Great Rivalries: Jordan and Dumars

[G.O.A.T]

http://www.need4sheed.com/images/dumars_jordan.jpg

"Without a doubt Michael Jordan was the one guy I got up for the most. He forced me to raise my game and I always loved the challenge."

Dumars on Jordan

"Joe Dumars was the guy that made me expand from an offensive standpoint...he challenged me like nobody else"

Jordan on Dumars

From 1988 to 1991 the Pistons and Bulls meet in the four consecutive seven game playoff series. In '88 The Pistons took the Eastern Conference Semifinals match-up Four games to one. The following two seasons the Pistons knocked off the Bulls in the conference finals on the way to NBA titles, four games to two in '89 and four-three in 1990. Then in 1991, Jordan and the Bulls broke through emphatically with a sweep of the Pistons on their way to the first of six titles in eight seasons.

The series were as physical as NBA hoops has ever been and as competitive and compelling for my money as well. The Pistons, spearheaded by Dumars and Dennis Rodman became one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history and created and instituted the "Jordan Rules" as way of stopping or at least outlasting the NBA's greatest perimeter player ever.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/jack_mccallum/10/27/defense.vogue/p1_jordan2_getty.jpg

The Jordan Rules on You Tube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE) (Very good analysis overall)

Jordan called Dumars the greatest defender he ever faced on repeated occasions and beyond that their mutual admiration is consistently apparent...

Jordan invited Dumars to his hotel suite at the NBA all-star game in 1990 and the two became close friends shortly after. Their friendship is one born out of mutual respect to be sure, but also out of understanding and sadly through similar personal tragedy. Both Jordan and DUmars lost their fathers during their NBA career and both won titles the shortly after and clutched the trophy in tears while pointing to the heavens. They both spent the entirety of their careers (Until MJ with the Bullets) with one team and are the greatest shooting guard in the history of that franchise. They also were each the Finals MVP during their teams franchises first title season.


http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6162/1106large.jpg

Though Dumars and the Pistons got the best of the Michael early on it was inevitably Jordan who had the last laugh. Before all was said and done MJ would eventually hit a game winning triple over Joe Dumars and help lead his Bulls to a sweep of the Pistons in the 1991 Eastern Conference Finals. Jordan would of course win six titles tripling the output of Detroit's back-to-back Championships, but still those battles of the late 80's and early 90's are unlike any other the NBA has seen before or since. Amidst all the bad blood, grudges held, physical play and apparent hatred, a bond born out of the love of the game and competing at the highest level has overcame it all.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2008-04/37933434.jpg

Jordan vs. Dumars 1990 Eastern Conference Finals Game 1 (Abridged Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii4Tp_ARuWs)

Both Jordan and Dumars continue their basketball legacies, Dumars has won another title as the Pistons President and General Manager, while Jordan has floundered thus far in front office positions in Washington and Charlotte.

Still their legacies are also carried on in by their children. Jordan's oldest Jeffrey is a junior at Illinios of the Big Ten conference, while Dumars son is set to begin his freshman season at South Florida of the Big East. His name, Jordan Dumars.


http://rottensource.com/questionimages/jeff_jordan2-300x300-a6806-1237480704-7.jpghttp://vmedia.rivals.com/IMAGES/PROSPECT/PHOTO/JORDANDUMARS6_27200.JPG
Jeffrey Jordan and Jordan Dumars

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/0514/chicago_g_jordan_dumars1_sw_600.jpg

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

this rivalry will be 10x better

http://www.grizzliesonline.com/gallery/0809/gal-090131-lakers/images/84573109_10.jpg

[G.O.A.T]

Great one reply and it's from that guy, I have you on ignore obviously, but let me guess, Mayo is better then both?

[InspiredLebowski]

I've been looking for full game tapes of those Bad Boys teams against prime Mike for awhile, I was only 7 or so at the time so I didn't grasp any of it. Seeing Jordan truly challenged, by one guy, is something I'd love to watch now that I'd actually be able to know what's happening.

And man, does Joe's son look just like him. Jeff Jordan quit the Illinois team though.

[G.O.A.T]

I've been looking for full game tapes of those Bad Boys teams against prime Mike for awhile, I was only 7 or so at the time so I didn't grasp any of it. Seeing Jordan truly challenged, by one guy, is something I'd love to watch now that I'd actually be able to know what's happening.

And man, does Joe's son look just like him. Jeff Jordan quit the Illinois team though.

I had heard that about Jeff Jordan too, but he was still on the roster so I assumed he reconsidered.

Jordan doesn't play a lot like his Dad all the time, he's bigger 6'5" probably and has the same sweet shot. He hit 9 threes in a game once for 27 points in three quarters and he's played on a HS team with five or six other D1 athletes including DeShonte Riley (Syracuse), Donovan Kirk (Miami (fla.) and Ray McCallum (Son of UofD coach and Top 5 senior class HS PG). Same High School that produced Chris Webber and Shane Battier.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I've been looking for full game tapes of those Bad Boys teams against prime Mike for awhile, I was only 7 or so at the time so I didn't grasp any of it. Seeing Jordan truly challenged, by one guy, is something I'd love to watch now that I'd actually be able to know what's happening.

And man, does Joe's son look just like him. Jeff Jordan quit the Illinois team though.
Pistons Championsip DVD has the entire 1989 ECF.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've been looking for full game tapes of those Bad Boys teams against prime Mike for awhile, I was only 7 or so at the time so I didn't grasp any of it. Seeing Jordan truly challenged, by one guy, is something I'd love to watch now that I'd actually be able to know what's happening.

And man, does Joe's son look just like him. Jeff Jordan quit the Illinois team though.

The '88-'91 playoff series between Chicago and Detroit (every game) is up on youtube. Check tjhunt's video channel (he's Da Realist on this forum). Each game is broken into parts, obviously.

[InspiredLebowski]

The '88-'91 playoff series between Chicago and Detroit (every game) is up on youtube. Check tjhunt's video channel (he's Da Realist on this forum). Each game is broken into parts, obviously.

Thanks. Is the quality any good? At least enough that I can make out who's who if I full screen it?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Thanks. Is the quality any good? At least enough that I can make out who's who if I full screen it?

Never tried to view it in full screen, so I'm not sure. Regular size the quality is fine, though. Commentating was better back then too (they followed the action much more closely, like "Isiah, to Johnson on the wing" etc.), so that helps.

[G.O.A.T]

The Commentary is great, Lunquist and Elmore are pretty good, but Dick Stockton and Hubie Brown are the best ever and only Marv and the Czar are close.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The Commentary is great, Lunquist and Elmore are pretty good, but Dick Stockton and Hubie Brown are the best ever and only Marv and the Czar are close.

Yeah, Dick Stockton's play by play was exactly what I was thinking of when I made that comment. He definitely needs someone with some personality next to him as the color guy, but as a play by play man he was excellent.

[Fatal9]

Agreed on Dick Stockton being the best commentator. He only seems to get one series nowadays though (not sure if it is his decision or TNT's). One of the few commentators who can truly be called "old school" because he's got those quick hitting descriptions. Shame someone as rehearsed and redundant as Mike Breen is the voice of basketball these days.

[Jacks3]

There was no rivalry. Jordan consistently put up huge numbers on Dumars.

[G.O.A.T]

There was no rivalry. Jordan consistently put up huge numbers on Dumars.

You have so much to learn. Not only is that untrue, you could have learned it was untrue by simply watching the game I linked for you. Jordan averaged 10ppg under his average against all other teams vs. Dumars and the Pistons in the playoffs. In the first two games of the 1990 Series Dumars outscored Jordan while shooting over 60% from the field. Dumars won 3 of 4 career series against Jordan, and MJ said he was the best to ever guard him. How dumb do you look?

[phoenix18]

There was no rivalry. Jordan consistently put up huge numbers on Dumars.
I am 18 years old, wasnt alive for dumars upper hand, and still KNOW that you are wrong. GTFO.

[Jacks3]

You have so much to learn. Not only is that untrue, you could have learned it was untrue by simply watching the game I linked for you. Jordan averaged 10ppg under his average against all other teams vs. Dumars and the Pistons in the playoffs. In the first two games of the 1990 Series Dumars outscored Jordan while shooting over 60% from the field. Dumars won 3 of 4 career series against Jordan, and MJ said he was the best to ever guard him. How dumb do you look?
I'm pretty sure that Jordan's career averages against the Pistons in the play-offs was something like 31+/6/6/2 on 48%+ shooting. Dumars was a great defender, but he couldn't stop or even contain Jordan.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm pretty sure that Jordan's career averages against the Pistons in the play-offs was something like 31+/6/6/2 on 48%+ shooting. Dumars was a great defender, but he couldn't stop or even contain Jordan.

The Pistons won 3 out of 4, nobody else beat MJ twice. Dumars guarded him the most, held him way under his playoff averages for that part of his career, and elevated his scoring averages consistently against Jordan a first team all-defensive player.

My problem is you make such a short and substantiated comment (that is wrong in every sense I've so far evaluated or thought of) after you clearly did not read the post, but instead just the title and then when you get called out you still won't just admit you were talking out your ass.

Be Like Mike, learn from this and get better. That's what he did after Dumars, a far less talented player got the best of him three straight years.

[Jacks3]

The Pistons won 3 out of 4, nobody else beat MJ twice. Dumars guarded him the most, held him way under his playoff averages for that part of his career, and elevated his scoring averages consistently against Jordan a first team all-defensive player.

My problem is you make such a short and substantiated comment (that is wrong in every sense I've so far evaluated or thought of) after you clearly did not read the post, but instead just the title and then when you get called out you still won't just admit you were talking out your ass.

Be Like Mike, learn from this and get better. That's what he did after Dumars, a far less talented player got the best of him three straight years.
Okay. First, who cares about Dumars TEAM winning 3/4. He had a much better TEAM around him. It means nothing. Could you provide a link for your numbers? What do you mean by " held him way under his playoff averages for that part of his career, and elevated his scoring averages consistently against Jordan a first team all-defensive player." Like I said, Jordan consistently put up huge numbers against the Pistons in the play-offs. And he put up far better numbers the Dumars. So, I don't how Dumars was getting the best of him unless you think it's just because his team won, which isn't really fair to Jordan.

[G.O.A.T]

Okay. First, who cares about Dumars TEAM winning 3/4. He had a much better TEAM around him. It means nothing. Could you provide a link for your numbers? What do you mean by " held him way under his playoff averages for that part of his career, and elevated his scoring averages consistently against Jordan a first team all-defensive player." Like I said, Jordan consistently put up huge numbers against the Pistons in the play-offs. And he put up far better numbers the Dumars. So, I don't how Dumars was getting the best of him unless you think it's just because his team won, which isn't really fair to Jordan.

You're still missing the point, If you want the numbers' look them up or watch the game I linked where there is a graphic citing MJ's 39ppg playoff average against all non-Pistons teams and his 29 per game vs. Detroit. Winning is the name of the game. Jordan had the same starting five in 1989 and 1990 that he did for his first three titles. Dumars role was different than Jordan's he shot the ball much less, had the ball much less, but in his duels with MJ he was more efficient with his touches then Michael, again watching the games will allow to see that, listening to me who has watched them and is telling you that will allow to learn as well. Arguing with me despite having no idea what your talking about beyond some out of context very basic stats that you haven't even referenced and a preconceived notion that the greatest of all-time must have annihilated everyone just makes you stay at the same level of knowledge and understanding. Beyond that I don't care enough to discuss this with you anymore.

[Jacks3]

You're still missing the point, If you want the numbers' look them up or watch the game I linked where there is a graphic citing MJ's 39ppg playoff average against all non-Pistons teams and his 29 per game vs. Detroit. Winning is the name of the game. Jordan had the same starting five in 1989 and 1990 that he did for his first three titles. Dumars role was different than Jordan's he shot the ball much less, had the ball much less, but in his duels with MJ he was more efficient with his touches then Michael, again watching the games will allow to see that, listening to me who has watched them and is telling you that will allow to learn as well. Arguing with me despite having no idea what your talking about beyond some out of context very basic stats that you haven't even referenced and a preconceived notion that the greatest of all-time must have annihilated everyone just makes you stay at the same level of knowledge and understanding. Beyond that I don't care enough to discuss this with you anymore.
I don't have the exact numbers, but neither do you. But I'm certain that Jordan put up huge cumulative against Dumars in the play-offs. I don't care enough to look through that graphic about his PPG declining from 39 to 29 or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't tell the full story. Dumars was more efficient (if he even was) because he had a far better team around him, wasn't the #1 option, didn't draw the same amount of defensive attention, and generally wasn't producing at close to the same level of volume, which naturally will make his efficiency increase. You're arrogance is unbelievable. :oldlol:

[ZMonkey11]

I don't have the exact numbers, but neither do you. But I'm certain that Jordan put up huge cumulative against Dumars in the play-offs. I don't care enough to look through that graphic about his PPG declining from 39 to 29 or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't tell the full story. Dumars was more efficient (if he even was) because he had a far better team around him, wasn't the #1 option, didn't draw the same amount of defensive attention, and generally wasn't producing at close to the same level of volume, which naturally will make his efficiency increase. You're arrogance is unbelievable. :oldlol:

and you are downplaying exact quotes from Jordan himself?

[Jacks3]

and you are downplaying exact quotes from Jordan himself?
Well, actually I'm sure that Jordan said Mich Richmond did the best job on him defensively. Even if I'm mistaken and it was Dumars, that doesn't change the fact that Jordan consistently torched him. I'm not trying to insult Dumars here.

[L.A. Jazz]

Thanks for posting the video-link. really good analysis.
Always good to get info from people who actually saw these games.
(in the 80s we just had 2 channels at home. :D )

and G.O.A.T.: waiting hard for your top 100 players list to go on. fix your PC. ;)

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks for posting the video-link. really good analysis.
Always good to get info from people who actually saw these games.
(in the 80s we just had 2 channels at home. :D )

and G.O.A.T.: waiting hard for your top 100 players list to go on. fix your PC. ;)

Appreciate you following the 100 thread and chiming in on this one as well. It blows my mind how few questions people ask today. If I had the internet when I was a kid that's all I'd have done for days was ask questions about George Mikan and Oscar Robertson and Wilt and Russ and Yardley and Fulks all the guys I've never really gotten to see at their best. I loved stats as a kid and still do, but stats don't tell the story that another person can, not even close.

[dwightderon]

Appreciate you following the 100 thread and chiming in on this one as well. It blows my mind how few questions people ask today. If I had the internet when I was a kid that's all I'd have done for days was ask questions about George Mikan and Oscar Robertson and Wilt and Russ and Yardley and Fulks all the guys I've never really gotten to see at their best. I loved stats as a kid and still do, but stats don't tell the story that another person can, not even close.
heres a q, if you took dumars and stuck him in todays league wat wud be his rankin for position and overall players?
:cheers:

[G.O.A.T]

So hard to say, and depends on how much benefit of the doubt you give him.

First of all he'd likely be a PG in todays NBA, he played both with Detroit.

Second he was among the best three point shooters of his day, so add the fact that the three was something he'd have practiced from a young age and not just college on he'd be very prolific from there. If your generous and let him keep his post game too he's Chauncy Billups with better percentages and defense.

A peak Joe Dumars with modern stregth training and skill development would be this type of player in my opinion.

20 ppg 7 apg 3 rpg 47-41-89 %'s

The 2nd best PG in the NBA behind Chris Paul.

[G.O.A.T]

Someone was asking about Joe Dumars last week, here's a good Dumars thread.

[LBJFTW]

A post by the OP that isn't from the 1970's that I can actually relate to. Yes, the Jordan/Dumars was quite the match up but Jordan overcame adversity, and then proceeded to shit on the NBA with a 6/6 finals record.

Dumars is the best defender to ever hold Jordan, but not even he could stop the inevitable over time.