Is Kobe a top 10 GOAT?

[Wuxia]

Yes or No and where would you rank him?

[Tking714]

Yes.

[Toizumi]

This forum has a search function. If you want opinions on this matter, go look there.

[andgar923]

This forum has a search function. If you want opinions on this matter, go look there.

It does? it never seems to work for me.


This might be appropriate to this discussion:


Well The Kobe Bryant we see today is a much better player than Kobe Bryant who was on the Lakers during Shaq's heydays.

Now that Kobe has won this title, people will forget this, and he may very well in the mind of these so called "experts" such as Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy elevated himself to one of the top five players of all time, if not higher.

He now has four titles, and because of his title without Shaq, Shaq's legacy will only diminish and Bryant's will grow as people start to forget who really led the Lakers to those first three titles.

Before I get into the details of why Kobe Bryant's legacy should not be defined by this title, let me answer this one question first.

As I was reading an article about Kobe and Shaq, a question arose in the commentary.

"Why is it that no one questions the validity of the rings won by other stars that played with stars" (Besides Kobe)

The answer I read by, Michael T. Penn, could not have been any better

"I think it is because most great second options aren't hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread like Kobe is. A lot of people love Kobe so much they want to talk about his three championships without evening mentioning Shaquille. That in turn leads others without the rose colored specs on to say 'what? those were Shaq's teams!' That's really all you're looking at here.

It's kind of like if someone were to turn around and say 'Scottie Pippen is the best player ever because he won 6 rings'. Of course the rebuttal would be 'Sorry but Scottie was second banana to Jordan, those were Jordan's teams'. Then someone such as yourself may write an article about how even though Jordan was the man, Scottie was still a star. Like that clears up the issue.

Kobe was of course a great second option on those teams! The problem arises when people try to use those three rings as part of an argument to say Kobe is a better individual player than Lebron James or that he's the greatest player not named Mike or other such over the top declarations of his unstoppableness"

Enjoy what will most def turn into a hell hole.

[JM720]

Yes

[unbreakable]

It was known as the Kobe-Shaq era for a reason, both of them played an integral part in the championships. Whoever wrote that article is on some middle school ish, just like your game Andgar.

[andgar923]

It was known as the Kobe-Shaq era for a reason, both of them played an integral part in the championships. Whoever wrote that article is on some middle school ish, just like your game Andgar.

Uhhh.... yeah... o ka y.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It was known as the Kobe-Shaq era for a reason, both of them played an integral part in the championships. Whoever wrote that article is on some middle school ish, just like your game Andgar.

Both of them were key players, but Pippen was also a key player during the Bulls championships. It doesn't change the fact that both Kobe and Pippen were second fiddles.

And to answer to the question, Kobe is the 10th greatest player of all time and 3rd best post-Jordan behind Shaq and Duncan.

[Lebron23]

Top 10 or Top 11.

[DoGGa]

Yes

[Toizumi]

It does? it never seems to work for me.



Search funtion (http://www.insidehoops.com/search-results.shtml?cx=partner-pub-2183605478677227%3Aur8v6225veu&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kobe+top+10) works.

here's a few threads on the subject (but this 'is he a top 10 thing' can be found in a lot of Kobe discussions):

Kobe Bryant is now officially a top 10 player of all time ... (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135638)

Will Kobe Be Considered Top 10 All Time when he is done playing in the NBA? (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77787&page=4)

Would you say Kobe is a top 10 player, yes or no? (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10593&page=4)

Why Kobe can't even be in the discussion for top 10 all-time or top 4 of the 2000s (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134994&page=4)

[andgar923]

Search funtion (http://www.insidehoops.com/search-results.shtml?cx=partner-pub-2183605478677227%3Aur8v6225veu&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=kobe+top+10) works.

here's a few threads on the subject (but this 'is he a top 10 thing' can be found in a lot of Kobe discussions):

Kobe Bryant is now officially a top 10 player of all time ... (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135638)

Will Kobe Be Considered Top 10 All Time when he is done playing in the NBA? (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77787&page=4)

Would you say Kobe is a top 10 player, yes or no? (www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10593&page=4)

Why Kobe can't even be in the discussion for top 10 all-time or top 4 of the 2000s (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=134994&page=4)

Good looking out..... all this time I honestly never saw that search feature. It was a different one, and I'd get an error message.

This will come in handy!

[Toizumi]

Good looking out..... all this time I honestly never saw that search feature. It was a different one, and I'd get an error message.

This will come in handy!

:cheers:

[Butters]

wow all those threads,but i likes this new one:banana:

He is #11 on my list.

He finishes his career strong i can see him get into the top 5-7.

[momo]

Unique and intriguing topic... It is an all original!

[JustinJDW]

Haha, no.

Sorry guys. Winning just 1 Ring as the #1 Option does not make you Top 10 All-Time.

[shawbryant]

Sure yes

[ShaqAttack3234]

Haha, no.

Sorry guys. Winning just 1 Ring as the #1 Option does not make you Top 10 All-Time.

Well then who is above him? No other legit top 10 candidates that aren't obvious won more than 1 ring as the first option in fact Oscar Robertson won just 1 as a second fiddle and he's one of the stronger top 10 candidates who probably isn't top 10 anymore. Moses Malone won just 1 as the first option same with Jerry West who may have not been the best player on his team that year, Karl Malone, Elgin Baylor and Charles Barkley didn't win titles. Kevin Garnett has just one. David Robinson didn't win as the number 1 guy.

The only guys who re in the discussion aside from the obvious who fits your requirement are Isiah Thomas and George Mikan. Mikan has an argument based on historical significance and dominance of his era, but Isiah? He's great, but you won't find many who think he was a better player than Kobe.

[Juges8932]

Yes.

[Showtime]

There is a top 10 list, and a GOAT list. Kobe just isn't good enough IMO to be on the GOAT list, which doesn't even have 10 players.

[Vernon]

I'd say he's getting close, but no cigar. Like the other poster said, if he can finish his career strong, I say he breaks the Top 10 all-time list, maybe finishes somewhere in the 6-8 range. Kobe's hot right now, and dominating the league minus King James, and just came off a phenomenal season where he won his first true title, but that doesn't solidify a Top 10 slot, just yet.

[ProfessorMurder]

There is a top 10 list, and a GOAT list. Kobe just isn't good enough IMO to be on the GOAT list, which doesn't even have 10 players.

True.



If ranking players all time i.e. '50 greatest', I'd probably have Kobe at 12. He's just not top ten best ever to me. (Even though I hate to admit he's that high on the list.)

[HighFlyer23]

Haha, no.

Sorry guys. Winning just 1 Ring as the #1 Option does not make you Top 10 All-Time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCG0JIorzGI

and yeah, he is top 10

[IInvented]

Yea


/thread

[RedZiggyZag]

He is #10 and he's not going to get any higher.

[Snoop_Cat]

Jordan
KAJ
Wilt
Bird
Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Olajuwon
(in no order)

West/Kobe/Oscar. Take your pick. At best on my list, Kobe will be 9, ahead of Olajuwon. 3 rings as #2,and his whole "improved leadership" thing is so overrated. he was whining like a b*tch until all of a sudden his team is stacked and he's the best leader in the league:rolleyes:

[Richie2k6]

10 pages by midnight.

[KenneBell]

10 sounds good to me. Wouldn't put him any higher.

[beasted86]

No. Top 15 though.

If he can win a back to back championship as the #1 guy, it may propel him there.

[justin43]

I say top 10 because no poster has given me a good reason why Kobe shouldn't be there.

[MeLO MvP 15]

im not a kobe fan but, ive always wonder what if kobe made it to the finals again this year... and lost.... would that tarnish his legacy?

[Killer_Instinct]

Without question. I see him being ranked higher after he retires.

[Killer_Instinct]

im not a kobe fan but, ive always wonder what if kobe made it to the finals again this year... and lost.... would that tarnish his legacy?


Yes, because he'd become the only great player to make it to the Finals and lose.

[MeLO MvP 15]

Yes, because he'd become the only great player to make it to the Finals and lose.

im not trying to hate but how many times has kobe lost in the finals twice right? if he lost a third i would not consider him top 10

[Shep]

no. 15th

[Killer_Instinct]

im not trying to hate but how many times has kobe lost in the finals twice right? if he lost a third i would not consider him top 10


Good call. This means we can all finally remove Magic, Bird, and Kareem from the top 10. And all because your criteria makes it possible.

[KAJ=GOAT]

im not trying to hate but how many times has kobe lost in the finals twice right? if he lost a third i would not consider him top 10


Magic Johnson lost 3 times in the finals.

Hes not top 10 material?


Do you stupid kids think before you type?

Or is the hate that strong?

"what the fvkcs wrong with you, go sit down"


:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

Good call. This means we can all finally remove Magic and Bird from the top 10. And all because your criteria makes it possible.


"you must spread some reputation around before giving it to Killer_Instinct again"

[phoenix18]

Without question. I see him being ranked higher after he retires.
No he wont. You are lying to yourself. How is that even possible? I think we should wait a while. I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.

[RedZiggyZag]

Without question. I see him being ranked higher after he retires.
Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Bird and Magic...

Who will he be ranked higher then....? :rolleyes:

[goldenryan]

right now top 15, when he retires i think he will be a top 10 player.

[Vernon]

Like I said earlier, Kobe is "hot" right now. Coming off an overdue title run where he was "the man." If Kobe had a disappointing season next year, let's say the Lakers make the playoffs as # 3 seed, lose to whoever in the first round, would you guys still say "Top 10! Top 10!" - "/thread" - hellllllllll no. Emotions run high, let's be more logical about this.

[KenneBell]

No he wont. You are lying to yourself. How is that even possible? I think we should wait a while. I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.
Why does everyone deal in absolutes here?

Nothing is set in stone yet.

As for Kobe moving up through the ranks, make a list of Kobe's awards and accomplishments over the past 6 years. It's a pretty good sized list.

[phoenix18]

Why does everyone deal in absolutes here? Is it not possible that he may win another Finals MVP, maybe even two? Is it not possible that he may pass 30,000 points? Is it not possible that he can add to his career accomplisments?

Nothing is set in stone yet.

As for Kobe moving up through the ranks, make a list of Kobe's awards and accomplishments over the past 6 years. It's a pretty good sized list.
Yeah he's moving through the list, but I thought that he considered top ten because of what he has done, not what he can do. If that was the case, Lebron would be number one.

[KenneBell]

Yeah he's moving through the list, but I thought that he considered top ten because of what he has done, not what he can do. If that was the case, Lebron would be number one.
Well, the person you quoted was talking about the future. You said it was basically impossible. And yes, it is possible that LeBron could end up as #1.

[MaxFly]

No he wont. You are lying to yourself. How is that even possible? I think we should wait a while. I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.

Bryant was ranked 75 in 2003?

[phoenix18]

Bryant was ranked 75 in 2003?
Yes.

[MaxFly]

Yes.

This is the first time I've heard of this. Who was 74?

[KenneBell]

The only people you could arguably put above Byrant are West and Oscar. They have better stats but Kobe has more championships and a Finals MVP(as a winner ;)).

[phoenix18]

This is the first time I've heard of this. Who was 74?
I have no damn clue.

[phoenix18]

The only people you could arguably put above Byrant are West and Oscar. They have better stats but Kobe has more championships and a Finals MVP(as a winner ;)).
Okay. Whatever.

[MaxFly]

I have no damn clue.

Can you provide the list you are referencing? I haven't seen a list that had him that low after the three championships. Is it a CNN SI list, or an ESPN list?

[Killer_Instinct]

No he wont. You are lying to yourself. How is that even possible? I think we should wait a while. I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.

4-time NBA champion: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009[11][12][13]
6 NBA Finals appearances: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008, 2009[11][12][13][14][15]
1-time NBA Finals MVP: 2009
1-time NBA Most Valuable Player: 2008[7][16][17]
2-time scoring champion: 2006, 2007[18]
11-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009[9]
11 consecutive appearances (No All-Star game in 1999 due to a league-wide lockout)[9][19]
3-time NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2002, 2007, 2009 (shared with Shaquille O'Neal)[20]
11-time All-NBA selection:
First team: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009[21][22]
Second team: 2000, 2001[21][22]
Third team: 1999, 2005[21][22]
9-time All-Defensive selection:
First team: 2000, 2003, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009[23][24]
Second team: 2001, 2002[23][24]
NBA All-Rookie selection:
Second team: 1997[25][26]
NBA Slam Dunk Contest champion: 1997[27]
NBA regular season leader:
points: 2003 (2,461), 2006 (2,832, 7th in NBA history),[28] 2007 (2,430), 2008 (2,323)[9]
points per game: 2006 (35.4, 8th in NBA history),[29] 2007 (31.6)[9]
field goals attempted: 2006 (2,173), 2007 (1,757), 2008 (1,690)[9]
field goals made: 2003 (868), 2006 (978), 2007 (813)[9]
free throws attempted: 2007 (768)[9]
free throws made: 2006 (696), 2007 (667)[9]
2nd most points in a game: 81 (on January 22, 2006 vs. the Toronto Raptors)[5][6]

[edit] NBA records

[edit] Currently held

Bryant set a Madison Square Garden record with 61 points.Bryant holds nine and shares two NBA records:

Most three-point field goals made, one game: 12 (on January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics; shared with Donyell Marshall)[30]
Most three-point field goals made, one half: 8 (on March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards; shared with 5 other players)[30][31]
Youngest player to score 15,000 points: (27 years, 136 days)[32]
Youngest player to score 18,000 points: (28 years, 156 days)[33]
Youngest player to score 20,000 points: (29 years, 122 days)[34]
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record.[34]
Became one of only three players to reach the milestone under the age of 30. The other two are Chamberlain (29 years, 134 days)[34] and Michael Jordan (29 years, 326 days).[35]
Youngest player to score 23,000 points: (30 years, 171 days)[36]
Surpassed Wilt Chamberlain, the previous holder of the record.[36]
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Rookie Team: (1996–97)[37]
Youngest player to be named to the NBA All-Defensive Team: (1999–00)[37]
Youngest player to start a game: (&0000000000000018.00000018 years, &0000000000000158.000000158 days)[1]
Youngest player to start an All-Star game[37]
Most points scored at Madison Square Garden: 61 (on February 2, 2009 vs. New York Knicks)[38]

Bryant scored 50 points or more in four consecutive games in 2007.Bryant holds or shares numerous Lakers franchise records:

Points
Season: 2,832 (2005–06)[9]
Game: 81 (on January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors)[5][6]
Half: 55 (2nd half, on January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors)[5]
Quarter: 30 (twice, most recently on November 30, 2006 in 3rd quarter vs. Utah Jazz)[5]
Games scoring 60 points or more, career: 5 (present)[38]
Games scoring 50 points or more, career: 24 (present)[38]
Games scoring 50 points or more, season: 10 (2006–07)[1]
Games scoring 40 points or more, career: 96 (present)[41]
Games scoring 40 points or more, season: 27 (2005–06)[42]
Consecutive games of 50 points or more: 4 (March 16–23, 2007)[43]
Consecutive games of 40 points or more: 9 (February 6–23, 2003)[44]
tied with Michael Jordan (1986–87) and behind Wilt Chamberlain (14 consecutive games twice in 1961–62 and 10 consecutive games in 1962–63)[44][45]
Field goals made and attempted
Half: 18 (2nd half, on January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors)[5][46]
Half attempts: 28 (tied with Elgin Baylor; on November 17, 2002 at Boston Celtics)[46]
Half, playoffs: 12 (tied with Elgin Baylor; on April 20, 2003 at Minnesota Timberwolves)[47]
Quarter: 11 (twice, most recently on January 22, 2006 vs. Toronto Raptors)[46]
Quarter attempts, playoffs: 13 (tied with 3 players; on May 13, 2003 at San Antonio Spurs)[47]
Free throws made
Game: 23 (twice, most recently on January 31, 2006 vs. New York Knicks)[46][48]
Game, playoffs: 21 (on May 4, 2008 vs. Utah Jazz)[47][49]
Half: 17 (on January 30, 2001 vs. Cleveland Cavaliers)[46]
Quarter: 14 (on February 27, 2007 vs. Utah Jazz)[46]
Quarter, playoffs: 11 (tied with 3 players; on May 8, 1997 vs. Utah Jazz)[47]
Consecutive: 62 (January 11–22, 2006)[5][46]
Three-point field goals made and attempted
Career: 1,086 (1996–present)[1][46]
Career, playoffs: 177 (1996–present)[50]
Game: 12 (on January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics)[46][51]
Half: 8 (1st half, on March 28, 2003 vs. Washington Wizards)[46][52]
Consecutive: 9 (on January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics)[51]
Career attempts: 3,192 (1996–present)[1][46]
Career attempts, playoffs: 544 (1996–present)[50]
Season attempts: 518 (2005–06)[1][46]
Game attempts: 18 (on January 7, 2003 vs. Seattle SuperSonics)[46][51]
Steals
Half: 6 (tied with 3 players; on February 13, 2006 vs. Utah Jazz)[46]
Quarter, playoffs: 3 (five times, tied with 9 players; most recently on June 15, 2008 vs. Boston Celtics)[47]


1996 Naismith High School Player of the Year[53]
1996 Gatorade Circle of Champions High School Player of the Year[53]
1996 McDonald's High School All-American[53]
1996 USA Today All-USA First Team[53]
USA Today and PARADE's 1996 National High School Player of the Year with a seasonal average of 30.8 points, 12.0 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 4.0 steals and 3.8 blocks per game.[1]
Named Most Outstanding Player at the Beach Ball Classic in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina in his senior year[53]
The all-time leading scorer in Southeastern Pennsylvania school history with 2,883 points[1]
Surpassed Carlin Warley (2,441) and Wilt Chamberlain (2,359)[1][53]
Led Lower Merion High School to a 31–3 record, including 27 straight wins, and the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association (PIAA) Class AAAA state title as a senior. The Aces defeated Erie Cathedral Prep 48–43 to win the gold (1996).[1]
Had his Lower Merion High School number 33 retired in 2002[54]
Became the 27th player to enter the NBA straight from high school (Jermaine O'Neal was the other player to do so in the 1996 NBA Draft)[53]
Won 4 ESPY Awards
2002 Outstanding Team Award (Los Angeles Lakers)[55]
2006 Under Armour Undeniable Performance Award (Kobe Bryant's 81 Points)[55]
2008 Best NBA Player Award (Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles Lakers)[55][56]
2009 Best Team Award (Los Angeles Lakers)[55]
Gold medal with Team USA, 2007 FIBA Americas Championship (Tournament of Americas)[57]
Gold medal with Team USA, 2008 Summer Olympics[57]

[justin43]

Wow, whoever made that list with Kobe #75 in 2003 must have had an agenda.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Okay. Whatever.


I bet the letters O K E B even get you salty.


Face it, he'll end up as a top 10 atg whether you like it or not.

One more championship will easily do it.

Kobe has a song for you.

"you can hate me now, but I won't stop now.


:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

Wow, whoever made that list with Kobe #75 in 2003 must have had an agenda.
I think it was SLAM

[Abraham Lincoln]

Career/Accomplishments wise possibly. But strictly ranking peaks no way.

[phoenix18]

I bet the letters O K E B even get you salty.


Face it, he'll end up as a top 10 atg whether you like it or not.

One more championship will easily do it.

Kobe has a song for you.

"you can hate me now, but I won't stop now.


:hammertime:
I know you cant see this but I really dont care. At all. Just wanted to voice my opinion. Is that okay?

[MaxFly]

I think it was SLAM

Got a link? I'm really interested to see who was ahead of him in 2003.

I mean, this was after the three championships, a few first team selections, a few all star selections and a 30/7/6 season.

[U got Served]

No he's not.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I know you cant see this but I really dont care. At all. Just wanted to voice my opinion. Is that okay?

Why wouldn't I be able to see it?

and, you do care, or else you wouldn't have multiple posts in this thread trying to downplay what Kobe has so far accomplished in his career and why even now, many agree he already is or is very close to being in that top 10.


"quiet confessions, the systems applying the pressure".

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

Why wouldn't I be able to see it?

and, you do care, or else you wouldn't have multiple posts in this thread trying to downplay what Kobe has so far accomplished in his career and why even now, many agree he already is or is very close to being in that top 10.


"quiet confessions, the systems applying the pressure".

:hammertime:
WTF are you talking about??

[KAJ=GOAT]

WTF are you talking about??


See post #58.


"I can't call it, the beats making me fall asleep"


:hammertime:

[andgar923]

No he wont. You are lying to yourself. How is that even possible? I think we should wait a while. I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.
In all honesty, he can win a few more.

And 6 years is more than enough time for a player to climb up that list.


Here's my take.....

I think skills wise, he is top 15
He has the individual accolades

But imo he still leaves much to be desired, and out of the top 25 players (maybe even top 50) he's been one of the dumbest to play. His iQ and leadership abilities compared to the very elite of all time, is very questionable.

There's other individual stats that don't compare to some of the all time greats such as Win Shares, Offensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Offensive Win Shares, Player Efficiency Rating, etc.etc.etc.

His performances in the playoffs and finals have also left much to be desired, when compared to the all time greats. Sure, there's other all time greats that didn't win and others that won with another great player (some as dominant as Shaq), but they didn't lose because THEY failed. Barkley may have lost.... but it wasn't because he didn't perform, Malone and Stockton might've lost.... but it wasn't because they failed to perform and so on and so on.

I also think he's one of the most inconsistent and erratic players in the top 50 list. Sure, there's players in the top 50 (or 25 ) with less impressive stats.... but they were more consistent at their level of play. Kobe on the other hand, has been inconsistent for his entire career and we saw a microcosm of that in the Finals this year. He has a streak of games or quarters where he has a legit case for top 5 contention, but then gets pulled back to reality and sinks. And that's something that's plagued him his entire career and something that's worth considering.

So when we sit back and look at every aspect of Kobe's career in an objective manner, and we look at the accomplishments of other forgotten players that have a very impressive resume in their own right things aren't as clear.

I still think Kobe will climb even as his stats decline and I think he'll win at least 2 more rings which would help break the top 10 when his career is over...... but not yet.

I have him around 15-20 right now..... and stats aside, I wasn't very impressed by his Finals performance (excluding game 1 and half of game 2) this year, I give his Finals performance a 6 outta 10..... only saved by that first game, otherwise it would be much lower.

Go ahead...... let the bashing begin!

[Noob Saibot]

Kobe's top 15. He would have to win 2 more rings as the leader to be well into the top 10.

[phoenix18]

Thats exactly what I was talking about. People ALREADY have Kobe in the top ten. And I am not talking about 9 or ten. I have seen this guy at 6 and seven before on ISH and I dont know why. Thank you Andgar923 for saying what I didnt feel like because in Laker nation, I am already designated as a Kobe hater.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Thats exactly what I was talking about. People ALREADY have Kobe in the top ten. And I am not talking about 9 or ten. I have seen this guy at 6 and seven before on ISH and I dont know why. Thank you Andgar923 for saying what I didnt feel like because in Laker nation, I am already designated as a Kobe hater.


If thats the case, how is Lebron already top 50? Potential? winning 66 games? taking pretend pictures?


Kobe is 4 time champion with the skills and acheivements to back it up. To hear you tell it here, Kobe is just a bench player.

"theres nothing in our way, they bust we bust".

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

If thats the case, how is Lebron already top 50? Potential? winning 66 games? taking pretend pictures?


Kobe is 4 time champion with the skills and acheivements to back it up. To hear you tell it here, Kobe is just a bench player.

"theres nothing in our way, they bust we bust".

:hammertime:
Seriously, stop typing who said Kobe was bench player? Top 50 and top 10 are two different things. Lebron is better than Ray Allen,Dirk,Nash,etc. BTW, I never said that Lebron was in the top 50.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Seriously, stop typing who said Kobe was bench player? Top 50 and top 10 are two different things. Lebron is better than Ray Allen,Dirk,Nash,etc. BTW, I never said that Lebron was in the top 50.


Lebron has done nothing more than any of those players.

What makes him so much better again?

Btw, I never said you in particular, rather in general.

Nor did I say you called Kobe a bench player, only dismissing what hes done at this point of his career as if he was one.

"its sick symphonies, street infamy, the mystery of death"

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

Lebron has done nothing more than any of those players.

What makes him so much better again?

Btw, I never said you in particular, rather in general.

Nor did I say you called Kobe a bench player, only dismissing what hes done at this point of his career as if he was one.

"its sick symphonies, street infamy, the mystery of death"

:hammertime:
I hope you are a gimmick.

[andgar923]

Kobe's top 15. He would have to win 2 more rings as the leader to be well into the top 10.

This is where my stance has somewhat changed recently.

The Kobe fans make a good argument when they point out to other great players that won rings with other great players. I think that's a legit case that can be made.

However......

When we look at the impact that Kobe made overall, compared to Shaq's.... when we look at his impact compared to other all time greats that won with other greats, that's where your argument has more validity.

So I don't see it as black and white anymore, and I don't think its as fair to Kobe in some respects.

BUT

His fans are also reaching a bit as well. And sure..... he came up with big plays in some games, hell.... one can even argue that he was responsible for an entire series. But a series or plays still doesn't warrant him top 10 status, specially when there's been actual 'role players' that have stepped up and won series and games for their teams as well. I mean.... Rondo these past playoffs could be attributed by some as beating the Bulls, are we gonna put rank him higher than Isiah based on that performance? NO

Also.... we know of his NBA Finals career performances so no need to mention those..... he's been really bad in elimination games, again.... something people don't wanna talk about. Sure we can point out to other great players' failures and bad games, but do they stack up to Kobe's? I dunno....seriously.... I don't. At least the top 10?

So I think there's a middle ground that needs to be discussed here.

And why I think he's overrated often, and unappreciated at times (again.... another two sided coin with Kobe... just like his career.)

But he aint no top 10...... not yet at least.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I hope you are a gimmick.


No, but its obvious you are a joke.

So do tell,

what makes Lebron better than those players you listed again?

"oh you make my love come down".

:hammertime:

[Allstar24]

Got a link? I'm really interested to see who was ahead of him in 2003.

I mean, this was after the three championships, a few first team selections, a few all star selections and a 30/7/6 season.
Haha. Don't bother asking for a link man, pretty obvious the dude is lying or he would've posted a link by now. That's just how pathetic these trolls are. And you're right, there's no way Kobe would be ranked that low after 2002.

Most ESPN analysts placed him in their top 10 or 15 lists after last season. That seems about right.

[AirJordan23]

Can you provide the list you are referencing? I haven't seen a list that had him that low after the three championships. Is it a CNN SI list, or an ESPN list?
The list came out in 2003. Here it is. As you can see, Kobe's 59. Not 74. SLAM magazine btw.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady

[Vernon]

I wouldn't define Kobe as "inconsistent" at any time throughout his career. If anything, he's been one of the most consistent players since he entered the league. Yes, it took him some seasons to finally get the monkey off his back after Shaq left town, but that's just part of the game. Stockton and Malone couldn't do it, Kemp and Payton couldn't do it (granted, they were all soul crushed by Jordan and company) but Kobe finally did it. Again, IMO Kobe is close to the Top 10, just not quite there yet. When all is said and done, he should almost be a shoe-in.

[Vernon]

The list came out in 2003. Here it is. As you can see, Kobe's 59. Not 74. SLAM magazine btw.

Owned.

:lol

Some people just toss numbers around, you know how ISH rolls.

[phoenix18]

The list came out in 2003. Here it is. As you can see, Kobe's 59. Not 74. SLAM magazine btw.

1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady
I got it mixed up. My bad. I kept looking for a 100 player list when it was a 75 player list.

[phoenix18]

Owned.

:lol

Some people just toss numbers around, you know how ISH rolls.
Yeah, because I was sooooooooooo way off. It was an honest mistake. I know people are screaming AGENDA AGENDA nope. I havent had one in years. The last time I had one was because the were mandatory in school.

[Vernon]

I got it mixed up. My bad. I kept looking for a 100 player list when it was a 75 player list.

That doesn't make any sense. How could you still have Kobe at # 75 then? You must have been thinking of some "other" list from 2003. There's no way one list from a reputable source will have Kobe at # 56 and one at # 75. No way.

[phoenix18]

Haha. Don't bother asking for a link man, pretty obvious the dude is lying or he would've posted a link by now. That's just how pathetic these trolls are. And you're right, there's no way Kobe would be ranked that low after 2002.

Most ESPN analysts placed him in their top 10 or 15 lists after last season. That seems about right.
:roll: :roll: ESPN??? Dont ever use them as a source. I doubt that half of them even played basketball.

[Vernon]

:roll: :roll: ESPN??? Dont ever use them as a source. I doubt that half of them even played basketball.

ESPN's opinion > your opinion

[phoenix18]

That doesn't make any sense. How could you still have Kobe at # 75 then? You must have been thinking of some "other" list from 2003. There's no way one list from a reputable source will have Kobe at # 56 and one at # 75. No way.
Mistakes usually doesnt make any sense. Thats why they are mistakes.

[phoenix18]

ESPN's opinion > your opinion
Just like when they said the Cavs would be in the finals. Or the Lakers would beat the Celtics. I could go on and on. You are dead wrong.

[Vernon]

Mistakes usually doesnt make any sense. Thats why they are mistakes.

The statement: "mistakes usually doesnt make any sense" doesn't make any sense either. I'm just saying......................

[phoenix18]

The statement: "mistakes usually doesnt make any sense" doesn't make any sense either. I'm just saying......................
nothing. That what you are saying. Can you explain all of your mistakes? I dont think so. You just messed up thats all.

[Vernon]

Just like when they said the Cavs would be in the finals. Or the Lakers would beat the Celtics. I could go on and on. You are dead wrong.

Wait a minute here, you're going to say I'm "dead wrong" in saying ESPN's basketball opinions > your basketball opinions.

:wtf:

You're serious. As an 18 year old kid, we're supposed to believe you have a collectively higher basketball IQ than ESPN collectively?

:violin:

[andgar923]

That doesn't make any sense. How could you still have Kobe at # 75 then? You must have been thinking of some "other" list from 2003. There's no way one list from a reputable source will have Kobe at # 56 and one at # 75. No way.

In all honesty, I don't remember a specific list per se, but I did hear plenty of hype coming from fans and some media people.

I mean... have people forgotten all the "Is he better than Jordan?" talk?

By asking that question one is already hinting at Kobe being at least a top 3.

Cause nobody looks a the 50th ranked player and says... "Is he better than Jordan?" unless they're inferring that he's in the top 5 or 3, let alone top 10.

We had the media constantly bring up the comparisons and many people bought into the hype. While some of us sat back and laughed at it.

There is 'similarities' between the two, but that's all they are.

[Vernon]

nothing. That what you are saying. Can you explain all of your mistakes? I dont think so. You just messed up thats all.

You type like a nine year old. That all I'm saying. Errr - I mean that's all I'm saying.

:D

[justin43]

In this case, I think ESPN is about right. Kobe should range from 10th to 12th all-time depending how much you weight Final MVPs and championships. Personally I see Kobe as tenth all-time. It should only be subjective up to this range, but some like to use personal bias to rank him top 20.:banghead: Yet, they are homers who would put him too high as well.:banghead:

[phoenix18]

Wait a minute here, you're going to say I'm "dead wrong" in saying ESPN's basketball opinions > your basketball opinions.

:wtf:

You're serious. As an 18 year old kid, we're supposed to believe you have a collectively higher basketball IQ than ESPN collectively?

:violin:
Yes. Considering that 80% of the people at ESPN are idiots. Its a well established fact. They were the ones that said Wade was doing enough to be in the MVP consideration. They were the ones that said that Cleveland was going to walk through the East. They are wrong more times than they are right.

[Vernon]

In all honesty, I don't remember a specific list per se, but I did hear plenty of hype coming from fans and some media people.

I mean... have people forgotten all the "Is he better than Jordan?" talk?

By asking that question one is already hinting at Kobe being at least a top 3.

Cause nobody looks a the 50th ranked player and says... "Is he better than Jordan?" unless they're inferring that he's in the top 5 or 3, let alone top 10.

We had the media constantly bring up the comparisons and many people bought into the hype. While some of us sat back and laughed at it.

There is 'similarities' between the two, but that's all they are.

When people asked (and still ask the ? by the way) is Kobe better than Jordan, they were speaking in terms of potential and end of career comparisons. They're doing the same thing with LBJ right now. This is just how the media and fans alike hype players; some of it warranted, some of it not.

[phoenix18]

In this case, I think ESPN is about right. Kobe should range from 10th to 12th all-time depending how much you weight Final MVPs and championships. Personally I see Kobe as tenth all-time. It should only be subjective up to this range, but some like to use personal bias to rank him top 20.:banghead:
:roll: I said he is ten to fifteen. I just wanted to know how some had him at 7?

[phoenix18]

When people asked (and still ask the ? by the way) is Kobe better than Jordan, they were speaking in terms of potential and end of career comparisons. They're doing the same thing with LBJ right now. This is just how the media and fans alike hype players; some of it warranted, some of it not.
They did the same thing with Hill and Mcgrady, how did that work out? My point exactly. The ranking should be on what you have already accomplished. Anyone can argue about blank player having a bright future.

[justin43]

:roll: I said he is ten to fifteen. I just wanted to know how some had him at 7?

I wouldn't be surprised. I am very sure that alpha Wolf has.:roll: Anyway I can see someone arguing West and maybe Oscar over Kobe, but I chose to rank Kobe above due to his number of championships and his finals mvp.

Note: I edited my post after you quoted me acknowledging that some have rank Kobe above 10th all-time.

[Vernon]

Yes. Considering that 80% of the people at ESPN are idiots. Its a well established fact. They were the ones that said Wade was doing enough to be in the MVP consideration. They were the ones that said that Cleveland was going to walk through the East. They are wrong more times than they are right.

ESPN provides opinions and makes predictions. They don't say "bank on it, Cavs win NBA Finals, and if not we shut this whole bitch down!" - pull your head out of your ay double s, ESPN NBA analysts opinions > your opinions. What type of dream world are you living in? Pass whatever it is you're smoking to the left. Puff puff pass. You just puff puff puff puff puff until you start posting on ISH. Congratulations.

:applause:

What I've read from you thus far is very opinionated, with little to nothing to back up your claims, except a list you said existed which ranked Kobe some 20 positions lower (which is a huge disparity when talking top players of all time). At this point, IMO anyway, your opinion on this particular debate is not a very sound one. Maybe you'll prove otherwise in other threads, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[phoenix18]

I wouldn't be surprised. I am very sure that alpha Wolf has.:roll: Anyway I can see someone arguing West and maybe Oscar over Kobe, but I chose to rank Kobe above due to his number of championships and his finals mvp.

Note: I edited my post after you quoted me acknowledging that some have rank Kobe above 10th all-time.
Its cool. But I have seen this guy so high and just didnt want to argue. I would just leave the thread. I have seen him at some SMH spots and just didnt want Cantstop and Alphawolf bothering me.

[Vernon]

They did the same thing with Hill and Mcgrady, how did that work out? My point exactly. The ranking should be on what you have already accomplished. Anyone can argue about blank player having a bright future.

I'm sorry, but Hill and McGrady were never mentioned in the same high plateau fashions as Kobe and now LeBron are mentioned. You're off base there, especially with the Hill argument. At one point in time, T-Mac was thought of as the next truly big superstar in this league, but who honestly talked about McGrady being the next Jordan? Thought so.

[MaxFly]

The list came out in 2003. Here it is. As you can see, Kobe's 59. Not 74. SLAM magazine btw.


Ok, ok... I thought he said he was 75. He was ranked 16 spots ahead of what what indicated...



1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady


Sweet lord... Are you sure this is 2003 list?

[phoenix18]

ESPN provides opinions and makes predictions. They don't say "bank on it, Cavs win NBA Finals, and if not we shut this whole bitch down!" - pull your head out of your ay double s, ESPN NBA analysts opinions > your opinions. What type of dream world are you living in? Pass whatever it is you're smoking to the left. Puff puff pass. You just puff puff puff puff puff until you start posting on ISH. Congratulations.

:applause:

What I've read from you thus far is very opinionated, with little to nothing to back up your claims, except a list you said existed which ranked Kobe some 20 positions higher (which is a huge disparity when talking top players of all time). At this point, IMO anyway, your opinion on this particular debate is not a very sound one. Maybe you'll prove otherwise in other teams, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Opinionated? Stupid I gave you clear cut examples. Dallas-Golden State, I called that. Everyone could see that coming that they had Dallas' number.
Miami winning the Finals, called that. Now I know cant prove those but oh well. The fact is, ESPN not only predicted, but wrote in stone that the Cavs were going to make the Finals. Did that happen? I made one mistake with the list. Does that mean you are perfect? Should I check your every post so that I can see excellence? You must be the second coming of Jesus Christ because you dont even understand mistakes. You got a Facebook? Your so awesome, I wanna be your friend. I am your biggest fan!!!

[Allstar24]

:roll: :roll: ESPN??? Dont ever use them as a source. I doubt that half of them even played basketball.
Oh yeah, we should never use ESPN as a source but you on the other hand, could very well use SLAM magazine's list as if they are a reputable source :oldlol: FYI...Jerry West, Magic, Kareem, Rick Barry and other greats all hold the same opinion as ESPN. You're a nobody and in no position to question these people. That's all.

[phoenix18]

I'm sorry, but Hill and McGrady were never mentioned in the same high plateau fashions as Kobe and now LeBron are mentioned. You're off base there, especially with the Hill argument. At one point in time, T-Mac was thought of as the next truly big superstar in this league, but who honestly talked about McGrady being the next Jordan? Thought so.
Lie. Kobe and Tmac were neck and neck. Stop fooling your self. And hill was considered to be the next great player in the league. You dont know what you are talking about at all.

[Showtime]

I'm sorry, but Hill and McGrady were never mentioned in the same high plateau fashions as Kobe and now LeBron are mentioned. You're off base there, especially with the Hill argument. At one point in time, T-Mac was thought of as the next truly big superstar in this league, but who honestly talked about McGrady being the next Jordan? Thought so.
The phrase was "heir apparent" and cliches like MJ "passing the torch" were used with Hill, Penny, Kobe, etc. The media tried to create that persona from any perimeter player that was considered elite. They just couldn't live without Jordan, so they tried to link Jordan to everybody.

[shadow]

I heard Kobe was so great that they had to rate him higher than 1, so they placed him @ -1 instead.

[gxL]

He is #10 and he's not going to get any higher.
he can only get higher. he has a full career ahead of him

[phoenix18]

Oh yeah, we should never use ESPN as a source but you on the other hand, could very well use SLAM magazine's list as if they are a reputable source :oldlol: FYI...Jerry West, Magic, Kareem, Rick Barry and other greats all hold the same opinion as ESPN. You're a nobody and in no position to question these people. That's all.
The only reason I used that is because I thought that people here agreed with that list. I would have used if it was the other way around. FYI, that was a stupid remark because West and Kareem dont even work at ESPN. Also, I excluded Magic and Barry so what are you talking about? Read.

[MaxFly]

:roll: I said he is ten to fifteen. I just wanted to know how some had him at 7?

Wait... earlier you said...


I cant believe in 6 years someone went from 75 to 10 by winning one out of three finals. I dont get it.

So you're one of those people who think he went from 75 to 10 or 75 to 15?

[justin43]

Ok, ok... I thought he said he was 75. He was ranked 16 spots ahead of what what indicated...


1.Michael Jordan
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Oscar Robertson
4.Bill Russell
5.Magic Johnson
6.Larry Bird
7.Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
8.Jerry West
9.Shaquille O'Neal
10.Julius Erving
11.Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13.Karl Malone
14.Bob Petitt
15.John Havlicek
16.Moses Malone
17.Isiah Thomas
18.John Stockton
19.Charles Barkley
20.Walt Frazier
21.Rick Barry
22.Bob Cousy
23.Elvin Hayes
24.Dave Cowens
25.George Gervin
26.Kevin McHale
27.Dominique Wilkins
28.Patrick Ewing
29.Willis Reed
30.Wes Unseld
31.George Mikan
32.Earl Monroe
33.Nate Thurmond
34.Dolph Schayes
35.Walt Bellamy
36.David Robinson
37.Billy cunningham
38.Paul Arizin
39.Dave DeBusschere
40.Alex English
41.Scottie Pippen
42.Nate Archibald
43.Adrian Dantley
44.Clyde Drexler
45.Bernard King
46.Bob McAdoo
47.Gary Payton
48.Artis Gilmore
49.Jerry Lucas
50.Pete Maravich
51.Hal Greer
52.Reggie Miller
53.Allen Iverson
54.Dan Issel
55.Tim Duncan
56.Robert Parish
57.James Worthy
58.Sam Jones
59.Kobe Bryant
60.Lenny Wilkens
61.Jason Kidd
62.Bob Lanier
63.Dennis Johnson
64.Chris Webber
65.Chris Mullin
66.Mark Aguirre
67.Connie Hawkins
68.Spencer Haywood
69.Dennis Rodman
70.Kevin Garnett
71.Dave Bing
72.Alonzo Mourning
73.Bill Walton
74.Grant Hill
75.Tracy McGrady


Sweet lord... Are you sure this is 2003 list?

Wow, this list is horrible if it is in fact 2003.:violin: Iverson over Duncan?:no: Oscar 3rd?:no:

[Showtime]

he can only get higher. he has a full career ahead of him
Whatever is left of his career, he sure as hell isn't going to get any better. He may rack up more accolades, but we have seen the best of what he can do already. So in that respect, we already know what kind of player he is, what he can do, and how that matches up with the best of the other guys. He may end up with a better career than other guys, but it doesn't mean he is a better player.

[phoenix18]

Wait... earlier you said...



So you're one of those people who think he went from 75 to 10 or 75 to 15?
Didnt I already say I was wrong? Maybe I should put in bold or something.

[Vernon]

Opinionated? Stupid I gave you clear cut examples. Dallas-Golden State, I called that. Everyone could see that coming that they had Dallas' number.
Miami winning the Finals, called that. Now I know cant prove those but oh well. The fact is, ESPN not only predicted, but wrote in stone that the Cavs were going to make the Finals. Did that happen? I made one mistake with the list. Does that mean you are perfect? Should I check your every post so that I can see excellence? You must be the second coming of Jesus Christ because you dont even understand mistakes. You got a Facebook? Your so awesome, I wanna be your friend. I am your biggest fan!!!

Are you OK? You said your opinions are superior to NBA analyst's opinions, yet I'm the stupid one. Why don't you just calm down, buddy. You called something ESPN didn't, wow, I suppose we should roll out the red carpet and put a crown on your noggin, right? Who do you think you are exactly? I never said you're supposed to be perfect, and I never said I'm perfect. I just said your opinion is doo-doo, especially when you start to honestly believe your opinion collectively > ESPN NBA analyst's collectively. You're an 18 year old kid, by default your knowledge is limited. That's not your fault, that's just life. No need to get all defended. You gave your opinion, then I gave you my opinion of your opinion. Deal with such.

[phoenix18]

Are you OK? You said your opinions are superior to NBA analyst's opinions, yet I'm the stupid one. Why don't you just calm down, buddy. You called something ESPN didn't, wow, I suppose we should roll out the red carpet and put a crown on your noggin, right? Who do you think you are exactly? I never said you're supposed to be perfect, and I never said I'm perfect. I just said your opinion is doo-doo, especially when you start to honestly believe your opinion collectively > ESPN NBA analyst's collectively. You're an 18 year old kid, by default your knowledge is limited. That's not your fault, that's just life. No need to get all defended. You gave your opinion, then I gave you my opinion of your opinion. Deal with such.
HA, age determines ability? GTFO.

[Vernon]

Lie. Kobe and Tmac were neck and neck. Stop fooling your self. And hill was considered to be the next great player in the league. You dont know what you are talking about at all.

Show me sources that said T-Mac was the next Jordan. How many do you think we can find that claim Kobe / LeBron were the next Jordans of the NBA? You also mentioned Hill, but now you're backtracking yourself saying Hill was just considered to be the next great player in the league. The debate was players being compared to Jordan's level. You say one thing off emotion, then you think back and try to correct yourself. That's twice you've done this already in this thread. I can only imagine how often you do this day-in / day-out.

[andgar923]

When people asked (and still ask the ? by the way) is Kobe better than Jordan, they were speaking in terms of potential and end of career comparisons. They're doing the same thing with LBJ right now. This is just how the media and fans alike hype players; some of it warranted, some of it not.

I agree... good point.

But I also believe some were ranking him that high at that point, mostly fans tho.

[MaxFly]

Didnt I already say I was wrong? Maybe I should put in bold or something.

Granted you got the exact placement wrong, but the general notion holds true, even if you didn't remember the number. You were wondering how people can have him shooting up so fast, but now you seem to be co-signing the fact that he shot up that fast. In your mind, he was 75. Now you're saying he is maybe 10-15... :confusedshrug:

[Vernon]

HA, age determines ability? GTFO.

By default, yes it does. That's why you have older gentlemen making money as legit analyst who have watched and followed the game for decades while you're steadily on a message board making yourself look like an overconfident brat that in reality has no clue. Wow, news flash guy - you're a nobody, like someone else already said. You're 18 man, sit down take a seat and STFU already.

[Allstar24]

The only reason I used that is because I thought that people here agreed with that list. I would have used if it was the other way around. FYI, that was a stupid remark because West and Kareem dont even work at ESPN. Also, I excluded Magic and Barry so what are you talking about? Read.
What the **** does working for ESPN have to do with anything I said? You completely missed the point of my post, as I expected from someone with your brain capacity.

First you said we shouldn't take ESPN seriously because in your words "half of them don't even play basketball". So I'm saying, fine forget about ESPN. It seems that you judge credibility based on who plays basketball and who doesn't...so look at what the greatest players have said about Kobe in the past. They hold him in the highest regard, in fact I think some of them give him too much praise...ie Jordan stating that Kobe has been the best player in the league since he left, West stating that Kobe is the most skilled Laker ever, etc. Do you really want Alpha Wolf to pull out all those quotes concerning Kobe? So just shut up already, you're getting owned by everyone in this thread.

[MaxFly]

Are you OK? You said your opinions are superior to NBA analyst's opinions, yet I'm the stupid one.

To be honest, I wouldn't take anything ESPN's analysts say as gospel. This year, most analysts had Cleveland beating Orlando in 5 or 6 games in the playoffs. In 08, most analysts had LA beating the Celtics in 5 or 6 games. I'd rather form my own opinions.

http://www.dmjfly.com/basketball/cavsvsmagic.jpg


http://www.dmjfly.com/basketball/celtslakerspicks.jpg

[Vernon]

Granted you got the exact placement wrong, but the general notion holds true, even if you didn't remember the number. You were wondering how people can have him shooting up so fast, but now you seem to be co-signing the fact that he shot up that fast. In your mind, he was 75. Now you're saying he is maybe 10-15... :confusedshrug:

In the 20 or so posts I've read for the guy thus far, this is his (or hers) most noticeable posting flaw. They say one thing, then backtrack to correct themselves. It's bleeding through his posts. Not exactly their fault though, I can remember when I was 18 years old I thought I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof. I will say, I wasn't quite so much the imbecile he is (hey, only fair guy, you called me stupid first, I can resort to the level of an 18 year old and call others names too).

[YAWN]

if kobe leads his team to a title this coming season he will leapfrog many players on the top 10 list. not initially but 10 years from now when people are discussing this he will be touted as better thank duncan, shaq, robertson, hakeem and will be seen on par with magic/bird if not better.

even if he doesn't win anything else of merit he will still be around 7. kind of funny how peoples opinions change over the course of time.

[Vernon]

To be honest, I wouldn't take anything ESPN's analysts say as gospel. This year, most analysts had Cleveland beating Orlando in 5 or 6 games in the playoffs. In 08, most analysts had LA beating the Celtics in 5 or 6 games. I'd rather form my own opinions.

http://www.dmjfly.com/basketball/cavsvsmagic.jpg


http://www.dmjfly.com/basketball/celtslakerspicks.jpg

This past year, Cleveland was the favorite. This was the obvious pick. The Cavs played like crap, lost the series. Congrats to Orlando, still doesn't make the ESPN analysts look like idiots. If the Magic would have beat LA in the Finals, everyone would have been shocked as well. You can't call everything correctly 100% of the time. If we could, what fun would sports be if you always knew the victor?

I'm sorry, but an 18 year old poster at InsideHoops saying their NBA knowledge / opinions collectively > ESPN's collectively is a false statement. Are you saying you think this phoenix18 dude's > ESPN? Jesus Christ, I hope you don't. I'd have to toss you in the same bucket. Almost everyone called Cavs over Magic in the East Finals. Any fan, expert or analyst with any sense of NBA logic would have called the same.

[MaxFly]

In the 20 or so posts I've read for the guy thus far, this is his (or hers) most noticeable posting flaw. They say one thing, then backtrack to correct themselves. It's bleeding through his posts. Not exactly their fault though, I can remember when I was 18 years old I thought I was 10 foot tall and bulletproof. I will say, I wasn't quite so much the imbecile he is (hey, only fair guy, you called me stupid first, I can resort to the level of an 18 year old and call others names too).

Let's see what he says... Perhaps it was a mistake. It does seem like a contradiction though...

[Vernon]

if kobe leads his team to a title this coming season he will leapfrog many players on the top 10 list. not initially but 10 years from now when people are discussing this he will be touted as better thank duncan, shaq, robertson, hakeem and will be seen on par with magic/bird if not better.

even if he doesn't win anything else of merit he will still be around 7. kind of funny how peoples opinions change over the course of time.

This is a post I can agree with, minus the Magic / Bird comment. I think Kobe will finish his career when it's all said and done just a notch or two below those guys.

[RedZiggyZag]

I can only think of 9 players better than Kobe, I can't think of 10 though.

[KAJ=GOAT]

HA, age determines ability? GTFO.

Doesn't determine ability, only what has been seen or experienced.

I'm almost twice your age and have watched twice as much basketball as you have.


"slow your roll"

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

Doesn't determine ability, only what has been seen or experienced.

I'm almost twice your age and have watched twice as much basketball as you have.


"slow your roll"

:hammertime:
Yeah. I guess I am wrong about everything. Sorry for wasting your guys time.

[MaxFly]

This past year, Cleveland was the favorite. This was the obvious pick. The Cavs played like crap, lost the series. Congrats to Orlando, still doesn't make the ESPN analysts look like idiots. If the Magic would have beat LA in the Finals, everyone would have been shocked as well. You can't call everything correctly 100% of the time. If we could, what fun would sports be if you always knew the victor?

I'm sorry, but an 18 year old poster at InsideHoops saying their NBA knowledge / opinions collectively > ESPN's collectively is a false statement. Are you saying you think this phoenix18 dude's > ESPN? Jesus Christ, I hope you don't. I'd have to toss you in the same bucket. Almost everyone called Cavs over Magic in the East Finals. Any fan, expert or analyst with any sense of NBA logic would have called the same.

I guess I don't have a sense of NBA logic. I thought the Magic/Cavs series would be close because of the way the two matched up. The Cavs struggled against good competition last year, including Orlando, and I thought that with their easy road to the Conference Finals, finally meeting a good team in Orlando would pose problems. I think ESPN's analysts overlooked those factors. I certainly don't think it was an easy pick, and many of the posters on this forum also said that they felt the series would have been closer, even if they had the Cavs ultimately winning. I think the analysts looked at how Cleveland swept through the first two rounds, regarded how Orlando struggled against us in the semi-finals, and called it a series.

I'm not saying that Phoenix18 is more knowledgeable than ESPN's analysts, but I wouldn't use ESPN's analysts as a standard of comparison...

[phoenix18]

I guess I don't have a sense of NBA logic. I thought the Magic/Cavs series would be close because of the way the two matched up. The Cavs struggled against good competition last year, including Orlando, and I thought that with their easy road to the Conference Finals, finally meeting a good team in Orlando would pose problems. I think ESPN's analysts overlooked those factors. I certainly don't think it was an easy pick, and many of the posters on this forum also said that they felt the series would have been closer, even if they had the Cavs ultimately winning. I think the analysts looked at how Cleveland swept through the first two rounds, regarded how Orlando struggled against us in the semi-finals, and called it a series.

I'm not saying that Phoenix18 is more knowledgeable than ESPN's analysts, but I wouldn't use ESPN's analysts as a standard of comparison...
Vernon is right. I will never question his knowledge again. After all, we all know I am just an 18 year old kid. What do I know?

[KAJ=GOAT]

This past year, Cleveland was the favorite. This was the obvious pick. The Cavs played like crap, lost the series. Congrats to Orlando, still doesn't make the ESPN analysts look like idiots. If the Magic would have beat LA in the Finals, everyone would have been shocked as well. You can't call everything correctly 100% of the time. If we could, what fun would sports be if you always knew the victor?

I'm sorry, but an 18 year old poster at InsideHoops saying their NBA knowledge / opinions collectively > ESPN's collectively is a false statement. Are you saying you think this phoenix18 dude's > ESPN? Jesus Christ, I hope you don't. I'd have to toss you in the same bucket. Almost everyone called Cavs over Magic in the East Finals. Any fan, expert or analyst with any sense of NBA logic would have called the same.


Actually, that was only the people who made a pick based on hype instead of actual critical analysis and results.

Anyone who had been paying attention in the last few years would have realized the Magic head to head vs Cleveland, were just better. Many who picked Cleveland also forgot who the Cavs played in the first two rounds which made Cleveland look even better than they actually were.


"Mr. Mr. Scarface come walking down the block, out jump the fiend and steals all his rocks"

:hammertime:

[MaxFly]

Vernon is right. I will never question his knowledge again. After all, we all know I am just an 18 year old kid. What do I know?

I don't think it's right to dissuade people from voicing their opinions. You're more than welcome to voice yours on this forum. As long as people can remain civil and fair minded, we should be able to have fruitful discussions. Let's try to do away with the name calling and belligerence.

[Vernon]

Vernon is right. I will never question his knowledge again. After all, we all know I am just an 18 year old kid. What do I know?

Guy, you're being too hard on yourself. You're a bit too sensitive about this. I said you're only 18 years old, that's not your fault. You can't control that. It's just common sense that you solely do not have a better understanding of the NBA than ESPN NBA analysts do. Why would you even claim to have higher knowledge / more valid opinions in the first place? What exactly gives you that ability? I called you an overconfident brat b/c you're acting like one. You're pissing and crying like one too. You need to chill. Listen and read more, post less.

I never said ESPN was the standard, I was simply saying since all this even came into question was 1) that phoenix18 is not a more credible source than ESPN, and 2) I never ESPN was the golden standard.

[phoenix18]

I don't think it's right to dissuade people from voicing their opinions. You're more than welcome to voice yours on this forum. As long as people can remain civil and fair minded, we should be able to have fruitful discussions. Let's try to do away with the name calling and belligerence.
My opinions are wrong. So I will just wait until my perspective changes until I post again.

[Richie2k6]

10 pages by midnight.
lol Make that 10 pages in 4 hours.

[Vernon]

Actually, that was only the people who made a pick based on hype instead of actual critical analysis and results.

Anyone who had been paying attention in the last few years would have realized the Magic head to head vs Cleveland, were just better. Many who picked Cleveland also forgot who the Cavs played in the first two rounds which made Cleveland look even better than they actually were.


"Mr. Mr. Scarface come walking down the block, out jump the fiend and steals all his rocks"

:hammertime:

Cleveland was almost unstoppable this year at home. Cavs had homecourt advantage over Magic. I personally had the Cavs in 6. I thought Cleveland would come out strong and put Orlando down 0-2 early in the series taking both home games. I thought Orlando would rebound winning 2 straight in Orlando, but that Cleveland and company would finish strong the last 2 games of the series taking Magic in Orlando in a close one in game 6. I think that's quite a fair assessment.

On paper, yes Orlando gave Cleveland some match-up issues, and I think SVG is one of the best coaches in the league bar none. Certainly better than Mike Brown. Still, like everyone else I thought LeBron was just "in the zone" and the title was his for the taking. Even if Cavs would have beat Orlando, I would have said Cleveland in 6 or 7 over Lakers (again, falling back on homecourt advantage). I'm not kicking myself thinking "God how could I have not seen the Magic would win this one, I'm a big dummy!"

[phoenix18]

lol Make that 10 pages in 4 hours.
You can thank me later.

[phoenix18]

Cleveland was almost unstoppable this year at home. Cavs had homecourt advantage over Magic. I personally had the Cavs in 6. I thought Cleveland would come out strong and put Orlando down 0-2 early in the series taking both home games. I thought Orlando would rebound winning 2 straight in Orlando, but that Cleveland and company would finish strong the last 2 games of the series taking Magic in Orlando in a close one in game 6. I think that's quite a fair assessment.

On paper, yes Orlando gave Cleveland some match-up issues, and I think SVG is one of the best coaches in the league bar none. Certainly better than Mike Brown. Still, like everyone else I thought LeBron was just "in the zone" and the title was his for the taking. Even if Cavs would have beat Orlando, I would have said Cleveland in 6 or 7 over Lakers (again, falling back on homecourt advantage). I'm not kicking myself thinking "God how could I have not seen the Magic would win this one, I'm a big dummy!"
Can anyone find the prediction thread for this series? and the Game 1 thread?

[KAJ=GOAT]

This is a post I can agree with, minus the Magic / Bird comment. I think Kobe will finish his career when it's all said and done just a notch or two below those guys.




Those guys played with much better surrounding talent than Kobe ever has. Look at how many HOF they both played with in comparison. The best Kobe ever had was Shaq while Magic had Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, and Cooper who was a DPOY. Bird had Parrish, McHale, Walton.


Kobe is just now getting a stacked team like those were. Its only going to help his case. Even at this point, hes the only bona fide HOFer, while finally getting the defensive support he needs.

I think he'll be right on par with both of them at the very least if not surpass them when all is said and done.


"keep on moving, keep on moving don't stop no"

:hammertime:

[Vernon]

My opinions are wrong. So I will just wait until my perspective changes until I post again.

:cry:

Grow up. If you can't take criticism, don't post to others like you possess the right to criticism someone else on their opinions. How old are you again? Sadly, I know 13 year olds more mature than you.

[phoenix18]

Guy, you're being too hard on yourself. You're a bit too sensitive about this. I said you're only 18 years old, that's not your fault. You can't control that. It's just common sense that you solely do not have a better understanding of the NBA than ESPN NBA analysts do. Why would you even claim to have higher knowledge / more valid opinions in the first place? What exactly gives you that ability? I called you an overconfident brat b/c you're acting like one. You're pissing and crying like one too. You need to chill. Listen and read more, post less.

I never said ESPN was the standard, I was simply saying since all this even came into question was 1) that phoenix18 is not a more credible source than ESPN, and 2) I never ESPN was the golden standard.
ahhhh. You dont stop do you? YOU ARE BETTER THAN ME! Does that make you feel perky? Are you excited? Are you hype? Go ahead, high five your buddies while you talk about how you put me in my place. I am not crying. Just waiting for the rain to stop. Thats all. Its just these rainy days, spend a lifetime trying to wash away.

[phoenix18]

:cry:

Grow up. If you can't take criticism, don't post to others like you possess the right to criticism someone else on their opinions. How old are you again? Sadly, I know 13 year olds more mature than you.
Yeah, I admit I am wrong and that means I am crying? If so, can I get a band-aid? I think you bruised my ego.

[AirJordan23]

Ok, ok... I thought he said he was 75. He was ranked 16 spots ahead of what what indicated...





Sweet lord... Are you sure this is 2003 list?
Yup. March 2003 iirc.

[Vernon]

Those guys played with much better surrounding talent than Kobe ever has. Look at how many HOF they both played with in comparison. The best Kobe ever had was Shaq while Magic had Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, and Cooper who was a DPOY. Bird had Parrish, McHale, Walton.


Kobe is just now getting a stacked team like those were. Its only going to help his case. Even at this point, hes the only bona fide HOFer, while finally getting the defensive support he needs.

I think he'll be right on par with both of them at the very least if not surpass them when all is said and done.


"keep on moving, keep on moving don't stop no"

:hammertime:

You could also make the argument Magic and Bird while having all-star rosters also played in the league during a tougher level of overall competition. Same with why Malone / Stockton / Kemp / Payton / Schrempf could never win a title (Jordan era). Barkley played his career during some hellish competition.

I think the league is talented today, yes, but not like it was in years past. It took Kobe how many years now to win this title on his own and get the monkey off his back? Shaq and Kobe in their LA years steamrolled the league, due to lack of talent. Kobe and the Lakers this season were a damn talented team. Most talented team considering KG was not in the playoffs.

[MaxFly]

Cleveland was almost unstoppable this year at home. Cavs had homecourt advantage over Magic. I personally had the Cavs in 6. I thought Cleveland would come out strong and put Orlando down 0-2 early in the series taking both home games. I thought Orlando would rebound winning 2 straight in Orlando, but that Cleveland and company would finish strong the last 2 games of the series taking Magic in Orlando in a close one in game 6. I think that's quite a fair assessment.

On paper, yes Orlando gave Cleveland some match-up issues, and I think SVG is one of the best coaches in the league bar none. Certainly better than Mike Brown. Still, like everyone else I thought LeBron was just "in the zone" and the title was his for the taking. Even if Cavs would have beat Orlando, I would have said Cleveland in 6 or 7 over Lakers (again, falling back on homecourt advantage). I'm not kicking myself thinking "God how could I have not seen the Magic would win this one, I'm a big dummy!"

A number of people realized, correctly as it turned out, that the Magic would fair well in the series if not outright win it... I thought the Magic had a great chance to win. I thought the opposition the Cavs had faced in the first two rounds distorted how good they actually were. It was pretty widely discussed here whether Cleveland was as good as they looked, or whether it was largely the competition they were facing. In all, a number of people took the Cavs... but a number of people also took the Magic.

[MaxFly]

Yup. March 2003 iirc.

That's a terrible list.

[KenneBell]

I wouldn't define Kobe as "inconsistent" at any time throughout his career. If anything, he's been one of the most consistent players since he entered the league. Yes, it took him some seasons to finally get the monkey off his back after Shaq left town, but that's just part of the game.
Agreed. Stats wise he's been consistently around 27/6/5 over the past 10 seasons. Don't know many that could say the same.

Andgar I think was talking game to game but as a body of work, Kobe has been at a high level for a decade now.

[phoenix18]

A number of people realized, correctly as it turned out, that the Magic would fair well in the series if not outright win it... I thought the Magic had a great chance to win. I thought the opposition the Cavs had faced in the first two rounds distorted how good they actually were. It was pretty widely discussed here whether Cleveland was as good as they looked, or whether it was largely the competition they were facing. In all, a number of people took the Cavs... but a number of people also took the Magic.
Like how the Cavs had three home games in a first round sweep?

[Vernon]

ahhhh. You dont stop do you? YOU ARE BETTER THAN ME! Does that make you feel perky? Are you excited? Are you hype? Go ahead, high five your buddies while you talk about how you put me in my place. I am not crying. Just waiting for the rain to stop. Thats all. Its just these rainy days, spend a lifetime trying to wash away.

What the hell dude? When did I say I was better than you, at anything? I was saying your opinions at not > ESPN's like you said they were. I was never trying to "put you in your place" I mean WTF is that all about? You're talking about high fiving buddies and I'm trying to talk sense and basketball. I even tried to help you out by saying it's not you're fault you're only 18 years old at this point. Yes, I called you a crybaby, because quite frankly you're acting like one. Imagine how great this place would be with less crybabies. And people wonder why the main NBA forum here sucks. I rest my case.

[phoenix18]

Agreed. Stats wise he's been consistently around 27/6/5 over the past 10 seasons. Don't know many that could say the same.

Andgar I think was talking game to game but as a body of work, Kobe has been at a high level for a decade now.
He wasnt talking about stats. He was talking about how he is lights on, lights off at any moment.

[phoenix18]

What the hell dude? When did I say I was better than you, at anything? I was saying your opinions at not > ESPN's like you said they were. I was never trying to "put you in your place" I mean WTF is that all about? You're talking about high fiving buddies and I'm trying to talk sense and basketball. I even tried to help you out by saying it's not you're fault you're only 18 years old at this point. Yes, I called you a crybaby, because quite frankly you're acting like one. Imagine how great this place would be with less crybabies. And people wonder why the main NBA forum here sucks. I rest my case.
Its called sarcasm. After two pages of this, I thought you would catch on. Gullible. Really gullible. I thought someone as wise as you would see that.

[Vernon]

Yeah, I admit I am wrong and that means I am crying? If so, can I get a band-aid? I think you bruised my ego.

You can't be serious?

:rolleyes:


Yeah. I guess I am wrong about everything. Sorry for wasting your guys time.

:cry:


Vernon is right. I will never question his knowledge again. After all, we all know I am just an 18 year old kid. What do I know?

:cry:


My opinions are wrong. So I will just wait until my perspective changes until I post again.

:cry:

Your posts proclaim you a bona fide nipple biting where's my ba-ba crybaby. Let's just keep it basketball, and stop being so sensitive and emotionally weak. You're 18, act like it.

[AirJordan23]

That's a terrible list.
They published a new one recently. Think it was top 50 all time this time around.

Here it (http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2009/06/the-new-top-50/) is.

[phoenix18]

You can't be serious?

:rolleyes:



:cry:



:cry:



:cry:

Your posts proclaim you a bona fide nipple biting where's my ba-ba crybaby. Let's just keep it basketball, and stop being so sensitive and emotionally weak. You're 18, act like it.
:roll: :roll: :roll: This is what we do now? Someone says they are sorry and you kick while they're down? Good move man. You are really showing your tact here. I already apologized what do you want? I wonder if anyone else thinks this is mature behavior on your part. If I am a crybaby, and you are succumbing to my level, what does that make you?

[KAJ=GOAT]

You could also make the argument Magic and Bird while having all-star rosters also played in the league during a tougher level of overall competition. Same with why Malone / Stockton / Kemp / Payton / Schrempf could never win a title (Jordan era). Barkley played his career during some hellish competition.

I think the league is talented today, yes, but not like it was in years past. It took Kobe how many years now to win this title on his own and get the monkey off his back? Shaq and Kobe in their LA years steamrolled the league, due to lack of talent. Kobe and the Lakers this season were a damn talented team. Most talented team considering KG was not in the playoffs.


What made it tougher?

One could also argue that Kobe is going up against bigger, faster and stronger athletes.


I think the 80s and 90s get over glorified way too much as a crutch to prop up the players from those generations as basketball gods.

Its not the players fault the league has changed the rules to for the safety of the player.

"Don't give me no bammer weed"


:hammertime:

[Vernon]

Its called sarcasm. After two pages of this, I thought you would catch on. Gullible. Really gullible. I thought someone as wise as you would see that.

Bona fide gullible Yeah, you making post after post screaming that you're butt hurt about all this makes me gullible. You're obviously upset about all this. It's bleeding through your posts. Why don't we just talk basketball, instead of how much we suck and shouldn't post our opinions out of sarcasm. If you talked basketball with less crybaby antics you could be taken more seriously. Your supposed sarcasm is garbage and still screams crybaby nonetheless. Like you said in one of your other posts,

[phoenix18]

[QUOTE=Vernon]Bona fide gullible Yeah, you making post after post screaming that you're butt hurt about all this makes me gullible. You're obviously upset about all this. It's bleeding through your posts. Why don't we just talk basketball, instead of how much we suck and shouldn't post our opinions out of sarcasm. If you talked basketball with less crybaby antics you could be taken more seriously. Your supposed sarcasm is garbage and still screams crybaby nonetheless. Like you said in one of your other posts,

[Vernon]

What made it tougher?

One could also argue that Kobe is going up against bigger, faster and stronger athletes.


I think the 80s and 90s get over glorified way too much as a crutch to prop up the players from those generations as basketball gods.

Its not the players fault the league has changed the rules to for the safety of the player.

"Don't give me no bammer weed"


:hammertime:

Competition was tougher back then (especially mentally) b/c they were not playing in the "no foul league" - guys like LBJ and Kobe get phantom calls, whereas hardly ever get fouls called on them. Today the NBA is driven by money and personal agenda (see Kings being raped of NBA title by Lakers). There's a hell of a lot more politics in today's league. Back then, the NBA was about real basketball.

[phoenix18]

Competition was tougher back then (especially mentally) b/c they were not playing in the "no foul league" - guys like LBJ and Kobe get phantom calls, whereas hardly ever get fouls called on them. Today the NBA is driven by money and personal agenda (see Kings being raped of NBA title by Lakers). There's a hell of a lot more politics in today's league. Back then, the NBA was about real basketball.
I agree with that. Basketball wasnt that bad until recently where you couldnt breathe on a star or else they would be headed to the line. Like Wade in the Finals.

[Vernon]

:oldlol: :cheers: I really have to hand it you. You follow me real well. I dont know whats up with me man. Never been butt hurt. Not really upset. Confused, not upset. Its actually trash day in neighborhood so I will leave my sarcasm on the driveway instead. Gotta bag it first though!

I apologize if it seems I was a bit rough around the edges with you. I guess that "my opinions > ESPN's" kind of threw me off. You seem like a cool guy when you actually post with respect and less non-backed criticism.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Competition was tougher back then (especially mentally) b/c they were not playing in the "no foul league" - guys like LBJ and Kobe get phantom calls, whereas hardly ever get fouls called on them. Today the NBA is driven by money and personal agenda (see Kings being raped of NBA title by Lakers). There's a hell of a lot more politics in today's league. Back then, the NBA was about real basketball.


I completely and respectfully disagree.

As I said before, I don't think its the players fault about the rule changes. Players today are no doubt just as tough.


"you don't work you don't eat, need I say more?"


:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

I apologize if it seems I was a bit rough around the edges with you. I guess that "my opinions > ESPN's" kind of threw me off. You seem like a cool guy when you actually post with respect and less non-backed criticism.
:roll: :cheers: I know. I am just sporadic. I have like 6 different personalities or something. I just switch in and out.

[phoenix18]

I completely and respectfully disagree.

As I said before, I don't think its the players fault about the rule changes. Players today are no doubt just as tough.


"you don't work you don't eat, need I say more?"


:hammertime:
How could you disagree with what Vernon said? That doesnt make sense.

[Vernon]

Hey phoenix18 what does rep mean?

[KAJ=GOAT]

How could you disagree with what Vernon said? That doesnt make sense.


How can you judge the mental toughness of todays players without ever seeing them play that style of ball?

I can guarantee they grew up playing some crazy hard ball at the playgrounds before they ever turned pro or went to college.

Its not the star players fault they get sissified calls.


"money ain't everything but neither is brokeness"

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

Hey phoenix18 what does rep mean?
Rep is that green block you have at the bottom. It doesnt really mean anything except to show appreciation for something another poster did.

[phoenix18]

How can you judge the mental toughness of todays players without ever seeing them play that style of ball?

I can guarantee they grew up playing some crazy hard ball at the playgrounds before they ever turned pro or went to college.

Its not the star players fault they get sissified calls.


"money ain't everything but neither is brokeness"

:hammertime:
Lebron?? Do you remember Brendon Haywood? He's trying to hurt me!!!
The game was tougher then. Now people are crying after a scrape. Some people are tough but most are not.

[lpublic_enemyl]

yea stick to the questions:no:

[beau_boy04]

No he is not! but definitely a top 20

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Oscar Robertson
10.Julius Erving

[KAJ=GOAT]

Lebron?? Do you remember Brendon Haywood? He's trying to hurt me!!!
The game was tougher then. Now people are crying after a scrape. Some people are tough but most are not.


I never knew one player represented an entire league.


"son, you bore me with your war stories"

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

I never knew one player represented an entire league.


"son, you bore me with your war stories"

:hammertime:
Isnt he the face of the NBA?

[Bigsmoke]

No he is not! but definitely a top 20

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Oscar Robertson
10.Julius Erving

i'll put Kobe over Julius Erving

[Vernon]

Rep is that green block you have at the bottom. It doesnt really mean anything except to show appreciation for something another poster did.

Oh OK, cool. Thanks!

[KAJ=GOAT]

Isnt he the face of the NBA?


Ok, playtime is over.

You can go have a snack now.


"you know the drill".

:hammertime:

[purple32gold]

i'll put Kobe over Julius Erving
yea same here. i guess im a little biased, but i really feel kobe won't ever be truly appreciated until he retires. once his greatest hits dvds come out and people can actually sit back and oooohhh and ahhhh without dealing with their own stupid political issues with the league then i feel they'll understand that he seriously is one of the greatest players to ever touch a ball. top 10 def. i would NOT put him top 5 at all though. the only way he would get that in my mind is if he played until he was 37/38 or won 3 or 4 more titles, and who knows if either one of those are going to happen (as much as i really hope they do lol)

[gxL]

Whatever is left of his career, he sure as hell isn't going to get any better. He may rack up more accolades, but we have seen the best of what he can do already. So in that respect, we already know what kind of player he is, what he can do, and how that matches up with the best of the other guys. He may end up with a better career than other guys, but it doesn't mean he is a better player.
Greatness is measured by career,accomplishments and dominance. Hell kobe is a top 3 offensive player of all time

[Jacks3]

Kobe is definitely in the top 10.lol at people putting West/Oscar/Erving over him.:oldlol:

[Maniak]

Nope.

Hes in the 12-20 range.

[tedloc]

no answer (boycott)

come on folks... seriously another one?

hey, can someone start a lebron or a jordan goat thread?
i haven't seen one of those before

[glidedrxlr22]

Jacks3=biased tool

[Killer_Instinct]

No he is not! but definitely a top 20

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Bill Russell
9. Oscar Robertson
10.Julius Erving


Your should go download a virus to your cpu for that.

[Doranku]

I love when people just dismiss Kobe's first three championships because he was a second option.

How many other second options posted 29/7/6 numbers during an entire postseason? Hell, how many first options have put up those kind of numbers?

[purple32gold]

I love when people just dismiss Kobe's first three championships because he was a second option.

How many other second options posted 29/7/6 numbers during an entire postseason? Hell, how many first options have put up those kind of numbers?
troof. even as a laker fanatic i wouldn't put him in the top 10 as of right now. 5-6 years from now when he is on his overall basketball decline (not just athletic) i do think he will be a top ten candidate. but as of now....top 15 at least. its a stacked list man but he'll eventually make some room :)

[32jazz]

Kobe is definitely in the top 10.lol at people putting West/Oscar/Erving over him.:oldlol:

It is beyond silly to even debate with these people anymore. Especially suggesting that West is better than Kobe when West conceded that battle years ago.:oldlol:


Most of these posters are too young to remember West at all let alone him going 1-8 in the NBA Finals & having a lesser resume than Kobe(Stats were inflated due to pace in the 60's)

Magic(My GOAT) actually lost 4 NBA Finals ,but I see few people trashing him or West like they do Kobe for losing twice.

It's the same few guys & their emotion driven opinions of Kobe.

[dyna]

Top 10 or Top 11.
:cheers:

[riseagainst]

i'll put Kobe over Julius Erving


Originally Posted by Lebron23
Top 10 or Top 11.

Date: 2009

Kobe already number 10 after 2009. Back 2 back = top 7-8.
The lebron fans have spoken. :bowdown:

[Calabis]

Yes...stupid to think otherwise

[AlphaWolf24]

easily top 5 - 7 (no denying that...top 5 if you understand basketball....#6 or #7 if you can't recognize game)



deal wit it

PS: since 90% of the people here never watched basketball before 1996....there opinion is worthless.

I have been watching hoop since Magic and Bird entered the league....only 1 person has been a better player then Kobe over the past 30 years.

I never watched live ... Wilt /Russell/ Kareem (Bucs and first few years in LA)...but IMO Kobe is a better player then limited centers.

[blablabla]

i'm a kobe fan and i have him at #7

[KG215]

Date: 2009

Kobe already number 10 after 2009. Back 2 back = top 7-8.
The lebron fans have spoken. :bowdown:

Yes, because that one person represents every LeBron fan.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bbbbut I thought Kobe magically moved up a couple of spots this offseason is what RRR3 told me :confusedshrug:

Guess that Kobe was already top 10 in '09. :oldlol:

[funnystuff]

easily top 5 - 7 (no denying that...top 5 if you understand basketball....#6 or #7 if you can't recognize game)



deal wit it

PS: since 90% of the people here never watched basketball before 1996....there opinion is worthless.

I have been watching hoop since Magic and Bird entered the league....only 1 person has been a better player then Kobe over the past 30 years.

I never watched live ... Wilt /Russell/ Kareem (Bucs and first few years in LA)...but IMO Kobe is a better player then limited centers.
They see him trollin..

[RRR3]

Bbbbut I thought Kobe magically moved up a couple of spots this offseason is what RRR3 told me :confusedshrug:

Guess that Kobe was already top 10 in '09. :oldlol:
Hey dumbass, you and your Mamba boys are the ones trying to move Kobe up to top 5 or even higher :facepalm
I could care less where he's ranked on an arbitrary list it's all subjective.

[riseagainst]

Hey dumbass, you and your Mamba boys are the ones trying to move Kobe up to top 5 or even higher :facepalm
I could care less where he's ranked on an arbitrary list it's all subjective.

I think Deuce and I have kobe between 6-8. Never have i seen Deuce say Kobe is top 5.

[RRR3]

I think Deuce and I have kobe between 6-8. Never have i seen Deuce say Kobe is top 5.
He has Kobe over Wilt.

Nuff said.

[riseagainst]

He has Kobe over Wilt.

Nuff said.

he has like 7 people other over Wilt. He Has George Mikan over Wilt. His placing of Wilt has nothing to do with Kobe, why are you directly comparing the two?

[Deuce Bigalow]

He has Kobe over Wilt.

Nuff said.
Like I've said a lot of times already...post their accomplishments
I also have Bird, Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem (won 2 rings with way less help) ahead of Wilt too. Accomplished more and were better Playoff perfromers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

he has like 7 people other over Wilt. He Has George Mikan over Wilt. His placing of Wilt has nothing to do with Kobe, why are you directly comparing the two?
No, Mikan was a joke for jlauber :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

No, Mikan was a joke for jlauber :oldlol:

:lol