Was Michael Jordan Overrated?

[Mark Jackson]

There is little argument from anyone who actually witnessed Jordan during his 15 year career that he got a favorable whistle throughout. A defender couldn't touch him, breathe on him, or even pass wind in his general direction without getting a foul called. These stats(courtesy of NBA.com) tend to back this statement up. Jordan averaged 8.7 free throws per game during the regular season. That number jumped to 9.9 ft's/game in the playoffs. Out of the 29,277 pts he scored with the Bulls, 6,798 of them came way of the free throw line. That's over 23% of all his points, from the line. In comparison, the all-time scoring leader in NBA history, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, only got 17% of his points from the line.



The Pistons were well aware of this foul discrepancy. Chuck Daly implemented The Jordan Rules in light of this situation. The philosophy behind the Jordan Rules were simple: If the officials were gonna call every little touch foul against MJ, why not touch his face with an elbow? Sounds rough, but the Bad Boys of the late eighties earned their title for good reason. They were physical, some might say dirty. But could they have won any other way? They were facing such legends as MJ, Bird, and Magic. They had no true superstars. They had to fight for everything they got. And this is the style Chuck Daly implemented, and it worked. The Pistons knocked Jordan and the Bulls out of the playoffs THREE straight years from '88-90' on their way to back-to-back championships in '89 and '90.



http://basketball.lifetips.com/tip/149430/basketball-blog/basketball-blog/was-jordan-overrated-part-ii.html

Old, but, was he overrated?

"Momma, there goes that man again"

[gpfanz]

http://basketball.lifetips.com/tip/149430/basketball-blog/basketball-blog/was-jordan-overrated-part-ii.html

Old, but, was he overrated?

"Momma, there goes that man again"

Your thread is :eek:

[dreaming121]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JswfzDKYr04

[dr8ked]

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/mark_jackson_250_080306.jpg

'YOU CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT "

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

*shakes head in disgust*

[Harison]

to OP :violin:

[iDunk]

He was a scrub at best.

His stats were inflated. /endtroll

[guy]

Stupid theories. So Jordan's total points were 23% from free throws, while Kareem's was 17%. So what? Whoever wrote this article clearly didn't look more into it. If he did, he would've realized that Jordan only led the league FTAs once, and that was when he averaged a ridiculous 28 FGAs per game. He would've also realized that the 2nd all-time leading scorer, Karl Malone, was the one that led the league in the FTAs for much of Jordan's career, and his total amount of points were 27% from free throws. Charles Barkley's was also 27% from free throws. Even Clyde Drexler, the most comparable SG to Jordan at the time, was 21% from free throws, which is only 2% below Jordan's, and he wasn't nearly as aggressive of a scorer as Jordan especially in his later years. Maybe more FTs were being taken then in Kareem's era, but it clearly was not an isolated incident like the author of this article is trying to suggest.

[chitownsfinest]

The free throw argument fails horribly. If you look at the ft's made out of total points percentage of top perimeter players since 1980 with the exception of Larry Bird, you will see most have a percentage over 20:
Magic Johnson- 28%
Isiah Thomas- 21%
Clyde Drexler- 21%
Dominque Wilkins- 23%
Grant Hill- 25%
McGrady- 21%
AI- 26%
Kobe- 26%
Bron- 24%
D-Wade- 28%

[HighFlyer23]

The free throw argument fails horribly. If you look at the ft's made out of total points percentage of top perimeter players since 1980 with the exception of Larry Bird, you will see most have a percentage over 20:
Magic Johnson- 28%Isiah Thomas- 21%
Clyde Drexler- 21%
Dominque Wilkins- 23%
Grant Hill- 25%
McGrady- 21%
AI- 26%
Kobe- 26%
Bron- 24%
D-Wade- 28%

:confusedshrug:

[chitownsfinest]

:confusedshrug:
I was surprised when I found this out as well. Magic scored 17707 points in his career and made 4960 free throws in his career. Divide that and you will see that Magic had a 28% rate. One thing you must note though is all the fast breaks Magic ran which resulted in many free throws. Also if you look at his stats, you will notice a fta per game spike in the late 80s when he developed a consistent back to the basket game which also resulted in more free throws. Have to look at his stats from a different perspective.

[DuMa]

I was surprised when I found this out as well. Magic scored 17707 points in his career and made 4960 free throws in his career. Divide that and you will see that Magic had a 28% rate. One thing you must note though is all the fast breaks Magic ran which resulted in many free throws. Also if you look at his stats, you will notice a fta per game spike in the late 80s when he developed a consistent back to the basket game which also resulted in more free throws. Have to look at his stats from a different perspective.
Magic always had a kink for using his size to get his shot up. He thrived on initiating body contact to shield his defender from stealing, blocking or deflecting the ball.

[chitownsfinest]

Magic always had a kink for using his size to get his shot up. He thrived on initiating body contact to shield his defender from stealing, blocking or deflecting the ball.
Which is why he developed the jump hook and a post game. He did get a lot of bs calls while in the post later in his career though.

[andgar923]

I was surprised when I found this out as well. Magic scored 17707 points in his career and made 4960 free throws in his career. Divide that and you will see that Magic had a 28% rate. One thing you must note though is all the fast breaks Magic ran which resulted in many free throws. Also if you look at his stats, you will notice a fta per game spike in the late 80s when he developed a consistent back to the basket game which also resulted in more free throws. Have to look at his stats from a different perspective.

Alot of it has to do with his size advantage.

He was usually guarded by 6'4 point guards or smaller, so obviously he was gonna pick up fouls. And when he was matched up against taller players, he just blew by them which also created ft opportunities.

Also, MJ played inside the 3pt area more, so I'm surprised he didn't get fouls more often.

[gotbacon23]

% of points coming off free-throws for leading PPG scorers in NBA history:

1. michael jordan 30.1 ppg, 22.7% from free throws
2. wilt chamberlian 30.1 ppg, 19.3%
3. lebron james 27.5 ppg, 23.5%
4. elgin baylor 27.4 ppg, 24.9%
5. allen iverson 27.1 ppg, 26.1%
6. jerry west 27.0 ppg, 28.4%
7. bob pettit 26.4 ppg, 29.6%
8. george gerivin 26.2 ppg, 21.9%
9. oscar robertson, 25.7 ppg, 28.8%
10. kobe bryant, 25.1 ppg, 25.6%

so out of the top 10 scorers in nba history (in terms of ppg) only two scored a lower % of their points off of free throws and one of them, wilt, was a HORRIBLE free throw shooter who shot 11.4 free throw attempts per game compared to jordan's 8.2. his % would have been higher had he been a good free throw shooter. whoever wrote that article probably loves crack cocaine.

[guy]

% of points coming off free-throws for leading PPG scorers in NBA history:

1. michael jordan 30.1 ppg, 22.7% from free throws
2. wilt chamberlian 30.1 ppg, 19.3%
3. lebron james 27.5 ppg, 23.5%
4. elgin baylor 27.4 ppg, 24.9%
5. allen iverson 27.1 ppg, 26.1%
6. jerry west 27.0 ppg, 28.4%
7. bob pettit 26.4 ppg, 29.6%
8. george gerivin 26.2 ppg, 21.9%
9. oscar robertson, 25.7 ppg, 28.8%
10. kobe bryant, 25.1 ppg, 25.6%

so out of the top 10 scorers in nba history (in terms of ppg) only two scored a lower % of their points off of free throws and one of them, wilt, was a HORRIBLE free throw shooter who shot 11.4 free throw attempts per game compared to jordan's 8.2. his % would have been higher had he been a good free throw shooter. whoever wrote that article probably loves crack cocaine.

Like I said, the author clearly didn't look more into it. If he did, he would've realized that what Jordan did was the norm, while Kareem only scoring 17% of his point off free throws was what was rare.

[gotbacon23]

Like I said, the author clearly didn't look more into it. If he did, he would've realized that what Jordan did was the norm, while Kareem only scoring 17% of his point off free throws was what was rare.

exactly. and a lot has to do with playing styles. kareem scored on his sky hook a bunch, which is more of an outside shot then a shot a typical center would take in the paint, which decreases the likelihood that he would get fouled. the top 10 CENTERS in nba history in terms of ppg:

1. wilt 30.1 ppg 11.4 FTA/g
2. shaq 24.7 ppg 9.8 FTA/g
3. kareem 24.6 ppg 6.0 FTA/g
4. mikan 23.1 ppg 8.9 FTA/g (ek, top 4 centers ever in ppg were all lakers...)
5. hakeem 21.8 ppg, 6.2 FTA/g
6. tim duncan (counting him as a center) 21.4 ppg 7.3 FTA/g
7. david robinson 21.1 ppg 8.3 FTA/g
8. patrick ewing 21.0 ppg 6.2 FTA/g
9. moses malone 20.6 ppg 8.3 FTA/g
10. dan issel 20.4 ppg 6.6 FTA/g

kareem's FTA is the lowest and the only ones even close to him are olajuwon, ewing, and issel. olajuwon played inside and out- i'm actually surprised his FTA were so low, but i guess he was so good at avoiding contact with his dream shake and things. ewing was a jump shooting center so i'm not surprised by that. i'm not familiar enough with dan issel's game to really comment on that. needless to say, that author was exposed. KAJ's low free throw rate is the product of his style of play. jordan's FTA wasn't even that high to begin with compared to other top scorers and how he played was definitely more conducive to getting to the line.

[G.O.A.T]

This forum needs moderation desperatley

[ronron15]

F......a............i..................l...e...... ..............d?

[NuggetsFan]

:no:

[JustinJDW]

No.

[Fatal9]

Jordan probably is overrated, but the argument you provide is not why.

[Cyclone112]

Jordan probably is overrated, but the argument you provide is not why.

:party:

And there it is ladies and gentleman. Fatal9 has hit 5000 posts of complete garbage without getting banned. A new record for agenda driven trolls. You are an inspiration to BruceBlitz, AlphaWolf, CantStop and so many others. Congratulations Fatal9, you deserve another tribute thread but this will have to do.

[DKLaker]

Michael Jordan was the most overrated player of all time.......Baseball Player that is.:roll:

Basketball = The G.O.A.T :cheers:

[Heilige]

Jordan probably is overrated, but the argument you provide is not why.



How is he overrated? :confusedshrug:

[GiveItToBurrito]

The Kareem comparison is retarded. Kareem was a finesse player who scored most of his points because of an unblockable shot. By the way, he was also a bit overrated as a rebounder; the numbers are nice, but that's mostly because of the tempo he played at. If you wanted to find a modern player who was similar, it would be Jermaine O'Neal, albeit a much more accurate shooter.

And no, Jordan wasn't overrated. He always came up big, and whatever favorable calls he got weren't that out of the ordinary for elite players. His ft rate went up in the playoffs because 1) he took more shots then and 2) teams fouled the **** out of him then. Pretty much every player who's the focal point of an offense takes more free throws in the playoffs unless they're being guarded by Battier.

[Raider007]

Overrated no, Over discussed yes

[kshutts1]

I also agree Jordan is overrated..

Top 5 player of all time? YES
Best player of all time? Perhaps... maybe...
Definite GOAT? Definitely NOT

But most people consider him the GOAT, and are appalled that anyone would argue otherwise. So in that sense, yes... he is overrated.

[RedZiggyZag]

Overrated no, Over discussed yes
Agreed, some people cannot get over him and some people cannot stop dismissing his greatness.

[phoenix18]

Yeah he was overrated.

[lilgodfather1]

He wasn't but now he is vastly.

[iounas]

Hes not overrated..


Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.

[bdreason]

If anything he was underrated by fans / media because a lot of people didn't like him.

[godofgods]

I also agree Jordan is overrated..

Top 5 player of all time? YES
Best player of all time? Perhaps... maybe...
Definite GOAT? Definitely NOT

But most people consider him the GOAT, and are appalled that anyone would argue otherwise. So in that sense, yes... he is overrated.

This. :applause:

[godofgods]

The free throw argument fails horribly. If you look at the ft's made out of total points percentage of top perimeter players since 1980 with the exception of Larry Bird, you will see most have a percentage over 20:
Magic Johnson- 28%
Isiah Thomas- 21%
Clyde Drexler- 21%
Dominque Wilkins- 23%
Grant Hill- 25%
McGrady- 21%
AI- 26%
Kobe- 26%
Bron- 24%
D-Wade- 28%

Is this correct percentages? If so, I lost respect to these players (except for Kobe, who doesn't deserve respect anyway). This just proves that David Stern takes special preference for flashy perimeter players. The greatness of the players listed above therefore takes a hit.

[Dr. Hoopenstein]

Imagine Jordan playing when players couldn't hand check you like in today's game he would have averaged 40 ppg in his prime easily.

[rosonviyavong]

Only lost 2 freaking series in his times in the 90s thats unheard of but I woulda been more impressed if he had a squad that beat Larry Birds prime Celtics

[Lebron23]

Only lost 2 freaking series in his times in the 90s thats unheard of but I woulda been more impressed if he had a squad that beat Larry Birds prime Celtics


Jordan averaged several historical numbers against the Legendary Birds' Celtics, but he couldn't beat them because the Celtics were the more talented team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69vkEcc-zfc

[gotbacon23]

Is this correct percentages? If so, I lost respect to these players (except for Kobe, who doesn't deserve respect anyway). This just proves that David Stern takes special preference for flashy perimeter players. The greatness of the players listed above therefore takes a hit.


you lost respect for players because they have the ability to get to the foul line? players who slash to the basket get fouled more. and you can't blame stern- jerry west scored 28.4% of his points off free throws, oscar robertson 28.8%, elgin baylor 31.9%. all were slasher-types who played well before stern was even involved in the nba, let alone the commish. its the type of players that are more prone to draw fouls because their style of play- not some grand conspiracy.

[Niquesports]

Which is why he developed the jump hook and a post game. He did get a lot of bs calls while in the post later in his career though.


It depends on how you look at the game as to if a call was bs or not in the eyes of a ref calls are made advantage disadvantage no matter how it looks. magic had a very high IQ to get his defender out of postion so any contact is by rule a foul we see Kobe do it Wade Bird was also great at it it looks like bs on tv but its really a great basktball move gets to the line and get a foul on that player.

[Niquesports]

If anything he was underrated by fans / media because a lot of people didn't like him.


I really disagree Jordan fame is that he was so well like unlike Isiah Bird Barkley karl Malone Jordan had just as many no Bulls fans as Bulls fans Isiah could easly be in the discussion of top 10 all time but he was so disliked he doesnt have a chance although most of it was self inflicked

[Wolf Man]

Jordan = MOAT (Most Overrated All Time)



When MJ ''retired'' in 93' the Bulls replaced him with a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and they still won 55 games and nearly made it to the Eastern Conference Finals ! That's how overrated he is

[Bigsmoke]

this thread is so wack.

[Manute for Ever!]

ISH is getting really ridiculous with the ammount of kids here.

Just because people talk about him, doesn't mean they are overrating him, just over-discussing him. Most of that over-discussion begins with insecure Kobe Bryant-obsessed kids who never saw Jordan play but feel a need to diminish his achievements to prop up their idol. I'm looking at you, Wolf Man, Fatal 9, Mark Jackson, Can't Stop, Branslowski, etc, etc.

BTW, Most of the Jordan threads in the last few days were originally started by the haters and contained a lot of false statements.

[BeebCats]

Is this correct percentages? If so, I lost respect to these players (except for Kobe, who doesn't deserve respect anyway). This just proves that David Stern takes special preference for flashy perimeter players. The greatness of the players listed above therefore takes a hit.

You do realize that 20% on FTs is equivalent to 2 FTs per 8 (non FT) points... that's not that ridiculous when you think about these players and their ability to get into the lane. You're telling me these guys can't draw one (2 FT) shooting foul per 8 points they score?

Or even if you're talking 30%, 3 FTs per 7 points... still not THAT ridiculous.

[mlh1981]

Overrated? I thought he had a nice career at Penn U. back in the 90's. Too bad that didn't translate over to the NBA.

[Manute for Ever!]

As I pointed out in after another dumbass Mark Jackson anti-Jordan post in another thread:


If you Kobe trolls didn't mention MJ in a negative way EVERY ****ING POST, people who actually saw him wouldn't feel the need to point out the truth. This then would give him less exposure on ISH and you may not feel as threatened.

What I am trying to say is that it is your own fault that Jordan is over-exposed on ISH. But, he definitely isn't over-rated.

[Mateo]

I thought Michael's speech at the hall-of-fame was classless. He used it as an opportunity to point out how he beat all of his opponents. Thanks Michael, but we saw the games, we know what happened. Remember that this wasn't his night exclusively. It was as much Robinson's night, Stockton's night. Rubbing it in on them, and saying that you're better, is classless. He could have referenced this still and done it in a classy way.

[branslowski]

ISH is getting really ridiculous with the ammount of kids here.

Just because people talk about him, doesn't mean they are overrating him, just over-discussing him. Most of that over-discussion begins with insecure Kobe Bryant-obsessed kids who never saw Jordan play but feel a need to diminish his achievements to prop up their idol. I'm looking at you, Wolf Man, Fatal 9, Mark Jackson, Can't Stop, Branslowski, etc, etc.

BTW, Most of the Jordan threads in the last few days were originally started by the haters and contained a lot of false statements.

:confusedshrug: Can you actually tell me how I discredit Jordan to put Kobe above him??...Me in the same boat as cantstop and Wolf man (guy's I argued with) is not cool....

[andgar923]

If MJ is overrated then so is everybody else.

[Manute for Ever!]

:confusedshrug: Can you actually tell me how I discredit Jordan to put Kobe above him??...Me in the same boat as cantstop and Wolf man (guy's I argued with) is not cool....

Sorry dude, that was going a bit far, i guess...

[DonCorleone]

He is not.

[Walduś]

he is.

[Colby Brian]

6 finals mvps, 5 mvps, 30.1 ppg doesnt sound overrated to me

[comerb]

No

[ballerz]

six rings and totally dominating the 90's overrated?:facepalm

[poido123]

he is.

Replace waldus with Branslowski, and you have your perfect storm of trolling..

As an avid Jordan fan, i also am getting tired of all the Jordan threads, think we are getting beaten to death and sick of the comparisons threads, Jordan one of the best, lets leave it at that...

Over talked about, yes, but certainly not overrated when you consider he is one of the GOAT, that is all.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Underrated

[quick96]

Did you guys know that When MJ joined the Chicago Bulls in 1984 they where a losing team.They remained a losing team for 3 consecutive years. They couldn't even get over .500.. lol PATHETIC!!!

1983 Bulls WITHOUT JORDAN 27-55 Chicago Bulls WITH JORDAN 38-44... A PATHETIC TEAM WITH MICHAEL "SHIRLEY TEMPLE" JORDAN AND WITHOUT MICHAEL "CABAGE PATCH" JORDAN!
1979 LAKERS WITHOUT EARVIN "MAGIC" JOHNSON 47-35. WITH EARVIN
"MAGIC" JOHNSON 60-22. AND THE L.A. LAKERS WIN THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP. WHILE MAGIC WON THE NBA FINALS MVP.

[SkyR#1fanCapCou]

Did you guys know that When MJ joined the Chicago Bulls in 1984 they where a losing team.They remained a losing team for 3 consecutive years. They couldn't even get over .500.. lol PATHETIC!!!

1983 Bulls WITHOUT JORDAN 27-55 Chicago Bulls WITH JORDAN 38-44... A PATHETIC TEAM WITH MICHAEL "SHIRLEY TEMPLE" JORDAN AND WITHOUT MICHAEL "CABAGE PATCH" JORDAN!
1979 LAKERS WITHOUT EARVIN "MAGIC" JOHNSON 47-35. WITH EARVIN
"MAGIC" JOHNSON 60-22. AND THE L.A. LAKERS WIN THE NBA CHAMPIONSHIP. WHILE MAGIC WON THE NBA FINALS MVP.

:wtf: :facepalm:

[SFMF]

what a garbage thread

[prodnus]

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5743/turrible.png

[alenleomessi]

Good to see the OP is banned

[Ne 1]

He's only overrated by people who say he's by far the clear cut, undisputed greatest. Just think it's sad how a lot of people have drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the all-time great players.

[ginobli2311]

He's only overrated by people who say he's by far the clear cut, undisputed greatest. Just think it's sad how a lot of people have drawn this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the all-time great players.

Its because nobody really saw russell or wilt or kareem play in their primes on this board.

jordan vs post 1980 players is clearly the best imo. i have magic really high, but there is just no way in hell i could be convinced he's better than jordan. i've watched a lot of old magic and larry games recently.....and its becoming more and more clear that Jordan was on another level.

then you have guys like hakeem/shaq/duncan......meh....they aren't on jordan's level. then you have guys like kobe/wade/lebron...meh....they aren't on jordan's level.

so its not that people don't value the other greats, its just that a lot of people didn't see them. hell, i really only saw a few years of prime kareem.

i rank guys like russell/kareem/wilt based on research and what other people say that i respect.

but post 1980...i think MJ is clearly the GOAT....and that is what most people are talking about anyway on here.

[quick96]

:wtf: :facepalm:

lol Michael Jordan cream puffs like yourself ignore facts like these:

he had the number one rank team in

college twice and coudn't even get them into the Final 4... HOW PATHETIC!

Michael Jordan = overrated shirley temple

[InspiredLebowski]

Don't bump retarded ****ing threads. Don't bump threads period.