Hakeem Olajuwon is beginning to become quite overrated here.

[Manute for Ever!]

I have seen some pretty ridiculous comments about the legacy of Hakeem on ISH lately, especially the GOAT centre thread. Does anyone else think he is rapidly becoming overrated on ISH?

[Big#50]

I have seen some pretty ridiculous comments about the legacy of Hakeem on ISH lately, especially the GOAT centre thread. Does anyone else think he is rapidly becoming overrated on ISH?
Extremely.

[west]

Yes.

[SAKOTXA]

No. He is the most talented big men of all time. And Is top 3 center of all time IMO

[Manute for Ever!]

Good, so I'm not completely crazy.

[Cosmonaut]

most of the people on this board are probably not even old enough to even make comments about Hakeem. If all you have seen of Hakeem is youtube videos then you got no right to comment on Hakeem.

I hate ranking players by a number or whatever. I much rather a Tier system, and Hakeem is in that top tier of great centres of all time.

[Manute for Ever!]

I hate ranking players by a number or whatever. I much rather a Tier system, and Hakeem is in that top tier of great centres of all time.

Definitely agree with that :cheers:

[godofgods]

You are confusing Hakeem with Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, Hakeem is not overrated here. Bill Russell defintley is and Wilt probably is as well(due to his early stats).

[snipes12]

no .. but shaq>hakeem

[Maniak]

Wilt>Kareem>Russel>Hakeem>Shaq.

[snipes12]

kareem>wilt>russel>shaq>hakeem
in career achievement wise

[East River Livn']

When people started putting Hakeem in the same category as Wilt and Kareem, he became overrated. He is clearly on an entire tier below them.

[Lebron23]

He's a top 10 player of all time.

The Most Skilled Center in NBA History.

[lakers_forever]

When people started putting Hakeem in the same category as Wilt and Kareem, he became overrated. He is clearly on an entire tier below them.

Exactly. Revisionism. Hakeem was never considered that great (GOAT level) when he was playing. This internet thing is mostly by people who never saw him play.


Of the top 5 centers ever, Olajuwon is the only who did not win an MVP before he was 30.

Goat center? No way. He did not dominate his own era like Shaq, Wilt or Kareem.



Wilt>Kareem>Russel>Hakeem>Shaq.


Wilt>Kareem>Russell>Shaq>Olajuwon

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wilt>Kareem>Russell>Shaq>Olajuwon

Man Russell is overrated. He was an average offensive player. His best scoring season adjusts to less than 14 ppg with 40 mpg in the current NBA. Do Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo get credit for dominating the defensive end?

There's no way Russell was better than Shaq or Olajuwon. And there's no way Wilt ranks above Kareem either.

[Maniak]

Man Russell is overrated. He was an average offensive player. His best scoring season adjusts to less than 14 ppg with 40 mpg in the current NBA. Do Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo get credit for dominating the defensive end?

There's no way Russell was better than Shaq or Olajuwon. And there's no way Wilt ranks above Kareem either.
This arguement has the same sh!t every time.

11 rings, then some ******* says "LOL WELL HORRY>MJ THEN LOL", then they argue with 10 pages of useless garbage, doing nothing but upping post count and rep.

Its the insidehoops rat race of misery.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This arguement has the same sh!t every time.

11 rings, then some ******* says "LOL WELL HORRY>MJ THEN LOL", then they argue with 10 pages of useless garbage, doing nothing but upping post count and rep.

Its the insidehoops rat race of misery.

Who the f*ck cares about 11 rings? Russell played on a STACKED team often with 3 or 4 hall of famers in their prime at the same time in a league with 1/4 the teams that are in the league today. He was great at one end and he was average at another end. That doesn't put him ahead of Shaq or Hakeem.

[Younggrease]

:applause: towards this thread...It really needed to be made. Some of the bs being said need to be checked. Even heard people saying he had an arguement for GOAT center...

[lakers_forever]

Man Russell is overrated. He was an average offensive player. His best scoring season adjusts to less than 14 ppg with 40 mpg in the current NBA. Do Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo get credit for dominating the defensive end?

He is not overrated. He was the leader of a team who won 11 titles. After he retired, his team missed the playoffs. He led a inferior team to beat a Laker team with Baylor, West and Wilt in 1969.


He was an average offensive player

Maybe, but his team did not need offense. He did what was needed to win titles. Leadership and defense. He was arguably the best defender ever and second best rebounder ever. He was miles ahead of Ben Wallace or Mutombo.


Do Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo get credit for dominating the defensive end?

No. I guess it's maybe their were not the defensive anchor of a 11 time winning team. :violin:


And there's no way Wilt ranks above Kareem either.

It's a toss up between them. Two monsters. When you say there's no way one is ahead of the other, you lost credibility.

[rfm767]

I have seen some pretty ridiculous comments about the legacy of Hakeem on ISH lately, especially the GOAT centre thread. Does anyone else think he is rapidly becoming overrated on ISH?

Absolutely yes

[Maniak]

Who the f*ck cares about 11 rings? Russell played on a STACKED team often with 3 or 4 hall of famers in their prime at the same time in a league with 1/4 the teams that are in the league today. He was great at one end and he was average at another end. That doesn't put him ahead of Shaq or Hakeem.
We know.

You say this every thread you go into. STFU.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He is not overrated. He was the leader of a team who won 11 titles. After he retired, his team missed the playoffs. He led a inferior team to beat a Laker team with Baylor, West and Wilt in 1969.

Sam Jones, another key member of 10 of those 11 championship teams also retired in 1969. That obviously had something to do with the dropoff.



Maybe, but his team did not need offense. He did what was needed to win titles. Leadership and defense. He was arguably the best defender ever and second best rebounder ever. He was miles ahead of Ben Wallace or Mutombo.

Yes, he was arguably the best defender ever, but so is Hakeem Olajuwon and he's miles ahead of Russell offensively. The team didn't need offense because they were loaded with talent.


No. I guess it's maybe their were not the defensive anchor of a 11 time winning team. :violin:

Neither had the luxuary of playing with 3 or 4 all-star level players at a time in a league with 1/4 the amount of teams. Wallace did anchor a Pistons team that won 5 straight seasons, made 4 straight ECF, won a championship, were one game away from repeating as champions and a team that won 64 games one year. After that he even led a young Bulls team to nearly 50 wins and the 2nd round. In that time he won 4 defensive player of the year awards and became one of only 5 players to lead the league in blocks and rebounds in the same season.

Obviously Russell is miles ahead of Wallace, but if dominating defensively was as important as some make it out to be then Wallace wouldn't be a borderline hall of famer at best. The fact is that players like that need a lot of good offensive players around them. Players like Hakeem however don't, they can carry a team. Russell couldn't do that.


It's a toss up between them. Two monsters. When you say there's no way one is ahead of the other, you lost credibility.

No, Kareem is defintley the best center ever. 6 championships, superior longevity to anyone, comparable prime, much less selfish than Wilt or Shaq, you name it and Kareem has the advantage. Kareem is the only player with type of good case for being better than Jordan all time.


We know.

You say this every thread you go into. STFU.

And nobody comes up with a good argument against.

[STATmanLAKERFAN]

i hate the arguement about bill russell not being able to score in college he averaged 20/20 and more. he's like dennis rodman, averaged 26 points in college, they both could score but they both did what they needed for their team.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Russell could not score at an all-star level. 20/20 with the pace of his college days is a lot different than 20/20 now.

[Maniak]

And nobody comes up with a good argument against.

:rolleyes:

You are so agenda driven, its just sick.

[TheAnchorman]

Overall:

Kareem --> Wilt --> Russell --> Shaq --> Olajuwon (Depending on my bball mood I interchange Kareem and Wilt hehe)

Overall IMO = playing ability, career achievements, legacy, innovation and impact on the game. For me that last part has always propelled Russell above Hakeem and Shaq, Russell basically caused a paradigm shift in the game of basketball.

Peak playing ability:

Wilt --> Kareem --> Shaq --> Olajuwon --> Russell(?)


No. I guess it's maybe their were not the defensive anchor of a 11 time winning team.
Okay, but Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor of a 1-time winning team, which is 1 more championship than a lot of HOFers/future HOFers and an amazing accomplishment in itself. So why wouldn't he get the same recognition?

ShaqAttack makes a lotta good points, which is why I don't even know if Russell is top 5 in peak ability because of his sore lack of offensive game...

[Showtime]

No. He is the most talented big men of all time. And Is top 3 center of all time IMO
And how much of his career did you see?

[ShaqAttack3234]

:rolleyes:

You are so agenda driven, its just sick.

Nope, I have no agenda at all. You're just a f*cking retard. I question why people rank Russell so high because no other defensive specialist is ranked that high and nobody gives me a good answer. People only rank Russell that high because they think they're supposed to. The 11 championships excuse is bullsh*t because why aren't Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn ect. ranked higher? I'm sorry I'm not stupid enough to just rank someone highly because I'm supposed. I'll give Russell a ranking in the lower part of the top 10 players of all time, but any higher is absurd when you think about it.

[iLoveNBA]

You're just a f*cking retard. .
I concur with this powerful statement, but I disagree with your Russell being overrated statement, but I don't feel like arguing for Russell at the moment.

[lakers_forever]

Overall:

Kareem --> Wilt --> Russell --> Shaq --> Olajuwon (Depending on my bball mood I interchange Kareem and Wilt hehe)

Overall IMO = playing ability, career achievements, legacy, innovation and impact on the game. For me that last part has always propelled Russell above Hakeem and Shaq, Russell basically caused a paradigm shift in the game of basketball.

Peak playing ability:

Wilt --> Kareem --> Shaq --> Olajuwon --> Russell(?)

I can agree with that.


Okay, but Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor of a 1-time winning team, which is 1 more championship than a lot of HOFers/future HOFers and an amazing accomplishment in itself. So why wouldn't he get the same recognition?

Same recognition, no. He was an inferior rebounder, defender, passer, shotblocker... He was not close to Bill Russell as a basketball player. And 1 is not 11.

He definetly has a significance chance of getting to the hall of fame. Although I must say that IMHO, even Dennis Rodman was better than him.

[magnax1]

From what I've seen Hakeem has turned into the most over rated player ever, and Karl Malone has become the most under rated.

[lakers_forever]

People only rank Russell that high because they think they're supposed to. The 11 championships excuse is bullsh*t because why aren't Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn ect. ranked higher?

Can you explain me why Sam Jones, Havlicek, Cousy and Heinsohn were not the ones winning multiple MVP's?? You know, when the players themselves voted for MVP, Bill Russell won it 5 times. I guess that were only voting for Bill Russell because they were supposed to. :violin:

[globarticles]

I wouldn't be mad if people rank Hakeem #1. After all, he's up there with the big boys and add a couple of nostalgia here and there, we can understand why people would rank him there. One of the finest center indeed.

[rosonviyavong]

Wilt>Kareem>Russel>Hakeem>Shaq.
This

[wang4three]

One thread by an obvious idiot doesn't make a guy overrated.

[globarticles]

Can you explain me why Sam Jones, Havlicek, Cousy and Heinsohn were not the ones winning multiple MVP's?? You know, when the players themselves voted for MVP, Bill Russell won it 5 times. I guess that were only voting for Bill Russell because they were supposed to. :violin:
Bill Russell is indeed one of the greatest player.

[lakers_forever]

One thread by an obvious idiot doesn't make a guy overrated.

He is.

You have people saying stupid things like is the GOAT center. If Hakeem Olajuwon is better than Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain, he is arguably the greatest player ever. Do you see how stupid that is??

The GOAT center could not win a MVP before he was 30. The GOAT center did not make the first team when he was 27,28 or 29. Please... And you have several people ranking him as the top Center ever or saying there's no problem in ranking him first, yes there is. His career has absolutely nothing over guys like Wilt and Kareem. He is clearly overrated not only in ISH, but on most online forums.


No one voted for Olajuwon at first place and he had only one vote for second place:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

[JustinJDW]

No. He is the most talented big men of all time. And Is top 3 center of all time IMOIn my opinion, Kareem, Wilt and Russell are all higher on the All Time List

[mrhoopfan]

Robert Horry played with Hakeem, shaq and duncan and when asked who was the best he said.............................the Nigerian Nightmare

[wang4three]

He is.

You have people saying stupid things like is the GOAT center. If Hakeem Olajuwon is better than Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain, he is arguably the greatest player ever. Do you see how stupid that is??

I read that thread. The only people arguing for Hakeem were clear idiots who either had an agenda or had no reasoning behind it. It's why I never posted it in it. I don't care to talk to people who clearly won't change their minds.



The GOAT center could not win a MVP before he was 30. The GOAT center did not make the first team when he was 27,28 or 29. Please... And you have several people ranking him as the top Center ever or saying there's no problem in ranking him first, yes there is. His career has absolutely nothing over guys like Wilt and Kareem. He is clearly overrated not only in ISH, but on most online forums.


What are you trying to prove to me? I know he's not the GOAT C. I just don't care what idiots think.

[bdreason]

2nd best player I've ever seen play in their prime.

So, it's hard to overrate him in my book I guess.

[lakers_forever]

I read that thread. The only people arguing for Hakeem were clear idiots who either had an agenda or had no reasoning behind it. It's why I never posted it in it. I don't care to talk to people who clearly won't change their minds.



What are you trying to prove to me? I know he's not the GOAT C. I just don't care what idiots think.

Fair enough.

[takeittothehoop]

You can tell who the new school NBA fans are by some of the responses. Hakeem is not the GOAT center nor is he a top 3 center all time. Kareem, Wilt & Russell were all more consistent and dominant at their peaks than what Olajuwon was.

[Shepseskaf]

Nope, I have no agenda at all. You're just a f*cking retard. I question why people rank Russell so high because no other defensive specialist is ranked that high and nobody gives me a good answer. People only rank Russell that high because they think they're supposed to. The 11 championships excuse is bullsh*t because why aren't Sam Jones, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn ect. ranked higher? I'm sorry I'm not stupid enough to just rank someone highly because I'm supposed. I'll give Russell a ranking in the lower part of the top 10 players of all time, but any higher is absurd when you think about it.
I completely agree with this. People say "Bill Russell" and "11 rings" as though he was the only one responsible for winning them. Did Russell put the team on his back and carry them to their championships? I don't believe so... While he did provide the defensive anchor for his squads, other players stepped up offensively.

Skill-wise, Russell does not belong in the same category as Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, or even Sabonis. DRob was a much more skilled player.

Not that I'm hating on Russell, who was a great player, but he gets WAY too much credit for those championships. He was an important factor in his team's success but was not the overwhelming reason that they won.

[MiseryCityTexas]

and even if hes considered overrated on these forums, he was still mad underrated in the 90s even after he won them championships, because everyone was still on shaq's, pat ewing's, and alonzo mourning's nuts back in the day.

i means its gonna take awhile for anybody to break hakeem's shot blocking record. especially considering today's standards, because the majority of today's centers are soft as ****, or cant hoop worth ****.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Can you explain me why Sam Jones, Havlicek, Cousy and Heinsohn were not the ones winning multiple MVP's?? You know, when the players themselves voted for MVP, Bill Russell won it 5 times. I guess that were only voting for Bill Russell because they were supposed to. :violin:

I never said Jones, Havlicek, Cousy and Heinsohn were better than Russell, but winning a championship is a team accomplishment, particularly when the centerpiece of your team is your 4th option offensively.

In fact in Russell's first MVP season he was 4th on his team in scoring and only 0.1 ppg ahead of 5th place Frank Ramsey(another hall of fame player I forgot). The leading scorer was Bill Sharman(another hall of fame player I forgot). As you see Russell played with so many hall of famers that his 11 championships are the perfect example of why titles are team accomplishments and you have to view them in the right context.

Don't forget that Cousy led the league in assists the first 5 seasons Russell was in the NBA and they were teammates. You also can't forget that Cousy was really the key to their offensive game and Cousy consistently averaged more points than Russell during that time. So is it a stretch to say that Cousy was as valuable for Russell's first 4 or 5 years in the league? That'd make Russell the defensive MVP(who also started a lot of their fastbreaks) and Cousy the offensive MVP for the first few championships.

In Russell's second and fourth MVP season he had 6 hall of fame teammates and he had no less than 5 hall of fame teammates in any of his MVP seasons. Most of the time they were at or around their primes. And Russell's last MVP season was in 1965(when Sam Jones averaged 26 ppg). That leaves 3 Celtic championships after that where you could easily make a case that both Havlicek and Jones were better than Russell. In fact by the time of Russell's last championship he wasn't even averaging double digits in points and that was in the 1960's when the pace was very fast!

So don't act like Russell was the undisputed best player on all 11 titles. They consistently had a great team. Havlicek and Cousy are arguably top 5 at their position. I'm sure some older fans/players would make a case that Sam Jones is a top 5 SG as well. Was Russell the undisputed best player for a while on those teams? Yes, but on more than half of those teams you could make a case for other players.

I've watched as much footage as I've been able to from that era and Russell was a very limited offensive player. I didn't see him score much aside from open dunks. He had an ugly jumper and an aqward hook shot I saw him shoot, but he didn't make those at a particularly good rate. What I did notice is that he ran the floor well for a big man and handled the ball well for that time, but he really was very limtied offensively and he needed a team with a few great scorers on it to be successful. As a result I don't see how he can be ranked ahead of Kareem, Shaq, Wilt and Hakeem who didn't need a certain type of teammate, particularly Shaq, Kareem and Hakeem who won without multiple stars certain years. Watch footage of Russell yourself and honestly tell me he was better than those other 4 centers I mentioned. Offensively I see him somewhere between Mutombo and Ben Wallace. Bigger than Wallace and more athletic than Mutombo though and a better passer(particularly outlet passer) than either.

MVP's are a bad way to judge too. They're always very subjective and it always depends on how lucky you are as far as how many other great seasons players had that year. For example Steve Nash has 2 MVP's.

[MiseryCityTexas]

I completely agree with this. People say "Bill Russell" and "11 rings" as though he was the only one responsible for winning them. Did Russell put the team on his back and carry them to their championships? I don't believe so... While he did provide the defensive anchor for his squads, other players stepped up offensively.

Skill-wise, Russell does not belong in the same category as Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, or even Sabonis. DRob was a much more skilled player.

Not that I'm hating on Russell, who was a great player, but he gets WAY too much credit for those championships. He was an important factor in his team's success but was not the overwhelming reason that they won.

yeah. everyone on russel's celtics team either had a sick set shot jumper (bill sharman, insert any white nba player from the 50s who played on the celtics here), played tenacious d (kc jones), score in the post (tom heinson, don nelson) or could score off the dribble (bob cousy, sam jones). so bill russel had alot of help.

[takeittothehoop]

What some people don"t realise is that russell's teamates became so good because of him. Because if they didn't have Russell's outstanding defense they would have given up far more points and struggled in the rebound department. Which then means you ultimately lose more games and those players would have never got the credibillity they did. That's just what I think anyway.

[Shepseskaf]

MVP's are a bad way to judge too. They're always very subjective and it always depends on how lucky you are as far as how many other great seasons players had that year. For example Steve Nash has 2 MVP's.
Agreed again. Does anyone want to make an argument that Nash was a better player than Isiah -- who has zero MVPs?

[ShaqAttack3234]

What some people don"t realise is that russell's teamates became so good because of him. Because if they didn't have Russell's outstanding defense they would have given up far more points and struggled in the rebound department. That's just what I think anyway.

Bob Cousy led the league in assists 4 straight years before Russell as a Celtic. During that time his scoring numbers were also identical to his numbers with Russell. Bill Sharman produced at the same rate for a few years before Russell arrived. Tom Heinsohn was a rookie the same year as Russell and played well enough to win rookie of the year despite Russell missing almost half the season because of injuries. John Havlicek won 2 championships and had his best statistical seasons after Russell retired. These were good players no matter what. Russell without a doubt was a big part of the team, but he didn't turn these players into good players, they were great with or without Russell.


Agreed again. Does anyone want to make an argument that Nash was a better player than Isiah -- who has zero MVPs?

I sure hope not. :oldlol:

[takeittothehoop]

Russell was entering the latter part of his career when Havlicek entered the league. You can't say Russell leaving helped him win a championship.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Russell was entering the latter part of his career when Havlicek entered the league. You can't say Russell leaving helped him win a championship.

Havlicek was drafted in 1962 and who said Russell leaving helped him? I said that Havlicek didn't need Russell to be a great player which is true.

[iLoveNBA]

Hakeem was better than Shaq, If you ask me. At least prime wise Hakeem was better, Shaq has the longevity advantage though.

1. KAJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq

[takeittothehoop]

He didn't need Russell then because he was nearing the end of his career thus meaning he was less helpful/ effective. He wasn't a major part of the team like he was in the mid 50's.

[takeittothehoop]

Hakeem was better than Shaq, If you ask me. At least prime wise Hakeem was better, Shaq has the longevity advantage though.

1. KAJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq
Can't argue much with that list. Hakeem/ shaq could almost go either way.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He didn't need Russell then because he was nearing the end of his career thus meaning he was less helpful/ effective. He wasn't a major part of the team like he was in the mid 50's.

What does that have to do with anything? The fact is that you said that Russell's teammates were so good because of Russell. You have no evidence to back that up. I already proved that wrong in the case of Cousy and Sharman and there's evidence to suggest that's not the case with Havlicek or Heinsohn either.

[takeittothehoop]

If you Take Russell away from that team then Cousy, sharman, jones etc. would never have became the defenders they were which would mean they give up a ton Of points and have no interior defense and they certainly would not have won 11 titles.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Of course Boston wouldn't have won 11 titles without Russell, that goes without saying, but regardless the hall of famers Russell played with were great players in their own right. Russell made their job easier defensively, but they made his job easier offensively.

[takeittothehoop]

Defense wins championships though. Judging russell really comes down to what attributes you appreciate the most in a basketball player.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Regardless dominant offensive players and average defenders are more valuable in general than the other way around. For example who would you rather have? A Larry Bird/Magic Johnson or Dikembe Mutombo/Ben Wallace?

[takeittothehoop]

Regardless dominant offensive players and average defenders are more valuable in general than the other way around. For example who would you rather have? A Larry Bird/Magic Johnson or Dikembe Mutombo/Ben Wallace?
That's a bad example.. We're talking about starting fives here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's a bad example.. We're talking about starting fives here.

How is it a bad example? We're talking about individual players in this thread. The thread is about Hakeem Olajuwon being overrated as an individual.

[Bigsmoke]

Hakeem is the greatest center ever IMO

Jabbar just played in the league for a long ass period of time. he was ahead of my time but to me he didnt really have that much of a offensive game besides that boring sky hook ****. Hakeem had the sickest post game, he shoots the ball pretty well, amazing defender, ect ect.

[Fatal9]

Hakeem is the greatest center ever IMO

Jabbar just played in the league for a long ass period of time. he was ahead of my time but to me he didnt really have that much of a offensive game besides that boring sky hook ****. Hakeem had the sickest post game, he shoots the ball pretty well, amazing defender, ect ect.
:roll:

[Bigsmoke]

:roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1yVfJs6OcI


and these are his highlights lol.

[takeittothehoop]

How is it a bad example? We're talking about individual players in this thread. The thread is about Hakeem Olajuwon being overrated as an individual.
Hypothetical 2 on 2 matchups are just dumb. I don't like them.

[catch24]

How is it a bad example? We're talking about individual players in this thread. The thread is about Hakeem Olajuwon being overrated as an individual.

Hakeem is definitely not overrated - the most skilled offensive center ever IMO. Defensively, he's second to none, hell better than Bill Russel...certainly.

1992-93 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
1993-94 NBA Defensive Player of the Year
3830 blocks - #1 all time
Career 94.9 defensive win shares - #1 all time

top 3 Center no question

[takeittothehoop]

Lol yeah Kareem had no offensive game.. He struggled to score throughout his career.

[Bigsmoke]

Lol yeah Kareem had no offensive game.. He struggled to score throughout his career.

i didnt say he counldnt score... i said he only can score one way it seems. like i said in my post, he's ahead of my time

[DC Zephyrs]

Hakeem is arguably the most complete big man to ever play the game. He's one of the few players who could carry a team on both ends of the floor.

[catch24]

Hakeem is the greatest center ever IMO

Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed

[Butters]

Just because one turd makes a thread that Hakeem is the best center doesn't automaticly make him overrated.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hypothetical 2 on 2 matchups are just dumb. I don't like them.

:oldlol: I didn't mean a hypothetical 2 on2 matchup. I meant a Mutombo/Wallace type player who was a domiannt defender/average at best offensive player or a dominant offensive player like Bird or Magic who are domiannt offensive players/average at best defenders.


Hakeem is definitely not overrated - the most skilled offensive center ever IMO. Defensively, he's second to none, hell better than Bill Russel...certainly.


I never said Hakeem was overrated.

[catch24]

I never said Hakeem was overrated.

didn't mean to quote you..was towards the guy with the dave chapelle avatar, lol.

[Shepseskaf]

Hakeem is probably underrated on ISH. When the question of the GOAT comes up, how many times does his name get mentioned -- unless its a thread specifically focusing on him?

[Kiddlovesnets]

This is my list of top 10 center in NBA history:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdur Jabbar
3. Bill Russel
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. George Mikan
7. Bill Walton
8. David Robinson
9. Moses Malone
10. Patrick Ewing

Hakeem is definitely a top 5 center, but nowhere close to GOAT centers like Wilt and Kareem.

[Melissa]

Hakeem's prime > any other center's prime

only kareem is better

[Bigsmoke]

This is my list of top 10 center in NBA history:

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdur Jabbar
3. Bill Russel
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. George Mikan
7. Bill Walton
8. David Robinson
9. Moses Malone
10. Patrick Ewing

Hakeem is definitely a top 5 center, but nowhere close to GOAT centers like Wilt and Kareem.

its opinions but what makes Bill Walton better than Moses Malone?

[lbj23clutch]

LMAO @ Hakeem bieng overrated, if anything he's underrated by the media.

[Younggrease]

Hakeem is probably underrated on ISH. When the question of the GOAT comes up, how many times does his name get mentioned -- unless its a thread specifically focusing on him?

I hope it never gets mentioned...then it would be right where it needs to be. He isnt in the GOAT conversation and anyone who says he is engaging in revisionist history

[East River Livn']

LMAO @ Hakeem bieng overrated, if anything he's underrated by the media.

Read the topic again.

Hakeem is extremely overrated here. It's totally true.

[PHILA]

Hakeem's prime > any other center's prime


:no:

[NinjaSeal]

hakeem has a quadruple double.. does jordan?

o wait 6 jordan has 6 rings

[Psileas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1yVfJs6OcI


and these are his highlights lol.

These (except form a few plays) are not his "highlights". This is the result of the limited footage that exists for a player like Kareem compared to a player like Hakeem. Kareem has tons of highlights that haven't appeared in any "highlight" clip, because these clips do nothing but recycle plays that they stole from 2-3 documentaries.

And, while we are at it, how the heck is the skyhook "boring"? The only "boring" thing about it is that it's virtually unblockable and it's annoyingly accurate...

[jlauber]

These (except form a few plays) are not his "highlights". This is the result of the limited footage that exists for a player like Kareem compared to a player like Hakeem. Kareem has tons of highlights that haven't appeared in any "highlight" clip, because these clips do nothing but recycle plays that they stole from 2-3 documentaries.

And, while we are at it, how the heck is the skyhook "boring"? The only "boring" thing about it is that it's virtually unblockable and it's annoyingly accurate...


Kareem's sky-hook was arguably the most deadly shot in NBA history...but there was ONE player who consistently challenged it. Chamberlain ROUTINELY blocked Kareem's sky-hook, and held him to a 100 pts below his career FG% (in fact, about 120 below in Kareem's prime statistical years (70-71 thru 72-73.) In the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt blocked 15 of them in the series, and 11 of Kareem's shots in the last two games. AND, Wilt was 11 years older, and playing on one surgically repaired knee. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have done to Kareem's offense.

[zizozain]

lol thread backfire

http://www.stateofgrace.net/lj/backfire.gif

[Horde of Temujin]

id take prime Olajuwon over any other big man to play in the L

[bdreason]

Kareem > Hakeem > Shaq


I don't bother ranking Wilt or Russell because I never saw them play. If someone wants to argue Shaq over Hakeem, I don't mind. I just choose Hakeem because he was a superior defender, and more reliable down the stretch of games.

[The_Yearning]

Wilt and Russel would get their asses dusted today.

[lakerHater]

No. He is the most talented big men of all time. And Is top 3 center of all time IMO

Exactly....& can you really overrate a legend?? :confusedshrug:

[DwightHowardMVP]

Op is a idiot. Hakeem> Duncan, Shaq

[G-train]

I watched Hakeem's entire career, and in his prime he was often referred to as one of the greatest centres ever. 92-95 Hakeem basically perfected the Centre position. If you don't believe that you were too young or don't know basketball. Him, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell all deserve to be on par. And probably David Robinson and Patrick Ewing as well.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kareem's sky-hook was arguably the most deadly shot in NBA history...but there was ONE player who consistently challenged it. Chamberlain ROUTINELY blocked Kareem's sky-hook, and held him to a 100 pts below his career FG% (in fact, about 120 below in Kareem's prime statistical years (70-71 thru 72-73.) In the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt blocked 15 of them in the series, and 11 of Kareem's shots in the last two games. AND, Wilt was 11 years older, and playing on one surgically repaired knee. One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have done to Kareem's offense.

You can't post in a thread without bringing up Wilt, can you?

[rfm767]

Yes.

[Lebron23]

Wilt and Russel would get their asses dusted today.

Prime Wilt Chamberlain would destroy and humiliate Dwight Howard.

Pau Gasol outplayed Dwight in the 2009 NBA Finals.

[jlauber]

You can't post in a thread without bringing up Wilt, can you?

Well, it appears, neither can you...

take a look at the ninth post on page 1...


No, Hakeem is not overrated here. Bill Russell defintley is and Wilt probably is as well(due to his early stats).

Of course, YOU know that Russell and Wilt would be complete busts in today's NBA, right?

Just like you bring up that Shaq would abuse the greats of the 60's. Yes, he could brutally pound those guys, perhaps, just as he pounded the players of HIS era. BUT, he would have fouled out in first five minutes back then. In the 60's and 70's, they called CHARGING and TRAVELING. I must have missed the season in which those became legal, but it was definitely legal in Shaq's era.

Yep, Shaq would have KILLED Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld, Gilmore, Kareem, Lanier, Hayes, and Wilt...

BUT against the powerhouse duo of Ostertag and Foster in the '97 playoffs, he could only muster 22 ppg on 49% shooting. And, yes he could score 27 ppg against 6-7 Ben Wallace too, in his career. WOW!

BTW, I would have loved watching Shaq chase Cowens, Reed, Lucas, Bellamy, Lanier, Hayes, et.al ALL OVER the floor on defense, too. Those guys could actually SHOOT the ball, unlike the bulk of centers that Shaq faced in his career.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just like you bring up that Shaq would abuse the greats of the 60's. Yes, he could brutally pound those guys, perhaps, just as he pounded the players of HIS era. BUT, he would have fouled out in first five minutes back then. In the 60's and 70's, they called CHARGING and TRAVELING. I must have missed the season in which those became legal, but it was definitely legal in Shaq's era.

Yep, Shaq would have KILLED Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld, Gilmore, Kareem, Lanier, Hayes, and Wilt...

BUT against the powerhouse duo of Ostertag and Foster in the '97 playoffs, he could only muster 22 ppg on 49% shooting. And, yes he could score 27 ppg against 6-7 Ben Wallace too, in his career. WOW!

BTW, I would have loved watching Shaq chase Cowens, Reed, Lucas, Bellamy, Lanier, Hayes, et.al ALL OVER the floor on defense, too. Those guys could actually SHOOT the ball, unlike the bulk of centers that Shaq faced in his career.

:roll: What a troll. Your 55 and it seems like you're in love with Wilt. What are you Wilt's illegitimate son or a former groupie?

So now you're blaming the refs for Shaq's dominance? You're pathetic. Just because Wilt and Russell didn't have footwork as good as Shaq's doesn't mean he traveled all the time.

Look at what Shaq did to Greg Ostertag in the '98 WCF. 32 ppg on 56% shooting. And if Ostertag is such a scrub then how did he basically match Olajuwon in an elimination game?

Ostertag- 16 pts, 14 rbs, 3 blks, 6/6 FG, 4/4 FT, 0 turnovers
Olajuwon- 16 pts, 11 rbs, 6 asts, 6 blks, 8/12 FG, 3 turnovers

Ostertag was a good shot blocker and defender and bigger overall than any player Wilt faced other than Artis Gilmore.

You don't think Shaq faced centers a lot of that could shoot? Olajuwon? Robinson? Sabonis? Ewing? Mourning? Divac? Ilgauskas? Yao? Smits?

I'd love to see Cowens, Reed and Lucas even attempt to guard Shaq 1 on 1. They'd either foul out or he'd drop 40+(and no, not an inflated 40 like Wilt's).

Oh wait....nevermind. Wilt had a 48" vertical, he could kiss the top of the backboard, he would have shot 90% on 3s had their been a 3 point line, he only missed his free throws because the game was too easy for him. He lost to Boston on purpose becayse Bill Russell paid him.

[FCN]

Prime Sabonis > Hakeem

[jlauber]

:roll: What a troll. Your 55 and it seems like you're in love with Wilt. What are you Wilt's illegitimate son or a former groupie?

So now you're blaming the refs for Shaq's dominance? You're pathetic. Just because Wilt and Russell didn't have footwork as good as Shaq's doesn't mean he traveled all the time.

Look at what Shaq did to Greg Ostertag in the '98 WCF. 32 ppg on 56% shooting. And if Ostertag is such a scrub then how did he basically match Olajuwon in an elimination game?

Ostertag- 16 pts, 14 rbs, 3 blks, 6/6 FG, 4/4 FT, 0 turnovers
Olajuwon- 16 pts, 11 rbs, 6 asts, 6 blks, 8/12 FG, 3 turnovers

Ostertag was a good shot blocker and defender and bigger overall than any player Wilt faced other than Artis Gilmore.

You don't think Shaq faced centers a lot of that could shoot? Olajuwon? Robinson? Sabonis? Ewing? Mourning? Divac? Ilgauskas? Yao? Smits?

I'd love to see Cowens, Reed and Lucas even attempt to guard Shaq 1 on 1. They'd either foul out or he'd drop 40+(and no, not an inflated 40 like Wilt's).

Oh wait....nevermind. Wilt had a 48" vertical, he could kiss the top of the backboard, he would have shot 90% on 3s had their been a 3 point line, he only missed his free throws because the game was too easy for him. He lost to Boston on purpose becayse Bill Russell paid him.

Now OSTERTAG is a great defender??? You are REALLY grasping for straws here...

How about Eddie Curry then?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01

In their 13 CAREER H2H games, dating back to 01-02 season, we see that Shaq was able to outscore Curry 15.5 to to 12.8 (although, to Curry's credit, he outshot Shaq .533 to .529.) Of course, the fierce rebounder that Shaq was, he managed to outrebound Curry, 6.9 to 5.0.

Ok, go ahead...Curry would have dominated players like Kareem, Walton, Cowens, Reed, Bellamy, Russell, Thurmond, Lanier, ...and Wilt...RIGHT???

[ShaqAttack3234]

Now OSTERTAG is a great defender??? You are REALLY grasping for straws here...

When did I say great? I said he was a good shot blocker and defensive player and he was. You're the one who grasps at straws such as Wilt's "near championships" :roll:


How about Eddie Curry then?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=curryed01&p2=onealsh01

In their 13 CAREER H2H games, dating back to 01-02 season, we see that Shaq was able to outscore Curry 15.5 to to 12.8 (although, to Curry's credit, he outshot Shaq .533 to .529.) Of course, the fierce rebounder that Shaq was, he managed to outrebound Curry, 6.9 to 5.0.

Nice try, in the first game in that head to head log, Curry played 6 minutes and Shaq played 33 so those numbers had virtually nothing to do with Shaq vs Curry in that game.

In the second game, Shaq didn't even start and it was his first game of the season coming back late from surgery and he only played 21 minutes.

In the 4th game, Shaq left after playing just 25 minutes with an injury.

In the 5th game, Miami blew out Chicago by 24 so Shaq only had to play 30 minutes.

In the 7th game, Shaq only played 32 minutes, but still dominated with 26/10/6/5.

In the 8th game, Shaq left after 2 minutes and never returned.

In the 9th game, Shaq only played 22 minutes in another 20 point victory.

In the 10th game, Shaq had 18 points on 9/13 shooting in just 23 minutes

by the time of the 11th, 12th and 13th games( 2006-2007 2007-2008 seasons) Shaq was well past his prime.

You failed to mention in your comparison that Shaq only averaged 27 mpg in those games, or the fact that in one of them he was playing his first game of the year coming off surgery or 2 others that he left early with injuries, one after 2 minutes. Or the fact that many of the games were blowouts.

:roll: Your agenda is obvious.

[jlauber]

When did I say great? I said he was a good shot blocker and defensive player and he was. You're the one who grasps at straws such as Wilt's "near championships" :roll:



Nice try, in the first game in that head to head log, Curry played 6 minutes and Shaq played 33 so those numbers had virtually nothing to do with Shaq vs Curry in that game.

In the second game, Shaq didn't even start and it was his first game of the season coming back late from surgery and he only played 21 minutes.

In the 4th game, Shaq left after playing just 25 minutes with an injury.

In the 5th game, Miami blew out Chicago by 24 so Shaq only had to play 30 minutes.

In the 7th game, Shaq only played 32 minutes, but still dominated with 26/10/6/5.

In the 8th game, Shaq left after 2 minutes and never returned.

In the 9th game, Shaq only played 22 minutes in another 20 point victory.

In the 10th game, Shaq had 18 points on 9/13 shooting in just 23 minutes

by the time of the 11th, 12th and 13th games( 2006-2007 2007-2008 seasons) Shaq was well past his prime.

You failed to mention in your comparison that Shaq only averaged 27 mpg in those games, or the fact that in one of them he was playing his first game of the year coming off surgery or 2 others that he left early with injuries, one after 2 minutes. Or the fact that many of the games were blowouts.

:roll: Your agenda is obvious.


NO MORE OBVIOUS THAN YOUR'S...which has been to discredit WILT at EVERY turn.

I am sick-and-tired of your idiotic posts.

[ShaqAttack3234]

NO MORE OBVIOUS THAN YOUR'S...which has been to discredit WILT at EVERY turn.

I am sick-and-tired of your idiotic posts.

:roll: All I do is point out his flaws. I wouldn't have to if you didn't overrate the shit out of him. I only started when you started spewing your fanboy crap about Wilt having a 48" vertical(you don't still believe that, do you?) or your fantasy of him averaging 40/20 on 60% in 2000. :lol

Yeah, my posts are idiotic because I don't believe a career 51% free throw shooter had Kevin Garnett type range(20 feet).

Give it up, I've destroyed all of your pathetic posts. Stop while you still have some dignity. Like I said, you must be either Wilt's illegitimate son or a former groupie. There's no other explanation. Either that or you're mentally handicapped.

[TMac&Luther]

I have seen some pretty ridiculous comments about the legacy of Hakeem on ISH lately, especially the GOAT centre thread. Does anyone else think he is rapidly becoming overrated on ISH?

Nope....eat a dick and die. Hakeem might be the most complete basketball player of all time and this is coming from someone who was old enough to see the guy play in his prime.

Hakeem is actually underrated due to the whole "Jordan retired crap" and the fact that his best shot at titles early was derailed, because of crackheads.

The man was a straight all time great beast....just as good as any all time great player...stop hating.

[TMac&Luther]

Prime Sabonis > Hakeem

:roll: Oh shit... :oldlol: wow:roll:

WTF.

[magnax1]

Nope....eat a dick and die. Hakeem might be the most complete basketball player of all time and this is coming from someone who was old enough to see the guy play in his prime.

Hakeem is actually underrated due to the whole "Jordan retired crap" and the fact that his best shot at titles early was derailed, because of crackheads.

The man was a straight all time great beast....just as good as any all time great player...stop hating.
This comment proves the threads point. Most complete player of all time
:oldlol:

[TMac&Luther]

This comment proves the threads point. Most complete player of all time
:oldlol:

steals, blocks, rebounds, elite athleticism, not to mention his complete offensive game and complete defensive game where in his prime he could defend against guards and was one of the best post defenders of all time....as well as recording two quadruple doubles (one of which was stolen from him)

Instead of laughing would you care to suggest a more complete player? :rolleyes:

I would love to hear your response.

LOL at Jazz fan, doesn't the mail man have a 13 year old slot to stuff somewhere?

[jlauber]

:roll: All I do is point out his flaws. I wouldn't have to if you didn't overrate the shit out of him. I only started when you started spewing your fanboy crap about Wilt having a 48" vertical(you don't still believe that, do you?) or your fantasy of him averaging 40/20 on 60% in 2000. :lol

Yeah, my posts are idiotic because I don't believe a career 51% free throw shooter had Kevin Garnett type range(20 feet).

Give it up, I've destroyed all of your pathetic posts. Stop while you still have some dignity. Like I said, you must be either Wilt's illegitimate son or a former groupie. There's no other explanation. Either that or you're mentally handicapped.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html


[Carl Braun said] "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk


Wilt Chamberlain was known to have dunked on an experimental 12-foot basket set up by Phog Allen at the University of Kansas in the 1950s.[4] Michael Wilson, a former Harlem Globetrotter and University of Memphis basketball player, matched this feat on April 1, 2000 albeit with an alley-oop. Dwight Howard dunked on an 11ft 6in basket in the 2009 NBA dunk contest also off an ally-oop.

Jim Pollard[5], Wilt Chamberlain[4], Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, Stromile Swift, Shawn Kemp, Grant Hill, Darrell Griffith, Korleone Young, Edgar Jones, LeBron James, James White, Vince Carter, Jason Richardson, Jamario Moon, Chris Webber, Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, Jr., Brent Barry and Al Thornton have each dunked while jumping from around the free throw line, which is 15 feet from the basket. Unlike the others, Wilt Chamberlain did not require a full running start, but instead began his movement from inside the top half of the free throw circle.[4]


Of course, YOU came up with something like a 32" vertical, and Fatal9 even posted a 24"...BOTH of which were laughable considering that Wilt was long-jumper, a triple-jumper, and a high jump CHAMPION in college.

Wilt averaging a 40-20 .600 in 2000???

Well, based upon taking Wilt, from 61-62, and transporting him to 99-00...

The NBA in the 61-62 season took 108 FGAs and 37 FTAs per game. And Wilt's Warriors grabbed 64 rpg. In the 99-00 NBA, the league averaged 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs, per game. And Shaq's Lakers grabbed 47 rpg.

Even for allowing Wilt to shoot .506 in 99-00, which he CLEARLY would have done better against the LEAGUE AVERAGE...

Wilt takes 29.6 FGA, makes 14.8, takes 11.5 FTAs, and makes 7. 14.8 x 2= 29.6 + 7= 36.7 ppg. And, take Wilt's 25.7 rpg down to the league that Shaq played in, and he gets 18.9 rpg.

Of course, that was NOT a PRIME Wilt, either, one who absolutely OVERWHELMED the NBA in his 66-67 season (24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 shooting, 7.8 apg, and probably the leading shot-blocker as well.) Or who was nearly as great in 67-68 (when he also led the NBA in assists.) True, he did not score as much...BUT, he had several 40 pt games (including a 43 point game on 18-18 shooting), as well as games of 52, 53, 53, 58 (on 26-34 shooting), and 68 points. Add in his two 60+ games in '69, (the 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting BTW), and CLEARLY, the man could have scored MUCH more.

What would have a PRIME Wilt, circa 66-68, have done to the clowns who manned the pivot in the 99-00? (and only playing the good ones 2-4 times a year...unless, of course, they missed games...something that Wilt hardly EVER did in his CAREER.)

But, unfortunately for Wilt, he faced Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Russell, NINE times each that year. He didn't get to routinely face the caliber of player like Ostertag, or Curry, on an almost nightly basis.

[plowking]

Anyone who rates him above Shaq, overrates him.

[juju151111]

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk



Of course, YOU came up with something like a 32" vertical, and Fatal9 even posted a 24"...BOTH of which were laughable considering that Wilt was long-jumper, a triple-jumper, and a high jump CHAMPION in college.

Wilt averaging a 40-20 .600 in 2000???

Well, based upon taking Wilt, from 61-62, and transporting him to 99-00...

The NBA in the 61-62 season took 108 FGAs and 37 FTAs per game. And Wilt's Warriors grabbed 64 rpg. In the 99-00 NBA, the league averaged 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs, per game. And Shaq's Lakers grabbed 47 rpg.

Even for allowing Wilt to shoot .506 in 99-00, which he CLEARLY would have done better against the LEAGUE AVERAGE...

Wilt takes 29.6 FGA, makes 14.8, takes 11.5 FTAs, and makes 7. 14.8 x 2= 29.6 + 7= 36.7 ppg. And, take Wilt's 25.7 rpg down to the league that Shaq played in, and he gets 18.9 rpg.

Of course, that was NOT a PRIME Wilt, either, one who absolutely OVERWHELMED the NBA in his 66-67 season (24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 shooting, 7.8 apg, and probably the leading shot-blocker as well.) Or who was nearly as great in 67-68 (when he also led the NBA in assists.) True, he did not score as much...BUT, he had several 40 pt games (including a 43 point game on 18-18 shooting), as well as games of 52, 53, 53, 58 (on 26-34 shooting), and 68 points. Add in his two 60+ games in '69, (the 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting BTW), and CLEARLY, the man could have scored MUCH more.

What would have a PRIME Wilt, circa 66-68, have done to the clowns who manned the pivot in the 99-00? (and only playing the good ones 2-4 times a year...unless, of course, they missed games...something that Wilt hardly EVER did in his CAREER.)

But, unfortunately for Wilt, he faced Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, Russell, NINE times each that year. He didn't get to routinely face the caliber of player like Ostertag, or Curry, on an almost nightly basis.
Stop posting your fantasy numbers. The game is slower today and have more back to backs. He wouldn't be able to sustain 30 and 16. He wpildn't even get that much shot attempts.

[jlauber]

Stop posting your fantasy numbers. The game is slower today and have more back to backs. He wouldn't be able to sustain 30 and 16. He wpildn't even get that much shot attempts.

You still posting that nonsense about more back-to-backs?????

Didn't you read my response the FIRST time????

Wilt played FIVE games, in FIVE days for cryingoutloud, as well as TWO the four-straight game sets, as well as TEN three-in-a-rows, as well, as 22 B2B's, which were more than Shaq had in 99-00. Oh, BTW, Wilt missed a TOTAL of 8 minutes and 33 seconds that ENTIRE season.

As far as "fanatasy numbers"...what were his numbers back then???

When Wilt came into the league, the record for ppg was 29.2 ppg. The record for rebounding was 23.0 rpg.. And the record for FG% was .490.

All he did in his 14 seasons, was to SHATTER every one of them, some several times over. AND, after he retired, NO ONE else came close to ANY of them. In his 14 years he DESTROYED every major scoring, rebounding, and FG% record.

Why ONLY Wilt?

Idiots here say that he wouldn't get 29 FGAs in a game today, DESPITE the fact that MJ had 28 in his best season, and Kobe 27 in his. Or that even Shaq, and Olajuwon have had games of over 30. Kareem routinely shot 30+ FGAs in games...where are HIS records? Or that, aside from ONE season, by Baylor, NO ONE else shot more than 30 FGAs DURING Wilt's era. Or that, aside from ONE season, by Bellamy, NO OTHER CENTER had ONE season over 20 FGAs DURING Wilt's career, until Kareem came along.

Rebounding? Yep, 6-8 Rodman could get 19 rpg in the 90's, but these Wilt-haters can't see a 7-1, high-jump champ, and probably the strongest basketball player of all-time,...who holds virtually every major rebounding record, and who outrebounded EVERY opposing center in his 29 post-season series, and who averaged 25 rpg in the post-season, while Rodman averaged less than TEN...they just can't accept the fact that Wilt would shatter Rodman's rebounding marks had he played in the same era of weak-rebounding centers.

FG%? No way Wilt would shoot .600 or more in TODAY's game...despite offensively challenged players like Dwight Howard doing it. While Wilt was shooting .727 in a season in which the league averaged .456, or .683 in a league that averaged .441...

PLEASE.

[TMac&Luther]

Anyone who rates him above Shaq, overrates him.

LOL, when did Hakeem EVER play with a player like Kobe or Wade? I'm not saying Hakeem should be above Shaq, but if he played with those players........he'd win multiple rings...just like Shaq.

BTW..."Penny" Hardaway was Kobe and Wade when Hakeem swept a prime Shaq......but everybody forgets about that. The truth is, is that Shaq has played with the most dominant swing men throughout his entire career......and that is even without adding Nash and LeBron.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Of course, YOU came up with something like a 32" vertical, and Fatal9 even posted a 24"...BOTH of which were laughable considering that Wilt was long-jumper, a triple-jumper, and a high jump CHAMPION in college.

Here's Wilt sprinting and going all out to the point where he falls and his head still isn't at the rim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8#t=3m20s

And that's probably the closest I've seen his head to the rim. Now, Shaq coming out of LSU recorded a 36" max vertical at the 1992 pre-draft camp. Here you can see that with a standing vert, his head is damn near rim level. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26oszd3z9Ns#t=0m33s

340 pound 28 year old Shaq, his shoulder isn't that far from rim level! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY#t=6m11s

Have YOU ever seen Wilt jump that high? If so, post the footage.

Here's Greg Oden who is shorter than Wilt but recorded a 32" standing vertical and a 34" max vert. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8fv810QfY8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7HzkEcKITo#t=0m59s

Look how explosive a center with even a 34" vertical looks.

Dwight Howard has a 9'3.5" standing reach and touches 12'6" here so we know he has a 38.5" vertical. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNK6VaBXeY

You're telling me Wilt not only jumped higher than all of them, but a foot higher?


Wilt averaging a 40-20 .600 in 2000???

Well, based upon taking Wilt, from 61-62, and transporting him to 99-00...

The NBA in the 61-62 season took 108 FGAs and 37 FTAs per game. And Wilt's Warriors grabbed 64 rpg. In the 99-00 NBA, the league averaged 82 FGAs per game, and 25 FTAs, per game. And Shaq's Lakers grabbed 47 rpg.

Even for allowing Wilt to shoot .506 in 99-00, which he CLEARLY would have done better against the LEAGUE AVERAGE...

Wilt takes 29.6 FGA, makes 14.8, takes 11.5 FTAs, and makes 7. 14.8 x 2= 29.6 + 7= 36.7 ppg. And, take Wilt's 25.7 rpg down to the league that Shaq played in, and he gets 18.9 rpg.

Except give Wilt a more realistic 40 mpg(which is the most any big man averaged in 2000). One of them was Kevin Garnett who is extremely durable and had to carry a team as much as any superstar.

Wilt's Warriors averaged 129.7 possessions per game, Shaq's Lakers averaged 93.3 possessions per game. Give Wilt the amount of FGA per possession and FTA per FGA in 40 mpg and he averages 30.7 ppg on 24 FGA. Give him the same percentage of his teams rebounds in 40 mpg and he averages 15.9 rpg and 1.8 apg.

And no, it's not clear that he would have shot better. The league average was lower then because of all the quick shots perimeter players took as well as the inferior ball handling skills of perimeter players at the time and the lack of guards who attacked the basket the same way perimeter players do now. Wilt would still be posting up, like he did then except there would be less transition opportunities and....

Every team is involved in a number of blowouts throughout the season, Wilt played every minute of the '62 season except an overtime game where he was ejected. Now even you must admit that means that Wilt was out there stat padding in blowouts, take that away and his stats probably drop even more.

And this isn't about what he would have averaged rather than putting his stats in perspective given the pace and minutes. I personally think he wouldn't be getting up 24 shots per game in 2000 or averaging 30. Even so, I'll admit that Wilt was a better rebounder than Shaq or Kareem, though the margin isn't as big as the initial stats suggest.


Of course, that was NOT a PRIME Wilt, either, one who absolutely OVERWHELMED the NBA in his 66-67 season (24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, .683 shooting, 7.8 apg, and probably the leading shot-blocker as well.) Or who was nearly as great in 67-68 (when he also led the NBA in assists.) True, he did not score as much...BUT, he had several 40 pt games (including a 43 point game on 18-18 shooting), as well as games of 52, 53, 53, 58 (on 26-34 shooting), and 68 points. Add in his two 60+ games in '69, (the 66 point game came on 29-35 shooting BTW), and CLEARLY, the man could have scored MUCH more.

In '68, he averaged 24 ppg on 17 FGA and 59.5% shooting. Just a year after this '67 version of Wilt that you claim would have averaged 40 ppg on 60% shooting in 2000.

In '66, Wilt with a scoring mentality averaged 33.5 ppg on 54% shooting and 25 FGA, so if he never proved he could average even 30 ppg on 60% shooting back then, it's ridiculous to suggest he could average 40 ppg on 60% now.

And in the playoffs those years? 28 ppg on 51% shooting in '66, 22 ppg on 58% shooting in '67 and 24 ppg on 54% shooting in '68. And keep in mind I'm not slamming Wilt for his production dropping in '67, he was phenomenal that year, even considering the pace, 22/29/9 is phenomenal, but I'm just making a point in response to your ridiculous claim that '67 Wilt could average 40 ppg on 60% shooting in 2000.

What made Wilt THAT much different than the version the year before who averaged 33.5 on 54%? Or the version a year later that averaged 24 ppg on 59.5% shooting. I'm not criticizing his efficiency either year, but I don't see a case for Wilt even averaging 30 on 60% because he never did it, or came particularly close. In fact, he never averaged 30 on 55% shooting.


What would have a PRIME Wilt, circa 66-68, have done to the clowns who manned the pivot in the 99-00? (and only playing the good ones 2-4 times a year...unless, of course, they missed games...something that Wilt hardly EVER did in his CAREER.)

Right....clowns. The Duncan/Robinson duo who he would have had to face 4 times in the West as well as Mourning and Mutombo in their primes. And before you say Robinson was washed up.....Look at what Robinson did in the 8 games that Tim Duncan missed. He led them to an 5-3 record and these were his numbers.

21.8 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 1.3 spg, 53.6 FG%, 75.7 FT%, 32.4 mpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

LOL, when did Hakeem EVER play with a player like Kobe or Wade? I'm not saying Hakeem should be above Shaq, but if he played with those players........he'd win multiple rings...just like Shaq.

BTW..."Penny" Hardaway was Kobe and Wade when Hakeem swept a prime Shaq......but everybody forgets about that. The truth is, is that Shaq has played with the most dominant swing men throughout his entire career......and that is even without adding Nash and LeBron.

1995 Drexler was every bit as good if not better than 2000 Kobe.

And when Olajuwon swept a prime(you mean 3rd year Shaq in his first extended playoff run), Olajuwon's teammates outplayed Shaq's. Olajuwon had 2 teammates score atleast 20 points in every game, Shaq only had 1 such game where 2 teammates scored 20, and that was game 1 when he had outplayed Olajuwon through regulation and almost guaranteed his team a win until Nick Anderson missed 4 straight free throws.

In fact in game 3, Shaq was the only Magic player to score 20 yet the difference was a Robert Horry game-winning 3.

Olajuwon did outplay Shaq, IMO, but not by a lot. Shaq certainly fared a lot better against Hakeem than Robinson or Ewing did. 2000 Shaq vs 1995 Hakeem would be a great matchup.

[icemanfan]

I have seen some pretty ridiculous comments about the legacy of Hakeem on ISH lately, especially the GOAT centre thread. Does anyone else think he is rapidly becoming overrated on ISH?
The guy got two championships the 2nd by sheer force of will. They were not the best team or the most talented Hakeem just wanted it more. Over rated? Not at all.

[dyna]

He's a top 10 player of all time.

The Most Skilled Center in NBA History.

This^^

[TMac&Luther]

1995 Drexler was every bit as good if not better than 2000 Kobe.

And when Olajuwon swept a prime(you mean 3rd year Shaq in his first extended playoff run), Olajuwon's teammates outplayed Shaq's. Olajuwon had 2 teammates score atleast 20 points in every game, Shaq only had 1 such game where 2 teammates scored 20, and that was game 1 when he had outplayed Olajuwon through regulation and almost guaranteed his team a win until Nick Anderson missed 4 straight free throws.

In fact in game 3, Shaq was the only Magic player to score 20 yet the difference was a Robert Horry game-winning 3.

Olajuwon did outplay Shaq, IMO, but not by a lot. Shaq certainly fared a lot better against Hakeem than Robinson or Ewing did. 2000 Shaq vs 1995 Hakeem would be a great matchup.

Yeah, let's totally toss away the championship Hakeem won without Drexler...it fits your lame argument much better.

And as far as fitting your sorry ass argument...let's ignore the fact that Shaq was at his statistical prime with Hakeem swept him..(or the fact that the only thing Nick Anderson would've contributed to that series would've been another game...whoo hoo a 4-1 game victory!)...... Alot of ignoring of facts going on, huh?

[magnax1]

steals, blocks, rebounds, elite athleticism, not to mention his complete offensive game and complete defensive game where in his prime he could defend against guards and was one of the best post defenders of all time....as well as recording two quadruple doubles (one of which was stolen from him)

Instead of laughing would you care to suggest a more complete player? :rolleyes:

I would love to hear your response.

LOL at Jazz fan, doesn't the mail man have a 13 year old slot to stuff somewhere?
How about Jordan, Duncan, Kareem, Wilt, and Oscar (his defense was average, but 30-10-10 is definitely a complete player) The idea that Hakeem is the best center ever in his prime, or the most complete player ever is pretty idiotic. He was complete, but not THE most complete player ever.
Hakeem had obvious problems as a player. He was a ball stopper, and while he was a pretty good passer he was very selfish. Sort of like Kobe Bryant is, except as a big man. If he didn't play like that the Rockets would have easily had another ring in 97, but instead their offense was completely stagnant against Utah, and it lost them the series.

[jlauber]

ShaqAttack,

I am not wasting space on this forum by copying your long reply. And I am also NOT going to repost the MANY links, and quotes, which verify his incredible leaping ability. If you can't accept a competitive college long jumper, and triple jumper, and high jump CHAMPION having an incredible vertical leap (whatever it may be), then you will never will. And, no we don't have much footage of anything about Wilt (although we do have enough which demonstrates his exceptional shooting ability.) The man played 50-60 years ago, and there just is not much out there.

We do have eyewitness accounts, by very well respected members of thge sports community, of which I have posted before, with him touching the top of the backboard...and touching a ceiling in which the sportswriter estimated that his vertical was at LEAST 42". Why would anyone waste their time with those comments? We also have the NBA outlawing the dunking of FTs, at a time when Wilt was credited with doing it. AND, we have his college coach setting up a 12 ft rim, while Wilt was going there...and we have links on the net which state that Chamberlain dunked on it.

Your footage of Wilt, running at full speed, and supposedly NOT having his head above rim level, is moot...he BLOCKS the shot...AND, he did so more HORIZONTALLY than VERTICALLY.

I have posted the great footage of his shot-blocking abilty before. In it you will see him BLOCKING the shot. What do you want him to do...block the shot with his chest?

AND, in the many debates that we have had on this issue, other's here have posted photos of Kareem and Gilmore, with THEIR heads at rim level (here again, I am tired of taking the time to look them up now)...and we KNOW that Chamberlain routinely outjumped BOTH of them...and he was well past his prime when he did so.

I have also posted footage from a Bulls-Lakers game in 1971, in which Wilt, from a stand-still, and with only a fraction of a second to react, blocks a shot, in which his hand is above the 12 ft mark on the backboard. What does that tell you? Here was Wilt, at age 34, and one year removed from major knee surgery, and at nearly 300 lbs, and without benefit of a running start, and with only a split second to start his jump...reaching 12 ft. In your honest opinion...what would a healthy Wilt, at age 22-28, at between 250-275 lbs, and with a running start, be capable of?

And obviously you believe, like so many here who did NOT see Wilt play...that he was some kind of offensive stumble-bum that merely dunked on helpless, wimpy, 6-6 white centers. Even though there IS limited footage out there which shows Wilt repeatedly hitting jump shots, turn-around jump shots, bank shots, and sweeping hook shots.

And, evidently you will go by the few complete games, most all of which are among Wilt's worst efforts...and accept them as the REAL Wilt....despite the fact that Chamberlain had 55 of the 61 40-30 games in NBA history, or his hundreds of 30-30 games, or his six 70+ point games, or his 32 60+ point games, or his 118 50 point games, or his several "perfect" games (some as high as 18-18), or his seven 40+ rebound games, or his 55 rebound game, or his 23 35+ rebound games, just against Russell, or his 24 40+point games, against Russell, or his 45 point blowout game of Thurmond (who scored 13 points in that game), or his 38-31 game against Thurmond, or his KNOWN 23 block game, or his recorded 25 block game, or his 78-43 game, or his 22-25-21 game, or his 24-32-13-12 game in the ECF's Finals against Russell, or his 29-36-13 game in the clinching game five win over Russell's Celtics in '67, or his...I could go on for hours.

And, you don't have to repeatedly post Shaq's great moves. I SAW Shaq play. I know that he was the most dominant player to have played the game...SINCE Wilt. I have ALWAYS acknowedged his greatness.

Look, I have always felt that Shaq, and Kareem, were two of the greatest centers of all-time. I SAW BOTH of them, in their PRIMES. IMHO, neither were as athletically gifted, nor as skilled as Wilt. Granted, Wilt did not play with Shaq's power, although he most certainly could have, nor did he have Russell's will to win. BUT, there is no question in my mind, that a PRIME Wilt, playing in today's NBA, would be the best center in the league. We can speculate all we want on what his numbers might be. BUT, there is no doubt that he would dominate the league today.

We can continue arguing this until the cows come home...but it won't change a thing. You will only believe what you want to believe. And we will never really know for sure how Wilt would do in today's game, or how Shaq would do in Wilt's era. I'll go by what I actually witnessed, and that was, that there will never be another player like Wilt. His amazing records speak for themselves. The ESPN Generation can come up with all kinds of theories on why Wilt was so dominant...BUT, they can't explain why it was ONLY Wilt that was.

So, you and I will once again, have to agree to disagree.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, let's totally toss away the championship Hakeem won without Drexler...it fits your lame argument much better.

And as far as fitting your sorry ass argument...let's ignore the fact that Shaq was at his statistical prime with Hakeem swept him..(or the fact that the only thing Nick Anderson would've contributed to that series would've been another game...whoo hoo a 4-1 game victory!)...... Alot of ignoring of facts going on, huh?

And in 1994, he played a team led by a center who also didn't have another star on his team. And Dream's 1994 team didn't have a player as good as 2000 Kobe, but Otis Thorpe>>>>the ancient version of AC Green that started on the 2000 Lakers. 1994 Horry>2000 Rice, Cassell/Kenny Smith>36 yr old Ron Harper and Derek Fisher(who shot 35% in the regular season and was demoted to the Lakers 4th guard in the playoffs, even behind an old Brian Shaw).

So Dream's teammates were better at 3 out of 5 positions so don't start with this teammate crap.

Talking about sorry ass arguments, you say Shaq was in his statistical prime in 1995, well, if we're using stats to determine this, Shaq outplayed Hakeem statistically.

And how do you know what would have happened had Anderson not choked? That completely shifted the momentum and was devastating to a young, inexperienced team.

And Dream (slightly) outplaying Shaq in '95 doesn't mean he had the better career or was better when comparing their primes. You can't say with a straight face that Shaq wasn't better in 2000 and 2001 than he was in 1995.

If you're going to argue, try coming with something better than that weak shit.

[alexandreben]

Gentlemen, I could be wrong, it seems to me that this thread is all about Hakeem "the dream" Olajuwon, instead of Wilt vs Shaq. Shall we go back to the dream Olajuwon please?

[Manute for Ever!]

Nope....eat a dick and die. Hakeem might be the most complete basketball player of all time and this is coming from someone who was old enough to see the guy play in his prime.

Hakeem is actually underrated due to the whole "Jordan retired crap" and the fact that his best shot at titles early was derailed, because of crackheads.

The man was a straight all time great beast....just as good as any all time great player...stop hating.

Let me clear something up for you and other posters who have taken offence to this thread since it was bumped. I started this thread almost a year ago at time when a poster, whose 30+ ISH accounts shall remain nameless, was making extremely outlandish threads stating that Olajuwon was the GOAT and others were stating he was top 5 all time, etc.
Now, I was always an Olajuwon fan and I loved his game, but it was in response to the general stupidity that was flooding the main board at that time. Yes, he is an all-time great, but you just had to be there when the thread was started (or maybe you are one of those accounts I mentioned:confusedshrug: ).

[juju151111]

You still posting that nonsense about more back-to-backs?????

Didn't you read my response the FIRST time????

Wilt played FIVE games, in FIVE days for cryingoutloud, as well as TWO the four-straight game sets, as well as TEN three-in-a-rows, as well, as 22 B2B's, which were more than Shaq had in 99-00. Oh, BTW, Wilt missed a TOTAL of 8 minutes and 33 seconds that ENTIRE season.

As far as "fanatasy numbers"...what were his numbers back then???

When Wilt came into the league, the record for ppg was 29.2 ppg. The record for rebounding was 23.0 rpg.. And the record for FG% was .490.

All he did in his 14 seasons, was to SHATTER every one of them, some several times over. AND, after he retired, NO ONE else came close to ANY of them. In his 14 years he DESTROYED every major scoring, rebounding, and FG% record.

Why ONLY Wilt?

Idiots here say that he wouldn't get 29 FGAs in a game today, DESPITE the fact that MJ had 28 in his best season, and Kobe 27 in his. Or that even Shaq, and Olajuwon have had games of over 30. Kareem routinely shot 30+ FGAs in games...where are HIS records? Or that, aside from ONE season, by Baylor, NO ONE else shot more than 30 FGAs DURING Wilt's era. Or that, aside from ONE season, by Bellamy, NO OTHER CENTER had ONE season over 20 FGAs DURING Wilt's career, until Kareem came along.

Rebounding? Yep, 6-8 Rodman could get 19 rpg in the 90's, but these Wilt-haters can't see a 7-1, high-jump champ, and probably the strongest basketball player of all-time,...who holds virtually every major rebounding record, and who outrebounded EVERY opposing center in his 29 post-season series, and who averaged 25 rpg in the post-season, while Rodman averaged less than TEN...they just can't accept the fact that Wilt would shatter Rodman's rebounding marks had he played in the same era of weak-rebounding centers.

FG%? No way Wilt would shoot .600 or more in TODAY's game...despite offensively challenged players like Dwight Howard doing it. While Wilt was shooting .727 in a season in which the league averaged .456, or .683 in a league that averaged .441...

PLEASE.
Where did you get these back to back stats from?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I am not wasting space on this forum by copying your long reply.

Yet you type a longer reply......


And I am also NOT going to repost the MANY links, and quotes, which verify his incredible leaping ability. If you can't accept a competitive college long jumper, and triple jumper, and high jump CHAMPION having an incredible vertical leap (whatever it may be), then you will never will.

None prove it as fact yet you act like these outrageous claims of Wilt having a 42"-48" vertical are fact. Most likely they are exaggerations. Yes, you have one guy who ESTIMATED Wilt as having a


And, no we don't have much footage of anything about Wilt (although we do have enough which demonstrates his exceptional shooting ability.) The man played 50-60 years ago, and there just is not much out there.

Exceptional shooting ability? Come on, he's making some 10-12 foot bank shots in a highlight mix. Since when are 10-12 footers exceptional? You claim he has Kevin Garnett range.....Garnett has regularly hit 18-20 footers and at a high percentage. If Wilt was hitting jumpshots, even from his own range at a Kevin Garnett type percentage, then his inside game wouldn't have been very consistent based on his shooting percentages in his scoring seasons. And of course, Garnett has become an 80% FT shooter while Wilt has always hovered around 50% and at times below 40%. We can't see how consistent that shot is from highlight videos which obviously don't show the misses.

Here, I can show Shaq hitting 3s. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBRESlJBbGs

Shaq hitting a faceup jumper. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjETgzSbg9k#t=1m12s

But I'd be lying if I said he did that consistently.


We do have eyewitness accounts, by very well respected members of thge sports community, of which I have posted before, with him touching the top of the backboard...and touching a ceiling in which the sportswriter estimated that his vertical was at LEAST 42". Why would anyone waste their time with those comments? We also have the NBA outlawing the dunking of FTs, at a time when Wilt was credited with doing it. AND, we have his college coach setting up a 12 ft rim, while Wilt was going there...and we have links on the net which state that Chamberlain dunked on it.

Many also claimed 6'1" Earl Manigault was able to touch the top of the backboard....do you believe that too? You ask why anyone would waste their time with those stories....well people exaggerate stories all the time, especially things that happened so long ago. You've never heard people greatly exaggerate stories to make them sound more interesting?

And as far as I've seen, Wilt was the guy who claimed he could dunk on a 12 foot basket. I've actually never seen one of Wilt's former teammates or his coach verify that the 12 foot basket was even set up and even if it was, that's not even close to proof that Wilt dunked on it. It may have been set up to see if he could or to see how players played on 12 foot rims.


Your footage of Wilt, running at full speed, and supposedly NOT having his head above rim level, is moot...he BLOCKS the shot...AND, he did so more HORIZONTALLY than VERTICALLY.

Yet he went all out to the point where he fell after. I just don't see a case for him being able to jump 16 or so inches higher than he did there.


I have posted the great footage of his shot-blocking abilty before. In it you will see him BLOCKING the shot. What do you want him to do...block the shot with his chest?

Except I've acknowledged Wilt's great shot blocking ability, I remarked about it in the '67 game available as well as game 5 of the '72 finals. I believe he was an incredible shot blocker, what I don't believe is that he could get his head effortlessly over the rim.


AND, in the many debates that we have had on this issue, other's here have posted photos of Kareem and Gilmore, with THEIR heads at rim level (here again, I am tired of taking the time to look them up now)...and we KNOW that Chamberlain routinely outjumped BOTH of them...and he was well past his prime when he did so.

Gilmore was a few inches away. Even his afro doesn't quite make it to the rim.
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0903/cbk.rich.clarkson.ncaa.photos/images/1970_ArtisGilmore.jpg

For what it's worth, Gilmore at his athletic peak probably could get his head at rim level, but that would mean he had a 34" vertical, amazing for a man his size.

I don't think Kareem quite got there in the photo
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/13/kareem_ucla.jpg

His head is closer to the camera than the rim and with his afro he doesn't quite make it. Doesn't mean he couldn't, but he'd need "only" a 33" vertical to accomplish this.

And still photos aren't as a reliable. Looks like Ralph Sampson could have done it and as we've agreed, he was more like 7'2" barefoot and 7'3" in shoes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGj4W9V-wCk#t=0m13s

And how do you know Wilt at that point could out-jump them in a jumping contest?


I have also posted footage from a Bulls-Lakers game in 1971, in which Wilt, from a stand-still, and with only a fraction of a second to react, blocks a shot, in which his hand is above the 12 ft mark on the backboard. What does that tell you? Here was Wilt, at age 34, and one year removed from major knee surgery, and at nearly 300 lbs, and without benefit of a running start, and with only a split second to start his jump...reaching 12 ft. In your honest opinion...what would a healthy Wilt, at age 22-28, at between 250-275 lbs, and with a running start, be capable of?

Well I did see Wilt going all out with a running start. And if he had a standing reach of 9'7" and touched 12' then that means he jumped 29" assuming your estimate is correct. But of course, that's not exact, what are you basing the 12' estimate on?

And I'll say it's possible Wilt had a vertical in the mid 30's in his prime, but that's about all I could possibly believe.


And obviously you believe, like so many here who did NOT see Wilt play...that he was some kind of offensive stumble-bum that merely dunked on helpless, wimpy, 6-6 white centers. Even though there IS limited footage out there which shows Wilt repeatedly hitting jump shots, turn-around jump shots, bank shots, and sweeping hook shots.

I don't believe they were wimpy white 6'6" centers. I already covered the jump shots, I've never denied that he could make them, but at what kind of percentage? Tom Heinsohn says the Celtics were thrilled to see Wilt shoot those shots because he felt like he was letting them off the hook.

As far as sweeping hooks? How many of those have we've seen in highlight mixes? 1 or 2?


Look, I have always felt that Shaq, and Kareem, were two of the greatest centers of all-time. I SAW BOTH of them, in their PRIMES. IMHO, neither were as athletically gifted, nor as skilled as Wilt. Granted, Wilt did not play with Shaq's power, although he most certainly could have, nor did he have Russell's will to win. BUT, there is no question in my mind, that a PRIME Wilt, playing in today's NBA, would be the best center in the league. We can speculate all we want on what his numbers might be. BUT, there is no doubt that he would dominate the league today.

I agree that Wilt would be better than Dwight Howard and as a result, the best center today.

I have no problem with you stating your opinions. Personally, I don't even see a case for Wilt being more skilled than Kareem(who was also more skilled than Shaq), but just don't state it as a fact. And don't state it as a fact that Wilt could jump higher than Dwight Howard because you can believe your sources all you want, but they're not confirmed facts.

And personally, I believe Shaq was more skilled than Wilt and had superior ball handling skills, footwork and more moves, but can I state it as a fact? No.


You will only believe what you want to believe.

You just described yourself perfectly.

[alexandreben]

Where did you get these back to back stats from?
Here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962_games.html

In 1961-62 season, Wilt Chamberlain played 13 back-to-back games, 8 back-to-back-to-back games, 2 back-to-back-to-back-to-back games, and one back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back game as following:

Wed, Jan 17, 1962 N St. Louis Hawks W 136 130 27 20 W 1 at Detroit, MI
Thu, Jan 18, 1962 Cincinnati Royals L 133 151 27 21 L 1
Fri, Jan 19, 1962 N Detroit Pistons W 136 125 28 21 W 1 at Boston, MA
Sat, Jan 20, 1962 Detroit Pistons W 123 107 29 21 W 2
Sun, Jan 21, 1962 N Syracuse Nationals W 139 132 30 21 W 3 at Utica, NY

[jlauber]

Here:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962_games.html

In 1961-62 season, Wilt Chamberlain played 13 back-to-back games, 8 back-to-back-to-back games, 2 back-to-back-to-back-to-back games, and one back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back game as following:

Wed, Jan 17, 1962 N St. Louis Hawks W 136 130 27 20 W 1 at Detroit, MI
Thu, Jan 18, 1962 Cincinnati Royals L 133 151 27 21 L 1
Fri, Jan 19, 1962 N Detroit Pistons W 136 125 28 21 W 1 at Boston, MA
Sat, Jan 20, 1962 Detroit Pistons W 123 107 29 21 W 2
Sun, Jan 21, 1962 N Syracuse Nationals W 139 132 30 21 W 3 at Utica, NY


A MINIMUM of 22 B2B games, with TEN back-to-back-to-back, TWO four-in-a-rows, and 1 FIVE consecutive game streak.

One more time...after ALL of that, he missed a TOTAL of 8 minutes and 33 seconds,...in the ENTIRE SEASON.

[PowerGlove]

most of the people on this board are probably not even old enough to even make comments about Hakeem. If all you have seen of Hakeem is youtube videos then you got no right to comment on Hakeem.

I hate ranking players by a number or whatever. I much rather a Tier system, and Hakeem is in that top tier of great centres of all time.

Been saying this for years and all the little kids wont listen.

[Heelcrazy2]

No. He is the most talented big men of all time. And Is top 3 center of all time IMO


I think this proves the point of the thread title.

[SinJackal]

kareem>wilt>russel>shaq>hakeem
in career achievement wise


Um, how does Kareem and Wilt have more career achievements than Russel when Russel was in the NBA finals nearly every single year of his career? He also has more rings than any other player in the NBA, as well as 5 MVP awards, and the highest RPG stat in the history of the NBA.

Not to mention he coached in the NBA and won titles as a coach, and fought against racism. Exactly how are Kareem and Wilt more accomplished than that? Bill Russel is by FAR the most accomplished NBA player ever. It's almost like you have no idea who Bill Russel was besides his per game stats.

[jlauber]

Um, how does Kareem and Wilt have more career achievements than Russel when Russel was in the NBA finals nearly every single year of his career? He also has more rings than any other player in the NBA, as well as 5 MVP awards, and the highest RPG stat in the history of the NBA.

Not to mention he coached in the NBA and won titles as a coach, and fought against racism. Exactly how are Kareem and Wilt more accomplished than that? Bill Russel is by FAR the most accomplished NBA player ever. It's almost like you have no idea who Bill Russel was besides his per game stats.

Not sure how the highest RPG stat ...Wilt holds the BULK of rebounding records...some against Russell BTW ( 55 rebounds in a regular season game, and 41 in a post-season game.) If you mean his post-season rebounding edge of 24.9 to 24.5 for Wilt...you are right. HOWEVER, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY H2H post-season series. And some were by HUGE margins (in the '67 ECF's, Wilt held a 32 rpg to 23 rpg margin.)

Having said that, though...you do make some very valid points here...most of which are completely ignored by several posters here.

Russell made his TEAM better, and his opposing TEAMs worse. He was the greatest "winner", and no one else will ever duplicate 11 rings in 13 years.

BTW, he could not care less if we believe Olajuwon, Shaq, Kareem, or Wilt as the greatest. His 11 rings are nearly as many as those four have...COMBINED (14.)

[zizozain]

great now we have 2 threads in 1st page about
overrated Hakeem Olajuwon :confusedshrug:

[ProfessorMurder]

great now we have 2 threads in 1st page about
overrated Hakeem Olajuwon :confusedshrug:

Too bad there's still 15 nutting all over Kobe's face.

[zizozain]

Too bad there's still 15 nutting all over Kobe's face.
over Kobe's face over MJ's face over Lebron's face
we offer all kinds in this forum

[ThaRegul8r]

People say "Bill Russell" and "11 rings" as though he was the only one responsible for winning them. Did Russell put the team on his back and carry them to their championships? I don't believe so... While he did provide the defensive anchor for his squads, other players stepped up offensively.

Skill-wise, Russell does not belong in the same category as Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, or even Sabonis. DRob was a much more skilled player.

Not that I'm hating on Russell, who was a great player, but he gets WAY too much credit for those championships. He was an important factor in his team's success but was not the overwhelming reason that they won.

Hunh. Try doing some research and see what Russell's teammates, his coach, and opponents said to a man. Evidently they all gave him too much credit, but you're able to see things clearly. :rolleyes:

[jlauber]

Hunh. Try doing some research and see what Russell's teammates, his coach, and opponents said to a man. Evidently they all gave him too much credit, but you're able to see things clearly. :rolleyes:

:applause:

[Yung D-Will]

Bump since we like to make threads like this

[SGK_81]

People that rate Hakeem above Shaq must change their dealer asap !

[ILLsmak]

That's basically it. A lot of people who have an agenda and a player they dislike enjoy overrating guys like Hakeem and Duncan to push them out of the top 10.

Hakeem is an amazing player. The only part I think is overrated about him is the fact that people act like he didn't have talent around him or that he made them into what they were.

On my all-time team, Hakeem would definitely be the starting PF.

-Smak

[momo]

Hakeem is the greatest center ever IMO

Jabbar just played in the league for a long ass period of time. he was ahead of my time but to me he didnt really have that much of a offensive game besides that boring sky hook ****. Hakeem had the sickest post game, he shoots the ball pretty well, amazing defender, ect ect.

Young kids are so cute.

[Yung D-Will]

boomz.

[OnceInADECADE]

i never seen Hakeem play live. But his numbers are nasty. And it looked like he got better when he got older

[Yung D-Will]

i never seen Hakeem play live. But his numbers are nasty. And it looked like he got better when he got older

Well. He's one of those players who had a late peak from what I heard.

Kind of think of Steve Nash.

[OnceInADECADE]

Well. He's one of those players who had a late peak from what I heard.

Kind of think of Steve Nash.

yeah

[PHILA]

As of late I have learned that he is the 5th best player in NBA history, superior to Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, & Magic Johnson. :banghead:

[OnceInADECADE]

As of late I have learned that he is the 5th best player in NBA history, superior to Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, & Magic Johnson. :banghead:

Wilt?

[PHILA]

Wilt?

Hakeem Olajuwon.

[PHILA]

Wilt and Russel would get their asses dusted today.

Today? They'd be the top big men by default.

[OnceInADECADE]

Today? They'd be the top big men by default.

not Bill but yes Wilt

[PHILA]

Russell's impact may not have been as great now because it seems teams barely shoot inside these days, plus the addition of the 3 second rule of the defensive end. However Russell was by some accounts the quickest player ever in NBA history with a terrific reaction jump. He also was gutsy and would make you work as he knew how to leverage his weight effectively (like Wes Unseld). He would probably bulk up to 240-250 now as opposed to 225-235 he likely played at.


Johnny Most recalls Russell's first meeting as a rookie with Neil Johnston of the Warriors. :applause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSxaufSPsIM

[EarlTheGoat]

I have him in the top-10 player of all time, in the same tier as Bird, Magic, Kobe and Duncan, and right behind the tier of Russell, Wilt and Shaq.

I think he deserves it, the guy has been the best Center of the 90s and probably second best (after Shaq) since Kareem Abdul Jabbar retired. Got 2 championships with below-average teammates (when compared to those of other all-time greats) and made impressive play-off runs in each of them. He seemed to play his best against the biggest rivals: he destroyed both Ewing and Robinson in 1994 and 1995 and then he outplayed Shaq in 1995, when nobody could handle O`Neal at the time.

Impressive at both ends of the floor, offensive and defensive, dynamic (probably the most dynamic center in history) and with a lot of quality post moves. Underrated? id say no.

Of course if you are going to say he`s at the same level than Jordan he is "overrated" but only biased homers or people like that would say so. He got some years in which he could compete with Jordan`s level, but overall, Michael is better both in longevity and career achievements.

[step_back]

What impressed me most about Hakeem was his ability to beat opponents with footwork. Something which I feel is greatly lacking in todays centers. He was also undersized at his position considering the amount of true 7ft centers in the league at that time.

For this reason I rate him highly, and the whole overrated/ underrated argument is non stop because people have a much different appreciation of certain players.

[the_wise_one]

Top 5 centers of all time.

[Papaya Petee]

I personally think Shaq is better then Hakeem, but the difference is minimal really. However, I believe Hakeem is a better player then Tim Duncan.

[White Chocolate]

He's not overrated. The only centers that are clearly above him are Kareem and Wilt. Even Russell isn't definitely above him. And Hakeem is arguably the most versatile defensive big man in NBA history.

[Papaya Petee]

He's not overrated. The only centers that are clearly above him are Kareem and Wilt. Even Russell isn't definitely above him. And Hakeem is arguably the most versatile defensive big man in NBA history.
Individually speaking Hakeem >>>>>> Russell. Accomplishment speaking Russell >>>>>> Hakeem. Take it as you wish.

[Pointguard]

Stop posting your fantasy numbers. The game is slower today and have more back to backs. He wouldn't be able to sustain 30 and 16. He wpildn't even get that much shot attempts.

Well this is an argument you are going to loose. They spent way more time at airports as there were no chartered flights. They played way more back to backs and sometimes played 5 games straight - and in 4 different cities. They had way crappier beds and no money for massueses. Had bad airconditioning and heating at games. You could piggie back on Wilt's back and karate chop over his hands. Wilt's endurance was off the hook. At 50 years old he ran a 50 mile marathon. He was freakish in that regards. His activity level to me is one of his most amazing thing ever in basketball. Over 160 games he averaged 47.5 points and 25 rebounds and likely 7 blocks and nearly 3 assist a game while barely sitting out and far worse conditions. In games that were much more up and down than now.

[Pointguard]

Here's Wilt sprinting and going all out to the point where he falls and his head still isn't at the rim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8#t=3m20s LOL, I'm sure you know that argument isn't legit. He wasn't qualifing for a long or high jump. He did what he set out to do.


And that's probably the closest I've seen his head to the rim. Now, Shaq coming out of LSU recorded a 36" max vertical at the 1992 pre-draft camp. Here you can see that with a standing vert, his head is damn near rim level. [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26oszd3z9Ns#t=0m33s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26oszd3z9Ns#t=0m33s[/URL

340 pound 28 year old Shaq, his shoulder isn't that far from rim level! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EefJHAWigvY#t=6m11s
Have YOU ever seen Wilt jump that high? If so, post the footage. ]
Just curious do you really think Shaq is in some facet or comparable measure to Wilt in jumping? Heck anytype of jumping? One foot, two foot, broad, standing, slow, fast, running, high or long? With limited footage of Wilt we know he way more explosive than Shaq. Shaq seems to not to like to jump. He's a sometime jumper. Height isn't going to be proved on video but we see Wilt ducking his head a lot because of the backboard, its dangerous beyond that so that's a useless point to prove during the game. But even in the hideous footage you posted of Wilt he had more spring in his legs than probably any center since (Maybe not Hakeem, who doesn't get enough credit for being the smartest guy of knowing when to leave his feet.)



You're telling me Wilt not only jumped higher than all of them, but a foot higher? Don't you think Dwight Howard can touch the top of the backboard??? He's that close with his left hand while multitasking with his right. Now Dwight is a leaper.


Except give Wilt a more realistic 40 mpg(which is the most any big man averaged in 2000). One of them was Kevin Garnett who is extremely durable and had to carry a team as much as any superstar.

Wilt's Warriors averaged 129.7 possessions per game, Shaq's Lakers averaged 93.3 possessions per game. Give Wilt the amount of FGA per possession and FTA per FGA in 40 mpg and he averages 30.7 ppg on 24 FGA. Give him the same percentage of his teams rebounds in 40 mpg and he averages 15.9 rpg and 1.8 apg

And no, it's not clear that he would have shot better. The league average was lower then because of all the quick shots perimeter players took as well as the inferior ball handling skills of perimeter players at the time and the lack of guards who attacked the basket the same way perimeter players do now. Wilt would still be posting up, like he did then except there would be less transition opportunities and....


And this isn't about what he would have averaged rather than putting his stats in perspective given the pace and minutes. I personally think he wouldn't be getting up 24 shots per game in 2000 or averaging 30. Even so, I'll admit that Wilt was a better rebounder than Shaq or Kareem, though the margin isn't as big as the initial stats suggest. Neither Shaq or Kareem really went out of their way to rebound. It was like something they hated to do on the job resume. Wilt was more eager and more fundamental..


Your other points are solidly made. I have a Wilt in today's thread coming soon. And maybe you will join that one.

[Manute for Ever!]

Your other points are solidly made. I have a Wilt in today's thread coming soon. And maybe you will join that one.

We don't really need yet another "Wilt in todays game" thread, there are almost as many of those as there is "Kobe vs. MJ" threads. It's almost impossible to post something on the topic that hasn't been said before, both possitive or negative. Might as well just bump an old thread.

[Maga_1]

I hate ranking players by a number or whatever. I much rather a Tier system, and Hakeem is in that top tier of great centres of all time.

THIS

[IGOTGAME]

time for this discussion to be brought up again.

[millwad]

time for this discussion to be brought up again.

Not really..

[jlauber]

Most OVER-RATED player on the ISH board. EIGHT FIRST-ROUND playoff exits. ONE MVP in 18 seasons.

BORDERLINE Top-10, AT BEST.

My god a nearly 40 year old Kareem, who could barely get 6 rpg, CRUSHED him with THREE 40+ point games in two seasons...and an average of 33 ppg on .634 shooting in FIVE H2H games in '86.

And how about this game...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206575


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

Hakeem couldn't even guard a WAY-OVER-THE-HILL Kareem.

[PHILA]

As of late I have learned that he is the 5th best player in NBA history, superior to Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, & Magic Johnson. :banghead:

..

And now he's 3rd all time. :lol

[nightprowler10]

I've always been a big Hakeem fan. I've always been amazed at his ability to raise his game during Ramadan (he'd fast everyday of the month). But yeah, he's not the GOAT center if anyone's saying that.