Did Vince Carter have more potential then kobe?

[unknown101]

Did he?


6'6 230
Long arms with big hands
Extreme vertical
Unreal Body control
Superb coordination


What if he had kobe's work ethic?

[lilgodfather1]

VC may have been one of the greatest players of all time if he simply had work ethic.

[WADE MONEY]

he also had an arguably better long range jumper

[arkain]

Yeah for sure, unfortunately he didn't have his heart and killer instinct.

[iDunk]

Yes.

[LA_Showtime]

People are mistaking work ethic for mentality... to say that Vince Carter lacked dedication is ridiculous.

[ZHAKIDD532]

Kobe had a lot of advantages VC didn't. 2 things in particular: Shaquille O'Neal, and Phil Jackson.

[lakerfreak]

People are mistaking work ethic for mentality... to say that Vince Carter lacked dedication is ridiculous.

I agree.

He wanted to win badly. but he didn't improve much. He was still a very good player regardless.

[23ajay]

yes

[Lebron23Jordan]

Kobe bryant was always better then Vince

[i seen hippos]

One thing I always saw that not many people mention is that Kobe had much/has much better handles than Carter.

I truly believe it prevented him from taking people to the rim one on one as much as people demanded him too. His athleticism helped, but if he had the handles of Kobe, he would have been unstoppable.

[craiye]

Kobe bryant was always better then Vince

Wow, great work not answering the question. Plus, you're wrong.

If you're looking year by year Vince was the better player in the 99-00 season. I know that's being nit-picky, but just sayin' - Kobe hasn't always been better than Vince. It was debatable up until about 01-02, that's when Kobe truly leap frogged him and put Vince out of the discussion IMO.

Vince was also much better as a rookie and second year player, but that has more to do with Kobe coming straight from high school. Can't really expect an 18 year old to come out like a 22 year old.

Anyways, to answer the question - YES I think Vince had more potential than Kobe. Kobe maximized his potential. Hell, he may have surpassed it. I'm not sure anyone thought he'd have a chance to go down as a top 10 player of all time like he may well do now when he was drafted. Vince? It was clear he had potential to be an all time great. He never reached it though.

[BallersTalk]

Much much more potential. The difference was he didn't have the same mentality as Kobe. He didn't have that same drive. Kobe set a pretty unattainable goal for himself (to be better than Jordan) and I think having that in the back of his mind pushed him harder.

[BallersTalk]

OMGWTFOMGWTFOMGWTFOMWgWTFOMWGOWMRTOMWOEMTWOTMF

I'm pissed off!

[KenneBell]

One thing I always saw that not many people mention is that Kobe had much/has much better handles than Carter.

I truly believe it prevented him from taking people to the rim one on one as much as people demanded him too. His athleticism helped, but if he had the handles of Kobe, he would have been unstoppable.
That's debatable. Kobe has some very good ball-handling skills but I don't think he necessarily needed them to get to the basket. That's just first step and explosion. VC had that.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

Another one of those IF/BUT/HOW/MAYBE threads but to answer your question, yes.
How about IF Kobe had Lebron's Body?!?Or the other way around??

[DKLaker]

Did he?


6'6 230
Long arms with big hands
Extreme vertical
Unreal Body control
Superb coordination


What if he had kobe's work ethic?

What if Shaq had Kobe's work ethic.....OMG!!!!!! They'd have to ban him from the NBA!!!!!

[jlitt]

One thing I always saw that not many people mention is that Kobe had much/has much better handles than Carter.

I truly believe it prevented him from taking people to the rim one on one as much as people demanded him too. His athleticism helped, but if he had the handles of Kobe, he would have been unstoppable.


You are dead on with this assessment. One thing that truly separates Kobe and Michael from other athletic and talented perimeter players is their ball handling ability. If you look at igoudala you see the same t hing. A talented wing player whose lack of ball handling limits his ability to drive. If vince had this he would have been much better, but kobe had the total package. mental part, physical, defense offense the whole game.

[VeeCee15]

VC is a MUCH MUCH MUCH more physically gifted athlete than Kobe Bryant.

Much more explosive, much higher vertical, much better first step, much
bigger hands.

That's why when VC was first in the league...everyone started to HYPE VC
and move away from Kobe (even though VC was in a market no one cared about..Toronto).
Kobe just wasn't spectacular relatively speaking no matter how much LA and LA fans hyped him.

[eliteballer]

LOL...VC was like a slug compared to Kobe. Kobe always had a couple of steps on him terms of speed. Better body control, coordination, agility. As comparable ages Kobe was always better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGxX80NHuRs&fmt=35

[VeeCee15]

Kobe was never even an ELITE athlete in the league in his prime.

Better speed and body control? VC is the master of body control see his 360 layups in traffic?

VC was an ELITE once in a generation athlete..Kobe is above average.

[imdaman99]

Kobe was never even an ELITE athlete in the league in his prime.

Better speed and body control? VC is the master of body control see his 360 layups in traffic?

VC was an ELITE once in a generation athlete..Kobe is above average.
Do you like repeating yourself?

Did VC have more potential? Maybe. But we'll never know because VC never amounted to anything more than a dunk machine.

[wang4three]

No, he didn't.

[VCMVP1551]

LOL...VC was like a slug compared to Kobe. Kobe always had a couple of steps on him terms of speed. Better body control, coordination, agility. As comparable ages Kobe was always better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGxX80NHuRs&fmt=35

Vince and Kobe were pretty close as players from about 1999-2002.

[plat1numX]

VC still has time to prove himself now that he is on a contender.

[SLY]

Kobe bryant was always better then Vince
The question was not who is better dumb sh!t !!!!

[majorhops]

Yeah he did.
Now put Kobe in VCs body with big hands & long arms?
O lawd.

[andgar923]

Wow, great work not answering the question. Plus, you're wrong.

If you're looking year by year Vince was the better player in the 99-00 season. I know that's being nit-picky, but just sayin' - Kobe hasn't always been better than Vince. It was debatable up until about 01-02, that's when Kobe truly leap frogged him and put Vince out of the discussion IMO.

Vince was also much better as a rookie and second year player, but that has more to do with Kobe coming straight from high school. Can't really expect an 18 year old to come out like a 22 year old.

Anyways, to answer the question - YES I think Vince had more potential than Kobe. Kobe maximized his potential. Hell, he may have surpassed it. I'm not sure anyone thought he'd have a chance to go down as a top 10 player of all time like he may well do now when he was drafted. Vince? It was clear he had potential to be an all time great. He never reached it though.

I remember an interview VC did with Arnie Spagnier and VC said he was better than Kobe.

Alot of players back then thought they were better than Kobe, and used to say Kobe was successful because he had Shaq, Phil and the Triangle.

And YES... to echo the common sentiment, VC had more potential. Like many mentioned, he lacked the will and drive to be the greatest. Most players are content at being all stars, Kobe wanted to be better than MJ. That is his strength and weakness, but eventually what made him better than his peers.

And I think players like Bron and Wade are smart enough to learn from the other player's mistakes including Kobe's. So their paving their own road to greatness.

[indiefan23]

Much much more potential. The difference was he didn't have the same mentality as Kobe. He didn't have that same drive. Kobe set a pretty unattainable goal for himself (to be better than Jordan) and I think having that in the back of his mind pushed him harder.

Ya know, I'm not sure about that. Something no one is mentioning here is that Kobe started off in the NBA as a great cuz he was young, but not that fantastic player. His shot selection was weak and he had trouble taking over games.

Then you take Vince. He got to the NBA and was great right away. The Pro game came so much easier to Vince then it did to Kobe. People always talk about intangibles like 'drive' and 'work ethic' but never talk about why those things develop. Kobe had to get good. Vince was good. I think its 'much' harder to develop a strong work ethic when you never truly have to work to be elite. The same can be said for Shaq. He realized maybe 75% of his potential because at 75% he was still one of the most dominant players in the game.

Challenge produces effort. Its why getting cut from his HS basketball team was the turning point in the GOAT's hoop career. Both Vince and Shaq were way too good to be challenged.

And just for the record, if Vince played with either of the Shaq/Pau super teams that Kobe did, do you really think so many people would be so down on Vince? People need to stop using titles to evaluate players. The best bigs that Vince has 'ever' played with were the rookie Chris Bosh, the rookie Brook Lopez, the injured past prime Antonio Davis and the injured Nenad Cristic. That's got more to do with him not winning a title and being hyped up then his talent, drive or anything else.

[D-Rose]

Ya know, I'm not sure about that. Something no one is mentioning here is that Kobe started off in the NBA as a great cuz he was young, but not that fantastic player. His shot selection was weak and he had trouble taking over games.

Then you take Vince. He got to the NBA and was great right away. The Pro game came so much easier to Vince then it did to Kobe. People always talk about intangibles like 'drive' and 'work ethic' but never talk about why those things develop. Kobe had to get good. Vince was good. I think its 'much' harder to develop a strong work ethic when you never truly have to work to be elite. The same can be said for Shaq. He realized maybe 75% of his potential because at 75% he was still one of the most dominant players in the game.

Challenge produces effort. Its why getting cut from his HS basketball team was the turning point in the GOAT's hoop career. Both Vince and Shaq were way too good to be challenged.

And just for the record, if Vince played with either of the Shaq/Pau super teams that Kobe did, do you really think so many people would be so down on Vince? People need to stop using titles to evaluate players. The best bigs that Vince has 'ever' played with were the rookie Chris Bosh, the rookie Brook Lopez, the injured past prime Antonio Davis and the injured Nenad Cristic. That's got more to do with him not winning a title and being hyped up then his talent, drive or anything else.

I agree he's never been on teams as good as Kobe's teams, until perhaps now.

Though, if you put Kobe on 05'-07' Nets with Kidd and Jefferson, that's more than 2nd round.

[eliteballer]

The ONLY reason VC was even mentioned in the same breath as Kobe was because he was a couple of years older...even Jordan said Kobe was better in those times because he PLAYED DEFENSE.

VC doesn't even have bigger hops, he has bigger hands and longer arms, and those long arms create an illusion but he DOES NOT consistently get his head higher than Kobe did/does. LOOK AT HIGH HIS HEAD GETS. VC never had the lateral quickness, coordination, or agility to make a lot of the BASKETBALL moves Kobe does on the floor either. He was also always a couple of steps slower in straight line speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGxX80NHuRs&fmt=35

[T-bomb 25]

Kobe bryant was always better then VinceExactly I really dont even know why this is a topic.:roll:

[T-bomb 25]

You are dead on with this assessment. One thing that truly separates Kobe and Michael from other athletic and talented perimeter players is their ball handling ability. If you look at igoudala you see the same t hing. A talented wing player whose lack of ball handling limits his ability to drive. If vince had this he would have been much better, but kobe had the total package. mental part, physical, defense offense the whole game.Except for Penny who had better handles than both of them and more athlethic abillity.

[magic chiongson]

Did Vince Carter have more potential then kobe?

quite possibly yes

[VeeCee15]

Kobe has the WEAKEST vertical I have seen in a player compared to MJ.

Carter can get head to RIM on dunks..kobe can get MID MESH at best.

So LONG arms and big hands Was the REASON VC could leapfrot 7'2 french guy in game? Grow a brain a flaming *** and also go watch some videos.

Kobe's vertical is AT BEST 35 inches on a run.

VC gets WAY higher than Kobe on his jumps. Only reason KOBE may seem to get NEAR rim level is because of camera angle.
In his earlier days and later on...Kobe bricked SO MANY simple dunks because he could not get high enough.

I do not think u know shiiit about dunking and jumping EliteBaller. A player at Kobes height can jump 20 inches and dunk basically it's not hard.
On most of kobes dunks..he's jumping around 32 inches to dunk the ball.

[D-Rose]

Kobe is at 38 not 35

http://vertcoach.com/content/view/33/47/

[VeeCee15]

VC has the best body control of any player i've seen 6'6 and over..most people would agree except for a flaming f@ggot fuker such as eliteballer.

We already know u are retarded when you think Kobe can jump as high as VC when it is not even close. KOBE is not a FREAK OF NATURE athlete like VC, he is a great athlete, but he's not a freak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4oYKsQlELs&feature=PlayList&p=9F63CB072C5BCAB9&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

Kobe can never jump that high..and that's not even VCs best jump. HEAD at rim FOR REAL no camera angle BS.


And VINCE is at 43 so that settles it.

Current Kobe is at like 33 inches vert.

[Richie2k6]

He was a more athletic Kobe, with college experience. I'd say he had more potential.

[T-bomb 25]

He was a more athletic Kobe, with college experience. I'd say he had more potential.I disagree sometimes he looks very awkward,he can jump higher than Kobe,but thats it he's nowhere near Kobe,as a matte fact its wing players thats way better than him in all eras,he's absolutely horrible on defense,this is a rediculous comparison.

[andgar923]

LOL @ Kobe jumping higher than VC.

:roll: :applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Even Vince getting his head at rim level would require him to have a vertical of 41 inches because he's no more than 6'7" in shoes. If he can get his head at rim level while doing a windmill dunk then I'm sure that he could get a bit higher if he was jumping as high as he could. Meaning that the 43" vert for Vince is probably correct. There's no way Kobe ever had a vertical near 43 inches.

[RocketGreatness]

Yes he did, and that is exactly why VC is known to be a wasted talent like Rasheed Wallace. All said and done, Vince Carter had the potential to be better than Michael Jordan and I do not recall Kobe having that type of potential.

Vince has just stopped caring and that is why he is considered a waste of talent. If he played with the same type of motivation, desire and hunger that Michael Jordan played with, then he could have been the GOAT.

[IInvented]

Vince Carter had more potential than Michael Jordan.. so you decide..

[T-bomb 25]

Yes he did, and that is exactly why VC is known to be a wasted talent like Rasheed Wallace. All said and done, Vince Carter had the potential to be better than Michael Jordan and I do not recall Kobe having that type of potential.

Vince has just stopped caring and that is why he is considered a waste of talent. If he played with the same type of motivation, desire and hunger that Michael Jordan played with, then he could have been the GOAT.You must be joking right? this is getting funnier the longer this thread lasts.:roll:

[Tha Catalyst]

Yes he did, and that is exactly why VC is known to be a wasted talent like Rasheed Wallace. All said and done, Vince Carter had the potential to be better than Michael Jordan and I do not recall Kobe having that type of potential.

Vince has just stopped caring and that is why he is considered a waste of talent. If he played with the same type of motivation, desire and hunger that Michael Jordan played with, then he could have been the GOAT.
I don't understand why everyone is seemingly confusing athleticism with potential. It is NOT as simple as that. Kobe has better coordination, is quicker, more agile and clearly has better defensive instincts than Carter, something that is almost unrelated to dedication although can slightly be improved through practice. I don't see how anyone can anrgue with any of those points. Carter obviously has kobe trumped in vertical, body control, and arguably long range shot but kobe excelled in more areas than carter. Hell, i'll probably admit that carter could have been just as good on offense but there is no way in the world carter could have been tha defender kobe was, particularly during the championship years. Therefore, no, carter could have never been the player kobe has been and you are delussional, no offense, if you believe he could have been the GOAT.

[Kjeldar]

i guess it does depend on what you mean by potential, it seems everyone has a different way to see it.

One thing is certain, vc stopped going up a long time up. he even went down. you cant say that about bryant.

both were great players, only one is now.

(vc is still above the average nba 2 guard, though)

[T-bomb 25]

I don't understand why everyone is seemingly confusing athleticism with potential. It is NOT as simple as that. Kobe has better coordination, is quicker, more agile and clearly has better defensive instincts than Carter, something that is almost unrelated to dedication although can slightly be improved through practice. I don't see how anyone can anrgue with any of those points. Carter obviously has kobe trumped in vertical, body control, and arguably long range shot but kobe excelled in more areas than carter. Hell, i'll probably admit that carter could have been just as good on offense but there is no way in the world carter could have been tha defender kobe was, particularly during the championship years. Therefore, no, carter could have never been the player kobe has been and you are delussional, no offense, if you believe he could have been the GOAT.His defense cancels out his offense against a top 2 guard,my advice for the Magic they should break their neck to sign Hedo back "Half Man/Half Defense wont be enough without Hedo they wont make it to Kobe and company.

[T-bomb 25]

i guess it does depend on what you mean by potential, it seems everyone has a different way to see it.

One thing is certain, vc stopped going up a long time up. he even went down. you cant say that about bryant.

both were great players, only one is now.

(vc is still above the average nba 2 guard, though)Offensively only.

[Allstar24]

It doesn't matter...Kobe will always be remembered as a winner, a word that cannot be associated with Vince.

[T-bomb 25]

It doesn't matter...Kobe will always be remembered as a winner, a word that cannot be associated with Vince.Well if they resign Hedo and Dwight works on a few post moves this summer and his FT shooting,he may have that chance to erase that.

[indiefan23]

I agree he's never been on teams as good as Kobe's teams, until perhaps now.

Though, if you put Kobe on 05'-07' Nets with Kidd and Jefferson, that's more than 2nd round.

Do you really believe that? They went to war with a pretty crappy and hurt nenad Cristic and a 40 year old Clif Robinson as their two best bigs. Unless you count Josh Boone and Jason Collins, which I don't. Do they beat Miami who should have made the finals, Miami champs, Cleveland who made the finals? Without a great center Kobe missed the playoffs and never got out of the first round. I see 0 reason to think he's going to beat those teams with Nenad Cristic who wasn't even around for the playoffs half the time.

[indiefan23]

It doesn't matter...Kobe will always be remembered as a winner, a word that cannot be associated with Vince.

Umm... I remember Kobe doing plenty of losing. Not just losing, but being dominated out of the playoffs to the point that he just quits. Certainly more times then he's gone out fighting and/or won put together. A guy like Jordan will be remembered for winning. Kobe will be remebmered as a guy who won behind the best player of his generation, Shaq, and got a ring at the end of his career on a stacked team. Sorry to say, once the hype dies does, that's going to be Kobe's legacy. Its attached to Shaq. He made that decision when he signed on to be Shaq's #2 in 99. It was his choice and its how it will go down.

[CantStop]

Umm... I remember Kobe doing plenty of losing. Not just losing, but being dominated out of the playoffs to the point that he just quits. Certainly more times then he's gone out fighting and/or won put together. A guy like Jordan will be remembered for winning. Kobe will be remebmered as a guy who won behind the best player of his generation, Shaq, and got a ring at the end of his career on a stacked team. Sorry to say, once the hype dies does, that's going to be Kobe's legacy. Its attached to Shaq. He made that decision when he signed on to be Shaq's #2 in 99. It was his choice and its how it will go down.

See. Kobe can't win with haters. He's either won behind Shaq or won with a stacked team. Hey dufus, the 00-02 teams were one of the most stacked teams in HISTORY. How is the age of 30 being the end of your career again? :oldlol:

Just because you want it to go down that way doesn't mean it's going to go down that way. In fact, it won't go down that way. You're just retarded. That's what I attach you with. Sorry, that's what you signed up for when you posted that garbage.



Without a great center Kobe missed the playoffs and never got out of the first round. I see 0 reason to think he's going to beat those teams with Nenad Cristic who wasn't even around for the playoffs half the time.

Without a great SF, Jordan NEVER made the playoffs. I can play stupid too. Kobe winning a ring got you heated!

[NotYetGreat]

Honestly, I'd have to say yes. I don't think people expected all this from Kobe, but they would've from Vince. Sure, he was a scoring machine, but no one was able to see how dominant he would've been on a higher scale, which is college. Not saying that Kobe, if he went to college, would not have been the same kid he was in high school, but college is close enough to a pro rank environment/game feel and I think people would've been more aware of Kobe if he went on to college. Vince on the other hand, was in UNC, am I right? Now, I wasn't old enough to even know what a basketball was when he was in college, but it sure damn looked like he was going to be a very successful player when he moved onto the pro league. Vince was, I guess, kind of a prototypical "Do It All" player, and people were already calling him the heir to a certain "Airness'" league, an observation we could now say was overly premature, but I still think Vince has more potential than Kobe. Only thing he really lacked was work ethic, I suppose.

[LA_Showtime]

Umm... I remember Kobe doing plenty of losing. Not just losing, but being dominated out of the playoffs to the point that he just quits. Certainly more times then he's gone out fighting and/or won put together. A guy like Jordan will be remembered for winning. Kobe will be remebmered as a guy who won behind the best player of his generation, Shaq, and got a ring at the end of his career on a stacked team. Sorry to say, once the hype dies does, that's going to be Kobe's legacy. Its attached to Shaq. He made that decision when he signed on to be Shaq's #2 in 99. It was his choice and its how it will go down.

Wow... even people like Bruceblitz and OldschoolBBall would disagree with this.:oldlol:

[T-bomb 25]

Umm... I remember Kobe doing plenty of losing. Not just losing, but being dominated out of the playoffs to the point that he just quits. Certainly more times then he's gone out fighting and/or won put together. A guy like Jordan will be remembered for winning. Kobe will be remebmered as a guy who won behind the best player of his generation, Shaq, and got a ring at the end of his career on a stacked team. Sorry to say, once the hype dies does, that's going to be Kobe's legacy. Its attached to Shaq. He made that decision when he signed on to be Shaq's #2 in 99. It was his choice and its how it will go down.Neither is the dominant player of this era,its Tim Duncan.

[T-bomb 25]

Honestly, I'd have to say yes. I don't think people expected all this from Kobe, but they would've from Vince. Sure, he was a scoring machine, but no one was able to see how dominant he would've been on a higher scale, which is college. Not saying that Kobe, if he went to college, would not have been the same kid he was in high school, but college is close enough to a pro rank environment/game feel and I think people would've been more aware of Kobe if he went on to college. Vince on the other hand, was in UNC, am I right? Now, I wasn't old enough to even know what a basketball was when he was in college, but it sure damn looked like he was going to be a very successful player when he moved onto the pro league. Vince was, I guess, kind of a prototypical "Do It All" player, and people were already calling him the heir to a certain "Airness'" league, an observation we could now say was overly premature, but I still think Vince has more potential than Kobe. Only thing he really lacked was work ethic, I suppose.Since when was he do it all player?Do it all players do it all Vince doesent do it all,all he does is shoot.

[Juges8932]

Yes. Not massive amounts more like some people are saying, but he did.

[LA_Showtime]

I don't know if Vince Carter ever had more potential than Kobe, but he definitely had more hype coming out of college.

[T-bomb 25]

I don't know if Vince Carter ever had more potential than Kobe, but he definitely had more hype coming out of college.Yeah if you consider dunking more potential then i guess so.lol

[Skyscraper]

Kobe had a lot of advantages VC didn't. 2 things in particular: Shaquille O'Neal, and Phil Jackson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ieYBMcT26E

[jjayfive]

on natural ability and talent....
tmac>vince>bryant

[Allstar24]

Umm... I remember Kobe doing plenty of losing. Not just losing, but being dominated out of the playoffs to the point that he just quits. Certainly more times then he's gone out fighting and/or won put together. A guy like Jordan will be remembered for winning. Kobe will be remebmered as a guy who won behind the best player of his generation, Shaq, and got a ring at the end of his career on a stacked team. Sorry to say, once the hype dies does, that's going to be Kobe's legacy. Its attached to Shaq. He made that decision when he signed on to be Shaq's #2 in 99. It was his choice and its how it will go down.
Maybe in your world :oldlol: The majority of NBA fans placed him in their top 10 or top 15 lists already after he won the title this year...and his career is far from over. In fact, his legacy will probably be much greater than it should be. Sorry to disappoint you but that is reality.

[indiefan23]

See. Kobe can't win with haters. He's either won behind Shaq or won with a stacked team.


Hey dufus, the 00-02 teams were one of the most stacked teams in HISTORY. How is the age of 30 being the end of your career again? :oldlol:

Just because you want it to go down that way doesn't mean it's going to go down that way. In fact, it won't go down that way. You're just retarded. That's what I attach you with. Sorry, that's what you signed up for when you posted that garbage.

Without a great SF, Jordan NEVER made the playoffs. I can play stupid too. Kobe winning a ring got you heated!

I'm cool with his ring. Has he won any other way? He's also lost as the most stacked team in the league multiple times as well. Kobe 'did' sign with LA to win titles with Shaq. He could have had a team built around him if he wanted maybe but he still wasn't good enough so he took the title route. You can say that about Jordan if you want, but its clearly not true as "Kobe has only won on super stacked teams, and lost on them just as much as he's won" is a 'fact'.

[indiefan23]

Maybe in your world :oldlol: The majority of NBA fans placed him in their top 10 or top 15 lists already after he won the title this year...and his career is far from over. In fact, his legacy will probably be much greater than it should be. Sorry to disappoint you but that is reality.

Menh, that's hype. Its 'always' going to be Shaq and Kobe, always. Kobe will always be seen as the lesser player. Kobe helped his rep with his ring, but he's just not going to eclipse Shaq, at all. The only reason it bugs you and Kobe is because you know it's true. You wanted perceptions, right or wrong, Kobe is that guy who can only win when he's on the most overbearingly most talented team. If the competition is close or challenges him, he folds and loses. Give me an example in the playoffs where this didn't happen... it can't be done. Its fact. I'm not a Kobe fan, but its not hate to state a fact.

[amfirst]

Kobe is a smarter player and more. Vince only had better athleticism on Kobe, but so does many other players in the NBA.

[amfirst]

I'm cool with his ring. Has he won any other way? He's also lost as the most stacked team in the league multiple times as well. Kobe 'did' sign with LA to win titles with Shaq. He could have had a team built around him if he wanted maybe but he still wasn't good enough so he took the title route. You can say that about Jordan if you want, but its clearly not true as "Kobe has only won on super stacked teams, and lost on them just as much as he's won" is a 'fact'.


And the bulls wasn't? What about the Celts? Use common sense. Name a player who won on a ****ty team? Ish is full of crack heads...

[Phong]

LOL

A topic about VC's potential has turned into another "indiefan23: kobe-is-overrated-cant-win-without-Shaq-and-destroys-his-teammates-potential" topic.

Yeah we get it, other teams won championships with crappy line-ups. Look at the Celtics last year, bunch of total scrubs who won thanks to their camaraderie and chemistry.

Kobe is an impostor. He plays with 10+ superstars who all had huge numbers in the play-offs; all scoring 20+ a game and carrying that Bryant loser on their back.

No no. It's not hate. It's facts. :ohwell:

[Allstar24]

Menh, that's hype. Its 'always' going to be Shaq and Kobe, always. Kobe will always be seen as the lesser player. Kobe helped his rep with his ring, but he's just not going to eclipse Shaq, at all. The only reason it bugs you and Kobe is because you know it's true. You wanted perceptions, right or wrong, Kobe is that guy who can only win when he's on the most overbearingly most talented team. If the competition is close or challenges him, he folds and loses. Give me an example in the playoffs where this didn't happen... it can't be done. Its fact. I'm not a Kobe fan, but its not hate to state a fact.
Uh...I have no reason to be upset. If anything, you're the one getting worked up here. Kobe got rid of the perception that he can't win without Shaq, he won his long-awaited Finals MVP and title as the leader, he's in a position to win multiple titles in the following years...trust me, nothing "bugs" Kobe anymore :oldlol: I never thought he had to win one without Shaq to prove his legacy in the first place but since he did it anyway, I'm glad because he is now a proven winner and nobody can say sh*t about him. Kobe = winner. Vince= quitter. That's how they will be remembered. End of discussion.

[White Chocolate]

Yes. He was more athletic and an even better long range shooter. If only VC gave a damn.

[gxL]

lol i cant believe this is even a debate. vc has one of the greatest potential of all time. just simply lacked the desire and work ethic

[ShaqAttack3234]

Neither is the dominant player of this era,its Tim Duncan.

Shaq>Tim Duncan

[Phong]

In the end people will remember what is and not what could have been.

It's cool to have potential but if nothing is achieved with it... :ohwell:

[indiefan23]

And the bulls wasn't? What about the Celts? Use common sense. Name a player who won on a ****ty team? Ish is full of crack heads...

Not the best team in the league. The 98 bulls wern't the best team in the league. The 93 bulls were not either. They were starting a 36 year old Bill Cartwright at center. I agree about ISH, but you're one of the people who just doesn't read.

[indiefan23]

Uh...I have no reason to be upset. If anything, you're the one getting worked up here. Kobe got rid of the perception that he can't win without Shaq, he won his long-awaited Finals MVP and title as the leader, he's in a position to win multiple titles in the following years...trust me, nothing "bugs" Kobe anymore :oldlol: I never thought he had to win one without Shaq to prove his legacy in the first place but since he did it anyway, I'm glad because he is now a proven winner and nobody can say sh*t about him. Kobe = winner. Vince= quitter. That's how they will be remembered. End of discussion.

Heh. :) Kobe got rid of the perception he can't win without Shaq by winning with another franchise center. Sure Kobe won, but if Vince played on the best teams in the league for half of his career instead of none of his career, well, he'd have rings too and plenty of them. Kobe will always be Shaq's second fiddle. Its just how it is. He spent his entire career either winning with shaq or trying to prove himself without Shaq. Shaq was an old broken down man 'n Kobe's career, at 30, was still Shaq related. Thats 5 years after the guy left his team. 5 years after.

[VeeCee15]

Tmac never had ANY athletic advantage over VC.

The reason TMAC was third fiddle to VC in Toronto is because Butch Carter (then Coach of the raptors) gave the reigns to VC because of his superior athleticism. It has been SAID and confirmed over and over that Tmac was ONLY superior athletically to VC in one of the tests done in pre-draft work outs.
On all other tests, VC destroyed every previous pre-draft workout of any player including Tmac, Kobe etc. The guy was an athletic freak that was never seen before.

[D-Rose]

Heh. :) Kobe got rid of the perception he can't win without Shaq by winning with another franchise center. Sure Kobe won, but if Vince played on the best teams in the league for half of his career instead of none of his career, well, he'd have rings too and plenty of them. Kobe will always be Shaq's second fiddle. Its just how it is. He spent his entire career either winning with shaq or trying to prove himself without Shaq. Shaq was an old broken down man 'n Kobe's career, at 30, was still Shaq related. Thats 5 years after the guy left his team. 5 years after.
I'd like to see Kobe paired with All-star Kidd and Jefferson.

Would be farther than 2nd round.

Vince had oppurtunities in the playoffs, never made use of them.

And Gasol is a PF not a center moron.

[indiefan23]

LOL

A topic about VC's potential has turned into another "indiefan23: kobe-is-overrated-cant-win-without-Shaq-and-destroys-his-teammates-potential" topic.

Yeah we get it, other teams won championships with crappy line-ups. Look at the Celtics last year, bunch of total scrubs who won thanks to their camaraderie and chemistry.

Kobe is an impostor. He plays with 10+ superstars who all had huge numbers in the play-offs; all scoring 20+ a game and carrying that Bryant loser on their back.

No no. It's not hate. It's facts. :ohwell:

Grow up Phong. I didn't start the topic and its about Vince and Kobe, so... Look at Miami who won starting Jason William's corpse at point and an undrafted power forward. There are plenty of examples. It is a fact.

[indiefan23]

I'd like to see Kobe paired with All-star Kidd and Jefferson.

Would be farther than 2nd round.

Vince had oppurtunities in the playoffs, never made use of them.

And Gasol is a PF not a center moron.

Crap, you guys think Gasol is a 4 now? ;0 After playing center his whole career? Who are 'you' suggesting played center for Memphis besides the 7 foot tall Pau Gasol?? Lorenzen Wright!?!? :0

[indiefan23]

Tmac never had ANY athletic advantage over VC.

The reason TMAC was third fiddle to VC in Toronto is because Butch Carter (then Coach of the raptors) gave the reigns to VC because of his superior athleticism. It has been SAID and confirmed over and over that Tmac was ONLY superior athletically to VC in one of the tests done in pre-draft work outs.
On all other tests, VC destroyed every previous pre-draft workout of any player including Tmac, Kobe etc. The guy was an athletic freak that was never seen before.

Well, except his vert...

[Allstar24]

Heh. :) Kobe got rid of the perception he can't win without Shaq by winning with another franchise center. Sure Kobe won, but if Vince played on the best teams in the league for half of his career instead of none of his career, well, he'd have rings too and plenty of them. Kobe will always be Shaq's second fiddle. Its just how it is. He spent his entire career either winning with shaq or trying to prove himself without Shaq. Shaq was an old broken down man 'n Kobe's career, at 30, was still Shaq related. Thats 5 years after the guy left his team. 5 years after.
Another franchise center...you mean our starting center who averaged 6 ppg/4 rpg on 45% shooting? :oldlol: I guess you were talking about Pau, who as the franchise player won zero playoff games before pairing up with Kobe. Shaq will always be known as the guy who couldn't win a ring without an elite SG. MJ will always be known as the guy who couldn't win a ring without Pippen. It's just how it is. I don't even know why I'm responding, you seem to be out of touch with reality.

[D-Rose]

Crap, you guys think Gasol is a 4 now? ;0 After playing center his whole career? Who are 'you' suggesting played center for Memphis besides the 7 foot tall Pau Gasol?? Lorenzen Wright!?!? :0
His natural position has always been PF. Just like Tim Duncan is a PF but has played C more in the NBA.

You still don't have any excuses for Vince when he played with an All-Star PG, arguably a Top 3 PG in the L and a Top 10 SF in the L.

You think Kobe wouldn't have won the title or at least gone to the Finals with that team?

[ShaqAttack3234]

His natural position has always been PF. Just like Tim Duncan is a PF but has played C more in the NBA.


Duncan a natural PF?!!!!!! :roll: :oldlol: :roll:

Wow you're an idiot. So that's why Duncan was called the next great center by almost every scout the same way Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson were? Duncan plays primarily in the low post, blocks shots, rebounds and protects the paint and he's almost 7 feet tall. Sounds like a natural center to me.

[T-bomb 25]

Shaq>Tim DuncanUh...no Duncan didnt have Penny,Kobe,or Wade,and now Lebron,he gets way to much credit,all 4 of these guys besides Jordan are best perimter players of this era. Duncan>Shaq both have 4 titles and 2 MVP's.

[D-Rose]

Duncan a natural PF?!!!!!! :roll: :oldlol: :roll:

Wow you're an idiot. So that's why Duncan was called the next great center by almost every scout the same way Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson were? Duncan plays primarily in the low post, blocks shots, rebounds and protects the paint and he's almost 7 feet tall. Sounds like a natural center to me.
Yet everyone on ISH and TNT calls him the GOAT PF...:ohwell:

[VeeCee15]

VC's EVERYTHING (vert, speed, strength etc) was better than TMAC.

VC immediately got respect in TORONTO cause he was a beast athlete, TMAC didn't get much respect cause he wasn't as beastly an athlete as VC.
Butch Carter (coach of the raptors) knows more than you about who is more athletic.

The only thing TMAC had on VC in terms of physical characteristics was height..TMAC is like 3 inches taller.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yet everyone on ISH and TNT calls him the GOAT PF...:ohwell:

Because the Spurs insist on listing him as one for all-star voting and legacy reasons. Best power forward sounds a lot better than 6th best center, right? Do you remember in 2007-2008 when Duncan was finally listed as a center on the all-star ballot and the Spurs b*tched and they changed it?

[D-Rose]

Because the Spurs insist on listing him as one for all-star voting and legacy reasons. Best power forward sounds a lot better than 6th best center, right? Do you remember in 2007-2008 when Duncan was finally listed as a center on the all-star ballot and the Spurs b*tched and they changed it?
Yeah, anyways forget about Duncan, I was making my point the Gasol's natural position is PF not C.

[T-bomb 25]

VC's EVERYTHING (vert, speed, strength etc) was better than TMAC.

VC immediately got respect in TORONTO cause he was a beast athlete, TMAC didn't get much respect cause he wasn't as beastly an athlete as VC.
Butch Carter (coach of the raptors) knows more than you about who is more athletic.

The only thing TMAC had on VC in terms of physical characteristics was height..TMAC is like 3 inches taller.If T-Mac was healthy he is the better player hands down,VC looks awkward uncordinated sometimes he does have great range on his shot,but he's a underacheiver although T-Mac is 2 but atleast he has a excuse because of his bad back and a always injured
Yao and VC had a Prime Kidd and Jefferson,he has no excuse except he lacks heart and desire and the will to defend.All the other great Wings of this era would have won with a Prime Kidd and Jefferson.Kobe,Penny,Hill,T-Mac,Wade,Pierce all would have won atleast a title with these guys.

[indiefan23]

His natural position has always been PF. Just like Tim Duncan is a PF but has played C more in the NBA.

You still don't have any excuses for Vince when he played with an All-Star PG, arguably a Top 3 PG in the L and a Top 10 SF in the L.

You think Kobe wouldn't have won the title or at least gone to the Finals with that team?

Pau is a center man. His natural posiiton? Pau naturally played center his entire career and is featured as a center in the Laker's offense. The Lake show also plays best with him at the 5 and Lamar at the 4. Can a mobile 7 foot dude play both positions, sure, he has no problem playing either position and its a big reason the Lakers are so tough. My point is that Vince has 'never' had a guy like that at all. He's had rookies like Josh Boone and 40 year old men like Cliff Robinson. We have not even gotten into Odom.

Umm... Vince's most consistent front court player was Jason Collins. That's a reason, not an excuse and making the second round was over achievement. Kobe absolutely would not have made the finals because he absolutely would not have been able to compete with the Piston's or Cavs front line. It was not the scoring guy's fault they could not grab a rebound to save his life and thats the reason.

I dont' even want to talk about Jefferson, I can't stand the guy. ;0 And Vince was a SF... RJ created a log jam and wasted resources at that position. Its such a silly statement. Will any team win when the mismatch they have to overcome is Shaq O'Neal vs Jason Collins? No, they will not.

[D-Rose]

Pau is a center man. His natural posiiton? Pau naturally played center his entire career and is featured as a center in the Laker's offense. The Lake show also plays best with him at the 5 and Lamar at the 4. Can a mobile 7 foot dude play both positions, sure, he has no problem playing either position and its a big reason the Lakers are so tough. My point is that Vince has 'never' had a guy like that at all. He's had rookies like Josh Boone and 40 year old men like Cliff Robinson. We have not even gotten into Odom.

Umm... Vince's most consistent front court player was Jason Collins. That's a reason, not an excuse and making the second round was over achievement. Kobe absolutely would not have made the finals because he absolutely would not have been able to compete with the Piston's or Cavs front line. It was not the scoring guy's fault they could not grab a rebound to save his life and thats the reason.

I dont' even want to talk about Jefferson, I can't stand the guy. ;0 And Vince was a SF... RJ created a log jam and wasted resources at that position.

Nenad Kristic and Mikki Moore had decent years in NJ.

When you have a Top 5 PG all time that isn't done yet, there's no excuse for you to not make the 2nd round.

Kobe took a 60 win team with his starting center being KWAME BROWN to 7 games.

What's more impressive, beating 40 win teams with a future HOF on your team or taking a 60 win team to 7 wins with no all stars around you.

hmmm

This always comes up, put so and so in kobes position.

TMAC - Put Kobe with Yao. title.

Vince - Put Kobe with Kidd/Jefferson. title.

AI - Put Kobe with Melo/Camby/JR/KMart...title... Put Kobe with Rip/Sheed/Stuckey/Tayshaun...title

Ray Ray - Obviously Kobe on 08 celtics. Put Kobe on that Bucks team..Cassel/Glenn Robinson (20/10)....title

Seriously, just STFU, the best players , make the most of their situations.

[indiefan23]

Yeah, anyways forget about Duncan, I was making my point the Gasol's natural position is PF not C.

Dude, your point is wrong. A 7 footer who's played center his entire life is naturally a center. He plays center in LA, they just started starting him this year at the 4 cuz they wanted to start Bynum who is not as versatile and can only play the 5.

Seriously, you tell 'me' who the center was when LA rolled out vs Boston in last year's finals. Odom, Kobe, Radmonovic, Fisher or...... Pau 7 foot Gasol? He's played the 4 for the 'first' time in his entire career this year and spent most of his time at the 5 because the other dude playing 5 spent half the season injured and didn't even play >30 minutes when he was on the floor anyway. Then in the playoffs Bynum played 17 MPG. How is it Pau is a natural 4? He's not. He's a skilled center and that virtue lets his play two positions if his team needs him to. Its obvious.

[D-Rose]

Dude, your point is wrong. A 7 footer who's played center his entire life is naturally a center. He plays center in LA, they just started starting him this year at the 4 cuz they wanted to start Bynum who is not as versatile and can only play the 5.

Seriously, you tell 'me' who the center was when LA rolled out vs Boston in last year's finals. Odom, Kobe, Radmonovic, Fisher or...... Pau 7 foot Gasol? He's played the 4 for the 'first' time in his entire career this year and spent most of his time at the 5 because the other dude playing 5 spent half the season injured and didn't even play >30 minutes when he was on the floor anyway. Then in the playoffs Bynum played 17 MPG. How is it Pau is a natural 4? He's not. He's a skilled center and that virtue lets his play two positions if his team needs him to. Its obvious.

Wanna contradict my last post?

[IlliniFan]

Nenad Kristic and Mikki Moore had decent years in NJ.

When you have a Top 5 PG all time that isn't done yet, there's no excuse for you to not make the 2nd round.

Kobe took a 60 win team with his starting center being KWAME BROWN to 7 games.

What's more impressive, beating 40 win teams with a future HOF on your team or taking a 60 win team to 7 wins with no all stars around you.

hmmm

This always comes up, put so and so in kobes position.

TMAC - Put Kobe with Yao. title.

Vince - Put Kobe with Kidd/Jefferson. title.

AI - Put Kobe with Melo/Camby/JR/KMart...title... Put Kobe with Rip/Sheed/Stuckey/Tayshaun...title

Ray Ray - Obviously Kobe on 08 celtics. Put Kobe on that Bucks team..Cassel/Glenn Robinson (20/10)....title

Seriously, just STFU, the best players , make the most of their situations.
This is the most retarded post I've read in a while. First of all, they did make it to the 2nd round. And to just assume kobe would win a title in those sistuations is ridiculous. You realize how stupid that **** sounds? You can't just say oh yeah put this player here and you get a title.

[D-Rose]

This is the most retarded post I've read in a while. First of all, they did make it to the 2nd round. And to just assume kobe would win a title in those sistuations is ridiculous. You realize how stupid that **** sounds? You can't just say oh yeah put this player here and you get a title.
Oh wow.

I was using the logic people use with KOBE AND PLAYER "X" who never got to play with Shaq.

I'm not saying it would be a title...NO WAY do hypotheticals always work but it shows the other players have also had shots to do more....

and i didnt say they didnt make the 2nd round :rolleyes: didnt get past it.

[IlliniFan]

Oh wow.

I was using the logic people use with KOBE AND PLAYER "X" who never got to play with Shaq.

I'm not saying it would be a title...NO WAY do hypotheticals always work but it shows the other players have also had shots to do more....

and i didnt say they didnt make the 2nd round :rolleyes: didnt get past it.
It really doesn't prove anything at all. And reread your post. You said this.


When you have a Top 5 PG all time that isn't done yet, there's no excuse for you to not make the 2nd round.

[D-Rose]

It really doesn't prove anything at all. And reread your post. You said this.
My fault, I meant make it past the 2nd round

I know it doesn't prove anything but then neither does put perimeter star X with Shaq and it's a title.

[jlitt]

Except for Penny who had better handles than both of them and more athlethic abillity.

Penny wasn't so hot though after shaq left.

[Agent_Zero]

I think he did. If he gave a damn, I guarantee he would be right up there in the Jordan talks with Kobe. At least until Kobe started winning all those titles with Shaq. Vince's got athleticism, a solid jumper, clutch ability, he can carry a team with his scoring. The only thing Kobe's got on VC is handles. If Carter had Kobe's handles and work ethic, I promise he would be right up there with Kobe.

It's just sad it didn't work out like that. I love Vince, he's one of my favorite players. I'm excited to see him on a contender...it will be something special.

Maybe we get Lakers/Magic part II and see Kobe and Vince battle for ourselves.

[indiefan23]

Nenad Kristic and Mikki Moore had decent years in NJ.

Kristic was a freaking rookie/soph during those years. Then he got hurt. Then he was never the same. His peak was 13.5/6 and then he was done. Menh.

And Mikki Moore? What????? Mikki Moore did not even play with Vince Carter. Not a game. But lets pretend he did.

Moore played 4 games for NJ. 4 games with his team, They went out, 4-3 mind you, to the same Piston's team that pummeled Kobe in a near sweep in the finals. Kobe had Shaq AND Karl Malone. And Payton/Horace Grant/Rick Fox/Devan George/Derek Fisher/Bryon Russell as freaking role players. They should have been swept. When the Nets lost both of the first games in Detroit, they came back home and won 3 straight to put the pistons on the ropes. They even won a triple over time game on the backs of Vince and Kidd. They lost the next game by 6 points and were worn out.

LA was embarrassed by that same team they pushed to a very close 7 by 12, 20, 8 and 13 points. Their one win by 8 points was squeaked out at the end. Heres why they lost. Kobe took 113 shots to Shaq's 84, shot 38% and 18% from 3. He would have shot more, but in game 3 to prove a point to his own team, in the finals, he quit shooting. Its one of the 'worst' performances of all time by an elite player, bar none, and could possibly be the GOAT worst performance in the finals, ever.

And look at what you're saying? Vince ain't **** to compare to him because vs the same team that destroyed Kobe vince had Mikki Moore and Jason Collins, except Vince was not even sitting on the bench in those games. ;0 Awesome.


When you have a Top 5 PG all time that isn't done yet, there's no excuse for you to not make the 2nd round.

Umm... even when you play the best team in the east? Do you not recall Vince showed up and pushed them into the playoffs? Half a season of him is 'why' they got into the first round. When you play the best team in the east who would have made the finals had Wade not been hurt, its tough to win.


Kobe took a 60 win team with his starting center being KWAME BROWN to 7 games.

His 6'th man was the refs too. Were they saved in 2 or 3 wins? They they gave up a 3-1 lead to be decimated. Point?

What's more impressive, beating 40 win teams with a future HOF on your team or taking a 60 win team to 7 wins with no all stars around you.[/quote]

As if Lamar Freaking Odom is not a star. BS.


This always comes up, put so and so in kobes position.

TMAC - Put Kobe with Yao. title.

Vince - Put Kobe with Kidd/Jefferson. title.

AI - Put Kobe with Melo/Camby/JR/KMart...title... Put Kobe with Rip/Sheed/Stuckey/Tayshaun...title

Ray Ray - Obviously Kobe on 08 celtics. Put Kobe on that Bucks team..Cassel/Glenn Robinson (20/10)....title

Seriously, just STFU, the best players , make the most of their situations.

Ha, umm... thats silly. Put Kobe on injured teams and they win? How does Kobe palying without Yao mean titles? Or Kobe playing with a 40 year old cliff robinson stop Shaq from owning them? And you think Kobe's going to be able to manage a team full of knuckleheads like Denver.

Or even sacrifice his own stats to be part of the team on the Celtics/Pistons? Even if he wins a title with them. Sure, he can win titles on teams that also won titles. All the guards/sf's you mentioned could win on that Celtic's team. Any of the guys you mentioned could win on that celtic's team. You're really making no point except that the Celtics were an awesome team. Vince's team was not, and Kobe does not win titles there. He just does not win titles with Jason Collins and 40 year old Cliff Robinson. Stop being so foolish.

[LA_Showtime]

Kristic was a freaking rookie/soph during those years. Then he got hurt. Then he was never the same. His peak was 13.5/6 and then he was done. Menh.

And Mikki Moore? What????? Mikki Moore did not even play with Vince Carter. Not a game. But lets pretend he did.

Moore played 4 games for NJ. 4 games with his team, They went out, 4-3 mind you, to the same Piston's team that pummeled Kobe in a near sweep in the finals. Kobe had Shaq AND Karl Malone. And Payton/Horace Grant/Rick Fox/Devan George/Derek Fisher/Bryon Russell as freaking role players. They should have been swept. When the Nets lost both of the first games in Detroit, they came back home and won 3 straight to put the pistons on the ropes. They even won a triple over time game on the backs of Vince and Kidd. They lost the next game by 6 points and were worn out.

LA was embarrassed by that same team they pushed to a very close 7 by 12, 20, 8 and 13 points. Their one win by 8 points was squeaked out at the end. Heres why they lost. Kobe took 113 shots to Shaq's 84, shot 38% and 18% from 3. He would have shot more, but in game 3 to prove a point to his own team, in the finals, he quit shooting. Its one of the 'worst' performances of all time by an elite player, bar none, and could possibly be the GOAT worst performance in the finals, ever.

And look at what you're saying? Vince ain't **** to compare to him because vs the same team that destroyed Kobe vince had Mikki Moore and Jason Collins, except Vince was not even sitting on the bench in those games. ;0 Awesome.



Umm... even when you play the best team in the east? Do you not recall Vince showed up and pushed them into the playoffs? Half a season of him is 'why' they got into the first round. When you play the best team in the east who would have made the finals had Wade not been hurt, its tough to win.



His 6'th man was the refs too. Were they saved in 2 or 3 wins? They they gave up a 3-1 lead to be decimated. Point?

What's more impressive, beating 40 win teams with a future HOF on your team or taking a 60 win team to 7 wins with no all stars around you.

As if Lamar Freaking Odom is not a star. BS.



Ha, umm... thats silly. Put Kobe on injured teams and they win? How does Kobe palying without Yao mean titles? Or Kobe playing with a 40 year old cliff robinson stop Shaq from owning them? And you think Kobe's going to be able to manage a team full of knuckleheads like Denver.

Or even sacrifice his own stats to be part of the team on the Celtics/Pistons? Even if he wins a title with them. Sure, he can win titles on teams that also won titles. All the guards/sf's you mentioned could win on that Celtic's team. Any of the guys you mentioned could win on that celtic's team. You're really making no point except that the Celtics were an awesome team. Vince's team was not, and Kobe does not win titles there. He just does not win titles with Jason Collins and 40 year old Cliff Robinson. Stop being so foolish.

You blame a lot of uncontrolled cirumstances and you love to exaggerate. :oldlol:

[indiefan23]

My fault, I meant make it past the 2nd round

I know it doesn't prove anything but then neither does put perimeter star X with Shaq and it's a title.

Dude, the Nets were a poorly constructed team. They had glaring holes in their front line and it cost them games and playoff series. The Lakers were a well constructed team. They had no glaring holes. If you replace Kobe with another star guard, they will have much the same results because not much has changed. They still have the same strengths. The team still runs through Shaq who makes it easy for everyone else to produce and anchors the defense. If you replace other stars on other poorly constructed teams with Kobe upgrade at that spot or not, they still have the same problems. You're saying Vince sucks in comparison because his ok center got hurt and Jason Collins sucks. You're saying t-mac sucks because Grant Hill and Yao (and him eventually) got injured every year. You're strongest point is that on another really great well constructed team Kobe could win a title. That makes sense, but it also equates Kobe to Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton. I wonder if you even notice that you more or less stated that.

[indiefan23]

Wanna contradict my last post?

Heh, everyone else has done that. I joined in the fun, but yea, your last post is a little silly. I get if you love Kobe and want to defend him, but to do that by rejecting all his -'s, highlighting everyone else's -'s,and vice versa for +'s, is just not defending him at all.

[indiefan23]

You blame a lot of uncontrolled cirumstances and you love to exaggerate. :oldlol:

Specifics?

[D-Rose]

Kristic was a freaking rookie/soph during those years. Then he got hurt. Then he was never the same. His peak was 13.5/6 and then he was done. Menh.

And Mikki Moore? What????? Mikki Moore did not even play with Vince Carter. Not a game. But lets pretend he did.

Moore played 4 games for NJ. 4 games with his team, They went out, 4-3 mind you, to the same Piston's team that pummeled Kobe in a near sweep in the finals. Kobe had Shaq AND Karl Malone. And Payton/Horace Grant/Rick Fox/Devan George/Derek Fisher/Bryon Russell as freaking role players. They should have been swept. When the Nets lost both of the first games in Detroit, they came back home and won 3 straight to put the pistons on the ropes. They even won a triple over time game on the backs of Vince and Kidd. They lost the next game by 6 points and were worn out.

LA was embarrassed by that same team they pushed to a very close 7 by 12, 20, 8 and 13 points. Their one win by 8 points was squeaked out at the end. Heres why they lost. Kobe took 113 shots to Shaq's 84, shot 38% and 18% from 3. He would have shot more, but in game 3 to prove a point to his own team, in the finals, he quit shooting. Its one of the 'worst' performances of all time by an elite player, bar none, and could possibly be the GOAT worst performance in the finals, ever.

And look at what you're saying? Vince ain't **** to compare to him because vs the same team that destroyed Kobe vince had Mikki Moore and Jason Collins, except Vince was not even sitting on the bench in those games. ;0 Awesome.



Umm... even when you play the best team in the east? Do you not recall Vince showed up and pushed them into the playoffs? Half a season of him is 'why' they got into the first round. When you play the best team in the east who would have made the finals had Wade not been hurt, its tough to win.



His 6'th man was the refs too. Were they saved in 2 or 3 wins? They they gave up a 3-1 lead to be decimated. Point?

What's more impressive, beating 40 win teams with a future HOF on your team or taking a 60 win team to 7 wins with no all stars around you

As if Lamar Freaking Odom is not a star. BS.



Ha, umm... thats silly. Put Kobe on injured teams and they win? How does Kobe palying without Yao mean titles? Or Kobe playing with a 40 year old cliff robinson stop Shaq from owning them? And you think Kobe's going to be able to manage a team full of knuckleheads like Denver.

Or even sacrifice his own stats to be part of the team on the Celtics/Pistons? Even if he wins a title with them. Sure, he can win titles on teams that also won titles. All the guards/sf's you mentioned could win on that Celtic's team. Any of the guys you mentioned could win on that celtic's team. You're really making no point except that the Celtics were an awesome team. Vince's team was not, and Kobe does not win titles there. He just does not win titles with Jason Collins and 40 year old Cliff Robinson. Stop being so foolish.
Then you know what Kristic in his rookie year>>>Kwame ever :oldlol:

Kristic was 16/7 in 06/07

What the motherbleepin hell are you talking about????
06-07 Vince played 82 games, Mikki played 79.....WTF??? 4 games?? Mikki averaged 10/5, a bit better than sir Kwame.

Sure that was a terrible performance by Kobe in the Finals, what makes you think Vince Carter wouldn't have been harassed the same way by that defense? And LBJ in 2007 is just as bad if not worse.

You bring up Kobe's 6th man as the refs. HAVE YOU NEVER WATCHED WADE OR LEBRON PLAY? :roll: :roll:

Odom=Jefferson in production and impact...IDIOT.

You count Malone as something for LA? Why not Zo for Vince then? :hammerhead:

I didn't mean that they would be titles. I meant that every one of those wing players has had talent around them, not as much as kobe in the shaq era but still enough to win a title if they had the work ethic and the desire to push their team.

You think Kobe couldn't do what Chaunce did? Kobe showed these playoffs he's a capable leader. :oldlol: @ Kobe/Melo tandem not in the Finals AT LEAST. Kobe plays a hell of a lot more team and defensive ball than Iverson could dream of.

McGrady and Yao had playoff series where they were both healthy....both lost in 2 game 7s....you think kobe+yao isnt at least 1st round victory? :oldlol:

At the end of the day, Vince Carter played with the one of the Top 3 PG in the game and argubaly Top 5-10 all time and a Top ten SF in the game at the time and he got no further than the 2nd round...

And all this BS bout he didn't have a big man....

Thank god he landed on the team with the Best Center in the league, now we'll see if VC can actually win with a dominant center.

[okayabc123]

This is gotten to a point where it's ridiculous...

Do ALL of you understand that you are arguing Kobe Bryant with IFs...

IF x player played with Shaq
IF VC had work ethic like Kobe
IF TMac didn't get injured
IF MJ played in this ERA
IF Lebron had teammates

It's always IFs when people argued the most hated player in the game. It's not what he accomplished, because all of you some how just know (or ASSUME to know) IF so and so was in Kobe's shoes they would've done not just as good, but x times better.

[Johnni Gade]

He could've been great.

[ZaaaaaH]

Kobe is better then most people because of his work ethic.

work ethic is a skill dont get it twisted

[Young Money]

I think the one thing Vince is always unfairly judged by is his tendencies to get injured which has slowed down his explosion to rim over the course of his career. That is NOT a lack of heart. It's tough playing basketball every other night as well as practicing through injuries, and unfortunately for him, the wear and tear took it's course a little earlier then the rest of us expected.

With that said, I tend to think Kobe still had more potential then Vince simply because he was more selfish. Vince is more likely to let his teammates (Which isn't a weakness) decide the outcome of a game as opposed to Kobe who had the desire, even when playing with Shaq, of wanting to dominate the defining moments of a game, especially early on. Sometimes with certain players, that selfishness through trial and error is what accelerates your potential to becoming a great player.