Pau Gasol vs. Scottie Pippen - who is the better second fiddle?

[hall of fame]

Pau Gasol vs. Scottie Pippen

Who is better and more dominant out of these two second fiddles?

Which one would lead a team to more wins as the "main man" assuming both had equally talented rosters?

[juju151111]

Scottie Pippen is better.

[Bigsmoke]

they are too different...

... but i guess i rather have Pippen on my team... then against Paul Gasol did the impossible with the Grizzles before...

not sure... i guess Gasol since he help the Lakers win 65 games while Bynum was out nearly half the year.

[L.Kizzle]

LOL

[KubiliusF]

No Pau no Ring

[DuMa]

depends on who is your first option is.

[hall of fame]

they are too different...

... but i guess i rather have Pippen on my team... then against Paul Gasol did the impossible with the Grizzles before...

not sure... i guess Gasol since he help the Lakers win 65 games while Bynum was out nearly half the year.
Good point. Bynum stinks and Gasol was able to prove that he was the much better player.

This debate between Pippen and Gasol is very close. Pippen's career looks more accomplished, but Ewing, Barkley or Malone could have gone from ringless to having plenty of rings playing next to Jordan, who was much better than Wilt and Kareem.

[L.Kizzle]

Good point. Bynum stinks and Gasol was able to prove that he was the much better player.

This debate between Pippen and Gasol is very close. Pippen's career looks more accomplished, but Ewing, Barkley or Malone could have gone from ringless to having plenty of rings playing next to Jordan, who was much better than Wilt and Kareem.
Are we comparing Pau to Ewing and Barkley. He's not even on Tom Chambers level.

[Bodhi]

As a first option, Scottie Pippen no question. Gasol couldn't win a single playoff game as the first first option.

As the second option, it's a lot closer and depends on the kind of player you have as your number one. Pippen can be your primary ball handler, which helps if your first option doesn't need to have the ball in his hands but less important otherwise.

Pippen is obviously the better player and he complimented Jordan better than Gasol would have. But I think that Gasol works better with Kobe than Pippen would have. Different players need different things.

[loot]

whoa now... am i missing sarcasm here? pippen vs pow? jc

[Enigmatism]

LOL
What he said^

[T-bomb 25]

Are we comparing Pau to Ewing and Barkley. He's not even on Tom Chambers level.This,but Chambers was a beast though.

[Maniak]

whoa now... am i missing sarcasm here? pippen vs pow? jc
The OP is BULLS(hit) :ohwell:. I think that sums that up.

And Pimpin Pippen all phucking day.

[L.Kizzle]

This,but Chambers was a beast though.
Exacly. Hell, is he even Tom Gugliotta or Danny Manning??

[T-bomb 25]

Good point. Bynum stinks and Gasol was able to prove that he was the much better player.

This debate between Pippen and Gasol is very close. Pippen's career looks more accomplished, but Ewing, Barkley or Malone could have gone from ringless to having plenty of rings playing next to Jordan, who was much better than Wilt and Kareem.Your a moron,Malone,Barkley,and Ewings are superstar ATG's, Pippen is the greatest second fiddle of all time at least in the modern era,and he's knowwhere any of them as a 1st option,get real and stop sniffin the glue,you should'nt even be bringing them up with Pippen.

[T-bomb 25]

Exacly. Hell, is he even Tom Gugliotta or Danny Manning??Way better than both.

[SESSEL15]

This is a joke right? ****ing Lakers fans love to overrate their players. This should be nominated for Worst Thread of the Year.

[L.Kizzle]

Way better than both.
You sure??

[hall of fame]

Your a moron,Malone,Barkley,and Ewings are superstar ATG's, Pippen is the greatest second fiddle of all time at least in the modern era,and he's knowwhere any of them as a 1st option,get real and stop sniffin the glue,you should'nt even be bringing them up with Pippen.
Jordan + Gasol = dynasty easily.

Imagine if Jordan had a 19/9/4/55 FG% 7 footer playing PF or C instead of the offensively challenged Dennis Rodman and Luc Longley, who COMBINED for around 8 ppg on pathetic efficiency.

Gasol > Rodman + Longley.

[Maniak]

Jordan + Gasol = dynasty easily.

Imagine if Jordan had a 19/9/4/55 FG% 7 footer playing PF or C instead of the offensively challenged Dennis Rodman and Luc Longley, who COMBINED for around 8 ppg on pathetic efficiency.

Gasol > Rodman + Longley.
:oldlol:

You are sooooooo funny!

[BFRESH44]

:oldlol:

You are sooooooo funny!

I find it to be a legitimate arguement to be honest.

Jordan playing with a legit and skilled 7 footer? Good night(even moreseo than it already was, im talking an 8-peat).

[hall of fame]

Maniak, please just shut up.

Everyone with common sense knows Gasol is > Rodman and Longley.

[Maniak]

Maniak, please just shut up.

Everyone with common sense knows Gasol is > Rodman and Longley.
Well I guess I have no common sense.

Speaking of which, where do you rank Wilt Chamberlain all time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Your a moron,Malone,Barkley,and Ewings are superstar ATG's, Pippen is the greatest second fiddle of all time at least in the modern era,and he's knowwhere any of them as a 1st option,get real and stop sniffin the glue,you should'nt even be bringing them up with Pippen.

:oldlol: When Pippen had his one full prime season without Jordan he outperformed all those guys you mentioned.

Pippen was arguably the best player in the NBA at his peak. He definitely was considered consensus top 3 at his peak and top 5 for several seasons. Pau Gasol is probably not even top 5 at his position. Gasol's production is on par with that of Boozer and Bosh, once you factor out the deflation of his stats by playing with Kobe. Dirk, Duncan, KG, and Amare are all clearly better. Gasol is anywhere from 5th-7th at his position. Pippen was the best SF of the 90's.

[wang4three]

Gasol is overrated as a player recently. People tend to forget this guy went 0-12 in the playoffs before he teamed up with Kobe.

[justin43]

Gasol is overrated as a player recently. People tend to forget this guy went 0-12 in the playoffs before he teamed up with Kobe.

This.

[TheAnchorman]

Rodman FTW and for HOF pls.

[T-bomb 25]

:oldlol: When Pippen had his one full prime season without Jordan he outperformed all those guys you mentioned.

Pippen was arguably the best player in the NBA at his peak. He definitely was considered consensus top 3 at his peak and top 5 for several seasons. Pau Gasol is probably not even top 5 at his position. Gasol's production is on par with that of Boozer and Bosh, once you factor out the deflation of his stats by playing with Kobe. Dirk, Duncan, KG, and Amare are all clearly better. Gasol is anywhere from 5th-7th at his position. Pippen was the best SF of the 90's.Im not even gonna give you response about Pippen being better than Ewing,Malone,and Barkley and actually Penny was the best at that time he owned Pippen.Amare cant be mentioned in the same breath as Dirk,KG,and deffinetly not Duncan never, and he's not better than Gasol, Boozer and deffinetlly not Bosh,you have Amare way to overrated.

[ProfessorMurder]

Horace Grant and Rodman were great bigs to play with Jordan. Grant was way more of a beast than people give him credit for.



Pippen>>>>>>>Pau

[hall of fame]

Hahahahahahahahaha at someone calling Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman "great" big men when they were nowhere near great.

[Roundball_Rock]

Actually Penny was he owned Pippen,and Amare cant be mentioned in the same breath as Dirk,KG,or Duncan and he's not better than Gasol, Boozer and deffinetlly not Bosh,you have Amare way to overrated.

Duncan21formvp, you forgot when I showed you the Pippen vs. Penny game logs. Pippen almost had a quadruple double on Penny once! :oldlol: Penny's peak came in 1996, Pippen's came in 94' or 95'. It was 94' in terms of recognition. Pippen was still considered better than penny in 96', though. Penny's numbers plummeted without Shaq--Pippen thrived without Jordan.

Amare is a far superior scorer than Gasol/Boozer/Bosh and since none are great defenders that puts Amare above them.

[Dengness9]

Pippen's right testicle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau Gaysol.

No seriously Gasol tosses salad and sucks ****. Have you seen that Juan Carlos /Pau sex tape. Faggits.


Rodman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gasol

so

Rodman/Longley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gasol


T-bomb and Hall of Fame are homosexuals.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I usually go with the center or big man, but I have to pick Pippen. he was a triple double threat every single night, he was his team's point guard pretty much at 6'8" and he was a good enough scorer to be a first option and 22 ppg scorer on a damn good team. Not to mention he's arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

This is not a hard choice.

[T-bomb 25]

Pippen's right testicle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pau Gaysol.

No seriously Gasol tosses salad and sucks ****. Have you seen that Juan Carlos /Pau sex tape. Faggits.


Rodman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gasol

so

Rodman/Longley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gasol


T-bomb and Hall of Fame are homosexuals.I would ***** smack your punk ass.

[oh the horror]

Some of you really need to sign off and relax. Its just a question.


Some of you can disagree, and some of you can agree, and have a healthy debate.


Acting like a disrespectful little mouthy b*tch over a computer isnt cool.


Some of you really need to check your little funky attitudes at the door here. I realize some of you are YOUNG, but really, what is the problem here?


Relax.

[T-bomb 25]

Duncan21formvp, you forgot when I showed you the Pippen vs. Penny game logs. Pippen almost had a quadruple double on Penny once! :oldlol: Penny's peak came in 1996, Pippen's came in 94' or 95'. It was 94' in terms of recognition. Pippen was still considered better than penny in 96', though. Penny's numbers plummeted without Shaq--Pippen thrived without Jordan.

Amare is a far superior scorer than Gasol/Boozer/Bosh and since none are great defenders that puts Amare above them.With no postgame no way is he even a top PF,he's stats are just inflated because he plays for Phoenix,Penny abused Pippen in those days,your picking out 1 game against Penny.

[ProfessorMurder]

Hahahahahahahahaha at someone calling Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman "great" big men when they were nowhere near great.

I said great bigs to play with Jordan dipsh*t.

In '91-'92 Horace Grant had 14.2 ppg, 10 rpg, 2.7 ast, 1.2 bpg, and 1.6 stls per game. He shot 57.8% from the field and 74.1% FT in 81 games on only took 9.8 shots per game.

He really was better than people give him credit for. Plus Jordan/Pippen were obviously the #1 and #2.

[NBASTATMAN]

Pau Gasol vs. Scottie Pippen

Who is better and more dominant out of these two second fiddles?

Which one would lead a team to more wins as the "main man" assuming both had equally talented rosters?


Pau is very good and has shown he is a top player in the current league... Easily the best second best player on any team in the league... Pau has a chance to be on that Pippen level...

I would say Pippen is the better second fiddle.. He won 6 titles.. Pau has won 1...

[catch24]

Pip without question. Productive on both ends, and has proven to be a semi decent first option too :D

[Roundball_Rock]

With no postgame no way is he even a top PF,he's stats are just inflated because he plays for Phoenix,Penny abused Pippen in those days,your picking out 1 game against Penny.

The exact phrasing used by Duncan21formvp. :roll: Again, reread the game logs.

What exactly is Gasol's case for being a top 5 PF? How are we comparing someone who is arguably not even a top 5 player at his position to someone who was a top 5 player in the NBA for several seasons?


In '91-'92 Horace Grant had 14.2 ppg, 10 rpg, 2.7 ast, 1.2 bpg, and 1.6 stls per game. He shot 57.8% from the field and 74.1% FT in 81 games on only took 9.8 shots per game.

That is "great"?


Pau is very good and has shown he is a top player in the current league... Easily the best second best player on any team in the league... Pau has a chance to be on that Pippen level...

So in your opinion Pau will someday become a MVP candidate and a top 5 player in the NBA?


has proven to be a semi decent first option too

Ranking 8th in scoring as the de facto PG of your team is only "semi decent"?

Pippen proved he could make his teammates better. Very few players have this ability; Gasol is not one of them.

[NBASTATMAN]

I said great bigs to play with Jordan dipsh*t.

In '91-'92 Horace Grant had 14.2 ppg, 10 rpg, 2.7 ast, 1.2 bpg, and 1.6 stls per game. He shot 57.8% from the field and 74.1% FT in 81 games on only took 9.8 shots per game.

He really was better than people give him credit for. Plus Jordan/Pippen were obviously the #1 and #2.


Lamar had those type of numbers last year after Pau goined the team.... I think playing with KOBE AND GASOL or in grants case mj and pip helps guys like lamar and grant.. Grant was nothing after he left the bulls..

[T-bomb 25]

The exact phrasing used by Duncan21formvp. :roll: Again, reread the game logs.

What exactly is Gasol's case for being a top 5 PF? How are we comparing someone who is arguably not even a top 5 player at his position to someone who was a top 5 player in the NBA for several seasons?



That is "great"?



So in your opinion Pau will someday become a MVP candidate and a top 5 player in the NBA?



Ranking 8th in scoring as the de facto PG of your team is only "semi decent"?

Pippen proved he could make his teammates better. Very few players have this ability; Gasol is not one of them.Sorry Amare was never top5 at no time in the league,you must mean when he was in high school.lol:lol

[T-bomb 25]

Apparently you would tap Penny's ass the way your riding him in this thread.No but i would tap you in your jaw,with a straight righthand sucka.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry Amare was never top5 at no time in the league,you must mean when he was in high school.lol:lol

I meant Pippen. NBAStatman believes Gasol may reach Pippen's level.


Grant was nothing after he left the bulls..

That isn't true. He was as good in Orlando as he was in Chicago, aside from him raising his game in 94'. Grant was a very good player but, as you said, he was a Lamar Odom caliber player. He was not a "great" player, though.

[NBASTATMAN]

[


So in your opinion Pau will someday become a MVP candidate and a top 5 player in the NBA?



Pippen was a top 5 player for maybe 1 or two years...Second you have stated in the past that Chuck Daly stated that Pippen alongside MJ was the best player in the Dream team.. I do not remember that.. I remember Chuck stating that MJ was two times as good as any other player on that team...

Kg is getting old, so is duncan.. Pau had a great season this year and won just as many player of the month awards as Kobe... The guy is playing great... With the vets getting old and Pau still in his prime he has a chance to win a MVP and maybe becoming a top 5 Player in the league... Pau has already outplayed the best center in the league in the FINALS... Pau showed he is a good defender and very good offensive player.... It is hard for Pau to put up the stats because he is playing with alot of offensive talent around him.. Once Bynum was injured Pau played the best ball on the LAKER team... He won player of the month in feb and was also great in MARCH...

[Dengness9]

[


So in your opinion Pau will someday become a MVP candidate and a top 5 player in the NBA?



Pippen was a top 5 player for maybe 1 or two years...Second you have stated in the past that Chuck Daly stated that Pippen alongside MJ was the best player in the Dream team.. I do not remember that.. I remember Chuck stating that MJ was two times as good as any other player on that team...

Kg is getting old, so is duncan.. Pau had a great season this year and won just as many player of the month awards as Kobe... The guy is playing great... With the vets getting old and Pau still in his prime he has a chance to win a MVP and maybe becoming a top 5 Player in the league... Pau has already outplayed the best center in the league in the FINALS... Pau showed he is a good defender and very good offensive player.... It is hard for Pau to put up the stats because he is playing with alot of offensive talent around him.. Once Bynum was injured Pau played the best ball on the LAKER team... He won player of the month in feb and was also great in MARCH...

Dont you realize that if Kevin Garnett was healthy, Gasol would have 0 titles and would have been slapped around like a female on the inside again by the Celtics.

Lakers 09 title is the same as Barry Bonds home run numbers.

**************************asterisks everywhere

[hall of fame]

Dengness9 2 years ago:

"I'm so stupid and in love with Luol Deng that I wouldn't trade him for Kobe Bryant. That's how big of a doofus I am!!!"

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

I meant Pippen. NBAStatman believes Gasol may reach Pippen's level.



That isn't true. He was as good in Orlando as he was in Chicago, aside from him raising his game in 94'. Grant was a very good player but, as you said, he was a Lamar Odom caliber player. He was not a "great" player, though.



Yes Grant was a Lamar caliber type of player but with less offensive abilities...

As for Gasol reaching Pippens level.. He can... Watch the guy, he already has a great resume... Pippen's stats are not all that great.. ... Though many of the guys here make him out to be one of the top 15 players to ever play the game..... :roll:


Pippen avg like 17 pts a game in his career.. Though he is one of the best defensive players the league has known.. ONly time will tell...

[hall of fame]

You should have heard the predictions this bum made. Kid was so dumb that he honestly thought Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas was too much to give up for Kobe Bryant. ROFLMAO!!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

I have to go find those posts. :roll: :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

You dodged the question. Will Gasol ever be a top 5 player in the NBA?

Gasol's stats in Memphis were on par with Boozer and Bosh's. He is approximately as good as them but no one has Boozer and Bosh as top 5 players in the NBA and usually only Bosh makes people's top 10 lists.

Pippen was on both the all-NBA first team and the all-defensive first team for three straight seasons. That by definition means he was considered to be more than just a top 5 player...In 97' and 92' he was on the all-NBA second team and all-defensive first team and would have done this again in 98' if he did not miss half the season. In 97' he deserved to be on the all-NBA first team but by then the hype around Grant Hill, then seen as along with Penny being MJ's successor as the face of the league, was so huge Hill was given that spot even they Pippen and Hill were similar offensively but Pippen was far better defensively.


Pippen avg like 17 pts a game in his career..

And? That is because he played until he was 38 and had a pass first mentality. Isiah Thomas averaged "only" 19 ppg and he played until he was 31 so he did not have several "old man" seasons to drag his stats down.

[NBASTATMAN]

Dont you realize that if Kevin Garnett was healthy, Gasol would have 0 titles and would have been slapped around like a female on the inside again by the Celtics.

Lakers 09 title is the same as Barry Bonds home run numbers.

**************************asterisks everywhere


This may be true.. But what am I going to diss kobe and Pau for kg's injury...:wtf:

[Dengness9]

You should have heard the predictions this bum made. Kid was so dumb that he honestly thought Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas was too much to give up for Kobe Bryant. ROFLMAO!!!!:roll: :roll: :roll:

I have to go find those posts. :roll: :oldlol:




At the time KOBE BRYANT didn't even want to come to the Bulls unless Deng was here. He wouldn't accept the trade unless Deng was excluded.

NOW WHAT????!!!! BULLS..... ******.

Still sucking Kobe's dick after all these years, you must be salty.

[juju151111]

You dodged the question. Will Gasol ever be a top 5 player in the NBA?

Gasol's stats in Memphis were on par with Boozer and Bosh's. He is approximately as good as them but no one has Boozer and Bosh as top 5 players in the NBA and usually only Bosh makes people's top 10 lists.

Pippen was on both the all-NBA first team and the all-defensive first team for three straight seasons. That by definition means he was considered to be more than just a top 5 player...In 97' and 92' he was on the all-NBA second team and all-defensive first team and would have done this again in 98' if he did not miss half the season. In 97' he deserved to be on the all-NBA first team but by then the hype around Grant Hill, then seen as along with Penny being MJ's successor as the face of the league, was so huge Hill was given that spot even they Pippen and Hill were similar offensively but Pippen was far better defensively.



And? That is because he played until he was 38 and had a pass first mentality. Isiah Thomas averaged "only" 19 ppg and he played until he was 31 so he did not have several "old man" seasons to drag his stats down.
Gasol could be a top 5 player. People say they shut down gasol in 08 finals when Gasol shot over 50%. They also gave away a crucial game where they were up by like 25 pts and we now Gasol/Odom was the reason they were up by that many. Duncan,KG, and Shaq are getting old every year. If not top 5 he will be top 5 PF.

[hall of fame]

LOL the loser Dungness9 thought his hero was too good to be traded for Kobe freaking Bryant!! LMFAO!!:roll: :roll:

What a loser that kid is.

Hop off your hero's nuts Dungless9!! LOL!!:roll:

[hall of fame]

Here are some more recent predictions made by Dungness9:

"Carlos Boozer will be traded to Chicago and I guarantee it!!!"

"Dwyane Wade is signing with the Bulls in 2010!!!"

How can you take this idiot seriously? What a pathetic kid!:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Gasol could be a top 5 player. People say they shut down gasol in 08 finals when Gasol shot over 50%. They also gave away a crucial game where they were up by like 25 pts and we now Gasol/Odom was the reason they were up by that many. Duncan,KG, and Shaq are getting old every year. If not top 5 he will be top 5 PF.

Top 5 PF? Yes, at some point. The question is whether he can be a top 5 player overall in the NBA like Pippen was (who was also the best SF of the 90's). That is the caliber of player he is being compared to.

[juju151111]

Top 5 PF? Yes, at some point. The question is whether he can be a top 5 player overall in the NBA like Pippen was (who was also the best SF of the 90's). That is the caliber of player he is being compared to.
Who was playing better at the PF postion then Pau Gasol Last season??

[juju151111]

Who was playing better at the PF postion then Pau Gasol Last season??
:confusedshrug: :confusedshrug: Somebody answer me

[jjayfive]

i would take a healthy
KG over pau
dirk is a better PF... but i like Pau's game more... duncan when healthy is still better but not by much... i'll take pau over boozer, west and bosh...

pip>>Pau

[chitownsfinest]

Top 5 PF? Yes, at some point. The question is whether he can be a top 5 player overall in the NBA like Pippen was (who was also the best SF of the 90's). That is the caliber of player he is being compared to.
While the answer is clearly Pip (by far), I fail to see how he isn't even a top 5 pf. Ever since the Pau trade, La has gone 92-26 in the regular season, made the finals twice, and won one championship. How does a player with that type of impact not even be a top 5 pf? You have to look beyond stats when ranking him. He has made scoring easier for his teammates, is extremely efficient himself, has adjusted to the triangle, is one of the best post players in the league, and is extremely skilled. His help defense is also great and is what helped slow down Dwight Howard.

[juju151111]

While the answer is clearly Pip (by far), I fail to see how he isn't even a top 5 pf. Ever since the Pau trade, La has gone 92-26 in the regular season, made the finals twice, and won one championship. How does a player with that type of impact not even be a top 5 pf? You have to look beyond stats when ranking him. He has made scoring easier for his teammates, is extremely efficient himself, has adjusted to the triangle, is one of the best post players in the league, and is extremely skilled. His help defense is also great and is what helped slow down Dwight Howard.
:applause: He has the stats too. The only player who was better was all jerffereson, but he was injured. Pau was the best PF last year.

[NBASTATMAN]

You dodged the question. Will Gasol ever be a top 5 player in the NBA?

Gasol's stats in Memphis were on par with Boozer and Bosh's. He is approximately as good as them but no one has Boozer and Bosh as top 5 players in the NBA and usually only Bosh makes people's top 10 lists.

Pippen was on both the all-NBA first team and the all-defensive first team for three straight seasons. That by definition means he was considered to be more than just a top 5 player...In 97' and 92' he was on the all-NBA second team and all-defensive first team and would have done this again in 98' if he did not miss half the season. In 97' he deserved to be on the all-NBA first team but by then the hype around Grant Hill, then seen as along with Penny being MJ's successor as the face of the league, was so huge Hill was given that spot even they Pippen and Hill were similar offensively but Pippen was far better defensively.



And? That is because he played until he was 38 and had a pass first mentality. Isiah Thomas averaged "only" 19 ppg and he played until he was 31 so he did not have several "old man" seasons to drag his stats down.



I believe Gasol is better than Bosh and much better than Boozer.. Bosh had a team loaded with talent and they did nothing this year.. Boozer is going to be LESS EFFECTIVE without Deron Williams getting him all those easy looks... Gasol on the other hand has put up numbers no matter what.. Gasol is the better passer and has shown he is a very good defensive player... As for being top 5 .. He has a chance...

Besides kg and duncan who else at the pf spot has his overall game.. No other player in the league has his skill set at the power forward position... Those guys are getting older .. He is going into his prime.. Gasol may or may not reach the first team all nba.. Scottie was the best small forward in the league but that doesn't mean he was better than say second team centers or power forwards.. I don't think Deron is on any NBA team yet I don't think there are 15 players better than him in the league..


Either way, time will tell... Pau with more opps to score will flourish... He has already won 50 games as the teams best player.. He was young then.. He can do alot more now... At this point Scottie is the better second option..


Now that Duncan and Kg are old pau will become the best pf....

[NBASTATMAN]

While the answer is clearly Pip (by far), I fail to see how he isn't even a top 5 pf. Ever since the Pau trade, La has gone 92-26 in the regular season, made the finals twice, and won one championship. How does a player with that type of impact not even be a top 5 pf? You have to look beyond stats when ranking him. He has made scoring easier for his teammates, is extremely efficient himself, has adjusted to the triangle, is one of the best post players in the league, and is extremely skilled. His help defense is also great and is what helped slow down Dwight Howard.


He also was great in WIN SHares and his PER was as good as YAO MINGS'.... He plays with Kobe so his numbers won't be as good as say Duncan who is his teams number one option.. Still he shoots better and passes better than Duncan.. Pau's PER was better than KG's ...

[Bigsmoke]

lol i'm like the only one in this thread who rather have Gasol on their team than Pippen.

i swear Pippen has to be the most overrated just because he won 55 games without Jordan in the mix. Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, and Toni Kukoc were all scrubs.. i know.

[Twiens]

Who was playing better at the PF postion then Pau Gasol Last season??

I would still take the following over him:

-KG
-Duncan
-Dirk
-Bosh

-Gasol
-Boozer

I'm one of the biggest Gasol fans on here, but there's no way he's better than KG/Dirk/Timmy. Bosh is definitely arguable though.

[Bigsmoke]

I would still take the following over him:

-KG
-Duncan
-Dirk
-Bosh

-Gasol
-Boozer

I'm one of the biggest Gasol fans on here, but there's no way he's better than KG/Dirk/Timmy. Bosh is definitely arguable though.


i'm not even a Laker fan but Duncan and KG were hurt most of last season.

and come on dude... it doesnt hurt to be a little biased now... Gasol fans should know

Gasol > Bosh

but yea

Dirk > Gasol

[NBASTATMAN]

Top 5 PF? Yes, at some point. The question is whether he can be a top 5 player overall in the NBA like Pippen was (who was also the best SF of the 90's). That is the caliber of player he is being compared to.


NAME 5 PF's that are better than GASOL.... :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

i'm not even a Laker fan but Duncan and KG were hurt most of last season.

and come on dude... it doesnt hurt to be a little biased now... Gasol fans should know

Gasol > Bosh

but yea

Dirk > Gasol


I agree with Dirk being a better player than Gasol...

[Twiens]

i'm not even a Laker fan but Duncan and KG were hurt most of last season.

and come on dude... it doesnt hurt to be a little biased now... Gasol fans should know

Gasol > Bosh

but yea

Dirk > Gasol

Meh I guess. Bosh reminds of alot of Gasol with the Grizz. Neither is really good enough to be a legit #1 option for a contender, but Chris would make a perfect 2nd option just like Gasol has in LA.

[NBASTATMAN]

THE BEST 5 BIGS, Ming is not counted since you cannot win with a guy who can't play...


DUNCAN
HOWARD
KG
DIRK
GASOL

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: When Pippen had his one full prime season without Jordan he outperformed all those guys you mentioned.

Pippen was arguably the best player in the NBA at his peak. He definitely was considered consensus top 3 at his peak and top 5 for several seasons.

Pippen was never "consensus top 3". He was top 5 for 2-3 seasons, and top 5-7 for about 5-6 seasons. If we assume his peak to be 1994, he was NOT the "consensus" choice over Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Ewing/Malone that year. He may have been over one or two of them on some people's lists, but not above 4 of those 6 on EVERYONE'S list, which is what "consensus" implies.

PS: did I just see someone call Grant a "beast"? :oldlol: He averaged 13 pts/9.5 rebs during the first three-peat. He had zero offensive game, and the majority of his points were garbage point on hustle plays or offensive boards, or easy layups/dunks off of MJ/Pip penetrations. But yeah, he was a "beast." :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Meh I guess. Bosh reminds of alot of Gasol with the Grizz. Neither is really good enough to be a legit #1 option for a contender, but Chris would make a perfect 2nd option just like Gasol has in LA.


Bosh doesn't have Gasol skill level though..

[Roundball_Rock]

i swear Pippen has to be the most overrated just because he won 55 games without Jordan in the mix. Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, and Toni Kukoc were all scrubs.. i know.

They were on pace for struggling to reach 30 wins without Pippen. :oldlol: 55 wins? They were on their way to 59-60 wins if Pippen played the entire season. They were the best team in the East that year almost solely because of Pippen and yet he is being compared to Gasol who won 50 games and was swept in the first round in his best season in Memphis?

Dirk is clearly the best PF in the NBA right now. I would place Duncan second. His offensive numbers are still similar to the other top PF's and he is a much better defender than Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Gasol. Healthy KG is probably third but this is speculation. We need to see how KG actually performs next season. Gasol has a case for 4th but Amare, Bosh, and Boozer all have cases over him. He is anywhere from the 4th to the 7th best PF in the NBA.

Gasol is 28 years old. He is in his prime. He is basically as good as he is going to be. He simply is not a MVP caliber player like Pippen was. In fact, Gasol has never received a single MVP vote.


Scottie was the best small forward in the league but that doesn't mean he was better than say second team centers or power forwards.

Yes, but first team all-NBA players are generally considered to be among the top 5-7 players in the NBA, right? What about a player who makes both the first team all-NBA and the first all-defensive team? That suggests that player is a lot more than a player who barely cracks the top 5. That suggests a top 3 player at least...

[catch24]

Pippen was never "consensus top 3". He was top 5 for 2-3 seasons, and top 5-7 for about 5-6 seasons. If we assume his peak to be 1994, he was NOT the "consensus" choice over Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Malone that year. He may have been over one or two of them on some people's lists, but not above 3 of those 5 on EVERYONE'S list, which is what "consensus" implies.

PS: did I just see someone call Grant a "beast"? :oldlol: He averaged 13 pts/9.5 rebs during the first three-peat. He had zero offensive game, and the majority of his points were garbage point on hustle plays or offensive boards, or easy layups/dunks off of MJ/Pip penetrations. But yeah, he was a "beast." :oldlol:

Yeah definitely not consensus. Though during the '94-'96 seasons, players/peers & coaches have been quoted calling him the second-third best player in the league.

Gasol is one of if NOT the most skilled offensive PF in the league, to me at least. Overall? Eh...

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen was never "consensus top 3". He was top 5 for 2-3 seasons, and top 5-7 for about 5-6 seasons. If we assume his peak to be 1994, he was NOT the "consensus" choice over Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Malone that year. He may have been over one or two of them on some people's lists, but not above 3 of those 5 on EVERYONE'S list, which is what "consensus" implies.

PS: did I just see someone call Grant a "beast"? :oldlol: He averaged 13 pts/9.5 rebs during the first three-peat. He had zero offensive game, and the majority of his points were garbage point on hustle plays or offensive boards, or easy layups/dunks off of MJ/Pip penetrations. But yeah, he was a "beast." :oldlol:



I also believe Ewing was also better than Pippen in 1994...

[NBASTATMAN]

Yeah definitely not consensus. Though during the '94-'96 seasons, players/peers & coaches have been quoted calling him the second-third best player in the league.

Gasol is one of if NOT the most skilled offensive PF in the league, to me at least. Overall? Eh...


Who is more skilled than PAU at the PF position? DIRK.. But he cannot pass or play down low..

[Bigsmoke]

They were on pace for struggling to reach 30 wins without Pippen. :oldlol: 55 wins? They were on their way to 59-60 wins if Pippen played the entire season. They were the best team in the East that year almost solely because of Pippen and yet he is being compared to Gasol who won 50 games and was swept in the first round in his best season in Memphis?

Dirk is clearly the best PF in the NBA right now. I would place Duncan second. His offensive numbers are still similar to the other top PF's and he is a much better defender than Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Gasol. Healthy KG is probably third but this is speculation. We need to see how KG actually performs next season. Gasol has a case for 4th but Amare, Bosh, and Boozer all have cases over him. He is anywhere from the 4th to the 7th best PF in the NBA.

Gasol is 28 years old. He is in his prime. He is basically as good as he is going to be. He simply is not a MVP caliber player like Pippen was. In fact, Gasol has never received a single MVP vote.
...

you dont think by him being in the same team with Jordon kinda up his reputation a little bit. Peja Stojakovic finished 4th in MVP voting back in 2004 even. You think Pippen had the skill to take the Grizzlies to the playoffs 3 times in the row like Pau did. he was 0-12 but come on now. The Bulls were 31

[LA_Showtime]

Is it possible for the lesser 1st option to be a better 2nd option? :wtf:

[juju151111]

I would still take the following over him:

-KG
-Duncan
-Dirk
-Bosh

-Gasol
-Boozer

I'm one of the biggest Gasol fans on here, but there's no way he's better than KG/Dirk/Timmy. Bosh is definitely arguable though.
I Am talking about last season and g barley even plahyed how was he playing better?? Bosh has equal stats to Gasol stoo your BS. Duncan is declining and is not 03 duncan.

[catch24]

Who is more skilled than PAU at the PF position? DIRK.. But he cannot pass or play down low..

Dirk is arguably solely because of his shooting from the outside. I disagree he has a semi decent post game. I hear you though...to me he is the most skilled (Pau).

Overall I'd take Amare and Boozer bar any injuries.

[Big#50]

Kobe when Shaq was winning rings.

[NBASTATMAN]

lol i'm like the only one in this thread who rather have Gasol on their team than Pippen.

i swear Pippen has to be the most overrated just because he won 55 games without Jordan in the mix. Horace Grant, B.J. Armstrong, and Toni Kukoc were all scrubs.. i know.



Part of that team winning 55 games was the that Bulls team having the deepest front court in the league...

BILL WENNINGTON, LUC LONGLEY, GRANT, WILLIAMS, KUKOC, PIPPEN, PURDUE, CARTWRIGT, STACEY KING...


Plus Kukoc, Kerr, and Pete Myers avg around 27 pts a game... Bill wennington also added 7 pts a game.. They played great defense and still were able to win alot of games.. Pippen played great that year...

[NBASTATMAN]

Dirk is arguably solely because of his shooting from the outside. I disagree he has a semi decent post game. I hear you though...to me he is the most skilled (Pau).

Overall I'd take Amare and Boozer bar any injuries.


Problem with both of those guys is they are VERY GOOD because they have played with great setup men like NASH AND WILLIAMS... Kobe is great but he isn't getting Pau the looks NASH and Deron get their power forwards... Still I believe Boozer is too small to help a team win a title.. Only time will tell..

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was never "consensus top 3". He was top 5 for 2-3 seasons, and top 5-7 for about 5-6 seasons. If we assume his peak to be 1994, he was NOT the "consensus" choice over Hakeem/DRob/Shaq/Barkley/Ewing/Malone that year. He may have been over one or two of them on some people's lists, but not above 4 of those 6 on EVERYONE'S list, which is what "consensus" implies.

:oldlol: as expected the MJ stan brigade has arrived. These guys claim they are not intent on diminishing Pippen yet they have a peculiar obsession with quibbling over minor differences, i.e. 8.5 assists versus 10.0 assists, 25 ppg vs 27 ppg, and now top 3 vs. top 5. In each instance Pippen mysteriously comes out on the lower end of their assessment.

Pippen was on both the all-NBA first team and the all-defensive first team in 94', 95', 96', and was robbed of an all-NBA first team selection in 97'. Let's compare these credentials to the other guys you mentioned.

1994: Only Pippen and Hakeem were on both the all-NBA and all-defensive first teams. David Robinson was on both second teams. Shaq was all-NBA third team. Malone was all-NBA first team, Barkley second team, and Ewing actually did not make any all-NBA team. None of these players--including Shaq--made an all-defensive team. In MVP voting Pippen was 3rd behind Hakeem and Robinson with 39% of the vote. Shaq was 4th (29%), Ewing 5th (26%), Malone 7th (2%), and Barkley 10th (0.005%). Yet he was not a top 3 player this season? :roll:

1995: Only Pippen and Robinson were on both the all-NBA and all-defensive first teams. Hakeem was third team all-NBA and actually did not make an all-defensive team that season. Shaq? 2nd team all-NBA, did not make any all-defensive team. Ditto for Barkley. Ewing? He did not make any all-NBA or all-defensive team in 1995. In MVP voting Robinson was 1st, Shaq 2nd, Malone 3rd, Ewing 4th, Hakeem 5th, Barkley 6th, and Pippen 7th. Pippen was 1% behind Barkley and 6% behind Hakeem. His vote was reduced by MJ coming back. It is reasonable to assume he would have finished 5th in MVP Voting that season if MJ did not come back.

Pippen became the second player in history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, and blocks. Yet he finished 7th in Most Valuable Player voting? This is further proof of how underrated he is.

1996: Pippen, Jordan, and Robinson were on both all-NBA and all-defensive first teams. All-NBA summary: Malone 1st, Barkley 3rd, Shaq 3rd, Hakeem 2nd, and Ewing did not make any all-NBA team. Hakeem was on the all-defensive 2nd team. In MVP voting Robinson was 2nd, Hakeem narrowly beat Pippen by 1% for 4th (this was despite Jordan taking away votes from Pippen), Malone 7th, Shaq 9th, Barkley 12th, and Ewing did not receive any MVP votes.

[Roundball_Rock]

Part of that team winning 55 games was the that Bulls team having the deepest front court in the league...

BILL WENNINGTON, LUC LONGLEY, GRANT, WILLIAMS, KUKOC, PIPPEN, PURDUE, CARTWRIGT, STACEY KING...


:roll: :roll: :roll:


Yeah definitely not consensus. Though during the '94-'96 seasons, players/peers & coaches have been quoted calling him the second-third best player in the league.

Exactly yet MJ stans want to pretend that never happened. You know how OSB is. He is obsessed with diminishing Pippen to the point of quibbling over semantics, 2 ppg, or 1.5 apg when it comes to Pippen. It was not "consensus" but it was certainly a majority opinion at the time. Dwight Howard is not "consensus" top 5 right now but he certainly is top 5 in the eyes of a majority of people.


you dont think by him being in the same team with Jordon kinda up his reputation a little bit.

Obviously not. Look at how accolades, MVP award shares, and general reputation when MJ was retired and how it was in 92', 93' and how it declined after MJ came back.


eja Stojakovic finished 4th in MVP voting back in 2004 even.

Yeah, and he was the second leading scorer in the NBA that season. What is your point? Stojakovic had a great season in 04'.


You think Pippen had the skill to take the Grizzlies to the playoffs 3 times in the row like Pau did. he was 0-12 but come on now.

Pippen was in the playoffs 16 straight seasons. :oldlol: @ that question. There is a reason Gasol did not receive a single MVP vote during his days in Memphis.


The Bulls were 34–31 before Jordan came back in 1995. PIPPEN IS GOD!

Yeah, and Jordan was 168-169 without Pippen (excluding 1986). Pippen was 287-159 without Jordan (excluding 2004). Together they regularly won 60+ games (and were on pace for 60+ in 95' if MJ played the entire season) and had four 65+ caliber seasons (72, 69, 67, and they were on pace for 67 in 98' if Pippen played the entire season).

[catch24]

Problem with both of those guys is they are VERY GOOD because they have played with great setup men like NASH AND WILLIAMS... Kobe is great but he isn't getting Pau the looks NASH and Deron get their power forwards... Still I believe Boozer is too small to help a team win a title.. Only time will tell..

I disagree once again. Amare isn't good just "because" of Nash. During the 2003-2004 season (without Nash) he put up 20ppg w/ 9reb (around his career totals ironically). Hell he was rookie of the year prior to that too. Amare would be an allstar bar any injury anywhere he plays realistically. As for Boozer he's averaged the same rebounds and same amount of points for the majority even before Deron started for Utah - around 9-10reb and 17pts: 2004-2005 17.8pts and 9reb (without Deron). Overall I agree, Nash and Deron are better facilitators than Kobe though.

[Bigsmoke]

Yeah, and Jordan was 168-169 without Pippen (excluding 1986). Pippen was 287-159 without Jordan (excluding 2004). Together they regularly won 60+ games (and were on pace for 60+ in 95' if MJ played the entire season) and had four 65+ caliber seasons (72, 69, 67, and they were on pace for 67 in 98' if Pippen played the entire season).

so you're not gonna count Gasol for winning 65 games last season? The Grizzlie is a waste land and u know that. If Gasol was on the 90's Bulls people would say Gasol was one of the greats as well.

[catch24]

Exactly yet MJ stans want to pretend that never happened. You know how OSB is. He is obsessed with diminishing Pippen to the point of quibbling over semantics, 2 ppg, or 1.5 apg when it comes to Pippen. It was not "consensus" but it was certainly a majority opinion at the time. Dwight Howard is not "consensus" top 5 right now but he certainly is top 5 in the eyes of a majority of people.

Pretty much dude. It's pathetic to be honest with you - how does one of the top wing defenders (hell overall players - top 30) get thrown under the bus and disrespected like this?!?!?!???!?!??!!?

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan+Pippen=a great team

Pippen on his own=a top 2-3 player at his peak leading a legit championship contender despite it being riddled by injuries and being short on talent relative to its competition

Kobe+Gasol=another great team.

Gasol on his own=another borderline all-star. Was anyone talking about him being a top 5 PF or a top 10-15 player in the league when he was in Memphis? Was anyone comparing him to HOF'ers then? In contrast, Pippen was better regarded without Jordan.


Pretty much dude. It's pathetic to be honest with you - how does one of the top wing defenders (hell overall players - top 30) get thrown under the bus and disrespected like this?!?!?!???!?!??!!?

They are terrified of people recognizing how great a player MJ played with because they think it diminishes their hero. I don't understand it, though. MJ still had by far the weakest supporting cast of any GOAT candidate. See http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3010218#post3010218 Kareem>Pippen but while Pippen>McHale Pippen/Grant/Paxson/Cartwright<McHale/Parish/Ainge/Johnson and so on.

[catch24]

Jordan+Pippen=a great team

Pippen on his own=a top 2-3 player at his peak leading a legit championship contender despite it being riddled by injuries and being short on talent relative to its competition

Kobe+Gasol=another great team.

Gasol on his own=another borderline all-star. Was anyone talking about him being a top 5 PF or a top 10-15 player in the league when he was in Memphis? Was anyone comparing him to HOF'ers then? In contrast, Pippen was better regarded without Jordan.



They are terrified of people recognizing how great a player MJ played with because they think it diminishes their hero. I don't understand it, though. MJ still had by far the weakest supporting cast of any GOAT candidate. See http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3010218#post3010218 Kareem>Pippen but while Pippen>McHale Pippen/Grant/Paxson/Cartwright<McHale/Parish/Ainge/Johnson and so on.

Didn't get a chance to see that thread, great info :cheers:

Testament to the greatest 1-2 punch of all time!

[U got Served]

obviously pippen

[KenneBell]

While Gasol's post presence and overall offensive reliability and versatility is not be understated, I think Pippen had a bigger impact on the game as a whole.

He had the ball in his hands more often and handled a bigger piece of the defensive game too.

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan+Pippen=a great team

Pippen on his own=a top 2-3 player at his peak leading a legit championship contender despite it being riddled by injuries and being short on talent relative to its competition

Kobe+Gasol=another great team.

Gasol on his own=another borderline all-star. Was anyone talking about him being a top 5 PF or a top 10-15 player in the league when he was in Memphis? Was anyone comparing him to HOF'ers then? In contrast, Pippen was better regarded without Jordan.



They are terrified of people recognizing how great a player MJ played with because they think it diminishes their hero. I don't understand it, though. MJ still had by far the weakest supporting cast of any GOAT candidate. See http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3010218#post3010218 Kareem>Pippen but while Pippen>McHale Pippen/Grant/Paxson/Cartwright<McHale/Parish/Ainge/Johnson and so on.



I just don't buy your borderline all star comment about PAU... The guy is not a borderline all star.. All stars are popularity contests and that is the reason he usually doesn't make them.. But his stats have always been all star level... Deron is also a all star level player and possibly one of the best in the league.. Still he hasn't made a all star.. Pippen was never in my opinion the second best player in the league... Top 5 yes... But only in 1994...

in 94 hakeem, drob, barkley and malone were all surely better than Pip,, Pip may have had a better year than some but that is like saying that Kobe was not better than so and so in 2005 because kobe had a bad year...

[NBASTATMAN]

While Gasol's post presence and overall offensive reliability and versatility is not be understated, I think Pippen had a bigger impact on the game as a whole.

He had the ball in his hands more often and handled a bigger piece of the defensive game too.


Good post...

[Snoop_Cat]

Holy sh*t. He wins a ring and moves to LA and predictably his overrated-value skyrockets.
Pippen is a consensus top 50 player and the greatest #2 of all time.
Gasol is a consensus soft puss* that couldn't win a single play off game.

You must be out of your f*cking mind if you think Gasol is the best second fiddle of all time considering thats the only spot available in front of Pippen.
Dirk/Old Duncan/Semi-healthy KG > Pau GaSoft

[Roundball_Rock]

Gasol made only one all-star team prior to coming to LA. You are right that popularity influences all-star selections, even the reserve selections, but that helps Gasol since he is now playing in LA. Yes, he was all-star caliber but so are many players. This is why all-star selections are a big deal. You make a select group of dozen players in your conference. There are probably at least 20 all-star caliber players in each conference in a given season but only 12 make the cut to actual all-star status. The fact that Gasol usually misses the cut suggests that he is considered by coaches to be a 10-17th best player in his own conference, or at least was prior to coming to LA. In Memphis he made 1 all-star team in 7 seasons, never received a single MVP vote, never won a playoff game yet he is being compared to a HOFer?


ippen was never in my opinion the second best player in the league... Top 5 yes... But only in 1994...

in 94 hakeem, drob, barkley and malone were all surely better than Pip

Surely better? The point is with Pippen even his detractors (you, OSB, et al.) concede at his peak he was a top 5 player in the NBA. You can also make a case for him being the second or third best player at his peak. Certainly many people held that view. With Gasol there is debate over whether he is even top 15 in the NBA and top 5 at his own position. Gasol, as good as he is, is simply not in the same league as Pippen.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at anyone picking Gasol. Pippen, and it isn't even close. What's really sad is that Gasol's rebounding numbers are identical to most of Pippen's with the Bulls.

[NBASTATMAN]

Gasol made only one all-star team prior to coming to LA. You are right that popularity influences all-star selections, even the reserve selections, but that helps Gasol since he is now playing in LA. Yes, he was all-star caliber but so are many players. This is why all-star selections are a big deal. You make a select group of dozen players in your conference. There are probably at least 20 all-star caliber players in each conference in a given season but only 12 make the cut to actual all-star status. The fact that Gasol usually misses the cut suggests that he is considered by coaches to be a 10-17th best player in his own conference, or at least was prior to coming to LA. In Memphis he made 1 all-star team in 7 seasons, never received a single MVP vote, never won a playoff game yet he is being compared to a HOFer?



Surely better? The point is with Pippen even his detractors (you, OSB, et al.) concede at his peak he was a top 5 player in the NBA. You can also make a case for him being the second or third best player at his peak. Certainly many people held that view. With Gasol there is debate over whether he is even top 15 in the NBA and top 5 at his own position. Gasol, as good as he is, is simply not in the same league as Pippen.


I'm not a detractor.. I call it the way I see it... I think Pippen was a very good player..In 1994 he had one of the best seasons of any player in the NBA... Still he was never the go to guy at the end of games , even when he played his best... Kukoc was the go to guy in 1994... I could understand why MJ took the game winning shots... Just like I would understand if it was kobe taking the winning shot.. But Kukoc ...... I still remember Kukoc hitting like 4 regular season winners that year.. And the playoff one as well... Pippen surely needed that kind of guy in 2000 vs the Lakers...

[IInvented]

No Pau no Ring
No Scottie no ring

[Snoop_Cat]

No Scottie no ringS

Correction

[Duncan21formvp]

Gasol led his team in win shares, so he was the 1st option.

[KenneBell]

Gasol led his team in win shares, so he was the 1st option.
Please explain.

[CantStop]

Gasol led his team in win shares, so he was the 1st option.

lol @ that BS.

Even Gasol would :oldlol: at that.

Easily Scottie. Bulls had a drop share of 2 losses when Michael left. If Kobe left, Lakers would have a drop share of 10+ losses.

[Alpha Wolf]

lol @ that BS.

Even Gasol would :oldlol: at that.

Easily Scottie. Bulls had a drop share of 2 losses when Michael left. If Kobe left, Lakers would have a drop share of 10+ losses.


And MJ the "greatest ever" was replaced by a CBA journeyman (Pete Myers) and they only lost 2 more games then the previous year with him and if it weren't for hue hollins they would have made it to the Finals


If Kobe left the Lakers and replace him with a NBDL player there a below .500 team

[Duncan21formvp]

And MJ the "greatest ever" was replaced by a CBA journeyman (Pete Myers) and they only lost 2 more games then the previous year with him and if it weren't for hue hollins they would have made it to the Finals


If Kobe left the Lakers and replace him with a NBDL player there a below .500 team

False the Bulls won the title you ass, while the Bulls in 1994 lost in round 2.

[Roundball_Rock]

And MJ the "greatest ever" was replaced by a CBA journeyman (Pete Myers) and they only lost 2 more games then the previous year with him and if it weren't for hue hollins they would have made it to the Finals

That is because Scottie Pippen stepped up in MJ's absence. The Bulls were a 59-60 win team with him, a 30 win team without him. Even when they had a soft schedule when he was out they still went only 4-6 (on pace for 33 wins over 82 games). Pippen=the second best player in the NBA in 94' and top 20 all-time. :oldlol: @ anyone thinking Gasol could achieve half of that. Gasol without Kobe was 0-12 in the playoffs; Pippen without Jordan was on his way to the NBA finals in 94' if it weren't for Hue Hollins and was 2 minutes away from winning a 7th championship in 2000.

[Alpha Wolf]

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]False the Bulls won the title

http://www.whynotad.com/_mm/_d/_ext2/58796/big_Hue%20Hollins%20Calls%20Foul%20Against%20Scott ie%20Pippen01.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=Duncan21formvp]False the Bulls won the title

http://www.whynotad.com/_mm/_d/_ext2/58796/big_Hue%20Hollins%20Calls%20Foul%20Against%20Scott ie%20Pippen01.jpg

:cry: Has Hue Hollins ever apologized for that atrocity?


1. Kevin Garnett
2. Kevin McHale
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Chet Walker
5. Pau Gasol
6. Penny Hardaway
7. Yakhouba Diawara
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Charles Oakley
10. Guy Rodgers

:oldlol:

Garnett was 3rd in MVP voting last season. KG was the best player on the 08' Celtics.

Pippen>McHale. McHale struggled without Bird. Without Bird he could not even lead a stacked team which had Parish (still a 19/13 player), Reggie Lewis (19 ppg), and prime Ainge (16 ppg) to a winning record. His shooting percentage fell by 6% without Bird and he did not receive a single MVP vote in 89'. In contrast Pippen thrived and elevated his game without Jordan and kept an otherwise 30 win lottery team in championship contention. Pippen was a better player, even if you limit the comparison to their years as "sidekicks." McHale made only one all-NBA team.

[U got Served]

The proper ranking of all time 2nd fiddles:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Kevin McHale
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Chet Walker
5. Pau Gasol
6. Penny Hardaway
7. Yakhouba Diawara
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Charles Oakley
10. Guy Rodgers

Ouch!!!

[Abraham Lincoln]

The proper ranking of all time 2nd fiddles:

1. Kevin Garnett
2. Kevin McHale
3. Scottie Pippen
4. Chet Walker
5. Pau Gasol
6. Penny Hardaway
7. Yakhouba Diawara
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Charles Oakley
10. Guy RodgersOuch!!!

Alas, tis may be a startling revelation in the eyes of all but the wise man, for as a strict number 2 player of importance, this be the proper list.

[D-Rose]

Alas, tis may be a startling revelation in the eyes of all but the wise man, for as a strict number 2 player of importance, this be the proper list.
Atrocious list, Diawara anwhere past #1 is a travesty.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen was on both the all-NBA first team and the all-defensive first team in 94', 95', 96', and was robbed of an all-NBA first team selection in 97'. Let's compare these credentials to the other guys you mentioned.


Credentials don't mean much, since most of the guys I mentioned were centers/PF's, who were competing for the same spots on the All-NBA teams. Again, it's nowhere near a clear case that Pippen was top 3 in any given season, let alone it being a "consensus."


1994: Only Pippen and Hakeem were on both the all-NBA and all-defensive first teams. David Robinson was on both second teams. Shaq was all-NBA third team. Malone was all-NBA first team, Barkley second team, and Ewing actually did not make any all-NBA team. None of these players--including Shaq--made an all-defensive team. In MVP voting Pippen was 3rd behind Hakeem and Robinson with 39% of the vote. Shaq was 4th (29%), Ewing 5th (26%), Malone 7th (2%), and Barkley 10th (0.005%). Yet he was not a top 3 player this season? :roll:

First off, MVP voting does not determine who the better player is. Second, are you seriously suggesting that Pippen was considered to be better than Shaq and especially DRob in 1994? :oldlol:

Again: in his peak year (1994), Shaq/Hakeem/DRob/Barkley/Ewing/Malone were all either unequivocaly (Hakeem/DRob), pretty clearly (Shaq), or arguably (Barkley/Malone) better than Pippen. So he was in no way a "consensus top 3 player." He was top 5-6 for 4-6 seasons.

[Roundball_Rock]

Credentials don't mean much, since most of the guys I mentioned were centers/PF's, who were competing for the same spots on the All-NBA teams.

:oldlol: those PF's were competing with spots with Pippen since all-NBA and all-defensive spots are given to two forwards, two guards, and one center. There is no requirement to include a PF, SF, C, SG, and PG. Malone and Barkley both made the all-NBA first team in 93', for instance. Of course you already knew this but it was a nice try to mislead people. Of course Pippen being chosen over the PF's you mentioned is relevant.

You have an interesting list: 4 C's and 2 PF's. Gee, ever think that you have a bias in favor of big men? Ever consider that not everyone shares that bias?

Robinson lost 1-3 in the first round with a 55 win team that had HCA, Dennis Rodman and Dale Ellis. Robinson was the most overrated player of the 90's. He always produced great stats but never won anything until Duncan showed up.

Shaq was swept in the first round despite having Penny, former franchise player Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Scott Skiles. How often are top 3 players swept in the first round with teams that good?


Again: in his peak year (1994), Shaq/Hakeem/DRob/Barkley/Ewing/Malone were all either unequivocaly (Hakeem/DRob), pretty clearly (Shaq), or arguably (Barkley/Malone) better than Pippen. So he was in no way a "consensus top 3 player." He was top 5-6 for 4-6 seasons.

Again: that is your big man centric (except MJ :oldlol: ) opinion.

Nice sleight of hand. Earlier you said he was top 5 for a handful of seasons and top 5-7 for a greater period. Now you suggest his peak was being 5th or 6th best.


Pippen was never "consensus top 3". He was top 5 for 2-3 seasons, and top 5-7 for about 5-6 seasons.

I can understand the switch, though. Your list suggests he was 4th or 5th in 94', even according to you and based on your previous statement (unless you will take the absurd position that a player who was top 5-6 for 4-6 seasons never rose higher than 5th. That is possible but improbable given variance, injuries to players.). It would look pretty lame to be quibbling over whether a player was 3rd instead of 4th so the switch was a smart move. :oldlol:

Pippen was not "arguably" better than Barkley and Malone in 94'. He was "pretty clearly" better.

When it comes to ranking players at the top a lot of it comes down to what a particular person's criteria is. Your list is no mere coincidence. You have a bias in favor of big men, for whatever reason. You also seem to have little concern for defense given your inclusion of someone like Barkley, who offensively was on par with Pippen in 94' yet was "arguably" better overall despite being far inferior on defense. Others may favor all-around play more. These people would tend to rank Pippen higher. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the NBA at this time, not according to an ISH poster but according to NBA coaches. Similarly, someone who looks at winning would also place Pippen higher since his teams were more successful than those of all the players you mentioned in 94' save Hakeem and Ewing, and we know why the 94' Knicks beat the 94' Bulls...The amazing thing is Pippen did this with arguably the weakest supporting cast of any of the players you mentioned. He certainly had a weaker team than Robinson, Shaq, Malone (Stockton!!!), Barkley (KJ, Majerle, and so on), and Ewing.

I am curious: why does it matter so much to you that Pippen is ranked 4th instead of 3rd or even 5th instead of 3rd? I know the answer but I am wondering whether you will admit it. :D

[Jacks3]

lol @ the MJ stans overrating Gasol:oldlol: . Comparing friggin Gasol to a top 20 player All-Time.:oldlol:

[Clifton]

Pippen played in an earlier era, therefore Pippen is better and anyone who suggests otherwise or that it may be a interesting comparison is an idiot whom I sit here and laugh at, with Limbaughian scorn.

[Roundball_Rock]

lol @ the MJ stans overrating Gasol:oldlol: . Comparing friggin Gasol to a top 20 player All-Time.:oldlol:

:oldlol: What is funnier is that these same people always diminish Pippen. Pippen was simply in a different league than Gasol. Pippen was a top 2-5 player at his peak while Gasol is at best top 15 right now and arguably is not even that. Gasol is 28. He is in his prime so he is basically as good as he ever will be.

[NBASTATMAN]

:oldlol: those PF's were competing with spots with Pippen since all-NBA and all-defensive spots are given to two forwards, two guards, and one center. There is no requirement to include a PF, SF, C, SG, and PG. Malone and Barkley both made the all-NBA first team in 93', for instance. Of course you already knew this but it was a nice try to mislead people. Of course Pippen being chosen over the PF's you mentioned is relevant.

You have an interesting list: 4 C's and 2 PF's. Gee, ever think that you have a bias in favor of big men? Ever consider that not everyone shares that bias?

Robinson lost 1-3 in the first round with a 55 win team that had HCA, Dennis Rodman and Dale Ellis. Robinson was the most overrated player of the 90's. He always produced great stats but never won anything until Duncan showed up.

Shaq was swept in the first round despite having Penny, former franchise player Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott, and Scott Skiles. How often are top 3 players swept in the first round with teams that good?



Again: that is your big man centric (except MJ :oldlol: ) opinion.

Nice sleight of hand. Earlier you said he was top 5 for a handful of seasons and top 5-7 for a greater period. Now you suggest his peak was being 5th or 6th best.



I can understand the switch, though. Your list suggests he was 4th or 5th in 94', even according to you and based on your previous statement (unless you will take the absurd position that a player who was top 5-6 for 4-6 seasons never rose higher than 5th. That is possible but improbable given variance, injuries to players.). It would look pretty lame to be quibbling over whether a player was 3rd instead of 4th so the switch was a smart move. :oldlol:

Pippen was not "arguably" better than Barkley and Malone in 94'. He was "pretty clearly" better.

When it comes to ranking players at the top a lot of it comes down to what a particular person's criteria is. Your list is no mere coincidence. You have a bias in favor of big men, for whatever reason. You also seem to have little concern for defense given your inclusion of someone like Barkley, who offensively was on par with Pippen in 94' yet was "arguably" better overall despite being far inferior on defense. Others may favor all-around play more. These people would tend to rank Pippen higher. Pippen was considered the best all-around player in the NBA at this time, not according to an ISH poster but according to NBA coaches. Similarly, someone who looks at winning would also place Pippen higher since his teams were more successful than those of all the players you mentioned in 94' save Hakeem and Ewing, and we know why the 94' Knicks beat the 94' Bulls...The amazing thing is Pippen did this with arguably the weakest supporting cast of any of the players you mentioned. He certainly had a weaker team than Robinson, Shaq, Malone (Stockton!!!), Barkley (KJ, Majerle, and so on), and Ewing.

I am curious: why does it matter so much to you that Pippen is ranked 4th instead of 3rd or even 5th instead of 3rd? I know the answer but I am wondering whether you will admit it. :D



I guess Kobe was only a top 15 player in 2005... :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

That is because Scottie Pippen stepped up in MJ's absence. The Bulls were a 59-60 win team with him, a 30 win team without him. Even when they had a soft schedule when he was out they still went only 4-6 (on pace for 33 wins over 82 games). Pippen=the second best player in the NBA in 94' and top 20 all-time. :oldlol: @ anyone thinking Gasol could achieve half of that. Gasol without Kobe was 0-12 in the playoffs; Pippen without Jordan was on his way to the NBA finals in 94' if it weren't for Hue Hollins and was 2 minutes away from winning a 7th championship in 2000.



I guess we can use this same logic for Kobe playing without Odom.. In 2005 the Lakers were something like 6-9 without Kobe but 2-16 without Odom... Odom is the man....:applause:


Pippen had one of the best years in 1994 but he clearly wasn't the second best player... You are using MVP voting to determine how great Pippen was...:lol Kobe must have only been the best player 1 year in his career.. Same goes for Shaq... This is a joke... Clearly Kobe was only a top 15 player in 2005... :lol


Pippen is better than Gasol .. And it is close between Pippen and Mchale..

[Roundball_Rock]

I guess we can use this same logic for Kobe playing without Odom.. In 2005 the Lakers were something like 6-9 without Kobe but 2-16 without Odom... Odom is the man....:applause:

That is an interesting fact. I have not seen Kobe fans explain that. The disparity between 6-9 and 2-16 is too great to be dismissed as mere variance.


Pippen had one of the best years in 1994 but he clearly wasn't the second best player...

He was in the eyes of many and he was at least top 3 in the eyes of many more. Even his biggest detractors here (AKA MJ fans) concede that he was top 5 in 94'.

No, I used MVP voting as just one of many factors in comparing how Pippen was regarded at the time with other players. We can all agree that being on the all-NBA first team means you were considered a top 5-7 player at least. Well, Pippen achieved that and the all-defensive first team. Which means...

[NBASTATMAN]

lol @ that BS.

Even Gasol would :oldlol: at that.

Easily Scottie. Bulls had a drop share of 2 losses when Michael left. If Kobe left, Lakers would have a drop share of 10+ losses.

Didn' t that same bulls team win 67 the year before that year.. And 61 the year before that.. Obviously you are using the worse year of the BUlls three peat to compare...

Yea pippen would have gotten his team to the finals.. If that team got to the finals it would not have been PIPPEN taking the big shots.... That is money in the bank... It would have been KUKOC taking and making the big shots... Pippen repeatedly choked when he had the opps to make it to the big dance without MJ.. Loaded with talent his teams never made it out of the first round excluding 2000...

[CantStop]

MJ stans always have to put Pippen down. It's disturbing the lenghts they go to protect M.J.

[Roundball_Rock]

Didn' t that same bulls team win 67 the year before that year.. And 61 the year before that.. Obviously you are using the worse year of the BUlls three peat to compare...

Yea pippen would have gotten his team to the finals.. If that team got to the finals it would not have been PIPPEN taking the big shots.... That is money in the bank... It would have been KUKOC taking and making the big shots... Pippen repeatedly choked when he had the opps to make it to the big dance without MJ.. Loaded with talent his teams never made it out of the first round excluding 2000...

:wtf: Pippen lead the 94' Bulls in scoring, rebounding, assists, and steals, and was second in blocks. He was a freaking SF! What more could the man do???!!!

BS. Pippen made it to the ECSF in 94' and would have went all the way if it were not for Hue Hollins and in 2000 he came within 2 minutes of a ring.

Loaded with talent? His Portland teams were sub .500 teams without Pippen.

How did your hero do without Pippen? Where was MJ without Pippen? 168-169...


MJ stans always have to put Pippen down. It's disturbing the lenghts they go to protect M.J.

Yeah, one guy is so obsessed with diminishing Pippen that he argues whether peak Pippen was the 3rd best player in the NBA or 4th/5th best, whether he could average 10.0 assists outside the triangle or 8.5, whether he could score 28 ppg in 1970 or 25-26 ppg.

They can't handle the fact that MJ was 168-169 without Pippen. They need to chill out. MJ played with a bunch of scrubs compared to the teams Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird--and even Shaq had.

[Alpha Wolf]

:wtf: Pippen lead the 94' Bulls in scoring, rebounding, assists, and steals, and was second in blocks. He was a freaking SF! What more could the man do???!!!

BS. Pippen made it to the ECSF in 94' and would have went all the way if it were not for Hue Hollins and in 2000 he came within 2 minutes of a ring.

Loaded with talent? His Portland teams were sub .500 teams without Pippen.

How did your hero do without Pippen? Where was MJ without Pippen? 168-169...



Yeah, one guy is so obsessed with diminishing Pippen that he argues whether peak Pippen was the 3rd best player in the NBA or 4th/5th best, whether he could average 10.0 assists outside the triangle or 8.5, whether he could score 28 ppg in 1970 or 25-26 ppg.

They can't handle the fact that MJ was 168-169 without Pippen. They need to chill out. MJ played with a bunch of scrubs compared to the teams Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird--and even Shaq had.



how did you find out that MJ was 168-169 without Pippen?

[NBASTATMAN]

That is an interesting fact. I have not seen Kobe fans explain that. The disparity between 6-9 and 2-16 is too great to be dismissed as mere variance.



He was in the eyes of many and he was at least top 3 in the eyes of many more. Even his biggest detractors here (AKA MJ fans) concede that he was top 5 in 94'.

No, I used MVP voting as just one of many factors in comparing how Pippen was regarded at the time with other players. We can all agree that being on the all-NBA first team means you were considered a top 5-7 player at least. Well, Pippen achieved that and the all-defensive first team. Which means...

Also explain to the me the fact that the lakers during their three peat had a better record without Kobe than with him.. I am talking about the games that Kobe missed.... Close to 30 gameS I believe...

[Roundball_Rock]

how did you find out that MJ was 168-169 without Pippen?

BBall reference breaks down team records by starting lineups. I was in a thread with MJ stans diminishing Pip, as usual, so I decided to go nuclear and bust out their records without each other. In 1986 MJ started only 7 games, in 2004 Pippen only 6 so we can't glean anything for them from those seasons. I threw out those seasons and MJ was 168-169 without Pippen.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%) 1985
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%) 1987
26-12 (68%) 1998
27-26 (51%) 2002
37-45 (45%) 2003

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ

DNQ=did not qualify for the playoffs

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Portland without Scottie

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

By 2002 he was a 36 year old well past his prime 11 ppg scorer. Was it his 11 ppg that Portland missed? No, it was his intangibles and leadership. Pip was one of the rare players, like Magic, Bird, and Nash, who made his teammates better.

Rasheed Wallace is considered to have been the best player on the early 2000's Portland teams. In 2003 he missed eight games. His team went 6-2 without him...



Also explain to the me the fact that the lakers during their three peat had a better record without Kobe than with him.. I am talking about the games that Kobe missed.... Close to 30 gameS I believe...

Good question. Ask a Kobe stan to explain that.

[Alpha Wolf]

BBall reference breaks down team records by starting lineups. I was in a thread with MJ stans diminishing Pip, as usual, so I decided to go nuclear and bust out their records without each other. In 1986 MJ started only 7 games, in 2004 Pippen only 6 so we can't glean anything for them from those seasons. I threw out those seasons and MJ was 168-169 without Pippen.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%) 1985
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%) 1987
26-12 (68%) 1998
27-26 (51%) 2002
37-45 (45%) 2003

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ

DNQ=did not qualify for the playoffs

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Portland without Scottie

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

By 2002 he was a 36 year old well past his prime 11 ppg scorer. Was it his 11 ppg that Portland missed? No, it was his intangibles and leadership. Pip was one of the rare players, like Magic, Bird, and Nash, who made his teammates better.

Rasheed Wallace is considered to have been the best player on the early 2000's Portland teams. In 2003 he missed eight games. His team went 6-2 without him...




Good question. Ask a Kobe stan to explain that.

:bowdown:



:applause: :applause:


you'd have to be a complete idiot to ignore the impact that Pippen had on Jordan's career

[Roundball_Rock]

Let me also remind you that Washington team won 19 games the year Mj played and then went to 37 games the next year.. With Mj playing that team went 30-30... I bet that is not in your 168-169... The team without him went 7-12

It is in there.

27-26 (51%) 2002

They were a joke without MJ.

Look, I just posted the facts. If MJ stans are going to diminish Pippen they should have no qualms about discussing MJ's record with and without Pippen. :oldlol: Pippen was the team's second best player from his second season on.

[juju151111]

:oldlol: What is funnier is that these same people always diminish Pippen. Pippen was simply in a different league than Gasol. Pippen was a top 2-5 player at his peak while Gasol is at best top 15 right now and arguably is not even that. Gasol is 28. He is in his prime so he is basically as good as he ever will be.
Name the 15 people better then Gasol last season.

[D-Rose]

Also explain to the me the fact that the lakers during their three peat had a better record without Kobe than with him.. I am talking about the games that Kobe missed.... Close to 30 gameS I believe...
Probably because Shaq was so dominant back then, no Kobe, more shots for Shaq?

Also 30 games is a much smaller sample size compared to all the games that Kobe did actually play...The winning % would go down after more games.

[Roundball_Rock]

Name the 15 people better then Gasol last season.

In no order:

Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Yao
Deron

Howard
Duncan
Dirk
Paul
Amare

Bosh
Boozer?
Healthy KG

He is top 15 imo but definitely not top 10.

[NBASTATMAN]

BBall reference breaks down team records by starting lineups. I was in a thread with MJ stans diminishing Pip, as usual, so I decided to go nuclear and bust out their records without each other. In 1986 MJ started only 7 games, in 2004 Pippen only 6 so we can't glean anything for them from those seasons. I threw out those seasons and MJ was 168-169 without Pippen.

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%) 1985
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%) 1987
26-12 (68%) 1998
27-26 (51%) 2002
37-45 (45%) 2003

Total: 198-221
Total minus 1986*: 168-169 (50%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ

DNQ=did not qualify for the playoffs

Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Portland without Scottie

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
[B]Impact: -8[/B
]2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

By 2002 he was a 36 year old well past his prime 11 ppg scorer. Was it his 11 ppg that Portland missed? No, it was his intangibles and leadership. Pip was one of the rare players, like Magic, Bird, and Nash, who made his teammates better.

Rasheed Wallace is considered to have been the best player on the early 2000's Portland teams. In 2003 he missed eight games. His team went 6-2 without him...




Good question. Ask a Kobe stan to explain that.


168-169 is the record because you are counting Pippen on the bench.. Pippen was a bench player and the Bulls went 52-30 in 88...

Also Sabonis missed alot of time in 2002 as well.. Not just pippen...

Pippen also played with great talent after he played with MJ... Sure the guy was a winner.. He knew how to play the game.. I don't think anyone is arguing that... Pippen without a doubt was needed to win by MJ... But Pippen had his chances with great players to win and only got out of the first round once.........

[NBASTATMAN]

In no order:

Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Yao
Deron

Howard
Duncan
Dirk
Paul
Amare

Bosh
Boozer?
Healthy KG

He is top 15 imo but definitely not top 10.


Bosh isn't as good, neither is boozer... Amare is injured and Yao does not deserve to be on the list... ... Trade him to the lakers for Pau and the lakers lose again this year..............The rest I have no problem with...

[juju151111]

In no order:

Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Yao
Deron

Howard
Duncan
Dirk
Paul
Amare

Bosh
Boozer?
Healthy KG

He is top 15 imo but definitely not top 10.
LOL
1. Take KG off he was injured thats BS.
2. Duncan didn't play better then Gasol last season stop your BS. Show me the stats We not talking zbout 03 Duncan here just 09.
3. LOL Bosh and Gasol have similar stats how is Bosh better last season?
4. Boozer played Gasol in the playoffs and neither could stop each other.

[NBASTATMAN]

Probably because Shaq was so dominant back then, no Kobe, more shots for Shaq?

Also 30 games is a much smaller sample size compared to all the games that Kobe did actually play...The winning % would go down after more games.


Kobe also struggled without A quality big for three seasons... He had a losing record those three years.. Still he played with Lamar and Caron in one year.. And had the benefit of having the greatest bball coach ever to lead him the other years... This was also Kobe's prime.... Mj is being ****ted on by haterz with records he accumulated when he was a youngster with Oakley being his second best scorer and also as a a old man... :lol

[NBASTATMAN]

LOL
1. Take KG off he was injured thats BS.
2. Duncan didn't play better then Gasol last season stop your BS. Show me the stats We not talking zbout 03 Duncan here just 09.
3. LOL Bosh and Gasol have similar stats how is Bosh better last season?
4. Boozer played Gasol in the playoffs and neither could stop each other.


Thing about Boozer is he plays with Deron who repeatedly blew by any defender in front of him and passed to his bigs.. Look at Millsap.. He was avg 16 and 10 with Boozer out.. Trust me he will not put up those numbers without a quality pg...

[Alpha Wolf]

Jordan never even had a winning record apart from Pippen



38, 30 and 40 wins... that's it... aww, that's too bad... 40 wins is SO CLOSE to a .500 season, I'd almost want to give Michael credit for a winning season that year... but I can't... a loser is a loser. I can't change the laws of mathematics... if you lose more games than you win, you're a LOSER! And that's what Michael was without Scottie as a teammate....

[NBASTATMAN]

In no order:

Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Yao
Deron

Howard
Duncan
Dirk
Paul
Amare

Bosh
Boozer?
Healthy KG

He is top 15 imo but definitely not top 10.


Gasol was easily top 10 last year... , boozer, kg, and Yao were either hurt or didn't play the entire year including playoffs... How can they even be on the list?... Bosh played with very good talent and his team sucked... Not....

[juju151111]

Thing about Boozer is he plays with Deron who repeatedly blew by any defender in front of him and passed to his bigs.. Look at Millsap.. He was avg 16 and 10 with Boozer out.. Trust me he will not put up those numbers without a quality pg...
Agreed and pau was great last season.

[NBASTATMAN]

It is in there.

27-26 (51%) 2002

They were a joke without MJ.

Look, I just posted the facts. If MJ stans are going to diminish Pippen they should have no qualms about discussing MJ's record with and without Pippen. :oldlol: Pippen was the team's second best player from his second season on.


I noticed that after.. Still how can 52-30 record with pippen riding the bench not be included.. That is a hater move...

[NBASTATMAN]

Jordan never even had a winning record apart from Pippen



38, 30 and 40 wins... that's it... aww, that's too bad... 40 wins is SO CLOSE to a .500 season, I'd almost want to give Michael credit for a winning season that year... but I can't... a loser is a loser. I can't change the laws of mathematics... if you lose more games than you win, you're a LOSER! And that's what Michael was without Scottie as a teammate....



MJ won 27-26 in 2002 for the Wizards.. At least that is what ROUNDBALL just wrote.. Mj also went 52-30 with Pippen riding the bench...

[Pharcyde]

Gasol was easily top 10 last year... , boozer, kg, and Yao were either hurt or didn't play the entire year including playoffs... How can they even be on the list?... Bosh played with very good talent and his team sucked... Not....


Bosh was better than Gasol last year IMO

[juju151111]

Jordan never even had a winning record apart from Pippen



38, 30 and 40 wins... that's it... aww, that's too bad... 40 wins is SO CLOSE to a .500 season, I'd almost want to give Michael credit for a winning season that year... but I can't... a loser is a loser. I can't change the laws of mathematics... if you lose more games than you win, you're a LOSER! And that's what Michael was without Scottie as a teammate....
OK ALPHA nobody really comments on your posts other then cantstop. I will play your gm through. I want to ask you something through. How important was Jordan famar and his 6 ppg to the 09 Lakers?

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ won 27-26 in 2002 for the Wizards.. At least that is what ROUNDBALL just wrote.. Mj also went 52-30 with Pippen riding the bench...

50-32. Let's add that.

218-201 (52%) in seasons where Pip was on the bench or not playing. Is that really that much better than 168-169? Plus, Pip did not come alone. Horace Grant was also drafted in 87'.

I was just posting the facts. MJ stans love to point out that Scottie never won a ring with Michael but Scottie did better without Michael than vice versa. These are facts that cannot be changed.

[sirkeelma]

Pau Gasol vs. Scottie Pippen

Who is better and more dominant out of these two second fiddles?

Which one would lead a team to more wins as the "main man" assuming both had equally talented rosters?

You are comparing a Kitten and a Leopard. Not an interesting topic.

[NBASTATMAN]

Bosh was better than Gasol last year IMO



How his team sucked.? He played alongside of Marion and oneal for about half a season each.. He had barnaigni, anthony parker, jose calderon, and in the east won 33 games I believe.....

[juju151111]

50-32. Let's add that.

218-201 (52%) in seasons where Pip was on the bench or not playing. Is that really that much better than 168-169? Plus, Pip did not come alone. Horace Grant was also drafted in 87'.

I was just posting the facts. MJ stans love to point out that Scottie never won a ring with Michael but Scottie did better without Michael than vice versa. These are facts that cannot be changed.
Yes 218-201 is much better actually. Who cares if Grant came?? This is about Pippen and i also find it funny that Pippen fans always want to talk about 93, but not 1992. MJ(MJ had wrist problems/legs and Pip was tired from the olympics) led that team to 67 win yet they avoid talkng about it. Phil Jackson also said MJ/Pip playing in their first olympics hurt their team when asked about the dropoff.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes 218-201 is much better actually. Who cares if Grant came?? This is about Pippen and i also find it funny that Pippen fans always want to talk about 93, but not 1992. MJ(MJ had wrist problems/legs and Pip was tired from the olympics) led that team to 67 win yet they avoid talkng about it. Phil Jackson also said MJ/Pip playing in their first olympics hurt their team when asked about the dropoff.

Fair enough but how about 91'? The same team won 61 in 91'. Plus, in 94' they would have won 60 games at minimum if Pippen and Grant were healthy for the entire season.

Pippen was more than just tired. He played with two herniated disks for much of the season.

Who cares about Grant? You had two productive rookies join the team who became the #2 and #3 players. Peak Grant=all-star. Peak Pippen=2-4 player in the NBA.

[NBASTATMAN]

50-32. Let's add that.

218-201 (52%) in seasons where Pip was on the bench or not playing. Is that really that much better than 168-169? Plus, Pip did not come alone. Horace Grant was also drafted in 87'.

I was just posting the facts. MJ stans love to point out that Scottie never won a ring with Michael but Scottie did better without Michael than vice versa. These are facts that cannot be changed.

Sure but when Mj played without Pippen he didn't play alongside , hakeem,barkley, wallace, sabonis, steve smith, detlef.... In 1998 mj led the bulls to a 26-12 record without Pippen.. This was a 34 year old mj.. That would have been a similar record to what pippen did without mj in 1994.. Except the bulls added kukoc, wenington , luc, pete myers, and kerr.. The bulls had the tallest and deepest front court in the league that year... Also MJ was way past his prime....

[Roundball_Rock]

Sure but when Mj played without Pippen he didn't play alongside , hakeem,barkley, wallace, sabonis, steve smith, detlef.... In 1998 mj led the bulls to a 26-12 record without Pippen.. This was a 34 year old mj.. That would have been a similar record to what pippen did without mj in 1994.. Except the bulls added kukoc, wenington , luc, pete myers, and kerr.. The bulls had the tallest and deepest front court in the league that year... Also MJ was way past his prime....

I posted Portland's records without Pip. They were below .500 without Pip' in 02' and 03'! This was old man 11 ppg Pip because of his ability to elevate his teammates and leadership. Prime Pip was worth even more!

MJ in 98'=the best player in the NBA. I love how MJ stans argue that Pip was overrated and then imply that 94' Pip=98' MJ.

Yeah, the 98' Bulls were 26-12 without Pip. That is on par with the Bulls with Pip in 94' and without MJ. Yet Pip is a scrub/

Deepest front court in the league? Luc? Bench Kukoc? Wennington? Come on bro. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Fair enough but how about 91'? The same team won 61 in 91'. Plus, in 94' they would have won 60 games at minimum if Pippen and Grant were healthy for the entire season.

Pippen was more than just tired. He played with two herniated disks for much of the season.

Who cares about Grant? You had two productive rookies join the team who became the #2 and #3 players. Peak Grant=all-star. Peak Pippen=2-4 player in the NBA.
?? I said this is about Pip not Grant. We were talking about Pip affect on the team. Exactly Pip/MJ was injured during the season. I don't see how you said 1996 bulls Minus MJ would beat Shaq/Penny. What fantasy world is this??

[NBASTATMAN]

I posted Portland's records without Pip. They were below .500 without Pip' in 02' and 03'! This was old man 11 ppg Pip because of his ability to elevate his teammates and leadership. Prime Pip was worth even more!

MJ in 98'=the best player in the NBA. I love how MJ stans argue that Pip was overrated and then imply that 94' Pip=98' MJ.

Yeah, the 98' Bulls were 26-12 without Pip. That is on par with the Bulls with Pip in 94' and without MJ. Yet Pip is a scrub/

Deepest front court in the league? Luc? Bench Kukoc? Wennington? Come on bro. :oldlol:



No one has ever written that Pippen is a scrub.. AND in 01 Pippen's team did better without him.. In 02 [/B].. I don't know and I am not looking up if they missed games at the same time... But that may be a factor... Mj also made the Wizards go from 18 wins to around 37... Mj played in 60 games that year.. I think the team went 30-30 with him..

[Roundball_Rock]

Why are we always fighting? We Pip and MJ fans should be on the same side. :(

http://solesirius.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/05_1997_bulls_jordan_pippen.jpg\

I wish we could somehow find a way to make peace and fight against the "real enemies" of MJ/Pip. MJ=the freaking GOAT! If you read my posts you will see I argue this. Pip=top 20-25 all-time!

[catch24]

I wish we could somehow find a way to make peace and fight against the "real enemies" of MJ/Pip.

I see what you did there LOL

[juju151111]

I posted Portland's records without Pip. They were below .500 without Pip' in 02' and 03'! This was old man 11 ppg Pip because of his ability to elevate his teammates and leadership. Prime Pip was worth even more!

MJ in 98'=the best player in the NBA. I love how MJ stans argue that Pip was overrated and then imply that 94' Pip=98' MJ.

Yeah, the 98' Bulls were 26-12 without Pip. That is on par with the Bulls with Pip in 94' and without MJ. Yet Pip is a scrub/

Deepest front court in the league? Luc? Bench Kukoc? Wennington? Come on bro. :oldlol:
Once again in no point from 87-98 is Pippen better then MJ.

[NBASTATMAN]

Why are we always fighting? We Pip and MJ fans should be on the same side. :(


True.. I have no problems with Pippen getting his due.. The guy was a key factor to all the titles Mj got.. But some people want to put Pippen on a higher level to lower MJ... Usually the haterz... Pippen was great and I don't think anyone on this board has written that Gasol is as good as pippen.. Though he may end up with better stats.... Gasol may also wind up as a top player in the league now that duncan,kg, yao, amare and others are going down hill.... Still Pippen was a superb sidekick... And a good front man as well... My only problem with Pip as a player was his inability to take over when needed.. I guess he wasn't that type of player... He was The best sidekick ...


Hey with the team Gasol has around him he may win another 3 titles.. Than this will be a debate.. Because Gasol' stats will probably be as good as PIPS..

[juju151111]

Why are we always fighting? We Pip and MJ fans should be on the same side. :(

http://solesirius.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/05_1997_bulls_jordan_pippen.jpg\

I wish we could somehow find a way to make peace and fight against the "real enemies" of MJ/Pip. MJ=the freaking GOAT! If you read my posts you will see I argue this. Pip=top 20-25 all-time!
yea thats kinda hard when you think Fatal is actually a MJ fan. I want to agree, but it probably never happen. I defend Pip in threads that doesn't have to do with MJ, but 90% of the time people make threads to use Pip to bash MJ. Which will lead to a MJ fan saying something and then you come.

[Roundball_Rock]

I see what you did there LOL

The real enemies of MJ/Pip=the 60's/80's first crowd.

I agree with 90% of what you said NBAStatman and juju. However, in 94' Pip led the team in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, and was second in blocks. What more could the man do to "step up"?????

Yeah it is sad. I like MJ. Just look at my posts in MJ threads not relating to Pip but it seems most MJ fans are neutral if not hostile to Pip?!

[juju151111]

The real enemies of MJ/Pip=the 60's/80's first crowd.

I agree with 90% of what you said NBAStatman and juju. However, in 94' Pip led the team in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, and was second in blocks. What more could the man do to "step up"?????

Yeah it is sad. I like MJ. Just look at my posts in MJ threads not relating to Pip but it seems most MJ fans are neutral if not hostile to Pip?!
I love Pip and hope more people post his games on youtube. The only person who posts his games are Scottie33Pippen. LOL The 60s and 80s crowd don't got noting on the most successful dynamic Duo.

[Roundball_Rock]

I love Pip and hope more people post his games on youtube. The only person who posts his games are Scottie33Pippen. LOL The 60s and 80s crowd don't got noting on the most successful dynamic Duo.

Scottie33Pippen. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

There are some rare gems like this. Bulls vs. Knicks, 1994-95 Christmast Day OT thriller! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHoYlBmA7g&feature=related

[chitownsfinest]

Scottie33Pippen. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

There are some rare gems like this. Bulls vs. Knicks, 1994-95 Christmast Day OT thriller! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHoYlBmA7g&feature=related
That's the game where Scottie Pippen blocks the potential game winner from Hubert Davis right?

Thanks for the link. I love watching full games of Pippen from the 93-94 season and the portion of the 94-95 season with Mj out. They are really rare to find though.

[DCpup]

I actually think Gasol should have made all-nba 1st team this year. He's pretty underrated.

[phoenix18]

Please. Pippen wasnt a second fiddle.

[lbj23clutch]

LOOL easily Pipp>Gasol.

[KenneBell]

I actually think Gasol should have made all-nba 1st team this year. He's pretty underrated.
Over Dirk or Howard? GTFO.

[nnn123]

Scottie33Pippen. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

There are some rare gems like this. Bulls vs. Knicks, 1994-95 Christmast Day OT thriller! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHoYlBmA7g&feature=related


you'll like this one too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Q-Zxii3Fk

unfortunately im addicted to some of these youtube vids and I know all the good Bulls/Jordan posters

[chitownsfinest]

you'll like this one too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Q-Zxii3Fk

unfortunately im addicted to some of these youtube vids and I know all the good Bulls/Jordan posters
Repped. I have been looking for that Pippen 16-17 game for a long time. Thx

[godofgods]

LOL. Pippen is the most overrated SF of all time.
However, with that said, Gasol has been the 2nd most overrated PF in the league after Amare, ever since he joined the Fakers.

[DCpup]

Over Dirk or Howard? GTFO.

Totally forgot about Dirk. But yeah, no lower than 2nd team. He should especially have gotten it over Pierce.

[juju151111]

Scottie33Pippen. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

There are some rare gems like this. Bulls vs. Knicks, 1994-95 Christmast Day OT thriller! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sHoYlBmA7g&feature=related
:bowdown: :bowdown:

[97 bulls]

LOL. Pippen is the most overrated SF of all time.
However, with that said, Gasol has been the 2nd most overrated PF in the league after Amare, ever since he joined the Fakers.
there is nothing pippen has done to be considered overrated. hes in my top 25 cuz hes the ultimate team player and the best defensive peremter player ever. there have been many posts that shows that pip couldve put up close to bird type numbers. you dont know what your talking about. and pip is better than gasol.

[Dengness9]

Here are some more recent predictions made by Dungness9:

"Carlos Boozer will be traded to Chicago and I guarantee it!!!"

"Dwyane Wade is signing with the Bulls in 2010!!!"

How can you take this idiot seriously? What a pathetic kid!:roll: :roll: :roll:



You literally haven't posted in this thread after I didn't respond to you...


It shows how utterly pathetic your life is that you click on my name and look at where I've posted just to show up there cuz your obsessed w/ me like some homosexual ******.

You live to follow me around nba message boards on the internet. Your life is worthless and nobody even knows you exist in reality. You suck at life BULLS.

[hall of fame]

I'm such a loser who can't hop off the *******s of my favorites players Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich! I have a homosexual type of fascination with the poster hall of fame because I opened up his thread and replied in it. Never mind that hall of fame never responded to me once unless I addressed him first. Man it sucks to be a loser like me making predictions like Carlos Boozer ending up in Chicago and Dwyane Wade signing with the Bulls in 2010! :cry: :cry: I'm a failure at life!! :cry: :cry: :cry: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:
Agreed! :oldlol: :roll:

[hall of fame]

:bowdown: :bowdown:
Awesome stuff.:applause:

[Dengness9]

Agreed! :oldlol: :roll:


And for the 1000th time in your life your creating your own post's with my name on it to try and get closer to me.


Its like the movie the fan, your De Niro and I'm Wesley. Your obsessed w/ me, and I am clearly your idol.

You just want me to talk to you, so you'll post anything you can. It's definitely pass the creepy point. You literally responded to my post w/in 30 minutes of me putting it up.

Proof that you scour the ISH message boards all day waiting for Dengness9 to pop up anywhere.

Straighten your life out.

No not like that... always thinking like a ****** huh?

[hall of fame]

You are the one in my thread. The poster who created this thread? hall of fame, which is me.

Like most people, I don't care about you. I think you are incredibly stupid and annoying. If you never posted in this thread, I wouldn't have even known that you existed.

Now go back to fantasizing about your hero Luol Dung sucker!!! :roll: :roll: :roll:

[hall of fame]

If you want a good laugh, check out the Chicago Bulls forum and some of the posts this guy makes.

Hilarious stuff right here from this kid!!!:roll: :roll:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138147


“WE’RE GETTING TWO ALL STARS IN 2010 BULLS FANS!!@@@@ I KNOW CUS I GOT CONNECTIONS!!” :roll: :roll: :roll: