All-Time Best Defenders (DHOF)

[GP_20]

All-Time Best Defenders



Here is something you can call the Defensive HOF. The best defenders in the history of the game. All of these players were recognized for their defense, and have left a mark defensively. Some because of their shot-blocking ability, others because of their quick hands. Some had great team defense, others great individual defense. The only thing in common between all these players, is that they were great defenders.


Defensive HOF



Listed in Chronological Order




http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/boston/KCJonesBos.jpg
G: KC Jones (1959-1967)


http://www.hickoksports.com/images/auerbach_red.jpg
C: B.Russell (1957-1969)


http://www.nba.com/lakers/images/wilt_lakers_hp.jpg
C: W.Chamberlain (1960-1973)


http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/011204Photo_Satch3.jpg
F: T.Sanders (1961-1973)


http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/west_bio_lg.jpg
G: J.West (1961-1974)


http://www.sportsfanfare.net/images/large/WM3-003L.JPG
F: D.DeBusschere (1963-1974)


http://www.nba.com/media/history/bulls_sloan_white.jpg
F: J. Sloan (1966-1976)


http://www.nba.com/media/warriors/60Years_NateThurmond_150.jpg
C: N.Thurmond (1964-1977)

[GP_20]

http://www.onlinesports.com/images/phf-aaei036.gif
F: J.Havlicek (1963-1978)


http://www.bullshome.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Norm-Van-Lier.jpg
G: N. Van Lier (1970-1979)


http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/nba/2002/0430/photo/s_walt_sp.jpg
G: W.Frazier (1968-1980)


http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/files/2010/06/Dave-Cowens.jpg
C: D.Cowens (1971-1983)


http://www.hotstoveleague.org/images/BuseDribbleNice.jpg
G: D.Buse (1973-1985)


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/phil76/Bjonesphl.jpg
F: B.Jones (1975-1986)


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/e/e7/Walton1.jpg
C: B.Walton (1975-1987)


http://www.celtic-nation.com/images/interview_photos/artis_gilmore5.jpg
C: A.Gilmore (1972-1988)


http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1390000/images/_1393428_jabar150.jpg
C: K.Abdul-Jabbar (1970-1989)

[GP_20]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o4281zXaAFc/Rd4NGaJG5xI/AAAAAAAAAcw/ppCpAjjdA60/s400/dennis_johnson.jpg
G: D.Johnson (1973-1990)


http://www.naxcom.com/images/michaelcooperlakers.jpg
F: M.Cooper (1979-1990)


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/milwaukee/moncriefMil.JPG
G: S.Moncrief (1980-1991)


http://hunterherald.blogharbor.com/AAFH016_small.jpg
G: M.Cheeks (1979-1993)


http://www.hickoksports.com/images/mchale_kevin.jpg
F: K.McHale (1981-1993)


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/utah/EatonJazz.jpg
C: M.Eaton (1983-1993)


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nba/sanantonio/RobertsonSA.jpg
G: A.Robertson (1985-1996)


http://sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/dumars90si-1.jpg
G: J.Dumars (1986-1999)


http://www.exposay.com/celebrity-photos2/dennis%20rodman.jpg
F: D.Rodman (1987-2000)

[GP_20]

http://www.hahmed.com/temp/olajuwon.jpg
C: H.Olajuwon (1985-2002)


http://sports.espn.go.com/media/pg2/2001/0305/photo/a_ewing2_i.jpg
C: P.Ewing (1986-2002)


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/d/da/Act_mookie_blaylock.jpg
G: M.Blaylock (1990-2002)


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/b/b4/Jazz_stockton_240.jpg
G: J.Stockton (1985-2003)


http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/nba/1999/1225/photo/s_mj.jpg
G: M.Jordan (1985-2003)


http://www.hickoksports.com/images/robinson_david.jpg
C: D.Robinson (1990-2003)


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/07/19/pippen_bulls_ap/t1_pippen_all.jpg
F: S.Pippen (1988-2004)


http://a.espncdn.com/media/nba/2002/1101/photo/payton_i.jpg
G: G.Payton (1991-2007)


http://www.cnnsi.com/2003/basketball/nba/12/05/h2h.zo/p1_zoyes_all.jpg
C: A.Mourning (1993-2008)

[GP_20]

http://www.nba.com/media/nuggets/dmutombo_nuggets_04_200.jpg
C: D.Mutumbo (1992-2009)


http://sports.espn.go.com/media/nba/2003/0507/photo/a_bowen_vi.jpg
F: B.Bowen (1997-2009)


http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/01/30/amd_jason_kidd1.jpg
G: J.Kidd (1995- )


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d-nXiaazaN0/SedCd2jODbI/AAAAAAAAANg/VJTtIAUUbLE/s400/pg2_a_garnett_3001.jpg
F: K.Garnett (1996- )


http://www.nba.com/media/act_kobe_bryant.jpg
G: K.Bryant (1997- )


http://www.sports-gallery.com/images/benwallacereboundNEW.jpg
C: B.Wallace (1997- )


http://www.nuggetshoops.com/images/summaries/playoffs-twolves-camby.gif
C: M.Camby (1997- )


http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/nba/2005/0623/photo/g_duncan_195.jpg
F: T.Duncan (1998- )


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/01/29/artest_suspension_ap/t1_artest_ap.jpg
F: R.Artest (2000- )


C: T.Chandler (2001- )


F: L.James (2003- )


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/4/4b/Act_dwight_howard.jpg
C: D.Howard (2005- )

[GP_20]

So now the only questions...


Agree or Disagree? Anyone that should be added or maybe removed?

[NuggetsFan]

So now the only questions...


Agree or Disagree? Anyone that should be added or maybe removed?

Just looking over that list quickly I'd say Camby doesn't belong. But I've always kinda thought his defense has been overrated. He's a good shotblocker\rebounder but I wouldn't throw in in the same spot as the rest of the list IMO.

[kshutts1]

The only name I question is Jerry West.

Why is he up there? I thought he was known for his scoring prowess, and wasn't a strong defender?

Please educate me.

[AirJordan23]

Marcus Camby has no business being on that list. I hope you didn't base it on his DPOY or a few all defensive selections. Otherwise, it's a very solid list. Good job.

[magnax1]

Woohoo you put in stockton! Anyway, extremely well done list. I really cant think of anyone atm who deserves to be on there. Except maybe someone like Kirilenko, or Mahorn.

[GP_20]

Just looking over that list quickly I'd say Camby doesn't belong. But I've always kinda thought his defense has been overrated. He's a good shotblocker\rebounder but I wouldn't throw in in the same spot as the rest of the list IMO.
Don't look at who else is on the list when deciding if he should be there, I mean, don't look at the best and then think does he belong there. Remember both Michael Jordan and Joe Dumars are in the same HOF, though Dumars was nowhere near the player Jordan was.

So the point is, don't see Camby and Russell, and say Camby doesn't belong.



But anyways, yeah he's been kind of overrated, nonetheless, he's been a great shot blocker all his career. He singlehandedly pretty much made the Nuggets a top 10 team defensively, and has won DPOY. DPOY, is equivalent of a MVP in the NBA....and everyone who has won an MVP is in the HOF for comparison's sake.

[redhonda76]

Camby shouldn't be in the list.
Jerry West is also a question mark.

[john_d]

i love the logo but... hmmm... well ok if you say so.

[GP_20]

Marcus Camby has no business being on that list. I hope you didn't base it on his DPOY or a few all defensive selections. Otherwise, it's a very solid list. Good job.
Like I said, he singlehandedly made the Nuggets a top 10 team in the league defensively. But otherwise, he's been one of the best shot-blockers in NBA history. Yes, his shot-blocking has been historic. Since they have started counting blocks, Camby, Eaton, and Jabbar hold the record for most blocks per game titles, with 4 each.

Though he might've gambled a lot, just leading the league that many times in blocks is impressive.

[GP_20]

The only name I question is Jerry West.

Why is he up there? I thought he was known for his scoring prowess, and wasn't a strong defender?

Please educate me.

It's funny how underrated Jerry West's defense has become...


Well anyways, yes he was one of the top defenders in the league during his time. He had lengthy arms, and was able to get a lot of steals that way. Also was a pretty good shot-blocker for a guard, and was able to effect jump-shots with those long arms. He had great hands as well.


All-Defensive teams awards started in 1969. West was already 30 by then, but he made All-Defensive teams for 5 years in a row. Including, 4 All-Defensive 1sts. If they kept them for all 14 years he played, he could've easily had at least 10 All-D selections.

Lastly, the NBA kept steals for just 1 year of West's career, that was his last at age 35. He still got 2.6spg. Many call him the best ball theif ever, just imagine his spg if they kept that stat all his career.

[GP_20]

Woohoo you put in stockton! Anyway, extremely well done list. I really cant think of anyone atm who deserves to be on there. Except maybe someone like Kirilenko, or Mahorn.
Oh trust me, Stockton barely made it.

[magnax1]

West wasn't a great one on one defender, but was able to amass a lot of steals. Sort of like CP3 and AI.
Edit: I didn't really expect Stock on there, thats why I said that. He was a pretty terrible defender after he was about 31. Though he was a great defender before then.

[AirJordan23]

Like I said, he singlehandedly made the Nuggets a top 10 team in the league defensively. But otherwise, he's been one of the best shot-blockers in NBA history. Yes, his shot-blocking has been historic. Since they have started counting blocks, Camby, Eaton, and Jabbar hold the record for most blocks per game titles, with 4 each.

Though he might've gambled a lot, just leading the league that many times in blocks is impressive.
Here's the thing. I can't compare Camby to guys like Russell or basically anyone pre-1990. From what I've watched, he wasn't deserving of those all defensive selections. Lets face it, his RPG and BPG are the only reason he got DPOY. When you actually watch him play, you'll realize how much he gambles, is an average at best post defender, subpar PNR defender and not that great at denying position. His length gives him the ability to contest shots very well. He isn't very bulked so he gets abused by some of the skilled post players in the league which aren't many to begin with. He doesn't even contest shots sometimes and lets the man roll by him. He does alter shots but not to a degree to a normal DPOY would. And you brought up the Nuggets being top 10 in defense with Camby. They didn't see a drop of without him. Obviously, it has something to do with some of the guys they acquired (Birdman, Billups). But, one has to note that bigs have the most defensive impact out of all positions due to controlling the paint and anchoring the defense. The '09 Nuggets were rated 8th defensively allowing 106.8 PPG per 100 possessions which is only .5 PPG more than what they were an year before. And it's not like they replaced Camby with a great defender. Nene is a solid post-defender but not much of a shot blocker. He doesn't have enough defensive impact to warrant a rank on an all time list IMO.

[GP_20]

West wasn't a great one on one defender, but was able to amass a lot of steals. Sort of like CP3 and AI.
Edit: I didn't really expect Stock on there, thats why I said that. He was a pretty terrible defender after he was about 31. Though he was a great defender before then.
West was much better 1on1 than AI or CP3. Like I said, he had long arms to effect shots, and his defensive was regarded as "tenacious" by many sources. But at the end of the day, a guy who would've easily made at least 10 All-D teams, deserves to be there. Remember, after age 30, when they first started counting All-D teams, he made 5, including 4 All-D 1st.

The main reason I put Stockton in there is because this is like the D HOF, and he is the All-Time leader in steals, so just for a career accomplishment like that, he belongs there.

[Younggrease]

West wasn't a great one on one defender, but was able to amass a lot of steals. Sort of like CP3 and AI.
Edit: I didn't really expect Stock on there, thats why I said that. He was a pretty terrible defender after he was about 31. Though he was a great defender before then.
Maybe I just dont remember but I dont remember Stockton ever being this "great defender"...hard nosed = yes; competitor = yes; Great= nope

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

So now the only questions...


Agree or Disagree? Anyone that should be added or maybe removed?

nice job GP20.
:cheers:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Maybe I just dont remember but I dont remember Stockton ever being this "great defender"...hard nosed = yes; competitor = yes; Great= nope

he was, indeed, "great".
seriously one of the best PG defenders of all time. maybe not GP's class, but certainly up there.

[GP_20]

Here's the thing. I can't compare Camby to guys like Russell or basically anyone pre-1990. From what I've watched, he wasn't deserving of those all defensive selections. Lets face it, his RPG and BPG are the only reason he got DPOY. When you actually watch him play, you'll realize how much he gambles, is an average at best post defender, subpar PNR defender and not that great at denying position. His length gives him the ability to contest shots very well. He isn't very bulked so he gets abused by some of the skilled post players in the league which aren't many to begin with. He doesn't even contest shots sometimes and lets the man roll by him. He does alter shots but not to a degree to a normal DPOY would. And you brought up the Nuggets being top 10 in defense with Camby. They didn't see a drop of without him. Obviously, it has something to do with some of the guys they acquired (Birdman, Billups). But, one has to note that bigs have the most defensive impact out of all positions due to controlling the paint and anchoring the defense. The '09 Nuggets were rated 8th defensively allowing 106.8 PPG per 100 possessions which is only .5 PPG more than what they were an year before. And it's not like they replaced Camby with a great defender. Nene is a solid post-defender but not much of a shot blocker. He doesn't have enough defensive impact to warrant a rank on an all time list IMO.

Like I said, you can't compare Camby and Russell in this, just like you don't compare Joe Dumars and Michael Jordan when selecting Joe Dumars for the NBA HOF. Just because Jordan and Russell are WAY better, doesn't mean Camby or Dumars belong in the HOF. Get my analogy?

But I used the DPOY sort of like the NBA used the MVP in selecting HOFs, every MVP is in the NBA HOF.

I know he gambles a lot, but his shot-blocking is historic as I showed earlier. I guess in the end it's close, but remember, you aren't comparing him against the best in the list. Compare his defense to someone like Kobe's defense, and tell me if Camby is not on that level.

[GP_20]

Maybe I just dont remember but I dont remember Stockton ever being this "great defender"...hard nosed = yes; competitor = yes; Great= nope
Read why he is on this list in my previous post about him...Most these players are on it because of their prime defense, Stockton it's more his career.

[L.Kizzle]

Jerry West is not a question mark, he belongs.

Gus Johnson, Sam Jones could be added. Some centers Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld could be considered.

[magnax1]

Maybe I just dont remember but I dont remember Stockton ever being this "great defender"...hard nosed = yes; competitor = yes; Great= nope
Idk, he always seemed pretty good to me, maybe not at the same level as the other players on here, but still a good defender.

[GP_20]

Jerry West is not a question mark, he belongs.

Gus Johnson, Sam Jones could be added. Some centers Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld could be considered.
Yes those are some close calls. I think Cowens has the best argument for a possible addition to the list.

[Al Thornton]

Just looking over that list quickly I'd say Camby doesn't belong. But I've always kinda thought his defense has been overrated. He's a good shotblocker\rebounder but I wouldn't throw in in the same spot as the rest of the list IMO.
:oldlol: everyone on here underrates Camby. Good list.

[Anti404]

many will probably disagree with me, but I believe Shaquille deserves a spot on this; he had a few all defensive selections, but that's not my reasoning as to why. he was a great shot-blocker, great rebounder, and huge, intimidating presence in the post. his pick and roll defense is pretty sub-par, but his post defense is pretty great.

[GP_20]

:oldlol: everyone on here underrates Camby. Good list.
:oldlol:
See I'm not the only one who thinks Camby is overrated.

[AirJordan23]

Like I said, you can't compare Camby and Russell in this, just like you don't compare Joe Dumars and Michael Jordan when selecting Joe Dumars for the NBA HOF. Just because Jordan and Russell are WAY better, doesn't mean Camby or Dumars belong in the HOF. Get my analogy?

But I used the DPOY sort of like the NBA used the MVP in selecting HOFs, every MVP is in the NBA HOF.

I know he gambles a lot, but his shot-blocking is historic as I showed earlier. I guess in the end it's close, but remember, you aren't comparing him against the best in the list. Compare his defense to someone like Kobe's defense, and tell me if Camby is not on that level.
Well, if you're solely basing this on shot blocking, then I can see a case for him. But, in terms of overall defensive impact, I can't. And I don't necessarily agree with your DPOY/HOF/MVP comparison. Some players are a victim of certain circumstances such as most people feel guys like AI, Nash, Malone didn't deserve their MVPs, most people also feel Duncan has deserved several DPOYs etc. So, just to include them based on an individual awards that they might not have deserved shouldn't be the criteria unless put into proper context.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

many will probably disagree with me, but I believe Shaquille deserves a spot on this; he had a few all defensive selections, but that's not my reasoning as to why. he was a great shot-blocker, great rebounder, and huge, intimidating presence in the post. his pick and roll defense is pretty sub-par, but his post defense is pretty great.

Shaq couldn't guard a lamp post. he strength was merely his massive size taking up the paint.
seriously.

[GP_20]

Well, if you're solely basing this on shot blocking, then I can see a case for him. But, in terms of overall defensive impact, I can't. And I don't necessarily agree with your DPOY/HOF/MVP comparison. Some players are a victim of certain circumstances such as most people feel guys like AI, Nash, Malone didn't deserve their MVPs, most people also feel Duncan has deserved several DPOYs etc. So, just to include them based on an individual awards that they might not have deserved shouldn't be the criteria unless put into proper context.

But at the end of the day, Malone, Nash, AI, are all going to the HOF. And all the other non-deserving MVPs are also going to the HOF. That's what I was getting at, whether deserved or not, all the MVPs are in the NBA HOF.

And yeah he is a great shot-blocker, and really just the presence of a shot-blocker like him can do a lot. It really makes a team adjust their game plan when facing a defender like him.

But I know what you mean, it's pretty close. And believe me, he was one of the last ones to be added.

[magnax1]

:oldlol:
See I'm not the only one who thinks Camby is overrated.
I think hes pretty under rated too, hes been a top five defender in the league most every year his been here (except the years he was injured in Denver). He basically carried Denver on Defense the past three years.

[GP_20]

I think hes pretty under rated too, hes been a top five defender in the league most every year his been here (except the years he was injured in Denver). He basically carried Denver on Defense the past three years.
Then why don't you counter AirJordan's arguments. :oldlol:

I think he is overrated, but still barely good enough to make this list. Yet even though I think he is overrated, I'm forced to argue for him.

[L.Kizzle]

Charles Oakley anyone??

[ShaqAttack3234]

The list seems complete to me.

Edit: I somehow forgot about Oakley. That 1990's Knicks team was my favorite with Ewing, Oakley, Starks, Anthony Mason, Derek Harper ect.


Shaq couldn't guard a lamp post. he strength was merely his massive size taking up the paint.
seriously.

The only thing Shaq didn't do defensively is guard jump shooters well. He was a good post defender, a dominant presence blocking shots and rebounder among the league leaders most years and scaring people away from the paint. He wasn't a great defender, but he had a great impact defensively.

[Anti404]

Charles Oakley anyone??
yes.

[L.Kizzle]

One of the forwards from the Minny Lakers, Pollard or Mikkleson was a great defender, Jermaine O'Neal maybe. Doug Christie maybe also?

[GP_20]

Charles Oakley anyone??
I don't know about Oakley

He made 2 All-Defensive teams in his career. He played in a big market too. Also, never was really that injured...He wasn't a Center either, a foward, yet he made 2...I'm running out of excuses...


He was a great post-defender, physical, strong, etc. Not a shot-blocking threat though.


And no excuse, especially as a foward, for 2 All-D teams.

[L.Kizzle]

I don't know about Oakley

He made 2 All-Defensive teams in his career. He played in a big market too. Also, never was really that injured...He wasn't a Center either, a foward, yet he made 2...I'm running out of excuses...


He was a great post-defender, physical, strong, etc. Not a shot-blocking threat though.


And no excuse, especially as a foward, for 2 All-D teams.
Who were the forwards making it over him on the regular, Pippen, Rodman, and who else?

Just thought of someone else, Buck Williams

[GP_20]

Who were the forwards making it over him on the regular, Pippen, Rodman, and who else?

Just thought of someone else, Buck Williams
Yeah I considered all of them. But I think they would be a level below anyone else on the list. Buck Williams, also a 4 Time All-D selection on the foward spot. He had longevity too, but that's as far as he got.


I mean, I know Oakley and Buck were good, but they weren't great. Both good post defenders, who weren't good shot blockers, but they weren't great.

[magnax1]

Wade? He might deserve it, unless you ignore him because hes to young. Maybe Clyde too.

[L.Kizzle]

Yeah I considered all of them. But I think they would be a level below anyone else on the list. Buck Williams, also a 4 Time All-D selection on the foward spot. He had longevity too, but that's as far as he got.


I mean, I know Oakley and Buck were good, but they weren't great. Both good post defenders, who weren't good shot blockers, but they weren't great.
They were both power forwards, how many power forwards were great shot blockers, not Dennis Rodman or anyone else.

[GP_20]

Wade? He might deserve it, unless you ignore him because hes to young. Maybe Clyde too.
Drexler? No :oldlol:
This is an All-Time best defender list people, just keep that in mind.


Wade, maybe later, but no way right now. Dwight is the closest one to entering, but even him, despite his DPOY, I think needs at least a few more years in his career to enter it.

[Snoop_Cat]

What would you say your all time defensive 1st,2nd,3rd teams are from this crowd?

[GP_20]

They were both power forwards, how many power forwards were great shot blockers, not Dennis Rodman or anyone else.
Yeah but, come on Kizzle, 4 All-D selections? 2? Why? There's really no excuse. They were great 1on1 defenders, but overall their defense was just good. As a big man you have to be able to alter shots, or be really really good at everything else, like Rodman. Not many other bigmen on this list who can't block shots. And especially with 2 or 4 All-D teams as a foward, chances are slim.


Cowens though, he might have the best argument for the ones not already in. That was a good mention.

[GP_20]

What would you say your all time defensive 1st,2nd,3rd teams are from this crowd?
:roll:
Of course?

That's 15 players, and this list has over 40. All-Time defensive teams are composed of 2 guards, 2 fowards, and 1 center on each team, total of 6 guards, 6 fowards, and 3 centers.

And there are way more guards, fowards, and Cs listed in the DHOF.


So common sense says, without a doubt. Why even ask a question so obvious? Like what was in your head when asking this? Common sense could've answered it.

[kshutts1]

doug christie, as mentioned earlier, seems to be an omission

What about stacey augmon? I remember him just because of his defensive prowess...

[GP_20]

Doug Christie was a solid mention too. Definitely considered. Though I think his 4 All-D selections, would be the fewest among all the guards listed.


I think he also fits into the category of "good", but not great. So do other guards such as Eddie Jones, etc.

[Snoop_Cat]

:roll:
Of course?

That's 15 players, and this list has over 40. All-Time defensive teams are composed of 2 guards, 2 fowards, and 1 center on each team, total of 6 guards, 6 fowards, and 3 centers.

And there are way more guards, fowards, and Cs listed in the DHOF.


So common sense says, without a doubt. Why even ask a question so obvious? Like what was in your head when asking this? Common sense could've answered it.

What the f*ck?

I was essentially asking you to make All-D teams from the people you listed, in other words, the best 6/3 people by general position

As in:
1st team:
G:Bob
G:Sam
F:Jon
F:Rob
C:Jamal

What the hell was so hard to understand about that. I try to ask you an actual question and you somehow try to find a way to try to insult me lmao. Glad you understood an easily worded question and your comprehension powers are still great.

[L.Kizzle]

What the f*ck?

I was essentially asking you to make All-D teams from the people you listed, in other words, the best 6 people by general position

As in:
1st team:
G:Bob
G:Sam
F:Jon
F:Rob
C:Jamal

What the hell was so hard to understand about that. I try to ask you an actual question and you somehow try to find a way to try to insult me lmao
LOL at Jamal.

[L.Kizzle]

:roll:
Of course?

That's 15 players, and this list has over 40. All-Time defensive teams are composed of 2 guards, 2 fowards, and 1 center on each team, total of 6 guards, 6 fowards, and 3 centers.

And there are way more guards, fowards, and Cs listed in the DHOF.


So common sense says, without a doubt. Why even ask a question so obvious? Like what was in your head when asking this? Common sense could've answered it.
I was checking some of those D-Teams from the 90s'. Larry Nance, Derrick McKey and Horace Grant were there a ton. Nance is the best from those three.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Oh, I got one for ya....

Nate McMillan

When asked who defended him the best, Magic Johnson said Nate easily.

[GP_20]

I was checking some of those D-Teams from the 90s'. Larry Nance, Derrick McKey and Horace Grant were there a ton. Nance is the best from those three.
Yeah all good defenders....


Do you think Cowens should be on there? Like really? Not as an honorable mention (like the guys you have been saying)..But actually be there.

[GP_20]

Oh, I got one for ya....

Nate McMillan

When asked who defended him the best, Magic Johnson said Nate easily.
I'm 97% confident Magic said Dennis Johnson guarded him the best. I think you might be confusing someone with someone else.

Also, McMillan is also a good mention. But not great...And believe me, I've watched him a lot. Great at steals, playing passing lanes, etc. But not good enough for this list.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I'm 97% confident Magic said Dennis Johnson guarded him the best. I think you might be confusing someone with someone else.

Also, McMillan is also a good mention. But not great...And believe me, I've watched him a lot. Great at steals, playing passing lanes, etc. But not good enough for this list.

pretty sure Magic said Nate, but you may be right.
I wonder if I can find that via google?

[GP_20]

pretty sure Magic said Nate.
I wonder if I can find that via google?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/214639-why-isnt-this-defensive-wizard-in-the-hall-of-fame

"Magic Johnson called him the toughest backcourt defender of all-time".

Another one
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/23/sports/basketball/23johnson.html


When the Celtics retired Johnson’s No. 3 in a Boston Garden ceremony in December 1991, Magic Johnson, the retired Los Angeles Lakers star, sent a telegram calling him “the best backcourt defender of all time.”

[G-train]

Shawn Marion should be on the list. One of the most underrated and versatile defenders in the history of the NBA. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
:D

[G-train]

Also Paul Silas and Manute Bol would be close to making it also. Silas made a few All D teams and Bol is second in career blocks per game I think. If Camby is in it he should be.

[L.Kizzle]

Also Paul Silas and Manute Bol would be close to making it also.
MAnute Bol, come on man, also Paul Pressey.

[GP_20]

Shawn Marion should be on the list. One of the most underrated and versatile defenders in the history of the NBA. If you don't believe me, just ask him.
:D
:oldlol:
I'll assume you were joking



But anyways, Pressey, Bol, Silas, all good honorable mentions. I mean, all were good defenders, not great though. Bol, if only he had more stamina or could say in the game longer, per minute he was great though. Pressey, Silas, both good, but not great.

[G-train]

Bol fits your criteria as good as anyone. He blocked more shots per game than anyone except Mark Eaton.

"All of these players were recognized for their defense, and have left a mark defensively. Some because of their shot-blocking ability" - Glove20

[GP_20]

Bol fits your criteria as good as anyone. He blocked more shots per game than anyone except Mark Eaton.
Come on G-Train, "my criteria" is defense. There is no special criteria being applied here.

But like I said, stamina, how many minutes, when you only played 20 minutes a game, no matter how good you are, you aren't impacting the game defensively at an all-time level. Don't you agree with that?

[G-train]

While I think Marion is underrated defensively, he doesn't belong in the list. Although he is a more versatile defender than most of the list. He could guard 1-4 at a high level and has some big time scalps. Also he pretty much gave the Suns 2 steals and 2 blocks a night for a bit there.
I place him above Camby defensively. And Kobe Bryant.

[G-train]

Come on G-Train, "my criteria" is defense. There is no special criteria being applied here.

But like I said, stamina, how many minutes, when you only played 20 minutes a game, no matter how good you are, you aren't impacting the game defensively at an all-time level. Don't you agree with that?

I just think that Camby is in there based on his shot blocking, but is truly average at post defence, yet Bol was a better shotblocker.

[GP_20]

I just think that Camby is in there based on his shot blocking, but is truly average at post defence, yet Bol was a better shotblocker.
If Bol played as many minutes as Camby, without any hesitation he would be there.

[Maniak]

Kobe dont belong. Otherwise nice list, Glove.

[GP_20]

Kobe dont belong. Otherwise nice list, Glove.
I knew sooner or later someone would say that :oldlol:

[Bodhi]

I knew sooner or later someone would say that :oldlol:

I'm shocked that it lasted 5 pages. Good list though, repped.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kobe dont belong. Otherwise nice list, Glove.
Especially with the likes of Charles Oakley nowhere in sight. Awards bull**** voting aside, Oakley was the top PF defender of his era.

[magnax1]

Especially with the likes of Charles Oakley nowhere in sight. Awards bull**** voting aside, Oakley was the top PF defender of his era.
Rodman was just as good of a defender. Dirtier too. :D

[Abraham Lincoln]

No argument.

[GP_20]

Especially with the likes of Charles Oakley nowhere in sight. Awards bull**** voting aside, Oakley was the top PF defender of his era.
You give me a reason why he only made it to 2 All-D teams. Please. No injuries, played for a top team, had respect, etc. 4 Fowards are selected each year as well.

I've listed reasons why he wasn't as good. I know he was tough, physical, good on the post, but at the end of the day, he was like a poor man's Rodman.

[magnax1]

No argument.
Oakley was a better post defender by a long way, but Rodman was the best perimeter defender in the league, even though he was a power forward.

[Disaprine]

:applause:

[sirkeelma]

So now the only questions...


Agree or Disagree? Anyone that should be added or maybe removed?


Disagree... NO Shane Battier.

[Abraham Lincoln]

You give me a reason why he only made it to 2 All-D teams.
Good question.

For Rodman was a small forward in the early 1990s. I feel Oakley was consistent with the Knicks and overlooked. If I remember something about Van Gundy declaring him the Knicks best defender? Perhaps bad memory? Not quite certain.

[L.Kizzle]

You give me a reason why he only made it to 2 All-D teams. Please. No injuries, played for a top team, had respect, etc. 4 Fowards are selected each year as well.

I've listed reasons why he wasn't as good. I know he was tough, physical, good on the post, but at the end of the day, he was like a poor man's Rodman.
You had Larry Nance, Ho Grant, Derrick McKey, PJ Brown and others making the teams over him. Hell, AC Green made it one season. None of them were better defenders than Oak.

Larry Bird has the same amount of All-D teams as Charles Oakley, as does Alonzo Mourning.

[GP_20]

Good question.

For Rodman was a small forward in the early 1990s. I feel Oakley was consistent with the Knicks and overlooked. If I remember something about Van Gundy declaring him the Knicks best defender? Perhaps bad memory? Not quite certain.
Yeah, I mean he was a good question, nice and consistent and all, but he wasn't all-time great unfortunately.

[GP_20]

You had Larry Nance, Ho Grant, Derrick McKey, PJ Brown and others making the teams over him. Hell, AC Green made it one season. None of them were better defenders than Oak.

Larry Bird has the same amount of All-D teams as Charles Oakley, as does Alonzo Mourning.
Yeah, if those guys made it over him, that must mean he wasn't that good. Not saying he was a worse defender, but I am saying he wasn't an all-time great defender.

[Gifted Mind]

Jerry West is not a question mark, he belongs.

Gus Johnson, Sam Jones could be added. Some centers Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld could be considered.
I concur with the choice of Dave Cowens.

He was the cornerstone of the Celtic's defense in the 1970s that won an NBA championship. He wasn't a big shot-blocker, but his post defense was very good. One of the most physical defenders in the history of the game. He made only 3 All-Defensive teams, but he was competing against Kareem, Thurmond, and Bill in his prime. He once actually made All-Defensive 1st over Kareem. Also, he played great defense almost his whole career. If Patrick Ewing gets in with 3 All-Defensive teams, so should Cowens.



Well done overall

[GP_20]

Yeah I'll definitely consider adding Cowens. He seems to have good arguments for him, like I already said earlier.

[GP_20]

Yeah I added him. Even though he was never a dominant defender, but I realized a lot of these players weren't dominant, they were just great, and he was great. And he played great defense for most his career.

[nbastatus]

Remove Camby.

[Niquesports]

Jerry West is not a question mark, he belongs.

Gus Johnson, Sam Jones could be added. Some centers Dave Cowens, Willis Reed and Wes Unseld could be considered.


Speaking like a true old head people forget about Reed and Unseld undersized Centers that Ben Wallace patterned his game after

[GP_20]

Speaking like a true old head people forget about Reed and Unseld undersized Centers that Ben Wallace patterned his game after
Don't know about that. Ben Wallace was a primary shot-blocker that could change the defense because of his shot-blocking. I can't say Reed nor Unseld were great shot-blockers.

[IGOTGAME]

Especially with the likes of Charles Oakley nowhere in sight. Awards bull**** voting aside, Oakley was the top PF defender of his era.

If John Stockton is on the list then not having Kobe would be a joke...People just Stockton a pass when people lit him up for some reason...Isiah used to do whatever he wanted against him

[steve]

Don't know about that. Ben Wallace was a primary shot-blocker that could change the defense because of his shot-blocking. I can't say Reed nor Unseld were great shot-blockers.
Neither Reed or Unseld were shot blockers of any sort but both them were nearly possible to get position and would constantly force opposing defenders to shoot further away than they were ever comfortable doing and often times off balance. Plus, good luck getting an offensive board on either of them.


People just Stockton a pass when people lit him up for some reason...Isiah used to do whatever he wanted against him
It was funny looking at people claiming how much of an elite defender he was in the "Stockton v Paul" thread because they're the same exact defender. Stockton was never a lock down defender in the way that say a Frazier or Payton were at the same position and he always had trouble fighting around screens, but he was gritty, he didn't back down, and caused a lot of chaos by creating a number of turnovers on the ball. Both Stockton and Paul made/make up for their lack of size and strength by being crafty on the ball defenders which take opposing players out of their game by either forcing them to be overly conscious of their dribble (because if you slip up, the ball is theirs) or forcing them to play a style that they're not used to (like make a player whose not used to play the bigger player, playing with his back to the basket). While a team never had to worry about Stockton shutting down their lead guard in a traditional sense, they still had to game plan for him on offense because if they weren't careful, he'd easily take their team out of their offensive rhythm (and the same thing goes for Paul now).

[GP_20]

It was funny looking at people claiming how much of an elite defender he was in the "Stockton v Paul" thread because they're the same exact defender. Stockton was never a lock down defender in the way that say a Frazier or Payton were at the same position and he always had trouble fighting around screens, but he was gritty, he didn't back down, and caused a lot of chaos by creating a number of turnovers on the ball. Both Stockton and Paul made/make up for their lack of size and strength by being crafty on the ball defenders which take opposing players out of their game by either forcing them to be overly conscious of their dribble (because if you slip up, the ball is theirs) or forcing them to play a style that they're not used to (like make a player whose not used to play the bigger player, playing with his back to the basket). While a team never had to worry about Stockton shutting down their lead guard in a traditional sense, they still had to game plan for him on offense because if they weren't careful, he'd easily take their team out of their offensive rhythm (and the same thing goes for Paul now).

I totally agree. John Stockton and Chris Paul were on the same level defensively in their respective primes. It's funny how much Stockton is getting overrated these days.

And like I said earlier, the only reason Stockton made it here was because of his career accomplishment (leading NBA all-time in steals, a defensive category). Prime-wise, Stockton does not belong on the DHOF. But career-wise, just like the NBA does for extraordinary career accomplishments, Stockton is in.

[Luigi]

I totally agree. John Stockton and Chris Paul were on the same level defensively in their respective primes. It's funny how much Stockton is getting overrated these days.

And like I said earlier, the only reason Stockton made it here was because of his career accomplishment (leading NBA all-time in steals, a defensive category). Prime-wise, Stockton does not belong on the DHOF. But career-wise, just like the NBA does for extraordinary career accomplishments, Stockton is in.

Ability to irritate opposing players is a defensive tactic that John was skilled at, too.

[Niquesports]

I totally agree. John Stockton and Chris Paul were on the same level defensively in their respective primes. It's funny how much Stockton is getting overrated these days.

And like I said earlier, the only reason Stockton made it here was because of his career accomplishment (leading NBA all-time in steals, a defensive category). Prime-wise, Stockton does not belong on the DHOF. But career-wise, just like the NBA does for extraordinary career accomplishments, Stockton is in.


Its funny how Stockton gets credit for steals and Iverson gets knocked people say he was cheating on D just to get steals I have a guy that was a pain in the A#* as a defender Muggys Bouges you just could not put the ball on the floor against him

[GP_20]

Bump

Just added Dwight Howard. I think already he has made enough impact to be included in this All-Time defensive list.

[PHILA]

Yeah, I mean he was a good question, nice and consistent and all, but he wasn't all-time great unfortunately.
Here is the Van Gundy quote.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1018231/4/index.htm

On defense Oakley is an ounce of prevention. He has a kind of defensive ESP that allows him to beat potential scorers to "the launching pad," the term players and coaches use to describe the point at which the offensive player is clear to go up for his shot. "He protects the basket as well as anyone who ever played," says Van Gundy. "I'm not talking about shot blocking; I'm talking about keeping the shot from ever being taken. Others react on defense, but Charles anticipates. He knows when a teammate is about to get beaten, so that by the time it happens, he's there to help. If there were a stat on how many points a player saves his team, Charles would lead the league."

[ProfessorMurder]

Bump

Just added Dwight Howard. I think already he has made enough impact to be included in this All-Time defensive list.

What happened to you leaving and never coming back? GTFO.

[GP_20]

Here is the Van Gundy quote.

If I add 2 Time All-Defensive Team guy Oakley, might as well add O'Neal and a few others....The standard would drop.

[G.O.A.T]

Some guys I'd consider adding:

Guy Rodgers
Tom Gola
Bill Sharman
Bill Bridges
Rodney McCray
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Paul Silas
Paul Pressey
&
Wilt Chamberlain (Even when he didn't care he was a very good defensive center)

I'd say at least half those guys belong...but you got to draw the line somewhere.

[evilmonkey]

Eh? Where is Lebron James? The most versatile defender in NBA today, he can defend 4 positions and even some Centers equally efficient.... and is the best chasedown blocker we have ever seen, which makes him one of the best help defenders ever..... A 1st team all-nba defender and will be keep being in that category for a very long while, he was a DPOY runnerup behind Dwight 2 times now.

All im saying i would put him in DHOF, if not today, then very very soon.

[GP_20]

Some guys I'd consider adding:

Guy Rodgers
Tom Gola
Bill Sharman
Bill Bridges
Rodney McCray
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Paul Silas
Paul Pressey
&
Wilt Chamberlain (Even when he didn't care he was a very good defensive center)

I'd say at least half those guys belong...but you got to draw the line somewhere.

Well Wilt Chamberlain is already there.

But the rest? Yeah, if I add some of those, I'd have to add a lot of other players. I'd rather drop some than add at this point. But I can't really say any of the guys you named are better/more accomplished defenders than any of the ones currently in my DHOF.

[Snoop_Cat]

I can't say I know Havlicek well as I don't know much about that era to be honest, but I believe it was jlauber? who noted Havlicek as a poor to mediocre defender. Whoever it was, his argument included something along the lines while defending Russell as the GOAT was that though Cousy and Havlicek had a reputation for being poor defenders, Russell was able to make that Boston D a great one. Any validity to this claim regarding Havlicek?

[GP_20]

I can't say I know Havlicek well as I don't know much about that era to be honest, but I believe it was jlauber? who noted Havlicek as a poor to mediocre defender. Whoever it was, his argument included something along the lines while defending Russell as the GOAT was that though Cousy and Havlicek had a reputation for being poor defenders, Russell was able to make that Boston D a great one. Any validity to this claim regarding Havlicek?
I doubt he was talking about John Havlicek like that. He was probably talking about Heinsohn. Maybe you just got confused. Cousy and Heinsohn played together in their primes and were average defenders at best. Cousy and Havlicek never played with each other in their primes, so I'm sure that he said Heinsohn not Havlicek.

[Snoop_Cat]

I doubt he was talking about John Havlicek like that. He was probably talking about Heinsohn. Maybe you just got confused. Cousy and Heinsohn played together in their primes and were average defenders at best. Cousy and Havlicek never played with each other in their primes, so I'm sure that he said Heinsohn not Havlicek.

No, I'm 100% sure he stated Havlicek cause I was surprised to see him being called a poor defender. Maybe he was talking Heinsohn, who knows.

[GP_20]

No, I'm 100% sure he stated Havlicek cause I was surprised to see him being called a poor defender. Maybe he was talking Heinsohn, who knows.
Yeah, then he was talking about Heinsohn and accidentally said Havlicek. Either way, Havlicek is an All-Time great defender worthy of this list.

[EarlTheGoat]

Pretty good list.


But I still disagree with some things: first of all, like some have said before, Camby got very overrated as a defensive power-house. His DPOY clearly belongs to Duncan (btw did you include Timmy? I dont remember), so in my opinion he doesnt belong in the same discussion as guys like Russell, Walton, Wallace, Olajuwon...etc.

Second, I dont agree with the inclussion of Kareem Abdul Jabbar and John Stockton. Good defenders true, but we are talking about the "all time best defenders" here, you have to separate good from great. Kareem does not belong in the same defensive conversation as others specialists in his position in the all-time ranking. And same can be said for John Stockton.

Kobe Bryant is a great defender too, but it aint his main job, never has been. He is capable of shutting down players from short stretches of games, but never dedicated his career on defense like most of the players in this list did, I wouldnt include him neither.

And last, did you include Shawn Battier? I think I didnt saw him.

[PHILA]

Kareem does not belong in the same defensive conversation as others specialists in his position in the all-time ranking.
:no:

He is one of the select few top defensive men, right up there with Chamberlain for most of his years overall IMO.

[EarlTheGoat]

:no:

He is one of the select few top defensive men, right up there with Chamberlain for most of his years overall IMO.

I still dont see how he is at the same level than Wilt defensively...let along guys like Russell, Olajuwon, Ben Wallace, Mutombo...etc. But whatever.

[PHILA]

Referring to his prime years that is. Not in his late 30's/40's. Wilt at his very best IMO was better defensively, however looking at sustained excellence for a number of years KAJ is right there. This misconception may have something do to with his style and/or demeanor out there to the fans watching on television.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=155986


KAJ today would be the top offensive & defensive player in the league. He would be the most athletic player in the league at any position. By all accounts he was stronger than 'Superman' Dwight Howard. There is no way he'd be one of the GOAT's without exceptional defense. There are maybe 3-4 players in league history who are a perfect 10/10 at their peak as far as impact on any given game, and he is certainly one of them. He's averaged 4 blocks per game two different seasons in just about 40 minutes of game time.

[GP_20]

Pretty good list.


But I still disagree with some things: first of all, like some have said before, Camby got very overrated as a defensive power-house. His DPOY clearly belongs to Duncan (btw did you include Timmy? I dont remember), so in my opinion he doesnt belong in the same discussion as guys like Russell, Walton, Wallace, Olajuwon...etc.

Second, I dont agree with the inclussion of Kareem Abdul Jabbar and John Stockton. Good defenders true, but we are talking about the "all time best defenders" here, you have to separate good from great. Kareem does not belong in the same defensive conversation as others specialists in his position in the all-time ranking. And same can be said for John Stockton.

Kobe Bryant is a great defender too, but it aint his main job, never has been. He is capable of shutting down players from short stretches of games, but never dedicated his career on defense like most of the players in this list did, I wouldnt include him neither.

And last, did you include Shawn Battier? I think I didnt saw him.

Of course Duncan is there. But I've already said, Stockton was included on a accomplishment basis. He is the NBA All-Time Steals Leader. Steals is a defensive category. So from an accomplishment stand-point, he is there. Actual ability-wise, he is probably the worst defender on the list, and there are some better not on the list, but very few are as accomplished as him. Camby has won DPOY. DPOY is the equivalent of MVP for defense. All players who have won MVP are in the HOF. That's why Camby is also in the DHOF. Another more of an accomplishment guy.

You have to realize, for things like HOF, it's not necessarily the best players of all-time. Some are there because of their accomplishments. There are others who are better than some of these HOF players, but those HOF players are still there because of their accomplishments. Same goes here.

[triangleoffense]

It's funny how underrated Jerry West's defense has become...


Well anyways, yes he was one of the top defenders in the league during his time. He had lengthy arms, and was able to get a lot of steals that way. Also was a pretty good shot-blocker for a guard, and was able to effect jump-shots with those long arms. He had great hands as well.


All-Defensive teams awards started in 1969. West was already 30 by then, but he made All-Defensive teams for 5 years in a row. Including, 4 All-Defensive 1sts. If they kept them for all 14 years he played, he could've easily had at least 10 All-D selections.

Lastly, the NBA kept steals for just 1 year of West's career, that was his last at age 35. He still got 2.6spg. Many call him the best ball theif ever, just imagine his spg if they kept that stat all his career.

I've heard this as well. I've also heard that if steals and blocks were recorded stats during the 60s that West and Chamberlin would have the most quadtriple-doubles in NBA history.

[Papaya Petee]

You're missing one huge one, Shane Battier. Outside of that, great list.

[GP_20]

You're missing one huge one, Shane Battier. Outside of that, great list.
From a HOF standpoint, no he doesn't belong. From an accomplishment and ability standpoint, all the defenders there are better. He is a 2 Time All-Defensive 2nd. That's it. And even ability wise he is no prime Artest.

[magnax1]

You're missing one huge one, Shane Battier. Outside of that, great list.
Doug Christie deserves it over Battier, and neither really deserve it.

[Big#50]

The only name I question is Jerry West.

Why is he up there? I thought he was known for his scoring prowess, and wasn't a strong defender?

Please educate me.
Had quick hands. I have read that he had a lot of 10+ steals games.

[Big#50]

Eh? Where is Lebron James? The most versatile defender in NBA today, he can defend 4 positions and even some Centers equally efficient.... and is the best chasedown blocker we have ever seen, which makes him one of the best help defenders ever..... A 1st team all-nba defender and will be keep being in that category for a very long while, he was a DPOY runnerup behind Dwight 2 times now.

All im saying i would put him in DHOF, if not today, then very very soon.
GTFO if Lebron ever wins a DPOY it will be a bigger joke than Kobe making all those defensive teams. Lebron's D is let a player go by and try to get a block. He gets beat a lot. Solid defender but not great. Popularity is the reason he got voted second.

[ILLsmak]

You definitely need to add Shaq....

This is my pet peeve that people don't consider Shaq an all-time great defender. Take any nba player you consider an elite big and go to basketball-reference and put them head 2 head against Shaq. Of course, they aren't always going to be matched up with Shaq, but Shaq will be there...

Shaq is still an outstanding 1 on 1 post defender and he is one of the greatest help defenders, too. Shaq has to be way out of the paint for people to even consider trying to go for a dunk.

But that's just me... I definitely put Shaq as a top 5 defensive center. Blocks are great, but someone looking at you and changing what they are going to do is more impactful. And add to that Shaq still managed to get blocks even though people didn't challenge him since like his 2nd year. Everyone wanted to dunk on Dikembe or Zo or Hakeem. Because they knew that it might be embarrassing to have their shot blocked, but it was worth the effort if they got it done. But with Shaq if you were even remotely close to having a chance to dunk on him he would just lay you out...

-Smak

[Big#50]

You definitely need to add Shaq....

This is my pet peeve that people don't consider Shaq an all-time great defender. Take any nba player you consider an elite big and go to basketball-reference and put them head 2 head against Shaq. Of course, they aren't always going to be matched up with Shaq, but Shaq will be there...

Shaq is still an outstanding 1 on 1 post defender and he is one of the greatest help defenders, too. Shaq has to be way out of the paint for people to even consider trying to go for a dunk.

But that's just me... I definitely put Shaq as a top 5 defensive center. Blocks are great, but someone looking at you and changing what they are going to do is more impactful. And add to that Shaq still managed to get blocks even though people didn't challenge him since like his 2nd year. Everyone wanted to dunk on Dikembe or Zo or Hakeem. Because they knew that it might be embarrassing to have their shot blocked, but it was worth the effort if they got it done. But with Shaq if you were even remotely close to having a chance to dunk on him he would just lay you out...

-Smak
Russell
KAJ
Duncan
Robinson
Hakeem
Alonzo
Dikembe
Wilt
Eaton
Thurmond
Walton
Wallace
Howard
Ewing

All better than Shaq on D.

[jlauber]

I can't say I know Havlicek well as I don't know much about that era to be honest, but I believe it was jlauber? who noted Havlicek as a poor to mediocre defender. Whoever it was, his argument included something along the lines while defending Russell as the GOAT was that though Cousy and Havlicek had a reputation for being poor defenders, Russell was able to make that Boston D a great one. Any validity to this claim regarding Havlicek?

Just caught this. It definitely wasn't me. Havlicek was a great defender. And as more research has shown, KC Jones was a great defensive player, as well.

BTW, Jerry West was an OUTSTANDING defensive player.

[ThaRegul8r]

I definitely put Shaq as a top 5 defensive center. Blocks are great, but someone looking at you and changing what they are going to do is more impactful. And add to that Shaq still managed to get blocks even though people didn't challenge him since like his 2nd year. Everyone wanted to dunk on Dikembe or Zo or Hakeem. Because they knew that it might be embarrassing to have their shot blocked, but it was worth the effort if they got it done. But with Shaq if you were even remotely close to having a chance to dunk on him he would just lay you out...

What on earth does "willingness to lay an opponent out" have to do with defensive ability? You don't have to be a great defender to lay someone out.

[ILLsmak]

Russell
KAJ
Duncan
Robinson
Hakeem
Alonzo
Dikembe
Wilt
Eaton
Thurmond
Walton
Wallace
Howard
Ewing

All better than Shaq on D.

I would definitely disagree with at least half of that list. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Shaq's teams are always tops in PIP differential not only because he kills on the inside but because he discourages people from going inside. I don't think anyone on that list is as much of a defensive presence as Shaq. Now, some of them can get steals or blocks that Shaq couldn't... have better footwork, and can close out better. But in terms of intimidation and turning a superstar into a jump shooter, there is nobody better on that whole list. So, it evens out. Look up the stats, you'll be surprised...


What on earth does "willingness to lay an opponent out" have to do with defensive ability? You don't have to be a great defender to lay someone out.

It is more of the opposite. You remember Bruce Bowen and his 'dirty tricks' and how effective they were? Well, it's similar to the thought of his foot going under your foot as you shoot a jumper... but it's if you drive that Shaq is going to kill you. heh. And sometimes people would snap on Bowen... but nobody has the guts to snap on Shaq. The last person that did anything was Barkley.

I dunno why people refuse to see this and look at stats like blocks per game or highlights. What about highlights of nearly every big man Shaq has ever faced floating out to 15-17 feet and staying there?

-Smak

[G.O.A.T]

Just caught this. It definitely wasn't me. Havlicek was a great defender. And as more research has shown, KC Jones was a great defensive player, as well.

BTW, Jerry West was an OUTSTANDING defensive player.

I said Heinsohn and Cousy had high Defensive win share ratings despite being admittedly poor defenders, maybe that's what he was thinking of.

[Yung D-Will]

In before Round Mound claims you should have Barkley on the list because of some insane advanced stats.

[nbacardDOTnet]

In before Round Mound claims you should have Barkley on the list because of some insane advanced stats.

:oldlol:

[TheReturnofCed]

So now the only questions...


Agree or Disagree? Anyone that should be added or maybe removed?

Karl Malone. He frustrated the crap out of a lot of players. A bully of sorts.

[TheReturnofCed]

Some guys I'd consider adding:

Guy Rodgers
Tom Gola
Bill Sharman
Bill Bridges
Rodney McCray
Wes Unseld
Willis Reed
Paul Silas
Paul Pressey
&
Wilt Chamberlain (Even when he didn't care he was a very good defensive center)


Bolded the guys that need to be on there

[GP_20]

Though I should've done this a year or 2 ago, Dwight Howard has officially been added. Any more recent updates or past exclusions?


Always nice going through this thread and seeing some of the best defenders of all-time. 45 members now.

[Niquesports]

It's funny how underrated Jerry West's defense has become...


Well anyways, yes he was one of the top defenders in the league during his time. He had lengthy arms, and was able to get a lot of steals that way. Also was a pretty good shot-blocker for a guard, and was able to effect jump-shots with those long arms. He had great hands as well.


All-Defensive teams awards started in 1969. West was already 30 by then, but he made All-Defensive teams for 5 years in a row. Including, 4 All-Defensive 1sts. If they kept them for all 14 years he played, he could've easily had at least 10 All-D selections.

Lastly, the NBA kept steals for just 1 year of West's career, that was his last at age 35. He still got 2.6spg. Many call him the best ball theif ever, just imagine his spg if they kept that stat all his career.

I question West also over Al Attles who many belive was as good as KC JOnes.I would put Wes Unseld and Reed in this also.Great list I also like Paul Silias , Maurice Lucas, Bobby Gross, and Jason Kidd.

[R4E]

I am sure there are a number of more obscure players that deserve consideration - like Robert Reid from those fine Rockets teams. But the list is beyond decent in its coverage.

[Niquesports]

I totally agree. John Stockton and Chris Paul were on the same level defensively in their respective primes. It's funny how much Stockton is getting overrated these days.

And like I said earlier, the only reason Stockton made it here was because of his career accomplishment (leading NBA all-time in steals, a defensive category). Prime-wise, Stockton does not belong on the DHOF. But career-wise, just like the NBA does for extraordinary career accomplishments, Stockton is in.
IF Stockton makes it because of steals where is Magic and Iverson ?

[Showtime]

Kobe was an elite defender for only a handful of seasons, from about 2001-2004ish.

As far as peak, I'd put AK47, Christie, and Battier up there because they were premiere defensive players at one time or another. I mean, as long as Bowen is mentioned, so should those other guys. And was KG mentioned?

[GP_20]

IF Stockton makes it because of steals where is Magic and Iverson ?

Lol? Read the post you are quoting. Are Magic and Iverson the career NBA steals leaders? it's a defensive accomplishment that has gotten Stockton here, that's how it works for the HOF many times.

[alenleomessi]

No love for Shane Battier ?

[GP_20]

Kobe was an elite defender for only a handful of seasons, from about 2001-2004ish.

As far as peak, I'd put AK47, Christie, and Battier up there because they were premiere defensive players at one time or another. I mean, as long as Bowen is mentioned, so should those other guys. And was KG mentioned?

If we include these we'd need to add at least 10 more after that. Besides I think Bowen was clearly better when you factor in peak and how long they played good defense and defensive accomplishments.

And of course KG is on the list

[blablabla]

Maybe someone like Posey, Prince or Battier

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe was an elite defender for only a handful of seasons, from about 2001-2004ish.

Kobe's best defensive season was actually 2000 and I thought 2008 was one of his better defensive seasons as well.

[GP_20]

For those stating players that should be on there...

Make a case for the player you state. Remember just like the HOF, this is based upon

1. Peak Defense

2. Defensive Longevity (or how long you played good defense)

3. Defensive Accomplishments

[Pointguard]

That's a good thorough list.

[Showtime]

If we include these we'd need to add at least 10 more after that. Besides I think Bowen was clearly better when you factor in peak and how long they played good defense and defensive accomplishments.
I think the defensive prowess of Bowen is overrated. If he's up there, so should those other guys IMO.

[GP_20]

I think the defensive prowess of Bowen is overrated. If he's up there, so should those other guys IMO.
Lol you are arguing this the wrong way then. You are arguing Bowen doesn't belong on the list, not that those players deserve to be on it.

[GP_20]

Maybe someone like Posey, Prince or Battier
lol at Posey. If I add him, 100 more defenders coming in

[GP_20]

The question is, does LeBron James deserve to enter this list right now?

[sh0wtime]

Uh, where is Lebron?

[sh0wtime]

The question is, does LeBron James deserve to enter this list right now?

Why should it be questionable? Tell me? He has been the most versatile defender in the NBA for a long while and is the most versatile defender since only Pippen/Rodman, 1st team all-nba defender a couple of years now and was runner up for DPOY. If you dont question placing somebody like Mookie Blaylock or many on that list of yours, who were much worse defenders and much less accomplished defenders than Lebron, then whats the problem?

[GP_20]

Why should it be questionable? Tell me? He has been the most versatile defender in the NBA for a long while and is the most versatile defender since only Pippen/Rodman, 1st team all-nba defender a couple of years now and was runner up for DPOY. If you dont question placing somebody like Mookie Blaylock or many on that list of yours, who were much worse defenders and much less accomplished defenders than Lebron, then whats the problem?

Longevity?

Blaylock has been playing defense at a high level a lot longer than LeBron :oldlol:

The question is has LeBron's defense been so good that in such a short time he should be on this list. Howard was able to enter in a short time, but he was on another level.

[arifgokcen]

Longevity?

Blaylock has been playing defense at a high level a lot longer than LeBron :oldlol:

The question is has LeBron's defense been so good that in such a short time he should be on this list. Howard was able to enter in a short time, but he was on another level.
I think he deserves a spot.His defense versatility and ability to shut down 1-3 and ability to guard anyone on the floor deserves a recognition.So yes especially after this playoffs he got the recognition he deserved on that end of the floor too.

[thejumpa]

Longevity?

Blaylock has been playing defense at a high level a lot longer than LeBron :oldlol:

The question is has LeBron's defense been so good that in such a short time he should be on this list. Howard was able to enter in a short time, but he was on another level.

Bron doesn't deserve to be on any all time defensive list yet. Just last year he was being criticized for not playing good enough man defense and relying on gambling. Things are starting to change, yes, but let's see if he can keep it up for 3-5 more seasons.

[DMAVS41]

Bron doesn't deserve to be on any all time defensive list yet. Just last year he was being criticized for not playing good enough man defense and relying on gambling. Things are starting to change, yes, but let's see if he can keep it up for 3-5 more seasons.

Yet somehow over the last 3 or 4 years his man to man defense results in some of the best fg% against in the NBA. Not to mention his great defensive rebounding, transition defense, and team defense.

I'll keep saying it. Lebron is an all time great defender in terms of overall impact.

Not to mention he's on the floor so much more than a lot of the other defenders on the list. Lebron averages something around 43 minutes for his career in the playoffs.

All time great defender going on 4 years now.

[GP_20]

Think it's time to add a few players...

LeBron James and Tyson Chandler for sure deserve to be here

[Flash31]

ALL TIME GOAT DEFENDERS

Payton/Isiah/Stockton
JORDAN/Wade/Kobe
Pippen/Rodman/Bowen
Duncan/Garnett/Hakeem
Russell/Wilt/Mourning

[nightprowler10]

LeBron, sure. Tyson is overrated as a defender IMO. I mean he's been in the league for a while but out of all those years how many seasons was he a serious defensive threat?

[CavaliersFTW]

The only name I question is Jerry West.

Why is he up there? I thought he was known for his scoring prowess, and wasn't a strong defender?

Please educate me.
http://youtu.be/OEzwR1a8KuA?t=9m26s
Jerry West was a ferocious defender, and one of the best shot blocking guards in NBA history.

[GP_20]

List needs an update. Plenty of great defenders as of late.

[GP_20]

Last time I edited this list LeBron James and Tyson Chandler were inducted.


New candidates:

Marc Gasol
Joakim Noah

These 2 won DPOY the past 2 year and I think belong here for sure. Other potential candidates:


Tony Allen?
Chris Paul?
Serge Ibaka?
Anthony Davis?

I don't think Davis has played great defense for a long enough time, but he will get there eventually.

[Heavincent]

Last time I edited this list LeBron James and Tyson Chandler were inducted.


New candidates:

Marc Gasol
Joakim Noah

These 2 won DPOY the past 2 year and I think belong here for sure. Other potential candidates:


Tony Allen?
Chris Paul?
Serge Ibaka?
Anthony Davis?

I don't think Davis has played great defense for a long enough time, but he will get there eventually.

I would put Iguodala, Marion, and AK-47 ahead of Ibaka, Paul, and Allen.

[GP_20]

I would put Iguodala, Marion, and AK-47 ahead of Ibaka, Paul, and Allen.

Do you think either of those players you mentioned actually deserve to be on this list?

[SHAQisGOAT]

Pretty good list :applause:

Off the top, you're definitely "forgetting" Dan Roundfield though...
He made 5 all-defensive teams (3x 1st) in 11 seasons, would've most likely been elected DPOY in 1980 if the award was given out already (either him or Kareem). At his best he was just a great defensive player, very athletic - and did work on the other end and on the boards too - dude could guard any frontcourt position while being a defensive stopper, played great help D, was averaging 2 blocks and 1 steal per game in his best years, in little more than 30 min.

Oh, and now that I think about it, Gus Johnson should CLEARLY be there too.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Do you think either of those players you mentioned actually deserve to be on this list?

Dudes like Tony Allen, Kirilenko..... should definitely be there, yea.

[GP_20]

I don't know about AK-47 or Roundfield, but I'm definately inclined to induct Gus Johnson into this list


New Entrees:

Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
Gus Johnson



There are still some close calls, Roundfield and Tony Allen may top that list. This list isn't just for good defenders, its a HOF for defenders including the greatest ever.

[Dro]

Last time I edited this list LeBron James and Tyson Chandler were inducted.


New candidates:

Marc Gasol
Joakim Noah

These 2 won DPOY the past 2 year and I think belong here for sure. Other potential candidates:


Tony Allen?
Chris Paul?
Serge Ibaka?
Anthony Davis?

I don't think Davis has played great defense for a long enough time, but he will get there eventually.
Id put everybody except CP3(close) and Ibaka. I know Serge is a great shot blocker but his man on man defense seems lacking to me.

Is Artest on the list already or did I miss him?
How about Roy Hibbert? He probably needs a few more years to really qualify...

[SHAQisGOAT]

There are still some close calls, Roundfield and Tony Allen may top that list. This list isn't just for good defenders, its a HOF for defenders including the greatest ever.

I'll just put it this way...

You got Kevin McHake, you should have Dan Roundfield.

You got Don Buse, you should have Tony Allen.

And that's not taking away from anybody.

Oh, and imho AK47 should be up there too.

[GP_20]

Id put everybody except CP3(close) and Ibaka. I know Serge is a great shot blocker but his man on man defense seems lacking to me.

Is Artest on the list already or did I miss him?
How about Roy Hibbert? He probably needs a few more years to really qualify...

Yes Artest is on there. It's in chronological order you know

[GP_20]

I'll just put it this way...

You got Kevin McHake, you should have Dan Roundfield.

You got Don Buse, you should have Tony Allen.

And that's not taking away from anybody.

Oh, and imho AK47 should be up there too.

I kind of agree with you on Roundfield and Tony Allen. Both excellent and maybe even historic (which is really what this list is for) defenders. I don't think Ak-47 belongs there though.

[T_L_P]

I kind of agree with you on Roundfield and Tony Allen. Both excellent and maybe even historic (which is really what this list is for) defenders. I don't think Ak-47 belongs there though.

In his peak years (03-07), AK47 was easily the best non-big defender I've ever seen.

I think most people know what kind of defense he played, but people are often unaware of the transformative effect it had. Just look at the numbers:

From 03-07, he had a Defensive Box +/- of 4.6.

03: 4.0
04: 4.7
05: 5.3
06: 4.9
07: 4.4

Compare that to other great perimeter defenders of the era:

Bruce Bowen's best year was a 2.6
Ron Artest's best year was a 2.3
Doug Christie's best year was a 2.9
Kobe Bryant's best year was a 1.9
Shane Battier's best year was a 3.1
Jason Kidd's best year was a 2.8

Tim Duncan's DBPM from 03-07 was a 4.6, which is the same as AK47's. That's how huge he was on that end of the floor; big men have much better defensive metrics than wings.

It's the same case for Defensive RAPM:

04: 3.8
05: 4.9
06: 5.3
07: 3.8

Most perimeter players barely break a 0.5 in DRAPM (Bowen maxed out at a 2.9).

I always talk about big men being much more valuable than wings on defense (my top ten defensive players are all PFs/Cs). If there's one guy who could challenge that thought, it'd be Andrei Kirilenko. :confusedshrug:

[Milbuck]

TLP, you cannot base your whole argument on DRAPM or DBPM. It just doesn't tell the whole story..it's inflated for some players, inconsistent for others.

Example..Giannis currently at a 2.4 DBPM...which to an extent makes sense...he's visibly our most impactful defender..guards point guards one possession, then the next possession he's swatting centers at the rim. But do I think he's a better defender than prime Artest defensively? Not at all.

I think it's a good metric, but it is not the end all judgement on these players. AK was an awesome player..but he's not some transcendent defender that blows away defenders like Artest and Bowen just because of that stat.

[T_L_P]

TLP, you cannot base your whole argument on DRAPM or DBPM. It just doesn't tell the whole story..it's inflated for some players, inconsistent for others.

Example..Giannis currently at a 2.4 DBPM...which to an extent makes sense...he's visibly our most impactful defender..guards point guards one possession, then the next possession he's swatting centers at the rim. But do I think he's a better defender than prime Artest defensively? Not at all.

I think it's a good metric, but it is not the end all judgement on these players. AK was an awesome player..but he's not some transcendent defender that blows away defenders like Artest and Bowen just because of that stat.

Of course. The stats need to support what one is watching. In his best years, Kirilenko was a player who covered an exceptional amount of ground. He had sneaky-good athleticism, very long arms, and pitch-perfect positioning. He wasn't like Bowen, Tony Allen or a locked-in Kobe where they "shut down" their man, not giving them room to breathe, let alone do a move or get a good shot off. He was more like Battier, understanding players' tendencies/moving their man into their weakest areas on the court.

He was a great help defender also, which lead to the huge amount of blocks he gathered. Admittedly, he did get burned by some players more than a guy like Bowen did (Kobe had some monster games on him). But overall, his defensive impact for his team excelled anything Bowen, Artest, Christie (a vastly underrated defensive player) or Battier did for theirs (in my opinion). :confusedshrug:

[fsvr54]

I would put Iguodala, Marion, and AK-47 ahead of Ibaka, Paul, and Allen.

Tony Allen is a top 10 perimeter defender of all time

[bizil]

It's funny how underrated Jerry West's defense has become...


Well anyways, yes he was one of the top defenders in the league during his time. He had lengthy arms, and was able to get a lot of steals that way. Also was a pretty good shot-blocker for a guard, and was able to effect jump-shots with those long arms. He had great hands as well.


All-Defensive teams awards started in 1969. West was already 30 by then, but he made All-Defensive teams for 5 years in a row. Including, 4 All-Defensive 1sts. If they kept them for all 14 years he played, he could've easily had at least 10 All-D selections.

Lastly, the NBA kept steals for just 1 year of West's career, that was his last at age 35. He still got 2.6spg. Many call him the best ball theif ever, just imagine his spg if they kept that stat all his career.

Well said! And YES West deserves to be on the list. In terms of mastering scoring, passing, defense, and rebounding, West the THE BEST GUARD OF ALL TIME until Jordan came along. Big O back in the day wasn't a great defender. So that gave West the edge in the two way sense. Everything in those categories was great. Even today, u can't really name many guards who are great at all of those things.

[Ruler]

I think Kawhi Leonard has a serious case for making the list.
FMVP, shut down LeBron, and made 3 deep playoff runs in his first 3 seasons. Always guarding the opposing team's best perimeter offensive player.

Plus look at his advanced stats and impact on the court. Definitely the Spurs mvp.

[La Frescobaldi]

I think Kawhi Leonard has a serious case for making the list.
FMVP, shut down LeBron, and made 3 deep playoff runs in his first 3 seasons. Always guarding the opposing team's best perimeter offensive player.

Plus look at his advanced stats and impact on the court. Definitely the Spurs mvp.

he's so young that guy is going to be truly amazing because it's usually the older guys with lots of experience that get more of the recognition as high caliber defenders but you are exactly right.... he zoomed past most of the league just almost overnight.

OP....... I agree with the guys talking about Kirelenko, he ought to be on there..........

ABA & Sixer great Bobby Jones is missing from this awesome list.

[GP_20]

ABA & Sixer great Bobby Jones is missing from this awesome list.

He's on there you missed him. Come on how can anyone leave Bobby Jones off of a all-time great defenders list.

[GP_20]

TLP, you cannot base your whole argument on DRAPM or DBPM. It just doesn't tell the whole story..it's inflated for some players, inconsistent for others.

Example..Giannis currently at a 2.4 DBPM...which to an extent makes sense...he's visibly our most impactful defender..guards point guards one possession, then the next possession he's swatting centers at the rim. But do I think he's a better defender than prime Artest defensively? Not at all.

I think it's a good metric, but it is not the end all judgement on these players. AK was an awesome player..but he's not some transcendent defender that blows away defenders like Artest and Bowen just because of that stat.

This.

I mean, I agree Kirilenko has some great stats. But I watched his entire prime. As have others. He was a great team defender capable of racking up the steals and blocks. But he was not the best man to man defender, at the end of the day he was just just selected to the All-Defensive team 3 times as a forward with just 1 All-Defensive 1st. To me he has the resume of a good defender, someone who when you look at his career you will definitely say yeah he was a good defender. But an all-time great defender? I don't know about that.

[GP_20]

I think Kawhi Leonard has a serious case for making the list.
FMVP, shut down LeBron, and made 3 deep playoff runs in his first 3 seasons. Always guarding the opposing team's best perimeter offensive player.

Plus look at his advanced stats and impact on the court. Definitely the Spurs mvp.

Someday or sure....is he already there? Don't think so.

[GP_20]

So far here are the players I am thinking about adding based on all the feedback and arguments:


Marc Gasol (100%)
Joakim Noah (100%)
Gus Johnson (90%)

Dan Roundfield (70%)
Tony Allen (65%)

............................

AK-47
CP3
Ibaka
Leonard
Marion
Igoudala


The dotted line is the seperation of players who will go in vs. not go in for now. Everything is ordered. AK-47 is still the closest call to make here.

[L.Kizzle]

Gus Johnson should be here. He was better or as good as Dave DeBusschere.

[houston]

ben wallace >>> camby

[GP_20]

ben wallace >>> camby
I agree...and both are on the list....