Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain

[Lebron23]

Who was the better playoffs performer?

:oldlol: :lol :lol

[Bigsmoke]

Wilt was REALLY ahead of my time (born in 1988) but by watching MJ's performances imma have to say him.

[Lebron23]

Wilt was REALLY ahead of my time but (born in 1988) by watching MJ's performances imma have to say him.


Wilt struggled in the playoffs. That's why many people regarded Michael Jordan as the greatest player of all time because he's a much better playoffs and Finals performer than Mr. Chamberlain.

[BrilliantLegacy]

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6080/wiltchamberlain725158.jpg

[crisoner]

OK...if its playoffs you can go to stats etc but that still won't show the God's honest truth. I mean who on these boards was watching B-ball back then.

Old School on these boards is the 80's era...h3ll half the posters on these boards where just born when Jordan was a rookie.

So to have a fair argument like this will never be possible....on these boards that is.

[L.Kizzle]

Wilt struggled in the playoffs. That's why many people regarded Michael Jordan as the greatest player of all time because he's a much better playoffs and Finals performer than Mr. Chamberlain.
Wilt didn't struggle in the playoffs.

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan Playoffs Stats

33.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.9 bpg, 49 FG% (41.8 mpg)

His Regular Season Stats

30.1 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 5.3 apg, 2.3 spg, 0.8 bpg, (38.3 mpg)

Wilt Chamberlain Playoffs Stats

22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, ( 47.2 mpg)

His Regular Season Stats

30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, (45.8 ppg)

6 NBA titles >>> 2 NBA titles ( 6x Finals MVP >>> 2x NBA Finals MVP)

Wilt was a great regular season performer, but he was never as good as Jordan in the playoffs.

I don't want to use stats because the numbers in the 1960's were slightly inflated, and Wilt played more minutes than Air Jordan.

[Lebron23]

Wilt didn't struggle in the playoffs.

His numbers went down in the playoffs.

[Lebron23]

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6080/wiltchamberlain725158.jpg


I'd take Jordan, Kareem, Bird, and Magic Johnson over Wilt Chamberlain.

[Papaya Petee]

Everyone in the world except Abe Lincoln agrees that Jordan>>>>Wilt.

[Lebron23]

Yet this equals struggle? For in 1962, Chamberlain was one mere possession away from ultimately winning the championship. For proper perspective, this be like Jordan & the 1987 Bulls defeating the 1987 Lakers. Or perhaps Bryant with the 2006 Lakers defeating the 2008 Celtics. Or LeBron with the 2004 Cavs defeating the 1986 Celtics.

Nobody has impacted the game for 48 minutes on offense, defense, and on the glass as Chamberlain did in 1966-67. Nobody.


But Michael Jordan's First 3 NBA titles was a far much better accomplishment because he defeated several stacked teams in the early 1990's.

[Abraham Lincoln]

But Michael Jordan's First 3 NBA titles was a far much better accomplishment because he defeated stacked teams in the early 1990's.
He never faced the mighty Boston Celtics with Russell & Red. In 1967, they needed Hannum to outcoach Russell, & Chamberlain to outplay him. Both at once. For one can imagine had Chamberlain not been so stubborn and prideful, he would have won 6 or more championships. Chamberlain was always on cruise control, and never gave his all, for if he let his emotions get the best of him in an altercation, he would kill them, intentionally or not. A proper and marvelous NBA career be the preferable option over a career ending manslaughter charge.

[Papaya Petee]

He never faced the mighty Boston Celtics with Russell & Red. They needed Hannum to outcoach Russell, & Chamberlain to outplay him in 1967. For one can imagine had Chamberlain not been so stubborn and prideful, he would have won 6 or more championships. Chamberlain was always on cruise control, and never gave his all, for if he let his emotions get the best of him in an altercation, he would kill them, intentionally or not. A proper and marvelous NBA career be the preferable option over a manslaughter charge.


Just quit already

[Niquesports]

Yet this equals struggle? For in 1962, Chamberlain was one mere possession away from ultimately winning the championship. For proper perspective, this be like Jordan & the 1987 Bulls defeating the 1987 Lakers. Or perhaps Bryant with the 2006 Lakers defeating the 2008 Celtics. Or LeBron with the 2004 Cavs defeating the 1986 Celtics.

Nobody has impacted the game for 48 minutes on offense, defense, and on the glass as Chamberlain did in 1966-67. Nobody.


Jordan wins but default he didnt have a equal
WIlt had Russ
Magic had Bird
Jordan played at a time where he was so far ahead of his peers that he was flawless. He came at a perfect time Magic Bird were gone isiah was past his peak and Nike Espn ect.... pumped Mike up for me its like whos better Ali who fought the very best and won or Lennox lewis who beat a rack of Bums but like Jordan he looked great doing it.

[BrilliantLegacy]

Just quit already
I'm sure he has never seen Wilt play before and he is making up this garbage.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan wins but default he didnt have a equal
WIlt had Russ
Magic had Bird
Jordan played at a time where he was so far ahead of his peers that he was flawless. He came at a perfect time Magic Bird were gone isiah was past his peak and Nike Espn ect.... pumped Mike up for me its like whos better Ali who fought the very best and won or Lennox lewis who beat a rack of Bums but like Jordan he looked great doing it.
:cheers:

Not to say Jordan does not match up with the others, but the idea that there haven't been any great players prior is horrible. For the pre-1980 NBA is so deeply disrespected by so many easy time basketball fans.

[Lebron23]

He never faced the mighty Boston Celtics with Russell. For one can imagine had Chamberlain not been so stubborn and prideful, he would have won 6 or more championships. Chamberlain was always on cruise control, and never gave his all, for if he let his emotions get the best of him in an altercation, he would kill them, intentionally or not. A proper and marvelous NBA career be the preferable option over a manslaughter charge.


Jordan's Victims in the NBA Finals


1991- Magic Johnson and the Los Angeles Lakers ( Magic was still an elite player in 1991)
1992 - Clyde Drexler and the Portland Trailblazers ( Drexler was 2nd in MVP Voting)
1993 - Charles Barkley and the Phoenix Suns ( 1993 NBA MVP, and Suns won 62 games)

1996 - Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp ( Sonics won 64 games in 1996)
1997 - Karl Malone and John Stockton - ( League MVP, and the NBA All time leader in Assists and steals)
1998 = see 1997 NBA Season.

[Lebron23]

On offense, defense, & on both backboards, nobody has done it better than Chamberlain. He may not have the most storied career, but was the top player of all time at his peak.


Jordan was also a great offensive player, and he's probably a top 5 defender in NBA History.

I like you as a poster Mr. Lincoln, but Jordan had a better NBA Career than Chamberlain.

[Niquesports]

Jordan's Victims in the NBA Finals


1991- Magic Johnson and the Los Angeles Lakers ( Magic was still an elite player in 1991)
1992 - Clyde Drexler and the Portland Trailblazers ( Drexler was 2nd in MVP Voting)
1993 - Charles Barkley and the Phoenix Suns ( 1993 NBA MVP, and Suns won 62 games)

1996 - Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp ( Sonics won 64 games in 1996)
1997 - Karl Malone and John Stockton - ( League MVP, and the NBA All time leader in Assists and steals)
1998 = see 1997 NBA Season.

Not one of the teams Jordan beat would be ranked in the top 20 All TIme This isnt a knock on JOrdan he played the team that he had to but he never faced a team that was an equal like Russ did with WIlt and Magic did with Bird

[chitownsfinest]

Jordan wins but default he didnt have a equal
WIlt had Russ
Magic had Bird
Jordan played at a time where he was so far ahead of his peers that he was flawless. He came at a perfect time Magic Bird were gone isiah was past his peak and Nike Espn ect.... pumped Mike up for me its like whos better Ali who fought the very best and won or Lennox lewis who beat a rack of Bums but like Jordan he looked great doing it.
MJ did have Hakeem, Shaq, Barkely, Malone, Stockton, GP, Ewing, Robinson, and Drexler to rival him though and rose above all of them. None of them except maybe Hakeem and Shaq were on Russel's and Bird's level but dominating all of them over an 8 year period is still not an easy task by any means. MJ still beat a mvp caliber Magic and did beat Isiah once so he shouldn't be penalized for not being able to beat them. MJ was going to eventually start winning titles once his cast improved regardless of era.

[Lebron23]

Not one of the teams Jordan beat would be ranked in the top 20 All TIme This isnt a knock on JOrdan he played the team that he had to but he never faced a team that was an equal like Russ did with WIlt and Magic did with Bird


I always felt that if Jordan had a better supporting casts in the 1980's he would have beaten Bird's Celtics because Jordan was a much better scorer in the 1980's.

[kingchessking]

Michael Jordon over Wilt "the Stilt" Chamberlain
Wilt was a Monster Player, but Jordon is the winner here. Jordon won 6 championship over Wilt's two. Yes, Wilt had to face the Bill Russell and the Celtics, but Jordon faced triple teams basically every night (the so called Jordon Rule). Yes, you can argue that they didn't have to face Bill Russell's team which was the best at the time. But Jordon made his team into the best team of that era, and whose to say MJ's team can't beat the 60's Celtics the game had evolved a lot when it got to Jordon's time. Accomplishment wise Jordon over Wilt.
Jordon Didn't face chumps to win his championships: - Magic Johnson (Hall of famer), Cylde Drexler (Hall of Famer), Charles barkley (Hall of Famer), Gary Payton (9 times all-nba defensive team, 9 time all star, defensice player of the year), Stockon and Malone (Hall of Famers soon lol)
No one in their right mind would consider these guys chummps, if you do then you must not have watched or played basketball. Scoring isn't everything, Jordon scored and defended, and if he was 4-6 inches taller he would've rebounded as well.
(no knock against wilt, he's still one of the best player to ever play the game)

[branslowski]

Jordan....And this sh!t isn't even debatable...

Only thing learned in this thread is that Abe is a f*cking Wilt Chamberlin apologist....I swear to god he has every Chamberlin excuse saved on his computer word pad....Isn't this the same sh!t "Kobe stans do"?....Ignore facts and use excuses?....

Abe still trying to mislead the young lads of the land..:ohwell:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan was also a great offensive player, and he's probably a top 5 defender in NBA History.

I like you as a poster Mr. Lincoln, but Jordan had a better NBA Career than Chamberlain.
Yes, Chamberlain does not have the best career, but was the top player at his peak.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan's Victims in the NBA Finals


1991- Magic Johnson and the Los Angeles Lakers ( Magic was still an elite player in 1991)
1992 - Clyde Drexler and the Portland Trailblazers ( Drexler was 2nd in MVP Voting)
1993 - Charles Barkley and the Phoenix Suns ( 1993 NBA MVP, and Suns won 62 games)

1996 - Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp ( Sonics won 64 games in 1996)
1997 - Karl Malone and John Stockton - ( League MVP, and the NBA All time leader in Assists and steals)
1998 = see 1997 NBA Season.Tis all well and nice, but one is attempting to perpetrate the myth that Chamberlain was a playoff choke artist, when in fact this was far from the case. For there were several game 7's that were lost by a point or two. Now if Chamberlain had the killer instinct of Jordan or Russell, the 1960's would have been very different historically. But he didn't, & this shan't be confused with the likes of a choker. Playoff basketball requires 5 men playing in harmony. No one man can win a championship alone in the playoffs, whether it be the NBA or a middle school league.

[Lebron23]

Tis all well and nice, but one is attempting to perpetrate the myth that Chamberlain was a playoff choke artist, when in fact this was far from the case. For there were several game 7's that were lost by a point or two. Now if Chamberlain had the killer instinct of Jordan or Russell, the 1960's would have been very different historically. But he didn't, & this shan't be confused with the likes of a choker. Playoff basketball requires 5 men playing in harmony. No one man can win a championship alone in the playoffs, whether it be the NBA or a middle school league.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan....And this sh!t isn't even debatable...

Only thing learned in this thread is that Abe is a f*cking Wilt Chamberlin apologist....I swear to god he has every Chamberlin excuse saved on his computer word pad....Isn't this the same sh!t "Kobe stans do"?....Ignore facts and use excuses?....

Abe still trying to mislead the young lads of the land..:ohwell:
Yes besides the fact that I have the proper information and do not self pose as a brutally abused psychological victim of mental & verbal hate to my ideal professional basketball player.

The true fact is Chamberlain has had the most dominant peak in the history of professional basketball. Combined with the killer instinct of Russell and he would be as highly regarded as Jordan is today. He'd have at least half of the rings Russell stole from him. Tis a shame, for Russell was a very clever man psychologically. And Chamberlain, was affected by all kinds of nonsense from the press and from a friendship with Russell. Regrettably, he allowed this to dictate his play to a huge extent.

Chamberlain's two weaknesses were as follows:

1. Foul shooting
2. He was too nice on the court & too sensitve to critics

[BrilliantLegacy]

Jordan....And this sh!t isn't even debatable...

Only thing learned in this thread is that Abe is a f*cking Wilt Chamberlin apologist....I swear to god he has every Chamberlin excuse saved on his computer word pad....Isn't this the same sh!t "Kobe stans do"?....Ignore facts and use excuses?....

Abe still trying to mislead the young lads of the land..:ohwell:
He probably has never seen Wilt play in his life. Only those low quality videos from Youtube and riding on his **** like he's the God of basketball.

[Psileas]

As a playoff performer, Jordan ranks over Wilt, but the difference isn't as great as perceived by some. For all his productivity decrease in the playoffs, Wilt still stands as one of the greatest playoff performers ever. It's just the fact that his regular season numbers are so outworldly that makes his playoff stats look more pedestrian. But on the end of the day, we have a guy who still averaged 23/25/4 on 52% FG, countless blocked shots and top-notch defense, despite facing defensive monsters Russell and/or Thurmond in 10 of his 13 post-seasons. And mind that his scoring numbers and his PER, which greatly correlates with scoring, are negatively affected by the fact that he played twice as many games during his "low-scoring" period (hell, he still led the playoffs in PER 6 times). As for his playoff chokes and underperformances, honestly they don't outnumber the ones of other great playoff performers like Bird or Shaq. However, his own ones, partially due to the fact that the "good guy" Russell was winning all the rings in the 60's were much more hyped.

When it comes to the 10 greatest NBA playoff performers, Wilt easily makes the list. Overall, it should look approximately like this:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
West
Russell
Bird
Duncan
Pettit (this guy is underrated, period)/Kobe/Baylor

[Niquesports]

As a playoff performer, Jordan ranks over Wilt, but the difference isn't as great as perceived by some. For all his productivity decrease in the playoffs, Wilt still stands as one of the greatest playoff performers ever. It's just the fact that his regular season numbers are so outworldly that makes his playoff stats look more pedestrian. But on the end of the day, we have a guy who still averaged 23/25/4 on 52% FG, countless blocked shots and top-notch defense, despite facing defensive monsters Russell and/or Thurmond in 10 of his 13 post-seasons. And mind that his scoring numbers and his PER, which greatly correlates with scoring, are negatively affected by the fact that he played twice as many games during his "low-scoring" period (hell, he still led the playoffs in PER 6 times). As for his playoff chokes and underperformances, honestly they don't outnumber the ones of other great playoff performers like Bird or Shaq. However, his own ones, partially due to the fact that the "good guy" Russell was winning all the rings in the 60's were much more hyped.

When it comes to the 10 greatest NBA playoff performers, Wilt easily makes the list. Overall, it should look approximately like this:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
West
Russell
Bird
Duncan
Pettit (this guy is underrated, period)/Kobe/Baylor

I can agree with this list and dont really have any problem with the order with a few exceptions.

Jordan never faced an equal rival his best opponent Malone,Barkley ect.. are a step below the Birds and Isiah Piston Magic had to face and the Great Celtics Wilt had to face not to mention the teams Jabbar faced.I give it a pass but just wonder how Jordan would have faired agaisnt Great teams in there prime.

[branslowski]

Yes besides the fact that I have the proper information and do not self pose as a brutally abused psychological victim of mental & verbal hate to my ideal professional basketball player.

The true fact is Chamberlain has had the most dominant peak in the history of professional basketball. Combined with the killer instinct of Russell and he would be as highly regarded as Jordan is today. He'd have at least half of the rings Russell stole from him. Tis a shame, for Russell was a very clever man psychologically. And Chamberlain, was affected by all kinds of nonsense from the press and from a friendship with Russell. Regrettably, he allowed this to dictate his play to a huge extent.

Chamberlain's two weaknesses were as follows:

1. Foul shooting
2. He was too nice on the court & too sensitve to critics

Hear me out here Abe...Im not denying the fact that Wilt is one of the greatest to ever do it...But once you need excuses for a guy to try and make it even out with the clear factual basis that Jordan is the greater player, you already lose. When someone show's you a fact that Jordan has 6 Finals MVP's and Championships and you respond with something like.."Wilt would have 6 but, but, if, if"....It is an auto loss.

This is the same thing you and others jumped on Kobe stans about...If someone say's Kobe struggled in 04' due to his court issue's and thats why he didn't win...Responce from Kobe haters or other ppl..."Haha, excuse, apologist"....If some Kobe stan say's Kobe lost in 08' because Gasol and Odom was b!tched inside the paint, so it's not on Kobe or something...Responce..."Haha, excuse maker, apologist".

My view on Kobe's shortcomings?...04'- He f*ckin lost us the Finals by not passing the ball to Shaq while acting like a selfish little b!tch...08- He f*cking Choked in the key games we needed him to show his greatness, he played like garbage in every game but 1...He and his team lost, Period.

You just have to accept the FACT that Jordan>>>>Wilt...And move on...How can you not see that once you have to start making excuses to defend your reasoning for Wilt not winning...and then creating an opinionated hypothecal of what you think Wilt would have accomplished, screams out Wilt Stan, apologist.

This is the last time Im going to do this to you...Because I don't want to change your opinion on who you think is the GOAT...To each its own, and I wont knock that....Me>>>You...Admit it. I do this to alot of folks...

[Psileas]

I can agree with this list and dont really have any problem with the order with a few exceptions.

Jordan never faced an equal rival his best opponent Malone,Barkley ect.. are a step below the Birds and Isiah Piston Magic had to face and the Great Celtics Wilt had to face not to mention the teams Jabbar faced.I give it a pass but just wonder how Jordan would have faired agaisnt Great teams in there prime.

Everything has to be taken into account when ranking the GOAT's, so yes, certain things that we'll never know can be debated. After all, I'm among these who believe that there's no clear-cut GOAT and that, considering whole NBA careers and impact to the game, Wilt has as good a case as anyone, while Kareem may have the greatest basketball career in general (all levels considered). One thing is for sure: Whoever you may think is the GOAT, he is still not perfect and unrivaled. I know you get this, but I also know a lot don't.

[Niquesports]

Hear me out here Abe...Im not denying the fact that Wilt is one of the greatest to ever do it...But once you need excuses for a guy to try and make it even out with the clear factual basis that Jordan is the greater player, you already lose. When someone show's you a fact that Jordan has 6 Finals MVP's and Championships and you respond with something like.."Wilt would have 6 but, but, if, if"....It is an auto loss.

This is the same thing you and others jumped on Kobe stans about...If someone say's Kobe struggled in 04' due to his court issue's and thats why he didn't win...Responce from Kobe haters or other ppl..."Haha, excuse, apologist"....If some Kobe stan say's Kobe lost in 08' because Gasol and Odom was b!tched inside the paint, so it's not on Kobe or something...Responce..."Haha, excuse maker, apologist".

My view on Kobe's shortcomings?...04'- He f*ckin lost us the Finals by not passing the ball to Shaq while acting like a selfish little b!tch...08- He f*cking Choked in the key games we needed him to show his greatness, he played like garbage in every game but 1...He and his team lost, Period.

You just have to accept the FACT that Jordan>>>>Wilt...And move on...How can you not see that once you have to start making excuses to defend your reasoning for Wilt not winning...and then creating an opinionated hypothecal of what you think Wilt would have accomplished, screams out Wilt Stan, apologist.

This is the last time Im going to do this to you...Because I don't want to change your opinion on who you think is the GOAT...To each its own, and I wont knock that....Me>>>You...Admit it. I do this to alot of folks...


Well with that being Said does that make Russell the Goat

[Niquesports]

Everything has to be taken into account when ranking the GOAT's, so yes, certain things that we'll never know can be debated. After all, I'm among these who believe that there's no clear-cut GOAT and that, considering whole NBA careers and impact to the game, Wilt has as good a case as anyone, while Kareem may have the greatest basketball career in general (all levels considered). One thing is for sure: Whoever you may think is the GOAT, he is still not perfect and unrivaled. I know you get this, but I also know a lot don't.


Not trying to sound like an mad old man but what many of these young guys just dont get is that respect is earned not given. Every NBA player can run jump and shoot. The guys that are special are the ones that there peers respect. As great as Barkley was he doesnt get the respect that others get because many believe he never gave 100% to reach his max same with Shaq Kareem even had that knock for a while many felt he was just to laid back and emotionless. Kobe I think just got it this year that there is no I in team and for him to win he needed Gasol Odom Fisher ect.... Jordan learned this when helped to mature Pippen. My point is simple mmany have out scored,outrebounded and looked more flashy but there has never been an NBA player with the leadership that Bill Russell had

[G.O.A.T]

Nice discussion here, and honestly Abe really good stuff out of you. You're a whiz and I agree with a lot of what you say about the Stilt, especially that his lack of a killer instinct impeded his chances on winning numerous titles and begin remembered as the greatest player ever. More on that briefly, but first some perspective on just how significant Chamberlains statistical exploits were.

Wilt's dominance is quite simply unparalleled in professional sport. To put it into context, Wilt's 50ppg scoring average during the 60-61 season is the statistical equivalent to.

MLB: Bonds 72 home run record being shatted by someone who hits 96.

or

NFL: Eric Dickerson's record 2100 rushing yard season eclipsed by a 2800 yard performance.

or

NHL: Gretzky's 215 points in 1986 beign annihilated by a young stud who puts up 287 points in a single season.

This sort of dominance is almost unbelievable. And Wilt was this dominant, or very close, for all of his physical prime. He had no contemporary close to his size and skill level. He was graceful, powerful, dynamic, unstoppable. He was as literally as possible a Giant amongst Men.

So Basketball was never a huge challenge for Wilt and perhaps like the oldest cousin who takes it easy on his younger kin in a pick-up game Wilt never felt compelled to give it his all every play. Not that he made a conscious effort to go easy on folks, but the psychological edge that Russell always had was never present in the dipper.

And as we've learned over the history of sports, if you do not have the killer instinct, it can't be taught.

The Bulls of the 1990's were rarely if ever the best team on paper. But they were close and they had Michael Jordan who unlike anyone else since Russell (save maybe Tiger Woods) had the indomitable will that just refused to accept anything less then victory. The won 72 games with MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and eight other guys who were fringe NBA players most of the time. Only Kukoc and arguably Pippen were in their physical primes during that run also.

Wilt and Jordan are the too most aesthetically dominant players in the most aesthetic sport there is. Their greatness has served as a role model for players of the eras that followed their dominance. We've constantly searched for and prematurely anointed the next Chamberlain or the next Jordan. And though others greats have came and went and records set have fallen, these two endure with a legacy of spectacular individual brilliance that inspires anyone and everyone who plays the game.

[Niquesports]

Nice discussion here, and honestly Abe really good stuff out of you. You're a whiz and I agree with a lot of what you say about the Stilt, especially that his lack of a killer instinct impeded his chances on winning numerous titles and begin remembered as the greatest player ever. More on that briefly, but first some perspective on just how significant Chamberlains statistical exploits were.

Wilt's dominance is quite simply unparalleled in professional sport. To put it into context, Wilt's 50ppg scoring average during the 60-61 season is the statistical equivalent to.

MLB: Bonds 72 home run record being shatted by someone who hits 96.

or

NFL: Eric Dickerson's record 2100 rushing yard season eclipsed by a 2800 yard performance.

or

NHL: Gretzky's 215 points in 1986 beign annihilated by a young stud who puts up 287 points in a single season.

This sort of dominance is almost unbelievable. And Wilt was this dominant, or very close, for all of his physical prime. He had no contemporary close to his size and skill level. He was graceful, powerful, dynamic, unstoppable. He was as literally as possible a Giant amongst Men.

So Basketball was never a huge challenge for Wilt and perhaps like the oldest cousin who takes it easy on his younger kin in a pick-up game Wilt never felt compelled to give it his all every play. Not that he made a conscious effort to go easy on folks, but the psychological edge that Russell always had was never present in the dipper.

And as we've learned over the history of sports, if you do not have the killer instinct, it can't be taught.

The Bulls of the 1990's were rarely if ever the best team on paper. But they were close and they had Michael Jordan who unlike anyone else since Russell (save maybe Tiger Woods) had the indomitable will that just refused to accept anything less then victory. The won 72 games with MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and eight other guys who were fringe NBA players most of the time. Only Kukoc and arguably Pippen were in their physical primes during that run also.

Wilt and Jordan are the too most aesthetically dominant players in the most aesthetic sport there is. Their greatness has served as a role model for players of the eras that followed their dominance. We've constantly searched for and prematurely anointed the next Chamberlain or the next Jordan. And though others greats have came and went and records set have fallen, these two endure with a legacy of spectacular individual brilliance that inspires anyone and everyone who plays the game.


:applause:

Im bout to cry someone making sence on ISh I thought Id never see it.

[Da_Realist]

Nice discussion here, and honestly Abe really good stuff out of you. You're a whiz and I agree with a lot of what you say about the Stilt, especially that his lack of a killer instinct impeded his chances on winning numerous titles and begin remembered as the greatest player ever. More on that briefly, but first some perspective on just how significant Chamberlains statistical exploits were.

Wilt's dominance is quite simply unparalleled in professional sport. To put it into context, Wilt's 50ppg scoring average during the 60-61 season is the statistical equivalent to.

MLB: Bonds 72 home run record being shatted by someone who hits 96.

or

NFL: Eric Dickerson's record 2100 rushing yard season eclipsed by a 2800 yard performance.

or

NHL: Gretzky's 215 points in 1986 beign annihilated by a young stud who puts up 287 points in a single season.

This sort of dominance is almost unbelievable. And Wilt was this dominant, or very close, for all of his physical prime. He had no contemporary close to his size and skill level. He was graceful, powerful, dynamic, unstoppable. He was as literally as possible a Giant amongst Men.

So Basketball was never a huge challenge for Wilt and perhaps like the oldest cousin who takes it easy on his younger kin in a pick-up game Wilt never felt compelled to give it his all every play. Not that he made a conscious effort to go easy on folks, but the psychological edge that Russell always had was never present in the dipper.

And as we've learned over the history of sports, if you do not have the killer instinct, it can't be taught.

The Bulls of the 1990's were rarely if ever the best team on paper. But they were close and they had Michael Jordan who unlike anyone else since Russell (save maybe Tiger Woods) had the indomitable will that just refused to accept anything less then victory. The won 72 games with MJ, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc and eight other guys who were fringe NBA players most of the time. Only Kukoc and arguably Pippen were in their physical primes during that run also.

Wilt and Jordan are the too most aesthetically dominant players in the most aesthetic sport there is. Their greatness has served as a role model for players of the eras that followed their dominance. We've constantly searched for and prematurely anointed the next Chamberlain or the next Jordan. And though others greats have came and went and records set have fallen, these two endure with a legacy of spectacular individual brilliance that inspires anyone and everyone who plays the game.

This is a great read. Good job.

[Duncan21formvp]

Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals. Jordan never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series and no player ever averaged more than MJ in any playoff series.

[IInvented]

Michael Jordan = Greatest Playoff Performer Ever


/thread

[CB4GOATPF]

As a playoff performer, Jordan ranks over Wilt, but the difference isn't as great as perceived by some. For all his productivity decrease in the playoffs, Wilt still stands as one of the greatest playoff performers ever. It's just the fact that his regular season numbers are so outworldly that makes his playoff stats look more pedestrian. But on the end of the day, we have a guy who still averaged 23/25/4 on 52% FG, countless blocked shots and top-notch defense, despite facing defensive monsters Russell and/or Thurmond in 10 of his 13 post-seasons. And mind that his scoring numbers and his PER, which greatly correlates with scoring, are negatively affected by the fact that he played twice as many games during his "low-scoring" period (hell, he still led the playoffs in PER 6 times). As for his playoff chokes and underperformances, honestly they don't outnumber the ones of other great playoff performers like Bird or Shaq. However, his own ones, partially due to the fact that the "good guy" Russell was winning all the rings in the 60's were much more hyped.

When it comes to the 10 greatest NBA playoff performers, Wilt easily makes the list. Overall, it should look approximately like this:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Wilt
West
Russell
Bird
Duncan
Pettit (this guy is underrated, period)/Kobe/Baylor

Great Play-Off Performers?

No Hakeem?
No Barkley? ...:oldlol: :rolleyes:

[CB4GOATPF]

I can agree with this list and dont really have any problem with the order with a few exceptions.

Jordan never faced an equal rival his best opponent Malone,Barkley ect.. are a step below the Birds and Isiah Piston Magic had to face and the Great Celtics Wilt had to face not to mention the teams Jabbar faced.I give it a pass but just wonder how Jordan would have faired agaisnt Great teams in there prime.

Malone was a notch below Bird slightly its not like its a large margin :no:

Barkley is no way below Bird interms of Impact, actually the Superior Plaeyer in those terms...he did not play with McHale, Parish, Maxweel, DJ, Walton etc...which totally makes your job alot easier...

[IInvented]

:roll:

are y'all seriously writting paragraphs about this shit

[Fatal9]

What separates Wilt/Jordan as playoff performers seems to be that one of them could have an awful series individually and still win because of the team around them (sweeping top teams with Jordan shooting 30-something per cent...what other stars had this luxury, especially at a time when the NBA weakened considerably?).

Tough call but there are several players I'd take before both of them.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What separates Wilt/Jordan as playoff performers seems to be that one of them could have an awful series individually and still win because of the team around them (sweeping top teams with Jordan shooting 30-something per cent...what other stars had this luxury, especially at a time when the NBA weakened considerably?).

Tough call but there are several players I'd take before both of them.

LMAO @ both of your statements. :oldlol:

PS - Jordan never shot below 40% in any playoff series, and only shot 42% or less in a few series in his career (literally 3 iirc). Not sure where 30-something percent comes from.

[Lebron23]

Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals. Jordan never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series and no player ever averaged more than MJ in any playoff series.


Michael Jordan = God of basketball.

No NBA player today will ever surpass his playoffs scoring record.

[Fatal9]

LMAO @ both of your statements. :oldlol:

PS - Jordan never shot below 41% in any playoff series, and only shot 42% or less in a few series in his career (literally 3 iirc). Not sure where 30-something percent comes from.
40% vs. Knicks (3/18 in game when facing 0-3 deficit!). 38.6% vs. Heat.

[T-Low]

They are 2 opposite positions mind you. 2 different eras. How can you judge? Numbers? Not gonna happen...Like someone said earlier, 3/4 of this board wasn't even alive when wilt played....

[OldSchoolBBall]

40% vs. Knicks (3/18 in game when facing 0-3 deficit!). 38.6% vs. Heat.

Wow, so I was off by one series. :oldlol: LMAO @ you constantly citing the 3 (relatively) poor series Jordan's had in his entire career. :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

Michael Jordan is the greatest performer in NBA Playoffs history.

[IInvented]

Michael Jordan is the greatest performer in NBA Playoffs history.
why create this thread then:confusedshrug:

[Lebron23]

why create this thread then:confusedshrug:


Cause Honest Abe and Psileas said that Chamberlain is the greatest player in NBA History.

[Psileas]

Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals. Jordan never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series and no player ever averaged more than MJ in any playoff series.

Wilt didn't average 11.7 ppg in the Finals. He averaged 11.7 ppg in a Finals series (on few attempts-admittedly, Russell did a good job), along with 25.0 rpg and a lot of blocked shots (he was credited with at least a dozen in game 1 alone). Russell used to average such numbers and win.

Jordan actually was outscored by Terry Cummings in his first playoff series.

Also, similarly, Wilt was outrebounded in only one playoff series and, during his high scoring years, he was outscored in zero.


Great Play-Off Performers?

No Hakeem?
No Barkley? ...

I forgot Hakeem. He's up there in the top-10. Barkley? Give him a honorable mention, but between comparable playoff performers, you have to pick first the guys who reached the Finals multiple times.

[Psileas]

Cause Honest Abe and Psileas said that Chamberlain is the greatest player in NBA History.

Thanks for having me in your mind when writing the topic, but for me the "greatest playoff performer" thing is a subcategory of the "greatest player". Other subcategories include "regular season performance", "impact to the game and its rules", "level of competition", etc.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Why do we keep giving these 50s and 60s players any respect is beyond me. Did you see how garbage Wilt was in the early 70s when real competitiion started happening. Wilt was 7ft tall he didn't even need skill and he still couldn't dominate in his later years. 11 ppg in a playoff series GTFO.

MJ w/o any athletism left uses his brains and basketball skills to drop 51 points on Baron Davis's Hornets, when Davis was good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw

We will never see a player as good as Michael Jordan. Not Kobe, Wilt, Magic, LeBron, Wade nobody. Luckily we will be seeing the closest thing to MJ in OJ Mayo for the next 15 years.

[Psileas]

Why do we keep giving these 50s and 60s players any respect is beyond me. Did you see how garbage Wilt was in the early 70s when real competitiion started happening. Wilt was 7ft tall he didn't even need skill and he still couldn't dominate in his later years. 11 ppg in a playoff series GTFO.

MJ w/o any athletism left uses his brains and basketball skills to drop 51 points on Baron Davis's Hornets, when Davis was good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw

We will never see a player as good as Michael Jordan. Not Kobe, Wilt, Magic, LeBron, Wade nobody. Luckily we will be seeing the closest thing to MJ in OJ Mayo for the next 15 years.

Why did I keep reading after the first couple of lines is beyond me.


OK, I lied, I didn't. All you did was look at Wilt's PPG column from the 70's for 3 seconds, throw into the mix some competition hypotheses and that's it. Though I don't have the time or will to post much, just tell me, how come Wilt's scoring fell from 33.5 ppg to 24.1 ppg within a single season? Did he suddenly turn into "garbage", without any obvious reason, like a serious injury? Did the competition suddenly explode? Was any rule implemented to ban Wilt from scoring? BTW, do you even know who the starting centers (or most of them) were in 1967 without looking them up?

PS: I just read your last phrase. This explains it all, really.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan actually was outscored by Terry Cummings in his first playoff series.


Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for that? TC was a good scorer, but it's hard to believe that he averaged > 29.3 ppg over 4 games.

EDIT: Seems he averaged 27.5 ppg over 8 games that postseason, so it might be plausible, since he'd need to average "just" 25.7 ppg over the second series.

[guy]

40% vs. Knicks (3/18 in game when facing 0-3 deficit!). 38.6% vs. Heat.

Funny thing is only with Jordan could one of his worst series ever, which it is I'm not denying that, could feature two all-time great playoff games ever, the 54 point game 4 and triple double pivotal game 5. Imagine if Kobe or Lebron had a series like that featuring two back-to-back games like that today? No way would it considered "awful".

[guy]

I can agree with this list and dont really have any problem with the order with a few exceptions.

Jordan never faced an equal rival his best opponent Malone,Barkley ect.. are a step below the Birds and Isiah Piston Magic had to face and the Great Celtics Wilt had to face not to mention the teams Jabbar faced.I give it a pass but just wonder how Jordan would have faired agaisnt Great teams in there prime.

Jordan played very well against the Celtics in the playoffs, minus a bad game or two, and that was with absolutely no help around him. He always played very well against the Pistons too. People love to imply that Jordan was lucky he didn't have to deal with these teams in the 90s. But no one says the same thing about Bird, Magic, and Isiah. Those guys were very lucky that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast in the 80s like they did and he did in the 90s. He had a better prime/peak and significantly greater longevity then all of them. If he had a great team for his whole career like Magic and Bird did, the gap between them would be even larger.

Anyway, all this talk that Jordan never beat anyone great is really ridiculous. He beat a top 5 player ever in Magic, two top 15-20 players ever twice in Malone and Barkley, and another top 10 player ever in Shaq. Then of course there is Drexler, Payton, Ewing, Zo, Isiah, etc.

[Psileas]

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have a source for that? TC was a good scorer, but it's hard to believe that he averaged > 29.3 ppg over 4 games.

EDIT: Seems he averaged 27.5 ppg over 8 games that postseason, so it might be plausible, since he'd need to average "just" 25.7 ppg over the second series.


It's pretty surprising for sure, I didn't know this for quite a lot of time, either, till I got a Milwaukee Bucks' Media Guide. Here's the 2008 version:

http://www.nba.com/media/bucks/2008_Media_Guide.pdf

Scroll down to page 103. Cummings had 30, 37 and 29 points in games 2, 3, 4.
For game #1 (played on April 19), we have this source, where they credit him with 22.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3CMTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eAYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6842,2647070&dq=cummings+points

So, this gives Cummings a marginal edge of 29.5 ppg vs 29.3 ppg.

[Niquesports]

Jordan played very well against the Celtics in the playoffs, minus a bad game or two, and that was with absolutely no help around him. He always played very well against the Pistons too. People love to imply that Jordan was lucky he didn't have to deal with these teams in the 90s. But no one says the same thing about Bird, Magic, and Isiah. Those guys were very lucky that Jordan didn't have a great supporting cast in the 80s like they did and he did in the 90s. He had a better prime/peak and significantly greater longevity then all of them. If he had a great team for his whole career like Magic and Bird did, the gap between them would be even larger.

Anyway, all this talk that Jordan never beat anyone great is really ridiculous. He beat a top 5 player ever in Magic, two top 15-20 players ever twice in Malone and Barkley, and another top 10 player ever in Shaq. Then of course there is Drexler, Payton, Ewing, Zo, Isiah, etc.


IF its one on one I'd put my money on Jordan easly its called a team sport. YOur right the 90's Bulls are underrated when it comes to talent but it sure would have been good basketball to see a prime magic against a prime Jordan Showtime vs 90's Bulls

[guy]

IF its one on one I'd put my money on Jordan easly its called a team sport. YOur right the 90's Bulls are underrated when it comes to talent but it sure would have been good basketball to see a prime magic against a prime Jordan Showtime vs 90's Bulls

All I'm saying is unlike Magic and Bird, Jordan didn't have great teams around him his whole career. Its kind of unfair to specifically point out that Jordan never beat those great teams in the 80s, when its never pointed out that Magic,Bird, and Isiah never faced a great Jordan-led team and won. If people want to bring up this and directly or indirectly diminish Jordan's accomplishments, they should also point out how different it could've been if Jordan had anything remotely close to a contending team. Lets say Jordan did have those teams he won championships with from 85-90. We might be talking about 1 less title for the Celtics, 1-2 less titles for the Lakers, and/or Pistons dynasty might've never existed.

[G.O.A.T]

It's pretty surprising for sure, I didn't know this for quite a lot of time, either, till I got a Milwaukee Bucks' Media Guide. Here's the 2008 version:

http://www.nba.com/media/bucks/2008_Media_Guide.pdf

Scroll down to page 103. Cummings had 30, 37 and 29 points in games 2, 3, 4.
For game #1 (played on April 19), we have this source, where they credit him with 22.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3CMTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eAYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6842,2647070&dq=cummings+points

So, this gives Cummings a marginal edge of 29.5 ppg vs 29.3 ppg.


Directed at borh sides: Arguing over scoring average versus a player who plays another position is completley irrelevant to anything and everything.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan never faced an equal rival his best opponent Malone,Barkley ect.. are a step below the Birds and Isiah Piston Magic had to face and the Great Celtics Wilt had to face not to mention the teams Jabbar faced.I give it a pass but just wonder how Jordan would have faired agaisnt Great teams in there prime.

Jordan ended the Piston's dynasty. Besides, Malone and Barkley were better players than Isiah. Jordan also beat that Magic guy you mentioned (Magic was 2nd in MVP voting behind MJ in 91' so the common "he was past his prime" excuse does not fly)...


Wilt's dominance is quite simply unparalleled in professional sport. To put it into context, Wilt's 50ppg scoring average during the 60-61 season is the statistical equivalent to.

Jordan's 37 ppg is on par with Wilt's 50 ppg once pace is factored in.


This sort of dominance is almost unbelievable. And Wilt was this dominant, or very close, for all of his physical prime. He had no contemporary close to his size and skill level. He was graceful, powerful, dynamic, unstoppable. He was as literally as possible a Giant amongst Men.

Yet he kept losing when it counted. That goes to the OP. Doesn't that suggest he underachieved in the playoffs? How could the most dominant player in sports history be a perennial loser when it counted the most? Part of the reason for this discrepancy is that Wilt was a ball-hog when he put up his best numbers. How often do ball-hogs win titles? Wilt averaged 2 apg despite having the ball so often during his peak years. Later in his career he showed he could average 8-9 apg--and he began winning when he began passing.


The acceptable proper answers be Russell & Bird.

Bird>Kareem? :wtf:

[Duncan21formvp]

It's pretty surprising for sure, I didn't know this for quite a lot of time, either, till I got a Milwaukee Bucks' Media Guide. Here's the 2008 version:

http://www.nba.com/media/bucks/2008_Media_Guide.pdf

Scroll down to page 103. Cummings had 30, 37 and 29 points in games 2, 3, 4.
For game #1 (played on April 19), we have this source, where they credit him with 22.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3CMTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eAYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6842,2647070&dq=cummings+points

So, this gives Cummings a marginal edge of 29.5 ppg vs 29.3 ppg.

So 118 to 117?

Yeah that is really outscoring someone.

Anyway I saw somewhere that Cummings average in that series was 29.0 ppg which would mean he scored 116 points. So I'm not sure if he was counted for a final bucket or not.

[G.O.A.T]

Jordan's 37 ppg is on par with Wilt's 50 ppg once pace is factored in.



Did you really think you could just make that up and no one would notice?

[IInvented]

i ended this thead about 3 pages back

[Roundball_Rock]

Did you really think you could just make that up and no one would notice?

Of course not--which is why I did not do that.

Wilt in 62' had a pace of 125.5, Jordan in 87' played at a pace of 95.8. Adjust Jordan's stats for the pace of 1962 and he would average 48.6 ppg in 40 minutes a game while Wilt produced 50.4 in 48.5 mpg.

[Fatal9]

If we are really doing these linear adjustments, I am assuming Jordan fans are okay with his 37 ppg season being only 32.6 ppg in 2006?

[OldSchoolBBall]

You can't scale individual scoring directly for pace. What really matters is the number of scoring possessions used (FGA + FTA).

Jordan's 378 ppg in '87 isn't 50+ in '62 because you're not scaling the number of shots and FT's he's taking proportionately. Wilt took something like 40 FGA/17 FTA per game the season he scored 50 ppg as compared to MJ's 28 FGA/12 FTA. That's the REAL reason why Wilt averaged 50...not pace. Not that just any player can average 50 (or 37 for that matter) if given enough FGA/FTA, because that's false. But you can't scale individual scoring directly for pace in any direction. Tons of evidence proves this (e.g., players scoring more on slower teams and less on faster teams within a 4-6 year span).

[guy]

If we are really doing these linear adjustments, I am assuming Jordan fans are okay with his 37 ppg season being only 32.6 ppg in 2006?

Ummm, where the hell do you get that? Jordan played at a 95.8 pace in 1987. At a 90.5 pace which was the league average in 2006, Jordan's 37.1 ppg would go down to 35.0 ppg.

[guy]

You can't scale individual scoring directly for pace. What really matters is the number of scoring possessions used (FGA + FTA).

Jordan's 378 ppg in '87 isn't 50+ in '62 because you're not scaling the number of shots and FT's he's taking proportionately. Wilt took something like 40 FGA/17 FTA per game the season he scored 50 ppg as compared to MJ's 28 FGA/12 FTA. That's the REAL reason why Wilt averaged 50...not pace. Not that just any player can average 50 (or 37 for that matter) if given enough FGA/FTA, because that's false. But you can't scale individual scoring directly for pace in any direction. Tons of evidence proves this (e.g., players scoring more on slower teams and less on faster teams within a 4-6 year span).

I don't know if I'm sure what you're saying, but with 40 FGA/17 FTA per game and the percentages he had in 87, Jordan would've averaged about 52.6 ppg then.

Is that you're saying, are you saying we shouldn't treat points, but the FGA/FTA and %s as the function of pace? Because with that being the case, Jordan would be at 48.4 ppg, not far off from what Roundball Rock said.

And Wilt taking 40 FGA/17 FTA per game was a result of pace, so indirectly, Wilt's 50 ppg was a result of pace. There's no way Wilt would've averaged that many shots in later eras.

I'm not going to bother going back and erasing the calculation parts, but I just realized Roundball Rock was wrong with what he said. Wilt's team averaged 125.4 POINTS, they didn't play at a pace of 125.4. I'm assuming he got it from basketball-reference, which doesn't have that data for back then. This would drive Jordan's hypothetical average of 48 ppg down.

[RedZiggyZag]

Michael Jordan.....I can count on him delivering points for me in all 4 quarters, I can't say the same for Wilt The Stilt, though not to take away anything from Wilt, he just wasn't as complete of a player as Jordan was even though he was a center.


Wilt didn't struggle in the playoffs.
Not all the time, but he is probably the biggest choker out of all the Top 10 players to ever play, I really don't think you can find a bigger choker than him. Obviously he has performed and delivered in the playoffs, but he has always choked and miss big FTs in the end of games as well. Still doesn't take away the fact that Wilt Chamberlain is easily a Top 3 center to ever play and one of the greatests of all-time, he just happened to be a choker....However for more information....

See Game 7, 1969 NBA Finals

[L.Kizzle]

Michael Jordan.....I can count on him delivering points for me in all 4 quarters, I can't say the same for Wilt The Stilt, though not to take away anything from Wilt, he just wasn't as complete of a player as Jordan was even though he was a center.


Not all the time, but he is probably the biggest choker out of all the Top 10 players to ever play, I really don't think you can find a bigger choker than him. Obviously he has performed and delivered in the playoffs, but he has always choked and miss big FTs in the end of games as well. Still doesn't take away the fact that Wilt Chamberlain is easily a Top 3 center to ever play and one of the greatests of all-time, he just happened to be a choker....However for more information....

See Game 7, 1969 NBA Finals
The game where coach didn't put him back in??

[RedZiggyZag]

The game where coach didn't put him back in??
Yes, and you know what else..... Wilt's statline in that series was just 12 PPG, So either Russell's defense was at it's greatest, even though he was in his last legs, or Wilt just choked and played sub-par. He also in that series shot 2-11 at the line, and they lost the game. Then he shoots 4-13 from the line in the deciding game 7 in a two point loss...

Epic Choke job or Bill Russell greatness. You decide.

[L.Kizzle]

Yes, and you know what else..... Wilt's statline in that series was just 12 PPG, So either Russell's defense was at it's greatest, even though he was in his last legs, or Wilt just choked and played sub-par. He also in that series shot 2-11 at the line, and they lost the game. Then he shoots 4-13 from the line in the deciding game 7 in a two point loss...

Epic Choke job or Bill Russell greatness. You decide.
Wilt onlt avg around 20 ppg the season and about 15 in the playoffs. It was the Jerry West show that season, he was playing the background role.

[RedZiggyZag]

Wilt onlt avg around 20 ppg the season and about 15 in the playoffs. It was the Jerry West show that season, he was playing the background role.
And those Free throws play no role? Or was Jerry West getting to his head or something? Missing Big Free throws is more of a choke job than scoring below the averages, See Nick Anderson for example, Nobody cares if he played sub-par or above average in those Finals, because everybody will remember him missing those 4 FTs against the Rockets in 95'. He's pretty much labeled choker forever because of those FTs, so if it haunts a guy like Anderson it should haunt a guy like Wilt.

[L.Kizzle]

And those Free throws play no role? Or was Jerry West getting to his head or something? Missing Big Free throws is more of a choke job than scoring below the averages, See Nick Anderson for example, Nobody cares if he played sub-par or above average in those Finals, because everybody will remember him missing those 4 FTs against the Rockets in 95'. He's pretty much labeled choker forever because of those FTs, so if it haunts a guy like Anderson it should haunt a guy like Wilt.
He was a terrible free throw shooter, I wouldn't call that a choke job. Ben Wallace missing a free throw in a close game ... is that a choke job or Big Ben just being Big Ben?

[RedZiggyZag]

He was a terrible free throw shooter, I wouldn't call that a choke job. Ben Wallace missing a free throw in a close game ... is that a choke job or Big Ben just being Big Ben?
Fair enough, I guess that is like Big Ben being Big Ben, but Wilt a player of his caliber, being compared to Michael Jordan needs to have Clutch moments and he really cannot have many choke moments like the way Chamberlain had his. Whether he's a choker or not, a player of his caliber is suppose to want and make those shots at the moment of the game and Wilt just didn't do that. Nobody expects Ben Wallace to even touch the ball in those late-game situations, most of us do expect us for Wilt to touch those balls in late-game situations, make the Fts and close out a game, and he wasn't the best at it and he was far far far away from Michael Jordan at it.

[L.Kizzle]

Fair enough, I guess that is like Big Ben being Big Ben, but Wilt a player of his caliber, being compared to Michael Jordan needs to have Clutch moments and he really cannot have many choke moments like the way Chamberlain had his. Whether he's a choker or not, a player of his caliber is suppose to want and make those shots at the moment of the game and Wilt just didn't do that. Nobody expects Ben Wallace to even touch the ball in those late-game situations, most of us do expect us for Wilt to touch those balls in late-game situations, make the Fts and close out a game, and he wasn't the best at it and he was far far far away from Michael Jordan at it.
If I remember correctly, weren't they doin' Whack-a Wilt in that game? And the ball wouldn't be in his hands like like it wouldn't be in Ben's it'll be in J West or Elgin.

[Kasper]

If I remember correctly, weren't they doin' Whack-a Wilt in that game? And the ball wouldn't be in his hands like like it wouldn't be in Ben's it'll be in J West or Elgin.

Then thats the argument why he wasn't the greatest ever.

Even Shaq would at least hit free throws at the end of games.

If the comparisson comes down to Wilt and Wallace, what does that say?

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't know if I'm sure what you're saying, but with 40 FGA/17 FTA per game and the percentages he had in 87, Jordan would've averaged about 52.6 ppg then.

Is that you're saying, are you saying we shouldn't treat points, but the FGA/FTA and %s as the function of pace? Because with that being the case, Jordan would be at 48.4 ppg, not far off from what Roundball Rock said.

And Wilt taking 40 FGA/17 FTA per game was a result of pace, so indirectly, Wilt's 50 ppg was a result of pace. There's no way Wilt would've averaged that many shots in later eras.

I'm not going to bother going back and erasing the calculation parts, but I just realized Roundball Rock was wrong with what he said. Wilt's team averaged 125.4 POINTS, they didn't play at a pace of 125.4. I'm assuming he got it from basketball-reference, which doesn't have that data for back then. This would drive Jordan's hypothetical average of 48 ppg down.

I'm saying that you can't scale individual ppg directly for team/league pace, because the two are not directly related. What IS directly related is scoring opportunities (FGA/FTA) and ppg. Now, not just any player can find 30+ good shots for themselves every game, so that's why only a couple of players in history would have been able to even average 40+ back then.

[Psileas]

So 118 to 117?

Yeah that is really outscoring someone.

Anyway I saw somewhere that Cummings average in that series was 29.0 ppg which would mean he scored 116 points. So I'm not sure if he was counted for a final bucket or not.

Well, yes, since 118 > 117, this is really outscoring someone. It doesn't have to be by a huge margin. I never said anything like this, after all.
I provided a source about my figures. All the other sources from the same day show the same thing. What is yours about this final bucket that might not count? I'm at least suspicious about any claim about a source which seems to have revealed long ago something that virtually nobody knows (aka, Cummings' averages in a particular series).


Not all the time, but he is probably the biggest choker out of all the Top 10 players to ever play, I really don't think you can find a bigger choker than him. Obviously he has performed and delivered in the playoffs, but he has always choked and miss big FTs in the end of games as well. Still doesn't take away the fact that Wilt Chamberlain is easily a Top 3 center to ever play and one of the greatests of all-time, he just happened to be a choker....However for more information....


See Game 7, 1969 NBA Finals

Then thats the argument why he wasn't the greatest ever.

Even Shaq would at least hit free throws at the end of games.

If the comparisson comes down to Wilt and Wallace, what does that say?

Shaq has probably missed as many clutch free throws as Wilt. Look no further than 2008. He missed 7 free throws in game 2 vs SA in a 6-point loss. Then he missed 11 FT's in a Game 5 5-point loss (while only shooting 2-8 FG). Few remember this today, because this was only the first round of the playoffs, but Shaq choked, and he choked in a smaller stage. Want to see a prime Shaq? In '98, in a 4 game sweep to the Jazz, he twice missed more free throws than the final margin.
And how about the fact that Shaq got swept a total of 6 times vs Wilt's 1? How is that for a choker?
And why no mention of Wilt making plays like the OT FT's against Atlanta in Game 3 of the 1970 WCF or making the game winning blocked shot in Game 2 of the '69 WCF oe blocking 6 shots in the final quarter of the '67 Finals Game 6 or him being one of the only 2 players (along with Jordan himself) to have at least 3 games with 40+ points in the closing game of a series? Let me guess, no-one taught people this, all the average fan was taught was the stuff about the '69 Finals, about the "Willis Reed game", etc.

When you study something, you have to study it from all angles. Not just from the perspective that you were taught as a kid/teen.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq has probably missed as many clutch free throws as Wilt. Look no further than 2008. He missed 7 free throws in game 2 vs SA in a 6-point loss. Then he missed 11 FT's in a Game 5 5-point loss (while only shooting 2-8 FG). Few remember this today, because this was only the first round of the playoffs, but Shaq choked, and he choked in a smaller stage. Want to see a prime Shaq? In '98, in a 4 game sweep to the Jazz, he twice missed more free throws than the final margin.
And how about the fact that Shaq got swept a total of 6 times vs Wilt's 1? How is that for a choker?
And why no mention of Wilt making plays like the OT FT's against Atlanta in Game 3 of the 1970 WCF or making the game winning blocked shot in Game 2 of the '69 WCF oe blocking 6 shots in the final quarter of the '67 Finals Game 6 or him being one of the only 2 players (along with Jordan himself) to have at least 3 games with 40+ points in the closing game of a series? Let me guess, no-one taught people this, all the average fan was taught was the stuff about the '69 Finals, about the "Willis Reed game", etc.


You can't call Shaq or Wilt missing free throws choking because they aren't good free throw shooters to begin with. Nick Anderson or Hedo Turkoglu's missed free throws are examples of choking at the foul line. Choking is when you fail to do things you'd normally do because of the pressure of the moment. Shaq and Wilt missed free throws all game long.

But Shaq stepped up more in the playoffs. His scoring rose a bit in the playoffs and so did his rebounds and assists while Wilt's scoring dropped a lot and his rebounds rose while his assists stayed the same.

Shaq's career regular season stats- 24.7 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, 2.3 bpg, 58.2 FG%, 52.8 FT%

Shaq's career playoff stats- 25.2 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.2 bpg, 56.4 FG%, 50.1 FT%

Wilt's career regular season stats- 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, 54.0 FG%, 51.1 FT%

Wilt's career playoff stats- 22.5 ppg, 24.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, 52.2 FG%, 46.5 FT%

As far as Shaq getting swept 6 times.

One of those times includes his first playoff series ever against a Pacers team that would make 2 consecutive ECF. He didn't exactly have a great team around him either.

The second time was in 1995 when Shaq did his job and played a great game getting Orlando a lead late. All Nick Anderson had to do was a make 1 of 4 free throws, but he didn't and they allowed a 3 to Kenny Smith. None of that is on Shaq who had 26 points, 16 rebounds, 9 assists and 3 blocks on 10/16 shooting. He'd average 28 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg and 2.5 bpg on 59.5% shooting in the series.

The 3rd was against the 72-10 Chicago Bulls, arguably the best team ever, a team that had the best record ever, probably the best player ever, arguably the best rebounder ever, the best coach , a top 5 SF in NBA history......and once again Shaq showed up and averaged 27.3 ppg, 10.8 rpg and 4 apg on 64% shooting. Why not check what his teammates did that series? Penny Hardaway only showed up in game 1 and then shot 38% the last 3 games.

In 1998 Shaq was swept for the 4th time, but he averaged 31.8 ppg and 9.3 rpg on 56% shooting. Shaq did his job averaging 32 per game. Eddie Jones, a notorious playoff choker averaged 15 ppg on 41% shooting. Nick Van Exel averaged 9 ppg on 23.8% shooting. Kobe didn't do much averaging 10 ppg on 36.7% shooting. Shaq's supporting cast was awful that series, that's why he was swept.

In 1999 the blame can be placed on him, although he didn't get much help then, either.

In 2007 Shaq was 35 and he still stepped up his game from the regular season averaging 18.8 ppg and 8.5 rpg, but Chicago had homecourt, a much deeper team and not only did Wade and Shaq have virtually no time together in the regular season to develop chemistry, but Wade was also obviously injured and performed well under his normal standards. The refs also weren't letting Shaq do anything that series and calling some cheap offensive fouls.

And who cares about sweeps? What matters is winning and if you don't win the series it doesn't really matter how you lost.

You want to talk about choking? How about Wilt's 76ers choking away a 3-1 lead to Boston, the first time in history that had ever happened. In game 7 Wilt scored just 14 points and didn't attempt a shot in the second half. And in the 1969 finals with a chance to close out the series in game 6, Wilt had just 8 points.

I've never considered Wilt a choker, but Shaq is the better playoff performer. Just look at how he stepped up during the 3peat each year, particularly in the playoffs and finals. He put the Lakers on his back

1999-2000
Regular Season- 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.0 bpg, 57.4 FG%
Playoffs- 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.4 bpg, 56.6 FG%
Finals- 38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.7 bpg, 61.1 FG%

2000-2001
Regular Season- 28.7 ppg, 12.7 rpg, 3.7 apg, 2.8 bpg, 57.2 FG%
Playoffs- 30.4 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 2.5 bpg 55.5 FG%
Finals- 33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.4 bpg, 57.3 FG%

2001-2002
Regular Season- 27.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 3.0 apg, 2.0 bpg, 57.9 FG%
Playoffs- 28.5 ppg, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, 52.9 FG%
Finals- 36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.8 bpg, 59.5 FG%

Wilt during his 2 championships was great, but he didn't dominate the finals, nearly the way O'Neal did and Wilt, unlike O'Neal was not able to sustain his scoring dominance in the playoffs. Shaq is one of only 4 players to win a scoring title and a championship in the same season, along with Jordan, George Mikan and Kareem.

1966-1967
Regular Season- 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg, 68.3 FG%
Playoffs- 21.7 ppg, 29.1 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 57.9 FG%
Finals- 17.7 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, 44.9 FG%

1971-1972
Regular Season- 14.8 ppg, 19.2 rpg, 4.0 apg, 64.9 FG%
Playoffs- 14.7 ppg, 21.0 rpg, 3.3 apg, 56.3 FG%
Finals- 19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, 2.6 apg, 60 FG%

In the 1964 finals Wilt averaged 29.2 ppg and 27.6 rpg, in the 1969 finals Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg, in the 1970 finals Wilt averaged 23.3 ppg, 24.1 rpg and 4.0 apg on 62.5% shooting. In the 1973 finals Wilt averaged 11.6 ppg, 18.6 rpg and 3.8 apg and he shot 52.4%. I'm unsure of the complete stats for '64 and '69, but it didn't seem like he raised his game in the finals with the exception of 1972 when he was amazing.

Shaq also has twice as many titles as Wilt despite playing against 4 times as many teams. I'm not trying to take away from Wilt, I'm a great admirer of his many talents as a basketball player and both Wilt and Shaq are top 5 players, in my opinion, but Shaq is the better playoff performer.

[guy]

I'm saying that you can't scale individual ppg directly for team/league pace, because the two are not directly related. What IS directly related is scoring opportunities (FGA/FTA) and ppg. Now, not just any player can find 30+ good shots for themselves every game, so that's why only a couple of players in history would have been able to even average 40+ back then.

Scaling back FGs per game and FTs per game to pace and using the same %s gives you pretty close to the same PPG that would result from just scaling back PPG to pace. In theory, isn't scoring opportunities related to pace. Sure, like you said sometimes a player has averaged less shots on a faster team then a slower team, but that has more to do with the team around him and/or just taking a different approach to the game. I don't understand how pace isn't related to PPG. When converting, all it really is is taking the amount of points per possession and multiplying it by the different pace. If I'm not understanding what you're saying correctly, then please provide an example.

And sure its very hard to find 30+ good shots per game, but it obviously becomes increasingly easier the higher the pace. So Wilt averaging 40 shots per game can be attributed greatly to pace.

[Psileas]

To be honest, I don't consider Shaq a choker, either, but I wanted to make a point that he too had similar bad moments that many seem to call only Wilt about.

The examples of the 1968 and '69 playoffs are 2 of the 3 most famous for Wilt.
Here are Wilt's numbers during the 4 losses of the Sixers in '68:

33 pts, 25 rebs
28 pts, 30 rebs
20 pts, 27 rebs
14 pts, 34 rebs

You can blame him for not shooting in the second half of game 7, but not for having a bad series overall. He averaged 23.8 ppg and 29.0 rpg (and probably 5-6 apg) in these 4 losses. Not to mention that the Sixers faced injury problems, with Cunningham missing the series and Luke Jackson also playing injured.
In 1969, he also has to share some of the blame for not shooting enough, although his coach, who wasn't fond of Wilt and wanted the team to base its offensive game on West-Baylor and little touches from big men, is to be blamed, as well.

As long as Shaq's and Wilt's Finals performances are concerned, I think that we shouldn't always be fooled by the "Finals" label and call every Finals series the toughest of the season. If anything, for example, the 2002 Lakers faced much bigger problems against the Kings than the Nets and Shaq struggled a lot more against the Spurs.

Wilt didn't dominate as much as Shaq did in the Finals. But he did a great job against the best teams and centers of his era. He faced the Celtics 8 times, but only twice in the Finals, simply because he was usually playing in the East. Actually, every time we didn't win it all, he lost to the eventual champions all but once. Give him a Western team in the 60's and he'd have a lot of epic games and battles against Russell, but this time in the NBA Finals, unless someone thinks that the Lakers with their mediocre frontline were going to stop his teams all the time from advancing, which I definitely don't. Upping your game against Russell or Thurmond was no easier task than doing so against Hakeem or Duncan, and Wilt faced one or two of them almost every season. That's tough, NBA Finals or not.

BTW, Wilt shot 56% FG in the 1967 Finals, not 44.9.

[ShaqAttack3234]

To be honest, I don't consider Shaq a choker, either, but I wanted to make a point that he too had similar bad moments that many seem to call only Wilt about.

The examples of the 1968 and '69 playoffs are 2 of the 3 most famous for Wilt.
Here are Wilt's numbers during the 4 losses of the Sixers in '68:

33 pts, 25 rebs
28 pts, 30 rebs
20 pts, 27 rebs
14 pts, 34 rebs

You can blame him for not shooting in the second half of game 7, but not for having a bad series overall. He averaged 23.8 ppg and 29.0 rpg (and probably 5-6 apg) in these 4 losses. Not to mention that the Sixers faced injury problems, with Cunningham missing the series and Luke Jackson also playing injured.

Of course it's not like he was awful in the losses, but not shooting the second half of game 7 reminds me a lot what Kobe did in game 7 of that series vs Phoenix in 2006. He took a lot of criticism for that as well. Neither are chokers, but those are moments I'm sure they'd like to forget.

And Cunningham's injury was a big blow, but when you're up 3-1 in a series the series should be put away.


In 1969, he also has to share some of the blame for not shooting enough, although his coach, who wasn't fond of Wilt and wanted the team to base its offensive game on West-Baylor and little touches from big men, is to be blamed, as well.

That's true, there were other factors, but I still would have expected Wilt to have his way with Russell who was in his last year, or atleast score more than he did.


As long as Shaq's and Wilt's Finals performances are concerned, I think that we shouldn't always be fooled by the "Finals" label and call every Finals series the toughest of the season. If anything, for example, the 2002 Lakers faced much bigger problems against the Kings than the Nets and Shaq struggled a lot more against the Spurs.

Well, Shaq did average 30/14 vs Sacramento and facing elimination he came up big with a 41/17 game 6 and a 35/13/4 game 7.

And while the finals may not always be the toughest series there is something to be said for being on the biggest stage and dominating. I don't think Shaq's opponents really mattered in the finals. He had 33/16/5/3 vs the DPOY Dikembe Mutombo and a great 76ers defense. 38/17/2/3 vs a Pacers team facing constant double and trile teams because Kobe and Glen Rice combined for more than 10 ppg less than O'Neal did and on a poor shooting percentage. Shaq did put his team on his back several times in the finals in different situations and that's extremely impressive to me, particularly doing it 3 years in a row


Wilt didn't dominate as much as Shaq did in the Finals. But he did a great job against the best teams and centers of his era. He faced the Celtics 8 times, but only twice in the Finals, simply because he was usually playing in the East. Actually, every time we didn't win it all, he lost to the eventual champions all but once. Give him a Western team in the 60's and he'd have a lot of epic games and battles against Russell, but this time in the NBA Finals, unless someone thinks that the Lakers with their mediocre frontline were going to stop his teams all the time from advancing, which I definitely don't. Upping your game against Russell or Thurmond was no easier task than doing so against Hakeem or Duncan, and Wilt faced one or two of them almost every season. That's tough, NBA Finals or not.

Yeah, I'm not trying to take away anything from Wilt. In my opinion, he was the best of his era, better than Russell, better than West, better than Baylor, better than Robertson, better than Thurmond, better than Reed ect., but the number 1 goal is to win a championship. I'm not saying he should have won 11 like Russell. That's not a fair comparison because Russell's role was different for his team. Russell was able to be the 4th option offensively and concentrate on defense because his team was stacked. In Fairness when Wilt had that oppurtunity in 1972, he led a team that was more dominant than any of Russell's Celtics. But he still had other oppurtunities and I would have expected a player of Chamberlain's level to step up enough in the finals to win atleast 1 or 2 more titles.

That doesn't take away from the fact that to me he's in the top 3-5 range of players of all time.



BTW, Wilt shot 56% FG in the 1967 Finals, not 44.9.

My mistake, stats from that era are hard to find.