Charles Barkley: The best power forward of all time?

[Abraham Lincoln]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Hsj-xP8Zc

Here be, for you have NEVER seen such dribbling and passing ability and power from the likes of Tim Duncan or Karl Malone. Duncan be a center, and Malone just is inferior. Charles Barkley at his peak with the Philadelphia 76ers be a hybrid of LeBron James and Dennis Rodman, with the defense of Larry Bird and the strength of Shaquille O'Neal. Here be the proof (http://i42.tinypic.com/2w1w8kx.jpg) Barkley took down O'Neal in the infamous fight.


Here be some thoughts from such wise peers on the wise man Sir Charles Barkley.

"Barkley is like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in that they don't really play a position," "He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

* Bill Walton

He showed the ability to run the floor and finish like a powerful guard and yet in half court sets I still haven't seen a player that could dip under an opposing player and draw a foul call and often get the bucket too! His sense of throwing the ball up to show that he was in the act of shooting was uncanny and probably got him an extra 5000 points!

There are only four players with at least 20,000 points 10,000 rebounds and 4000 assists and Barkley is there with players like Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Karl Malone. Thats some impressive company to be held in.

But Charles was more than stats because I never felt he was trying to get stats more than he was trying to win. He defended players like Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson because he wanted to guard the best. Wasn't all league defense but it was the challenge and that's missing in alot of today's players.

Some people will argue that Karl Malone was better and they could try and validate it with numbers and hardware but Barkley rarely came up short in the
clutch (Remember his game winning shot against David Robinson in the 1993 Western Conference Semifinals?) and he certainly had no John Stockton or consistent head coach like Jerry Sloan alongside him for a
career. He left Philly because cheap owner Harold Katz wouldn't build a winner around him and by the time he reached Houston Hakeem and Drexler were set to retire.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/charles-barkleysuns.jpg

[John Smith]

Tim Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles "DUI" aka Hooker Barkley

[miles berg]

Tim Duncan is the best PF in the history of the NBA by a good margin.

[QuestFor17]

Tim Duncan is the best PF in the history of the NBA by a good margin.

I think Barkley has himself admitted that Duncan's better.

[andgar923]

If we give Barkley Duncan's team, would we say the same?

[RocketGreatness]

I think Barkley has himself admitted that Duncan's better.
He has admitted that frequently.

Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all-time, if you appreciate greatness and accomplishments. If you appreciate nothing but stats and Sir_Charles opinion, you can pick Charles Barkley as the GOAT PF.

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/94/91294-004-61E090BA.jpg

[JohnnySic]

^The guy with the trophy.

[MaxFly]

I'd take Duncan over Barkley, as would most... including Barkley himself.

[TMT]

Duncan's 4 Championships > Barkley's Career

[clayton]

Even without rings to back it up, Tim Duncan's defense and offensive skills overwhelm Barkley with ease.

[DonDadda59]

If we give Barkley Duncan's team, would we say the same?

Do you honestly see Barkley taking that '03 Spurs team to the promised land? Barkley would've done well offensively, but Duncan's defense made those Spurs teams what they were. The man should realistically have 2-3 DPOYs.

[Maniak]

Titlez>Statz.

Im a Sunz fan, so not bashing on Charles at all, he is one of the best PFs of all time, no doubt.

[T-bomb 25]

Duncan by miles Barkley isnt even 2nd.

[Harison]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Malone
4. Petitt
5. Barkley, I could see the case of Barkley being better than Petitt or Malone (it could be argued vice versa too), but he wasnt as good as KG or Duncan.

[-M-I]

Barkley isn't even the 2nd best PF all-time.

[T-bomb 25]

1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Malone
4. Petitt
5. Barkley, I could see the case of Barkley being better than Petitt or Malone (it could be argued vice versa too), but he wasnt as good as KG or Duncan.Mchale is in my top 5,actually higher than Barkley.

[lolwut]

Tim Duncan.

[Roundball_Rock]

If we give Barkley Duncan's team, would we say the same?

The 93' Suns were far more talented than any of Duncan's title winning teams.

[T-bomb 25]

The 93' Suns were far more talented than any of Duncan's title winning teams.Maybe but the fact remains and even more impressively so since you mentioned that....Duncan 4rings > Barkley 0 rings....case closed.

[ktj1212]

Even without rings to back it up, Tim Duncan's defense and offensive skills overwhelm Barkley with ease.

even i think barkley is in fact the best power forward in nba history, i have no problem when people argue that the honor should go to duncan. however we should get something straight: saying duncan's offensive skills "overwhelm" barkley's is like saying brent barry was a better dunker than vince carter. there is no argument that duncan is a vastly superior defender than barkley. but it is also equally inarguable that barkley was the vastly more offensively talented of the two. barkley revolutionized the power forward position, where as duncan was the stereotypical power forward. barkley showed us things we never thought we'd see out of any power forward, where as duncan showed us things we'd seen thousands of times before, but perhaps no one that had been as effective or consistent.
of course many will argue that duncan's four rings ends the argument, but i think there is much to be said for the fact barkley played in the golden era and lost to legends like bird, jordan, ewing, malone and stockton. not to take anything away from him, duncan's career began a year before the lockout, just as the league began to get watered down with unproven high school talent and the foreign influx. duncan is great, but there was a good three to four year span when the talent level was sad. the same could not be said for any point during barkley's career.

[barbaroi]

even i think barkley is in fact the best power forward in nba history, i have no problem when people argue that the honor should go to duncan. however we should get something straight: saying duncan's offensive skills "overwhelm" barkley's is like saying brent barry was a better dunker than vince carter. there is no argument that duncan is a vastly superior defender than barkley. but it is also equally inarguable that barkley was the vastly more offensively talented of the two. barkley revolutionized the power forward position, where as duncan was the stereotypical power forward. barkley showed us things we never thought we'd see out of any power forward, where as duncan showed us things we'd seen thousands of times before, but perhaps no one that had been as effective or consistent.
of course many will argue that duncan's four rings ends the argument, but i think there is much to be said for the fact barkley played in the golden era and lost to legends like bird, jordan, ewing, malone and stockton. not to take anything away from him, duncan's career began a year before the lockout, just as the league began to get watered down with unproven high school talent and the foreign influx. duncan is great, but there was a good three to four year span when the talent level was sad. the same could not be said for any point during barkley's career.
Lol @ "the foreign influx" making the league weaker. Yes, because clearly the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Tony Parker, Hedo Turkoglu etc. have made the league "watered down". Freaking racist step back and realize what you just said. If foreign players weren't good they wouldn't get into the league. If they weren't better than some American born players, they wouldn't have been drafted, meaning they have made the league STRONGER by taking the spot of less talented American players who would have made the league if there were no "foreign influx".

[jlitt]

What makes duncan a pf and not a center?

[KG5MVP]

1.KG
2. Barkley

Tim Duncan is a center

[lakers_forever]

People forget defense and work ethic are also important to judge a player.
Therefore : Tim Duncan, Malone and Bob Pettit > Barkley.
People forget about Pettit. He won a title as the man. 2 time MVP and just like Karl Malone, he was all nba first team for almost his entire career.

[jlitt]

People forget defense and work ethic are also important to judge a player.
Therefore : Tim Duncan, Malone and Bob Pettit > Barkley.
People forget about Pettit. He won a title as the man. 2 time MVP and just like Karl Malone, he was all nba first team for almost his entire career.

People also forget talent is the most important way to judge a player. Barkley was the most talented pf I've ever seen play

[Melissa]

1-duncan
2-malone
3-barkley
4-mchale
5-garnett
6-hayes
7-pettit
8-dirk

[ktj1212]

Lol @ "the foreign influx" making the league weaker. Yes, because clearly the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Tony Parker, Hedo Turkoglu etc. have made the league "watered down". Freaking racist step back and realize what you just said. If foreign players weren't good they wouldn't get into the league. If they weren't better than some American born players, they wouldn't have been drafted, meaning they have made the league STRONGER by taking the spot of less talented American players who would have made the league if there were no "foreign influx".
wow man, relax... i am in no way racist and, if you read what i wrote more carefully, you'd realize i did not at any point say anything bad about foreign born players, on the whole. rather the point i was making was that there were a few years there when every team in the league thought they were gonna draft the next kg or the next dirk. but sadly, the vast majority of the players chosen during that era were not the next kg or dirk. i have no problem whatsoever with any foreign born player and on the whole, i think it enhances the league. but the reality is that many of those guys get drafted and then never pan out, as was the case for a few years with the straight outta high schoolers.
so next time, take a deep breath and perhaps even re-read the post before you go making baseless accusations. there's no racist here, just a severe hoops head.

[DLeagueWannabe]

1.KG
2. Barkley

Tim Duncan is a center

QFT

[Allstar24]

:oldlol: Barkley is not even top 5.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Tim Duncan is the best PF in the history of the NBA by a good margin.
He be a center-forward in the eyes of the wise man.

[RocketGreatness]

:oldlol: Barkley is not even top 5.
Overkill, He's at least the 4th best power forward of all-time at the very least that is. I have him ranked as the 3rd greatest power forward of all-time, tied with 2nd at best with Karl Malone.

1. Tim Duncan

(big drop off)

2. Karl Malone
3. Sir Charles
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Kevin McHale.

[Abraham Lincoln]

The 93' Suns were far more talented than any of Duncan's title winning teams.
Alas, whilst playing against a far superior team than Malone or Duncan have ever faced.

[DLeagueWannabe]

He be a center-forward in the eyes of the wise man.

exactly. Duncan is a Center.

[Duncan21formvp]

Duncan way much better than Barkley.

[snipes12]

http://vmedia.rivals.com/IMAGES/PROSPECT/PHOTO/BLAKEGRIFFIN7_11150.JPG

[Toizumi]

Here be, for you have NEVER seen such dribbling and passing ability and power from the likes of Tim Duncan or Karl Malone. Duncan be a center, and Malone just is inferior. Charles Barkley at his peak with the Philadelphia 76ers be a hybrid of LeBron James and Dennis Rodman, with the defense of Larry Bird and the strength of Shaquille O'Neal. Here be the proof (http://i42.tinypic.com/2w1w8kx.jpg) Barkley took down O'Neal in the infamous fight.

Yeah Tim Duncan is a post player. But this has been the only season in which he played C primarily. Although it can be argued that the Spurs use 2 C's... Duncan has played (and won) alongside Robinson, Oberto, Nazr Mohammed, Rasho Nesterovic and Fransisco Elson, al of whom were starting for the Spurs at some point. If you look at the spurs starting line ups from the past few years you'll see Duncan started almost every game at PF with one of these guys alongside him.





Here be some thoughts from such wise peers on the wise man Sir Charles Barkley.

"Barkley is like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in that they don't really play a position," "He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

* Bill Walton


lol, you quoted Bill Walton (with all due respect to an all time great)..COME ON!!..

http://deadspin.com/assets/resources/2007/02/bill%20walton2.jpg




He showed the ability to run the floor and finish like a powerful guard and yet in half court sets I still haven't seen a player that could dip under an opposing player and draw a foul call and often get the bucket too! His sense of throwing the ball up to show that he was in the act of shooting was uncanny and probably got him an extra 5000 points!

There are only four players with at least 20,000 points 10,000 rebounds and 4000 assists and Barkley is there with players like Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Karl Malone. Thats some impressive company to be held in.

But Charles was more than stats because I never felt he was trying to get stats more than he was trying to win. He defended players like Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson because he wanted to guard the best. Wasn't all league defense but it was the challenge and that's missing in alot of today's players.

Some people will argue that Karl Malone was better and they could try and validate it with numbers and hardware but Barkley rarely came up short in the
clutch (Remember his game winning shot against David Robinson in the 1993 Western Conference Semifinals?) and he certainly had no John Stockton or consistent head coach like Jerry Sloan alongside him for a
career. He left Philly because cheap owner Harold Katz wouldn't build a winner around him and by the time he reached Houston Hakeem and Drexler were set to retire.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/watchdog/blog/charles-barkleysuns.jpg

TRUE. But Duncan came in, killed the league, won 4 chips and is still running. Barkley was more versatile but Duncan is just bigger and better. He has proven this over the years. Barkley is fcking great. but he's not the best PF of all time. :no: Duncan is. and after Duncan there are a lot of guys fighting for second place. I dont like ranking players so I'll put them all at nr 2. But Duncan is the clear nr 1 PF of all time.

[redhonda76]

Jesus Christ....

Don't post this type of topic again. I dont want Sir Charles posting all the stats in bold and colors that fill up the whole page.

[Heelcrazy2]

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Chuck
4. KG
5. McHale

[ShaqAttack3234]

Duncan is the 6th best center of all time.

[Melissa]

Duncan is the 6th best center of all time.

i agree

1-kareem
2-olajuwon
3-wilt
4-russell
5-Drob
6-Duncan
7-Mikan
8-shaq

[nnn123]

i agree

1-kareem
2-olajuwon
3-wilt
4-russell
5-Drob
6-Duncan
7-Mikan
8-shaq

no Moses on ur list?

[Heelcrazy2]

i agree

1-kareem
2-olajuwon
3-wilt
4-russell
5-Drob
6-Duncan
7-Mikan
8-shaq

1. TD is not a center
2. No way that Shaq is below Mikan
3. No way you can put Hakeem at number two. He is at best number 4.
5. I like DRob, but TD has had a better career.

[ShaqAttack3234]

i agree

1-kareem
2-olajuwon
3-wilt
4-russell
5-Drob
6-Duncan
7-Mikan
8-shaq

You are an idiot.

1.Kareem
2.Shaq
3.Wilt
4.Olajuwon
5.Russell
6.Duncan

[Abraham Lincoln]

exactly. Duncan is a Center.
This be correct, alas one must consider out of the likes of Malone, Garnett, and Barkley, it is only Sir Charles that be capable of commanding double teams 20 feet away from the rim. For this thread be not about the greatest power forward, due to the wise man's creedence obviously being Duncan or Malone, but rather the most talented power forward. The top player.

[T-bomb 25]

You are an idiot.

1.Kareem
2.Shaq
3.Wilt
4.Olajuwon
5.Russell
6.DuncanSo are you

1.Kereem
2.Hakeem
3.Russell
4.Wilt
5.Shaq/and if you want to put him at center/Duncan

[Abraham Lincoln]

So are you

1.Kereem
2.Hakeem
3.Russell
4.Wilt
5.Shaq/and if you want to put him at center/Duncan

Alas, the proper list be:

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Moses Malone

[bizil]

In my mind Chuck along with KG are the best talents the four has ever seen. Both changed the way a PF was viewed. Chris Webber deserve a shout out too when it comes to this by the way, and even Shawn Kemp from an athletic standpoint at 6'10. Legacy wise which includes titles and accolades might lean the argument to Duncan. But if we are talking who was the best player as far as talent goes my vote is going to Chuck first and then KG. Both have done enough and KG has done it all. Both could play BIG AND SMALL at the same time better than any fours ever. Barkley at 6'5 played like a seven footer with his strength and hops. KG at 7'0 moved and played like a wing but still could lead the league in rebounds and be DPOY. Malone isn't as talented as Chuck and Timmy isn't as talented as KG. But Malone and Duncan are more traditional style PF's that could do the PF stuff just as good or in some facets even better than Chuck and KG. But I ride with Chuck and KG when it comes to the best talents at those positions. But I would never argue with anybody who says Karl or Timmy. It could be any of those four. But Mchale narrowly over Timmy is still the most unstoppable on that damn block!

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yeah Tim Duncan is a post player. But this has been the only season in which he played C primarily. Although it can be argued that the Spurs use 2 C's... Duncan has played (and won) alongside Robinson, Oberto, Nazr Mohammed, Rasho Nesterovic and Fransisco Elson, al of whom were starting for the Spurs at some point. If you look at the spurs starting line ups from the past few years you'll see Duncan started almost every game at PF with one of these guys alongside him.
Alas, tis just in the midst of offseason to enrich solid sharing of varying creedences amongst the common men here. It be arguable no doubt.

[Sir Charles]

There Are Only 2 Players in NBA History (3 with Hakeem if you take his Prime) that have Provided More Impact and Efficiency in the Top 10 All-Time Proof of Broken Down Statistics Play and in the Toughest Era In NBA History: 80s and Early 90s!!!

Top 10 All Time EFF
Top 10 All Time PER
Top 10 All Time Statistical +/-

Thy Pictures are Here for Thou To See! :bowdown: :bowdown:

http://images.smarter.com/blogs/jordan_barkley.jpg

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leaderscareer.htm?stat=eff&lg=n

Career EFF Leaders

Player EFF Seasons

1 Wilt Chamberlain 41.50 14
2 Bill Russell 31.71 13
3 Oscar Robertson 31.61 14
4 Bob Pettit 31.11 11
5 Kareem Abdul-jabbar 30.93 20
6 Larry Bird 29.77 13
7 Elgin Baylor 29.74 14
8 Michael Jordan 29.19 15
9 Magic Johnson 29.10 13
10 Charles Barkley 28.16 16


http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1654

The Top 10 Power Forwards of All Time (*according to statistical +/-)
Posted by Neil Paine on March 9, 2009

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=1415

The other day, I talked at some length about “statistical plus/minus,” which is just a regression of pure adjusted +/- on the conventional boxscore stats. In that post, I looked into the possibility of predicting the following season using a weighted average of the 3 previous seasons’ SPM scores, but I realize that I sort of skimmed over the statistical +/- metric itself — what are its strengths and weaknesses? What kind of players does it overrate and underrate?


In an effort to better understand the metric and answer these questions, I calculated the career leaders in SPM (combined NBA + ABA, minimum 15,000 career MP) through last Saturday’s games. Here’s the list:

Player Pos G Min SPM
---------------+--+----------+--------+------
michaeljordan G 1072 41013 12.85
wiltchamberlain C 1045 47859 11.59
davidrobinson C 987 34272 10.79
lebronjames F 444 18083 10.00
charlesbarkley F 1073 39330 9.03
k.abdul-jabbar C 1560 57446 9.01
magicjohnson G 906 33245 8.82
larrybird F 897 34443 8.81
juliuserving F 1243 45227 8.57
shaquilleo'neal C 1089 39103 8.21

bobpettit F 792 30690 7.87
clydedrexler G 1086 37537 7.79
oscarrobertson G 1040 43886 7.75
hakeemolajuwon C 1238 44222 7.70
elginbaylor F 846 33863 7.59
karlmalone F 1476 54852 7.50
andreikirilenko F 533 16671 7.37
timduncan F 877 32481 7.30
tracymcgrady F 784 27463 7.12
kevingarnett F 1051 39570 6.91

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html

Career Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

NBA Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Shaquille O'Neal 26.87
3. LeBron James 26.20
4. David Robinson* 26.18
5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13
6. Bob Pettit* 25.37
7. Tim Duncan 25.05
8. Neil Johnston* 24.66
9. Charles Barkley* 24.63
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

Career Playoffs Leaders and Records for Player Efficiency Rating

NBA Rank Player PER

1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.83
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
5. Tim Duncan 26.09
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.58
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Malone in their primes ages 22-32

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135370

*Malone could only get the best out of Barkley when Barkley could hardly play

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Garnett while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 33-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=garneke01

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Duncan while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 34-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO PF EVER OUTPLAYED BARKLEY IN HIS PRIME AND WITH HEALTH

QUOTES OF TRUTH:

"NO PLAYER CAN OUTPLAY ME OR GUARD ME IN MY POSITION"
"I AM THE 9TH WONDER OF THE WORLD"
"THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER 6`4 PLAYER THAT CAN DO WHAT I CAN, EVER"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And No :no: TIS Barkley THE ONE!

THY MOST UNSTOPPABLE PF ON THE LOW BLOCK OR AWAY FROM THE BLOCK

58.13% 2-POINT FG (21.6 PPG on 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG)
55.13% 2-POINT FG (22.5 PPG on 14.5 Two Point FGAs PG)

AS THE FOCAL SCORER, DOUBLE AND TRIPLED with Help of Perimeter Players

No BIRD, DJ, MAXWELL, PRIME AINGE OR WALTON to Pass to Him

NO STOCKTON "GREATEST PASSER EVER" TO LIVE OFF LIKE PARASITE FOR ALL HIS CAREER In a PICK & ROLL SYSTEM/EASY FAST BREAK POINTS FOR EASY BUCKETS

BARKLEY = GREATEST OFFENSIVE PF EVER!

BARKLEY IN OFFENSIVE RATING RANKS AHEAD OF ANY OTHER PF AND PER AMOUNT OF POSSESIONS ONLY JORDAN AND MAGIC ARE COMPARABLE...AND THEY BE GUARDS!

[ShaqAttack3234]

So are you

1.Kereem
2.Hakeem
3.Russell
4.Wilt
5.Shaq/and if you want to put him at center/Duncan

This coming from the idiot that said Penny Hardaway was the best player in the league at one point. :roll: Atleast you got number 1 right and I have no problem with Hakeem at number 2.


Alas, the proper list be:

Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Moses Malone

Kareem is clearly number 1 and Shaq, Wilt and Olajuwon are all arguable from 2-4.

But I'm sorry there's no f*cking way Russell is ahead of them. Why is it ignored that Russell only dominated one end and was average at best offensively? Is that overlooked when talking about Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo? No, because Russell played with a ridiculous amount of hall of famers and great scorers in an era with just 7-8 teams. Does Mourning get credit for his defense the way he deserves too? How about Robinson? Each were two way players, so if defense is that important then why not rank guys like that higher?

Hakeem, Kareem and Shaq all made a much bigger impact defensively than Russell did offensively, and Kareem and Shaq were atleast as dominant offensively as Russell was defensively. Hakeem may have been too, but only for a 2 or 3 year stretch.

The only thing people can bring up for Russell when ranking him above guys like Shaq are the 11 rings which becomes a dumb argument when you consider he often played with 3 or 4 hall of famers at a time in their prime in a league with 1/4 the teams that Shaq plays against and Shaq still has 4 and a chance to win another. Then you consider that Shaq easily has longevity over Russell.

Don't get me wrong, Russell was a great player, a winner, a great leader and a top 5 center of all time, but people ignore his weaknesses and overrate his accomplishments more than almost any other legend.

[Sir Charles]

This coming from the idiot that said Penny Hardaway was the best player in the league at one point. :roll: Atleast you got number 1 right and I have no problem with Hakeem at number 2.



Kareem is clearly number 1 and Shaq, Wilt and Olajuwon are all arguable from 2-4.

But I'm sorry there's no f*cking way Russell is ahead of them. Why is it ignored that Russell only dominated one end and was average at best offensively? Is that overlooked when talking about Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo? No, because Russell played with a ridiculous amount of hall of famers and great scorers in an era with just 7-8 teams. Does Mourning get credit for his defense the way he deserves too? How about Robinson? Each were two way players, so if defense is that important then why not rank guys like that higher?

Hakeem, Kareem and Shaq all made a much bigger impact defensively than Russell did offensively, and Kareem and Shaq were atleast as dominant offensively as Russell was defensively. Hakeem may have been too, but only for a 2 or 3 year stretch.

The only thing people can bring up for Russell when ranking him above guys like Shaq are the 11 rings which becomes a dumb argument when you consider he often played with 3 or 4 hall of famers at a time in their prime in a league with 1/4 the teams that Shaq plays against and Shaq still has 4 and a chance to win another. Then you consider that Shaq easily has longevity over Russell.

Don't get me wrong, Russell was a great player, a winner, a great leader and a top 5 center of all time, but people ignore his weaknesses and overrate his accomplishments more than almost any other legend.

:applause:

ROBINSON >>>>>>>>>>>>> Russell Any Day...Just Watch the Videos...

7 GOAT CENTERS OF ALL TIME

1-WILT
2-KAREEM
3-HAKEEM/SHAQ
4-SHAQ/HAKEEM
5-SABONIS
6-ROBINSON
7-MOSES MALONE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Yung D-Will]

Duncan>Malone>Barkley end conversation for thread.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kareem is clearly number 1 and Shaq, Wilt and Olajuwon are all arguable from 2-4.

Jabbar superior to Chamberlain? :roll:


Don't get me wrong, Russell was a great player, a winner, a great leader and a top 5 center of all time, but people ignore his weaknesses and overrate his accomplishments more than almost any other legend.

Alas thou shares the kindred creedence of the common man disputing the likes of Bill Russell, which the wise man shan't all but respectfully disagree.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Jabbar superior to Chamberlain? :roll:


Yeah for proof just look at Kareem's 6 rings, 6 MVP's, career points and 21 seasons. Compare that to Wilt's 2 rings, 4 MVP's and 14 seasons.

[chitownsfinest]

Jabbar superior to Chamberlain? :roll:


Abe, I have no problem with you thinking Wilt is the GOAT, but what exactly about Wilt makes him greater then MJ and KAJ? Wilt, imo, is the third greatest player of all time.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yeah for proof just look at Kareem's 6 rings, 6 MVP's, career points and 21 seasons. Compare that to Wilt's 2 rings, 4 MVP's and 14 seasons.
Here be the wise words of the wise man.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html

[Abraham Lincoln]

Abe, I have no problem with you thinking Wilt is the GOAT, but what exactly about Wilt makes him greater then MJ and KAJ? Wilt, imo, is the third greatest player of all time.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wilt's greatest accomplishment was his 1966-1967 which ranks up there with anyone's best season. It's too bad that he spent the first half of his career playing for stats instead. There's a reason that when you saw him change his game to a more unselfish style that his teams started winning a lot like in 1967 or 1972. The 50 ppg season is impressive obviously, but give Shaq or Kareem 39.5 shots per game and I bet they average around 50 as well.

[chitownsfinest]

Here be the wise words of the wise man.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html
LMAO @ citing something made by a known Jordan hater

[Bigsmoke]

great... now this thread has Sir Charles posting again.

[Bigsmoke]

1-WILT
2-KAREEM
3-HAKEEM/SHAQ
4-SHAQ/HAKEEM
5-SABONIS
6-ROBINSON
7-MOSES MALONE


what!?


and

Moses Malone > David Robinson

[Sir Charles]

what!?


and

Moses Malone > David Robinson

Duncan is really right tehre with Sabonis and behined Robinson

Yes Robinson > Moses

:confusedshrug:

[Sir Charles]

Barkley > Malone

Anyone who saw the game before 1996 knows this :confusedshrug:

[Bigsmoke]

Duncan is really right tehre with Sabonis and behined Robinson

Yes Robinson > Moses

:confusedshrug:


are we talking about the same Sabonis?

that guy who played for the Blazers with Pippen and those guys?

what makes him so good again?

[Sir Charles]

are we talking about the same Sabonis?

that guy who played for the Blazers with Pippen and those guys?

what makes him so good again?

And 80s Sabonis has nothing to do with a 90s Sabonis trust me

[CB4GOATPF]

Some not very known mix

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwxGTjEwcg8

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[IInvented]

Sir Charles, why you posting on 2 accounts?
And no, Tim Duncan is the GOAT PF..

[CB4GOATPF]

Sir Charles, why you posting on 2 accounts?
And no, Tim Duncan is the GOAT PF..

I don`t use the other email which i registered my nick etc....if they give me the other password or direct that one to my other mail then i will use it

Duncan is Better than Barkley in "1" aspect of the game "Interior Defense"

Other "Aspects"? Barkley owns "ALL"...

Duncan has played Center most of his Career and Still does...he ain`t a PF more of a CF like Hakeem

Greetings

[IInvented]

I don`t use the other email which i registered my nick etc....if they give me the other password or direct that one to my other mail then i will use it

Duncan is Better than Barkley in "1" aspect of the game "Interior Defense"

Other "Aspects"? Barkley owns "ALL"...

Duncan has played Center most of his Career and Still does...he ain`t a PF more of a CF like Hakeem

Greetings



:lol: @ you saing Duncan only better at 1 aspect.. Shot blocking? Defense? Ships? Leadership? Making teammates better? etc.. Anyways, Barkley is one of my faves all time.. I read his book called "OUTRAGEOUS".. funny shit man.. I respect him a lot.. He's a great guy.. He's in my top 10 all time players.. Top 3 PF's.. but he's in no way better than Duncan.. Everyone considers Duncan, the GOAT PF, while you here trynna tell us differently..

[ClutchCity95]

Even if Tim Duncan had no championships, He would still be better than Malone and Barkley due to Duncan's defense, unselfishness and Fundamentals. Tim Duncan having 4 championships is just a complete shortcut to prove that he's the Greatest Power Forward to ever play. Plain and simple. Duncan is the undisputed GOAT PF.

[Dbrog]

The 93' Suns were far more talented than any of Duncan's title winning teams.

This. WTF is wrong with some of you people in this thread? It isn't even a discussion. Duncan > every power forward ever.

For people saying Duncan played C most of his career, WTF are you talking about? Duncan's entire time with Robinson (retired after 03 season) was the PF. Then, he was STILL PF for years with the likes of Nesterovic, Mohammad and Elson at center. He has only recently started playing center (even though Bonner guards most of the opposing centers) because there is literally NO one else on the team that is a center.

Get your facts straight people!

[rosonviyavong]

Tim Duncan im sorry

[Silverbullit]

Dirk is the best power forward of all time (who played for the Mavericks and was born in Germany)
:D

[IInvented]

Dirk is the best power forward of all time (who played for the Mavericks and was born in Germany)
:D

Your joke failed.. :D

[DirtBag]

:lol: @ you saing Duncan only better at 1 aspect.. Shot blocking? Defense? Ships? Leadership? Making teammates better? etc.. Anyways, Barkley is one of my faves all time.. I read his book called "OUTRAGEOUS".. funny shit man.. I respect him a lot.. He's a great guy.. He's in my top 10 all time players.. Top 3 PF's.. but he's in no way better than Duncan.. Everyone considers Duncan, the GOAT PF, while you here trynna tell us differently..

do you mean 'chips?

[DirtBag]

Duncan has played Center most of his Career and Still does...he ain`t a PF more of a CF like Hakeem



Yep, he plays center but they list him at PF because they know that Yao would destroy him in all star game voting.

[IInvented]

do you mean 'chips?

Yea.. I always get that shit mixed up..
Props 4 noticing.. :bowdown:

[DirtBag]

I wasn't trying to be an ass... although I guess I was since we all knew thats what you meant. Mi Mal

[ShaqAttack3234]

For people saying Duncan played C most of his career, WTF are you talking about? Duncan's entire time with Robinson (retired after 03 season) was the PF. Then, he was STILL PF for years with the likes of Nesterovic, Mohammad and Elson at center. He has only recently started playing center (even though Bonner guards most of the opposing centers) because there is literally NO one else on the team that is a center.

Get your facts straight people!

Duncan and Robinson were both centers. They played in a 2 center lineup just like Hakeem and Sampson or like Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu who were both small forwards playing alongside eachother. Just like some teams play 3 guard lineups and by the way Francisco Elson only played 19 mpg for the Spurs in 2007 which explains why according to 82 games the vast majority of Duncan's minutes were spent at center in the regular season and playoffs, this was no different in the regular season/playoffs in 2007-2008, 2008-2009 or the 2006 playoffs.

In fact even in 2004-2005 during the regular season and playoffs Duncan spent more minutes at center than power forward according to 82games.com.

By the way Robinson didn't even play 30 mpg his last 3 seasons in San Antonio and as a result Duncan shared the floor with 6'6" Malik Rose at PF a lot.

[momo]

No.

People confuse skillset with greatness and while it is a factor it is in no way the only factor. Bark needed a better work ethic and to be a great defender on top of having an off the charts skillset in order to qualify as GOAT PF.

[Horatio33]

Yea.. I always get that shit mixed up..
Props 4 noticing.. :bowdown:


Ships is right, the whole word is championSHIP, not championCHIP.

sir charles knows my feelings about duncan and barkley. duncan and garnett are better than barkley. the only way barkley got to be so famous was his skills were perfect for highlight clips. and his outrageous comments. casual fans want to see dunks and hear soundbites, not defensive rotations, and box-outs. (barkley never boxed-out after his first practice at auburn, his assistant coach said he was missing rebounds by boxing out. amazing how great he was at rebounding with-out boxing out. read I may be wrong but I doubt it.)

[MaxFly]

Tim Duncan is the best PF in the history of the NBA by a good margin.

Easily...

Why is this even a thread?

[Bigsmoke]

People forget defense and work ethic are also important to judge a player.
Therefore : Tim Duncan, Malone and Bob Pettit > Barkley.
People forget about Pettit. He won a title as the man. 2 time MVP and just like Karl Malone, he was all nba first team for almost his entire career.


Bob Pettit sucked at defense...

[Godfather]

I would have expected better from you Abe.

Why must you completely disregard one side of the ball...defense.

[magnax1]

Barkley has a case, but I'd put him tied in second with Duncan. I think KG is the best power forward ever. I know most people disagree though. I could pull down a list of reasons for KG as the best power forward ever though.
1-KG
2-Barkley/duncan
3-Malone
4-Petit
5-Hayes

[branslowski]

:oldlol: @ Barkley being better than Duncan...F*cking idiots...

Then comes the "If my man had your mans team, this would happen and I know this for a fact because it's my hypothical opinion"...

But as shows with this argument (basically if comparing Barkley and Duncan since Duncan is the Greatest Power Forward) you can't even use the "If he had his team" BS without getting a lol thrown at you because it shows that you completly ignored the GREAT team Barkley had in 93'...Way better than Duncan's 03' Team IMO...

[CB4GOATPF]

Even if Tim Duncan had no championships, He would still be better than Malone and Barkley due to Duncan's defense, unselfishness and Fundamentals. Tim Duncan having 4 championships is just a complete shortcut to prove that he's the Greatest Power Forward to ever play. Plain and simple. Duncan is the undisputed GOAT PF.

:oldlol:

Barkley was way less unselfish than Duncan. He shot less FGAs PG and Was Way More Effective Scorer

Barkley was a Way! Way! Better Offensive Player
Superior Handles
Superior Spins
Superior SHooting
Superior 1 on 1 Off the Dribble Drives
Superior Foot Work
Better Scorer
Better Passer
Better Game Creator, even Lead Breaks...
Better Floor Defender
Better Stealer
Clutcher Las Second Shooter or Game Designer
Better Rebounder
Better FT Shooter
More Skilled In the Post or a Away from The Post
Created More Offensive Trouble
Brought in More Double Teaming even 15 away from the Rim!
Needed More Defensive Rotations than Any other Player from his Era
Created Most Ilegal Defenses in the 80s and Early 90s
They had to Make a Rule Against him "Anti Barkley 5 Second Back to the Basket Rule"
Way Way More Intimidating
Stronger
Faster
More Agil
More Explosive and Potent
A Better Leaper,
A Better Athleate etc...

Duncan is Better than Barkley as an "Interior Defender" NOTHING ELSE..

[IInvented]

Ships is right, the whole word is championSHIP, not championCHIP.

sir charles knows my feelings about duncan and barkley. duncan and garnett are better than barkley. the only way barkley got to be so famous was his skills were perfect for highlight clips. and his outrageous comments. casual fans want to see dunks and hear soundbites, not defensive rotations, and box-outs. (barkley never boxed-out after his first practice at auburn, his assistant coach said he was missing rebounds by boxing out. amazing how great he was at rebounding with-out boxing out. read I may be wrong but I doubt it.)

I know dumb ass.. I made a mistake? :confusedshrug:

[CB4GOATPF]

Ships is right, the whole word is championSHIP, not championCHIP.

sir charles knows my feelings about duncan and barkley. duncan and garnett are better than barkley. the only way barkley got to be so famous was his skills were perfect for highlight clips. and his outrageous comments. casual fans want to see dunks and hear soundbites, not defensive rotations, and box-outs. (barkley never boxed-out after his first practice at auburn, his assistant coach said he was missing rebounds by boxing out. amazing how great he was at rebounding with-out boxing out. read I may be wrong but I doubt it.)

:oldlol: :roll: :banghead: :hammerhead:

Pathetic comments...that is what Lincon and me and others laugh at people who think that Barkley was all Flash, Dunks, Coast to Coasts or Pure Power...that is the part i least liked about Barkley which ofcourse gave him more color (why not? it does give Shaq and other similar power players an add) or because he was one of the MOST INTIMIDATIING PLAYERS OF ALL TIME....and yes back then when he could leap and move people where afraid to Stand in Barkley`s way and didn`t even care to look "straight to his eyes"

"Dennis You are Not Afraid of Shaq, Malone etc..it seems you are not afraid of Guarding anyone, who are you afraid of? Dennis Rodman: "Charles Barkley" :confusedshrug:

But...Who ever thinks Barkley was just outrageous comments, dunks, power and flash is totally mistaken and pretty much a real troll:no: . I

In fact Barkley was one of the most hated and envied players by the Media and the coaches because of his outspoken demenor (now loved because of his jokes etc and he isn`t there kicken ass and recieving hate all day MORE THAN ANY OTHER SUPERSTAR EVER)...but under all that mentioned...truth is...

Barkley had one of the Most Refined, Beutifully Timed Mid Range and Post Foot Games of All Time! Also, One of the Smartest Players of All Time (Magic Johnson`s Comments)

Barkley was a hybrid between a 6`5 Shaq with better handles, witts and court vision along with a mixture of Adrian Dantley`s and Bernard King`s Mid Range Game and Rodman`s "hustule and don`t give a **** attitude"

Barkley`s timing to split off double teams is unseen in NBA History...even when the whole contraty team positioned the game towards destroying his every movements they couldn`t...He was like the Oscar Robertson but the through "timing when the double teams came" (Doug Collins can tell you this).

He could see the game like a Guard-Forward and Center at the same time many times...both Offensively and Defensively...somethin rare to today`s players...

Also you think Barkley got his rebounds because of his Sheer Determination and nothing else? :oldlol: :roll: :no: That`s like saying Rodman had no Timing, Boxing Out Skills, Angle Notion to where the Ball would fall etc to get Rebounds.

Barkley is by far one of the Most Skilled Players off All Time, Most Similar Player to Bird in Anticipation... I`ve seen at the Forward spot and Superior to Duncan in ANY ASPECT of the Game but "Interior Defense" (Due to Length and Height)

Not to forget that Skillwise he is miles ahead of Malone, Duncan or Garnett. Webber comes close and Coleman (would have been a Top 3 PF of All Time) but Barkley had that with Shaq-Like Effecitiveness and an Agressiveness Unseen before in the NBA.

A Reiminder of Barkley`s Movements while not even pissed off playing relaxed and as always unselfish...


Destroying Gatling, Webber, Houston, Sprewell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdMW4Hi8yI

This is what happened every time you did not double Barkley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grUpwMYlRVk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7NCcOoFd1w&feature=related


Best PF in his Prime by Miles.... :confusedshrug:

[Bush4Ever]

Interior defense is one of the most critical aspects to the PF position.

Barkley was one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

Duncan was a legendary defender.

That is simply way too far of a gap to overcome with the other aspects of the game. They are almost at the exact opposite ends of the spectrum.

[CB4GOATPF]

Ships is right, the whole word is championSHIP, not championCHIP.

sir charles knows my feelings about duncan and barkley. duncan and garnett are better than barkley. the only way barkley got to be so famous was his skills were perfect for highlight clips. and his outrageous comments. casual fans want to see dunks and hear soundbites, not defensive rotations, and box-outs. (barkley never boxed-out after his first practice at auburn, his assistant coach said he was missing rebounds by boxing out. amazing how great he was at rebounding with-out boxing out. read I may be wrong but I doubt it.)

:oldlol: :roll: :banghead: :hammerhead:

Pathetic comments...that is what Lincon and me and others laugh at people who think that Barkley was all Flash, Dunks, Coast to Coasts or Pure Power...that is the part i least liked about Barkley which ofcourse gave him more color (why not? it does give Shaq and other similar power players an add) or because he was one of the MOST INTIMIDATIING PLAYERS OF ALL TIME....and yes back then when he could leap and move people where afraid to Stand in Barkley`s way and didn`t even care to look "straight to his eyes"

"Dennis You are Not Afraid of Shaq, Malone etc..it seems you are not afraid of Guarding anyone, who are you afraid of? Dennis Rodman: "Charles Barkley" :confusedshrug:

But...Who ever thinks Barkley was just outrageous comments, dunks, power and flash is totally mistaken and pretty much a real troll:no: . I

In fact Barkley was one of the most hated and envied players by the Media and the coaches because of his outspoken demenor (now loved because of his jokes etc and he isn`t there kicken ass and recieving hate all day MORE THAN ANY OTHER SUPERSTAR EVER)...but under all that mentioned...truth is...

Barkley had one of the Most Refined and Timed Mid Range and Foot Post Moves of All Time! and One of the Smartest Players of All Time (Magic Johnson`s Comments)

Barkley was a hybrid between a 6`5 Shaq with better handles, witts and court vision along with a Adrian Dantley`s and Bernard King`s Mid Range Game.

Barkley`s timing to split off double teams is unseen in NBA History...even when the whole contraty team positioned the game towards destroying his every movements they couldn`t...He was like the Oscar Robertson but the through "timing when the double teams came" (Doug Collins can tell you this).

He could see the game like a Guard-Forward and Center at the same time many times..

Also you think Barkley got his rebounds because of his Sheer Determination and nothing else? :oldlol: :roll: :no: That`s like saying Rodman had no Timing, Boxing Out Skills, Angle Notion to where the Ball would fall etc to get Rebounds.

Barkley is by far one of the Most Skilled Players off All Time, Most Similar Player to Bird in Anticipation... I`ve seen at the Forward spot and Superior to Duncan in ANY ASPECT of the Game but "Interior Defense" (Due to Length and Height)

Not to forget that Skillwise he is miles ahead of Malone, Duncan or Garnett. Webber comes close and Coleman (would have been a Top 3 PF of All Time) but Barkley had that with Shaq-Like Effecitiveness and an Agressiveness Unseen before in the NBA.

A Reiminder of Barkley`s Movements while not even pissed off playing relaxed and as always unselfish...


Destroying Gatling, Webber, Houston, Sprewell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAdMW4Hi8yI

This is what happened every time you did not double Barkley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grUpwMYlRVk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7NCcOoFd1w&feature=related


Best PF in his Prime by Miles.... :confusedshrug:

[CB4GOATPF]

Interior defense is one of the most critical aspects to the PF position.

Barkley was one of the worst defenders in the league at his position.

Duncan was a legendary defender.

That is simply way too far of a gap to overcome with the other aspects of the game. They are almost at the exact opposite ends of the spectrum.

Barkley was Legendary Offensive Player, Play Maker, They Had to Change the Rules to go Against his Dominating Game, Way Better All Around Player, Floor Defender, Skilled Player, Clutcher, More Intimidating etc of TOO MANY THINGS HE HAD OVER DUNCAN....

BTW when Barkley wanted to Play D he could play it and "When he actually had an Above Average Defensive Center in his Prime days" (a luxioury that Karl Malone and Duncan have had) he was a Top Defender in the League:

Defensive Rating

1985-86 NBA 100.5 (7)
*Only Year with Moses still at Center (Not the Best Of Defensive Centers but a Good One Atleat)

Defensive Rating

1. Bill Walton*-BOS 97.5
2. Alton Lister-MIL 98.4
3. Manute Bol-WSB 98.9
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 99.4
5. Mark Eaton-UTA 100.0
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 100.5
7. Charles Barkley*-PHI 100.5
8. Terry Cummings-MIL 100.6
9. Randy Breuer-MIL 100.7
10. Paul Pressey-MIL 101.3
11. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 101.4
12. Karl Malone-UTA 101.5
13. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 101.6
14. Tree Rollins-ATL 102.0
15. Wayne Cooper-DEN 102.0
16. Kurt Rambis-LAL 102.2
17. Cliff Robinson-WSB 102.4
18. Charles Jones-WSB 102.6
19. Kevin McHale*-BOS 102.6
20. Alvin Robertson-SAS


Defensive Win Shares

1. Larry Bird*-BOS 6.1
2. Charles Barkley*-PHI 5.4
3. Terry Cummings-MIL 4.9
4. Mark Eaton-UTA 4.9
5. Paul Pressey-MIL 4.7
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 4.7
7. Alvin Robertson-SAS 4.6
8. Karl Malone-UTA 4.3
9. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 4.3
10. Jack Sikma-SEA 4.2
11. Manute Bol-WSB 4.1
12. Herb Williams-IND 4.1
13. Buck Williams-NJN 4.1
14. Ralph Sampson-HOU 4.0
15. Cliff Robinson-WSB 4.0
16. Bill Laimbeer-DET 3.9
17. Alton Lister-MIL 3.8
18. Kevin McHale*-BOS 3.8
19. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL

Some players are just "Lucky to Play with Great Defensive Teams and TEAMATES" others Aren`t..

Some players aren`t as lucky as Duncan, Bryant and some others...

[Bush4Ever]

Barkley was Legendary Offensive Player, Play Maker, They Had to Change the Rules to go Against his Dominating Game, Way Better All Around Player, Floor Defender, Skilled Player, Clutcher, More Intimidating etc of TOO MANY THINGS HE HAD OVER DUNCAN....

BTW when Barkley wanted to Play D he could play it and "When he actually had an Above Average Defensive Center in his Prime days" (a luxioury that Karl Malone and Duncan have had) he was a Top Defender in the League:

Defensive Rating

1985-86 NBA 100.5 (7)
*Only Year with Moses still at Center (Not the Best Of Defensive Centers but a Good One Atleat)

Defensive Rating

1. Bill Walton*-BOS 97.5
2. Alton Lister-MIL 98.4
3. Manute Bol-WSB 98.9
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 99.4
5. Mark Eaton-UTA 100.0
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 100.5
7. Charles Barkley*-PHI 100.5
8. Terry Cummings-MIL 100.6
9. Randy Breuer-MIL 100.7
10. Paul Pressey-MIL 101.3
11. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 101.4
12. Karl Malone-UTA 101.5
13. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 101.6

Some players are just "Lucky to Play with Great Defensive Teams" others Aren`t..

Some players aren`t as lucky as Duncan, Bryant and some others...


CHARLES BARKLEY HIMSELF admitted he was a terrible defender and didn't give a spit about playing defense. I think I'll take his word over yours, no offense.

[CB4GOATPF]

CHARLES BARKLEY HIMSELF admitted he was a terrible defender and didn't give a spit about playing defense. I think I'll take his word over yours, no offense.

Broken Down stats suggest he wasn`t when he had an above average defending Center when prime and for only 1 season as a starter:

Well he averaged 2.2 SPG and 1.6 BPG that Season..

How Many Forward can do that? Sooo Many....:rolleyes:

Don`t confuse..."Being a Lazy Defender"..."Not Caring"...for "Not being Able to Defend"

Broken Down Stats suggest Barkley was a Top 7 Defender that Year and just look at the players next to him. Some players right there that where great defenders had ANOTHER GREAT DEFENDER in his Team...Barkley didn`t. Its so much easier for your own Defense when you play with Great Defenders and Defending Teams next to you...

Next..

[Bush4Ever]

Broken Down stats suggest he wasn`t when he had an above average defending Center when prime and for only 1 season as a starter:

Well he averaged 2.2 SPG and 1.6 BPG that Season..

How Many Forward can do that? Sooo Many....:rolleyes:

Don`t confuse..."Being a Lazy Defender"..."Not Caring"...for "Not being Able to Defend"

Broken Down Stats suggest Barkley was a Top 7 Defender that Year and just look at the players next to him. Some players right there that where great defenders had ANOTHER GREAT DEFENDER in his Team...Barkley didn`t. Its so much easier for your own Defense when you play with Great Defenders and Defending Teams next to you...

Next..

Yes, because steals and blocks in a single season equate to great defense.

So BARKLEY'S words about his own defensive incompetence is not enough....how about the words of Dr. Jack Ramsay?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ramsay_drjack&id=1734435

But Charles didn't see the importance of defense unless it was required at the very end of a game. When I was working television games for the Sixers, Charles was their main gun. I gave him full credit for his incredible exploits on offense, but I also noted when he was slow getting back on defense, not playing his man, or failing to give needed weak-side help.

Before a game one night, I was in the Sixers locker room when Charles came in, and seeing me exclaimed, "Jack, you're killing me on TV about my defense. Why do you have to do that?" His teammates, in various states of readiness for the game, stopped what they were doing to listen. I told him, "Charles, I can only say what I see. When you do good things on offense, I say it, but when you loaf on defense, I say that, too." The other players all grinned at me and nodded in agreement. But Charles dismissed the subject, saying, "I can't play defense and score and rebound too."

Charles had his own mind-set about how he should play, and none of his coaches could ever alter it with any consistency. He seemed to feel that since he gave his full effort to offense -and indeed performed wonderful feats there - he shouldn't be required to work as hard on defense. And it wasn't because he lacked defensive skills.

I had seen him force Magic Johnson into a poor percentage shot on a last possession in a Sixers-Lakers game that Philly won. He also had a knack for stealing the ball from high-post players that resulted in open-court layups. But overall, Charles seemed to regard defense as the time during which he could catch his breath, not pressure his man, and nobody could change his mind about that.

It was unfortunate because he became a weak spot in his team's defense that opponents didn't hesitate to exploit - and that characteristic prevents Charles from being included among the all-round great players of the game.

[Da_Realist]

Yes, because steals and blocks in a single season equate to great defense.

So BARKLEY'S words about his own defensive incompetence is not enough....how about the words of Dr. Jack Ramsay?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ramsay_drjack&id=1734435

But Charles didn't see the importance of defense unless it was required at the very end of a game. When I was working television games for the Sixers, Charles was their main gun. I gave him full credit for his incredible exploits on offense, but I also noted when he was slow getting back on defense, not playing his man, or failing to give needed weak-side help.

Before a game one night, I was in the Sixers locker room when Charles came in, and seeing me exclaimed, "Jack, you're killing me on TV about my defense. Why do you have to do that?" His teammates, in various states of readiness for the game, stopped what they were doing to listen. I told him, "Charles, I can only say what I see. When you do good things on offense, I say it, but when you loaf on defense, I say that, too." The other players all grinned at me and nodded in agreement. But Charles dismissed the subject, saying, "I can't play defense and score and rebound too."

Charles had his own mind-set about how he should play, and none of his coaches could ever alter it with any consistency. He seemed to feel that since he gave his full effort to offense -and indeed performed wonderful feats there - he shouldn't be required to work as hard on defense. And it wasn't because he lacked defensive skills.

I had seen him force Magic Johnson into a poor percentage shot on a last possession in a Sixers-Lakers game that Philly won. He also had a knack for stealing the ball from high-post players that resulted in open-court layups. But overall, Charles seemed to regard defense as the time during which he could catch his breath, not pressure his man, and nobody could change his mind about that.

It was unfortunate because he became a weak spot in his team's defense that opponents didn't hesitate to exploit - and that characteristic prevents Charles from being included among the all-round great players of the game.



DAMN Jack Ramsey broke it down like only a coach could. He has a great basketball mind.

[CB4GOATPF]

Barkley was Legendary Offensive Player, Play Maker, They Had to Change the Rules to go Against his Dominating Game, Way Better All Around Player, Floor Defender, Skilled Player, Clutcher, More Intimidating etc of TOO MANY THINGS HE HAD OVER DUNCAN....

BTW when Barkley wanted to Play D he could play it and "When he actually had an Above Average Defensive Center in his Prime days" (a luxioury that Karl Malone and Duncan have had) he was a Top Defender in the League:

Defensive Rating

1985-86 NBA 100.5 (7)
*Only Year with Moses still at Center (Not the Best Of Defensive Centers but a Good One Atleat)

Defensive Rating

1. Bill Walton*-BOS 97.5
2. Alton Lister-MIL 98.4
3. Manute Bol-WSB 98.9
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 99.4
5. Mark Eaton-UTA 100.0
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 100.5
7. Charles Barkley*-PHI 100.5
8. Terry Cummings-MIL 100.6
9. Randy Breuer-MIL 100.7
10. Paul Pressey-MIL 101.3
11. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 101.4
12. Karl Malone-UTA 101.5
13. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 101.6
14. Tree Rollins-ATL 102.0
15. Wayne Cooper-DEN 102.0
16. Kurt Rambis-LAL 102.2
17. Cliff Robinson-WSB 102.4
18. Charles Jones-WSB 102.6
19. Kevin McHale*-BOS 102.6
20. Alvin Robertson-SAS


Defensive Win Shares

1. Larry Bird*-BOS 6.1
2. Charles Barkley*-PHI 5.4
3. Terry Cummings-MIL 4.9
4. Mark Eaton-UTA 4.9
5. Paul Pressey-MIL 4.7
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 4.7
7. Alvin Robertson-SAS 4.6
8. Karl Malone-UTA 4.3
9. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 4.3
10. Jack Sikma-SEA 4.2
11. Manute Bol-WSB 4.1
12. Herb Williams-IND 4.1
13. Buck Williams-NJN 4.1
14. Ralph Sampson-HOU 4.0
15. Cliff Robinson-WSB 4.0
16. Bill Laimbeer-DET 3.9
17. Alton Lister-MIL 3.8
18. Kevin McHale*-BOS 3.8
19. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL

Some players are just "Lucky to Play with Great Defensive Teams and TEAMATES" others Aren`t..

Some players aren`t as lucky as Duncan, Bryant and some others...

None have explained the coincidence that when he was in his prime and finally had an Above Average Defensive Type Center Next to him he was 7th in Defensive Rating...

:violin:

[CB4GOATPF]

Barkley was Legendary Offensive Player, Play Maker, They Had to Change the Rules to go Against his Dominating Game, Way Better All Around Player, Floor Defender, Skilled Player, Clutcher, More Intimidating etc of TOO MANY THINGS HE HAD OVER DUNCAN....

BTW when Barkley wanted to Play D he could play it and "When he actually had an Above Average Defensive Center in his Prime days" (a luxioury that Karl Malone and Duncan have had) he was a Top Defender in the League:

Defensive Rating

1985-86 NBA 100.5 (7)
*Only Year with Moses still at Center (Not the Best Of Defensive Centers but a Good One Atleat)

Defensive Rating

1. Bill Walton*-BOS 97.5
2. Alton Lister-MIL 98.4
3. Manute Bol-WSB 98.9
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 99.4
5. Mark Eaton-UTA 100.0
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 100.5
7. Charles Barkley*-PHI 100.5
8. Terry Cummings-MIL 100.6
9. Randy Breuer-MIL 100.7
10. Paul Pressey-MIL 101.3
11. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 101.4
12. Karl Malone-UTA 101.5
13. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 101.6
14. Tree Rollins-ATL 102.0
15. Wayne Cooper-DEN 102.0
16. Kurt Rambis-LAL 102.2
17. Cliff Robinson-WSB 102.4
18. Charles Jones-WSB 102.6
19. Kevin McHale*-BOS 102.6
20. Alvin Robertson-SAS


Defensive Win Shares

1. Larry Bird*-BOS 6.1
2. Charles Barkley*-PHI 5.4
3. Terry Cummings-MIL 4.9
4. Mark Eaton-UTA 4.9
5. Paul Pressey-MIL 4.7
6. Robert Parish*-BOS 4.7
7. Alvin Robertson-SAS 4.6
8. Karl Malone-UTA 4.3
9. Hakeem Olajuwon*-HOU 4.3
10. Jack Sikma-SEA 4.2
11. Manute Bol-WSB 4.1
12. Herb Williams-IND 4.1
13. Buck Williams-NJN 4.1
14. Ralph Sampson-HOU 4.0
15. Cliff Robinson-WSB 4.0
16. Bill Laimbeer-DET 3.9
17. Alton Lister-MIL 3.8
18. Kevin McHale*-BOS 3.8
19. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL

Some players are just "Lucky to Play with Great Defensive Teams and TEAMATES" others Aren`t..

Some players aren`t as lucky as Duncan, Bryant and some others...

Still no one has explained to me how when Charles had a "Decent Defensive Center" something than Duncan, Malone and McHale have always had...(Props to Garnett too for not) Barkley was 7th in Defensive Rating.

He was lazy sometimes but he could play Defense....proof is right there...

[stejay]

No man. I'm sorry, but it has to be Duncan for me. He is definately second, but in my opinion, Duncan is dominant

[Juges8932]

Tim Duncan is GOAT PF, Charles has stated such every time Timmy D is brought up.

[Juges8932]

Yes, because steals and blocks in a single season equate to great defense.

So BARKLEY'S words about his own defensive incompetence is not enough....how about the words of Dr. Jack Ramsay?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ramsay_drjack&id=1734435

But Charles didn't see the importance of defense unless it was required at the very end of a game. When I was working television games for the Sixers, Charles was their main gun. I gave him full credit for his incredible exploits on offense, but I also noted when he was slow getting back on defense, not playing his man, or failing to give needed weak-side help.

Before a game one night, I was in the Sixers locker room when Charles came in, and seeing me exclaimed, "Jack, you're killing me on TV about my defense. Why do you have to do that?" His teammates, in various states of readiness for the game, stopped what they were doing to listen. I told him, "Charles, I can only say what I see. When you do good things on offense, I say it, but when you loaf on defense, I say that, too." The other players all grinned at me and nodded in agreement. But Charles dismissed the subject, saying, "I can't play defense and score and rebound too."

Charles had his own mind-set about how he should play, and none of his coaches could ever alter it with any consistency. He seemed to feel that since he gave his full effort to offense -and indeed performed wonderful feats there - he shouldn't be required to work as hard on defense. And it wasn't because he lacked defensive skills.

I had seen him force Magic Johnson into a poor percentage shot on a last possession in a Sixers-Lakers game that Philly won. He also had a knack for stealing the ball from high-post players that resulted in open-court layups. But overall, Charles seemed to regard defense as the time during which he could catch his breath, not pressure his man, and nobody could change his mind about that.

It was unfortunate because he became a weak spot in his team's defense that opponents didn't hesitate to exploit - and that characteristic prevents Charles from being included among the all-round great players of the game.



Very well said.

[CB4GOATPF]

In his Prime Was Never Outplayed by Any at his Position (even with pathetic teamates) even as a crippled man owned Garnett and Duncan...

Quote CB4PF of All Time:

"Nobody at My Position Can Out Play Me and No Single Player Can Guard Me" :pimp: :confusedshrug:

Larry Bird Quote:

"I Don`t think Any Player Today Can Guard a 1992 Barkley"
"At the Last Second I Would Give the Ball to Charles in the Paint, The Way He Was Dominanting, People Where Afraid of Him in the early 90s"

Dennis Rodman after this question: "Dennis you are not afraid of guarding Shaq, guarding Malone...are you afraid of anyone"

Dennis: "Charles Barkley"

[sirkeelma]

"Nobody at My Position Can Out Play Me and No Single Player Can Guard Me" :pimp: :confusedshrug:

Because there is no Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan at that time.:no:

[Bigsmoke]

Still no one has explained to me how when Charles had a "Decent Defensive Center" something than Duncan, Malone and McHale have always had...(Props to Garnett too for not) Barkley was 7th in Defensive Rating.

He was lazy sometimes but he could play Defense....proof is right there...

those stats are wack dude... you're saying Barkley plays better D than Hakeem?

[CB4GOATPF]

those stats are wack dude... you're saying Barkley plays better D than Hakeem?

Read Back....:no:

[CB4GOATPF]

Because there is no Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan at that time.:no:

Yes there was...and both got owned :confusedshrug:

Barkley owned Malone in their primes ages 22-32 (70% of their confrontations)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135370

*Malone could only get the best out of Barkley when Barkley could hardly play, move or leap

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Garnett while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 33-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=garneke01

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Duncan while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 34-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[BA_God]

Yes there was...and both got owned :confusedshrug:

Barkley owned Malone in their primes ages 22-32 (70% of their confrontations)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135370

*Malone could only get the best out of Barkley when Barkley could hardly play, move or leap

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Garnett while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 33-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=garneke01

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barkley owned Duncan while crippled, overweight and injury prone at ages 34-36

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=barklch01&p2=duncati01

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Duncan's team won 6 out of 8 games. 5 in a row in his second year.
does this mean Duncan got owned by Barkley?

Garnett got owned by Barkley back then, because he was so skinny and raw material.
But Duncan's game already surpassed barkley's then.

[CB4GOATPF]

Duncan's team won 6 out of 8 games. 5 in a row in his second year.
does this mean Duncan got owned by Barkley?


His Teams won but Barkley owned him.... :confusedshrug:

Garnett got owned by Barkley back then, because he was so skinny and raw material.

Skinny at ages 21-23? :no:

Then i could say Barkley was too much overweight (288 lbs in Houston), could not leap, run, jump, major back problems and suffered a major knee injury in 1997 which caused him to drop his game in 98.

But Duncan's game already surpassed barkley's then

"Game"? :rolleyes: :oldlol: Ohhh Please...Shot Blocking & Interior Defense is the Only "Game" Duncan has over Barkley...

[04mzwach]

LMFAO, i think the OP was trying to discourage talk of Duncan > Barkley when he said Duncan was a center. Nobody needs a long discussion of Duncan > Barkley.

[1~Gibson~1]

He's from Auburn, he has to be the Greatest Power Forward of All-Time. Anyone else who thinks otherwise is a troll. :pimp:

Auburn Rulez :banana:

[CB4GOATPF]

LMFAO, i think the OP was trying to discourage talk of Duncan > Barkley when he said Duncan was a center. Nobody needs a long discussion of Duncan > Barkley.

There is proof that Duncan has been playing Center more than PF. Its like 65% of Time Playing Center and the Rest a "Hidden Center" in a "Twin Tower System". You are not a PF if you locate yourself where the other teams Center is and you do things that a Center does. A PF "Faces the Basket" and does not play back to the Basket 90% of the Time.

Duncan has nothing on Barkley even at ages 34-36 Barkley owned him.

ANY ASPECT OF THE GAME....BUT "Shot Blocking & Interior D" ...

BARKLEY OWNS DUNCAN :confusedshrug: