The GOAT List: 100 Greatest Players in Basketball History

[G.O.A.T]

http://cdn.stereogum.com/img/not_the_mountain_goats_album_cover.jpg

The GOAT List:
The 100 Greatest Players in Professional Basketball History

http://www.celticsbeagle.net/billrussell.jpg

The GOAT LIST intro has been deleted to make room for the links.

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2010/03/06/entertainment/photos_stories/Cropped/magic_johnson--300x450.jpg

You know what this is now and if not, you'll figure it out.

http://users.auth.gr/~ekellis/images/michael-jordan-slam-dunk-88-poster.jpg

Enjoy!

http://www.bballcity.com/images/2006/2003-rookies-med.jpg


Top 100 Index

#100 Yao Ming - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3397701&postcount=5)
#100 Amare Stoudemire - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3397701&postcount=5)
#100 Carmelo Anthony - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3397701&postcount=5)
#100 Chris Paul - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3397701&postcount=5)
#100 Dwight Howard - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3397701&postcount=5)
#99 Kevin Johnson - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3398045&postcount=10)
*98 Marques Johnson - page 1 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3398045&postcount=10)
#97 Gail Goodrich - page 2 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3398163&postcount=18)
#96 Grant Hill - page 2 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3398163&postcount=18)
#95 Ray Allen - page 2 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3399369&postcount=26)
#94 Mitch Richmond - page 3 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3403157&postcount=50)
#93 Chris Mullin - page 3 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3403157&postcount=50)
#92 Tim Hardaway - page 3 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3403157&postcount=50)
#91 George Yardley - page 4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3403671&postcount=54)
http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/9/9e/JoeFulksBowman1948.jpg
#90 Joe Fulks - page 4 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3403671&postcount=54)
#89 Tommy Heinsohn - page 6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3404548&postcount=93)
#88 Chris Webber - page 6 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3404548&postcount=93)
#87 Mel Daniels - page 7 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3409854&postcount=110)
#86 Walt Bellamy - page 9 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3412773&postcount=127)
#85 Bob Lanier - page 9 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3412773&postcount=127)
#84 Neil Johnston - page 9 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3412773&postcount=127)
#83 Bobby Jones - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#82 Alonzo Mourning - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#81 Sidney Moncrief - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#80 Ben Wallace - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#79 Dikembe Mutombo - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#78 Dennis Rodman - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#77 Artis Gilmore - page 15 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3416023&postcount=217)
#76 David Thompson - page 16 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3420308&postcount=232)
#75 Tracy McGrady - page 16 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3420308&postcount=232)
#74 Reggie Miller - page 16 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3420308&postcount=232)
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#73 Earl Monroe - page 16 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3420308&postcount=232)
#72 Bernard King - page 17 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3424672&postcount=261)
#71 Adrian Dantley - page 17 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3424672&postcount=261)
#70 Alex English - page 17 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3424672&postcount=261)
#69 Nate Thurmond - page 18 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3428100&postcount=268)
#68 Robert Parish - page 18 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3428100&postcount=268)
#67 Jo Jo White -page 19 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3436828&postcount=285)
#66 Tony Parker -page 19 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3436828&postcount=285)
#65 Chauncy Billups -page 19 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3436828&postcount=285)
#64 Paul Pierce -page 19 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3436828&postcount=285)
#63 Dennis Johnson -page 19 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3436828&postcount=285)
#62 Hal Greer - page 20 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3451177&postcount=301)
#61 Bill Sharman -page 20 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3451177&postcount=301)
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#60 Connie Hawkins - page 20 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3455623&postcount=306)
#59 Spencer Haywood - page 20 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3455623&postcount=306)
#58 George McGinnis - page 20 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3455623&postcount=306)
#57 Steve Nash - page 24 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3476790&postcount=357)
#56 Dwyane Wade - page 24 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3476790&postcount=357)
#55 Dave Debusschere - page 24 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3481858&postcount=364)
#54 Dave Bing - page 24 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3481858&postcount=364)
#53 Jerry Lucas - page 25 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3487907&postcount=378)
#52 Paul Arizin - page 25 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3487907&postcount=378)
#51 Billy Cunningham - page 25 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3487907&postcount=378)
#50 LeBron James - page 26 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3495500&postcount=396)
#49 Joe Dumars - page 27 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3505482&postcount=406)
#48 Sam Jones - page 29 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3515005&postcount=440)
#47 Nate Archibald - page 30 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3521102&postcount=448)
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#46 Pete Maravich - page 31 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3527881&postcount=465)
#45 Dominique Wilkins - page 34 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3539918&postcount=513)
#44 Dolph Schayes - page 35 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3547080&postcount=520)
#43 Gary Payton - page 36 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3562836&postcount=527)
#42 Jason Kidd - page 36 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3562843&postcount=529)
#41 Patrick Ewing - page 37 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3565449&postcount=553)
#40 Clyde Drexler - page 39 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3573266#post3573266)
#39 George Gervin - page 40 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3583356&postcount=590)
#38 Dirk Nowitzki - page 40 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3586684&postcount=594)
#37 Bob McAdoo - page 41 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3589155&postcount=608)
#36 Allen Iverson - page 42 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3594691&postcount=616)
#35 Dave Cowens - page 43 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3600196&postcount=633)
#34 Wes Unseld - page 43 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3602527&postcount=635)
#33 Bill Walton - page 44 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3610570&postcount=646)
#32 Elvin Hayes - page 46 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3637721&postcount=680)
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#31 James Worthy - page 47 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3651300&postcount=703)
#30 Kevin McHale - page 52 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3683248&postcount=776)
#29 Walt Frazier - page 53 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3712225&postcount=790)
#28 Willis Reed - page 53 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3712225&postcount=790)
#27 David Robinson - page 54 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3799302&postcount=799)
#26 Scottie Pippen - page 54 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3809533&postcount=800)
The Top 25
#25 The Original Greatest of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3817365&postcount=826)
#24 The Greatest Playmaker of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3826156&postcount=828)
#23 The Greatest Enigma of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3828004&postcount=843)
#22 The Greatest Prototype of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3878297&postcount=874)
#21 The Greatest Iron Man of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4058431&postcount=904)
#20 The Greatest Little Man of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4073805&postcount=928)
#19 The Greatest Competitor of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4109224&postcount=943)
#18 The Greatest Innovator of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4112174&postcount=954)
#17 The Greatest Never to Win a Title of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4137090&postcount=981)
#16 The Greatest Energizer of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4137090&postcount=981)
#15 The Greatest Imagination of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4137090&postcount=981)
#14 The Greatest Old-School White Guy of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4160682&postcount=1007)
#13 The Greatest Offensive Rebounder of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4177960&postcount=1034)
#12 The Greatest Logo of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4207306&postcount=1082)
#11 The Greatest Triple-Threat of All-Time (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4213737&postcount=1099)
#10 The Greatest Imitator of All-Time
#9
#8
#7
#6
#5
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#3
#2
#1

[TheAnchorman]

Go ahead. No joke, I'd like to see your 100 players. If you don't have Ray Allen on there, though... :D

[phoenix18]

Go ahead. No joke, I'd like to see your 100 players.Ray Allen better be in the top fifty.
I agree.:cheers:

[G.O.A.T]

The 100th spot on the list is reserved for active players, who while not having full resumes yet, are on their way to cracking the list of the 100 greatest before their time is through. This year there are five such players tied for the 100th spot.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g247/beccasmhs/Other/dwight-howard.jpg
#100 Dwight Howard
Team(s): Orlando Magic
Years Played: 2004-
Career Numbers: 17.3 ppg 12.5 rpg 2.0 bpg

Howard is one of the game's fastest rising stars and is poised to be the premier center in the league for the foreseeable future. Already three all-star games two slam dunk titles, two rebounding titles, two first team All-NBA selections and a trip to the NBA finals on his resume he is sure to move higher and higher up the list every year.

http://www.dui.com/dui-library/celebrities/images/Carmelo-Anthony---Slam-Dunk-Over-Jerome-Williams-Photograph-C12188613.jpg
#100 Carmelo Anthony
Team(s): Denver Nuggets
Years Played: 2003-
Career Numbers: 24.6 ppg 6.1 rpg 3.1 apg

Part of that amazing 2003 Draft Class that already features two members inside the top 99, Carmelo is well on his way to making it three. A prolific scorer, his defense and leadership spiked this season and his team surged into the conference final. Expect him to improve on his three consecutive third team All-NBA selections next season with a 1st or 2nd team spot.

http://img.fannation.com/upload/si_blog_post_images/27861/chris-paul.jpg
#100 Chris Paul
Team(s): New Orleans Hornets
Years Played: 2005-
Career Numbers: 18.8 ppg 9.6 apg 4.8 rpg 2.4 spg

Already widely regarded as the games best point guard Paul has already netted two assist and three total steals crowns while putting the Hornets back into the playoffs and NBA relevancy. Coming off a first team All-NBA selection last season Paul has a very bright future ahead of him.

http://www.fantasybasketblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/amare_stoudemire.jpg
#100 Amare Stoudemire
Team(s): Phoenix Suns
Years Played: 2002-
Career Numbers: 21.1 ppg 8.9 rpg 1.5 bpg

Recovering from injuries and regaining as much of the explosiveness that's made him the NBA's most dangerous in the paint scorer of the last five years will be key for Amare and how high he climbs on this list. With a first and two second team All-NBA selections already to his name he's approaching the likes of Alonzo Mourning, Dave Cowens, Bill Walton, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld and Dikembe Mutumbo in terms of personal accolades already.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/magazine/specials/sportsman/2004/11/15/sportsman.chen/p1_yao2_si.jpg
#100 Yao Ming
Team(s): Houston Rockets
Years Played: 2002-
Career Numbers: 19.1 ppg 9.3 rpg 1.6 apg

The world's most popular players still and the most fascinating and frustrating in the NBA. It seems unlikely now that he'll eclipse many more players at his position on this list as he sits in the 100 spot for the third straight year. Injuries are piling up for Yao and postseason success is not. A seven time all-star and with two second and three third team All-NBA selections a fine career but it still feels underwhelming given his unique attributes and skills.

[G.O.A.T]

I think Yao is finished.

That's a major concern and something Houston has to consider when deciding what to do with T-Mac's expiring contract.

If Yao's career ends today is he a top 25 Center All-time?

[G.O.A.T]

No more tears hoops fans, but we might need some band-aids as we go Johnson and Johnson with the #99 and #98 spots. Point guard Kevin Johnson who made his mark mainly with the Phoenix Suns in the 1990's and wing Marques Johnson who made his with the Bucks in 1980's. Both had their primes cut short by injury but are undoubtedly remembered by those who saw them as two of the more talented and entertaining players of their respective eras.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/kevin_johnson.jpg
#99 Kevin Johnson
Team(s): Cleveland Cavaliers, Phoenix Suns
Years Played: 1987-2000
Career Numbers: 17.9 ppg 9.1 apg 3.0 rpg

Lightning quick guard with an arsenal of moves and the ability to score in bunches like few other guards of his era. A three-time all-star and five time all-NBA selection, Johnson averaged over 20 points per game five times and 10 assists four. His career 9.1 assist per game average ranks him 7th all-time. Injuries began to derail Johnson's career right around the time he teamed with Charles Barkley for the Suns most successful seasons. They pair made it as far as game 6 of the 1993 finals against the Bulls and lost to the eventual champion Rockets in seven each of the next two years but Johnson never chased down that elusive title.

http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0624/nba_g_johnson_200.jpg
#98 Marques Johnson
Team(s): Milwaukee Bucks, Los Angeles Clippers, Golden State Warriors
Years Played: 1977-1987, 1989-90
Career Numbers: 20.1 ppg 7.0 rpg 3.6 apg

The original point-forward. Johnson was the third pick of the 1977 draft and primary piece which the Bucks would use to build around after trading Kareem in essence for four role players a few years prior. When he was healthy the former Bruin did an admirable job making Bucks fan forget about the 7'3" two-time MVP gone, but eventually injuries derailed his and the Bucks fortunes. At 6'7", Marques averaged a double-double as a rookie, 26 points per game his second year and won five straight division titles after that including in his fourth season when he led the Bucks to a 60 win season with averages of 20 points 7 rebounds and 5 assists all tops on the team.

[KoolKat]

Looks interesting so far, GJ :cheers:

[GP_20]

Kevin Johnson is ALOT higher than #99. He is Top 50.

[G.O.A.T]

Kevin Johnson is ALOT higher than #99. He is Top 50.

No way, watch more of the list unfold and you'll see. I could see you arguing him 10-20 spots higher but top 50 is reserved for guys who were elite in their eras and\or won championships and played big on the biggest stage.

Still if you have some reasons why, I'd love to hear them. Which PG's would you compare him to career wise?

[KoolKat]

Kevin Johnson is ALOT higher than #99. He is Top 50.

He had limited seasons at a high play level before injuries and decline, still had three 20-10 seasons :cheers:

[G.O.A.T]

When he got hot, he was unstoppable getting to the rim

[G.O.A.T]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/2800561689_ac160405cd.jpg
#97 Gail Goodrich
Team(s): Los Angles Lakers, Phoenix Suns, New Orleans Jazz
Years Played: 1965-1979
Career Numbers: 18.6 ppg 3.2 rpg 4.7 apg

The first face of Los Angeles Basketball perhaps, Goodrich was the leading scorer on the first two UCLA championship teams in 1964 and ’65 and the Lakers first title since moving to Los Angeles in 1972. Goodrich’ 25.8 points per game average was greater then both those of legends Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain that season. In all Goodrich was a five-time all-star and an all-NBA 1st team selection in 1974. He averaged more then 20 points a game six times and was a standout at both guard spots over the years.

http://soulhonky.com/candanny/pistons8.jpg
#96 Grant Hill
Team(s): Detroit Pistons, Orlando Magic, Phoenix Suns
Years Played: 1994-2009
Career Numbers: 18.5 ppg 6.6 rpg 4.7 apg

Who would have thought as Christian Laettner was running arms raised triumphantly in the air after sinking the infamous turn around shot to beat Kentucky in the regional final that it would not be Laettner but the young man who threw the pass to him that would crack this list nearly 20 years later. But Grant Hill became the best of the Dukies from that era in the pro game. The 1995 co-rookie of the year; he was among the leagues elite in 1998 and a threat for a triple double every night when he played the playoffs on a broken ankle that eventually cost him his career and a chance at being remembered as an all-time great. Still he had a great career. Seven all-stars appearances, five all-NBA selections (1st team in ’97) and a reputation as one of the classiest and most professional guys in the league.

[KoolKat]

when he played the playoffs on a broken ankle that eventually cost him his career and a chance at being remembered as an all-time great.

Shouldn't had played that game 3. His team was destined to be beaten and he wasn't in great form :confusedshrug:

[Niquesports]

That's a major concern and something Houston has to consider when deciding what to do with T-Mac's expiring contract.

If Yao's career ends today is he a top 25 Center All-time?


IT would be hard to find 25 centers more ttalneted than Yao but better production let me try

Wilt
Jabbar
Russ
THurmond
Reed
Unseld
Cowens
Walton
Hakeem
DROB
Lambieer
Ewing
ALonzo
Mutombo
George Milkin
The Ed guy the celtics traded for Russ
Moses Malone
Robert parrish
this is off the top of my head and no order but cant think of anyone id rank over Yao at this point but D Howard
I put Ralph sampson and Yao in the same boat injuries and Wlaton over yao cause he did have 1 year that he won a title and helped to win another

[Niquesports]

No way, watch more of the list unfold and you'll see. I could see you arguing him 10-20 spots higher but top 50 is reserved for guys who were elite in their eras and\or won championships and played big on the biggest stage.

Still if you have some reasons why, I'd love to hear them. Which PG's would you compare him to career wise?


Please dont open up that can of worms it will take weeks with him and KJ

[G.O.A.T]

IT would be hard to find 25 centers more ttalneted than Yao but better production let me try

Wilt
Jabbar
Russ
THurmond
Reed
Unseld
Cowens
Walton
Hakeem
DROB
Lambieer
Ewing
ALonzo
Mutombo
George Milkin
The Ed guy the celtics traded for Russ
Moses Malone
Robert parrish
this is off the top of my head and no order but cant think of anyone id rank over Yao at this point but D Howard
I put Ralph sampson and Yao in the same boat injuries and Wlaton over yao cause he did have 1 year that he won a title and helped to win another

You missed one obvious one, Shaq,

There's guys like Ben Wallace, Bob Lanier, Neil Johnston, Walt Bellamy, Brad Daugherty, Jack Sikma.

You have to consider a lot of ABA guys too like Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel and Mel Daniels.

With no signature season or playoff success he may go down like Sampson as a "what might have been"

[Niquesports]

You missed one obvious one, Shaq,

There's guys like Ben Wallace, Bob Lanier, Neil Johnston, Walt Bellamy, Brad Daugherty, Jack Sikma.

You have to consider a lot of ABA guys too like Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel and Mel Daniels.

With no signature season or playoff success he may go down like Sampson as a "what might have been"

Thanks for the support Im kicking myself for not having Shaq
Sikma is close but he did win a title but I think he was a PF and Webster and Lonnie Shelton was the C
But yes Yao just hasnt done enough to be ranked over guys that have years of performance Id even add Alvin Adams Sabonis and Mark Eaton

[Jasper]

[I][
http://sports.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0624/nba_g_johnson_200.jpg
#98 Marques Johnson
Team(s): Milwaukee Bucks, Los Angeles Clippers, Golden State Warriors
Years Played: 1977-1987, 1989-90
Career Numbers: 20.1 ppg 7.0 rpg 3.6 apg

The original point-forward. Johnson was the third pick of the 1977 draft and primary piece which the Bucks would use to build around after trading Kareem in essence for four role players a few years prior. When he was healthy the former Bruin did an admirable job making Bucks fan forget about the 7'3" two-time MVP gone, but eventually injuries derailed his and the Bucks fortunes. At 6'7", Marques averaged a double-double as a rookie, 26 points per game his second year and won five straight division titles after that including in his fourth season when he led the Bucks to a 60 win season with averages of 20 points 7 rebounds and 5 assists all tops on the team.

Did you ever see him play ??
He was a SF and sure as hell not a "original point-forward"

Sidney Moncrief and others dished him the ball.

[G.O.A.T]

I don't want to be rude, but you were pretty rude so here goes.

You need to do your homework, the term point forward was actually created by Johnson and coach Don Nelson when Johnson started handling the ball after injuries decimated the Bucks back court. You're so wrong it's unbelievable, he actually had patented the phrase at one point I believe.

Moncrief wan't even a starter until 1981

Quote from Marques Johnson

"It was the early 80s and we had all our point guards hurt with the Bucks. Nellie came up with a way to have me initiate the offense in all our sets. My response was, 'so instead of being the point guard, I'll be the point forward.' Nellie liked the label and has used it ever since."

[G.O.A.T]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][I]Great Shooters are hard to come by, when I think of the great shooters in the three point era of NBA basketball three names come t mind; Reggie Miller, (1st all-time in three-pointers made) Dale Ellis, (the man whose record Miller broke, third all-time) and the man in-between them, Jesus Shuttlesworth, I mean

[phoenix18]

ray Is A 55-70

[G.O.A.T]

ray Is A 55-70


Make a case, I've spent years on this list, you spend seconds on that post.

I'll listen

[phoenix18]

Make a case, I've spent years on this list, you spend seconds on that post.

I'll listen
Common sense really shouldnt take years to display. Go on with the list and I will judge it as a whole. That would be more fair to you, and I will learn something along the way.

[G.O.A.T]

Common sense really shouldnt take years to display. Go on with the list and I will judge it as a whole. That would be more fair to you, and I will learn something along the way.

Thanks, I tried to be as objective as possible. Ray Allen has just two all-NBA selections to his name and his best is second team, there is only one SG on the rest of the list with two or fewer all-NBA selections. I think you might be over valuing Allen in the grand scheme of things.

What do you think are his intangibles that make him a better player then his stats and accolades suggest?

[phoenix18]

Thanks, I tried to be as objective as possible. Ray Allen has just two all-NBA selections to his name and his best is second team, there is only one SG on the rest of the list with two or fewer all-NBA selections. I think you might be over valuing Allen in the grand scheme of things.

What do you think are his intangibles that make him a better player then his stats and accolades suggest?
Clutchness. The man is great when it comes down to the wire.

[G.O.A.T]

No doubt about that, and he has the most beautiful jump shot of his era probably. I did say in my blurb anout him that as time goes on I think I'll appreciate him more. I thought he was washed up 1/2 way through last years (2008) playoffs and since then he's been a stud. Even his defense has been elevated. I like Ray Allen a lot even though Big Dog was my favorite on those Bucks teams of 97-02.

[L.Kizzle]

Kevin Johnson is ALOT higher than #99. He is Top 50.
You know how I feel about KJ. He's not 50, but he damn sure ain't as low as number 99.

[G.O.A.T]

I think he is #99, after a lot of time looking at it. I would like to hear your case as to why he should be higher.

[L.Kizzle]

I think he is after a lot of time looking at it. I would like to hear your case as to why he should be higher.
Could score, pass, defend. Many All-Star and All-NBA selections. 20/10 PG numbers for some some seasons. Playoff appearances.

Ray Allen is also higher. He's better than his two All-NBA appearances. Look at the era he played in, Kobe, Mac, AI, Nash, Kidd, Payton, VC, Wade, (all should be on this list by the way.)

[G.O.A.T]

All but one is

I think all the PG's I have ahead of him are deserving of being mentioned in the same breath or even more highly regarded then KJ. I am a Suns fan of the 1990-1996 era though so I could be being too bias against him while trying to be objective.

[L.Kizzle]

All but one is

I think all the PG's I have ahead of him are deserving of being mentioned in the same breath or even more highly regarded then KJ. I am a Suns fan of the 1990-1996 era though so I could be being too bias against him while trying to be objective.
Mark Price and Tim Hardaway, are they ahead of him ???

Also, Gilbert Arenas should be at the 100 spot with those other young guns ...

[G.O.A.T]

Mark Price and Tim Hardaway, are they ahead of him ???

Also, Gilbert Arenas should be at the 100 spot with those other young guns ...

Of the two you listed one is one spot ahead of him and one is one spot behind at the position on my list.

Arenas injury keeps him out again this year. he was on the list in 2007 at #100. He still is likely to crack the top 100 before all is said and done on most peoples lists I think.

[plowking]

Mark Price and Tim Hardaway, are they ahead of him ???

Also, Gilbert Arenas should be at the 100 spot with those other young guns ...

Tim Hardaway was better than Kevin Johnson.

[momo]

Looks like a good effort. Ignore the nit pickers, something like this is so tough to do.

You might consider finding a top 100 from 30 or 40 years ago to see if any old cats have fallen off the radar. In a recent "top SF's" thread, someone came back into my mind who I had not thought of in easily 20 years. Might be interesting to read too.

[TheAnchorman]

IMO Ray Allen should be at least in the low 80s at most high 50s, but I will wait and see. In his prime he could drive pretty well, could actually create his own shot (way, way better than Reggie Miller from what I've seen) instead of coming off of screens like he does now and was explosive in his youth. As for intangibles he is clutch, and has great leadership qualities. In Seattle his teammates looked up to him and copied his work ethic and it translated on the court. He is the man who had to sacrifice the most when coming to the Boston Celtics, and transformed his game to fit the team. That is a sign of a great teammate IMO and he should be brought up a dozen spots at the least.

He also won a championship.

Then again I am a biased homer fanboy. Sooo you can disregard this opinion, and I will also wait for your #94 who I think I will rip to pieces solely because of who you put on #95. :D

P.S. If you liked Big Dog, if he is ahead of Ray Allen in this list I will :cry:

[goldenryan]

i'm looking forward to the rest of this list. it should be interesting.

[Niquesports]

i'm looking forward to the rest of this list. it should be interesting.
I think the top 50 most would agree all make this top 100 list. ITs ho gets added that makes this interesting and how the 100 are ranked. I see Ray Allen I wonder if Jamal Willks is on the list how about Chet Walker, Spencer Haywood, Maurice Lucas and Bobby Dandrige. All should be on a top 100 list.

[L.Kizzle]

I think the top 50 most would agree all make this top 100 list. ITs ho gets added that makes this interesting and how the 100 are ranked. I see Ray Allen I wonder if Jamal Willks is on the list how about Chet Walker, Spencer Haywood, Maurice Lucas and Bobby Dandrige. All should be on a top 100 list.
They all should be on the list as top 100, but not over Ray Allen (except Spencer Haywood.)

[west]

Ray Allen should be way higher than that....65-80 IMO.

[Maniak]

Wow.

I cant wait to see this list...

Not in a good way.

[Niquesports]

They all should be on the list as top 100, but not over Ray Allen (except Spencer Haywood.)


I would say Jammal and Dandrige would be good arguments to be placed over Ray Ray

[Maniak]

why even say that. What are you some overtly pessimistic *******?
Actually Im optimistic. If I wasnt, I'd have you on ignore and give you no hope whatsoever, like any smart person would do.

Its a good thing Im a certified dumbass.

[L.Kizzle]

I would say Jammal and Dandrige would be good arguments to be placed over Ray Ray
No way, they weren't elite as long as Allen has been. Hell, I think Super Lue Hudson was better than both and has a better argument with Ray Allen.

[G.O.A.T]

http://blog.k1x.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/runtmc1.jpg

It was a little hokey, a little gimmicky, but it was a lot of fun. For two seasons, 1990 and 1991, three young perimeter stars joined forces by the bay under coach Don Nelson and powered the Warriors to moderate but exciting success averaging over 110 points per game as a team for those two seasons and winning their only playoff series of the decade in ‘91. Chris Mullin came to the Warriors from St. Johns with much acclaim as the 7th pick of the 1985 NBA draft and lived up to the hype. They added Mitch Richmond in the 1988 draft and he won the rookie of the year as a 22 point per game scorer, the next draft they plucked Tim Hardaway at #14 and the trio was complete. After being eliminated by the Lakers in the ’91 playoffs the Warriors sent Richmond to Sacramento for Billy Owens and the team did not win another playoff series until the ’07 upset of the Mavericks in round one., again scoring 110 a game with Nelson as coach.

http://www.freewebs.com/mitchrichmond/All%20Star/mitch_as2.jpg
#94 Mitch Richmond
Team(s): Golden State Warriors, Sacramento Kings, Washington Wizards, Los Angeles Lakers
Years Played: 1988-2002
Career Numbers: 21.0 ppg 3.9 rpg 3.5 apg

One the first of the new generation of gunslingers in the 1990’s. Richmond was a lethal shooter and scorer averaging between 22 and 26 points per game in each of his first nine seasons peaking in ’97 scoring 26 a game for the Kings. Combining the finesse of his long range shooting with the power of his penetration and post-up game Richmond was a feared offensive player. Richmond retired fourth on the all-time three pointers made list but has since been passed by several active players; however his 10-13 shooting display which earned him 1995 All-Star game MVP honors and his five all-NBA (three second team) selections remain as unprecedented achievements for such a pure scorer in his era.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3108/2715763244_2042810bd8.jpg
#93 Chris Mullin
Team(s): Golden State Warriors, Indiana Pacers
Years Played: 1985-2001
Career Numbers: 18.2 ppg 4.1 rpg 3.5 apg

A Wooden award winner in college and a member of the original Dream Team, Mullin was one of the games elite scorers in the late 80’s and early 90’s. His jump shot is used as the standard for an advanced computer shooting system today. Mullin averaged 18 points a game over 16 seasons and made five all-NBA teams including a first team selection in 1991 the middle year a five season prime in which Mullin averaged over 25 points per game and shot over 50% every season. Made the adjustment late in his career to role player for a Pacers team that reached the NBA finals.

http://ballstjournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/tim_hardaway_large.jpg
#92 Tim Hardaway
Team(s): Golden State Warriors, Miami Heat, Dallas Mavericks, Denver Nuggets, Indiana Pacers
Years Played: 1989-2003
Career Numbers: 17.7 ppg 3.3 rpg 8.2 apg

One of the most complete and successful point guards of his era; Hardaway patented the killer crossover in his younger days and became a prolific perimeter force and floor leader in the later stages of his career. He had three consecutive 20-10 seasons with the Warriors early in his career and then teamed with Alonzo Mourning and Jamal Mashburn in Miami and helped that franchise set several regular and post season high water marks including a trip to the conference finals in 1997 losing to the Bulls in five. Five all-star selections and five all-NBA selections (1st team in 1999) and a rank of 7th all-time in three-pointers made, 13th in assists and 10th in assists per game.

[Niquesports]

No way, they weren't elite as long as Allen has been. Hell, I think Super Lue Hudson was better than both and has a better argument with Ray Allen.


Dont get me wrong I love Ray Ray or should we call him Jesus but since when was he elite and how many ALL NBA First teams has he made?

[L.Kizzle]

Dont get me wrong I love Ray Ray or should we call him Jesus but since when was he elite and how many ALL NBA First teams has he made?
HE's been elite since 2000 ... and none, but look at his guard competition. Kobe, AI, McGrady, Kidd, Nash, (GP in his early years) and now Wade, CP3 in recent years.

[Niquesports]

HE's been elite since 2000 ... and none, but look at his guard competition. Kobe, AI, McGrady, Kidd, Nash, (GP in his early years) and now Wade, CP3 in recent years.


SO thats my point the elite players make first team. He was and still is a very good player but elite no.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"][I]Scoring the ball is the single most identifiable accomplishment in basketball. It

[L.Kizzle]

SO thats my point the elite players make first team. He was and still is a very good player but elite no.
He was elite, just because you don't make the first team doesn't mean you're elite? Allen is one of the great guards of this decade. He's above those other very good guards of the decade that include; Eddie Jones, Allan Houston, Michael Finley, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Joe Johnson, ect. Now which group does Ray belong too, the list above or Kobe, AI, Nash, Mac, VC, Kidd, D-Wade, ect.

[G.O.A.T]

He was elite, just because you don't make the first team doesn't mean you're elite? Allen is one of the great guards of this decade. He's above those other very good guards of the decade that include; Eddie Jones, Allan Houston, Michael Finley, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Joe Johnson, ect. Now which group does Ray belong too, the list above or Kobe, AI, Nash, Mac, Kidd, D-Wade, ect.

He's right inbetween those with guys like Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond.

[L.Kizzle]

He's right inbetween those with guys like Tim Hardaway and Mitch Richmond.
Mitch Richmond -vs- Ray Allen: Who U Got? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142060)

[Niquesports]

He was elite, just because you don't make the first team doesn't mean you're elite? Allen is one of the great guards of this decade. He's above those other very good guards of the decade that include; Eddie Jones, Allan Houston, Michael Finley, Baron Davis, Stephon Marbury, Joe Johnson, ect. Now which group does Ray belong too, the list above or Kobe, AI, Nash, Mac, VC, Kidd, D-Wade, ect.


Maybe we define Elite differently if he's not a First or at the least second team All NBA he isnt Elite I would put Ray with the the mid level players guys like Gus Williams Sidney Moncrife just a step below Elite

[Niquesports]

Mitch Richmond -vs- Ray Allen: Who U Got? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142060)


Close call but I gotta go with Mitch

[Niquesports]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"][I]Scoring the ball is the single most identifiable accomplishment in basketball. It

[L.Kizzle]

Maybe we define Elite differently if he's not a First or at the least second team All NBA he isnt Elite I would put Ray with the the mid level players guys like Gus Williams Sidney Moncrife just a step below Elite
Ray Allen has made a second team appearance, so that makes him elite. As for Moncrief, he's higher than Ray Ray. Moncrief has made the first team once and second team 4 times. Gus Williams is below both.

[L.Kizzle]

ITs so hard for me to put white players in a list of all time greats when blacks were not allowed to play how good would they have really been in just a few years when blacks were allowed into the NBa the WIlts Russ BIG O Sam Jones ect became stars how many could have also been stars in the early 50's
Yardley won that scoring title in 58, Russell's second season and Sam Jones' first. He was still making All-Star teams when Baylor, Wilt and Oscar came into the league a few seasons later.

Joe is different, there were no blacks besides a few, but he did dominate the league before Mikan came.

[Niquesports]

Yardley won that scoring title in 58, Russell's second season and Sam Jones' first. He was still making All-Star teams when Baylor, Wilt and Oscar came into the league a few seasons later.

Joe is different, there were no blacks besides a few, but he did dominate the league before Mikan came.


Im not one to think because he's white he wasnt good or maybe great but in that day so many blacks got left out Sam if Im i believe is the first NBA player from a black college so I give big props to yardley its just so many very good players werew shut out from showing what they could do

[L.Kizzle]

Im not one to think because he's white he wasnt good or maybe great but in that day so many blacks got left out Sam if Im i believe is the first NBA player from a black college so I give big props to yardley its just so many very good players werew shut out from showing what they could do
Folks 63 stood for some years until Baylor broke it with 73, than Wilt with 100.

[Niquesports]

Folks 63 stood for some years until Baylor broke it with 73, than Wilt with 100.


All IM saying is that blacks were kept out the league many belived they werent talented enough or had the Iq to play at that level but once the doors were open it was proven wrong so what if the doors were open in the early 50's

[L.Kizzle]

G.O.A.T., I don't think you were here when we did this.

The Top 100 Greatest NBA Players Of All Time According To ISH (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766)

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

HE's been elite since 2000 ... and none, but look at his guard competition. Kobe, AI, McGrady, Kidd, Nash, (GP in his early years) and now Wade, CP3 in recent years.

Elite? LMAO

He's never been a top 5 player a his position.

[L.Kizzle]

Elite? LMAO

He's never been a top 5 player a his position.
List the top 5 2guards every year since 1997?

[chitownsfinest]

Elite? LMAO

He's never been a top 5 player a his position.
:oldlol: He was a top 5 sg in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

List the top 5 2guards every year since 1997?

Am I your damn maid? I've already had this discussion before. Ray Allen was never a top 5 SG or Wing player in the league. He has one season where you can consider him a top 5 SG.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

:oldlol: He was a top 5 sg in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

No he wasn't, moron. You're assuming. Like I've said, I've had this discussion before. There was a lot of good 2Gs this decade, Ray was never top 5.

[chitownsfinest]

No he wasn't, moron. You're assuming. Like I've said, I've had this discussion before. There was a lot of good 2Gs this decade, Ray was never top 5.
He was an all star in all the seasons I mentioned. Also, the East was loaded with good guards in the early 2000s and Ray manged to make it on those all star teams. That shows how good he was to beat out other really good guards in his conference. He made 9 all star games this decade. He is definitely a top 5 sg from this decade behind KB, AI, Wade, and maybe VC.

[L.Kizzle]

Am I your damn maid? I've already had this discussion before. Ray Allen was never a top 5 SG or Wing player in the league. He has one season where you can consider him a top 5 SG.
Sure kid, he was top 5 in the following seasons:


2000 was close
AI
VC
KB
Eddie Jones
Allan Houston
Finley
Stackhouse
Reggie Miller
(No Ray Allen)

by 2001, was a perennial top 5
AI
Kobe
Mac
Stackhouse
Ray Allen

2002
Mac
Kobe
AI
Ray Allen
Finley

2003
Mac
Kobe
AI
Ray Allen
Finley

2004
Kobe
AI
Mac
Ray Allen
Rip

2005
Kobe
AI
VC
Ray Allen
Wade

2006
Kobe
Wade
VC
AI
Ray Allen

2007
Kobe
Wade
AI
T-Mac
VC
(no Ray Allen)

2008
Kobe
Wade
Mac
AI
Roy
no Ray Allen

2009
Wade
Kobe
Roy
JJ
Ray Allen

[chitownsfinest]

Kizzle, VC was more of a guard in the early part of this decade and T-Mac was more of a forward. I would switch the two around.

[IInvented]

Jesus Shuttlesworth is top 50.. :banghead:

[L.Kizzle]

Kizzle, VC was more of a guard in the early part of this decade and T-Mac was more of a forward. I would switch the two around.
It's actually the other way around. VC was the forward in those Raps teams (post T-Mac) and Mac was the guard on those ORL teams. Remember those East All-Star games, the starting backcourt was always Mac and AI and VC was the 3 man. Once VC went to NJ, he was back to the guard spot (which he started his career.)

Mac was a forward with TO, but when in ORL, was the sg as Hill and later Mike Miller were the sfs.

[IInvented]

b diddy get the **** outta here

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

He was an all star in all the seasons I mentioned. Also, the East was loaded with good guards in the early 2000s and Ray manged to make it on those all star teams. That shows how good he was to beat out other really good guards in his conference. He made 9 all star games this decade. He is definitely a top 5 sg from this decade behind KB, AI, Wade, and maybe VC.

He made allstar teams, so what? Other guards didn't make allstar teams? He made 6 allstar team outright. He has been an injury replacement 3 times.

2008-2009
Kobe
Wade
Roy
Johnson
Carter
Gordan


2007-2008
Kobe
Wade
Roy
Johnson
Carter

2006-2007
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Carter
Redd

2005-2006
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Allen
Redd

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Sure kid, he was top 5 in the following seasons:


2000 was close
AI
VC
KB
Eddie Jones
Allan Houston
Finley
Stackhouse
Reggie Miller
(No Ray Allen)

by 2001, was a perennial top 5
AI
Kobe
Mac
Stackhouse
Ray Allen

2002
Mac
Kobe
AI
Ray Allen
Finley

2003
Mac
Kobe
AI
Ray Allen
Finley

2004
Kobe
AI
Mac
Ray Allen
Rip

2005
Kobe
AI
VC
Ray Allen
Wade

2006
Kobe
Wade
VC
AI
Ray Allen

2007
Kobe
Wade
AI
T-Mac
VC
(no Ray Allen)

2008
Kobe
Wade
Mac
AI
Roy
no Ray Allen

2009
Wade
Kobe
Roy
JJ
Ray Allen

This is nothing but BS. That's nothing but your opinions. The only season he was a top 5 SG was in 05-06. Your lists are sh*t.

[chitownsfinest]

It's actually the other way around. VC was the forward in those Raps teams (post T-Mac) and Mac was the guard on those ORL teams. Remember those East All-Star games, the starting backcourt was always Mac and AI and VC was the 3 man. Once VC went to NJ, he was back to the guard spot (which he started his career.)

Mac was a forward with TO, but when in ORL, was the sg as Hill and later Mike Miller were the sfs.
I was talking about style's of play. VC was listed as a forward and T-Mac was listed as a guard but VC played more like a guard and T-Mac played more like a forward considering his 6-8 frame. It's cool if that is the criteria you used to rank them though.

[L.Kizzle]

This is nothing but BS. That's nothing but your opinions. The only season he was a top 5 SG was in 05-06. Your lists are sh*t.
Um, no sh!t, just as your list are your opinions. Or let me guess, your opinions are the truth, hm.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Um, no sh!t, just as your list are your opinions. Or let me guess, your opinions are the truth, hm.

My lists aren't bias. When I finish, I'm gonna make a thread.

[L.Kizzle]

My lists aren't bias. When I finish, I'm gonna make a thread.
How are my list bias?

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

How are my list bias?

You're choosing Allen over other players who had better seasons. I'll show you.

[chitownsfinest]

He made allstar teams, so what? Other guards didn't make allstar teams? He made 6 allstar team outright. He has been an injury replacement 3 times.

2008-2009
Kobe
Wade
Roy
Johnson
Carter
Gordan


2007-2008
Kobe
Wade
Roy
Johnson
Carter

2006-2007
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Carter
Redd

2005-2006
Kobe
Wade
Iverson
Allen
Redd
LOL Spudjay isn't it?
In 06-07, both Redd and Ray missed around the same games and averaged around the same ppg but Rayl averaged more apg and rpg. It is definitely close between the two, but Ray was slightly better.

In 07-08, you can say Ray wasn't top because of Kobe, Roy, JJ, AI, and T-Mac being better then him.

In 08-09, he was top 5 below Wade, Kobe, Roy, and JJ. T-Mac and AI had disastrous seasons. Ray had a really efficient yr that season shooting well from the field, three point line, and free throw line. He shot 48 percent that yr as well.

[BrilliantLegacy]

b diddy get the **** outta here
You mean Spudjjay.

[west]

You mean Spudjjay.
Are you nbastatus?you "posting style" just like him.....:confusedshrug:

[G.O.A.T]

G.O.A.T., I don't think you were here when we did this.

The Top 100 Greatest NBA Players Of All Time According To ISH (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766)

Thanks LK, how did you guys come up with that list, looks like some sort of vote huh?

[D-Rose]

Good thread :applause:

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks D-Rose

Let's pull the conversation back to where we are at on the list. If Ray Allen could take over a game like he took over this thread he'd have been much higher on the list.

[lilgodfather1]

Thanks D-Rose

Let's pull the conversation back to where we are at on the list. If Ray Allen could take over a game like he took over this thread he'd have been much higher on the list.
Oh no you didn't (insert picture of angry black woman here).

[L.Kizzle]

Thanks LK, how did you guys come up with that list, looks like some sort of vote huh?
Yeah, voting.

[G.O.A.T]

[FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"][I]The next pair on the list have a few things in common despite having played about 35 years apart. Both are versatile power forwards who could shoot it with the ability to play center, both were college All-Americans and both we

[goldenryan]

i wonder where dirk will be, high 50's would be my guess.

[L.Kizzle]

i wonder where dirk will be, high 50's would be my guess.
Yep, possibly higher. I wanna see wherre some of the more recent players will land, (if in the top 100 at all.) Kobe, TMac, AI, Kidd, GP, Zo, Deke, Kemp, Penny, Miller, ect.

[goldenryan]

Yep, possibly higher. I wanna see wherre some of the more recent players will land, (if in the top 100 at all.) Kobe, TMac, AI, Kidd, GP, Zo, Deke, Kemp, Penny, Miller, ect.
yeah penny should be coming up pretty soon.

[KoolKat]

Yep, possibly higher. I wanna see wherre some of the more recent players will land, (if in the top 100 at all.) Kobe, TMac, AI, Kidd, GP, Zo, Deke, Kemp, Penny, Miller, ect.

Penny and Kemp had few elite seasons, I wouldn't rank any of them higher than C-Webb or Ray Allen.

I knew bdiddy was spudjjay ever since his post on G-Unit.

[chitownsfinest]

Yep, possibly higher. I wanna see wherre some of the more recent players will land, (if in the top 100 at all.) Kobe, TMac, AI, Kidd, GP, Zo, Deke, Kemp, Penny, Miller, ect.
Penny is borderline top 100 for me. Kemp is somewhere in the early 90s, mid 80s range.

Kobe is in the top 10-12 range.

T-Mac is top 80

AI is top 30

Kidd is top 35

GP is around the 35-40 range due to his strong peak play and defense

Zo and Deke are both in the 50-60 range

Miller for me shouldn't be ranked ahead of Mitch Richmond and should be close to Mitch and Ray, but is probably going to be ranked in the 75-80 range.

[L.Kizzle]

Penny is borderline top 100 for me. Kemp is somewhere in the early 90s, mid 80s range.

Kobe is in the top 10-12 range.

T-Mac is top 80

AI is top 30

Kidd is top 35

GP is around the 35-40 range due to his strong peak play and defense

Zo and Deke are both in the 50-60 range

Miller for me shouldn't be ranked ahead of Mitch Richmond and should be close to Mitch and Ray, but is probably going to be ranked in the 75-80 range.
Zo and Deke will not be that high, they actually should be coming up real soon.

GP, Kidd and AI are all between 35-40.

Mac should be between 60 and 70.

Miller about 65-75.

[chitownsfinest]

Zo and Deke will not be that high, they actually should be coming up real soon.

GP, Kidd and AI are all between 35-40.

Mac should be between 60 and 70.

Miller about 65-75.
I think AI should be in the 30-35 range because of his scoring. He's 5th in the all time ppg leaders, is third among active leaders in total points,and had 7 seasons with at least 27 ppg. Factor in his size and his scoring numbers are even more amazing. He has also had 3 steals titles this decade, is among the all time leaders in steals, and has been top 5 in steals numerous times. His main problems have been lack of playoff success and bad efficiency, which pull him down.

T-Mac is in the 70-80 range for me. His strong peak pulls him up but his lack of playoff success and lack of longevity pull him down.

I was wrong about Zo and made a mistake with him. He is in the 80-85 range actually, you are right on that one. I do stand with Deke though. Deke is top 3 all time in blocks and second among active leaders in rebounds (though his career is pretty much done). He is also top 10 in offensive rebounding which is really impressive. He is also an 8 time all star and 4 time DPOY, one of the few players who can change a game with his D.

I think Reggie is highly overrated. Ray Allen, who was unfairly ranked in the 90s, had as good peak play then Reggie, was as good as a passer and rebounder, as good as a scorer, and equal in three point shooting with Reggie. He also has a ring over Reggie as well. You can say Ray had a stacked squad, but Reggie had some good squads in his prime and couldn't win with them. In fact, once Ray breaks Reggie's three point record, Ray will be the much better player. If Ray is going to be ranked low, then I think Reggie should be ranked around the same position. Just my opinion on it.

[goldenryan]

kirk or kg? who do you think will be higher?
and rasheed is he in or out?

[L.Kizzle]

kirk or kg? who do you think will be higher?
and rasheed is he in or out?
KG will be at least 10 spots higher than Dirk. Sheed = no. Once we see Chris Webber's name, that knocks Sheed out the door.

[goldenryan]

KG will be at least 10 spots higher than Dirk. Sheed = no. Once we see Chris Webber's name, that knocks Sheed out the door.
i actually think dirk has had a better career than kg. of course kg has a ring but david robinson has a 2 rings and wasn't better than moses who only has 1. i know billups won't make this list but 10 years from now billups,kidd, and nash will be regarded as the top pg of the 00's.

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks to everyone for all the great feed back and discussion, I am surprised out how acurate some of your projections are and how far off others are. It's also cool to see you guys raise some of the same questions I raised while making this list in the first place.

[phoenix18]

AI should be around 40-50.

[GP_20]

I'll come and make strong cases for KJ soon. He deserves Top 50.

GP Top 30.

[L.Kizzle]

I'll come and make strong cases for KJ soon. He deserves Top 50.

GP Top 30.
KJ isn't top 50.

[G.O.A.T]

I'll come and make strong cases for KJ soon. He deserves Top 50.

GP Top 30.


KJ isn't top 50.

I'll wait for you're case on KJ for the most part GP_20 except to say the main reasons I have him at 99 are injury shortened prime, no signature season, no title. Any of those three things turn out different he is a lot higher probably.


Why do you massive toss up at 100?

It's explained above the post sort of. I started it five years ago with the list, I figured instead of putting some guy on there who was going to be gone from the top 100 the next year anyway most likely on there when I can list the guys I think most likely to knock them off in the years to come. All those guys I listed tied for 100 probably already have top 100 resumes, they just lack the longevity to be placed in proper context at this point.

A few players (I bet you can guess who) who are still early in their careers relatively speaking have already cracked the top 99 and are rapidly moving up every year, I expect Howard and maybe Anthony or Paul to start doing the same soon.

Do you like the idea?

[GP_20]

KJ isn't top 50.
You might not think so. But at least we both agree he is not 99 lol.

[G.O.A.T]

[I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]From 1967 to 1976 the American Basketball Association was the only major rival in the modern history of professional basketball to the NBA and while the league never gained the respect of the NBA and its fans during it

[G.O.A.T]

You might not think so. But at least we both agree he is not 99 lol.

Whose career do you like better Kevin or Dennis Johnson's?

As for GP top 30, where does he rank on your all-time PG list?

[GP_20]

I'll wait for you're case on KJ for the most part GP_20 except to say the main reasons I have him at 99 are injury shortened prime, no signature season, no title. Any of those three things turn out different he is a lot higher probably.

You asked me earlier what PGs do I put KJ next to...


In KJ's peak, he was better than John Stockton peaking. Thus, the only advantage Stockton has over KJ is longevity. Now, everyone factors longevity, I rank Stockton higher than KJ all-time too, but just "longevity" and "durability" doesn't counter being "worse at peak play", and then add 70 ranks in front of it.

You get what I'm saying? I guess the most debatable point I made is Peak KJ > Peak Stockton. The other point, that longevity/durability doesn't counter being worse in their peak, AND add 50-70 ranks in front of that, is not debatable.



KJ in his peak was also better than Kidd, Nash, etc. All-Time, he is below Kidd, Stockton, Payton. However, he is above Nash. He is also above Tiny Archibald. But he is around that circle.

[GP_20]

Whose career do you like better Kevin or Dennis Johnson's?

As for GP top 30, where does he rank on your all-time PG list?
Payton = #6 all-time best PG
KJ = #9 all-time best PG


Here's a thread I recommend you reading or skimming.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33198


A lot of effort, and careful thinking went into it. There used to be a poster named GMAT, he could've effectively made an argument for KJ being a Top 30 player, and I mean a really good argument. Too bad he isn't around anymore, but I've carried some of the arguments for KJ.

[G.O.A.T]

You asked me earlier what PGs do I put KJ next to...

In KJ's peak, he was better than John Stockton peaking. Thus, the only advantage Stockton has over KJ is longevity. Now, everyone factors longevity, I rank Stockton higher than KJ all-time too, but just "longevity" and "durability" doesn't counter being "worse at peak play", and then add 70 ranks in front of it.

You get what I'm saying? I guess the most debatable point I made is Peak KJ > Peak Stockton. The other point, that longevity/durability doesn't counter being worse in their peak, AND add 50-70 ranks in front of that, is not debatable.

KJ in his peak was also better than Kidd, Nash, etc. All-Time, he is below Kidd, Stockton, Payton. However, he is above Nash. He is also above Tiny Archibald. But he is around that circle.

Payton = #6 all-time best PG
KJ = #9 all-time best PG

Here's a thread I recommend you reading or skimming.

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33198

A lot of effort, and careful thinking went into it. There used to be a poster named GMAT, he could've effectively made an argument for KJ being a Top 30 player, and I mean a really good argument. Too bad he isn't around anymore, but I've carried some of the arguments for KJ.


First off all I respect your opinion and don't think it's crazy at all, but i certainly don't agree with a lot of the assumptions you made.

I don't agree KJ was better at his peak then Stockton at his. Stockton was first team twice and second team six times and was a five team all-defensive selection, KJ never made first-team and was an average defender most of the time. Stockton also lead the league in assists every year and was consistently among the leaders in steals. And when both were teamed with one of the two best power forwards of their era it was KJ deferring to Barkley in the clutch and Stockton take the big shots in lieu of Malone despite KJ being easily the more accomplished scorer of the two.

So while I could hear your debate that KJ was a more well rounded, I think we value different things in a PG and overall in a player and are unlikely to agree on that.

I also certainly don't think he was better as his peak than Kidd, who was an MVP candidate and Nash who won two MVP's (although he should have one at most)

Most certainly of all he was not even close to as good as Tiny at his peak. Tiny led the NBA in scoring an assists in the same year, that's literally never been done before or since, Tiny was a more dominant version of KJ at his absolute best.

In fact I don't even think it's debatable that KJ was better in his prime then any of those players unless you base your opinion almost purely on the way they looked playing the game and perception of raw skill level.

I have GP at #8 and KJ at #17

I know there are four PG's on this list above KJ you will disagree with furiously and I won't have a good argument except for the fact that 51-100 are loosely ranked as a mentioned and that I value different things in a player then you do.

Thanks for the link and for following the thread, I will say all the support this forum has for Ray Allen and Kevin Johnson will certainly make me take a harder look at where they belong when I update the list next year.

[GP_20]

GOAT you don't know easily I can show KJ > any of those PGs in their primes. I've seen it done ,and done it so many times. I'm 100% you will have nothing to say.

Guess I'll do it later.



But I like the project in this thread.

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT you don't know easily I can show KJ > any of those PGs in their primes. I've seen it done ,and done it so many times. I'm 100% you will have nothing to say.

Guess I'll do it later.



But I like the project in this thread.

I'm not sure what you mean, I watched those players play, I read about them, listened to what others have had to say about them, seen where others have ranked them and formulated my opinions. I just demonstrated exactly why I don't believe KJ is as good or was as good as his peak then the other you listed. Unless those facts change, my opinion won't.

[L.Kizzle]

You might not think so. But at least we both agree he is not 99 lol.
He's in between 99 and 50, like right in between around that 75-80 mark. KJ a top 50 player in 2009 means we was a top 40 player in 1996 when the NBA at 50 was announced. Since then; Duncan, Kobe, AI, Kidd, Payton, Dirk, KG, Nash have surpassed him (that's just eight). Then you have others like McGrady, Pierce and youngsters like LeBron and Wade. Then you have a few old timers like Wilkins, McAdoo, ect. He's not top 50 but not 99 neither.

Yes, his peak was high, but so was David Thompson's and Walt Bellamy's??

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]From 1967 to 1976 the American Basketball Association was the only major rival in the modern history of professional basketball to the NBA and while the league never gained the respect of the NBA and its fans during it

[goldenryan]

where do you think rodman will rank? basketball isn't all about averaging 20.9 points a season. you can become a great player by doing the "small" things well.

[G.O.A.T]

It's hard to rank a guy who dominated the ABA but played ten games in the NBA. Can we look at him as Mikan from the 40s-50s? It's almost like the same thing right??

It's really hard to say, on the one hand it was a watered down league missing many of the top players like the 1950's, but Daniels did not have the physical edge Mikan had. He was 6'9" at best and played against, Artis Gilmore, Swen Natar, Zelmo Beaty, Spencer Haywood, Dan Issel and so on.

Mikan is probably much higher on my list then most will expect because of how significant he was to the development of basketball as a popular sport and being the first superstar in the league that now most markets superstars. So even though talent wise I firmly believe Kwame Brown would dominate Mikan, I'm not holding Mikan's era against him as much as Daniels league. Most of the ABA greats on this list made the NBA transition and had at least some success.

[Niquesports]

You asked me earlier what PGs do I put KJ next to...


In KJ's peak, he was better than John Stockton peaking. Thus, the only advantage Stockton has over KJ is longevity. Now, everyone factors longevity, I rank Stockton higher than KJ all-time too, but just "longevity" and "durability" doesn't counter being "worse at peak play", and then add 70 ranks in front of it.

You get what I'm saying? I guess the most debatable point I made is Peak KJ > Peak Stockton. The other point, that longevity/durability doesn't counter being worse in their peak, AND add 50-70 ranks in front of that, is not debatable.



KJ in his peak was also better than Kidd, Nash, etc. All-Time, he is below Kidd, Stockton, Payton. However, he is above Nash. He is also above Tiny Archibald. But he is around that circle.

Hold it a second above Tiny we had this debeat before KJ has never had the season TIny had and Tiny out does KJ in all personal accomplishments as well as Team sucess.

[L.Kizzle]

Hold it a second above Tiny we had this debeat before KJ has never had the season TIny had and Tiny out does KJ in all personal accomplishments as well as Team sucess.
KJ was slightly more succesful in the post season than Tiny, that's all KJ has on him.

[Niquesports]

KJ was slightly more succesful in the post season than Tiny, that's all KJ has on him.


TIny has a RING the only Ring KJ has are the ones he bought

[L.Kizzle]

TIny has a RING the only Ring KJ has are the ones he bought
Paul Pierce has a ring, but Dirk Nowitzki has more playoff success. While Nate does have a ring, KJ has had more playoff success. That's the only thing KJ has over Nate.

[Niquesports]

Paul Pierce has a ring, but Dirk Nowitzki has more playoff success. While Nate does have a ring, KJ has had more playoff success. That's the only thing KJ has over Nate.


If you want to look at it that way We can agree but sucess to me is a Ring falling short is based on well has Tiny had the support cast that Dirk has had its a very gray area because Dirk never played on a team like the Celtics but his Mavs teams were much better than TIny's ROyals ect teams.....Also it can be debated if KJ was really the best player on his Suns teams Tiny was the best player on his weaker teams.But we see eye to on on the bigger subject

[G.O.A.T]

A major key to determining where comparable players rank for me is how good their team was when they were the best player. If you can't carry a team to at least the conference semifinals being a top 50 player all-time is unlikely at best with few exceptions.

[G.O.A.T]

[I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]There is no doubt that since the beginning of basketball and until very recent times, there has been no position more important and more dominant in the history of the game then the center position. These giants of their time have almost always been the

[HylianNightmare]

this list is a great read so far

[GP_20]

Hold it a second above Tiny we had this debeat before KJ has never had the season TIny had and Tiny out does KJ in all personal accomplishments as well as Team sucess.
There is nothing Tiny has on KJ besides being more selfish. Nothing at all.


Peak KJ >>>

Peak Stockton
Peak Nash
Peak Tiny
Peak Kidd
Peak AI

list goes on

[Niquesports]

There is nothing Tiny has on KJ besides being more selfish. Nothing at all.


Peak KJ >>>

Peak Stockton
Peak Nash
Peak Tiny
Peak Kidd
Peak AI

list goes on
Here we go with this foolishness again well TIny has lead the league in scoring and assist has KJ ever done either ? not to mention in one season.
Better yet what has KJ done that TIny hasnt?

[Niquesports]

There is nothing Tiny has on KJ besides being more selfish. Nothing at all.


Peak KJ >>>

Peak Stockton
Peak Nash
Peak Tiny
Peak Kidd
Peak AI

list goes on


What year was it that KJ got into the HOF again ??????????

[phoenix18]

There is nothing Tiny has on KJ besides being more selfish. Nothing at all.


Peak KJ >>>

Peak Stockton
Peak Nash
Peak Tiny
Peak Kidd
Peak AI

list goes on
No way.

[GP_20]

No way.
Believe it or not, all of those topics have been debated extensively, and there were actually mutual conclusions made based on the debates. Sure few exceptions, but those topics actually ended. KJ's support was too strong.

[GP_20]

Here we go with this foolishness again well TIny has lead the league in scoring and assist has KJ ever done either ? not to mention in one season.
Better yet what has KJ done that TIny hasnt?
Wow Jordan hasn't done that either. No one else in history has. Does that make Tiny better than all of them?


KJ has led his players to the playoffs more than once in his prime. All the other greats have...Tiny?

I mean this is ridiculous, Tiny has made playoffs just once in his prime.


No other Even Top 100 player can be that bad. No one. I'm still saying Tiny is Top 100, but he is not elite.

What a waste of a prime if you only make playoffs once. No excuses, greats find a way to make playoffs in their primes. Tiny didn't. End of story. Greats make it with bad teammates, or anything, Tiny didn't, end of story .

He even had 2 different teams. He had some decent teammates. But if you can't make playoffs, all your stats are worthless. When he led league in Points/Assists, he missed playoffs. You call that a "good" year? lol


This is like someone telling me how good Durant is based on his stats, Tiny put up great stats on weak teams with extreme ball domination.

[Niquesports]

Wow Jordan hasn't done that either. No one else in history has. Does that make Tiny better than all of them?


KJ has led his players to the playoffs more than once in his prime. All the other greats have...Tiny?

I mean this is ridiculous, Tiny has made playoffs just once in his prime.


No other Even Top 100 player can be that bad. No one. I'm still saying Tiny is Top 100, but he is not elite.

What a waste of a prime if you only make playoffs once. No excuses, greats find a way to make playoffs in their primes. Tiny didn't. End of story. Greats make it with bad teammates, or anything, Tiny didn't, end of story .

He even had 2 different teams. He had some decent teammates. But if you can't make playoffs, all your stats are worthless. When he led league in Points/Assists, he missed playoffs. You call that a "good" year? lol


This is like someone telling me how good Durant is based on his stats, Tiny put up great stats on weak teams with extreme ball domination.


TIny HOF'er
KJ ???????
TIny selected Top 50 of ALL TIME
KJ ???????????
TIny a major part on a championship team
KJ??????????????
What really is your point but I love how you can believe what your heart believes in no matter how dumb it might seem to others.

[GP_20]

TIny HOF'er
KJ ???????
TIny selected Top 50 of ALL TIME
KJ ???????????
TIny a major part on a championship team
KJ??????????????
What really is your point but I love how you can believe what your heart believes in no matter how dumb it might seem to others.
Major part? He was a starter yes. But all he did was choke in the Finals. I've watched them recently. He was not a factor, he missed clutch shots, and shot bad if I remember.

KJ is the most underrated player of all-time. So, it makes sense he isn't in the HOF or selected as Top 50. That's the definition of underrated. So all these HOF, Top 50, etc. arguments are worthless. Let's see if you have anything past that.





Here let's see this.

KJ in his prime, put up better stats, made playoffs every year, and played against tougher competition. While Tiny in his prime, put less numbers, missed playoffs every year but once, and played against weaker competition.

When the above holds, it's undebatable who was better in their primes. And also, it's not close.

Better Numbers + Playoffs + Tougher Competition = Better Player.
Worse Numbers + No Playoffs + Easier Competition = Worse Player.

I mean, that is as strong of an argumetn, and as common sense as its going to get.

You can't counter that. Unless you disagree with any of the individual parts, the conclusion is not refuatable when those 3 cases exist.

But we've already proven all 3 of those points seperately, and even agreed on them. So the conclusion is true, KJ is better.

[G.O.A.T]

Can we please stop this KJ discussion, it's gone on long enough, GP_20 isn't listening to logic and has his mind made up.

Regardless of who the better player is, no new points are being made, just more ridiculous comparisons and arguments where only the facts that support your side are meaningful. It's really boring to read in my opinion.

[Niquesports]

Major part? He was a starter yes. But all he did was choke in the Finals. I've watched them recently. He was not a factor, he missed clutch shots, and shot bad if I remember.

KJ is the most underrated player of all-time. So, it makes sense he isn't in the HOF or selected as Top 50. That's the definition of underrated. So all these HOF, Top 50, etc. arguments are worthless. Let's see if you have anything past that.





Here let's see this.

KJ in his prime, put up better stats, made playoffs every year, and played against tougher competition. While Tiny in his prime, put less numbers, missed playoffs every year but once, and played against weaker competition.

When the above holds, it's undebatable who was better in their primes. And also, it's not close.

Better Numbers + Playoffs + Tougher Competition = Better Player.
Worse Numbers + No Playoffs + Easier Competition = Worse Player.

I mean, that is as strong of an argumetn, and as common sense as its going to get.

You can't counter that. Unless you disagree with any of the individual parts, the conclusion is not refuatable when those 3 cases exist.

But we've already proven all 3 of those points seperately, and even agreed on them. So the conclusion is true, KJ is better.



Tiny
All NBA 1team 3 times
All NBA second team 2 times
Six time NBA All STar
All Star MVP 81

KJ
Never First team All NBA
3All NBA second team 4 times
Third team 1
3 time All Star


YOur KJ biggest fan he was a second tier player Tiny was elite


Greats make at least 1 ALL NBA team in 11 years KJ couldn't name me another All TIime Great that has never made an ALL NBA FIrst Team at least once

[Niquesports]

Can we please stop this KJ discussion, it's gone on long enough, GP_20 isn't listening to logic and has his mind made up.

Regardless of who the better player is, no new points are being made, just more ridiculous comparisons and arguments where only the facts that support your side are meaningful. It's really boring to read in my opinion.

Agreed IM done

[GP_20]

Can we please stop this KJ discussion, it's gone on long enough, GP_20 isn't listening to logic and has his mind made up.

Regardless of who the better player is, no new points are being made, just more ridiculous comparisons and arguments where only the facts that support your side are meaningful. It's really boring to read in my opinion.
Agree or disagree?

Better Numbers + Playoffs + Tougher Competition = Better Player.
Worse Numbers + No Playoffs + Easier Competition = Worse Player.


You're telling me that doesn't always exist? What logic has there been for Tiny? "He is in the HOF". That is the only argument presented for him. Is that what determines who is the better player in their primes?


You're telling me, a guy who makes playoffs just once in his whole prime, is better than another guy who makes playoffs every year because of...what?
Durant or Melo? Who is better? Durant might've had better numbers (which Tiny didn't), but his team was horrible, while Melo did his stuff on a good team. You tell me who was better.



Better Numbers + Playoffs + Tougher Competition = Better Player.
Worse Numbers + No Playoffs + Easier Competition = Worse Player.

^^^ That is not counterable.

[GP_20]

Tiny
All NBA 1team 3 times
All NBA second team 2 times
Six time NBA All STar
All Star MVP 81

KJ
Never First team All NBA
3All NBA second team 4 times
Third team 1
3 time All Star


YOur KJ biggest fan he was a second tier player Tiny was elite


Greats make at least 1 ALL NBA team in 11 years KJ couldn't name me another All TIime Great that has never made an ALL NBA FIrst Team at least once

Awards are subjective based on competition. KJ at his peak was playing with a peak Jordan and Magic. Neither Tiny, nor any other guard in NBA history would have made All-NBA 1st. John Stockton's peak was during the late 80s to early 90s too. Same time as KJ. He didn't make All-NBA 1st either during those years.

That was too easy to counter.
:sleeping


This is all that is left to say? Seriously, that was the best you got?

Please don't post again until you have at least a half thought out argument.

[GP_20]

Can we please stop this KJ discussion, it's gone on long enough, GP_20 isn't listening to logic and has his mind made up.

.
And what are you talking about? KJ discussion? It started at the end of last page. I didn't make 1 argument for KJ in this whole thread till the end of last page. It's been going long enough lol.

[G.O.A.T]

Better Numbers + Playoffs + Tougher Competition = Better Player.
Worse Numbers + No Playoffs + Easier Competition = Worse Player.


^^^ That is not counterable.

This is your problem GP_20. You act like your going to be able to prove your opinion. It's an opinion and when you disregard the other side of the debate so blatantly it devalues your point.

First of all "better numbers" and "tougher competition" are opinions, I agree with one basically but not completely and disagree with the other.

Also no playoffs is a wild misrepresentation of Archibald he was the starting point guard on a team that went to four straight conference finals and won an NBA title.

Making a statement like the one you did only hurts your point in my opinion because it shows you do not understand the oppositions argument.

Archibald was one of the most exciting guards in the NBA during his earlier years. When he led the league in scoring and assists he set an NBA record for assists in a season and points in a season for a guard. He was Isiah or AI in their earlier years, an incredible talent on a bad team. His career took a different path though, he became a secondary option on the blossoming Celtics dynasty of the 80's. You'd know this if you'd seen him play and not just looked at his numbers. That said, it's not as if you can't have a valid opinion on a player you haven't seen you just need to listen to other people who can tell you what you missed.

Also "counterable" is not a word

[GP_20]

Simple question GOAT,

which years would you consider Tiny's "Prime". I'm not necessarily talking peak, but just prime. Tiny's peak is probably 1972 and 1973 (very short peak). What would you say his prime was?

[G.O.A.T]

Simple question GOAT,

which years would you consider Tiny's "Prime". I'm not necessarily talking peak, but just prime. Tiny's peak is probably 1972 and 1973 (very short peak). What would you say his prime was?

His whole career is his prime except for his last two years maybe, as I said he was a different type of player with the Celtics but he was still playing major minutes and was among the league leaders in assists and scoring at his position while shooting a high percentage. He was feared with the ball in his hands to score or create.

[GP_20]

His whole career is his prime except for his last two years maybe, as I said he was a different type of player with the Celtics but he was still playing major minutes and was among the league leaders in assists and scoring at his position while shooting a high percentage. He was feared with the ball in his hands to score or create.


So you consider 13/8 Tiny's "prime"?

A Top so called 50 All-Time, has a 13/8 in his prime? Yes he was better in other years, but you're telling me a Prime Tiny Archibald was a 13/8 type player as well?

Bottomline, you think Tiny Archibald in his 13/8 Boston years, was comparable to the 28/9, 26/8, 31/11 Archibald?

Or do you think he might have actually decayed a bit from his 28/9 seasons, and was a veteran who played his role differently and fit into the Celtics at the end of his career? Thus was not in his prime, but accomplished good things while not being in his prime anymore. By the way, think about what the word prime means, it's not "almost your career" in most cases, but it's the best seasons of your career.


So you still think 13/8 was a Prime Tiny Archibald we saw in Boston? I'll ask for the last time before I proceed. Don't change your answer later. Just going to make this as logical as possible.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Can we please stop this KJ discussion, it's gone on long enough, GP_20 isn't listening to logic and has his mind made up.

Regardless of who the better player is, no new points are being made, just more ridiculous comparisons and arguments where only the facts that support your side are meaningful. It's really boring to read in my opinion.

He's known for this. It's like trying to argue with a brick wall. Once he has his mind made up, it's over. My advice, ignore the dumb ass.

[GP_20]

He's known for this. It's like trying to argue with a brick wall. Once he has his mind made up, it's over. My advice, ignore the dumb ass.
Who the f*uck are you?


My last thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142903

Made a list, received excellent reviews, not 1 person called it stupid (how often does all this happen on ISH?), and was repped here and there.

But main point, I made a list, some people through out some good arguments for some players, and I changed the list, in other words, CHANGED my mind. Wait doesn't that contradict your original post? IN other words, make you wrong? I win again.



I'm actually one of the most open-minded posters here.



Just want to see a legit argument for Tiny, "He is in the HOF" isn't going to cut it.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Who the f*uck are you?


My last thread:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142903

Made a list, received excellent reviews, not 1 person called it stupid (how often does all this happen on ISH?), and was repped here and there.

But main point, I made a list, some people through out some good arguments for some players, and I changed the list, in other words, CHANGED my mind. Wait doesn't that contradict your original post? IN other words, make you wrong? I win again.



I'm actually one of the most open-minded posters here.



Just want to see a legit argument for Tiny, "He is in the HOF" isn't going to cut it.

Who the fck are you?

[GP_20]

Just found the last time I debated KJ vs. Tiny


Here were comments from the people I was not arguing with:



i skimmed over all of this Tiny vs. KJ debate, and Glove has made lots of good points about KJ, and his argument is stronger. I would've ranked Tiny higher earlier, but after finding out he has made playoffs just once in his prime, I have changed my mind. I mean that is inexcusable.

glove got the better of this debate, you just got owned just right now with that article Glove posted. Glove does it again with another great rankings thread, good stuff :applause:



Glove is spot on. He has made some great points in this debate and i think its clear he has won. By the Niquesports, please just stop, all ur arguments are weak and have failed. You remind me of Sir Charles at this point. Saying the same things over and over again.



Niquesports (Guy I was arguing with) is getting shred into pieces. LMAO



Glove is owning these fools Nique and Showtime. Damn good points there dude.


Not one person was said anything pro-Tiny in the debate. (People not involved in the main debate).








I haven't even started debating KJ vs. Tiny again. But it seems quite clear to me, I at least had some great points to be made here. It also seems to clear to me, I did a very effective job of showing KJ was better. And it seems clear to me, as one person put it, the Tiny side was getting "shred" into pieces.

[Lebron23]

Did Nate Archibald won an NBA Finals MVP, and Scoring title?

[Niquesports]

So you consider 13/8 Tiny's "prime"?

A Top so called 50 All-Time, has a 13/8 in his prime? Yes he was better in other years, but you're telling me a Prime Tiny Archibald was a 13/8 type player as well?

Bottomline, you think Tiny Archibald in his 13/8 Boston years, was comparable to the 28/9, 26/8, 31/11 Archibald?

Or do you think he might have actually decayed a bit from his 28/9 seasons, and was a veteran who played his role differently and fit into the Celtics at the end of his career? Thus was not in his prime, but accomplished good things while not being in his prime anymore. By the way, think about what the word prime means, it's not "almost your career" in most cases, but it's the best seasons of your career.


So you still think 13/8 was a Prime Tiny Archibald we saw in Boston? I'll ask for the last time before I proceed. Don't change your answer later. Just going to make this as logical as possible.


Its like you find a stat and then you think you have proven a point ok in Boston he made 2nd team All NBA made an All Star game won MVP of that game and was a major part in Boston winning a title >13/8 >Greater than any KJ has ever done. KJ was a very good PG just never e"ELITE" which is why his name never comes up not because he's underrated. Elite players make at least 1 ALL NBA first team.

[GP_20]

Did Nate Archibald won an NBA Finals MVP, and Scoring title?
He never won an NBA Championship. He won a ring, near the end of his career averaging 14/8.

He did however win a scoring title. However, this was on a non-playoff team where he dominated the ball. His team finished with 36 wins, while he averaged 34ppg. To me, scoring all of those points is useless when you can't even get your team in the playoffs. He actually ended up making playoffs only once in his prime. Even Bosh has at least matched that. T-Mac, who is known for losing, has done quite better. Making playoffs once in your prime is just bad period. Iverson has been able to do a lot better as well.

[Niquesports]

Just found the last time I debated KJ vs. Tiny


Here were comments from the people I was not arguing with:













Not one person was said anything pro-Tiny in the debate. (People not involved in the main debate).








I haven't even started debating KJ vs. Tiny again. But it seems quite clear to me, I at least had some great points to be made here. It also seems to clear to me, I did a very effective job of showing KJ was better. And it seems clear to me, as one person put it, the Tiny side was getting "shred" into pieces.



You are very funny I bet if you made your mind up that the sky was pink even if you looked up and saw a bright clear blue sky you would still argue that the sky is yellow.

Why do people the game to achive personal and team sucess laying out what Tiny has done and what Kj has done Tiny easly wins sad part is you go on and on and its not even close
Its not like a Bird avs magic or Jordan vs Kobe or Jabbar vs Shaq thats the sad part. But you make up all these Tiny this TIny could lead a team to the playoffs well KJ could lead a team to a championship
So you can go on and on and believe in fairy tales but guess what wont change

Tiny has a TOP 50 Jacket
TIny has a RIng
Tiny has a bust in the HOF
Tiny has a All Star game MVP trophy
Tiny has a ALL NBA FIRST TEAM plaque
All things KJ doesnt have
oh wait
KJ has you as the president of his fan club
TIny doesnt:roll:

[Niquesports]

He never won an NBA Championship. He won a ring, near the end of his career averaging 14/8.

He did however win a scoring title. However, this was on a non-playoff team where he dominated the ball. His team finished with 36 wins, while he averaged 34ppg. To me, scoring all of those points is useless when you can't even get your team in the playoffs. He actually ended up making playoffs only once in his prime. Even Bosh has at least matched that. T-Mac, who is known for losing, has done quite better. Making playoffs once in your prime is just bad period. Iverson has been able to do a lot better as well.


How many players make 2nd team all nba near the end of there career?
And with all you are saying the minds of basketball selected him as one of the 50 Greatest of all time how many votes did KJ get from the media coaches and his peers.

[Snoop_Cat]

I hate GP_20, but even I think he's got the better argument for KJ. KJ was the f*cking man in his prime Phoenix years.

In regards to the whole All-NBA thing, look at who KJ and Tiny had to compete with, respectfully.

Tiny has 3 1st teams in where his competition was guys like old Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, Pete Maravich, JoJo White, Walt Frazier, George Gervin.
Gervin was in the latter part of Tiny's career while West was old by then.

Kevin Johnson:
One spot was automatically Jordan's and for a bit Magic's
The other guys competing for ONE guard spot: Drexler, Stockton, Payton, Dumars, Mark Price, both Hardaways. When MJ was out, KJ was injured.

No disrespect to Tiny's era, but those guys weren't Jordan and Magic, especially an old Jerry West.

[GP_20]

You are very funny I bet if you made your mind up that the sky was pink even if you looked up and saw a bright clear blue sky you would still argue that the sky is yellow.

Why do people the game to achive personal and team sucess laying out what Tiny has done and what Kj has done Tiny easly wins sad part is you go on and on and its not even close
Its not like a Bird avs magic or Jordan vs Kobe or Jabbar vs Shaq thats the sad part. But you make up all these Tiny this TIny could lead a team to the playoffs well KJ could lead a team to a championship
So you can go on and on and believe in fairy tales but guess what wont change

Tiny has a TOP 50 Jacket
TIny has a RIng
Tiny has a bust in the HOF
Tiny has a All Star game MVP trophy
Tiny has a ALL NBA FIRST TEAM plaque
All things KJ doesnt have
oh wait
KJ has you as the president of his fan club
TIny doesnt:roll:

Nique please don't make me counter those arguments again. I have so many times. But you repeat them. Stop acting like Sir Charles.

Here let's do it again.


Top 50/HOF - First of all, KJ still has a chance for HOF, and his career was not over when Top 50 were selected unlike Tiny's.

But more importantly, KJ is one of the most underrated players of all-time. By definition, he will be overlooked. So the fact that he isn't in the HOF yet isn't surprising at all. Same with Top 50.



All-NBA 1st- KJ peaked around the same time Magic and Jordan did. Neither Tiny, nor any guard in NBA history would've made All-NBA 1st if they peaked when KJ did. Even peaking Stockton was unable to make All-NBA 1st when Magic/MJ were peaking. I can't blame KJ for that.

And thats why awards are all subjective to time/competition.


Rings/Team Success- Tiny got team success and a ring, when he was out of his pirme.







And there you go, you have no argument left. The end.

[GP_20]

I hate GP_20, but even I think he's got the better argument for KJ. KJ was the f*cking man in his prime Phoenix years.


I haven't used any of my strong bullets yet. I have so many good argument for KJ left, this is not close at all.


Follow this debate and see.

[GP_20]

Tiny Archibald vs. Kevin Johnson



Tiny Archibald
1972-1977

385 games

26.7ppg
8.9apg
2.7rpg
46.9% FG
Average wins per year 32-33


Kevin Johnson
1989-1992

310 games

21.2ppg
11.1apg
3.8rpg
50.0% FG
Average wins per year 54-55







Now choose who you got.

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team.
Or the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.





End of Tiny vs. KJ comparison. Quickly examining, even pure statistics show KJ was better for a PG.

Tiny scored more, while KJ got more assists and scored more efficiently. Passing is more important for a PG than scoring, thus KJ racked up more assists, and scored at a more efficient rate. I would say KJ is better statistically. Factor in what kind of teams they put those numbers in, and it's not even close.

[GP_20]

Also, another comparison tool, and to give us an idea of how biased NiqueSports is


TIny was quicker and KJ was the better shooter

However, Tiny Archibald had something else to say about that.



PRO BASKETBALL; Speedy Johnson Races to the Top
GOLDAPER, SAM. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New York, N.Y.: Feb 10, 1991. pg. A.6

He is nearly 25 years old, looks younger and has an altar boy demeanor. He is earning $1,750,000 this season and will reach $2,750,000 in 1995 as part of his seven-year, $15 million contract. Not bad for someone who grew up in the poor section of Sacramento, Calif., thinking baseball rather than basketball.

He is Kevin Johnson, K.J. to some, the point guard of blinding speed, quickness, athleticism, passing ability and penetration for the Phoenix Suns. He is also the starting point guard for the Western Conference in today's National Basketball Association All-Star Game in Charlotte, N.C.

While Johnson has gained increasing individual recognition, he has been even more impressive as a part of the team resurgence of the Suns, who have risen from 28 victories in 1987-88 to become a title contender in the last three seasons.

"He has meant everything to this team," said Cotton Fitzsimmons, who took over as the Suns' coach for the 1988-89 season.

That was the season Johnson gained membership in the exclusive 20-10 club by averaging 20.4 points and 12.2 assists a game. He was in lofty company: Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson and Nate Archibald are the only other players to have accomplished the feat in the history of the N.B.A. He did it again last year and is well on his way to a reprise again this season, averaging 22.2 points (14th in the league), 10.1 assists (4th) and 2.5 steals (5th) after 46 games.

Johnson, who prefers using "we," instead of "I," would rather not discuss being a member of that illustrious club.

But when pressed, he did.

"It wasn't my goal; it's just something that occurred," Johnson said. "My goal is always for the team to have a successful season. Magic and Isiah are my contemporaries and they have championship rings. So does Robertson and Archibald. If I want to be considered in their category, I've got to get a ring. That's how I look at it."

Johnson is often compared with outstanding players past and present, and the same names keep coming up. An informal survey of several players, coaches and general managers produced opinions that the right-handed Sun guard can penetrate like Magic Johnson, is as quick with the ball as John Stockton, and is as good with his left hand as Larry Bird.

But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."

Tom Chambers, Johnson's high-scoring teammate, said, "K.J. has the quickest first step I've ever seen."

Rory Sparrow, the Sacramento Kings' playmaker, said: "He has unbelievable quickness and is a great jumper. He's very tough to guard. The best way to do it is to back off on him and make him prove he can consistently hit the outside jumper."

"K.J. is a rocket," said Maurice Cheeks, the Knicks' point guard. "He's so explosive that he almost invites you to double-team him so he can get by you."

"Tiny was slicker," said Fitzsimmons, who has coached many other outstanding point guards, Archibald and Phil Ford among them, in his 18 years as an N.B.A. coach. "He really knew how to maneuver. Kevin has a great step to basket and is a more physical player. I take him for granted; he's the best I've ever coached. The only way to stop Kevin is to hold him. If the officials don't curtail it, he's unstoppable."

Paul Westphal and Lionel Hollins, both former All-Star guards, now assistant coaches with the Suns, have helped Johnson expand his natural repertory. Naturally ambidextrous, Westphal, who is scheduled to be the Suns' coach when Fitzsimmons retires, has taught Johnson to use the left-hand drive. Hollins has shown him how to use his body and the rim to frustrate shot blockers and how to better find the open man when he is double-teamed.

The 6-foot-1-inch Johnson has become one of the league's most productive point guards in just four pro seasons after a rocky start.

In 1987, his selection as the seventh player in the draft by the Cleveland Cavaliers was met with boos and groans of disappointment by fans. Few had heard of Johnson and some skeptics even questioned the sanity of Wayne Embry, the general manager, who drafted him.

Embry was sure he had made the correct choice.

The Cavs had done their homework well. Johnson, who attended the University of California, was the Golden Bears' career leader in scoring (1,665 points), assists (521) and steals (155).

"We watched films and liked what we saw," Embry said. "We got good reports on him from everywhere but it was his play at the Aloha Classic in Hawaii that moved him up as a lottery pick in most everyone's estimation."

Johnson, describing his trip to Hawaii as "one for business," said he went there to show everyone that "I was a true point guard."

"I had to beat the rap of being a shooting guard in a point guard's body," he said.

Embry was more certain he had made the right choice when he and Gary Fitzsimmons, the Cavaliers' player-personnel director, went to the airport to pick up Johnson for his first news conference. Gary Fitzsimmons is Cotton's son.

"The kid had great personality," Embry said. "As he got off the plane, it was like President Reagan had arrived. He was smiling, joking around and shaking every hand in sight."

But the Cavaliers already had a point guard, a good one at that, in Mark Price. Rather than let one of them languish on the bench, four months into Johnson's rookie season, Johnson was the central figure in a five-player trade that brought Larry Nance to Cleveland.

"We didn't think they could survive together," said Embry, who said he remained a fan of Johnson. "Mark needed the playing time and so did Kevin."

Johnson looks back at his rookie season with Cleveland, when he averaged 20 minutes in 52 games, as a learning experience. "There was a night and day difference between Price and myself," he said. "He taught me so much in a short period of time. I told myself that when I came back for my second season, I would implement all the things he taught me. Whether it was practice or a game, he did everything with the same consistency. He took 500 shots in practice every day, maybe more. If he would have given me one inch, I thought I would have been able to challenge him for the job. He never gave me that inch."

Johnson likes playing in the Pacific Division, and with the Suns in particular, where the offense is more suited to his game.

"Cleveland was a half-court team," he said, "geared to go inside and slow it up. Here, we run and push the ball up the court and, play tough defense. Our objective is to run and outhustle the opposition at both ends of the court."

Johnson believes that "it was one of the greatest trades of all time."

"It was meant to benefit both teams and it has," he said.

A lot of good things have happened to Johnson in Phoenix, the latest of which has been his elevation to starter in the All-Star Game.

What a difference a year makes. The Western Conference coaches voted him on to last year's team as a reserve. But he was in awe of being in the company of Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Akeem Olajuwon and felt more like a spectator than a participant.

"I was so excited I didn't even care if I played," he said. "It was just a dream come true to have my name announced during the introductions and to sit on the bench and be able to listen to Pat Riley in the huddle asking Magic who he wanted to guard on defense, Larry Bird or Michael Jordan."

Today, he will be playing alongside Magic in an all-Johnson starting backcourt.

[Photograph]
Kevin Johnson driving around John Stockton of the Jazz. (Reuters)

[Illustration]
"Watching a Sun Rise," showing Kevin Johnson's year-by-year statistics.


Quote from that article:


But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."



Tiny Archibald himself says KJ was quicker and a better shooter.

[GP_20]

I'm also waiting to hear how a legend, like Tiny, in his prime, just had 1 non-losing season or only 1 playoff appearance.

Even Iverson and McGrady are laughing at that. I mean, do we all realize how pathetic this is? Tiny did also play with All-Stars in his prime, so he didn't have some of the worst starcasts of all-time, he was given decent teammates. T-Mac, Kobe, AI, did more in 2 years with bad starcasts, than Tiny did in his whole prime.

[Niquesports]

Nique please don't make me counter those arguments again. I have so many times. But you repeat them. Stop acting like Sir Charles.

Here let's do it again.


Top 50/HOF - First of all, KJ still has a chance for HOF, and his career was not over when Top 50 were selected unlike Tiny's.
Was MJ career over how about Shaq ?he has about as much chance of getting into the HOF as Gus Williams who also was better than KJBut more importantly, KJ is one of the most underrated players of all-time. By definition, he will be overlooked. So the fact that he isn't in the HOF yet isn't surprising at all. Same with Top 50.
Who proclaimed this when was this talked about and prove he is only underrated by you just because he wasnt Elite so isnt in the TOP 50 doesnt mean he is underrated if anyone Bob Mcadoo is the most underrated.

All-NBA 1st- KJ peaked around the same time Magic and Jordan did. Neither Tiny, nor any guard in NBA history would've made All-NBA 1st if they peaked when KJ did. Even peaking Stockton was unable to make All-NBA 1st when Magic/MJ were peaking. I can't blame KJ for that.
Im sure if TIny was playing at that time and lead the league in scoring and assist he would have been First Team All NBA GET freakin real
And thats why awards are all subjective to time/competition.


Rings/Team Success- Tiny got team success and a ring, when he was out of his pirme.

But was still a very productive player making the All Star team and making 2nd Al NBA



And there you go, you have no argument left. The end.
Sometimes I think you only read your own post ok awards are subjective then what are opinions? If I wanted to know who was the better player
George Milkin or Neil Johnson what would I base it on awards and selection from his peers or your opinion

[Niquesports]

I'm also waiting to hear how a legend, like Tiny, in his prime, just had 1 non-losing season or only 1 playoff appearance.

Even Iverson and McGrady are laughing at that. I mean, do we all realize how pathetic this is? Tiny did also play with All-Stars in his prime, so he didn't have some of the worst starcasts of all-time, he was given decent teammates. T-Mac, Kobe, AI, did more in 2 years with bad starcasts, than Tiny did in his whole prime.


Well why T-Mac and AI and KJ are laughing in one room Tiny is in another room laughing with an exclusive group of players that were selected into the HOF a room KJ will never be invited into. unless he pays to get in as a fan of the ALL TIME GREATS

[GP_20]

Sometimes I think you only read your own post ok awards are subjective then what are opinions? If I wanted to know who was the better player
George Milkin or Neil Johnson what would I base it on awards and selection from his peers or your opinion
Really, you want to go that route? So you must agree with all of the following

Kobe deserves All-D 1st this year
Larry Hughes was once All-D 1st material
Camby was once DPOY material
Bill Russell >> Wilt (All-Time)
Dominique Wilkins and Bob McAdoo are not Top 50 players
DJ is not a HOF


Now don't tell me you disagree with any of the following above...Those are all what the "peers" voted on, and what the awards are telling us. You agree with all of the above?

[Snoop_Cat]

I'm pretty curious where Reggie Miller ends up on your list with Ray Allen in the 90's. Whenever I read some of these lists, I find that (in my opinion), Reggie is overrated and that his longevity is a good reason why he's placed higher than he should be.

[GP_20]

Im sure if TIny was playing at that time and lead the league in scoring and assist he would have been First Team All NBA GET freakin real

How did I miss this?

Tiny Archibald would lead the league in scoring (over Michael Jordan), and lead the league in assists (over Stockton and Magic), and then make All-NBA 1st over Jordan and Magic at their very best? (these are the years Jordan and Magic were winning MVPs left and right)


Oh my
:roll:

[Niquesports]

Also, another comparison tool, and to give us an idea of how biased NiqueSports is



However, Tiny Archibald had something else to say about that.





Quote from that article:


But the name that surfaced most often in the comparisons was that of Nate (Tiny) Archibald, the only player ever to have led the N.B.A. in both scoring (34.0) and assists (11.4). He did it playing for the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 1972-73 season.

"He's quicker than I was and is a better shooter," Archibald said last week at the Legends Game at Madison Square Garden. "He has great determination. He'll do anything it takes to win."



Tiny Archibald himself says KJ was quicker and a better shooter.
Wow that really makes KJ better why dont you post my whole response when I said what does it matter who the quicker or better shooter was wasnt KJ quicker and a better shooter than Magic also ??????????

[Niquesports]

How did I miss this?

Tiny Archibald would lead the league in scoring (over Michael Jordan), and lead the league in assists (over Stockton and Magic), and then make All-NBA 1st over Jordan and Magic at their very best?


Oh my
:roll:

What part do you find so funny like i said TIny best personal accomplishment was leading the league in scoring and assist if he did it in any era he would have been a first team all NBA. See the part that you should be laughing at is that Tiny has something in common with Jordan,Magic,and Stockton all 4 are TOP 50 KJ isnt so he is in there class KJ isnt
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Thanks for making that clear.

[GP_20]

What part do you find so funny like i said TIny best personal accomplishment was leading the league in scoring and assist if he did it in any era he would have been a first team all NBA. See the part that you should be laughing at is that Tiny has something in common with Jordan,Magic,and Stockton all 4 are TOP 50 KJ isnt so he is in there class KJ isnt
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Thanks for making that clear.
God you are dumb as dirt.

The point is he isn't leading the league in scoring or passing with Magic, Jordan, and Stockton at their peaks. Thus, he would NOT make All-NBA 1st over Magic or Jordan. He wouldn't make it regardless actually lol.

Was the Tiny Archibald that lead the league in scoring/assists better than 88-91 Jordan or a 88-91 Magic?

[GP_20]

Really, you want to go that route? So you must agree with all of the following

Kobe deserves All-D 1st this year
Larry Hughes was once All-D 1st material
Camby was once DPOY material
Bill Russell >> Wilt (All-Time)
Dominique Wilkins and Bob McAdoo are not Top 50 players
DJ is not a HOF


Now don't tell me you disagree with any of the following above...Those are all what the "peers" voted on, and what the awards are telling us. You agree with all of the above?


Hey NiqueSports, don't tell me you are going to ignore the post that kills your best (and worst) argument. Come on.

If you don't agree with all of the above, please don't throw that Top 50 and HOF BS at me.

[Niquesports]

God you are dumb as dirt.

The point is he isn't leading the league in scoring or passing with Magic, Jordan, and Stockton at their peaks. Thus, he would NOT make All-NBA 1st over Magic or Jordan. He wouldn't make it regardless actually lol.

Was the Tiny Archibald that lead the league in scoring/assists better than 88-91 Jordan or a 88-91 Magic?
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
I will answer that when you say I am right or wrong that TIny has something in common with Magic and Jordan that KJ doesnt
CAN WE SAY TOP 50
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Niquesports]

Hey NiqueSports, don't tell me you are going to ignore the post that kills your best (and worst) argument. Come on.

If you don't agree with all of the above, please don't throw that Top 50 and HOF BS at me.


I agree with all of the above
:roll:
:hammertime:

[GP_20]

:roll:
:roll:
:roll:
I will answer that when you say I am right or wrong that TIny has something in common with Magic and Jordan that KJ doesnt
CAN WE SAY TOP 50
:roll: :roll: :roll:
Yeah he does. So does James Worthy and not McAdoo and Dominique Wilkins.

Does that mean James Worthy > McAdoo and Wikins? Yes?

[Niquesports]

Yeah he does. So does James Worthy and not McAdoo and Dominique Wilkins.

Does that mean James Worthy > McAdoo and Wikins? Yes?

Yes
:roll:

[GP_20]

I agree with all of the above
:roll:
:hammertime:


Thank You Debate Over



Pointless, in arguing with someone who looks only at awards, and thinks Larry Hughes was All-D 1st material, Duncan never deserved DPOY, Nash is a 2 Time MVP and deserved both, James Worthy > Wilkins or McAdoo ever were, Camby was a deserving DPOY, KC Jones = HOF, but not DJ, Kobe is on par with MJ on defense (All-D teams), etc.


Thanks, you have done the job for me, you have proven that you are an idiot.



I don't need to say anything else, everyone can just read and laugh at you.

[L.Kizzle]

I'm pretty curious where Reggie Miller ends up on your list with Ray Allen in the 90's. Whenever I read some of these lists, I find that (in my opinion), Reggie is overrated and that his longevity is a good reason why he's placed higher than he should be.
It's actually his playoff heroics as to why he's placed so highly on list.

Only 3 All-NBA teams and 5 All-Star selections (but some of the greatest moments in NBA Playoff history, EVER!)

[GP_20]

It's actually his playoff heroics as to why he's placed so highly on list.

Only 3 All-NBA teams and 5 All-Star selections (but some of the greatest moments in NBA Playoff history, EVER!)
Kizzle you have any arguments for Tiny? I've completely Annihilated NiqueSports.


Who do you have Kizzle?



Tiny Archibald vs. Kevin Johnson



Tiny Archibald
1972-1977

385 games

26.7ppg
8.9apg
2.7rpg
46.9% FG
Average wins per year 32-33


Kevin Johnson
1989-1992

310 games

21.2ppg
11.1apg
3.8rpg
50.0% FG
Average wins per year 54-55







Now choose who you got.

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team.
Or the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.





End of Tiny vs. KJ comparison. Quickly examining, even pure statistics show KJ was better for a PG.

Tiny scored more, while KJ got more assists and scored more efficiently. Passing is more important for a PG than scoring, thus KJ racked up more assists, and scored at a more efficient rate. I would say KJ is better statistically. Factor in what kind of teams they put those numbers in, and it's not even close.


Note: Kevin Johnson did it against tougher competition as well.



I know you think Tiny is better, so why?

Tiny's prime playoff success is lower than any All-Star (Not HOF or legend), that I can recall.

AI and McGrady look like they've been doing a lot of winning compared to Tiny Archibald. What do all of the numbers mean when you can't make playoffs? It's not too difficult to put great numbers on bad teams. Durant, Granger, for example. Are they both better than players like Melo? (Melo had worse numbers, but at least KJ was on par or better than Tiny statistically)

[Niquesports]

Thank You Debate Over



Pointless, in arguing with someone who looks only at awards, and thinks Larry Hughes was All-D 1st material, Duncan never deserved DPOY, Nash is a 2 Time MVP and deserved both, James Worthy > Wilkins or McAdoo ever were, Camby was a deserving DPOY, KC Jones = HOF, but not DJ, Kobe is on par with MJ on defense (All-D teams), etc.


Thanks, you have done the job for me, you have proven that you are an idiot.



I don't need to say anything else, everyone can just read and laugh at you.

You are right Im a idiot for debating with a fool
BIG DUMMY
:roll:

[L.Kizzle]

Kizzle you have any arguments for Tiny? I've completely Annihilated NiqueSports.


Who do you have Kizzle?




Note: Kevin Johnson did it against tougher competition as well.



I know you think Tiny is better, so why?

Tiny's prime playoff success is lower than any All-Star (Not HOF or legend), that I can recall.

AI and McGrady look like they've been doing a lot of winning compared to Tiny Archibald. What do all of the numbers mean when you can't make playoffs? It's not too difficult to put great numbers on bad teams. Durant, Granger, for example. Are they both better than players like Melo? (Melo had worse numbers, but at least KJ was on par or better than Tiny statistically)
The only thing I'm gonna say is, about that Tiny quote about KJ. Clyde Drexler said the same thing about Tracy McGrady ... other than that's it's actually closer than we think. KJ is one of the more underrated players ever (but slightly overrated on ISH, thanks to Glove, but that's not a bad thing. We need more posters to let others see how great someone was in their time, were is a Sidney Moncrief fan at??)

But Tiny was a special player, I've seen dude play (not in person like KJ) and he was just stuck on some bad teams.

[GP_20]

The only thing I'm gonna say is, about that Tiny quote about KJ. Clyde Drexler said the same thing about Tracy McGrady ... other than that's it's actually closer than we think. KJ is one of the more underrated players ever (but slightly overrated on ISH, thanks to Glove, but that's not a bad thing. We need more posters to let others see how great someone was in their time, were is a Sidney Moncrief fan at??)

But Tiny was a special player, I've seen dude play (not in person like KJ) and he was just stuck on some bad teams.
Tiny did play with some All-Stars in his prime during those tough years. He had multiple seasons with an All-Star teammate actually. T-Mac, AI, Kobe, GP, all were able to lead their teams to the playoffs without all-stars multiple times.

The problem with Tiny was that he was too ball dominant, really never gave anyone else a chance, didn't believe in his teammates, which is really important for a superstar to do, or he will fail like Archibald did.


So the teammates excuse isn't that good. He was given All-Stars. And, like I said, I can't think of any other All-stars (forget HOFs or legends), that have made playoffs only once in their prime. It kind of makes their numbers less significant, like you do with Granger/Durant.


So do you really think Tiny is better than KJ? I can't see why. It might be closer than I am making it, but really, it's crystal clear KJ was better.

[L.Kizzle]

Tiny did play with some All-Stars in his prime during those tough years. He had multiple seasons with an All-Star teammate actually. T-Mac, AI, Kobe, GP, all were able to lead their teams to the playoffs without all-stars multiple times.

The problem with Tiny was that he was too ball dominant, really never gave anyone else a chance, didn't believe in his teammates, which is really important for a superstar to do, or he will fail like Archibald did.


So the teammates excuse isn't that good. He was given All-Stars. And, like I said, I can't think of any other All-stars (forget HOFs or legends), that have made playoffs only once in their prime. It kind of makes their numbers less significant, like you do with Granger/Durant.


So do you really think Tiny is better than KJ? I can't see why. It might be closer than I am making it, but really, it's crystal clear KJ was better.
I think Jimmie "Dynamite" Walker was his All-Star teammate right? Come on, that's like saying Baron Davis had an All-Star team mate in NO (Jamaal Magloire.) Well Jimie's better, but you see what I'm sayin. Not to mention this guy didn't have a home town. They played between four cities I believe.

[Niquesports]

The only thing I'm gonna say is, about that Tiny quote about KJ. Clyde Drexler said the same thing about Tracy McGrady ... other than that's it's actually closer than we think. KJ is one of the more underrated players ever (but slightly overrated on ISH, thanks to Glove, but that's not a bad thing. We need more posters to let others see how great someone was in their time, were is a Sidney Moncrief fan at??)

But Tiny was a special player, I've seen dude play (not in person like KJ) and he was just stuck on some bad teams.


This would have been a respectable discussion if
1 The guy had ever seen TIny play he was isiah,AI,Chris Paul even KJ before these guys
2 If he got off Tiny who anyone that know basketball was weak teams
3 He he proved something KJ did that makes him elite. something anything he has some pretty impressive numbers but nothing ground breaking he his teams never won anything and he played on some really good teams much better than the team Tiny played on and then he wants to dissmiss the Fact that TIny played a major role in helping Boston win a title he wasnt like Cassell was with Boston.
But you cant tell this guy anything

[GP_20]

I think Jimmie "Dynamite" Walker was his All-Star teammate right? Come on, that's like saying Baron Davis had an All-Star team mate in NO (Jamaal Magloire.) Well Jimie's better, but you see what I'm sayin. Not to mention this guy didn't have a home town. They played between four cities I believe.
He had 4-5 years of his prime in KC I believe.

But anyways, he played with All-Stars such as Sam Lacey and Tom Van Arsdale. Jimmy Walker is another good player he played with. You might have never heard of them, but I didn't say Tiny played with HOFs. These are juts those 1-2 time all-star type players that won't be remembered in 40 years.

They are good still.

That's still a lot better than T-Mac, Kobe, GP, and AI had it as they dragged their teams into the playoffs.


We are litterally comparing Melo to Durant here. Except, KJ put numbers on par or better than Tiny, while Melo's were clearly worse. Do you realize how much easier to have good numbers when your team is winning 33 games instead of 55?

[L.Kizzle]

He had 4-5 years of his prime in KC I believe.

But anyways, he played with All-Stars such as Sam Lacey and Tom Van Arsdale. Jimmy Walker is another good player he played with. You might have never heard of them, but I didn't say Tiny played with HOFs. These are juts those 1-2 time all-star type players that won't be remembered in 40 years.

They are good still.

That's still a lot better than T-Mac, Kobe, GP, and AI had it as they dragged their teams into the playoffs.


We are litterally comparing Melo to Durant here. Except, KJ put numbers on par or better than Tiny, while Melo's were clearly worse. Do you realize how much easier to have good numbers when your team is winning 33 games instead of 55?
I know who they are, Arsdale was past his prime though. KJ did play with some talent, (even before Chuck) Chambers, Thunder Dan, Ced, Jeff Hornacek, ect.

Its not easier as the defense is all on you now.

But, both are great players, KJ should be higher than 99. Tiny has gotten passed up on the 50 list ...

[GP_20]

I know who they are, Arsdale was past his prime though. KJ did play with some talent, (even before Chuck) Chambers, Thunder Dan, Ced, Jeff Hornacek, ect.

Its not easier as the defense is all on you now.

But, both are great players, KJ should be higher than 99. Tiny has gotten passed up on the 50 list ...
Acutually, when I was referencing to Arsdale and Lacey, I was saying they both had All-Star seasons while playing with Tiny. Thus, Arsdale was still All-Star caliber with Tiny. As was Lacey.

It's easier to put up better numbers. Is this debatable? Every star player has put up better numbers when their teammates are worse because he has the ball more, so he has better stats. Granger and Durant are starters. Kobe had some of his strongest statistical seasons when he was alone. T-Mac too, he did it in Orlando, not Houston with Ming. Payton, Jordan, Iverson, etc. The list goes on forever actually. Almost always, any player put up better stats when his teammates were worse.

This is common sense.




Can you at least make it seem like it's close Kizzle? I mean seriously, I'm starting to lose all sight of how its even close.


What's so special about missing the playoffs every year in your prime but once? What a waste of a prime. Imagine if it happened to a player today, how would they be viewed.

If you seriously think

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team is worse than
the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.

Than you might as well tell me right now you think Durant and Granger are clearly better than Melo. Stop using double standards, and choose based on how you would choose in any other situation.

[Niquesports]

Acutually, when I was referencing to Arsdale and Lacey, I was saying they both had All-Star seasons while playing with Tiny. Thus, Arsdale was still All-Star caliber with Tiny. As was Lacey.

It's easier to put up better numbers. Is this debatable? Every star player has put up better numbers when their teammates are worse because he has the ball more, so he has better stats. Granger and Durant are starters. Kobe had some of his strongest statistical seasons when he was alone. T-Mac too, he did it in Orlando, not Houston with Ming. Payton, Jordan, Iverson, etc. The list goes on forever actually. Almost always, any player put up better stats when his teammates were worse.

This is common sense.




Can you at least make it seem like it's close Kizzle? I mean seriously, I'm starting to lose all sight of how its even close.


What's so special about missing the playoffs every year in your prime but once? What a waste of a prime. Imagine if it happened to a player today, how would they be viewed.

If you seriously think

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team is worse than
the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.

Than you might as well tell me right now you think Durant and Granger are clearly better than Melo. Stop using double standards, and choose based on how you would choose in any other situation.


ITs amazing how you twist things around is Durant better than Mello.
Ok its time to take the gloves off

Lets look at what Tiny was working with
His 2 best supporting cast players
Sam Lacey at best a avg C
Tom Van Arsdale

Lets look at the teams in the Royals Division

just above them with just 40 victories
The Piston with
Dave Bing HOF TOP 50
and Bob Lanier HOF
Curtis Rowe of UCLA fame

above the Pistons were the mighty Bulls

All they had was Bob Love a true underrated player
Chet Walker same could be said
Norm Van Lier who the Royals traded becuse the were happy with TIny
Jerry Sloan

THen in first place the Bucks we know who they had.

So you really expect Tiny with Sam Lacey and one of the Van Asdale bro to out play these 3 teams .BY the way the Royals look at Tiny and looked at Norm Van Lier a very good guard and traded Van Lier
The Cavs look at mark Price and Looked at KJ and felt they'd be better off with Price.
Interesting.

above the Piston

[GP_20]

ITs amazing how you twist things around is Durant better than Mello.
Ok its time to take the gloves off

Lets look at what Tiny was working with
His 2 best supporting cast players
Sam Lacey at best a avg C
Tom Van Arsdale

Lets look at the teams in the Royals Division

just above them with just 40 victories
The Piston with
Dave Bing HOF TOP 50
and Bob Lanier HOF
Curtis Rowe of UCLA fame

above the Pistons were the mighty Bulls

All they had was Bob Love a true underrated player
Chet Walker same could be said
Norm Van Lier who the Royals traded becuse the were happy with TIny
Jerry Sloan

THen in first place the Bucks we know who they had.

So you really expect Tiny with Sam Lacey and one of the Van Asdale bro to out play these 3 teams .BY the way the Royals look at Tiny and looked at Norm Van Lier a very good guard and traded Van Lier
The Cavs look at mark Price and Looked at KJ and felt they'd be better off with Price.
Interesting.

above the Piston

lol at Sam Lacey being an average center. Didn't know "All-Star" was average now.



But easy counter to your argument. Ok forget making playoffs once in his prime, I understand it might have been tough to.

Here, Tiny Archibald has had only one non-losing season in his prime.


Done

[Niquesports]

lol at Sam Lacey being an average center. Didn't know "All-Star" was average now.



But easy counter to your argument. Ok forget making playoffs once in his prime, I understand it might have been tough to.

Here, Tiny Archibald has had only one non-losing season in his prime.


Done


Again dont just look at a stat and make a conclusion what teams had better records than his and were them teams much better or not
As for Lacey ask anyone that has seen him play like myself would say at best he is avg. Very tough played big and a good rebounder nothing special

Some other players that made 1 All Star game that were avg like Lacey

Michael Adams
B J Armstrong
Dana Barros
Joe Barry Carroll
Dale Davis
Lonnie Shelton another Sam Lacey
can you just admit that the team Tiny was on was very weak which helps to explain the record

[GP_20]

Again dont just look at a stat and make a conclusion what teams had better records than his and were them teams much better or not
As for Lacey ask anyone that has seen him play like myself would say at best he is avg. Very tough played big and a good rebounder nothing special

Some other players that made 1 All Star game that were avg like Lacey

Michael Adams
B J Armstrong
Dana Barros
Joe Barry Carroll
Dale Davis
Lonnie Shelton another Sam Lacey
can you just admit that the team Tiny was on was very weak which helps to explain the record

I admit Tiny's team wasn't that good, but it was not horrible. Lacey was still near all-star level with Tiny. Same with Arsdale. Same with Jimmy Walker.

That's still a lot better than anyone Kobe had in his 05-07 run. How about T-Mac in his Orlando days? Iverson in his 76ers days? Gary Payton in his post-Kemp Sonic days? Archibald still had better teammates than either of those guys did in some years they took their team to the playoffs OR had non-losing seasons.

You think Tiny Archibald is the only All-Star in history to be in bad teams? No way. Superstars, with far worse starcasts, have had non-losing seasons. It's not that hard really. If you are good enough, you can singlehandedly take your team to the playoffs, and Tiny had help.


And at the very least, you still have to discount stats, as I've showed it's easier to put up great stats when your team sucks and wins like 30 games (check Durant/Granger).

[Niquesports]

lol at Sam Lacey being an average center. Didn't know "All-Star" was average now.



But easy counter to your argument. Ok forget making playoffs once in his prime, I understand it might have been tough to.

Here, Tiny Archibald has had only one non-losing season in his prime.


Done


There you go again with twisting things with his prime what was Jordans first 7 years ? are these Jordan's prime and the years we should judge Jordan since you are judging Tiny on his first few years how did Isiah do his first few years

[Niquesports]

I admit Tiny's team wasn't that good, but it was not horrible. Lacey was still near all-star level with Tiny. Same with Arsdale. Same with Jimmy Walker.

That's still a lot better than anyone Kobe had in his 05-07 run. How about T-Mac in his Orlando days? Iverson in his 76ers days? Gary Payton in his post-Kemp Sonic days? Archibald still had better teammates than either of those guys did in some years they took their team to the playoffs OR had non-losing seasons.

You think Tiny Archibald is the only All-Star in history to be in bad teams? No way. Superstars, with far worse starcasts, have had non-losing seasons. It's not that hard really. If you are good enough, you can singlehandedly take your team to the playoffs, and Tiny had help.


And at the very least, you still have to discount stats, as I've showed it's easier to put up great stats when your team sucks and wins like 30 games (check Durant/Granger).


Lacey and Van Arsdale arent better than what Kobe had or T Mac or Ai why just say things show who these guys had and prove your point. I showed that the Royals were behind 3 much better teams The Royals then and have been for a long time a terrible frachice .
But with your same point a superstar like KJ should have been able to lift his team up to win at least 1 title he has played with some really great players. Maybe its just me but I dont see how you can clearly not see that Tiny was on a different level than KJ lets look at a list

Magic
Oscar
Isiah
Frazier
TIny
Gary Payton
Stockton
Cousy
DJ
Kidd

These are the top 10 PG after Magic and Oscar and Isiah it doesnt matter what order you put them
Kj is in the next group maybe even 11

[GP_20]

Lacey and Van Arsdale arent better than what Kobe had or T Mac or Ai why just say things show who these guys had and prove your point. I showed that the Royals were behind 3 much better teams The Royals then and have been for a long time a terrible frachice .
But with your same point a superstar like KJ should have been able to lift his team up to win at least 1 title he has played with some really great players. Maybe its just me but I dont see how you can clearly not see that Tiny was on a different level than KJ lets look at a list


Are you kidding me? He's on a different level based on what lol.

KJ lifted the Suns, the same way Nash did when winning his 2 MVPs. Kidd didn't win a title. Stockton didn't win a title.

KJ in his peak was clearly better than a peak Stockton. Clearly. I have strong arguments for that too. If you can outdue Stockton in your peak, Tiny, is nothing.



And lol. Lacey and Arsdale are better than any of the non-all-star teammates Kobe/TMac/AI had. Just because they are from the 70s doesn't mean you can just discount them. They were borderline all-stars.

That's a good enough starcast to take your team to the playoffs, ALL the other superstars were able to. Tiny shouldn't be an exception.




Also, even with all of that

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team is better than
the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.

That's their numbers through their primes/peaks. If you don't think so, then don't use double standards and say Melo is better than Granger/Durant.




Seriously, where is it close? 21/11/50% is on another level from 27/9/47/33 wins. It's like comparing Melo to Granger, but worse.

[Niquesports]

Jordan was dominant in all his years as a Bull. That would be his prime. He was out of his prime in Washington. He had a longer than usual peak as well (Maybe 88-93?)

I'm using Tiny's prime. When he was at his best. 98 Jordan was comparable to 93 Jordan.

Me and you both agreed that in Boston, he was out of his prime.
So let's not go there. I can get the quote. So I'm using Tiny's prime here.


You can get what you want I still say he was productive in Boston and not just some old vet coming off the bench like a Walton or cassell prime or no prime he sure wasnt over the hill. Not making second team ALL NBA and being named MVP of the ALL STAR Game
again just show me something KJ did I like Kj he just isnt in the Elite Group of PG

[GP_20]

And really NiqueSports, I dont' want to discuss it with someone as close-minded as you.

After your Top 50/HOF/Awards statement, it's pointless discussing it with someone so close-minded.


The stronger argument is for KJ, and if you don't believe that, listen to people around you. I can show you the other thread too.



You can stay ignorant, I don't care. I'm moving on.

[GP_20]

Here is the compilation of comments from both threads on KJ vs. Tiny.

These are all the people not involved in the debate itself, but just listening to the arguments.



i skimmed over all of this Tiny vs. KJ debate, and Glove has made lots of good points about KJ, and his argument is stronger. I would've ranked Tiny higher earlier, but after finding out he has made playoffs just once in his prime, I have changed my mind. I mean that is inexcusable.

glove got the better of this debate, you just got owned just right now with that article Glove posted. Glove does it again with another great rankings thread, good stuff :applause:



Glove is spot on. He has made some great points in this debate and i think its clear he has won. By the Niquesports, please just stop, all ur arguments are weak and have failed. You remind me of Sir Charles at this point. Saying the same things over and over again.



Niquesports (Guy I was arguing with) is getting shred into pieces. LMAO



Glove is owning these fools Nique and Showtime. Damn good points there dude.


I hate GP_20, but even I think he's got the better argument for KJ. KJ was the f*cking man in his prime Phoenix years.




There is a clear winner here. Not one perosn said anything pro-Tiny.


You can stay ignorant, but the facts/arguments/objectivity/stats/skill say otherwise.


Done till someone can actually provide good arguments why Tiny is better.


No one is actually stupid enough to think
a 27/9/47%/33 win Prime is better than a 21/11/50%/55 win.
Just like no one thinks Granger is better than Melo or something.

[Niquesports]

Are you kidding me? He's on a different level based on what lol.

KJ lifted the Suns, the same way Nash did when winning his 2 MVPs. Kidd didn't win a title. Stockton didn't win a title.

KJ in his peak was clearly better than a peak Stockton. Clearly. I have strong arguments for that too. If you can outdue Stockton in your peak, Tiny, is nothing.



And lol. Lacey and Arsdale are better than any of the non-all-star teammates Kobe/TMac/AI had. Just because they are from the 70s doesn't mean you can just discount them. They were borderline all-stars.

That's a good enough starcast to take your team to the playoffs, ALL the other superstars were able to. Tiny shouldn't be an exception.




Also, even with all of that

The 21/11/50% player on a 55 win team is better than
the 27/9/47% player on a 33 win team.

That's their numbers through their primes/peaks. If you don't think so, then don't use double standards and say Melo is better than Granger/Durant.




Seriously, where is it close? 21/11/50% is on another level from 27/9/47/33 wins. It's like comparing Melo to Granger, but worse.


OK did Granger make First team All NBA how about Durant ?

Well Tiny did on a losing team so its a bad comparison. ITs funny how to prove your point you only deal with Tiny time with the Royas

what numbers did you use for TIny when he was with Boston running the offense
14/8 winning a title is better than 21/11 by your logic


You have made your point i agree DJ should be in the HOF but I also feel DJ was better than KJ so it means nothing
Sure Mcadoo should have been a top 50 but I dont feel KJ is
and Worthy in my mind is even more underrated than KJ he would have been a monster on a team built around him but might also been ringless like Barkley and Dominiqe.
Like I have said KJ was a very good player but not Elite all you have done is knock TIny you havent shown anything to prove or show why KJ should be considered Elite I have with TIny you may dispute the awards the title ect but it puts him on common ground with elite players what puts KJ there what achivement does he have that put him on common ground with the Elite

[G.O.A.T]

I've never seen anything so petty and ridiculous in a forum.

GP-20 you are a sad pathetic person and now permenently on my ignore list, please leave this thread.

Also can I get a mdoerator to take those posts out and add them to a seprate thread.

[GP_20]

I've never seen anything so petty and ridiculous in a forum.

GP-20 you are a sad pathetic person and now permenently on my ignore list, please leave this thread.

Also can I get a mdoerator to take those posts out and add them to a seprate thread.
Why the f*uck is EVERYONE then agreeing with me dumbass? Not ONE inolved outside the debate said Tiny's argument was better.



i skimmed over all of this Tiny vs. KJ debate, and Glove has made lots of good points about KJ, and his argument is stronger. I would've ranked Tiny higher earlier, but after finding out he has made playoffs just once in his prime, I have changed my mind. I mean that is inexcusable.

glove got the better of this debate, you just got owned just right now with that article Glove posted. Glove does it again with another great rankings thread, good stuff :applause:



Glove is spot on. He has made some great points in this debate and i think its clear he has won. By the Niquesports, please just stop, all ur arguments are weak and have failed. You remind me of Sir Charles at this point. Saying the same things over and over again.



Niquesports (Guy I was arguing with) is getting shred into pieces. LMAO



Glove is owning these fools Nique and Showtime. Damn good points there dude.


I hate GP_20, but even I think he's got the better argument for KJ. KJ was the f*cking man in his prime Phoenix years.




You putting KJ at #99 has lost you all credibility of the list to begin with.

What a start lol

[Niquesports]

Here is the compilation of comments from both threads on KJ vs. Tiny.

These are all the people not involved in the debate itself, but just listening to the arguments.


Well you feel happy with the support of some kids that cant spell basketball that say Kj is better and I feel happy with the HOF selction committe and the TOp 50 voters so IM glad your Glad I could care less what some guy that never saw Tiny play thinks my guy has been acknowledge for his game Kj will be a forgotten player in about 20 years as long as the HOF is open Tiny will be represented.

So final Score
HOF TIny wins
ISH KJ wins

can you see how silly that is













There is a clear winner here. Not one perosn said anything pro-Tiny.


You can stay ignorant, but the facts/arguments/objectivity/stats/skill say otherwise.


Done till someone can actually provide good arguments why Tiny is better.


No one is actually stupid enough to think
a 27/9/47%/33 win Prime is better than a 21/11/50%/55 win.
Just like no one thinks Granger is better than Melo or something.
Glad you stuck on stupid now what is it again that KJ has done that makes him so special I have shown Tiny's you may agree or disagree but what has KJ done that makes him special

[G.O.A.T]

Why the f*uck is EVERYONE then agreeing with me dumbass?

It has nothing to do with your argument it's why you care so much and think anyone else cares what a bunch of faceless strangers think of you.

You make some very good statistical points, but you leave out that tiny was injured during many of the years you mentioned that KJ's suns scored and allowed 155 a game and Tiny's Kings just over 100. You also ignore the era which was one where assists were much harder to come by because field goal percentages were lower and scorekeepers were more strict on assists.

I would like to have the discussion because you are fairly well informed by the little I've gotten to see of you, but your a total douche and have no idea how to debate.

Where is the ignore list feature on this site and the damn moderators.

[Niquesports]

I've never seen anything so petty and ridiculous in a forum.

GP-20 you are a sad pathetic person and now permenently on my ignore list, please leave this thread.

Also can I get a mdoerator to take those posts out and add them to a seprate thread.


Not even sure why I have let this silly thing go this far this was a great Post Im done with Gp

[G.O.A.T]

I can do that too actually. But I'm quite behind on what I was set to accomplish today. Maybe late tonight, or tomorrow, I'll show why KJ is special.

Please start your own thread to do so.

Does anyone know where I can find a mod? PM me!

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T][I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]There is no doubt that since the beginning of basketball and until very recent times, there has been no position more important and more dominant in the history of the game then the center position. These giants of their time have almost always been the

[G.O.A.T]

Nice, you even put forwards like it's a book.

3 nice players there who were overshadowed by Mikan/Macauley/Russell/Wilt/Reed/Jabbar/Walton,ect.

Thanks L.kizzle for trying to bring this thing back around.

No doubt about it, Lanier was my favorite when I was real young, always loved the Dobber.

[GP_20]

It has nothing to do with your argument it's why you care so much and think anyone else cares what a bunch of faceless strangers think of you.

You make some very good statistical points, but you leave out that tiny was injured during many of the years you mentioned that KJ's suns scored and allowed 155 a game and Tiny's Kings just over 100. You also ignore the era which was one where assists were much harder to come by because field goal percentages were lower and scorekeepers were more strict on assists.

I would like to have the discussion because you are fairly well informed by the little I've gotten to see of you, but your a total douche and have no idea how to debate.

Where is the ignore list feature on this site and the damn moderators.

Just hold on there...You're not going to throw some BS at me and except to get away with it.

1. So you used injuries as a negative on KJ, and now are using injuries as an excuse for Tiny's failure? Injuries are part of the game, if someone is injury prone, that counts against them.

2. Assists were not hard to come by by the 70s. FG%s weren't low either.

For example, in 1973, the league average FG% was 45.6%, and the Assist Average was 25.2. By comparison, the average last year was 45.9%, and the Assists were 20.9apg.

So how are you going to say they were harder to come by? Please explain.


3. The Suns and Tiny's teams both allowed about 110ppg. Once again, weak try.

Also, good PGs like Nash, KJ, Magic, Stockton, they generate pace. Not every PG was going to run the Sun's offense like Nash did, he made it happen. KJ is the same way. So the pace argument isn't that good to start out with.








Really, if you are going to say something, make sure it's at least somewhat thought out.

[Niquesports]

It has nothing to do with your argument it's why you care so much and think anyone else cares what a bunch of faceless strangers think of you.

You make some very good statistical points, but you leave out that tiny was injured during many of the years you mentioned that KJ's suns scored and allowed 155 a game and Tiny's Kings just over 100. You also ignore the era which was one where assists were much harder to come by because field goal percentages were lower and scorekeepers were more strict on assists.

I would like to have the discussion because you are fairly well informed by the little I've gotten to see of you, but your a total douche and have no idea how to debate.

Where is the ignore list feature on this site and the damn moderators.


Its sad when young fans of the game try and use todays standards to past era's and make judgements Oh I watched a youtube of Milkin he was a scurb oh WIlt played against short white players his numbers mean nothing Jerry West wasnt athletic enough to play in todays game I can go on Its offesnive to the game I love. HOw does a player get pushed out of the top 50 without being able to defend himself you just add to the number ranking the players is just opinion but its easy to say these 50 guys were the most productive inovative players in the game. Sure someone gonna get left out Bob Mcadoo but there will always be someone left out. I dont care if Wilt played in a church league 50ppg in a season is Great Russ 11 titles is Great Tiny leading the league in Scoring and Assist is Great until its done again the only players since that would even have a chance of doing this were Magic.Bird,Isiah, and Jordan and they couldn't do it but what were they Great it has to mean something. GOAT move on with your thread this foolishness is done.

[GP_20]

Its sad when young fans of the game try and use todays standards to past era's and make judgements Oh I watched a youtube of Milkin he was a scurb oh WIlt played against short white players his numbers mean nothing Jerry West wasnt athletic enough to play in todays game I can go on Its offesnive to the game I love. HOw does a player get pushed out of the top 50 without being able to defend himself you just add to the number ranking the players is just opinion but its easy to say these 50 guys were the most productive inovative players in the game. Sure someone gonna get left out Bob Mcadoo but there will always be someone left out. I dont care if Wilt played in a church league 50ppg in a season is Great Russ 11 titles is Great Tiny leading the league in Scoring and Assist is Great until its done again the only players since that would even have a chance of doing this were Magic.Bird,Isiah, and Jordan and they couldn't do it but what were they Great it has to mean something. GOAT move on with your thread this foolishness is done.

No one is using the era argument here. No one is calling Mikan or Wilt scrubs. However, no matter what era you are in, putting up great stats on weak teams is not too difficult.


I'm not going to treat Durant's stats the same way I treat Kobe's. They are on totally different teams in terms of level of play. This is common sense really. The worse your team is, the more you have the ball, and the better your stats are.

[Niquesports]

Nice, you even put forwards like it's a book.

3 nice players there who were overshadowed by Mikan/Macauley/Russell/Wilt/Reed/Jabbar/Walton,ect.


I have always wondered where Wes Unseld ranks he isnt in the top 5 maybe nott even top 10 but pound for pound he was Great at best 6'8 but was a great rebounder and maybe the best outlet passer ever. but rare do you hear his name just a thought when I saw Walt and Big Bob
Goat give me a clue is Bob Love on your list that was my man

[L.Kizzle]

I have always wondered where Wes Unseld ranks he isnt in the top 5 maybe nott even top 10 but pound for pound he was Great at best 6'8 but was a great rebounder and maybe the best outlet passer ever. but rare do you hear his name just a thought when I saw Walt and Big Bob
Goat give me a clue is Bob Love on your list that was my man
Wes will be on the list above these three centers.

I doubt Bob Love is on the list, as I already saw Marques Johnson at 98. No way he's higher. If Love is here, than you'll have to have the Walter Davis', Rolando Blackmans' Larry Kennon's, Charlie Scot, Jojo White ect.

I do wonder is Super Luo Hudson is here?? Most underrated player ever.

[Niquesports]

Wes will be on the list above these three centers.

I doubt Bob Love is on the list, as I already saw Marques Johnson at 98. No way he's higher. If Love is here, than you'll have to have the Walter Davis', Rolando Blackmans' Larry Kennon's, Charlie Scot, Jojo White ect.

I do wonder is Super Luo Hudson is here?? Most underrated player ever.


I wonder if that Bulls team had won a ship how players like Bob Chet Slone and Norm would be looked at that was a very good team

Not sure about Kennon great dunker and wonderful Bush but I got him below LOve Now Im really hoping to see Jo JO and the Gray houndWalter Davis

[momo]

Could score, pass, defend. Many All-Star and All-NBA selections. 20/10 PG numbers for some some seasons. Playoff appearances.



He was also impossible to keep out of the lane.

[G.O.A.T]

Wes will be on the list above these three centers.

I doubt Bob Love is on the list, as I already saw Marques Johnson at 98. No way he's higher. If Love is here, than you'll have to have the Walter Davis', Rolando Blackmans' Larry Kennon's, Charlie Scot, Jojo White ect.

I do wonder is Super Luo Hudson is here?? Most underrated player ever.

I think I'll do a couple brief posts on the next 25 or so guys who I left off the list but barely. I won't give away the fates of the players mentioned above just yet though. After I hit 65 or so and it's clear which guys are left off, I'll do that.



I wonder if that Bulls team had won a ship how players like Bob Chet Slone and Norm would be looked at that was a very good team

Not sure about Kennon great dunker and wonderful Bush but I got him below LOve Now Im really hoping to see Jo JO and the Gray hound Walter Davis

I loved those Bulls teams with Walker on the outside, the unflappable Norm Van Lier at the point and of course Jerry Sloan and Bob Love at forward. Good defensive teams, too bad Gilmore couldn't have been there for that run.

[G.O.A.T]

Please dont open up that can of worms it will take weeks with him and KJ

How right you were, sorry for not listening.

[GP_20]

How right you were, sorry for not listening.
Sorry for taking this debate in your thread which was meant for bigger purposes than just Kevin Johnson.

But, hey, you did say go ahead and discuss this issue at the beginning. I made arguments for Kevin Johnson, which were far more convincing and stronger than any of the "Tiny Archibald is in the HOF" (That is such a lame argument, which I've overturned already).

I thought you put thought into this, but seeing KJ so low, and then I'll most likely see Tiny so high, when there is absolutely no reason to take a 27/9/47% PG on a 33 win team over a 21/11/50% on a 55 win team. This is not a season we are talking about, those numbers define their primes. but hey whatever. You just better not use double standards and cut anyone else low for a lack of playoff success. And I'm assuming since you take Tiny over KJ, you would probably say Granger is a way better player than Melo following the logic here.

[G.O.A.T]

[I][FONT="Palatino Linotype"][SIZE="3"]16 players through the top 99 and we

[Maniak]

:hammerhead:

Why the heck did you quote the whole post?

[WRECK!A!NIZE]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/17/20038946_9807edd74a.jpg
#77 Artis Gilmore
Team(s): Kentucky Cornels, Chicago Bulls, San Antonio Spurs
Years Played: 1971-1988
Career Numbers: 18.8 ppg 12.3 rpg 2.3 apg

Of all the ABA greats to have played at least five years in the fledgling league only three lasted 10 or more years in the NBA; the Ice Man played for ten, the Doctor eleven and the A-train twelve. No it doesn’t have quite the same ring as the other two, but Gilmore was not as flashy, didn’t attract as much attention and liked it that way. In his 17 years as a pro Gilmore was a consistent success, dominating early on as the ABA Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player in 1972. Later winning the ABA all-star game MVP in 1974 and eventually most importantly the ABA playoffs MVP for the 1975 champion Kentucky Cornels. Gilmore was an all-star and All-ABA first team selection all five years he was in the league. He was also the leagues leader in defensive and total rebounds those five years. Upon reaching the NBA Gilmore was acquired by a perpetually rebuilding Chicago Bulls team for whom he averaged 21 points and 11

[G.O.A.T]

Updated the Original post and index to make navigation and reading juch easier and quicker.

[L.Kizzle]

Updated the Original post and index to make navigation and reading juch easier and quicker.
Nice list, I'd have Big Ben at #83 and move everyone else up one. Ben Shouldn't be over Zo Mourning.

[G.O.A.T]

Nice list, I'd have Big Ben at #83 and move everyone else up one. Ben Shouldn't be over Zo Mourning.

Even with the title as a starter not a reserve, twice as many defensive MVP's and all-NBA selections and being the better rebounder?

And you'd put Bobby Jones above him too doesn't a dominant defensive post have a bigger impact then a dominant defensive wing?

Not that I think either of those is crazy, I am just asking.

[Niquesports]

Updated the Original post and index to make navigation and reading juch easier and quicker.


Very Interesting you have Mutombo over Mourning
and Bobby Jones over marques Johnson

[Niquesports]

Even with the title as a starter not a reserve, twice as many defensive MVP's and all-NBA selections and being the better rebounder?

And you'd put Bobby Jones above him too doesn't a dominant defensive post have a bigger impact then a dominant defensive wing?

Not that I think either of those is crazy, I am just asking.


The reason I would take Mourning over BIg Ben is because from what Ive seen he has been a at best avg Center for everyother team he has played on he fit in perfect with the Pistons they didnt need him to score and they had Big PF to make up for his lack of hieght the other teams he played on where they needed him to be a true C he really wasnt that Good Mourning has been a true warrior of a Center with every team he was on scoring rebounding and Defense. YOu my man GOAT and you put iin some hard work but this is a big mistake in my view.

[G.O.A.T]

Very Interesting you have Mutombo over Mourning
and Bobby Jones over marques Johnson

In the foreward to the list it's mentioned that 51-99 in particular are in loose order, and again the top of the last post I said that some of these guys could be higher or lower on the list but I ranked them all together for continuity purposes.

You'll see throughout my list I have a lot of value for role players who excelled in the greatest moments and on the biggest stages. Guys who understood their limitations and still maximized their abilities to become very good and in some cases elite players.

I respect your opinion of Zo over the Fro, but Wallace being such an unlikely cornerstone of a champion defies explanation and makes what he did in his career seem like a greater accomplishment then what Mourning did.

As for Diekembe or Zo, I had too. Dikemebe was so exceptional on defense and a more integral part of more good teams as a center then Zo.

I wanted to rank them side by side for a while, thought it's be fitting since they played three years together at Georgetown.

There is no doubt Alonzo is more skilled a complete player then Mutombo or Ben and of course Marques Johnson was a more dynamic player then Bobby Jones, but the later mentioned guys were all elite at what they did for long periods of time while the former had shorter primes and never really were elite at what they did for very long.

[Niquesports]

In the foreward to the list it's mentioned that 51-99 in particular are in loose order, and again the top of the last post I said that some of these guys could be higher or lower on the list but I ranked them all together for continuity purposes.

You'll see throughout my list I have a lot of value for role players who excelled in the greatest moments and on the biggest stages. Guys who understood their limitations and still maximized their abilities to become very good and in some cases elite players.

I respect your opinion of Zo over the Fro, but Wallace being such an unlikely cornerstone of a champion defies explanation and makes what he did in his career seem like a greater accomplishment then what Mourning did.

As for Diekembe or Zo, I had too. Dikemebe was so exceptional on defense and a more integral part of more good teams as a center then Zo.

I wanted to rank them side by side for a while, thought it's be fitting since they played three years together at Georgetown.

There is no doubt Alonzo is more skilled a complete player then Mutombo or Ben and of course Marques Johnson was a more dynamic player then Bobby Jones, but the later mentioned guys were all elite at what they did for long periods of time while the former had shorter primes and never really were elite at what they did for very long.


I would take Marques over Bobby Jones for all reason you listed Jones was a very good role player but never an elite player like Marques was I still cant see For over Zo he only played a an elite level for his 4 years with the Piston for his years with the Bullets and cavs he wasnt even an avg C he at best was a slightly below avg C. Zo was always one of the top C at a time when the league was so deep with C he made the Hornets a playoff team and the Heat. Cant see Fro doing this

[iounas]

Hurry up with this list, I want to see where you rank DJ Mbenga

[L.Kizzle]

Hurry up with this list, I want to see where you rank DJ Mbenga
DJ was great, around the mid 60's, ooops DJ Mbenga, around the mid 1200s

[G.O.A.T]

I love to see a top 50 goof and goons in NBA history list.

Or a top 50 useless 7 footers list.

[triangleoffense]

how do you have ben wallace as a greater player than zo? alonzo mourning seriously

[G.O.A.T]

how do you have ben wallace as a greater player than zo? alonzo mourning seriously

As I mentioned earlier, Ben has more defensive player of the year awrads, all-defensive team selections, all-NBA selections, rebounding titles and a much better post-season resume. Mourning is clearly the complete and talented player, but Wallace had the better career IMO.

It's certainly debatable.

[G.O.A.T]

The evolution of the two guard is a microcosm of the evolution of basketball, the players have gotten, bigger, stronger, more skilled and flashier as the years have gone on. They are perhaps the most electrifying showman in the game, combining the grace and athleticism of the small forward with the ball handling and perimeter shooting of the point guard. The next four players are four the games greatest showman, they did it in a variety of ways and in a variety of eras and on different stages. Their contributions to game can't bee seen by evaluating their games and their careers only, what these men have done for the dunk, the tall guard, the three point shot and creative ball handling and scoring respectively can be seen in the games of most of today's best young players.


http://www.nba.com/media/nuggets/david_thompson_dunk.jpg
#76 David Thompson
Team(s): Denver Nuggets, Seattle Supersonics
Years Played: 1975-1984
Career Numbers: 22.7 ppg 4.1 rpg 3.3 apg

One of the original high-flyers, the Skywalker David Thompson was one of the five greatest college basketball players ever and followed it up with a great ABA\NBA career that included 2 first team all-NBA selections and five NBA all-star games. Relentless attacking the rim and a ferocious finisher, Thompson would end five seasons as a top five scorer in his league. In his lone ABA season Thompson was rookie of the year, an all-ABA selection and an all-star MVP. He is the only player in the history of the sport to win the MVP of the All-Star game in both leagues further demonstrating his greatness as an entertainer not just an athlete. Over ten combined seasons Thompson averaged nearly 23 points per game, his vertical creative got him credited for inventing the alley-oop a play that is one of today’s games most exciting. Never part of a great team, Thompson reached the ABA finals in 1976 and the Western conference finals in 1978, both times with Denver.


http://www.pixelmechanic.de/media/tracy_mcgrady_dirk_nowitzki.jpg
#75 Tracy McGrady
Team(s): Toronto Raptors, Orlando Magic, Houston Rockets
Years Played: 1997-
Career Numbers: 22.1 ppg 6.1 rpg 4.7 apg

The most notable member of the third class of highschoolers to come through the NBA in the 1990’s. On talent and individual accomplishment alone McGrady is building a top 50 resume, but the fact that even now 12 years into his career he’s still yet to see round two really holds him back. His peak numbers of 32-7-6 are almost unprecedented and his back-to-back scoring titles are no small accomplishment either. Six times he’s finished in the top 10 in scoring and has almost always been his team’s primary ball handler. For a number of years he was considered a top 5-10 player and has seven all-NBA selections to his name, two first team (’02 & ’03) and was an all-star for seven straight years between 2001 and 2007. While his teams’ lack of postseason successes is a fair argument against him, saying he does not come up big in the playoffs is not true; his averages of 29-7-6 are fantastic. Few players in basketball history have combined size, athleticism and skill like Tracy McGrady, he makes the game look effortless, at least November through March. With his health deteriorating and his athleticism waning, McGrady may soon have to adjust to life as a role player or at least third option player; if he’s able to do so for a championship contending team he could still make good on that top 50 promise before all is said and done.


http://www.bballone.com/reggiem/pacers/images/pacers17.jpg
#74 Reggie Miller
Team(s): Indiana Pacers
Years Played: 1987-2005
Career Numbers: 18.2 ppg 3.0 rpg 3.0 apg

Reggie Miller is this high on the list for more then one reason. Nobody has made as many dramatic, legendary plays on the big stage then Reggie Miller and nobody could have done it with the sweet style he did and that is what distinguishes his career more then anything else but... In addition to what everyone always talks about with Reggie, his flair for the dramatic and greatness in the clutch, he has been the most durable shooting guard the league has ever seen. Miller was a supremely conditioned athlete; he never stopped working and there is little doubt that phenomenal shape he kept himself in allowed him to be a step faster in the 48th minute and beyond. Miller played 18 seasons, 14 at a very high level and was still an above average player in his later thirties. His durability and longevity has allowed him to become the NBA’s all-time leader in three point field goals made in both the regular and post seasons. Five times he led the league in free throw percentage; his 89% career ranks ninth all-time. He ranks top 20 all-time in points, minutes, games, field goals and free throws made. For all his amazing games and memorable shots, his eight points in 11 seconds to shock the Knicks is still the most amazing to me and something we may never see again.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/2917152097_ced7a2f406.jpg
#73 Earl Monroe
Team(s): Baltimore Bullets, New York Knicks
Years Played: 1967-1980
Career Numbers: 18.8 ppg 3.0 rpg 3.9 apg

Black Jesus; The Pearl was the greatest one on one player ever and the most creative player still to ever play the game. Only chronic knee issues and a lack of athleticism kept him from going down as one of the all-time greats and keep him in the bottom third of this list. The 1968 rookie of the year, in his first four seasons with the Bullets he averaged 24 points and 5 assists and developed a reputation for being a dominant one on one scorer. Well on his way if not already established as a star he was traded to the Knicks and began to struggle with knee injuries. When he joined the Knicks in 1971 he proved doubters wrong by playing through the pain, meshing with the established 1970 championship core and helping lead the team back to the top in 1973. Monroe’s athleticism may have limited his body, but his imagination had no end, he brought the spin move, the between the legs dribble, the double pump, the reverse lay-up the spinning lay-up and a host of other moves into the NBA, he invented the windmill, though he couldn’t dunk, he just needed to elude taller defenders.

[L.Kizzle]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The evolution of the two guard is a microcosm of the evolution of basketball, the players have gotten, bigger, stronger, more skilled and flashier as the years have gone on. They are perhaps the most electrifying showman in the game, combining the grace and athleticism of the small forward with the ball handling and perimeter shooting of the point guard. The next four players are four the games greatest showman, they did it in a variety of ways and in a variety of eras and on different stages. Their contributions to game can't bee seen by evaluating their games and their careers only, what these men have done for the dunk, the tall guard, the three point shot and creative ball handling and scoring respectively can be seen in the games of most of today's best young players.


http://www.nba.com/media/nuggets/david_thompson_dunk.jpg
#76 David Thompson
Team(s): Denver Nuggets, Seattle Supersonics
Years Played: 1975-1984
Career Numbers: 22.7 ppg 4.1 rpg 3.3 apg

One of the original high-flyers, the Skywalker David Thompson was one of the five greatest college basketball players ever and followed it up with a great ABA\NBA career that included 2 first team all-NBA selections and five NBA all-star games. Relentless attacking the rim and a ferocious finisher, Thompson would end five seasons as a top five scorer in his league. In his lone ABA season Thompson was rookie of the year, an all-ABA selection and an all-star MVP. He is the only player in the history of the sport to win the MVP of the All-Star game in both leagues further demonstrating his greatness as an entertainer not just an athlete. Over ten combined seasons Thompson averaged nearly 23 points per game, his vertical creative got him credited for inventing the alley-oop a play that is one of today

[Niquesports]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]The evolution of the two guard is a microcosm of the evolution of basketball, the players have gotten, bigger, stronger, more skilled and flashier as the years have gone on. They are perhaps the most electrifying showman in the game, combining the grace and athleticism of the small forward with the ball handling and perimeter shooting of the point guard. The next four players are four the games greatest showman, they did it in a variety of ways and in a variety of eras and on different stages. Their contributions to game can't bee seen by evaluating their games and their careers only, what these men have done for the dunk, the tall guard, the three point shot and creative ball handling and scoring respectively can be seen in the games of most of today's best young players.


http://www.nba.com/media/nuggets/david_thompson_dunk.jpg
#76 David Thompson
Team(s): Denver Nuggets, Seattle Supersonics
Years Played: 1975-1984
Career Numbers: 22.7 ppg 4.1 rpg 3.3 apg

One of the original high-flyers, the Skywalker David Thompson was one of the five greatest college basketball players ever and followed it up with a great ABA\NBA career that included 2 first team all-NBA selections and five NBA all-star games. Relentless attacking the rim and a ferocious finisher, Thompson would end five seasons as a top five scorer in his league. In his lone ABA season Thompson was rookie of the year, an all-ABA selection and an all-star MVP. He is the only player in the history of the sport to win the MVP of the All-Star game in both leagues further demonstrating his greatness as an entertainer not just an athlete. Over ten combined seasons Thompson averaged nearly 23 points per game, his vertical creative got him credited for inventing the alley-oop a play that is one of today

[L.Kizzle]

Now GOAT come on PEarl was a TOP 50 and deserved to be now you have droped him 20 slots I have read you bio on him and to a degree I agree but Im just not feeling your ranking system Cant think of 23 players that can push Preal out of the TOP 50 but I will sit back but Im gonna bring it Reggie Miller over DT I give you a break because top 100 is really hard but Ben over Zo do you remeber Ben with the Bullets he wasnt even a avg C ZO has always been at worst a top 5 C his whole career when healthy.
It did take Ben a while to get started, but he wasn't even supposed to be in the NBA (dude wasn't even drafted.) If he got playing time back then, dude would have been good (could you imagine a 24 yr old Big Ben.) But still Zo > Ben however you put it.

Pearl is low on accolades, ect, but still, I'd take prime Earl over prime Pistol Pete.

[G.O.A.T]

Now GOAT come on PEarl was a TOP 50 and deserved to be now you have droped him 20 slots I have read you bio on him and to a degree I agree but Im just not feeling your ranking system Cant think of 23 players that can push Preal out of the TOP 50 but I will sit back but Im gonna bring it Reggie Miller over DT I give you a break because top 100 is really hard but Ben over Zo do you remeber Ben with the Bullets he wasnt even a avg C ZO has always been at worst a top 5 C his whole career when healthy.

I am as big a fan of Monroe as anyone, and I agree he belonged on the NBA's 50 Greatest List, but this list includes ABA players as well as 12 more years of guys.

Plus upon further review he did make just one all-NBA team.

Most of all I call back to the original post and two things

1) 51-99 Loose order, as you can see I've been listing guys in sets or groups a lot.

2) Personal project - While I try to take an objective view and assemble the 100 best and most important players in the games history each year, it's a personal project and without a personal touch, would it be any fun?

Do you really care if Ben Wallace is one spot above Zo, isn't it more about examining, remembering and celebrating their careers?

McGrady has been a top five wing in the NBA for most of the decade and Ear Monroe's prime was very short like Be Wallace's...Not saying your wrong, just pointing out how difficult it is to evaluate based on any one tset of criteria.

Thanks for following the list and for all your feedback.

[sirkeelma]

The 100th spot on the list is reserved for active players, who while not having full resumes yet, are on their way to cracking the list of the 100 greatest before their time is through. This year there are five such players tied for the 100th spot.





Therefore Lebron and Kobe should be in 90th-100th spot..

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Niquesports]

It did take Ben a while to get started, but he wasn't even supposed to be in the NBA (dude wasn't even drafted.) If he got playing time back then, dude would have been good (could you imagine a 24 yr old Big Ben.) But still Zo > Ben however you put it.

Pearl is low on accolades, ect, but still, I'd take prime Earl over prime Pistol Pete.


I think the Pistons system shows how important chemistry really is in the NBA

BIg Ben was a less than Avg C before he gets there
Rip a really good C with the Bullets/Wizzards gets to D-town and becomes a star
How many times was Billups traded before he gets to D_Town

Sheeed worst than Rodman so childish and inconsistant
Mcdyess great talent but injuries ect....
it goes on
I think if your gonna rate players rate there whole career not a few years Big Ben for the most part of his career was a below avg C that had 4 really good years on a really good team a 00 version of KC Jones

[G.O.A.T]

Pearl is low on accolades, ect, but still, I'd take prime Earl over prime Pistol Pete.

Can't I have both, of what a backcourt!

I probably have Pete way too far ahead of Earl based on their talent and success alone, but Maravich has the accolades to back up where my instincts tell me he belongs. Monroe starts the list 10-15 spots higher then he ends up every year, eventually the lack of accolades makes it too hard to put him above comparable players with greater resumes.

[G.O.A.T]

Therefore Lebron and Kobe should be in 90th-100th spot..

:applause: :applause: :applause:

They were at one point; LeBron as recently as 2006.

However if either of their careers ended today surely they'd be much higher then 90th...no?

[G.O.A.T]

I think the Pistons system shows how important chemistry really is in the NBA

I think if your gonna rate players rate there whole career not a few years Big Ben for the most part of his career was a below avg C that had 4 really good years on a really good team a 00 version of KC Jones

I agree with the chemistry statement, but it takes players with the right mental approach to make it work and maximize their abilities, that's a big part of being a great player.

I get what you're saying but your really selling Ben short. He had six really good years, 5 all-NBA years and 4 defensive MVP awards. KC Jones was never the leagues best defender or the backbone of their team, he was a role player. Ben Wallace was arguably their best player through most of the Pistons run, and the Pistons were the best Eastern conference team in the decade.

[Niquesports]

I am as big a fan of Monroe as anyone, and I agree he belonged on the NBA's 50 Greatest List, but this list includes ABA players as well as 12 more years of guys.

Plus upon further review he did make just one all-NBA team.

Most of all I call back to the original post and two things

1) 51-99 Loose order, as you can see I've been listing guys in sets or groups a lot.

2) Personal project - While I try to take an objective view and assemble the 100 best and most important players in the games history each year, it's a personal project and without a personal touch, would it be any fun?

Do you really care if Ben Wallace is one spot above Zo, isn't it more about examining, remembering and celebrating their careers?

McGrady has been a top five wing in the NBA for most of the decade and Ear Monroe's prime was very short like Be Wallace's...Not saying your wrong, just pointing out how difficult it is to evaluate based on any one tset of criteria.

Thanks for following the list and for all your feedback.


I think you have been very fair and believe me you have taken on a task that will always have question. Like Id take Chet walker ,Bob Love Jammal Wilkins over Bobby Jones but time will tell I think we get to caught up in saying whos No. 80 and who's no. 66 what I really like about you nlist is that you are giving love to players that made this my favorite game. But still GOAT Ben over ZO ?But remeber Im a Bulllets fan he was a garbage man with us and the he goes to the Piston/Bullets team and becomes a All Star so maybe im bias plus Im a big GTown fan so keep up the hard work I wont make this a 2 day debate. PUt you better not have KJ over Pearl ooops..... I hope GP doesnt see this

[G.O.A.T]

I think you have been very fair and believe me you have taken on a task that will always have question. Like Id take Chet walker ,Bob Love Jammal Wilkins over Bobby Jones but time will tell I think we get to caught up in saying whos No. 80 and who's no. 66 what I really like about you nlist is that you are giving love to players that made this my favorite game. But still GOAT Ben over ZO ?But remeber Im a Bulllets fan he was a garbage man with us and the he goes to the Piston/Bullets team and becomes a All Star so maybe im bias plus Im a big GTown fan so keep up the hard work I wont make this a 2 day debate. PUt you better not have KJ over Pearl ooops..... I hope GP doesnt see this

Fair enough, next year I'll switch ZO and Fro just for you.

I happen to be a Pistons fan so if your bias one way, I am certainly the other.

We had Sean Elliot come to Detroit for one year, stink, then go back to SA and be Sean Elliot again, so I know what you mean.

[Niquesports]

I agree with the chemistry statement, but it takes players with the right mental approach to make it work and maximize their abilities, that's a big part of being a great player.

I get what you're saying but your really selling Ben short. He had six really good years, 5 all-NBA years and 4 defensive MVP awards. KC Jones was never the leagues best defender or the backbone of their team, he was a role player. Ben Wallace was arguably their best player through most of the Pistons run, and the Pistons were the best Eastern conference team in the decade.


LEt just agree to disagree youd take Ben over Billups , Rip I have Ben even behind Tayshawn and Sheed if you had to take one player away and they still be effective.as for KC maybe not the best defender he had a team mate that held that honor but getting traded exposed Ben as an undersized no offesive skilled player this is why I go :banghead: when people say DHoward lacks O skills Howard gets 20 a game Ben could not do that in the CIAA

[TheAnchorman]

Your list has been pretty good so far. Besides making my favorite player #95, but then again you said it was in loose order and that you'd probably appreciate him more once he retires. I would like maybe if you put him in that shooting guard set you just recently put, especially once he passes the all-time 3 pt field goals made :D

[Niquesports]

Fair enough, next year I'll switch ZO and Fro just for you.

I happen to be a Pistons fan so if your bias one way, I am certainly the other.

We had Sean Elliot come to Detroit for one year, stink, then go back to SA and be Sean Elliot again, so I know what you mean.


Sounds fair to me one more favor give Phil Chenier some love was for the young guys think of a comparison of Chirs Paul and Tony parker thats how close Walt Frazier and Phil was for a few years

[G.O.A.T]

Your list has been pretty good so far. Besides making my favorite player #95, but then again you said it was in loose order and that you'd probably appreciate him more once he retires. I would like maybe if you put him in that shooting guard set you just recently put, especially once he passes the all-time 3 pt field goals made :D

Thanks, the active players are the hardest ones to rank. Every player goes up on this list when the first retire, I get all nostalgic ans stuff I guess.

If Ray passes Reggie, he'll move up 30-40 spots, if he does that and gets another title top 50 is likely I think.

Thing is, the true sustained superstars are mostly in the top 40 after that it's sort of the best of the rest and it's longevity and being the best at what you do.

[L.Kizzle]

Can't I have both, of what a backcourt!

I probably have Pete way too far ahead of Earl based on their talent and success alone, but Maravich has the accolades to back up where my instincts tell me he belongs. Monroe starts the list 10-15 spots higher then he ends up every year, eventually the lack of accolades makes it too hard to put him above comparable players with greater resumes.
Pete had accolades cause of his name, he only took his team to the playoffs four times, that's less than McGrady. He actually never got out the first round (unless you count that last season he played a few games for the Celtics and made the playoff roster and sat on the bench.) He took his team to the Finals (Bullets.)

Monroe is better than any guard in his era not named Frazier and maybe Tiny. I'd take him over Bing and Pete and Van Lier.

[Niquesports]

Pete had accolades cause of his name, he only took his team to the playoffs four times, that's less than McGrady. He actually never got out the first round (unless you count that last season he played a few games for the Celtics and made the playoff roster and sat on the bench.) He took his team to the Finals (Bullets.)

Monroe is better than any guard in his era not named Frazier and maybe Tiny. I'd take him over Bing and Pete and Van Lier.


This is one of the cases where your system of ranking players should have really loooked at Earl. IF he had stayed with the Bullets his numbers would have been just as impressive if not better than Pistols and on a better team Him and Unseld and later Hayes would have been a dominant team but like BIG Ben( I will drop it after this about Ben:D ) Earl sacrificed his game for the good of the team and did the impossible for you young guys to have a clue of Peal and Frazier its like D Wade and Iverson teaming up to win a title nobody thought it would work.

[G.O.A.T]

Earl sacrificed his game for the good of the team and did the impossible for you young guys to have a clue of Peal and Frazier its like D Wade and Iverson teaming up to win a title nobody thought it would work.

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would lead too. Exactly, no one thought Monroe could blend with a team of established stars and names who were already perennial championship contenders. I like you analogy but I'd change it slightly. Iverson is past his prime now, Monroe wasn't. It's maybe more like Iverson teaming up with Shaq and Kobe in 03-2004 to try and get back to the title and it worked.

In the other forum I am posting this list I have a guy telling me Wallace and Mutombo have to be top 50 because they are the greatest defensive centers besides Hakeem and Russell and have more accolades then Thurmond and Parish and Walton and Unseld etc etc.

I think I'm going to move Monroe up quite a bit next year. I just like him too much and seeing that there are other people who feel the same about his underrated ability. Maybe 45-60 range, like to sneak him in that top 50. Watch the next 5 or so SG's to come up and tell me Nique and L Kizzle how you think Black Jesus stacks up against them.

[Niquesports]

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would lead too. Exactly, no one thought Monroe could blend with a team of established stars and names who were already perennial championship contenders. I like you analogy but I'd change it slightly. Iverson is past his prime now, Monroe wasn't. It's maybe more like Iverson teaming up with Shaq and Kobe in 03-2004 to try and get back to the title and it worked.

In the other forum I am posting this list I have a guy telling me Wallace and Mutombo have to be top 50 because they are the greatest defensive centers besides Hakeem and Russell and have more accolades then Thurmond and Parish and Walton and Unseld etc etc.

I think I'm going to move Monroe up quite a bit next year. I just like him too much and seeing that there are other people who feel the same about his underrated ability. Maybe 45-60 range, like to sneak him in that top 50. Watch the next 5 or so SG's to come up and tell me Nique and L Kizzle how you think Black Jesus stacks up against them.


I think just like Tiny Pearl early in his career can match up with any guard of all time but like He changed his game so much its like night and day I more than sure if Pearl had stayed with the Bullets his numbers accolades ect... would be much greater but for the better he was on one of the greatest teams ever I think he's happy.

[L.Kizzle]

This is the kind of stuff I was hoping this thread would lead too. Exactly, no one thought Monroe could blend with a team of established stars and names who were already perennial championship contenders. I like you analogy but I'd change it slightly. Iverson is past his prime now, Monroe wasn't. It's maybe more like Iverson teaming up with Shaq and Kobe in 03-2004 to try and get back to the title and it worked.

In the other forum I am posting this list I have a guy telling me Wallace and Mutombo have to be top 50 because they are the greatest defensive centers besides Hakeem and Russell and have more accolades then Thurmond and Parish and Walton and Unseld etc etc.

I think I'm going to move Monroe up quite a bit next year. I just like him too much and seeing that there are other people who feel the same about his underrated ability. Maybe 45-60 range, like to sneak him in that top 50. Watch the next 5 or so SG's to come up and tell me Nique and L Kizzle how you think Black Jesus stacks up against them.
I just don't see Dave Bing being higher than Monroe.

[G.O.A.T]

I just don't see Dave Bing being higher than Monroe.

Here's my problem.

Dave Bing played in the same era essentially as Monroe. Has higher career PPG, RPG, APG, played in more all-star games, was selected to more All-NBA teams and won a scoring title which Monroe never did and yet you can't see him being higher.

I can see Monroe being above Bing or Bing being above Monroe. The truth is a good argument could be made for either. So why is it that so many people on here get caught up in arguing mundane details and who is ranked a few spots above who instead of just celebrating their games and their accomplishments.

How come no posts about, "Monroe made a spin move then a reverse spin and hit a twisting double pump lay-up over Bellamy"

or

"Did you ever see Monroe dribble out the clock when he was at Winston Salem, making five guys miss as they frantically tried to take the ball?"

Who cares who is ranked above who that much?

It's a personal list, if it appeased everyone it would be generic and boring. I doubt anyone has spend as much time analyzing the careers and criteria as much as I have anyway. And the worst part is when you present an argument here people dismiss it and present their own as proof they are right. The reality is things are subjective when comparing eras and styles of players, The most talented team does not win the title even a quarter of the time so obviously basketball is about more then statistical or aesthetic value.

[raiderfan19]

I agree with the chemistry statement, but it takes players with the right mental approach to make it work and maximize their abilities, that's a big part of being a great player.

I get what you're saying but your really selling Ben short. He had six really good years, 5 all-NBA years and 4 defensive MVP awards. KC Jones was never the leagues best defender or the backbone of their team, he was a role player. Ben Wallace was arguably their best player through most of the Pistons run, and the Pistons were the best Eastern conference team in the decade.
billups was always better than ben. also sheed was always a better defender than ben. Ben has no business being on this list at all let alone being so far ahead of chris webber.

Actually webber is about 50 spots too low.

[G.O.A.T]

billups was always better than ben. also sheed was always a better defender than ben. Ben has no business being on this list at all let alone being so far ahead of chris webber.

Actually webber is about 50 spots too low.

Never said Billups wasn't better, but he did. He said ben was the key to their title after he was named finals MVP.

You say Rasheed was always a better defender then Ben yet Ben 4 Defensive MVP's and 5 All-SD 1st teams. Wallace not even ever a second team all-D. But yeah that makes sense.

Webber a top 50 is a joke, no one would ever rank him there if they had any clue. Why should Webber be higher?

[L.Kizzle]

Where do you have Pete? To me, he shouldn't even be above T-Mac or they should be very close ...
Good job on the thread.

[raiderfan19]

Never said Billups wasn't better, but he did. He said ben was the key to their title after he was named finals MVP.

You say Rasheed was always a better defender then Ben yet Ben 4 Defensive MVP's and 5 All-SD 1st teams. Wallace not even ever a second team all-D. But yeah that makes sense.

Webber a top 50 is a joke, no one would ever rank him there if they had any clue. Why should Webber be higher?
because until garnett won a title with pierce and allen last year, their careers were very similar and youd get laughed at if you argued garnett wasnt top 50. Im not a webber fan but people have forgotten how awesome he was, especially in those kings years.

[Lebron23]

because until garnett won a title with pierce and allen last year, their careers were very similar and youd get laughed at if you argued garnett wasnt top 50. Im not a webber fan but people have forgotten how awesome he was, especially in those kings years.


Winning Changes Everything.

If Dirk, LeBron, and Nash win an NBA title next year they are going to be rank as top 20 players in History

KG is a top 35 player of all time.