So Just How Good Was Tracy McGrady in (02-03)

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Can somebody tell me just how good he is or give me a comparison or something, because for some reason i can't really remember it. It might do with his injuries the last 4 years.
Was he better than Prime Kobe? a Scottie Pippen on Steroids?

Ok he was 6'8 leaner faster jumper higher than i have ever seen him. I am looking at his stats

32 PPG 6.5 rebs 5.5 assists 46% FG 39% 3pt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytfry2VaFGg&feature=related even dropped 62 points one game.



http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/2093/2047359040045260096S500x500Q85.jpg


Tell Me Just How Good HE WAS thanx. Go!

[MrUnstopable]

Better then Kobe but he let Kobe surpass him... just that simple..

[D-Rose]

Not as good as 05-06 Kobe or 08-09 Wade.

[Godfather]

If he was better than Kobe he would have gotten out of the first round.

[MrUnstopable]

Not as good as 05-06 Kobe or 08-09 Wade.

08-09 Wade is better then both

honestly T-Mac had everything that Kobe had and more... more athletic... better shooter... taller... all of it.. but he didn't have the most important thing...

[MrUnstopable]

If he was better than Kobe he would have gotten out of the first round.

Thats BS he faced superior TEAMS not the one man show that he had going in Orlando... If Grant Hill doesn't get hurt we aren't talking about this right now...

[D-Rose]

08-09 Wade is better then both

honestly T-Mac had everything that Kobe had and more... more athletic... better shooter... taller... all of it.. but he didn't have the most important thing...
http://www.ynhh.org/cardiacRW/heart/exterior_heart_anatomy.jpg

[MrUnstopable]

http://www.ynhh.org/cardiacRW/heart/exterior_heart_anatomy.jpg

The sad truth...

[IInvented]

better than Kobe..

[AirJordan23]

Thats BS he faced superior TEAMS not the one man show that he had going in Orlando... If Grant Hill doesn't get hurt we aren't talking about this right now...
He was also up 3-1 on the Pistons that year and stank it up in the next 3 games. Kneeslack has absolutely no excuse for that one and those 3 games were blowouts.

[MrUnstopable]

He was also up 3-1 on the Pistons that year and stank it up in the next 3 games. Kneeslack has absolutely no excuse for that one and those 3 games were blowouts.

I guess he wasn't facing the 1st seed while they were the 8th seed... Go look at each teams roster and tell my t-mac didn't overachieve with those guys..

[oballers4life]

Can somebody tell me just how good he is or give me a comparison or something, because for some reason i can't really remember it. It might do with his injuries the last 4 years.
Was he better than Prime Kobe? a Scottie Pippen on Steroids?

Ok he was 6'8 leaner faster jumper higher than i have ever seen him. I am looking at his stats

32 PPG 6.5 rebs 5.5 assists 46% FG 39% 3pt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytfry2VaFGg&feature=related even dropped 62 points one game.



http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/2093/2047359040045260096S500x500Q85.jpg


Tell Me Just How Good HE WAS thanx. Go!


very

[beasted86]

Best perimeter player in the league... hands down during 02-03.

He litterally carried that team into the playoffs, and did it without complaining, unlike Kobe.

[MrUnstopable]

Best perimeter player in the league... hands down during 02-03.

He litterally carried that team into the playoffs, and did it without complaining, unlike Kobe.

Yep and there wasn't much he could do... If he did complain one bit he got shipped off... Kobe complains and he gets Gasol for nothing...

[Godfather]

He doesn't complain because he didn't give a ****.

He was eliminated in Orlando.

He was eliminated in Houston.

The one year he was injured his team made it out of the first round.

[AirJordan23]

I guess he wasn't facing the 1st seed while they were the 8th seed... Go look at each teams roster and tell my t-mac didn't overachieve with those guys..

That isn't the point. Point is great players find a way to win. McGrady couldn't and he didn't even show up. It's one thing that the star player shows up and the supporting cast doesn't. McGrady didn't show up himself so you can forget about winning the series. Detroit was the better team on paper. No doubt about it. But, when you're up 3-1 and lay an egg on the court, you'll get bashed for it. You're the star player and take the most blame for it. Heck, I remember kneeslack talkin about how he was finally about to advance to the second round yet he totally disappeared late into the series. Man that couldn't up back up his words. There is no excuse for that series. None. You would have a point if McGrady actually showed up but he didn't.

[MrUnstopable]

He doesn't complain because he didn't give a ****.

He was eliminated in Orlando.

He was eliminated in Houston.

The one year he was injured his team made it out of the first round.

To his defense that was the weakest team they ever faced too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfurCV1FDpM&NR=1

[Godfather]

To his defense that was the weakest team they ever faced too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfurCV1FDpM&NR=1

To his defense his team also took the eventual champions to 6 games (half the series without Yao).

13 points in 30 seconds or a second round appearance...you decide.

[Jacks3]

2nd best perimeter player in the league behind Kobe.
Top 3 overall.

[Lebron23]

Tracy Mcgrady = Pistol Pete Maravich

[AirJordan23]

2nd best perimeter player in the league behind Kobe.
Top 3 overall.
He wasn't better than Shaq, Duncan, Garnett or Kobe.

[Godfather]

2nd best perimeter player in the league behind Kobe.
Top 3 overall.
Iverson went further on an equally ****ty team.

And he wasn't in the top 3...

[Jacks3]

T-Mac in 02-03? Definitely a top 3 player overall. Shaq was not his usual self that year( only played 64 games and was battling injuries all year), and he was better then Garnett imo.
1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Mac

[Q.E.C]

To his defense that was the weakest team they ever faced too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfurCV1FDpM&NR=1

The Rockets overall talent under Van Gundy was a joke. Its a shame that it took 12 years for him to get a team surrounded with real talent. Look at the other Rockets players in that game....terrible.

[AirJordan23]

T-Mac in 02-03? Definitely a top 3 player overall. Shaq was not his usual self that year( only played 64 games and was battling injuries all year), and he was better then Garnett imo.
1.Duncan
2.Kobe
3.Mac

Shaq actually played 67 games and put up 28/11/3/2 and LA went 45-22 in the games he played. They were 5-10 in the games he didn't play. That should tell you his impact right there and it goes beyond stats too since he's such an intimidating presence in the paint. Garnett led the Wolves to a 51-31 record and put up 23/13/6/1.4/1.6. Naturally, his defensive impact was far more than McGrady's since he controlled the paint, altered shots etc. Also, his team was pretty average and he played in the tougher conference.

[AirJordan23]

Iverson went further on an equally ****ty team.

And he wasn't in the top 3...
I wouldn't say Iverson was better than McGrady that year. Iverson was probably around top 6-8.

[IInvented]

Tracy Mcgrady>>>>>>>>> Pistol Pete Maravich


fixed

[goldenryan]

Not as good as 05-06 Kobe or 08-09 Wade.
he was better than 08-09 wade.

[phoenix18]

http://www.ynhh.org/cardiacRW/heart/exterior_heart_anatomy.jpg
:roll: All of you guys are idiots. When did T-mac show a lack of heart? Is it because he doesnt scream at commentators after making a jumper? Is it because he doesnt practice how he looks so that he can perfectly display his arrogance and selfishness on the court? Seriously, T-Mac injury free, would have been better than Kobe and anyone here who says otherwise is a liar.

[magnax1]

He was easily better than Kobe in his prime, but did not have the same sort of motivation.

[phoenix18]

He was easily better than Kobe in his prime, but did not have the same sort of motivation.
Why do you say that? Its funny how you can throw around these accusations and say that Tmac didnt have Kobe's heart even though Kobe has quit on his team. The fact is this, Kobe was lucky to have a great coach and great teammates and stay healthy.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: at T-Mac being 'easily' better then Bryant. It was actually very close either way.:rolleyes:

[15yearmagicfan]

Best in the league that year, no question. The fact that he got that team into the playoffs was a miracle itself, look at the roster he had! They were horrible, non of which were in the nba after that year for the most part. Throw in doc rivers, the most overrated coach of all time and there you have it. He was unstoppable. His teammates coudnt make a local y league team and he took them to the playoffs. He took way too much heat for 'giving up' on his team but look what happened to his body after those years of sacrificing himself. It fell apart at a very young age even NBA standards. He had heart, but no backing by managements lack of willing to spend to get teammates and the grant hill fiasco. Its really sad, just as much as penny's falling off... well close to that anyway.

[AirJordan23]

He was easily better than Kobe in his prime, but did not have the same sort of motivation.
No, he wasn't and this is coming from a Kobe hater. Stastically speaking you can argue peak McGrady was better but when you go beyond the stats, he wasn't.

[Clifton]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

But having great teams and great coaches around him from day one has *made* him a winner, both in terms of results and reputation. Tmac would have won just as much as Kobe did in his shoes.

Tim Duncan is a flat, emotionless, offensively passive player. Yet he is considered a winner of the first order, and why? Two reasons. One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does. Two is that he is a part of the greatest organization in recent sports history. From day one of his career he has been in the best possible situation. Perfect roleplayers. Rookie year was the final piece of the puzzle for an already good team. Top 3 coach in NBA history... all these things made him what he is today. And he is that - if you took away all these things and stuck him on LA Clippers he'd still be a "winner" (though not to the same extent) but if he had been on LA Clippers from day one who on earth knows how he would have turned out?

Tmac consistently showed up in the playoffs, and in a big way. He never had the team, the organization, he coach. There's really no reason to believe that given Gregg Popovich and all that other stuff, he couldn't have won a few championships? I'm not suggesting he's Duncan's equal, or even could be, because Duncan's defensive impact is huge. But Tmac gets underappreciated. All these guys are considered losers, and then they get some decent teammates, win a ring or come close, and all of a sudden they're great leaders with tremendous intangibles (Pierce, Garnett). Fans are fickle.

[MrUnstopable]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

But having great teams and great coaches around him from day one has *made* him a winner, both in terms of results and reputation. Tmac would have won just as much as Kobe did in his shoes.

Tim Duncan is a flat, emotionless, offensively passive player. Yet he is considered a winner of the first order, and why? Two reasons. One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does. Two is that he is a part of the greatest organization in recent sports history. From day one of his career he has been in the best possible situation. Perfect roleplayers. Rookie year was the final piece of the puzzle for an already good team. Top 3 coach in NBA history... all these things made him what he is today. And he is that - if you took away all these things and stuck him on LA Clippers he'd still be a "winner" (though not to the same extent) but if he had been on LA Clippers from day one who on earth knows how he would have turned out?

Tmac consistently showed up in the playoffs, and in a big way. He never had the team, the organization, he coach. There's really no reason to believe that given Gregg Popovich and all that other stuff, he couldn't have won a few championships? I'm not suggesting he's Duncan's equal, or even could be, because Duncan's defensive impact is huge. But Tmac gets underappreciated. All these guys are considered losers, and then they get some decent teammates, win a ring or come close, and all of a sudden they're great leaders with tremendous intangibles (Pierce, Garnett). Fans are fickle.

Wow powerful post...

[Bigsmoke]

how many players that are better than Kobe that led the league in scoring but still have his team the worst in the NBA?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2004.html

[magnax1]

No, he wasn't and this is coming from a Kobe hater. Stastically speaking you can argue peak McGrady was better but when you go beyond the stats, he wasn't.
That's basically what I'm Trying to say, He was better in the plain old I can score and rebound and pass type basketball but didn't have the same sort of motivation of a I want to win no matter what type attitude (He had it at times but never showed it consistantly)

[MrUnstopable]

how many players that are better than Kobe that led the league in scoring but still have his team the worst in the NBA?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2004.html

his team? didn't know he controlled management.. look at those scrubs he played with.. Andrew DeClerq was their C!!

[goldenryan]

imagine him and howard playing together. thanks orlando management:banghead:

[MrUnstopable]

imagine him and howard playing together. thanks orlando management:banghead:

I know.. He wanted so bad to play with a dominant big man that he let him get away... at first I resented Tracy for doing it but can you blame him? They had a hockey guy as the GM maybe the worst in the history of the NBA in Weisbrod...

[Clifton]

how many players that are better than Kobe that led the league in scoring but still have his team the worst in the NBA?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ORL/2004.html
In order, the best players other than Tmac on that team were named, Juwan Howard, Drew Gooden (both play the same position), Deshawn Stevenson (plays the same position as Tmac) (26 games only), TYRONN LUE, GORDAN GIRICEK, shall I continue?

The only players in the league today who could take that team to 30 or so wins are prime Shaq, prime Duncan, and Lebron. And that's assuming they'd be the same players with such trash around them. Nobody's comparing Tmac with those guys... those guys are looking at top-10 all time. Tmac if he had been healthy would be looking at top 20 or 30.


Andrew DeClerq was their C!!
:roll: yeah I remember that guy! man... memories. Watch Tmac break double digits with that team was impressive

[Bigsmoke]

imagine him and howard playing together. thanks orlando management:banghead:

McGrady was playing with Yao... didnt get that many accomplishments

[EMERE]

"Kobe was lucky to have a great coach and great teammates and stay healthy"By Phoenix :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll So that applies to all the greats too?:no: they were just lucky they had good teammates and good health? Tracy just didn't had the tools to be one of the greats and thats the truth, sure he was amazing in 02/03 but he i bet you that he didn't have the desire to be one of the greats like kobe did.

[MrUnstopable]

McGrady was playing with Yao... didnt get that any accomplishments

Yao Ming is the biggest show nothing on the big stage super star maybe in NBA history.. the guy just crumbles under pressure..

[Clifton]

"Kobe was lucky to have a great coach and great teammates and stay healthy"By Phoenix :roll So that applies to all the greats too? they were just lucky they had good teammates and good health? Tracy just didn't had the tools to be one of the greats and thats the truth, sure he was amazing in 02/03 but he i bet you that he didn't have the desire to be one of the greats like kobe did.
You have absolutely no ground to stand on to make that claim. How do you know which causes the other? Prime Tmac never underachieved, he never failed to show up in the playoffs, he made his teammates better, was an all around threat, clutch... always lost to superior teams.

Charles Barkley gave up several series he should have won and never won a ring, but you don't see anyone hesitating to call him top 20 all-time, and it's because HE WAS HEALTHY and had teammates who allowed him to be seriously competitive.

[goldenryan]

McGrady was playing with Yao... didnt get that any accomplishments
imagine a motivated t-mac, a healthy grant , and howard. you wouldn't pay to see that team?

[Bigsmoke]

imagine a motivated t-mac, a healthy grant , and howard. you wouldn't pay to see that team?

sure!

[J23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZljhMFWUFAo
Video from him in Orlando. His dunks were ridic.

[Big#50]

Better than anyone in the league but Duncan.

[phoenix18]

"Kobe was lucky to have a great coach and great teammates and stay healthy"By Phoenix :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll So that applies to all the greats too?:no: they were just lucky they had good teammates and good health? Tracy just didn't had the tools to be one of the greats and thats the truth, sure he was amazing in 02/03 but he i bet you that he didn't have the desire to be one of the greats like kobe did.
First of all, learn how to quote. Secondly, watch more sports. Look at Barry Sanders, arguably the best football player ever. He never had good teammates. Did that mean he wasnt great? No, he just got a raw deal. Now, look at Walter Payton, arguably the greatest football player ever, he had one of the greatest teams ever. Was he lucky to have those teams? Yes. He could have easily played with mediocre teams, having to have to produce every game for his team to have a chance. That is what I meant by being lucky to have a great team. Now, lets look at the injury side of the argument. Look at Grant Hill. Great talent and was one of the top players in the league at a young age. Then his ankle gave up over and over. Was it his fault? No, he was unlucky and just had a bad break. For you to say that Tracy didnt have the tools to be great is absurd and I can tell that you dont see greatness unless ESPN and ABC shove it down your throat. T-Mac is a great player that could guard anyone from PG to PF and a scoring machine. Good passer and a good rebounder and a genuine will to win. He hasnt been out of the first round you are going to say. Do you remember that many of the times he had reached the playoffs, it was because of his incredible play why they were there? He made his teams in Orlando way better than we ever thought they were going to be. In Houston, just look at the roster, that should tell you the story. They have made the bench much better and a lot of players have gotten confident which propelled them to a 7 game series against the Lakers. It seems that if some players last name doesnt look like James,Wade or Bryant, they get slighted and disrespected day in and day out.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

I don't get where the whole McGrady has no heart thing comes from, is because he never made it out of the first round? I guess Grant Hill has no heart either.

Is it because he was injured so much? I guess Hill, Penny, Yao have no heart either.

Go look at his playoff games, and tell me that he didn't give it his all every time. People just go along with the "he has no heart" thing, without looking at the facts. IMO he "choked" in the playoffs twice, in the series against Detroit and the series against Dallas, even neither were entirely his fault.

[phoenix18]

I don't get where the whole McGrady has no heart thing comes from, is because he never made it out of the first round? I guess Grant Hill has no heart either.

Is it because he was injured so much? I guess Hill, Penny, Yao have no heart either.

Go look at his playoff games, and tell me that he didn't give it his all every time. People just go along with the "he has no heart" thing, without looking at the facts. IMO he "choked" in the playoffs twice, in the series against Detroit and the series against Dallas, even neither were entirely his fault.
I agree. I can sense that most posters here dont really watch basketball at all. Now about Mcgrady choking, didnt they get ripped off against dallas? Also, you cannot expect someone to carry a team all season long like he did in Orlando.

[Rockets(T-mac)]

I agree. I can sense that most posters here dont really watch basketball at all. Now about Mcgrady choking, didnt they get ripped off against dallas? Also, you cannot expect someone to carry a team all season long like he did in Orlando. Yeah there were some shady calls and that series was in that investigation last summer. But when you're up 3-1 no matter what you are expected to win, I don't really blame McGrady too much, but in that situation you are going to get the blame.

And come play monopoly.

[el_locoteee]

He was also up 3-1 on the Pistons that year and stank it up in the next 3 games. Kneeslack has absolutely no excuse for that one and those 3 games were blowouts.

Let me refresh your memory.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_phxlal.html

[sirkeelma]

Injury Injury Injury.

That explains it all.

[Lebron23]

Injury Injury Injury.

That explains it all.


+1

[clayton]

better than Kobe..
Better than the guy MJ rank as #2, right behind him? No.

[brantonli]

That isn't the point. Point is great players find a way to win. McGrady couldn't and he didn't even show up. It's one thing that the star player shows up and the supporting cast doesn't. McGrady didn't show up himself so you can forget about winning the series. Detroit was the better team on paper. No doubt about it. But, when you're up 3-1 and lay an egg on the court, you'll get bashed for it. You're the star player and take the most blame for it. Heck, I remember kneeslack talkin about how he was finally about to advance to the second round yet he totally disappeared late into the series. Man that couldn't up back up his words. There is no excuse for that series. None. You would have a point if McGrady actually showed up but he didn't.

Unless my memory is failing me, wasn't Kobe himself up 3-1 against the Suns in a similar situation....and....oh, what happened next? He got eliminated.

[Indian guy]

He was VERY good, but I'd still easily rank that 02-03 version of his below Kobe, LeBron and Wade's best seasons this decade. The problem with T-Mac was that he was never a high intangibles guy. He didn't contribute much beyond the boxscore.

[Killer_Instinct]

:roll: All of you guys are idiots. When did T-mac show a lack of heart? Is it because he doesnt scream at commentators after making a jumper? Is it because he doesnt practice how he looks so that he can perfectly display his arrogance and selfishness on the court? Seriously, T-Mac injury free, would have been better than Kobe and anyone here who says otherwise is a liar.


Or a stan. Am I right? And for the record, I understand your post has nothing to do with your resentment for Kobe.

[phoenix18]

Or a stan. Am I right? And for the record, I understand your post has nothing to do with your resentment for Kobe.
I do not have any resentment for the balls that your abode sits on. I am telling the truth. T-Mac would have gotten better and is a mismatch for almost everyone in the league. Are you telling me that if T-Mac would have stayed healthy, he wouldnt be better than Kobe?

[branslowski]

I do not have any resentment for the balls that your abode sits on. I am telling the truth. T-Mac would have gotten better and is a mismatch for almost everyone in the league. Are you telling me that if T-Mac would have stayed healthy, he wouldnt be better than Kobe?

If he did stay healthy...How would know for a FACT that he would be better than Kobe??...Also, I love how your trying to push your "If" hypothical as a fact and then name call someone who has a different opinion than your "If" theory...

"If I was tall, I would be the GOAT basketball player, and if you don't agree, your a dootie head"....:oldlol:

[phoenix18]

If he did stay healthy...How would know for a FACT that he would be better than Kobe??...Also, I love how your trying to push your "If" hypothical as a fact and then name call someone who has a different opinion than your "If" theory...

"If I was tall, I would be the GOAT basketball player, and if you don't agree, your a dootie head"....:oldlol:
You actually thought that was funny? Dootie head? Learning new words everyday, huh? How do I know, because T-Mac was better than Kobe then. That's how I know. If he didnt improve he would still give today's Kobe a run for his money. Come on.

[branslowski]

You actually thought that was funny? Dootie head? Learning new words everyday, huh? How do I know, because T-Mac was better than Kobe then. That's how I know. If he didnt improve he would still give today's Kobe a run for his money. Come on.

Oh god...:oldlol:

Im done arguing "If's".....Kobe>McGrady...Reality Fact...

http://str8nyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/kobe.jpg

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/tracy_mcgrady_second_round_virgin.jpg
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0504/page2_g_tmacts_400.jpg

[andgar923]

I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.

Clifton made an excellent post, one in which I whole heartedly agree and often make the same case, which is..... Kobe has been put in a privileged situation unlike most players.

I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.

Now.... put Tmac or a few other players in his shoes from day 1.... and we'd be probably talking about them.

Hell.... its not too hard to imagine Wade in his shoes, and know the outcome will be almost the same... or Penny's.

And that's what Kobe stans can't comprehend when they cry....... "Well its double standards for MJ and Kobe"

OF COURSE ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!

One was basically given everything, while the other had to make his opportunities. Its like comparing a spoiled rich kid and a low class kid, the standards are different.

[Killer_Instinct]

I do not have any resentment for the balls that your abode sits on. I am telling the truth. T-Mac would have gotten better and is a mismatch for almost everyone in the league. Are you telling me that if T-Mac would have stayed healthy, he wouldnt be better than Kobe?


I have a hard time believing that. The main perimeter player you attack is Bryant. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with not liking a player. It just gets so old seeing posts stating X, X, X, X is better than Kobe, but X, X, X happened and Kobe lucked out. You would never think this was the guy with four championship rings and a F-MVP. Or the guy who scored 50 four straight times(only behind Wilt). Or won an MVP. Or outscored teams by himself. Or had the (9/11th?) highest PPG total in history. I have not even scratched the surface, and almost every modern perimeter player Kobe is compared to lacks 3/4th of his accomplishments.


As to your quetion, no. He wouldn't. Kobe's work ethic pushed him past McGrady. Kobe was not the better player until 02-03. His mental need to be better than everyone is what made him. He was never as physicaly gifted as Vince/McGrady, yet he as accomplished so much more. Why is that? Injuries? The disrespect in that is discusting. Why make it sound as if he never had to work to become the best perimeter player, and instead the other guys were picked off one by one like a game of 'Guess Who?'

He became so much more explosive due to his drive/selfishness/motivation, and McGrady missing a strained back or two wouldn't change this.

When dealing with Kobe, we dwell on "Ifs," and "Buts". Facts are that the man bcame argurbly the best swingman of the decade, and arguably top 10. Why we hold him to other players injures/shortcomings boggles the mind. They all play the same game, and barring rings, MVPs, and playoff stats, could be every much equal to Kobe even if they played with a D Leaguers their entire career. And that's Brants fault?

[phoenix18]

I have a hard time believing that. The main perimeter player you attack is Bryant. Honestly, there's nothing wrong with not liking a player. It just gets so old seeing posts stating X, X, X, X is better than Kobe, but X, X, X happened and Kobe lucked out. You would never think this was the guy with four championship rings and a F-MVP. Or the guy who scored 50 four straight times(only behind Wilt). Or won an MVP. Or outscored teams by himself. Or had the (9/11th?) highest PPG total in history. I have not even scratched the surface, and almost every modern perimeter player Kobe is compared to lacks 3/4th of his accomplishments.


U serious? Quote me. Prove it. Where are these posts that player X,X,X,X is better than Kobe. Please. Thats your only defense.

[YAWN]

U serious? Quote me. Prove it. Where are these posts that player X,X,X,X is better than Kobe. Please. Thats your only defense.

ill vouch for him. You're typically found in kobe threads giving your views which never seem to portray kobe in a positive light. Whether its subconscious or not, i dont know.. but its there.

As for this thread. He was really good that season. that one year he had was on par with some of kobes, wades, and lebrons.

[Godfather]

http://leblogjames.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/participation-award.jpg

[dyna]

Better then Kobe but he let Kobe surpass him... just that simple..
:cheers:

[ukballer]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

But having great teams and great coaches around him from day one has *made* him a winner, both in terms of results and reputation. Tmac would have won just as much as Kobe did in his shoes.

Tim Duncan is a flat, emotionless, offensively passive player. Yet he is considered a winner of the first order, and why? Two reasons. One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does. Two is that he is a part of the greatest organization in recent sports history. From day one of his career he has been in the best possible situation. Perfect roleplayers. Rookie year was the final piece of the puzzle for an already good team. Top 3 coach in NBA history... all these things made him what he is today. And he is that - if you took away all these things and stuck him on LA Clippers he'd still be a "winner" (though not to the same extent) but if he had been on LA Clippers from day one who on earth knows how he would have turned out?

Tmac consistently showed up in the playoffs, and in a big way. He never had the team, the organization, he coach. There's really no reason to believe that given Gregg Popovich and all that other stuff, he couldn't have won a few championships? I'm not suggesting he's Duncan's equal, or even could be, because Duncan's defensive impact is huge. But Tmac gets underappreciated. All these guys are considered losers, and then they get some decent teammates, win a ring or come close, and all of a sudden they're great leaders with tremendous intangibles (Pierce, Garnett). Fans are fickle.

Wonderful post.

Yep, I'm a T-Mac homer (please, hate on me, I like it). It was just yesterday I was thinking about how good T-Mac's career in these last couple of years could have been had it not been for injury.

[CantStop]

He was easily better than Kobe in his prime, but did not have the same sort of motivation.

What? To say he's better is one thing but easily better? Kobe haters have gone way too far...

I love how people use IFs. If Kobe was main option for his whole career, he'd be the GOAT scorer and if you disagree, you're a joke poster.

[KoolKat]

He wasn't better than 03' Kobe.

[Bodhi]

There was a point in the game where T-Mac was better than Kobe. There was a point when Vince was arguably better than Kobe. But they faded away in a flurry of early exits and disapointing seasons while Kobe went on to win. Look how many SGs have been compared to Kobe over his career and he's eventually passed all of them.

You can could of, would of, should of for probably 10 different players but it really doesn't matter. Kobe is going to be remembered as a top 10 all time player and none of those guys are even top 25.

[ukballer]

What? To say he's better is one thing but easily better? Kobe haters have gone way too far...

Like I said, I'm a T-Mac fan, but I wouldn't ever say he was 'better'. Maybe on a par. Note I'm talking about PRIME T-Mac, scoring machine, dunking on everyone, fully healthy, 62 points v the Wizards T-Mac. I would put that T-Mac on an equal pedestal with Kobe.

[CantStop]

Like I said, I'm a T-Mac fan, but I wouldn't ever say he was 'better'. Maybe on a par. Note I'm talking about PRIME T-Mac, scoring machine, dunking on everyone, fully healthy, 62 points v the Wizards T-Mac. I would put that T-Mac on an equal pedestal with Kobe.

I'm a Kobe fan and I'll agree. T-Mac in that season was a MONSTER. I'd give Kobe the slight edge because of heart and defense but they were REALLY REALLY close. But I just don't understand when someone says player A was better than player B when we all know they were virtually tied.

[CantStop]

There was a point in the game where T-Mac was better than Kobe. There was a point when Vince was arguably better than Kobe. But they faded away in a flurry of early exits and disapointing seasons while Kobe went on to win. Look how many SGs have been compared to Kobe over his career and he's eventually passed all of them.

You can could of, would of, should of for probably 10 different players but it really doesn't matter. Kobe is going to be remembered as a top 10 all time player and none of those guys are even top 25.

There was never a point Vince was better than Kobe.. **** outta here.

[The Big Skinny]

http://www.ynhh.org/cardiacRW/heart/exterior_heart_anatomy.jpg

Agreed except for the fact that Kobe is a better shooter, not gonna lie.

[Bodhi]

There was never a point Vince was better than Kobe.. **** outta here.

He was in the 2000 regular season. Kobe really didn't break out until the playoffs and become clearly better.

[Killer_Instinct]

U serious? Quote me. Prove it. Where are these posts that player X,X,X,X is better than Kobe. Please. Thats your only defense.


ISH has gotten a search function? I'm not going to go hunting for your posts when everyone with eyes can see in any player vs. Kobe thread, if you post, your stance is always anti-Bryant. If so and so had Shaq, if so and so played with Phil coaching ext. And that's it? Throughout my whole post, thats what you choose to quote, when you and I both know the answer? Please tell me that's not all you're coming with.

[lxlHoTsAuSelxl]

Wow this thread turned into a Kobe or Tmac thread fast.

OK honestly, how many threads have been created without the name Kobe? Then it becomes a ______ or Kobe thread.

How about I ask "Who is the best individual player CURRENTLY in the NBA that's been in the league for 10+ years and STILL TODAY might be top 2?!?

[amfirst]

Tmac better than Kobe? haahhah some people are on crack... the dude is a failure... fans using his injury as an excuse... everybody gets injured, even MJ and Kobe... but not everyone quits... :lol

[DatDudeD]

I remember tha year , to be honest they we're easily the 2 best perimeter players in the league. Statistically the we're very close, and yes i give t mac and edge because he was just naturally a better scorer and sometimes it seemed like he wasnt even trying but they we're both beasts that year both we're 30/6/6 so if you really wanna look at it i say they we're at worst even

[AirJordan23]

Unless my memory is failing me, wasn't Kobe himself up 3-1 against the Suns in a similar situation....and....oh, what happened next? He got eliminated.

Let me refresh your memory.

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_phxlal.html
And? What's your point..How's this relevant to what McGrady did in '02-03...And Kobe showed up in games 5 and 6 unlike McGrady. (29/7/5 on 59% from the field), 50 point game 6 that went to OT and would've won that if Odom had grabbed that rebound. Game 7 was obviously a different story where Kobe quit at half time because his team didn't show up. Obviously, Kobe deserves to be bashed for it but EVEN if he had shown the determination and desire, LA still loses that. Nobody on his team shot more than 46% from the field or scored more than 16 points. And defense was never LA's strength. I don't see how the '06 Kobe/'03 McGrady situations are comparable other than the fact that they both lost after being up 3-1.

[KubiliusF]

that 35 second ...says it all

[Horatio33]

That isn't the point. Point is great players find a way to win. McGrady couldn't and he didn't even show up. It's one thing that the star player shows up and the supporting cast doesn't. McGrady didn't show up himself so you can forget about winning the series. Detroit was the better team on paper. No doubt about it. But, when you're up 3-1 and lay an egg on the court, you'll get bashed for it. You're the star player and take the most blame for it. Heck, I remember kneeslack talkin about how he was finally about to advance to the second round yet he totally disappeared late into the series. Man that couldn't up back up his words. There is no excuse for that series. None. You would have a point if McGrady actually showed up but he didn't.

love this 'didn't show up' crap. im no T-Mac fan but, he realised his dream of becoming a professional basketballer. he may not take his team to the second round, but do you understand how hard it is to make it to the NBA for anyone? i bet that was your dream, to make the NBA. you haven't made it. that means you didn't show up in life.

[AirJordan23]

love this 'didn't show up' crap. im no T-Mac fan but, he realised his dream of becoming a professional basketballer. he may not take his team to the second round, but do you understand how hard it is to make it to the NBA for anyone? i bet that was your dream, to make the NBA. you haven't made it. that means you didn't show up in life.
You must be mentally handicapped. It's a fact McGrady didn't show up for games 5, 6 and 7 while blabbering about how he finally had such a great chance to get to the second round. What the f*ck does me not making the NBA have to do with this? The 2 posters brought up Kobe losing while being up 3-1 against the Suns 3 years ago. But, the fact is Kobe showed up for games 5 and 6. Even dropping 50 and taking the Suns to OT. Heck, there would have been no OT if Odom grabs that rebound that led to the Tim Thomas. McGrady was busy watching his team getting blown out in games 5, 6 and 7 while he shot a whopping 40, 39 and 29% from the field in those games. Yet, I'm supposed to not bring that up just because I'm not in the NBA. My god, are you actually this retarded?

[ronron15]

He was top 2 hands down.

Serious back and knee injuries messed him up. That's the bottom line.

[KoolKat]

You must be mentally handicapped. It's a fact McGrady didn't show up for games 5, 6 and 7 while blabbering about how he finally had such a great chance to get to the second round. What the f*ck does me not making the NBA have to do with this? The 2 posters brought up Kobe losing while being up 3-1 against the Suns 3 years ago. But, the fact is Kobe showed up for games 5 and 6. Even dropping 50 and taking the Suns to OT. Heck, there would have been no OT if Odom grabs that rebound that led to the Tim Thomas. McGrady was busy watching his team getting blown out in games 5, 6 and 7 while he shot a whopping 40, 39 and 29% from the field in those games. Yet, I'm supposed to not bring that up just because I'm not in the NBA. My god, are you actually this retarded?

You must know that Kobe is the only one you can critisize, and maybe Iverson.

[Anaximandro1]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

But having great teams and great coaches around him from day one has *made* him a winner, both in terms of results and reputation. Tmac would have won just as much as Kobe did in his shoes.

Tim Duncan is a flat, emotionless, offensively passive player. Yet he is considered a winner of the first order, and why? Two reasons. One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does. Two is that he is a part of the greatest organization in recent sports history. From day one of his career he has been in the best possible situation. Perfect roleplayers. Rookie year was the final piece of the puzzle for an already good team. Top 3 coach in NBA history... all these things made him what he is today. And he is that - if you took away all these things and stuck him on LA Clippers he'd still be a "winner" (though not to the same extent) but if he had been on LA Clippers from day one who on earth knows how he would have turned out?

Tmac consistently showed up in the playoffs, and in a big way. He never had the team, the organization, he coach. There's really no reason to believe that given Gregg Popovich and all that other stuff, he couldn't have won a few championships? I'm not suggesting he's Duncan's equal, or even could be, because Duncan's defensive impact is huge. But Tmac gets underappreciated. All these guys are considered losers, and then they get some decent teammates, win a ring or come close, and all of a sudden they're great leaders with tremendous intangibles (Pierce, Garnett). Fans are fickle.


Do some research

Playoff debut for Timmy D (Spurs vs Suns Round 1 game 1 1998 Playoffs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_fD0QA5g1E


Duncan in (02-03)


http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2003.html


has any superstar won a ring with such a weak supporting cast? Maybe Olajuwon


Duncan

[phoenix18]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

But having great teams and great coaches around him from day one has *made* him a winner, both in terms of results and reputation. Tmac would have won just as much as Kobe did in his shoes.

Tim Duncan is a flat, emotionless, offensively passive player. Yet he is considered a winner of the first order, and why? Two reasons. One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does. Two is that he is a part of the greatest organization in recent sports history. From day one of his career he has been in the best possible situation. Perfect roleplayers. Rookie year was the final piece of the puzzle for an already good team. Top 3 coach in NBA history... all these things made him what he is today. And he is that - if you took away all these things and stuck him on LA Clippers he'd still be a "winner" (though not to the same extent) but if he had been on LA Clippers from day one who on earth knows how he would have turned out?

Tmac consistently showed up in the playoffs, and in a big way. He never had the team, the organization, he coach. There's really no reason to believe that given Gregg Popovich and all that other stuff, he couldn't have won a few championships? I'm not suggesting he's Duncan's equal, or even could be, because Duncan's defensive impact is huge. But Tmac gets underappreciated. All these guys are considered losers, and then they get some decent teammates, win a ring or come close, and all of a sudden they're great leaders with tremendous intangibles (Pierce, Garnett). Fans are fickle.
Repped. KillerInstinct, say something about this.

[KoolKat]

So T-Mac make his teammates betters, but Kobe doesn't ? :oldlol:

[wang4three]

He was fantastic that year. Just ****ing amazing. Game was smooth, scored at will, and made his teammate better. KG locked him up bad in one game though.

[Clifton]

[quote]Duncan

[snipes12]

he dont have shaq and gasol in his side

[Clifton]

So T-Mac make his teammates betters, but Kobe doesn't ? :oldlol:
ha ha ha ha ha

?

[phoenix18]

he dont have shaq and gasol in his side
Yeah, people dont take that into account. They are strictly looking at the stats or just completely biased. Kobe had some great teams.Tracy Mcgrady had some horrible teams. Straight trash.

[KenneBell]

TMac was god damn ridiculously good. Yes, he was better than Kobe. He was better than Kobe ever has been. This fiction that there is something inherently "winner" in Kobe and inherentlly "loser" in Tmac needs to stop. Most heroes are made and Kobe is most definitely made. His work ethic is stronger than Tmac's there's no doubt about that. But Kobe's work ethic is merely a product of the same selfishness and impatience that makes him less effective, and less conducive to winning, than he otherwise could be.

Let's not go too far now. For a season there, yeah, you could argue that T-Mac was better than Kobe. Other than that, there's not much evidence to support that claim.

[Clifton]

Let's not go too far now. For a season there, yeah, you could argue that T-Mac was better than Kobe. Other than that, there's not much evidence to support that claim.
My claim was that Tmac in 02-03 > Kobe in any particular year.

[KenneBell]

My claim was that Tmac in 02-03 > Kobe in any particular year.
Nah, I'm not putting him over 05-06 Kobe. He and Kobe were damn near equals in 02-03 with T-Mac having a slight edge. I think that '06 season truly separated Kobe from the pack.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Nah, I'm not putting him over 05-06 Kobe. He and Kobe were damn near equals in 02-03 with T-Mac having a slight edge. I think that '06 season truly separated Kobe from the pack.
This contradicts itself, for 2006 Bryant be inferior to his prior self. Alas the difference between Bryant in the two seasons be minimal, what was the difference was how far McGrady had fallen. Bryant's biggest offseason personal improvement be in the summer of 2000. For in 1999-00, he was a top 15 player, whilst for much of 2000-01 he was a top 5 player.

[MrUnstopable]

My claim was that Tmac in 02-03 > Kobe in any particular year.

I agree... what could have been... The thing about T-Mac is he was a better at everything then Kobe... not one thing that Kobe could do that T-Mac couldn't... T-Mac was a better post player, finisher, dunker, 3-point shooter... even mid range shooter... but to each his own...

[KenneBell]

This contradicts itself, for 2006 Bryant be inferior to his prior self.
That's arguable. As a playmaker maybe but he wasn't asked to be playmaker in '06. His role was to score and there's probably only one perimeter player who could have replicated that season in the same role.


T-Mac was a better post player, finisher, dunker, 3-point shooter... even mid range shooter... but to each his own...
Also arguable. 3 point shooting was a wash. They were within thousandths of a point of each other. Mid-range probably also was a wash as they shot within 1% point of each other from 2. The dunking? Well, I think Kobe's dunks from that season were a bit more memorable(reverse windmills, 360 vs Denver, etc). Post play and passing I'll give to T-Mac.

[phoenix18]

That's arguable. As a playmaker maybe but he wasn't asked to be playmaker in '06. His role was to score and there's probably only one perimeter player who could have replicated that season in the same role.
Who?

[KenneBell]

Who?
MJ and he did it twice at way higher FG%.

[MrUnstopable]

That's arguable. As a playmaker maybe but he wasn't asked to be playmaker in '06. His role was to score and there's probably only one perimeter player who could have replicated that season in the same role.


Also arguable. 3 point shooting was a wash. They were within thousandths of a point of each other. Mid-range probably also was a wash as they shot within 1% point of each other from 2. The dunking? Well, I think Kobe's dunks from that season were a bit more memorable(reverse windmills, 360 vs Denver, etc). Post play and passing I'll give to T-Mac.

No way man I don't think you remember T-Macs dunks... either way they both could dunk with power and use finesse around the rim.. both brilliant at that..

Plus T-Mac was far and away the better 3-point shooter.. Teams would fear him coming down the court on that pull up three that he hit with such great consistency...

[phoenix18]

MJ and he did it twice at way higher FG%.
I thought you were talking about the current crop of players.

[KenneBell]

Plus T-Mac was far and away the better 3-point shooter.. Teams would fear him coming down the court on that pull up three that he hit with such great consistency...
Like I said, they were pretty much equal that season. In fact, both never got close to shooting that well from three again.

[Abraham Lincoln]

That's arguable. As a playmaker maybe but he wasn't asked to be playmaker in '06.

:cheers:

[GiveItToBurrito]

I agree. I can sense that most posters here dont really watch basketball at all. Now about Mcgrady choking, didnt they get ripped off against dallas? Also, you cannot expect someone to carry a team all season long like he did in Orlando.

I agree completely. TMac's supporting cast in Orlando on a good day as Wade's was this year in Miami, but nobody talks **** about him choking or anything. Yeah, you can point out the Finals MVP, but he would have never gotten there without Shaq, Payton, Posey, etc. TMac's an absurdly talented guy who's just had some horrible luck, both with injuries and with teammates. There's no way anyone can tell me that if Grant Hill had been healthy Orlando would have never made it to the second round. I mean, before he went to Houston (when injuries were starting to limit his effectiveness), TMac's best second banana was either Mike Miller or Shawn Kemp's post-Cavs fat ass.

[Abraham Lincoln]

My how the mighty have been mortalized by age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqXr5G8He9E


No way man I don't think you remember T-Macs dunks...

Tis all but a memory now

1:55 -2:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_eGS1DqHK8

[KoolKat]

ha ha ha ha ha

?

You have said that :


One is that he is a very consistent offensive player who makes his teammates better - just like Tmac does.

[MrUnstopable]

My how the mighty have been mortalized by age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqXr5G8He9E



Tis all but a memory now

1:55 -2:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_eGS1DqHK8

Look at 4:43...

a combination of Michael Jordan, Dr. Jay, and George Girvan on the same play!! -Walton

[Rockets(T-mac)]

Tis all but a memory now

1:55 -2:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_eGS1DqHK8
Those dunks are like what Lebron does now, but smoother, and a bit less power. I miss those days.

McGrady that season was one of the best perimeter player seasons this decade, probably top 3. He was still playing great defense, which he had to let go of because he was basically Orlando's offense. The season before that was probably the best mix of offensive and defensive perimeter play I've seen this decade. If it wasn't for injuries and horrible teams, there wouldn't be so much hate for the guy.

[Younggrease]

No way man I don't think you remember T-Macs dunks... either way they both could dunk with power and use finesse around the rim.. both brilliant at that..

Plus T-Mac was far and away the better 3-point shooter.. Teams would fear him coming down the court on that pull up three that he hit with such great consistency...

yeah team never fear Kobe's 3 pointers...they dont even guard him out there

[Younggrease]

I agree... what could have been... The thing about T-Mac is he was a better at everything then Kobe... not one thing that Kobe could do that T-Mac couldn't... T-Mac was a better post player, finisher, dunker, 3-point shooter... even mid range shooter... but to each his own...

these are just wrong...T-Mac never really had a post game that was even close to Kobe's...Kobe's post game is one of the best of any guard to ever touch a ball.

The difference between Kobe and a lot of others was that he always wanted to have a long career so he saved his body. Unlike T-Mac who would try on dunk people a lot more in meaningless situations in regular season games. T-Mac never got to that level of skill Kobe got to. He wasnt the shooter, didnt have the footwork and never had the leadership skills. T-Mac is a frontrunner, as soon as things go south he cracks.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

I'm a Kobe fan and I'll agree. T-Mac in that season was a MONSTER. I'd give Kobe the slight edge because of heart and defense but they were REALLY REALLY close. But I just don't understand when someone says player A was better than player B when we all know they were virtually tied.

Oh my even the most loyal Kobe Stan has to use the heart argument when it comes T-Mac of that season to put Kobe in front. T-Mac had to be better than Kobe. I so angry i missed it. Not to mention his shoe was hot, I almost copped it. I think i went with the Allen Iverson 5 or 6s.

[andgar923]

I can almost guarantee that 95% of those that think its a joke that Tmac was ever better than Kobe, never actually saw him play aside from an occasional game or two.

I can say that with all certainty Tmac WAS BETTER than Kobe.

He might not have been WAYYYYYY better, but even if he was slightly better that's what he was.

His shot was silky smooth, his passing has always been sweet, his defense was a nightmare for his opponents. His game overall was just effortless in every aspect, he could do everything Kobe could do today (yes today) but was more athletic, taller, and smarter.

I saw him play effortlessly and score 30 pts with ease at the half more than plenty times, cross over at the 3pt line and pull up for a 3 better than Kobe could ever do, split two defenders and penetrate better than Wade, post up and finish against any defense etc. etc.etc. He was NOTHING like the Tmac that we see today, he was a completely different player back then.

Another thing...... he was the most double teamed perimeter player since Mj and has remained that way. You guys think Kobe gets trapped and doubled? pfft.... Tmac was doubled and triple far more than Kobe ever has, because he didn't have a system in place or the players to spread out the floor. He didn't have plays ran for him that allowed him to get cleaner looks, not because he couldn't run them and finish, but because his coach was inept.

I think its fair to say (not that its correct or false) that Tmac for a short time, was better than KObe's ever been.... even if for a brief period.

Damn shame how quickly we forget.

[catch24]

I can almost guarantee that 95% of those that think its a joke that Tmac was ever better than Kobe, never actually saw him play aside from an occasional game or two.

I can say that with all certainty Tmac WAS BETTER than Kobe.

He might not have been WAYYYYYY better, but even if he was slightly better that's what he was.

His shot was silky smooth, his passing has always been sweet, his defense was a nightmare for his opponents. His game overall was just effortless in every aspect, he could do everything Kobe could do today (yes today) but was more athletic, taller, and smarter.

I saw him play effortlessly and score 30 pts with ease at the half more than plenty times, cross over at the 3pt line and pull up for a 3 better than Kobe could ever do, split two defenders and penetrate better than Wade, post up and finish against any defense etc. etc.etc. He was NOTHING like the Tmac that we see today, he was a completely different player back then.

Another thing...... he was the most double teamed perimeter player since Mj and has remained that way. You guys think Kobe gets trapped and doubled? pfft.... Tmac was doubled and triple far more than Kobe ever has, because he didn't have a system in place or the players to spread out the floor. He didn't have plays ran for him that allowed him to get cleaner looks, not because he couldn't run them and finish, but because his coach was inept.

I think its fair to say (not that its correct or false) that Tmac for a short time, was better than KObe's ever been.... even if for a brief period.

Damn shame how quickly we forget.

Hey thats cool, I think Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (not that its correct or false) for a short period, were better than Jordan's ever been....even if for a brief period.

[andgar923]

Hey thats cool, I think Magic Johnson and Larry Bird (not that its correct or false) for a short period, were better than Jordan's ever been....even if for a brief period.

I agree that they were better at some point, but not better than MJ's ever been. That's the difference.

[Clifton]

He was NOTHING like the Tmac that we see today, he was a completely different player back then.
That's true. For real, RIP. Tmac today is horrible. Most inefficient player in the league. Somewhere along the line he just lost his will to live. Injuries got to his head I think. Didn't want to get hurt again so didn't take it to the rack again.

I always expected Tmac to turn into Portland-era Pippen when his body started to give out on him, but instead he decided that chucking bad jumpshots was the answer. I don't understand it. I feel like it would be possible to turn him into a new kind of valuable player and that his coaches are just too lazy and let him pretend that he's 25 still. As good as Tmac's feel for the game is, he doesn't have the intellectual grasp of the game that some guys do, that allow them to see how they could be most effective. That's supposed to be a coach's job.

[phoenix18]

I can almost guarantee that 95% of those that think its a joke that Tmac was ever better than Kobe, never actually saw him play aside from an occasional game or two.

I can say that with all certainty Tmac WAS BETTER than Kobe.

He might not have been WAYYYYYY better, but even if he was slightly better that's what he was.

His shot was silky smooth, his passing has always been sweet, his defense was a nightmare for his opponents. His game overall was just effortless in every aspect, he could do everything Kobe could do today (yes today) but was more athletic, taller, and smarter.

I saw him play effortlessly and score 30 pts with ease at the half more than plenty times, cross over at the 3pt line and pull up for a 3 better than Kobe could ever do, split two defenders and penetrate better than Wade, post up and finish against any defense etc. etc.etc. He was NOTHING like the Tmac that we see today, he was a completely different player back then.

Another thing...... he was the most double teamed perimeter player since Mj and has remained that way. You guys think Kobe gets trapped and doubled? pfft.... Tmac was doubled and triple far more than Kobe ever has, because he didn't have a system in place or the players to spread out the floor. He didn't have plays ran for him that allowed him to get cleaner looks, not because he couldn't run them and finish, but because his coach was inept.

I think its fair to say (not that its correct or false) that Tmac for a short time, was better than KObe's ever been.... even if for a brief period.

Damn shame how quickly we forget.
Just to add to that, T-Mac's shoes are also better than Kobe's. They need to re-release the 3's!!!! Best shoe ever.

[Bodhi]

I think its fair to say (not that its correct or false) that Tmac for a short time, was better than KObe's ever been.... even if for a brief period.

Completely agree. T-Mac's best 35 seconds are better than any 35 second segment that Kobe has produces. It was very brief, but it was still better.

[Kiddlovesnets]

07-08 CP3 is the best in recent years.

CP3 >>>> The rest of NBA

[Clifton]

Just to add to that, T-Mac's shoes are also better than Kobe's. They need to re-release the 3's!!!! Best shoe ever.
I had a pair of white and blue 2's. The only shoes I can remember liking better were a pair of Shox. They were the one that had color all over and then hard white panels on the sides, they were a team shoe. Those were the perfect basketball shoe. But the Tmac 2's were amazing. I didn't like the way they looked though.

[andgar923]

Just to add to that, T-Mac's shoes are also better than Kobe's. They need to re-release the 3's!!!! Best shoe ever.

Which one's were those?

I remember my cousin let me borrow some Kobe shoes once.... the ones with the bubbles at the sole. They were one of my fav shoes to ever play on. They were light and they felt good when making moves, I loved playing in them more than any other shoes ever.

[DCL]

damn, you must be young as f--k if you never remembered when t-mac used to be sick.

[phoenix18]

Which one's were those?

I remember my cousin let me borrow some Kobe shoes once.... the ones with the bubbles at the sole. They were one of my fav shoes to ever play on. They were light and they felt good when making moves, I loved playing in them more than any other shoes ever.

These were the best shoes I ever had. Ever. I want another pair of these perfect shoes.
http://site.mynet.com/bsariturk/mynet_resimlerim/t-mac_3.5.jpg
Those. I loved them. They were like pillows but supportive. Your feet never get hot.

[andgar923]

Thinking back..... I was a big Kobe fan, but watching Tmac's Orlando years made me realize how hyped Kobe was, and how he was getting the lion's share of attention. I also started to notice more and more flaws and overrating in Kobe's game watching Tmac play before Kobe (time zone differences). In a way it was similar to Wade getting ignored for most of this season (and most of his career actually). He wouldn't get near the attention that Kobe and a few others were receiving even tho he was the scoring leader.

I'd see Kobe highlights and everybody go crazy with some of his plays (at times rightfully so) but Tmac was doing the same thing on a nightly basis and at a more consistent rate.... yet no love.

[catch24]

I agree that they were better at some point, but not better than MJ's ever been. That's the difference.

Nope. It's arguable that his (Birds) '86, 84-85, 87-88 season's were better than Michael's. Considering the competition (Pistons in their prime, Lakers - showtime in their prime, etc). Magic's '86-88 seasons are top notch as well and definitely arguable. I'm not going to mention BIGS - Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, etc. Everyone knows at somepoint their peakplay > Jordan's.

I don't think TMAC has ever come close to Kobe's '05-06 season when it comes to scoring and just dominating teams single handedly with absolutely no help. That's just me though.

*EDIT* That being said, TMAC was better than Kobe in 2001-2002 and they were about equal in 02-03. Wasn't till 2005 Kobe took that torch and ran with it.

[Younggrease]

Thinking back..... I was a big Kobe fan, but watching Tmac's Orlando years made me realize how hyped Kobe was, and how he was getting the lion's share of attention. I also started to notice more and more flaws and overrating in Kobe's game watching Tmac play before Kobe (time zone differences). In a way it was similar to Wade getting ignored for most of this season (and most of his career actually). He wouldn't get near the attention that Kobe and a few others were receiving even tho he was the scoring leader.

I'd see Kobe highlights and everybody go crazy with some of his plays (at times rightfully so) but Tmac was doing the same thing on a nightly basis and at a more consistent rate.... yet no love.

I hope your not talking about 2002-2003 because Kobe's highlights that year where heads and shoulders above T-Mac. He had some of the most memorable plays of the year that year...

180 windmills
Dunks on Yao Ming
behind the back 180 dunk against Denver...

Sorry but your exposing youself as biased...

[Indian guy]

His shot was silky smooth

So was/is Kobe's.


his passing has always been sweet

Probably T-mac's only edge.


his defense was a nightmare for his opponents.

He was a solid defender in Orlando, but his offensive responsibilities always limited his effort on that end of the floor. Kobe at his best defensively is better than T-Mac at his best. Better 1-on-1. Better disruptor with his help D. T-Mac, due to his superior athleticism and size, was the better weak side shot blocker.


His game overall was just effortless in every aspect

But we're discussing effectiveness here, not style.


he could do everything Kobe could do today (yes today)

T-Mac simply never had Kobe's level of short creating skills from all over the court. He didn't have the footwork - be it in the post or on the perimeter. He didn't have Kobe's level of body control on his hard dribble-pull up jumpers. He didn't have Kobe's ball handling skills. There's a reason why he played so much screen n roll.


but was more athletic, taller

That he was. Smarter? Absolutely not. T-Mac's shot selection was/is even worse than Kobe's. He could never read defenses as well as Kobe either.


I saw him play effortlessly and score 30 pts with ease at the half more than plenty times

And Kobe's the most explosive scorer in NBA history. Has numerous 30+ halfs. Heck, even has 40+ and 50+ halfs, something T-Mac doesn't.


penetrate better than Wade

Stop :oldlol:


post up and finish against any defense

T-Mac doesn't have a post game. Kobe's post up skills have never impressed me either, but he's still much better on the block than T-Mac ever was.


He was NOTHING like the Tmac that we see today, he was a completely different player back then.

T-Mac's skill level has remain unchanged since '03. The only difference between Orlando-T-Mac and Houston-T-Mac is athleticism and shot selection. Injuries robbed him off some of his explosiveness, and for whatever reason his shot selection went completely down the toilet from 03-04.


Another thing...... he was the most double teamed perimeter player since Mj and has remained that way.

This is completely false. I followed 02-04 T-Mac as closely as anyone. Among the perimeter superstars then(AI, Kobe, Carter, PP, himself), he was easily the least doubled one. Orlando was always loaded with a lot of good shooters and they always had excellent spacing under Doc Rivers. T-Mac got to play 1-on-1 a ton. The most doubled perimeter superstar in T-Mac's hey-day was actually Vince Carter.


I think its fair to say (not that its correct or false) that Tmac for a short time, was better than KObe's ever been...

There's absolutely no way 02-03 T-Mac was as good as 05-07 Kobe. Outside of passing he does NOTHING better. And from an intangibles standpoint he's just light years inferior.

[andgar923]

Those. I loved them. They were like pillows but supportive. Your feet never get hot.

I never tried any of Tmac's shoes.

But I'm telling you guys, those Kobe's were nice.

They hugged your feet well, and they were specially good when making quick lateral moves. But I also guess one needed to have an arching foot, don't think they would've felt the same if one had a flat foot.

Best shoes I ever hooped in.....

http://www.pickyourshoes.com/elevation_wht_blk.jpg

[BallersTalk]

Stop. There's nothing Kobe could physically do that T-Mac couldn't. For that period of time, T-Mac was hands down the best perimeter player in the league. In fact, Prime T-Mac > Prime Kobe. Look at what he did in Houston. I wanna see Kobe shut down Dirk like T-Mac did while having to score every time down.

[catch24]

So was/is Kobe's.



Probably T-mac's only edge.

He was a solid defender in Orlando, but his offensive responsibilities always limited his effort on that end of the floor. Kobe at his best defensively is better than T-Mac at his best. Better 1-on-1. Better disruptor with his help D. T-Mac, due to his superior athleticism and size, was the better weak side shot blocker.

But we're discussing effectiveness here, not style.

T-Mac simply never had Kobe's level of short creating skills from all over the court. He didn't have the footwork - be it in the post or on the perimeter. He didn't have Kobe's level of body control on his hard dribble-pull up jumpers. He didn't have Kobe's ball handling skills. There's a reason why he played so much screen n roll.

That he was. Smarter? Absolutely not. T-Mac's shot selection was/is even worse than Kobe's.

And Kobe's the most explosive scorer in NBA history. Has numerous 30+ halfs. Heck, even has 40+ and 50+ halfs, something T-Mac doesn't.

Stop :oldlol:

T-Mac doesn't have a post game. Kobe's post up skills have never impressed me either, but he's still much better in the block than T-Mac ever was.

T-Mac's skill level has remain unchanged since '03. The only difference between Orlando-T-Mac and Houston-T-Mac is athleticism and shot selection. Injuries robbed him off some of his explosiveness, and for whatever reason his shot selection went completely down the toilet from 03-04.

This is completely false. I followed 02-04 T-Mac as closely as anyone. Among the perimeter superstars then(AI, Kobe, Carter, PP, himself), he was easily the least doubled one. Orlando was always loaded with a lot of good shooters and they always had excellent spacing under Doc Rivers. T-Mac got to play 1-on-1 a ton. The most doubled perimeter superstar in T-Mac's hey-day was actually Vince Carter.

There's absolutely no way 02-03 T-Mac was as good as 05-07 Kobe. Outside of passing he does NOTHING better. And from an intangibles standpoint he's just light years inferior.

Thank you for putting things into perspective. I share the same exact sentiments, always have actually.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

http://basketball-shoes.org/images/adidas_the_tmac_002.jpg

These have to go down as a top 5 NBA shoe of all times number 1 is the jordan 11s then you gotta have them kobe's, Allen Iverson 5s, Air Pennys, Lebrons

[KenneBell]

Stop. There's nothing Kobe could physically do that T-Mac couldn't.
We've already established that. However, that's not what separated them.


For that period of time, T-Mac was hands down the best perimeter player in the league.
No he wasn't. That's why we're having this discussion.

[KenneBell]

His game overall was just effortless in every aspect, he could do everything Kobe could do today (yes today) but was more athletic, taller, and smarter.
Be serious. Kobe of '03 could do everything Kobe could do today but '09 Kobe's mental edge over T-Mac/old Kobe isn't even comparable.


split two defenders and penetrate better than Wade
LOL get real. MJ is the only SG that could slash as well as Wade. T-Mac kept his ass on the perimeter shooting 7-8 threes a game during his "prime". His game was even more jumpshot based than Kobe's.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

I know this is off topic but i am looking at the stats McGrady shot the ball 24 times a game you have to be a bad man to get that many shots up.

LOL allen iverson in 01 shot the ball 28 times a game and averaged 31 points on 39 % FG what a cancer.

[Meticode]

Oh look. A thread specifically about Tracy McGrady being good during one season turns into Kobe vs. McGrady. Who would have guessed? :confusedshrug:

[Batman]

Can somebody tell me just how good he is or give me a comparison or something, because for some reason i can't really remember it. It might do with his injuries the last 4 years.
Was he better than Prime Kobe? a Scottie Pippen on Steroids?

Ok he was 6'8 leaner faster jumper higher than i have ever seen him. I am looking at his stats

32 PPG 6.5 rebs 5.5 assists 46% FG 39% 3pt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytfry2VaFGg&feature=related even dropped 62 points one game.



http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/2093/2047359040045260096S500x500Q85.jpg


Tell Me Just How Good HE WAS thanx. Go!

Better THAN OJ Mayo.

[KenneBell]

Oh look. A thread specifically about Tracy McGrady being good during one season turns into Kobe vs. McGrady. Who would have guessed? :confusedshrug:
Well, the OP asked how good he was. The only thing you could do is talk about what he accomplished and how he compared to his peers. The closest guy to him was Kobe therefore he's ging to be the one most talked about. I suppose we could talk about Vince instead but he wasn't as good.

[catch24]

Well, the OP asked how good he was. The only thing you could do is talk about what he accomplished and how he compared to his peers. The closest guy to him was Kobe therefore he's ging to be the one most talked about. I suppose we could talk about Vince instead but he wasn't as good.

Vince in his prime > TMAC imo

[KenneBell]

Vince in his prime > TMAC imo
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/JKFrazier/snoop.gif

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Oh look. A thread specifically about Tracy McGrady being good during one season turns into Kobe vs. McGrady. Who would have guessed? :confusedshrug:

No from the youtube videos I have watched, seeing his game by game logs of 02-03 he was beyond just good he was out of his mind. I just missed it when it was happening oh well at least I will see OJ Mayo's " The Next One" prime season, so i made a thread on it because the stuff i was seeing was pretty ridiculous.

McGrady had a nice stretch from 00-05 then the injuries started to happen.

[Meticode]

Well, the OP asked how good he was. The only thing you could do is talk about what he accomplished and how he compared to his peers. The closest guy to him was Kobe therefore he's ging to be the one most talked about. I suppose we could talk about Vince instead but he wasn't as good.

You can talk about how good a player was without bringing up the fact of who was better during that season. It's inevitable with a lot of the posters here though that this is going to happen. It's all they think about.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What's amazing about T-Mac's 2002-2003 season si that he did that before the handchecking rule changes were enforced(prior to the 2004-2005 season).

32.1 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg, 45.7 FG%, 38.6 3P%, 79.2 FT%

That may be the greatest statistical season ever by a perimeter player not named Michael Jordan when you consider the pace.

[catch24]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/JKFrazier/snoop.gif

To each his own

[KenneBell]

http://www.zerodegreesart.com/zartists/tnichols/images/YES.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/JKFrazier/23mllyejpg.gif

[lpublic_enemyl]

We've already established that. However, that's not what separated them.


No he wasn't. That's why we're having this discussion.

lol why does kobe have to be in every convo this is about t-mac and but in all seriousness i think the reason ppl think he does not have heart is cause he always has this sleeply loo k on his face, he is definately not vince, he does some motivation, my point is he was a really good player until he got injured

[catch24]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c249/JKFrazier/23mllyejpg.gif

lmfaooo :D

[snipes12]

He is the best player in nba live 2003 having dunk , 3pt and steal icons
his a monster

[andgar923]

Nope. It's arguable that his (Birds) '86, 84-85, 87-88 season's were better than Michael's. Considering the competition (Pistons in their prime, Lakers - showtime in their prime, etc). Magic's '86-88 seasons are top notch as well and definitely arguable. I'm not going to mention BIGS - Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, etc. Everyone knows at somepoint their peakplay > Jordan's.

I don't think TMAC has ever come close to Kobe's '05-06 season when it comes to scoring and just dominating teams single handedly with absolutely no help. That's just me though.

*EDIT* That being said, TMAC was better than Kobe in 2001-2002 and they were about equal in 02-03. Wasn't till 2005 Kobe took that torch and ran with it.

Wrong.

MJ past the 91 season was better than anybody ever. It was arguable whether or not MJ was the best player since 87, but there was still some fine tuning left in his game. He could do some things better than Bird and Magic, but they still had the slight edge, but he broke it wide open after the 90 season and then cemented himself as the best all time after 92.


I don't think TMAC has ever come close to Kobe's '05-06 season when it comes to scoring and just dominating teams single handedly with absolutely no help. That's just me though.


I always laugh at that notion, that Kobe has ever been vastly superior. Hell.... there's many Kobe fans that still feel that way right now in regards to Wade and Bron. Which is why nobody takes them serious.

Tmac was better than Kobe has ever been in that time span. Why? because Kobe was never as good a passer as Tmac. Not that he couldn't make the passes, but because he was reluctant. Tmac was also a better post player than Kobe ever has.

To be honest, most of that is due to his height which gives him the advantage.

Lets face it..... Kobe was a chucker in that season, plain and simple. He was on a mission to score as many points as possible no matter what. Hell.... Tmac, Wade, and Bron could score as much today if they had that same mentality with a better efficiency at that.

[chitownsfinest]

Nope. It's arguable that his (Birds) '86, 84-85, 87-88 season's were better than Michael's. Considering the competition (Pistons in their prime, Lakers - showtime in their prime, etc). Magic's '86-88 seasons are top notch as well and definitely arguable. I'm not going to mention BIGS - Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem, etc. Everyone knows at somepoint their peakplay > Jordan's.

I don't think TMAC has ever come close to Kobe's '05-06 season when it comes to scoring and just dominating teams single handedly with absolutely no help. That's just me though.

*EDIT* That being said, TMAC was better than Kobe in 2001-2002 and they were about equal in 02-03. Wasn't till 2005 Kobe took that torch and ran with it.
MJ won 3 mvp's, 3 f-mvp's, a dpoy, three of the most dominant final performances ever, a 33/6/6 and unreal efficiency for a perimeter player, 7 scoring titles, 6 all defensive first teams, and 7 all nba first teams in his peak from 87-93. That peak is easily top 3 all time. Bird's peak is close but Magic's peak isn't.

[LA_Showtime]

Can somebody tell me just how good he is or give me a comparison or something, because for some reason i can't really remember it. It might do with his injuries the last 4 years.
Was he better than Prime Kobe? a Scottie Pippen on Steroids?

Ok he was 6'8 leaner faster jumper higher than i have ever seen him. I am looking at his stats

32 PPG 6.5 rebs 5.5 assists 46% FG 39% 3pt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytfry2VaFGg&feature=related even dropped 62 points one game.



http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/2093/2047359040045260096S500x500Q85.jpg


Tell Me Just How Good HE WAS thanx. Go!

I don't understand why people don't appreciate T-Mac on ISH...

I miss the old T-Mac

[KenneBell]

Hell.... Tmac, Wade, and Bron could score as much today if they had that same mentality with a better efficiency at that.
That's the thing. Wade and Bron don't have mentality and T-Mac operated at almost the same efficiency(.457) at 32ppg. Most likely, his FG% would've dropped to Kobe's .450 or even lower like it did next season. Not to mention that Kobe played 80 games at 41mpg, which I don't think T-Mac could repeat.

Kobe wasn't far ahead but that season did separate him from the pack IMO.

T-Mac's 02-03 season was amazing though. I will admit that.

[Younggrease]

Tmac was also a better post player than Kobe ever has.

.

what the hell has T-Mac done in the post that has been even comparable to Kobe...he has always been soft in the post and lacked a lost of skill esp. with using leverage


this statement is just more proof you know very little about the game

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: at Mac being a better post player. That's one of the stupidest things I've heard on this forum.

[catch24]

Wrong.

MJ past the 91 season was better than anybody ever. It was arguable whether or not MJ was the best player since 87, but there was still some fine tuning left in his game. He could do some things better than Bird and Magic, but they still had the slight edge, but he broke it wide open after the 90 season and then cemented himself as the best all time after 92.

Not wrong, MJ past the '91 season better than anyone else has ever been? Talk about homerism. Bird's '87 and 85, 88 seasons? "Wrong", lol. He cemented himself the GOAT after he retired in '98. He might of been the most skilled along with BIRD after '92 but he was definitely not the consensus GOAT. I thought you'd have a little more respect for the past, guess I was wrong. Bird's '85, 87-88 season are definitely close if not tied and possibly better considering the competition he faced and skills, efficiency and IQ he displayed on the court.



I always laugh at that notion, that Kobe has ever been vastly superior. Hell.... there's many Kobe fans that still feel that way right now in regards to Wade and Bron. Which is why nobody takes them serious.

I never said vastly superior, I said "not close when it comes to scoring (the variety of ways he put the ball in the hoop) and leading a bunch of scrubs in the tougher Western Conference. Wade and Bron are arguably better than Kobe, not that I feel that way - I still have Kobe at #1 with Wade trailing slightly and LeBron falling third. Kobe's skills, overall game play and what he brings to the table when it comes to the oppositions defensive gameplan is unmatched IMO.


Tmac was better than Kobe has ever been in that time span. Why? because Kobe was never as good a passer as Tmac. Not that he couldn't make the passes, but because he was reluctant. Tmac was also a better post player than Kobe ever has.

To be honest, most of that is due to his height which gives him the advantage.

Wrong, Kobe's 2005-2006 season was one of the better scoring, and overall around seasons in history, easily. Just because he was a better passer doesn't mean that he's better. Kobe's defense, post game, jumpshot (overall offense) > Tmac's career in 2006. Point blank, no question, dunzo. LMAO @ being better in the post. Do you even know what a post game is? Tmac's shot selection was Allen Iverson like. Backing his defenders down around the 3PT line isn't a post game, sorry kiddo.



Lets face it..... Kobe was a chucker in that season, plain and simple. He was on a mission to score as many points as possible no matter what. Hell.... Tmac, Wade, and Bron could score as much today if they had that same mentality with a better efficiency at that.

Wrong, considering his team and Phil stating for the Lakers to stay competitive he'd have to take a bunch of shots and score in huge spurts that was one of the overall better seasons. He didn't just "chuck". He displayed his overall ingame offensive skillset: Jumpers, postgame, 3PT shooting, getting to the line, etc, etc. Let's face the facts here. Kobe > Tmac has ever been in 2005-2009. Period.

Kobe '05-06: -
insidescoring: 239-502 - 58%
midrange: 467-857 - 54%
3PT: 180-518 - 34%

Doesn't look like chucking to me.

[lakers_forever]

What's amazing about T-Mac's 2002-2003 season si that he did that before the handchecking rule changes were enforced(prior to the 2004-2005 season).

32.1 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg, 45.7 FG%, 38.6 3P%, 79.2 FT%

That may be the greatest statistical season ever by a perimeter player not named Michael Jordan when you consider the pace.

Kobe in same season:
30 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 2.2 spg, 45 fg%, 38 3p% , 84 ft%.

Don't see much difference. Plus Kobe was 1st team all defense that year. 9 straight 40+ games. Kobe had a monster season. He was the better player even that year and was ahead of Tmac in MVP voting.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Not wrong, MJ past the '91 season better than anyone else has ever been? Talk about homerism. Bird's '87 and Wrong, lol. He cemented himself the GOAT after he retired in '98. He might of been the most skilled along with BIRD but he was definitely not the consensus GOAT. I thought you'd have a little more respect for the past, guess I was wrong. Bird's '85, 87-88 season are definitely close if not tied and possibly better considering the competition and skills, efficiency and IQ he displayed on the court.


.

jordan 91 season was better than any modern player by a mile not only did he win the championship, but dominated magic's showtime lakers he averaged 31 11 6 in the finals.

[catch24]

MJ won 3 mvp's, 3 f-mvp's, a dpoy, three of the most dominant final performances ever, a 33/6/6 and unreal efficiency for a perimeter player, 7 scoring titles, 6 all defensive first teams, and 7 all nba first teams in his peak from 87-93. That peak is easily top 3 all time. Bird's peak is close but Magic's peak isn't.

Larry Bird:

1983-84 NBA Finals MVP
1983-84 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA MVP
1985-86 NBA Finals MVP
1985-86 NBA MVP

3 mvps straight, 2 finals mvps, amongst the top 10 in field goals made during his prime (around 3,5 and 8.) Among the top 10 in 3PT field goals made. Amongst the top 10 in rebounds per game. Around top 5 in scoring every year - he actually had to share the ball more considering he was playing with two hofers.

Amongst the top 3 in PER:
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)

Amongst the top 3 in win shares:

1984-85 NBA 15.6 (1)
1985-86 NBA 15.7 (1)
1986-87 NBA 14.9 (3)
1987-88 NBA 14.8 (3)

Not to mention he was one of the most unselfish and best teammates (referring to making his team that much better) the league has seen.

[ImmortalD24]

I don't understand why people don't appreciate T-Mac on ISH...

I miss the old T-MacSame here..

T-mac was a beast!

[catch24]

jordan 91 season was better than any modern player by a mile not only did he win the championship, but dominated magic's showtime lakers he averaged 31 11 6 in the finals.

Take a look at Wilt, Shaq and Kareem's statistical efficiency/production during their prime. I believe he's (Jordan) the GOAT, but that's when you put everything together.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Kobe in same season:
30 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 2.2 spg, 45 fg%, 38 3p% , 84 ft%.

Don't see much difference. Plus Kobe was 1st team all defense that year. 9 straight 40+ games. Kobe had a monster season. He was the better player even that year and even was ahead of Tmac in MVP voting.

keep in miind kobe had shaq last prime year so teams had to double shaq everytime, mcgrady was a lone soldier.

[lakers_forever]

keep in miind kobe had shaq last prime year so teams had to double shaq everytime, mcgrady was a lone soldier.

Kobe was also often double teamed. Your argument works both ways. If Kobe had no Shaq, he would probably had better stats (with a terrible team record though).

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Kobe was also often double teamed. Your argument works both ways. If Kobe had no Shaq, he would probably had better stats (with a terrible team record though).

I didn't watch the 02-03 season really obviously that's why i made this thread. You could go the other way also how many of his assists where to shaq. No doubt he would have been scoring 33-37 averaging that like young jordan, but he might have emphasized his scoring and his other numbers would have gone down

36 5 4 would probably been kobes numbers w/o shaq that year that year similar to 06

[lpublic_enemyl]

I didn't watch the 02-03 season really obviously that's why i made this thread. You could go the other way also how many of his assists where to shaq. No doubt he would have been scoring 33-37 averaging that like young jordan, but he might have emphasized his scoring and his other numbers would have gone down

36 5 4 would probably been kobes numbers w/o shaq that year that year similar to 06
man kobe went off when he had 2 go to court,"it's like the judge gave him the ball and was like play for your freedom" and kobe was like:hammertime:

[andgar923]

So was/is Kobe's.



Probably T-mac's only edge.




He was a solid defender in Orlando, but his offensive responsibilities always limited his effort on that end of the floor. Kobe at his best defensively is better than T-Mac at his best. Better 1-on-1. Better disruptor with his help D. T-Mac, due to his superior athleticism and size, was the better weak side shot blocker.

I'll give the slight edge to Tmac as an overall defender, mostly due to Kobe's inability to be consistent. Kobe can be great at times and horrible at times. At least with Tmac at that time, he was consistently at certain level. He was slightly better as a help defender, and slightly less of an individual defender than Kobe. So I think it evens out, but he was more consistent AND he didn't have players like Fisher, George, Shaq backing him up. Kobe's defensive abilities have always been his most overrated aspect of his game.... VERY overrated. Matter of fact... Tmac was known as the Raptors' defensive stopper.




But we're discussing effectiveness here, not style.
I don't care about style.... Tmac was also more effective.



T-Mac simply never had Kobe's level of short creating skills from all over the court. He didn't have the footwork - be it in the post or on the perimeter. He didn't have Kobe's level of body control on his hard dribble-pull up jumpers. He didn't have Kobe's ball handling skills. There's a reason why he played so much screen n roll.

Stop it. Yes he did, he was every bit that and even more in some aspects. I do think that current Kobe has slightly better footwork than Tmac, but that's about it. Everythig else, they're about the same, with a slight edge going to Tmac on the body control. He was stronger, had longer arms and was slightly more athletic than Kobe. And Tmac's cross over pull up is every bit as good as Kobe's but he's taller than him.... so the edge goes to Tmac. Again.... most of this might be due to Tmac's size and it also might be a slight edge, but its an edge nonetheless. The reason he didn't come off screens and curls like Kobe did, was because he didn't have the system to do so, that's it.



That he was. Smarter? Absolutely not. T-Mac's shot selection was/is even worse than Kobe's. He could never read defenses as well as Kobe either.

Tmac made the right plays more often than Kobe. Sure he fell in love with the 3, but so did Kobe. And he didn't force the same amount of shots that Kobe did. Hell.... even you admitted that he passed better than kobe. And part of that is, he made the right passes at the right time. And we still see that in him as a Rocket. Kobe still makes the same boneheaded decisions and shots that he did as a rookie at least 3 times every game..... NO I'M NOT EXAGGERATING.




And Kobe's the most explosive scorer in NBA history. Has numerous 30+ halfs. Heck, even has 40+ and 50+ halfs, something T-Mac doesn't.

That's because he was out to score as many points as possible. I've seen Tmac get just as hot, but then pull back or sit the games. Besides, Tmac was never really an aggressive scorer like Kobe, hell.... he was even criticized for not being an aggressive player. He could've averaged more points if he wanted too. And the most explosive ever? ever heard of Wilt? MJ? you can't be serious.... although he's up there in the top 5.


Stop :oldlol: I might of got carried a bit, but he was up there. He was often guarded by taller players so he would get to the rim with ease. He also had a longer stride and arms than Wade, so he got there with less effort. With 2 strides, he would go from just inside the 3pt line to the rim.



T-Mac doesn't have a post game. Kobe's post up skills have never impressed me either, but he's still much better on the block than T-Mac ever was.

HUH? you clearly didn't watch him play or you wouldn't be saying that. Hell.... he's still a good post up player, if he didn't settle for that damn jumper ( oh yeah his back... .my bad). But he used to KILL in the post. He was too tall for players 6'8 (due to his length and quickness) and under, and too quick for taller players. And he was an excellent passer from there as well. He also had more range on his post up game than Kobe and possibly MJ at that, again... due to his height and strength, he was able to post far away from the paint and still make it in with ease. I think Durant could be like him if he gains some weight, in many aspects specially the post. We see how easily Durant shoots from the 3pt line, that's due to his length.




T-Mac's skill level has remain unchanged since '03. The only difference between Orlando-T-Mac and Houston-T-Mac is athleticism and shot selection. Injuries robbed him off some of his explosiveness, and for whatever reason his shot selection went completely down the toilet from 03-04.

I think he's spent too much time having to rehab more than anything. He still shows signs of brilliance from time to time (although very very rarely), but I think its more mental, which is why he gets labeled as being weak. But he seems like a player that's testing out his body back from an injury when he's playing....... well..... that's because that's exactly what he is. Which I think is natural for every athlete after an injury, it just so happens he's always in that position.



This is completely false. I followed 02-04 T-Mac as closely as anyone. Among the perimeter superstars then(AI, Kobe, Carter, PP, himself), he was easily the least doubled one. Orlando was always loaded with a lot of good shooters and they always had excellent spacing under Doc Rivers. T-Mac got to play 1-on-1 a ton. The most doubled perimeter superstar in T-Mac's hey-day was actually Vince Carter.
Nope!

I couldn't disagree more.

1. Iverson was hard to double cause he was all over the court, coming off screens and just running everywhere. Sure, when he got the ball up top he got doubled, every great player does.... but not more than Tmac.

2. I can't really speak for Carter, I gotta be honest.

3. Kobe wasn't doubled as much as Tmac, sorry.... that's just false. The triangle is created for that reason, hell the Bulls and Lakers were equipped with players to fit that philosophy. Then you have Shaq in the middle or Gasol, or a 6'10 point forward, and your chances to get doubled minimize. And like I said, its harder to double him when they run multiple looks for him. He's not stuck on isos as much as other players unless he creates them and then he goes into the double himself, by denying screens or literally dribbling into them. Again..... sure he gets doubled, but not more than Tmac did.

4. PP was never really the team's ballhandler, so by default there's less attention on him. He also had the floor spread out with Walker (who was the team's point forward) and PP was usually a quick catch and shoot player. Again..... sure he got doubled, but not as much as Tmac.

Bottom line is, every top player gets doubled, there's no denying that. But Tmac received the most doubles (I honestly don't remember VC) out of any other perimeter player since MJ. Doc's offense was not that much different than the current Cavs' offense with Bron. Doc was always more of a defensive minded coach and he was at his early stages back then. He was experimenting with different personnel, different offensive schemes, etc. etc. then you add the fact they didn't have all the right pieces and Tmac having the ball in his hands almost all the time, and he's put in a situation where he was constantly doubled and trapped. You even mentioned how he came off screens often, well..... that was due to the traps and doubles, similar to Wade. And another reason why Tmac is smarter than Kobe.... he didn't wave the screen off and actually used it to his advantage. Go back and watch Kobe games, and watch him wave off or ignore the screen. Then see him dribble, dribble, dribble and dribble until the double leaves or he tries to split it. That's smart basketball? and people wonder why he forces so many bad shots...... its because he creates most of them.




There's absolutely no way 02-03 T-Mac was as good as 05-07 Kobe. Outside of passing he does NOTHING better. And from an intangibles standpoint he's just light years inferior.

Stop it....

I mean, I don't get it.... he does NOTHING better? even tho the stats can back that up?

Less turnovers
Less fouls
More assists
More rebounds
Better 3pt shooter

Is that really nothing?

Oh... but I get it, "the stats don't say the whole story" and the same can be applied for Tmac as well. You mentioned 'intangibles'.... but Tmac didn't do that for his team? he didn't plug in all the holes and do everything his team needed to win?

I will say this..... Kobe has been more mentally stronger than Tmac. He's been more aggressive and fearless than Tmac. He's been more resilient than Tmac.

And btw...... I NEVER mentioned that Tmac was EASILY or WAY or ITS NO CONTEST better than Kobe. I've maintained that Tmac was always slightly better if not equal to Kobe in many aspects or as a whole. And to be fair, most of Tmac's success can be attributed directly to his height and long limbs, which creates an entire dynamic on both ends of the court. If not for that aspect, Kobe would distance himself from Tmac by a good margin.

Tmac was every bit as skilled as Kobe is, just didn't have the resources and was plagued with bad luck for his career. I don't see why its hard for many (not directed at you) to fathom Kobe being an inferior player to Tmac. Hell..... I think that Penny was in many ways better than Kobe and even Bron. Maybe not the explosive scorer that Kobe is, but that doesn't mean he wasn't better than him in many other aspects. We may never know how great Penny might've been, just like we may never know how much Tmac's career would've progressed, or even Wade's at that.

But there's no doubt that Kobe right now, is a far more accomplished and better player than Tmac is right now.

[andgar923]

man kobe went off when he had 2 go to court,"it's like the judge gave him the ball and was like play for your freedom" and kobe was like:hammertime:
Kobe was on a mission to score as many points as possible.... bottom line.

[amfirst]

Stop. There's nothing Kobe could physically do that T-Mac couldn't. For that period of time, T-Mac was hands down the best perimeter player in the league. In fact, Prime T-Mac > Prime Kobe. Look at what he did in Houston. I wanna see Kobe shut down Dirk like T-Mac did while having to score every time down.


Shut down Dirk, like the Warriors did or everyone else? I wanna see him drop 63 points to the Mavs 62 points by the end of the 3rd. Now that's impressive, never been done. Or how about this, I want to see T-Mac shut down Kobe, like Kobe shut down T-Mac. That would be impressive as well.

[amfirst]

Stop it....

I mean, I don't get it.... he does NOTHING better? even tho the stats can back that up?

Less turnovers
Less fouls
More assists
More rebounds
Better 3pt shooter

Is that really nothing?

Oh... but I get it, "the stats don't say the whole story" and the same can be applied for Tmac as well. You mentioned 'intangibles'.... but Tmac didn't do that for his team? he didn't plug in all the holes and do everything his team needed to win?

I will say this..... Kobe has been more mentally stronger than Tmac. He's been more aggressive and fearless than Tmac. He's been more resilient than Tmac.

And btw...... I NEVER mentioned that Tmac was EASILY or WAY or ITS NO CONTEST better than Kobe. I've maintained that Tmac was always slightly better if not equal to Kobe in many aspects or as a whole. And to be fair, most of Tmac's success can be attributed directly to his height and long limbs, which creates an entire dynamic on both ends of the court. If not for that aspect, Kobe would distance himself from Tmac by a good margin.

Tmac was every bit as skilled as Kobe is, just didn't have the resources and was plagued with bad luck for his career. I don't see why its hard for many (not directed at you) to fathom Kobe being an inferior player to Tmac. Hell..... I think that Penny was in many ways better than Kobe and even Bron. Maybe not the explosive scorer that Kobe is, but that doesn't mean he wasn't better than him in many other aspects. We may never know how great Penny might've been, just like we may never know how much Tmac's career would've progressed, or even Wade's at that.

But there's no doubt that Kobe right now, is a far more accomplished and better player than Tmac is right now.

That's a big IF. Atheleticism doesn't equal the best player, see VC.

[lpublic_enemyl]

That's a big IF. Atheleticism doesn't equal the best player, see VC.

well rings prove alot kobe has 4 of them

[chitownsfinest]

Larry Bird:

1983-84 NBA Finals MVP
1983-84 NBA MVP
1984-85 NBA MVP
1985-86 NBA Finals MVP
1985-86 NBA MVP

3 mvps straight, 2 finals mvps, amongst the top 10 in field goals made during his prime (around 3,5 and 8.) Among the top 10 in 3PT field goals made. Amongst the top 10 in rebounds per game. Around top 5 in scoring every year - he actually had to share the ball more considering he was playing with two hofers.

Amongst the top 3 in PER:
1984-85 NBA 26.5 (1)
1985-86 NBA 25.6 (1)
1986-87 NBA 26.4 (3)
1987-88 NBA 27.8 (2)

Amongst the top 3 in win shares:

1984-85 NBA 15.6 (1)
1985-86 NBA 15.7 (1)
1986-87 NBA 14.9 (3)
1987-88 NBA 14.8 (3)

Not to mention he was one of the most unselfish and best teammates (talking about his team that much better) the league has seen.
I guess you concede thatb Magic's peak is not close to Jordan's or Birds' then?

(This is going to be my last post on this topic because this thread does not relate to Jordan or Bird).
Let's use 6 yr peaks. MJ's peak is from 87-93, LB's is from 82-88.
MJ won 3 championships and 3 final MVP's in that period. Bird won 2 final mvp's and two championships in that period and lost twice in the finals.
Both players final's numbers:
MJ: 31/7/11 56% shooting 3 spg, 1bpg in 91. 36/5/7 53% shooting, 2 spg in 92. 41/9/6 51% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 93.
LB: 27/14/4 48% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 84, 24/9/5 45% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 85 24/10/10 48 % shooting 3 spg 1 bpg in 86 24/10/6 45% shooting 1 spg 1 bpg in 87
MJ was 3-0 in final appearances, Bird was 2-2.
Overall, their stat lines for all the finals appearances combined look like this
MJ: 36/7/8 on 53% shooting
LB: 25/11/6 on 47% shooting.
MJ also played amazing D on Clyde Drexler and caused him to shoot 41% in the series and caused Dan Majerlie to shoot 44% the next season.
I think MJ gets the edge here because he beats LB in most categories, never lost once, and played much better defense.

In the three playoff appearances where MJ or LB didn't make the finals, their stat lines looked like this:
MJ: 36/7/5 in 88, 35/7/8 in 89, 37/7/7 in '90
LB: 21/13/7 on 42% shooting in 83 and 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in 88
MJ made the conference finals twice in those three times and Bird made it once. I think MJ gets the edge here because of increased dominance on both ends and much better efficiency. Before you come up with the old LB had tougher competition, stop and think that LB had better supporting casts then MJ did.

Reg. Season MVP's:
LB: 3
MJ: 3
No one wins here.

All NBA teams:
LB had 6 all nba first teams and so did MJ. No one wins there either.

Defense:
MJ had 6 all defensive first teams and a dpoy in his peak. Bird only had two all defensive second teams and 0 dpoy's in his peak. MJ easily gets the edge here.

Reg. Season stats:
MJ in the 6 yr peak: 33/7/6 on 53% shooting 3 spg
LB in his: 27/10/7 on on 51% shooting 2 spg
It is really close as you can see. The gap between assists is really small. I actually rounded this and MJ averaged 6.2 apg in his peak while LB averaged 6.6 apg in his peak, showing the gap is really small. MJ has a clear edge in scoring while LB has a clear edge in rebounding for good reason. MJ has an edge in defense and efficiency. I give the slight edge to MJ here.

You can see that both had amazing peaks and top 5 all time peaks but MJ get's the advantage due to much better defense and playoffs/finals dominance.

[catch24]

I guess you concede thatb Magic's peak is not close to Jordan's or Birds' then?

(This is going to be my last post on this topic because this thread does not relate to Jordan or Bird).
Let's use 6 yr peaks. MJ's peak is from 87-93, LB's is from 82-88.
MJ won 3 championships and 3 final MVP's in that period. Bird won 2 final mvp's and two championships in that period and lost twice in the finals.
Both players final's numbers:
MJ: 31/7/11 56% shooting 3 spg, 1bpg in 91. 36/5/7 53% shooting, 2 spg in 92. 41/9/6 51% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 93.
LB: 27/14/4 48% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 84, 24/9/5 45% shooting 2 spg 1 bpg in 85 24/10/10 48 % shooting 3 spg 1 bpg in 86 24/10/6 45% shooting 1 spg 1 bpg in 87
MJ was 3-0 in final appearances, Bird was 2-2.
Overall, their stat lines for all the finals appearances combined look like this
MJ: 36/7/8 on 53% shooting
LB: 25/11/6 on 47% shooting.
MJ also played amazing D on Clyde Drexler and caused him to shoot 41% in the series and caused Dan Majerlie to shoot 44% the next season.
I think MJ gets the edge here because he beats LB in most categories, never lost once, and played much better defense.

In the three playoff appearances where MJ or LB didn't make the finals, their stat lines looked like this:
MJ: 36/7/5 in 88, 35/7/8 in 89, 37/7/7 in '90
LB: 21/13/7 on 42% shooting in 83 and 25/9/7 on 45% shooting in 88
MJ made the conference finals twice in those three times and Bird made it once. I think MJ gets the edge here because of increased dominance on both ends and much better efficiency. Before you come up with the old LB had tougher competition, stop and think that LB had better supporting casts then MJ did.

Reg. Season MVP's:
LB: 3
MJ: 3
No one wins here.

All NBA teams:
LB had 6 all nba first teams and so did MJ. No one wins there either.

Defense:
MJ had 6 all defensive first teams and a dpoy in his peak. Bird only had two all defensive second teams and 0 dpoy's in his peak. MJ easily gets the edge here.

Reg. Season stats:
MJ in the 6 yr peak: 33/7/6 on 53% shooting 3 spg
LB in his: 27/10/7 on on 51% shooting 2 spg
It is really close as you can see. The gap between assists is really small. I actually rounded this and MJ averaged 6.2 apg in his peak while LB averaged 6.6 apg in his peak, showing the gap is really small. MJ has a clear edge in scoring while LB has a clear edge in rebounding for good reason. MJ has an edge in defense and efficiency. I give the slight edge to MJ here.

You can see that both had amazing peaks and top 5 all time peaks but MJ get's the advantage due to much better defense and playoffs/finals dominance.

Where did I say that? Pretty sure I said Magic, Bird, Wilt and Kareem's peak are comparable and some of them actually had a "better peak". To each his own. Those guys were the standard.

And I agree with everything you said. I have Jordan as the GOAT. I'm just saying peak for peak, Bird and all the other greats I listed are comparable. Especially when you look beyond stats and demeanor/playing styles. Bird could of been a ballhog and scored 40 a game if he wanted to, no question - dude had the skills and IQ to do this every f'n night. He didn't though, he was a team player first and was playing chess instead of checkers, not to mention he had to defer to 2 GREAT BIG MEN during this prime - two HoFers. Considering the circumstances and beyond the stat sheet their peaks are EXTREMELY close if not tied as I pointed out.

[chitownsfinest]

Where did I say that? Pretty sure I said Magic, Bird, Wilt and Kareem's peak are comparable and some of them actually had a "better peak". To each his own. Those guys were the standard.

And I agree with everything you said. I have Jordan as the GOAT. I'm just saying peak for peak, Bird and all the other greats I listed are comparable. Especially when you look beyond stats and demeanor/playing styles. Bird could of been a ballhog and scored 40 a game if he wanted to, no question - dude had the skills and IQ to do this every f'n night. He didn't though, he was a team player first and was playing chess instead of checkers, not to mention he had to defer to 2 GREAT BIG MEN during this prime - two HoFers. Considering the circumstances and beyond the stat sheet their peaks are EXTREMELY close if not tied as I pointed out.
Yes, if he had to defer to two great big men, wouldn't he have had wayy more assists then MJ? He averaged 6.6 apg in that period and MJ averaged 6.2 in his peak period despite having weaker teams.

MJ may have had more shots per game, but he had a better efficiency then LB did.

If LB wanted to go out and score 40 per night, he wouldn't have close to the amount of assists that he had originally so it goes both ways.

Yes defense goes beyond the stat sheet and I listed that. MJ has the clear edge in that.

It is close but not extremely close as you say. I think Shaq has the GOAT peak, then MJ and KAJ have the second and third best peaks. MJ and KAJ are extremely close. MJ gets the the edge against Bird because he has a huge edge on defense, and had better playoff and finals performances the LB did in the peak periods.

Lets just end this argument because it is going away from the topic of the thread. Agree to disagree perhaps?

[catch24]

Yes, if he had to defer to two great big men, wouldn't he have had wayy more assists then MJ? He averaged 6.6 apg in that period and MJ averaged 6.2 in his peak period despite having weaker teams.

MJ may have had more shots per game, but he had a better efficiency then LB did.

If LB wanted to go out and score 40 per night, he wouldn't have close to the amount of assists that he had originally so it goes both ways.

Yes defense goes beyond the stat sheet and I listed that. MJ has the clear edge in that.

It is close but not extremely close as you say. I think Shaq has the GOAT peak, then MJ and KAJ have the second and third best peaks. MJ and KAJ are extremely close. MJ gets the the edge against Bird because he has a huge edge on defense, and had better playoff and finals performances the LB did in the peak periods.

Lets just end this argument because it is going away from the topic of the thread. Agree to disagree perhaps?

The difference is, Bird was a consistent 6-7ast a game player, look at his career totals. No, he wasn't playing point and I'm sure Boston had some great ball movement going, considering they were an awesome championship caliber team for more than half a decade. Not just racking up individual assists totals.

I believe it was extremely close, and I'm a little upset I left Shaq hangin'. TO each his own, and yeah....We agree to disagree, no problem with that.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Yes, if he had to defer to two great big men, wouldn't he have had wayy more assists then MJ? He averaged 6.6 apg in that period and MJ averaged 6.2 in his peak period despite having weaker teams.

MJ may have had more shots per game, but he had a better efficiency then LB did.

If LB wanted to go out and score 40 per night, he wouldn't have close to the amount of assists that he had originally so it goes both ways.

Yes defense goes beyond the stat sheet and I listed that. MJ has the clear edge in that.

It is close but not extremely close as you say. I think Shaq has the GOAT peak, then MJ and KAJ have the second and third best peaks. MJ and KAJ are extremely close. MJ gets the the edge against Bird because he has a huge edge on defense, and had better playoff and finals performances the LB did in the peak periods.

Lets just end this argument because it is going away from the topic of the thread. Agree to disagree perhaps?

Can we keep the MJ's name out of this let's get back on topic ppl.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

man kobe went off when he had 2 go to court,"it's like the judge gave him the ball and was like play for your freedom" and kobe was like:hammertime:

great point, that year kobe was playing for his life because in the back of his mind it might have been the last year kobe would be balling in his life literally.

[lefthook00]

T-Mac in 02 03 was equal to Kobe in 02 03. A little bit silkier, but less twitchy.

Why do people say T-Mac was more athletic than Kobe? He had more height and length. He CANNOT JUMP HIGHER THAN KOBE. Show me one clip where T-Mac gets his head at rim level. Kobe doesn't really get his head at rim level either but he is shorter than Mac. Kobe was also a little bit faster than Mac.

[Jacks3]

Kobe's athleticism tends to be underrated because of his tremendous work-ethic and level of skill. Prime Kobe was quicker then Prime T-Mac. He had better body control. He was stronger. T-mac was taller, but other then that, they were pretty even as far as athleticism.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

T-Mac in 02 03 was equal to Kobe in 02 03. A little bit silkier, but less twitchy.

Why do people say T-Mac was more athletic than Kobe? He had more height and length. He CANNOT JUMP HIGHER THAN KOBE. Show me one clip where T-Mac gets his head at rim level. Kobe doesn't really get his head at rim level either but he is shorter than Mac. Kobe was also a little bit faster than Mac.

T-Mac athletism was second to Vince's watch the small dunk contest.
In a game T-Mac had to leave the game with a contusion because he hit his head on rim attempting a dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X67hUXXkBMA so quick to forget.

[rosonviyavong]

A top 5 player ..

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

T-Mac athletism was second to Vince's watch the small dunk contest.
In a game T-Mac had to leave the game with a contusion because he hit his head on rim attempting a dunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X67hUXXkBMA so quick to forget.

the dunk at 3:13 was sick.

[BallersTalk]

T-Mac in 02 03 was equal to Kobe in 02 03. A little bit silkier, but less twitchy.

Why do people say T-Mac was more athletic than Kobe? He had more height and length. He CANNOT JUMP HIGHER THAN KOBE. Show me one clip where T-Mac gets his head at rim level. Kobe doesn't really get his head at rim level either but he is shorter than Mac. Kobe was also a little bit faster than Mac.
On no planet was young Kobe more athletic than young T-Mac. A very respected and knowledgeable (possibly the most knowledgeable and most unbiased poster I've ever come across ever) Kblaze something (yeah, he makes those sick mixes on youtube) said Kobe's athleticism even in his prime was most comparable to Ray Allen in his prime. Now, note that Ray Allen was no slouch. He was incredibly athletic, but nobody took notice cause he was a shooter. But T-Mac is on a whole different playing field than Kobe.

[CantStop]

On no planet was young Kobe more athletic than young T-Mac. A very respected and knowledgeable (possibly the most knowledgeable and most unbiased poster I've ever come across ever) Kblaze something (yeah, he makes those sick mixes on youtube) said Kobe's athleticism even in his prime was most comparable to Ray Allen in his prime. Now, note that Ray Allen was no slouch. He was incredibly athletic, but nobody took notice cause he was a shooter. But T-Mac is on a whole different playing field than Kobe.

Wow anyone that thinks Kobe's ahletiscism in his prime was comparable to Ray Allen needs to be on my ignore list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMjlW9K1AUE

Prime Ray Allen could never do that.

Why is ISH so f*cking stupid?

[Batman]

Wow anyone that thinks Kobe's ahletiscism in his prime was comparable to Ray Allen needs to be on my ignore list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMjlW9K1AUE

Prime Ray Allen could never do that.

Why is ISH so f*cking stupid?

fair comparison.

[triangleoffense]

Tmac didn't win a ring in 02, Kobe did. Dispute solved.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Wow anyone that thinks Kobe's ahletiscism in his prime was comparable to Ray Allen needs to be on my ignore list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMjlW9K1AUE

Prime Ray Allen could never do that.

Why is ISH so f*cking stupid?

Wasn't Ray Allen in the dunk contest? Kobe's always been more athletic, but Ray Allen's not exactly Stojakovic, and it's not completely insane to compare the two.

[Younggrease]

If Ray Allen and Kobe are similar athletically does that mean that Ray Allen is an underachiever based on his lack of ball handling and game creating ability?

[LA_Showtime]

If Ray Allen and Kobe are similar athletically does that mean that Ray Allen is an underachiever based on his lack of ball handling and game creating ability?

Ray Allen has a hell of a handle.

Kobe and Ray Allen might have similar verticals, but Kobe's body control >>>>>> Ray's

[KB2009Champ]

You know you are the best in the league when every damn topic has your name in it.

I never see

Wade/Bron vs prime vince/tracey/hill/penny/player x times a million.

its always kobe. ALWAYS.

And no, its not the so called 'stans' that start these stupid threads.

Ok, lets make you happy, prime tracy >> prime kobe (even though any logical person knows that they are probably equal in their prime).

You happy now? What the hell does that change?

Nothing. Tracy is still an injury plagued disappointment who has NEVER made it out of the first round and kobe = a superstar w/ 4 rings.

Eat that.


Oh and you also know you are an illogical hater when you say that Ray allen and kobe's athleticism are equal. WTF? LMAO. Now you are just reaching.

[CantStop]

Oh and you also know you are an illogical hater when you say that Ray allen and kobe's athleticism are equal. WTF? LMAO. Now you are just reaching.

I don't get how someone can even see that. Darrell Armstrong was in the dunk contest so does that mean him and Kobe are comparable?

[Clifton]

You know you are the best in the league when every damn topic has your name in it.

I never see

Wade/Bron vs prime vince/tracey/hill/penny/player x times a million.

its always kobe. ALWAYS.

And no, its not the so called 'stans' that start these stupid threads.

Ok, lets make you happy, prime tracy >> prime kobe (even though any logical person knows that they are probably equal in their prime).

You happy now? What the hell does that change?

Nothing. Tracy is still an injury plagued disappointment who has NEVER made it out of the first round and kobe = a superstar w/ 4 rings.

Eat that.
The reason Kobe and Tmac are being compared is that they played the same position and in a similar way and to a similar level of effectiveness. MJ had just retired and people were looking for the next MJ. In the 02-03 years especially, but in the first half of this decade generally, Kobe and Tmac were really the only two guys you could point to, and point to people did. A post that talks about Tmac in 02-03 is going to talk about Kobe, because Kobe vs. Tmac was what people were talking about in 02-03. You really couldn't mention one without mentioning the other.

And it's not like Kobe vs. Wade, or Kobe vs. Lebron, either. Because Kobe and Tmac played the game so similarly that you couldn't help but compare them. Kobe and Lebron couldn't really be two more different players; they may very well represent the two poles of effective NBA play for non-big men. With Tmac and Kobe you have subtle differences: Kobe has the most advanced, perfected acquired skillset ever; Tmac played the game entirely on instinct; you almost felt that even though he was scoring 32 points a game and hitting 3s in people's faces, that he never practiced his jumpshot more than 10 minutes before practice or something. In the post, Kobe had the moves but Tmac had the size. When passing, Kobe was more accurate but Tmac was more willing and natural about it. Kobe didn't underachieve; Tmac never overachieved. It's an interesting comparison with subtle distinctions and a tough call either way that mostly boils down to preference. I always thought Tmac was the superior player, did back then, still do even though Kobe will probably retire with more rings than Jordan and Tmac with 0. But that's just me.

If you want to brag about your player's success, feel free, but this is a serious abstract discussion about who was the better player at their best, and if you don't want to partake in that, you're just wasting everybody's time.

[Kjeldar]

Tracy Mcgrady = Pistol Pete Maravich

That was a long way ago but i have to say this


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


You sir have NO idea :no:

[spree43]

why do we have to get bitter and compare every player?

Lets just acknowledge T-mac in all his glory, and ignore Kobe for a couple of pages here

Tmac was without a doubt one of the most valuable players in NBA history, even for the rockets (when he had a decent team but was affected by injury)

They had insane winning %s when he was actually playing, about 65-67% i think, and an insanely low 28-30% when he was injured

In the Orlando years he was a joy to watch, especially when he got going, as they had no other real offensive options so he would take on the other teams entire defense and usually beat them

The release on his jumper was so high that it was basicly unblockable, making him unstoppable when he caught fire, then he could attack the rack as good as anyone

Those attacking his post game obviously didnt watch him at Orlando, he'd play the majority of the game out of the high post, on the shoulder of the key, or stepping out to the perimerter from there

When his jump shot was hitting he was IMO the most unstoppable perimeter player in the history of the NBA (not saying he was a better player than Jordan so don't flame me) but if Tmac caught fire you could give up guarding him and hope nobody else was scoring so you had a chance to win

Here's hoping that he can get healthy over the offseason and give us one full year of play before he's finished

[Finn T-Mac]

If he was better than Kobe he would have gotten out of the first round.

:oldlol: Tracy was the best SG in that time. Talk about a bad team and they made to the playoffs. That says something about how good Tracy was back then. Kobe couldn't get this team out of first round, or to the playoffs for that matter in 2003.

PG Jacque Vaughn
SG T-Mac
SF Mike Miller
PF Pat Garrity
C Fat Shawn Kemp

bench

Darrell Armstrong
Drew Gooden (rookie)
Andrew DeClercq
Pat Burke
Jeryl Sasser

[Batman]

:oldlol: Tracy was the best SG in that time. Talk about a bad team and they made to the playoffs. That says something about how good Tracy was back then. Kobe couldn't get this team out of first round, or to the playoffs for that matter in 2003.

PG Jacque Vaughn
SG T-Mac
SF Mike Miller
PF Pat Garrity
C Fat Shawn Kemp

bench

Darrell Armstrong
Drew Gooden (rookie)
Andrew DeClercq
Pat Burke
Jeryl Sasser

what a bad team

[Rocker09]

Tremendous talent, he was considered the most explosive offensive player in the NBA during that time...Injuries plagued his career w/c in a way demoralized him....He did "quit" during his stay in orlando(IMO, the organization is partly to blame).....I don't wanna enter the Kobe VS Tmac argument(It's more fun watching :oldlol: )

[FIXED]

I thought everybody said Vince was the closest thing we have seen to Kobe.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Thanks for all the response you guys answered my question and some more.

/ thread.

[Ruslan`]

08-09 Wade is better then both

honestly T-Mac had everything that Kobe had and more... more athletic... better shooter... taller... all of it.. but he didn't have the most important thing...

McGrady was never better shooter than Kobe. Kobe is one of the best mid range shooters in history especially during that 05-06 season..Ur crazy if u say 02-03 Tmac was better shooter than Kobe.

[SLY]

ooo waooo till clodse out in here drinkin tonight iwonnt pooo ahoo

what happernd to music

[raptorfan_dr07]

I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.

Clifton made an excellent post, one in which I whole heartedly agree and often make the same case, which is..... Kobe has been put in a privileged situation unlike most players.

I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.

Now.... put Tmac or a few other players in his shoes from day 1.... and we'd be probably talking about them.

Hell.... its not too hard to imagine Wade in his shoes, and know the outcome will be almost the same... or Penny's.

And that's what Kobe stans can't comprehend when they cry....... "Well its double standards for MJ and Kobe"

OF COURSE ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!

One was basically given everything, while the other had to make his opportunities. Its like comparing a spoiled rich kid and a low class kid, the standards are different.

:eek: :eek: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

One of the best posts I've ever read on this forum.

[D-Rose]

T-Mac, Vince, etc are all "what could have been". Kobe is what happened. Maybe they would have had similar results with better luck and health but are we going to blame a guy for winning when he has help and staying healthy?

There's a reason why Mac/Vince are compared to Kobe, not the other way around.

I think even the haters would say that in the post-Jordan era, Kobe is the gold standard for perimeter players.

[Lebron23]

That was a long way ago but i have to say this


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


You sir have NO idea :no:

Pistol Pete Maravich was also a First Round Virgin when he was the no.1 option of his team.

He puts up great numbers, but his team never won more than 50 games in the Regular Season.


Career Wise: Mcgrady >>>> Maravich.

Mcgrady is a better playoffs performer than Maravich.

The reason that he was voted in the HOF is because of his great college career, but he don't deserved to be included in the NBA 50 greatest players of all time because Bob Mcadoo and Dominique Wilkins were a much better players than him.

Check the Record of the Atlanta Hawks and New Orleans Jazz when Maravich was their Franchise Player.

Kjeldar, you have no idea what your talking about.

[unbreakable]

Im here reading, blazed, remeniscing Tmac with Orlando.. and then I read some bltchass nlgga comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes :oldlol:

SMH. Thats the thing about the internet. Any random scrub can mouth off and have people actually agree and take him serious.

Andgar = SCRUB :oldlol:

[KenneBell]

Im here reading, blazed, remeniscing Tmac with Orlando.. and then I read some bltchass nlgga comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes :oldlol:

SMH. Thats the thing about the internet. Any random scrub can mouth off and have people actually agree and take him serious.

:roll:

Dude can't honestly believe what he's typing on the computer.

[Jacks3]

lol @ andgar.

[ronnymac]

what a bad team
DeClercq was he's starting center. enough said.

[MaxFly]

T-Mac was undoubtedly a great player in his prime... unfortunately, circumstances have somewhat conspired to disrupt his career and he's been somewhat of an underachiever as a result... perhaps somewhat his fault, but certainly not entirely.



32.1 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 5.5 apg, 1.6 spg, 45.7 FG%, 38.6 3P%, 79.2 FT%


Kobe in same season:
30 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 2.2 spg, 45 fg%, 38 3p% , 84 ft%.


Those two statlines are extremely similar. I'm not sure how anyone could choose one player over the other using the term "easily."

[branslowski]

T-Mac was undoubtedly a great player in his prime... unfortunately, circumstances have somewhat conspired to disrupt his career and he's been somewhat of an underachiever as a result... perhaps somewhat his fault, but certainly not entirely.






Those two statlines are extremely similar. I'm not sure how anyone could choose one player over the other using the term "easily."

You can when you have an agenda...

:oldlol: @ Those ppl saying "Easily McGrady"....Or "He could drive, had a great jumper, blah blah"...Like Kobe couldn't do those things..:oldlol:

They call McGrady consistant and call Kobe inconsistant, but they both have nearly the same number's along with fg%???...:wtf:

And ofcource, the usual Kobe bashing suspects has given thee illusion that McGrady was "Easily" better when a high IQ person knows, this wasn't the case...:no:

[MaxFly]

Im here reading, blazed, remeniscing Tmac with Orlando.. and then I read some bltchass nlgga comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes :oldlol:

SMH. Thats the thing about the internet. Any random scrub can mouth off and have people actually agree and take him serious.

Andgar = SCRUB :oldlol:

I didn't see when anyone mentioned Larry Hughes. Where was this...

[MaxFly]

You can when you have an agenda...

:oldlol: @ Those ppl saying "Easily McGrady"....Or "He could drive, had a great jumper, blah blah"...Like Kobe couldn't do those things..:oldlol:

They call McGrady consistant and call Kobe inconsistant, but they both have nearly the same number's along with fg%???...:wtf:

And ofcource, the usual Kobe bashing suspects has given thee illusion that McGrady was "Easily" better when a high IQ person knows, this wasn't the case...:no:

Well, I'm not going to call anyone's motivation into question, but the use of easily in any analysis of their stats that season is nonsense. Not sure if anyone has said this, but that would go for anyone who would say that Bryant was easily better that season as well.

[inclinerator]

T-Mac in 02 03 was equal to Kobe in 02 03. A little bit silkier, but less twitchy.

Why do people say T-Mac was more athletic than Kobe? He had more height and length. He CANNOT JUMP HIGHER THAN KOBE. Show me one clip where T-Mac gets his head at rim level. Kobe doesn't really get his head at rim level either but he is shorter than Mac. Kobe was also a little bit faster than Mac.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_eGS1DqHK8
5 min mark head near or rim level

[KenneBell]

I didn't see when anyone mentioned Larry Hughes. Where was this...
Andgar mentioned it in an earlier post.


I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.
This whole excerpt is hilarious.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Kobe 30 7 6 was really impressive also. Laker fan: Was that Kobe's best season if you include athletism, clutchness, speed, strength, filling up the stat sheet, etc etc.

[LA_Showtime]

I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.

Clifton made an excellent post, one in which I whole heartedly agree and often make the same case, which is..... Kobe has been put in a privileged situation unlike most players.

I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.

Now.... put Tmac or a few other players in his shoes from day 1.... and we'd be probably talking about them.

Hell.... its not too hard to imagine Wade in his shoes, and know the outcome will be almost the same... or Penny's.

And that's what Kobe stans can't comprehend when they cry....... "Well its double standards for MJ and Kobe"

OF COURSE ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!

One was basically given everything, while the other had to make his opportunities. Its like comparing a spoiled rich kid and a low class kid, the standards are different.

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read on ISH... :oldlol: Comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes?? GTFO you biased idiot.

[Bodhi]

Kobe 30 7 6 was really impressive also. Laker fan: Was that Kobe's best season if you include athletism, clutchness, speed, strength, filling up the stat sheet, etc etc.

05/06 was better, but it is close.

[LA_Showtime]

Kobe 30 7 6 was really impressive also. Laker fan: Was that Kobe's best season if you include athletism, clutchness, speed, strength, filling up the stat sheet, etc etc.

Well, IMO his best years were when the Lakers won the championship.

[thejumpa]

Crazy to think how far TMac has fallen since then. I really thought coming to Houston was gonna be his moment but I guess not. Either way, he was a beast. 6'8 putting up ungodly numbers. On top of that, he carried a ****ty team for the most part and made everything look easy. I remember all the Kobe comparisons back then too.....good times

I still say he can come back and sore 20ppg

[andgar923]

Im here reading, blazed, remeniscing Tmac with Orlando.. and then I read some bltchass nlgga comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes :oldlol:

SMH. Thats the thing about the internet. Any random scrub can mouth off and have people actually agree and take him serious.

Andgar = SCRUB :oldlol:

Please stop taking my posts out of context.

Go back and re-read my post before making an a$$ outta ya self.


Dig?

[andgar923]

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read on ISH... :oldlol: Comparing Kobe to Larry Hughes?? GTFO you biased idiot.

I see Kobe fans have a reading comprehension.

Go back and re-read that.

[LA_Showtime]

I see Kobe fans have a reading comprehension.

Go back and re-read that.

Comparing Kobe's style to Larry Hughes sounds like a comparison to me.:rolleyes:

"Like" sure sounds like a word you would use when comparing to players... lmao

[andgar923]

Andgar mentioned it in an earlier post.

This whole excerpt is hilarious.

Of course you'd find it hilarious, since you have no other way to refute it in an intelligent coherent manner, you resort to quick soundbites that'll get a laugh from Kobe fans AND mostly Kobe fans.

Any objective basketball fan will see what I'm saying and mostly agree with it.

[andgar923]

Comparing Kobe's style to Larry Hughes sounds like a comparison to me.:rolleyes:

"Like" sure sounds like a word you would use when comparing to players... lmao

Even if we left it at that, its not as funny and idiotic as you made it seem now is it?

BUT

That wasn't my post.... go back and read the entire thing in CONTEXT.

Or do I have to hold some of your hands and walk you through word by word?

[LA_Showtime]

Of course you'd find it hilarious, since you have no other way to refute it in an intelligent coherent manner, you resort to quick soundbites that'll get a laugh from Kobe fans AND mostly Kobe fans.

Any objective basketball fan will see what I'm saying and mostly agree with it.

Calling someone a Kobe fan shows what type of poster you are. Lol you can't think of anything better to say so you resort to the default response.

[eprizzle14]

the Magic wasted T-Macs career. He singlehandedly took them to the playoffs consistantly but he never had above average role players.

[andgar923]

Calling someone a Kobe fan shows what type of poster you are. Lol you can't think of anything better to say so you resort to the default response.

You're doing it again.

And are you not a Kobe 'fan?'

[BallersTalk]

Of course you'd find it hilarious, since you have no other way to refute it in an intelligent coherent manner, you resort to quick soundbites that'll get a laugh from Kobe fans AND mostly Kobe fans.

Any objective basketball fan will see what I'm saying and mostly agree with it.
Bingo. Here's what happens when you argue with a Kobe fan:

1. Basketball Fan brings some facts to go with opinions
2. Kobe fan makes wisecracks because he can't bring anything to the argument
3. Other Kobe fans chime in and make wisecracks as well
4. Thread ruined

[MrUnstopable]

Bingo. Here's what happens when you argue with a Kobe fan:

1. Basketball Fan brings some facts to go with opinions
2. Kobe fan makes wisecracks because he can't bring anything to the argument
3. Other Kobe fans chime in and make wisecracks as well
4. Thread ruined

co-sign... nothing he said was bad...

[LA_Showtime]

You're doing it again.

And are you not a Kobe 'fan?'

Nah, Kobe's not even my favorite Laker on the current squad. He's a great player with a questionable personality that I put up with because he's on my favorite team.

Again, calling someone a Kobe fan is just an excuse for not being able to think of a better response.

[Anti404]

as far as 02-03 is concerned, both players were insane. TMac was slightly more efficient, turning the ball over less and scoring 1.328 points per shot in comparison to Kobe's still superb 1.275(this resulted from McGrady shooting two more 3's per game, while still making the same percentage as Kobe, and also shooting about 1 more free throw per game), but pretty similar in most other statistics. Kobe had a much better team(O'Neal alone was better than the teammates TMac had to run with), so that probably effects just how well Kobe did. *shrug*
you cannot go wrong with either player in that year, though I would have preferred TMac; his efficiency and sheer dominating ability in that year were both absurd.
career wise is obviously not comparable, as for whatever reason, TMac was just not able to stay healthy and compete at that elite level for more than a few years, whereas Kobe has consistently been either the best or second best perimeter player in the league for many, many years.

[KenneBell]

Of course you'd find it hilarious, since you have no other way to refute it in an intelligent coherent manner, you resort to quick soundbites that'll get a laugh from Kobe fans AND mostly Kobe fans.

Who said I couldn't refute it? I just don't feel like wasting time on an obviously biased post. I have no problem admitting Kobe's shortcomings and weaknesses.

[nbastatus]

Not as good as 05-06 Kobe or 08-09 Wade.
:applause: :applause:

[andgar923]

Nah, Kobe's not even my favorite Laker on the current squad. He's a great player with a questionable personality that I put up with because he's on my favorite team.

Again, calling someone a Kobe fan is just an excuse for not being able to think of a better response.


A. Once again you show your lack of reading comprehension. I even made sure I highlighted the word 'fan' (see... I did it again), to differentiate between 'stan.' I never called you a 'stan' and you just admitted to being a kobe 'fan' so how am I wrong?

B. No.... I called you a fan because you're obviously biased and didn't properly comprehend what I posted, thus you misinterpreted what I actually meant and then snickered about it which received a positive reaction from mostly other Kobe 'fans.' So how was my post wrong or not being able to think? All I did was simply describe what happened, and that IS what happened.

C. You still have yet to refute what I posted. I will admit if I'm wrong or I will side if one makes a good argument.

[andgar923]

Who said I couldn't refute it? I just don't feel like wasting time on an obviously biased post. I have no problem admitting Kobe's shortcomings and weaknesses.


Well you didn't, but you obviously felt like wasting enough time to reply to me twice (or was it 3 times?) right?

If you're gonna ridicule somebody at least show the other person some respect as a MAN and attempt to refute/debate the comments you're ridiculing.

[Game]

Andgar getting clowned. Hahaha

Dude compared Kobe to Hughes. Automatic ban.

[Mark Jackson]

I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.

Clifton made an excellent post, one in which I whole heartedly agree and often make the same case, which is..... Kobe has been put in a privileged situation unlike most players.

I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.

Now.... put Tmac or a few other players in his shoes from day 1.... and we'd be probably talking about them.

Hell.... its not too hard to imagine Wade in his shoes, and know the outcome will be almost the same... or Penny's.

And that's what Kobe stans can't comprehend when they cry....... "Well its double standards for MJ and Kobe"

OF COURSE ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!

One was basically given everything, while the other had to make his opportunities. Its like comparing a spoiled rich kid and a low class kid, the standards are different.

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"Momma, wtf is wrong with this man?"

[andgar923]

:wtf:
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"Momma, wtf is wrong with this man?"

Care to elaborate?

[KenneBell]

Originally Posted by andgar923
I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.
A. I don't agree with that and can't find any evidence to support that. If anything, T-Mac's supposed "superior athleticism and size" allowed him to get away with not being as skilled as Kobe. Despite being smaller, less athletic, and dumber, he still managed to put up similar numbers. I wonder how?

As for T-Mac's psyche wearing down, I agree. Not winning does take it's toll on you.


I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. He may not have won as many championships but his individual accomplishments may have been greater on a team where he was the #1 option. I certainly don't think he could have done any worse than his peers.



He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?
And how do we know that he would have acted the same put in a different situation? You can't take 04-07 as an example because he had already been used to winning by then. Kobe's impatience during '07, asking for a trade and all, was most likely caused by him being used to winning, the team not going anywhere, and knowing he was slowing down and couldn't keep up his level of play for long.

I'm not going to act like those adjectives you used do not apply to Kobe but they are inherent in a lot of young players. Kobe was no different and being in an environment where he was used to winning and winning a lot probably helped that.


He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?
Explain this. He was "kinda bad"? That's not being honest. That's ridiculous.

From as a starter from age 20 to 24 he averaged:

99: 19.9pts/5.3reb/3.8ast on 46.5%
00: 22.5/6.3/4.9 on 46.8%
01: 28.5/5.9/5.0 on 46.4%
02: 25.2/5.5/5.5 on 46.9%
03: 30.0/6.9/5.9 on 45.1%

Not to mention the numerous successful playoff runs.

In what what f*cking world do you live in where that is bad? Bad compared to who? Vince? AI? TMac? Answer: none of them. He was easily on par with all mentioned and I don't think anyone expected him to advance to the levels he did by his 7th year on draft day.

And then you penalize him for being on a great team? Why? It doesn't make any less of a player. With his talent level, his efficiency might have been down but his numbers across the board wouldn't be any different in my opinion. Basketball players with that level of talent tend to adapt to their environments pretty easily.


Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.
Once again we don't know. You can assume by what you think Kobe behaves on and off the court but there's no telling how starting off on an average or bad team would have affected his outlook and mentality on the game. In my opinion, it probably would have been a good thing for him.

He didn't start that experience until the '05 season. He grew up a lot in 4 years and the organization eventually putting good teams around him helped too. Now the process might have been much slower had he started off with the Hornets but I think he still could have won a championship eventually.


He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play.
No, not really. Hughes never had the body control Kobe has. Leaping ability, arguable. Style of play wise, Kobe was more mid-range oriented than Larry was. The shot charts bare this out.



Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.
Now it's obivous we are on different planes. I'm thinking Kobe's talent and determination would lead him eventually to still be successful but probably not 4 championships(best case scario). You are thinking worst case scenario, where Kobe's immaturity and arrogance would have lead him down a road of mediocrity. Most likely, it would be somewhere between the two.

Like Kobe said, he wanted to go to a good team to win. If he had started off on a bad team his stats most likely would have been even better early on in his career.

[KenneBell]

Bottom line, T-Mac had a year for the ages in 02-03 and he was as good or a little better than 02-03 Kobe. But to act like he was superior in almost all areas of basketball is flawed.

[Game]

I'm not a fan of the ignore list but when you say Kobe is not top 25 of all time, it needs to be used.

[DCpup]

I agree with some of the posts.

A. Tmac was more skilled than Kobe
B. There are other factors that make a player great, besides just 'skills.'
C. He didn't just have a bad team, a fairly inexperienced coach but more importantly.... NO SYSTEM!
D. He gets knocked for not having heart, and I've been guilty of that as well. But when the organization doesn't help you out, when you keep having injuries after injuries, it gets frustrating. Kobe has been in the same situation for 2 seasons. Tmac has been going through that for most of his career pre Houston. It wears down a player's psyche.
E. Kobe was more competitive..... PERIOD! Sure maybe some of his 'theatrics' are silly and seem forced, but bottom line, he really does want to win more than Tmac.

Clifton made an excellent post, one in which I whole heartedly agree and often make the same case, which is..... Kobe has been put in a privileged situation unlike most players.

I've always stated that, if Kobe had been on a different team, we probably wouldn't be talking about Kobe like we do today.

He was an extremely arrogant, selfish, immature player that didn't play consistently, made horrible decisions, took bad shots, was uncoachable, a prima donna on and off the court etc.etc.etc.

You take all of that and put him on a different 'organization,' an orgaization that doesn't have the same resources and history, a team that doesn't have that caliber of players and what do we have?

He had a terrible fg%, TO ratio, he was kinda bad to be honest. Sure he had his moments, but the numbers don't lie. And THIS IS WITH A GREAT CAST!!!! Imagine how much he'd struggle in a different environment?

Imagine how much he'd b!tch and complain on a different organization?

I doubt he's even a multiple all star, let alone a top 25 player of all time.

YES I'M DEAD SERIOUS...... no hate at all.

He was like Larry Hughes as far as athleticism, and style of play. Yes he worked very hard, and of course he'd eventually be better than Larry Hughes (which aint saying much) but put him in a different enviroment, he is NOT the Kobe that we know today.

Now.... put Tmac or a few other players in his shoes from day 1.... and we'd be probably talking about them.

Hell.... its not too hard to imagine Wade in his shoes, and know the outcome will be almost the same... or Penny's.

And that's what Kobe stans can't comprehend when they cry....... "Well its double standards for MJ and Kobe"

OF COURSE ITS A DOUBLE STANDARD!!!!!!

One was basically given everything, while the other had to make his opportunities. Its like comparing a spoiled rich kid and a low class kid, the standards are different.

This is pretty bad.

[DCpup]

Bottom line, T-Mac had a year for the ages in 02-03 and he was as good or a little better than 02-03 Kobe. But to act like he was superior in almost all areas of basketball is flawed.

Not to mention, he has never come close to replicating that season since.

[andgar923]

A. I don't agree with that and can't find any evidence to support that. If anything, T-Mac's supposed "superior athleticism and size" allowed him to get away with not being as skilled as Kobe. Despite being smaller, less athletic, and dumber, he still managed to put up similar numbers. I wonder how?



Btw.... I never mentioned 'superior' I did however mention that Tmac was 'slightly' better than Kobe in the areas I described, BUT his size (are you denying now that he isn't taller and longer than Kobe?) gave him the extra advantage. That sounds like a very logical and rational conclusion, don't you think? To say that if player: A is either equal or slightly better, has a slight advantage over player B mainly due to his size and length. Yeah... that's very "superior!"

And you wanna know why they've put up similar numbers? Howabout playing with superior teammates, coach, system, organization. And that's no knock on Kobe, that's just FACT. Did he not play with Shaq the most dominant basketball player since Shaq? did he not play in one of the most successful organizations in team sports? did he not play under one of the most winningest system of all time? These are all very legit non-biased arguments.

And if you saw Tmac play during that period, you'd understand why many considered him better than Kobe.


As for T-Mac's psyche wearing down, I agree. Not winning does take it's toll on you.


On most players... yes.


Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. He may not have won as many championships but his individual accomplishments may have been greater on a team where he was the #1 option. I certainly don't think he could have done any worse than his peers.


He might not have been any worse than his peers, but he wouldn't have had the career he did. Most of his career he played along with Shaq, a player that allowed him to make mistakes, a player that allowed him to face less double teams, a player that allowed him to maximize his potential. You're assumptions are no more correct than mine. So this is a moot point.


And how do we know that he would have acted the same put in a different situation? You can't take 04-07 as an example because he had already been used to winning by then. Kobe's impatience during '07, asking for a trade and all, was most likely caused by him being used to winning, the team not going anywhere, and knowing he was slowing down and couldn't keep up his level of play for long.


This is where your bias clearly shows. Kobe has been all the things I just mentioned for his entire career excluding the past 2 seasons (and some might even argue that). AND THIS IS PLAYING WITH A SILVER SPOON!!! How are things gonna be any different if he plays in a tougher situation? He was everything I mentioned since he was a rookie. Before he won the rings, during the championship runs and after. That's his nature, he's been described as such by his high school coach as well. You honestly think a loosing situation in a lesser environment is gonna make him into a poster child? C'mon be realistic here.... I'm surprised some of you are even defending this. Some of my other comments I understand... but THIS?!?


I'm not going to act like those adjectives you used do not apply to Kobe but they are inherent in a lot of young players. Kobe was no different and being in an environment where he was used to winning and winning a lot probably helped that.


My bad... I take back some of the stuff I just mentioned above (too lazy to edit). But the FACT still remains.... he was everything I mentioned.


Explain this. He was "kinda bad"? That's not being honest. That's ridiculous.

From as a starter from age 20 to 24 he averaged:

99: 19.9pts/5.3reb/3.8ast on 46.5%
00: 22.5/6.3/4.9 on 46.8%
01: 28.5/5.9/5.0 on 46.4%
02: 25.2/5.5/5.5 on 46.9%
03: 30.0/6.9/5.9 on 45.1%

Not to mention the numerous successful playoff runs.

In what what f*cking world do you live in where that is bad? Bad compared to who? Vince? AI? TMac? Answer: none of them. He was easily on par with all mentioned and I don't think anyone expected him to advance to the levels he did by his 7th year on draft day.

Well..... I take partial credit for not being clear. Most of the post is addressing Kobe as a ROOKIE. Which is why, if he came into the league from day 1 in an entirely different scenario. And its why I alluded to some of the things I did. But I didn't explicitly mention his ROOKIE season just implied it, that's my bad. We all know that he eventually went on to have a hall of fame career, that's a moot argument, because that wasn't what I was arguing.

My argument was this:

Kobe was handed a better card than some of his contemporaries. And since we were arguing Tmac vs Kobe, I mentioned that if we take everything that we know of Kobe, place him in a different environment since day 1, looking at his attitude and poor play from his first couple seasons.... we probably won't be referring to him like we currently do.

How many teams would be willing to put up with a player that doesn't produce like promised and acts like a child? Now.... I'm not saying that he wouldn't be a good-great player. All I'm saying is, we probably wouldn't be mentioning him as one of the all time greats if he didn't have the foundation that groomed him and allowed him to flourish. I think that's a very fair assumption based on what we know.


And then you penalize him for being on a great team? Why? It doesn't make any less of a player. With his talent level, his efficiency might have been down but his numbers across the board wouldn't be any different in my opinion. Basketball players with that level of talent tend to adapt to their environments pretty easily.

I didn't penalize him, I was pointing out his failures as a young player. If a player isn't efficient even tho he has a strong veteran supporting cast. How in the world would he be more efficient if he didn't? That means more pressure, more double teams, more losing, more finger pointing, etc.etc.

If you're not efficient and you have almost wide open shots, what makes you think that being constantly trapped and doubled is gonna make him more efficient? If his turnover ratio is bad with a good veteran cast around him, what makes you think having scrub players gonna make that any better?

I'm talking about a YOUNG Rookie Kobe here. Not a multiple All Star 13 year vet..... HUGE difference.



Once again we don't know. You can assume by what you think Kobe behaves on and off the court but there's no telling how starting off on an average or bad team would have affected his outlook and mentality on the game. In my opinion, it probably would have been a good thing for him.

He didn't start that experience until the '05 season. He grew up a lot in 4 years and the organization eventually putting good teams around him helped too. Now the process might have been much slower had he started off with the Hornets but I think he still could have won a championship eventually.

You're contradicting yourself and making my argument for me.... THANKS!

Blue part: Right!


No, not really. Hughes never had the body control Kobe has. Leaping ability, arguable. Style of play wise, Kobe was more mid-range oriented than Larry was. The shot charts bare this out.

Once again.... my entire post was under the assumption that everybody understood I was describing a ROOKIE or very early Kobe. But once again... I apologize for not being specific and assuming people grasped what I was inferring. So my apologies to everybody/anybody that didn't understand what I was trying to convey.




Now it's obivous we are on different planes. I'm thinking Kobe's talent and determination would lead him eventually to still be successful but probably not 4 championships(best case scario). You are thinking worst case scenario, where Kobe's immaturity and arrogance would have lead him down a road of mediocrity. Most likely, it would be somewhere between the two.

Like Kobe said, he wanted to go to a good team to win. If he had started off on a bad team his stats most likely would have been even better early on in his career.

I actually mentioned that he'd probably win a few all stars. That's not bad, and its actually hall of fame worthy, but I still doubt that he'd be the "Kobe" that we know of today.

And of course my post is mostly based under the assumption that Kobe gets drafted by a bad team, which most top draft picks usually do.

And like many of his contemporaries, they're plagued with issues after issues after issues, which eventually affects their game play.

Kobe's been fortunate to be in a winning situation, which erases alot of his issues.

A few things to consider.

The Lakers were extremely supportive and bent over backwards towards Kobe's immaturity, something most teams don't usually do. His coaches didn't like coaching him, his teammates didn't like playing with him, and he was a distant, selfish, arrogant player.... not after Shaq left, he didn't become that.... he was that way since day 1.

Now.... you mentioned he'd get better stats.

How many teams are gonna let him get away with an un-efficient selfish player like the Lakers did?

Again.... he wouldn't have Shaq to erase for his mistakes and on the court selfishness. That means that he'd lose more time than not. With a worse supporting cast he wouldn't be as efficient and he'd really struggle.

How do we know this?

A. He was struggling as a young player with a strong supporting cast.... FACT
B. He wasn't very efficient, was considered selfish, and a chucker when he didn't have such a strong cast.... and this was as a 10 year vet!!...... another FACT

You combine the two:

A young player with a weak cast.

Add a franchise that's more likely than not, as supportive, players that don't like him, coaches that don't wanna coach him, more loses.

My theory is composed of data that we know are true.

So its one thing to disagree, its another to laugh and simply dismiss it based on subjectivity.

[KenneBell]

The Lakers were extremely supportive and bent over backwards towards Kobe's immaturity, something most teams don't usually do. His coaches didn't like coaching him, his teammates didn't like playing with him, and he was a distant, selfish, arrogant player.... not after Shaq left, he didn't become that.... he was that way since day 1.
Opinion. Yes, he might have had disagreements with coaches and teammates but on a younger team, that might not have been the case. He was thrust on to a team of veterans. It's kind of hard to connect with player 5-10 years older than you. His friendship with Derek Fisher, who went through the same grind, shows that he was able to connect and trust those who were in the same situation.


Now.... you mentioned he'd get better stats.

How many teams are gonna let him get away with an un-efficient selfish player like the Lakers did?

Again.... he wouldn't have Shaq to erase for his mistakes and on the court selfishness. That means that he'd lose more time than not. With a worse supporting cast he wouldn't be as efficient and he'd really struggle.
Why would he really struggle? There's nothing in his game that points to him being any worse than Vince, TMac or AI at leading a team. If they teams let those guys have free reign, it wouldn't be out of the question to let Kobe do the same.

I don't think he'd have any problems shooting at least 43%.








A. He was struggling as a young player with a strong supporting cast.... FACT
B. He wasn't very efficient, was considered selfish, and a chucker when he didn't have such a strong cast.... and this was as a 10 year vet!!...... another FACT
A. Where are you getting this "struggling as a young player" from? What points to that? His first two years? At the time that was probably expected of a teenager in the NBA. It wasn't even that bad. :oldlol:

B. Since when do you have to be "very" efficient as a 2 guard? Yes, he was considered selfish. That was his job. Phil put him in position to score as much as could to keep the team afloat. He adjusted his game as his team got better.

Like I said, in the other post, you can't take Kobe's situation from 04-07 and just assume that he would play the same at the beginning of his career, then extrapolate it to the next 13 years.


You combine the two:

A young player with a weak cast.

Add a franchise that's more likely than not, as supportive, players that don't like him, coaches that don't wanna coach him, more loses.

My theory is composed of data that we know are true.

So its one thing to disagree, its another to laugh and simply dismiss it based on subjectivity.
Like I said, he wasn't going to be as successful wins wise. That's why he went to the Lakers in the first place.

Again, you are just assuming that players, coaches, etc. aren't going to like him. What kind of sense does that make? Honestly?

Much of your data isn't based off of hard numbers. Just conjecture.

I'm done with this thread.

[andgar923]

Opinion. Yes, he might have had disagreements with coaches and teammates but on a younger team, that might not have been the case. He was thrust on to a team of veterans. It's kind of hard to connect with player 5-10 years older than you. His friendship with Derek Fisher, who went through the same grind, shows that he was able to connect and trust those who were in the same situation.


Why would he really struggle? There's nothing in his game that points to him being any worse than Vince, TMac or AI at leading a team. If they teams let those guys have free reign, it wouldn't be out of the question to let Kobe do the same.

I don't think he'd have any problems shooting at least 43%.








A. Where are you getting this "struggling as a young player" from? What points to that? His first two years? At the time that was probably expected of a teenager in the NBA. It wasn't even that bad. :oldlol:

B. Since when do you have to be "very" efficient as a 2 guard? Yes, he was considered selfish. That was his job. Phil put him in position to score as much as could to keep the team afloat. He adjusted his game as his team got better.

Like I said, in the other post, you can't take Kobe's situation from 04-07 and just assume that he would play the same at the beginning of his career, then extrapolate it to the next 13 years.


Like I said, he wasn't going to be as successful wins wise. That's why he went to the Lakers in the first place.

Again, you are just assuming that players, coaches, etc. aren't going to like him. What kind of sense does that make? Honestly?

Much of your data isn't based off of hard numbers. Just conjecture.

I'm done with this thread.

Ehh.. why bother.

[Younggrease]

Of course you'd find it hilarious, since you have no other way to refute it in an intelligent coherent manner, you resort to quick soundbites that'll get a laugh from Kobe fans AND mostly Kobe fans.

Any objective basketball fan will see what I'm saying and mostly agree with it.

no your just talking out of your ass...there is no basis of fact in any of them just hypos based of absolutely nothing

you said you "doubt he would be a multiple all star"...thats absurd and everything you say regarding Kobe should now be seen as tainted through the view of an irrational hater.