Michael Jordan Anti-clutch Log

[Fatal9]

We all know MJ is one of the clutchest players of all time. But what I am really interested in is to recall/note some of his anti-clutch moments, because you never really hear about them.

I'll start with some, feel free to continue. There are tons of incidents but I haven't really looked or tried to remember that hard. Just listing some for now that I remember.

Lets begin:

Oct 27, 1984 vs. Bucks, Jordan misses potential game tying jumper at the end of regulation. Bucks rebound his miss and time expires. Bulls lose 108-106.

Dec 14, 1984 vs. Nets, Jordan misses potential game tying jumper with 28 seconds left. Nets go on to win 111-109.

Nov 6, 1986 vs. Pistons - Jordan misses 2 FTs in the last three minutes of the game, and commits two costly turnovers. As a result, Bulls lose a close game to the Pistons.

Nov 26, 1986 vs. Denver - Jordan goes 0-4 on the last 1:30. Bulls lose a close one as Denver wins 109-107.

Dec 5, 1986 vs. Phoenix - Jordan has two shot attempts to send the game to overtime or win it outright, but fails to do so. He misses a shot with 1 second left as the Suns win 114-112.

Dec 31, 1986 vs. Warriors - Jordan misses a long game tying three point attempt at the buzzer.

Mar 26, 1987 vs. Nets: Jordan misses 2 consecutive FTs near with one minute left (as the Nets are up 107-103) and misses a potential game tying jumper at the buzzer. Bulls lose 109-107.

Game 4 vs. Cavs in 1989: In the game before "the shot", Jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game as well.

Nov 3, 1990 vs. Bullets: With 35 seconds left, Jordan misses a short jumper. Then on the ensuing possession he gets his layup blocked at the basket by Horace Grant's brother (who played for the Bullets). Bulls lose 103-102.

Nov 21 vs. Suns, 1990: Misses his last 5 shots in the fourth. Suns end up winning at the buzzer, 109-107.

Jan 23, 1991 vs. Nets: Jordan goes 1-4, and misses three crucial shots as Bulls lose to the Nets 99-95.

March 26, 1991 vs. Nets: misses two clutch free throws with a minute left, and the last shot. Bulls lose 109-107 as a result.

1991 NBA finals, Game 1: Jordan goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. Bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left, but Perkins would take advantage of Jordan's missed shots as Lakers won game 1.

March 2, 1992: Jordan fouls Jeff Malone on the last play of the game and then gets ejected as he can't control his emotions. Jazz win the game due to the freethrows as a result.

June 10, 1992 vs. Blazers (finals): Jordan goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter! Blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game.

Dec 17 1991 vs. Lakers: Bulls trying to come back in the 4th quarter, however Jordan made 0 shots in the fourth quarter and missed his last 10 shots. The most notable miss is him blowing a dunk on an open fast break that would have cut the Laker lead to 6. This and Jordan's poor fourth quarter performance ruined any chance of a comeback.

Game 1 vs. Knicks 1993: Jordan goes just 2 for his last 12 shot. Knicks pull away as Jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half.

Mar 11, 1993 vs. Heat: Jordan misses his last 4 shots and misses a simple floater with 2 seconds left which would have tied the game. Bulls lose 97-95.

1993 ECF vs. Knicks (game 6): Goes 0-7 in fourth quarter (Pippen bails Bulls out with clutch shots though).

Game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: Jordan's nightmare minute.

Game 4 vs. Jazz (1997): Jordan goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession as Stockton took the ball away from him. On the next play, Jordan would miss again on and as a result, the Jazz seal the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 3: Jordan misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. He would just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game.

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 4: Jordan misses game winning three pointer despite getting a clean look.


Oct 30, 2001 vs. Knicks: Misses potential game tying three pointer with 18 seconds left and commits two costly turnovers before this shot. Wizards lose 93-91.

Apr 12 vs. Hawks, 2003: misses potential gamewinner at buzzer. Wizards lose 101-100.


What's the point of this thread? Well, one to see that Jordan was human and did fail time and time again in crunchtime (he didn't have the scrutiny of the internet that players now do), and two, it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing Jordan fail at the end of games (the idea most people seem to have is Jordan probably suceeded like 80% of the time...). I think his fans will find these incidents interesting as well (I know I do!). Again, no one is debating the clutchness of Michael, it's impossible to given his record.

I think we can list hundreds on incidents, I'll keep updating. There are a lot I haven't listed yet but will soon.

[magnax1]

It happens to the best of them. He's still the most clutch player ever.

[Cyclone112]

Wow

[Fatal9]

It happens to the best of them. He's still the most clutch player ever.
Yup, which is why it's so interesting to see. When some posters here are going to see Jordan went scoreless in the last 10 minutes of a finals game, they are going to be shocked. I've noticed a lot of players lately (like Lebron, Wade, Kobe etc) get a lot of hate for not performing in the clutch, but you'll see as this thread progresses, even the greatest clutch performer failed tons of times in clutch moments.

[DonDadda59]

So Sad.

[DuMa]

he admits it himself on a famous commercial. so why act like this is something new or you uncovered some new secret? quite sad.

[Fatal9]

What are the Jordan fans of this board huffing and puffing about? No one is denying his clutchness. Are you not interested to see some of the incidents that aren't showcased in his latest DVD? :confusedshrug:

Like Duma said, Jordan even talks about this in his commercial. What this thread is doing is just getting a bit more specific.

[Cyclone112]

Maybe if we all just report his first post someone will finally ban him?

[DonDadda59]

What are the Jordan fans of this board huffing and puffing about? No one is denying his clutchness. Are you not interested to see some of the incidents that aren't showcased in his latest DVD? :confusedshrug:

Like Duma said, Jordan even talks about this in his commercial. What this thread is doing is just getting a bit more specific.

Oh, of course. That's what this thread is doing? :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

Maybe if we all just report his first post someone will finally ban him?

I say we have fun with this one. No need for snitching, unlike somebody's favorite player is known to do from time to time.

[HisJoeness]

Jan 23, 1991 vs. Nets: Jordan goes 1-4, and misses three crucial shots as Bulls lose to the Nets 99-95.
March 26, 1991 vs. Nets: misses two clutch free throws with a minute left, and the last shot. Bulls lose 109-107 as a result.


:oldlol: Who could forget the all-mighty Nets of the 90's.

[guy]

Hundreds? HAHAHAA. No one has said the guy is perfect. They've said he's the most clutch and significantly more clutch then some of the guy's he's compared to (Kobe, Lebron, etc.), which is completely true. And lol @ you actually looking for incidents. And missing a shot is not being "not clutch". And the Pacers game 4 was not a great look. It was under a second left, he had to double-pump the shot, and he was a few feet behind the 3-point line. And you say you don't have an agenda?

[magnax1]

Why does everyone want to ban fatal? You guys seem to be way to demanding on here, first you ban rocketgreatness who didn't seem to terrible and now you want to ban this guy? Maybe I just haven't seen the two post enough, but oh well. :confusedshrug:

[NuggetsFan]

This is the basketball equivalent of exploring the dark side of the moon (I make this reference to celebrate the moon landing btw). This sort of compelling research is something you ban posters over? Right....:oldlol:

And I can almost guarantee you, there will be a 100+ incidents by the time this thread is over. Looks like the Jordan fans aren't going to contribute so I have to do this all on my own.

Do what all on your own? Do you not think that people know Jordan failed in the clutch sometimes :confusedshrug:

You should just be banned for being a ****ing idiot :applause:

[DonDadda59]

Why does everyone want to ban fatal? You guys seem to be way to demanding on here, first you ban rocketgreatness who didn't seem to terrible and now you want to ban this guy? Maybe I just haven't seen the two post enough, but oh well. :confusedshrug:

I don't want him banned, I have a strict no snitching policy. Besides, the dude is hilarious. He STILL thinks he's fooling people after he's been so badly exposed on this site over and over again. He's a laughing stock. But since he brought this on himself...


I've noticed a lot of players lately (like Lebron, Wade, Kobe etc) get a lot of hate for not performing in the clutch

Now who is hating on players like Lebron for not being clutch? Hmmmmm...

From the thread 'The Shot' (Lebron's game winner against ORL):


Lebron ISN'T clutch though. He made one shot. He was horrible in the fourth, going 1-5 and 3 turnovers. There's a reason the Magic took the lead near the end. He was quiet in the fourth last game too, just let the Magic take over and steal a game.



You do realize Lebron's play in the fourth quarter was the reason Orlando took the lead in the first place, right? He then made one of the worst defended catch-and-shoot jumpers I've ever seen in the playoffs.

Interesting.

[magnax1]

I don't want him banned, I have a strict no snitching policy. Besides, the dude is hilarious. He STILL thinks he's fooling people after he's been so badly exposed on this site over and over again. He's a laughing stock. But since he brought this on himself...




Interesting.
Is fatal some sort of Anti Jordan, anti Lebron or Pro Pippen Fanatic (judging by his avatar)?

[TheAnchorman]

Jesus Christ, not this again.

[rosonviyavong]

:oldlol: Who could forget the all-mighty Nets of the 90's.
pETROO!!!

[juju151111]

Is fatal some sort of Anti Jordan, anti Lebron or Pro Pippen Fanatic (judging by his avatar)?
Nope he is a fake MJ fan. He pretends to like Mj to come off has non bias, but bashes him 98% of the time. He runs from threads he getting owned and exposed in. Thats pretty much Fatal bio.

[Harison]

No comments :banghead:

[DonDadda59]

Is fatal some sort of Anti Jordan, anti Lebron or Pro Pippen Fanatic (judging by his avatar)?

He's a big Jordan and Bird fan, and he appreciates Scottie Pippen. Depending on the time of day and what he ate, he's either a Lebron, Brandon Roy, or DWade fan.

He's indifferent to Kobe Bryant.

[magnax1]

Nope he is a fake MJ fan. He pretends to like Mj to come off has non bias, but bashes him 98% of the time. He runs from threads he getting owned and exposed in. Thats pretty much Fatal bio.
Hmmmm, thats pretty original for a troll, I'd have to give him his props for not just being a Kobe nutt hugger, or Lebron hatter. Though its still annoying.

[chitownsfinest]

Jordan had anti clutch moments, but a lot of those games you listed came in series where he came through in the clutch more then he didn't come through. In the 89 series, we all know what he did so no point going there. In the 93 series, he scored 17 straight points in the 3rd/4th quarter of game 5 with the Bulls struggling to score and matched Ewing shot for shot and assisted on the game winner. In game 4 which was a close game for the most part, he scored 27 in the second half and 9 in the 4th. In the 97 series against Utah (one of his most clutchest series), he hit two game winners (game 1 and 5), assisted on a game winner in game 6, and averaged over 10 ppg in the 4th quarters of those games. In game 1 of the 98 series against Indy, with the Bulls struggling to score in the first half, he had 20 + points in the second half (Pippen played clutch D as well) to put the game away. In game 2, he again scored 20+ in the second half in a extremely close game including three straight baskets in the final two minutes of the game to put the game away after Indy tied it from a Reggie Miller three pointer. In game 6 of that series, he scored ten points in the last quarter in a close game but Travis Best came through in the clutch as well. In game 7 of that series, he locked down Reggie Miller to 0 field goals in the 4th quarter after Reggie was torching Harper in the first three quarters (Harp played great D on Reggie for most of that series though), pulled down a clutch offensive rebound of a missed ree throw, and bunch of other little things (clutch assist to Longley, and 1 dunk in the 4th quarter, winning a jump ball against a taller player, and getting to the line). In the 92 series against Portland, he scored 10-12 points in the 4th quarter of game 6 of that series to close it out, holds Drexler to 1-6 shooting in his last 6 shots in game 3 of that series, and hits some clutch baskets in the 4th quarter of that game 3 as well.

I have to re-visit that 95 series and the other games you listed were regular season games. Most of those games came in series where MJ came through in the clutch more often then he didn't.

[Cyclone112]

Is fatal some sort of Anti Jordan, anti Lebron or Pro Pippen Fanatic (judging by his avatar)?

Yes, there are at least 20 threads that he has started all done to directly or indirectly bash Jordan. He used to constantly build up Kobe but has since taken a break and focused solely on bashing MJ. That 20 thread estimate isn't even including the numerous other threads he jumps in to start bashing MJ usually threads created by Roundball_Rock. If this was any other forum that actually has moderators in place with proper power he would have been banned ages ago.

He of course bashes LBJ any chance he gets because of his obsession with Kobe. MJ is out of the league so he can spout off any nonsense he wants but LBJ is playing at the same time so he has to bash him to ensure Kobe isn't looked at as inferior. As far as Pippen goes he constantly tries to overrate him thus attempting to take away from Jordan's accomplishments. He also states on numerous occasions that Jordan is the luckiest player of all time.

This is what we think of Fatal9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138337

[chitownsfinest]

BTW, expect no one to update on your "list".

[Butters]

The hate,its so strong.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

yup, MJ blew it many many times. But that is to be expected.

as for "clutchness", I would take Bird over MJ.

[magnax1]

Yes, there are at least 20 threads that he has started all done to directly or indirectly bash Jordan. He used to constantly build up Kobe but has since taken a break and focused solely on bashing MJ. That 20 thread estimate isn't even including the numerous other threads he jumps in to start bashing MJ usually threads created by Roundball_Rock. If this was any other forum that actually has moderators in place with proper power he would have been banned ages ago.

He of course bashes LBJ any chance he gets because of his obsession with Kobe. MJ is out of the league so he can spout off any nonsense he wants but LBJ is playing at the same time so he has to bash him to ensure Kobe isn't looked at as inferior. As far as Pippen goes he constantly tries to overrate him thus attempting to take away from Jordan's accomplishments. He also states on numerous occasions that Jordan is the luckiest player of all time.

This is what we think of Fatal9: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138337
Holy crap! Cantstop has been banned! What a happy day! I just noticed its said it by his avatar on your Fatal9 apreciation thread.

[juju151111]

Hmmmm, thats pretty original for a troll, I'd have to give him his props for not just being a Kobe nutt hugger, or Lebron hatter. Though its still annoying.
Agreed, i tell him that all the time. He one of the best trolls because he has some decent posters actually thinking he likes MJ. He made one pro MJ thread ever.

[Cyclone112]

Holy crap! Cantstop has been banned! What a happy day! I just noticed its said it by his avatar on your Fatal9 apreciation thread.

LOL, about time. I wonder what made them finally ban him. God that kid was annoying.

[chitownsfinest]

He's a big Jordan and Bird fan, and he appreciates Scottie Pippen. Depending on the time of day and what he ate, he's either a Lebron, Brandon Roy, or DWade fan.

He's indifferent to Kobe Bryant.
:roll:

[Fatal9]

Can my groupies please stop posting useless things that have nothing to do with the thread. Yea, I hate Jordan so much I think he is the clutchest player ever. Give me a break...

I personally think it's pretty interesting seeing Jordan not come through in the clutch for once, just because of the image he has. Most posters here seem to have been fed only his clutch stories/moments so I don't expect them to contribute.

:oldlol: at this repeated notion I'm a hardcore KB fan. Sometimes I purposely post pro-Kobe posts because I find that idea hilarious and I can see it annoys some posters here. Do I like him and think he is probably the most entertaining player in the league right now? Yes. Do I think he is a hack, a choker, who has a horrible shot selection? Also yes. I remember Laker fans accusing me of being a Laker/Kobe hater earlier on, now I'm apparently running his fan club :oldlol:.

[Knoe Itawl]

Can my groupies please stop posting useless things that have nothing to do with the thread. Yea, I hate Jordan so much I think he is the clutchest player ever. Give me a break...

I personally think it's pretty interesting seeing Jordan not come through in the clutch for once, just because of the image he has. Most posters here seem to have been fed only his clutch stories/moments so I don't expect them to contribute.

:oldlol: at this repeated notion I'm a hardcore KB fan. Sometimes I purposely post pro-Kobe posts because I find that idea hilarious and I can see it annoys some posters here. Do I like him and think he is probably the most entertaining player in the league right now? Yes. Do I think he is a hack, a choker, who has a horrible shot selection? Also yes. I remember Laker fans accusing me of being a Laker/Kobe hater earlier on, now I'm apparently running his fan club :oldlol:.

No one buys this and as long as you post here, people are going to derail your threads unless you stop being a jerkoff. Either accept it don't, but quit coming in here with the "Will you Jordan Jockers stop poisoning my threads" stuff. Are you too stupid to see that it keeps happening to you, and no matter how many times you ask people not too, they're not listening?

[juju151111]

Can my groupies please stop posting useless things that have nothing to do with the thread. Yea, I hate Jordan so much I think he is the clutchest player ever. Give me a break...

I personally think it's pretty interesting seeing Jordan not come through in the clutch for once, just because of the image he has. Most posters here seem to have been fed only his clutch stories/moments so I don't expect them to contribute.

:oldlol: at this repeated notion I'm a hardcore KB fan. Sometimes I purposely post pro-Kobe posts because I find that idea hilarious and I can see it annoys some posters here. Do I like him and think he is probably the most entertaining player in the league right now? Yes. Do I think he is a hack, a choker, who has a horrible shot selection? Also yes. I remember Laker fans accusing me of being a Laker/Kobe hater earlier on, now I'm apparently running his fan club :oldlol:.
Fatal how much time do you have to get exposed to get a hint. Nobody believes your crap.

[Game]

1) CantStop is temp banned. His name will be unbanned in two days

2) CantStop will never leave

3) LOL @ my groupies celebrating for no reason.

Fatal9 prodiving the ether in this thread.

[Dasher]

:oldlol: Who could forget the all-mighty Nets of the 90's.Those Derrick Coleman, Drazen, Kenny Anderson Nets had the chance to be something really special.

[Yung D-Will]

Hundreds? HAHAHAA. No one has said the guy is perfect. They've said he's the most clutch and significantly more clutch then some of the guy's he's compared to (Kobe, Lebron, etc.), which is completely true. And lol @ you actually looking for incidents. And missing a shot is not being "not clutch". And the Pacers game 4 was not a great look. It was under a second left, he had to double-pump the shot, and he was a few feet behind the 3-point line. And you say you don't have an agenda?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97818&page=2

There are actually alot of people who did surprisingly.

[DonDadda59]

Remember in the non-zone, isolation era when Jordan shot 3 airballs in the clutch against a weak Utah team? Oh wait :oldlol:

And clutchest isn't a word, just an FYI.

[Fatal9]

Jordan fans mean business eh :oldlol:. Hilarious stuff. He's a basketball player, not your dad. Cataloging stories that you never hear about is interesting to me, instead of the boring thread where someone posts a clip of Jordan hitting a clutch shot (that everyone has seen a million times) and the predictable Jordan fans of ISH gather around for an e-circle jerk.

Funny thing is no one is calling Jordan unclutch or even anything along those lines. I'm just trying to gather/record some thing I have yet to see on the internet (a good list of moments where he didn't deliver).

[BallersTalk]

The list for Kobe would be at least 15 times longer.

[juju151111]

1) CantStop is temp banned. His name will be unbanned in two days

2) CantStop will never leave

3) LOL @ my groupies celebrating for no reason.

Fatal9 prodiving the ether in this thread.
Here is a true troll. He doesn't pretend to like someone and tells what he thinks.

[magnax1]

1) CantStop is temp banned. His name will be unbanned in two days

2) CantStop will never leave

3) LOL @ my groupies celebrating for no reason.

Fatal9 prodiving the ether in this thread.
ZOmg! I think you are cantstop, the evil will never leave us, but we can always ignore it. :mad:

[LA_Showtime]

People need to relax. Fatal doesn't have an agenda (this time), he simply finds the stats interesting.

It's true, today's players are held to a standard that players before them were not.

BTW, LOL when people say Kobe/LeBron fans are worse. Jordan fans take the cake.

[Fatal9]

The list for Kobe would be at least 15 times longer.
Probably. That's related to this thread how? :confusedshrug:

[Game]

ZOmg! I think you are cantstop, the evil will never leave us, but we can always ignore it. :mad:

Ignore me than dikkhead.

[DonDadda59]

People need to relax. Fatal doesn't have an agenda (this time), he simply finds the stats interesting.

It's true, today's players are held to a standard that players before them were not.

BTW, LOL when people say Kobe/LeBron fans are worse. Jordan fans take the cake.

From what I've seen, you're a good poster. But you can't see the agenda? Really?

I mean it's so blatant this time around, even though he only has one true agenda guiding all of his posts no matter what angle he tries to do it from. This guy spends all of his time perusing old game stats and footage looking for one thing, anything that he thinks fits his failed crusade.

[dr8ked]

http://3putt.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/ehlo.jpg


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/9/9f/Jordan_last_shot_1999.jpg


http://img2.www.spoki.lv/upload/articles/48/48347/images/top-5-nba-legendary-3.jpg

[Knoe Itawl]

From what I've seen, you're a good poster. But you can't see the agenda? Really?

I mean it's so blatant this time around, even though he only has one true agenda guiding all of his posts no matter what angle he tries to do it from. This guy spends all of his time perusing old game stats and footage looking for one thing, anything that he thinks fits his failed crusade.

Lakers Showtime is one of like three or four Lakers fans I can tolerate on here, but ultimately he's still a Lakers fan and has the biases that entails. Fatal is clear as day to those who understand what he's trying to do. Fatal actually knows that, his purpose is to try to infect those people who he thinks will buy is routine. He knows going with the Alpha Wolf, Can't Stop brand of idiocy won't cut it, so he hopes that by saying he's a big Jordan fan and posting manipulated data, he'll convince the naive that "Hey, that Jordan guy was great but not as great as reported, and hey that Kobe is actually closer to him than people want to admit".

[gotbacon23]

he missed the potential game winning 3 in game 5 in 1998. ended up that it didn't matter anyway cause he hit the game winning shot in game 6 two nights later. pippen and jordan both didn't play well in that game 5; jordan was 9 for 26 and missed the game winning 3, pippen as 2 for 16 shooting (0-7 threes) and fouled out. hell, rodman only grabbed 3 rebounds that game. The bulls were in that game cause of Kukoc (11 for 13, 30 points, hit a RIDICULOUS 3 pointer with 5.5 seconds left to put the bulls within one). it wasn't so much "un-clutch" by jordan though cause it was a ridiculously tough shot- there was only 0.8 left on the clock- but he did not play well that game.

this video has kukoc's three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEKJbxnlYzU&feature=related

and this one has jordan's miss:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0akzdlW096I&NR=1

but anybody who says he choked for missing that is a fool... that shot was basically impossible.

[LA_Showtime]

From what I've seen, you're a good poster. But you can't see the agenda? Really?

I mean it's so blatant this time around, even though he only has one true agenda guiding all of his posts no matter what angle he tries to do it from. This guy spends all of his time perusing old game stats and footage looking for one thing, anything that he thinks fits his failed crusade.

Yeah, Fatal usually has an agenda.

This thread doesn't bother me though. He's stated that Jordan's the best of all time, but he wants people to know MJ was human like all of the other stars.

[chitownsfinest]

Jordan had anti clutch moments, but a lot of those games you listed came in series where he came through in the clutch more then he didn't come through. In the 89 series, we all know what he did so no point going there. In the 93 series, he scored 17 straight points in the 3rd/4th quarter of game 5 with the Bulls struggling to score and matched Ewing shot for shot and assisted on the game winner. In game 4 which was a close game for the most part, he scored 27 in the second half and 9 in the 4th. In the 97 series against Utah (one of his most clutchest series), he hit two game winners (game 1 and 5), assisted on a game winner in game 6, and averaged over 10 ppg in the 4th quarters of those games. In game 1 of the 98 series against Indy, with the Bulls struggling to score in the first half, he had 20 + points in the second half (Pippen played clutch D as well) to put the game away. In game 2, he again scored 20+ in the second half in a extremely close game including three straight baskets in the final two minutes of the game to put the game away after Indy tied it from a Reggie Miller three pointer. In game 6 of that series, he scored ten points in the last quarter in a close game but Travis Best came through in the clutch as well. In game 7 of that series, he locked down Reggie Miller to 0 field goals in the 4th quarter after Reggie was torching Harper in the first three quarters (Harp played great D on Reggie for most of that series though), pulled down a clutch offensive rebound of a missed ree throw, and bunch of other little things (clutch assist to Longley, and 1 dunk in the 4th quarter, winning a jump ball against a taller player, and getting to the line). In the 92 series against Portland, he scored 10-12 points in the 4th quarter of game 6 of that series to close it out, holds Drexler to 1-6 shooting in his last 6 shots in game 3 of that series, and hits some clutch baskets in the 4th quarter of that game 3 as well.

I have to re-visit that 95 series and the other games you listed were regular season games. Most of those games came in series where MJ came through in the clutch more often then he didn't.

Still waiting for a response to this.

Like the poster above me just stated, there is more to just looking at a couple of missed shots in crunch time to determine if the player came through the clutch or not. There can be other factors such as whether the players teammates came through as well, or maybe the team had only been in the game because the said player who didn't come through in crunch time was playing great for most the game.

[LA_Showtime]

Lakers Showtime is one of like three or four Lakers fans I can tolerate on here, but ultimately he's still a Lakers fan and has the biases that entails. Fatal is clear as day to those who understand what he's trying to do. Fatal actually knows that, his purpose is to try to infect those people who he thinks will buy is routine. He knows going with the Alpha Wolf, Can't Stop brand of idiocy won't cut it, so he hopes that by saying he's a big Jordan fan and posting manipulated data, he'll convince the naive that "Hey, that Jordan guy was great but not as great as reported, and hey that Kobe is actually closer to him than people want to admit".

I pretty much agree with you. If it was a Laker Fatal was talking about, I would probably have a problem with this thread.:oldlol:

[juju151111]

I pretty much agree with you. If it was a Laker Fatal was talking about, I would probably have a problem with this thread.:oldlol:
Exactly, if this was kobe you would see only LA avatars responding. The only person Fatal actually fools is roundball/brans.

[LA_Showtime]

Exactly, if this was kobe you would see only LA avatars responding. The only person Fatal actually fools is roundball/brans.

Yeah, I didn't see all of Jordan's years in the NBA. So for me, seeing some of his failures fascinates me.

If Jordan was in today's league, would people talk about his failures to try and downplay his greatness or would he be even more popular than he was in the late '80s early '90s? Hmmmmm...

[lbj23clutch]

Just when i though fatal was done with this whole ****. :confusedshrug:

[Fatal9]

Still waiting for a response to this.
What do you want? Did I say he wasn't clutch in most of those series? I'm looking at this from a game by game basis. I've didn't even use the word "choke" (because I don't think Jordan ever really did) just curious to see the # of games where he didn't come through. I'm estimating by the end of this thread we'll have a 100+ incidents, which might surprise some people. This is what made Jordan so clutch, he screws up here and there but in the end he is beating you any which way.

I love how in Jordan's case a long three pointer at the end of regulation shouldn't count but in Kobe's case they don't hesitate to post his FG% at the buzzer (when good chunk of those shots are exactly those long threes with a couple of seconds left). This is the double standard I'm a bit annoyed with.

[lolwut]

oh yeah and remember that time his team ended up losing in the finals?


oh.

nvm.

[BallersTalk]

What do you want? Did I say he wasn't clutch in most of those series? I'm looking at this from a game by game basis. I've didn't even use the word "choke" (because I don't think Jordan ever really did) just curious to see the # of games where he didn't come through. I'm estimating by the end of this thread we'll have a 100+ incidents, which might surprise some people. This is what made Jordan so clutch, he screws up here and there but in the end he is beating you any which way.

I love how in Jordan's case a long three pointer at the end of regulation shouldn't count but in Kobe's case they don't hesitate to post his FG% at the buzzer (when good chunk of those shots are exactly those long threes with a couple of seconds left). This is the double standard I'm a bit annoyed with.
Fatal9 never comes out and says what he really wants to say or what he really wants people to believe.
He wants people to put Kobe on the same pedestal as Jordan.

[juju151111]

Yeah, I didn't see all of Jordan's years in the NBA. So for me, seeing some of his failures fascinates me.

If Jordan was in today's league, would people talk about his failures to try and downplay his greatness or would he be even more popular than he was in the late '80s early '90s? Hmmmmm...
He would be on Kobe/shaq popular level if he played today. That means you don't have to watch BB to know who he is. LOL People taslked about his failures back then too. Read articles from 86-90 when he only won MVPs and stuff. They were ripping him and saying a leading scorer can't win crap, that he not a winner, and he just flashy. After he won in 1991 they pretty much stopped. They started again when the bulls lose to Magic and articles and mags started saying Penny was better then MJ.:lol

[NBASTATMAN]

We all know MJ is the clutchest or at the very least second clutchest (behind Bird) player of all time. But what I am really interested in is to recall/note some of his anti-clutch moments, because you never really hear about them.

I'll start with some, feel free to continue. There are tons of incidents but I haven't really looked or tried to remember that hard. Just listing some for now that I remember.

Lets begin:

Game 4 vs. Cavs in 1989: In the game before "the shot", Jordan missed a last second shot in overtime and missed a crucial freethrow near the end of the game as well.
Jan 23, 1991 vs. Nets: Jordan goes 1-4, and misses three crucial shots as Bulls lose to the Nets 99-95.
March 26, 1991 vs. Nets: misses two clutch free throws with a minute left, and the last shot. Bulls lose 109-107 as a result.
March 2, 1992: Jordan fouls Jeff Malone on the last play of the game and then gets ejected as he can't control his emotions. Jazz win the game due to the freethrows as a result.
June 10, 1992 vs. Blazers (finals): Jordan goes scoreless for the last 10 minutes of the fourth quarter! Blazers tie the series 2-2 after winning a close game.
1993 ECF vs. Knicks (game 6): Goes 0-7 in fourth quarter (Pippen bails Bulls out with clutch shots though).
Game 1 of 1995 series vs. Magic: Jordan's nightmare minute.
Game 4 vs. Jazz (1997): Jordan goes 1-3 in the closing minutes, and turns the ball over on a crucial possession as Stockton took the ball away from him. On the next play, Jordan would miss again on and as a result, the Jazz seal the game.
1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 3: Jordan misses crucial FT and the last shot to eliminate any chance of comeback. He would just hit one shot in the last 7 minutes of the game.
1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 4: Jordan misses game winning three pointer despite getting a clean look.


What's the point of this thread? Well, one to see that Jordan was human and did fail time and time again in crunchtime (he didn't have the scrutiny of the internet that players now do), and two, it's just interesting and almost bizzare seeing Jordan fail at the end of games (the idea most people seem to have is Jordan probably suceeded like 80% of the time...). I think his fans will find these incidents interesting as well (I know I do!). Again, no one is debating the clutchness of Michael, it's impossible to given his record.

I think we can list hundreds on incidents, I'll keep updating. There are a lot I haven't listed yet but will soon.



Wow Mj is human.. I didn't know that.... Still no other player is even close to this guy when it comes to being clutch... NO OTHER PLAYER.... I can make a much bigger list of choke jobs on other players... Mj shot close to 50 percent on game winning shots... No other player is close..........GREAT POST...

[chitownsfinest]

What do you want? Did I say he wasn't clutch in most of those series? I'm looking at this from a game by game basis. I've didn't even use the word "choke" (because I don't think Jordan ever really did) just curious to see the # of games where he didn't come through. I'm estimating by the end of this thread we'll have a 100+ incidents, which might surprise some people. This is what made Jordan so clutch, he screws up here and there but in the end he is beating you any which way.

I love how in Jordan's case a long three pointer at the end of regulation shouldn't count but in Kobe's case they don't hesitate to post his FG% at the buzzer (when good chunk of those shots are exactly those long threes with a couple of seconds left). This is the double standard I'm a bit annoyed with.
You never put what you wrote in your first paragraph in your original post, so it kinda moot to say right now. Also, you claim you are mad at how today's players un clutch moments, but DonDadda exposed you on a earlier post when he quoted actual posts where you bring up Lebron as unclutch. I have also seen various other posts of yours where you bring up moments of Lebron being unclutch. Double standard much?

[NBASTATMAN]

Lakers Showtime is one of like three or four Lakers fans I can tolerate on here, but ultimately he's still a Lakers fan and has the biases that entails. Fatal is clear as day to those who understand what he's trying to do. Fatal actually knows that, his purpose is to try to infect those people who he thinks will buy is routine. He knows going with the Alpha Wolf, Can't Stop brand of idiocy won't cut it, so he hopes that by saying he's a big Jordan fan and posting manipulated data, he'll convince the naive that "Hey, that Jordan guy was great but not as great as reported, and hey that Kobe is actually closer to him than people want to admit".


Good post but even Fatal knows the truth... MJ IS THE BEST AND has the best PER ever... :applause: EVEN VATOS AND ESSAYS NO THE TRUTH... :roll:

[gotbacon23]

He would be on Kobe/shaq popular level if he played today. That means you don't have to watch BB to know who he is. LOL People taslked about his failures back then too. Read articles from 86-90 when he only won MVPs and stuff. They were ripping him and saying a leading scorer can't win crap, that he not a winner, and he just flashy. After he won in 1991 they pretty much stopped. They started again when the bulls lose to Magic and articles and mags started saying Penny was better then MJ.:lol

i still have an ESPN basketball preview magazine that says "WHO'S BEST?" and it has a picture of Hakeem and a picture of Jordan, prior to the start of the '95-96 season. hakeem is a legend and was coming off of 2 rings while Jordan was getting ready to play his first full season back from striking out for the birmingham barons. but the events of that season and the following 2 seasons kinda put that one to bed pretty quickly.

[nnn123]

:roll:
Everyone should just give Fatal what he wants and post one moment u recall of Jordan being anti-clutch.
I'm sure it would help him sleep at night, pondering over Jordan's imperfections.
I'll think about it and post some

[Fatal9]

Good post but even Fatal knows the truth... MJ IS THE BEST AND has the best PER ever... :applause: EVEN VATOS AND ESSAYS NO THE TRUTH... :roll:
Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).

There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.

[lbj23clutch]

Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).
There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.
LMAO I think you got mixed up with Kobe Stans:oldlol:

[Dave3]

Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).

There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.
That 15% difference in pace makes the difference that's adjusted for in PER, and that's why Jordan's is higher no?

[Fatal9]

That 15% difference in pace makes the difference that's adjusted for in PER, and that's why Jordan's is higher no?
The difference in pace would have little to no effect on Kareem's scoring numbers (half the time he didn't even cross the half court line when Oscar or someone else would push the ball). In a slower pace, you usually have a more structured offense and the superstar as a result ends up getting just as many touches, if not more (current Cavs system is a good example). PER is a flawed and BS statistic. The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor). PER tells me Wade had the greatest finals performance ever, which is a joke considering it probably wasn't even top 15 by my count. It's a useless statistic that is used by ignorant fans. Also, Kareem's 4-5 blocks in his peak season also don't go towards "PER". Using PER to supposedly end an argument is an excellent way to show you know d!ck all.

[Dave3]

The difference in pace would have little to no effect on Kareem's scoring numbers (half the time he didn't even cross the half court line when Oscar or someone else would push the ball). In a slower pace, you usually have a more structured offense and the superstar as a result ends up getting just as many touches, if not more (current Cavs system is a good example). PER is a flawed and BS statistic. The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor). PER tells me Wade had the greatest finals performance ever, which is a joke considering it probably wasn't even top 15 by my count. It's a useless statistic that is used by ignorant fans. Also, Kareem's 4-5 blocks in his peak season also don't go towards "PER". Using PER to supposedly end an argument is an excellent way to show you know d!ck all.
1. You think there are 15 better performances than Wades' in the finals??
2. I didn't watch Karim play so I don't know how the pace affected him whether it favoured or not so I won't comment, but I think there has to be more to it than you explained
3. So PER is useful for comparing players in the same generation then?

[Fatal9]

1. You think there are 15 better performances than Wades' in the finals??
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136524 (I'm such a hater that Jordan is #1 on my list :oldlol:)

[BallersTalk]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136524 (I'm such a hater that Jordan is #1 on my list :oldlol:)
We're not all teenagers here. Most of us see right through the act. You use that to somehow justify your opinions and give yourself credibility in your desperate attempt to brainwash kids into thinking the way you think. It's pathetic how far Kobe fans are determined to go. Nobody says Jordan's untouchable. Hell, LeBron might reach him. But KOBE WILL NOT. That's a fact. Kobe will not enter the Immortal 6. Yes, you have permission to kill yourself now that you know this fact about your idol.

[Fatal9]

Some more additions:

Nov 6, 1986 vs. Pistons - Jordan misses 2 FTs in the last three minutes of the game, and commits two costly turnovers. As a result, Bulls lose a close game to the Pistons.

Nov 26, 1986 vs. Denver - Jordan goes 0-4 on the last 1:30. Bulls lose a close one as Denver wins 109-107.

Dec 5, 1986 vs. Phoenix - Jordan has two shot attempts to send the game to overtime or win it outright, but fails to do so. He misses a shot with 1 second left as the Suns win 114-112.

Dec 31, 1986 vs. Warriors - Jordan misses a long game tying three point attempt at the buzzer.

Literally finding 3-4 cases every month.

I think I'll revise my estimate of 100 unclutch moments to about 200 (about 15-20% of the games he played in!).

[guy]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97818&page=2

There are actually alot of people who did surprisingly.

Saying he doesn't have a weakness and saying he's perfect is completely different. His 3 point shooting was not a weakness. He doesn't really have a weakness.

[juju151111]

Some more additions:

Nov 6, 1986 vs. Pistons - Jordan misses 2 FTs in the last three minutes of the game, and commits two costly turnovers. As a result, Bulls lose a close game to the Pistons.

Nov 26, 1986 vs. Denver - Jordan goes 0-4 on the last 1:30. Bulls lose a close one as Denver wins 109-107.

Dec 5, 1986 vs. Phoenix - Jordan has two shot attempts to send the game to overtime or win it outright, but fails to do so. He misses a shot with 1 second left as the Suns win 114-112.

Dec 31, 1986 vs. Warriors - Jordan misses a long game tying three point attempt at the buzzer.

Literally finding 3-4 cases every month.

I think I'll revise my estimate of 100 unclutch moments to about 200 (about 15-20% of the games he played in!).
Where are you getting this info from??

[juju151111]

Where are you getting this info from??
:confusedshrug:

[Fatal9]

How could I forget him missing his last 2 shots in game 1 of NBA finals? Great performance overall (the greatest ever for a full finals series imo) but those two missed shots cost the Bulls that game.

1991 NBA finals, Game 1: Jordan goes 0-2 in the last 30 seconds. Bulls had the lead with 30 seconds left, but Perkins would take advantage of Jordan's missed shots as Lakers won game 1.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Where are you getting this info from??

That's what I'd like to know too, since many of these games aren't online. If it's from his personal collection, I'd like to see some corroboration/video.

[Fatal9]

If we get unclutch moments in about 20% of all games Jordan played in...I will be shocked. Even I didn't expect that much, maybe 5-10%, but I think it will be closer to 15-20%. Crazy.

[Floppy]

It's actually funny how short that list. I thought it'd be way longer.

Thanks for increasing my appreciation for the GOAT even more.

repped

:oldlol:

[guy]

Where are you getting this info from??

I'm guessing you would have to look really really hard to get this information if its even available. So for anyone to go through that crazy amount of effort clearly shows an agenda.

[juju151111]

I'm guessing you would have to look really really hard to get this information if its even available. So for anyone to go through that crazy amount of effort clearly shows an agenda.
I didn't relize they had those gamelogs for who took the last 3 shots back in 86. I want to see what website this is from. Which he isn't answering.

[Fatal9]

It's actually funny how short that list. I thought it'd be way longer.

Thanks for increasing my appreciation for the GOAT even more.

repped

:oldlol:
It is nowhere near complete. I am obviously not going to find all his anti-clutch moments within an hour of starting this thread. The list will have at least 100+ entries in the end (probably closer to 200 I'd say), which is a lot. All this thread is going to show is to stop holding current stars to an unrealistic standard in the clutch just because they can be scrutinized more easily due to the internet age. If Jordan had these moments in 15-20% of all games he played (which is a crazy amount of anti-clutch moments), then it should put all this anti-clutch nonsense in proper context.

[guy]

I didn't relize they had those gamelogs for who took the last 3 shots back in 86. I want to see what website this is from. Which he isn't answering.

Well I was responding with the assumption that he isn't lying, which I think is probably not a good assumption to make.

[lbj23clutch]

It is nowhere near complete. I am obviously not going to find all his anti-clutch moments within an hour of starting this thread. The list will have at least 100+ entries in the end (probably closer to 200 I'd say), which is a lot. All this thread is going to show is to stop holding current stars to an unrealistic standard in the clutch just because they can be scrutinized more easily due to the internet age. If Jordan had these moments in 15-20% of all games he played (which is a crazy amount of anti-clutch moments), then it should put all this anti-clutch nonsense in proper context.
Wow your pathetic, of course MJ had some bad moments no one is denying it. Why don't you show us your beloved Kobe's anti clutch moments, he shoots below 30% on game winning attempts, while MJ shot nearly 50% on his gamewinning attempts.

[RaininThrees]

he admits it himself on a famous commercial. so why act like this is something new or you uncovered some new secret? quite sad.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45mMioJ5szc

[AirJordan23]

1998 ECF vs. Pacers, Game 4: Jordan misses game winning three pointer despite getting a clean look.

Also, :oldlol: at this being unclutch. There were 7 tenths of a second left on the shot clock and when Jordan got the ball, he had to change his shot in mid air and he almost banked it in. Like it, literally spinned out. But, somehow that's unclutch right. Jordan choked on the spot and under pressure, right?

[Killer_Instinct]

Never talk about Jordan on ISH, unless it's about him being perfect. Everyone else is fair game.

[Godfather]

Imagine if we made a a clutch log :eek:

There wouldn't be a thread big enough.

[wang4three]

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

[Godfather]

The fact that he has 0 links makes me suspect he is making up a majority of these for the sake of his agenda.

WTB link.

[Fatal9]

I've got another strong addition to the anti-clutch log for Jordan:

Dec 14, 1984 vs. Nets, Jordan misses potential game tying jumper with 28 seconds left. Nets go on to win 111-109.

Oct 27, 1984 vs. Bucks, Jordan misses potential game tying jumper at the end of regulation. Bucks rebound his miss and time expires. Bulls lose 108-106.

Mar 26, 1987 vs. Nets: Jordan misses 2 consecutive FTs near with one minute left (as the Nets are up 107-103) and misses a potential game tying jumper at the buzzer. Bulls lose 109-107.

Nov 3, 1990 vs. Bullets: With 35 seconds left, Jordan misses a short jumper. Then on the ensuing possession he gets his layup blocked at the basket by Horace Grant's brother (who played for the Bullets). Bulls lose 103-102.

Nov 21 vs. Suns, 1990: Misses his last 5 shots in the fourth. Suns end up winning at the buzzer, 109-107.

Dec 17 1991 vs. Lakers: Bulls trying to come back in the 4th quarter, however Jordan made 0 shots in the fourth quarter and missed his last 10 shots. The most notable miss is him blowing a dunk on an open fast break that would have cut the Laker lead to 6. This and Jordan's poor fourth quarter performance ruined any chance of a comeback.

Game 1 vs. Knicks 1993: Jordan goes just 2 for his last 12 shot. Knicks pull away as Jordan was a no show in the second half, and was scoreless for several key stretches in the second half.

Mar 11, 1993 vs. Heat: Jordan misses his last 4 shots and misses a simple floater with 2 seconds left which would have tied the game. Bulls lose 97-95.

Oct 30, 2001 vs. Knicks: Misses potential game tying three pointer with 18 seconds left and commits two costly turnovers before this shot. Wizards lose 93-91.

Apr 12 vs. Hawks, 2003: misses potential gamewinner at buzzer. Wizards lose 101-100.

[nnn123]

All this thread is going to show is to stop holding current stars to an unrealistic standard in the clutch just because they can be scrutinized more easily due to the internet age.

And exactly what "current stars" are you talking about here? LeBron? That's funny, because I remember going on game threads during the NBA Playoffs, just to see a poster named "Fatal" desperately and hilariously trying to prove to ISH how unclutch LeBron is. I also remember a poster named "Fatal" who entirely diminishes Wade's finals performance, due to bad calls....I assume you don't have great affection for him either? Or anyone not named Kobe Bryant? So who is this thread really about?

I think you really need to move on guy, it's so flipping annoying how every single god dam thread you make is indirectly related to Kobe in some way....you seeriously need to cut the crap my friend. Many people already have him in their top 10, that should be good enough for you.

[Fatal9]

I think I'll run out of characters in my OP. Already have 26 entries. Wow.

Again, no one is saying Jordan wasn't clutch. IMO he was at worst the second clutchest player ever (behind Bird who had insane game 7 performances), but still I'd give Jordan the edge. This is partly because I wanted to research a bit on this topic and partly because it's annoying seeing 82games.com tracking every little miss, while former players never underwent that type of scrutiny.

[Godfather]

I think I'll run out of characters in my OP. Already have 26 entries. Wow.

Again, no one is saying Jordan wasn't clutch. IMO he was at worst the second clutchest player ever (behind Bird who had insane game 7 performances), but still I'd give Jordan the edge. This is partly because I wanted to research a bit on this topic and partly because it's annoying seeing 82games.com tracking every little miss, while former players never underwent that type of scrutiny.

Why should anyone trust you are doing this with credibility.

You have a piss poor reputation in conjunction to this topic and you are regarded as a troll.

Post video evidence or gtfo imo.

[Fatal9]

Go check the articles from those dates morons. And then check if I am lying. :oldlol: at thinking I am going to put tapes up of all this because you can't use google. Only posted like 25 entries and people are shocked. Amazing...is this the type of reputation MJ has built up?

[Godfather]

Go check the articles from those dates morons. And then check if I am lying. :oldlol: at thinking I am going to put tapes up of all this because you can't use google.

Link the articles.

[Fatal9]

Link the articles.
Find them yourself. What am I your personal internet assistant? :confusedshrug:

[Dave3]

Go check the articles from those dates morons. And then check if I am lying. :oldlol: at thinking I am going to put tapes up of all this because you can't use google. Only posted like 25 entries and people are shocked. Amazing...is this the type of reputation MJ has built up?
Anyone who writes articles, whether in journalism or scientific articles is expected to site their facts or else they're ridiculed and rejected by peers and the article never becomes published or taken with any respect. It's the duty of the author to provide citations;)

[nnn123]

Go check the articles from those dates morons. And then check if I am lying. :oldlol: at thinking I am going to put tapes up of all this because you can't use google. Only posted like 25 entries and people are shocked. Amazing...is this the type of reputation MJ has built up?

No one's shocked, idiot....people want proof because you are a proven troll who constantly manipulates data in order to get points across. And I'm sure Jordan did have A LOT of unclutch moments...after all I remember watching a lot of Bulls games.

[goldgrill4me]

I think I'll run out of characters in my OP. Already have 26 entries. Wow.

Again, no one is saying Jordan wasn't clutch. IMO he was at worst the second clutchest player ever (behind Bird who had insane game 7 performances), but still I'd give Jordan the edge. This is partly because I wanted to research a bit on this topic and partly because it's annoying seeing 82games.com tracking every little miss, while former players never underwent that type of scrutiny.

where is your bird, magic or pippen anti-clutch logs??? y is all your negativity focused on jordan?

y everytime u give jordan an accolade like greatest finals performance ever, there is always a comment downplaying it like, kareem would be number one but his team lost? or i think he is the clutchest player ever but may be 2nd to bird.

[Fatal9]

No one's shocked, idiot....people want proof because you are a proven troll who constantly manipulates data in order to get points across. And I'm sure Jordan did have A LOT of unclutch moments...after all I remember watching a lot of Bulls games.
Yea apparently a couple of times I didn't round someone's 5.45 assists to 6. Total data manipulation :rolleyes:

:oldlol: at these idiots. Why am I even quoting them? Check the f*cking internet to confirm. There is an ocean of information out there. You can confirm this for yourself, just don't expect me to do it for you because I really don't care.

[KB2clutch]

why are people asking him to get off kobe's nuts but when he gives credit to someone u guys brush it off and claim its an act... whats the point in doing so if ur not gonna believe him anyways if he does agree with u

[Godfather]

:roll:

This clown has created a "log" defaming a player without a single ****ing link...what a joke.

[Raider007]

WoW! What about the gold eggs? By the way the Jordan junkies talked, he crapped gold eggs too!

[catch24]

Yea apparently a couple of times I didn't round someone's 5.45 assists to 6. Total data manipulation :rolleyes:

:oldlol: at these idiots. Why am I even quoting them? Check the f*cking internet to confirm. There is an ocean of information out there. You can confirm this for yourself, just don't expect me to do it for you because I really don't care.

Link us, we are "lazy"..

[bokes15]

The vast majority of Bulls games were either won or lost by his hands during that era... So to look for all his misses rather than looking at his supreme success rate would be ridiculous.

[nnn123]

Yea apparently a couple of times I didn't round someone's 5.45 assists to 6. Total data manipulation :rolleyes:

:oldlol: at these idiots. Why am I even quoting them? Check the f*cking internet to confirm. There is an ocean of information out there. You can confirm this for yourself, just don't expect me to do it for you because I really don't care.

LMAO if you think I'm talking about 'improper rounding' right now....even though you are guilty of that lol

[catch24]

LMAO if you think I'm talking about 'improper rounding' right now....even though you are guilty of that lol

Dude's totally worked, doesn't even provide evidence.... :oldlol:

[Fatal9]

I have a New York Times subscription because I get that delivered to my house. Do you? That's what I thought. Buy yourself some games, watch them, or better yet buy yourself a subscription to a reputable newspaper to confirm this.

:oldlol: at the Jordan fans getting angry, despite me repeatedly insisting that despite all this he is still the clutchest player to ever play the game. The point of the thread isn't to say Jordan is unclutch, because he is not, and to even say anything along those lines is ridiculous.

[bokes15]

^^^ So what is the point... Did you think people believed he had 100% accuracy on game winning shots? Nobody does, not even those with the most clutch reputations. But there's no denying that he made a whole hell of a lot of them and they were memorable.

[catch24]

I have a New York Times subscription because I get that delivered to my house. Do you? That's what I thought. Buy yourself some games, watch them, or better yet buy yourself a subscription to a reputable newspaper to confirm this.

:oldlol: at the Jordan fans getting angry, despite me repeatedly insisting that despite all this he is still the clutchest player to ever play the game. The point of the thread isn't to say Jordan is unclutch, because he is not, and to even say anything along those lines is ridiculous.

In other words you don't have any "real" quotes or links to back these claims up. I thought google was the answer? HELP ME!!!

[Dave3]

Yea apparently a couple of times I didn't round someone's 5.45 assists to 6. Total data manipulation :rolleyes:

:oldlol: at these idiots. Why am I even quoting them? Check the f*cking internet to confirm. There is an ocean of information out there. You can confirm this for yourself, just don't expect me to do it for you because I really don't care.
Sure you don't. That's why you bother looking up all this information and recording it right? And yet for some reason you refuse to cite...Hmm...could it be because some of those shots were practically impossible to make and completely unrelated to being unclutch?

[nnn123]

Fatal I'm not saying that you're making all this up....I certainly do believe Jordan missed many game winners. It's just that in the past you have been guilty of exaggerating/misleading to prove a point, so you might be doing the same here....perhaps some of these turnovers, shots, etc. weren't really Jordan's fault. That's why some sort of link would be appreciated, I'm not saying you're lying here.

[Fatal9]

^^^ So what is the point... Did you think people believed he had 100% accuracy on game winning shots? Nobody does, not even those with the most clutch reputations. But there's no denying that he made a whole hell of a lot of them and they were memorable.
Nah, there used to anti-clutch Kobe logs here all the time. The point is partly interest because you never hear of these games ever (nor does the Jordan-nation on youtube upload many of these). And partly to catalog and show Jordan failed in the clutch for a big % of the games he played in, which to my knowledge no one has ever really done. So when you get posters yapping about Kobe, Wade or Lebron (I am guilty of doing this sometimes too), you gotta remember Jordan failed hundreds of times too, which people seem to forget for some reason.

[goldgrill4me]

Fatal I'm not saying that you're making all this up....I certainly do believe Jordan missed many game winners. It's just that in the past you have been guilty of exaggerating/misleading to prove a point, so you might be doing the same here....perhaps some of these turnovers, shots, etc. weren't really Jordan's fault. That's why some sort of link would be appreciated, I'm not saying you're lying here.

some of these plays or shots are definitely not actually unclutch.

is missing a fadaway three, off one foot, with .8 secs from 29 feet away unclutch?? some of these shots need to be put into perspective if u are really so interested in making an accurate log. which of course he is not.

[Cyclone112]

some of these plays or shots are definitely not actually unclutch.

is missing a fadaway three, off one foot, with .8 secs from 29 feet away unclutch?? some of these shots need to be put into perspective if u are really so interested in making an accurate log. which of course he is not.

Kobe would have hit that shot so it's definitely anti-clutch.

[Fatal9]

Kobe would have hit that shot so it's definitely anti-clutch.
It's counted in his "anti-clutch" stats isn't it? If Lebron misses the shot in game 2, it would have counted towards his "anti-clutch" stats too, right? But in Jordan's case? It was just a tough shot to make :confusedshrug:

You'll note I didn't include the missed shot vs. Jazz but against the Pacers he got a decent look.

[goldgrill4me]

Nah, there used to anti-clutch Kobe logs here all the time. The point is partly interest because you never hear of these games ever (nor does the Jordan-nation on youtube upload many of these). And partly to catalog and show Jordan failed in the clutch for a big % of the games he played in, which to my knowledge no one has ever really done. So when you get posters yapping about Kobe, Wade or Lebron (I am guilty of doing this sometimes too), you gotta remember Jordan failed hundreds of times too, which people seem to forget for some reason.

his accuracy on gw shots is 50 % so obviously he missed half the time moron. no one needs your biased bogus clutch log. u admittedly havent seen most of the games u are using. therefore u dont even know circumstances as to whether these shots are really unclutch or situations where only an extremely low % of these types of shots should be made.

[Cyclone112]

It's counted in his "anti-clutch" stats isn't it? If Lebron misses the shot in game 2, it would have counted towards his "anti-clutch" stats too, right? But in Jordan's case? It was just a tough shot to make :confusedshrug:

You'll note I didn't include the missed shot vs. Jazz but against the Pacers he got a decent look.

No, ridiculously hard shots that have a very minimal chance of going in in the first place should not mean someone is "anti" clutch. Is heaving up a half court shot at the buzzer and missing also anti clutch?

[goldgrill4me]

It's counted in his "anti-clutch" stats isn't it? If Lebron misses the shot in game 2, it would have counted towards his "anti-clutch" stats too, right? But in Jordan's case? It was just a tough shot to make :confusedshrug:

You'll note I didn't include the missed shot vs. Jazz but against the Pacers he got a decent look.

u commented on it saying it was a good contribution to your log. u probably didnt read that game recap yet as to why u didnt add it personally. anytime u have to force a shot with .7 secs is it really unclutch if u miss?? those types of shots are easy to defend against.

these shots are counted for jordan in his 50% field goal percentage on game winning shots.

y u commenting on lebrons 3 that u said was against the poorest possible defense??? now it was a difficult shot? make up your mind clown.:oldlol: :oldlol:

[zabuza666]

Fatal9...the greatest troll insidehoops has ever seen?

[Cyclone112]

Fatal9...the greatest troll insidehoops has ever seen?

Yep and nearly 5000 posts later he still hasn't been banned.

[Lebron23]

Fatal9...the greatest troll insidehoops has ever seen?


Just report all of his posts. We are going to send this clown back to Hell.

[catch24]

Roundballrock > fatal9

[Lebron23]

Roundballrock > fatal9


http://larryfire.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/twoface_31.jpg

[catch24]

LOL..pretty much

[Glide2keva]

"I have failed hundreds of times, that is why I succeed," - Michael Jordan

[Duncan21formvp]

I remember an article that said MJ was 33-58 in game winning shots and situations. That is 56% rate.

[guy]

I remember an article that said MJ was 33-58 in game winning shots and situations. That is 56% rate.


I remember this too. And the same article said Kobe was like 7-32 lol. This was a few years ago though, so I'm sure Kobe's has changed. I'm not going to bother finding the article and citing it since apparently according to this thread we don't really have to.

Anyway, Fatal9 - what exactly is your definition of "anti-clutch?" Is it straight up just missing a game winning shot or a few shots in the end? Or actually choking and not playing up to normal standards? IMO it would be like missing game winning free throws or easy layups, taking bad shots at the end of a game and missing when your teammates are open, letting your team blow big leads, having a bad performances on big stages, not being aggressive when you need to be, etc. Missing a couple of shots at the end of a close game is not anti-clutch IMO. Anti-Clutch IMO is pretty much playing below standards at the end of a close game or overall for a big game. Whichever way it is, today's superstars that you have cited such as Kobe and Lebron are still more anti-clutch then Jordan. So I'm not sure how this proves your point that we shouldn't be so hard on them when they are "anti-clutch," when they are still moreso then Jordan. Either way, most people don't think those guys are anti-clutch.

[godofgods]

Everybody failed in the clutch one time or another.

With that said, this is a good thread. We also need another one for Kobe.

[guy]

I have a New York Times subscription because I get that delivered to my house. Do you? That's what I thought. Buy yourself some games, watch them, or better yet buy yourself a subscription to a reputable newspaper to confirm this.


Ummm so what does this mean? Do you just have New York Times newspapers since 1984 just laying around in your house? Cause that would be weird and your house would probably be overflowing by now.

[qrich]

I remember this too. And the same article said Kobe was like 7-32 lol. This was a few years ago though, so I'm sure Kobe's has changed. I'm not going to bother finding the article and citing it since apparently according to this thread we don't really have to.


If he was 7-32 at that time, he has since went 7-24 (29.2%). At least until February 4th of this past season.

[Fatal9]

Ummm so what does this mean? Do you just have New York Times newspapers since 1984 just laying around in your house? Cause that would be weird and your house would probably be overflowing by now.
:oldlol: at your stupidity. You know they have newspapers on the internet nowadays right?

[guy]

:oldlol: at your stupidity. You know they have newspapers on the internet nowadays right?

Well you said you have them delivered your house so I thought you meant you had all copies of those. :oldlol: at you actually going through over 1,000 game logs (if you're not actually making this s*** up) to try to look for everytime Jordan missed a shot in a close game. And you say you don't have an agenda? HAHAHAHA. You're pathetic.

[dr8ked]

I remember an article that said MJ was 33-58 in game winning shots and situations. That is 56% rate.




I remember this too. And the same article said Kobe was like 7-32 lol. This was a few years ago though, so I'm sure Kobe's has changed. I'm not going to bother finding the article and citing it since apparently according to this thread we don't really have to.

Anyway, Fatal9 - what exactly is your definition of "anti-clutch?" Is it straight up just missing a game winning shot or a few shots in the end? Or actually choking and not playing up to normal standards? IMO it would be like missing game winning free throws or easy layups, taking bad shots at the end of a game and missing when your teammates are open, letting your team blow big leads, having a bad performances on big stages, not being aggressive when you need to be, etc. Missing a couple of shots at the end of a close game is not anti-clutch IMO. Anti-Clutch IMO is pretty much playing below standards at the end of a close game or overall for a big game. Whichever way it is, today's superstars that you have cited such as Kobe and Lebron are still more anti-clutch then Jordan. So I'm not sure how this proves your point that we shouldn't be so hard on them when they are "anti-clutch," when they are still moreso then Jordan. Either way, most people don't think those guys are anti-clutch.





If he was 7-32 at that time, he has since went 7-24 (29.2%). At least until February 4th of this past season.


:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[goldgrill4me]

If he was 7-32 at that time, he has since went 7-24 (29.2%). At least until February 4th of this past season.

Kobe's a BEAST.........what u think fatal? :roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe's peak > Hakeem's peak because he had a higher PER, right? Statistically prime Kareem (who played with only 10-15% difference in pace) kills Jordan. This is why I hate Jordan fans (not the player, but his fans). They make his teammates seem worse than they really are, they try to make it seem like the "GOAT" status is questionable, they are usually ignorant kids who really have followed only his career (mostly through biased youtube highlights), don't place his career in context, they are sensitive to any opinion or comment that doesn't praise him, and the worst part is that there are so many of them on the internet (crazy amount of youtube tribute videos).

There isn't even a negative comment about Jordan in the OP but these guys are so insecure it's crazy.



You are such a bull****er.. You are the guy who started the KOBE on Pace for A BETTER PER than MJ crap post before the finals.. YES OR NO.. JERKOFF.... After Kobe failed to keep that great PER you stopped posting that bull... As for PER and kobe vs Hakeem... I have read from most and yourself included that PERS's should not be used to measure guys in different positions....


Still I will engage that bull... Sure Kobe has a better PER in the regular season in his peak but Hakeem's PER in the playoffs , where greats are made, is much better than Kobe's...


I also notice you only use Kobe's best years to measure them against Hakeems' best years.. Again BEING SELECTIVE TO MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT STRONGER, a punk move you have used in the past... EXAMPLE

Mj only shot 39 percent if you take game 2,5, and 6 out....:roll:


Hakeem has a better PER than Kobe at this point.. One other point I will make is that Kobe's best years have come after the No touch rules came into effect.....

Lastly I don't want the kobestans *****ing cuz this faker put Kobe into this discussion...

[juju151111]

You are such a bull****er.. You are the guy who started the KOBE on Pace for A BETTER PER than MJ crap post before the finals.. YES OR NO.. JERKOFF.... After Kobe failed to keep that great PER you stopped posting that bull... As for PER and kobe vs Hakeem... I have read from most and yourself included that PERS's should not be used to measure guys in different positions....


Still I will engage that bull... Sure Kobe has a better PER in the regular season in his peak but Hakeem's PER in the playoffs , where greats are made, is much better than Kobe's...


I also notice you only use Kobe's best years to measure them against Hakeems' best years.. Again BEING SELECTIVE TO MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT STRONGER, a punk move you have used in the past... EXAMPLE

Mj only shot 39 percent if you take game 2,5, and 6 out....:roll:


Hakeem has a better PER than Kobe at this point.. One other point I will make is that Kobe's best years have come after the No touch rules came into effect.....

Lastly I don't want the kobestans *****ing cuz this faker put Kobe into this discussion...
ETHER:hammertime:

[lbj23clutch]

I remember this too. And the same article said Kobe was like 7-32 lol. This was a few years ago though, so I'm sure Kobe's has changed. I'm not going to bother finding the article and citing it since apparently according to this thread we don't really have to.

Anyway, Fatal9 - what exactly is your definition of "anti-clutch?" Is it straight up just missing a game winning shot or a few shots in the end? Or actually choking and not playing up to normal standards? IMO it would be like missing game winning free throws or easy layups, taking bad shots at the end of a game and missing when your teammates are open, letting your team blow big leads, having a bad performances on big stages, not being aggressive when you need to be, etc. Missing a couple of shots at the end of a close game is not anti-clutch IMO. Anti-Clutch IMO is pretty much playing below standards at the end of a close game or overall for a big game. Whichever way it is, today's superstars that you have cited such as Kobe and Lebron are still more anti-clutch then Jordan. So I'm not sure how this proves your point that we shouldn't be so hard on them when they are "anti-clutch," when they are still moreso then Jordan. Either way, most people don't think those guys are anti-clutch.
:applause:

[dr8ked]

You are such a bull****er.. You are the guy who started the KOBE on Pace for A BETTER PER than MJ crap post before the finals.. YES OR NO.. JERKOFF.... After Kobe failed to keep that great PER you stopped posting that bull... As for PER and kobe vs Hakeem... I have read from most and yourself included that PERS's should not be used to measure guys in different positions....


Still I will engage that bull... Sure Kobe has a better PER in the regular season in his peak but Hakeem's PER in the playoffs , where greats are made, is much better than Kobe's...


I also notice you only use Kobe's best years to measure them against Hakeems' best years.. Again BEING SELECTIVE TO MAKE YOUR ARGUMENT STRONGER, a punk move you have used in the past... EXAMPLE

Mj only shot 39 percent if you take game 2,5, and 6 out....:roll:


Hakeem has a better PER than Kobe at this point.. One other point I will make is that Kobe's best years have come after the No touch rules came into effect.....

Lastly I don't want the kobestans *****ing cuz this faker put Kobe into this discussion...


http://mooregroup.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/ether.jpg

[Jacks3]

I love the Jordan stans getting their panties in a bunch and bringing up Kobe in a thread that has nothing to do with him.:oldlol:

[raptorfan_dr07]

:roll:
Everyone should just give Fatal what he wants and post one moment u recall of Jordan being anti-clutch.


No, instead we should post all of Kobe's anti-clutch moments. Fatal9 would probably have a heart attack. The list would be pretty damn long.

[bigkingsfan]

I love the Jordan stans getting their panties in a bunch and bringing up Kobe in a thread that has nothing to do with him.:oldlol:
I'm surprised some people are gullible enough to be unaware of the op's intention.

[branslowski]

No, instead we should post all of Kobe's anti-clutch moments. Fatal9 would probably have a heart attack. The list would be pretty damn long.

Already been done. Bruce did it...What's also funny is, that most of the ppl in this thread b*tching over some "anti-Clutch" moments, are the same ppl lol'ing in Bruce's "anti-Kobe" threads...Then Bruce's follower's all bunch together and say..."Watch the Kobe nut huggers be pissed by this, lol"..

Then Flame us as Stans for being pissed....

But humm, what do ya know...:rolleyes:

Also, I really don't condone this thread...Because fatal, if their are tons of posters who think your a Jordan hater, why make a thread showing MJ's negative times?

[Dengness9]

Yeah, Fatal usually has an agenda.

This thread doesn't bother me though. He's stated that Jordan's the best of all time, but he wants people to know MJ was human like all of the other stars.



"...but he wants people to know MJ was human like all of the other stars."


NO. All the other players were human and MJ was a machine non human bball murderer.

[Dengness9]

Go check the articles from those dates morons. And then check if I am lying. :oldlol: at thinking I am going to put tapes up of all this because you can't use google. Only posted like 25 entries and people are shocked. Amazing...is this the type of reputation MJ has built up?



His reputation is he is the greatest of all time and no one has ever even been close.

There's your answer.

[Dengness9]

some of these plays or shots are definitely not actually unclutch.

is missing a fadaway three, off one foot, with .8 secs from 29 feet away unclutch?? some of these shots need to be put into perspective if u are really so interested in making an accurate log. which of course he is not.


+1

[lbj23clutch]

Already been done. Bruce did it...What's also funny is, that most of the ppl in this thread b*tching over some "anti-Clutch" moments, are the same ppl lol'ing in Bruce's "anti-Kobe" threads...Then Bruce's follower's all bunch together and say..."Watch the Kobe nut huggers be pissed by this, lol"..

Then Flame us as Stans for being pissed....

But humm, what do ya know...:rolleyes:

Also, I really don't condone this thread...Because fatal, if their are tons of posters who think your a Jordan hater, why make a thread showing MJ's negative times?
LOL get a clue dude, everyone knows this Fatal9 is agenda driven besides you and Roundball_Rock cmon.

[branslowski]

LOL get a clue dude, everyone knows this Fatal9 is agenda driven besides you and Roundball_Rock cmon.

Did you even understand my post? Or is Fatal on your mind 24/7?

Point I was making was, that most of the ppl pissed about this, aren't pissed when Bruce just pulls up all of Kobe's Negative moments...

Then you have dude's in here that say.."Oh, well, it's a fact, so who cares if it's negative, stop crying over Kobe".....But yet, their pissed at this thread that also shows fact's of MJ and his rare non clutch moments? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IAM SAYING???

I don't give a sh!t about what Fatal9 is...I really don't...So please, don't bring him up to me....Just tell me you can comprehend what Iam saying...

[catch24]

LOL get a clue dude, everyone knows this Fatal9 is agenda driven besides you and Roundball_Rock cmon.

No different than Bruce though. Brans has a point, the moaners and whiners here are jockers who laugh and gather/bash/congratulate Bruce pulling out the "stats", but when it's pertaining their hero...GOD FORBID!!....

Jordan's one of my fav's, no doubt the GOAT, but the hypocrisy is amusing.

[Abraham Lincoln]

No different than Bruce though. Brans has a point, the moaners and whiners here are jockers who laugh and gather/bash/congratulate Bruce pulling out the "stats", but when it's pertaining their hero...GOD FORBID!!....

Jordan's one of my fav's, no doubt the GOAT, but the hypocrisy is amusing.
According to the past branslowski comments, Fatal9 be one of the top posters here.

[lbj23clutch]

Did you even understand my post? Or is Fatal on your mind 24/7?

Point I was making was, that most of the ppl pissed about this, aren't pissed when Bruce just pulls up all of Kobe's Negative moments...

Then you have dude's in here that say.."Oh, well, it's a fact, so who cares if it's negative, stop crying over Kobe".....But yet, their pissed at this thread that also shows fact's of MJ and his rare non clutch moments? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IAM SAYING???

I don't give a sh!t about what Fatal9 is...I really don't...So please, don't bring him up to me....Just tell me you can comprehend what Iam saying...
Yes I do, there's a double standard, but you always seem to defend that troll Fatal, just saying.

[qrich]

Did you even understand my post? Or is Fatal on your mind 24/7?

Point I was making was, that most of the ppl pissed about this, aren't pissed when Bruce just pulls up all of Kobe's Negative moments...

Then you have dude's in here that say.."Oh, well, it's a fact, so who cares if it's negative, stop crying over Kobe".....But yet, their pissed at this thread that also shows fact's of MJ and his rare non clutch moments? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IAM SAYING???

I don't give a sh!t about what Fatal9 is...I really don't...So please, don't bring him up to me....Just tell me you can comprehend what Iam saying...

Plenty of people bash Bruce, and he also, at least, had more to say then stuff about MJ and Kobe, which is basically ALL I've ever seen from Fatal.

Plus, I don't get why people take either of those two seriously. Sure, they make good points once in a while, but just the fact that they spend the amount of time they do downplaying a player shows how insecure they are and should be left at that.

[lbj23clutch]

Plenty of people bash Bruce, and he also, at least, had more to say then stuff about MJ and Kobe, which is basically ALL I've ever seen from Fatal.

Plus, I don't get why people take either of those two seriously. Sure, they make good points once in a while, but just the fact that they spend the amount of time they do downplaying a player shows how insecure they are and should be left at that.
Exactly. :applause: :cheers: :applause:

[catch24]

According to the past branslowski comments, Fatal9 be one of the top posters here.

Well he's not, dude is a Kobe closet fan.

[branslowski]

According to the past branslowski comments, Fatal9 be one of the top posters here.

And, I guess you forgot to mention how I said Oldschoolbball aka Loki is aswel huh?...(Loki= A Jordan Hardcore Fan with a bias against Kobe, but like Fatal, leaves well thoughtout Factual argumesnt...)

Tht get's left out....Just like when Fatal wrote a F*cking essay on how much greater a player Jordan is than Kobe...Can we please not cut up a puzzle piece to make it fit in a wrong spot? Or your spot?...

[branslowski]

Plenty of people bash Bruce, and he also, at least, had more to say then stuff about MJ and Kobe, which is basically ALL I've ever seen from Fatal.

Plus, I don't get why people take either of those two seriously. Sure, they make good points once in a while, but just the fact that they spend the amount of time they do downplaying a player shows how insecure they are and should be left at that.

My point isn't who is and who isn't Bruce fans....My point is, most of the ppl b!tching about a Negative Factual moment about Jordan in this thread, are the same ppl who lol and flame at Kobe fans for being upset when the same is done to Kobe...NVM..:ohwell:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Well he's not, dude is a Kobe closet fan.
Alas, for every bruce and pleeze there be the likes of Fatal, KB42Pah, roundball, Alpha, cantstop, amongst the legion of defenders whom shall back the trolls. Not their comments, but the people themselves. The wise man says that without the existance of Bryant haters, a certain portion of these fellators would die of mental instanity. For the mere purpose of their lives be to self pity and portray the victim role in such. And the general American population, as weak minded and simple as they be, feel instant gratification for such. Or they be the punk college student who loves the imaginary idea of fighting against the world.

It's us and Kobe against the world! :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:


:hammertime:


















The above comment should be a reflection of how stupid Bryant fellators are and how irritating their stupid comments be, just as I'm sure you be irritated by reading the selective exemplary words above. Learn thy lesson, for in the eyes of the wise man stands one equal, the righteous man. For the lack of morality need be replaced by the understanding of mortality and the righteousness of ALL the wise men. Thou shan't any longer deny such withhold cheating thyself psychologically out of a pure understanding not only of the wise man, but of the oneness of our true kindred spirit.

[Cyclone112]

Already been done. Bruce did it...What's also funny is, that most of the ppl in this thread b*tching over some "anti-Clutch" moments, are the same ppl lol'ing in Bruce's "anti-Kobe" threads...Then Bruce's follower's all bunch together and say..."Watch the Kobe nut huggers be pissed by this, lol"..

Then Flame us as Stans for being pissed....

But humm, what do ya know...:rolleyes:

Also, I really don't condone this thread...Because fatal, if their are tons of posters who think your a Jordan hater, why make a thread showing MJ's negative times?

Most people bashed Bruce, I was calling for him to get banned for ages and ALWAYS ripped on him when he was unnecessarily hating on anyone including Kobe. There's a big difference between starting hate threads and defending a player in another thread and that is what you are mixing up. When Bruce made a hate thread against Kobe just out of nowhere there were tons(not all) of posters including "MJ stans" calling him an idiot and telling him to **** off. Most often the times people "supported" Bruce was when he was defending MJ/bashing Kobe in **** threads like this one created by retards like Fatal9.

[branslowski]

And, I guess you forgot to mention how I said Oldschoolbball aka Loki is aswel huh?...(Loki= A Jordan Hardcore Fan with a bias against Kobe, but like Fatal, leaves well thoughtout Factual argumesnt...)

Tht get's left out....Just like when Fatal wrote a F*cking essay on how much greater a player Jordan is than Kobe...Can we please not cut up a puzzle piece to make it fit in a wrong spot? Or your spot?...

.......................

Danced...

It doesn't matter, but if this thread was made about Bryant...Most of the ppl here that are pissed, would be happy and daring a Kobe fan to get upset with facts..But, NVM...Double-Standards are single-Standards in the eye's of the Hanes...Done.

[IInvented]

.......................

Danced...

It doesn't matter, but if this thread was made about Bryant...Most of the ppl here that are pissed, would be happy and daring a Kobe fan to get upset with facts..But, NVM...Double-Standards are single-Standards in the eye's of the Hanes...Done.

Why you quoting yourself homie? :oldlol:

[branslowski]

Why you quoting yourself homie? :oldlol:

Because Abe didn't trully answer my question...Or respond to the point I was making...Doesn't matter...

[catch24]

Alas, for every bruce and pleeze there be the likes of Fatal, KB42Pah, roundball, Alpha, cantstop, amongst the legion of defenders whom shall back the trolls. Not their comments, but the people themselves. The wise man says that without the existance of Bryant haters, a certain portion of these fellators would die of mental instanity. For the mere purpose of their lives be to self pity and portray the victim role in such. And the general American population, as weak minded and simple as they be, feel instant gratification for such. Or they be the punk college student who loves the imaginary idea of fighting against the world.

Cut the crap abe, you're nothing but a gimmick speaking on your imaginary high horse. Even if those comments weren't towards myself as a poster, I still feel you're way off base. Haters are haters and I'm certain basketball would be better without them. There's a difference between constructive criticism and a bias/hatred towards a player. Those "legions" of Kobe apologists that you mentioned excluding roundball are truly infatuated with him, make no mistake about it. But those like Bruce, and posters in this very thread that I will not put on blast are no different: stuck on Kobe, every move bad or good, waiting for a negative just so they can release their frustrations out on text.

It's not about Kobe and his fans being weak minded or "playing victim", more like defending a players legacy that gets sh!tted on constantly for no reason other than comparing him to Jordan, which all players fall short to. Enjoy him, he won't be here much longer dude.

BTW, you still haven't fooled anyone with the Wilt GOAT rhetoric.

[catch24]

Because Abe didn't trully answer my question...Or respond to the point I was making...Doesn't matter...

Stumped the GOAT president :D

[Abraham Lincoln]

And, I guess you forgot to mention how I said Oldschoolbball aka Loki is aswel huh?...(Loki= A Jordan Hardcore Fan with a bias against Kobe, but like Fatal, leaves well thoughtout Factual argumesnt...)

Tht get's left out....Just like when Fatal wrote a F*cking essay on how much greater a player Jordan is than Kobe...Can we please not cut up a puzzle piece to make it fit in a wrong spot? Or your spot?...
Tis be an error in the wise man's judgement, for Oldschool as biased as be, was never a baiter, which Fatal be.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Cut the crap abe, you're nothing but a gimmick speaking on your imaginary high horse. Even if those comments weren't towards myself as a poster, I still feel you're way off base. Haters are haters and I'm certain basketball would be better without them. There's a difference between constructive criticism and a bias/hatred towards a player. Those "legions" of Kobe apologists that you mentioned excluding roundball are truly infatuated with him, make no mistake about it. But those like Bruce, and posters in this very thread that I will not put on blast are no different: stuck on Kobe, every move bad or good, waiting for a negative just so they can release their frustrations out on text.

It's not about Kobe and his fans being weak minded or "playing victim", more like defending a players legacy that gets sh!tted on constantly for no reason other than comparing him to Jordan, which all players fall short to. Enjoy him, he won't be here much longer dude.

BTW, you still haven't fooled anyone with the Wilt GOAT rhetoric.

It appears the 2nd part of my post thou convieniently neglected applies to thou. For the satircal impact renowned words mean all but something to all but the righteous man. Lets take a step down from the wise man tier, for the kindred creedence of righteousness be simple, it be to have morality.

[branslowski]

Cut the crap abe, you're nothing but a gimmick speaking on your imaginary high horse. Even if those comments weren't towards myself as a poster, I still feel you're way off base. Haters are haters and I'm certain basketball would be better without them. There's a difference between constructive criticism and a bias/hatred towards a player. Those "legions" of Kobe apologists that you mentioned excluding roundball are truly infatuated with him, make no mistake about it. But those like Bruce, and posters in this very thread that I will not put on blast are no different: stuck on Kobe, every move bad or good, waiting for a negative just so they can release their frustrations out on text.

It's not about Kobe and his fans being weak minded or "playing victim", more like defending a players legacy that gets sh!tted on constantly for no reason other than comparing him to Jordan, which all players fall short to.

F*cking Bingo...:applause: :applause: :applause:

Also, I don't know why all Jordan Fans do this...Try to make it seem like everything they say is right, and the real truth, when in reality, they are nothing more than big fans of a basketball player, and some of them are Bias towards Kobe....

If we are gonna call Fatal9 a troll....Then we should call Oldschoolbball a troll...Or lets do this, Lets just say...Fatal9 is a big Kobe fan...But doesn't suck Mj's balls to the likeness of the Hardcore MJ fans..And lets say, he admit's he doesn't like MJ...And lets say, he has wrote some negative things about Mj....

You see that? Most of the ppl calling Fatal a troll, are the ones who are exactly like this, but play opposite role's...

To put Fatal9 on the level of a Alpha Wolf is garbage...And suprise suprise, they ignore the great threads he makes about other old-school players (besides MJ), and they don't call him troll when he shares his knowledge on the old-school players..(EX. His thread on Hakeem today)...But HOLYSH!T, guess what?....When he isn't licking MJ's sack...He's a troll...:rolleyes:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Stumped the GOAT president :D

The greatest be none other than President Washington.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/spring97/washington.html

[branslowski]

Tis be an error in the wise man's judgement, for Oldschool as biased as be, was never a baiter, which Fatal be.

Because he doesn't make as many threads?? Loki aka Old-school...Is a full blown Kobe hater, has a straight bias towards Kobe and diminishes him every chance he get's....Yet, I take the unbias road, and recongnize that he is still a great poster...

While you on the other hand, label Fatal9 a troll, ignoring the fact that he is a great poster, and his knowing the history of the game is recongnized untill he doesn't suck Mj's balls...

I mean sh!t, Lets just say, Fatal is a Kobe fan/Jordan hater...Doesn't change the fact tat he's a good knowledgable poster..Especially when you and other MJ fans love the f*ck out of Loki's post...I mean, a double-standard is screaming at you, but the "wise man" has gone deaf...

[qrich]

Because he doesn't make as many threads?? Loki aka Old-school...Is a full blown Kobe hater, has a straight bias towards Kobe and diminishes him every chance he get's....Yet, I take the unbias road, and recongnize that he is still a great poster...

While you on the other hand, label Fatal9 a troll, ignoring the fact that he is a great poster, and his knowing the history of the game is recongnized untill he doesn't suck Mj's balls...

I mean sh!t, Lets just say, Fatal is a Kobe fan/Jordan hater...Doesn't change the fact tat he's a good knowledgable poster..Especially when you and other MJ fans love the f*ck out of Loki's post...I mean, a double-standard is screaming at you, but the "wise man" has gone deaf...

:eek: :wtf:

[catch24]

It appears the 2nd part of my post thou convieniently neglected applies to thou. For the satircal impact renowned words mean all but something to all but the righteous man. Lets take a step down from the wise man tier, for the kindred creedence of righteousness be simple, it be to have morality.

lol @ this. I didn't convienitently miss anything, I read your whole posts. Re-read mine again, tis be hypocritical coming from a MJ closet fan...I mean "WILT GOAT".

[catch24]

The greatest be none other than President Washington.

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/spring97/washington.html

> or =

up for debate

[Cyclone112]

F*cking Bingo...:applause: :applause: :applause:

Also, I don't know why all Jordan Fans do this...Try to make it seem like everything they say is right, and the real truth, when in reality, they are nothing more than big fans of a basketball player, and some of them are Bias towards Kobe....

If we are gonna call Fatal9 a troll....Then we should call Oldschoolbball a troll...Or lets do this, Lets just say...Fatal9 is a big Kobe fan...But doesn't suck Mj's balls to the likeness of the Hardcore MJ fans..And lets say, he admit's he doesn't like MJ...And lets say, he has wrote some negative things about Mj....

You see that? Most of the ppl calling Fatal a troll, are the ones who are exactly like this, but play opposite role's...

To put Fatal9 on the level of a Alpha Wolf is garbage...And suprise suprise, they ignore the great threads he makes about other old-school players (besides MJ), and they don't call him troll when he shares his knowledge on the old-school players..(EX. His thread on Hakeem today)...But HOLYSH!T, guess what?....When he isn't licking MJ's sack...He's a troll...:rolleyes:

Fatal9 manipulates data, starts countless troll/bait threads bashing MJ, bashes MJ for no reason in threads that aren't even related to him, pretends to like certain players such as MJ to make people think he's unbiased and so they actually believe his agenda and the list just keeps going on.

This Hakeem thread you are talking about he actually bashes MJ in it on the second page out of nowhere for no reason.

OldSchool does not start hate threads, does not bait people and rarely bashes Kobe for no reason unless it's to defend MJ or put some retard in his place overrating Kobe which usually involves taking shots at MJ or LBJ.

[branslowski]

Fatal9 manipulates data, starts countless troll/bait threads bashing MJ, bashes MJ for no reason in threads that aren't even related to him, pretends to like certain players such as MJ to make people think he's unbiased and so they actually believe his agenda and the list just keeps going on.

This Hakeem thread you are talking about he actually bashes MJ in it on the second page out of nowhere for no reason.

OldSchool does not start hate threads, does not bait people and rarely bashes Kobe for no reason unless it's to defend MJ or put some retard in his place overrating Kobe which usually involves taking shots at MJ or LBJ.

F*ck outta here with that BS...Look..Im done with this...As I said...Loki and Fatal are good knowledgable poster's...They are not troll's who know nthing about the History of the NBA like Alpha Wolf and Duncan21formvp...

If Fatal is a troll in your eyes, then so be it...

Jodie Meeks is a monster...

[branslowski]

lol @ this. I didn't convienitently miss anything, I read your whole posts. Re-read mine again, tis be hypocritical coming from a MJ closet fan...I mean "WILT GOAT".

:oldlol: Not cool man...

[Abraham Lincoln]

Because he doesn't make as many threads?? Loki aka Old-school...Is a full blown Kobe hater, has a straight bias towards Kobe and diminishes him every chance he get's....Yet, I take the unbias road, and recongnize that he is still a great poster...

While you on the other hand, label Fatal9 a troll, ignoring the fact that he is a great poster, and his knowing the history of the game is recongnized untill he doesn't suck Mj's balls...

I mean sh!t, Lets just say, Fatal is a Kobe fan/Jordan hater...Doesn't change the fact tat he's a good knowledgable poster..Especially when you and other MJ fans love the f*ck out of Loki's post...I mean, a double-standard is screaming at you, but the "wise man" has gone deaf...
I would rather die than associated with the certain savages that be Jordan and Bryant fellators. I don't love anybody's posts, for the righteousness of morality has no bias, which be the blessing of our one true kindred creedence.

[Cyclone112]

F*ck outta here with that BS...Look..Im done with this...As I said...Loki and Fatal are good knowledgable poster's...They are not troll's who know nthing about the History of the NBA like Alpha Wolf and Duncan21formvp...

If Fatal is a troll in your eyes, then so be it...

Jodie Meeks is a monster...

How do you just look at one line of my post and ignore everything else. Fatal9 is completely different than OldSchool. The first half of the part you bolded is completely untrue, he does not bait people at all. Baiting is starting **** threads like this knowing people are going to get pissed and reply and then acting all surprised about it. As for the second half of the bolded, it sounds like you need to pay more attention to when OldSchool posts. Almost all of his Kobe bashing are in response to idiots like Fatal9, when do you ever see OldSchool bring up Kobe for no reason in a thread that doesn't involve him just to bash him. That is Fatal9's specialty.

[Abraham Lincoln]

lol @ this. I didn't convienitently miss anything, I read your whole posts. Re-read mine again, tis be hypocritical coming from a MJ closet fan...I mean "WILT GOAT".
You don't get it man. It be not only Jordan fans who despise the Bryant fellators. Be it as in 1962, Chamberlain was a bullcrap goaltending call away from defeating the Celtics and surely winning the championship. In his 50 point 25 rebound season. It is inarguable that Michael Jordan be the most overhyped player ever seen. It is also inarguable that he be more lucky throughout thy career than Wilt Chamberlain was, who with a few reversed plays over the years could easily have 6 or more championships. It is inarguable Wilt Chamberlain be the unluckiest player along with the incomprable Elgin Baylor. It be inarguable the Chamberlain is the most dominant force the league has ever seen on all ends of the floor. It be inarguable that Jordan fans as well as Jordan himself has insulted Chamberlain, merely calling him another Shaquille O'Neal and spouting off nonsense regarding the apparently weak era of basketball. Yet none of the above be more inarguable than the fact that Bryant fans be the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet. Keep proving the wise man's point, for you guys suprassed the Jordan fans long ago.

[triangleoffense]

if those are all his failures in the 4th then that really isnt' that much. He had a long career and more times than not he came through.

[catch24]

You don't get it man. It be not only Jordan fans who despise the Bryant fellators. Be it as in 1962, Chamberlain was a bullcrap goaltending call away from defeating the Celtics and surely winning the championship. In his 50 point 25 rebound season. It is inarguable that Michael Jordan be the most overhyped player ever seen. It is also inarguable that he be more lucky throughout thy career than Wilt Chamberlain was, who with a few reversed plays over the years could easily have 6 or more championships. It is inarguable Wilt Chamberlain be the unluckiest player along with the incomprable Elgin Baylor. It be inarguable the Chamberlain is the most dominant force the league has ever seen on all ends of the floor. It be inarguable that Jordan fans as well as Jordan himself has insulted Chamberlain, merely calling him another Shaquille O'Neal and spouting off nonsense regarding the apparently weak era of basketball. Yet none of the above be more inarguable than the fact that Bryant fans be the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet. Keep proving the wise man's point, for you guys suprassed the Jordan fans long ago.

Granted I don't see you really being a Wilt guy, I agree. Jordan fans are just as bad sh!tting on ERA's past. For the most part, they're better than KB homers respecting NBA greats..

[branslowski]

You don't get it man. It be not only Jordan fans who despise the Bryant fellators. Be it as in 1962, Chamberlain was a bullcrap goaltending call away from defeating the Celtics and surely winning the championship. In his 50 point 25 rebound season. It is inarguable that Michael Jordan be the most overhyped player ever seen. It is also inarguable that he be more lucky throughout thy career than Wilt Chamberlain was, who with a few reversed plays over the years could easily have 6 or more championships. It is inarguable Wilt Chamberlain be the unluckiest player along with the incomprable Elgin Baylor. It be inarguable the Chamberlain is the most dominant force the league has ever seen on all ends of the floor. It be inarguable that Jordan fans have insulted the likes of Chamberlain. It be inarguable that Jordan himself has insulted Chamberlain, merely calling him another Shaquille O'Neal. Just as it be inarguable that Bryant fans be the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet. Keep proving the wise man's point.

Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:

[mamba24]

you cant win them all....but he does have 6 titles to his name...and thats all that counts.

[branslowski]

you cant win them all....but he does have 6 titles to his name...and thats all that counts.

Dispicable Kobe fan...:mad:





Just imagine if you had a MJ Hanes Underwear Avatar and said.."I don't like Kobe, he's the mst overrated piece of sh!t in the world"....Then, you would be a wise man...:D

[catch24]

Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:

Something I'll never understand as well, but hey WILT is the Greatest player of all times young wise man...:oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yet, the "wise man" is in every thread siding with Jordan fans, aswell as Jordan stans who obviously hate Kobe...
For the wise man depicts the morality of our true creedence, which be that the trashing of Bryant followers be not neccesarily a direct link to my apparent kindred creedence to them. The wise man defends words, not egotistical mortals. For this be the same argument I have had with many of them before, prior to the age of the internet.


And ofcourse Kobe fans are the most dispicable creatures to ever roam the planet...:rolleyes:You guys have taken that title from the Jordan fans around 2003. By 2006 it was insanity.

[TryToBeUnbias]

His list of failures isnt even long enough for someone to b*tch about..maybe if it was posted by someone other than fatal...hey who knows

[TryToBeUnbias]

For the wise man depicts the morality of our true creedence, which be that the trashing of Bryant followers be not neccesarily a direct link to my apparent kindred creedence to them. The wise man defends words, not egotistical mortals. For this be the same argument I have had with many of them before, prior to the age of the internet.

You guys have taken that title from the Jordan fans around 2003. By 2006 it was insanity.
this sentence was written normally?? :eek:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Granted I don't see you really being a Wilt guy, I agree. Jordan fans are just as bad sh!tting on ERA's past. For the most part, they're better than KB homers respecting NBA greats..
For really the man must consider, who here really gives a **** about Chamberlain or his contemporaries enough to troll. 99% of the trolling here be about Jordan, Bryant, or both.

[catch24]

For really the man must consider, who here really gives a **** about Chamberlain or his contemporaries enough to troll. 99% of the trolling here be about Jordan, Bryant, or both.

Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:

[branslowski]

Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:

The worst part is...I don't know if I wan't to comment on the Wilt/MJ debate thing...Because if I prove to him (A Wilt Fan ) that MJ is the GOAT, I don't know if he's gonna be upset, or happy...:oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Everyone knows Wilt was great arguably the best at his position/GOAT, but you're busting a fatal9...stop :oldlol:
Thou has some nerve, for not only be it arguable that Chamberlain is not the best, but now it is being narrowed down to not even the best center? :roll:

Wilt vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Wilt simply was a more dominant player. He could pour on the offense to higher degrees than Kareem. Wilt is the greatest rebounder in history, and Kareem was a weak rebounder for his size. Wilt was a better passer, and I believe, a better defender. When Wilt was in his final 2 years, which corresponded with Kareem's 3rd and 4th year, Wilt was still making the first team all-defense over Kareem. None of this is a bag on Kareem, because I do believe Kareem is one of the 3 greatest centers in history, but he simply was no Wilt.

Some will try to bring up rings. This is a silly argument, since rings are a team achievement, but still, consider that during Kareem's first 10 years, he won 1 ring, and made the finals 3 times. When Wilt did this, fools call it "choking", but Kareem "didn't have the teammates." Frankly, if Kareem didn't have one of the 2 greatest point guards in history (Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson), then his teams did extremely poorly. In 1975 and 1976, Kareem led them to losing records. In 1977, they were higher-seeded and got swept by Bill Walton's Traiblazers. In 1978, they were finished 4th place in the 5 team Pacific Division. In 1979, they finished 3rd in the 6th team Pacific Division. Did he have teammates? Well, in 1979, he had Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley, and Jamaal Wilkes. Is that talent? So in the 5 seasons without Magic and Oscar, they won only 1 division title, and never won a game past the conference semi-finals. In 1980, Magic Johnson joined the Lakers, and they started winning titles. When Kareem retired in 1989, the Lakers replaced him with Vlade Divac and won 6 MORE games. Food for thought.

So did Kareem win titles? No. The Lakers (and Bucks) won titles. One man teams do not win titles.

Kareem did play longer, but does this make Robert Parish better than Kareem? No. Also, Kareem played less minutes than Wilt. Who couldn't play more games when they are pacing themselves? Kareem played 20 seasons to Wilt's 14. However, if you take Wilt's min/game and turn them into the number of games Kareem played, Wilt played the equivalent of 18 seasons! And consider, in Wilt's final season, he set a record for field goal percentage (72.7%), led the league in rebounds, and was first team all-defense (over Kareem). Wilt retired while he was still a star in the league. When Kareem retired, he wasn't even beating out backup Mychal Thompson in minutes. Kareem was a starter by title-only. He also hacked off Lakers' GM Jerry West by coming to work out of shape, and giving what was considered a half-hearted effort. You can read about this in Kareem's book Kareem. You can also read Kareem try to justify his poor work habit.

So once you slice through the superficial rhetoric, it comes down to who was the most dominant player and the answer was Wilt. He could fill any role on a team. Kareem could not. If you needed someone to focus on defense and clean the glass, Kareem couldn't do it.


Wilt vs. Bill Russell: Wilt. No iffs ands or butts. Russell's offensive game was very limited. According to Russell, himself, Wilt could do Russell's role better than Russell, "Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." (Great Moments in Pro Basketball, by Sam Goldaper, p.24) Russell said this while he was player-coach of the Celtics. Russell could not fulfill as many roles as Wilt, especially if he had to be first option on offense. While some of Russell's teammates try to belittle Wilt by saying if Wilt were a Celtic, they would have won a few titles, but not as many, I have yet to see anybody step forward and say that Russell could have led the Warriors to the title.

For those who say rings are the thing and want to judge a player based on what 12 players do, I ask: is Dennis Rodman better than Karl Malone? Sam Jones better than Michael Jordan? Luc Longley better than Patrick Ewing? Magic Johnson better than Larry Bird (that always makes Celtic fans cringe!)?


Wilt vs. Magic Johnson: I'll take Oscar Robertson over Magic, simply because he can do more things, and I already have Wilt ahead of Oscar. Both are excellent at running teams, but Oscar never had the luxury of playing on teams as deep in talent as the 1980s Lakers. Wilt could score, rebound, and defend better than Magic. Magic could throw more assists, but Wilt led the league in assists, and Magic never came close to leading the league in rebounds. Wilt was also a superior defender.

For those who try to say that rings are things (see Russell), I ask: how many championships did Magic win without a hall of fame center? Was Jordan's Bulls clearly better than Magic's Lakers in 1991, or do you think the injuries to James Worthy and Byron Scott contributed? Do you believe that Mark Aguirre was better than James Worthy in 1989, since his team won the championship? And what about "Tragic Magic" in the 1984 finals?



Wilt vs. Larry Bird: Once again, Wilt reigns over Bird because Wilt was simply more dominating. Larry Bird wasn't nearly the defender that Wilt was. While Larry was crafty on defense, he didn't have the ability to dominate a game on the defensive end. Unless they are going to have a free-throw contest, Wilt is going to dominate nearly every category, even passing, as Bird never led the league in assists.



Wilt vs. Michael Jordan: Once more, Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 asst/game more than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan's took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times. I've seen Jordan make ridiculous claims that Wilt was another Shaq, yet Jordan flaunts his ignorance. Wilt came into the league with a jump shot and used the finger-roll and fade-away as go-to moves, whereas Shaq has never developed these shots and spent years with a very raw offensive game made up of dunks. Wilt was stronger than Shaq, a better leaper, and far more schooled in the fundamentals. Furthermore, Cavs GM Wayne Embry disagrees with Jordan. He says Wilt would have no problems against today's defenses. Nearly every rules change has been made to help the defense. Against these rules, Wilt would clearly dominate.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

[branslowski]

Thou has some nerve, for not only be it arguable that Chamberlain is not the best, but now it is being narrowed down to not even the best center? :roll:

Wilt vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Wilt simply was a more dominant player. He could pour on the offense to higher degrees than Kareem. Wilt is the greatest rebounder in history, and Kareem was a weak rebounder for his size. Wilt was a better passer, and I believe, a better defender. When Wilt was in his final 2 years, which corresponded with Kareem's 3rd and 4th year, Wilt was still making the first team all-defense over Kareem. None of this is a bag on Kareem, because I do believe Kareem is one of the 3 greatest centers in history, but he simply was no Wilt.

Some will try to bring up rings. This is a silly argument, since rings are a team achievement, but still, consider that during Kareem's first 10 years, he won 1 ring, and made the finals 3 times. When Wilt did this, fools call it "choking", but Kareem "didn't have the teammates." Frankly, if Kareem didn't have one of the 2 greatest point guards in history (Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson), then his teams did extremely poorly. In 1975 and 1976, Kareem led them to losing records. In 1977, they were higher-seeded and got swept by Bill Walton's Traiblazers. In 1978, they were finished 4th place in the 5 team Pacific Division. In 1979, they finished 3rd in the 6th team Pacific Division. Did he have teammates? Well, in 1979, he had Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley, and Jamaal Wilkes. Is that talent? So in the 5 seasons without Magic and Oscar, they won only 1 division title, and never won a game past the conference semi-finals. In 1980, Magic Johnson joined the Lakers, and they started winning titles. When Kareem retired in 1989, the Lakers replaced him with Vlade Divac and won 6 MORE games. Food for thought.

So did Kareem win titles? No. The Lakers (and Bucks) won titles. One man teams do not win titles.

Kareem did play longer, but does this make Robert Parish better than Kareem? No. Also, Kareem played less minutes than Wilt. Who couldn't play more games when they are pacing themselves? Kareem played 20 seasons to Wilt's 14. However, if you take Wilt's min/game and turn them into the number of games Kareem played, Wilt played the equivalent of 18 seasons! And consider, in Wilt's final season, he set a record for field goal percentage (72.7%), led the league in rebounds, and was first team all-defense (over Kareem). Wilt retired while he was still a star in the league. When Kareem retired, he wasn't even beating out backup Mychal Thompson in minutes. Kareem was a starter by title-only. He also hacked off Lakers' GM Jerry West by coming to work out of shape, and giving what was considered a half-hearted effort. You can read about this in Kareem's book Kareem. You can also read Kareem try to justify his poor work habit.

So once you slice through the superficial rhetoric, it comes down to who was the most dominant player and the answer was Wilt. He could fill any role on a team. Kareem could not. If you needed someone to focus on defense and clean the glass, Kareem couldn't do it.


Wilt vs. Bill Russell: Wilt. No iffs ands or butts. Russell's offensive game was very limited. According to Russell, himself, Wilt could do Russell's role better than Russell, "Wilt is playing better than I used to -- passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play." (Great Moments in Pro Basketball, by Sam Goldaper, p.24) Russell said this while he was player-coach of the Celtics. Russell could not fulfill as many roles as Wilt, especially if he had to be first option on offense. While some of Russell's teammates try to belittle Wilt by saying if Wilt were a Celtic, they would have won a few titles, but not as many, I have yet to see anybody step forward and say that Russell could have led the Warriors to the title.

For those who say rings are the thing and want to judge a player based on what 12 players do, I ask: is Dennis Rodman better than Karl Malone? Sam Jones better than Michael Jordan? Luc Longley better than Patrick Ewing? Magic Johnson better than Larry Bird (that always makes Celtic fans cringe!)?


Wilt vs. Magic Johnson: I'll take Oscar Robertson over Magic, simply because he can do more things, and I already have Wilt ahead of Oscar. Both are excellent at running teams, but Oscar never had the luxury of playing on teams as deep in talent as the 1980s Lakers. Wilt could score, rebound, and defend better than Magic. Magic could throw more assists, but Wilt led the league in assists, and Magic never came close to leading the league in rebounds. Wilt was also a superior defender.

For those who try to say that rings are things (see Russell), I ask: how many championships did Magic win without a hall of fame center? Was Jordan's Bulls clearly better than Magic's Lakers in 1991, or do you think the injuries to James Worthy and Byron Scott contributed? Do you believe that Mark Aguirre was better than James Worthy in 1989, since his team won the championship? And what about "Tragic Magic" in the 1984 finals?



Wilt vs. Larry Bird: Once again, Wilt reigns over Bird because Wilt was simply more dominating. Larry Bird wasn't nearly the defender that Wilt was. While Larry was crafty on defense, he didn't have the ability to dominate a game on the defensive end. Unless they are going to have a free-throw contest, Wilt is going to dominate nearly every category, even passing, as Bird never led the league in assists.



Wilt vs. Michael Jordan: Once more, Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 asst/game more than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan's took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times. I've seen Jordan make ridiculous claims that Wilt was another Shaq, yet Jordan flaunts his ignorance. Wilt came into the league with a jump shot and used the finger-roll and fade-away as go-to moves, whereas Shaq has never developed these shots and spent years with a very raw offensive game made up of dunks. Wilt was stronger than Shaq, a better leaper, and far more schooled in the fundamentals. Furthermore, Cavs GM Wayne Embry disagrees with Jordan. He says Wilt would have no problems against today's defenses. Nearly every rules change has been made to help the defense. Against these rules, Wilt would clearly dominate.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts. Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

I don't agree with Wilt being better than KAJ and MJ...But Im sold on Abe being a Wilt Fan...I guess I apologize for thinking otherwise...

[catch24]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I don't agree with Wilt being better than KAJ and MJ...But Im sold on Abe being a Wilt Fan...I guess I apologize for thinking otherwise...


Real talk though Abe, You > fatal as a poster :D

[kareem]

gone through all pats on here
branslowski
is the voice of wisdom

[NBASTATMAN]

I love the Jordan stans getting their panties in a bunch and bringing up Kobe in a thread that has nothing to do with him.:oldlol:



Wrong Fatal wrote about kobe vs hakeem...

[NBASTATMAN]

Already been done. Bruce did it...What's also funny is, that most of the ppl in this thread b*tching over some "anti-Clutch" moments, are the same ppl lol'ing in Bruce's "anti-Kobe" threads...Then Bruce's follower's all bunch together and say..."Watch the Kobe nut huggers be pissed by this, lol"..

Then Flame us as Stans for being pissed....

But humm, what do ya know...:rolleyes:

Also, I really don't condone this thread...Because fatal, if their are tons of posters who think your a Jordan hater, why make a thread showing MJ's negative times?



At least Bruce wrote the facts.. He used stats... Fatal uses selective stats ...
EXAMPLE


Mj shot 39 percent if you exclude games 2,3 and 5.... LOL...:lol .... This FATAL is a joke...

If Bruce ever used Selective stats like this Fatal does even us Jordan fans would not condone....:oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Did you even understand my post? Or is Fatal on your mind 24/7?

Point I was making was, that most of the ppl pissed about this, aren't pissed when Bruce just pulls up all of Kobe's Negative moments...

Then you have dude's in here that say.."Oh, well, it's a fact, so who cares if it's negative, stop crying over Kobe".....But yet, their pissed at this thread that also shows fact's of MJ and his rare non clutch moments? DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IAM SAYING???

I don't give a sh!t about what Fatal9 is...I really don't...So please, don't bring him up to me....Just tell me you can comprehend what Iam saying...




No kobe hater uses selective stats like fatal...


MJ shot 39 percent if you take games 2,3, and 5 out... This guy is a joke...

[Fatal9]

At least Bruce wrote the facts.. He used stats... Fatal uses selective stats ...

I go through bruceblitze's Pippen is overrated thread and he omits 1994 completely. But yea, he doesn't use selective stats, what freaking hypocrites. And I've watched the games and know one good game can skew stats, which why from time to time I outline and say that I'm taking one, maybe two, games out to show for most of the series he was shut down. It's the same thing when someone tells me Kobe had a good series against the Rockets, when he really didn't. These crappy know-nothing posters like nbastatman, juju, lbj23clutch and rest of their like actually expect me to reply to their garbage ass posts which half the time I can't even understand? :oldlol:

:oldlol: at people taking this as a Jordan is not clutch thread when everyone knows he is the clutchest to ever play the game. That's not something anyone can even argue but I guess I am not calling Jordan infallible...which translates to hating? I say Jordan didn't deserve '88 DPOY and see the same post from the biggest bulls fan and the most knowledgeable guy on this forum? There's nothing against Jordan, really, it's his fans that are annoying as hell. Kobe fans were like this a couple of years ago, but lately (probably because of the flood of youtube videos of him in that time span) Jordan fans are easily the most irritating.

[Glide2keva]

LOL @ this.

Kobe fans are worse than Lil wayne fans and that's saying something because Wayne fans are clueless.

[Fatal9]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

I don't agree with Wilt being better than KAJ and MJ...But Im sold on Abe being a Wilt Fan...I guess I apologize for thinking otherwise...
He copied and pasted that....no need to applaud...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html

[Fatal9]

BTW, I love how perfectly legitimate things like "Kareem has a strong argument for GOAT" or "Bird deserved the '88 MVP" or "Hakeem deserved the 1988 DPOY" are in some roundabout way implying "Kobe > Jordan". Kobe and Jordan comparisons are old news. Only time you can really compare the two is when Kobe plays well for a decent stretch (like 50-60 games he has as #1 option in playoffs, and that's only scoring too), but MJ's consistency, overall production are no match. Kobe has had stretches in his career where he has been "Jordanesque" (and Jordan fans seem to take this as Kobe = Jordan), but Jordan did it for a decade. Kobe? A couple of playoff rounds.

Just because you think Jordan has a very overrated reputation on the internet (especially in comparison to players like Kareem, Wilt, Bird etc. Most of his fans on ISH are dumb and ignorant as hell too. read the posts of bruceblitz, juju, nbastatman, lbj23clutch, duncanmvp etc etc), it doesn't mean everything is connected to Kobe. You're more obssessed with him than his groupies :oldlol:

This whole "poster X has an agenda against player Y because he doesn't agree with me" is petty, and I am not going to respond to any of these repetitive, non basketball related posts again. Already wasted enough time on these obtuse clowns.

[juju151111]

BTW, I love how perfectly legitimate things like "Kareem has a strong argument for GOAT" or "Bird deserved the '88 MVP" or "Hakeem deserved the 1988 DPOY" are in some roundabout way implying "Kobe > Jordan". Kobe and Jordan comparisons are old news. Only time you can really compare the two is when Kobe plays well for a decent stretch (like 50-60 games he has as #1 option in playoffs, and that's only scoring too), but MJ's consistency, overall production are no match. Kobe has had stretches in his career where he has been "Jordanesque" (and Jordan fans seem to take this as Kobe = Jordan), but Jordan did it for a decade. Kobe? A couple of playoff rounds.

Just because you think Jordan has a very overrated reputation on the internet (especially in comparison to players like Kareem, Wilt, Bird etc. Most of his fans on ISH are dumb and ignorant as hell too. read the posts of bruceblitz, juju, nbastatman, lbj23clutch, duncanmvp etc etc), it doesn't mean everything is connected to Kobe. You're more obssessed with him than his groupies :oldlol:

This whole "poster X has an agenda against player Y because he doesn't agree with me" is petty, and I am not going to respond to any of these repetitive, non basketball related posts again. Already wasted enough time on these obtuse clowns.
LOL You make a thread about hakeem and bring up MJ. You make a thread about Pippen and then say MJ is lucky to have Pippen?? WTF did Mj did have to do with any of those threads?? Everyone can see through your agenda. Just because you made one threads a long time ago saying MJ>>Kobe means noting. You still can't prove how Bird deserved the MVP over MJ in 88 or Hakeem DPOTY

Your whole arguememnt was that Hakeem Defensive player ratings, but yet i don't see you complaining about Gary payton/Ron artest winning it. Centers are more likly to have a better defensive rating.

[Fatal9]

Speak English clown :oldlol:

LOL at my "only" argument being defensive rating when I included that in maybe a sentence or a post. Weren't Jordan fans the one saying "200 steals and 100 blocks" is the reason he should have won DPOY? They sure love talking out of their ass. I bet none of them watched a single Hakeem game that season, or watched more than youtube highlights of Jordan that season. No reasonable, rational person thinks '87-'88 Jordan was as effective defensively as Hakeem and Mark Eaton.

[juju151111]

Speak English clown :oldlol:
LOL I thought you had me on ignore Faktal.:lol

[juju151111]

Speak English clown :oldlol:

LOL at my "only" argument being defensive rating when I included that in maybe a sentence or a post. Weren't Jordan fans the one saying "200 steals and 100 blocks" is the reason he should have won DPOY? They sure love talking out of their ass. I bet none of them watched a single Hakeem game that season, or watched more than youtube highlights of Jordan that season. No reasonable, rational person thinks '87-'88 Jordan was as effective defensively as Hakeem and Mark Eaton.
Ok lets say i agree with your logic. WHo should of won DPOTY in 96/04?? MJ was one of the best defensive players in 88 which is why he won DPOTY.

[NBASTATMAN]

FATAL LOGIC HERE



MJ isn't the greatest if you don't count his first 13 seasons..........:roll:

[NBASTATMAN]

I go through bruceblitze's Pippen is overrated thread and he omits 1994 completely. But yea, he doesn't use selective stats, what freaking hypocrites. And I've watched the games and know one good game can skew stats, which why from time to time I outline and say that I'm taking one, maybe two, games out to show for most of the series he was shut down. It's the same thing when someone tells me Kobe had a good series against the Rockets, when he really didn't. These crappy know-nothing posters like nbastatman, juju, lbj23clutch and rest of their like actually expect me to reply to their garbage ass posts which half the time I can't even understand? :oldlol:

:oldlol: at people taking this as a Jordan is not clutch thread when everyone knows he is the clutchest to ever play the game. That's not something anyone can even argue but I guess I am not calling Jordan infallible...which translates to hating? I say Jordan didn't deserve '88 DPOY and see the same post from the biggest bulls fan and the most knowledgeable guy on this forum? There's nothing against Jordan, really, it's his fans that are annoying as hell. Kobe fans were like this a couple of years ago, but lately (probably because of the flood of youtube videos of him in that time span) Jordan fans are easily the most irritating.



KOBE FANS WERE LIKE THIS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.... :violin:

[branslowski]

At least Bruce wrote the facts.. He used stats... Fatal uses selective stats ...
EXAMPLE


Mj shot 39 percent if you exclude games 2,3 and 5.... LOL...:lol .... This FATAL is a joke...

If Bruce ever used Selective stats like this Fatal does even us Jordan fans would not condone....:oldlol:

Dude, your a double-standard f*cking joke....GTFO saying Bruce doesn't use selective stats....Have you ever even seen his post??...He cherry picks every negative thing Kobe has done...Then you come and suck him off by saying..."So what if he only used the negative ones, they are still facts"

But once someone uses "Cherry picking aka SELECTIVE STATS" against Jordan, now you realize that even though they are facts, they are selective ones...

Lets get to the real deal...You don't give a sh!t if it's done to Kobe...If it's done to Kobe, "Well, its still facts"...But if it's done to MJ, then it's hating.

Your probably the same type of guy who gets pissed at Kobe for pushing Gasol's head on the bench, and call Kobe a terrible teamate for that...But once we show you how MJ punched his teamate in the eye and blacked it, you say, "Well, MJ is a competitor, and he's just pushing his teamate, ultimate winner"...

My god you poster are the most hypocritical dumb f*cks...

[catch24]

He copied and pasted that....no need to applaud...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/wiltrules.html

lol exposed

[Abraham Lincoln]

lol exposed
As if the italics were meaningless. I've linked to that site before in the Charles Barkley thread. Alas, without the name "Jordan" or "Bryant" in the title, you probably didn't click on it. You guys try to hard. Best be to promote thou efforts elsewhere.

[NBASTATMAN]

Dude, your a double-standard f*cking joke....GTFO saying Bruce doesn't use selective stats....Have you ever even seen his post??...He cherry picks every negative thing Kobe has done...Then you come and suck him off by saying..."So what if he only used the negative ones, they are still facts"

But once someone uses "Cherry picking aka SELECTIVE STATS" against Jordan, now you realize that even though they are facts, they are selective ones...

Lets get to the real deal...You don't give a sh!t if it's done to Kobe...If it's done to Kobe, "Well, its still facts"...But if it's done to MJ, then it's hating.

Your probably the same type of guy who gets pissed at Kobe for pushing Gasol's head on the bench, and call Kobe a terrible teamate for that...But once we show you how MJ punched his teamate in the eye and blacked it, you say, "Well, MJ is a competitor, and he's just pushing his teamate, ultimate winner"...

My god you poster are the most hypocritical dumb f*cks...


You are the guy who has called FATAL a good poster... Shutup...


As for Kobe I won't defend him as a person that is the truth.. But if I saw someone write something about his game that I didnt' agree with I would back him... I have done it in the past.. As far as Bruce goes I have also blasted him in the past for harping on kobe.. Even after Kobe won the title Bruce harped on him and I wrote a negative post about Bruce.... You can look it up if you want to ....


As for selective , I am sure no one gets close to FATAL and his


IF you don't count games 2,3, and 5 than MJ shot 39 percent.....

The fact that you can back this faker just shows exactly what kind of poster you are......... At least Bruce never denied being a huge MJ FAN...

[catch24]

As if the italics were meaningless. I've linked to that site before in the Charles Barkley thread. Alas, without the name "Jordan" or "Bryant" in the title, you probably didn't click on it. You guys try to hard. Best be to promote thou efforts elsewhere.

Don't get thy panties in a bunch Abe :violin:

[branslowski]

The fact that you can back this faker just shows exactly what kind of poster you are......... At least Bruce never denied being a huge MJ FAN...


Well for one...Me vs You Poster wise, there is no Debate...Me>>>>You.

I also call Loki a good poster (even though he has bias against Kobe, and is a Jordan nut hugger) and you back him all the time...

Look, f*ck it...I should have never jumped in this "Is Fatal a good poster or not" BS....Because you, Juju, and lbjclutch, are on some kind of Elementary Kid sh!t going around telling ppl not to be cool with Fatal..."Because he doesn't suck MJ's dick to our liking"...

Lame.

[NBASTATMAN]

The difference in pace would have little to no effect on Kareem's scoring numbers (half the time he didn't even cross the half court line when Oscar or someone else would push the ball). In a slower pace, you usually have a more structured offense and the superstar as a result ends up getting just as many touches, if not more (current Cavs system is a good example). PER is a flawed and BS statistic. The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor). PER tells me Wade had the greatest finals performance ever, which is a joke considering it probably wasn't even top 15 by my count. It's a useless statistic that is used by ignorant fans. Also, Kareem's 4-5 blocks in his peak season also don't go towards "PER". Using PER to supposedly end an argument is an excellent way to show you know d!ck all.


Fatal comment , I believe this was written after the Game one of the finals.. Kobe was great that night....


Kobe's PER right now is higher than Jordan's in '92, '96, '97 and could pass '98. That's four out of the six championship years.


Fatal comment after Kobe's PER goes down a bit, still a great performance by kobe bryant in the finals and playoffs.. One of the best so far from a guard....

PER is a flawed and BS statistic

[Fatal9]

Why didn't you bold this part of my post? Do you read only what you want to read?


The only time I use it is when comparing Kobe with someone like say Hakeem. Why? Because everyone knows Hakeem at his peak was more dominant but PER tells us otherwise, and it points out the hypocrisy of the same people who say MJ is unquestionably the best because of PER (who then try to dismiss it as being useless when it works in someone else's favor).

You're really reaching eh. Searching up old threads and everything. Nice to know a stranger named fatal9 is on your mind this fine afternoon :oldlol:

[branslowski]

I hope that post wasn't toward me statman because I really don't give a sh!t anymore about how much of a meany Fatal9 is...

Anyway, using common sense (which most doesn't have) he's saying he doesn't like PER, but, some MJ fans seem to use it to Kill other player's, so he was basically using their own logic and base to own them...

EX. I hate that stupid win shares stat...Duncan21 uses it to say Gasol>>Kobe...So (even though I hate it) I still use it to show that Ray Allen's Win Share>>>KG's, so is Allen a Greater player than KG? NO.

See right there?, Even though I think it's crap, I still used his own simple-minded base logic against him...

Hey, look, I could be dead wrong on this, maybe he did contridict himself..

IMO, PER isn't crap, but as it's creater said.."It isn't the end all be all on who the better player is"...

Bottom lne to ths whole saga...You, Me, Fatal, Catch, juju, exc.. All know MJ>>>Kobe....The funny thing is, besides Bruce, Fatal is the only one Iv'e seen write out a long essay on why MJ is greater than Kobe..Go figure:ohwell:

[NBASTATMAN]

Why didn't you bold this part of my post? Do you read only what you want to read?



You're really reaching eh. Searching up old threads and everything. Nice to know a stranger named fatal9 is on your mind this fine afternoon :oldlol:



OWNED ...... Goodday...................

[NBASTATMAN]

I hope that post wasn't toward me statman because I really don't give a sh!t anymore about how much of a meany Fatal9 is...

Anyway, using common sense (which most doesn't have) he's saying he doesn't like PER, but, some MJ fans seem to use it to Kill other player's, so he was basically using their own logic and base to own them...

EX. I hate that stupid win shares stat...Duncan21 uses it to say Gasol>>Kobe...So (even though I hate it) I still use it to show that Ray Allen's Win Share>>>KG's, so is Allen a Greater player than KG? NO.

See right there?, Even though I think it's crap, I still used his own simple-minded base logic against him...

Hey, look, I could be dead wrong on this, maybe he did contridict himself..

IMO, PER isn't crap, but as it's creater said.."It isn't the end all be all on who the better player is"...

Bottom lne to ths whole saga...You, Me, Fatal, Catch, juju, exc.. All know MJ>>>Kobe....The funny thing is, besides Bruce, Fatal is the only one Iv'e seen write out a long essay on why MJ is greater than Kobe..Go figure:ohwell:



Not for you.. But it just shows what a fake he is... Then he writes about some other bullcrap because he can't find a way out of the situation.. HE GOT OWNED...

[Fatal9]

OWNED ...... Goodday...................
What's with typing "owned" out of the blue?

I showed in the very same post, in what situations I use PER (to point out the hypocrisy of the same fans who use it against a player like Kobe). Then you go on to quote me in an instance where I used it in that exact same type of situation that I mentioned (against MJ fans who use it against Kobe all the time).

I guess I owned myself by pointing out the hypocrisy of Jordan fans when they use PER? Seems like they like to use it when it hurts Kobe but not when it helps him. What's the deal? :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

What's with typing "owned" out of the blue?

I showed in the very same post, in what situations I use PER (to point out the hypocrisy of the same fans who use it against a player like Kobe). Then you go on to quote me in an instance where I used it in that exact same type of situation that I mentioned (against MJ fans who use it against Kobe all the time).

I guess I owned myself by pointing out the hypocrisy of Jordan fans when they use PER? :confusedshrug:



Wrong you used PER in the past to show how great Kobe was playing in this years' playoffs... Then after his PER fell you write that you only use it to show what a bad stat it is.... :violin:

[branslowski]

Not for you.. But it just shows what a fake he is... Then he writes about some other bullcrap because he can't find a way out of the situation.. HE GOT OWNED...

Did he truley? Or is it that you don't understand or fully grasp the contex in which he is displaying his post?

Re-read my Post..Fully...Could he be only using the Stat he hates, to throw the logic back in the face of those who abuse it?...Or does the gullable young lad still screams "Contridiction" or "HaHa Owned"??

Let's just be unbias here and try to understand basic text concept.

[Cyclone112]

Did he truley? Or is it that you don't understand or fully grasp the contex in which he is displaying his post?

Re-read my Post..Fully...Could he be only using the Stat he hates, to throw the logic back in the face of those who abuse it?...Or does the gullable young lad still screams "Contridiction" or "HaHa Owned"??

Let's just be unbias here and try to understand basic text concept.

It's funny how you haven't even seen the posts(yes not just that one) in the thread Fatal9 wrote those PER statements yet you are trying to tell Statman he doesn't grasp context.

[NBASTATMAN]

Did he truley? Or is it that you don't understand or fully grasp the contex in which he is displaying his post?

Re-read my Post..Fully...Could he be only using the Stat he hates, to throw the logic back in the face of those who abuse it?...Or does the gullable young lad still screams "Contridiction" or "HaHa Owned"??

Let's just be unbias here and try to understand basic text concept.


It seems odd to me that he uses PER to back up his case when Kobe is putting up a great PER and then calls it a bs stat after Kobe's PER drops...

[catch24]

Did he truley? Or is it that you don't understand or fully grasp the contex in which he is displaying his post?

Re-read my Post..Fully...Could he be only using the Stat he hates, to throw the logic back in the face of those who abuse it?...Or does the gullable young lad still screams "Contridiction" or "HaHa Owned"??

Let's just be unbias here and try to understand basic text concept.

He doesn't get it dude, lol. I think fatal9 needs to come out of the closet, but he's a decent poster displaying "facts" too - Just like I thought Bruce was prior to the agenda. Funny how these goons concede that Bruce spits "100% facts", of course their not "spinned" like fatal9's. :confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

It's funny how you haven't even seen the posts(yes not just that one) in the thread Fatal9 wrote those PER statements yet you are trying to tell Statman he doesn't grasp context.

Your right..I haven't seen that whole thread...But Statman only showed me that one Paragraph..So gauging off of the post he has shown me, aswell as the post he is upset over, I had to shed light on the real deal concept..

If I show you a pic of a Women's Chest, and they were big..And then said, "Look at those chest, they are small"...You would only comment on what you were shown, and then continue to call me an idiot for saying they were small...But then, out of left field, someone say's to you..."How can you get pissed at Brans? The chick had a ugly face, and fat legs, you don't even know her body, so why are you getting pissed at him?".....Then, you would sit back and say..."Well, I was only shown this, and made my opinion off of it"

Now, I really hope you understood that....If you did, no need for you to get upset and try to attack me...But you should grasp it, and as a man say.."Oh ok, I see what your saying bro"...

[catch24]

Your right..I haven't seen that whole thread...But Statman only showed me that one Paragraph..So gauging off of the post he has shown me, aswell as the post he is upset over, I had to shed light on the real deal concept..

If I show you a pic of a Women's Chest, and they were big..And then said, "Look at those chest, they are small"...You would only comment on what you were shown, and then continue to call me an idiot for saying they were small...But then, out of left field, someone say's to you..."How can you get pissed at Brans? The chick had a ugly face, and fat legs, you don't even know her body, so why are you getting pissed at him?".....Then, you would sit back and say..."Well, I was only shown this, and made my opinion off of it"

Now, I really hope you understood that....If you did, no need for you to get upset and try to attack me...But you should grasp it, and as a man say.."Oh ok, I see what your saying bro"...

LMAO :oldlol: What the sh!!!t? I see what you're saying though..

[branslowski]

It seems odd to me that he uses PER to back up his case when Kobe is putting up a great PER and then calls it a bs stat after Kobe's PER drops...

Look, you could be right...


But it's crazy how your not understanding my points...You can hate a stat, but use it to kill someone with their own logic..

[NBASTATMAN]

It's funny how you haven't even seen the posts(yes not just that one) in the thread Fatal9 wrote those PER statements yet you are trying to tell Statman he doesn't grasp context.



:applause:

Fatal used PER to show Kobe was playing jordan level playoff basketball, he even used PER to show that KOBE's PER was better than many of mj's playoff PERS.. Than he calls it bs after he has no use for it... YEA I don't get it...


Catch to the rescue... Bran and Catch must be the new batman and robin... LOL.. Always ready to help each other... :oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

Look, you could be right...


But it's crazy how your not understanding my points...You can hate a stat, but use it to kill someone with their own logic..


I understand what you are writing.. But he used it to show that Kobe was playing at a mj level.. Most agreed... Than he changes his views.. COMEON...


Many have also used PER to compare players... I am not sure but maybe you have used it in the past as well..

[catch24]

:applause:

Fatal used PER to show Kobe was playing jordan level playoff basketball, he even used PER to show that KOBE's PER was better than many of mj's playoff PERS.. Than he calls it bs after he has no use for it... YEA I don't get it...


Catch to the rescue... Bran and Catch must be the new batman and robin... LOL.. Always ready to help each other... :oldlol:

Juju, pipe down... Back to your sandbox kiddo.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at this moron still not understanding the point.

I've never been a fan of PER. In the post you quoted, I said I use it in scenarios where Kobe has the edge (over Hakeem for example, or show his playoff PER = Jordans) because the same weak argument is used against Kobe in every thread here. So when PER works in Kobe's favor, the haters have to eat it (but they don't like the stat very much in that scenario). It's using their own sh*tty logic against them, and it points out their hypocrisy. The only time I think it is sometimes okay to use is era to era, but I think it penalizes pace way too much, and perhaps position to position.

[branslowski]

LMAO :oldlol: What the sh!!!t? I see what you're saying though..

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I do go too far with my anologies...:oldlol:

[branslowski]

I understand what you are writing.. But he used it to show that Kobe was playing at a mj level.. Most agreed... Than he changes his views.. COMEON...


Many have also used PER to compare players... I am not sure but maybe you have used it in the past as well..

Look, im basing my opinion's from the Quote you showed me, you are obvioulsy not catching on to common sense...Now, if your also judging this from other Fatal9 post in whatever thread that is, then I have no comment on it since I haven't seen it...

[catch24]

:oldlol: at this moron still not understanding the point.

I've never been a fan of PER. In the post you quoted, I said I use it in scenarios where Kobe has the edge (over Hakeem for example, or show his playoff PER = Jordans) because the same weak argument is used against Kobe in every thread here. So when PER works in Kobe's favor, the haters have to eat it (but they don't like the stat very much in that scenario). It's using their own sh*tty logic against them, and it points out their hypocrisy. The only time I think it is sometimes okay to use is era to era, but I think it penalizes pace way too much, and perhaps position to position.

bet you my account he still won't "get it".

[NBASTATMAN]

Yup, which is why it's so interesting to see. When some posters here are going to see Jordan went scoreless in the last 10 minutes of a finals game, they are going to be shocked. I've noticed a lot of players lately (like Lebron, Wade, Kobe etc) get a lot of hate for not performing in the clutch, but you'll see as this thread progresses, even the greatest clutch performer failed tons of times in clutch moments.



Wasn't it you doing the hating on Lebron after the ORLANDO SERIES.. The guy was excellent but I remembeR you pointing out all his weak moments.. I am sure you noticed your own posts.....:lol

[branslowski]

:applause:


Catch to the rescue... Bran and Catch must be the new batman and robin... LOL.. Always ready to help each other... :oldlol:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I hate when ppl get pissed because they are owned and dumb...So, should I say this samething about you and Juju? Mayhems(catch24) is his own person and can leave an opinion anywhere he wants...Don't get pissed because we can spot BS from a mile away..

[branslowski]

Wasn't it you doing the hating on Lebron after the ORLANDO SERIES.. The guy was excellent but I remembeR you pointing out all his weak moments.. I am sure you noticed your own posts.....:lol

As I see your trying to steer the bus anotherway because you just noticed you were wrong...

I think everyone should stop cherry picking negatives to fit their Agenda..I don't care who the f*ck it is...Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Jordan are all GREAT F*CKING PLAYERS WHO DON'T DESERVE THE HATE...

[NBASTATMAN]

Look, im basing my opinion's from the Quote you showed me, you are obvioulsy not catching on to common sense...Now, if your also judging this from other Fatal9 post in whatever thread that is, then I have no comment on it since I haven't seen it...


Exactly... I don't understand how you can write that I am not getting it but you yourself haVE not seen the context in which FATAL made that comment.. I should have clarified it .. But FATAL knows the truth so I posted it for him.. I also wrote that I posted it for him and not for you...
So I did not need to clarify it... He knows when used it ......

[juju151111]

Juju, pipe down... Back to your sandbox kiddo.
WTF how did i get into this?

[juju151111]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I hate when ppl get pissed because they are owned and dumb...So, should I say this samething about you and Juju? Mayhems(catch24) is his own person and can leave an opinion anywhere he wants...Don't get pissed because we can spot BS from a mile away..
Show me one thread where i got owned. I can list threads Fatal got owned in.

[lbj23clutch]

Show me one thread where i got owned. I can list threads Fatal got owned in.
Ignore Brans, he's a ****ing dumbass.

[NBASTATMAN]

He doesn't get it dude, lol. I think fatal9 needs to come out of the closet, but he's a decent poster displaying "facts" too - Just like I thought Bruce was prior to the agenda. Funny how these goons concede that Bruce spits "100% facts", of course their not "spinned" like fatal9's. :confusedshrug:


I am clearly writing that his guy is a faker.. Bran is defending his actions ,yet has not seen in what context they were written...Bran asked if that post, THE PER POST, was for him and I wrote no... ... Bran didn't know in what context they were written.. Neither did catch.. Catch being Brans' robin came to the rescue and wrote that I DIDN'T understand..But neither BRAN nor Catch wrote those PER posts , FATAL DID, so they wouldn't understand where I was coming from... Like I wrote to BRan that post was not for him... He should have ended it there... Because he didn't know in which context those words were used.. But FATAL DID....


FATAL CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS... And CATCH DOES TOO... LOOK AT THE BOLD... My posts were to show he was a FAKER AND CATCH HAS WRITTEN THE SAME.........THANKYOU GOODDAY.....

[NBASTATMAN]

Ignore Brans, he's a ****ing dumbass.


YEA HIS TWIN CATCH TOO... :roll:

[juju151111]

WTF is wrong with you guy's not knowing common sense?...I was talking to NBASTATMAN...Meaning, when he get's owned, he talks like me and mayhems are twin bro's typing on the same computer...When I said JUJU, that ment, how you and NBASTATMAN join up together to fight evil duers...SMH
oh I thought you were trying to say i get owned. How do i team up with NBASTATMAN through. I don't team up with anyone. What i don't get is why you feel the need to defend a troll.

[NBASTATMAN]

WTF is wrong with you guy's not knowing common sense?...I was talking to NBASTATMAN...Meaning, when he get's owned, he talks like me and mayhems are twin bro's typing on the same computer...When I said JUJU, that ment, how you and NBASTATMAN join up together to fight evil duers...SMH


You write this but I clearly wrote that that PER post was for FATAL ... You are a idiot... Because you should have ended it their.. Since only FATAL would know in what context he wrote that PER POST.....

bran wrote:

I hope that post wasn't toward me statman because I really don't give a sh!t anymore about how much of a meany Fatal9 is...

I wrote :

Not for you.. But it just shows what a fake he is... Then he writes about some other bullcrap because he can't find a way out of the situation.. HE GOT OWNED...

[glidedrxlr22]

Where's the kobe anti-clutch log. That was a thing of beauty and very extensive!:rockon:

[juju151111]

F*ck it man...If Fatal is a troll to you...Then so be it...

Have fun with that....Im me....
The only person who believe he is not a troll is you/roundball.

[branslowski]

You write this but I clearly wrote that that PER post was for FATAL ... You are a idiot... Because you should have ended it their.. Since only FATAL would know in what context he wrote that PER POST.....

bran wrote:

I hope that post wasn't toward me statman because I really don't give a sh!t anymore about how much of a meany Fatal9 is...

I wrote :

Not for you.. But it just shows what a fake he is... Then he writes about some other bullcrap because he can't find a way out of the situation.. HE GOT OWNED...

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Alls I did is freely respond to THAT quote where he was talking about PEr...I gave you the reason why he would use a stat he hates...To throw the Stans logic in their face...He also explain thats why he used it...You don't beleive it, so then owell..It's done. Don't care......Are you being a moron on purpose?

[catch24]

YEA HIS TWIN CATCH TOO... :roll:

one day you're on the piece telling me i'm a good poster and great laker fan, the other day you call me "robin" thinking I defend brans? Rofl, you're definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed. I don't need to see what he wrote prior, the debate is about PER and shady biased agenda ridden comments. Not hard to figure out Einstein, I mean statfraud, I mean statman. You're no better than fatal9. Both closet fans, with agenda written all over the text. Stop being a hypocritical dbag and re-read the posts. You came at me, and now I'm bringing the heat and you can't take it. You resorted into calling me brans at one time, comical.

[NBASTATMAN]

The only person who believe he is not a troll is you/roundball.


Catch who is BRan's robin clearly thinks Fatal is a spinner... Check his comments




Just like I thought Bruce was prior to the agenda. Funny how these goons concede that Bruce spits "100% facts", of course their not "spinned" like fatal9's.