Scottie Pippen vs Clyde Drexler

[RocketGreatness]

Who do you guys think was the better player, who had the better career?
I found this comparison on another site and it seemed pretty eye popping and interesting so I am bringing it here.

I have Drexler ranked 4th in terms of shooting guards and I also have Pippen ranked 4th for small forwards. Problem with this comparison is Pippen didn't play enough being the 1st option, Drexler played a good amount of time at the end of his career being the 2nd option during his Rocket years. He won a championship being a 2nd option player behind Hakeem Olajuwon and none being the 1st option. Pippen won 6 championships being the 2nd option player to Jordan but none being the 1st option.

[magnax1]

Its not even close, clyde and kobe would be a more realistically close comparison.

[NBASTATMAN]

Its not even close, clyde and kobe would be a more realistically close comparison.


In their primes Clyde was a good bit better.. But Pippen had the better career... As far as winning titles.... Kobe and the glide are better comparisons but kobe is better than the glide....

[magnax1]

In their primes Clyde was a good bit better.. But Pippen had the better career... As far as winning titles.... Kobe and the glide are better comparisons but kobe is better than the glide....
Actually in winning titles kobe and pippen would be close, clyde won one and kobe won 4 vs pippens 6. Clyde had some really amazing seasons and is probably the third or fourth best shooting guard ever. Pippen might be close to that level on small forwards, but its a less close position in terms of competition.

[NotYetGreat]

Pippen had the better career, but as a player who carries his team, I think Clyde was better.

[magnax1]

You see, pippen may be really good, but I get this feeling that nobody would remember him if he wasn't paired with jordan. He'd get ignored like wilkins, mullin, baylor and others. Those three were all better than pippen, but nobody really thinks much of them anymore because they weren't stuck to michael jordan most of there career. Clyde is alot better than Pippen.

[D.J.]

Pippen had the better career. Primes are close, though Clyde gets the edge. Clyde Drexler in his prime was roughly 27 PPG/8 RPG/6 APG/3 SPG and about 50 percent from the field. Pippen was not quite the scorer, but was about equal in terms of rebounding, playmaking, and defense. If you want a prime player, you would want Clyde. He was at least equal in non-scoring aspects and could score more.

[Duncan21formvp]

Drexler

[RocketGreatness]

Pippen had the better career. Primes are close, though Clyde gets the edge. Clyde Drexler in his prime was roughly 27 PPG/8 RPG/6 APG/3 SPG and about 50 percent from the field. Pippen was not quite the scorer, but was about equal in terms of rebounding, playmaking, and defense. If you want a prime player, you would want Clyde. He was at least equal in non-scoring aspects and could score more.
Well if you ask me, the question is kind of like Defense vs Offense, which do you value more. That's why Pippen is arguably the greatest 2nd option to ever play the game, His defense. Pippen was the ultimate defender and arguably the greatest perimeter defender to ever play the game of basketball. He was also the prototypical point-forward and re-visited that position.

Back to the topic, I think Drexler was easily the better scorer and rebounder. However, Pippen has the edge at passing and defense. Hard to tell who was the better shooter, They were both average at best shooters.

[D.J.]

Well if you ask me, the question is kind of like Defense vs Offense, which do you value more. That's why Pippen is arguably the greatest 2nd option to ever play the game, His defense. Pippen was the ultimate defender and arguably the greatest perimeter defender to ever play the game of basketball. He was also the prototypical point-forward and re-visited that position.

Back to the topic, I think Drexler was easily the better scorer and rebounder. However, Pippen has the edge at passing and defense. Hard to tell who was the better shooter, They were both average at best shooters.


Clyde played very good defense as well. His passing also was quite good for someone that did not play the point regularly. Clyde could do just about anything Pippen could, plus he was the better scorer.

[miles berg]

Clyde, easily.

[RocketGreatness]

Clyde played very good defense as well. His passing also was quite good for someone that did not play the point regularly. Clyde could do just about anything Pippen could, plus he was the better scorer.
Well In my opinion,

Clyde's scoring gap against Pippen was shorter than Pippen's defense gap against Drexler. In other words, Pippen's Defense>Clyde's scoring.

I think maybe Dr. J vs Clyde would've been a better debate looking at it.

[Chalkmaze]

You see, pippen may be really good, but I get this feeling that nobody would remember him if he wasn't paired with jordan. He'd get ignored like wilkins, mullin, baylor and others. Those three were all better than pippen, but nobody really thinks much of them anymore because they weren't stuck to michael jordan most of there career. Clyde is alot better than Pippen.

I think there's an awful lot of truth to this.

[bizil]

Gotta go with the Glide. Clyde is one of the top 4 or 5 SG's of all time. He proved he could be the number one option and carry teams to the NBA finals twice. He then linked with Dream as the 2nd option and got a ring. As far as an all around player Pip you could say is better than Clyde. But Clyde was a scoring machine and he was still good all around. Clyde had averaged 8ast in a season. If Clyde didnt' dribble with his head down I would say he could play 1-2-3 all day like Mike, Pip, Bron, and Kobe. But with that said I gotta go Clyde. Clyde along with MJ revolutionized the two guard spot in the league. It's now to where the top two guards have to be top notch athletes or close to it, get 6-8 dimes, and 6-8 boards, and be top notch or close to it defenders. That package wasn't really required for two guards in the past. I think Jerry West for his timeframe dominated the two like that. But Mike and Clyde were 6'6 and 6'7 with Dr. J type athletic ability. It's almost like they combined West's domination all around of that position with Dr. J's athletic ability.

[kshutts1]

You see, pippen may be really good, but I get this feeling that nobody would remember him if he wasn't paired with jordan. He'd get ignored like wilkins, mullin, baylor and others. Those three were all better than pippen, but nobody really thinks much of them anymore because they weren't stuck to michael jordan most of there career. Clyde is alot better than Pippen.

...and if Jordan wasn't paired with Pippen, he wouldn't be remembered. What's your point? I can't think of a single player that has single-handedly won a title. Not one, and this includes "His Airness" MJ. The closest anyone has come to winning a title being a one man show is probably Iverson, although I don't know enough about the NBA prior to the 80's, so maybe there was a bigger one man show back then.

My point is just that everyone (except Iverson? lol) needs help, and no one... NO ONE... would be remembered the same if you changed their role players. We must judge on what we know, not what we "believe".

[Roundball_Rock]

People forget--once again because of the GOAT's massive shadow--that Scottie Pippen outplayed Clyde Drexler in the 92' finals. This is when Drexler was said to be the second best player in the NBA behind MJ.

Drexler: 25/8/5 41% shooting
Pippen: 21/8/8 48% shooting

It looks similar until you factor in two things: MJ and defense. MJ averaged 26 shots per game in the finals. Of course Drexler is going to score more when he does not have a guy on his team taking that many shots. Despite this, Pippen was close to him in scoring. Where Pippen leaves Drexler in the dust is defense. Pippen>Drexler in the 92' finals. This is why I :roll: @ those who harp on Pip never winning a FMVP. He had FMVP worthy performances four times, the two times he did not was when he was injured. He once had a FMVP caliber performance when he basically had only one functioning foot! The reason he never won a FMVP is because he played with the freaking GOAT! His finals performances, when healthy plus 97', were good enough to win FMVP in most series. In 1992, for instance, he was definitely the second best player on the floor behind MJ in the finals.

All in all they are similar players. Drexler has better stats, but again, that is because he did not have the GOAT's shadow reducing his stats. Pippen's defense and 6 rings versus 1 ring give Pip the edge, though imo, although Clyde was a great player and the fourth best SG ever.


...and if Jordan wasn't paired with Pippen, he wouldn't be remembered. What's your point? I can't think of a single player that has single-handedly won a title. Not one, and this includes "His Airness" MJ. The closest anyone has come to winning a title being a one man show is probably Iverson, although I don't know enough about the NBA prior to the 80's, so maybe there was a bigger one man show back then.

I know. I am tired of this BS.

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
27-26 (51%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ


*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs

Don't give me that BS about Pip's Portland teams being great. Without him in 2002 and 2003 they were sub-.500 squads (although they were elite with Pippen...)--exactly what MJ's Bulls were in the 80's prior to 1988.

Forget MJ's losing records in the 80's for a moment. When it comes to the 90's, defending champion Bulls Jordan without Pippen led the Bulls to the same win rate as Pippen did without Jordan. Pippen's detractors love to say Pippen could not win in 94' without Jordan. Yes, but Jordan was not going to win in 98' either if Pippen did not come back. Both kept their teams at an elite, championship contending level but they were merely one championship contender, not a dominant team like the Bulls when Jordan/Pippen joined forces. When Pippen came back the 98' Bulls went from a 56 win caliber team to a dominant 67 win caliber team. Similarly, in 95' the Bulls were 34-31 without Jordan but went 13-4 (76%, on pace for 63 wins) when Jordan came back. They were a team--the GOAT duo. Yes, Jordan was the superior player but Pippen was no mere "sidekick." He was indispensable--and MJ knew that. This is why MJ said he would not play for the Bulls without Pippen. Pippen's value goes beyond stats. This is why his Portland teams suffered without him. Pippen was old and well past his prime by 2002 and 2003. Was it Pippen's 11 ppg they missed? No, they missed his leadership and his rare ability to make his teammates better. With him they were 65-67% win teams in those seasons; without him they were 45% and 48% win teams. It wasn't just the loss of a starter. When Rasheed Wallace got hurt they went 6-2 without him...


He proved he could be the number one option and carry teams to the NBA finals twice.

Twice in how many years? Pippen had ONE season as the #1 option and was on his way to the finals until damn Hue Hollins...Drexler lost in 92' despite having a far more talented team than what Jordan/Pippen had...


Clyde had averaged 8ast in a season.

Yeah--in 1986. Pippen averaged 7.0 (Drexler averaged 8.0 in 86') in 92'. The pace for Drexler's 86' team? 104.5. For Pip's 92' team? 94.4. Pippen on the 86' team adjusted for pace would be up to 7.8. You also have to factor in the fact the triangle offense deflates player's assist numbers because of its emphasis on ball movement. If Pippen averaged, adjusted for pace, 7.8 in it common sense says he would have averaged more outside the triangle offense.


But Mike and Clyde were 6'6 and 6'7 with Dr. J type athletic ability.

Yeah, and so was Scottie Pippen according to the GOAT coach.

"At 6 feet 8 inches and 215 pounds, angular and muscular, Pippen has grown into the prototypical N.B.A. small forward without surrendering the instincts and skills of a guard. "What people may not yet realize is that what we have here is a Julius Erving-type player," Jackson said.

That name comes to mind when Pippen is attacking the lane, ball firm in his right hand as if magnetically drawn, preparing for one of his patented power dunks. By comparing him with Erving -- Pippen's boyhood idol -- Jackson is painting more than a stately picture. He is saying that Pippen, like Jordan, is a revolutionary talent."

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/27/sports/nba-season-preview-pippen-s-stunning-leap-into-jordan-s-league.html?scp=29&sq=Scottie%20Pippen&st=cse&pagewanted=2


Clyde's scoring gap against Pippen was shorter than Pippen's defense gap against Drexler. In other words, Pippen's Defense>Clyde's scoring.

:applause:


You see, pippen may be really good, but I get this feeling that nobody would remember him if he wasn't paired with jordan. He'd get ignored like wilkins, mullin, baylor and others.

Mullin? His problem is he had a short period of greatness due to injuries. He is like Grant Hill or Ralph Sampson in that sense. The other two guys simply did not win enough. Winning matters. Do we remember Dan Fouts as much as Jim McMahon? Was Derek Jeter ever the best player in baseball? Why do people remember Alan Kulwicki more than Fireball Roberts? And so on. This applies across sports.

[momo]

Once you are comparing gold standard vs gold standard all you have to go on is style and nuance. Both were golden. I could choose The Glide because as far as I know he has no mental meltdowns or anything like that. But it is not much to go on... the flipside is I do not think Drex has Scotties will. Or his versatility on D....

It just go's on for ever :P

[T-bomb 25]

The Glide was awsome,Pippen was great,but Drextler was a bonafied no.1 option,if Clyde would have been playing with Hakeem during the time the Bulls won those championships half of those 6 titles that Jordan and Pippen won would have been theirs,maybe more.

[Roundball_Rock]

if Clyde would have been playing with Hakeem during the time the Bulls won those championships half of those 6 titles that Jordan and Pippen won would have been theirs,maybe more.

Maybe if Drexler outplayed Pippen he would have won in 1992? :confusedshrug: The Blazers came close to forcing a game 7. Perhaps if Drexler outplayed Pippen--especially when Pippen was leading a 15 point 4th quarter comeback in game 6 with a bunch of bench scrubs while MJ was resting--there would have been a game 7 and Portland would have won. Drexler's team was stacked, much more talented than the 92' Bulls.

You can see the legendary comeback here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related :bowdown:

1992 Portland Trailblazers

57-25, #1 in the West and #2 overall
7th in offensive rating, 2nd in defensive rating

Past regular season performance: 63-19 (#1 in the West, #1 overall), 59-23 (#2 in the West, #2 overall), 39-43 (#8 in the West, #18 overall)
Past playoff performance: lost in the WCF, lost in the NBA finals, lost in the first round

Personnel

All-stars in 1990-91: Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter, Kevin Duckworth
HOFers: Clyde Drexler
Players who were all-stars at some point in their career: Clyde Drexler (10x), Buck Williams (3x), Terry Porter (2x), Kevin Duckworth (2x), Danny Ainge (1x), Cliff Robinson (1x)
Other key players: Jerome Kersey

Talk about talent! Half the team was at some point an all-star!

MVP caliber players: Clyde Drexler. Drexler finished 2nd in MVP voting in 1992. He was 5th in 1988.
All-NBA players: Clyde Drexler (1st team)
All-Defensive players: Buck Williams (2nd team)

Clyde Drexler was 4th in scoring, 20th in assists, 19th in steals, 5th in PER, 15th in defensive rating, 7th in offensive win shares, 9th in defensive win shares, 6th in overall win shares

At the time some people considered Clyde Drexler to be the second best player in the NBA, as a sort of MJ-lite. He was the consensus #2 at his position at the time. He is generally considered to be one of the top 5 SG's of all-time.

Leading scorers: Drexler 25.0, Porter 18.1, Kersey 12.6, Robinson 12.4, Williams 11.3
Leading rebounders: Williams 8.8, Kersey 8.2, Drexler 6.6
Leading passers: Drexler 6.7, Porter 5.8, Kersey 3.2

92' Bulls vs. 92' Blazers in terms of talent

Williams=Grant
Kersey<Pippen
Duckworth>Cartwright
Drexler<Jordan
Porter>Paxson

C. Robinson>Armstrong
Ainge>King

[T-bomb 25]

They had more talent,to this day i cant understand why the Blazers didnt beat them.

[Roundball_Rock]

They had more talent,to this day i cant understand why the Blazers didnt beat them.

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/pippen4_051210.jpg

:hammertime:

[T-bomb 25]

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/pippen4_051210.jpg

:hammertime:Yep thats about the size of it.

[Bigsmoke]

Clyde Drexler

[Duncan21formvp]

Drexler didnt outplay Pippen because Jordan locked down Drexler.

Guys who Pippen defended outplayed him. Prime example was Penny Hardaway.

[juju151111]

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/pippen4_051210.jpg

:hammertime:
:hammertime: :hammertime: aLSO pIPPEN ISN'T BETTER THEN CLYDE. Just because MJ took a **** on him and shut him down in 92 doesn't mean pip was Better.

[Roundball_Rock]

Guys who Pippen defended outplayed him. Prime example was Penny Hardaway.

:roll: I already owned you on this by looking up their head-to-head records. Pippen once dropped a triple double against Penny.

:oldlol: @ this criticism. MJ is the ultimate competitor, no? If Pippen was allegedly getting crushed by Penny why did the ultimate competitor not demand that he be assigned to Penny? Obviously MJ liked Pip's job on Penny.

Pip owning Penny and Shaq. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dZ9eQeLFs&feature=related


aLSO pIPPEN ISN'T BETTER THEN CLYDE.

6>1


Just because MJ took a **** on him and shut him down in 92 doesn't mean pip was Better.

25/8/5 is being shut down? 41% shooting is not great but it is not horrible either against a great defense in the NBA finals.

Drexler's stats in the 95' finals were similar. 22/10 (9.5)/7 on 45% shooting. Basketball reference does not have game logs for the 89' playoffs so I could not look up his stats for that series.

We have Drexler's record in two NBA finals and it is similar to Pippen's. When you factor in defense then Pippen's finals performances clearly>Drexler's. In 93' Pippen almost averaged a triple double for the entire finals with a 21/9/8/2 line! :bowdown:

Besides, MJ was on the bench when Portland led with 17 with thirteen minutes left in the game. Drexler was out there with his all-star filled crew against Pippen and a bunch of scrubs. What happened? Pippen and four backbenchers went on a huge run to cut the lead to 3 before MJ came back into the game. Watch the video. Pippen was involved in practically every point produced during that run. He either scored it directly or facilitated it. This was prime Clyde Drexler out there. Why was he letting Pippen, allegedly an overrated borderline all-star, do this with a bunch of scrubs against him? Also if you watch the video notice MJ's reaction to the run. He is cheering. He is not clamoring to get back in. Why? He knew the team was in good hands and it would not suffer while he rested because of the great #33 being out there.

[catch24]

Scottie Pippen vs. Knicks - 1995 season (two different games)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v4xgH6aYkc

Awesome display of his overall game. I'd take him over Clyde solely because of that.

*edit* another SICK game vs LA in '96: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-cJsg5UQA&feature=channel_page

[juju151111]

:roll: I already owned you on this by looking up their head-to-head records. Pippen once dropped a triple double against Penny.

:oldlol: @ this criticism. MJ is the ultimate competitor, no? If Pippen was allegedly getting crushed by Penny why did the ultimate competitor not demand that he be assigned to Penny? Obviously MJ liked Pip's job on Penny.



6>1



25/8/5 is being shut down? 41% shooting is not great but it is not horrible either against a great defense in the NBA finals.

Drexler's stats in the 95' finals were similar. 22/10 (9.5)/7 on 45% shooting. Basketball reference does not have game logs for the 89' playoffs so I could not look up his stats for that series.

We have Drexler's record in two NBA finals and it is similar to Pippen's. When you factor in defense then Pippen's finals performances clearly>Drexler's. In 93' Pippen almost averaged a triple double for the entire finals with a 21/9/8/2 line! :bowdown:

Besides, MJ was on the bench when Portland led with 17 with thirteen minutes left in the game. Drexler was out there with his all-star filled crew against Pippen and a bunch of scrubs. What happened? Pippen and four backbenchers went on a huge run to cut the lead to 3 before MJ came back into the game. Watch the video. Pippen was involved in practically every point produced during that run. He either scored it directly or facilitated it. This was prime Clyde Drexler out there. Why was he letting Pippen, allegedly an overrated borderline all-star, do this with a bunch of scrubs against him?
LOL at your saying 6>1. LOL hakeem has two rings i guest pip was better huh? GTFO and Mj made him shoot 41%. He got his asds shutdown by Mj. LOL Wow he got 8 rebs and 5 ast. Those are noting he needed to produce offensivly which he didn't. He also had to guard Mj at the other end which probably affected his offense, but it's no excuse since Mj guarded him while shutting his ass down. Drexler was on the floor??? At wat point they he come in the 4th Q. LOL drexler had 5 fouls and was playing soft defense on Pip. lol wtf

[Roundball_Rock]

Scottie Pippen vs. Knicks - 1995 season (two different games)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v4xgH6aYkc

Awesome display of his overall game. I'd take him over Clyde solely because of that.

*edit* another SICK game vs LA in '96: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pg-cJsg5UQA&feature=channel_page

:applause: His Christmas Day game performance against the Knicks that season was amazing.


LOL at your saying 6>1. LOL hakeem has two rings i guest pip was better huh?

When you have two guys who are similar it is fair to use rings as a decisive factor when comparing them. Hakeem>Pippen as a player to such an extent that Pippen's 6 rings do not make up for Hakeem having "only" 2.

MJ played great against him. So what? What does that have to do with Drexler failing to win championships despite having more talented teams than what Pippen had?

Drexler came back in at the start of the 4th quarter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related


LOL drexler had 5 fouls and was playing soft defense on Pip. lol wtf

:oldlol: That is an excuse for him turning the ball over and not scoring on the offensive end?

What does Drexler having 5 fouls have to do with Pippen facilitating for scrubs? Pippen was out there were 3-4 ppg guys who barely averaged 10 minutes per game!!! :bowdown:

This thread proves MJ stans will give no other Bull credit other than MJ--even when MJ is freaking not even in the game! :roll:


He also had to guard Mj at the other end which probably affected his offense, but it's no excuse since Mj guarded him while shutting his ass down.

MJ was not even in the freaking game at the crucial juncture! :wtf:

Did guarding Nick Anderson tire Clyde too in 95'? :oldlol:

[juju151111]

:applause: His Christmas Day game performance against the Knicks that season was amazing.



When you have two guys who are similar it is fair to use rings as a decisive factor when comparing them. Hakeem>Pippen as a player to such an extent that Pippen's 6 rings do not make up for Hakeem having "only" 2.

MJ played great against him. So what? What does that have to do with Drexler failing to win championships despite having more talented teams than what Pippen had?

Drexler came back in at the start of the 4th quarter. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related



:oldlol: That is an excuse for him turning the ball over and not scoring on the offensive end?

What does Drexler having 5 fouls have to do with Pippen facilitating for scrubs?

This thread proves MJ stans will give no other Bull credit other than MJ--even when MJ is freaking not even in the game! :roll:



MJ was not even in the freaking game at the crucial juncture! :wtf:

Did guarding Nick Anderson tire Clyde too in 95'? :oldlol:
How are they comparable. Drexler was was the leader of his team then and was guarding MJ. Drexler picked up 5 fouls guarding MJ and was playing soft in the 4th. WTH are you talking about?? Clyde was like 32 in 95. He was not in his prime. He shot 45% according to you. ALso where do you get certain playoff series stats. I know it's at Basketball reference, but do you calculate it yourselve or do they have it? Who isn't giving Pip credit??? ecause i don't think he is etter then Clyde/

[Roundball_Rock]

Drexler was was the leader of his team then and was guarding MJ.

Where was he when his team was collapsing? This was prime Drexler, allegedly the second best player in the NBA at the time and he was not able to stem the tide.

Drexler averaged 22/6/5/2 in 1995. It isn't as if he was a scrub by 95'. Drexler was an 18 ppg scorer even in 1998.

Go to basketball reference, search for a player and click on game logs. For the 90's and beyond they have game logs for playoff games so I just calculated his averages for the finals.

Pippen outplayed Drexler in 92'. He was the second best player in that series behind the GOAT. Too bad MJ fans cannot give him credit for this. You can legitimately say that Drexler>Pippen but in the 92' finals it was obvious that Pippen>Drexler. The 92' finals came up because someone trotted out the usual MJ card regarding Pippen. The fact is Clyde could have won in 92' if he outplayed Pippen. The margin was not big. A bit better play by Drexler would have given Portland, the far more talented team, the series. Remember that they lost game 6 by only 3 points...

[juju151111]

Where was he when his team was collapsing? This was prime Drexler, allegedly the second best player in the NBA at the time and he was not able to stem the tide.

Drexler averaged 22/6/5/2 in 1995. It isn't as if he was a scrub by 95'. Drexler was an 18 ppg scorer even in 1998.

Go to basketball reference, search for a player and click on game logs. For the 90's and beyond they have game logs for playoff games so I just calculated his averages for the finals.

Pippen outplayed Drexler in 92'. He was the second best player in that series behind the GOAT. Too bad MJ fans cannot give him credit for this. You can legitimately say that Drexler>Pippen but in the 92' finals it was obvious that Pippen>Drexler. The 92' finals came up because someone trotted out the usual MJ card regarding Pippen. The fact is Clyde could have won in 92' if he outplayed Pippen. The margin was not big. A bit better play by Drexler would have given Portland, the far more talented team, the series. Remember that they lost game 6 by only 3 points...
na He couldn't outplay pip with Prime Mj guarding him and abusing him on offense. LOL at Portland winning. Who was going to stop Mj in gm 7 at home. LOL GTFO Pippen was great nobody is saying otherwise.

[chitownsfinest]

Roundball, you fail to give the Bulls any credit again. Yes, Pippen was probably the mvp of that 4th Q but he didn't do everything. Bobby Hansen hit a clutch 3 (not assisted by Pippen) and had a clutch steal in that quarter. Stacey King scored 5 points (3 from the free throw line) and B.J. Armstrong scored a big bucket as well (off the dribble). Pippen did have 11 points in that quarter, including a big three to tie it and a shot to give the Bulls the lead. MJ came in with the Bulls down by 5 and scored 12 points from that point onwards including two late baskets to close the game out for good, some clutch D on Clyde, and two free throws. Scott Williams had a clutch block as well. I still call Pip the mvp because he hit the big three (difficult one as well) and I believe he had a offensive board as well. Just do not act like Pippen was solely responsible for that 4th quarter.

As for the question, I take Pippen.

[AirJordan23]

I'd take Pip. When you factor in defense, unselfishness, team play and success, Pippen takes it. And yeah sure, Drexler led his team to the finals as the first option but we never got to see what Pip could really do as a first option. The one year in '94, he lead the Bulls to the ECSF against the Knicks and they probably make the finals if it wasn't for the phantom call against Pip. Pip didn't foul Davis yet Hollins gave the Knicks the benefit of the doubt and the Knicks won. In '95, they were around .500 due to not having a post presence or interior defender since Grant left. So, I don't really think bringing Drexler's accomplishments as the man should be brought up as an argument.

As for comparing their games. Drexler is better when it comes to scoring. Ball handling is an edge to Pippen. Defense, rebounding and passing go to Pippen as well. Pippen had a better all around game than Drexler but not his dominance and the ways in which Drexler would score. And I would say that Pippen is more versatile. It's pretty close, though. I'd take Pip but arguments could be made for either depending on your criteria.

[chitownsfinest]

I'd take Pip. When you factor in defense, unselfishness, team play and success, Pippen takes it. And yeah sure, Drexler led his team to the finals as the first option but we never got to see what Pip could really do as a first option. The one year in '94, he lead the Bulls to the ECSF against the Knicks and they probably make the finals if it wasn't for the phantom call against Pip. Pip didn't foul Davis yet Hollins gave the Knicks the benefit of the doubt and the Knicks won. In '95, they were around .500 due to not having a post presence or interior defender since Grant left. So, I don't really think bringing Drexler's accomplishments as the man should be brought up as an argument.

As for comparing their games. Drexler is better when it comes to scoring. Ball handling is an edge to Pippen. Defense, rebounding and passing go to Pippen as well. Pippen had a better all around game than Drexler but not his dominance and the ways in which Drexler would score. And I would say that Pippen is more versatile. It's pretty close, though. I'd take Pip but arguments could be made for either depending on your criteria.
Passing is debatable imo. Clyde was an amazing passer.

[millwad]

Drexler didnt outplay Pippen because Jordan locked down Drexler.

Guys who Pippen defended outplayed him. Prime example was Penny Hardaway.

25/8/8 doesn't sound like locking someone down...

[chitownsfinest]

25/8/8 doesn't sound like locking someone down...
:roll:
It was 25/8/5 on 41% shooting. Jordan locked him down to go 8/24 in game 6 and 1 for his last 6 shots in game 3.

[D.J.]

:roll:
It was 25/8/5 on 41% shooting. Jordan locked him down to go 8/24 in game 6 and 1 for his last 6 shots in game 3.


Even with the mediocre shooting percentages, Clyde was still scoring whether it was from the field, or at the foul line. Not to mention he was still grabbing eight rebounds and handing out five assists. His numbers against the Bulls were very similar to his regular season numbers, minus the shooting percentages. Locking down would mean Clyde averaging something along the lines of 15/5/3.

[chitownsfinest]

Even with the mediocre shooting percentages, Clyde was still scoring whether it was from the field, or at the foul line. Not to mention he was still grabbing eight rebounds and handing out five assists. His numbers against the Bulls were very similar to his regular season numbers, minus the shooting percentages. Locking down would mean Clyde averaging something along the lines of 15/5/3.
Assists and Reb's are beyond MJ's control on defense. Considering Clyde shot 60 points below his season average on fg%, I would definitely consider it close to locking down. Clyde also averaged 3 to's per game which is a indication of MJ's D. Clyde also was 3/20 from the three point line in the series and if I remember correctly, MJ's D caused Clyde to have like 5-6 air balls. Regardless, MJ locked him down in game 6 (most important game in the series) to go 8-24 and locked him down to go 1 for his last 6 in the end of game 3. Also the 41% shooting shows that MJ's D caused Clyde to ruin a lot of possessions by bricking shots.

If it isn't locking down, wouldn't you at least call it great D considering MJ was guarding an all time great and had to lead his team on the offensive end as well?

[AirJordan23]

Passing is debatable imo. Clyde was an amazing passer.
You're probably right. My judgment is most likely incorrect since the Clyde I have in mind is the one in Houston where he was pretty injury prone and playing second fiddle to Hakeem while I did see a prime Pip. I have seen some tapes of a prime Drexler (92 finals) but never to the degree where I could make a proper judgment. Pip seemed a better passer to me because he was really smart. He knew when to make the entry pass, had the instincts and the length which made him a pretty good passer. I just thought Pippen's court vision was better than Glide's.

[millwad]

Where was he when his team was collapsing? This was prime Drexler, allegedly the second best player in the NBA at the time and he was not able to stem the tide.

Drexler averaged 22/6/5/2 in 1995. It isn't as if he was a scrub by 95'. Drexler was an 18 ppg scorer even in 1998.

Go to basketball reference, search for a player and click on game logs. For the 90's and beyond they have game logs for playoff games so I just calculated his averages for the finals.

Pippen outplayed Drexler in 92'. He was the second best player in that series behind the GOAT. Too bad MJ fans cannot give him credit for this. You can legitimately say that Drexler>Pippen but in the 92' finals it was obvious that Pippen>Drexler. The 92' finals came up because someone trotted out the usual MJ card regarding Pippen. The fact is Clyde could have won in 92' if he outplayed Pippen. The margin was not big. A bit better play by Drexler would have given Portland, the far more talented team, the series. Remember that they lost game 6 by only 3 points...


Clyde Drexler was the 1st option in '92, Pippen was the 2nd. If you play with someone named Michael Jordan you're gonna get damn many open looks. I would never compare a SG playing against the best SG and player by all-time with the other team's 2nd option at another position...

Pippen was never the leader and he never did **** as a leader on ANY team. He was a very good 2nd option but no sane person would choose Pippen over Drexler. Drexler led those Portland teams to 2 finals. Okey, Portland had great players but Drexler was the leader, the best job Pippen did as a leader was to quit on his teammates when his coach told the players to pass Kukoc for the gamewinning shot...


Clyde Drexler was the 1st option in '92, Pippen was the 2nd. If you play with someone named Michael Jordan you're gonna get damn many open looks. I would never compare a SG playing against the best SG and player by all-time with the other team's 2nd option at another position...

Pippen was never the leader and he never did **** as a leader on ANY team. He was a very good 2nd option but no sane person would choose Pippen over Drexler. Drexler led those Portland teams to 2 finals. Okey, Portland had great players but Drexler was the leader, the best job Pippen did as a leader was to quit on his teammates when his coach told the players to pass Kukoc for the gamewinning shot...

[chitownsfinest]

Clyde Drexler was the 1st option in '92, Pippen was the 2nd. If you play with someone named Michael Jordan you're gonna get damn many open looks. I would never compare a SG playing against the best SG and player by all-time with the other team's 2nd option at another position...

Pippen was never the leader and he never did **** as a leader on ANY team. He was a very good 2nd option but no sane person would choose Pippen over Drexler. Drexler led those Portland teams to 2 finals. Okey, Portland had great players but Drexler was the leader, the best job Pippen did as a leader was to quit on his teammates when his coach told the players to pass Kukoc for the gamewinning shot...


Clyde Drexler was the 1st option in '92, Pippen was the 2nd. If you play with someone named Michael Jordan you're gonna get damn many open looks. I would never compare a SG playing against the best SG and player by all-time with the other team's 2nd option at another position...

Pippen was never the leader and he never did **** as a leader on ANY team. He was a very good 2nd option but no sane person would choose Pippen over Drexler. Drexler led those Portland teams to 2 finals. Okey, Portland had great players but Drexler was the leader, the best job Pippen did as a leader was to quit on his teammates when his coach told the players to pass Kukoc for the gamewinning shot...
Uhh.... Pippen averaged 21.7 ppg on 49 % shooting in his two yrs as the first option. He averaged 19 ppg on 50% shooting from 91-93. If he really relied on MJ that bad for open looks and scoring, wouldn't his numbers go down? Stop with the BS, Pip was a smart player on offense and had a good shot selection. His jumper was a bit in-consistent, but he was well polished offensively other then that.

[millwad]

:roll: I already owned you on this by looking up their head-to-head records. Pippen once dropped a triple double against Penny.

:oldlol: @ this criticism. MJ is the ultimate competitor, no? If Pippen was allegedly getting crushed by Penny why did the ultimate competitor not demand that he be assigned to Penny? Obviously MJ liked Pip's job on Penny.

Pip owning Penny and Shaq. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1dZ9eQeLFs&feature=related



6>1



25/8/5 is being shut down? 41% shooting is not great but it is not horrible either against a great defense in the NBA finals.

Drexler's stats in the 95' finals were similar. 22/10 (9.5)/7 on 45% shooting. Basketball reference does not have game logs for the 89' playoffs so I could not look up his stats for that series.

We have Drexler's record in two NBA finals and it is similar to Pippen's. When you factor in defense then Pippen's finals performances clearly>Drexler's. In 93' Pippen almost averaged a triple double for the entire finals with a 21/9/8/2 line! :bowdown:

Besides, MJ was on the bench when Portland led with 17 with thirteen minutes left in the game. Drexler was out there with his all-star filled crew against Pippen and a bunch of scrubs. What happened? Pippen and four backbenchers went on a huge run to cut the lead to 3 before MJ came back into the game. Watch the video. Pippen was involved in practically every point produced during that run. He either scored it directly or facilitated it. This was prime Clyde Drexler out there. Why was he letting Pippen, allegedly an overrated borderline all-star, do this with a bunch of scrubs against him? Also if you watch the video notice MJ's reaction to the run. He is cheering. He is not clamoring to get back in. Why? He knew the team was in good hands and it would not suffer while he rested because of the great #33 being out there.


Doesn't matter what you say about those 6 rings, he wasn't even close the level Jordan played on. 6 finals and still 0 finals mvp's, 6 finals and still no mvp... Michael Jordan was a 6-time MVP of the year playing with Scottie, himself was at 3rd place and he wasn't anywhere close to it that year since it was Olajuwon's that year.

This isn't even funny, you are comparing a sidekick to a guy that led his team to 2 finals.

Sure, Pippen at times was a freak when he was with Jordan but he wasn't a player that could carry the team, he just wasn't.

Drexler was a better

[millwad]

Uhh.... Pippen averaged 21.7 ppg on 49 % shooting in his two yrs as the first option. He averaged 19 ppg on 50% shooting from 91-93. If he really relied on MJ that bad for open looks and scoring, wouldn't his numbers go down? Stop with the BS, Pip was a smart player on offense and had a good shot selection. His jumper was a bit in-consistent, but he was well polished offensively other then that.

I was talking about him getting more open looks in the finals vs Clyde because he wasn't the first option of the team and you gotta believe there's some difference between the defense you receive as the first option in the finals compared to being the second option.

And the % of the regular season as the first option can't be compared to the % a first option player delivers in the finals. It's a pretty big difference between the quality of the D...

[OldSchoolBBall]

How is it fair to look at Pippen's numbers vs. Drexler's in the '92 Finals when A) they were hardly ever matched up, and B) Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention and Pippen wasn't?

[millwad]

How is it fair to look at Pippen's numbers vs. Drexler's in the '92 Finals when A) they were hardly ever matched up, and B) Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention and Pippen wasn't?

Spot on, that's what I'm saying too. That doesn't make no sense at all!

[chitownsfinest]

How is it fair to look at Pippen's numbers vs. Drexler's in the '92 Finals when A) they were hardly ever matched up, and B) Drexler was seeing first option defensive attention and Pippen wasn't?
I believe Clyde was guarded by Pip in the 4th Q of game 2 when MJ had foul trouble. That is the only time I remember Pip guarding him that series.

[Fatal9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related
Which reminds me (though this is really related to the other thread), how many times did Kareem and Wilt sit when down 17 in the finals, only to come back 6 minutes later with a clean slate? Guy Rodgers and Oscar Robertson's fossil just weren't getting it done like that.

[chitownsfinest]

Which reminds me (though this is really related to the other thread), how many times did Kareem and Wilt sit when down 17 in the finals, only to come back 6 minutes later with a clean slate? Guy Rodgers and Oscar Robertson's fossil just weren't getting it done like that.

Roundball, you fail to give the Bulls any credit again. Yes, Pippen was probably the mvp of that 4th Q but he didn't do everything. Bobby Hansen hit a clutch 3 (not assisted by Pippen) and had a clutch steal in that quarter. Stacey King scored 5 points (3 from the free throw line) and B.J. Armstrong scored a big bucket as well (off the dribble). Pippen did have 11 points in that quarter, including a big three to tie it and a shot to give the Bulls the lead. MJ came in with the Bulls down by 5 and scored 12 points from that point onwards including two late baskets to close the game out for good, some clutch D on Clyde, and two free throws. Scott Williams had a clutch block as well. I still call Pip the mvp because he hit the big three (difficult one as well) and I believe he had a offensive board as well. Just do not act like Pippen was solely responsible for that 4th quarter.

My post on it. You are right. The Bulls supporting cast was great but the credit shouldn't only be given to Pippen. As for your question, that is one instance when it happened. You can't justify something from one instance only. Same way I can point out all the games MJ took over that caused the Bulls to win big games (game 6 of the 93 Finals) but that would obviously be dis-respecting the Bulls cast.

As for your question, it is hard to find prime Wilt/Kareem on the Buck footage so it is hard to say.

[juju151111]

Which reminds me (though this is really related to the other thread), how many times did Kareem and Wilt sit when down 17 in the finals, only to come back 6 minutes later with a clean slate? Guy Rodgers and Oscar Robertson's fossil just weren't getting it done like that.
Go ask Phil jackson. He does the same crap with Kobe to this day. LOL He was right because MJ got a resrt and came back with 12 4th Q points. The 2nd unit and pip was playing good and the zen master doesn't get out of control.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Which reminds me (though this is really related to the other thread), how many times did Kareem and Wilt sit when down 17 in the finals, only to come back 6 minutes later with a clean slate? Guy Rodgers and Oscar Robertson's fossil just weren't getting it done like that.

Yeah, because that was the rule rather than the exception. :oldlol:

Jordan did more heavy lifting and carried more of a load in the 4th than any other top 10 player in history, bar none. Pointing to one of two instances where his team came through big time with him sitting doesn't change that fact. There have doubtless been instances of this for every star player in history, they just weren't publicized as much in order to make a nice "teamwork" story.

[MiseryCityTexas]

drexler was better than pippen.

[T-bomb 25]

drexler was better than pippen.Drexler,he was a proven number 1.option,Pipen never was.

[lbj23clutch]

Clyde>Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: @ how all but one MJ fan in here is taking Drexler, not Jordan's teammate. MJ fans also cannot bring themselves to admit that Pippen was the second best player in the series behind their hero. :roll:

:roll: @ the #1 option nonsense. MJ stans seem to jack off to the phrase "number one option."


Clyde Drexler was the 1st option in '92, Pippen was the 2nd. If you play with someone named Michael Jordan you're gonna get damn many open looks. I would never compare a SG playing against the best SG and player by all-time with the other team's 2nd option at another position...

That is a profoundly ignorant statement. When MJ left Pippen, Grant, and most of the players who played on both the 93' and 94' Bulls saw their FG %'s increase.


Pippen was never the leader and he never did **** as a leader on ANY team.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

By 2002 he was a 36 year old well past his prime 11 ppg scorer. Was it his 11 ppg that Portland missed? No, it was his intangibles and leadership.

Rasheed Wallace is considered to have been the best player on the early 2000's Portland teams. In 2003 he missed eight games. His team went 6-2 without him...

GOAT coach Phil Jackson: “On the Bulls, Scottie was probably the player most liked by others. He mingled. He brought out the best in players and communicated the best. Leadership, real leadership is one of his strengths.

“Everybody says Michael [Jordan] was a great leader. He led by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie’s leadership was equally dominant, but [his was] a leadership of patting on the back, of support.”

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/pippen_feature_031112.html

As the GOAT alluded to, Pippen's teammates loved him because he was a great leader both on and off the court.


Pippen did what Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't. Pippen usually guarded the toughest offensive player, enabling Jordan to freelance in the lanes for steals and the fast break that broke most teams. While most regard those champion Bulls for Jordan, it was their aggressive defense that produced its offense and created the fear.

When the Bulls won their first championship in 1991, it was Pippen guarding Magic Johnson and creating so much havoc for the Lakers. It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

But since Pippen was sacrificing personal glory to give the Steve Kerrs of the world a good shot people today hold it against him because he did not score 30 ppg chucking the ball instead of helping his teammates--and yes, making them better! This is why he has 6 rings while some others who score 30 ppg have none...

Did Pippen make his teammates better? We saw that Magic Johnson did.

Horace Grant: His best season was the year he was on a Pippen led team. That marked his only all-star game appearance.

B.J. Armstrong: His best season was the year he was on a Pippen led team. That marked his only all-star game appearance. He fell off the face of the Earth after leaving Chicago--and Scottie.

Steve Kerr: The best season of Kerr's career was under the 94' Pippen Bulls.

Scott Williams: His best season was also 1994.

6 players on the 1994 Bulls had their career season that year (Pippen and Myers in addition to these players). Two were rookies, including Toni Kukoc, and Luc Longley was in only his second season. Two others were washed up by this point. John Paxson retired at the end of 1994 and Bill Cartwright would the following season.

Some will say that this was because MJ's departure allowed them to increase their stats. (although in theory their FG % should have declined without MJ. It actually increased.) That is a fair point but does not explain why BJ Armstrong disappeared after leaving Chicago, Steve Kerr, Scott Williams, and Horace Grant could never match their 94' production despite playing for many seasons on different teams after leaving the Bulls.

How about a better comparison, one that is more direct? In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

So we have two clear trends: 1) Pippen's teams won more when he played and 2) his teammates performed significantly better when he was there alongside them. Why is this so? The GOAT coach and Steve Kerr explained it.

It is a myth that Pippen was not a great leader. He was more than a great leader in the huddle. He was one of the rare players who made his teammates better on the court.


Doesn't matter what you say about those 6 rings, he wasn't even close the level Jordan played on. 6 finals and still 0 finals mvp's, 6 finals and still no mvp... Michael Jordan was a 6-time MVP of the year playing with Scottie, himself was at 3rd place and he wasn't anywhere close to it that year since it was Olajuwon's that year.

Yeah, and where was MJ without Pippen? If you are going to look at Pippen without Jordan you need to look at the other side.

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
27-26 (51%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ


*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs

This is the root of MJ stan hatred of Pippen. All Jordan won without Pippen was a few endorsements and a slam dunk contest. MJ could not even muster a freaking winning record without Pippen. 168-169. :roll: :roll: Moreover, to add insult to injury Pippen did better without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen.

Kareem without Magic: champion
Hakeem without Drexler: champion
Duncan without Parker: champion
Magic without Kareem: NBA finals
Shaq without Kobe: champion
Kobe without Shaq: champion
Russell without Cousy: champion
Wilt without West: champion
Jordan without Pippen: 1 playoff win, 168-169 regular season record :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Let's look at some other examples.

Magic without Kareem

Regular season

63-19
58-24
53-29*

Playoffs

4-5 WCSF
12-7 NBA finals
1-3

*Magic played in only 32 games and started only 9 of them in 1996.

Shaq without Kobe

Note: these are his team records since I do not feel like taking the time to check the records for the games in which Shaq played. Shaq missed significant time in several of these seasons. Nonetheless, a clear trend emerges.
Note 2: I did not look at how far his teams went so I don't like the seasons where they made the semifinals. The conference finals and NBA finals years are from memory.

41-41
50-32
57-25 NBA finals
60-22 ECF
56-26
61-21 WCF
31-19
67-15
56-26
58-24
50-32
56-26 NBA finals
59-23 ECF
52-30
44-38
15-67/55-27
46-36

Bold indicates championship winning seasons.

MJ fans are going to cry foul but if you are going to diminish Pippen as nothing without Jordan (again, all but one MJ fan in this thread is diminishing Pippen) you have to be prepared to step up to the plate and defend Jordan's record without Pippen, especially when it compares so unfavorably to that of other top 10 players without their main "sidekick."

[nnn123]

Roundball, how many times has this "what has jordan done w/o pippen" nonsense been addressed? And why do you keep ignoring it? You've been given at least 10 different reasonable answers for why MJ's record was so poor w/o Pippen, and you just ignore that guy's post every time.....and continue trolling on...:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do MJ fans keep ignoring what MJ himself realized about his teammate?

Why did Pippen lead the Bulls to the same win rate in 94' without Jordan as Jordan did without Pippen in 98'? The "he had no help" excuse does not fly in that case. The 98' Bulls outside Jordan/Pippen were similar in talent to the 94' Bulls outside of Pippen.

It is trolling to ask the other side of the question but it is not trolling for MJ stans to always diminish Pippen? Read this thread. :roll: Pippen never won without Jordan. Fair enough. Jordan never won without Pippen. Name one other top 10 player of all-time who was below .500 without his chief "sidekick"? Pippen not winning without Jordan is not shocking given his historical ranking--but the GOAT not winning without a guy his own zealous fans imply was a run-of-the-mill borderline all-star?! :eek: That is odd, no?

[nnn123]

Relax Roundball the whole world isn't trying to "diminish Pippen", I saw a bunch of non-MJ fans here (at least I've never seen them in Mj-related threads) say Clyde is better, so now that's diminishing Pippen? That's ridiculous. I could see the argument for both, but saying Drexler is better is not crazy at all.

I completely understand your point about Pippen leading the Bulls to the same win rate as Jordan, but you've got to understand that was ONE season. There are soooo many factors that tie in to team success, it's not as simple as "Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins, Jordan led another completely different team to a 55-win rate, therefore they are equal". That's just stupid. First of all Jordan didn't even get to play out the entire season w/o Pip, and second of all the 94 Bulls and 98 Bulls were COMPLETELY different, outside of Kukoc. How is any reasonable person supposed to make a comparison? That's like saying Allen Iverson led his team to 56 wins in 2001, *without Jordan*, 56>55, Iverson>Pippen. I mean it's two totally different years, the circumstances are completely different, the comparison is ridiculous.

And yes, I think it is trolling to keep saying something that has been addressed a million times. Why don't you try addressing the counter-argument? You have been given several different solid explanations about why Jordan's record is so poor w/o Pippen, shouldn't you try to answer that first? And yes other MJ fans like to troll but that shouldn't give you an excuse to do the same.

[nnn123]

Pippen never won without Jordan. Fair enough. Jordan never won without Pippen. Name one other top 10 player of all-time who was below .500 without his chief "sidekick"? Pippen not winning without Jordan is not shocking given his historical ranking--but the GOAT not winning without a guy his own zealous fans imply was a run-of-the-mill borderline all-star?! :eek: That is odd, no?

OK! That's fine, leave it at that. No player can win w/o help. But there's no reason to act like Jordan is completely worthless without Pippen, which is what you have accomplished. When you're looking at what Jordan accomplished w/o Pip, you're looking at his first two full seasons in the league on a scrub team, and his last two seasons on another weak team, (while playing at the ages of 39 and 40). Compare that to Pippen, who inherited a veteran, 3-peat winning cast of players in his first season w/o Jordan, and then went on later to play with the Rockets and Blazers, two extremely strong teams. Who do you think is gonnna have more team success? Not a good comparison, what do you expect?

[nnn123]

And not to mention that Pippen was in his absolute prime when he took control of that Bulls team, whereas Jordan was just a youngster fresh out of college when he joined the Bulls. I mean, really? Who's going to have more success w/o the other?

[97 bulls]

Relax Roundball the whole world isn't trying to "diminish Pippen", I saw a bunch of non-MJ fans here (at least I've never seen them in Mj-related threads) say Clyde is better, so now that's diminishing Pippen? That's ridiculous. I could see the argument for both, but saying Drexler is better is not crazy at all.

I completely understand your point about Pippen leading the Bulls to the same win rate as Jordan, but you've got to understand that was ONE season. There are soooo many factors that tie in to team success, it's not as simple as "Pippen led the bulls to 55 wins, Jordan led another completely different team to a 55-win rate, therefore they are equal". That's just stupid. First of all Jordan didn't even get to play out the entire season w/o Pip, and second of all the 94 Bulls and 98 Bulls were COMPLETELY different, outside of Kukoc. How is any reasonable person supposed to make a comparison? That's like saying Allen Iverson led his team to 56 wins in 2001, *without Jordan*, 56>55, Iverson>Pippen. I mean it's two totally different years, the circumstances are completely different, the comparison is ridiculous.

And yes, I think it is trolling to keep saying something that has been addressed a million times. Why don't you try addressing the counter-argument? You have been given several different solid explanations about why Jordan's record is so poor w/o Pippen, shouldn't you try to answer that first? And yes other MJ fans like to troll but that shouldn't give you an excuse to do the same.
pip is better than drexler. and i think rock like me and others are just sick of the constant beating pip gets for being a team player. and i think 1 year is enough to get an idea of how he wouldve done by himself. its not like the bulls were a 35 win team with jordan and once he retired, pip leads them to 32. thats really insignificant. pip kept the bulls in championship contention. but that doesnt matter.

[Fatal9]

pip is better than drexler. and i think rock like me and others are just sick of the constant beating pip gets for being a team player. and i think 1 year is enough to get an idea of how he wouldve done by himself. its not like the bulls were a 35 win team with jordan and once he retired, pip leads them to 32. thats really insignificant. pip kept the bulls in championship contention. but that doesnt matter.
You seem like a Bulls fan so how do you feel about Jordan fans taking literally every chance they get to trash his teammates from his rookie season onwards? Gotta be pretty annoying. You can like Jordan (like I do) but I'd have to think that real Bulls fans must hate his fans, especially since half of them claim to be Bulls fans too (we had an alleged die hard Bulls fan defend the Hollins call, another one made a Scottie Pippen is overrated thread, no appreciation for any other player on the team etc etc).

[Da_Realist]

And yes, I think it is trolling to keep saying something that has been addressed a million times. Why don't you try addressing the counter-argument? You have been given several different solid explanations about why Jordan's record is so poor w/o Pippen, shouldn't you try to answer that first?

His response from another thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135476&page=25)...


I didn't start watching basketball until the 1993-94 season, hence being light on details for 1988-1993.

and


I know about Pippen pre-93' but yeah, I know more about him from 94-onward than prior to that. What do you want me to do? I was 7 when the Bulls won their first championship. Is it my fault I was born in 1983 and not 1973 (I presume you were born around that time)?

[Chalkmaze]

So if you switch places, and Scottie had been born a bit earlier, and got drafted by Portland, and Drexler had been born a bit later and was drafted by the Bulls.

Do Pippen and Porter make it to the finals still, if so, do they do any better worse, the same?

Do Drexler and Jordan learn build chemistry and win more, less, the same, than with Pippen?

[nnn123]

pip is better than drexler. and i think rock like me and others are just sick of the constant beating pip gets for being a team player. and i think 1 year is enough to get an idea of how he wouldve done by himself. its not like the bulls were a 35 win team with jordan and once he retired, pip leads them to 32. thats really insignificant. pip kept the bulls in championship contention. but that doesnt matter.


Listen man, my post really had nothing to do w/ the Pip/Clyde comparison...honestly I can't pick between the two, and as I said before, I could see the argument for both. My point was that, just like there are some people here that severely underrate Pippen (mostly ppl like Blitz), I feel like now there are others that severely overrate him. I mean, don't get me wrong that 1994 season was EXTREMELY impressive and should be taken into account. In fact it proves that Pippen is underrated..... but it's also not the end-all of Scottie's abilities. You can't take that one solitary season, compare it to other season's of other all time greats, and say Pippen > Player X because he had a higher "win rate" in 1994 (and by Player X I don't just mean Jordan, you guys have been comparing him to everyone). There are just too many factors to consider in a successful season...be it coaching, motivation levels, injuries, competition, etc etc etc.

And 97 Bulls I totally respect your appreciation for Pippen, ur clearly a true Bulls fan...yet I can't help to notice that some of the other Bulls players are getting trashed here. We've heard the "MJ won w/ a bunch of scrubs" argument, and now we're hearing the "Pippen did it all himself in 94" too. I mean think about it, here's an example....in 98 Pippen goes down....Jordan is left all alone w/ a cast of players that seem very mediocre. On top of that, he has a damaged wrist/knuckle and shoots 40% for the first 15-20 games. On paper, this team seems pretty screwed....but what happens? They go 24-11, a very respectable record. I mean, prime Jordan in the 80s could hardly ever accomplish a 24-11 record, how did he do it at age 35 w/ a major injury, w/o Pippen? Can it be that he was leading a crew of veterans who just won 2 straight championships? Guys who were poised, savvy, accustomed to making the right decisions under pressure? Or even other things that stats can't measure - defense, hustle etc? I mean you look at it, they should NOT have done that well, especially in light of Jordan's injury, but they did. Similarly, the 94 Bulls had just come off a 3-PEAT, they were a bunch of playoff-hardened guys accustomed to winning, can't that have been a factor? Or was it ALL Pippen that year, while no one else showed up? Both accomplishments were pretty impressive, IMO, and shouldn't have happened, but it did. Wierd stuff just happens sometimes.

Wow this is a really long post lmao. My point is that the 94 season was really impressive, but IMO not the end-all of basketball discussions/player comparisons. I mean I've seen someone claim that Jordan made things easier for his teammates, and then Roundball Rock comes over and says "that's stupid, the FG% of all his teammates increased in 94 when he was gone". I mean, really????? Suddenly, the 1994 season proves Jordan made his teammates worse? Stuff like that is what annoys me here. Every year is different, circumstances change, and one year doesn't prove everything. That's what I'm saying. Otherwise, we are simply to assume that 35 year old Jordan with a cracked wrist is capable of leading the Bulls to 55 wins w/o Pippen, a feat that he couldn't even accomplish in his prime. Totally different situation, shoulldn't be used as exclusive proof of Jordan's abilities.

[nnn123]

And by the way Roundball Rock, I did calculate the FG% of Jordan's teammates after he arrived in 95, and compared it to season averages. And it was an increase pretty much accross the board (cept for like 2 players). Should I post the results? Would this give you evidence that Jordan didn't always cause the FG% of his teammates to spiral downwards?

[chitownsfinest]

Listen man, my post really had nothing to do w/ the Pip/Clyde comparison...honestly I can't pick between the two, and as I said before, I could see the argument for both. My point was that, just like there are some people here that severely underrate Pippen (mostly ppl like Blitz), I feel like now there are others that severely overrate him. I mean, don't get me wrong that 1994 season was EXTREMELY impressive and should be taken into account. In fact it proves that Pippen is underrated..... but it's also not the end-all of Scottie's abilities. You can't take that one solitary season, compare it to other season's of other all time greats, and say Pippen > Player X because he had a higher "win rate" in 1994 (and by Player X I don't just mean Jordan, you guys have been comparing him to everyone). There are just too many factors to consider in a successful season...be it coaching, motivation levels, injuries, competition, etc etc etc.

And 97 Bulls I totally respect your appreciation for Pippen, ur clearly a true Bulls fan...yet I can't help to notice that some of the other Bulls players are getting trashed here. We've heard the "MJ won w/ a bunch of scrubs" argument, and now we're hearing the "Pippen did it all himself in 94" too. I mean think about it, here's an example....in 98 Pippen goes down....Jordan is left all alone w/ a cast of players that seem very mediocre. On top of that, he has a damaged wrist/knuckle and shoots 40% for the first 15-20 games. On paper, this team seems pretty screwed....but what happens? They go 24-11, a very respectable record. I mean, prime Jordan in the 80s could hardly ever accomplish a 24-11 record, how did he do it at age 35 w/ a major injury, w/o Pippen? Can it be that he was leading a crew of veterans who just won 2 straight championships? Guys who were poised, savvy, accustomed to making the right decisions under pressure? Or even other things that stats can't measure - defense, hustle etc? I mean you look at it, they should NOT have done that well, especially in light of Jordan's injury, but they did. Similarly, the 94 Bulls had just come off a 3-PEAT, they were a bunch of playoff-hardened guys accustomed to winning, can't that have been a factor? Or was it ALL Pippen that year, while no one else showed up? Both accomplishments were pretty impressive, IMO, and shouldn't have happened, but it did. Wierd stuff just happens sometimes.

Wow this is a really long post lmao. My point is that the 94 season was really impressive, but IMO not the end-all of basketball discussions/player comparisons. I mean I've seen someone claim that Jordan made things easier for his teammates, and then Roundball Rock comes over and says "that's stupid, the FG% of all his teammates increased in 94 when he was gone". I mean, really????? Suddenly, the 1994 season proves Jordan made his teammates worse? Stuff like that is what annoys me here. Every year is different, circumstances change, and one year doesn't prove everything. That's what I'm saying. Otherwise, we are simply to assume that 35 year old Jordan with a cracked wrist is capable of leading the Bulls to 55 wins w/o Pippen, a feat that he couldn't even accomplish in his prime. Totally different situation, shoulldn't be used as exclusive proof of Jordan's abilities.
Great post :applause:

[Da_Realist]

Listen man, my post really had nothing to do w/ the Pip/Clyde comparison...honestly I can't pick between the two, and as I said before, I could see the argument for both. My point was that, just like there are some people here that severely underrate Pippen (mostly ppl like Blitz), I feel like now there are others that severely overrate him. I mean, don't get me wrong that 1994 season was EXTREMELY impressive and should be taken into account. In fact it proves that Pippen is underrated..... but it's also not the end-all of Scottie's abilities. You can't take that one solitary season, compare it to other season's of other all time greats, and say Pippen > Player X because he had a higher "win rate" in 1994 (and by Player X I don't just mean Jordan, you guys have been comparing him to everyone). There are just too many factors to consider in a successful season...be it coaching, motivation levels, injuries, competition, etc etc etc.

And 97 Bulls I totally respect your appreciation for Pippen, ur clearly a true Bulls fan...yet I can't help to notice that some of the other Bulls players are getting trashed here. We've heard the "MJ won w/ a bunch of scrubs" argument, and now we're hearing the "Pippen did it all himself in 94" too. I mean think about it, here's an example....in 98 Pippen goes down....Jordan is left all alone w/ a cast of players that seem very mediocre. On top of that, he has a damaged wrist/knuckle and shoots 40% for the first 15-20 games. On paper, this team seems pretty screwed....but what happens? They go 24-11, a very respectable record. I mean, prime Jordan in the 80s could hardly ever accomplish a 24-11 record, how did he do it at age 35 w/ a major injury, w/o Pippen? Can it be that he was leading a crew of veterans who just won 2 straight championships? Guys who were poised, savvy, accustomed to making the right decisions under pressure? Or even other things that stats can't measure - defense, hustle etc? I mean you look at it, they should NOT have done that well, especially in light of Jordan's injury, but they did. Similarly, the 94 Bulls had just come off a 3-PEAT, they were a bunch of playoff-hardened guys accustomed to winning, can't that have been a factor? Or was it ALL Pippen that year, while no one else showed up? Both accomplishments were pretty impressive, IMO, and shouldn't have happened, but it did. Wierd stuff just happens sometimes.

Wow this is a really long post lmao. My point is that the 94 season was really impressive, but IMO not the end-all of basketball discussions/player comparisons. I mean I've seen someone claim that Jordan made things easier for his teammates, and then Roundball Rock comes over and says "that's stupid, the FG% of all his teammates increased in 94 when he was gone". I mean, really????? Suddenly, the 1994 season proves Jordan made his teammates worse? Stuff like that is what annoys me here. Every year is different, circumstances change, and one year doesn't prove everything. That's what I'm saying. Otherwise, we are simply to assume that 35 year old Jordan with a cracked wrist is capable of leading the Bulls to 55 wins w/o Pippen, a feat that he couldn't even accomplish in his prime. Totally different situation, shoulldn't be used as exclusive proof of Jordan's abilities.

I agree with chitown. Great post :applause:

[97 bulls]

You seem like a Bulls fan so how do you feel about Jordan fans taking literally every chance they get to trash his teammates from his rookie season onwards? Gotta be pretty annoying. You can like Jordan (like I do) but I'd have to think that real Bulls fans must hate his fans, especially since half of them claim to be Bulls fans too (we had an alleged die hard Bulls fan defend the Hollins call, another one made a Scottie Pippen is overrated thread, no appreciation for any other player on the team etc etc).
first, im def. a bulls fan. and it does get annoying when people basically diminish the contributions of the other guys on the bulls to favor jordan. like i said before, you cant have alltime discussions without including jordans teammates. greatest rebounder ever and defender? rodmans has to be in this discussion. greatest all-around player ever or perimeter defender ever pip must be included. greatest 6 man ever? i could make a case for kukoc. greatest european player ever once again kukoc must be in the debate. greatest 3pt shooter ever? stats say steve kerr. and i could make argument that i wouldnt mind him taking the a game winning j. greatest coach ever? 10 rings bro come on, phil jackson.

and ive never heard one pippen supporter claim that hes better than jordan. they just want him to get his due. jordans accomplishmets stand on their own, they dont need to include pips failures. but as far as his accomplishments go, i remember when the debate over who was better between him and the others like kareem or wilt or russell was the norm. and jordan supporters like me said it was him and we got all kinds of stats thrown at us showing the dominace of those two centers or the rings that russell won. and jordan fans would always include equalizers such as PACE or ERA or the STYLE of basketball played in the centers era. which when applied probably puts jordan ahead of them statistically. i think the same logic should be applied to guys like pip. he played in the slowest pace era. in a structured offense and as the second fiddle. and still averaged 20 ppg. he played with rebounders that were much better than other greats rebounders and still managed to get an amount that is equall to if not better than most other greats that he compared too. he got a good amount of assists even though he played in a structured offense in which he never dominated the ball. and thus i always wonder why is it so hard to think that pip couldnt put up similar numbers to a bird or magic? drexler was close and he couldnt dribble. look at some of his highlights, he always dribbled with his head down. and thats a nono. and yet he put up numbers similar to bird in his bests years. so why couldnt pip? id say that offensively they were about the same with a slight edge to pip for his pg skills. and defensively its no contest. all im sayn is look at the big picture and think outside the box.

[Chalkmaze]

drexler was close and he couldnt dribble. look at some of his highlights, he always dribbled with his head down.

Actually, he dribbled just fine, fundamental mistakes or not.

[millwad]

Enough is enough, stop comparing a 2nd option guy to a guy who was the 1st option for years. Clyde led his teams to 2 finals, Pippen quit on his team as the leader...

I can't believe how much you're overrating Pippen, Pippen without Jordan would be just another Nique or light-Barkley. Pippen didn't have qualites to be the franchise player, he was a damn good baller and definitely among the 50 greatest but Clyde is better than him. I find it funny though that a guy that was born 83 and didn't start to watch basketball until 94 according to himself is pulling his pants down and waiting to get ****ed by Pippen....

[97 bulls]

Actually, he dribbled just fine, fundamental mistakes or not.
i read in a few earlier post that drex was a better dribbler. thats not true.

[97 bulls]

Enough is enough, stop comparing a 2nd option guy to a guy who was the 1st option for years. Clyde led his teams to 2 finals, Pippen quit on his team as the leader...

I can't believe how much you're overrating Pippen, Pippen without Jordan would be just another Nique or light-Barkley. Pippen didn't have qualites to be the franchise player, he was a damn good baller and definitely among the 50 greatest but Clyde is better than him. I find it funny though that a guy that was born 83 and didn't start to watch basketball until 94 according to himself is pulling his pants down and waiting to get ****ed by Pippen....
nobody is overrating pip bro. its the truth. and all the accomplishments pip achieved and all you can say is that he quit on his team? the man sacrificed his whole career for his team. if your a bulls fan you should be ashamed.

[Chalkmaze]

i read in a few earlier post that drex was a better dribbler. thats not true.

Yet you went so far as to say Drexler couldn't dribble, that's not true either.

A case could be made that Drexler was the better dribbler, I think it's a hard case to prove, so wouldn't be worth getting into, it's all very subjective.

They were both had pretty good handles for their size, and I'd leave it at that.

[97 bulls]

Yet you went so far as to say Drexler couldn't dribble, that's not true either.

A case could be made that Drexler was the better dribbler, I think it's a hard case to prove, so wouldn't be worth getting into, it's all very subjective.

They were both had pretty good handles for their size, and I'd leave it at that.
no, if you must dribble with your head down (looking at the ball so you wont loose it or kick it), your not a good dribbler. you can bounce the ball but not dribble. pip was better.

[Chalkmaze]

no, if you must dribble with your head down (looking at the ball so you wont loose it or kick it), your not a good dribbler. you can bounce the ball but not dribble. pip was better.

That's like saying, Shawn Marion can't shoot because his shooting form is totally unorthodox.

Let's ignore results all together than shall we?

[97 bulls]

That's like saying, Shawn Marion can't shoot because his shooting form is totally unorthodox.

Let's ignore results all together than shall we?
lol no its not. thats bball 1A bro dribble with your head up.

[Da_Realist]

nobody is overrating pip bro. its the truth. and all the accomplishments pip achieved and all you can say is that he quit on his team? the man sacrificed his whole career for his team. if your a bulls fan you should be ashamed.

Yet you say nothing when Roundball says,



Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
27-26 (51%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ

*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs

This is the root of MJ stan hatred of Pippen. All Jordan won without Pippen was a few endorsements and a slam dunk contest. MJ could not even muster a freaking winning record without Pippen. 168-169. :roll: :roll: Moreover, to add insult to injury Pippen did better without Jordan than Jordan did without Pippen.

all the accomplishments mj achieved and all Roundball can say is that he has a losing record without Pip on the team? The man sacrificed, played hard on both ends of the court, never complained, never threatened to leave while waiting on management to surround him with good players. He took all the criticism while other stars surrounded with talent won multiple championships.

a real bulls fan should be ashamed to let someone that never saw the Bulls play before the 1993-94 season make such a claim.

Reducing Pippen's contributions as leader of the team to one bad moment is just as stupid as reducing MJ's contributions without Pippen to a win/loss record. You complain about one but not the other. :confusedshrug:

[godofgods]

Clyde is infinitely much better than Pippen.

[Vino24]

Reminder: 2nd option Pippen outplayed Drexler in the 92 finals :biggums:

[Phoenix]

:coleman:

[Turbo Slayer]

:coleman: :roll: Vino24 just bumped a thread that was from 10 years ago! :biggums:

[Roundball_Rock]

Reminder: 2nd option Pippen outplayed Drexler in the 92 finals :biggums:

Yeah it is funny we see these comparisons. Pippen outplayed Drexler, Ewing, Miller etc. in series.