Minus the Rings and MVPs, Kobe or Magic?

[ThatBigBlackGuy]

Who would be better to you?

[Myth]

Magic is the answer.

[Collie]

Magic no contest. Guy was a top 5 all time NBA talent and player.

[Lebron23]

Magic Johnson

[vert48]

Magic, and it is not close.

[Jacks3]

Kobe Bryant easily.
He's a far better scorer, a far better defensive player, and draws a lot more defensive attention. He's also the better shooter and has constantly played in a tougher defensive era and still put up far better numbers.

[gxL]

Kobe Bryant easily.
He's a far better scorer, a far better defensive player, and draws a lot more defensive attention. He's also the better shooter and has constantly played in a tougher defensive era and still put up far better numbers.
i'm a kobe fan too. kobe is my favourite nba player of all time. but until he gets his own statue, he won't be as great as magic

[OldSchoolBBall]

Easily Magic. Kobe has never approached Magic's on court impact.

[G-train]

Easily Magic. Kobe has never approached Magic's on court impact.

:applause:
This sums it up.

[ElBronco]

Magic man! What is this crap?

[Lebron23]

Easily Magic. Kobe has never approached Magic's on court impact.

http://sarcasticgamer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Corrie_Winner.jpg

OldShoolBBall

[L.Kizzle]

(-) the rings and MVPs, Magic is John Stockton. (-) the rings and MVPs, Kobe is George Gervin.
Take your pick.

[lilgodfather1]

Hate aside I have to go with Kobe because he actually plays defense. No matter how overrated that D is, he still actually plays it and that is something that Magic didn't do as well.

[lilgodfather1]

(-) the rings and MVPs, Magic is John Stockton. (-) the rings and MVPs, Kobe is George Gervin.
Take your pick.
As a player i'd easily take Stockton over Magic because he is a better overall player. Stats do not explain defense. Without the rings Magic is a taller version of steve Nash.

[Fatal9]

Easily Magic. Kobe has never approached Magic's on court impact.
Actually, PER tells me it's the other way around. So I was just wondering when we are allowed to use it? Is it only when it doesn't help Kobe? :confusedshrug:


(-) the rings and MVPs, Magic is John Stockton. (-) the rings and MVPs, Kobe is George Gervin.
Take your pick.
:oldlol:

[Heilige]

Easily Magic. Kobe has never approached Magic's on court impact.


What more would Kobe have to accomplish in your view for him to be on or surpass Magic Johnson? Not saying he is on his level now.

[lilgodfather1]

What more would Kobe have to accomplish in your view for him to be on or surpass Magic Johnson? Not saying he is on his level now.
Kobe as a singular player has been on Magics level for almost his entire career minus the first few years. But in order for Kobe to get to Magics level on the GOAT list he needs to win at least 2 more finals MVPs and keep up his stats. I doubt he can do either, he has already started his decline.

[godofgods]

Magic, his fans are less annoying.

[White Chocolate]

Earvin. Kobe is a great individual talent, probably more so than Magic. But, Magic brought many intangibles. As good as Kobe is, he doesn't bring those intangibles like Magic did.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Actually, PER tells me it's the other way around. So I was just wondering when we are allowed to use it? Is it only when it doesn't help Kobe? :confusedshrug:


:oldlol:

As if you didn't know that PER is notorious for underrating pass first PG's. :oldlol: And Magic was the best of that type of player.

[hayden695]

No PG did as much as Magic did, there have been SG's better than Kobe (Jordan, and some would argue West although I personally wouldn't).

Magic was just too great. He brought intangibles, rebounded nuts and most importantly made his team better.

Kobe has made his teammates better, but hasn't always and basketball is a team sport. Kobe is also a better shooter, but he is a SHOOTING guard, not a point guard so it's expected.

[ThatBigBlackGuy]

Kobe as a singular player has been on Magics level for almost his entire career minus the first few years. But in order for Kobe to get to Magics level on the GOAT list he needs to win at least 2 more finals MVPs and keep up his stats. I doubt he can do either, he has already started his decline.
Everybody but this idiot and Jacks3 knows It's MAGIC.

[BallersTalk]

Magic. The only reason Kobe gets close is cause of those 3 rings Shaq got him early in his career.

[andgar923]

C/s those that mentioned 'intangibles.'

Kobe has them as well, but not on Magic's level. There's things that Kobe does better like score and play defense, but there's things that Magic does better, like create mismatch problems, LEAD, he's reliable when it matters... .like in the finals and playoffs, and is eons smarter.

So Magic and I wouldn't even hesitate for a nano second.

[BallersTalk]

Kobe - rings - mvp = Jerry Stackhouse

[jason816]

I'll pick Kobe, when he plays center in the NBA finals instead of Pau Gasol... actually... he has to play all 5 position and dominate the game...

but he's not capable of doing so...

so i'll pick Magic.

[andgar923]

Everybody but this idiot and Jacks3 knows It's MAGIC.

That's because they never actually got to see Magic play and UNDERSTAND basketball.

I mean.... I used to listen to the Beatles since I was in a crib, doesn't mean I knew why they were great or understood music.

And watching all the documentaries and reading all the info on them won't let me understand what things were like in that era.

[Quizno]

kinda depends on what your team needs :confusedshrug:

[Abraham Lincoln]

No contest. No disrespect to Bryant, but this is a very easy choice. Starting a franchise from nothing, the only proper selections ahead of Magic be Chamberlain, Russell, & Abdul-Jabbar.

The man made his teammates better, and not in the common way used to describe ever fringe all star. Magic was one of a handful of players. He would beat you with his team, then beat you with your own team.

[dyna]

Kobe Bryant easily.
He's a far better scorer, a far better defensive player, and draws a lot more defensive attention. He's also the better shooter and has constantly played in a tougher defensive era and still put up far better numbers.

Ang Magic is the better passer, rebounder, leader, team player and he can play four positions very well.

Magic is better.:pimp:

[nevetslc88]

uh who cares? there both on the lakers :banana:

[qrich]

Magic, his fans are less annoying.

:oldlol: QFT

[kshutts1]

No contest. No disrespect to Bryant, but this is a very easy choice. Starting a franchise from nothing, the only proper selections ahead of Magic be Chamberlain, Russell, & Abdul-Jabbar.

The man made his teammates better, and not in the common way used to describe ever fringe all star. Magic was one of a handful of players. He would beat you with his team, then beat you with your own team.
I think I like this response the most.

I don't really know which one to pick.. I have defended Kobe a little bit on these boards, but when it comes to this discussion... Kobe would win 1 on 1, but Magic is easier to build around. This is much like comparing Kidd to AI, IMO. Neither of them have titles to alter our opinions of them.. only difference is that in that comparison, the PG is the one that plays D, while the SG is the one that does not.

So... Kidd (minus his D) or Iverson (with D).. pretty much the same answer, IMO. And it's close... but I'd probably go with Kidd/Magic. As I said before, not necessarily better, but easier to build around.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I think I like this response the most.

I don't really know which one to pick.. I have defended Kobe a little bit on these boards, but when it comes to this discussion... Kobe would win 1 on 1, but Magic is easier to build around. This is much like comparing Kidd to AI, IMO. Neither of them have titles to alter our opinions of them.. only difference is that in that comparison, the PG is the one that plays D, while the SG is the one that does not.

So... Kidd (minus his D) or Iverson (with D).. pretty much the same answer, IMO. And it's close... but I'd probably go with Kidd/Magic. As I said before, not necessarily better, but easier to build around.
Even a 1-1 be a toss up, neither player could guard the other effectively enough without help.

[andgar923]

Even a 1-1 be a toss up, neither player could guard the other effectively enough without help.
Dunno about that.

I think Magic would have a harder time guarding him. But it won't be easy guarding Magic for Kobe either, I mean its not as if he's guarding Bron.

OUCH!@$#%%@#$%

[Abraham Lincoln]

Dunno about that.

I think Magic would have a harder time guarding him. But it won't be easy guarding Magic for Kobe either, I mean its not as if he's guarding Bron.

OUCH!@$#%%@#$%

He could back down every single time at will and employ his junior hook or lighting quick underhand flip shot.

Whoever recieves first possession shall be the victor.

[YAWN]

Kobe - rings - mvp = Jerry Stackhouse
:roll:

wow

[momo]

As a player i'd easily take Stockton over Magic because he is a better overall player. Stats do not explain defense. Without the rings Magic is a taller version of steve Nash.

Are you a troll / gimmick account or just that stupid? I have to give you credit, it is a spectacular breed of stupidity.

Enjoy it.
http://www.admit-one.net/webimages/needleidiot.jpg

[KingLeBronJames]

Kobe - rings - mvp = Jerry Stackhouse
I thought New York fans are the most knowledgeable when it comes to basketball.

[DCL]

one-on-one? kobe

but 5-on-5 and making your whole team better, plus doing the all around triple double thing here and there and just simply dominating in all facets of the game in multiple positions while mastering everything? is this comparison even a joke? magic, hands down.

[Toizumi]

Ang Magic is the better passer, rebounder, leader, team player and he can play four positions very well.

Magic is better.:pimp:

This :applause: Kobe is be better defensively, but overall I'd take Magic.

Offensively - Magic played 5 positions and as a PG created a lot of mismatches because of his height. Magic didnt average as many points as Kobe, but he was way more effecient. Stats dont tell the story, but:

Magic: 19.5 PPG on .520 FG with 11.2 APG and 3.9 TO
Kobe: 25.1 PPG on .455FG with 4.6 APG and 2.9 TO

Kobe hasnt always had the same great teammates as Magic (to finish his passes + he had to take more bad shots) but we can't make m trade places to see how they wouldve done in eachother situations :oldlol:

Both are greats. But I prefer Magic.

[Knoe Itawl]

As usual, with these types of threads, everyone else says one thing, Kobe Fanatics say another............

[Mdog1]

Are you a troll / gimmick account or just that stupid? I have to give you credit, it is a spectacular breed of stupidity.

Enjoy it.
http://www.admit-one.net/webimages/needleidiot.jpg
Are you joking? You are telling me that you wouldn't take John Stockton over Magic Johnson? You take away the rings, the MVPs and give them the same team and I take Stockton 9/10 times. You guys are redculous.

[godofgods]

As a player i'd easily take Stockton over Magic because he is a better overall player. Stats do not explain defense. Without the rings Magic is a taller version of steve Nash.

Now, don't insult Nash like that. Magic never shot as good as Nash, not even close.

Nash = Larry Bird + Magic Johnson.

[Rameek]

Magic is the best basketball player IMHO ever!:pimp:

[HighFlyer23]

Magic is overrated, but he's still better than Kobe

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at anyone who thinks this is a landslide btw. It's actually a really close comparison, so close that I couldn't decide who I'd take without looking at what the team needs. I like Magic but dude is clearly remembered to be better than he actually was if people think he is this untouchable.

[Knoe Itawl]

:oldlol: at anyone who thinks this is a landslide btw. It's actually a really close comparison, so close that I couldn't decide who I'd take without looking at what the team needs. I like Magic but dude is clearly remembered to be better than he actually was if people think he is this untouchable.

:eek: Surprising post!!!

[Dave3]

:oldlol: at anyone who thinks this is a landslide btw. It's actually a really close comparison, so close that I couldn't decide who I'd take without looking at what the team needs. I like Magic but dude is clearly remembered to be better than he actually was if people think he is this untouchable.
I love reading your posts, they're always so entertaining lol

[Abraham Lincoln]

:oldlol: at anyone who thinks this is a landslide btw. It's actually a really close comparison, so close that I couldn't decide who I'd take without looking at what the team needs. I like Magic but dude is clearly remembered to be better than he actually was if people think he is this untouchable.
Unless the team already has a peaked Oscar Robertson, then Magic be the proper choice.

[lilgodfather1]

Unless the team already has a peaked Oscar Robertson, then Magic be the proper choice.
Or if the team needs scoring and defense neither of which were Magics speacialty. In fact I believe Magic only made a defensive team 1 time in his career. When talking about a basketball player I value D over every thing unlike most ISHers. Kobe Bryant is a better defender, thus he is a better overall player considering that they are similar in offensive strength (I know they had different offensive strengths).

[catch24]

prime vs prime it can go either way, honestly...

Magic: gives you instant leadership, will find you open "gimmies", shot the ball at a high %, high IQ.

Kobe: gives you 26-30 points daily (decent shooting %), bad shot selection, plays great perimeter 1v1 defense, is clutch.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Or if the team needs scoring and defense neither of which were Magics speacialty. In fact I believe Magic only made a defensive team 1 time in his career. When talking about a basketball player I value D over every thing unlike most ISHers. Kobe Bryant is a better defender, thus he is a better overall player considering that they are similar in offensive strength (I know they had different offensive strengths).
Offense is more than scoring. Bryant is not 1/2 of what Earvin Johnson was as a playmaker and a mismatch. Johnson was a defensive liability either, considering his knees. Bryant's defensive impact depending on the year would be minimal in comparison to a big man, which would be the first choice for plugging in a defensive need. There is no way Bryant is close to a peaked Magic, let alone superior.

[Abraham Lincoln]

prime vs prime it can go either way, honestly...

Magic: gives you instant leadership, will find you open "gimmies", shot the ball at a high %, high IQ.

Kobe: gives you 26-30 points daily (decent shooting %), bad shot selection, plays great perimeter 1v1 defense, is clutch.
Magic would consistently create "gimmies" out of sh*t & see passing lanes that you, I, or Bryant could not see with 10 minutes of slo-mo replay. In the half court sets as well as on the break this man showed how to embarrass an opponent through the art of passing, as be the case with Larry Bird. For as much admiration as Magic's no look pass is shown, his 1 arm baseball pass was as good if not better.

[BlackMamba24]

kobe is better than magic because he's the goat...

81..62 in 3..35 PPG goat like season..mvp (should be 7), finals mvp, 4 rings, carried scrubs to the finals twice and now a championship, carried Shaq to 3 rings...shutdown jordan in 2003 all star game

Jan '06:
43.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.1 apg, 47% FG, 40% 3pt

Apr '06:
41.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.5 apg, 51% FG, 41% 3pt

March '07:
40.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 4.5 apg, 46% FG, 37% 3pt

basically the goat. second to none. :bowdown:

kobe's defense>magic's

[Knoe Itawl]

Location: kobe's nuts

lol. Fatal also resides at your location only he likes to pretend his address is unpublished. We know where he lives, however.

[Story Up]

Magic is overrated, but he's still better than Kobe

Kobe is taken for granted specifically on this forum, to the point where I just ignore debates that involve Kobe. In terms of skill set I wouldn't even necessarily say there is a player past or present that is clear cut better then Kobe. I just notice every time Kobe is compared to a Jordan, Bird, Magic and so on; some people think it's an insult to those legends. Kobe is 30 years old, he played 8 years behind a certain dominant center and he still accomplished so much in his career that it is almost comparable to those legends. Of course he still has a solid 4-5 years left as a leader of his own team but I just find it funny how people neglect him from being mentioned in the same breathe as those legends.

I watched them all and I see almost a replica of dominance between Kobe and those guys. It was a much different game back in the day, a lot faster and with offense being the main objective of any team. Teams back then scored 110 points almost every game, out of all the game winners that Bird or Magic or Jordan hit have you ever seen 3-4 defenders storming them the way they do Kobe? Just think about that for a second.

I don't think Kobe is better then Magic (yet), but he could pass him when his jersey is retired. He still has a lot left in him and a lot more accolades to accomplish, skill wise Kobe is just as good as any player past or present, IMO.

His decision making (intangibles) is why some fans (rightfully so) do not think Kobe should be considered as good as some of those legends. It's weird that Kobe displays such poor decision making on occasions when we all know he is one of the more intelligent players to EVER play this game.

Even when he was commenting with the TNT crew in the past this guy seemed to know more then anyone on the crew about the game.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe is taken for granted specifically on this forum, to the point where I just ignore debates that involve Kobe.

Or maybe people put him where he SHOULD be. A great player who doesn't deserve to be mentioned with those better than him. It seems simple but Kobe guys make it sooo hard. As for taking him for granted, maybe you've missed all the fanatics who overhype everything he does??

In terms of skill set I wouldn't even necessarily say there is a player past or present that is clear cut better then Kobe.

The nebulous "skills" argument which is meaningless. "Skills" doesn't matter, only IMPACT. You could say Chris Paul is more "skilled" than a prime Shaq. Who are you taking on your team? Kobe Guys always use the skills argument as if it really means anything.

I just notice every time Kobe is compared to a Jordan, Bird, Magic and so on; some people think it's an insult to those legends.

That's because it is.

Kobe is 30 years old, he played 8 years behind a certain dominant center and he still accomplished so much in his career that it is almost comparable to those legends.

Three second fiddle titles, 1 title as the man, one MVP, one Finals MVP is not comparable to Bird, Magic, Jordan et al. And you can't have it both ways. You can't praise him for winning 3 titles, then complain that he played behind a dominant center because he wouldn't HAVE those titles were it not for that center. Can't have it both ways.

Of course he still has a solid 4-5 years left as a leader of his own team but I just find it funny how people neglect him from being mentioned in the same breathe as those legends.

Maybe they don't think he's EARNED it? Nah, couldn't be. They just like hating on poor old Kobe.


I watched them all and I see almost a replica of dominance between Kobe and those guys. It was a much different game back in the day, a lot faster and with offense being the main objective of any team. Teams back then scored 110 points almost every game, out of all the game winners that Bird or Magic or Jordan hit have you ever seen 3-4 defenders storming them the way they do Kobe? Just think about that for a second.

This post here shows that you're just a hopeless Kobe Homer and should be dismissed. This bullshyt "Kobe has it so tough" argument that's been shot down a hundred times and that ONLY Kobe Guys use. It's garbage.

I don't think Kobe is better then Magic (yet), but he could pass him when his jersey is retired. He still has a lot left in him and a lot more accolades to accomplish, skill wise Kobe is just as good as any player past or present, IMO.

Again with the "skills" thing.

His decision making (intangibles) is why some fans (rightfully so) do not think Kobe should be considered as good as some of those legends. It's weird that Kobe displays such poor decision making on occasions when we all know he is one of the more intelligent players to EVER play this game.

If he's so intelligent, why is his decision making so poor at times? Either he's not as intelligent as you think or he has this narcissistic urge to do things his way, even if it directly contradicts what he should do.

[Heilige]

If Story Up was a hopeless Kobe homer I don't believe he would be questioning his intelligence...

[Heilige]

According to Knoe Itawl(good post/I agree with)



I agree that Kobe's IQ is what keeps him from being even better than he currently is, but I also think that in his mind he feels that he's better than he actually is. And you know what? I can actually understand that a little. What I mean is, the guy can go on these legendary scoring streaks and just flat out make unbelievable shots from anywhere and put up points in bunches in a way that no other current player can. As a result, I think it actually HURTS his game because he thinks he really can do that all the time but reality says he can't. If he could score like that more consistantly, on a high fg% then look out because he really WOULD be the player that he is several times a year.

He gets suckered into making poor decisions because he knows that he's scored so much before, why wouldn't he be able to make this shot or that shot, or this shot? The problem is, he's never been the kind of consisant scorer that his huge outbursts lead some (including himself) to believe. Therefore, he will continue to score 50 points in several games, followed by 9-31s.

I think if he took a step back and went more for good shots every game (except when the shot clocki s winding down and he has no choice, obviously) and really tried to understand the tempo and flow of the game he could be much more than he already is. After 10 years in the league, however, I don't know if he will ever "get it" in that sense. Being the haater that I am, I hope he doesn't, but if he ever did I'd have to stop watching the NBA because then he would truly be the best, based on his actual game and not fan conjecture.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43653&page=5

[ShaqAttack3234]

kobe is not better than magic

81..62 in 3..35 PPG, but nowhere near a goat like season..mvp (the only one he truly deserved), 1 finals mvp, 4 rings(3 as the 2nd option), had great teammates in the finals twice and now with a championship, got carried by Shaq to 3 rings

This resume does not compare to Magic's


Fixed

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe Bryant easily.
He's a far better scorer, a far better defensive player, and draws a lot more defensive attention. He's also the better shooter and has constantly played in a tougher defensive era and still put up far better numbers.

:roll: This era makes it easier for perimeter players and Kobe did NOT average better numbers. Magic's rebounding, assist, FG% and steals numbers are far beyond Kobe's.

[Jacks3]

Ang Magic is the better passer, rebounder, leader, team player and he can play four positions very well.

Magic is better.:pimp:
Being a far better scorer and far better defensive player is more important then being a better passer and rebound er. Not to mention vastly better stats. Kobe is better.

[Jacks3]

:roll: This era makes it easier for perimeter players and Kobe did NOT average better numbers. Magic's rebounding, assist, FG% and steals numbers are far beyond Kobe's.
:oldlol: Kobe's PER is far better. Kobe is a far better scorer playing in a tougher, far less fast-paced era. Kobe is every bit as efficient when one consider volume. Kobe is a much better shooter. Kobe is 10 times the defender.

[BlackMamba24]

:oldlol: Kobe's PER is far better. Kobe is a far better scorer playing in a tougher, far less fast-paced era. Kobe is every bit as efficient when one consider volume. Kobe is a much better shooter. Kobe is 10 times the defender.
simply the goat :bowdown:

[catch24]

:oldlol: Kobe's PER is far better. Kobe is a far better scorer playing in a tougher, far less fast-paced era. Kobe is every bit as efficient when one consider volume. Kobe is a much better shooter. Kobe is 10 times the defender.

You cannot compare Magic's PER to Kobe's given he was a pass first player. He didn't need to score 30-40, rather dished out 11 dimes and broke teams down with his brilliant facilitation. He played his position perfectly.

Prime vs Prime, you cannot go wrong with either player though..

[kshutts1]

For all of those posters "hating on" (or, in your opinion I'm sure, being realistic about) Kobe... what would he have to do over the next 4 years to be mentioned in the same breath as the legends?

I am a Kobe fan, though I like to consider myself a realist as well... and I think that comparing Kobe, and his impact on the court, to any player EVER (except maybe Wilt) is pretty valid. Matched up against any individual player, Kobe has at least one, if not multiple, advantages, and seriously.. the only deficient aspect of Kobe's game is that he forces too many shots... but as a first option that's almost a requirement.

I do not think he's the GOAT (nor will he ever be -- no such thing, impossible to compare) but I can at least talk about him in the same breath... again, what would he have to accomplish over the next 4-5 years to become legendary?

[OldSchoolBBall]

For all of those posters "hating on" (or, in your opinion I'm sure, being realistic about) Kobe... what would he have to do over the next 4 years to be mentioned in the same breath as the legends?

I am a Kobe fan, though I like to consider myself a realist as well... and I think that comparing Kobe, and his impact on the court, to any player EVER (except maybe Wilt) is pretty valid. Matched up against any individual player, Kobe has at least one, if not multiple, advantages, and seriously.. the only deficient aspect of Kobe's game is that he forces too many shots... but as a first option that's almost a requirement.

I do not think he's the GOAT (nor will he ever be -- no such thing, impossible to compare) but I can at least talk about him in the same breath... again, what would he have to accomplish over the next 4-5 years to become legendary?

Play at a higher level than he's ever played at before, and do so for at least 4-5 seasons. Good luck Kobe.

LOL @ thinking that Kobe's impact matches up with any player ever. He can't see guys like Magic/Bird/Jordan/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq.

[kshutts1]

Play at a higher level than he's ever played at before, and do so for at least 4-5 seasons. Good luck Kobe.

LOL @ thinking that Kobe's impact matches up with any player ever. He can't see guys like Magic/Bird/Jordan/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq.
How does he not compare? Every single season that Kobe has had a good team around him, his team has either gone to the finals or lost to the eventual champions. Not to make him out to be better than any legends (I'm just trying to get him on par) but has any other player EVER done that? I mean EVERY. SINGLE. SEASON. he has had quality teammates, he has been in the Finals or lost to the champions.

That is absurd. And those years when Kobe didn't have quality teammates? Lost to the MVPs teams twice (I think) and missed the playoffs a third year. Hardly a poor resume.

[Jacks3]

You cannot compare Magic's PER to Kobe's given he was a pass first player. He didn't need to score 30-40, rather dished out 11 dimes and broke teams down with his brilliant facilitation. He played his position perfectly.

Prime vs Prime, you cannot go wrong with either player though..
PER measures all stats not just PPG.

[catch24]

PER measures all stats not just PPG.

I realize that, but it benefits Kobe - he nearly doubles Magic's points/attempts lol..

[Jacks3]

I realize that, but it benefits Kobe - he nearly doubles Magic's points/attempts lol..
Yeah, but the fact that PER also ignores defense and overrates rebounding benefits Magic.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: Kobe's PER is far better. Kobe is a far better scorer playing in a tougher, far less fast-paced era. Kobe is every bit as efficient when one consider volume. Kobe is a much better shooter. Kobe is 10 times the defender.

Not this PER garbage again. And I don't care about pace, 2004-2005 has been an incredibly soft era defensively. The 80's was a much better era overall. It's considered by many to be the golden era of basketball.

Kobe never had seasons this good, much less on great teams.

1982- 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 53.7 FG%, 38.3 mpg, 57 wins
1984- 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, 2.2 spg, 56.5 FG%, 80 FT%, 38.3 mpg, 54 wins
1987- 23.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 12.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 52.2 FG%, 84.8 FT%, 36.3 mpg, 65 wins
1989- 22.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 12.8 apg, 1.8 spg, 50.9 FG%, 91.1 FT%, 37.5 mpg, 57 wins
1990- 22.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 48 FG%, 38.4 3P%, 89 FT%, 37.2 mpg, 63 wins
1991- 19.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 12.5 apg, 47.7 FG%, 90.6 FT%, 37.1 mpg, 58 wins

[DKLaker]

Kobe Bryant easily.
He's a far better scorer, a far better defensive player, and draws a lot more defensive attention. He's also the better shooter and has constantly played in a tougher defensive era and still put up far better numbers.

Agreed. I love them both, they both were extremely exciting to watch.....but Kobe's Defense and Outrageous shooting put him over the top.
Ha, I bet most of the kids on here never saw Magic play except on Classics...lol.

Magic played on a team of all-stars with a fastbreaking style....this will be the first season that Kobe will play on a team remotely as good as Magic's Lakers.

[KoolKat]

Not this PER garbage again. And I don't care about pace, 2004-2005 has been an incredibly soft era defensively. The 80's was a much better era overall. It's considered by many to be the golden era of basketball.

You can also tell that the 80s were also a stat-friendly decade. An average team was putting like 110 PPG.

[Jacks3]

Not this PER garbage again. And I don't care about pace, 2004-2005 has been an incredibly soft era defensively. The 80's was a much better era overall. It's considered by many to be the golden era of basketball.

Kobe never had seasons this good, much less on great teams.

1982- 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 53.7 FG%, 38.3 mpg, 57 wins
1984- 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, 2.2 spg, 56.5 FG%, 80 FT%, 38.3 mpg, 54 wins
1987- 23.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 12.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 52.2 FG%, 84.8 FT%, 36.3 mpg, 65 wins
1989- 22.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 12.8 apg, 1.8 spg, 50.9 FG%, 91.1 FT%, 37.5 mpg, 57 wins
1990- 22.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 48 FG%, 38.4 3P%, 89 FT%, 37.2 mpg, 63 wins
1991- 19.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 12.5 apg, 47.7 FG%, 90.6 FT%, 37.1 mpg, 58 wins
The 80's were not better defensively. Teams played at a far higher pace. The league average back then was like 110+ PPG on 47% shooting. Today's defenses are far better. Kobe's 05/06, 06-07, 07-08, 00-01, 08-09 seasons were all better. Especially considering he had far weaker supporting casts and played at a far better defensive era with a far lower pace.

[catch24]

Yeah, but the fact that PER also ignores defense and overrates rebounding benefits Magic.

Actually it accounts for steals/blocks which is a form of Defense. Overrates rebounding? lol. If it overrated rebounding he'd be ahead of Kobe in PER - odd, that he did much more on the floor.

Magic's highest PER 27 ('87): 23pts 12ast 6reb

Tracy Mcgrady's PER 30: ('03): 32pts 5ast 6reb

does that mean Mcgrady had more impact? Or was better? Points/Attempts = Overrate PER, especially when cross comparing positions.

The proper PER comparison would be Mcgrady vs Kobe, Kobe vs Michael Jordan, David Robinson vs Hakeem Olajuwon, etc.

[purple32gold]

As a player i'd easily take Stockton over Magic because he is a better overall player. Stats do not explain defense. Without the rings Magic is a taller version of steve Nash.
you should be strung up and crucified for that mess. magic johnson revolutionized basketball and became a leader on a team that already had 2 other guys that could have been household names if they would have been on other teams, but together MJ made them and the laker franchise better (talking about james and kareem btw). i love stockton, but seriously. magics name should never be mentioned in the same sentence as steve as much as i enjoy watching steve play and i honestly think he's a top ten of all time PG (thats for another thread). magic isn't just one of the greatest pg's hes one of the greatest players of all time. if you wanna argue against magic all im gonna do is post this link...because i dunno when the HELL the last time a friggin ROOKIE subbed in a position not his own (for a GOAT C btw) and put up 42 points/15 boards/7 assists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_NBA_Finals


oh and to answer the question. magic johnson >kobe bryant. i love both players but in the little time magic played he amassed to much and did so much for the franchise and the sport.

[OldSchoolBBall]

How does he not compare? Every single season that Kobe has had a good team around him, his team has either gone to the finals or lost to the eventual champions. Not to make him out to be better than any legends (I'm just trying to get him on par) but has any other player EVER done that? I mean EVERY. SINGLE. SEASON. he has had quality teammates, he has been in the Finals or lost to the champions.

That is absurd. And those years when Kobe didn't have quality teammates? Lost to the MVPs teams twice (I think) and missed the playoffs a third year. Hardly a poor resume.

LMAO @ acting like Kobe has done something unprecedented. Your sample size is two seasons, first off (not counting '00-'03 because Kobe WAS the "quality teammate" then), and secondly it's not like he had to go through elite comp to get to the Finals. His biggest test was a past prime SA team with its second best player hobbled.

[KoolKat]

LMAO @ acting like Kobe has done something unprecedented. Your sample size is two seasons, first off (not counting '00-'03 because Kobe WAS the "quality teammate" then), and secondly it's not like he had to go through elite comp to get to the Finals. His biggest test was a past prime SA team with its second best player hobbled.

Eight 50 wins team in the Playoffs.

[Jacks3]

Actually it accounts for steals/blocks which is a form of Defense.
Kobe's man-to-man and help D is far better. It doesn't account for that.

Overrates rebounding? lol. If it overrated rebounding he'd be ahead of Kobe in PER - odd, that he did much more on the floor.

It's well-known that PER overrates rebounding.

Magic's highest PER 27 ('87): 23pts 12ast 6reb

Tracy Mcgrady's PER 30: ('03): 32pts 5ast 6reb

does that mean Mcgrady had more impact? Or was better? Points/Attempts = Overrate PER, especially when cross comparing positions.
Tracy scored far more on similar efficiency, got more steals and blocks, and did it on a far slower paced team. His season, statistically, was better.
Point/attempts don't overrate PER because it also takes into account efficiency and pace. That's why somebody like A.I never put up great PER numbers despite scoring 32+ PPG.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The 80's were not better defensively. Teams played at a far higher pace. The league average back then was like 110+ PPG on 47% shooting. Today's defenses are far better. Kobe's 05/06, 06-07, 07-08, 00-01, 08-09 seasons were all better. Especially considering he had far weaker supporting casts and played at a far better defensive era with a far lower pace.

I don't give a **** what the league average was. Today's defense sucks, any contact on a perimeter player and they get free throws. The league was actually physical when Magic played. None of this *****, n-hand-checking BS.

Look at where Magic was among league leaders in the seasons I posted.

1982- 1st in steals, 2nd in assists, 11th in rebounding, 19th in FG%

The leader in assists also averaged just 0.1 more than Magic, Magic was just 0.4 rpg and 0.5 apg from averaging a triple double.

1984- 1st in assists, 5th in steals, 12th in FG%

He averaged 2 more assists than anyone else in the NBA.

1987- 1st in assists, 10th in scoring, 16th in steals, 20th in FT%

Once again Magic averaged far more assists(1.9) than anyone else. Individual scoring averages were not through the roof either as Michael jordan was the only player to average over 30.

1989- 2nd in assists, 15th in scoring

1990- 1st in FT%, 2nd in assists, 5th in 3 pointers made, 7th in FT%, 18th in scoring, 18th in 3P%

1991- 2nd in assists, 5th in FT%, 13th in 3 pointers made

As you can see Magic's numbers are equally impressive when you compare him to his peers.

[catch24]

Kobe's man-to-man and help D is far better. It doesn't account for that.

It's well-known that PER overrates rebounding.

Tracy scored far more on similar efficiency, got more steals and blocks, and did it on a far slower paced team. His season, statistically, was better.
Point/attempts don't overrate PER because it also takes into account efficiency and pace. That's why somebody like A.I never put up great PER numbers despite scoring 32+ PPG.

Rebounding is part of the game. If anything PER overrates points considering guards shoot more than bigs (at least now a days). Actually Magic and Mcgrady were equal in steals at 1.7 per game. Tracy barely led in blocks with 0.8 compared to Magic's 0.5. Again, ATTEMPTS/Points totally skew the comparison. You can't say Kobe > Magic because of PER, just doesn't any make sense.


That's why somebody like A.I never put up great PER numbers despite scoring 32+ PPG.

He had a 20+ PER nearly every season including one with a 26+. His fg%, and turnovers are why he is not up there with other great perimeter players when we talk about PER.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]I don't give a **** what the league average was. Today's defense sucks, any contact on a perimeter player and they get free throws. The league was actually physical when Magic played. None of this *****, n-hand-checking BS.
Yet teams back then scored far more on higher %'s. The defense wasn't as good.

[DuMa]

Magic

[catch24]

PER tells me Mcgrady's 2003 season > Any of Magic Johnson's/Kobe's?

Nah, sorry dude.

[Jacks3]

Rebounding is part of the game. If anything PER overrates points considering guards shoot more than bigs (at least now a days). Actually Magic and Mcgrady were equal in steals at 1.7 per game. Tracy barely led in blocks with 0.8 compared to Magic's 0.5. Again, ATTEMPTS/Points totally skew the comparison. You can't say Kobe > Magic because of PER, just doesn't any make sense.


And scoring is a far more important part of the game. Tracy did his production at a far lower pace and averaged 7 more PPG. His season was better. Points should skew the comparison. They're the most important. Kobe's numbers being better is just one of the reasons he's better.

He had a 20+ PER nearly every season including one with a 26+. His fg%, and turnovers are why he is not up there with other great perimeter players when we talk about PER.
The years he was scoring 32+ PPG on bad efficiency his PER was mediocre. The year he had 26 is when he averaged 33/8/5/2 on good efficiency. PER takes into account efficiency not just volume.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yet teams back then scored far more on higher %'s. The defense wasn't as good.

Yeah, teams did. A big reason was the superior big men of that era. Another reason was that players were smarter and better passers on average back then.

[Jacks3]

You could say Mac's 02-03 season was better then any of Magic's/Kobe's statistically. Obviously, it doesn't take into account defense and intangibles. But if you ignore all that and just use pure numbers, it's true.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=Jacks3]

Yeah, teams did. A big reason was the superior big men of that era.
There were a lot of great big men in the 90's as well and yet the PPG and FG% was far lower. It's because the defenses from the 90's and 00's were far better.

[ShaqAttack3234]

There were a lot of great big men in the 90's as well and yet the PPG and FG% was far lower. It's because the defenses from the 90's and 00's were far better.

90's up until about 2004. After that the league decided to make it a lot easier for perimeter players, and the league has gone downhill in quality ever since.

[Heilige]

:oldlol: Kobe's PER is far better. Kobe is a far better scorer playing in a tougher, far less fast-paced era. Kobe is every bit as efficient when one consider volume. Kobe is a much better shooter. Kobe is 10 times the defender.


Jacks3, where do you feel Kobe will rank on the all-time list when he retires?

[Jacks3]

Yeah, teams did. A big reason was the superior big men of that era. Another reason was that players were smarter and better passers on average back then.
There were a bunch of great big-men in the 90's and yet teams still had far lower PPG and FG%. The defenses in the 90's and 00's were much better then the ones in the 80's.

[Jacks3]

90's up until about 2004. After that the league decided to make it a lot easier for perimeter players, and the league has gone downhill in quality ever since.
Doesn't change the fact that PPG and FG% even from 04-09 is still far fewer. The defenses today are better.

[Jacks3]

Jacks3, where do you feel Kobe will rank on the all-time list when he retires?
Somewhere in the top 8.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Doesn't change the fact that PPG and FG% even from 04-09 is still far fewer. The defenses today are better.

Against big men that's true. It's a lot easier for perimeter players, though.

[lilgodfather1]

you should be strung up and crucified for that mess. magic johnson revolutionized basketball and became a leader on a team that already had 2 other guys that could have been household names if they would have been on other teams, but together MJ made them and the laker franchise better (talking about james and kareem btw). i love stockton, but seriously. magics name should never be mentioned in the same sentence as steve as much as i enjoy watching steve play and i honestly think he's a top ten of all time PG (thats for another thread). magic isn't just one of the greatest pg's hes one of the greatest players of all time. if you wanna argue against magic all im gonna do is post this link...because i dunno when the HELL the last time a friggin ROOKIE subbed in a position not his own (for a GOAT C btw) and put up 42 points/15 boards/7 assists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_NBA_Finals


oh and to answer the question. magic johnson >kobe bryant. i love both players but in the little time magic played he amassed to much and did so much for the franchise and the sport.
Again my freind we are talking about taking away rings/MVPs. I agree Magic has a strong case for being the GOAT, and he is definately the GOAT PG, but as a player i'd take Stockton over him. That defense is just something that can't be over looked.

[shadow]

another Kobe vs "MJ" thread :rolleyes:

;)

Honestly Magic looks better because never played on a bad team like Kobe...did he? But then again give me the guy whose more likely to get everyone involved and keep their heads in the game over the guy who'll try to win it by himself (even with justification).

[catch24]

And scoring is a far more important part of the game. Tracy did his production at a far lower pace and averaged 7 more PPG. His season was better. Points should skew the comparison. They're the most important. Kobe's numbers being better is just one of the reasons he's better.

Not when you're a volume scorer who's putting up 23+ shot attempts on a low %. Pace or not, he didn't have the better season. Again, according to your logic TMAC's '03 season > Any of Kobe's & Magic's, correct? Rebounding, passing, and shooting a high % > Mediocre floor game and terrible shot selection.


The years he was scoring 32+ PPG on bad efficiency his PER was mediocre. The year he had 26 is when he averaged 33/8/5/2 on good efficiency. PER takes into account efficiency not just volume.

He's never averaged 32+, if you mean 33 - his PER was mediocre because of his turnovers, fg%. The reason his PER was at 26 had many factors: his fg% went up about 2%, his points went up about 1-2, his fta went up, as did his attempts. Thank you for proving my point.

[catch24]

You could say Mac's 02-03 season was better then any of Magic's/Kobe's statistically. Obviously, it doesn't take into account defense and intangibles. But if you ignore all that and just use pure numbers, it's true.

Lol, the hypocrisy is astounding!

[Heilige]

Somewhere in the top 8.


If you consider Kobe to be better than Magic, wouldn't you have him higher than top 8?

[purple32gold]

Again my freind we are talking about taking away rings/MVPs. I agree Magic has a strong case for being the GOAT, and he is definately the GOAT PG, but as a player i'd take Stockton over him. That defense is just something that can't be over looked.
you can have defense all you want ill take the over-sized PG that can run the floor offensively and rip through defenses with passes and scoring ability. magic didn't need to play defense. that's what lew alcindor was for.

[Jacks3]

Against big men that's true. It's a lot easier for perimeter players, though.
It's true for the entire league.

[Jacks3]

Not when you're a volume scorer who's putting up 23+ shot attempts on a low %.
PER doesn't reward you for this.

Pace or not, he didn't have the better season.
Statistically, he did.

Again, according to your logic TMAC's '03 season > Any of Kobe's & Magic's, correct? Rebounding, passing, and shooting a high % > Mediocre floor game and terrible shot selection.


Yes, statistically he did have a better season. PER doesn't measure shot selection, floor game.


He's never averaged 32+,
?05-06

if you mean 33 - his PER was mediocre because of his turnovers, fg%. The reason his PER was at 26 had many factors: his fg% went up about 2%, his points went up about 1-2, his fta went up, as did his attempts. Thank you for proving my point.
The year he averaged 33 he had a terrific PER. Mainly due to increased efficiency. Thanks for proving my point.

[Jacks3]

Lol, the hypocrisy is astounding!
lol how?

[branslowski]

:oldlol: @ The idiots saying.."It's not even close."

As if minus the Rings and Finals MVP's, and MVP's, that Kobe isn't nearly as good a pure player as Magic.

Not only can Kobe put up 50pts, but he can dish out 10ast, he can grab rebounds, he can get and hit any shot on the floor ppl...Kobe can take it to the rack, throw a floater in there, actually hit a 3pt shot, and play Lock Down defense, ball-denial, man to man, help...I mean, comparing the amount of things on the court that these guy's can do better than the other, I think the toll kinda falls in Kobe's corner....But hey, not knocking anyone's pick of Magic....

But look at it like this, the things that Magic does better than Kobe, Kobe can can actually do, just not as great but he can do it....

So close, but I think Kobe has this one....And lol at the usuals saying..."It's not close"....:oldlol:

[Jacks3]

If you consider Kobe to be better than Magic, wouldn't you have him higher than top 8?
The OP meant strictly as individual players. My All-Time list has to do with career.

[Heilige]

The OP meant strictly as individual players. My All-Time list has to do with career.



Even so, don't you think it's possible for Kobe to have a greater career than Magic? Then that would mean being higher that top 8, right? I am not saying he will have a better career, but he still has a chance.

[Abraham Lincoln]

another Kobe vs "MJ" thread :rolleyes:

;)

Honestly Magic looks better because never played on a bad team like Kobe...did he? But then again give me the guy whose more likely to get everyone involved and keep their heads in the game over the guy who'll try to win it by himself (even with justification).
There is no way in hell Bryant sniffs the Finals with the 1991 Lakers, let alone have his way with the top two perimeter defenders of all time.

[Duncan21formvp]

Who would be better to you?

Then you go by stats and playoff performances and top finals performances.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's true for the entire league.

:roll:

[catch24]

PER doesn't reward you for this.

Wrong, it does. Re-read the rules of PER "wee one". The more you shoot the likelier you're going to scorer, get some freethrows, etc. Didn't I just say fg% (efficiency) would help your PER - which in turn has to do with scoring, WHICH IS THE POINT, lol. Points based on attempts = Overrates PER.
Quote:


Statistically, he did.

Statistically he's had the best season out of Magic, Kobe. Therefor he's better.


Yes, statistically he did have a better season. PER doesn't measure shot selection, floor game.

Of course it doesn't measure shot selection, but shot attempts = more points which does account in PER, so does his fg% and productivity.


The year he averaged 33 he had a terrific PER. Mainly due to increased efficiency. Thanks for proving my point.

Yes, and like I stated before..his overall numbers other than scoring were all LOWER than the previous season(s). Iverson's PER at 26 was his best due to him being more efficient, shot more attempts freethrow and perimeter wise, which once again inflates his scoring - makes his PER better...

[Abraham Lincoln]

But look at it like this, the things that Magic does better than Kobe, Kobe can can actually do, just not as great but he can do it....

You implying Earvin could not play D or score at all?

Because the reality is they are much closer as scorers and defensive players than they are as passers and overall playmakers. The man could have easily averaged 30 ppg had he a shooters mindset.

[catch24]

lol how?

What do you mean how? You said Kobe does things that aren't on stat sheets. If you knew anything about Magic you'd know many of his intangibles were not either, rofl.

[Jacks3]

:roll:
FG% and PPG way down compared to the 80's. Fact.

[Jacks3]

What do you mean how? You said Kobe does things that aren't on stat sheets. If you knew anything about Magic you'd know many of his intangibles were not either, rofl.
So? You could same for both. But, numerically speaking, Kobe was better.

[branslowski]

You implying Earvin could not play D or score at all?
Because the reality is they are much closer as scorers and defensive players than they are as passers and overall playmakers. The man could have easily averaged 30 ppg had he a shooters mindset.

Near the level of Bryant?....No.

But as compared players minus those accolades...These guy's are close, and only an idiot with an Bias Agenda would think otherwise..(This at both sides, Bryant Stans...Bryant haters).

Also, not saying that Magic didn't know how to score....Nor am I saying he didn't know how to play defense.

[catch24]

So? You could same for both. But, numerically speaking, Kobe was better.

Again, the argument which should be considered reality (for most) is just because Bryant shoots more doesn't mean he's "better". Play some organized TEAM basketball for once in your life then try coming back here repeating that sentence. Magic played a completely different role/position. It's pure stupidity to cross compare position PER's.

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=catch24]Wrong, it does. Re-read the rules of PER "wee one". The more you shoot the likelier you're going to scorer, get some freethrows, etc. Didn't I just say fg% (efficiency) would help your PER - which in turn has to do with scoring, WHICH IS THE POINT, lol. Points based on attempts = Overrates PER.
No, PER doesn't reward you for a ton of points based on low efficiency, fool. Points on good efficiency is accurately placed in PER.




Statistically he's had the best season out of Magic, Kobe. Therefor he's better.
Yeah, if you ignore everything else. Like I said, PER is just one of multiple advantages Kobe has on Magic.



Of course it doesn't measure shot selection, but shot attempts = more points which does account in PER, so does his fg% and productivity.

But that should be the case. Naturally, points being more important then blks,stls, etc.


Yes, and like I stated before..his overall numbers other than scoring were all LOWER than the previous season(s). Iverson's PER at 26 was his best due to him being more efficient, shot more attempts freethrow and perimeter wise, which once again inflates his scoring - makes his PER better...
And it was his best season. PER correctly rates it.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe can only win when other teams best players are injured.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not only can Kobe put up 50pts, but he can dish out 10ast, he can grab rebounds, he can get and hit any shot on the floor ppl...Kobe can take it to the rack, throw a floater in there, actually hit a 3pt shot, and play Lock Down defense, ball-denial, man to man, help...I mean, comparing the amount of things on the court that these guy's can do better than the other, I think the toll kinda falls in Kobe's corner....But hey, not knocking anyone's pick of Magic....Yet his impact in a 5 on 5 setting does not approach that of Magic.

[Jacks3]

Again, the argument which should be considered reality (for most) is just because Bryant shoots more doesn't mean he's "better". Play some organized TEAM basketball for once in your life then try coming back here repeating that sentence. Magic played a completely different role/position. It's pure stupidity to cross compare position PER's.
And you're assuming that if Magic shot more he'd score at the same rate. That's ridiculous. Kobe is the much better scorer. If the OP is strictly comparing them as individual players, then that's a huge advantage. A huge advantage accurately reflected in PER-as it should be. It's only stupid for those too obtuse to comprehend it.

[catch24]

[QUOTE]
No, PER doesn't reward you for a ton of points based on low efficiency, fool. Points on good efficiency is accurately placed in PER.

You're definitely not comprehending well. Let me dumb this down...Field Goal % (when volume) does not reward a player when you're talking about PER, BUT it DOES effect your PER number....PER takes into account negatives (-) /positives (+). Do you get it now "wee one"?



Yeah, if you ignore everything else. Like I said, PER is just one of multiple advantages Kobe has on Magic.

This is what you're doing with Magic and every other player that's not Kobe - stop hanging from his cornhole and think logically. Again, comparing Magic's PER to Kobe's is foolish.



ut that should be the case. Naturally, points being more important then blks,stls, etc.

Points are important, but not impactful when you're a mediocre volume scorer/hurting your teams possessions. Overall floor game > Volume Scoring. That's the truth.


And it was his best season. PER correctly rates it.

No argument here, but you're in tune agreeing to my point, lol. PER = overrates points, volume or not. It takes fg% which brings down a players PER (depending on how he shot), but sky rockets when the points are up as well. Overall floor game > volume scoring, no doubt kiddo.

[catch24]

And you're assuming that if Magic shot more he'd score at the same rate. That's ridiculous. Kobe is the much better scorer. If the OP is strictly comparing them as individual players, then that's a huge advantage. A huge advantage accurately reflected in PER-as it should be. It's only stupid for those too obtuse to comprehend it.

Who said that? lol. I never assumed anything. I'm talking pure facts here. They play different positions, so comparing statistical production (especially scoring) is dumb. He ran showtime playing his position, point guard...Not the SG slot, ala Kobe. Those too dense to use volume scoring > all are the one's having trouble comprehending, let alone understanding the concept of team basketball - 5v5 based, not 1v1 matchups kiddo.

[CatchAndShoot]

http://www.nbainchina.com/wp-content/uploads/yao-ming-kiss.jpg

Yao: "I swear it was just once !!!" :ohwell:

[ShaqAttack3234]

FG% and PPG way down compared to the 80's. Fact.

The top perimeter players scoring and free throw attempts have been up psot 2004. Fact.

[branslowski]

Yet his impact in a 5 on 5 setting does not approach that of Magic.

Kobe's impact is bigger than you think, and I agree, not on Magic's level though, but impact translates to the success that impact places it's prints upon, and yes, Magic is the better winner (MVP's, Finals MVP's, Championships) but as individual players of the game...The if you placed the different diminsions in on court aspects these guy's can do, and place them against eachother, it's really close...If you pick one or the other, im cool with that, but to say it's not close from either side is borderline retardness...

[shadow]

There is no way in hell Bryant sniffs the Finals with the 1991 Lakers, let alone have his way with the top two perimeter defenders of all time.


errrr do you even know who all was on that 90-91 Laker team?
Not that I disagree with the sentiment, ie that Magic's impact>Kobe's evenif Kobe is arguably a more dangerous individual player.

[Abraham Lincoln]

For such a humorous and massive overemphasis on Bryants individual offensive repirtiore, the fact remaiins that Earvin Johnson was the 2nd biggest mismatch in league history, deadly in the half court player, and would keep the stupid help defenders of today honest. Any hints at a zone and he would pick it apart with the greatest ease any man has ever done anything before.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kobe's impact is bigger than you think, and I agree, not on Magic's level though, but impact translates to the success that impact places it's prints upon, and yes, Magic is the better winner (MVP's, Finals MVP's, Championships) but as individual players of the game...The if you placed the different diminsions in on court aspects these guy's can do, and place them against eachother, it's really close...If you pick one or the other, im cool with that, but to say it's not close from either side is borderline retardness...
What one can do is sh*t. Can do and will do are two differing creedences.

[Jacks3]

You're definitely not comprehending well. Let me dumb this down...Field Goal % (when volume) does not reward a player when you're talking about PER, BUT it DOES effect your PER number....PER takes into account negatives (-) /positives (+). Do you get it now "wee one"?
You're a dumass. PER accurately reflects scoring, fool.




This is what you're doing with Magic and every other player that's not Kobe - stop hanging from his cornhole and think logically. Again, comparing Magic's PER to Kobe's is foolish.

You're dense. I've already acknowledged both Kob'es and Magic's intangibles.




Points are important, but not impactful when you're a mediocre volume scorer/hurting your teams possessions. Overall floor game > Volume Scoring. That's the truth.

And that's not Kobe.


No argument here, but you're in tune agreeing to my point, lol. PER = overrates points, volume or not. It takes fg% which brings down a players PER (depending on how he shot), but sky rockets when the points are up as well. Overall floor game > volume scoring, no doubt kiddo.
[/QUOTE]
*sigh* Kobe's scoring is just one of multiple advanatges. Kobe is also a better all-around player. You act like I'm just saying Kobe>Magic just because of his scoring; I'm not...kiddo.

[Jacks3]

The top perimeter players scoring and free throw attempts have been up psot 2004. Fact.
Total FTA have seen no significant differences. Fact.

[Abraham Lincoln]

errrr do you even know who all was on that 90-91 Laker team?
Not that I disagree with the sentiment, ie that Magic's impact>Kobe's evenif Kobe is arguably a more dangerous individual player.
Beat up injured HIV ridden Earvin Johnson, and they lost the Finals in such fashion due to injuries to Scott/Worthy, not because of this false creedence that Magic was shut down completely.

:cheers:

[shadow]

Beat up injured HIV ridden Earvin Johnson, and they lost the Finals in such fashion due to injuries to Scott/Worthy, not because of this false creedence that Magic was shut down completely.

:cheers:

you got no argument from me there bro. :cheers:

[Jacks3]

Who said that? lol. I never assumed anything. I'm talking pure facts here. They play different positions, so comparing statistical production (especially scoring) is dumb. He ran showtime playing his position, point guard...Not the SG slot, ala Kobe. Those too dense to use volume scoring > all are the one's having trouble comprehending, let alone understanding the concept of team basketball - 5v5 based, not 1v1 matchups kiddo.
So? We're comparing a SG and a PG. Just because they play different positions doesn't mean they could do what the other does if they reversed postions. You're pretty much saying that statistical comparisons btween any 2 players who play different positions is dumb. lol what an idiot.

[branslowski]

What one can do is sh*t. Can do and will do are two differing creedences.

Exactly...One can pass like god....One can score like God.

Each can do a sh!t load of things better than the other can do, and when you add these different abilities up...They are very close as individual players.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Total FTA have seen no significant differences. Fact.

:oldlol: All that matters is FTA compared to FGA. Obviously if FGA are up or down a little on year that will skew things. That's why you have to compare them to FGA each year. That's the only accurate way to see how frequently refs are calling fouls relative to the shots being taken.

But keep desperately trying to twist reality to fit your delusional fanboy mind.

And I saw your rep. :roll: Don't be so bitter, you're not the first kid I've owned on these boards. Once you get older and learn more about the game this won't happen so often. Don't forget that you must fail at first in order to succeed.

[catch24]

You're a dumass. PER accurately reflects scoring, fool.

And you're remedial, I never said otherwise. You said it overrates big man for rebounding, I'm saying it overrates scoring for volume shooters/scorers.



You're dense. I've already acknowledged both Kob'es and Magic's intangibles.

And you did it incorrectly "wee one". It's 5v5 not 1on1 busta.



And that's not Kobe.

Kobe isn't volume? Again, Magi/Kobe prime vs prime - there's no "right answer" per se but how can you refute Bryant being volume? LOL...


*sigh* Kobe's scoring is just one of multiple advanatges. Kobe is also a better all-around player. You act like I'm just saying Kobe>Magic just because of his scoring; I'm not...kiddo.

You're whole argument is based on scoring - did you NOT compare both of their PER's. Since we all know Kobe's a great 1v1 perimeter defender, which isn't calculated with PER, that leaves offense...LOL! You're backpedaling kiddo. The fact remains, volume scoring > high IQ floor game = :no:

[catch24]

So? We're comparing a SG and a PG. Just because they play different positions doesn't mean they could do what the other does if they reversed postions. You're pretty much saying that statistical comparisons btween any 2 players who play different positions is dumb. lol what an idiot.

Once again jacktard aka downy, I never stated or implied this player can do this when you reverse positions. It is. Johnson was never asked to put up high scoring numbers because of his great team, that and he was an exceptional facilitator. Where as a Michael Jordan/Kobe would be asked to do differently. If you watched basketball correctly, you'd understand the point Door knob.

[catch24]

:oldlol: All that matters is FTA compared to FGA. Obviously if FGA are up or down a little on year that will skew things. That's why you have to compare them to FGA each year. That's the only accurate way to see how frequently refs are calling fouls relative to the shots being taken.

But keep desperately trying to twist reality to fit your delusional fanboy mind.

And I saw your rep. :roll: Don't be so bitter, you're not the first kid I've owned on these boards. Once you get older and learn more about the game this won't happen so often. Don't forget that you must fail at first in order to succeed.

Does jacks3 have down syndrome, seriously?

[Jacks3]

[QUOTE=ShaqAttack3234]:oldlol: All that matters is FTA compared to FGA. Obviously if FGA are up or down a little on year that will skew things. That's why you have to compare them to FGA each year. That's the only accurate way to see how frequently refs are calling fouls relative to the shots being taken.

But keep desperately trying to twist reality to fit your delusional fanboy mind.
All that matters is FTA, you piece of ****.


And I saw your rep.
What are you talking about??
:roll:
Don't be so bitter, you're not the first kid I've owned on these boards. Once you get older and learn more about the game this won't happen so often. Don't forget that you must fail at first in order to succeed.
You're crazy. You haven't ''owned'' anyone. :oldlol: at this moron.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Does jacks3 have down syndrome, seriously?
He's KINGD.

No explanation needed:

www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81507

[ShaqAttack3234]

All that matters is FTA, you piece of ****.

FGA are different each year you dumb pile of shit. That's why you have to compare the number of FTA to the number of FGA each season to see a trend as far as fouls. God damnitt, you're a ****ing retard.


You're crazy. You haven't ''owned'' anyone. :oldlol: at this moron.

Yes I did, there's no other explanation for your pathetic total FTA garbage.

[Jacks3]

And you're remedial, I never said otherwise. You said it overrates big man for rebounding, I'm saying it overrates scoring for volume shooters/scorers.
That's the point you moron. It benefits both by overrating both things that are advantages for them. But efficient volume scoring> rebounding.




And you did it incorrectly "wee one". It's 5v5 not 1on1 busta.

:oldlol: at this clown.



Kobe isn't volume? Again, Magi/Kobe prime vs prime - there's no "right answer" per se but how can you refute Bryant being volume? LOL...
And Kobe's efficient volume scoring is an advantage in this comparison.




You're whole argument is based on scoring - did you NOT compare both of their PER's. Since we all know Kobe's a great 1v1 perimeter defender, which isn't calculated with PER, that leaves offense...LOL! You're backpedaling kiddo. The fact remains, volume scoring > high IQ floor game = :no:
No, it's not just based on scoring. That's just one advantage. Kobe is the better shooter, far better man and help defender etc. Kobe>Magic.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Exactly...One can pass like god....One can score like God.

Each can do a sh!t load of things better than the other can do, and when you add these different abilities up...They are very close as individual players.
The wise man would assume that impact and overall game in a 5 on 5 setting means more than skill level. However, one's differing creedence shan't be all merciful tonight.
:cheers:

[branslowski]

Jacks...Do you ever accept a lose and move on?...

I remember last month when Don was woopin on that ass, but you just kept coming back with garbage after garbage....Then you called me a Jordan Homer..:roll:

Jacks= GOAT..."Never give up, never surrender".

[Jacks3]

Once again jacktard aka downy, I never stated or implied this player can do this when you reverse positions. It is. Johnson was never asked to put up high scoring numbers because of his great team, that and he was an exceptional facilitator. Where as a Michael Jordan/Kobe would be asked to do differently. If you watched basketball correctly, you'd understand the point Door knob.
And Kobe/Michael were never asked to pass like Magic. I guess we can just assume they'd be able to do it, right? You're a ****ing retard. Just because Magic wasn't asked to score like those guys doesn't negate the huge advantage as scorers they have over him.

[Jacks3]

Jacks...Do you ever accept a lose and move on?...

.
STFU, *****.:oldlol:

[Heilige]

STFU, *****.:oldlol:



:roll: :roll:

[Jacks3]

FGA are different each year you dumb pile of shit. That's why you have to compare the number of FTA to the number of FGA each season to see a trend as far as fouls. God damnitt, you're a ****ing retard.

You're a ****ing stupid dumass. FTA attempts have shown no signifcant differences yearly, moron.


Yes I did, there's no other explanation for your pathetic total FTA garbage.
Keep telling yourself that.:roll:

[Jacks3]

He's KINGD.

No explanation needed:


You act like a dead president on a ****ing message board. You're ****ing retarded.

[ShaqAttack3234]

You're a ****ing stupid dumass. FTA attempts have shown no signifcant differences yearly, moron.


Keep telling yourself that.:roll:

Please explain why FTA to FGA rose AFTER the rule changes. Just explain that, don't answer anything else. Explain why the average team was attempting more FTA relative to their FGA? Just explain that...you can't.

I'll give you credit, you can take a beating, too bad that doesn't mean you can hit back. :roll:

[catch24]

That's the point you moron. It benefits both by overrating both things that are advantages for them. But efficient volume scoring> rebounding

Only in your warped little mind nerd. The point is, Overall game with high efficiency/productivity > Less production volume scoring. Point blank. You're done Jackie.


And Kobe's efficient volume scoring is an advantage in this comparison.

Wrong, it's and advantage when it comes to PER. So Mcgrady > Kobe and Magic, peak wise? You say statistically but then you talk about intangibles outside of stats. Which one is it? Moron. Cut the act stan.


No, it's not just based on scoring. That's just one advantage. Kobe is the better shooter, far better man and help defender etc. Kobe>Magic.

The argument has to do with PER. Picking Kobe or Magic prime vs prime = no real wrong answer, I've already stated this. What's incorrect is you cross comparing positions, especially with PER...LOW IQ piece of trash.

[catch24]

And Kobe/Michael were never asked to pass like Magic. I guess we can just assume they'd be able to do it, right? You're a ****ing retard. Just because Magic wasn't asked to score like those guys doesn't negate the huge advantage as scorers they have over him.

Which proves my point, cross comparing is a total joke. You go by impact and who made their teams better, along with winning, etc. Statistical production is important - to go with efficiency, but again, it's just a piece of the "big picture", numb nuts.

Wow, you're really up Kobe's arse.

[catch24]

Please explain why FTA to FGA rose AFTER the rule changes. Just explain that, don't answer anything else. Explain why the average team was attempting more FTA relative to their FGA? Just explain that...you can't.

I'll give you credit, you can take a beating, too bad that doesn't mean you can hit back. :roll:

LOL

[juju151111]

FGA are different each year you dumb pile of shit. That's why you have to compare the number of FTA to the number of FGA each season to see a trend as far as fouls. God damnitt, you're a ****ing retard.



Yes I did, there's no other explanation for your pathetic total FTA garbage.
Seriously Jack you understand wat shaqattack is saying right?? Did you ever take a math class??? I think he is just playing dumb now because he can't be serious at this point.:wtf:

[Abraham Lincoln]

You act like a dead president on a ****ing message board. You're ****ing retarded.
You = KINGD
Me = The Wise Man

:banana:

[catch24]

Just because Magic wasn't asked to score like those guys doesn't negate the huge advantage as scorers they have over him.

This totally proves my point - different roles = meaningless to compare, watch the games. I know I've already quoted this post but what the hell? lol. I'm done, handle the light weight "Big Diesel". :pimp:

[magnax1]

I'd rather have Magic on my team just because I'd always take a good passer before any other type of player, but Kobe isn't necesarily much worse. Hes a way better scorer, and better defender by a large margin, but every thing else Magic wins. So Magic>Kobe but not by a huge margin.

[KAJ=GOAT]

you should be strung up and crucified for that mess. magic johnson revolutionized basketball and became a leader on a team that already had 2 other guys that could have been household names if they would have been on other teams, but together MJ made them and the laker franchise better (talking about james and kareem btw). i love stockton, but seriously. magics name should never be mentioned in the same sentence as steve as much as i enjoy watching steve play and i honestly think he's a top ten of all time PG (thats for another thread). magic isn't just one of the greatest pg's hes one of the greatest players of all time. if you wanna argue against magic all im gonna do is post this link...because i dunno when the HELL the last time a friggin ROOKIE subbed in a position not his own (for a GOAT C btw) and put up 42 points/15 boards/7 assists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_NBA_Finals


oh and to answer the question. magic johnson >kobe bryant. i love both players but in the little time magic played he amassed to much and did so much for the franchise and the sport.


Magic made Kareem?


try it the other way around guy.

"yes, you're still a dummy"

:hammertime:

[KAJ=GOAT]

For such a humorous and massive overemphasis on Bryants individual offensive repirtiore, the fact remaiins that Earvin Johnson was the 2nd biggest mismatch in league history, deadly in the half court player, and would keep the stupid help defenders of today honest. Any hints at a zone and he would pick it apart with the greatest ease any man has ever done anything before.
With Kareem at center, Worthy at forward and Byron on the wing,

not all that hard to do when you think about it.

But, what does Magic do with Smush, Kwame and Luke Walton?

"we going to sizzler, we going to sizzler"

:hammertime:

[purple32gold]

Magic made Kareem?


try it the other way around guy.

"yes, you're still a dummy"

:hammertime:
didn't mean it that way at all, but you can take what you want from it i guess.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Kobe is taken for granted specifically on this forum, to the point where I just ignore debates that involve Kobe.

Or maybe people put him where he SHOULD be. A great player who doesn't deserve to be mentioned with those better than him. It seems simple but Kobe guys make it sooo hard. As for taking him for granted, maybe you've missed all the fanatics who overhype everything he does??

In terms of skill set I wouldn't even necessarily say there is a player past or present that is clear cut better then Kobe.

The nebulous "skills" argument which is meaningless. "Skills" doesn't matter, only IMPACT. You could say Chris Paul is more "skilled" than a prime Shaq. Who are you taking on your team? Kobe Guys always use the skills argument as if it really means anything.

I just notice every time Kobe is compared to a Jordan, Bird, Magic and so on; some people think it's an insult to those legends.

That's because it is.

Kobe is 30 years old, he played 8 years behind a certain dominant center and he still accomplished so much in his career that it is almost comparable to those legends.

Three second fiddle titles, 1 title as the man, one MVP, one Finals MVP is not comparable to Bird, Magic, Jordan et al. And you can't have it both ways. You can't praise him for winning 3 titles, then complain that he played behind a dominant center because he wouldn't HAVE those titles were it not for that center. Can't have it both ways.

Of course he still has a solid 4-5 years left as a leader of his own team but I just find it funny how people neglect him from being mentioned in the same breathe as those legends.

Maybe they don't think he's EARNED it? Nah, couldn't be. They just like hating on poor old Kobe.


I watched them all and I see almost a replica of dominance between Kobe and those guys. It was a much different game back in the day, a lot faster and with offense being the main objective of any team. Teams back then scored 110 points almost every game, out of all the game winners that Bird or Magic or Jordan hit have you ever seen 3-4 defenders storming them the way they do Kobe? Just think about that for a second.

This post here shows that you're just a hopeless Kobe Homer and should be dismissed. This bullshyt "Kobe has it so tough" argument that's been shot down a hundred times and that ONLY Kobe Guys use. It's garbage.

I don't think Kobe is better then Magic (yet), but he could pass him when his jersey is retired. He still has a lot left in him and a lot more accolades to accomplish, skill wise Kobe is just as good as any player past or present, IMO.

Again with the "skills" thing.

His decision making (intangibles) is why some fans (rightfully so) do not think Kobe should be considered as good as some of those legends. It's weird that Kobe displays such poor decision making on occasions when we all know he is one of the more intelligent players to EVER play this game.

If he's so intelligent, why is his decision making so poor at times? Either he's not as intelligent as you think or he has this narcissistic urge to do things his way, even if it directly contradicts what he should do.

Thanks for killing that guy's(Story Up) post. :cheers: It's clear he has no idea what the hell he's taking about, just like all the other Kobe fans.

He must have serious mental problems if he honestly believes that what Kobe does on the court is a replica of what Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc used to do. Kobe is just barely doing what those other guys have done multiple times. That's lead a team to the Finals as the unquestioned best player on the team, while winning it all as well as a Finals MVP. I don't give a sh*t about regular season accomplishments. That all gets flushed down the drain come playoff time. And Kobe has had far more postseason failures than those guys. It's also a bit of a contradiction to say Kobe is one of the most intelligent players to ever play, and then say his decision making is very poor. That's one of the things that holds Kobe back from being mentioned with those legends. As a person, he comes across as being a fairly intelligent guy, but as a basketball player, his IQ is very low. He has always been a poor decision maker on the court.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Not this PER garbage again. And I don't care about pace, 2004-2005 has been an incredibly soft era defensively. The 80's was a much better era overall. It's considered by many to be the golden era of basketball.

Kobe never had seasons this good, much less on great teams.

1982- 18.6 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.7 spg, 53.7 FG%, 38.3 mpg, 57 wins
1984- 17.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 13.1 apg, 2.2 spg, 56.5 FG%, 80 FT%, 38.3 mpg, 54 wins
1987- 23.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 12.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 52.2 FG%, 84.8 FT%, 36.3 mpg, 65 wins
1989- 22.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 12.8 apg, 1.8 spg, 50.9 FG%, 91.1 FT%, 37.5 mpg, 57 wins
1990- 22.3 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 11.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 48 FG%, 38.4 3P%, 89 FT%, 37.2 mpg, 63 wins
1991- 19.4 ppg, 7 rpg, 12.5 apg, 47.7 FG%, 90.6 FT%, 37.1 mpg, 58 wins

:oldlol: ShaqAttack has become one of my favorite posters on this site. He's constantly owning these kids who have no real knowledge of basketball. :cheers:

[Jacks3]

[/QUOTE=catch24]Only in your warped little mind nerd. The point is, Overall game with high efficiency/productivity > Less production volume scoring. Point blank. You're done Jackie.
[/QUOTE]
And when did I say otherwise? Wow. You don't even get my point, dumass.


Wrong, it's and advantage when it comes to PER. So Mcgrady > Kobe and Magic, peak wise? You say statistically but then you talk about intangibles outside of stats. Which one is it? Moron. Cut the act stan.


It's a combo of EVERYTHING, dumass.

The argument has to do with PER. Picking Kobe or Magic prime vs prime = no real wrong answer, I've already stated this. What's incorrect is you cross comparing positions, especially with PER...LOW IQ piece of trash.
LMAO. You're ****ing retarded. The comparison involves Magic and Kobe. Of course we're comparing positions. PER is just a part of the picture...you stupid piece of ****.

[Jacks3]

This totally proves my point - different roles = meaningless to compare, watch the games. I know I've already quoted this post but what the hell? lol. I'm done, handle the light weight "Big Diesel". :pimp:
So, guys who play different roles can never be compared? LMAO. You're ****ing stupid.

[Jacks3]

Please explain why FTA to FGA rose AFTER the rule changes. Just explain that, don't answer anything else. Explain why the average team was attempting more FTA relative to their FGA? Just explain that...you can't.

I'll give you credit, you can take a beating, too bad that doesn't mean you can hit back. :roll:
Explain to me why we didn't see even close to meaningful increases in FTA? You can't. Now STFU, you sad piece of garbage.

[Jacks3]

to go with efficiency, but again, it's just a piece of the "big picture", numb nuts.


Exactly. That's why my argument wasn't just centered around PER. Learn to read, *****.

[Jacks3]

You = KINGD
Me = The Wise Man

:banana:
You= grown ass man imitating a dead guy on a basketball forum.:roll:

[catch24]

So, guys who play different roles can never be compared? LMAO. You're ****ing stupid.



Exactly. That's why my argument wasn't just centered around PER. Learn to read, *****.

Uh, no..lmfao :oldlol: . You gave Kobe's PER and thus it began. Amusing us with your clown skills. Again, comparing PER with two different players with two completely DIFFERENT roles is idiotic (like your logic). Unfortunately this will be my last post in this now sh!t thread you've ruined. Have fun forgetting to pay your brain bill.

[Jacks3]

Uh, no..lmfao :oldlol: . You gave Kobe's PER and thus it began. Amusing us with your clown skills. Again, comparing PER with two different players with two completely DIFFERENT roles is idiotic (like your logic). Unfortunately this will be my last post in this now sh!t thread you've ruined. Have fun forgetting to pay your brain bill.
Yeah, I gave Kobe's PER as part of my argument. It's not idiotic at all. It
's simply box-score production. Now GTFO, *****.

[godofgods]

Kobe - rings - mvp = Jerry Stackhouse

Come on don't insult Stackhouse like that. Kobe isn't half as tough as Stackhouse is.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Explain to me why we didn't see even close to meaningful increases in FTA? You can't. Now STFU, you sad piece of garbage.

Taken from the other thread...

Because total FGA changes EVERY season you dumb ****. That's why the ONLY way to judge how much officiating changes is to judge it relative to the number of shots taken that year. Seriously, how ****ing stupid are you?

Once again, look at the average team before the rule changes and after the rule changes.

2000-2001 94.8 ppg, 44.3 FG%, 3.24 FGA to FTA ratio
2001-2002 95.5 ppg, 45.5 FG%, 3.41 FGA to FTA ratio
2002-2003 95.1 ppg, 44.2 FG%, 3.31 FGA to FTA ratio
2003-2004 93.4 ppg, 43.9 FG%, 3.30 FGA to FTA ratio

2004-2005 97.2 ppg, 44.7 FG%, 3.08 FGA to FTA ratio
2005-2006 97.5 ppg, 45.4 FG%, 3.00 FGA to FTA ratio
2006-2007 98.7 ppg, 45.8 FG%, 3.06 FGA to FTA ratio

And that includes big men who weren't impacted so much by the no handchecking rules. I'd bet the difference is even bigger for perimeter players.

That IS a significant difference. There's no way you can twist that you dumb piece of shit. I've named a flaw with your pathetic total FTA garbage, now explain one with FGAto FTA ratio. Not only that, but scoring went noticeably up after the rule changes. It's not like I used one season either. I used several to prove that it wasn't a fluke.

You have NOTHING, not shut the **** up. Just crawl away at this point, save yourself whatever dignity you have left.

[Knoe Itawl]

ShaqAttack, I know it's hard sometimes but you should NEVER argue with a POS like Jacks. He doesn't care about facts, he doesn't care about reality. In fact, I doubt he even believes most of what he says. he has ONE agenda and one agenda only. To suck Kobe Bryant's d!kk as often as possible here on this board. So banging your head into a wall would be more productive than trying to get through to an idiot like that. Just ignore him, or make fun of him. Same goes for someone like Fatal.

There ARE reasonable Kobe fans that post here (a few) that you can actually have productive discussions with. These clowns aren't two of them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

ShaqAttack, I know it's hard sometimes but you should NEVER argue with a POS like Jacks. He doesn't care about facts, he doesn't care about reality. In fact, I doubt he even believes most of what he says. he has ONE agenda and one agenda only. To suck Kobe Bryant's d!kk as often as possible here on this board. So banging your head into a wall would be more productive than trying to get through to an idiot like that. Just ignore him, or make fun of him. Same goes for someone like Fatal.

There ARE reasonable Kobe fans that post here (a few) that you can actually have productive discussions with. These clowns aren't two of them.

Yeah, you're right, but sometimes it's just too tempting to correct idiots. By the way, it's cool to see an Iron Maiden avatar. :rockon:

[Lebron23]

Yeah, you're right, but sometimes it's just too tempting to correct idiots. By the way, it's cool to see an Iron Maiden avatar. :rockon:


Stop debating with a Kobe troll.

Kobe Bryant might be the superior scorer, and better defender than Magic Johnson, but I still take Magic because when he was the franchise player of the Lakers his team never missed the playoffs.

[BallersTalk]

:oldlol: at anyone who thinks this is a landslide btw. It's actually a really close comparison, so close that I couldn't decide who I'd take without looking at what the team needs. I like Magic but dude is clearly remembered to be better than he actually was if people think he is this untouchable.
He's not untouchable. Just untouchable for Kobe.

[CB4GOATPF]

When you have 1 more Star on Your Team Your PER Rises but When You Have a Team like Magic had with 3-4 Stars it will decrease it.

Just put Magic with Gasol, Odom, Bynum and those 3 would be All Stars and certainly would have not lost vs the Celtics in 2008. Magic had Great Shot Selection and would know how to exploit the qualities of versatily SF-PF Odom as a finisher, the Modern Kevin McHale (with a superior Passing and Game Creating Game) in Gasol and would make it easier for Bynum in the Paint

He Makes Others Better and Teams Better from the Game Creating Way and Missmatch Way.... Way More than Kobe

Total Absolute Missmatch for any PG Ever:
A Rebounder in the level of SFs and PFs
Clutch
Best Fast Break Runner Ever
Among the Best Desicion Makers
Great Shot Selection
Hard to Stop Taking to the Basket

With Kobe

One of the Greatest Pure Shooters Ever
One of the Clutchest Ever
Great 1 on 1 Scorer Off the Dribble (past 30 it won`t be the same)
Solid Alll Around Game

I`d go with an 85-90 Magic over any Kobe...

[Jacks3]

Taken from the other thread...

Because total FGA changes EVERY season you dumb ****. That's why the ONLY way to judge how much officiating changes is to judge it relative to the number of shots taken that year. Seriously, how ****ing stupid are you?

Once again, look at the average team before the rule changes and after the rule changes.

2000-2001 94.8 ppg, 44.3 FG%, 3.24 FGA to FTA ratio
2001-2002 95.5 ppg, 45.5 FG%, 3.41 FGA to FTA ratio
2002-2003 95.1 ppg, 44.2 FG%, 3.31 FGA to FTA ratio
2003-2004 93.4 ppg, 43.9 FG%, 3.30 FGA to FTA ratio

2004-2005 97.2 ppg, 44.7 FG%, 3.08 FGA to FTA ratio
2005-2006 97.5 ppg, 45.4 FG%, 3.00 FGA to FTA ratio
2006-2007 98.7 ppg, 45.8 FG%, 3.06 FGA to FTA ratio

And that includes big men who weren't impacted so much by the no handchecking rules. I'd bet the difference is even bigger for perimeter players.

That IS a significant difference. There's no way you can twist that you dumb piece of shit. I've named a flaw with your pathetic total FTA garbage, now explain one with FGAto FTA ratio. Not only that, but scoring went noticeably up after the rule changes. It's not like I used one season either. I used several to prove that it wasn't a fluke.

You have NOTHING, not shut the **** up. Just crawl away at this point, save yourself whatever dignity you have left.
You haven't shown anything. The FGA or FTA has seen no significant differences *****.

[Jacks3]

ShaqAttack, I know it's hard sometimes but you should NEVER argue with a POS like Jacks. He doesn't care about facts, he doesn't care about reality. In fact, I doubt he even believes most of what he says. he has ONE agenda and one agenda only. To suck Kobe Bryant's d!kk as often as possible here on this board. So banging your head into a wall would be more productive than trying to get through to an idiot like that. Just ignore him, or make fun of him. Same goes for someone like Fatal.

There ARE reasonable Kobe fans that post here (a few) that you can actually have productive discussions with. These clowns aren't two of them.

This is the same clown who's literally does nothing but post hate on and post about Kobe. :oldlol: at this ***** having the nerve to call somebody else out on a agenda. Stupid piece of **** hypocrite. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

You haven't shown anything. The FGA or FTA has seen no significant differences *****.

I already explained why that's ridiculously flawed. Now it's your turn, explain why using FGA to FTA ratios is flawed. You can't because it's not flawed. Showing FTA relative to FGA is accurate and you know it.

[Jacks3]

I already explained why that's ridiculously flawed. Now it's your turn, explain why using FGA to FTA ratios is flawed. You can't because it's not flawed. Showing FTA relative to FGA is accurate and you know it.
No, it's not and you know it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, it's not and you know it.

:roll: :oldlol: :roll:

[Jacks3]

:roll: :oldlol: :roll:
:oldlol: at this moron.

[KAJ=GOAT]

We've seen Kobe take a team and helped build it from the ground up,

Magic always played with Hall of Famers from the jump on a team that was already playoff bound.

When did Magic take players of the caliber of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown to the playoffs and wasn't expected to?


Kobes only one ring short of tying Magic, but for some reason, if he wins another and I fully expect him to,

it still won't be enough to even put him on the level of Magic,

even though they've had similar success in terms of winning.



"nah, you don't want it"
:hammertime:

[OldSchoolBBall]

We've seen Kobe take a team and do nothing and then cry and pout until he was handed a 20/10 all-star PF for peanuts.

Fixed.

[Fatal9]

Fixed.
:oldlol: at the hate.

[OldSchoolBBall]

:oldlol: at the hate.

:oldlol: At the irony.

[purple32gold]

Fixed.
so what do you call what d-wade is doing now? basically the same thing...they want the best for the franchise to put themselves in the best position for another title. trust me if you had to play on a team filled with the smush's and kwame's of the world you would be "pouting & crying" a hell of a lot too.

[OldSchoolBBall]

so what do you call what d-wade is doing now? basically the same thing...they want the best for the franchise to put themselves in the best position for another title. trust me if you had to play on a team filled with the smush's and kwame's of the world you would be "pouting & crying" a hell of a lot too.

I don't recall Wade throwing his teammates under a bus and going on the radio and whining like a ***** that he wants out.

[BallersTalk]

so what do you call what d-wade is doing now? basically the same thing...they want the best for the franchise to put themselves in the best position for another title. trust me if you had to play on a team filled with the smush's and kwame's of the world you would be "pouting & crying" a hell of a lot too.
That's the team Kobe wanted. He didn't want to win on a team where he wasn't "the man". For Kobe, being "the man" > winning.

[branslowski]

I don't recall Wade throwing his teammates under a bus and going on the radio and whining like a ***** that he wants out.

Wasn't Jordan talkin sh!t about his garbage mates early on in his career?...Or forget that, he can just punch them in the face, and have 1 teamate threaten to break his legs....But I agree, Kobe's the Teamate Monster here..:rolleyes:

[BallersTalk]

Wasn't Jordan talkin sh!t about his garbage mates early on in his career?...Or forget that, he can just punch them in the face, and have 1 teamate threaten to break his legs....But I agree, Kobe's the Teamate Monster here..:rolleyes:
Jordan never asked for anyone to be traded. And he never had it put on camera. So, pics/video or it didn't happen.

[branslowski]

Jordan never asked for anyone to be traded. And he never had it put on camera. So, pics/video or it didn't happen.

Your right, Jordan never asked anyone to be traded. But he did scoff at management for taking Pippen over Joe Wolf in the draft....Still, not really a big deal.

But (AGENDAS ASIDE) are we really saying that Kobe saying..."Ship his ass out" is more worst than MJ punching a teamate in the eye and getting on another teamates nerves so bad that the teamate threaten to break his legs?

Again, I really dont care alot about these things but when I see a Jordan fan (Loki) b!tching about something with Kobe and teamates, the irony of this makes me laugh.

[BallersTalk]

Your right, Jordan never asked anyone to be traded. But he did scoff at management for taking Pippen over Joe Wolf in the draft....Still, not really a big deal.

But (AGENDAS ASIDE) are we really saying that Kobe saying..."Ship his ass out" is more worst than MJ punching a teamate in the eye and getting on another teamates nerves so bad that the teamate threaten to break his legs?

Again, I really dont care alot about these things but when I see a Jordan fan (Loki) b!tching about something with Kobe and teamates, the irony of this makes me laugh.
You're just taking everything out of context and going by what others said.

When did Jordan scoff at management for taking Joe Wolf? The article said that he wanted management to take Wolf. So what? Jordan was never a good judge of talent. But he never had anyone traded. IN FACT, during the championship years, Jordan pressured management to do whatever it took to keep Pippen on the team. That's a fact. Opposite of what Kobe did. Kobe did whatever it took to get Shaq off the team cause he was so concerned about being "the man". Agendas aside my a$$. You always have an agenda. And it always has to do with Kobe. You're probably not even from LA. Makes you even more pathetic.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Wasn't Jordan talkin sh!t about his garbage mates early on in his career?...Or forget that, he can just punch them in the face, and have 1 teamate threaten to break his legs....But I agree, Kobe's the Teamate Monster here..:rolleyes:

Jordan never talked **** about his teammates in the media. He did it in private. That's the difference. He also never publicly threatened to leave after a few years of mediocrity.

[branslowski]

You're just taking everything out of context and going by what others said.

When did Jordan scoff at management for taking Joe Wolf? The article said that he wanted management to take Wolf. So what? Jordan was never a good judge of talent. But he never had anyone traded. IN FACT, during the championship years, Jordan pressured management to do whatever it took to keep Pippen on the team. That's a fact. Opposite of what Kobe did. Kobe did whatever it took to get Shaq off the team cause he was so concerned about being "the man". Agendas aside my a$$. You always have an agenda. And it always has to do with Kobe. You're probably not even from LA. Makes you even more pathetic.

:oldlol: Again dick F*ck...I said Jordan didn't ask for trades you f*cking idiot....I said whats worst between saying "Ship his ass out" and punching a mate in the eye and having another teamate threaten you....I see your Agenda against Kobe made you slide away from that question...:oldlol:

[KAJ=GOAT]

You're just taking everything out of context and going by what others said.

When did Jordan scoff at management for taking Joe Wolf? The article said that he wanted management to take Wolf. So what? Jordan was never a good judge of talent. But he never had anyone traded. IN FACT, during the championship years, Jordan pressured management to do whatever it took to keep Pippen on the team. That's a fact. Opposite of what Kobe did. Kobe did whatever it took to get Shaq off the team cause he was so concerned about being "the man". Agendas aside my a$$. You always have an agenda. And it always has to do with Kobe. You're probably not even from LA. Makes you even more pathetic.

"the big dog don't get fed, the big dog don't guard the house"
"I get hurt on company time, I'll heal on company time"
"PAY ME".


How did Kobe have anything to do with that?



Jordan never talked **** about his teammates in the media. He did it in private. That's the difference. He also never publicly threatened to leave after a few years of mediocrity.

He just quit when the franchise didn't give him the players he wanted.

Twice.

[branslowski]

Jordan never talked **** about his teammates in the media. He did it in private. That's the difference. He also never publicly threatened to leave after a few years of mediocrity.

OK, I agree with that...Kobe should have done it in private...That was wrong of Kobe to want Bynum out of LA...But again, I still laugh when Jordan fans talk about Kobe not being a great teamate...As if their guy was spot clean.

Anyway, arguing this old sh!t is garbage...Kobe is a Champion...Jordan in the HOF and had GOAT speech...This is the Right now...Cuddos..:cheers:

[Heilige]

Jordan never talked **** about his teammates in the media. He did it in private. That's the difference. He also never publicly threatened to leave after a few years of mediocrity.



Talking **** is talking **** private it or not. The difference is minute regarding that situation.


And if Jordan was surrounded with mediocrity when he was in his late 20s, and it didn't look as if he were going to get better teammates the situation might have been different.

[branslowski]

"the big dog don't get fed, the big dog don't guard the house"
"I get hurt on company time, I'll heal on company time"
"PAY ME".


How did Kobe have anything to do with that?



He just quit when the franchise didn't give him the players he wanted.

Twice.

Is that a Jordan quote or a rap lyric?...Link please...:confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

He just quit when the franchise didn't give him the players he wanted.

Twice.

His first retirement had nothing to do with personnel at all. Not sure where you get that from. His second retirement was a bit about that because he didn't want to have to start over at age 35 with a new core and coach, especially after winning yet ANOTHER championship. That's a bit more understandable than pouting and threatening to leave at age 27.

[TryToBeUnbias]

Is that a Jordan quote or a rap lyric?...Link please...:confusedshrug:
thats a shaq qoute

[OldSchoolBBall]

Talking **** is talking **** private it or not. The difference is minute regarding that situation.

No it isn't. There's a huge difference between talking **** about your teammates to their faces in private and going public with it. You must have zero sense of decorum and propriety if you think the two are in any way equivalent.

[branslowski]

thats a shaq qoute

Oh...:oldlol:

Brain freeze.

[branslowski]

To sm everything up....My point is, both Kobe and Jordan had some WOAT sh!tty Teamate moments...So neither side should be talkin sh!t about the other guy and teamates...

Asking for guy's to be traded in public=WOAT

Punching teamates in the eye and having a teamate threaten you=WOAT.

And Neither side better not come up with excuses for these actions...

[Heilige]

To sm everything up....My point is, both Kobe and Jordan had some WOAT sh!tty Teamate moments...So neither side should be talkin sh!t about the other guy and teamates...

Asking for guy's to be traded in public=WOAT

Punching teamates in the eye and having a teamate threaten you=WOAT.

And Neither side better not come up with excuses for these actions...


Kerr threw a punch first.

[branslowski]

Kerr threw a punch first.

Then why did Phil throw Jordan out of practice instead of Kerr?

Also, Actually, MJ got upset that Phil was giving Kerr all of the plays, so he started to commit hard fouls on Kerr, this led to Kerr commiting hard fouls back, which led to Jordan getting pissed and throwing a Roy Jones special to Kerr's eye...:oldlol:

All in all...Jordan's competetive Nature= FEAR....But there's no excuse for that.

[CB4GOATPF]

We've seen Kobe take a team and helped build it from the ground up,

Take a Team? More like Shaq took the Team earlier and then more like Phil made the Lakers Team for Kobe bringing Gasol (Top 10 Active PER Player).

Magic always played with Hall of Famers from the jump on a team that was already playoff bound.

When did Magic take players of the caliber of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown to the playoffs and wasn't expected to?

But he also faced HOF Level Stacked Up Way Superior Teams and Competition that Kobe could only dream of:

Celtics: Bird, McHale, Parish, Cornbread, DJ, Ainge, Walton, Archibald
Sixers: Dr J, Moses, Toney, Cheeks, Bobby Jones
Pistons: Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Salley, Rodman, Dantley, Aguirre

etc

Kobes only one ring short of tying Magic, but for some reason, if he wins another and I fully expect him to,

it still won't be enough to even put him on the level of Magic,

even though they've had similar success in terms of winning.

Magic was a Better Player than Kobe in his Title Runs than Kobe. Way More Dominant

As a Rookie he was Thee Man in The 6th Game against the Sixers in 1980 Playing SF-PF-C 45 pts, 15 rebounds, 7 assits at age 20 in a Finals Game without Kareem.

He won 5 Titles and Wen`t to the Finals 8 Times in THEE GREATEST MOST COMPETITIVE TIME IN NBA HISTORY

Magic took Vlade, Worthy, Perkins (Really Good Players) to a Finals against the Bulls in 91. If Worthy wasn`t injured who knows what would have happened

but Kobe has GASOL: A Better Player than Worthy ever has, Odom a Better Defender and All Around Player than Any Of These mentioned before not named Magic and a 7`2 prescence Shot Blocking and Rebounding Presence in the Paint: A Big 3

Who did they face? The Best Defender in the Game with no Post Game Howard and "prefer money tha honor" Turk (thats about it)

Kobe is lucky Yao got hurt and Garnett got hurt...Very Lucky ..you Kobe Maniacs seem to forget...

Kobe is the Luckiest NBA Player Ever for many reasons...He Faced Weak Competition compared to Magic`s Lakers and preformed way less and Kobe will Never Be The Whole Court Missmatch, Leader and All Around Player Magic Was.

Kobe is infact a Bad Leader...Sits away from his Teamates when things go bad and has Daddy Phil covering all his tandrums.

His character at age 31 is that of a rookie!

:violin:

[catch24]

We've seen Kobe take a team and helped build it from the ground up,

Take a Team? More like Shaq took the Team earlier and then more like Phil made the Lakes Team for Kobe bringing Gasol (Top 10 Active PER Player).

Magic always played with Hall of Famers from the jump on a team that was already playoff bound.

When did Magic take players of the caliber of Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Chris Mihm and Kwame Brown to the playoffs and wasn't expected to?

But he also faced HOF Level Stacked Up Way Superior Teams and Competition that Kobe could only dream of:

Celtics: Bird, McHale, Parish, Cornbread, DJ, Ainge, Walton, Archibald
Sixers: Dr J, Moses, Toney, Cheeks, Bobby Jones
Pistons: Isiah, Dumars, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Salley, Rodman, Dantley, Aguirre

etc

Kobes only one ring short of tying Magic, but for some reason, if he wins another and I fully expect him to,

it still won't be enough to even put him on the level of Magic,

even though they've had similar success in terms of winning.

Magic was a Better Player than Kobe in his Title Runs than Kobe. Way More Dominant

As a Rookie he was Thee Man in The 6th Game against the Sixers in 1989 Playing SF-PF-C 45 pts, 15 rebounds, 7 assits at age 20 in a Finals Game without Kareem.

He won 5 Titles and Wen`t to the Finals 8 Times in THEE GREATEST MOST COMPETITIVE TIME IN NBA HISTORY

Magic took Vlade, Worthy, Perkins (Really Good Players) to a Finals against the Bulls in 91. If Worthy wasn`t injured who knows what would have happened

but Kobe has GASOL: A Better Player than Worthy ever has, Odom a Better Defender and All Around Player than Any Of These mentioned before not named Magic and a 7`2 prescence Shot Blocking and Rebounding Presence in the Paint: A Big 3

Who did they face? The Best Defender in the Game with no Post Game Howard and "prefer money tha honor" Turk (thats about it)

Kobe is lucky Yao got hurt and Garnett got hurt...Very Lucky ..you Kobe Maniacs seem to forget...

Kobe is the Luckiest NBA Player Ever for many reasons...He Faced Weak Competition compared to Magic`s Lakers and preformed way less and Kobe will Never Be The Whole Court Missmatch, Leader and All Around Player Magic Was.

Kobe is infact a Bad Leader...Sits away from his Teamates when things go bad and has Daddy Phil covering all his tandrums.

His character at age 31 is that of a rookie!

:violin:

........

[branslowski]

but Kobe has GASOL: A Better Player than Worthy ever has, Odom a Better Defender and All Around Player than Any Of These mentioned before not named Magic and a 7`2 prescence Shot Blocking and Rebounding Presence in the Paint: A Big 3

Who did they face? The Best Defender in the Game with no Post Game Howard and "prefer money tha honor" Turk (thats about it)

Kobe is lucky Yao got hurt and Garnett got hurt...Very Lucky ..you Kobe Maniacs seem to forget...

Kobe is the Luckiest NBA Player Ever for many reasons...He Faced Weak Competition compared to Magic`s Lakers and preformed way less and Kobe will Never Be The Whole Court Missmatch, Leader and All Around Player Magic Was.

Kobe is infact a Bad Leader...Sits away from his Teamates when things go bad and has Daddy Phil covering all his tandrums.

His character at age 31 is that of a rookie![/B]

:violin:

Was this a sarcastic Post?....Because if you really beleive what you just said, then i'll send you my Visa card so you can rent a short yellow bus for the week...:ohwell:

[Heilige]

Was this a sarcastic Post?....Because if you really beleive what you just said, then i'll send you my Visa card so you can rent a yellow bus for the week...:ohwell:



:roll:

[catch24]

Was this a sarcastic Post?....Because if you really beleive what you just said, then i'll send you my Visa card so you can rent a yellow bus for the week...:ohwell:

short yellow bus *

[branslowski]

short yellow bus *

:D Fixed...

[Fatal9]

Jordan never talked **** about his teammates in the media. He did it in private. That's the difference. He also never publicly threatened to leave after a few years of mediocrity.
Kobe didn't know he was being videotaped. Like Jordan had to worry about camera phones recording private conversations in 1988...:rolleyes:

Jordan and Kobe's situations weren't even close to being similar. Kobe was 29, reaching the end of his prime with NO significant upgrade to his cast in 3 years. Might not sound like a long time but Kobe signed under the premise that Lakers would build a contender around him and adopt a "win now" strategy (rather they concentrated more on developing young players). Then you have rumors created by someone in the Laker FO who told the press that Kobe "chased Shaq out of town" when anyone who is aware of what happened knows it's simply not true (management made that decision as Shaq was asking for too much money). Boiled over enough for Kobe to have to go to the radio to explain the situation, and hey in the end, it lit a fire under the Laker FO's asses, because a season that looked to be hopeless ended up leading them to the finals. Now think if Jordan in 1990 (same age as Kobe) had signed an extension and by 1993 the team hadn't improved at all during this time (he actually signed extension in 1989 irrc and Bulls kept improving every year, AND he was young while getting opportunity to put up great stats, what's to complain about here?). And then place him in today's environment where media is everywhere and I guarantee he makes a similar spectacle. Jordan is too competitive and legacy conscious to be just sitting around politely requesting FO to make trades.

FYI, Jordan trashed his teammates in several press interviews/conferences in the 80s. I've read several quotes by him that you just don't say in public while the season is still going on!

[OldSchoolBBall]

Punching teamates in the eye and having a teamate threaten you=WOAT.

And Neither side better not come up with excuses for these actions...

Kerr threw a punch first, in his own words. Hard play escalated to some shoving within the context of the game, and then Kerr took a swing.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Kobe was 29, reaching the end of his prime with NO significant upgrade to his cast in 3 years.

His peak has not ended yet.

[Fatal9]

Anyone believing Kerr, a role player, threw the first punch at Jordan (a level away from being God at the time) is a serious groupie. Even if he admitted it (which we have no proof of other than loki's saying so), it would clearly be to take the heat off Jordan. Why would Jordan be so apologetic about the incident if Kerr threw the first punch? Makes NO sense at all.

[Heilige]

Kobe didn't know he was being videotaped. Like Jordan had to worry about camera phones recording private conversations in 1988...:rolleyes:

Jordan and Kobe's situations weren't even close to being similar. Kobe was 29, reaching the end of his prime with NO significant upgrade to his cast in 3 years. Might not sound like a long time but Kobe signed under the premise that Lakers would build a contender around him and adopt a "win now" strategy (rather they concentrated more on developing young players). Then you have rumors created by someone in the Laker FO who told the press that Kobe "chased Shaq out of town" when anyone who is aware of what happened knows it's simply not true (management made that decision as Shaq was asking for too much money). Boiled over enough for Kobe to have to go to the radio to explain the situation, and hey in the end, it lit a fire under the Laker FO's asses, because a season that looked to be hopeless ended up leading them to the finals. Now think if Jordan in 1990 (same age as Kobe) had signed an extension and by 1993 the team hadn't improved at all during this time (he actually signed extension in 1989 irrc and Bulls kept improving every year, AND he was young while getting opportunity to put up great stats, what's to complain about here?). And then place him in today's environment where media is everywhere and I guarantee he makes a similar spectacle. Jordan is too competitive and legacy conscious to be just sitting around politely requesting FO to make trades.

FYI, Jordan trashed his teammates in several press interviews/conferences in the 80s. I've read several quotes by him that you just don't say in public while the season is still going on!



Exactly. That was the point I was trying to get across earlier. I forgot to mention how it wasn't fair to say Kobe publicly trashed his teammate, since he didn't know he was being videotaped.


Though, what do you consider Kobe's prime years? I think Kobe has 1-2 more prime years left.

[CB4GOATPF]

His peak has not ended yet.

2-3 more prime years...

Hell play well till age 35-36 do to his built.

[Heilige]

Anyone believing Kerr, a role player, threw the first punch at Jordan (a level away from being God at the time) is a serious groupie. Even if he admitted it (which we have no proof of other than loki's saying so), it would clearly be to take the heat off Jordan. Why would Jordan be so apologetic about the incident if Kerr threw the first punch? Makes NO sense at all.


I am not a Jordan groupie.

I believe Kerr's punch didn't connect but Jordan's did so he apologized. Also, Jordan provoked the whole situation, so he probably felt it was his fault the situation got heated.

[Heilige]

2-3 more prime years...

Hell play well till age 35-36 do to his built.


No player is in their prime at 33 years old. He might play well at 33-36, but those won't be his prime years.

[branslowski]

Kerr threw a punch first, in his own words. Hard play escalated to some shoving within the context of the game, and then Kerr took a swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6avQRL37Y&feature=channel_page

:no: Not so fast my groupie....Jordan explains the situation clear as day....He commited a hard foul, Kerr commited a hard foul, Jordan punched him, got kicked out of practice....Why didn't Kerr get kicked out? Why does Jordan call Kerr to apologize?...I mean, "since Kerr threw the first punch"..:oldlol:

:pimp:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Anyone believing Kerr, a role player, threw the first punch at Jordan (a level away from being God at the time) is a serious groupie. Even if he admitted it (which we have no proof of other than loki's saying so), it would clearly be to take the heat off Jordan. Why would Jordan be so apologetic about the incident if Kerr threw the first punch? Makes NO sense at all.

Kerr is quoted in some book saying he took a swing because it got very physical and he realized that he had to take a stand against Jordan or risk forever being his b%tch.

[OldSchoolBBall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6avQRL37Y&feature=channel_page

:no: Not so fast my groupie....Jordan explains the situation clear as day....He commited a hard foul, Kerr commited a hard foul, Jordan punched him, got kicked out of practice....Why didn't Kerr get kicked out? Why does Jordan call Kerr to apologize?...I mean, "since Kerr threw the first punch"..:oldlol:

:pimp:

Someone quoted Kerr's account (that he swung first) in another recent topic, and it's also in some books. Look around for it.

[branslowski]

Someone quoted Kerr's account (that he swung first) in another recent topic, and it's also in some books. Look around for it.

Did you watch the vid?...Why does Jordan have a diff story?...Why is Jordan the only guy kicked out of Practice?...Sorry but, since the vid i posted is the only verbal proof of the incident from the G.O.A.T's mouth, i'll beleive that.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Did you watch the vid?...Why does Jordan have a diff story?...Why is Jordan the only guy kicked out of Practice?...Sorry but, since the vid i posted is the only verbal proof of the incident from the G.O.A.T's mouth, i'll beleive that.

I can say the same thing: why does Kerr tell a different story? And where did you get that only MJ was thrown out of practice?

[Heilige]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6avQRL37Y&feature=channel_page

:no: Not so fast my groupie....Jordan explains the situation clear as day....He commited a hard foul, Kerr commited a hard foul, Jordan punched him, got kicked out of practice....Why didn't Kerr get kicked out? Why does Jordan call Kerr to apologize?...I mean, "since Kerr threw the first punch"..:oldlol:

:pimp:



http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb51/able1039/50andcatstaredown.gif

[Roundball_Rock]

Magic, and it is not close.

This.