills of a 2nd grader.
:cheers: :applause: :applause: :applause: :cheers:

[gts]

kind of interesting how major rule changes effect scoring, add the zone scoring goes up take away the zone scoring goes up

1946-47
• Zone defenses outlawed on January 11, 1947
scoring jumps from 67.8 ppg 46-47 to 72.7 1947-48 ppg to 80ppg in the 1948-49 seasons

1954-55
• The 24-second shot clock is introduced.
scoring goes from 79ppg 1953-54 to 93.1 ppg for the 1954-55 season

1966-67
The following language was added to the Zone Defense Rule: "After the offensive team has advanced the ball to its front court, a defensive player may not station himself in the key area longer than three seconds if it is apparent he is making no effort to play an opponent. The three second count starts when the offensive team is in clear control in the front court."

scoring goes from 115.5 1965-66 to 117.4 ppg 1966-67

[DonDadda59]

We've disagreed on a few topics in the past, but Don Dadda you were 100% on the money with this thread. At first I was thinking, man there can't be anyone left who believes this garbage, sure enough, a few of them pop up in the thread. I know you just want to :banghead: when you read their mis-led mis-informed opinions because it makes me go :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


I was under the impression that even the casual NBA observer could tell the difference between help D, a trap, double, etc and players zoning up, but I was dead wrong.

And that's what boards like this are made for, healthy discourse. We might not always agree, but at least we can discuss the FACTS :cheers:

[blacknapalm]

zone is great for stopping a dominant perimeter player from driving really easily as long as everyone is disciplined at it. it's not so great for taking on great teams and if an assignment is blown, it means easy points.

what people don't understand about the 3 second rule is that it took away many points within 3 feet of the basket. it forced teams to play a certain way, ie shoot more. the 3 second rule actually limits what a center can do, which is also another reason why you have to look at block statistics closely.

[DonDadda59]

zone is great for stopping a dominant perimeter player from driving really easily as long as everyone is disciplined at it.

Nice scientific test of your theory- Let's take two of the best/most dominant perimeter players of their generation and see how they fare against the same lineup- one guy facing strictly man defense, the other seeing some 'zone'.

Subjects: Kobe Bryant '04, Dwayne Wade '06
Teams: Detroit Pistons ('04, '06); starters the same both seasons.

Kobe vs The Pistons (Ran only man D under Brown)


Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004

Pistons D- 84.3 PA/G, 95.4 Defensive Rating

Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

-Ranking the Top 10 Worst Finals Ever, ESPN


Dwayne Wade vs The Pistons(Flip Saunders ran some 'zone')

Pistons D- 90.2 PA/G, 103.1 Defensive Rating

DWade ECF Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y)

26.7 PPG/5.20 RPG /5.5 APG/61.7 FG%

*25.8 PPG/4.50 RPG/4.3 APG/44.0 FG% vs Larry Brown lead team in '05 ECF.*

Verdict?

[nbastatus]

where's alpha wolf?

[amfirst]

Some of you guys can post stats all you want, but it seems like u don't know how the zone is set up.

Zone defense always has a 2nd defender constantly shadow the first defender, so there is no late rotation because the 2nd defender is already in place.

Now go back and watch the 90s and earlier videos, there's was no 2nd defender shadowing the 1st defender, only double teams, so rotations always come late, that's y it is so easy to drive in the lane.

This is why it so hard to drive because u have to juke the first guy and then juke the second guy, after all that juking, u allow time for the third defender to rotate. Go watch the videos and you'll see what I mean.

[momo]

Hey Bruce,

http://i39.tinypic.com/ftpy4y.jpg

:oldlol:

Hahaha!

[momo]

Some of you guys can post stats all you want, but it seems like u don't know how the zone is set up.

Zone defense always has a 2nd defender constantly shadow the first defender, so there is no late rotation because the 2nd defender is already in place.

Now go back and watch the 90s and earlier videos, there's was no 2nd defender shadowing the 1st defender, only double teams, so rotations always come late, that's y it is so easy to drive in the lane.

This is why it so hard to drive because u have to juke the first guy and then juke the second guy, after all that juking, u allow time for the third defender to rotate. Go watch the videos and you'll see what I mean.

What? Dozens of different zones have been concocted. Box and one, 2-3, matchup, and so on. They are all different, and do not in any way have to be what you are describing in order to be a zone.

[DonDadda59]

Some of you guys can post stats all you want, but it seems like u don't know how the zone is set up.

Zone defense always has a 2nd defender constantly shadow the first defender, so there is no late rotation because the 2nd defender is already in place.

Now go back and watch the 90s and earlier videos, there's was no 2nd defender shadowing the 1st defender, only double teams, so rotations always come late, that's y it is so easy to drive in the lane.

This is why it so hard to drive because u have to juke the first guy and then juke the second guy, after all that juking, u allow time for the third defender to rotate. Go watch the videos and you'll see what I mean.

:oldlol: You've never seen Lebron or Wade play? Watch the Dwayne Wade ECF mix I posted. Yeah, real hard to drive. :roll:

Everything you posted just exposes how very little you know. But if you want to see a full court press, 'shadowing', doubles, traps, and difficult drives to the basket, w/ handchecking, and no 3-second violation (meaning there's a 7 footer waiting in the lane) all in ONE PLAY- MJ's your man.

Shut UP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG6F8qKsoQ):applause:

Compare that to these, against one of the best defensive squads of the decade:

Dwayne Wade ECF '06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y)

Who had the tougher drives to the basket? :wtf:

[JayGuevara]

Seriously Bruce, how do you manage to post 25.6 times a day with a good 15+ being high school essay length, and the entire 25.6 being in some way shape or form related to Jordan, Kobe, or LeBron?

It must take serious dedication and commitment and a complete lack of any social life to ride that much dick. Your mother should be proud.

[Butters]

Bruce gets down with the Copy/Paste train broski!

[JustinJDW]

Today, 10:09 PM
Remove user from ignore listD-Rose
This message is hidden because D-Rose is on your ignore list.

View Post Today, 10:09 PM
Remove user from ignore listamfirst
This message is hidden because amfirst is on your ignore list.I love it when people post this. It shows that they are insecure and that they want people to know and care that he has these people are on his ignore list. Like it makes him cool or something. It is a desperate cry for attention. It's pathetic.

:oldlol:

[D-Rose]

I love it when people post this. It shows that they are insecure and that they want people to know and care that he has these people are on his ignore list. Like it makes him cool or something. It is a desperate cry for attention. It's pathetic.

:oldlol:
Agree, for once lol

I couldn't give a damn if Bruce is reading my posts or not.

[plowking]

I've had this argument too many times.

It's funny how those who agree with Bruce and Dondadda only like to look at their numbers and dismiss the numbers from the other side.

How come, after zone being introduced, there hasn't been a single wing player to score over 30ppg while shooting over 50%? They are being forced into tougher shots. Is it coincidence that not one wing player has shot over 50% while getting 30ppg+?

Take a look at the wing players that were scoring over 30ppg prior to zone. There were about 6 or 7 that scored while shooting over 50% or just under. I'd say the closest to score 30ppg while shooting near 50% after zone have been Wade and Lebron.

[plowking]

:oldlol: You've never seen Lebron or Wade play? Watch the Dwayne Wade ECF mix I posted. Yeah, real hard to drive. :roll:

Everything you posted just exposes how very little you know. But if you want to see a full court press, 'shadowing', doubles, traps, and difficult drives to the basket, w/ handchecking, and no 3-second violation (meaning there's a 7 footer waiting in the lane) all in ONE PLAY- MJ's your man.

Shut UP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxG6F8qKsoQ):applause:

Compare that to these, against one of the best defensive squads of the decade:

Dwayne Wade ECF '06 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDdlEFMIA5Y)

Who had the tougher drives to the basket? :wtf:

Thanks for reminding me of that series. Wade's play in that ECF has to be one of the best ever, and even more impressive was the fact it was against possibly the best defensive team this decade.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How come, after zone being introduced, there hasn't been a single wing player to score over 30ppg while shooting over 50%? They are being forced into tougher shots. Is it coincidence that not one wing player has shot over 50% while getting 30ppg+?

There was no wing player besides Jordan to score 30+ ppg/50+% FG from 1985 through the present (Bernard King in '85 was the last to do so). So what does that prove exactly? Was zone around from '85 onward?


Take a look at the wing players that were scoring over 30ppg prior to zone. There were about 6 or 7 that scored while shooting over 50% or just under. I'd say the closest to score 30ppg while shooting near 50% after zone have been Wade and Lebron.

What wing scorers besides Jordan averaged over 30 ppg/50% FG prior to zone (which was really implemented in 2005 and later) but after 1985? Nique did it twice ('86 and '88), Kobe once, and TMac once (both in '03), and none were above 47% FG (which isn't "just under 50%").

[Flamboyant]

It's rare for any teams besides the worst/most undermanned in the league to run 'zone' for more than a handful of possessions, once in a blue moon, if ever. That's crystal clear not only from what the coaches have said, but from simple observation- just watching the games.

All of the things you listed- help defenses, double teaming, switching on screens, and my favorite 'zone' sandwiches aren't new inventions, they've been around for a few decades now. Watch the video I posted in the OP, it should clear up a lot of things for you.

Everyone knows that zone sandwitches were invented in 08 offseason. :wtf:

Seriously, do you literally think that I thought there was no help D back then?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw

:14 mark: "You can't double yet,... now you can"

Yes there was double teaming back then.

Newsflash: There IS hand-checking in todays game.

But just like what you are arguing against handchecking now, help defense WAS limited then.

And, I never said that there are teams that use zone as their primary defense. However there are lots of games, when Celtics used zone pretty much the whole game (against Rockets, Spurs.)


I've had this argument too many times.

It's funny how those who agree with Bruce and Dondadda only like to look at their numbers and dismiss the numbers from the other side.

How come, after zone being introduced, there hasn't been a single wing player to score over 30ppg while shooting over 50%? They are being forced into tougher shots. Is it coincidence that not one wing player has shot over 50% while getting 30ppg+?

Take a look at the wing players that were scoring over 30ppg prior to zone. There were about 6 or 7 that scored while shooting over 50% or just under. I'd say the closest to score 30ppg while shooting near 50% after zone have been Wade and Lebron.

Actually there aren't any premiter players to average even 25ppg on 50%. While during MJs Bulls years only, there were like 7-8 players to do so, besides him. But we are supposed to believe that all of those players (none of whom were freaky athletes like Wade, or Bron) would have gotten higher ppg on higher FG% in todays rules. Appearently there are facts to prove it as well.

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=bruceblitz]Dumars of the

[bruceblitz]

[QUOTE=bruceblitz]1999-00

[bruceblitz]

http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5800021415


It seems these days the only place you can corner an NBA point guard is in a locker room. (Thanks for the time, Skip.) If you've read this blog or the Race to the MVP column since I've been writing it for the past year, you know I think this is the golden age of the point guard.

From classic pass-first guys such as Jason Kidd to you-can't-hand-check-me speedsters such as Chris Paul and Devin Harris (who is having quite the week), point guard play in the Association has never been better. And this week, I'd like to thank a couple of guys who have validated my thoughts: San Antonio's Tony Parker and Utah's Deron Williams.

NBA.com's man in the Texas triangle, Art Garcia, has written splendidly about how the Spurs have returned home after an eight-game road trip and weathered Tim Duncan's and Manu Ginobili absence thanks to Parker's brilliance.

"I prepared myself today," said Parker, referring to Duncan's late scratch the previous night.

"Speed is an important thing and he has speed," Blazers coach Nate McMillan said of Parker. "We tried every defense ... but he was like a roadrunner just blowing by us."

As we've noted before, when the NBA started re-enforcing the hand-checking rule more stringently before the 2004-05, it may have been the most significant rules decision since the three-point line was added before the 1979-80 season. Instead of opposing guards being able to sink a meat-hook into a guy's side and direct him all over the court, the keep-your-hands-to-yourself edict has allowed basketball to be played closer to the way the good Dr. James Naismith intended when he wrote up the original 13 rules in 1891.

One of the interesting things about the rule is it also allows guards to go where most guards haven't been able to go before -- close to the hoop.

Check out the photo above. Parker is excellent at breaking down a defense. Just ask the Cleveland Cavaliers, whom Parker torched en route to a Finals MVP.

While his speed can get him close to the rack, his decent outside shot can keep the defense honest. If he finds his line of sight impeded near the rim, Roger Mason or Michael Finley are patiently waiting for the kick-out pass in the short corner.

As you can see in a play like that, the marriage of the two significant rule changes (hand-checking, three-point line) work to make the game more fluid and well-spaced in the half-court.

And it's not only speedy dudes like Parker or Paul or two-time MVP Steve Nash who benefit from this rule re-enforcement. Strong point guards such as Williams, who also benefits from playing in a high-side pick-and-roll offense, who can work their way past smaller guards without being poked in the side along the way.

Williams, some of you may remember, was No. 10 in our first Race to the MVP this season, even though he hadn't played a game because of injury. Since the calendar flipped to 2009, Williams has averaged a double-double with 22.1 points and 10.8 assists per game. Yes, folks, those are MVP-type digits.

Also, if you think those rules only benefit point guards, take a check at some of the guys who play on the wing. LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade and Brandon Roy handle the ball a lot for their teams. Their size and strength would negate any attempt to hand-check them on the perimeter, they too benefit from these rules.

:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

League leaders in points:

2008-09 NBA Dwyane Wade 2386
2007-08 NBA Kobe Bryant 2323
2006-07 NBA Kobe Bryant 2430
2005-06 NBA Kobe Bryant 2832
2004-05 NBA Allen Iverson 2302 (rules changes go into full effect)
2003-04 NBA Kevin Garnett 1987



Now let's look at PPG leaders who average 24 points per game or more:
2003-2004 ppg:
Points Per Game Leaders

1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 28.0
2. Peja Stojakovic-SAC 24.2
3. Kevin Garnett-MIN 24.2
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 24.0




2004-2005 ppg (rules changes in full effect)

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Allen Iverson-PHI 30.7
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 27.6
3. LeBron James-CLE 27.2
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.1
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 26.0
6. Tracy McGrady-HOU 25.7
7. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 25.5
8. Vince Carter-TOT 24.5
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 24.1

2005-2006 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2
6. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 26.5
9. Michael Redd-MIL 25.4
10. Ray Allen-SEA 25.1
11. Elton Brand-LAC 24.7
12. Vince Carter-NJN 24.2


2006-2007 ppg

Points Per Game Leaders

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 31.6
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 28.9
3. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 28.4
4. LeBron James-CLE 27.3
5. Michael Redd-MIL 26.7
6. Ray Allen-SEA 26.4
7. Allen Iverson-TOT 26.3
8. Vince Carter-NJN 25.2
9. Joe Johnson-ATL 25.0
10. Tracy McGrady-HOU 24.6
11. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 24.6


2007-2008 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. LeBron James-CLE 30.0
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
3. Allen Iverson-DEN 26.4
4. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 25.7
5. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 25.2



2008-2009 ppg

Points Per Game

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 30.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 28.4
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 26.8
4. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.9
5. Danny Granger-IND 25.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 25.3









Now let's compare that to the last couple of years Jordan was a Bull:

1997-1998 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 28.7
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.3
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
(these were the only 3 players over 24ppg)

1996-1997 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 29.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.4
3. Glen Rice-CHH 26.8
4. Mitch Richmond-SAC 25.9
5. Latrell Sprewell-GSW 24.2


1995-1996 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.4
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.9
3. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 26.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 25.7
5. David Robinson*-SAS 25.0

(notice, only one perimeter player)


1994-1995 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
2. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.8
3. David Robinson*-SAS 27.6
4. Karl Malone-UTA 26.7
5. Jamal Mashburn-DAL 24.1
(Notice the lack of perimeter players)


1993-1994 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. David Robinson*-SAS 29.8
2. Shaquille O'Neal-ORL 29.3
3. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 27.3
4. Dominique Wilkins*-TOT 26.0
5. Karl Malone-UTA 25.2
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.5

(where are the perimeter players?)


1992-1993 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 32.6
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.9
3. Karl Malone-UTA 27.0
4. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 26.1
5. Charles Barkley*-PHO 25.6
6. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.2


1991-1992 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 30.1
2. Karl Malone-UTA 28.0
3. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.6
4. Clyde Drexler*-POR 25.0
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 24.0



1990-1991 ppg

Points Per Game leaders

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 31.5
2. Karl Malone-UTA 29.0
3. Bernard King-WSB 28.4
4. Charles Barkley*-PHI 27.6
5. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 26.6
6. Michael Adams-DEN 26.5
7. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 25.9
8. Chris Mullin-GSW 25.7
9. David Robinson*-SAS 25.6

(notice the lack of perimeter players, imagine Clyde Drexler, Joe Dumars, Tim Hardaway, prime Penny Hardaway, Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller and players like Isiah Thomas playing under today's rules, they would all register 30+ppg seasons more than once.)

During Jordan's era it was MUCH MUCH more difficult for perimeter players to score as much as today's perimeter players....

90's defense was the best defense at containing perimeter basketball players. 90's defenses took the best aspects of 80's defenses and added to them. 00's defenses were stripped of their rights to actually physically contain the ball handler. Why do you think the 04 Pistons defense fell off so quick?
:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

You keep typing about zones, as if teams didn't run zones, aka 1-2-2 box and 1 in the Jordan era. You don't know what the hell you are talking about, it just isn't handchecking, it's the amount of touch calls, the circle area in the paint to get credit for a charge, and the loss of the ability for bigs to camp out in the paint due to a 3 second defensive rule now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA&feature=channel_page
:no: :rolleyes:


I love it when kids say that they didn't run match-up zones in Jordan's era but when you watch full game film, or remember watching games from that era, teams ran match-up zones all the time. What a joke.
:confusedshrug:

[bruceblitz]

Why are you wasting my time?


-Jordan didn't face great defense in the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4W5siGgcc
(more coming)

-Jordan didn't face zone defenses, (Pat Riley makes fun of the Hawks for trying to use a 1-2-2 trapping zone defense in the early 90's, the Hawks weren't the only team. 1-2-2 aka box and 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukEhjT16hMI
At the 5:45 mark listen to what Jordan says about getting EASY LOOKS against the zone defense

-Average teams in the MJ era didn't play great d:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-BzacrbJ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyXhG7yBQ98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp53zWynjh4
(more coming)

-Jordan faced weak defenses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xJJNUkrdyQ

-Jordan faced single coverage his entire career:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Now, watch the videos, stop typing. It wasn't easier to score for bigs in Jordan's era, they got more touches because you didn't have as many ball-hog perimeter players who think they deserve 18-20 shots per game, despite the fact that nearly all of them miss over 50% of their shots.
Now, if they actually WATCHED these videos, they would put their keyboards down.

[Leviathon1121]

There was no wing player besides Jordan to score 30+ ppg/50+% FG from 1985 through the present (Bernard King in '85 was the last to do so). So what does that prove exactly? Was zone around from '85 onward?



What wing scorers besides Jordan averaged over 30 ppg/50% FG prior to zone (which was really implemented in 2005 and later) but after 1985? Nique did it twice ('86 and '88), Kobe once, and TMac once (both in '03), and none were above 47% FG (which isn't "just under 50%").

Anyone of you guys going to respond to this? Looking at you Plowking.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Bruce Blitz, you are only using one year before the rule change, why?

2002-2003
Points Per Game
1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 32.1
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 30.0
3. Allen Iverson-PHI 27.6
4. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 27.5
5. Paul Pierce-BOS 25.9
6. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.1

2001-2002
Points Per Game
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 31.4
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 27.2
3. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.1
4. Tracy McGrady-ORL 25.6
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 25.5
6. Kobe Bryant-LAL 25.2
7. Vince Carter-TOR 24.7


2000-2001
Points Per Game
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse-DET 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.5
5. Vince Carter-TOR 27.6
6. Chris Webber-SAC 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady-ORL 26.8
8. Paul Pierce-BOS 25.3
9. Antawn Jamison-GSW 24.9

Bruce Blitz, you are looking at one year and trying to make some radical conclusion. It doesn't work that way.

Scoring by the numbers you are using is pretty much the same now as it was then.

[DonDadda59]

I've had this argument too many times.

It's funny how those who agree with Bruce and Dondadda only like to look at their numbers and dismiss the numbers from the other side.

How come, after zone being introduced, there hasn't been a single wing player to score over 30ppg while shooting over 50%? They are being forced into tougher shots. Is it coincidence that not one wing player has shot over 50% while getting 30ppg+?

Take a look at the wing players that were scoring over 30ppg prior to zone. There were about 6 or 7 that scored while shooting over 50% or just under. I'd say the closest to score 30ppg while shooting near 50% after zone have been Wade and Lebron.

Well, I'm stumped. You sure got me, but oh, what's this?


There was no wing player besides Jordan to score 30+ ppg/50+% FG from 1985 through the present (Bernard King in '85 was the last to do so). So what does that prove exactly? Was zone around from '85 onward?

What wing scorers besides Jordan averaged over 30 ppg/50% FG prior to zone (which was really implemented in 2005 and later) but after 1985? Nique did it twice ('86 and '88), Kobe once, and TMac once (both in '03), and none were above 47% FG (which isn't "just under 50%").

Wade 30.2 49.1% shooting last year, SO CLOSE... but no cigar. :oldlol:
If it wasn't for the zone, he would've gotten it :(

Can we stop trying to attribute certain things to 'zone', it exists only in random spurts in the NBA. Just read what the coaches have been saying all along and this isn't even a debate- just re-education.

[andgar923]

I can't believe anybody anybody is arguing against this.

Only a complete IDIOT would argue that the anybody even plays REAL zone, let alone that its effective.

And if you're an NBA player/team that can't beat a zone (which they all can) then you need to go back to college or high school.

All you gotta do is ATTACK IT and move without the ball, specially since it leaves big gaps for players to exploit.

But then again..... we're talking about the modern day basketball player with IQs lower than those of a snail.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at the ultimate trolls of this board congregating in this thread.


There was no wing player besides Jordan to score 30+ ppg/50+% FG from 1985 through the present (Bernard King in '85 was the last to do so). So what does that prove exactly? Was zone around from '85 onward?
Yea, and how many Kobe-Wade-Lebron scoring level wing players were there from 1985-2000?

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at the ultimate trolls of this board congregating in this thread.


Yea, and how many Kobe-Wade-Lebron scoring level wing players were there from 1985-2000?

Chicken or the egg. You can subtract 2-4 ppg from all of these perimeter players' averages if they play from '88-'98.

[Fatal9]

Chicken or the egg. You can subtract 2-4 ppg from all of these perimeter players' averages if they play from '88-'98.
Subtract points? What the hell kind of reasoning is this :oldlol:

Yea, Kobe/Lebron/Wade can only dream of putting up Alex English/Bernard King type of scoring production.

[DonDadda59]

Now the real party begins, Fatal is here :party:

Anything to add to the discussion? Who's your new favorite player today?

[AirJordan23]

[QUOTE=Fatal9]Why not try this tactic? I'd never post my pic on this forum for the same privacy reasons but I'll do it with this bar easily.

http://i39.tinypic.com/v79ldj.jpg

Using the black bar prevents her identity and we can determine reasonably well if she is good looking or not.

FYI ISH, I am not a Kobe fan. I borrowed someone elses KB jersey because it was really hot outside.
Fatal9 exposed as a Kobe stan, once again. :roll:at the last part.

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE]
Fatal9 exposed as a Kobe stan, once again. :roll:at the last part.

Shocking, really it is :eek:

REPPED.

Fatal, come out of the closet already you f*cking pu$$y. I'll wait...

[chitownsfinest]

LMFAO @ the last line:
"FYI ISH, I am not a Kobe fan. I borrowed someone elses KB jersey because it was really hot outside".
You are one of the biggest puss*es I have ever seen. Stop with your fake sh!t.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Subtract points? What the hell kind of reasoning is this :oldlol:

Yea, Kobe/Lebron/Wade can only dream of putting up Alex English/Bernard King type of scoring production.

Kobe could score in any era. His lower ppg output would be because he wouldn't have been gifted 10+ FTA/gm for 4 seasons for shooting 20 footers. It simply wouldn't have happened back then. Lebron and Wade can't shoot for **** compared to guys like English/Aguirre/King, and can't work without the ball as well as virtually ANYONE in the 80's. Yet somehow they're infinitely more gifted scorers. Nice calculus. :oldlol:

They also would not be permitted by their coaches to play the same style of ball they play now. Something to consider. Also, LMAO @ you trying to denigrate Bernard freaking King, who, when healthy, was one of the greatest scorers in history. :oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

[DonDadda59]

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

Yeah but players Today are FORCED to take ill-conceived jumpers. That's why Lebron sometimes takes fadeaway 26 ft 3s w/ 20 seconds left on the clock after throwing down 3 uncontested monster dunks in a row. He and Wade have questionable mid-range games yet they put up seasons of 30+ PPG on 48+% shooting. Jordan with his physical gifts, shooting ability, and high IQ would be befuddled by today's 'advanced defense'.

[chitownsfinest]

Jordans ppg against a team notorious for running illegal zones in the 80s:
43.3 ppg against the 86 Celtics.
Yeah, he would sure have a harder time scoring :oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

Yeah but players Today are FORCED to take ill-conceived jumpers. That's why Lebron sometimes takes fadeaway 26 ft 3s w/ 20 seconds left on the clock after throwing down 3 uncontested monster dunks in a row. He and Wade have questionable mid-range games yet they put up seasons of 30+ PPG on 48+% shooting. Jordan with his physical gifts, shooting ability, and high IQ would be befuddled by today's 'advanced defense'.

:oldlol:

[Da_Realist]

Jordans ppg against a team notorious for running illegal zones in the 80s:
43.3 ppg against the 86 Celtics.
Yeah, he would sure have a harder time scoring :oldlol:

Good point. I remember Tommy Heinsohn said the Celtics used Larry Bird as a free safety type of player.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE]
Fatal9 exposed as a Kobe stan, once again. :roll:at the last part.
exposed and who isthe chick he talking about that looks good.

[AirJordan23]

[QUOTE=AirJordan23]
exposed and who isthe chick he talking about that looks good.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133191&page=6
No pictures, though. Got deleted.

[lbj23clutch]

Everytime Fatal gets owned he seems to always dissapear from the thread. :roll:

[lbj23clutch]

LMFAO @ the last line:
"FYI ISH, I am not a Kobe fan. I borrowed someone elses KB jersey because it was really hot outside".
You are one of the biggest puss*es I have ever seen. Stop with your fake sh!t.
LMAO yea he "borrowed" that kb24 jersey and also happened to make a thread asking where to buy Kobe's shoes and Kobe's puppet shirt for his "little cousin" LOL :oldlol:

[BallersTalk]

Brilliant.

[slevin6zer0]

Damn. Fatal getting owned and exposed all in one thread.

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE]
Fatal9 exposed as a Kobe stan, once again. :roll:at the last part.

Which thread is that from?

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).


http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1821/fakedaa.jpg

http://blog.myweddingfavors.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/shhh.jpg

Looks like you were in the Kobe witness protection program. Did he at least buy you a diamond ring after the 'consensual' sex? Show your face :roll:

I can see the b*tch in you, so can everyone else...

[BallersTalk]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).
Righttttttttttttttt. You couldn't think of a much more creative excuse. Come on. YOU'RE BETTA DAN THAT

[lbj23clutch]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).
:roll: :roll: :roll: your pathetic.

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

@ How all of these guy's care so much about who fatal9 like's....I mean really...A page worth of comments because the guy had a Kobe Jersey on?...Come on ppl...Why can't Kobe be one of his fav players?.....

Now, if he's denieing that he like's Kobe, then we all know that's not true, but sh!t, should it really matter this much?....My god...:oldlol:

[lbj23clutch]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

@ How all of these guy's care so much about who fatal9 like's....I mean really...A page worth of comments because the guy had a Kobe Jersey on?...Come on ppl...Why can't Kobe be one of his fav players?.....

Now, if he's denieing that he like's Kobe, then we all know that's not true, but sh!t, should it really matter this much?....My god...:oldlol:
We don't care if hes a fan of Kobe it's just that he won't admit it lmao. He claims to be a fan of a different player every week. He has claimed to be a MJ fan, yet he overrates pippen and downgrades MJ in every MJ/KB debate and 99% of the time he's defending Kobe lol. He's just hiding it behind that Pippen av in reality. His agenda is just as bad as Bruce or PAH.

[Leviathon1121]

I could give a **** who his favorite player is, I'm waiting for him to stop ignoring this. I'm waiting for him and his groupies to answer this.

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

[Cyclone112]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).

Lol, seriously? You couldn't just admit you like Kobe and have a jersey of his. I have like 5 different players jerseys and I'm sure many more hardcore fans have plenty more. You are such an idiotic douche.

[slevin6zer0]

This page is bookmarked. I love seeing morons and liars like Fatal EXPOSED.

[Doranku]

Bruce reminds me of Bumblebee from Transformers. Bumblebee suffered damage to his voice box or whatever, so he talks by using the words from songs, television, etc. Bruce is similar, it seems he can't really form his own arguments, so instead he gives us massive copy/pastes from various articles online.

[Jacks3]

LOL @ these pathetic jordan stans.:roll:

[slevin6zer0]

LOL @ these pathetic jordan stans.:roll:
Pathetic because they disagree with you?

[zabuza666]

:oldlol: at this thread. Trolls galore, seriously.

That picture was when I was on vacation in cinque terre on a hot ass day, luckily my friend brought a couple of his jerseys. I posted that specific pic because I wanted to keep it basketball related (in the spirit of ISH lol). I don't even own jerseys, wearing NBA merchandise has always been cheesy to me (unless it's a hot f*cking day, and you don't want to wear a t-shirt).

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Leviathon1121]

LOL @ these pathetic jordan stans.:roll:

Hi jacks, care to explain this to me?

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

Just going to ignore it, aren't you?

[plowking]

Well, I'm stumped. You sure got me, but oh, what's this?



Wade 30.2 49.1% shooting last year, SO CLOSE... but no cigar. :oldlol:
If it wasn't for the zone, he would've gotten it :(

Can we stop trying to attribute certain things to 'zone', it exists only in random spurts in the NBA. Just read what the coaches have been saying all along and this isn't even a debate- just re-education.

You do realize you're supporting the argument, not going against me by saying that?


That is exactly what I'm saying. Why is it that there are no players to average 30ppg on 50% shooting? Because in fact, wing players are forced to shot more jumpshots. Furthermore, not only that, but since it is harder for big men to score now with rules put in place, the big men look to give it to the guards more since it is harder for them. So the fact is, they are taking more shots, but tougher ones. So scoring has not in fact gotten easier, as shown since no wing player has managed 30 ppg on 50%.

Thanks for agreeing with me though. :oldlol:

[plowking]

Anyone of you guys going to respond to this? Looking at you Plowking.

Answers above...

[plowking]

Hi jacks, care to explain this to me?

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

Just going to ignore it, aren't you?

Wade shot 46% off jumpers alone. Furthermore he was a great finisher at the ring to begin with. He's just an all around efficient player. What's the problem?


Let me guess, Wade would average 12ppg, 4rpg and 2apg on 34% shooting in Jordan's era right? :ohwell:

[Fatal9]

Wade shot 46% off jumpers alone. Furthermore he was a great finisher at the ring to begin with. He's just an all around efficient player. What's the problem?


Let me guess, Wade would average 12ppg, 4rpg and 2apg on 34% shooting in Jordan's era right? :ohwell:
Yup, Wade has just as good a midrange game as Kobe (imo), but he "couldn't shoot for ****" in the 80s. Actual quote from a Jordan fan earlier on. He's nothing compared to English and King (English's stats inflated in a similar way Nash's were in Phoenix though), who are superior scorers in every way to Wade (who has a shot to be the second or third greatest SG ever). :oldlol:

You can also knock off 5 points because apparently getting hacked at the rim wasn't called back then (it's not like Jordan shot 12 FTs in a season or anything). Kobe apparently wouldn't even shoot as many FTs as even Bernard King (10) did. It's not like he doesn't drive to the basket at all, or shoot every intentional/tech FT for his team or is the best at drawing fouls on the perimeter.

[OldSchoolBBall]

You do realize you're supporting the argument, not going against me by saying that?


That is exactly what I'm saying. Why is it that there are no players to average 30ppg on 50% shooting? Because in fact, wing players are forced to shot more jumpshots.

Again, no wing player besides Jordan has averaged 30 ppg on 50% shooting since 1985. Was "zone" around from 1985 onward?

[Leviathon1121]

Wow, that one went right over your head didn't it plowking. What do you think the sole purpose of KB42PAH's videos is? It is to try and show that Jordan would not be able to be "Jordan" in the league as it is today. And yet, you have a shorter, slower, less athletic player in Wade who is primarily a slasher putting up 30 PPG on 49% shooting against biomechanical athletic borg superstars that play a zone defense from the 50th century that takes 500 supercomputers to analyze. And KB42PAH wants us to believe Jordan would not be able to drive or score as easily...please. You get what I am saying?

And as oldschoolbball pointed out, only Jordan has been good enough as a wing player to score over 30 PPG on 50+ FG%. Yet, somehow, it is out of reach for Jordan to do it in today's league while Wade was 1% away? You are not convincing anyone. Take your zone defense to Lakersground, they will love you there.

[Fatal9]

Again, no wing player besides Jordan has averaged 30 ppg on 50% shooting since 1985. Was "zone" around from 1985 onward?
What great wing scorers played in the non-zone era from 1985-2000? Drexler? :oldlol:

[plowking]

Wow, that one went right over your head didn't it plowking. What do you think the sole purpose of KB42PAH's videos is? It is to try and show that Jordan would not be able to be "Jordan" in the league as it is today. And yet, you have a shorter, slower, less athletic player in Wade who is primarily a slasher putting up 30 PPG on 49% shooting against biomechanical athletic borg superstars that play a zone defense from the 50th century that takes 500 supercomputers to analyze. And KB42PAH wants us to believe Jordan would not be able to drive or score as easily...please. You get what I am saying?

And as oldschoolbball pointed out, only Jordan has been good enough as a wing player to score over 30 PPG on 50+ FG%. Yet, somehow, it is out of reach for Jordan to do it in today's league while Wade was 1% away? You are not convincing anyone. Take your zone defense to Lakersground, they will love you there.

LOL, I don't doubt Jordan. He could come into today's league at his prime, and he'd average the same numbers he did back then.

To oldschoolbball. Before the induction of zone, I believe 7 players had done it. Before 1985 doesn't interest me, before the zone does.

[plowking]

Bernard King, Rick Barry, George Gervin and Adrian Dantley all did it a few times.

[Alpha Wolf]

where's alpha wolf?


kobe>mj

all day!

[Leviathon1121]

kobe>mj

all day!

Hi Alpha, care to take a stab as well?

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

[Samurai Swoosh]

LMFAO @ the last line:
"FYI ISH, I am not a Kobe fan. I borrowed someone elses KB jersey because it was really hot outside".
You are one of the biggest puss*es I have ever seen. Stop with your fake sh!t.
I know right, bro

When have you ever borrowed a friend's jersey, which btw fits your physique exactly? LOL ...

Seriously, dude has been exposed, I don't know why he doesn't just conceed and get it over with. The gimmick has long since been up.

[juju151111]

LOL, I don't doubt Jordan. He could come into today's league at his prime, and he'd average the same numbers he did back then.

To oldschoolbball. Before the induction of zone, I believe 7 players had done it. Before 1985 doesn't interest me, before the zone does.
They have done it more because they were not 3 pt happy and took better shots. I don't get why you have to use 30. Didn't Wade avg 27ppg on 49% in 06 on less shot attempts?? He did it twice too. Wade wasn't has good of a shooter back then yet he shoots 49%??? I guess the zone didn't stop him lol. Also how LJ avg 31 ppg when he could barley make a jumper on 48%. All i see is BS excuses.

[plowking]

Hi Alpha, care to take a stab as well?

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

What are you saying? A great player can't average great numbers?

So we have Shaq, who has bigger hands than Jordan, taller than Jordan, more of an athletic freak for his size, yet he can't average better numbers than Jordan!

OMG, conspiracy!

[plowking]

They have done it more because they were not 3 pt happy and took better shots. I don't get why you have to use 30. Didn't Wade avg 27ppg on 49% in 06 on less shot attempts?? He did it twice too. Wade wasn't has good of a shooter back then yet he shoots 49%??? I guess the zone didn't stop him lol. Also how LJ avg 31 ppg when he could barley make a jumper on 48%. All i see is BS excuses.

Players are forced to shoot more jumpshots and bad shots, due to big men having a tougher time scoring now.

What you're basically saying is the league got dumber and started shooting more outside shots. Nice proof and facts presented there. :rolleyes: They are forced into these shots.


It is no harder or easier to score now than it was back then. Honestly, the two negate each other. I've been watching basketball long enough and both handchecking and zone effect a player in different ways. There is no real difference, if at all.

[juju151111]

Players are forced to shoot more jumpshots and bad shots, due to big men having a tougher time scoring now.

What you're basically saying is the league got dumber and started shooting more outside shots. Nice proof and facts presented there. :rolleyes: They are forced into these shots.


It is no harder or easier to score now than it was back then. Honestly, the two negate each other. I've been watching basketball long enough and both handchecking and zone effect a player in different ways. There is no real difference, if at all.
LOL How does big man have tougher time scoring?? They have less skill bigs now. Yao ming,Dirk, prime shaq has no problem scoring. LOL I never said the league got dumber I said they got 3 happy. LMFAO they were not forced into any shots the increase of using the 3pt line has been rising since the 80s. I don't see cp3 getting to the basket with such ease in the 90s. The way he flops when he gets touch is crazy.

[plowking]

LOL How does big man have tougher time scoring?? They have less skill bigs now. Yao ming,Dirk, prime shaq has no problem scoring. LOL I never said the league got dumber I said they got 3 happy. LMFAO they were not forced into any shots the increase of using the 3pt line has been rising since the 80s. I don't see cp3 getting to the basket with such ease in the 90s. The way he flops when he gets touch is crazy.

Back to basket rule...

[juju151111]

Back to basket rule...
How did Yao and dirk avg 25ppg then?? Big al just avg 23ppg and he mainly works in the post. All i see is less skill big man.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What great wing scorers played in the non-zone era from 1985-2000? Drexler? :oldlol:

You're right. No one could score prior to 2004 and after 1975. How silly of me. :oldlol:

He made a SPECIFIC statement, which was that players were averaging 30 ppg/50% FG pre-zone. I've shown that this is false, as no one besides Jordan had done so since 1985. So unless zone was around from 1985 onward, he has to look for another reason why no perimeter player averaged 30 ppg/50% shooting from 1985 on. Nice try at a deflection, though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

To oldschoolbball. Before the induction of zone, I believe 7 players had done it. Before 1985 doesn't interest me, before the zone does.

Again, no perimeter player did it since 1985 besides MJ. 1985-2004 was "pre-zone," yet no one did it for those 19 years besides one guy. So how is it zone that's preventing people from doing it when no one was doing it before zone anyway?


Bernard King, Rick Barry, George Gervin and Adrian Dantley all did it a few times.

None of them did since 1985. Was zone around from 1985-2004? No. So why did no one besides Jordan do it?

[Leviathon1121]

Plowking, you keep missing the point of my post. This topic is addressed at KPAH's zone defense videos. The point of his videos is to show that today's defenses are leaps and bounds better then they were when Jordan played, thus propping up Bryant, and diminishing Jordan.

I really have no idea what point you are trying to make in this thread, first you wanted to know where all the 30 PPG and 50% FG shotting wing players disappeared too, stating that only Wade and Lebron have come close since zone was allowed. Then Oldschoolbball shows Jordan was the only player to do it since 1985, then you say you dont care about 1985-present, you only care about before the zone. I think you are confused about the zone, or are just making stuff up now, either way I can't follow it.

[TryToBeUnbias]

way to keep pah relevant

[andgar923]

I could give a **** who his favorite player is, I'm waiting for him to stop ignoring this. I'm waiting for him and his groupies to answer this.

Dwayne Wade 2008-2009: 30.2 PPG on 49% FG.

So, we have Wade, who is shorter then Jordan, slower then Jordan, has smaller hands then Jordan (effects finishing at the rim), scoring 30 points a game on 49% FG while being primarily a slasher in today's NBA riddled with superhuman athletic players and futuristic zone defense schemes. And you want us to believe Jordan would have a harder time scoring and getting to the basket today? Right....

I think MJ's IQ alone would enable him to be more efficient than any other player today.

I mean.... Kobe has shot the best fg% of his career I believe, because he's played smarter. And MJ in his 3rd season was smarter than current Kobe, more skilled than him (or anybody else) and more athletic than Wade.

He would expose the sh!t out of the so called "zone."

I made some vids where he plays vs the Nets, and his off the ball movement tells the entire story. Wade loves getting the ball on the top left hand side and running a pick and roll from the top center, and that's basically it. If he would to move without the ball like MJ and have MJ's IQ he'd be averaging 34 pts with ease, while shooting a high percentage. But he doesn't "know" how yet and I think by the time he figures this out, his athleticism will start to diminish.

Either way..... is useless arguing about the 'zone' since they don't actually play it and never did.

[DonDadda59]

Players are forced to shoot more jumpshots and bad shots, due to big men having a tougher time scoring now.

What you're basically saying is the league got dumber and started shooting more outside shots. Nice proof and facts presented there. :rolleyes: They are forced into these shots.


It is no harder or easier to score now than it was back then. Honestly, the two negate each other. I've been watching basketball long enough and both handchecking and zone effect a player in different ways. There is no real difference, if at all.

You keep going in circles with your misguided theories that have been debunked already. Explain to me how guys like Wade and Lebron are 'forced' to take bad jumpers when they can get to the rim with the greatest of ease? And the only reason big men have a 'tougher' time scoring is becaus they're simply not as talented today as in the past. Why is Shaq at 37 years old a top 3 center averaging 18PPG on 60% shooting when it's so tough out there for him? :oldlol:

THE ZONE DOESN'T EXIST IN THE NBA, why is this so hard to comprehend? All of the rules introduced in this era were done so with the express goal of 'freeing up' perimeter players- making it easier to score, and that's exactly what happened. Now whether they take advantage of these allowances and play high IQ ball like Wade did in '06 (62% FG against Detroit, one of the best defenses of this era) or SETTLE for low IQ, bad jumpers is the players' prerogative.

[DonDadda59]

kobe>mj

all day!

Old Man Jordan Sh*tting All Over Young Kobe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLVfougACiQ) :oldlol:

[plowking]

You keep going in circles with your misguided theories that have been debunked already. Explain to me how guys like Wade and Lebron are 'forced' to take bad jumpers when they can get to the rim with the greatest of ease? And the only reason big men have a 'tougher' time scoring is becaus they're simply not as talented today as in the past. Why is Shaq at 37 years old a top 3 center averaging 18PPG on 60% shooting when it's so tough out there for him? :oldlol:

THE ZONE DOESN'T EXIST IN THE NBA, why is this so hard to comprehend? All of the rules introduced in this era were done so with the express goal of 'freeing up' perimeter players- making it easier to score, and that's exactly what happened. Now whether they take advantage of these allowances and play high IQ ball like Wade did in '06 (62% FG against Detroit, one of the best defenses of this era) or SETTLE for low IQ, bad jumpers is the players' prerogative.

Because the NBA is full of great big men at the moment right? Of course Shaq is going to be third best. How about a 37 year old Kareem still being up there with the best of them?

I'm not even arguing that it's tougher to score in either era. I'm just providing the statements from the other perspective, which all of you pro-90's posters just seem to ignore.

I think it's no tougher, or no easier to score now than it was back then.

Your argument is beyond hypocritical. You're using Wade's FG% in that series to say look how easy it is to score. Then when I showed that wing players FG% has dropped generally since the inclusion of zone, you ignored it.

Get this bias agenda out of your head. These players from different eras are simply facing different defenses, not better or worse.

[DonDadda59]

Because the NBA is full of great big men at the moment right? Of course Shaq is going to be third best. How about a 37 year old Kareem still being up there with the best of them?

I'm not even arguing that it's tougher to score in either era. I'm just providing the statements from the other perspective, which all of you pro-90's posters just seem to ignore.

I think it's no tougher, or no easier to score now than it was back then.

Your argument is beyond hypocritical. You're using Wade's FG% in that series to say look how easy it is to score. Then when I showed that wing players FG% has dropped generally since the inclusion of zone, you ignored it.

Get this bias agenda out of your head. These players from different eras are simply facing different defenses, not better or worse.

I have no problem with what you say you're trying to show, but when people start the whole 'well zone FORCES players to take tough shots, yadda yadda yadda' and 'Jordan never had to face zone' that's when I'll call bulls*it on them. And you can't deny that the new rules are in place to facilitate easier scoring, open up clogged lanes for drives to the basket, etc. You think the no contact rules, 3 second violation, etc were put in place to make it harder on wing players?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Wade > any 80's / 90's SG outside of Jordan

[Samurai Swoosh]

Old Man Jordan Sh*tting All Over Young Kobe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLVfougACiQ) :oldlol:
Dude, 19 year old Kobe in the All Star Game

It's comparing Apples and Grapes for christ sakes.

MJ > Kobe

But this comparison is retarded.

Just as it would be equally retarded for a Kobe stan to come in this thread and say ...

Kobe Bryant 42 Points @ the half on Jordan (Regular Season Game) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-2Hd-Ly2CQ)

When Jordan was 39 / 40 years old, crippled with knee injury, and he didn't even guard him that game. It was mainly Stackhouse

[DonDadda59]

Wade > any 80's / 90's SG outside of Jordan

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/837171~Clyde-Drexler-Rim-action-Photofile-Posters.jpg

[DonDadda59]

Dude, 19 year old Kobe in the All Star Game

It's comparing Apples and Grapes for christ sakes.

MJ > Kobe

But this comparison is retarded.

Just as it would be equally retarded for a Kobe stan to come in this thread and say ...

Kobe Bryant 42 Points @ the half on Jordan (Regular Season Game) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-2Hd-Ly2CQ)

When Jordan was 39 / 40 years old, crippled with knee injury, and he didn't even guard him that game. It was mainly Stackhouse

So I post a video of a 35 year old, past his prime Jordan going against a young athletic 19 year old Kobe... 1-on-1, with Kobe accomplishing nothing besides flailing at the air while Jordan was scoring at will ON HIM. And you counter with a game where Kobe scored on Stackhouse, Tyrone Lue, BJ Simmons and he didn't score a single point on 40 year old MJ. How are the two related? :wtf:

[andgar923]

So I post a video of a 35 year old, past his prime Jordan going against a young athletic 19 year old Kobe... 1-on-1, with Kobe accomplishing nothing besides flailing at the air while Jordan was scoring at will ON HIM. And you counter with a game where Kobe scored on Stackhouse, Tyrone Lue, BJ Simmons and he didn't score a single point on 40 year old MJ. How are the two related? :wtf:

This proves that athleticism >>>>>> ability!

































Oh wait.....

[chitownsfinest]

Because the NBA is full of great big men at the moment right? Of course Shaq is going to be third best. How about a 37 year old Kareem still being up there with the best of them?

I'm not even arguing that it's tougher to score in either era. I'm just providing the statements from the other perspective, which all of you pro-90's posters just seem to ignore.

I think it's no tougher, or no easier to score now than it was back then.

Your argument is beyond hypocritical. You're using Wade's FG% in that series to say look how easy it is to score. Then when I showed that wing players FG% has dropped generally since the inclusion of zone, you ignored it.

Get this bias agenda out of your head. These players from different eras are simply facing different defenses, not better or worse.
I see where you are coming from man, but did zone really have that much of an effect on scorers? Zone was allowed in 01-02, let's compare the numbers of top perimeter players that were playing then pre zone and after zone.
T-Mac:
00-01: 25.6 ppg on 45% shooting
T Mac the next two seasons: 30 ppg 45% shooting
It clearly did not have that much of an effect on him
AI: Two seasons before zone- 30 ppg 42% shooting
Next two seasons: 30 ppg on 41% scoring
Now this is the one that gets me. If zone made you shoot more j's, then how can someone who relies so much in getting to the paint have little effect on his numbers? His FTA per game also went slightly up meaning he could still draw his usual contact when driving in. Where was the zone effect here?
Kobe: Two season before zone 26 ppg 47% shooting
Next two seasons: 28 ppg 46% shooting
Paul Pierce: Two seasons before zone 22.4 ppg 45% shooting
Next two seasons: 26 ppg on 43% shooting
Slight effect on the fg%, but nothing serious.
What does this show? Zone does not have that huge of an effect great perimeter players. Neither does any other rule and great perimeter players will play great regardless of rule changes, era, pace, etc.
Also, you as a Miami Heat fan, should know that physicality did have a true effect on the game as whole. How did the Heat have top defenses in the mid-late 90s? You would know that Pat Riley initiated a clutch and grab defense and abused rules in favor playing physical. Watch the Heat-Bulls series from 97 and you will see what I am talking about. Riley assigned Voshon Lenard (SP?) to do the dirty work on MJ and he played dirty on defense the entire series.

[DonDadda59]

'Anyway, the assumption that zone defenses are not played in the NBA is false. The rules allow for full-court zone pressure, and because defenses are permitted to aggressively double-team the ball anywhere on the floor, teams play de facto zones in the frontcourt, top. To one degree or another, every NBA team uses some type of zone. Throw in the added pressure of "staying legal"—i.e., not violating the defensive guidelines—and an NBA coach can only laugh when he hears about a lack of creativity in the pros.'

-'They're coaching in the NBA, not in the NCAA'; Jack McCallum, SI.com
11/5/90





'Zone. It's a dirty word in the NBA, but Los Angeles Lakers' Coach Pat Riley has hung it on the Boston Celtics. Riley accused the Celtics of blatant use of an illegal defense against center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar during the Celtics' 148-114 romp Monday in the opening game of the best-of-seven championship series.'

-Miami Herald
5/30/85


''My concerns are that more teams are going to the trap,'' said [Chuck] Daly, ''which ultimately ends in a zone defense for a period of seconds, which makes it extremely difficult to attack in the 15 or so odd seconds after it crosses the half-court line to set up the offense. In college ball, where zones are legal, they use a 45-second clock.

''After our game Tuesday night against Miami, I watched the Laker and Chicago game on satellite TV. I noticed that Chicago has adopted a half-court that L.A. has been using so successfully and it ended up in a zone defense for a period of seconds, which forced L.A. to take a quick shot without the ability to set up their half-court offense.''

Before flying to New York yesterday, Daly put the Pistons through what he called a ''reasonably hard workout and a film session.''

''When you play New York,'' he said, ''you have to prepare yourself because they have so many different traps.''

-'Defense Becomes a Pressing Problem in the NBA', NY Times
12/22/88



LA QUINTA, Calif. -- Responding to the proliferation of all-out zone defenses being implemented as the 1988-89 season unfolded, the Competition Committee of the National Basketball Association has, for the umpteenth time, attempted to address the matter at the league meetings.

"We received a great many complaints, especially over the last third of the season," said league vice president of operations Rod Thorn.

-'NBA TARGETS ZONE DEFENSE', Boston Globe
9/18/89



Chicago Is Zoning In

A farmer at heart, Phil Jackson was planting seeds again today. He kept referring to Seattle's tenacious defense as a "zone defense," perhaps angling early for some illegal defense calls.

"The one we like the best is the box and one on Michael," Jackson said.

Jackson also basically dared George Karl to stick Gary Payton on Michael Jordan, saying he genuinely believed the Sonics would not make that move. "I don't think Seattle is going to put Gary Payton on Michael Jordan," Jackson said. "We like that matchup because he'll get in foul trouble.

"In a zone defense like Seattle plays, they're just going to send him some way where they can double-team him all the time."

-'N.B.A. FINALS: NOTEBOOK;Jackson Can't Picture The Nets in His Future', NY Times
6/4/96

I thought Jordan never faced the zone :confusedshrug:

oh wait,

38 Yr Old MJ vs T'Wolves Zone (Garnett and Billups lead squad) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0)

[plowking]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/PHO/837171~Clyde-Drexler-Rim-action-Photofile-Posters.jpg

:roll:

Wade has already achieved more in his NBA career during his 6 year span than Clyde has for his whole career.

Furthermore Wade's peak play is better than Clyde's.

[Fatal9]

:roll:

Wade has already achieved more in his NBA career during his 6 year span than Clyde has for his whole career.

Furthermore Wade's peak play is better than Clyde's.
I know :oldlol:

This moron is actually even trying to pretend they are on the same level, especially scoring-wise? Clearly doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

I love this "30 ppg on 50%"...I guess English in '86 wouldn't count because he only got 29.8 ppg? LOL at comparing the best perimeter players of the 90s (outside of Jordan) to the best perimeter players from 2000 onward. Huge difference in talent there. You also have to consider that Kobe and Lebron would be taking less threes so their FG% would rise significantly (Lebron would certainly be over 50%, Kobe/Wade would float around it).

[Da_Realist]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]

Quote:
'Anyway, the assumption that zone defenses are not played in the NBA is false. The rules allow for full-court zone pressure, and because defenses are permitted to aggressively double-team the ball anywhere on the floor, teams play de facto zones in the frontcourt, top. To one degree or another, every NBA team uses some type of zone. Throw in the added pressure of "staying legal"

[Fatal9]

Yea that "zone defense" was used on a rare select number of possessions, not like it happened all the time (because it would be called otherwise, you think Phil Jackson is going to sit there and let it happen all game?). MJ did in fact get numerous illegal defense calls when he'd pull out to the perimeter if he'd see it and just dribble nonchalantly until the refs blew the whistle. Judging by Mike's performance in the Seattle series and how successful they were at stopping him from getting to the rim (and the Daly Pistons), I guess whatever "zone" they used was quite effective at shutting him down (same thing happened with Lebron and Kobe who can't get to the rim against good zone teams).

Especially Phil in the Seattle article just confirms how successful zone is at a) shutting down Michael and b) not let him exploit individual matchups (which is why they changed it in the first place according to Stu Jackson!).

[juju151111]

I thought Jordan never faced the zone :confusedshrug:

oh wait,

38 Yr Old MJ vs T'Wolves Zone (Garnett and Billups lead squad) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0)
Come on Fatal and plow respond to his post and stop trying to undemine greats like Glyde the glide. LOL at Dwade being Way better then Glyde. I think Wade is better, but not by how much MJ is better then Wade. Also Bernard King was a great player even tho he was injured in his prime. Why did the 92 knicks double/triple team MJ if Zone didn't exist? RESPOND TO DON POST.

[juju151111]

Yea that "zone defense" was used on a rare select number of possessions, not like it happened all the time (because it would be called otherwise, you think Phil Jackson is going to sit there and let it happen all game?). MJ did in fact get numerous illegal defense calls when he'd pull out to the perimeter if he'd see it and just dribble nonchalantly until the refs blew the whistle. Judging by Mike's performance in the Seattle series and how successful they were at stopping him from getting to the rim (and the Daly Pistons), I guess whatever "zone" they used was quite effective at shutting him down (same thing happened with Lebron and Kobe who can't get to the rim against good zone teams).

Especially Phil in the Seattle article just confirms how successful zone is at a) shutting down Michael and b) not let him exploit individual matchups (which is why they changed it in the first place according to Stu Jackson!).
Alright Fatal i put up with these lies,twisting, and BS statements for long enough. I guest Posting Facts like Bruce and Don don't get through your fake brain. Lets see you disprove this

(Note I won't be posting anything after 30 year old MJ, Kobe is currently 30 so it's fair)
Visual proof #1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&feature=channel_page ( this shows a gm by Mj early in his career when he was a one man show. Watch how physical the teams played him and watch the doubles,triple teams, but wait thats impoosible thats the weak era with no Zone)

Visual Proof #2 (early MJ not getting doubled oh wait) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&feature=channel_page LOL

visual proof #3 This is a montage of how teams guarded MJ the first too vids were only of single games) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&feature=channel_page (Note: This is the video that exposed Pah)

Vishal proof #4 MJ vs pistons defense (Which tried to hurt Mj which is why he got tim grover to start training him in 89 to get bigger and stronger) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE The FATCTS


""Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harassment of zone traps and double and triple-teaming to win the scoring title by averaging 37.1 points a game. This time, he faces new challenges not only from opposing coaches and their defenses but also from the plans of his own coach."

By SAM GOLDAPER, Special to The New York Times
Published: Wednesday, November 4, 1987" :hammertime:

Visual proof #5 Mj Vs the 92 knicks which you said were thrash on defense LMFAO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ (Go to point 2:36 and get Exposed. The knicks stop Mj from having a dunk in 2 games and only made 3 shots in two gms at the basket yet he still was killing them with his jumpers. He went 10-19 on jumpers in game 1, and 11-21 on jumpers in gm 2. Also pay attention to the freaking doubles and trilple teams. He also didn't add alot of things the knicks did in 92 because of the 10 min limit, but you get the point. Go watch the 92 ECSF it'as on Youtube to see the full extent of how they played MJ. :hammertime: :hammertime: :rockon:

[DonDadda59]

...

Classic Fatal...



Posters like you (and bruceblitz) want everyone to believe every team was loaded with excellent defenders and played a level of defense that was as physical and intelligent as the 90s Knicks and late 80s Pistons, but weaker teams have literally NO answer. I mean, I am sorry but Jordan against the '08 Celtics would not play well on a game by game basis. Jordan really benefitted from the "non-zone" era because players that sized up with him couldn't prevent him from blowing past them and players that could prevent this (Dumars, KJ etc.) could not bother his jumpshot because they were 3-4 inches shorter. He was a nightmare matchup in this sense and if a team like the Celtics who have 6'8 long perimeter defenders to bother your shot and then have zoned up to cover the star player off the very first dribble, MJ would struggle too. You know this better than anyone.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1821/fakedaa.jpg

You have absolutely no credibility, stop posting already. I've put you on the slab and carved you up way too many times to count. I'll respond to you once you stop trying to swindle the public.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wA10r5V2-V8/SBDaxLYTRrI/AAAAAAAAAOI/WeJOO9G8jwA/s400/closet2.jpg

Anytime you're ready... :violin:

[DonDadda59]

Come on Fatal and plow respond to his post and stop trying to undemine greats like Glyde the glide. LOL at Dwade being Way better then Glyde. I think Wade is better, but not by how much MJ is better then Wade. Also Bernard King was a great player even tho he was injured in his prime. Why did the 92 knicks double/triple team MJ if Zone didn't exist? RESPOND TO DON POST.

They're not going to respond because they don't have s*it. Like I've been saying, this isn't a debate, this is re-education.

For the record, Clyde was a better all around player then Wade- better rebounder, playmaker, defender. The Glyde is on record about his feelings of the 'zone era' and how difficult it is for guys like Wade to score.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yea that "zone defense" was used on a rare select number of possessions, not like it happened all the time (because it would be called otherwise, you think Phil Jackson is going to sit there and let it happen all game?). MJ did in fact get numerous illegal defense calls when he'd pull out to the perimeter if he'd see it and just dribble nonchalantly until the refs blew the whistle. Judging by Mike's performance in the Seattle series and how successful they were at stopping him from getting to the rim (and the Daly Pistons), I guess whatever "zone" they used was quite effective at shutting him down (same thing happened with Lebron and Kobe who can't get to the rim against good zone teams).

Especially Phil in the Seattle article just confirms how successful zone is at a) shutting down Michael and b) not let him exploit individual matchups (which is why they changed it in the first place according to Stu Jackson!).

You mean this Stu Jackson?
http://www.nba.com/features/stujackson_bogpresentation_070503.html
May 5, 2007

Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it’s been successful thus far?

SJ: The hand check has always been a part of pro basketball. What we have done is interpret the hand check slightly different in that, if a defender has what I’ll refer to as a “stayed hand” on the defender, e.g. with a stiffened elbow, a foul on the defense would be called if it affects the offensive player's speed, rhythm or balance. It's been five years since we really began to interpret the hand check in this way, and we continue to focus on enforcement.

Three years ago, before the ’04-05 season, we also began to really interpret and enforce the forearm and body check, where by we had defenders either placing a hand or a forearm on an offensive player’s shoulder or hip in an effort to slow them down and give them a defensive advantage in terms of sliding in front of the offensive player. When we disallowed that – the use of the hand, the use of the forearm to the shoulder, the hip, the body – that in conjunction with the hand check interpretation started to give offensive players on the perimeter more offensive freedom.



Do you think there is more tinkering that has to be done, or do you think that now that you’ve identified the body-checking aspect and the hand-checking aspect that this is sort of what you had in mind for the game?

SJ: It’s an area that we’ll continue to monitor on an on-going basis, but right now, we like how we’re interpreting and how the officials are calling the game with respect to illegal contact, especially on the perimeter, and I don’t anticipate we’re going to make any major change to it.




This also be the shameless poor lad with thy feeble attempts to bait the Michael Jordan fans in a Michael Jackson condolence thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3192753&postcount=126


My guess is that he being a Toronto Raptors fan, turned into a savage Bryant fellator following the 81 point game. The wise man shan't tolerate such nonsensical contradiction post haste. Tis heartwarming to witness the increase in the shared kindred creedence of the wise man.

[DonDadda59]

[QUOTE=Abraham Lincoln]You mean this Stu Jackson?
http://www.nba.com/features/stujackson_bogpresentation_070503.html
May 5, 2007

[I][B]Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it

[amfirst]

My personally opinion in watching Jordan's game, I have never seen him face a modern zone defense. Try to prove me wrong by posting a clip. And don't post a crappy zone defensive team. You can tell who knows how to play zone when there's a 2nd defender shadowing the first defender.

[juju151111]

My personally opinion in watching Jordan's game, I have never seen him face a modern zone defense. Try to prove me wrong by posting a clip. And don't post a crappy zone defensive team. You can tell who knows how to play zone when there's a 2nd defender shadowing the first defender.
Go about 5 posts up and read my post. I posted like 5 vids. read my last post

[DonDadda59]

My personally opinion in watching Jordan's game, I have never seen him face a modern zone defense. Try to prove me wrong by posting a clip. And don't post a crappy zone defensive team. You can tell who knows how to play zone when there's a 2nd defender shadowing the first defender.

You're going to find that, if you haven't already, your 'personally opinion' isn't worth sh*t. Watch the videos JuJu posted,look at the first post in this thread and watch the video, then go back to your corner. Jordan and players in that era faced blatant zone defenses (REAL zone, no 3 sec. bs, w/ all the physical play added in) because it was nearly impossible to enforce the illegal defense rules.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Does Fatal know that his secret love embarrassing himself in the '04 finals is the reason why that change occurred? :oldlol:
Tis my fellow wise man, for the truth shan't be denied any longer. However, tis time to surrender thy noble efforts in the mental education of our kindred creedence to Fatal9 and his counterparts. Whether he even was a Kobe Bryant fan in 2004 be the real question.



http://ballerblogger.com/2009/02/04/cuban-helped-eliminate-handchecking/

So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often.

The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.

Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span.

Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged.

[DonDadda59]

Tis my fellow wise man, for the truth shan't be denied any longer. However, tis time to surrender thy noble efforts in the mental education of our kindred creedence to Fatal9 and his counterparts. Whether he even was a Kobe Bryant fan in 2004 be the real question.



http://ballerblogger.com/2009/02/04/cuban-helped-eliminate-handchecking/

So a few years ago, Im watching the Pistons beat the Lakers in the Finals. I’m seeing Larry Brown’s Pistons fully take advantage of the rules. It was impossible to stay in front of Kobe. He could get anywhere he wanted on the court. The Pistons knew it as well. So every time he tried to get to the basket, they would body up and bump him. The officials did just as they were supposed to. Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

At that point it dawned on me that the concept of playing the advantage in a one on one matchup had nothing to do with which TEAM gained the advantage. After all, its the team that scores the most points that wins. Detroit had a brilliant strategy and was playing it to perfection. After the finals, I sat down with the league and discussed with them the difference between player and team advantage. The discussion lead to changing the rules so that perimeter contact was called far more often.

The NBA eliminated all forms of hand-checking before the 2004-2005 season. The rule was intended to give offensive players more freedom, but has given offensive players an unfair advantage. It’s virtually impossible to keep perimeter players out of the paint.

Unfortunately for Cuban and the Mavs, the rule changes he helped initiate contributed to Dallas’ loss to the Miami Heat in the 2006 NBA Finals. Dwyane Wade shot an NBA Finals record 97 free throws. To his credit, Wade attacked the basket relentlessly, but there were times when Maverick defenders beat Wade to a spot on the floor, had their arms to their sides, and were whistled for blocking fouls when Wade initiated contact. It was ridiculous. The Mavericks attempted 48 free throws in Game’s 5 and 6. Wade attempted 46 freebies over the same span.

Cuban has done a lot for the NBA. But the hand-checking rule was better left unchanged.

Kobe's piss poor play and inability to handle minor physical pressure and Mark Cuban's meddling helped to create the monster we all know affectionately as D-Whistle :oldlol:

Finals record 97 free throws, 46 in games 5 and 6 alone... but it's harder now for players to drive and they're FORCED to take bad jumpers :roll:

If there's nothing else, it seems the wise men have put this bullsh*t to rest :cheers:

http://nomm.com/Stills/images/CheckmateD.jpg

[amfirst]

Go about 5 posts up and read my post. I posted like 5 vids. read my last post

I wouldn't consider those video zone defense. They were more like double teams, which allows the offensive player to split them.

U want to watch real zone, which the way KG and Dwight play zone. They get into position right outside the paint as the 2nd line defender. At that point they aren't even guarding their own man because the 3rd or back side defender rotates over to cover their man.

I didn't see any of this in those videos. All I saw was defense with big holes and maybe a glipse of really weak zone, like the 2nd line defender guarding both his man and staying in position in case jordan drive, but this is flawed because if the offensive player moves he would have to move toom, which from the video happens a lot. This will cause him to be out of position to react to the drive because he doesn't have a third man guarding his player.

[DonDadda59]

U want to watch real zone, which the way KG and Dwight play zone.

Once again :rolleyes:

38 Yr Old Jordan vs T'Wolves 'Zone' (Garnett & Billups lead team) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMd1m-OOWH0)

That count as real 'zone'?

[juju151111]

I wouldn't consider those video zone defense. They were more like double teams, which allows the offensive player to split them.

U want to watch real zone, which the way KG and Dwight play zone. They get into position right outside the paint as the 2nd line defender. At that point they aren't even guarding their own man because the 3rd or back side defender rotates over to cover their man.

I didn't see any of this in those videos. All I saw was defense with big holes and maybe a glipse of really weak zone, like the 2nd line defender guarding both his man and staying in position in case jordan drive, but this is flawed because if the offensive player moves he would have to move toom, which from the video happens a lot. This will cause him to be out of position to react to the drive because he doesn't have a third man guarding his player.
LOL I don't believe you watched all those vids. LOL at wat point in the vids does wat you describe happens. The whole team was shadowing MJ in the knicks video. Also Stop your BS KG and DH play man to man defense and come to double when someone drives. Peitrus was the only one on Kobe 95% of the time.

[catch24]

'04 pistons did not play zone, '08 celtics did not play zone. These two were arguably the greatest defenses of THIS ERA and definitely Kobe's "toughest" competition. Lol @ the garbage zone arguments.

[juju151111]

'04 pistons did not play zone, '08 celtics did not play zone. These two were arguably the greatest defenses of THIS ERA and definitely Kobe's "toughest" competition. Lol @ the garbage zone arguments.
EXXAAAACCCTTLLYYYY :applause: :applause:

[Abraham Lincoln]

'04 pistons did not play zone, '08 celtics did not play zone. These two were arguably the greatest defenses of THIS ERA and definitely Kobe's "toughest" competition. Lol @ the garbage zone arguments.
But, the 2006 Suns & 2007 Suns have played zone. Thus they be the top defensive team of all time with their intricate design and complicated zone sandwiches. :lol

All satrical nonsense aside, tis be nothing more than fools gold to wise man. Tis enlighting to see thy conversion of thou into a fellow wise man.

[DonDadda59]

DAMN you brought the heat on this one. :eek:

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/images/ether.jpg

:D

[stephanieg]

Teams should play zone vs. LeBron and CP3 instead of letting them do whatever. Especially since their team mates can't do anything but shoot jumpers anyway. Right?

[andgar923]

I wouldn't consider those video zone defense. They were more like double teams, which allows the offensive player to split them.

U want to watch real zone, which the way KG and Dwight play zone. They get into position right outside the paint as the 2nd line defender. At that point they aren't even guarding their own man because the 3rd or back side defender rotates over to cover their man.

I didn't see any of this in those videos. All I saw was defense with big holes and maybe a glipse of really weak zone, like the 2nd line defender guarding both his man and staying in position in case jordan drive, but this is flawed because if the offensive player moves he would have to move toom, which from the video happens a lot. This will cause him to be out of position to react to the drive because he doesn't have a third man guarding his player.

Okay... then please post an NBA video where they play real zone, and I will dismantle it by showing all the huge holes and weak defense being played.

There is a reason why the so called "zone" defense is as rare as a white player winning the dunk contest. Because just like the Birdman, it just doesn't fu#kin work!

[DonDadda59]

Just when you homers thought it was safe to come out...


EL SEGUNDO - Lakers guard Sasha Vujacic said the Dallas Mavericks hatched a surprise when they employed a zone defense in the second half of Sunday's game.

It caused confusion, and the overall effect was to bog down the Lakers offense.

"We hadn't seen a zone for a long time and it came out of nowhere," Vujacic said Monday. "For 60 games teams played man-to-man against us. No team played zone."

Although the Lakers eventually prevailed, Dallas chiseled away at a 14-point, third-quarter deficit and took the lead, largely because the Lakers offense went stagnant.

It particularly slowed down the Lakers' second-unit group.

"When the zone got sprung on them, they had that hesitation and ended up shooting nine 3-pointers that didn't go in," Coach Phil Jackson said. "That was a loss of focus because they lost the function of basketball, which is penetration."

With that in mind, the Lakers spent the majority of Monday's two-hour practice working on the principles of their zone offense. The focus was on the best ways to attack a zone, which include moving the basketball to make the zone shift, making sharp cuts without the ball, and maintaining proper spacing.

Jackson said he welcomes the prospect of future opponents serving the Lakers a hefty portion of more zone.

"We don't mind that," he said. "That aspect is OK. They (opponents) should look at it and say, 'We can play zone defense against them.' But it's easy to say it; it's hard to play it."

Unlike in high school and college basketball, zone defense in the NBA seldom is used. Lakers forward Lamar Odom described it as a pride thing.

"Usually when a team in the NBA plays zone it's because they have matchup problems," Odom said.

That's why the Mavericks went to it because they were being eaten alive in the low post by the Lakers' Pau Gasol, who didn't miss a field goal in 10 first-half attempts.

But Gasol's shot attempts shrank considerably in the second half, partly because the zone defense had an umbrella defense-effect on him and partly, as Jackson alluded to, the Lakers got jump-shot happy.

"The zone took us out of our rhythm,'' Kobe Bryant said. "And he (Gasol) wasn't able to get his touches."

Vujacic saw zone defenses extensively while playing European basketball and said they are used so much internationally because defense is not a priority.

"Personally, I love playing against the zone," Vujacic said. "I believe it puts teams on their heels as the last resort, when they play it."

-'Lakers revisit zone principles', OC Register
Monday, March 16, 2009

[plowking]

They're not going to respond because they don't have s*it. Like I've been saying, this isn't a debate, this is re-education.

For the record, Clyde was a better all around player then Wade- better rebounder, playmaker, defender. The Glyde is on record about his feelings of the 'zone era' and how difficult it is for guys like Wade to score.

I don't need to respond. I know Jordan can play against any defense ever.
Jordan would dominate in any era. Though he would not average 40+ppg in this era. His numbers would be near identical.

As for Clyde being better. Stop living in the past. Better defender? Get real.

I don't care what Clyde says, he is not better than Wade. So if Wade said something about Clyde's era and how easy it is to score would you believe him? No. Stop using the words of players as some backing point or fact.

I agree with most of your posts concerning Jordan, though your bias for older players is beyond help. You probably think Dumars is better than Wade as well...

The only thing Clyde did better than Wade is rebound the ball.

[D-Rose]

:oldlol: @ Wade > Clyde. Absolutely ridiculous. This is what happens when you don't watch the 80s or 90s. :oldlol:

Clyde was more athletic than Wade, but Wade is more explosive. Clyde was the better shooter, the better slasher, the better scorer, the better defender, the better rebounder, literally everything except passing. Clyde certainly had better handles, he would be LeBron James if not better than LeBron James if he was playing in today's league.
Someone born in the 90s is telling us about watching the 80s n 90s :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

I don't need to respond. I know Jordan can play against any defense ever.
Jordan would dominate in any era. Though he would not average 40+ppg in this era. His numbers would be near identical.

As for Clyde being better. Stop living in the past. Better defender? Get real.

I don't care what Clyde says, he is not better than Wade. So if Wade said something about Clyde's era and how easy it is to score would you believe him? No. Stop using the words of players as some backing point or fact.

I agree with most of your posts concerning Jordan, though your bias for older players is beyond help. You probably think Dumars is better than Wade as well...

The only thing Clyde did better than Wade is rebound the ball.

That's nice.

Anything to say about the topic? You know, zone defense?

BTW, Duncan (not an 'older' player is the best PF EVER) and I'm on record that Lebron will go down as a top 5 player ever, so yes... my 'bias' shows itself as always :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Just when you homers thought it was safe to come out...
DAMN FATAL AND PLOWKING JUST GOT EXPOSED HAS HELLL LOL AT ZONE DEFENSE WHEN EVERY DEFENSIVE COACH SAYS IT SUXS. OWNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD :lol :oldlol: :cheers: :hammertime:

[DonDadda59]

DAMN FATAL AND PLOWKING JUST GOT EXPOSED HAS HELLL LOL AT ZONE DEFENSE WHEN EVERY DEFENSIVE COACH SAYS IT SUXS. OWNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD :lol :oldlol: :cheers: :hammertime:

But Sasha Vujacic likes it... that's all that matters.

[plowking]

DAMN FATAL AND PLOWKING JUST GOT EXPOSED HAS HELLL LOL AT ZONE DEFENSE WHEN EVERY DEFENSIVE COACH SAYS IT SUXS. OWNEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD :lol :oldlol: :cheers: :hammertime:

Oh dear...

Dondadda, defense is put in place despite what you think. Players sag off their players completely and help out on players like Wade and Lebron.

It happened in Jordan's era. I'm not soo much arguing the zone, but more the effectiveness of the defense. Defense now is just as good as before, and there would not be a difference in efficiency for players.

[juju151111]

But Sasha Vujacic likes it... that's all that matters.
:lol IGurentee You Fatal doesn't come back in this thread and if he does he will go off topic. Good research man. You destroyed Kobe fans Zone arguement. lol This was one of their major reason in saying Kobe is equal to MJ. LOL I wonder wat they will come up with now.:bowdown: :oldlol: :lol :hammertime:

[juju151111]

Oh dear...

Dondadda, defense is put in place despite what you think. Players sag off their players completely and help out on players like Wade and Lebron.

It happened in Jordan's era. I'm not soo much arguing the zone, but more the effectiveness of the defense. Defense now is just as good as before, and there would not be a difference in efficiency for players.
I agree with this through.

[chitownsfinest]

Oh dear...

Dondadda, defense is put in place despite what you think. Players sag off their players completely and help out on players like Wade and Lebron.

It happened in Jordan's era. I'm not soo much arguing the zone, but more the effectiveness of the defense. Defense now is just as good as before, and there would not be a difference in efficiency for players.
Good post but you never responded to a post I made earlier in response to a post you made, what would you say about this?

I see where you are coming from man, but did zone really have that much of an effect on scorers? Zone was allowed in 01-02, let's compare the numbers of top perimeter players that were playing then pre zone and after zone.
T-Mac:
00-01: 25.6 ppg on 45% shooting
T Mac the next two seasons: 30 ppg 45% shooting
It clearly did not have that much of an effect on him
AI: Two seasons before zone- 30 ppg 42% shooting
Next two seasons: 30 ppg on 41% scoring
Now this is the one that gets me. If zone made you shoot more j's, then how can someone who relies so much in getting to the paint have little effect on his numbers? His FTA per game also went slightly up meaning he could still draw his usual contact when driving in. Where was the zone effect here?
Kobe: Two season before zone 26 ppg 47% shooting
Next two seasons: 28 ppg 46% shooting
Paul Pierce: Two seasons before zone 22.4 ppg 45% shooting
Next two seasons: 26 ppg on 43% shooting
Slight effect on the fg%, but nothing serious.
What does this show? Zone does not have that huge of an effect great perimeter players. Neither does any other rule and great perimeter players will play great regardless of rule changes, era, pace, etc.
Also, you as a Miami Heat fan, should know that physicality did have a true effect on the game as whole. How did the Heat have top defenses in the mid-late 90s? You would know that Pat Riley initiated a clutch and grab defense and abused rules in favor playing physical. Watch the Heat-Bulls series from 97 and you will see what I am talking about. Riley assigned Voshon Lenard (SP?) to do the dirty work on MJ and he played dirty on defense the entire series.

[DonDadda59]

Oh dear...

Dondadda, defense is put in place despite what you think. Players sag off their players completely and help out on players like Wade and Lebron.

It happened in Jordan's era. I'm not soo much arguing the zone, but more the effectiveness of the defense. Defense now is just as good as before, and there would not be a difference in efficiency for players.

But perimeter players of this generation have many more advantages that players of the past did not, this is not my personal opinion, this is FACT. It's right there in the rule books. You say that the defense is more or less the same now as it was before in terms of scheming- traps, doubles, etc. I agree to a degree but now guys like Kobe, Wade, Lebron don't have to play with handcuffs on w/ handchecking being outlawed and the 3-second rule was put in place to encourage drives to the basket and higher percentage shots. This is a FACT.

[DonDadda59]

:lol IGurentee You Fatal doesn't come back in this thread and if he does he will go off topic. Good research man. You destroyed Kobe fans Zone arguement. lol This was one of their major reason in saying Kobe is equal to MJ. LOL I wonder wat they will come up with now.:bowdown: :oldlol: :lol :hammertime:

Who cares what they come up with, there's always a mountain of evidence and facts to rip their bulls*it to shreds.

P.S. If you like a player, enjoy his game. Don't come up with b.s. to try to knock greatness down to prop up someone else, you just might get embarrassed.

I'm out for the night :cheers:

[juju151111]

But perimeter players of this generation have many more advantages that players of the past did not, this is not my personal opinion, this is FACT. It's right there in the rule books. You say that the defense is more or less the same now as it was before in terms of scheming- traps, doubles, etc. I agree to a degree but now guys like Kobe, Wade, Lebron don't have to play with handcuffs on w/ handchecking being outlawed and the 3-second rule was put in place to encourage drives to the basket and higher percentage shots. This is a FACT.
The thing i don't get is the nba wanted to increase scoring and give the offensive player a bit more advantages. They even said it. What was the point of outlawing handchecking then?

[plowking]

Good post but you never responded to a post I made earlier in response to a post you made, what would you say about this?

Your post backs up my point in a sense.

Kobe, Mac and Pierce were all reaching their primes at the time, so their numbers were going to get better. Notice how their FG% went down each time though. Zone was around in Jordan's time as well, though was not used as much as now, not that its used a lot now either.

See with Iverson, even after the handchecking rule and zone rule, his numbers stayed the same. This is what I'm trying to point out. Defense in general is just as effective as it ever was.

[eliteballer]

[QUOTE]1978-79

Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

[branslowski]

In the 80's, basically every team gave up well over 100pts...So, since we aren't going to say that it was due to bad defense (which it probably wasn't) then we can attribute that to pace of play meaning MORE POSSESIONS..So those who may say Kobe, LeBron, Wade wouldn't do this and that in the 80's, give them a faster fast break pace with MORE possesion's and see the outcome....

In this era..You have Defensive 3sec Rule and Hand-checking (though its sometime's a myth, meaning the hand-check rule, because player's still somewhat get away with using their hands, so even though it's mostly myth, old-schoolers will use it to their advantage because its in the rule book:ohwell: ) player's in the old school era went against more Physical defense, so to use Zone or whatever and say this or that guy from the old-school wouldn't still be great is stupid...

Final Point..I see Great comments in this Thread from both side's....But ofcource, the opposite side's of the argument's will call their counter part's argument "stupid, trolling, exc.."...So that's when we get nowhere...

Point is...Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and on are all great Player's who would ADJUST to any era and situation they are in...So basically, these guy's would still be their Elite selves...End/

[nnn123]

I don't really feel like looking up the stats, but wasn't there a significant increase across the board (for perimeter players) in PPG and FG%, after the handchecking rules in 2006?

[plowking]

But perimeter players of this generation have many more advantages that players of the past did not, this is not my personal opinion, this is FACT. It's right there in the rule books. You say that the defense is more or less the same now as it was before in terms of scheming- traps, doubles, etc. I agree to a degree but now guys like Kobe, Wade, Lebron don't have to play with handcuffs on w/ handchecking being outlawed and the 3-second rule was put in place to encourage drives to the basket and higher percentage shots. This is a FACT.

The regimes and tactics now are getting even better at shutting down these players.

Honestly, when it comes down to it, it's the NBA, always has and always will be the best league in the world. Players could adjust, just like people say, if Wilt had the same training as today's players he'd be great. Same goes here, if players were faced with certain defense, they'd adjust.

I judge players on how good a basketball player they are since basketball will always be basketball.

[chitownsfinest]

Your post backs up my point in a sense.

Kobe, Mac and Pierce were all reaching their primes at the time, so their numbers were going to get better. Notice how their FG% went down each time though. Zone was around in Jordan's time as well, though was not used as much as now, not that its used a lot now either.

See with Iverson, even after the handchecking rule and zone rule, his numbers stayed the same. This is what I'm trying to point out. Defense in general is just as effective as it ever was.
Not really, Kobe's actually increased and PP's drop was not that significant. T-Mac only went down by .006 points and AI suffered an injury that caused him to miss 20 games. My reasoning for AI is that if zone caused him to shoot more j's, why could he still get to the rim and draw his fouls? Also Kobe was not his prime at the time but the other three were already in it by the time zone was initiated.

Agreed with the last part. Great players would get theirs regardless of rules.

[plowking]

Not really, Kobe's actually increased and PP's drop was not that significant. T-Mac only went down by .006 points and AI suffered an injury that caused him to miss 20 games. My reasoning for AI is that if zone caused him to shoot more j's, why could he still get to the rim and draw his fouls? Also Kobe was not his prime at the time but the other three were already in it by the time zone was initiated.

Agreed with the last part. Great players would get theirs regardless of rules.


T-Mac was getting better as a player, he was still very young at the time, due to coming in straight from high school. So of course he was going to get better. Paul Pierce is the same age as Kobe, no? They both hit their peaks in their 26-29 year old stage. AI has always been a driving point guard, though it's not as if he fell in love with the J. On certain nights he was forced to shoot it more.

I can't really be bothered discussing these points in finer matters. Fact is great players would average the same numbers where ever they played.

[DonDadda59]

The regimes and tactics now are getting even better at shutting down these players.


Bullsh*t.

[supersmashbros]

Hey Bruce,

http://i39.tinypic.com/ftpy4y.jpg

:oldlol:

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Clyde certainly had better handles, he would be LeBron James if not better than LeBron James if he was playing in today's league.
Proof positive you never watched Clyde Drexler. And are horrendously overrating him. Clyde had average at best handles. He almost exclusively dribbled right, while looking down at the floor mind you. Better handle than Wade? You can't be serious.

[Da_Realist]

Just when you homers thought it was safe to come out...

Quote:
EL SEGUNDO - Lakers guard Sasha Vujacic said the Dallas Mavericks hatched a surprise when they employed a zone defense in the second half of Sunday's game.

It caused confusion, and the overall effect was to bog down the Lakers offense.

"We hadn't seen a zone for a long time and it came out of nowhere," Vujacic said Monday. "For 60 games teams played man-to-man against us. No team played zone."

Although the Lakers eventually prevailed, Dallas chiseled away at a 14-point, third-quarter deficit and took the lead, largely because the Lakers offense went stagnant.

It particularly slowed down the Lakers' second-unit group.

"When the zone got sprung on them, they had that hesitation and ended up shooting nine 3-pointers that didn't go in," Coach Phil Jackson said. "That was a loss of focus because they lost the function of basketball, which is penetration."

With that in mind, the Lakers spent the majority of Monday's two-hour practice working on the principles of their zone offense. The focus was on the best ways to attack a zone, which include moving the basketball to make the zone shift, making sharp cuts without the ball, and maintaining proper spacing.

Jackson said he welcomes the prospect of future opponents serving the Lakers a hefty portion of more zone.

"We don't mind that," he said. "That aspect is OK. They (opponents) should look at it and say, 'We can play zone defense against them.' But it's easy to say it; it's hard to play it."

Unlike in high school and college basketball, zone defense in the NBA seldom is used. Lakers forward Lamar Odom described it as a pride thing.

"Usually when a team in the NBA plays zone it's because they have matchup problems," Odom said.

That's why the Mavericks went to it because they were being eaten alive in the low post by the Lakers' Pau Gasol, who didn't miss a field goal in 10 first-half attempts.

But Gasol's shot attempts shrank considerably in the second half, partly because the zone defense had an umbrella defense-effect on him and partly, as Jackson alluded to, the Lakers got jump-shot happy.

"The zone took us out of our rhythm,'' Kobe Bryant said. "And he (Gasol) wasn't able to get his touches."

Vujacic saw zone defenses extensively while playing European basketball and said they are used so much internationally because defense is not a priority.

"Personally, I love playing against the zone," Vujacic said. "I believe it puts teams on their heels as the last resort, when they play it."

-'Lakers revisit zone principles', OC Register
Monday, March 16, 2009

:applause:

[DonDadda59]

People simply don't learn, gotta beat 'em over the head w/ this sh*t. :banghead:


With the zone, it would still be a pretty bad matchup for them but at least players would be in position to stop Jordan from getting in the lane so easily.

Interviewer: You point out that while scoring is going up, there’s not necessarily that many more shots and the reason for that has been the field goal percentage has gone up. What can we really attribute to that?

Stu Jackson: We attribute it to the fact that teams are getting more higher-quality shots because of teams’ abilities to penetrate the basketball. So, in other words, if you get more penetration, and more passes out of penetration, you’re going to tend to get higher-quality shots with more shooting set-up time. If you have more time to shoot the basketball, your percentage is going to increase. Because our rules are more focused on keeping the middle open and offering more opportunities for players to cut and penetrate the basketball in the middle of the floor, the quality of our perimeter shots has gone up and we’re also getting more higher-percentage shots inside.


There are other things that happened to allow more defensive freedom positioning wise (which I have said for how long now?).

Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it’s been successful thus far?

SJ: The hand check has always been a part of pro basketball. What we have done is interpret the hand check slightly different in that, if a defender has what I’ll refer to as a “stayed hand” on the defender, e.g. with a stiffened elbow, a foul on the defense would be called if it affects the offensive player's speed, rhythm or balance. It's been five years since we really began to interpret the hand check in this way, and we continue to focus on enforcement.

Three years ago, before the ’04-05 season, we also began to really interpret and enforce the forearm and body check, where by we had defenders either placing a hand or a forearm on an offensive player’s shoulder or hip in an effort to slow them down and give them a defensive advantage in terms of sliding in front of the offensive player. When we disallowed that – the use of the hand, the use of the forearm to the shoulder, the hip, the body – that in conjunction with the hand check interpretation started to give offensive players on the perimeter more offensive freedom.

What's the result of all the 'freedom' given to defensive players and their ability to stop easy penetrations, unlike in Jordan's era?

http://www.nba.com/media/stu_ppg_big.jpg

http://www.nba.com/media/stu_fgp_big.jpg

But I'm sure Fatal will tell me how Stu Jackson, the guy responsible for the rule changes, is wrong :roll:

[RocketGreatness]

:oldlol: @ Wade > Clyde. Absolutely ridiculous. This is what happens when you don't watch the 80s or 90s. :oldlol:

Clyde was more athletic than Wade, but Wade is more explosive. Clyde was the better shooter, the better slasher, the better scorer, the better defender, the better rebounder, literally everything except passing. Clyde certainly had better handles, he would be LeBron James if not better than LeBron James if he was playing in today's league.

What's your take DonDadda?

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol: @ Wade > Clyde. Absolutely ridiculous. This is what happens when you don't watch the 80s or 90s. :oldlol:

Clyde was more athletic than Wade, but Wade is more explosive. Clyde was the better shooter, the better slasher, the better scorer, the better defender, the better rebounder, literally everything except passing. Clyde certainly had better handles, he would be LeBron James if not better than LeBron James if he was playing in today's league.

What's your take DonDadda?

look back a few pages.

[juju151111]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]People simply don't learn, gotta beat 'em over the head w/ this sh*t. :banghead:



Interviewer: [I]You point out that while scoring is going up, there

[DonDadda59]

So Clyde eh? Good choice, would you agree with my assessment of the two?

I love Wade's game, but I give the edge to Clyde. Even though, Wade will probably rank higher than him all time, Clyde never had the obvious 'freedoms' a guy like Wade has.

Good assessment btw.

[plowking]

:oldlol: @ Wade > Clyde. Absolutely ridiculous. This is what happens when you don't watch the 80s or 90s. :oldlol:

Clyde was more athletic than Wade, but Wade is more explosive. Clyde was the better shooter, the better slasher, the better scorer, the better defender, the better rebounder, literally everything except passing. Clyde certainly had better handles, he would be LeBron James if not better than LeBron James if he was playing in today's league.

What's your take DonDadda?

You said you started watching NBA in 1995.

Exposed much?

[plowking]

I find it funny how the better defender, supposedly Clyde, has never made the all defensive team, while Wade has. Funny how it just works out that way...

[RocketGreatness]

I find it funny how the better defender, supposedly Clyde, has never made the all defensive team, while Wade has. Funny how it just works out that way...
Clyde Drexler had to compete against Michael Jordan, Gary Payton and Joe Dumars for All-Defensive selections.
Who does Wade compete against? Kobe Bryant? Chris Paul? :oldlol:

Wade was just the better shot blocker that's it, Clyde was just as good at reading the passing lanes and was the better man to man defender fairly easily.


You said you started watching NBA in 1995.

Exposed much?
Last I check, Drexler was still playing then.

[IInvented]

He also told us that Kobe Bryant was better post player than Tim Duncan.. :lol

[Fatal9]

If Stu Jackson's word is gospel now, lets also make sure we consider what he said in 2001-2002....




Eliminating illegal defense guidelines:

Jackson: The illegal defense guidelines needed to be eliminated because they have become problematic. They are problematic for our fans, who don't understand the rule. They are problematic for the officials, who admittedly have had difficulty administering the rule. And finally, our teams have used the guidelines in a way that produces isolation basketball. Teams identify areas on the floor that they can use to their advantage in a given offensive matchup and this produces a real sameness of play amongst a lot of our teams. With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played.

Reduce foul calls from incidental contact:

Jackson: That particular change was really proposed for two reasons. First, to take out the so-called touch fouls that are whistled by the officials during a game and seem to disrupt the flow of the game, even though they don't affect the play. So we're going to put some discretion back in the hands of the officials in calling a simple touch foul and allow that touch to happen without calling a foul. Second, if defensive teams know that they're not going to be called for a simple bump or touch foul, it might encourage them to aggressively defend by going out and extending the full court.

Such freaking hypocrites. Why am I wasting time on this? I don't even think this is a strong argument to be honest but if you think every little quote we dig up from Stu Jackson is going to our argument then use it for the other side too. And these idiots wonder why I don't respond to them...it's a waste of time. I'm not obssessed with you like you are obsessed with me, sorry guys :oldlol:

Also, you are including stats from 2001 onwards (odd because I've said before 2001-2005 was a stronger era defensively than nowadays). Is it really a surprise that the ppg and FG% would be lower considering the rule changes that occured while still allowing a more physical style of play? Why don't you do the same thing for Jordan's first 10 years in the league? You know when teams were shooting 47+% and scoring 105+ ppg. That wouldn't look too nice on your chart now would it? And this isn't suppose to be an insult to 80s and early 90s either, because they had some advantages over nowadays too, but anyone who acts like those days the basketball court was a minefield is clearly watching too many youtube mixes. But wow, I'm amazed over and over again at how you people use stats or quotes that are either irrelevant or used only selectively (and then come back to accuse me of the same thing...the irony in all this is too much).

:oldlol: at anyone taking Drexler over Wade by the way.

[Fatal9]

You said you started watching NBA in 1995.
Nah, he's been watching since the early 60s. Check his Russell thread, it's hilarious. He witnessed Russell get 30 points and 40 rebounds on Wilt in the NBA finals in 1962. He makes up this story of how it was Wilt's fault in that game because he missed freethrows (acting like he saw the game). Then someone caught this (I usually skip over his posts) and had to tell him Russell had that performance against the Lakers, who Wilt wouldn't join until 6-7 years down the road.

[plowking]

Clyde Drexler had to compete against Michael Jordan, Gary Payton and Joe Dumars for All-Defensive selections.
Who does Wade compete against? Kobe Bryant? Chris Paul? :oldlol:

Wade was just the better shot blocker that's it, Clyde was just as good at reading the passing lanes and was the better man to man defender fairly easily.


Last I check, Drexler was still playing then.

No he wasn't. You seem to think Kobe is the only good man to man defender in the league. I watched Wade make two game winning blocks against Detroit and the Wolves this season simply off great man to man D.

It's quite clear you're the new poster Clutchcity as well, and making threads like "Kobe's D is underrated" or whatever the hell it was. The irony in it all is that you constantly disregard the great man to man defense both Wade and Lebron play.

And Clyde was hardly in his prime then.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bernard King, Rick Barry, George Gervin and Adrian Dantley all did it a few times.

Rick Barry only averaged 30 once and he shot 46% when he averaged 30.6 ppg and he needed 27.7 FGA back during the 1970's fast paced game. He never shot 50% in the NBA, in fact his his highest shooting % in his NBA career was 46.4%.

Bernard King also only did it once and he did it while playing just 55 games. His other career highs were 28.4 and 26.3 ppg.

So you can name 3 players who did it and only Gervin and Dantley did it more than once. Gervin barely did it the second time too shooting an even 50%.



See with Iverson, even after the handchecking rule and zone rule, his numbers stayed the same. This is what I'm trying to point out. Defense in general is just as effective as it ever was.

The last couple of seasons before the handchecking rule change Iverson had been declining.

2002-2003 27.6 ppg, 5.5 apg, 41.4 FG%, 9.0 FTA
2003-2004 26.4 ppg, 6.6 apg, 38.7 FG%, 9.5 FTA

And then

2004-2005 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg, 42.4 FG%, 10.5 FTA
2005-2006 33.0 ppg, 7.4 apg, 44.7 FG%, 11.5 FTA

Look at his previous highscoring season

1999-2000 28.4 ppg, 4.7 apg, 42.1 FG%, 8.9 FTA
2000-2001 31.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 42.0 FG%, 10.1 FTA
2001-2002 31.4 ppg, 5.5 apg, 39.8 FG%, 9.8 FTA

But yeah at 30 his FG%, FTA and assists magically skyrocket while he also set a career high in points. :roll:

Loki is right, the handchecking rule change has easily added 2-4 ppg to perimeter scorers averages, particularly those who attack the basket often. Jordan in his prime could score 40 with handchecking illegal.

[lbj23clutch]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]People simply don't learn, gotta beat 'em over the head w/ this sh*t. :banghead:



Interviewer: [I]You point out that while scoring is going up, there

[DonDadda59]

...

The artful dodger returns :oldlol:

All that space to say absolutely nothing.

The reason the 80s FG was at c. 47% and 105PPG is the pace- faster paced teams get more fast break opportunities. Which is why a team like Phoenix shot close to 50% from the field and put up 110+ PPG in this era. And let's not get started on the 'most competitive era' in the 70s where the GOAT Kareem dominated. :oldlol: Anyone who doesn't know this has no business speaking matter-of-factly on anything basketball related.

But maybe you can answer this- what's the reason that the pace from '04-'06 stayed the same, but percentages and PPG went up considerably? The freedoms granted to defensive players had a strange effect on the game, no?

Plus I consider from the rise of the Bad Boy Pistons to the rule changes beginning from the mid to the late 90s to be easily the height of NBA defense. So you bringing up anything before that is irrelevant.

But go ahead, act like your above getting constantly embarrassed on an internet board. We all know how wise and erudite you are, thank you for humbling us with your presence. :bowdown:

[C-Webb4]

.. To summarize a long story, I discovered that my gf was cheating on me, and I dumped her ass immediately only to have her jump right back into the arms of the dude she was cheating with.

So... I want some photoshop pro to be able to somehow create a pic with this dude, (i'll post or send his pics) making out with a hot girl... to get back at her cheating ass.

[DonDadda59]

.. To summarize a long story, I discovered that my gf was cheating on me, and I dumped her ass immediately only to have her jump right back into the arms of the dude she was cheating with.

So... I want some photoshop pro to be able to somehow create a pic with this dude, (i'll post or send his pics) making out with a hot girl... to get back at her cheating ass.

Nothing that a .45 can't solve, no need to get so technical.

[RocketGreatness]

No he wasn't. You seem to think Kobe is the only good man to man defender in the league. I watched Wade make two game winning blocks against Detroit and the Wolves this season simply off great man to man D.

It's quite clear you're the new poster Clutchcity as well, and making threads like "Kobe's D is underrated" or whatever the hell it was. The irony in it all is that you constantly disregard the great man to man defense both Wade and Lebron play.

And Clyde was hardly in his prime then.
Great man to man? No, maybe decent. Wade is an average man to man defender, LeBron is an above average man to man defender. I don't disregard them, I'm just giving you facts. You haven't proved a lick to say Wade was the better defender than Drexler. But It's obvious you never watched him play anyways. Until, you prove it somehow, I don't see how I am wrong. Man to man defense was why he got the blocks, oh man :oldlol:

DonDadda, who was the better defender?

[DonDadda59]

DonDadda, who was the better defender?

It might be a toss up, but I'll take Clyde. But Wade did win a bunch of games this past season with his defense alone, but their D-ratings are similar(Clyde's past primes years affect this) and Clyde's Portland teams>Wade's Heat defensively, but there's a lot to factor in obviously.

Clyde- better man-to-man, filling the lane/steals
Dwade- easily better shotblocker, help defense (even though Clyde was no slouch)

[magnax1]

I think anybody who actually regularly watches basketball has noticed that the top defensive teams never play zone, or at least extremely rarely. Its just not as effective as man to man. The only zone type defense I wish i saw more of is the box and one zone against kobe and lebron types, or players having hot shooting nights. I think it could be really effective at slowing them down, maybe more than a double team would.

[andgar923]

I look at zone defense the same way I look at 'prevent' defense in football.

A. You need the right personnel to even try it.
B. You need to know 'how' to use it
C. You need to know 'when' to use it

You can't run both of them all game, because you will get beat since they leave big gaps in the middle. The prevent defense is designed to prevent long passes and gains, but they usually leave tons of openings and vulnerabilities within the 5-15 yard radius. And teams eventually loose because of it.

The zone is the same way, in which a team can get exposed and burnt very easily. And players need to know how to play the zone also, which coincidentally not many do. Its also been admitted that coaches didn't know how to properly use it, or coach against it.

But as time passed, teams looked at it as a 'gimmick' and a defense only used to give players multiple looks.... NOT their entire basis for their defensive philosophy like some would like people to believe.

Besides.... you have that entire 'no touch' rule and '5 second lane violation' which basically, renders the zone useless.... thus the branding of "Pseudo-Zone."

[Younggrease]

its not the fact that people are running a zone now that makes it different...teams are using tactics that were previously deemed illegal defenses beforee. It especially allows for teams to load up the strong side effectively. Its just a different brand of defense which caters to a different type of player then the old rules...

[amfirst]

No he wasn't. You seem to think Kobe is the only good man to man defender in the league. I watched Wade make two game winning blocks against Detroit and the Wolves this season simply off great man to man D.

It's quite clear you're the new poster Clutchcity as well, and making threads like "Kobe's D is underrated" or whatever the hell it was. The irony in it all is that you constantly disregard the great man to man defense both Wade and Lebron play.

And Clyde was hardly in his prime then.

Wow game winning block vs. a pathetic Wolves and brokedown Detrot team. haaha nothing big to brag about. Other players don't even need to play down to final minute, they just stomp on them early on and end the game.

[amfirst]

I look at zone defense the same way I look at 'prevent' defense in football.

A. You need the right personnel to even try it.
B. You need to know 'how' to use it
C. You need to know 'when' to use it

You can't run both of them all game, because you will get beat since they leave big gaps in the middle. The prevent defense is designed to prevent long passes and gains, but they usually leave tons of openings and vulnerabilities within the 5-15 yard radius. And teams eventually loose because of it.

The zone is the same way, in which a team can get exposed and burnt very easily. And players need to know how to play the zone also, which coincidentally not many do. Its also been admitted that coaches didn't know how to properly use it, or coach against it.

But as time passed, teams looked at it as a 'gimmick' and a defense only used to give players multiple looks.... NOT their entire basis for their defensive philosophy like some would like people to believe.

Besides.... you have that entire 'no touch' rule and '5 second lane violation' which basically, renders the zone useless.... thus the branding of "Pseudo-Zone."

Burnt easily, go tell that to the Celts. :lol

[andgar923]

Burnt easily, go tell that to the Celts. :lol


The Celts don't play zone.

[DonDadda59]

Burnt easily, go tell that to the Celts. :lol

The least you could've down was read the original post.

Stop posting already.

[juju151111]

Someone gets buttrape in this one. Zone can't stop the Goat.

[Showtime]

The Celts don't play zone.
Exactly. But don't tell kobe fanatics that.

[BallersTalk]

Neither do the Spurs. Coincidentally, two of the best defensive teams in the NBA.

[KingLeBronJames]

Exactly. But don't tell kobe fanatics that.
Celtics plays a semi-zone defense.

[CB4GOATPF]

In the 80's, basically every team gave up well over 100pts...So, since we aren't going to say that it was due to bad defense (which it probably wasn't) then we can attribute that to pace of play meaning MORE POSSESIONS..So those who may say Kobe, LeBron, Wade wouldn't do this and that in the 80's, give them a faster fast break pace with MORE possesion's and see the outcome....

In this era..You have Defensive 3sec Rule and Hand-checking (though its sometime's a myth, meaning the hand-check rule, because player's still somewhat get away with using their hands, so even though it's mostly myth, old-schoolers will use it to their advantage because its in the rule book:ohwell: ) player's in the old school era went against more Physical defense, so to use Zone or whatever and say this or that guy from the old-school wouldn't still be great is stupid...

Final Point..I see Great comments in this Thread from both side's....But ofcource, the opposite side's of the argument's will call their counter part's argument "stupid, trolling, exc.."...So that's when we get nowhere...

Point is...Kareem, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, LeBron and on are all great Player's who would ADJUST to any era and situation they are in...So basically, these guy's would still be their Elite selves...End/

The 80s had players with better:

- Ball IQ and Fundamentals
- Court Vision
- Passing Game
- Off the Ball Movement
- On Ball Movement
- On Ball Timing
- Shot Selection
- Passing Game

Also it was more stacked so GOOD role players and MORE THAN 2 SUPERSTARS SOMETIMES could pay at on single team (kind of like Lakers, Celtics and Magic of right now)

That also made for better scoring. If you have TOO MANY GREAT OFFENSIVELY GIFTED, SKILLED, SMART, FUNDAMENTALLY SOUND PLAYERS...They will Overcome Any D do to the elements mentione before:

[Showtime]

Celtics plays a semi-zone defense.
It's either a zone or it's not. Do you even know what a zone defense is? It's when players guard areas of the court instead of individual players. Either a team plays zone, and everybody is on the same page (because they have to be with their rotations), or they aren't. What they did do is double Kobe off the ball in certain areas of the wings, and they sent help defenders when he tried to penetrate. But he often faced a single defender out around the perimeter until he attacked the rim.

[stephanieg]

What they did do is double Kobe off the ball in certain areas of the wings

I think this may be the crux of the problem. Many people call this zone. It, along with shading, would be ruled illegal defense before the rule changes.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I think this may be the crux of the problem. Many people call this zone. It, along with shading, would be ruled illegal defense before the rule changes.
Problem being that zone was and still is impossible to officiate against in basketball. For all the match-up zones along with the constant movement, what is an illegal defense 5 seconds into the shot clock may not have been illegal 6 or 7 seconds in. If a post player were posting just outside the key with the entry passer positioned just outside the 3 point line, defense could sag briefly to deny the ball without being called illegal. Point being it kept the offense aware from the entry passer to the rotating shooters and offensive rebounders. There was indeed much more big muscle activity and psychological movement and awareness for not getting clocked with a screen off the ball. T'was as subjective a call as has ever existed in professional sports. It had to go, I just hate what they replaced it with.

[juju151111]

bump

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

PAH telling the truth zone defense> hand checking

[U got Served]

who uses zone?

[DetroitPistonFan]

who uses zone?
Not much zone but semi-zone defense.

[Samurai Swoosh]

The thing that keeps escaping so many is there is no true zone in the NBA. It's a soft, rotating zone that can only last for a few seconds at a time. Now, once can argue thats all it needs to be effective, but quite acting like teams are playing true zone defenses like 2 - 3 zone, or 3 - 2 zone. It's utterly ridiculous.

[TryToBeUnbias]

bump
why ?

[Knoe Itawl]

why ?

Because Kobe Fanatics are trash.

[juju151111]

why ?
******gers thats why.

[Desperado]

Because Jordan Fanatics are trash.





truth

[Roundball_Rock]

How come we always see comparisons of numbers before and after handchecking and not:


But the fact is allowing zone, was indeed removing illegal defenses.
When defending superstars, double teaming is a much more effective defensive move, than hand-checking.

Lots of guys bring up how scoring went up when zone was introduced. But it was the role players that made that difference, not the superstars.

In 01', 8 players averaged over 25, them being:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .420 ppg 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .402 ppg 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .572 ppg 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .464 ppg 28.5
5. Vince Carter FG% .460 ppg 27.6
6. Chris Webber FG% .481 ppg 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .457 ppg 26.8
8. Paul Pierce FG% .454 ppg 25.3

But the following season, with the rule changes, only 2 of them (AI, Pierce) increased their ppg, both of whom having lower FG%.

Here are the stats from the following season:

1. Allen Iverson FG% .398 ppg 31.4
2. Jerry Stackhouse FG% .397 ppg 21.4
3. Shaquille O'Neal FG% .579 ppg 27.2
4. Kobe Bryant FG% .469 ppg 25.2
5. Vince Carter FG% .428 ppg 24.7
6. Chris Webber FG% .495 ppg 24.5
7. Tracy McGrady FG% .451 ppg 25.6
8. Paul Pierce FG% .442 ppg 26.1

To sum it up the reflection was:

Iverson -2.2%FG, +0.3ppg
Stackhouse -0.5%FG, -8.4ppg
Shaq +0.7%FG, -1.5ppg
Kobe +0.5%FG, -3.3ppg
Vince -3.2%FG, -2.9ppg
Webber +1.8%FG, -1.5ppg
TMac -0.6%FG, -1.2ppg
Pierce -1.2%FG, +0.8ppg

And even these numbers are a little flawed, because most of these guys had better FT shooting seasons, and more 3 pointers the following year(02).

Granted great players can adjust their games to any rule changes, but thinking that hand-checking is more effective than "zone" is idiotic.
Everyone claims that now people can go to the hole much easier, while it's obvious (and inarguable), that todays players are forced to take more jumpers.


Bruce Blitz, you are only using one year before the rule change, why?

2002-2003
Points Per Game
1. Tracy McGrady-ORL 32.1
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 30.0
3. Allen Iverson-PHI 27.6
4. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 27.5
5. Paul Pierce-BOS 25.9
6. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.1

2001-2002
Points Per Game
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 31.4
2. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 27.2
3. Paul Pierce-BOS 26.1
4. Tracy McGrady-ORL 25.6
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 25.5
6. Kobe Bryant-LAL 25.2
7. Vince Carter-TOR 24.7


2000-2001
Points Per Game
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 31.1
2. Jerry Stackhouse-DET 29.8
3. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 28.7
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.5
5. Vince Carter-TOR 27.6
6. Chris Webber-SAC 27.1
7. Tracy McGrady-ORL 26.8
8. Paul Pierce-BOS 25.3
9. Antawn Jamison-GSW 24.9

Bruce Blitz, you are looking at one year and trying to make some radical conclusion. It doesn't work that way.

Scoring by the numbers you are using is pretty much the same now as it was then.


Chicken or the egg. You can subtract 2-4 ppg from all of these perimeter players' averages if they play from '88-'98.


Subtract points? What the hell kind of reasoning is this :oldlol:

Yea, Kobe/Lebron/Wade can only dream of putting up Alex English/Bernard King type of scoring production.

:roll: :roll: Don't forget adding points for 90's players so Chris Mullin would be averaging 30 ppg on 55% if he played today.

[Fatal9]

• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

From 1982 - 2000. You're telling me handchecking is more important than these restrictions on defense? Has anyone even seen a game and noticed how you couldn't be physical with handchecking at ALL (announcers would even say "there is no handchecking in this league"). The rules also made it easier to move off the ball (cutter has to follow, insert a screen, and free up for a shot...Jordan made a living off this!).

Look at this play that was illegal back then. This isn't cherry picked, what Artis Gilmore is doing just wasn't allowed and against the rules: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNsAXlNueTw

^ THIS is what KG/Duncan are referring to here (who played under both eras):



Kevin Garnett: No zone.
Tim Duncan : Yeah, the zone.
Kevin Garnett: If there was one rule I could change today, it would be the zone.
KICKS: Because it didn’t do what they thought it would do?
Kevin Garnett: I think it puts players that are really good at a disadvantage, so to speak. Everybody here gets double-teams, if not triple-teams, so we can all speak on this. But it sorta—I remember Phoenix sat somebody literally right there [in the lane].
Tracy McGrady: It makes it hard for a guy like me—
Kevin Garnett: —who penetrates.
Tim Duncan: It makes it hard for all of us.
Tracy McGrady: It’s tough on all of us, it really is. When you’re tryin’ to make a move, and you got another guy sittin’ right there on the same side just waitin’…
Kevin Garnett: Waitin’ on you!
Tracy McGrady: Just waitin’.

Players could pretend they were guarding someone, but they couldn't be in position like you're allowed nowadays and as a result they'd come too late to stop Jordan. MJ would even purposely exploit this by dribbling nonchalantly when he noticed defenders cheating, and saw there was no way he could get to the rim. You couldn't "stack" guys up play after play, you could control the position of OTHER players on the floor by overloading one side, or having a center above free throw line (so center either has to switch to someone else, double, or get whistled for illegal D if he is waiting and guarding no one). Getting doubled is much better than being shaded, it's easier to make double teams pay, while when you are shading someone, you can be in position to react to the player with the ball AND the player you should be covering. If zone rules don't make a difference, why did so many teams and players try to play them, develop strategies to disguise them at the risk of being whistled?

[Fatal9]

It seems to me fans of the Jordan era can't even understand defensive rules of their favorite era and CLEARLY don't watch games (just stick to highlights). It's difficult trying to get through to a fanbase that is this in love with a player AND this ignorant at the same time. I am debating whether I should explain in detail, how illegal defense worked, what the specific rules were and what differences exist defensively. You would need a basketball brain to understand and I doubt these clowns can understand anything other than cherrypicked highlights over hundreds of games. Funny thing is I don't think defensively the difference is much (with a slight advantage to current era), but you have this ridiculous, ignorant fanbase acting like everything from defense to competition (lol!) was toughest in very late 80s and 90s in comparison to other eras.

[juju151111]

How come we always see comparisons of numbers before and after handchecking and not:









:roll: :roll: Don't forget adding points for 90's players so Chris Mullin would be averaging 30 ppg on 55% if he played today.
Just when you homers thought it was safe to come out...


Quote:
EL SEGUNDO - Lakers guard Sasha Vujacic said the Dallas Mavericks hatched a surprise when they employed a zone defense in the second half of Sunday's game.

It caused confusion, and the overall effect was to bog down the Lakers offense.

"We hadn't seen a zone for a long time and it came out of nowhere," Vujacic said Monday. "For 60 games teams played man-to-man against us. No team played zone."

Although the Lakers eventually prevailed, Dallas chiseled away at a 14-point, third-quarter deficit and took the lead, largely because the Lakers offense went stagnant.

It particularly slowed down the Lakers' second-unit group.

"When the zone got sprung on them, they had that hesitation and ended up shooting nine 3-pointers that didn't go in," Coach Phil Jackson said. "That was a loss of focus because they lost the function of basketball, which is penetration."

With that in mind, the Lakers spent the majority of Monday's two-hour practice working on the principles of their zone offense. The focus was on the best ways to attack a zone, which include moving the basketball to make the zone shift, making sharp cuts without the ball, and maintaining proper spacing.

Jackson said he welcomes the prospect of future opponents serving the Lakers a hefty portion of more zone.

"We don't mind that," he said. "That aspect is OK. They (opponents) should look at it and say, 'We can play zone defense against them.' But it's easy to say it; it's hard to play it."

Unlike in high school and college basketball, zone defense in the NBA seldom is used. Lakers forward Lamar Odom described it as a pride thing.

"Usually when a team in the NBA plays zone it's because they have matchup problems," Odom said.

That's why the Mavericks went to it because they were being eaten alive in the low post by the Lakers' Pau Gasol, who didn't miss a field goal in 10 first-half attempts.

But Gasol's shot attempts shrank considerably in the second half, partly because the zone defense had an umbrella defense-effect on him and partly, as Jackson alluded to, the Lakers got jump-shot happy.

"The zone took us out of our rhythm,'' Kobe Bryant said. "And he (Gasol) wasn't able to get his touches."

Vujacic saw zone defenses extensively while playing European basketball and said they are used so much internationally because defense is not a priority.

"Personally, I love playing against the zone," Vujacic said. "I believe it puts teams on their heels as the last resort, when they play it."

-'Lakers revisit zone principles', OC Register
Monday, March 16, 2009

I wonder why the best defensive coaches of this decade (Brown and Celtics defensive coach say Zone is thrash???) iNTERESTING.

[andgar923]

We all know why certain people *cough... cough... MJ haters/Kobe n@thuggers* use the zone argument.

Well here's a reply that should end it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J83LyohClFI

Enjoy.

[Knoe Itawl]

Just when you homers thought it was safe to come out...


Quote:
EL SEGUNDO - Lakers guard Sasha Vujacic said the Dallas Mavericks hatched a surprise when they employed a zone defense in the second half of Sunday's game.

It caused confusion, and the overall effect was to bog down the Lakers offense.

"We hadn't seen a zone for a long time and it came out of nowhere," Vujacic said Monday. "For 60 games teams played man-to-man against us. No team played zone."

Although the Lakers eventually prevailed, Dallas chiseled away at a 14-point, third-quarter deficit and took the lead, largely because the Lakers offense went stagnant.

It particularly slowed down the Lakers' second-unit group.

"When the zone got sprung on them, they had that hesitation and ended up shooting nine 3-pointers that didn't go in," Coach Phil Jackson said. "That was a loss of focus because they lost the function of basketball, which is penetration."

With that in mind, the Lakers spent the majority of Monday's two-hour practice working on the principles of their zone offense. The focus was on the best ways to attack a zone, which include moving the basketball to make the zone shift, making sharp cuts without the ball, and maintaining proper spacing.

Jackson said he welcomes the prospect of future opponents serving the Lakers a hefty portion of more zone.

"We don't mind that," he said. "That aspect is OK. They (opponents) should look at it and say, 'We can play zone defense against them.' But it's easy to say it; it's hard to play it."

Unlike in high school and college basketball, zone defense in the NBA seldom is used. Lakers forward Lamar Odom described it as a pride thing.

"Usually when a team in the NBA plays zone it's because they have matchup problems," Odom said.

That's why the Mavericks went to it because they were being eaten alive in the low post by the Lakers' Pau Gasol, who didn't miss a field goal in 10 first-half attempts.

But Gasol's shot attempts shrank considerably in the second half, partly because the zone defense had an umbrella defense-effect on him and partly, as Jackson alluded to, the Lakers got jump-shot happy.

"The zone took us out of our rhythm,'' Kobe Bryant said. "And he (Gasol) wasn't able to get his touches."

Vujacic saw zone defenses extensively while playing European basketball and said they are used so much internationally because defense is not a priority.

"Personally, I love playing against the zone," Vujacic said. "I believe it puts teams on their heels as the last resort, when they play it."

-'Lakers revisit zone principles', OC Register
Monday, March 16, 2009

I wonder why the best defensive coaches of this decade (Brown and Celtics defensive coach say Zone is thrash???) iNTERESTING.

:roll:

[Fatal9]

We all know why certain people *cough... cough... MJ haters/Kobe n@thuggers* use the zone argument.

Well here's a reply that should end it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J83LyohClFI

Enjoy.
Cool video bro. This just ends it. Jordan still had his skills in tact after a 3 year break and exploded for a game against a bad team...I'm telling you, this ends it all. Not like other players haven't had huge games at the end of their careers. Bird in his last season, in a game he wasn't going to play, dealing with all sorts of injuries had 49/14/12 vs. the toughest defensive team Jordan faced in the first threepeat finals. No one is saying Jordan would suck nowadays, or would even be any worse as a player (though statistically we would see a drop in FG% to around 49-50% I'd say).

[andgar923]

Cool video bro. This just ends it. Jordan still had his skills in tact after a 3 year break and exploded for a game against a bad team...I'm telling you, this ends it all. Not like other players haven't had huge games at the end of their careers. Bird in his last season, in a game he wasn't going to play, dealing with all sorts of injuries had 49/14/12 vs. the toughest defensive team Jordan faced in the first threepeat finals. No one is saying Jordan would suck nowadays, or would even be any worse as a player (though statistically we would see a drop in FG% to around 49-50% I'd say).

Lets be real here.

You don't care about Bird or anybody else.

The only reason people like you even make the 'zone' argument, is to prop up Kobe and make excuses for his stats compared to MJ's.

Don't try to spin this any other way, because we all know the truth here.

What this vid showed, was MJ at an old age getting what he wanted vs the modern-sophisticated-defense-taller-more athletic players, past his prime.

And just to clarify some things for you.... the Hornets weren't a bad team that season. They finished 2nd in the Central Division and were ranked the 10th defensive team in the league.

Now.... do we need to provide the full stats for those two seasons and compare them to other players?

[TheTruthTeller]

:roll:

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Zone = more jumpshots. Machine = jumpshooter. Machine like Zone.

[Fatal9]

Lets be real here.

You don't care about Bird or anybody else.

The only reason people like you even make the 'zone' argument, is to prop up Kobe and make excuses for his stats compared to MJ's.
LOL at me not "caring" about Bird or anyone else. Right, I have been collecting Bird games for YEARS and I'm not even a fan....right, and me liking Bird (who I've never argued was a better player than Jordan at his peak) is somehow a secret conspiracy to prop up Kobe. :roll:

[6thManOfTheYear]

Cool video bro. This just ends it. Jordan still had his skills in tact after a 3 year break and exploded for a game against a bad team...I'm telling you, this ends it all. Not like other players haven't had huge games at the end of their careers. Bird in his last season, in a game he wasn't going to play, dealing with all sorts of injuries had 49/14/12 vs. the toughest defensive team Jordan faced in the first threepeat finals. No one is saying Jordan would suck nowadays, or would even be any worse as a player (though statistically we would see a drop in FG% to around 49-50% I'd say).

yall can have yall little argument but to clear something up.

that hornets team was not a bad team.

they finished the season 44-38 and lost in the 2nd round to the new jersey nets that went on to the nba finals :)

[Fatal9]

yall can have yall little argument but to clear something up.

that hornets team was not a bad team.

they finished the season 44-38 and lost in the 2nd round to the new jersey nets that went on to the nba finals :)
* average team. sorry those 00s Hornet teams never struck me as anything special, especially when the playoffs rolled around. this is beside the point really...

[andgar923]

It makes perfect sense if you think about it. Zone = more jumpshots. Machine = jumpshooter. Machine like Zone.

Not really accurate.

Part of the reason I posted that vid, was to prove that the zone doesn't make you a 3 point shooter, as many make it out to be. MJ is a master of moving without the ball and creating his shot from all over the court and he was doing that in the vid.

And this was an old MJ with nowhere near the same athletic abilities.

Fact is, the zone is a swiss cheese like defense, with plenty of weak spots that can be easily exploited.

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K-qGWkiKvQ MJ vs knicks 92(forced him into jumpers. This vid clearly shows phyical and double triple teams.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo29V0DS9k

LOL Fatal fails again

[TheTruthTeller]

Not really accurate.

Part of the reason I posted that vid, was to prove that the zone doesn't make you a 3 point shooter, as many make it out to be. MJ is a master of moving without the ball and creating his shot from all over the court and he was doing that in the vid.

And this was an old MJ with nowhere near the same athletic abilities.

Fact is, the zone is a swiss cheese like defense, with plenty of weak spots that can be easily exploited.

Sure, it doesn't make you a three point shooter, but it is easier to get off a 3 point jumpshot then it is to post up or score in the paint against a zone. Many teams settle for the jumpshot against the zone(not a good thing) as Jackson alluded to:



"When the zone got sprung on them, they had that hesitation and ended up shooting nine 3-pointers that didn't go in," Coach Phil Jackson said. "That was a loss of focus because they lost the function of basketball, which is penetration."



I'm not sure what you mean about the MJ video? Are you saying Hornets are playing zone against him? They seemed to be playing man-to-man in the 51point MJ game, so I'm not not sure what you mean. It was a great game by Jordan though, one of the few i got to see live.

[andgar923]

Sure, it doesn't make you a three point shooter, but it is easier to get off a 3 point jumpshot then it is to post up or score in the paint against a zone. Many teams settle for the jumpshot against the zone(not a good thing) as Jackson alluded to:




I'm not sure what you mean about the MJ video? Are you saying Hornets are playing zone against him and They seemed to be playing man-to-man in the 51point MJ game, so I'm not not sure what you mean. It was a great game by Jordan though, one of the few i got to see live.

Another reason why the vid was posted.... the zone wasn't played all the time. I agree, in that vid MJ was getting isos, something that Kobe fans say was nearly impossible during this era.... again... their argument debunked in that vid.

There's other vids of that game (that was the first I got), that show how some of the plays develop, not just the end results.... and we see MJ beating zones. At times, he misses the shot, but that's not the point, the point is he wasn't settling and he was penetrating the defense creating better shots for himself.

Did this happen 100% time?

Of course not... but he was till able to beat the zone many times down the court.

If we even wanna call what they play a 'true' zone.

[U got Served]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk

[Fatal9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOt5lavQIpk
you realize he is referring to a fullcourt press? and you were allowed to zone before half court even back then. but then again look at the dolt whose video you quoted and it's no surprise there is no mention of that (and you can't even comment as he only allows "approved" comments :oldlol:). and why do people think that to play zone (and other defensive schemes after rule changes) means that all five guys have to be set up playing something like a 1-2-2 or 1-3-1 etc? it's not that black and white. what you see is a mixture of man to man defense and zone, with past restrictions on the position of a defensive player on the court eliminated.