30 minute Lebron video and a totally statless case for him to be top 20 ever. Today.

[Kblaze8855]

I get asked about doing a Lebron video all the time but I never feel like it because hes so well covered. But like Kobe...I just decided to do one big one to cover a good bit. Probably wont get another one for 10 years. But I cant justify disregarding him.

3 Parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kZYzCsuYY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Acz-QB7olis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdTMw7rwQqw



I was trying to decide how to go about discussing just how great this guy is....but I didnt want to bombard you with a list of numbers ESPN stuffs down your throat. So instead im gonna try to explain just why I think so highly of this guy...based on nothing but what he has done already.

Id like to first say that im not sure id actually put him as high as the number at the end of this...just that by what hes done on the floor there isnt much reason not to.


When you really think it out im not sure you can make a good case for more than 20-30 players ever being better than him. Usually for a 24 yearold you have to bring up what they will do later. but with Lebron...consider this:

Lebron is perhaps the most unusual player of all time looking at his combo of size and skills. Wilt, Shaq, Dirk, and Garnett types are tall/massive and have unusual agility, ball handling, and so on. But Lebron? Lebron is either taller of heavier than all but one person considered an elite PF all time and really I dont know that Duncan is over 270. I know hes not listed there but...who knows? point is this guy is a 4/5 sized player who plays 4 positions on a regular basis. His speed, strength, and agility are unheard of at his size. Because of it hes perhaps the greatest bully(in a good way) the league has seen outside Shaq types.

He plays one of the most aggressive and humbling(if you are guarding him...it has to shake your confidence a bit to just be big boyed the way he does) players ive ever seen. Right there with Barkley, a young Larry Johnson when he was on, Shawn Kemp, and maybe David Robinson as guys who physically just seemed too much to compete with.

Because of it(and very underrated skills) he has done more at 24 than most of the hall of fame ever did. Because of his physical ability hes had stretch of domination that had people questioning if he was even still playing basketball(they did so in a bad way....but he was getting the job done).

People love the numbers and all but going beyond them....

How many people have actually won anything as a teams best player that Lebron has not?

Off the top of my head(as all of this will be...feel free to correct anything I **** up on):

George Mikan
Dolph Schayes
Bob Davies
Niel Johnston
Paul Arizin
Joe Fulks
Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Reed
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Dennis/Gus Johnson
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Isiah
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups/Ben Wallace
Wade
KG
Kobe

28 players. Lets throw out the guys who you just clearly arent gonna justify listing as better players than Lebron James. which gets us to:

George Mikan
Niel Johnston
Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Reed
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Dennis/Gus Johnson
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Isiah
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Wade
KG
Kobe

23.

with all due respect to George Mikan...you...nor anyone who has common sense...is picking him over Lebron James. And im not sure you know who Johnston is. which doesnt make him worse...but when you look at his body of work and that he played with about 3 people on my first list in their primes? And that I Paul Arizin was the leading scorer on his title team even if not best player(I may need to look that up later)....I dont know if you give him the spot over Bron. Im gonna remove Mikan and Johnston for now.

Down to 21.

And how many of that 20 were ever considered the best player inthe NBA? I know that due to overlapping careers with all time elites....not many people veer have been considered the best. But still..how many? How many of those guys were ever as highly regarded league wide as Lebron is now? How many were MVP players?

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Walton
Reed
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Kobe

We are down to 18. 15 if we throw out the kindness and just admit that 3 of them you would never take over Lebron. But I wont do that. Not right now at least.

With those 18 as a base...who else do we need to consider for the other 2 spots?

Lebron
Baylor
West
Oscar
Barkley
Malone
Doctor J
Cousy
Drob


Now...elgin Baylor.

You know what elgin BAylor is? Lebron 50 years ago....minus the fact he never won an MVP. He had outstanding stats, made the finals, and lost. At least 7 times. Maybe 9. Not clear on that. Fact is...unless one wants to base it entirely on stats he didnt accomplish anything Lebron didnt. And while people marvel at his athletic ability and dominance...you arent trading Lebron for Elgin Baylor. for reasons partly related to era Bron is gonna have better range, hes easily the greater athlete, and its not like Bron had the same thing to work with Elgin did. Elgin had at one point Jerry West and Wilt...and didnt win. So unless youre prepared to hit me with an intricate skill by skill comparison id go with Lebron if im starting a team.


West? I wont call Lebron better than Jerry West right now....though mst everything I said of Baylor applies to West. West never actually won anything Lebron didnt despite better teams to do it. They wn the 72 title but they didnt win it because of Jerry more than Wilt. And Jerry had one of the worst finals of all time when they won anyway. Due to my respect for his legacy as well as clutch play, defense, and passing....I generally rank him over Baylor...even if I cant explain why he was Baylors sidekick for years. Jerry West has a legacy greater than that of Lebrons and he did do just enough that I wouldnt argue if someone put him over bron. Nor would I really argue Baylor...but im not taking him over Lebron to win me a game.

Oscar needs no justification for top 20 nor a spot over Lebron legacy wise.

Barkley? He simply did nothing Lebron didnt. He was the Lebron of the 80s. Just too physical to contend with, great numbers, and some bad teams he took to more success than was likely. worse defender. Better rebounder. Similar passers. Comes down to what you need. I call it a near tossup. But Barkley did not accomplish anything in basketball Lebron didnt.


Karl Malone? My feelings on him are well known...and if not....

He was the most choke prone overrated player of my life and due partly to a skillset that wasnt of much use when you had to get a key basket id never...ever....take him over Lebron.

Doctor J? The 70s Lebron. Too physical. Ahead of his time. But he never did anything Lebron didnt till Moses came along...and Moses won them that title. You can call it a tossup with no argument from me.

Cousy?

3 words. **** outta here.

Set shot shooting pointguards who arent Magic Johnson arent for me. His greatest accomplishment is making flashy passing popular but he wasnt just...alone in it. But he was on the Celtics who allowed him to win and be noticed. They won a grip of titles without him. Tricky Dick McGuire was as amazing highlights wise to me and likely wins every ring Cousy did. I respect bob....but hes a 40s product. And 40s points did no have jumpers. Simply will not accept him being better on the floor...than Lebron. Best case is hes Steve Nash without a jumper...and Steve Nash as he is isnt as good as Lebron anyway.

Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron. Anyway we come to 24 names.

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Reed
Cowens/Hondo
Kareem
Hayes/Unseld
Rick Barry
Walton
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
KG
Kobe
Lebron
Baylor
West
Oscar
Barkley
Doctor J
Drob

show of hands...who is taking any of these people to start a team over Lebron James:

Cowens/Hondo
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Petitt
Walton
Reed

?

I respect Dave Cowens and I find Hondo to be quite underrated. 8 titles, all nba many times, a 29/9/8 player in his prime, and maybe the best player on a title team. Id understand a case for him over Lebron. Cowens was the MVP over Hondo on the same team. So you gotta give him a nod too. So whoever you give credit to thonse rings for...fine. But consider this:

You are starting a team right now. You can have Lebron or one of them? Who is honestly taking one?

And that isnt an era thing t ome. Its a "What have I seen?" thing. Ive seen Lebron do everything I would want out of my best player. Ive seen a good bit of Hondo and Dave but I cant justify taking them over Bron with it. At best...Hondo equals Lebron. And Dave is what? Great rebounding guy who never scored at huige rates. Could pass, Play D. Hustle/heart guy. so hes what? Dwight with a jumper, passing and no superman hops(Cowens could jump...but not like Dwight)? I just dont see reason to rank them over him on the floor. By resume sure. On the floor? Eh.

Baylor and Bob P...at time underrated/disregarded. But I go back to starting a team. Who you got in that trio? Baylor is 50s Lebron. If I can have modern Lebron...I take him. Bob has an underrated legacy and my respect. But 20 minutes of footage and a resume built on pre Russell/wilt prime MVPs/title and an injured russell ring dont make me overlook the fact that Lebron is his height, 50 pounds bigger, and has a modern skillset. I wouldnt take him over Lebron and neither would you.

Walton? He was Tim Duncan...for about 45 minutes. Underrated when he was healthy. But....im not even gonna finish that.

Reed? He had a great stretch where he was elite on both ends. But the edge he has is because he was on a team that peaked at I believe 7 hall of famers and hes famous for limping out and making 2 jumpers before Frazier put up 36/19 and 5 steals to win the title. I put him next to Cowens. For whatever reason hes not given elite status even by those who watched him so...I wont break the trend. He had post moves, defense, a jumper, and toughness. But he doesnt come up when the all time greats...best of the best...come up. Injury problems hurt.

I think you can make a case that Lebron is the right pick over all 6 of them unless we get a promise from God that Walton and reed would be 100%.

As it stands I think you can put Lebron 18th on an all time list based on what hes done. And considering that Wade isnt considered better thn Lebron right now? And that a case can be made hes better than Kobe too? Whats to stop a 16th all time ranking? Who else we got?

[Kblaze8855]

Drexler, Nique, Ewing? I think that all 3 of them combined have 3 finals trips, 3 all nba first teams, and no MVPs. None of them led a 66 win team and all of them had more to work with than Lebron(even relative to era). Drexler have any skills Lebron didnt? You can argue hes an equal passer. Nothing else. His D was there when he felt like it but he didnt have the size of Lebron to guard as many types of players. Nique did not one thing better than Lebron. Nothing. But dunk. and we really counting that? He had prettier moves around the basket. A better floater. But he did nothing to rank him over Lebronn. Ewing gets the "Big man in a bad era of them" bonus when we pick teams but once again...

What exactly did he accomplish that Lebron didnt?

Yea. I didnt think so. Pre injury Ewing....might be the right pick over Lebron with our lack of centers. But he wasnt just more dominant. He couldnt do more with a bad team than Lebron.

Who else is there really?

Mchale, Parish, Mcadoo, Cunningham, and guysl ike that? Earl Monroe? gervin is about the best we have left. And Hayes/Unseld. Gervin scored more than Lebron. Arguably a flat out better scorer. And nothing else(though I loved him as a kid and always will...my 3rd favorite Bull ever). didnt win anything Bron didnt regular season or playoffs. Never won any award Bron didnt.

Who do we have who did ANYTHING Lebron has not....

At 24?

These 15 players I think you can say were better than Lebron and not get much argument:

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Baylor
West
Oscar

*Id throw Isiah in there but many people wouldnt.*

And 3-4 of them you wouldnt actually take over Lebron to build a team.

There are only about 11 guys....ever...who are no brainer picks to rank over Lebron. And one of them?

Oscar robertson.

What exactly did Oscar do?

He got better stats in an era more prone to that. He won less. He has the same MVP. He won as a second fiddle. Know what Oscar has? The triple double legacy and a lot of all NBA teams. But he didnt actually....do...anything Lebron didnt. And plenty of people who have are as we speak not as highly regarded(Wade for one).

Lebron has joined Kobe on the short list of players who unless you use someone top 10 all time....you struggle to find anyone we can easily call flat out better.

We just as a society dont like the idea of ranking young guys that high.

But you know what? In 20 years when Lebron is considered top 20(and he will be) it will be current Lebron people mean. as offensive as the idea of Lebron being top 15 all time is....when he retires and is considered that(healthy..he will)...2009 Lebron is who they point to. we are watching a true all time elite player....playing on a level 90% of the hall of fame never did.

And the only reason not to rank him top 20 all time right now? It feels....early. Even if when we do...we mean the player hes been for 5 years.

Lebron at 19 was better than first ball hall of famers. Lebron inhis second season was better than Reggie Miller ever was.

We might not like the idea of it...but this kid has been top 50 all time good since 2 years before he could drink. And right now? Hes an MVP, 66 game winning, DPOY runner up, 3-4 time all nba first team, statistical monster who cant be guarded one on one and gets into the lane and does work as well as any non bigman short of Jordan...ever.

Its uncomfortable to hear or say but...Lebron..right now...is the player we will all rank top 5-15 all time in the future. Im ok if you cant make yourself do it now. But many people in 1988 wouldnt call MJ the GOAT. But when people say it now...they use 1988 to justify it.

Even throwing out all reasining ive used in here...you can call him top 25 before he turns 25. And he might play 15 more years. Last guy you could say that about was Shaq. And we saw how that went.

[checkman]

:cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

And even considering all that id like to say...

Hes not thaaaaaaaaaaaat much better than Wade. hes better. But hes not...Wade is top 60 and Lebron is top 20 better. If Lebron is top 25 Wade is top 35. Much of the sports world just doesnt want to accept it yet.

[madmax]

another amazing post and great evaluation of great player:bowdown: :bowdown: Lebron is easily the most dominant SF player I've seen in 20 years and he is only getting better...the only thing he is missing right now is titles and it looks like Cavs are finally ready to bring pieces together for him - I feel privileged to watch this amazing athlete play with my own eyes.

[checkman]

And even considering all that id like to say...

Hes not thaaaaaaaaaaaat much better than Wade. hes better. But hes not...Wade is top 60 and Lebron is top 20 better. If Lebron is top 25 Wade is top 35. Much of the sports world just doesnt want to accept it yet.

to me lebron and wade are the same

but if i had to choose one for my nba franchise ill choose lebron

no hate on wade and i think lebron and dwayne wade should be in the top 20 honestly well that's just my opinion

[bdreason]

He still needs to win multiple championships to get in the GOAT (top 5) discussion.

[Lebron23]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[guy]

Great post. I guess the best way to assess where a current player's all-time ranking is would be to pretend they got hit by a bus tomorrow and could never play again. Lebron would suffer alot from the lack of longevity, but I think he would still be top 20 or 25. Wade on the other hand would be about top 30-40 IMO just cause he's already been very injury prone.

In general, current players get very underrated. Lebron has been playing at an all-time great level for the past 4 years, Kobe has for about the past 7 years, and Wade has for most of the past 4 years. I would even add CP3 of the past 2 years, who is probably playing at a level that no PG since Magic Johnson has played at. Its a great time for the game right now.

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at taking Kobe out but leaving West, Baylor, Oscar (amongst others) on. What the hell is wrong with you? Have you seen numbers Kobe has been putting up in the playoffs since he got his own team (at almost equal scoring efficiency as first three-peat Jordan too)? Lebron is still too flawed to take over a prime Kobe. I think his jumper has finally become consistent (though it didn't really take off till midway this season) but can't be sure.

And Lebron is not a better defender than Drexler, though like you pointed out, he may be more versatile. I have him as top 25 but that's only because he needs a couple more years to add to his legacy.

[KoolKat]

When you see it from that angle, you got a very valid point. But I'd take Kobe over Pettit\Baylor.

Nice mix, nice post :cheers:

Hey, where you got all your footage man ?

[Kblaze8855]

I think the list changed a number of times. I wasnt paying the closest attention.there is a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Kobe over everyone I put Lebron over. though id rather have Lebron. Lebron is unstoppable because of things that dont vary with how hot he is. When his jumper doesnt fall he can still get to the basket every single time he tries.

Lebron having a terrible game means hes missing layups. Lebron bad games are flukey. Kobe bad games are because he takes some of the toughest shots in NBA history and nobody can make them all the time. Lebron is a more night in night out threat to play near his peak potential I think.

Kobe is amazing for his ability to make difficult shots. Lebron is amazing for his ability to not need to take a difficult shot.

[barbaroi]

You can't use this argument without acknowledging the converse. If None of these guys have ever done anything to put them over Lebron, Lebron has never done anything to put himself over the likes of Barkley, Baylor, and yes MALONE to name a few. Lebron has stats and.... what else? You're acting as if Lebron is this clear path to a great team more so than many greats of the past who had better stats than Lebron and just as much or more team success. If he is, I haven't seen it yet.

[Lebron23]

You can't use this argument without acknowledging the converse. If None of these guys have ever done anything to put them over Lebron, Lebron has never done anything to put himself over the likes of Barkley, Baylor, and yes MALONE to name a few. Lebron has stats and.... what else? You're acting as if Lebron is this clear path to a great team more so than many greats of the past who had better stats than Lebron and just as much or more team success. If he is, I haven't seen it yet.


I am not going to defend LeBron, but your favorite NBA player was being rated as a top 12 player of all time before he won his first NBA Finals MVP last year.

Give LeBron a chance because he still have many chances to win an NBA Finals MVP in the next decade.

[Kblaze8855]

Virtually everyone with better stats than Lebron had them in a time there were more to be had. Rebounds....shots...all that. Elgin Baylor was taking 33 shots a game. You would have to expect more points.

Besides the point wasnt that Lebron is factually better than guys like Barkley and Baylor(though he is better than Malone...). Its that those guys get top 10-20 rankings while not being better than him.

Hes the guy building his legacy. Hes the age Larry bird was at the end of his rookie season. And hes already done as much as some of the 10-20 best of all time. Im nto saying hes done more. I dont see a case for top 10 or anything.

[iamgine]

Well, considering Lebron just had the best PER out of any player in NBA history last season, it's really not surprising. Guy has a decent chance of being considered the GOAT over MJ when his career is over. He just need the rings to come along with the domination.

[Fatal9]

I think the list changed a number of times. I wasnt paying the closest attention.there is a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Kobe over everyone I put Lebron over. though id rather have Lebron. Lebron is unstoppable because of things that dont vary with how hot he is. When his jumper doesnt fall he can still get to the basket every single time he tries.

Lebron having a terrible game means hes missing layups. Lebron bad games are flukey. Kobe bad games are because he takes some of the toughest shots in NBA history and nobody can make them all the time. Lebron is a more night in night out threat to play near his peak potential I think.

Kobe is amazing for his ability to make difficult shots. Lebron is amazing for his ability to not need to take a difficult shot.
Then why has Kobe been the more consistent playoff performer over the last 4 years? In that time Kobe has had only one bad series, which happened against one of the greatest defenses of all-time, and a team that embarrassed Lebron even worse.

[barbaroi]

Virtually everyone with better stats than Lebron had them in a time there were more to be had. Rebounds....shots...all that. Elgin Baylor was taking 33 shots a game. You would have to expect more points.

Besides the point wasnt that Lebron is factually better than guys like Barkley and Baylor(though he is better than Malone...). Its that those guys get top 10-20 rankings while not being better than him.

Hes the guy building his legacy. Hes the age Larry bird was at the end of his rookie season. And hes already done as much as some of the 10-20 best of all time. Im nto saying hes done more. I dont see a case for top 10 or anything.
You're absolutely correct when you say he's building his legacy. And what all those guys have over Lebron is longevity. If Lebron continues to put up good numbers for 5-10 more years and never earns a ring, he too will be considered in the 11-20 range. Right now, however, since those guys put up numbers over a long career they are still placed over Lebron who likewise has no ring.

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Youtube is blocked at work. Do you have a dl link so I can watch it on windows media player?

[Kblaze8855]

Then why has Kobe been the more consistent playoff performer over the last 4 years? In that time Kobe has had only one bad series, which happened against one of the greatest defenses of all-time, and a team that embarrassed Lebron even worse.

Kobe was worse in the 06 playoffs, in 07 he lost in the first round doing nothing special against a team allergic to defense while Lebron drug his team kicking and screaming to the finals vs the Pistons, and in 08 neither of them had a bad series till they played the Celtics. Kobe had a better playoffs one year. And thats because they won it all. Not because he was just amazingly dominant. Lebron in 09 had a playoff run people would use as evidence Michael Jordan is the GOAT if MJ had it in his youth(and he had several similar ones). Kobes is better because they won.

The teams do factor in. I wouldnt trade Pau Gasol for the entire Cavs lineup outside Lebron(as of last year...dont know what they do this yeaR). Really. If the Bulls could have

Rose/Mo/Gibson
Salmons/West
Deng/Wally
Tyrus/Anderson
z/Noah/Ben

or

Rose
Salmons
Deng
Gasol/Tyrus
Noah


Id take the Gasol team. 10 out of 10. Pau Gasol on his own is worth more than Lebrons entire supporting cast.

[Kblaze8855]

You're absolutely correct when you say he's building his legacy. And what all those guys have over Lebron is longevity. If Lebron continues to put up good numbers for 5-10 more years and never earns a ring, he too will be considered in the 11-20 range. Right now, however, since those guys put up numbers over a long career they are still placed over Lebron who likewise has no ring.

Longevity doesnt put the ball i nthe basket. Lebron retires today hes no better than if he plays on the same level for 20 years. Hes the same person. People dont get better in retrospect when they add to their legacy. Unless its a situation like Walton where a guy misses years at a time and is healthy for like 3 seasons ever...fine.

But Lebron vs most of these guys? Not much of a factor.

[Kblaze8855]

Youtube is blocked at work. Do you have a dl link so I can watch it on windows media player?

I do for part 1 but 2 and 3 wont be uploaded for a while. If I started now they wouldnt be done till 7-8 and ill be at work by then.

[abuC]

Excellent post and great videos, that "Shining down" song by Lupe is incredible too, great music choices.

[Darius]

And even considering all that id like to say...

Hes not thaaaaaaaaaaaat much better than Wade. hes better. But hes not...Wade is top 60 and Lebron is top 20 better. If Lebron is top 25 Wade is top 35. Much of the sports world just doesnt want to accept it yet.

You have to take longevity into account somewhere.

Lebron played in the L from 18 years old and has shown (thus far) incredible resistance to injury.

Wade came into the league later and has been plagued by injuries (and probably will continue to be so) - that's why I don't think he will get in the top 20 conversation.

[Darius]

Longevity doesnt put the ball i nthe basket. Lebron retires today hes no better than if he plays on the same level for 20 years. Hes the same person. People dont get better in retrospect when they add to their legacy. Unless its a situation like Walton where a guy misses years at a time and is healthy for like 3 seasons ever...fine.

But Lebron vs most of these guys? Not much of a factor.

I don't think that's fair to say.

A guy that plays at a certain level for 20 years is a more productive, better basketball player than one who can only do it for 10 years.

I don't think he's twice as good but it does need to be factored.

Great post, by the way.

[Kblaze8855]

How do you judge someones ability to play basketball at any given moment by what happened over 20 years? How does a 20 year career help you win a game in May of year 6?

[1987_Lakers]

Career wise, LeBron isn't top 20 all-time yet, but compare 2009 LeBron James with other all-time great players in their prime and I think LeBron cracks the top 20. Think about it, what other SF not named Larry Bird had a better season than 2009 LeBron? What PF other than 2003 Tim Duncan had a better season than 2009 LeBron? '93 Barkley & '04 Garnett come close, but no.

[Darius]

How do you judge someones ability to play basketball at any given moment by what happened over 20 years? How does a 20 year career help you win a game in May of year 6?

The world is 4 dimensional - there has to be a time component.

Is this top 20 players based on careers or based on single moments in time?

Should Tony Delk be cracking the top 100?

[Kblaze8855]

Taking it to a one game thing is no different than people saying "So Steve Kerr>barkley" when someone mentiones rings as an issue.

Tony Delk scoring 53 is not the same as Lebron being better than someone who played a long time. You are as good as you are able to play on a regular basis.

If two players are equal for 10 years and one plays better for 10 more and the other retires...the one who played 20 years doesnt get a better jumper in retrospect. They were exactly as good as they played.

You dont get better because you play the same way for a long time. You get better when you play better. And you cant play better than you already played. All you can do is add to your legacy. which does nothing for your ability to play basketball while building it. No extra jumpers fall. No extra defense played. Legacy is not ability at any given point.

[ShaquilleIzzle]

Kblaze, not to go off-topic but how do you feel about the Cavs-Magic series if they do face off looking at it now, would Shaq be able to neutralize Dwight?

[OneMoreSucka]

Yo kblaze your video's good and I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish, but bruceblitz makes some of the greatest videos of ALL TIME!!!!

[StroShow4]

Yo kblaze your video's good and I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish, but bruceblitz makes some of the greatest videos of ALL TIME!!!!

:oldlol:

[Mr_Basketball#1]

Yo kblaze your video's good and I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish, but bruceblitz makes some of the greatest videos of ALL TIME!!!!
:oldlol:

[Brunch@Five]

I think you committed the cardinal sin comparing skills/players abilities over different eras (Bron vs Baylor etc), but other than that I kinda agree. Bron is an MVP-winning stat-stuffer (in a positive way) who got his team to the finals when that team actually had no business to make it that far. Had some memorable playoff performances, some bad ones. Sounds exactly top-15 to top 25ish to me, even if his career ends now.

[beasted86]

I stopped reading past the Elgin Baylor part. I don't know how somone in their right mind has LeBron ahead of Baylor career wise already.

Like the hispanic guys say: Tu eres loco en la cabeza.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont know if id put it that way. But all Elgin Baylor really did is have Lebrons 2007 season like 8 times. Only he did it with Jerry West next to him and not Larry Hughes. He did it enough that the accomplishments pile up in his favor totals wise. But not as far as what he actually got done on the floor.

[D-Rose]

Yo kblaze your video's good and I'm happy for you and Imma let you finish, but bruceblitz makes some of the greatest videos of ALL TIME!!!!
:oldlol:

[ShaquilleIzzle]

Kblaze, not to go off-topic but how do you feel about the Cavs-Magic series if they do face off looking at it now, would Shaq be able to neutralize Dwight?
Kblaze.

[bdreason]

Taking it to a one game thing is no different than people saying "So Steve Kerr>barkley" when someone mentiones rings as an issue.

Tony Delk scoring 53 is not the same as Lebron being better than someone who played a long time. You are as good as you are able to play on a regular basis.

If two players are equal for 10 years and one plays better for 10 more and the other retires...the one who played 20 years doesnt get a better jumper in retrospect. They were exactly as good as they played.

You dont get better because you play the same way for a long time. You get better when you play better. And you cant play better than you already played. All you can do is add to your legacy. which does nothing for your ability to play basketball while building it. No extra jumpers fall. No extra defense played. Legacy is not ability at any given point.


So you think a guy who averages 20/10 for 1 year is the same as a guy who averages 20/10 for 10 years?

Each to his own.

[guy]

Longevity doesnt put the ball i nthe basket. Lebron retires today hes no better than if he plays on the same level for 20 years. Hes the same person. People dont get better in retrospect when they add to their legacy. Unless its a situation like Walton where a guy misses years at a time and is healthy for like 3 seasons ever...fine.

But Lebron vs most of these guys? Not much of a factor.

You really think longevity shouldn't matter that much? Since the Kobe vs. Lebron has already been brought up lets expand on that. You keep talking about how you would take Lebron over all these guys on your team, but it sounds like your only talking about them at their best. I would probably take Lebron at his best over Kobe at his best. But lets say both Kobe and Lebron's careers ended tomorrow. Knowing that Lebron's career only lasts 6 seasons, while Kobe's last 13 seasons, would you really take Lebron over Kobe to start a team? 6 years of Lebron over 13 years of Kobe? There's no way I would take Lebron. Thats why I would say Kobe>Lebron all-time right now.

[CJ Mustard]

So you think a guy who averages 20/10 for 1 year is the same as a guy who averages 20/10 for 10 years?

Each to his own. You mean 'to each his own'. Good attempt though. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze, not to go off-topic but how do you feel about the Cavs-Magic series if they do face off looking at it now, would Shaq be able to neutralize Dwight?

No. he will do better than Z and Anderson but he wont stop him exactly. But Dwight isnt stopped in a traditional. half his points arent really defended. He jumps over you gets a rebound and puts it back. Or he runs the break for an easy one. He will do that vs anyone. And with Carter now? And a healthy Jameer?

The Magic can beat anyone in the east. I dont expect it. But they shouldnt be looked past.


So you think a guy who averages 20/10 for 1 year is the same as a guy who averages 20/10 for 10 years?

Each to his own.

Show me the players. In 1999 id have taken 2 year Duncans 20/10 over 15 years of Karl Malones to that point. those 15 years wouldnt help me in the playoffs would they?

20/10 isnt 20/10. gotta give me the players in question.

[YAWN]

lebron doesn't even sniff my top 40, but i guess we must be looking at these rankings in a different light. I think its insulting to place him above guys like malone, stockton, baylor, west.

[Joey3000]

Blasphemy!!!

[Joey3000]

lebron doesn't even sniff my top 40, but i guess we must be looking at these rankings in a different light. I think its insulting to place him above guys like malone, stockton, baylor, west.


These guys are usually the first to get sh!ted on, than everybody gives them what I call pitty props. For example, they will say stuff like "not to take anything from Malone but.... " or Stockton was great but... "

Stockton has achieved things Lebronze couldn't even dream of.

[Showtime]

20/10 isnt 20/10. gotta give me the players in question.
You would think Zach Randolph would have taught them that by now...

[Lebron23]

These guys are usually the first to get sh!ted on, than everybody gives them what I call pitty props. For example, they will say stuff like "not to take anything from Malone but.... " or Stockton was great but... "

Stockton has achieved things Lebronze couldn't even dream of.

How many Championship Rings?

LeBron still have a chance to win an NBA Finals MVP because he's still playing in the NBA.

Stockton is not even a top 25 players of all time. LeBron at the age of 24 yrs.old is already the reigning NBA MVP.

[Kblaze8855]

The Lakers lost like 3 titles by a combined 4 points. They missed several single shots to win it all. The celtics were godly but not impossible to beat. They won because of Russell.

[Kblaze8855]

I think its insulting to place him above guys like malone, stockton, baylor, west.

John Stocktons mother doesnt think he was better than Lebron.

[bdreason]

You mean 'to each his own'. Good attempt though. :oldlol:


It means the same thing, moron. Good contribution though.

And I feel bad for anyone who doesn't take longevity into account. It shows a lack of strong values... but it's pretty common with the youth these days.

It's a "what have you done for me lately" society we live in. Did I get that one right, mustard? :oldlol:

[All Net]

How many Championship Rings?

LeBron still have a chance to win an NBA Finals MVP because he's still playing in the NBA.

Stockton is not even a top 25 players of all time. LeBron at the age of 24 yrs.old is already the reigning NBA MVP.

More reason for him to start making more finals appearences and giving him a chance to win some titles. Think it may be a few more years until he does this.

[Fatal9]

....

You said specifically you'd take Lebron because he's more consistent "night in night out". Team success doesn't even matter here, look at the numbers and it's clear that Kobe has been the more consistent player.

Lebron's series averages since 2006:

36/8/6 on 51% (worst defense in playoffs)
27/8/6 on 44%
28/9/7 on 42%
25/7/8 on 42%
26/9/9 on 45%
22/7/7 on 36%
30/9/8 on 48% (worst defense in playoffs)
27/6/8 on 35%
32/11/8 on 51%
34/8/6 on 56%
39/8/8 on 49%


How is that more consistent than Kobe?? Kobe has two series where he shot below 45% and none below 40%.

Kobe's series averages since 2006:

28/6/5 on 50%
33/5/4 on 46%
34/5/6 on 50%
33/7/7 on 49%
29/6/4 on 54% (against the same team that shut down Lebron a year ago)
26/5/5 on 41%
27/6/5 on 47%
27/5/4 on 45%
34/6/6 on 48%
32/7/6 on 43%

Up until this year, Lebron's individual playoff numbers were a joke. Think he shot like 41% for a two year stretch in them. Keep in mind that Lebron is a front court player (helps rebounding numbers from position alone, check out his offensive rebounding, it's terrible) and someone who dominates the ball more than anyone else in the league (all time perhaps?). Lebron-ball give the Cavs a limited ceiling...they can be a good team who can beat a couple of weak playoff teams (like the competition they've faced every year in the first two rounds in the East) or otherwise it's first round exit every year in the West. So while he can put up these assists numbers playing Lebron-ball, it doesn't help the team at all. Only way they can win is to get off that system, and it became clear this year especially (just watch, he is not winning sh*t if he keeps averaging 8 rebs and 8 assts on his teams). The Lakers system is the complete opposite. Pretty sure Kobe averaged career high in assists when he played briefly outside the triangle even though he was injured and in bad shape (with a scandal looming over him) all of that year.

And you want to talk about teams allergic to defense, then what were those Wizards teams? Suns were not as bad as you make them see, and Wizards were the worst defensive team in the playoffs every year they got in.

[Kblaze8855]

For one....didnt you say last 4 years? What was 06? And how is that setup? Going back or is 07 the first one?



Im not about to go do an extensive search at the moment since im at work but after a brief glance at what I looked up in an old topic(On Ben Gordons number of off nights)...

Kobe had at least 24 games of under 40% shooting last year and I dont think the season had ended at the time. Ben Gordon at the time had 21. Lebron had 8. Lebrons style of play just isnt gonna produce as many bad nights as Kobes. Kobe takes bad shots compared to Lebron. Is that even up for debate?


And what are you even showing me there? Does that paint a picture of a superior Kobe? Lebron probably has the 3 best series you posted. then one of Kobes is 4th...and another of Lebrons 5th. Even with the couple bad ones it reads like a Jordan list. and 8 of Kobes are on a vastly superior team. If Lebron had Gasol, Odom, and Bynum can you see him needing to take the shots he does? Lebron on the Lakers might literally shoot 55% as he currently is.

As I said I would trade the whols Cavs roster outside Lebron these last few years for Gasol alone. better offensive teams lead to less bad shots for everyone involved. Of course the vastly(vastly....) superior teammates factor in. And even with them im not seeing Kobe playing better.

[iamgine]

I just realized last season Lebron had the best ever PER in NBA history BOTH in regular season and in playoff. :applause:

[raptorfan_dr07]

Gotta love how all the Kobe fans(Fatal9, Barbaroi, etc,) are pissed at Kblaze because he said he would consider taking Lebron to start a franchise over Kobe, as well as some other stuff. Yet when Kblaze made his threads about his Kobe video and the one about how people should stop bringing MJ up every day, they were all over him. :rolleyes:

Great video, as usual. Keep up the good work and ignore the idiots.

[dyna]

I think the list changed a number of times. I wasnt paying the closest attention.there is a perfectly reasonable case to be made for Kobe over everyone I put Lebron over. though id rather have Lebron. Lebron is unstoppable because of things that dont vary with how hot he is. When his jumper doesnt fall he can still get to the basket every single time he tries.

Lebron having a terrible game means hes missing layups. Lebron bad games are flukey. Kobe bad games are because he takes some of the toughest shots in NBA history and nobody can make them all the time. Lebron is a more night in night out threat to play near his peak potential I think.

Kobe is amazing for his ability to make difficult shots. Lebron is amazing for his ability to not need to take a difficult shot.
:bowdown:

Great Thread!!!!
:cheers:

[dyna]

Gotta love how all the Kobe fans(Fatal9, Barbaroi, etc,) are pissed at Kblaze because he said he would consider taking Lebron to start a franchise over Kobe, as well as some other stuff. Yet when Kblaze made his threads about his Kobe video and the one about how people should stop bringing MJ up every day, they were all over him. :rolleyes:

Great video, as usual. Keep up the good work and ignore the idiots.
:roll:

[checkman]

i honestly think kblaze was on point

except for the dwade comment that's about it tho

[Rojogaqu11]

Props to Kblaze. I always enjoy the quality of his videos and posts.

I am a Lakers fan, and a Kobe fan too, but I agree on the assessment that Lebron is a better pick than Kobe because of his physical dominance along with his skills. Kobe maybe the more "skilled" player, and Lebron may not be able to do those left-handed turn around spin fade away three pointers out of bounds that Kobe has done, but who cares. You take the player that has the less trouble to score in a more realistic scenario. That's why players like Shaq are dominant without having to fade away, crossover, or shoot outside of 10 feet from the basket.

I tell you I don't want the Cavs to win anything because I want the Lakers (and Kobe too) to keep on winning. But I still consider Lebron a player with the greater potential, and if Lebron starts winning and putting legendary performances, I will just have to sit down and appreciate how great Lebron is/will be.

[HighFlyer23]

I just realized last season Lebron had the best ever PER in NBA history BOTH in regular season and in playoff. :applause:

which should tell you that PER is a garbage stat

[AlThornton]

which should tell you that PER is a garbage stat

top 5 in PER this past season?

LeBron
Wade
Paul
Howard
Duncan

5 of the best players in basketball, not much argument right? Not a garbage stat.

[andgar923]

which should tell you that PER is a garbage stat
PER isn't a garbage stat, and I don't think any stat is garbage (that I can think of). They are however, tools one can use to measure a player's performance and consistency.

They aren't the ultimate decider, but they are something that help lead to a decision.

[Jacks3]

These 15 players I think you can say were better than Lebron and not get much argument:

Bob Petitt
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Moses
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Baylor
West
Oscar

*Id throw Isiah in there but many people wouldnt.*

.
lol at Baylor/West/Oscar being on this list but not Kobe. What a joke. :oldlol:

[magnax1]

You take away the MVP, you look at the wins, and then Lebron Doesn't look so good. Hes been to the Finals once, and played horrifically, he got to the conference finals and lifted his play, but none the less did not get his team mates involved and lost the series, even though they had proven they were the better team. Hes lead some average teams farther than they should go, but not a top 20 player in any way.
Now lets look at a guy like Wade, who Is definitely not top 20 player. He comes to a team, that was only 20 someive wins (though you cant give all the credit to wade, because Butler and Odom probably had more to do with the regular season wins than Wade) brings the team to 42 wins, sends the Heat to the second round, and then Wins 2 games against a 60 win team. Then the next year he raises his play to an All NBA level when Shaq comes along. Then the next year they go to the finals, where Wade actually raises his level of play by a large margin and won the championship. Then two years later, he come back from an injury, and leads a 15 win team, with only Beasley added, to 43 wins. He is definitely better than Lebron.

[Joey3000]

Well if Lebron is a top 20 player of all time... Than Wade is top 19.

He has accomplished more than Bron and his numbers are just as good. Yeah Bron has a MVP title, but wade has a Finals MVP.

[Kblaze8855]

As do paul pierce, jojo White, Billups, Cornbread, worthy, Tony Parker, and Joe Dumars. **** John Starks has one if not for Hakeems pinky getting on that shot in game 6. Finals MVPs are more likely than regular season MVPs to be less than all time great because you have to have a great team to get one. And you can win it with one or two good games. A single good matchup in a series can win a finals MVP.

You will never see a guy like Maxwell win a real MVP. The title is relevant. The finals MVP is....something. But on average id say its a lesser player than the actual MVP. There are finals MVPs who put up 12/9 i nthe playoffs and 11/8 in the regular season. And its not even one of the guys I mentioned above. And other guy(Unseld) won one waaaay past his prime years past his last all star game as an 8/12 player on a fantastic team.

You have to be a key player on a good team to be finals MVP. You gnerally have to be exceptional to be a real MVP.

[Joey3000]

As do paul pierce, jojo White, Billups, Cornbread, worthy, Tony Parker, and Joe Dumars. **** John Starks has one if not for Hakeems pinky getting on that shot in game 6. Finals MVPs are more likely than regular season MVPs to be less than all time great because you have to have a great team to get one. And you can win it with one or two good games. A single good matchup in a series can win a finals MVP.

You will never see a guy like Maxwell win a real MVP. The title is relevant. The finals MVP is....something. But on average id say its a lesser player than the actual MVP. There are finals MVPs who put up 12/9 i nthe playoffs and 11/8 in the regular season. And its not even one of the guys I mentioned above. And other guy(Unseld) won one waaaay past his prime years past his last all star game as an 8/12 player on a fantastic team.

You have to be a key player on a good team to be finals MVP. You gnerally have to be exceptional to be a real MVP.


True, but wades finals MVP was not a "right place at the right time" situation. He carried that team, he dominated that series in ways that few swingman in history have been able to.

Infact, compare wades Finals MVP numbers to anyone in history... and you tell me...

[Kblaze8855]

I dont include Wade on the "Not all that great..." finals MVP list. He earned it. 100%. He was Jordan like that series. Im just saying that a finals MVP in and of itself doesnt make you greater than those without it. at least not in the way an MVP(usually...) does.

[Kblaze8855]

Also...Wade last year was as good as or better than the MVP was in at least 5 seasons of the last 15.

[Da_Realist]

Also...Wade last year was as good as or better than the MVP was in at least 5 seasons of the last 15.

Which five? I don't disagree...just curious.

[Joey3000]

Which five? I don't disagree...just curious.


I'm sure it would include Nash's MVPs. That... I would agree with

[ElBronco]

Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...

[guy]

Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...

Wow. Pippen? Kidd? Webber? Gervin? Even picking guys like Isiah and KG is a bit crazy. I hope you're not talking about prime, and you're talking about careers. When you say you would take them ahead of him, you don't mean to start a team right?

[andgar923]

Kblaze, I think you're asking the question backwards. It's not "What did any of these(the players you threw into the dirt) guys do that Lebron didn't?" It's "What has Lebron done that any of those guys haven't?" And until he wins a ring(as the best player on his team) that's how the question should stay.

Look, I like Lebron, I think he's a good kid(although a bit egotistical, but who wouldn't be with his level of sucess so far?) and I seriously hope he does win a ring as the best player on a team because if he doesn't, well, let's just say that the media's been hyping him since day 1. And if he doesn't deliver, everyone will blame him, even though it was the media who constantly force fed him down everyone's throat, saying he's the next Michael, that's all they care about, a story.

And if he doesn't win in the next 6 years(6 chances left) Then he will probably move down to second best player on a team. And if that happens, I really really really hope he does win a ring. Because not winning your whole carrer sucks for a great player.

The guy is 6'9 and 260 yet he has no post game. And if you say that is because he is a perimeter player then you have to know he has a poor mid range game(Spurs 07 finals trapping pick and roll).

And if you want to say that Oscar was a product of his era than I have two words for you.

Hand Checking. That's the reason Lebron is so dominate now. He is a great player, but not yet top 25, these are the guys I would take ahead of him off the top of my head, not in order.

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


That's 25 and I'm missing some I'm sure. Again, I like the guy and I think he is great, but he has a long way to go...
Nice way to look at it.

Didn't go through the list you provided, but your reasoning makes sense.

[lilgodfather1]

Wow. Pippen? Kidd? Webber? Gervin? Even picking guys like Isiah and KG is a bit crazy. I hope you're not talking about prime, and you're talking about careers. When you say you would take them ahead of him, you don't mean to start a team right?
It's not his fault. It is like KBlaze said I guess. We are not ready to call a 24 year old top 20.

[eliteballer]

First of all, LeBron is neither taller or heavier than Malone. You get on Malone's lack of clutch ability and his game not being conducive to creating shots late, but he was actually a better shooter than LeBron when he won his MVP's, and LeBron has absolutely stunk it up against the two best teams he faced in the playoffs(Spurs, Celtics) because of his lack of ability to shot. Dude got swept on the Finals and lost on a 66 win team with homecourt.

You also talk about LeBron not needing to take tough shots...yet hes never shot better than 49% in a season and his lack of ability to score because of a lack of dribble creativity and shooting ability when his drives are cut off make him have to take tough shots(for him) meaning jumpers...

[Kblaze8855]

Wade is equal to or better than Nash, Dirk, Malone, Iverson and probably right there with Kobe and maybe Garnett in 04. None of them were just a mile beyond Wade as players. due partly to teams they had more MVP worthy seasons I suppose. But Wade is without a doubt one of the greatest players of all time and currently better than a number of the top 50 as of 97. I loved Clyde drexler but he wasnt better than Wade. Nor was Nique(who should have been top 50). Or Stockton. Gary PAyton wasnt top 50 but hes a HOF player...not better than Wade. Wade like Lebron and Kobe is top 40, maybe top 30, and would get taken over some of the top 20 if people want to be honest with themselves about the word "Best".

Elite....ive seen Malone listed anywhere from 6'8'' to 9...and 250-270. about the same as Lebron or less depending on when in his career you mean.

And what is "He never shot over 49%" even saying? A swingman shooting 49% isnt enough?

And while Lebron lost with a 66 win team hes yet to pull a Malone and lose with a 60 win team in the first round. Or multiple 50 win teams in the first. Karl Malone did not have it in him to take over a game like the one vs the Pistons where he scored 31 of the last 33 and just rained jumpers from everywhere. EH wasnt a "Give him the ball and get out of the way" scorer you could rely on like that. Which is why Stockton was often the closer. Not that you didnt know that....


As for this:

Magic
Jordan
Bird
Chamberlain
Russel
Abdul Jabbar
Mosses
Barkley
Dr. J
Oscar
West
Walton
Gervin
Isiah
Shaq
Kobe
Pippen
Malone
Ewing
Robinson
Olajuwan
Duncan
Kidd
Webber
Garnett


The mere fact you list Chris Webber, Kidd, and Pippen makes my point for me. chris Webber did nothing....NOTHING to justify any ranking Lebron doesnt. He won less, had worse numbers, less elite seasons in a career than Lebron has at 24(00-03...thats it) had worse playoff success, was hurt a lot more, and is known as among the greatest chokers of all time(partly due to the NCAa but the fact remains..he is). Jason Kidd was never as highly regarded as Lebron. Even when he got MVP talk. He was never Lebron. He wasnt a guy people were gonna call the best player on earth. Pippen is my second favorite player ever....he showed a lot in 94 and 95 without MJ. But he sure as hell isnt just better than Lebron.

And Lebron doesnt have to do anything others did to be better than them. Doesnt matter how the question is posed really. Matters how good a player you are. And a lot of these guys just arent better. Emotion and respect might not lead some to say so but fact is...Lebron is better than most everyone to evr play basketball. We really gonna pretend that Lebron on the Royals in place of Oscar Robertson makes them worse? Oscar robertson led average to pretty good teams...led them nowhere...had literally nothing as a teams best player to build his legacy on but stats...much of the league considered him arrogant and ive read players quoted saying West was far better because he was a good teammate.

But im to act like Oscar just blows him away because.........of....what?

Give me a reason oscar robertson was better than Lebron. Its not an era thing either. Bill Russell? wilt? fine. No argument here.

What did Oscar robertson do? Did he win as much in the regular season even when he had a HOF bigman in Lucas? No. Did he win as much in the playoffs? No. Did he do anything Lebron didnt with the exception of the more rebounds and assists in a league teams were scoring 115-120 a game? No. was he a better shooter? Do you have evidence of him being a better defender? shot blocker? Can you name the games he took over? I can think of a couple...but I didnt see them fully.

Can you actually give me one speck of justificaiton for Oscar robertson being better on the floor than Lebron James...other than it just sounding right?

And im not even saying Lebron SHOULD be over robertson. Im not even saying I would rank Lebron top 15 all time as I would Oscar. But I dont think one person here can give me a reason Oscar is better than Lebron that wouldnt justify Lebron being better than chris webber or half the others you listed there.

Im just saying that a lot of the time we let reasoning go out the window in favor of the simple popular opinion and emotions.

Dont like to see a young guy next to Oscar, Baylor, and Karl Malone. But the fact is...none of them did a single thing as a teams best player he didnt. And plenty of people who did....you are flat out lying if you tell me you would start a team with them before Lebron.

The guy is good. Great. All time great. nearly all time elite.

Emotion and what "feels right" shouldnt stand in the way of reality. We arent talking about Lebron vs Bill Russell. A guy who won all but 2 elimination games of any kind(HS, NCAA, Olympic, or NBA) in his life. We are talking Lebron vs a bunch of guys who did nothing he didnt and in many cases were factually inferior for reasons ranging from era, to health, or just individual dominance.

Why should one guy be called better than someone when he just....isnt. Especially when you cant even list things the "better" guy did that the worse guy didnt. We are ranking a superior player...behind worse ones...who didnt even accomplish anything he didnt. Cant eve nsay "Well ___ led his team to the title" in most of these cases.

Its little more than emotion and what "feels right" in some of these comparisons.

[Da_Realist]

Kblaze, who are your top 5 favorite players? You mentioned Pippen was #2, I thought MJ and Bird were your two favorites...but maybe I misread something you wrote. Thanks.

[Kblaze8855]

Scottie gets my #2 because he was a Bull. My top 5 if I disregard my fanhood is something like:

Jordan
Bird
Pippen
Magic
Hakeem

Isiah in there somewhere. Shaq as well. Duncan next tier.

But really...my favorites period?

1.Jordan
2.Pippen
3.Gervin. I was at like....20 Bulls games in 86 and he was my favorite player then...and the second nicest NBA player I ever met after:
4.BJ Armstrong. Nicest athlete ive spoken to. Really easy to root for.
5.Bird

[Da_Realist]

Scottie gets my #2 because he was a Bull. My top 5 if I disregard my fanhood is something like:

Jordan
Bird
Pippen
Magic
Hakeem

Isiah in there somewhere. Shaq as well. Duncan next tier.

But really...my favorites period?

1.Jordan
2.Pippen
3.Gervin. I was at like....20 Bulls games in 86 and he was my favorite player then...and the second nicest NBA player I ever met after:
4.BJ Armstrong. Nicest athlete ive spoken to. Really easy to root for.
5.Bird

Thanks. Glad to see someone besides die-hard Pistons fans giving Isiah props. I always felt like he was sort of disregarded because so many people didn't like him. I've heard greats like Jerry West say they thought Dumars was better. And since his retirement, he's been pushed a little bit further down most people's list than I think he should be. He was a hell of a competitor who willingly changed his game from offensive showman to win championships in the same era that MJ, Magic and Bird were all playing at or near the top of their abilities.

[magnax1]

Wade is equal to or better than Nash, Dirk, Malone, Iverson and probably right there with Kobe and maybe Garnett in 04. None of them were just a mile beyond Wade as players. due partly to teams they had more MVP worthy seasons I suppose. But Wade is without a doubt one of the greatest players of all time and currently better than a number of the top 50 as of 97. I loved Clyde drexler but he wasnt better than Wade. Nor was Nique(who should have been top 50). Or Stockton. Gary PAyton wasnt top 50 but hes a HOF player...not better than Wade. Wade like Lebron and Kobe is top 40, maybe top 30, and would get taken over some of the top 20 if people want to be honest with themselves about the word "Best".

Elite....ive seen Malone listed anywhere from 6'8'' to 9...and 250-270. about the same as Lebron or less depending on when in his career you mean.

And what is "He never shot over 49%" even saying? A swingman shooting 49% isnt enough?

And while Lebron lost with a 66 win team hes yet to pull a Malone and lose with a 60 win team in the first round. Or multiple 50 win teams in the first. Karl Malone did not have it in him to take over a game like the one vs the Pistons where he scored 31 of the last 33 and just rained jumpers from everywhere. EH wasnt a "Give him the ball and get out of the way" scorer you could rely on like that. Which is why Stockton was often the closer. Not that you didnt know that....

Jeeze, you really hate Malone for some reason, He obviously wasn't clutch, and the only real problem I've ever had with Sloans coaching was giving him the ball in the last minutes to much (And still playing kirilenko, but...... I just plain hate Kirilenko) but every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs) Also I find it hard to believe that Lebron is really as big as Malone......just look at them
http://johnjohnsaidit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/karl-malone.jpg

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0706/gallery.nba.lebron.james.action/images/lebron-james-2009-01-23.jpg

.... Is it really even possible? I'm guessing Malone was in the low 280's, Lebrons looks like hes in the low 260's. You can't really trust the listings.

[inclinerator]

maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280

[Lebron23]

maybe lebron had bigger legs dunno or maybe malone is 270-280


They never updated the height and weight listing on Basketball Reference.com, and NBA.com

LeBron was already 245 lbs. in his rookie season.

[Kblaze8855]

every time the Jazz lost they lost to a better team, (except maybe 95 rockets, and 01 Mavs, but thats only 2 outs like 18 straight stockton Malone playoffs)

Nah. I only checked until 92 and I found 3 years already that they lost to a team with a worse record. And then they lose in the first round with a 61 win team in 95. They had a better record than the Blazers too. And the Mavs you mentioned. he lost in the first round with 6 teams that won 47-61 games.

And LebronI think they said was 6'9'' 278 at his biggest last year. Malone supposed to be 250-265 pounds. Id buy 270+ as well. Depends on when. He played a long time and in 20 years your weight is gonna change. Lebron is at least the size of late 80s early 90s Malone.

[lilgodfather1]

Thank you KBlaze for building such a great case here. The same can be said about Wade for most players to, but Wade is not as indiidually spectacular as LeBron is. There are very few players that I would take over LeBron to start a franchise.

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Russell
Magic maybe
KAJ

and I feel like I may have left out one. That is it that you can honestly say you would take over LeBron James to start a team with.

[RedZiggyZag]

KBlaze, How do you feel about Bill Russell, people constantly call him overrated because of his lack of offensive game, Tell me how you feel about him.

[Kblaze8855]

I'll copy something I said a while back


Bill Russell was the best player on 11 title teams. This guy won 8 titles in a row. He got 30 rebounds or more the last 3 games of the 59 finals. In game 7 of the 60 finals he had 22 points and 35 rebounds. He had 30 points and 38 rebounds to close out the 61 finals. He had 30 points and 40(yes...40) rebounds in the OT game 7 win vs the Lakers in the 62 finals. He was just under a triple double to close out the 63 finals with 12/24/9 assists. In 65 he had 22 points and 30 rebounds to win the title also setting the finals record for shooting percentage over 70%. Next year? Game 7....2 point win...25 points...32 rebounds. He had 26 rebounds/6 assists in the last game of his career. A game 7 win on the road. In 11 win or go home final games of a tied series of any kind...hes 11-0. the guy only lost two playoff series of any kind from age 15 to 35 and he was injured and out in one of them(second season in the finals). HS titles. 2 NCAA titles. Gold medal. 11 NBA titles. **** he even COACHED two of the teams to NBA titles.

Bill Russell is likely the greatest and most consistient big game player in basketball history and the crazy thing is his greatest impact cant even be measured. And he did it all in a town that by most accounts didnt even respect him. Break into the mans house because he moved into a white neighborhod. Pathetic.

Bill russell went hard for 20 years winning at a rate never seen before or since.

[Fatal9]

Kobe had at least 24 games of under 40% shooting last year and I dont think the season had ended at the time. Ben Gordon at the time had 21. Lebron had 8. Lebrons style of play just isnt gonna produce as many bad nights as Kobes. Kobe takes bad shots compared to Lebron. Is that even up for debate?
Last 4 years in playoffs over nearly the same # of games, Lebron has 20 games under 40% shooting (a third of all games he has played!) while Kobe has 15. If that's your measure of consistency then it's not proving anything. Kobe's shot selection tightens up in the playoffs by the way. Lebron's flaky jumper makes him prone to just as many bad shooting nights. The 2% difference in their FG% can pretty much be accounted by Lebron getting more fast break dunks (younger, quicker so he can get those steals), but in a half court setting? I bet their efficiency is identical.

It's just funny that you keep West/Baylor on the list and take Kobe off...makes no sense.

[Kblaze8855]

You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.

[raptorfan_dr07]

You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.

:bowdown: :cheers: Love how the morons(CantStop/Megatron, Fatal9, Alpha Wolf, etc.) can't respond to this. Awesome post.

[barbaroi]

You speak of consistency while disregarding the largest sample size in favor of matchups that represent what a guy does for a matter of weeks(or in Kobes case sometimes one week)? The playoffs matter more but when we are comparing players vs two totally different groups of opponents(with 2 exceptions) on very different teams? In the playoffs a team can focus all it has on one player depending on what his teammates can do to make the mpay. You know in game 7 vs the Pistons in 06 Lebron scored himself or assisted on all but 7 shots the Cavs made? The entire team aside from him managed to get 7 shots into the basket. We have seen in the playoffs Lebron(and Kobe on occasion) get doubled all game just daring the others to win the game. Lebron next game after he scored the 29 in a row was as doubled as any non bigman ive ever seen. Kobe got some right across halfcourt doubles vs the suns. Teams totally change how they play a guy in the playoffs over 6-7 games. Its not an accurate idea of what a guy does night in night out in the NBA.

In 08 Kobe shot under 40% 30 times. 24 in 07. 26 in 06. He managed it 23 times in just 66 games in 05 while Lebron coming into the season at age 19 did it 13 times in 80 games. Kobe damn near doubled him up in fewer games.

Lebron had 13 this year, 17 in 08, 29 in 07 and 18 in 06 . The only year he surpassed Kobe he played 20 playoff games to get there while Kobe went out in the first round(Kobe played an extra 7 this year.). And in 06 Kobe is out first round while Lebron plays 13 playoff games and still cant catch up.

I dont even see how this is an argument. We all see how they play. Kobes game is based on his jumper falling. As good as he is you just cant rely on that the way you can Lebron getting to the basket.

And thats not even the entire reason id rather have Lebron.

I dont see much of a reason to go with Kobe really.Lebron has been roughly as good or a better defender for 2 years. Hes a better passer(not to be confused with just getting assists). Ive heard little drama and few claims of him being difficult with teammates. Worst ive heard of Lebron was Gooden jokingly saying that in Chicago they share the ball. Then as he got the ball more he started to suck...Bulls fans hated him...and he ends up on the Spurs(5th team in 7 years) getting 8 minutes total over 2 playoff games.....anyway. Kobe is better at making difficult shots but I dont value the making of bad shots over the making of easy ones when I can rely on those shots. Not talking about a Dwight easy shot like a dunk that you cant really predict. You can give Lebron the ball...move out of his way...and he will score or get fouled at a fantastic rate. Its almost a lock.

hes the most individually dominant and unstoppable swingman ive seen since Jordan in his youth and if he isnt...Wade is. I can see someone saying Kobe is better or more skilled but not more effective.

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league. Wade won it all on a team with less than Kobe had to work with. And Lebron led a finals team that had no more talent than the ones Kobe missed the playoffs with and lost in the first round. The only player aside from Bron on the Cavs 07 roster id even take on the Bulls right now(in 07 form even) is Z. Gibson when thej umper is falling but really...hes the Bulls #3 guard at best.

The Cavs team he took to the finals was simply abominable(by finals team standards). Really....would you rather have the entire 07 Cavs supporting cast or just the second best player from any finals team of the last 5 years?

Gasol
Pierce
Lewis
Parker
Howard
Billups/Ben Wallace
Shaq/Kobe(questionable by 2004)


Josh Howard is the only second option id even consider trading for their whole 07 roster...and id end up saying no just to dodge Larry Hughes. Larry Hughes managed to shoot 31 and 35% in back to back playoffs....

Lebron did work with a lottery team. And he just led another one to the most wins ever by a team with nearly that little talent to work with. Dirk didnt have a huge amount but give me Howard and terry over the entire Cavs roster. They arent even talented on defense as some claim. Ben Wallace is pushing 60 and anderson is a talented defender as is West but really...they more talented on D than the Bulls with Hinrich, Hunter, Tyrus, Deng, and Noah? More than the Bobcats were with Wallace, Emeka, and Raja?

The Cavs arent expecially good at anything but giving the ball to Lebron to win them games.

That hes done what he has wit hthose teams gives me little reason to doubt he could win with almost anything I give him to work with. A guy who can get to the basket as if nothing is in his way is always easy to build around. Give him 2 shooters and 2 bigmen who can catch and you can win games.

Lebron just seems like a far better pick to start a team...even throwing out age.
I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.

[lilgodfather1]

I'm not going to go point by point to debate you; I'm just going to disagree with a few things I read.

You use FG% to argue that Lebron is a more consistent performer. FG% is a flawed stat. It takes into account neither 3PA nor FT%. Since Kobe has taken more 3's than Lebron every year but the last, and not by a small amount, his FG% is naturally going to be lower. Kobe averaged over 5 3PA per game 4 of the last 5 years and one of those years he averaged over 6. Lebron has never averaged over 5. Since Kobe's FT% has been and is significantly better than Lebron's he gets more out of his trips to the line. If you use TS% which takes into account FT% and 3PA, Kobe has been the more efficient player 4 of the 6 years Lebron has been in the league.

The second point I'd like to argue is that Lebron had little better than "lottery worthy" talent last year. Mo Williams put up 18/3/4 on 47% last year. Delonte west was an extremely good defender as well as putting up 12/3/4 on 46%. Ilgauskas, while too slow to gaurd more mobile centers, still put up 13/8. These aren't trash players. Andy is little more than a glorified hustle player to my mind but he is a good post defender. The idea that Lebron has no talent on his team is ridiculous. His team won 66 games for a reason. Mike brown has an excellent defensive scheme and a good collection of talent to work with. If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

As to the rest I haven't got time to deal with it now maybe another time.
I'm not so sure about last years Cavs being better than lottery. The 2008 Bucks lead by Mo Williams had a season of 34 and 48 and failed to make the playoffs. That Bukcs roster if you look at it was very similar, no scratch that probably better than the Cavs roster outside of james. They have a similar C in Bogut, a much better wing player in Redd, Mo was slightly better last year then the year before, and CV was a player that we Cavs fans were praying for this season. The Bucks roster probably was more talented then the Cavs, and they only won 34 games.

[Kblaze8855]

I already said Kobe takes a lot more difficult shots. Threes being an example. And even last year with Bron taking more he still shot better. Besides taking 3s leading to a lot more misses isnt a positive thing for Kobe. If anything its evidence of his less reliable offense. The worse shots you take the less I can depend on you to make them.

And what is almost winning without the starters? You win or you dont. And if they had won...it wouldnt prove anything. Any 12 NBA player can win any game. Even the bad players would produce on a bad enough team.

The Cavs were simply terrible compared to most teams to win at nearly the rate they did, Who has won 66 games? The Lakers now, the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, the Mavs, Jordans Bulls, showtime, The 80s celtics, the 72 Lakers, the 67 78ers, The Cowens/Hondo/Jojo Celtics...maybe Kareems team with Oscar. Great...GREAT teams. The Cavs supporting cast is a joke compared to all but one team I can think of to approach their level of wins and thats the 07 Mavs...and id take Howard/Terry/Stackhouse/Harris over the Cavs lineup 9 of 10 times.

[IInvented]

you did not type all that shit

[v-unit]

J.Cole :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

"Now I was dreamin' for a deal at the age of 13..."

"I was like a young Simba couldn't wait to be king"

Lupe

"Look up in the skyyyyyyy"

[Mikaiel]

If you'd like to dispute that I'll point you to the last game of the season, when they sat out Mo Williams, Lebron, Big Z, and Ben Wallace and STILL almost managed to beat the 76er's, a playoff team.

Just one game ...

It was an anomally.

Darnell Jackson played 42 minutes. Lorenzen Wright played 35 minutes. Jawad Williams played as much as Varejao (10 minutes). Sasha Pavlovic and Wally Szcerbiak played more than 40 minutes. Do you really think those guys are good ????? It was a miracle that the game was even close.

[Kblaze8855]

I should have waited and used ross on a bron video now. Its just begging to be done....

[Round Mound]

Barkley was a better "PURE" Scorer (2-Point FG% will back it up) and Offensive (ORT too) Player than Lebron. Barkley actually had "Lateral Movement and a Monster Post Game". Regarding length that is what Lebron had over Barkley which makes him similar to Karl Malone: who was a fast break catch and finish player, thats it.

[bdreason]

I don't like your logic of "who would you take over LeBron to start a team". That's not how players are ranked all-time. This isn't a fantasy draft.

[bdreason]

Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).

[Carbine]

Also, given his recent history, I wouldn't take James over a few guys who he is perhaps better than (using your logic). All we know about LeBron leading a franchise so far is that he won't win you a championship despite posting huge stats... and after a few years of failing, he'll turn around and shit on your team.

I think I'll take a guy who stays loyal his whole career, but may not be as good (using your logic of ranking guys by who you would start a franchise with).

James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.

[bdreason]

James never had the talent around him to win championships. Seriously, if somehow they won a ring.... that would go down as a greater accomplishment than either Duncan in 03 or Hakeem leading his team. It would be the worst supporting cast to ever help a superstar win.


Then how did they win 60+ games?


Worse than AI's Sixers? Worse than Hakeem's Rockets?

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

His team last year was better than the 94 rockets and 01 sixers. But 06-09? Id take 01 Mutombo over the entire roster Bron aside. Jamison makes a difference....but im not sure he would lead to more winning than having Mutombo to build my D around.

[Jacks3]

Sure he won the title but he did so on the most talented team in the league.
lol. Watch the 09 and 2010 playoff runs. There were several teams with an similar amounts of talent (Nuggets,Magic,08 Nuggets with A.I and Melo, 08 Jazz,Boston). I swear Bryant is the only one who in history who consistently gets knocked for having great supporting casts. :roll:

[Yung D-Will]

Biggest waste of 5 minutes of my life reading complete crap.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldnt say its a "knock" on Kobe. Just a fact that has to be considered.

And you can call it what you will....right now there arent 30 people who did anything he has not. And plenty of those who have are just factually inferior to him at playing basketball. Because hes now hated doesnt change the facts.

He is at 25 a 2 time MVP 4-5 time all nba first teamer who has led a team to the finals. What legacy says about Karl Malone, Barkley, Nique, Drexler, and so on has no bearing on who did what or how well any of them play basketball.

He is right now...the same player people will reference when calling him top 15 years from now and the only thing keeping people from saying it is a lack of foresight and/or lying to themselves.

Barring injury...he could never win it all and hes top 20 all time. And hes been that player for like 4 years.

I said almost this exact same thing of Kobe in 2003(hes currently top 20 if hes ever gonna be top 20) and plenty argued and now if you bring it up there are those who say hes top 10...and was better in 2003 than he is now.

How people fail to see how this works is beyond me. Its the same every single time.

[Court Vision]

Biggest waste of 5 minutes of my life reading complete crap.
Do you even have an argument with reasons why this is crap?

[SinJackal]

Longevity doesnt put the ball i nthe basket. Lebron retires today hes no better than if he plays on the same level for 20 years. Hes the same person. People dont get better in retrospect when they add to their legacy. Unless its a situation like Walton where a guy misses years at a time and is healthy for like 3 seasons ever...fine.

But Lebron vs most of these guys? Not much of a factor.

If that's the case, David Robinson would be rated far higher, since imo his first 6 seasons were superior to LeBron's first 7.

DRob also won 0 rings in those seasons, and only won titles when he got Duncan and deferred the scoring load to him. . .like LBJ will be doing in Miami.

DRob also has 2 rings. . .one of which is arguably best/near best player on the team with Duncan. LBJ, again, has zero.

DRob is ranked what, 25? How can you possibly rank LBJ higher than him right now? Don't tell me that one single playoff series against Hakeem somehow defines his career either, because it doesn't. He still performed well, but just not good enough. LBJ has multiple failure series in the playoffs.

Even if LBJ wins a ring in Miami, he's still behind Robinson in dominating seasons, AND rings (under similar circumstances). If you're going to argue for LBJ using the arguments you are. . .I don't see how you can put him above DRob unless you make arguments for him being rated too low on the all time list too.

[chips93]

its going to be fascinating to see how lebron and wade play together, since both worked off iso plays a lot last year, surely they wont run much iso since neither wade or lebron is a knock down 3pt shooter.

I find it hard to imagine how they will play togehter but as the talking head always seem to say 'great player will figure it out'

But i would point to the 08 olympics where usa had a far superior roster. people say spain play together more often which is overstated because their top player play in the nba and only get together slightly more often the usa does. anyway in that game usa won but it was much closer than the talent disparity suggests it should have been. Lebron works mostly off of isos, wade the same, kobe the same to an extent but at the end of the game even for all of the talent kobe went one on one and won the game for usa, will the same happen for miami, reducing lebron and wade to be spot up shooters at times due to the others style of play.

It seems to me that lebron and wade will have to play a different style of play or become better shooters. it would be a shame if with all the talent this team will have the end up running iso

I havent been following nba basketball for very long, but can anybody point to two ball dominant perimiter players playing together successfully?

[Sarcastic]

I have no problem putting Lebron in the top 20 all time. The problem is that he was supposed to be top 3 and was hopefully gonna make a run at #1. Not possible anymore.

[Kblaze8855]

I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."

[Fatal9]

I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."
You trying to compare Barkley/KJ's Suns, Stockton/Malone's Jazz, Clyde/Kersey/Porter's Blazers, Hakeem/Clyde's Rockets to the trash Lebron faced in '07? Not even remotely the same situation. D-Rob messed up many times, but if he got cupcake conferences like that over and over again, we'd be seeing him leading his team to the finals too.

[Scoooter]

You leave D-Rob alone. He'a a very nice man.

[AirJordan23]

I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."
DRob had better teams but the teams he faced were a lot better than the teams LeBron beat in his "magical" run to the finals. I'm not hating on Bron's run because they overachieved and he was the primary reason but LeBron in the 2009 playoffs was a lot better than he was in 2007. I'd say his 2006 playoff run was also greater than his finals run. Had like 2 gamewinners against the Wiz and took Detroit to 7 games. Remember, I'm strictly talkin' from an individual standpoint. Also, his 2007 run is grossly overrated. They weren't expected to go there. But, look at the teams he faced. .500 Wizards without Arenas and Butler, they were a trash defensive team anyway. The .500 Nets who couldn't get it done for various reasons and a Pistons team that was on the decline ever since Brown left and even more so when Wallace left. That run is grossly overrated.

DRob couldn't get it done as the man, either but he faced much better teams than he did. I'm not saying DRob would have won as the man in LeBron's place because he was a softie who didn't have the mentality to dominate. Always folded under pressure. But, really, 1995 Rockets with Hakeem on fire and team in top form, 1994/6 Jazz with Stockton/Hornacek/Malone and 1993 Suns with MVP Barkley which came to a Barkley gamewinner in game 6 are MUCH better teams than anything LeBron faced. And this is factoring in teams/rosters relative to era.

[Jacks3]

Well, if you're going to rank players purely on how well they played the game of basketball, and ignore things like longevity and accolades, then LBJ is closer top 5 All-Time then top 20 and Kobe has no case for top 10.

[SinJackal]

I went into Drob:

"Drob. see Barkley. 90s Lebron type. He never took his non outstanding team to the finals though. And he had better teams than the 07 Cavs. However...defense considered I wont argue if one wants him over Lebron."

Oh okay. Yeah that makes sense then DRob had crazy good defense, and was just as dominant if not more dominant than LBJ has ever been.



You leave D-Rob alone. He'a a very nice man.

He's my second fav' player ever, after MJ. Very underrated center. I'd never bash the guy. Imo best personality the NBA's ever seen too. Ultimate "good guy".

[LBJ4MVP23]

TTT

[Ne 1]

Does anybody actually read these long soliloquies?

[keepinitreal]

Does anybody actually read these long soliloquies?

5 minutes of troll junk vs 5 minutes of a thought out post:confusedshrug: