Do people have Kobe ahead of Duncan on their all-time lists?

[beasted86]

On your all-time list of great NBA players, do you currently have Kobe ahead of Duncan? If so, why? If not, why?

[Big#50]

On your all-time list of great NBA players, do you currently have Kobe ahead of Duncan? If so, why? If not, why?
Nope.

[gts]

On your all-time list of great NBA players, do you currently have Kobe ahead of Duncan? If so, why? If not, why?both great players but i do have kobe ahead of duncan on my all time list.. why? because he is a better player who has a bigger impact on the game

[Interminator]

No.

Elite Big Man > Elite Wing

[Big#50]

both great players but i do have kobe ahead of duncan on my all time list.. why? because he is a better player who has a bigger impact on the game
You ever see the 03 and 05 finals?

[Showtime]

Duncan is ahead.

Why:

Duncan is the better winner. Duncan is more consistent. Duncan is an elite force on both ends. Duncan has always lead his team to 50 win seasons and the playoffs. Duncan hasn't lost in the finals. Duncan is arguably the best ever at his position.

[JohnnySic]

Not a chance. :no:

[imdaman99]

Duncan hasn't lost in the Finals but he's lost countless times to a team with Kobe on it.

I still have Duncan ahead of Kobe but not by much. Kobe's gonna surpass him this year, on my list.

[Papaya Petee]

i have both ahead of magic johnson.
GTFO

[JustinJDW]

If someone does have Kobe ahead of Duncan, then they deserved to be tied down and be forced to watch as I rape their entire family one by one.

[imdaman99]

If someone does have Kobe ahead of Duncan, then they deserved to be tied down and be forced to watch as I rape their entire family one by one.
Oh, you're a Spurs fan. Nobody expected you to say that.

[gts]

You ever see the 03 and 05 finals?yes i did.. and it still does not give him a better career than kobe at this time.. like i said both great players but career wise kobe has had a better career and will continue to widen the gap from this point on

[Mdog1]

Easily Duncan come on now how does this type of question not get the OP perma banned.

[beasted86]

Easily Duncan come on now how does this type of question not get the OP perma banned.
:oldlol:, I never even said who I had higher. It's just a question I thought was interesting.

But if you want my opinion, Duncan is obviously higher than Kobe. 4 championships as the #1 > 1 championship as the #1

It's not even as though Kobe has more rings overall (as #1 or 2) than Duncan. He just tied last year.

[CantStop]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

[White Chocolate]

Flashy players tend to get more credit than reserved ones. Anyone that is more than a casual basketball fan knows that Duncan is the better winner and leader.

[DKLaker]

both great players but i do have kobe ahead of duncan on my all time list.. why? because he is a better player who has a bigger impact on the game

Well said GTS :cheers:

[magnax1]

Idk, I don't really have an all time list made out in my head. but I guess if I just go with what I feel like as of now, I'd put Duncan slightly ahead of Kobe just because of consistancy. 2nd best player in the world from 99-2007 is better than best player in the world from 06-09. Duncan was probably best in the world for a couple years too.

[Mdog1]

:oldlol:, I never even said who I had higher. It's just a question I thought was interesting.

But if you want my opinion, Duncan is obviously higher than Kobe. 4 championships as the #1 > 1 championship as the #1

It's not even as though Kobe has more rings overall (as #1 or 2) than Duncan. He just tied last year.
Ok sorry I was just flustered by the idiot that had Kobe higher. You can't even use the far superior numbers argument because they aren't.

[Rob123]

How is this a question?

Duncan has led and been the clear cut leader of his teams practically since his rookie year. He's been a consistent dominating force that's never been a drama queen. He just goes out on a daily basis and beats you.

He's a two time mvp, and the clear cut greatest at his position.

Kobe will go down in history as one of the best to play the game no doubt. But he'll be behind Duncan if everything stays as it is. If Kobe can win a few more rings as the dominant player, and Duncan does nothing, I'll change my opinion.

[Story Up]

Duncan is ahead.

Why:

Duncan is the better winner. Duncan is more consistent. Duncan is an elite force on both ends. Duncan has always lead his team to 50 win seasons and the playoffs. Duncan hasn't lost in the finals. Duncan is arguably the best ever at his position.

1) Kobe has 4 rings, how is Duncan a better winner? (They both won 4 titles)
2) Duncan consistently had better teammates around him sure, Kobe had to struggle for three years once Shaquille got traded.
3) Sure Duncan led his team to the playoffs, it would be a shame if he couldn't hence he had terrific players around him and terrific coaching staff
4) Duncan has lost plenty to LA/Kobe, who cares if he hasn't lost in the finals? He didn't get finals MVP every time either. It's not like he was the only player that was wearing a Spurs jersey in those championship rounds.
5) Duncan is not better then Jordan just like Kobe is not better then Jordan, so him being the best ever at his position means very little when comparing the two players.

I have Kobe around the 11-15th place and Duncan 8th on my list, but Kobe is also younger and is currently the better player. I think by the end of their careers I see Kobe being ahead.

Duncan is like basketball's Messiah, everyone loves him for some reason. He's definitely becoming overrated in my book.

[Rob123]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You've never watched basketball, there's just no way.

[White Chocolate]

1) Kobe has 4 rings, how is Duncan a better winner? (They both won 4 titles)


Duncan won all 4 while being the head hancho and anchoring the team's defense. Kobe was second fiddle for 3 of the 4.



2) Duncan consistently had better teammates around him sure, Kobe had to struggle for three years once Shaquille got traded.


During the Lakers 3-peat, they had players that understood their role just like the Spurs players(Fisher, Fox, Horry). For the majority of Kobe's career with the Lakers, they were a great team. It was only a 2-3 year period where they were mediocre.



3) Sure Duncan led his team to the playoffs, it would be a shame if he couldn't hence he had terrific players around him and terrific coaching staff


Phil Jackson is called the Zen Master for a reason. Tex Winter was also one of the best assistant coaches in the league when he was around.



4) Duncan has lost plenty to LA/Kobe, who cares if he hasn't lost in the finals? He didn't get finals MVP every time either. It's not like he was the only player that was wearing a Spurs jersey in those championship rounds.


Duncan is 3/4 in Finals MVP. Kobe is 1/4.



5) Duncan is not better then Jordan just like Kobe is not better then Jordan, so him being the best ever at his position means very little when comparing the two players.


No one is disagreeing that Duncan is below MJ.



I have Kobe around the 11-15th place and Duncan 8th on my list, but Kobe is also younger and is currently the better player. I think by the end of their careers I see Kobe being ahead.


At present, yes. Kobe is younger and big men often tend to decline faster. As for overall careers, Duncan will be the GOAT PF. He will be above Kobe.



Duncan is like basketball's Messiah, everyone loves him for some reason. He's definitely becoming overrated in my book.


People love Duncan because he is a winner, leader, humble, and turned down $40 million so the Spurs could sign other players. He is a team player and an even better person.

[magnax1]

I love how the perception of players changes over time. Up until a couple years ago Malone was supposedly the best power forward ever. In the early thousands, people saw Duncan and his team as soft, and unable to get past the Lakers because of inconsistancy. Up until about 05, people saw KG and Duncan as equals, and some even saw KG as a better player. So now, just because Duncan has had such great teams, and such a great Coach he is the best power forward ever in most peoples minds. I think hes great, and ahead of Kobe but I don't see what hes done that KG, Barkley, Malone and Petit haven't and why all the sudden he is GOAT power forward.

[D-Rose]

I love how the perception of players changes over time. Up until a couple years ago Malone was supposedly the best power forward ever. In the early thousands, people saw Duncan and his team as soft, and unable to get past the Lakers because of inconsistancy. Up until about 05, people saw KG and Duncan as equals, and some even saw KG as a better player. So now, just because Duncan has had such great teams, and such a great Coach he is the best power forward ever in most peoples minds. I think hes great, and ahead of Kobe but I don't see what hes done that KG, Barkley, Malone and Petit haven't and why all the sudden he is GOAT power forward.
You mean Duncan is the 6th Greatest Center ever right?

[magnax1]

You mean Duncan is the 6th Greatest Center ever right?
Hes only played like 3 or so years of center.

[D-Rose]

Hes only played like 3 or so years of center.
Oh you mean every year after Robinson? Which is just like Hakeem after Sampson?

Then I guess the GOAT PF is

http://www.fivewinds.net/demo/hakeem_blocks_jordan.jpg

[White Chocolate]

I love how the perception of players changes over time. Up until a couple years ago Malone was supposedly the best power forward ever. In the early thousands, people saw Duncan and his team as soft, and unable to get past the Lakers because of inconsistancy. Up until about 05, people saw KG and Duncan as equals, and some even saw KG as a better player. So now, just because Duncan has had such great teams, and such a great Coach he is the best power forward ever in most peoples minds. I think hes great, and ahead of Kobe but I don't see what hes done that KG, Barkley, Malone and Petit haven't and why all the sudden he is GOAT power forward.


Because you're referring to the casual fan. Duncan was the GOAT PF as of around 2003. He provides so many intangibles that they can't be measured in any way. Garnett may have had the edge in statistics and obvious edge in athleticism, but Duncan provided more intangibles. Intangibles, along with defense win championships.

[Story Up]

White C, it is not Kobe's fault he had to play behind the most dominant player in the league. If Duncan was drafted by LA, his accolades would be cut in half.

I think for the past 3-4 years Kobe has had more impact on the game then Tim Duncan, I think at their peak they are both very close to each other. Duncan right now is higher because he had a chance to lead a franchise his entire career, while Kobe is just starting to take on that responsibility.

[magnax1]

Because you're referring to the casual fan. Duncan was the GOAT PF as of around 2003. He provides so many intangibles that they can't be measured in any way. Garnett may have had the edge in statistics and obvious edge in athleticism, but Duncan provided more intangibles. Intangibles, along with defense win championships.
Not so much, Duncan won more, but was the worse player. Garnett had as good of defense, hustle and basically did everything Duncan did and more. The reason people see Duncan as better is because he has had better teams. This is true of alot of players. If you give Garnett the same teams as Duncan from 02-05 he might give you three straight championships. Look what he did with some of those horrific teams in the early thousands.

[White Chocolate]

White C, it is not Kobe's fault he had to play behind the most dominant player in the league. If Duncan was drafted by LA, his accolades would be cut in half.

I think for the past 3-4 years Kobe has had more impact on the game then Tim Duncan, I think at their peak they are both very close to each other. Duncan right now is higher because he had a chance to lead a franchise his entire career, while Kobe is just starting to take on that responsibility.


Kobe hasn't done anything without a decent defensive big. If you took away Duncan't supporting cast, he wouldn't win anything. Even the great MJ didn't win squat until Pippen became a good player. As for leadership, Duncan not only could be counted on, but also depended on. Kobe was often mediocre, especially in the Finals. Duncan > Kobe.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh you mean every year after Robinson? Which is just like Hakeem after Sampson?

Then I guess the GOAT PF is

http://www.fivewinds.net/demo/hakeem_blocks_jordan.jpg

Don't forget that at the tail end of Robinson's career, Duncan was basically playing with Malik Rose as much as he was playing Robinson. But Sampson was considered more of a PF than Olajuwon, although I considered them a 2 center lineup like Robinson and Duncan.

But back to the oriignal question. No, Kobe is not ahead of Duncan. Duncan has more MVP's, he was a better defender, has just as big of an impact at his peak offensively, he's won 3 more titles as the main guy and he had the better peak.

Can someone tell me when Kobe was ever as good as 2003 Duncan? Duncan averaged 24.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 bpg and 52.9 FG% throughout the entire playoffs on his way to a title. He had a near quadruple double in the clinching game of the finals as well as a 20/20 game.

[Story Up]

Kobe hasn't done anything without a decent defensive big. If you took away Duncan't supporting cast, he wouldn't win anything. Even the great MJ didn't win squat until Pippen became a good player. As for leadership, Duncan not only could be counted on, but also depended on. Kobe was often mediocre, especially in the Finals. Duncan > Kobe.

Duncan's teammates rose to the occasion many times in the finals; where were Kobe's? (without Shaquille?)

[White Chocolate]

Not so much, Duncan won more, but was the worse player. Garnett had as good of defense, hustle and basically did everything Duncan did and more. The reason people see Duncan as better is because he has had better teams. This is true of alot of players. If you give Garnett the same teams as Duncan from 02-05 he might give you three straight championships. Look what he did with some of those horrific teams in the early thousands.


Garnett was the better individual player. He was more skilled, yes. Duncan was the better team player. Duncan has proven to be a winner, he has proven to come through in the clutch, and he has proven to be a defensive beast when the time is called. Even with Garnett being more skilled individually, Duncan was the better team player, leader, and was more clutch.

[EMERE]

Duncan won all 4 while being the head hancho and anchoring the team's defense. Kobe was second fiddle for 3 of the 4.





During the Lakers 3-peat, they had players that understood their role just like the Spurs players(Fisher, Fox, Horry). For the majority of Kobe's career with the Lakers, they were a great team. It was only a 2-3 year period where they were mediocre.





Duncan is 3/4 in Finals MVP. Kobe is 1/4.





No one is disagreeing that Duncan is below MJ.





At present, yes. Kobe is younger and big men often tend to decline faster. As for overall careers, Duncan will be the GOAT PF. He will be above Kobe.





People love Duncan because he is a winner, leader, humble, and turned down $40 million so the Spurs could sign other players. He is a team player and an even better person.So let me get this straight just because Duncan is more humble and a good person his the better player?:roll: :roll: basketball fans just crack me up. Can you get more girly than this?:roll:you people don't even know basketball players life, thats what cracks me up about basketball fans they care what players do outside of basketball.

[White Chocolate]

Duncan's teammates rose to the occasion many times in the finals; where were Kobe's? (without Shaquille?)


2000 title clinching game- Rice(16/6)
2001 title clinching game- Fox(20/6/6), Fisher(18/3/3/2), Horry(7/6 off the bench)
2002 title clinching game- Horry(12/6/4/2), Fisher(13/5/4), George(11/6 off the bench)


Kobe's teammates rose to the occassion.

[White Chocolate]

So let me get this straight just because Duncan is more humble and a good person his the better player?:roll: :roll: basketball fans just crack me up. Can you get more girly than this?:roll:you people don't even know basketball players life, thats what cracks me up about basketball fans they care what players do outside of basketball.


Thanks for reading the rest of the post. Another example of a casual fan.

[magnax1]

Garnett was the better individual player. He was more skilled, yes. Duncan was the better team player. Duncan has proven to be a winner, he has proven to come through in the clutch, and he has proven to be a defensive beast when the time is called. Even with Garnett being more skilled individually, Duncan was the better team player, leader, and was more clutch.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
A better leader and maybe more clutch but in no way was/is a better team player. People have forgotten so quickly how good KG was, and how much he made his team better. Like I said before just go look at what he did with those teams in the early thousands. He made those teams.

[Duncan21formvp]

On your all-time list of great NBA players, do you currently have Kobe ahead of Duncan? If so, why? If not, why?

Not even close.

Kobe is in the 15-18 range while Duncan is top 6.

[Story Up]

Thanks for reading the rest of the post. Another example of a casual fan.

Re-read your posts and then tell me you aren't sounding like a hypocrite.
Kobe hasn't done "nothing" without a good defensive big?
Tell me what exactly has Duncan done without a terrific supporting cast?

Duncan has had so much help in his championship runs, Kobe minus Shaquille had players fold on him time and time again.

[Allstar24]

Most sports analysts, coaches and players have Kobe ahead of Duncan already. So it doesn't take much to figure out that Kobe will be higher than Duncan on the all-time list by the end of his career.

[Duncan21formvp]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

Couldn't even win with Shaq, Malone and Payton, 3 other top 25 guys all time.


Duncan made Manu and Parker and don't say he didn't because Manu was the 57th pick and Parker 29th pick and Bowen wasn't even drafted.

[Story Up]

Not even close.

Kobe is in the 15-18 range while Duncan is top 6.

Jordan, Shaquille, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem.
The only player I'd put Duncan above is Hakeem, he is not better then any of the other players.

[White Chocolate]

Re-read your posts and then tell me you aren't sounding like a hypocrite.
Kobe hasn't done "nothing" without a good defensive big?
Tell me what exactly has Duncan done without a terrific supporting cast?

Duncan has had so much help in his championship runs, Kobe minus Shaquille had players fold on him time and time again.


Duncan had minimal help, if any in 2003. You obviously chose to ignore the help Kobe received from players such as Robert Horry, Rick Fox, and Derek Fisher. You make Kobe out to be some type of God-like figure, when in reality, he wasn't even the go to guy for 3 of his titles.

[Showtime]

1) Kobe has 4 rings, how is Duncan a better winner? (They both won 4 titles)

Why should I even address somebody who can't grasp the meaning of "winning"? Just because they have the same number of rings doesn't mean they are equal winners. Duncan has proven to win with his teams on a far more consistent basis, as well as not fold in the finals. Once again: perfect finals record, never lost less than 50 games, always made the playoffs > ___.


2) Duncan consistently had better teammates around him sure, Kobe had to struggle for three years once Shaquille got traded.

Duncan's teams were consistent because HE made them consistent. He played with vastly varied casts of old, young, and mediocre, and he didn't always have stars around him. He was the cornerstone of the team who could take his team and win no matter who was around him. So please stop perpetuating the myth that Duncan has had great teammates his entire career, because that's not true.

And I'm not blaming Kobe for having bad teammates, I'm simply saying that in both players' careers, Duncan has done more to elevate his teams than Kobe. A prime example of this is Duncan's immediate impact. While Kobe took some time to adjust, Duncan took the Spurs to their first championship in his second season.


3) Sure Duncan led his team to the playoffs, it would be a shame if he couldn't hence he had terrific players around him and terrific coaching staff

Teammates have come and gone. The two stars that have been around him the past few years have developed from a time where they flaws and inconsistencies. The only constant for the Spurs since '98 has been Tim Duncan and Pop. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that Duncan has been the franchise cornerstone and key to that team's success. Why do you think that the spurs can plug in any number and variety of players around Duncan and win 50 games?


4) Duncan has lost plenty to LA/Kobe, who cares if he hasn't lost in the finals?

So, what you are saying is that winning head to head matchups against Kobe means more than winning NBA championships? Why am I talking to you again? Do they give out rings and trophies to Kobe for beating the spurs? I'm talking about if Kobe was superior to Duncan, then why has he contributed to his team losing in the finals, and Duncan hasn't? It matters very much that Duncan hasn't let his team lose a championship.


He didn't get finals MVP every time either. It's not like he was the only player that was wearing a Spurs jersey in those championship rounds.

No, but he was the MOST important player in those championship rounds. And the reason why he didn't get the 4th MVP was A) Parker had a great offensive series, and B) the voters in this era will always favor offensive excellence over defensive excellence. Duncan struggled at times offensively, but what he did do was rebound very well, defend the paint well, and helped control the game in those two areas. To suggest that Duncan is somehow inferior to Kobe because he has 3 finals MVP's instead of 4 is laughable.


5) Duncan is not better then Jordan just like Kobe is not better then Jordan, so him being the best ever at his position means very little when comparing the two players.

I disagree. Being one of the best big men ever, and the way he plays, impacts the game more than one of the best SG's ever. Because of the inherent differences in position, Duncan can impact the game in more areas than Kobe. So I think that Duncan's elite play on both ends is better than Kobe's play.


I have Kobe around the 11-15th place and Duncan 8th on my list, but Kobe is also younger and is currently the better player. I think by the end of their careers I see Kobe being ahead.

Well, if that's how you want to evaluate him, then fine. I don't think he's the better player right now even. Why? Because an injured Duncan carried his injured team (where Parker and Manu were both out during the season) with unproven or scrub players to yet another 50 win season, while Kobe could coast because of the moves of the front office. Next season, if Timmy is healthy enough to play 70+ games, I would choose him over Kobe.


Duncan is like basketball's Messiah, everyone loves him for some reason. He's definitely becoming overrated in my book.

Good thing I don't have to read your book.

[Story Up]

Well, if that's how you want to evaluate him, then fine. I don't think he's the better player right now even. Why? Because an injured Duncan carried his injured team (where Parker and Manu were both out during the season) with unproven or scrub players to yet another season, while Kobe could coast because of the moves of the front office. Next season, if Timmy is healthy enough to play 70+ games, I would choose him over Kobe.

I won't open your book either bud.
A player who clearly has more impact on the game today, winning a championship this past year isn't better then a guy who couldn't make it past the 1st round? WOW.

All those points you made about Duncan should be slapped right back in your face; because a player who this past season alone not only had a greater impact on the game but actually won a championship isn't better then a player who couldn't even carry his team past the 1st round according to you; should tell everyone just how biased you are. Oh my bad, you used that weak injury excuse. Seems like Duncan's been injured for the past 5 years, maybe it's time to realize Kobe is clearly better then Duncan. Has been for a while now.

[RedZiggyZag]

Re-read your posts and then tell me you aren't sounding like a hypocrite.
Kobe hasn't done "nothing" without a good defensive big?
Tell me what exactly has Duncan done without a terrific supporting cast?

Duncan has had so much help in his championship runs, Kobe minus Shaquille had players fold on him time and time again.
Sorry, Hate to burst your bubble, but Tim Duncan literally won a championship by himself in 2003, Nobody was an All-Star on his team then, only two other players have accomplished the same feature, Hakeem Olajuwon and Rick Barry, that's good company.

Let's review shall we?

The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. He led them past the 3 peat Lakers, going for 37 and 16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21, 20, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that, I don't recall Kobe ever dominating like that ever. This debate isn't even close.

[Duncan21formvp]

Why should I even address somebody who can't grasp the meaning of "winning"? Just because they have the same number of rings doesn't mean they are equal winners. Duncan has proven to win with his teams on a far more consistent basis, as well as not fold in the finals. Once again: perfect finals record, never lost less than 50 games, always made the playoffs > ___.



Duncan's teams were consistent because HE made them consistent. He played with vastly varied casts of old, young, and mediocre, and he didn't always have stars around him. He was the cornerstone of the team who could take his team and win no matter who was around him. So please stop perpetuating the myth that Duncan has had great teammates his entire career, because that's not true.

And I'm not blaming Kobe for having bad teammates, I'm simply saying that in both players' careers, Duncan has done more to elevate his teams than Kobe. A prime example of this is Duncan's immediate impact. While Kobe took some time to adjust, Duncan took the Spurs to their first championship in his second season.



Teammates have come and gone. The two stars that have been around him the past few years have developed from a time where they flaws and inconsistencies. The only constant for the Spurs since '98 has been Tim Duncan and Pop. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that Duncan has been the franchise cornerstone and key to that team's success. Why do you think that the spurs can plug in any number and variety of players around Duncan and win 50 games?



So, what you are saying is that winning head to head matchups against Kobe means more than winning NBA championships? Why am I talking to you again? Do they give out rings and trophies to Kobe for beating the spurs? I'm talking about if Kobe was superior to Duncan, then why has he contributed to his team losing in the finals, and Duncan hasn't? It matters very much that Duncan hasn't let his team lose a championship.



No, but he was the MOST important player in those championship rounds. And the reason why he didn't get the 4th MVP was A) Parker had a great offensive series, and B) the voters in this era will always favor offensive excellence over defensive excellence. Duncan struggled at times offensively, but what he did do was rebound very well, defend the paint well, and helped control the game in those two areas. To suggest that Duncan is somehow inferior to Kobe because he has 3 finals MVP's instead of 4 is laughable.



I disagree. Being one of the best big men ever, and the way he plays, impacts the game more than one of the best SG's ever. Because of the inherent differences in position, Duncan can impact the game in more areas than Kobe. So I think that Duncan's elite play on both ends is better than Kobe's play.



Well, if that's how you want to evaluate him, then fine. I don't think he's the better player right now even. Why? Because an injured Duncan carried his injured team (where Parker and Manu were both out during the season) with unproven or scrub players to yet another 50 win season, while Kobe could coast because of the moves of the front office. Next season, if Timmy is healthy enough to play 70+ games, I would choose him over Kobe.



Good thing I don't have to read your book.
:cheers: :applause:

[knickscity]

Jordan, Shaquille, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, Hakeem.
The only player I'd put Duncan above is Hakeem, he is not better then any of the other players.


I really don't think I would put Duncan over Dream.

Duncan might be the near perfect team player.

I was most impressed that he gave up cheese so that the team can still keep a very good squad around him.

But comparing a PF to a SG just isn't fair to either player.

Kobe may very well be the second best guard ever.

I don't think anyone can say that Duncan is the second best big man ever.

Let's keep it real here.

[Story Up]

Why should I even address somebody who can't grasp the meaning of "winning"? Just because they have the same number of rings doesn't mean they are equal winners. Duncan has proven to win with his teams on a far more consistent basis, as well as not fold in the finals. Once again: perfect finals record, never lost less than 50 games, always made the playoffs > ___.


Duncan has won on a more consistent basis because he had a better supporting cast on a more consistent basis. Kobe led his team to 57 and 65 wins the last two years with a good supporting cast.

The BIG picture here is Duncan has had a great team around him since he was drafted and guess what a decade later he still has a damn good team around him. Yeah I won't argue that Duncan has played better then Kobe in the championship rounds, and I won't argue that right now Duncan is definitely ahead of Kobe on the all-time list.

[All Net]

I find it very tough to compare a guard with a forward in this era...so tough to pick due to their roles being different and the defenses having to defend both in different ways.

[Story Up]

Dodging this post, Story Up? :rolleyes:

I'm not dodging your fabrication. I am playing a poker tournament online right now and don't have time to fully reply to your post.

I love the way you called Jackson a nobody in your post though, he's only made countless clutch 4th quarter buckets for that team.

[Showtime]

A player who clearly has more impact on the game today, winning a championship this past year isn't better then a guy who couldn't make it past the 1st round? WOW.

Way to loose reading comprehension. What did I say in regards to Duncan? That his team, without Parker and Manu for the beginning of the season, and filling in with unproven or scrub players, was still able to remain at the top of the conference, and battle for the SW division lead. He kept them afloat, and helped carry his team to another 50 win season. At the end of the year, his legs were clearly an issue. He had to rest, and he was obviously not 100%, and injuries impacted their playoff series. That is why I inserted the condition of Duncan playing 70 games at 100%.

And just because Kobe won a ring doesn't automatically make him the player who has the most impact.


All those points you made about Duncan should be slapped right back in your face; because a player who this past season alone not only had a greater impact on the game but actually won a championship isn't better then a player who couldn't even carry his team past the 1st round according to you;

1. Kobe doesn't have a greater impact. You have yet to explain how.
2. Winning a championship doesn't proove #1.
3. I already explained how Duncan, when healthy, carried the team, but health caused the spurs to break down. WHEN HEALTHY, he has a greater impact. Try to grasp that. Obviously an injured Duncan isn't better than a healthy Kobe.


should tell everyone just how biased you are. Oh my bad, you used that weak injury excuse.

Injury excuse? Are you serious? The guy had to take games off, which he rarely EVER does because of his legs. Meanwhile, Kobe fans want to cry about a finger that is a NON ISSUE. How can health, which can limit how effective a player can be, NOT matter? Do you seriously expect us to equally evaluate the effectiveness of a player when he's injured compared to when not? At the begging of the season, when Duncan was healthy, he was better IMO than Kobe at any point last season. And you call me biased? It's bias that makes you totally ignore what he did for the majority of last season.

And how can I be bias if I used the same argument about carrying a team in support of Kobe winning the MVP in 2006 over Nash? Kobe had a bigger impact on his team and did more during that season. I think a HEALTHY Duncan does more than Kobe at this point. But nobody can control his body breaking down.


Seems like Duncan's been injured for the past 5 years, maybe it's time to realize Kobe is clearly better then Duncan. Has been for a while now.
Well, I disagree. He's been arguably the BEST big man on both ends of the floor. He's not become a support player like D-Rob's last few years, or Rice's last few with LA. He's still the MOST important and best player on teams that continuously win 50 games and make the playoffs, and he doesn't need his front office to build the deepest team in the league to do it.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I find it very tough to compare a guard with a forward in this era...so tough to pick due to their roles being different and the defenses having to defend both in different ways.
Tis very true. :cheers:

For all the common man shall not forget the fact that in 2001 & again in 2005 the league rules were altered to not only help the Bryant type swingman guards on both ends of the floor, but also to hinder the Duncan type center/forwards on both ends. Not fair at all. For this has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, been a game dominated by post players, that is prior to 2002 & ultimately 2006. Jordan spent at least 50% of his time in the post. Earvin Johnson did as well with Jabbar, Bird & McHale, and numerous more.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kobe may very well be the second best guard ever.

He's not close to Robertson, Jordan, or Johnson.

[Story Up]

He's not close to Robertson, Jordan, or Johnson.

Robertson is such an overrated player.

[knickscity]

Dodging this post, Story Up? :rolleyes:


I do think that both players respectively are great in their own positions.

But let me ask this....

The 2003 Spurs team was the best team Duncan had been on.

There was at least 3 more players on that team to have double digit scoring.

Almost the entire 8-9 rotation could have scored in double figures.

Their 12 man active lists featured guys who had been playoff tested.

Offensive they were great, they didn't have slouches on the team either.

They were full of seasoned vets, role players and stars in the making.

Why hasn't he won back to back?

Better yet even with the great cast he has played with his whole career, why hasn't he even made to the finals back to back???

Duncan has never had a bad squad, or even mediocre.

But my main argument about Duncan is when people including yourself talk about Duncan they call him the GOAT PF, when speaking of his greatness.

Yet even though he is a PF he hasn't been in that position on the court.

He plays the center spot. And he ain't the GOAT in that area at all.

[SCY]

Duncan's supporting cast in '03 wasn't all that much better than what Kobe had post-Shaq. A 20 year old Parker that showed flashes but struggled in the playoffs, some inefficient chucks in S-Jax and rookie Manu, 2 solid bigs in D-Rob/Rose. No one on his team was as good as Lamar Odom, that's for sure.

Duncan had plenty of help in the other championships, but it's not quite like having Shaq is it?

[Showtime]

Tis very true. :cheers:

For all the common man shall not forget the fact that in 2001 & again in 2005 the league rules were altered to not only help the Bryant type swingman guards on both ends of the floor, but also to hinder the Duncan type center/forwards on both ends. Not fair at all. For this has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, been a game dominated by post players, that is prior to 2002 & 2006. Jordan spent at least 50% of his time in the post. Earvin Johnson did as well with Jabbar, Bird & McHale, and numerous more.
Which totally changes how a big must defend. Duncan is fantastic at defending both big centers on the block, as well as the pick and roll with smaller forwards like David West. Many people praise KG for his versatility, but I can't seem to remember an elite big since Hakeem that can guard smaller, athletic forwards and bigger centers like Shaq.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Robertson is such an overrated player.
Yet he has the 7th most dominant peak in association history.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Which totally changes how a big must defend. Duncan is fantastic at defending both big centers on the block, as well as the pick and roll with smaller forwards like David West. Many people praise KG for his versatility, but I can't seem to remember an elite big since Hakeem that can guard smaller, athletic forwards and bigger centers like Shaq.
:cheers:

[Story Up]

Yet he has the 7th most dominant peak in association history.

His numbers are exactly what makes him so overrated.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Tis not about numbers, but rather ability, and Robertson was the top all around performer the league has seen. A hybrid of Paul Pierce & Kobe Bryant with the impact of LeBron James.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Duncan will be better than Kobe when he can take players in the vein of Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown to the playoffs,

starting alongside him.


The problem is,


hes never had to due to his front office and most likely never will.


"oh, oh, uh, oh, oh, the right stuff"

:hammertime:

[BlackMamba24]

bryant is already the best player this decade and will win one next year...


Duncan will be better than Kobe when he can take players in the vein of Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown to the playoffs,

starting alongside him.


The problem is,


hes never had to due to his front office and most likely never will.


"oh, oh, uh, oh, oh, the right stuff"

:hammertime:
:hammertime:

[knickscity]

He's not close to Robertson, Jordan, or Johnson.

Kobe isn't close to any of these guys????

I'm not even a Kobe fan by any shot but he is considered better than the Big O, notches under Jordan, and no one compares him to Magic for two reasons.

One they are both Lakers.

Magic just did things on the court most players never could, Magic and Kobe are different animals.

And what I said is that Kobe may be the second best guard ever.

My reason for saying that is due to the fact he shadowed arguably one the best centers ever to play the game for most of his career and didn't look to shabby doing so.

[Mdog1]

bryant is already the best player this decade and will win one next year...


:hammertime:
Bryant is the best of this decade? So Shaq and duncan are jsut after thoughts? OMG why is ISH so stupid when it comes to Kobe. Great player, will be top 10, but Kobe was not and is not the best player of this decade. He was the best player in the league for 2, possibly 3 years and now is no longer such. Shaq 3 rings, 3 finals MVPs, MVP as the main character in the play and another as a sidekick, Duncan 3 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 2 MVPs as the main character, Kobe 1 ring, 1 finals MVP, 1 CAA as the main character, 3 rings as a sidekick. So tell me again how Kobe is the best player this decade? Unless you are going simply by scoring? Because that is all Kobe Bryant is.

[JohnnySic]

Enough already. :banghead:

Duncan is higher because his team has been a contender every year he's been in the league. That's the value of a great big man.

Put prime Duncan on any team and you have an automatic contender. Put him on the Knicks - automatic contender. Put Kobe on the Knicks and you have a circus.

End Thread.

[All Net]

Bryant is the best of this decade? So Shaq and duncan are jsut after thoughts? OMG why is ISH so stupid when it comes to Kobe. Great player, will be top 10, but Kobe was not and is not the best player of this decade. He was the best player in the league for 2, possibly 3 years and now is no longer such. Shaq 3 rings, 3 finals MVPs, MVP as the main character in the play and another as a sidekick, Duncan 3 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 2 MVPs as the main character, Kobe 1 ring, 1 finals MVP, 1 CAA as the main character, 3 rings as a sidekick. So tell me again how Kobe is the best player this decade? Unless you are going simply by scoring? Because that is all Kobe Bryant is.

You can't blame Kobe for being Shaq's team-mate and to say sidekick is implying he was simply helping L.A...many times Kobe was HUGE during the Shaq era and to say all Kobe is about is scoring is laughable. Saying Duncan is better through the course of their careers? fine but to downplay what Kobe did playing with Shaq is idiotic.

Chances are Kobe wins a few more titles as the main man and this debate will look even more interesting.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Bryant is the best of this decade? So Shaq and duncan are jsut after thoughts? OMG why is ISH so stupid when it comes to Kobe. Great player, will be top 10, but Kobe was not and is not the best player of this decade. He was the best player in the league for 2, possibly 3 years and now is no longer such. Shaq 3 rings, 3 finals MVPs, MVP as the main character in the play and another as a sidekick, Duncan 3 rings, 2 finals MVPs, 2 MVPs as the main character, Kobe 1 ring, 1 finals MVP, 1 CAA as the main character, 3 rings as a sidekick. So tell me again how Kobe is the best player this decade? Unless you are going simply by scoring? Because that is all Kobe Bryant is.

When did Shaq or Duncan take players of the caliber of Parker, Walton and Brown as starters to the playoffs?


"who shot ya? Separate the weak from the obsolete"

:hammertime:

[White Chocolate]

Put prime Duncan on any team and you have an automatic contender. Put him on the Knicks - automatic contender.


As much as I like Duncan, even he couldn't be a Christ-like presence on the Knicks.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Enough already. :banghead:

Duncan is higher because his team has been a contender every year he's been in the league. That's the value of a great big man.

Put prime Duncan on any team and you have an automatic contender. Put him on the Knicks - automatic contender. Put Kobe on the Knicks and you have a circus.

End Thread.


Sorry , but the thread is still open.

When has Timmy taken the players with the talents of Parker, Walton and Brown as his starters to the playoffs?


"Its on *****, **** all that bickering beef
I can hear sweat trickling down your cheek
Your heartbeat soun like sasquatch feet
Thundering, shaking the concrete"

:hammertime:

[Mdog1]

Kobe isn't close to any of these guys????

I'm not even a Kobe fan by any shot but he is considered better than the Big O, notches under Jordan, and no one compares him to Magic for two reasons.

One they are both Lakers.

Magic just did things on the court most players never could, Magic and Kobe are different animals.

And what I said is that Kobe may be the second best guard ever.

My reason for saying that is due to the fact he shadowed arguably one the best centers ever to play the game for most of his career and didn't look to shabby doing so.
Kobe may be the second best SG ever, but that is suspect at best. I personally believe that may be Jerry West, at least for now in the future Kobe may take those reins.

[Big#50]

1) Kobe has 4 rings, how is Duncan a better winner? (They both won 4 titles)
2) Duncan consistently had better teammates around him sure, Kobe had to struggle for three years once Shaquille got traded.
3) Sure Duncan led his team to the playoffs, it would be a shame if he couldn't hence he had terrific players around him and terrific coaching staff
4) Duncan has lost plenty to LA/Kobe, who cares if he hasn't lost in the finals? He didn't get finals MVP every time either. It's not like he was the only player that was wearing a Spurs jersey in those championship rounds.
5) Duncan is not better then Jordan just like Kobe is not better then Jordan, so him being the best ever at his position means very little when comparing the two players.

I have Kobe around the 11-15th place and Duncan 8th on my list, but Kobe is also younger and is currently the better player. I think by the end of their careers I see Kobe being ahead.

Duncan is like basketball's Messiah, everyone loves him for some reason. He's definitely becoming overrated in my book.
Duncan is also a top 3 defender of all time in my book.
Pippen
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe doesn't even make a top 10 al time defender list.

[RedZiggyZag]

Sorry, but losing two Finals and missing the playoffs in the prime of his career does not place Kobe on the same status as Duncan. Tim Duncan would have never lost a Finals with 3 HOF teammates at his disposal, nor would he have ever missed the playoffs in his prime, regardless of who his teammates were because Duncan just got the job done.

This is more of an insult to Duncan than a compliment to Kobe.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Seriously, it isn't even close. Anybody with a sane and rational mind knows that Tim Duncan is ahead of Kobe all time. Duncan's impact on the court is far greater than any impact Kobe ever has, both offensively and defensively. Since he came into the league, Tim Duncan has been the #1 go to guy on offense, while anchoring his team's defense as well. Hell, he led his team to a championship in only his second year. His perfect 4-0 record in the Finals speaks for itself. If we include all the other factors such as team chemistry, attitude, etc, Duncan blows Kobe out of the water even more. Duncan is probably one of the most humble players ever. He doesn't need to go out and act like a jack@$$ and be immature to show everyone how good he is. He keeps his mouth shut and lets his game do all the talking. He doesn't get in your face and act retarded, he just consistently kicks your @$$ night in and night out. That's what real greatness is.

[Mdog1]

You can't blame Kobe for being Shaq's team-mate and to say sidekick is implying he was simply helping L.A...many times Kobe was HUGE during the Shaq era and to say all Kobe is about is scoring is laughable. Saying Duncan is better through the course of their careers? fine but to downplay what Kobe did playing with Shaq is idiotic.

Chances are Kobe wins a few more titles as the main man and this debate will look even more interesting.
I agree Kobe could very well finish higher than Duncan, but we are talking of now and as of now I find the question laughable. No I wasn't trying to down play Kobes 3 rings with Shaq, but it has to be mentioned that he did in fact win them with Shaq as the leader. I was moreso trying to debunk the rediculous thought that Kobe is the best player this decade because that is just idiotic.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Sorry, but losing two Finals and missing the playoffs in the prime of his career does not place Kobe on the same status as Duncan. Tim Duncan would have never lost a Finals with 3 HOF teammates at his disposal, nor would he have ever missed the playoffs in his prime, regardless of who his teammates were because Duncan just got the job done.

This is more of an insult to Duncan than a compliment to Kobe.


Would Tim Duncan even make the playoffs with Parker, Walton and Brown staring alongside him?

Has he even had to deal with having that type of "talent" around him?


"I make your skin chafe, rashes on the masses
Bumps and bruises, blunts and landcruisers
Big poppa smash fools, bash fools
****** mad because I know that cash rules"
:hammertime:

[Mdog1]

When did Shaq or Duncan take players of the caliber of Parker, Walton and Brown as starters to the playoffs?


"who shot ya? Separate the weak from the obsolete"

:hammertime:
he won a title with players of similar caliber. Of course the Spurs were better but not by a ton.

[KAJ=GOAT]

he won a title with players of similar caliber. Of course the Spurs were better but not by a ton.


What players started alongside Tim Duncan that are the caliber of

Smush Parker
Luke Walton
Kwame Brown?


"Clip to tec, respect I demand it
Slip and break the, 11th commandment"

:hammertime:

[All Net]

Sorry, but losing two Finals and missing the playoffs in the prime of his career does not place Kobe on the same status as Duncan. Tim Duncan would have never lost a Finals with 3 HOF teammates at his disposal, nor would he have ever missed the playoffs in his prime, regardless of who his teammates were because Duncan just got the job done.

This is more of an insult to Duncan than a compliment to Kobe.

So Duncan would of made the playoffs with guys like Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting? find it hard to believe...Duncan needs soild shooters and mid-range shooters to suit his style. That Laker team was horrible.

[knickscity]

he won a title with players of similar caliber. Of course the Spurs were better but not by a ton.

When??? Explain??

[Story Up]

Sorry, but losing two Finals and missing the playoffs in the prime of his career does not place Kobe on the same status as Duncan. Tim Duncan would have never lost a Finals with 3 HOF teammates at his disposal, nor would he have ever missed the playoffs in his prime, regardless of who his teammates were because Duncan just got the job done.

This is more of an insult to Duncan than a compliment to Kobe.

The only time Kobe missed the playoffs was when he missed games due to injury and his team lost their head coach due to illness that year. Kobe has missed the playoffs ONCE in his entire career, cut the guy a break already.

How many times has Kobe beat Duncan and his team in the playoffs? At least 3-4 times, he has a better head to head matchup with Duncan in the playoffs too. (that includes without Shaquille on LA)

PS - And why are you acting like Kobe had 3 HOF'ers? Malone was injured and Payton was useless against Detroit, neither of them helped out much. Shaquille had his hip and toe bothering him, LA that year were really injured that's something people forget to mention.

Kobe had a terrible performance, no excuse there.

[triangleoffense]

unfair quesiton. One is a guard and the other is obviously a C who's officially labeled as a PF. Kobe haters try to compare any big to kobe just to say they are better but one things for sure Kobe is definitely way better than any guard/forward the last decade.

[knickscity]

The only time Kobe missed the playoffs was when he missed games due to injury and his team lost their head coach due to illness that year. Kobe has missed the playoffs ONCE in his entire career, cut the guy a break already.

How many times has Kobe beat Duncan and his team in the playoffs? At least 3-4 times, he has a better head to head matchup with Duncan in the playoffs too. (that includes without Shaquille on LA)

Head to head??? That's why I don't compare players like that.

Kobe's team has had the better of Duncan's.

That's true.

[Story Up]

Head to head??? That's why I don't compare players like that.

Kobe's team has had the better of Duncan's.

That's true.

So then why didn't you intervene when the other guy was saying how Duncan never missed the playoffs and never lost in the NBA finals, I'm pretty sure Duncan had 11 other guys beside him. :rolleyes:

[Mdog1]

When??? Explain??
It has been stated in this thread that 03 he had a rookie Manu, 2nd year parker, and a vastly declined DRob. No the team wasn't that bad obviously because they won the title, but Kobes team wasn't that bad either. LO is better than any player Bron has ever played with including Mo and look what Bron has done.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Sure got quiet around here once it was let known that Tim Duncan has never had to have bums starting next to him in regards to him "never missing the playoffs".


Well yea, when you have players who are up to par in the pro game,

of course your chances for making the playoffs are much better.

Thats what I love about this place,
its so convenient to leave out all the facts to try and make a point.


"So you know where to tell jake, lame *****
Brave *****, turned front page *****"


:hammertime:

[All Net]

It has been stated in this thread that 03 he had a rookie Manu, 2nd year parker, and a vastly declined DRob. No the team wasn't that bad obviously because they won the title, but Kobes team wasn't that bad either. LO is better than any player Bron has ever played with including Mo and look what Bron has done.

That Spurs team had amazing chemistry and amazing defense. They had all the tools.

[knickscity]

It has been stated in this thread that 03 he had a rookie Manu, 2nd year parker, and a vastly declined DRob. No the team wasn't that bad obviously because they won the title, but Kobes team wasn't that bad either. LO is better than any player Bron has ever played with including Mo and look what Bron has done.

That 03 team was stacked with talent and season role players. Go look at the roster.

Like I said before there were at least 3 other guys on the team with double digit scoring.

One of the best wing defenders at that time in Bowen.....
One of the top in career 3pt shooting in Kerr.

But why doesn't Ducan's team ever repeat.

maybe because he keeps losing to Kobe.

[KAJ=GOAT]

It has been stated in this thread that 03 he had a rookie Manu, 2nd year parker, and a vastly declined DRob. No the team wasn't that bad obviously because they won the title, but Kobes team wasn't that bad either. LO is better than any player Bron has ever played with including Mo and look what Bron has done.


all of those players are better than anything Kobe worked with in 05 and 06.

Quit trying to make it like Duncan was playing with scrubs. He wasn't. Kobe was,

and still made the playoffs.

"NO"


:hammertime:

[RedZiggyZag]

So Duncan would of made the playoffs with guys like Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Luke Walton starting? find it hard to believe...Duncan needs soild shooters and mid-range shooters to suit his style. That Laker team was horrible.
All you are asking him to do is make the playoffs right? You do realize he's never missed the playoffs in his entire career right? Sorry, but he would've made the playoffs, I don't know whether or not he would've gotten far with that team, but if all you are asking for is to clinch the playoffs, he would get the job done.


Head to head??? That's why I don't compare players like that.

Kobe's team has had the better of Duncan's.

That's true.
Kobe apologists here.

[Lebron23]

No

3 NBA Finals MVP > 1 Finals MVP
2x NBA MVP > 1 NBA MVP

Tim Duncan is a much better playoffs performer than Kobe, and the Spurs are the winningest team in this decade.

[All Net]

All you are asking him to do is make the playoffs right? You do realize he's never missed the playoffs in his entire career right? Sorry, but he would've made the playoffs, I don't know whether or not he would've gotten far with that team, but if all you are asking for is to clinch the playoffs, he would get the job done.


With that line-up? seriously? no he wouldn't. Duncan's game he needs good shooters and guys who can finish. Most importantly defensive minded guys who will play the system. Those 3 starting would not help his needs. Certainly not in the west.

Most superstars would of really struggled to make the post season with that team.

[RedZiggyZag]

With that line-up? seriously? no he wouldn't. Duncan's game he needs good shooters and guys who can finish. Most importantly defensive minded guys who will play the system. Those 3 starting would not help his needs. Certainly not in the west.

Most superstars would of really struggled to make the post season with that team.
You act if Duncan was some type of player that couldn't score whenever he wanted, when in reality he could. Tim Duncan could close out games, start out games, run the offense, have the offense run through him, he literally could do anything out there for a big man. Duncan only had one weakness, which was not even a big one FT shooting, that's it.... I hope you realize that Duncan just speeded up the development of Manu and Parker, which is why they are All-Stars today.

If you want Duncan to get you 30 points one night, he would get you it, if you want him to get 10 assists the next he would get you it, and along with that he would give you 10+ RPG and 2+ BPG consistently, sorry but Duncan would lead that team to the playoffs, especially in his prime.

[All Net]

You act if Duncan was some type of player that couldn't score whenever he wanted, when in reality he could. Tim Duncan could close out games, start out games, run the offense, have the offense run through him, he literally could do anything out there

The same as Kobe then.

Fact is Duncan makes young talented players develop faster than most due to the looks he gets them but untalented guys who can't even make simple plays? no...not even god could do that.

[RedZiggyZag]

The same as Kobe then.

Fact is Duncan makes young talented players develop faster than most due to the looks he gets them but untalented guys who can't even make simple plays? no...not even god could do that.
I'll give you the same post, that I just posted earlier in this thead.



The Admiral in his final season on his last legs. Manu a rookie who came off the bench and did very little. Malik Rose getting major minutes, along with Stephen Jackson when he was a nobody. Tony Parker a second year PG with deer in the headlights syndrome in the playoffs. Duncan led that crew to a title. He led them past the 3 peat Lakers, going for 37 and 16 on the Lakers own home court to finish them off. He then almost had a quadruple double in the last game of the finals, going for 21, 20, 10 dimes and 8 blocks. Meanwhile, the guy he was guarding, K-Mart, went 3-19 for 6 points. It doesn't get much more dominating than that, I don't recall Kobe ever dominating like that ever. This debate isn't even close.

Kobe never came close to a performance as dominating like that, especially when it matters the most....THE PLAYOFFS.

[KAJ=GOAT]

You act if Duncan was some type of player that couldn't score whenever he wanted, when in reality he could. Tim Duncan could close out games, start out games, run the offense, have the offense run through him, he literally could do anything out there for a big man. Duncan only had one weakness, which was not even a big one FT shooting, that's it.... I hope you realize that Duncan just speeded up the development of Manu and Parker, which is why they are All-Stars today.

If you want Duncan to get you 30 points one night, he would get you it, if you want him to get 10 assists the next he would get you it, and along with that he would give you 10+ RPG and 2+ BPG consistently, sorry but Duncan would lead that team to the playoffs, especially in his prime.
If you want Tim Duncan to get you a repeat championship,

can he do it?


"I woke up in the morning"


:hammertime:

[knickscity]

All you are asking him to do is make the playoffs right? You do realize he's never missed the playoffs in his entire career right? Sorry, but he would've made the playoffs, I don't know whether or not he would've gotten far with that team, but if all you are asking for is to clinch the playoffs, he would get the job done.


Kobe apologists here.

I haven't apologized for Kobe at all.

But everyone has put Duncan out there like he is the most invincible player of this decade.

Where was Duncan during the Lakers 3peat to start the decade????

2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008, 2009........

All those years featured a team that Kobe played on in the finals ....

Kobe lost in 04 to a team that played better team ball, but he was there not Duncan.

08 he played against a team that was just plain better, with three HOF's on it, but once again he was there, not Duncan.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2009 he won it all.


Do you see a trend going on???

He might be the only GOAT that can defend his title, or even yet get there to do so.

And Duncan has always had a very good team around him.

And everyone on this thread knows I am a diehard Knicks fan.

I don't support Kobe in any way.

I am also a basketball fan.

[All Net]

I'll give you the same post, that I just posted earlier in this thead.




Kobe never came close to a performance as dominating like that, especially when it matters the most....THE PLAYOFFS.

I wasn't comparing the two who stating Kobe has had a better career or not I'm stating Duncan would not of done any better than Kobe did with that supporting cast. In Kobe's defense though in Duncan's recent finals displays he hasn't exactly had much comp with the teams the Spurs beat. You don't seem to want to mention the performances Kobe has come up with time and time again against the Spurs over the years.

[RedZiggyZag]

If you want Tim Duncan to get you a repeat championship,

can he do it?


"I woke up in the morning"


:hammertime:
So even though, Duncan won 4 championships and was the Finals MVP in 3 of the 4 when he really should have been the Finals MVP in all of them, the fact that he never won titles back to back makes him inferior to Kobe? A player that hasn't even proved to win a title TWICE as the lead dog? Sorry, my logic doesn't work that way. 4 championships as the leader > 4 championships as the leader in one of them.



And everyone on this thread knows I am a diehard Knicks fan.

I don't support Kobe in any way.

I am also a basketball fan.
Actually, when I said that to you, I actually meant to say YOU were talking TO apologists.

[knickscity]

Actually, when I said that to you, I actually meant to say YOU were talking TO apologists.

Ok, I'll give you a pass on that. My bad.

But why hasn't Duncan been able to at least go back to back finals appearances???

He has always had the squad to do so.

[KAJ=GOAT]

So even though, Duncan won 4 championships and was the Finals MVP in 3 of the 4 when he really should have been the Finals MVP in all of them, the fact that he never won titles back to back makes him inferior to Kobe? A player that hasn't even proved to win a title TWICE as the lead dog? Sorry, my logic doesn't work that way. 4 championships as the leader > 4 championships as the leader in one of them.


Actually, when I said that to you, I actually meant to say YOU were talking TO apologists.
No, what makes him inferior in regards to this discussion,

is that hes never had to have these types of players as starters,

Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Luke Walton, Chucky Atkins and Jumain Jones.


Give Kobe the same kind of talent Duncan has had througout his entire career, and guess what?

he wins. Not speculation, fact.

I don't base this discussion solely on championships won but rather the circumstances involved.

You should try incorporating that into your logic.

"Don't provoke Kris no joke this".

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

This thread is blasphemous!!!!

Duncan didn't score 81 pts did he?

You guys are just a bunch of Duncan jockers and Kobe haters.

[amfirst]

Kobe is ahead in my list. Duncan is great but Kobe's prime is much longer than Duncan. And Kobe usually owns the Spurs head to head. Plus, he has greater impact in a game.

Put Duncan next to Kwame and Smush and he will prob look as bad as KG on the Wolves.

[Big#50]

I haven't apologized for Kobe at all.

But everyone has put Duncan out there like he is the most invincible player of this decade.

Where was Duncan during the Lakers 3peat to start the decade????

2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2008, 2009........

All those years featured a team that Kobe played on in the finals ....

Kobe lost in 04 to a team that played better team ball, but he was there not Duncan.

08 he played against a team that was just plain better, with three HOF's on it, but once again he was there, not Duncan.

2000, 2001, 2002, 2009 he won it all.


Do you see a trend going on???

He might be the only GOAT that can defend his title, or even yet get there to do so.

And Duncan has always had a very good team around him.

And everyone on this thread knows I am a diehard Knicks fan.

I don't support Kobe in any way.

I am also a basketball fan.
Duncan lost twice to the 3peat Lakers team. He dominated them as a matter of fact. The Lakers just had more weapons.

[amfirst]

Duncan lost twice to the 3peat Lakers team. He dominated them as a matter of fact. The Lakers just had more weapons.

Yea, and twice to a Kobe lead Lakers team. Not to mention many more in the near future.

[phoenix18]

SMH @ all the Laker fans fighting a losing battle.

[knickscity]

Duncan lost twice to the 3peat Lakers team. He dominated them as a matter of fact. The Lakers just had more weapons.

You can't dominate someone and lose. But answer my other question.....

Why can't the GOAT PF defend his crown???? Or at least get there???

[amfirst]

You act if Duncan was some type of player that couldn't score whenever he wanted, when in reality he could. Tim Duncan could close out games, start out games, run the offense, have the offense run through him, he literally could do anything out there for a big man. Duncan only had one weakness, which was not even a big one FT shooting, that's it.... I hope you realize that Duncan just speeded up the development of Manu and Parker, which is why they are All-Stars today.

If you want Duncan to get you 30 points one night, he would get you it, if you want him to get 10 assists the next he would get you it, and along with that he would give you 10+ RPG and 2+ BPG consistently, sorry but Duncan would lead that team to the playoffs, especially in his prime.

Duncan can score, but he can't sustain it as long as Kobe. He would get tried and start missing. We seen that a lot against the Lakers. Scoring in the post takes a lot of energy. If he could, he would, but he can't score at will for long. He is more of a system player that requires good pieces around.

[phoenix18]

You can't dominate someone and lose. But answer my other question.....

Why can't the GOAT PF defend his crown???? Or at least get there???
Wait, you a criticizing a player that has won all four Finals appearances because he has not repeated? SMH. Dude, come on.

[U got Served]

All I can say is:

*shakes head*

[D-Rose]

I'd have Duncan above as of now but everyone does seem to put too much emphasis on the "titles as the #1" thing, if so Kobe>>>>Oscar. Kobe was a star/superstar in the 3peat as well, not some role player.

Let's not forget Duncan is declining pretty fast and Kobe right now has his best supporting cast post-Shaq.

IMO when it's all said and done Kobe will be above Duncan.

[knickscity]

Wait, you a criticizing a player that has won all four Finals appearances because he has not repeated? SMH. Dude, come on.

I was asking a question.

Most GOAt's that I can think of have won back to back.

If you are putting Ducan on this level, then make back to back finals appearance should be something a player of his character should do.

All the others did.

[Bodhi]

I think it's weird that people are acting like Duncan was an incredibly consistent dominant player this decade when he was never able to put together even two back to back finals appearances.

[knickscity]

I think it's weird that people are acting like Duncan was an incredibly consistent dominant player this decade when he was never able to put together even two back to back finals appearances.

Isn't it amazing nobody will touch that point with argument on behalf of Duncan.

[White Chocolate]

I think it's weird that people are acting like Duncan was an incredibly consistent dominant player this decade when he was never able to put together even two back to back finals appearances.


How does that determine whether or not he was consistently dominant? From 2000-2009, the Spurs reached the WCF 5 times. Only Detroit has more(6).

[D-Rose]

How does that determine whether or not he was consistently dominant? From 2000-2009, the Spurs reached the WCF 5 times. Only Detroit has more(6).
Lakers: 00,01,02,04,08,09

[White Chocolate]

Lakers: 00,01,02,04,08,09


My apologies. Still, 5 WCF appearances out of 10. Only 2 teams have more and it's only one more. That sounds pretty dominant to me.

[EMERE]

Duncan did have great supporting cast when he won those championships, call me back when he leads a smush parker and Kwame Brown team to the playoffs. I don't know what people see in duncan, sure his a winner but so is Kobe:confusedshrug: at this rate Kobe will pass duncan at the all-time list imo. its just a matter of time for people to realize it, if duncan fails this year to take his team all the way than his done, its his last chance.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kobe isn't close to any of these guys????

I'm not even a Kobe fan by any shot but he is considered better than the Big O, notches under Jordan, and no one compares him to Magic for two reasons.

One they are both Lakers.

Magic just did things on the court most players never could, Magic and Kobe are different animals.

And what I said is that Kobe may be the second best guard ever.

My reason for saying that is due to the fact he shadowed arguably one the best centers ever to play the game for most of his career and didn't look to shabby doing so.

Sorry, for Earvin Johsnon is inarguably superior to Bryant, not only winning 5 championships in the top decade of professional basketball, but also a superior team player and one of a handful of players that can actually make his teammates better, on the floor and in practice. Johnson could have had multiple 30 pppg seasons, but he was not a shooter. His approach relied on passing, and nobody did it better.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Duncan lost twice to the 3peat Lakers team. He dominated them as a matter of fact. The Lakers just had more weapons.
Yea, and twice to a Kobe lead Lakers team. Not to mention many more in the near future.
This is dead wrong.

[D-Rose]

This is dead wrong.
2008 for sure and 2001 i believe Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against them in the WCf in a sweep, I believe those are cloe to LBJ vs. ORL stats aren't they?

[Lebron23]

Poisedouche is back.

[RedZiggyZag]

Ok, I'll give you a pass on that. My bad.

But why hasn't Duncan been able to at least go back to back finals appearances???

He has always had the squad to do so.
Is it really that big of a deal? Duncan won 4 rings as the leader in all 4 of them......... and Yes he never won back to back, but Kobe has only 1 ring as the leader, the Robin in the other 3, whether you like it or not that does hurt him especially in a comparison against a player like Tim Duncan. Kobe Bryant has never repeated winning titles either, so that point is incredibly moot, If we were comparing Duncan to Shaq, then that point would be allowed and relevant.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Duncan did have great supporting cast when he won those championships, call me back when he leads a smush parker and Kwame Brown team to the playoffs. I don't know what people see in duncan, sure his a winner but so is Kobe:confusedshrug: at this rate Kobe will pass duncan at the all-time list imo. its just a matter of time for people to realize it, if duncan fails this year to take his team all the way than his done, its his last chance.
Star players taking subpar teams to a first round exit is to be expected, being that they are stars. One cannot neglect the impact of Phil Jackson as well.

Having great teammates and meshing with them in a 5 man game is a skill in itself, not a luxury.

[EMERE]

Poisedouche is back.If that was directed to me all i have to say is:roll: :roll: ohh i love the irony in here, a guy who has Lebron23 as their name shouldn't be speaking, i've seen your post and i bet you would be more than happy to sell yourself to Lebron

[White Chocolate]

2008 for sure and 2001 i believe Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against them in the WCf in a sweep, I believe those are cloe to LBJ vs. ORL stats aren't they?


Shaq- 27 PPG/13 RPG/2.5 APG/1.3 BPG/0.8 SPG


Kobe hardly carried the load.

[Abraham Lincoln]

2008 for sure and 2001 i believe Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against them in the WCf in a sweep, I believe those are cloe to LBJ vs. ORL stats aren't they?
That was an O'Neal led team. Stats do not reflect the main weapon of a team.

[knickscity]

2008 for sure and 2001 i believe Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against them in the WCf in a sweep, I believe those are cloe to LBJ vs. ORL stats aren't they?


That's pretty accurate.

And even if you compare now, Kobe has lead his team to two finals appearances back to back, which to me is the most important, as "the man", where has Duncan been at during this period ???

Don't give me the injury excuse.

[EMERE]

Star players taking subpar teams to a first round exit is to be expected, being that they are stars. One cannot neglect the impact of Phil Jackson as well.

Having great teammates and meshing with them in a 5 man game is a skill in itself, not a luxury.So can you tell me this, would Duncan lead a squad like that to the playoffs?

[RedZiggyZag]

That's pretty accurate.

And even if you compare now, Kobe has lead his team to two finals appearances back to back, which to me is the most important, as "the man", where has Duncan been at during this period ???

Don't give me the injury excuse.
Kobe Bryant is 1-2 in the Finals as the lead dog, That does not look very good compared to Duncan's 4-0 in the Finals as the lead dog, especially in the Close out game in 2003 against the Nets. Nearly Quad-Double in that game. And along with that, Duncan has 2 more Finals MVPs than him and 1 more Regular season MVP than him, Not to mention he got an MVP when the Lakers managed to win it all in 2002.

Duncan didn't repeat, but Kobe didn't either and there's no credit for making the Finals and losing.

[Abraham Lincoln]

So can you tell me this, would Duncan lead a squad like that to the playoffs?
Why not? Garnett has led similar teams to first round exits numerous times. The true excellence of Bryant has been in particular 2001, 2008, & 2009 to date, where he has meshed effectively with teammates striving for one goal. And they got it this year.

[Lebron23]

If that was directed to me all i have to say is:roll: :roll: ohh i love the irony in here, a guy who has Lebron23 as their name shouldn't be speaking, i've seen your post and i bet you would be more than happy to sell yourself to Lebron


Keep on S*cking on Kobe's D*ck. Cavs are going to F*ck the Lakers in the Finals.

[All Net]

Kobe Bryant is 1-2 in the Finals as the lead dog, That does not look very good compared to Duncan's 4-0 in the Finals as the lead dog, especially in the Close out game in 2003 against the Nets. Nearly Quad-Double in that game. And along with that, Duncan has 2 more Finals MVPs than him and 1 more Regular season MVP than him, Not to mention he got an MVP when the Lakers managed to win it all in 2002.

Duncan didn't repeat, but Kobe didn't either and there's no credit for making the Finals and losing.

You also have to look at who the Spurs played in those finals compared to what Kobe faced.

Just saying........

[Story Up]

Keep on S*cking on Kobe's D*ck. Cavs are going to F*ck the Lakers in the Finals.

Only on NBA Live 2010, get your copy now only 59.99 at Best Buy! :D

[KAJ=GOAT]

How does that determine whether or not he was consistently dominant? From 2000-2009, the Spurs reached the WCF 5 times. Only Detroit has more(6).


So you're just going to omit the Lakers being in the conference finals 6 times since 2000 as well?

2000 vs Portland
2001 vs Spurs sweep
2002 vs Kings
2004 vs Minnesota
2008 vs Spurs 4-1
2009 vs Denver

"Come talking that trash we'll pull your card, ain't nothing in life but to be legit, don't fool me boy, you ain't saying ****."

:hammertime:

[Lebron23]

Only on NBA Live 2010, get your copy now only 59.99 at Best Buy! :D


I am just messing with Poseidon. The guy is the resident troll on ISH.

[branslowski]

Keep on S*cking on Kobe's D*ck. Cavs are going to F*ck the Lakers in the Finals.

:oldlol: Didn't you say this last season?...


Anyway...Career Wise...Duncan>>>>Kobe....I have Duncan in my Top 5, while Kobe is 11th or 12th on my list...

But some of the reason's for Duncan>>Kobe that certain ppl are spitting out is idiotic.

lol@ the more consistant thing...Kobe's numbers have been in the 25 5 5 range consistantly for 9yrs, while consistantly almost shooting the same fg%....Some of you idiotic f*cks need to do a search on what consistantcy means...

[sirkeelma]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

We don't hate Kobe, we only hate the blind Kobe D*ckriders. :D

[knickscity]

:oldlol: Didn't you say this last season?...


Anyway...Career Wise...Duncan>>>>Kobe....I have Duncan in my Top 5, while Kobe is 11th or 12th on my list...

But some of the reason's for Duncan>>Kobe that certain ppl are spitting out is idiotic.

lol@ the more consistant thing...Kobe's numbers have been in the 25 5 5 range consistantly for 9yrs, while consistantly almost shooting the same fg%....Some of you idiotic f*cks need to do a search on what consistantcy means...

Why do you put Duncan over Kobe???

[Story Up]

I am just messing with Poseidon. The guy is the resident troll on ISH.

It's all good my man, I'm just playing with you. :D

[Lebron23]

:oldlol: Didn't you say this last season?...


Anyway...Career Wise...Duncan>>>>Kobe....I have Duncan in my Top 5, while Kobe is 11th or 12th on my list...

But some of the reason's for Duncan>>Kobe that certain ppl are spitting out is idiotic.


I said LeBron is going to win his first NBA Regular Season MVP.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe will surpass Duncan if he win another NBA title, and a Regular season MVP next year.

[KAJ=GOAT]

This is dead wrong.
2001
Game 1 Kobe 45 pts Shaq 28
Game 2 Kobe 28 pts Shaq 19
Game 3 Kobe 36 pts Shaq 35
Game 4 Kobe 24 pts Shaq 26 Fisher 28


lmao at anyone else in 2008 leading the charge.


Looks like you're dead wrong.

"this is how we do it".

:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

I said LeBron is going to win his first NBA Regular Season MVP.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Kobe will surpass Duncan if he win another NBA title, and a Regular season MVP next year.
So your saying that wont happen next year.

[RedZiggyZag]

You also have to look at who the Spurs played in those finals compared to what Kobe faced.

Just saying........
Any team the Lakers managed to take out, the Spurs would've been able to take out...

Let's review here.

2000 Pacers - Spurs would've been able to take them out
2001 76ers - EASY
2002 Nets - Spurs did in 2003, unless the Nets drastically improved
2004 Pistons - Spurs did in 2005, unless the Pistons drastically improved, Kobe shot 40% in the close out game, in game 5 as well.

2008 Celtics - This is the only one that probably would've given the Spurs their run for their money and that's it......I'm not even sure if they would've been able to take out the 05 or 07 Spurs though.

So really.....anything Kobe did or has done, Duncan could probably do and do an even better job at it...


Why do you put Duncan over Kobe???
No response to me? :confusedshrug:

Oh and let me add.... Kobe also manged to SEE his way into 3 straight years without winning a playoff series when he first became the team leader.

[Story Up]

How is Duncan on anyone's top five list? That's blasphemy.
He isn't a better winner then Bill Russell, he isn't a better player then Jordan/Bird or Magic, he didn't have a better career then Wilt or Kareem.

Yet somehow magically he's in someone's top five list?

[Lebron23]

So your saying that wont happen next year.

I don't want to jinx the Cavs. By the way the LA Lakers are the strongest team in the NBA.

[All Net]

Any team the Lakers managed to take out, the Spurs would've been able to take out...

Let's review here.

2000 Pacers - Spurs would've been able to take them out
2001 76ers - EASY
2002 Nets - Spurs did in 2003, unless the Nets drastically improved
2004 Pistons - Spurs did in 2005, unless the Pistons drastically improved, Kobe shot 40% in the close out game, in game 5 as well.

2008 Celtics - This is the only one that probably would've given the Spurs their run for their money and that's it......I'm not even sure if they would've been able to take out the 05 or 07 Spurs though.

So really.....anything Kobe did or has done, Duncan could probably do and do an even better job at it...


No response to me? :confusedshrug:

Oh and let me add.... Kobe also manged to SEE his way into 3 straight years without winning a playoff series when he first became the team leader.

C'mon lets face it

Nets and Cavs were pretty easy pickings. They were very weak by general standards.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Oh and let me add.... Kobe also manged to SEE his way into 3 straight years without winning a playoff series when he first became the team leader.


Smush Parker
Kwame Brown
Chris Mihm
Luke Walton
Brian Cook
Jumaine Jones


I love how you conveniently leave out that fact.


"You don't wanna **** with me"

:hammertime:

[knickscity]

Any team the Lakers managed to take out, the Spurs would've been able to take out...

Let's review here.

2000 Pacers - Spurs would've been able to take them out
2001 76ers - EASY
2002 Nets - Spurs did in 2003, unless the Nets drastically improved
2004 Pistons - Spurs did in 2005, unless the Pistons drastically improved, Kobe shot 40% in the close out game, in game 5 as well.

2008 Celtics - This is the only one that probably would've given the Spurs their run for their money and that's it......I'm not even sure if they would've been able to take out the 05 or 07 Spurs though.

So really.....anything Kobe did or has done, Duncan could probably do and do an even better job at it...



So now you base your argument on speculating now????

The Lakers made it those years with Kobe on the team.

Whether he was the man or not is not important.

Duncan did not make it those years and some of them lost to a team that Kobe was on.

Duncan might be the only person who is called a GOAT by some who has not even defended his crown.

Address that.

[knickscity]

C'mon lets face it

Nets and Cavs were pretty easy pickings. They were very weak by general standards.

The point really is that no maetter your oppenent, get there.

Kobe has gotten there more, and has won the same amount.

[RedZiggyZag]

C'mon lets face it

Nets and Cavs were pretty easy pickings. They were very weak by general standards.
07 Cavs = 01 76ers, 76ers may have been a bit better, but the Spurs swept the Cavs, while the Lakers took out the Sixers in 5.


So now you base your argument on speculating now????

The Lakers made it those years with Kobe on the team.

Whether he was the man or not is not important.

Duncan did not make it those years and some of them lost to a team that Kobe was on.

Duncan might be the only person who is called a GOAT by some who has not even defended his crown.

Address that.
Not at all, if you read the other post, I said that Repeating shouldn't be an issue, since Kobe never repeated as the lead dog champion either, Unless you really really want to overrate him being the 2nd option in the Three-Peat years. I really don't see much of an argument for Kobe being above Duncan at all, especially when Kobe got knocked out of the 1st round 3 times in a row, before leading his team to the Finals.

[branslowski]

Why do you put Duncan over Kobe???

Looking at the IMPORTANT Accolades, such as All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive, aswell as league MVP, Finals MVP, and total Championships, I see no reason for someone to have Kobe over Duncan on their All-Time list.

I mean, I could really show why, but I don't feel like doing it...

I have factual Important basis that backs up my point....As do I have it for ppl who stupidly think Oscar>>Kobe...I have a wall of factual Basis that proves Kobe to be a top 11 or 12 player in NBA history, and shouldn't be lower than that...

Lets look at it like this...Only a Moronic Kobe nut hugger would have Kobe in his top 5 at this moment....And only a idiotic Kobe Dickhater would have Kobe out of his atleast top 14, 15.....

But seriously, Duncan>>>Kobe...

Dont worry, im still a Kobe stan like some of the other guys in this thread...Except, im only a legit Kobe stan when I own a Kobe hater in an argument..:oldlol:

[phoenix18]

The point really is that no maetter your oppenent, get there.

Kobe has gotten there more, and has won the same amount.
WTF does getting to Finals more have to do with anything? GTFO. Stop grasping at straws to prove your point. How does getting to the Finals more and winning the same amount make Kobe look any better in this debate? 4-0 vs 4-2. Which one looks better?

[All Net]

07 Cavs = 01 76ers, 76ers may have been a bit better, but the Spurs swept the Cavs, while the Lakers took out the Sixers in 5.


may have been ABIT better? you aren't given that Sixers team enough credit. They were far better than the 07 Cavs.

[phoenix18]

Looking at the IMPORTANT Accolades, such as All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive, aswell as league MVP, Finals MVP, and total Championships, I see no reason for someone to have Kobe over Duncan on their All-Time list.

I mean, I could really show why, but I don't feel like doing it...

I have factual Important basis that backs up my point....As do I have it for ppl who stupidly think Oscar>>Kobe...I have a wall of factual Basis that proves Kobe to be a top 11 or 12 player in NBA history, and shouldn't be lower than that...

Lets look at it like this...Only a Moronic Kobe nut hugger would have Kobe in his top 5 at this moment....And only a idiotic Kobe Dickhater would have Kobe out of his atleast top 14, 15.....

But seriously, Duncan>>>Kobe...

Dont worry, im still a Kobe stan like some of the other guys in this thread...Except, im only a legit Kobe stan when I own a Kobe hater in an argument..:oldlol:
Oscar is better than Kobe.

[knickscity]

07 Cavs = 01 76ers, 76ers may have been a bit better, but the Spurs swept the Cavs, while the Lakers took out the Sixers in 5.


Not at all, if you read the other post, I said that Repeating shouldn't be an issue, since Kobe never repeated as the lead dog champion either, Unless you really really want to overrate him being the 2nd option in the Three-Peat years. I really don't see much of an argument for Kobe being above Duncan at all, especially when Kobe got knocked out of the 1st round 3 times in a row, before leading his team to the Finals.


I'm not even talking about just the winning part. I am also talking about representing.

Duncan may be the only GOAT who has not even defended his crown by getting back.

Kobe has been back to back in the finals, even as the man.

That is my point.

All GOAT's that I can recall have gone back to back.

Especially if they have had a team that has never missed the playoffs.

[angelv05]

I don't like comparing players that play totally different positions. They are both great players. If I had to pick one, I guess I would choose Kobe but I'm a Laker fan so. :confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

Oscar is better than Kobe.

:oldlol: ...Not

I really dont feel like doing this...I mean, do your research and find out what ranks players high on an All-Time list...Just look through every Factual Accolade, sit them side to side with the other, look at Clutch Killer instinct, winning, exc, exc....Oscar is not better than Kobe...

But, no suprise you think this...

[knickscity]

WTF does getting to Finals more have to do with anything? GTFO. Stop grasping at straws to prove your point. How does getting to the Finals more and winning the same amount make Kobe look any better in this debate? 4-0 vs 4-2. Which one looks better?


When you are comparing the same decade.....

4-2 means you were there six times, winning 4

4-0 means you were ther less but won them all.

The 4-2 finals team is more dominant especially since both team are in the same conference.

And one of those 4-0 wins aren't in the 2000 era, which is what started this argument in the first place.

So you tell me which looks better??

[White Chocolate]

Kobe in the Finals
24.6 PPG
5.2 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
0.9 BPG
41.4% from the field


Duncan in the Finals
21.7 PPG
13.8 RPG
3.2 APG
0.8 SPG
2.9 BPG
47.2% from the field


Not quite sure how Kobe fans are going to defend him.

[phoenix18]

When you are comparing the same decade.....

4-2 means you were there six times, winning 4

4-0 means you were ther less but won them all.

The 4-2 finals team is more dominant especially since both team are in the same conference.

And one of those 4-0 wins aren't in the 2000 era, which is what started this argument in the first place.

So you tell me which looks better??
You do know that this is an ALL-TIME list right? Not just a decade. Your logic doesnt make any sense. Doing the same amount is less time or appearances is always MORE impressive. Which is what Duncan has done. Stop making a mockery of yourself.

[phoenix18]

:oldlol: ...Not

I really dont feel like doing this...I mean, do your research and find out what ranks players high on an All-Time list...Just look through every Factual Accolade, sit them side to side with the other, look at Clutch Killer instinct, winning, exc, exc....Oscar is not better than Kobe...

But, no suprise you think this...
When did Clutch Killer Instinct become a factual stat? Does that mean that Reggie Miller is a top ten player? Or Ray Allen? I like how everyone keeps saying that Kobe is this super clutch player that makes it happen the majority of times when he is like 14 for 56 in GW attempts. But anyways, I was just stating my opinion. Carry on with your discussion.

[knickscity]

Kobe in the Finals
24.6 PPG
5.2 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
0.9 BPG
41.4% from the field


Duncan in the Finals
21.7 PPG
13.8 RPG
3.2 APG
0.8 SPG
2.9 BPG
47.2% from the field


Not quite sure how Kobe fans are going to defend him.
You just prove it yourself with your own post.

He beats Duncan in 3 of the 5 categories that you yourself listed!!!!!:roll:

Never mind clutch%, freethrow shooting and since you mention BPG as if a guard can be compared to a big man in that.

Sad comparisons.

[phoenix18]

You just prove it yourself with your own post.

He beats Duncan in 3 of the 5 categories that you yourself listed!!!!!:roll:

Never mind clutch%, freethrow shooting and since you mention BPG as if a guard can be compared to a big man in that.

Sad comparisons.
What is clutch percentage?

[branslowski]

When did Clutch Killer Instinct become a factual stat? Does that mean that Reggie Miller is a top ten player? Or Ray Allen? I like how everyone keeps saying that Kobe is this super clutch player that makes it happen the majority of times when he is like 14 for 56 in GW attempts. But anyways, I was just stating my opinion. Carry on with your discussion.

Its a Fact when I can show the amount of Game-Winners he made in his career which is only 2nd to well....Ofcource Jordan.:confusedshrug:

If you have an opinion of Oscar>>Kobe...Cool, to each its own, but it's a stupid opinion if your reason's cant out fact reasons I have...

Do you honestly to yourself think that Oscar is the better player? Agenda's, natural hugging respect for something old aside, do you?

[White Chocolate]

You just prove it yourself with your own post.

He beats Duncan in 3 of the 5 categories that you yourself listed!!!!!:roll:

Never mind clutch%, freethrow shooting and since you mention BPG as if a guard can be compared to a big man in that.

Sad comparisons.


Um...Kobe averages 3 more points on considerably lower shooting percentages. He's averaging more points because he takes far more shots. Duncan is way more efficient, a better defender, and can be counted on.

[Story Up]

Um...Kobe averages 3 more points on considerably lower shooting percentages. He's averaging more points because he takes far more shots. Duncan is way more efficient, a better defender, and can be counted on.

47% for a C/PF isn't "very" efficient at all. It really is no different then Kobe shooting 41% for a SG. Especially when you, yourself said Kobe takes more shots. (your efficiency is harder to preserve if you take more shots)

[D-Rose]

Um...Kobe averages 3 more points on considerably lower shooting percentages. He's averaging more points because he takes far more shots. Duncan is way more efficient, a better defender, and can be counted on.
6 more percent when comparing a PF to a SG is not "way more efficient" :oldlol:

[Flamboyant]

God, there is some massive stupidity going on in this thread.
I love Timmy, I really do, but some stuff that I read in this thread was plain stupid.


WTF does getting to Finals more have to do with anything? GTFO. Stop grasping at straws to prove your point. How does getting to the Finals more and winning the same amount make Kobe look any better in this debate? 4-0 vs 4-2. Which one looks better?

So let me get this. The reason why Kobe shouldn't be considered better than Duncan is the fact that he has lost twice in the finals, even though in both years (2004, 2008) he reached the finals while defeating Duncan. What's next? Hakeem is better than Kareem? Wade is better than Magic? Pierce better than Bird?

Only in the world of a Kobe hater making the finals is considered a bad thing.

Here's to give you an analogy for the bolded sentence my friend:
Who has more money, a guy that has only 4 100$ bills, or a guy who has 4 100$s, and 2 50$s?
There you go.




Oh, and by the way Duncan is just as dominant offensively as Kobe. My eyes, my eyes. They are burning of blasphemy. :(

[White Chocolate]

47% for a C/PF isn't "very" efficient at all. It really is no different then Kobe shooting 41% for a SG. Especially when you, yourself said Kobe takes more shots. (your efficiency is harder to preserve if you take more shots)


Efficiency is efficiency. It's not position-specified. Kobe was jacking up shots at an Allen Iverson rate. Duncan's percentages were off, but still respectable. There's a reason he's 1/4 in Finals MVPs and Duncan is 3/4.

[All Net]

Efficiency is efficiency. It's not position-specified. Kobe was jacking up shots at an Allen Iverson rate. Duncan's percentages were off, but still respectable. There's a reason he's 1/4 in Finals MVPs and Duncan is 3/4.

Yeah he faced tougher teams.

[KenneBell]

There's a reason he's 1/4 in Finals MVPs and Duncan is 3/4.
Because Kobe played with Shaq?

[phoenix18]

God, there is some massive stupidity going on in this thread.
I love Timmy, I really do, but some stuff that I read in this thread was plain stupid.



So let me get this. The reason why Kobe shouldn't be considered better than Duncan is the fact that he has lost twice in the finals, even though in both years (2004, 2008) he reached the finals while defeating Duncan. What's next? Hakeem is better than Kareem? Wade is better than Magic? Pierce better than Bird?

Only in the world of a Kobe hater making the finals is considered a bad thing.

Here's to give you an analogy for the bolded sentence my friend:
Who has more money, a guy that has only 4 100$ bills, or a guy who has 4 100$s, and 2 50$s?
There you go.




Oh, and by the way Duncan is just as dominant offensively as Kobe. My eyes, my eyes. They are burning of blasphemy. :(
If you are point out stupidity in this thread, look no further than your own post. How does that analogy to money make any sense? Huh? Isnt being undefeated and having the same amount of wins more impressive?

[imdaman99]

C'mon lets face it

Nets and Cavs were pretty easy pickings. They were very weak by general standards.
And the Knicks. My Knicks. #8 seed. Yeah they were better than an 8th seed, but they weren't nearly as good.

[imdaman99]

Kobe in the Finals
24.6 PPG
5.2 RPG
5.3 APG
1.7 SPG
0.9 BPG
41.4% from the field


Duncan in the Finals
21.7 PPG
13.8 RPG
3.2 APG
0.8 SPG
2.9 BPG
47.2% from the field


Not quite sure how Kobe fans are going to defend him.
:oldlol:

now tell me Yankee fan, how in the world do your stats prove anything in favor of your argument? lol are you also a Bulls and Cowboys fan like Lebron?

[knickscity]

You do know that this is an ALL-TIME list right? Not just a decade. Your logic doesnt make any sense. Doing the same amount is less time or appearances is always MORE impressive. Which is what Duncan has done. Stop making a mockery of yourself.

But that is the point, Duncan has done less with more. His squads have never just been average.

Duncan has won 50+ games in every season he has played and won 37 in the half lockout season.

And only has 4 finals appearance in the 12 years he has been in the League. That's about 33% leading a team to the finals.

Kobe has been on a team that has been bad at times and still for his career has won as many rings as Duncan, and in 13 years has made the finals 6 times, winning the same amount.


So once again, yes I do give a player credit for making the finals.

Kobe 6 out 13 possible tries. Won 4
Duuncan 4 out of 12 possible tries. Won 4.

Like I have said way in the beginning you can't compare two guys who don't play against each other.

You can only compare their teams. Kobe teams have been more successful in getting to the finals to have the chance to win it all than the Spurs have.

LA if I'm not mistaken beat the Spurs at least twice to get there.

You make it sound like Duncan is sh!tting all over Kobe career wise when he isn't.

[phoenix18]

Its a Fact when I can show the amount of Game-Winners he made in his career which is only 2nd to well....Ofcource Jordan.:confusedshrug:

If you have an opinion of Oscar>>Kobe...Cool, to each its own, but it's a stupid opinion if your reason's cant out fact reasons I have...

Do you honestly to yourself think that Oscar is the better player? Agenda's, natural hugging respect for something old aside, do you?
How come whenever we bring up Kobe shoots a terrible GW percentage, you bring up that he has the second most? But whenever I say that AI has more points than Kobe, you say that he has a terrible FG%? Hypocritical? Double standard? Or just using what ever fact you can to make your point? I do have reasons why I think that Oscar is better than Kobe but this is a Duncan and Kobe thread. Also, how come whenever I think someone is better than Kobe, I have to be nut hugging? Now lets get back on point, you tell me why should I think that Kobe is better than Duncan. Go ahead. You said that you had all these reasons, post some.

[RedZiggyZag]

Oscar is better than Kobe.
Shows you how overrated Oscar is and how much of a Kobe hater you are, almost as bad as BallersTalk.


may have been ABIT better? you aren't given that Sixers team enough credit. They were far better than the 07 Cavs.
They were pretty even, both defensive minded team led by one superstar that got all the credit ( Allen Iverson, LeBron James). I'd give the edge to the 76ers because of Deke though.


I'm not even talking about just the winning part. I am also talking about representing.

Duncan may be the only GOAT who has not even defended his crown by getting back.

Kobe has been back to back in the finals, even as the man.

That is my point.

All GOAT's that I can recall have gone back to back.

Especially if they have had a team that has never missed the playoffs.
But why would you have Kobe above Duncan, just because of that? If that was the case, than Jerry West would be above Duncan as well.

RESPOND! :pimp:

[D-Rose]

Efficiency is efficiency. It's not position-specified. Kobe was jacking up shots at an Allen Iverson rate. Duncan's percentages were off, but still respectable. There's a reason he's 1/4 in Finals MVPs and Duncan is 3/4.
No you can't compare apples to oranges.

47% for a big man is sub-par as is 41% for a wing.

It's pretty damn obvious that usually big men have a higher efficiency than guys that ashoot further away from the basket.

By your logic the GOAT list should be all big men with high FG%.

Yes that reason is he didn't play with Prime Shaq and beat Ewing-less Knicks.

[IInvented]

Give Kobe Manu, Parker and Bowen and DROB and he would win 6+ ships. Dudes acting like Duncan did it all by himself. He had the most help out of any star. Kobe > Duncan. If you actually think Duncan should be ahead of Kobe, then LOL. Holla at me when Duncan ever brings his team to the 'offs with Smush as his PG and Puke Walton as his SF. Mmmkay?

The board hates Kobe so it's expected that they pick LOL Duncan over him. Even though Kobe has a winning record over that overrated guy in the playoffs. Explain that to me...

your back

Shaq>>>>>>>>>Manu, Parker, Bowen and Rob put together

stop making excuses *****

[IInvented]

Tim Duncan is in my top 5, so no

Kobe barely cracks my top 10

[D-Rose]

Tim Duncan is in my top 5, so no

Kobe barely cracks my top 10
Duncan is not even Top 5 at his position.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem.

[Artillery]

Kobe piggybacked Shaq to 3 championships while Duncan's been the best player on the Spurs since the day he was drafted. Kobe's always needed a fellow all-star in order to win a championship while Duncan's won it all with a group of role players in 2003. Duncan is still ahead of Kobe.

[IInvented]

Duncan is not even Top 5 at his position.

Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Russell, Hakeem.

Duncan is a PF

that's why he's regarded as the greatest PF to ever play :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[phoenix18]

Shows you how overrated Oscar is and how much of a Kobe hater you are, almost as bad as BallersTalk.
How many times are you going to quote me before it sinks in? You are absolutely right. Since that I said that Oscar is better than Kobe, I am such a hater. I throw darts at the Kobe poster in my room. I routinely find Kobe fans wearing his jersey, beat them up, take the jersey home and burn it on my driveway. I hate Kobe so much, I f*cked Vanessa when their marriage was on the rocks screaming" he cant hit it like me!!". I hate Kobe so much I dont even eat beans of all sorts just because that's his middle name.

[Heilige]

Efficiency is efficiency. It's not position-specified. Kobe was jacking up shots at an Allen Iverson rate. Duncan's percentages were off, but still respectable. There's a reason he's 1/4 in Finals MVPs and Duncan is 3/4.


So, if Duncan played with prime Shaq he would have Finals MVPs?

[phoenix18]

Kobe piggybacked Shaq to 3 championships while Duncan's been the best player on the Spurs since the day he was drafted. Kobe's always needed a fellow all-star in order to win a championship while Duncan's won it all with a group of role players in 2003. Duncan is still ahead of Kobe.
ssshhhh......... Dont let Branslowsy hear you.

[Abraham Lincoln]

This is dead wrong.2001
Game 1 Kobe 45 pts Shaq 28
Game 2 Kobe 28 pts Shaq 19
Game 3 Kobe 36 pts Shaq 35
Game 4 Kobe 24 pts Shaq 26 Fisher 28


lmao at anyone else in 2008 leading the charge.


Looks like you're dead wrong.

"this is how we do it".

:hammertime:

Read this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3446049&postcount=131) before logging out and returning to your 2nd gimmick account (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=53244).

[phoenix18]

Read this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3446049&postcount=131) before logging out and returning to your 2nd gimmick account (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/member.php?u=53244).
:roll: :roll: That was funny as hell.

[branslowski]

How come whenever we bring up Kobe shoots a terrible GW percentage, you bring up that he has the second most? But whenever I say that AI has more points than Kobe, you say that he has a terrible FG%? Hypocritical? Double standard? Or just using what ever fact you can to make your point? I do have reasons why I think that Oscar is better than Kobe but this is a Duncan and Kobe thread. Also, how come whenever I think someone is better than Kobe, I have to be nut hugging? Now lets get back on point, you tell me why should I think that Kobe is better than Duncan. Go ahead. You said that you had all these reasons, post some.

I Call Bullsh!t on this whole post...

1. Show me an argument where you said Iverson had more points than Kobe and I bought up his fg%?...Iv'e only bought up his FG% in a thread that said worst chucker...While i've also in that same thread put Kobe on the list as a ballhog, but only had AI higher because of worst FG%, but explained it really isn't important because both guy's had to carry their teams..:oldlol: FAIL BIG TIME LIAR.

Now to take care of the bolded part.

My 2nd post in this thread...


Originally Posted by branslowski
Looking at the IMPORTANT Accolades, such as All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive, aswell as league MVP, Finals MVP, and total Championships, I see no reason for someone to have Kobe over Duncan on their All-Time list.

I mean, I could really show why, but I don't feel like doing it...

I have factual Important basis that backs up my point....As do I have it for ppl who stupidly think Oscar>>Kobe...I have a wall of factual Basis that proves Kobe to be a top 11 or 12 player in NBA history, and shouldn't be lower than that...

Lets look at it like this...Only a Moronic Kobe nut hugger would have Kobe in his top 5 at this moment....And only a idiotic Kobe Dickhater would have Kobe out of his atleast top 14, 15.....

But seriously, Duncan>>>Kobe...

Dont worry, im still a Kobe stan like some of the other guys in this thread...Except, im only a legit Kobe stan when I own a Kobe hater in an argument..:oldlol:

humm....So why would I try to tell you that Kobe is better than Duncan, when iv'e already made the case on how much greater Duncan is than Kobe?...

Tis be too easy...:oldlol:

[imdaman99]

So, if Duncan played with prime Shaq he would have Finals MVPs?
Come on man we know what would happen if Shaq and Duncan were on the same team. Duncan would have 14 championships and only once would he relinquish that coveted Finals MVP and end up with 13 Finals MVPs.

[Killer_Instinct]

God, there is some massive stupidity going on in this thread.
I love Timmy, I really do, but some stuff that I read in this thread was plain stupid.



So let me get this. The reason why Kobe shouldn't be considered better than Duncan is the fact that he has lost twice in the finals, even though in both years (2004, 2008) he reached the finals while defeating Duncan. What's next? Hakeem is better than Kareem? Wade is better than Magic? Pierce better than Bird?

Only in the world of a Kobe hater making the finals is considered a bad thing.

Here's to give you an analogy for the bolded sentence my friend:
Who has more money, a guy that has only 4 100$ bills, or a guy who has 4 100$s, and 2 50$s?
There you go.




Oh, and by the way Duncan is just as dominant offensively as Kobe. My eyes, my eyes. They are burning of blasphemy. :(

Co-sign. The childish agendas/hate on ISH is sickening. It's sad to think how bad this place will be a couple years from now. It was bad in '07. It's astounding how worse it keeps getting.

[Abraham Lincoln]

How many times are you going to quote me before it sinks in? You are absolutely right. Since that I said that Oscar is better than Kobe, I am such a hater. I throw darts at the Kobe poster in my room. I routinely find Kobe fans wearing his jersey, beat them up, take the jersey home and burn it on my driveway. I hate Kobe so much, I f*cked Vanessa when their marriage was on the rocks screaming" he cant hit it like me!!". I hate Kobe so much I dont even eat beans of all sorts just because that's his middle name.
Oscar Robertson is infact horribly underrated here, and would be in the top 5 underrated players if not for the massive Iverson hate this past season.

Robertson, again, was a Pierce/Bryant hybrid that had the all around ability and impact of L. James. At his peak he was the 7th best player of all time.

[Heilige]

Co-sign. The childish agendas/hate on ISH is sickening. It's sad to think how bad this place will be a couple years from now. It was bad in '07. It's astounding how worse it keeps getting.


In your opinion, is Kobe higher than Duncan on the all-time list?

[branslowski]

ssshhhh......... Dont let Branslowsy hear you.

Again..I feel sorry for the fact that you cant read or comprehend...:confusedshrug:


Originally Posted by branslowski
Looking at the IMPORTANT Accolades, such as All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive, aswell as league MVP, Finals MVP, and total Championships, I see no reason for someone to have Kobe over Duncan on their All-Time list.

I mean, I could really show why, but I don't feel like doing it...

I have factual Important basis that backs up my point....As do I have it for ppl who stupidly think Oscar>>Kobe...I have a wall of factual Basis that proves Kobe to be a top 11 or 12 player in NBA history, and shouldn't be lower than that...

Lets look at it like this...Only a Moronic Kobe nut hugger would have Kobe in his top 5 at this moment....And only a idiotic Kobe Dickhater would have Kobe out of his atleast top 14, 15.....

But seriously, Duncan>>>Kobe...

Dont worry, im still a Kobe stan like some of the other guys in this thread...Except, im only a legit Kobe stan when I own a Kobe hater in an argument..

God I hope your not this dumb in real life...

[phoenix18]

humm....So why would I try to tell you that Kobe is better than Duncan, when iv'e already made the case on how much greater Duncan is than Kobe?...

Tis be too easy...:oldlol:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Why the hell are you still arguing then? Why would you admit that he is better to begin with and then start defending Kobe in the debate? Huh?

[knickscity]

Shows you how overrated Oscar is and how much of a Kobe hater you are, almost as bad as BallersTalk.


They were pretty even, both defensive minded team led by one superstar that got all the credit ( Allen Iverson, LeBron James). I'd give the edge to the 76ers because of Deke though.


But why would you have Kobe above Duncan, just because of that? If that was the case, than Jerry West would be above Duncan as well.

RESPOND! :pimp:
I'm not discrediting what Duncan has done.

But you are discrediting Kobe.

Making the finals 6 times is more impressive than 4. That is a fact I don't care how you want to spin it.

Winning 50+ games in every season minus the (lockout)Duncan has you played(12) and only making the finals 4 times is not as great as you make it, versus 6 finals out of 13 seasons.

[White Chocolate]

So, if Duncan played with prime Shaq he would have Finals MVPs?


Probably at least 1, yes. The two of them as Co-MVPs is not out of the question either.

[NBASTATMAN]

Duncan is ahead.

Why:

Duncan is the better winner. Duncan is more consistent. Duncan is an elite force on both ends. Duncan has always lead his team to 50 win seasons and the playoffs. Duncan hasn't lost in the finals. Duncan is arguably the best ever at his position.



I CONCUR..

[phoenix18]

Again..I feel sorry for the fact that you cant read or comprehend...:confusedshrug:



God I hope your not this dumb in real life...
Lol @ you not noticing it was joke. God I hope YOU arent as stupid in real life. I have said that about you in about three other threads and you noticed it then and I said I was just joking so why would it change now?

[imdaman99]

Come on man this isn't like comparing the Bills to the Cowboys. Kobe won 4 of those championships. He didn't come out ringless. Although from the sounds of it, everyone seems to think the only ring that counts is the one that says MVP on it. Mama there go these men.

[phoenix18]

Oscar Robertson is infact horribly underrated here, and would be in the top 5 underrated players if not for the massive Iverson hate this past season.

Robertson, again, was a Pierce/Bryant hybrid that had the all around ability and impact of L. James. At his peak he was the 7th best player of all time.
I agree. :applause: sssssshhhh dont let Branslowsy hear you.:roll:

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: Why the hell are you still arguing then? Why would you admit that he is better to begin with and then start defending Kobe in the debate? Huh?

:oldlol: Then, instead of being a man and apologizing for the fact that you were f*cking wrong as f*ck...You try to play it off with this sh!t?...:wtf:

I only replied after you quoted my post and said Oscar is better than Kobe...

My god are you retarded...:eek:

[Artillery]

I'm not discrediting what Duncan has done.

But you are discrediting Kobe.

Making the finals 6 times is more impressive than 4. That is a fact I don't care how you want to spin it.

Winning 50+ games in every season minus the (lockout)Duncan has you played(12) and only making the finals 4 times is not as great as you make it, versus 6 finals out of 13 seasons.

Duncan was the best player on the Spurs in all 12 of those seasons. Can't say the same for Kobe who had to piggyback Shaq for 4 of those of Finals appearances.

[phoenix18]

Come on man this isn't like comparing the Bills to the Cowboys. Kobe won 4 of those championships. He didn't come out ringless. Although from the sounds of it, everyone seems to think the only ring that counts is the one that says MVP on it. Mama there go these men.
We are comparing two players so it does matter. When did you get in here?

[Flamboyant]

If you are point out stupidity in this thread, look no further than your own post. How does that analogy to money make any sense? Huh? Isnt being undefeated and having the same amount of wins more impressive?

You aren't categorized as undefeated, when you lose before reaching the finals. The last thing I'd want to do here is to offend someone personally, but seriously stop and think. How are 04, and 08 proof that Duncan is better than Kobe, when he lost to Kobe in both of those years. Just stop and think.

[imdaman99]

Oscar Robertson? How many of you guys even saw Oscar play that you are blatantly saying that Kobe can't touch him? I never saw the Big O play but I'm willing to bet my pants that if the Big O played today, Kobe could lock him up and prevent him from averaging a triple double on him :lol

It's only my pants :confusedshrug:

[branslowski]

Lol @ you not noticing it was joke. God I hope YOU arent as stupid in real life. I have said that about you in about three other threads and you noticed it then and I said I was just joking so why would it change now?

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I swear to god Iam laughing hard as f*ck with tears coming out of my eye's with the way you are backtracking...It was a joke huh? You weren't just totally wrong and owned on purpose huh?...:rolleyes:

[D-Rose]

Duncan is a PF

that's why he's regarded as the greatest PF to ever play :hammerhead: :hammerhead:
You can regard him as whatever you want but he's a Center because he has the body of a Center and has actually played a lot of his career at Center, even with robinson there were basially 2 Centers.


Kobe piggybacked Shaq to 3 championships while Duncan's been the best player on the Spurs since the day he was drafted. Kobe's always needed a fellow all-star in order to win a championship while Duncan's won it all with a group of role players in 2003. Duncan is still ahead of Kobe.

piggybacked? :roll:

Let's see...

2000 playoffs: 21/5/4 on 44%
2001 playoffs: 29/7/6 on 47%
2002 playoffs: 27/6/5 on 43%
2009 playoffs: 30/6/5 on 46%

[imdaman99]

You aren't categorized as undefeated, when you lose before reaching the finals. The last thing I'd want to do here is to offend someone personally, but seriously stop and think. How are 04, and 08 proof that Duncan is better than Kobe, when he lost to Kobe in both of those years. Just stop and think.
Come on man seriously. Don't you know that 3rd place is better than 2nd place any day of the week? 2nd place is just the biggest loser LOLZ

SERIOUSLY GUYS IS HE THAT DUMB? LOLZ LIKE FA SHO.

I'm just messin yo lol

[knickscity]

Duncan was the best player on the Spurs in all 12 of those seasons. Can't say the same for Kobe who had to piggyback Shaq for 4 of those of Finals appearances.

And you are faulting him for that??? And two of those he didn't piggy back him.

[phoenix18]

:oldlol: Then, instead of being a man and apologizing for the fact that you were f*cking wrong as f*ck...You try to play it off with this sh!t?...:wtf:

I only replied after you quoted my post and said Oscar is better than Kobe...

My god are you retarded...:eek:
I am so retarded. Yes, sir I am. Says the man that just stopped answering questions with Michael Jackson gifs when he didnt have an answer. But I am the retard. Oh, and dont forget this: THE WAY OVERUSED U Mad pic. If it really means something, I am truly sorry that your mom and dad created this POS who I am responding to. I am also sorry for this aforementioned POS still not answering why he thought Kobe was better than Oscar, I am sorry for the rain today in Georgia, I am sorry for whatever went wrong in your childhood that made you cling onto Kobe's nuts. Anything else I should apologize for? Or should I wait up for you? BTW, your first post in this thread wasnt after you quoted me, so are you going to "be a man" and apologize for that? Or just quote this and say how much of a retard I am.

[phoenix18]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I swear to god Iam laughing hard as f*ck with tears coming out of my eye's with the way you are backtracking...It was a joke huh? You weren't just totally wrong and owned on purpose huh?...:rolleyes:
I have said that before, just because your fixated on MJ's glove doesnt mean that it didnt happen. Look away.

[branslowski]

I am so retarded. Yes, sir I am. Says the man that just stopped answering questions with Michael Jackson gifs when he didnt have an answer. But I am the retard. Oh, and dont forget this: THE WAY OVERUSED U Mad pic. If it really means something, I am truly sorry that your mom and dad created this POS who I am responding to. I am also sorry for this aforementioned POS still not answering why he thought Kobe was better than Oscar, I am sorry for the rain today in Georgia, I am sorry for whatever went wrong in your childhood that made you cling onto Kobe's nuts. Anything else I should apologize for? Or should I wait up for you? BTW, your first post in this thread wasnt after you quoted me, so are you going to "be a man" and apologize for that? Or just quote this and say how much of a retard I am.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Im lovin this...How you inch by inch try to stray away from the fact that you were f*cking owned, b!tchslapped...Then even worst is that you tried to backtrack and say..."well, well, umm, I was just joking, yeah, joking"....:roll: ..Now you go into this little b!tch and moan rant...God your pathetic...You cant even comprehend the reason's I used those MJ GIF's...

Anyone who reads through these comments knows you were just f*cking owned...Man your a charactor...

[knickscity]

I can see the thread has officially died.

[phoenix18]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Im lovin this...How you inch by inch try to stray away from the fact that you were f*cking owned, b!tchslapped...Then even worst is that you tried to backtrack and say..."well, well, umm, I was just joking, yeah, joking"....:roll: ..Now you go into this little b!tch and moan rant...God your pathetic...You cant even comprehend the reason's I used those MJ GIF's...

Anyone who reads through these comments knows you were just f*cking owned...Man your a charactor...
I think you have just set the record for using the most words, but saying absolutely nothing. Good job compadre!!:cheers: I cant believe it took this long just for you to repeat yourself. Anyways, back on topic because you obviously cannot admit that you were wrong and are never going to give me those reason as to why you THINK that Kobe is better than Oscar.

[branslowski]

OK, as a man, my fault that I wrongly assumed that you would think Kobe>>>Duncan, this is only because the other Kobe fans were doing it, so I thought you would be just like them, im not going to backtrack the fact that I was wrong as F*ck by saying something lame like "Oh, I was joking"...I'll own up to it, my fault. All good homie.


Had to do this for you kid....Just man the F*ck up and accept this...

[branslowski]

I think you have just set the record for using the most words, but saying absolutely nothing. Good job compadre!!:cheers: I cant believe it took this long just for you to repeat yourself. Anyways, back on topic because you obviously cannot admit that you were wrong and are never going to give me those reason as to why you THINK that Kobe is better than Oscar.

I thought you wanted the reason's why I think Kobe is better than Duncan?..:roll: Oh thats right, I owned you and made you look silly on that front...

OK, i'll do the Oscar thing for you...Your not gonna log off on me are you?...:oldlol:

[phoenix18]

Had to do this for you kid....Just man the F*ck up and accept this...
Kid? When you contribute something other than worn out images and gifs, let me know. PM me.

[phoenix18]

I thought you wanted the reason's why I think Kobe is better than Duncan?.. Oh thats right, I owned you and made you look silly on that front...

OK, i'll do the Oscar thing for you...Your not gonna log off on me are you?...

Just look at the post you just quoted.


I am so retarded. Yes, sir I am. Says the man that just stopped answering questions with Michael Jackson gifs when he didnt have an answer. But I am the retard. Oh, and dont forget this: THE WAY OVERUSED U Mad pic. If it really means something, I am truly sorry that your mom and dad created this POS who I am responding to. I am also sorry for this aforementioned POS still not answering why he thought Kobe was better than Oscar, I am sorry for the rain today in Georgia, I am sorry for whatever went wrong in your childhood that made you cling onto Kobe's nuts. Anything else I should apologize for? Or should I wait up for you? BTW, your first post in this thread wasnt after you quoted me, so are you going to "be a man" and apologize for that? Or just quote this and say how much of a retard I am.
Wasnt that amazing that a retard could point that out? Although I might fall asleep by the time you are done copying and pasting.

[branslowski]

Kobe 4 Titles.....Oscar only 1 NBA Title...Both are all time greats, so dont pull no BS crap like..."Well Horry has 6 rings so is he better"...

Anyway...Kobe Better Winner

Kobe 4 Time Champ>>>>Oscar 1 Time Champ
Kobe 1 Finals MVP>>>>Oscar's 0

Oscar one more All-Star apperence (played 1 more season.) Both 3 All-Star MVP's..

Both 1 Time MVP

Both 11 All-NBA

Kobe By Far Better Defender..9 All-Defensive Teams..

Kobe Better Scorer..
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Kobe Better in Clutch situations...Killer intinct..Blood in the Water..Assasain

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 11/23/07 - Lakers 89 - Pacers 88
(22) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121
(23) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121- Pacers 119

Again Adding To The Kobe Better Winner Spot...Lets look at these All-Time Playoff Totals in Points...


TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:

1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4259
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724

:oldlol: I mean...Better Scorer, Defender, Slightly better accolads, and Better Winner, more Clutch....I mean, come on...

Oscar is the Better Rebounder and assist man....But in a All-Time Ranking stage, your gonna take Oscar's limited water, over Kobe's?...

Not to even mention the fact that during Oscar's time, he had by far more possesions pg than Player's have now...So we have to add that and put that into perspective...Imagine if guy's like LeBron and Prime Iverson got 30 more possesions per game?....:eek:


So again, If You think Oscar>>>Kobe....Cool....To each it's own....But see, I have this to back up my point of having Kobe>>>Oscar...

[phoenix18]

Kobe 4 Titles.....Oscar only 1 NBA Title...Both are all time greats, so dont pull no BS crap like..."Well Horry has 6 rings so is he better"...

Anyway...Kobe Better Winner

Kobe 4 Time Champ>>>>Oscar 1 Time Champ
Kobe 1 Finals MVP>>>>Oscar's 0

Oscar one more All-Star apperence (played 1 more season.) Both 3 All-Star MVP's..

Both 1 Time MVP

Both 11 All-NBA

Kobe By Far Better Defender..9 All-Defensive Teams..

Kobe Better Scorer..
81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season

THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Kobe Better in Clutch situations...Killer intinct..Blood in the Water..Assasain

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 11/23/07 - Lakers 89 - Pacers 88
(22) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121
(23) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121- Pacers 119

Again Adding To The Kobe Better Winner Spot...Lets look at these All-Time Playoff Totals in Points...


TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:

1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4259
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724

:oldlol: I mean...Better Scorer, Defender, Slightly better accolads, and Better Winner, more Clutch....I mean, come on...

Oscar is the Better Rebounder and assist man....But in a All-Time Ranking stage, your gonna take Oscar's limited water, over Kobe's?...

Not to even mention the fact that during Oscar's time, he had by far more possesions pg than Player's have now...So we have to add that and put that into perspective...Imagine if guy's like LeBron and Prime Iverson got 30 more possesions per game?....:eek:


So again, If You think Oscar>>>Kobe....Cool....To each it's own....But see, I have this to back up my point of having Kobe>>>Oscar...
All you did was prove that he was a better scorer. Most of his all defense first teams are undeserved. But I have to give you props, even though it took 18 minutes. Still, Oscar>Kobe in my mind. :cheers:

[branslowski]

All you did was prove that he was a better scorer. Most of his all defense first teams are undeserved. But I have to give you props, even though it took 18 minutes. Still, Oscar>Kobe in my mind. :cheers:

Can I see your debunking reason why Oscar>>Kobe still?....I proved Kobe's Better Defense, Winner, More Clutch, AND SCORER in Reg Season, and All-Time Total Playoff points...Just wanted to add that because it seems like you missed it...

Also, it took 18minutes because Im in another window chatting on Yahoo...

Edit:...You really dont have to show me the Big reason why you have Oscar over Kobe after I just gave you those FACTUAL reasons...I already know why...

And you can give an opinion that his defensive Teams are undeserved..But than it's this whole opinion vs FACT thing that comes out showing hos the FACT holds more water than a person pised with an opinion...Sorry.

[Fatal9]

Duncan has the most worthless championship out of any year (1999). And we all know about the NBA intervention in 2007 that cleared the way for Spurs to win. Lets get some asterisks attached to those rings please. He's certainly not a better "winner" (which seems like an empty/meaningless term anyways) than Kobe. Might appear that way because he hasn't had to go through the same fluctuations as Kobe has with the teams around them.

[phoenix18]

Can I see your debunking reason why Oscar>>Kobe still?....I proved Kobe's Better Defense, Winner, More Clutch, AND SCORER in Reg Season, and All-Time Total Playoff points...Just wanted to add that because it seems like you missed it...

Also, it took 18minutes because Im in another window chatting on Yahoo...

Edit:...You really dont have to show me the Big reason why you have Oscar over Kobe after I just gave you those FACTUAL reasons...I already know why...

And you can give an opinion that his defensive Teams are undeserved..But than it's this whole opinion vs FACT thing that comes out showing hos the FACT holds more water than a person pised with an opinion...Sorry.
Spelling. This is not the chat room if you are confused. Also, if you were going to say he is a better scorer, dont use total points, use the average. That gives a better indication of his performance. Way better. I have Oscar over Kobe because he was a better overall player. Its that simple. Better passer, rebounder, more efficient scorer, and a great defender. No holes in his game.

[Wolf Man]

Best Player of the Decade? Not Tim Duncan.


http://annie-thejourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/kobe_duncan.jpg

Double Standard 1: Everyone harps on Kobe for playing with Shaq, yet no one harps on Duncan for having Manu, Parker, Bowen and other amazing players.
Shaq has played in the NBA 17 seasons, he only has 4 rings, he is not an automatic championship. In fact, he was not even in his physical prime during the threepeat championship run. He was significantly overweight almost every season during that run.

Double Standard 2: Duncan has played on a contending, elite team since he came into the NBA. Kobe has been rebuilding for 3 seasons in the 2000's (2005,2006,2007) and he may still end up with more rings in the decade.

Myth 1: Duncan has more impact for his team .

Kobe's Roles for his team:

-Primary Scorer
-Primary Defender
-Primary go to player in 4th
-Primary playmaker

Duncan's Roles for team:

-Not a primary scorer (very well-balanced scoring)
-Bowen is the primary defender (Duncan anchors the paint, but Bowen denies penetration, guards best players on other team)
-Manu and Parker are the go to guys in the 4th (Duncan also has his moments, but he is not self-sufficient)
-Parker is the primary playmaker

Myth 2: Duncan is more dominant than Kobe.

If you are going to call Duncan dominant, I guess we should call Kevin Garnett and Elton Brand dominant as well. Don't confuse dominance with consistency. The truth of the matter is Kobe is far more dominant than Timmy.

80+ point games: Kobe 1, Duncan 0
70+ point games Kobe 1, Duncan 0
60+ point games: Kobe 4, Duncan 0
50+ point games: Kobe 24, Duncan 0
40+ point games: Kobe 100, Duncan 9

January 14, 2002: Kobe score 56 points in 3 quarters. Memphis scores 59 in 3 quarters.

December 20, 2005: Kobe outscores the entire Dallas Mavericks team 62-61 at the end of the third quarter. This is the first and only time a player has outscored a team after 3 quarters.

Kobe Bryant is the only player who has can outscore an entire opposing team, you dont' get any more dominant than that. No one else has come close to matching Kobe in that regard - not Shaq, not Jordan and definately not Duncan.

Myth 3: Tim Duncan is the most fundamentally sound player in the NBA.

Tim Duncan's game has weaknessses - free throw shooting, three point shooting.
Kobe Bryant's game does not have any weaknesses. He is the most complete player in the game.

Kobe Bryant:

4 Championship (2000,2001,2002, 2009)
6 NBA Finals (2000,2001,2002,2004,2008, 2009)
1 NBA Finals MVP
2 Scoring Titles (2006, 2007)
1 Gold Medal (2008)
2 All-Star MVP (2001,2007)
1 NBA MVP (2008)
7 NBA All NBA 1st team
7 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
3 30+ ppg seasons
6 2000+ point seasons
1 SDC (1996)

Tim Duncan:

4 Championships (1999,2003,2005,2007)
4 NBA Finals (1999,2003,2005,2007)
3 Finals MVP (1999,2003, 2005)
0 Scoring Titles
0 Gold Medals
1 All-Star MVP (2004)
2 NBA MVP (2003,2004)
9 NBA All NBA 1st team
9 NBA All-Defensive 1st team
0 30 ppg seasons
1 2000+ point seasons


Head-to-Head playoff series: 6

1999: Spurs beat Lakers 4-0
2001: Lakers beat Spurs 4-0
2002: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1
2003: Spurs beat Lakers 4-2
2004: Lakers beat Spurs 4-2
2008: Lakers beat Spurs 4-1

Head-to-Head Playoff series wins:
Kobe: 4
Duncan: 2

What the Future Holds:

Lakers: By far the best team in the West, Kobe is only 30 and all his core is way younger than he is. He will play dominant basketball till age 35, and can play well even up till 37 or 38 because Bynum will be a force by then. That gives Kobe 7-8 more contending seasons!

Lakers core: Bryant 30, Odom 29, Gasol 27, Bynum 20 , Artest 29


Spurs: Spurs are still a great team, same experienced core that has carried them so far, but everyone knows they are done. Age has caught up with them.

Spurs core: Richard Jefferson 29 , Duncan 32, Ginobili 31, Parker 26


Lakers will likely win 2-3 more rings, while Spurs will most likely not win any more rings. Duncan is a great player, one of the premier power forwards of all-time and this article is not taking anything away from him. But Kobe is more dominant than Duncan, and make no mistake that he will finish with more rings when its all said and done.


And just for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCG0JIorzGI

[branslowski]

Spelling. This is not the chat room if you are confused. Also, if you were going to say he is a better scorer, dont use total points, use the average. That gives a better indication of his performance. Way better. I have Oscar over Kobe because he was a better overall player. Its that simple. Better passer, rebounder, more efficient scorer, and a great defender. No holes in his game.

Kobe has no holes in his game...Can drop 50 on you and shut you down...Can easily pass the ball, can rebound, exc..Everything.

End result, my factual basis proves me right...You put little stock in the fact that he has 1 Title...0 Finals MVPs...Winning is a bigger impact in ranking players aswell...Also, I prefer All-Time Total points scored...It's a Better Idication.

Just compare the players on both Top 10 playoff list...Per game, and Total...I mean, some guy's who aint won sh!t is on that ppg list...Man is winning underrated or what?...You can get to the playoff 4 times in your whole 10yr career, lose in the 1st round every time...But avg 32 while losing, and be #1 on the ppg list...Then kids will look at it and claim that the guy is the Greatest Playoff player and winner of All-Time...I mean, look how High McGrady is on the Playoff ppg list?..:ohwell:

Again, my Total point list holds more water...

[phoenix18]

Kobe has no holes in his game...Can drop 50 on you and shut you down...Can easily pass the ball, can rebound, exc..Everything.

End result, my factual basis proves me right...You put little stock in the fact that he has 1 Title...0 Finals MVPs...Winning is a bigger impact in ranking players aswell...Also, I prefer All-Time Total points scored...It's a Better Idication.

Just compare the players on both Top 10 playoff list...Per game, and Total...I mean, some guy's who aint won sh!t is on that ppg list...Man is winning underrated or what?...You can get to the playoff 4 times in your whole 10yr career, lose in the 1st round every time...But avg 32 while losing, and be #1 on the ppg list...Then kids will look at it and claim that the guy is the Greatest Playoff player and winner of All-Time...I mean, look how High McGrady is on the Playoff ppg list?..:ohwell:

Again, my Total point list holds more water...
Winning is a TEAM related thing. You have to have a team. Do you really think that Oscar would have had a better team than the Laker/Celtics/76ers? Come on. Individually, Oscar did more on the court while not slacking in any areas. All around greatness. He not only CAN do everything he DID do everything for a whole season and came close to achieving that feat again. Maybe Kobe will pass Oscar statically, but overall there are maybe one or two players of Robertson's calibur and Kobe is not one of them. Maybe later on. BTW, what do you mean by PPG list is skewed and using Mcgrady as an example? When do you ever hear of people using total points to determine who was a better scorer? If that was the case, Malone would be a better scorer than Jordan.

[imdaman99]

Come on guys, no need for pulling out the BruceyBlitz copy and paste stats.

[Artillery]

Duncan has the most worthless championship out of any year (1999). And we all know about the NBA intervention in 2007 that cleared the way for Spurs to win. Lets get some asterisks attached to those rings please. He's certainly not a better "winner" (which seems like an empty/meaningless term anyways) than Kobe. Might appear that way because he hasn't had to go through the same fluctuations as Kobe has with the teams around them.

You forgot about the asterisk on the 2002 championship.

[rfm767]

Kobe is ahead. This forum is so full of haters you can't get unbiassed opinions. Ask among nba active players, guaranteed kobe takes lead.

[branslowski]

Winning is a TEAM related thing. You have to have a team. Do you really think that Oscar would have had a better team than the Laker/Celtics/76ers? Come on. Individually, Oscar did more on the court while not slacking in any areas. All around greatness. He not only CAN do everything he DID do everything for a whole season and came close to achieving that feat again. Maybe Kobe will pass Oscar statically, but overall there are maybe one or two players of Robertson's calibur and Kobe is not one of them. Maybe later on. BTW, what do you mean by PPG list is skewed and using Mcgrady as an example? When do you ever hear of people using total points to determine who was a better scorer? If that was the case, Malone would be a better scorer than Jordan.

OK, winning is a Team thing, but there has to be a leader who can lead his team to winning...:oldlol: @ you trying to play this off...Do you think MJ would be the GOAT if he had 0 Titles next to his name?...Hell noooo...humm.

What are you talking about?...Malone?...I said Playoff Total Points is the better indicator...Jordan is #1 on that list...I showed the list to prove the IMPORTANT PLAYOFF aka winning difference....

Kobe>>Oscar.

[Artillery]

You can regard him as whatever you want but he's a Center because he has the body of a Center and has actually played a lot of his career at Center, even with robinson there were basially 2 Centers.


piggybacked? :roll:

Let's see...

2000 playoffs: 21/5/4 on 44%
2001 playoffs: 29/7/6 on 47%
2002 playoffs: 27/6/5 on 43%
2009 playoffs: 30/6/5 on 46%

Kobe was never the best player on the Lakers while Shaq was still around. Duncan's always been the best player on the Spurs.


And you are faulting him for that??? And two of those he didn't piggy back him.

Duncan's never played next to anyone as good as Shaq. Replace Robinson with Shaq and Duncan would have three-peated too.

[phoenix18]

OK, winning is a Team thing, but there has to be a leader who can lead his team to winning...:oldlol: @ you trying to play this off...Do you think MJ would be the GOAT if he had 0 Titles next to his name?...Hell noooo...humm.

What are you talking about?...Malone?...I said Playoff Total Points is the better indicator...Jordan is #1 on that list...I showed the list to prove the IMPORTANT PLAYOFF aka winning difference....

Kobe>>Oscar.
Kobe wasnt even the leader for THREE of his titles. Come on. Okay, looking at the playoff list, Havlicek is better scorer than Hakeem? See, either way, its still flawed. If you play a lot of playoff games and score a decent clip, you are sure to be high on this total list.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Best Player of the Decade? Not Tim Duncan.



Double Standard 2: Duncan has played on a contending, elite team since he came into the NBA. Kobe has been rebuilding for 3 seasons in the 2000's (2005,2006,2007) and he may still end up with more rings in the decade.




This is most important.

Duncan has never had to go through the rebuilding process because when the Spurs landed him,

they were already a playoff team. The only reason they got him in the first place is because they purposely tanked to be in that position.


"animals need refuge"


:hammertime:

[phoenix18]

This is most important.

Duncan has never had to go through the rebuilding process because when the Spurs landed him,

they were already a playoff team. The only reason they got him in the first place is because they purposely tanked to be in that position.


"animals need refuge"


:hammertime:
Yeah and LA raped Memphis for Pau. Your point is?

[branslowski]

Kobe wasnt even the leader for THREE of his titles. Come on. Okay, looking at the playoff list, Havlicek is better scorer than Hakeem? See, either way, its still flawed. If you play a lot of playoff games and score a decent clip, you are sure to be high on this total list.

He is a better Scorer than Hakeem in the playoffs....Hakeem has the Greater moves...But Hondo is the better scorer...It isn't flawed and you know it...

Big O wasn't the Leader for no titles...Kobe had a big hand in all 4 Titles...Big O had a hand in 1...Kobe more clutch, better defense, scorer...exc..I proved all these things with FACTS.

[phoenix18]

He is a better Scorer than Hakeem in the playoffs....Hakeem has the Greater moves...But Hondo is the better scorer...It isn't flawed and you know it...

Big O wasn't the Leader for no titles...Kobe had a big hand in all 4 Titles...Big O had a hand in 1...Kobe more clutch, better defense, scorer...exc..I proved all these things with FACTS.
:roll: Hondo a better scorer than Hakeem? Stop right there. There is NO WAY that is a FACT. Please. Did you hear what I am saying? No one knocks Wilt for his lack of titles to Kobe because they know that the Celtics had multiple HOF's. You cannot beat that. And dont forget the Lakers with West/Goodrich and Baylor. It was Oscar and Twyman. Not really a eye-popping combination.

[Artillery]

Kobe is ahead. This forum is so full of haters you can't get unbiassed opinions. Ask among nba active players, guaranteed kobe takes lead.

Haters? This thread alone is full of posts from Kobe homers. Duncan being ahead of Kobe is NOT an unbiased opinion considering the fact that he has just as many championships as Kobe as well as one more MVP and two more Finals MVPs. You can also factor in his superior career PER numbers and his nine All-NBA 1st teams teams(compared to seven for Kobe) as well as his eight All-Defensive 1st teams(compared to seven for Kobe). It's ridiculous that some of you act like it's heresy to pick TD over Kobe.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Yeah and LA raped Memphis for Pau. Your point is?


The point is already there you nimwit.

How many times do I have to say it?

Or did you not read this part?



Duncan has never had to go through the rebuilding process




btw, in no way is making a trade for your team the same as purposely tanking to get a draft pick.


"in the land, of the lost"

:hammertime:

[Showtime]

It was Oscar and Twyman. Not really a eye-popping combination.
There were internal issues between the players and the team. Many players didn't like how the team ran, especially after the Stokes issue. Losing Stokes probably cost them a chance at taking out Boston when they pushed them to 7 games. I've read that Oscar thought race was a factor in how the team marketed Lucas. Lucas himself said during his time there that he lost hope of being a real winner, and that his own effort for a time was not 100%. For one reason or another, that team never came together and reached it's potential. But it doesn't mean Robertson wasn't one of the game's greatest talents ever.

[Artillery]

This is most important.

Duncan has never had to go through the rebuilding process because when the Spurs landed him,

they were already a playoff team. The only reason they got him in the first place is because they purposely tanked to be in that position.


"animals need refuge"


:hammertime:

Huh? What would you call the period between 2000 and 2003? The Spurs have rebuilt their team around Duncan numerous times. Difference is that the Spurs gradually tweaked their squad over a decade while the Lakers received an over night gift from Jerry West.

There isn't a single player from the 1999 championship team on the current Spurs squad(aside from TD). The fact that the Spurs were able to rebuild AND still contend proves how important Duncan is to Spurs. He won a championship while in a transition period without any all stars(2003) while Kobe was struggling to make the playoffs during the Lakers rebuilding process.

[JustinJDW]

Duncan will be better than Kobe when he can take players in the vein of Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown to the playoffs,

starting alongside him.Legends are measured by Championships, not 8th Seed Playoff Appearances.

:oldlol:


No

3 NBA Finals MVP > 1 Finals MVP
2x NBA MVP > 1 NBA MVP

Tim Duncan is a much better playoffs performer than Kobe, and the Spurs are the winningest team in this decade.:applause:


Sorry, but losing two Finals and missing the playoffs in the prime of his career does not place Kobe on the same status as Duncan. Tim Duncan would have never lost a Finals with 3 HOF teammates at his disposal, nor would he have ever missed the playoffs in his prime, regardless of who his teammates were because Duncan just got the job done.

This is more of an insult to Duncan than a compliment to Kobe.:applause:

[ShaqAttack3234]

To the idiotic person who said Duncan is not the primary scorer on his team. Duncan was the leading scorer on all 4 championship teams he played on, and by a great margin in 1999, 2003 and to a lesser exent 2005. Kobe on the otherhand was 2nd on his team in scoring in the regular season, playoffs and finals every season during the 3peat.

[phoenix18]

To the idiotic who said Duncan is not the primary scorer on his team. Duncan was the leading scorer on all 4 championship teams he played on, and by a great margin in 1999, 2003 and to a lesser exent 2005. Kobe on the otherhand was 2nd on his team in scoring in the regular season, playoffs and finals every season during the 3peat.
Are you really Shaq?

[KAJ=GOAT]

Huh? What would you call the period between 2000 and 2003? The Spurs have rebuilt their team around Duncan numerous times. Difference is that the Spurs gradually tweaked their squad over a decade while the Lakers received an over night gift from Jerry West.

There isn't a single player from the 1999 championship team on the current Spurs squad(aside from TD). The fact that the Spurs were able to rebuild AND still contend proves how important Duncan is to Spurs. He won a championship while in a transition period without any all stars(2003) while Kobe was struggling to make the playoffs during the Lakers rebuilding process.


The Laker dynasty is what I call that period.

lol at the first sentence of your last paragraph. and? How many Lakers are left from the Lakers 04 squad besides Kobe? Walton, lol, and Fisher? Everyone knows Fisher dipped when that team was dismantled.

The Spurs didn't rebuild. They smartly made adjustment moves making minor changes and tweaks to the core and complimentary players as the years went by.

The Lakers roster was completely overhauled from one season to the next,


1 Shaquille O'Neal $26,517,858
2 Kobe Bryant $13,498,000
3 Gary Payton $4,917,000
4 Rick Fox $4,550,000
5 Devean George $4,545,000
6 Derek Fisher $3,000,000
7 Stanislav Medvedenko $1,500,000
8 Karl Malone $1,500,000
9 Kareem Rush $1,096,000
10 Horace Grant $1,070,000
11 Bryon Russell $1,070,000
12 Brian Cook $752,000
13 Jannero Pargo $563,679
14 Jamal Sampson $563,679
15 Maurice Carter *$366,931
16 Ime Udoka *$366,931
17 Luke Walton $366,931

1 Kobe Bryant $14,175,000
2 Brian Grant $13,233,434
3 Lamar Odom $10,548,596
4 Vlade Divac $4,903,000
5 Devean George $4,546,000
6 Chucky Atkins $4,200,000
7 Chris Mihm $3,371,393
8 Stanislav Medvedenko $3,000,000
9 Caron Butler $1,930,680
10 Jumaine Jones $1,687,500
11 Kareem Rush $1,174,200
12 Brian Cook $971,160
13 Sasha Vujacic $846,840
14 Tierre Brown $720,046
15 Luke Walton $620,046
16 Tony Bobbitt $305,403

Unless you're counting Devean George, Medvedenko, Brian Cook, and Luke Walton as the core of the Lakers.

You really don't see a drastic difference from one year to the next in comparison to the Spurs whos changes were never as dramatic? Really?


lol at the Spurs rebuilding.

Get outta here with that nonsense. Only someone with an agenda would say otherwise.


"you talk too much, and you never shut up"

:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

Legends are measured by Championships, not 8th Seed Playoff Appearances.

:oldlol:

:applause:

:applause:


and Kobe has won 4 of them so what exactly is your point?

If following the discussion in its proper context is too hard for you, please, don't engage me.

I never said an 8th seed was something significant in its own right, only that with the squad the Lakers had those years, those same years where many an expert picked LA to not even make the playoffs and hover around the 11th or 12th spot in the conference,

he led his team of d leaguers to the exact place where it was said he couldn't.

Which furthers my point that,

Tim Duncan has never had to do that in comparison because the Spurs organization always made sure he had the perfect role players at his side.


Its really not that hard of a concept to grasp.


"Lets take a trip, but not of the physical"

:hammertime:

[andgar923]

81 POINTS!!!!!!

http://farzan3.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/bryant-81.jpg