If LeBron teams up with Wade, Kobe's legacy can exceed Jordan's

[PleezeBelieve]

I honestly would become a Kobe fan. Dude would seriously have the opportunity to be the GOAT while simultaneously taking a fat shat on LeBron's career in the process.

To think a LeBron would go from a GOAT candidate to piggy-backing Wade's only career team and failing is a rather enticing thought to consider.

And to think Kobe close to his mid-30's could make this a reality is as ironic as it is iconic. A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.

[Brunch@Five]

PB makes a decent point. If Bron and Wade team up, and Kobe wins in the finals against them, it would help his legacy a lot. Part of why Bird and Magic are considered this great is that they played and won against each other. Bird without Magic is only worth half as much.

[lpublic_enemyl]

lol i'm just waiting 4 the pic to show up:lol but anyways it is possible for kobe to get 5 rings but to surpass jordan he's got a long way to go

[PleezeBelieve]

No, I would be a fan of the Cavs team, fan of Kobe, the possible GOAT individually.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I honestly would become a Kobe fan. Dude would seriously have the opportunity to be the GOAT while simultaneously taking a fat shat on LeBron's career in the process.

To think a LeBron would go from a GOAT candidate to piggy-backing Wade's only career team and failing is a rather enticing thought to consider.

And to think Kobe close to his mid-30's could make this a reality is as ironic as it is iconic. A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.
All three have a 0% chance of becoming the top player in league history.

[PleezeBelieve]

GOAT candidates don't piggy-back.

[PleezeBelieve]

All three have a 0% chance of becoming the top player in league history.
Kobe certainly does under this scenario.

[Lebron23]

PB makes a decent point. If Bron and Wade team up, and Kobe wins in the finals against them, it would help his legacy a lot. Part of why Bird and Magic are considered this great is that they played and won against each other. Bird without Magic is only worth half as much.

If Wade and LeBron team up they are arguaby one of the best 1-2 punch in NBA History.

I think they are going to win at least 3 NBA Championships in the next decade because Kobe, Garnett, Pierce, Dirk, Nash, and Duncan are not getting younger anymore.

Kobe needs at least 4 NBA Finals MVP and 4 NBA Regular Season MVP if he wants to be consider as a top 5 greatest player in NBA History.

[HylianNightmare]

Kobe artest Bynum Gasol
Vs
Wade Lebron

kobe's got allot of help

[Lebron23]

Kobe artest Bynum Gasol
Vs
Wade Lebron

kobe's got allot of help


Add Michael Beasley

Basketball is a team sports. Just look how talented the rosters of the Celtics and Lakers in the 1980's.

Nobody's going to criticize Wade and LeBron when they team up together because some of the most successful teams in NBA History have a very talented supporting casts.

[White Mamba]

Kobe needs at least 4 NBA Regular Season MVP if he wants to be consider as a top 5 greatest player in NBA History.

:no:

Regular Season MVP means nothing

[spree43]

IF

Lebron and Wade team up

and IF

Kobe beats them two years running in the finals

Then yeah, it would improve his legacy I'd say

The same way IF
Steve Nash averages 15 assists for the rest of the year
IF
they go 73-9 with the pretty average team they have, winning his 3rd MVP and
IF
they win the title against the stacked lakers/magic/cavs/celtics teams

it will improve his chances of being GOAT PG

A lot of big IFs in both, anyone can post some random IF stuff like this

probably not thread worthy, should have just posted it in one of the many related theads already on the board

[DukeDelonte13]

:no:

Regular Season MVP means nothing


That's a pretty dumb comment. :hammerhead:

[Allstar24]

That's a pretty dumb comment. :hammerhead:
It's not...they don't give it to the best player in the league anymore. They come up with some sh*tty criteria about how it goes to the "best player on the best team". They award the guy who has good teammates over a guy who might be a better player but is stuck on a bad team. Nash winning 2 MVPs over Kobe and Shaq doesn't make him better than those two. And to top it off, the media gets to vote. So the # of regular season MVPs doesn't hold any value when placing players in the all time list.

[2LeTTeRS]

It's not...they don't give it to the best player in the league anymore. They come up with some sh*tty criteria about how it goes to th
e "best player on the best team". They award the guy who has good teammates over a guy who might be a better player but is stuck on a bad team. Nash winning 2 MVPs over Kobe and Shaq doesn't make him better than those two. And to top it off, the media gets to vote. So the # of regular season MVPs doesn't hold any value when placing players in the all time list.

Look at the history of the award, the MVP has never gone to a player on a bad/mediocre team. People who think Kobe deserved the MVP when he had that monster statline and only got 45 wins knows nothing about the history of the MVP award.

[markymark]

I was afraid to read the thread after seeing Kobe, Lebron and Wade in the same title.

[Magic Vinsanity]

Jesus Christ when will people get it into their heads that Jordan is THE greatest of all time and always will be. His legacy will never be matched or surpassed by anybody, even if they come along and are a better and more successful player than MJ, it wont change anything.

MJ is the foundation of greatness, everything else is built upon him. He is the man and always will be.

END OF STORY!

[SoCalMike]

I honestly would become a Kobe fan. Dude would seriously have the opportunity to be the GOAT while simultaneously taking a fat shat on LeBron's career in the process.

To think a LeBron would go from a GOAT candidate to piggy-backing Wade's only career team and failing is a rather enticing thought to consider.

And to think Kobe close to his mid-30's could make this a reality is as ironic as it is iconic. A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.

ever hear of something called the CBA?


:pimp:

[Burgz]

this is a dumb thread

the OP is obviously a Kobe for GOAT fanatic, and is trying to do everything in is power to single handedly make everyone think he is in fact the GOAT

it's a shame he wasnt old enough to watch the REAL GOAT :rolleyes:

and if lebron wants to win a championship and wants to team up with wade, then so be it

[Burgz]

:no:

Regular Season MVP means nothing

that is the dumbest thing ive ever seen on this board

[fos]

I don't see him teaming up with Wade, his ego would get in the way. Think about it... They team up, win some championships and Lebron would always be 1 trophy behind Wade... It'd always be Lebron couldn't win without Wade.

[samballs]

A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.

Kobe, Gasol, Artest, Bynum and Odom are a more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. So the same argument could make Wade or Bron Goat too.

[barbaroi]

Jesus Christ when will people get it into their heads that Jordan is THE greatest of all time and always will be. His legacy will never be matched or surpassed by anybody, even if they come along and are a better and more successful player than MJ, it wont change anything.

MJ is the foundation of greatness, everything else is built upon him. He is the man and always will be.

END OF STORY!
Sorry, but the GOAT title belongs to Kareem. 6x MVP, 6x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, leading scorer of all time, 3rd on the all-time rebounding list, 3rd on the all-time block list. Kareem = goat.

[TheGreatDeraj]

Jesus Christ when will people get it into their heads that Jordan is THE greatest of all time and always will be. His legacy will never be matched or surpassed by anybody, even if they come along and are a better and more successful player than MJ, it wont change anything.

MJ is the foundation of greatness, everything else is built upon him. He is the man and always will be.

END OF STORY!


...And this is why MJ fans are worse than Kobe fans(Yea, I said it) MJ fans are so attached to him and what he did to the game that no matter what happens they just cannot accept that someone might be better than him. Even if someone is better than MJ. MJ is still GOAT.

[Lebron23]

Sorry, but the GOAT title belongs to Kareem. 6x MVP, 6x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, leading scorer of all time, 3rd on the all-time rebounding list, 3rd on the all-time block list. Kareem = goat.


Michael Jordan


6x NBA Champion
5x NBA MVP
6x NBA Finals MVP
10x NBA Scoring Champion
Averaged 30.1 ppg in the regular season
Averaged 33.4 ppg in the playoffs
1992 Olympic Gold Medalist
3x NBA All Star MVP
One of the greatest perimeter defender of all time.

Kareem is the 2nd greatest player of all time.

[BFRESH44]

:oldlol: This logic is beyond lame.

C'mon son.

[barbaroi]

MJ is the 2nd greatest player of all time.
Fixed :D .

Kareem: 25/11/4/3 blks/ 59% TS
Jordan: 30/6/5/2 stls / 57% TS

I'll take Kareem's 20 year career over Jordan's 15 year career any day of the week, especially considering he won just as many titles and more MVP's.

[BFRESH44]

Jordan is the greatest basketball player ever, and every last one of his peers(past of present) acknowledge this.

The end.

[barbaroi]

Why do I need to agree with you? Kareems stats are just as impressive if not moreso than Jordan's because he did it for a longer time. He had just as much success in the postseason. He is in the top 3 of blocks, rebounds, and points scored, the important categories for a big man. And he dominated a decade. What more do you want from him? In my mind he and Jordan are evenly matched with respect to stats and honors, but because Kareem did it for 20 years instead of 15 I've got to give him the edge.

[Disaprine]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm247/jamjackson27/n516036400_1127466_4694.jpg

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww88/Bender175/princeofpeugeot.gif
This

[KAJ=GOAT]

Look at the history of the award, the MVP has never gone to a player on a bad/mediocre team. People who think Kobe deserved the MVP when he had that monster statline and only got 45 wins knows nothing about the history of the MVP award.


You might want to brush up on your history because right now,

you're failing incredibly big.

Like, GINORMOUSLY HUGE FAIL.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Jesus Christ when will people get it into their heads that Jordan is THE greatest of all time and always will be. His legacy will never be matched or surpassed by anybody, even if they come along and are a better and more successful player than MJ, it wont change anything.

MJ is the foundation of greatness, everything else is built upon him. He is the man and always will be.

END OF STORY!


Kareem>>>>Jordan.


Brush up on your history as well if you want to talk about the greatest of all time.

[mackaveli]

dont feed the troll!! your off topic bickering sustains him

[Lebron23]

Kareem>>>>Jordan.


Brush up on your history as well if you want to talk about the greatest of all time.


Just Shut the F*ck up troll.

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.

He had more Finals MVP than Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and he's also the better Finals performer.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Just Shut the F*ck up troll.

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.

He had more Finals MVP than Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and he's also the better Finals performer.


Kareem>>>>>>>>>Jordan

q:how do you get picked behind
Sam Bowie?



a: you just aren't that great to begin with.



6 NBA titles
3 NCAA titles
3 NYC titles

dominance,

at

every

single

level.

[Lebron23]

Kareem>>>>>>>>>Jordan

q:how do you get picked behind
Sam Bowie?



a: you just aren't that great to begin with.



6 NBA titles
3 NCAA titles
3 NYC titles

dominance,

at

every

single

level.


:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:

[KAJ=GOAT]

:oldlol: :roll: :oldlol:


simpletons often laughed when splashed with a dose of reality.


You're bursting at the seams because the truth is coming at you in large quantities.

Last I checked,

6=6
3>1
3>0

Kareem>>>Jordan.
and thats backed by facts, not opinions.

[Samurai Jack]

Kareem>>>>>>>>>Jordan

q:how do you get picked behind
Sam Bowie?



a: you just aren't that great to begin with.



6 NBA titles
3 NCAA titles
3 NYC titles

dominance,

at

every

single

level.
:roll: :roll: :roll:


http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww88/Bender175/princeofpeugeot.gif
wow...

[Lebron23]

We are comparing their NBA Careers.

It's like saying that Manu Ginobili is better than Kareem because he never won an Olympic Gold Medal during his prime.

Jordan was the more successful player in the NBA.

[JayGuevara]

Why do I need to agree with you? Kareems stats are just as impressive if not moreso than Jordan's because he did it for a longer time. He had just as much success in the postseason. He is in the top 3 of blocks, rebounds, and points scored, the important categories for a big man. And he dominated a decade. What more do you want from him? In my mind he and Jordan are evenly matched with respect to stats and honors, but because Kareem did it for 20 years instead of 15 I've got to give him the edge.

I'm not trying to diminish Kareem at all, but both Kareem and Jordan can be slighted with the "couldn't win without _____" cuz obviously neither of em won without Oscar/Magic or Pippen. That doesn't mean **** to me personally, but I know people will say it.

But what sets Jordan apart is that he dominated the league and went against most conventional logic that said you needed a great big man to win in this league. Now obviously that's slightly unfair cuz you can't really diminish Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell, whoever cuz of their size, but Jordan did what was pretty unlikely (not impossible, but not a walk in the park) and won rings without any semblance of a dominant big man.

And of course, even recently damn near all championships have been won by a great big man and a pretty damn good guard/wing, or a great guard/wing and a pretty damn good big. Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, or Kobe and Gasol, Wade and Shaq, KG and Pierce/Ray, Duncan and Parker/Manu. The Pistons in 04 being the exception with a pretty damn good 5, but no truly "dominant" forces at any position. And Hakeem in 94 was pretty much solo.

[EllEffEll]

this is a dumb thread

the OP is obviously a Kobe for GOAT fanatic, and is trying to do everything in is power to single handedly make everyone think he is in fact the GOAT

it's a shame he wasnt old enough to watch the REAL GOAT :rolleyes:

and if lebron wants to win a championship and wants to team up with wade, then so be it

You're missing the entire point of this thread (except for the part about it being dumb). It really has little to do with Kobe or Wade. This is about PB grasping for reasons why LBJ should want to stay in Cleveland.

[SAKOTXA]

If Wade and LeBron team up they are arguaby one of the best 1-2 punch in NBA History.

I think they are going to win at least 3 NBA Championships in the next decade because Kobe, Garnett, Pierce, Dirk, Nash, and Duncan are not getting younger anymore.

Kobe needs at least 4 NBA Finals MVP and 4 NBA Regular Season MVP if he wants to be consider as a top 5 greatest player in NBA History.

Are you ****in kidding me? If kobe wins 4 finals MVPs, that means he will have 7 titles, he will be top 2-3 candidate if not the greatest.

[KAJ=GOAT]

We are comparing their NBA Careers.

It's like saying that Manu Ginobili is better than Kareem because he never won an Olympic Gold Medal during his prime.

Jordan was the more successful player in the NBA.
uh, when you say

GOAT, which means "greatest of all time",

you're talking about an entire body of work that encompasses one level.



Kareem>>>Jordan, even in the NBA.

Kareem was in the finals for half of his career while Jordan was retiring.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I'm not trying to diminish Kareem at all, but both Kareem and Jordan can be slighted with the "couldn't win without _____" cuz obviously neither of em won without Oscar/Magic or Pippen. That doesn't mean **** to me personally, but I know people will say it.

But what sets Jordan apart is that he dominated the league and went against most conventional logic that said you needed a great big man to win in this league. Now obviously that's slightly unfair cuz you can't really diminish Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell, whoever cuz of their size, but Jordan did what was pretty unlikely (not impossible, but not a walk in the park) and won rings without any semblance of a dominant big man.

And of course, even recently damn near all championships have been won by a great big man and a pretty damn good guard/wing, or a great guard/wing and a pretty damn good big. Lakers with Shaq and Kobe, or Kobe and Gasol, Wade and Shaq, KG and Pierce/Ray, Duncan and Parker/Manu. The Pistons in 04 being the exception with a pretty damn good 5, but no truly "dominant" forces at any position. And Hakeem in 94 was pretty much solo.


Kareem played against 37 of the NBAs 50 greatest players.

Jordan played against 14.

Also, Kareem won without Oscar and won without Magic. Neither of those players won without him.

You go on to say Jordan won without a dominant big man.

I guess having the best SF of your time to go along with key role players who fully understood where they stood on the team doesn't make up for having a big man?

I guess having the premier defensive power forward of your era doesn't count as having a dominant big man either.

Don't act like Jordan had scrubs. What he lacked in one department on the team was more than made up for in other areas.

[Lebron23]

Are you ****in kidding me? If kobe wins 4 finals MVPs, that means he will have 7 titles, he will be top 2-3 candidate if not the greatest.


Bob Cousy, John Havlicek and Bill Russell had won NBA more titles than Michael Jordan, but they were not considered as top 5 greatest player in History.

Kobe averaged 15 ppg in the 2000 NBA Finals, and he was not in the same level as Shaq when they won their NBA titles in 2000 and 2001.

He became option 1B when the Lakers won their 3rd NBA Championships in 2002.

[EllEffEll]

The best Kobe will ever get is to be good enough to be the guy that gets to buff Michael Jordan's codpiece.

Number of rings is but a small part of the puzzle and even if (and that is a twelve megaton 'if') Kobe won more rings, the rest of the pieces just are not there. It's not like Kobe is suddenly going to get better than he is right now :wtf:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Bob Cousy, John Havlicek and Bill Russell had won NBA more titles than Michael Jordan, but they were not considered as top 5 greatest player in History.

Kobe averaged 15 ppg in the 2000 NBA Finals, and he was not in the same level as Shaq when they won their NBA titles in 2000 and 2001.

He became option 1B when the Lakers won their 3rd NBA Championships in 2002.

Russell is arguably #1.

[SAKOTXA]

Lol Bob Cousy John Havlicek, you gotta be kidding me. Kobe is a top 10 player right now, maybe at the number 10 spot. If he wins 3 more Championships/Finals MVP's and 3 more regular season MVPs he is a top 3 player, by then he will probably surpass Jordan in points scored in the regular season and playoffs. Also have the most All NBA defensive and All NBA 1st team awards. And when you compare John Havlicek's rings to Kobe's that's when you lose your credibility in this argument, and oh did you know that Bill Russell never won a Finals MVP?

[Lebron23]

Russell is arguably #1.


Bill Russell is the greatest winner in major professional sports.

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time.

[SAKOTXA]

Russell is arguably #1.

Heeel no, maybe top 5, because he was the greatest winner of all time, but no way he is number 1.

[Lebron23]

Lol Bob Cousy John Havlicek, you gotta be kidding me. Kobe is a top 10 player right now, maybe at the number 10 spot. If he wins 3 more Championships/Finals MVP's and 3 more regular season MVPs he is a top 3 player, by then he will probably surpass Jordan in points scored in the regular season and playoffs. Also have the most All NBA defensive and All NBA 1st team awards. And when you compare John Havlicek's rings to Kobe's that's when you lose your credibility in this argument, and oh did you know that Bill Russell never won a Finals MVP?

They started giving the NBA Finals MVP Award in the 1969 NBA Season. Bill Russell retired after the 1969 NBA Season.

[SAKOTXA]

They started giving the NBA Finals MVP Award in the 1969 NBA Season. Bill Russell retired after the 1969 NBA Season.

Oh damn I totally forgot about that one, thank you lol

[Abraham Lincoln]

All fair creedence. How one defines greatness vs. who the top ball player in peak form was can vary.

[JayGuevara]

Kareem played against 37 of the NBAs 50 greatest players.

Jordan played against 14.

Also, Kareem won without Oscar and won without Magic. Neither of those players won without him.

You go on to say Jordan won without a dominant big man.

I guess having the best SF of your time to go along with key role players who fully understood where they stood on the team doesn't make up for having a big man?

I guess having the premier defensive power forward of your era doesn't count as having a dominant big man either.

Don't act like Jordan had scrubs. What he lacked in one department on the team was more than made up for in other areas.

Yes, Kareem had ridiculous longetivity. I don't dispute that. Karl Malone and Jordan also put up very impressive stats when they were old as hell.

I didn't say Jordan won by himself did I? I said he won without a good big man. Which defies conventional logic of winning in the NBA. It's widely accepted that you win with a superstar big man. Am I wrong?

Jesus you people get defensive. I just explained what really sets Jordan apart from other GOAT candidates. I didn't say "makes him better", just "sets him apart"

You people are like the media, pick and choose what words to hear and then fill in the blanks with your own agenda. :rolleyes:

[KAJ=GOAT]

Yes, Kareem had ridiculous longetivity. I don't dispute that. Karl Malone and Jordan also put up very impressive stats when they were old as hell.

I didn't say Jordan won by himself did I? I said he won without a good big man. Which defies conventional logic of winning in the NBA. It's widely accepted that you win with a superstar big man. Am I wrong?

Jesus you people get defensive. I just explained what really sets Jordan apart from other GOAT candidates. I didn't say "makes him better", just "sets him apart"

You people are like the media, pick and choose what words to hear and then fill in the blanks with your own agenda. :rolleyes:


Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman weren't good big men?

lol defensive, no, its about putting the facts on the table.

Did Jordan have an absolute great big man? no,

but the other roles were filled quite nicely to make up for that void.

Deadly 3 point shooters and defensive monsters.

[JayGuevara]

Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman weren't good big men?

lol defensive, no, its about putting the facts on the table.

Did Jordan have an absolute great big man? no,

but the other roles were filled quite nicely to make up for that void.

Deadly 3 point shooters and defensive monsters.

Yes, they were good big men. But were they Shaq (LA or Miami version, starring or supporting), Duncan, Hakeem, KG, etc?

They were much more Rasheed and Big Ben than the aforementioned, correct? And a lot of people view their championship as an double anomaly, as there was no dominant big man, nor legit superstar on that team. Now Jordan was obviously a legit superstar, so I'm not even tryin to compare the Bulls to the 04 Pistons. But Kobe is a legit superstar too, and he didn't win anything without Shaq or Gasol. And Gasol is a star, he was the centerpiece on 50 win Memphis teams, I don't think Horance Grant nor Dennis Rodman could be the focal point on 50 win teams.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Yes, they were good big men. But were they Shaq (LA or Miami version, starring or supporting), Duncan, Hakeem, KG, etc?

They were much more Rasheed and Big Ben than the aforementioned, correct? And a lot of people view their championship as an double anomaly, as there was no dominant big man, nor legit superstar on that team. Now Jordan was obviously a legit superstar, so I'm not even tryin to compare the Bulls to the 04 Pistons. But Kobe is a legit superstar too, and he didn't win anything without Shaq or Gasol. And Gasol is a star, he was the centerpiece on 50 win Memphis teams, I don't think Horance Grant nor Dennis Rodman could be the focal point on 50 win teams.


You didn't ask for all world big men,

you specifically stated, "good".

They filled their role, end of story.


lmao at going from, "he can't win without Shaq" to

"he can't win without Shaq or Gasol".

Either way

4 time champion.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Sorry, but the GOAT title belongs to Kareem. 6x MVP, 6x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, leading scorer of all time, 3rd on the all-time rebounding list, 3rd on the all-time block list. Kareem = goat.

Excpet that your opinion doesn't count for sh*t since you are nothing more than a Kobe fan posing as a Laker fan. This argument has a lot more credibility coming from somone else. I personally view MJ and Kareem as a 1A, 1B type thing. Other people have stated the same in the past. I find it pretty damn hilarious though that the ONLY people who consider Kareem to be the clear cut #1 GOAT are Kobe n*thuggers.


And when you compare John Havlicek's rings to Kobe's that's when you lose your credibility in this argument

Why is that so? Havlicek has 8 rings including one Finals MVP where he averaged 27/6/6 on 48% shooting that year in the playoffs. He's a more proven winner than Kobe. If that's the case, all you Kobe fans need to accept that you lose all credibility when you try to compare Kobe's rings to MJ's. If Havlicek's rings aren't equal to Kobe's(don't see why not since they both only have one as the #1 option), then Kobe's are not equal to MJ's(MJ has six as the #1 guy compared to only 1 for Kobe).

[Roundball_Rock]

But what sets Jordan apart is that he dominated the league and went against most conventional logic that said you needed a great big man to win in this league. Now obviously that's slightly unfair cuz you can't really diminish Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell, whoever cuz of their size, but Jordan did what was pretty unlikely (not impossible, but not a walk in the park) and won rings without any semblance of a dominant big man.


Plus he simply had far inferior "supporting casts" than any other GOAT candidate. He played with only one HOFer and in fact only one of his teammates made an all-star team while playing with him (Pippen in both cases). Compare that to Kareem, who played with Magic, himself a GOAT candidate, Oscar, a possible top 10 all-time player, and others like HOFer Worthy and numerous all-stars. Bird, Wilt, and Russell also had far superior "supporting casts" than Jordan.


Kareem was in the finals for half of his career while Jordan was retiring.

Yeah, and MJ was in it for 40% of his career. That small difference is more than offset by MJ going 6-0 in the finals while Kareem went 6-4.


I guess having the premier defensive power forward of your era doesn't count as having a dominant big man either.


He didn't have Rodman for his first three peat.


Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman weren't good big men?

After Grant left Chicago he was anywhere from only the third best to the fifth best player on his next team. That illustrates Grant's talent level. Compare that to Kareem's stacked squads with Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, et al.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Yeah, and MJ was in it for 40% of his career. That small difference is more than offset by MJ going 6-0 in the finals while Kareem went 6-4.



He didn't have Rodman for his first three peat.



After Grant left Chicago he was anywhere from only the third best to the fifth best player on his next team. That illustrates Grant's talent level. Compare that to Kareem's stacked squads with Magic, Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, et al.

Lol at you dismissing the significance of just getting to the finals for half of your career.

Had he never won a thing in the finals, you might have a point, as it stands,

he won 6 rings.


Again, Jordan did not have a great center, but the gaps were filled very nicely by guys who filled their roles at other positions.

Tit for tat.


Compare that to Kareems stacked squads?

You mean those same stacked squads that never won a finals without him?


ok, whats your point?

They never won when he left, ever again.

Not a coincidence..

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol at you dismissing the significance of just getting to the finals for half of your career.

lol at you acting as if there is a significant difference between getting to the finals 50% or 40% of the time as MJ did. When you look at what they did in the finals then MJ's 6-0 record is far superior to Kareem's 6-4.


Again, Jordan did not have a great center, but the gaps were filled very nicely by guys who filled their roles at other positions.

He never had a hall of famer or even an all-star other than Pippen. It wasn't just a lack of a center.


Compare that to Kareems stacked squads?

You mean those same stacked squads that never won a finals without him?

Magic Johnson retired two years after Kareem. During that time the Lakers had the best record in the NBA one year and made the finals in the other. They did not exactly fall apart when Kareem retired. Moreover, Kareem was a role player during the last two Laker rings. The Bucks sucked without him but the Lakers remained championship contenders without Kareem until Magic's unfortunate early retirement.

[Magic Vinsanity]

Sorry, but the GOAT title belongs to Kareem. 6x MVP, 6x Champion, 2x Finals MVP, leading scorer of all time, 3rd on the all-time rebounding list, 3rd on the all-time block list. Kareem = goat.

Kareem can win as many titles, MVP's, scoring titles etc in the world, he still isnt as legendary and considered as great as Jordan. Jordan is seen as the greatest player of all time, it cant be disputed, it is what it is.


...And this is why MJ fans are worse than Kobe fans(Yea, I said it) MJ fans are so attached to him and what he did to the game that no matter what happens they just cannot accept that someone might be better than him. Even if someone is better than MJ. MJ is still GOAT.

Nice try dipsh*t but I'm not an MJ fan, I'm just not some blind retard who cant see things the way they are.

[KAJ=GOAT]

lol at you acting as if there is a significant difference between getting to the finals 50% or 40% of the time as MJ did. When you look at what they did in the finals then MJ's 6-0 record is far superior to Kareem's 6-4.



He never had a hall of famer or even an all-star other than Pippen. It wasn't just a lack of a center.



Magic Johnson retired two years after Kareem. During that time the Lakers had the best record in the NBA one year and made the finals in the other. They did not exactly fall apart when Kareem retired. Moreover, Kareem was a role player during the last two Laker rings. The Bucks sucked without him but the Lakers remained championship contenders without Kareem until Magic's unfortunate early retirement.

are you really this dense?

its not about who won what in the finals,

just the fact that getting their for half of your career is amazing in itself. How many other players do you know that played half of their career in the the championship game, much less win 6 times?

Here it is in simpler terms,

Just getting to ONE finals is hard enough for any player,

but 10 times in a career?

Think McFly, THINK!



as for the rest, are you going to deny the Bulls role players filled their roles as good as anyone? Or are you going to base this off of name recognition and completely ignore the contributions made?


and finally,

What did Magic, Worthy and everyone else win when Cap left?

Here it is >>> .

Did you see that ?

Me neither.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Kareem can win as many titles, MVP's, scoring titles etc in the world, he still isnt as legendary and considered as great as Jordan. Jordan is seen as the greatest player of all time, it cant be disputed, it is what it is.



Nice try dipsh*t but I'm not an MJ fan, I'm just not some blind retard who cant see things the way they are.


Actually, Kareem isn't that low on the totem pole. Hes above and beyond. A prodigy since he stepped on the court.

Hes accomplished what Jordan has, and more. Knew how to play at an earlier age and showed it. Didn't need one of the largest marketing campaigns ever to be known.

He just is,

the

GOAT.

[Roundball_Rock]

its not about who won what in the finals,

just the fact that getting their for half of your career is amazing in itself. How many other players do you know that played half of their career in the the championship game, much less win 6 times?

That makes no sense. We are to give credit in a player comparison to one player over another because he got to the finals 50% of the time while the other got there "only" 40% of the time yet we are supposed to ignore their results in the finals???


as for the rest, are you going to deny the Bulls role players filled their roles as good as anyone?

The Bulls' third leading scorer in the 97' playoffs averaged 8 ppg. :roll: Are you seriously comparing Horace Grant to James Worthy or Steve Kerr to Byron Scott?


What did Magic, Worthy and everyone else win when Cap left?

Here it is >>> .

Magic retired two years after Kareem. Did the Lakers win every year even with Kareem? Them winning 63 games after Kareem retired and then making the finals the following year shows how stacked that Lakers team was.

[che guevara]

That makes no sense. We are to give credit in a player comparison to one player over another because he got to the finals 50% of the time while the other got there "only" 40% of the time yet we are supposed to ignore their results in the finals???



The Bulls' third leading scorer in the 97' playoffs averaged 8 ppg. :roll: Are you seriously comparing Horace Grant to James Worthy or Steve Kerr to Byron Scott?



Magic retired two years after Kareem. Did the Lakers win every year even with Kareem? Them winning 63 games after Kareem retired and then making the finals the following year shows how stacked that Lakers team was.
It's not like Kareem was still a good player in his last year. He was just a role player for the last 2 of his rings, and by 1989, he was barely more than a scrub. He could barely rebound, was a defensive liability, and only scored 11 ppg. Him leaving might have actually benefited the Lakers. He really should have retired before the 1988-89 season.

[branslowski]

If Wade and LeBron team up they are arguaby one of the best 1-2 punch in NBA History.

I think they are going to win at least 3 NBA Championships in the next decade because Kobe, Garnett, Pierce, Dirk, Nash, and Duncan are not getting younger anymore.

Kobe needs at least 4 NBA Finals MVP and 4 NBA Regular Season MVP if he wants to be consider as a top 5 greatest player in NBA History.

Ummm, I disagree with this....I mean, Bird doesn't have 4 Championships, 4 Finals MVP's or 4 Reg Season MVP's...Bird has 3 chips and 2 Finals MVP's and is considered by alot to be top 5...If Kobe wins another Finals MVP, he would have tied Bird, while also having more titles, More Total Playoff points, more Reg Season ppg, More Game-winners, Better Defender, All-NBA, All-Defensive, All-Star, and All-Star MVP's, exc...So, lets not act like Kobe cant possibly enter top 5...

[Lebron23]

Ummm, I disagree with this....I mean, Bird doesn't have 4 Championships, 4 Finals MVP's or 4 Reg Season MVP's...Bird has 3 chips and 2 Finals MVP's and is considered by alot to be top 5...If Kobe wins another Finals MVP, he would have tied Bird, while also having more titles, More Total Playoff points, more Reg Season ppg, More Game-winners, Better Defender, All-NBA, All-Defensive, All-Star, and All-Star MVP's, exc...So, lets not act like Kobe cant possibly enter top 5...


Fair Enough. :cheers:

[BallersTalk]

Kobe can enter the Top 5 in terms of career accomplishments. But he's just individually not as good as any of the players in the Top 5. He's already peaked and we've already seen the best he can do and he doesn't stack up.

[branslowski]

Kobe can enter the Top 5 in terms of career accomplishments. But he's just individually not as good as any of the players in the Top 5. He's already peaked and we've already seen the best he can do and he doesn't stack up.

Totally disagree...If Rankings were only about individual playes with no Accomplishment used, then we would be going by pure Skill/Ability...And Jordan, Bird, Kobe, would be on multiple top 5 list...

I mean, Kobe can offensive ability would be right ahead of Birds, Kobe's defensive skills would be ahead of or on par with Birds. Bird has Kobe in 3pt shooting, but Kobe can hit fade-away jumpers from any part of the floor, has a solid mid-range game, impecable footwork, God like Post play skills, I can go on and on...If you really look at it, Bryant has limited weakness's...

If we took away Career accomplishments, we would all be left with on-court Skill for skill players....Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, holds this....Anyone with an unbias standpoint (excluding me because im a Kobe fan, and you because you hate the Bean) would quickly agree with my points on this.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Totally disagree...If Rankings were only about individual playes with no Accomplishment used, then we would be going by pure Skill/Ability...And Jordan, Bird, Kobe, would be on multiple top 5 list...

I mean, Kobe can offensive ability would be right ahead of Birds, Kobe's defensive skills would be ahead of or on par with Birds. Bird has Kobe in 3pt shooting, but Kobe can hit fade-away jumpers from any part of the floor, has a solid mid-range game, impecable footwork, God like Post play skills, I can go on and on...If you really look at it, Bryant has limited weakness's...

If we took away Career accomplishments, we would all be left with on-court Skill for skill players....Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, holds this....Anyone with an unbias standpoint (excluding me because im a Kobe fan, and you because you hate the Bean) would quickly agree with my points on this.

Except it's not about this nebulous concept of "skill" that Kobe fans love to tout, it's about impact. And Kobe is not more impactful than MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Bird/Magic/Hakeem/Shaq and probaby not Duncan either. Never was, never will be.

[branslowski]

Except it's not about this nebulous concept of "skill" that Kobe fans love to tout, it's about impact. And Kobe is not more impactful than MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Bird/Magic/Hakeem/Shaq and probaby not Duncan either. Never was, never will be.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

What exactly is your def of impact?....

The Bean set the standard for Perimeter players post Jordan (GOAT)...The league was looking for GREATNESS and found it...

Is impact this?

The Scoring dominance from a perimeter player the league hasn't seen post Jordan...

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season



THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Thats the scoring impact, the excitment for the game of bball...

Is it being the ultimate closer?..

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 11/23/07 - Lakers 89 - Pacers 88
(22) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121
(23) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121- Pacers 119

I mean, only 1 player in NBA HISTORY has more of these than The Bean...

Is it Playoff scoring?

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4259
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724

Looks like he's impacting that aswell...:oldlol:

Is it the Accolade's such as...

11x NBA ALL-STAR
(1999, 2000-2009)

3x NBA ALL-STAR MVP
(2002, 2007, 2009)

7x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2009)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)

2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

7x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2009)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

[B]9 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GAURD[/B

I mean, stack these up, and he's near the top with atleast the top 3 GREATS...

I mean, is the impact winning? Because 4 titles 1 Finals MVP, league MVP is very good...Now, if your basically saying that the true impact is Winning while being the dominant guy, than 1 more dominant finals run gives him a 2nd MVP and 5th title, basically passing Bird in these things, and if impact rest on this....Then..."Impact, Bean, Bean, Impact"...:oldlol:


Or, is this impact thing some sort of personal like/dislike...Who you felt more great watching..Also, the only impact Duncan would have over Kobe is Finals MVP's, But as for on court dominance in peak play, scoring rampage, opponant FEAR, Being called the BEST for years by Coaches (even Greg Popovic), Fellow players, exc...Players look up to Bryant aswell...Duncan doesn't pass Kobe on these things.

So basically, to say he doesn't have the impact when he clearly does is wrong....And saying he NEVER will is completly retarded....Now, im not saying its better than a Jordan's or Birds, but its up their...And another chip will open up this convo more, because I have future work to get into if the Bean wins a 5th title..... I usually don't take a known Bryant hater's opinions serious, but I like you..This is a done topic....

[Samurai Jack]

^^^ AI had more scoring dominance imo...

[branslowski]

^^^ AI had more scoring dominance imo...

Well good thing its YOUR opinion....

Iverson doesn't have near the amount of 50pt games
Iverson is behind Bryant in 40pt games
Bryant has about five 60pt gmaes to AI's 1..

Iverson could dream to have 81 in a game, or 62 in 3 quarters, or 50pts in 4 straight games...Or the other multiple scoring masterpieces...

All in all, Iverson is good comp to Bryant in this debate...Guess no problem with Iverson being mentioned here...:cheers:

[Younggrease]

lol at you acting as if there is a significant difference between getting to the finals 50% or 40% of the time as MJ did. When you look at what they did in the finals then MJ's 6-0 record is far superior to Kareem's 6-4.


.

so your giving MJ props for losing in earlier rounds then Kareem? That just doesnt make much sense to. Would you rather he lost in the semis or quarter finals?

[Fatal9]

^^^ AI had more scoring dominance imo...
Then you would be a retard.

[branslowski]

Then you would be a retard.

Nah, I could see someone taking Iverson...He does have 4 Scoring titles ya know...

[Samurai Jack]

Nah, I could see someone taking Iverson...He does have 4 Scoring titles ya know...
thats why i said it. fatal needs to stop being a jackass. there is no reason to call someone a retard.

[KAJ=GOAT]

Except it's not about this nebulous concept of "skill" that Kobe fans love to tout, it's about impact. And Kobe is not more impactful than MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Bird/Magic/Hakeem/Shaq and probaby not Duncan either. Never was, never will be.

So, how did the Lakers win the championship just last year, and be the final contender for it the year prior?

Certainly you can take away Kobe Bryant from each of the four championship teams he was on, and they would still have won the championship. Don't replace him with anyone but the scrub right behind him and fill up the scrubs spot.



:roll:

Take Kareem away from Magic, and what happens?
The Lakers lose in the finals.
Take Shaq away from Kobe, and what happens?
The Lakers lose in the finals, only to succeed the following year and be the odds on favorites to win it all again.

How in the hell is Kobe Bryant not more impactful than Magic Johnson? Magic Johnson without Kareem still had Worthy, Scott, Green, Thompson, etc. and didn't win anything.

Pau Gasol is the only all star Kobe Bryant had last year in comparison to Worthy,a former Finals MVP and multiple time all star.



I understand some of you really just can't grasp the fact that Kobe is an amazing all time talent with the achievements and accolades to go with it.

But really,

its time to let some of the past go as Kobe has already passed some of them up, or pulled up right alongside them with the chance to surpass.


Sometimes, things get better as time goes on,

just a fact.

When its all said and done, Kobe Bryant will have had a better career than some of those you listed barring any type of major injury.

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

What exactly is your def of impact?....

The Bean set the standard for Perimeter players post Jordan (GOAT)...The league was looking for GREATNESS and found it...

Is impact this?

The Scoring dominance from a perimeter player the league hasn't seen post Jordan...

81pts in a game
62pts in three quarters
42pts in 1st half
55pts in 2nd half
30pts in one quarter
12 threes in one game
9 threes without a miss in a game
8 threes in one half
9 straight games with 40pts+
4 straight games with 50pts+
27 games with 40pts+ in a season
10 games with 50pts+ in a season
4th player ever with a 35pt+ season average
5th player ever with a 2800pt+ season
1st player ever to outscore a team through 3 quarters
1st player ever with a 2800pt 180 three season



THE 50+PT GAMES:

Kobe-51pts 8ast 7reb vd GSW 99-00
Kobe-56pts 5ast 4reb vs Mem 00-01
Kobe-51pts 2ast 2reb vs Den 02-03
Kobe-52pts 7ast 8reb vs Hou 02-03
Kobe-55pts 3ast 5reb vs Was 02-03
Kobe-62pts 0ast 8reb vs Dal 05-06
Kobe-50pts 8ast 8reb vs Lac 05-06
Kobe-51pts 4ast 9reb vs Sac 05-06
Kobe-81pts 2ast 5reb vs Tor 05-06
Kobe-51pts 3ast 5reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-50pts 1ast 6reb vs Por 05-06
Kobe-50pts 5ast 8reb vs Pho 05-06
Kobe-52pts 4ast 4reb vs UTA 06-07
Kobe-53pts 8ast 10reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-58pts 4ast 5reb vs Cha 06-07
Kobe-65pts 3ast 7reb vs Por 06-07
Kobe-50pts 6ast 5reb vs Min 06-07
Kobe-60pts 5ast 3reb vs Mem 06-07
Kobe-50pts 7ast 6reb vs NO 06-07
Kobe-53pts 2ast 2reb vs Hou 06-07
Kobe-50pts ast 9reb vs Lac 06-07
Kobe-50pts 3ast 8reb vs Sea 06-07
Kobe-52pts 4ast 11reb vs Dal 07-08
Kobe-53pts ast 7reb vs Mem 07-08
Kobe-61pts 3ast 0reb vs Nyk 08-09

Thats the scoring impact, the excitment for the game of bball...

Is it being the ultimate closer?..

List of Kobe's notable game-winners:

1) 05/10/00 - Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (playoffs)
(2) 06/14/00 - Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (playoffs)
(3) 11/16/00 - Lakers 112 - Kings 110
(4) 02/07/01 - Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83
(5) 02/13/01 - Lakers 113 - Nets 110
(6) 01/02/02 - Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86
(7) 02/22/02 - Lakers 96 - Hornets 94
(8) 05/12/02 - Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (playoffs)
(9) 12/06/02 - Lakers 105 - Dallas 103
(10) 04/04/03 - Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101
(11) 04/06/03 - Lakers 115 - Suns 113
(12) 12/19/03 - Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99
(13) 02/17/04 - Lakers 89 - Blazers 86
(14) 03/21/04 - Lakers 104 - Bucks 103
(15) 04/14/04 - Lakers 105 - Blazers 104
(16) 03/12/05 - Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116
(17) 11/02/05 - Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97
(18) 01/07/06 - Lakers 112 - Clippers 109
(19) 01/13/06 - Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98
(20) 04/30/06 - Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (playoffs)
(21) 11/23/07 - Lakers 89 - Pacers 88
(22) 01/14/08 - Lakers 123 - Seattle 121
(23) 01/09/09 - Lakers 121- Pacers 119

I mean, only 1 player in NBA HISTORY has more of these than The Bean...

Is it Playoff scoring?

TOTAL CAREER PLAYOFF POINTS LIST TOP 10:
1.Michael Jordan* 5987
2.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 5762
3.Shaquille O'Neal 5121
4.Karl Malone 4761
5.Jerry West* 4457
6.Kobe Bryant* 4259
7.Larry Bird* 3897
8.John Havlicek* 3776
9.Hakeem Olajuwon* 3755
10.Tim Duncan 3724

Looks like he's impacting that aswell...:oldlol:

Is it the Accolade's such as...

11x NBA ALL-STAR
(1999, 2000-2009)

3x NBA ALL-STAR MVP
(2002, 2007, 2009)

7x ALL-NBA FIRST TEAM
(2002-2004, 2006-2009)

2x ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM
(2000, 2001)

2x ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM
(1999, 2005)

11 TOTAL ALL-NBA TEAMS

7x ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM
(2000, 2003-2004, 2006-2009)

2x ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM
(2001-2002)

[B]9 TOTAL ALL-DEFENSIVE TEAM......TIED FOR MOST OF ALL-TIME BY A GAURD[/B

I mean, stack these up, and he's near the top with atleast the top 3 GREATS...

I mean, is the impact winning? Because 4 titles 1 Finals MVP, league MVP is very good...Now, if your basically saying that the true impact is Winning while being the dominant guy, than 1 more dominant finals run gives him a 2nd MVP and 5th title, basically passing Bird in these things, and if impact rest on this....Then..."Impact, Bean, Bean, Impact"...:oldlol:


Or, is this impact thing some sort of personal like/dislike...Who you felt more great watching..Also, the only impact Duncan would have over Kobe is Finals MVP's, But as for on court dominance in peak play, scoring rampage, opponant FEAR, Being called the BEST for years by Coaches (even Greg Popovic), Fellow players, exc...Players look up to Bryant aswell...Duncan doesn't pass Kobe on these things.

So basically, to say he doesn't have the impact when he clearly does is wrong....And saying he NEVER will is completly retarded....Now, im not saying its better than a Jordan's or Birds, but its up their...And another chip will open up this convo more, because I have future work to get into if the Bean wins a 5th title..... I usually don't take a known Bryant hater's opinions serious, but I like you..This is a done topic....

:oldlol: Bumped 4 Loki...

[KAJ=GOAT]

:oldlol: Bumped 4 Loki...


Yea, but,

Mike Smrek has a greater +/- and better PER.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Impact isn't about putting up huge ppg numbers, you know. It's about, well, IMPACT. The sum of the things you do - tangible and intangible - that help your team win games. Suggesting that Kobe had as much impact as MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/Magic because he scored X number of points is silly - he simply never controlled games the way they did, and never had their impact.

If you had to win a game/series (not just 4th quarter, but over the course of an entire game/series), you'd take Kobe over any of those guys?

[rfm767]

All you people are just starting to see kobes legacy. He doesn't care where lebron goes or what he does. Kobe is so mentally focused and in such athletic form you are all in for a big surprise in 4-5 years.

[Roundball_Rock]

so your giving MJ props for losing in earlier rounds then Kareem? That just doesnt make much sense to. Would you rather he lost in the semis or quarter finals?

No, I give him props for finding a way to win every time he made it to the finals. Kareem lost even with the greatest PG of all-time on his team...

Earlier rounds? I believe Kareem was 10-4 in the conference finals. That is a 71% win rate. Jordan was 6-2 in the conference finals. That is a 75% win rate. They were on par there. What changed at the next level? I haven't looked at 1st and 2nd round records but they were likely similar there (Kareem did nothing in terms of winning for several years until Magic came to LA. It isn't as if Kareem was contending for championships every year), with one notable exception: Jordan never lost with home court advantage. In other words, when Jordan's team "should" have won they always did. Kareem's squads lost as favorites several times.

[branslowski]

Loki= FAIL

You dont even know what Impact is...First you say it's to controll the game, get wins for your team...Well, Kobe's scoring dominance can help you win ya know, his Defense aswell, along with his late game clutch abilities (see he's only 2nd behind Mike in game-winners)....Intangibles such as Killer instict and guts, heart is all what Bryant has...

If all those guy's were in the same boat, meaning having garbage teamates and being the only great player, I would only pick Jordan over Kobe if I wante to win a game....I mean, a guy who can outscore teams through 3/4 of a game is impact enough...Then to do it on both ends of the floor is God like..

Anyway, my earlier post basically shut this down...Your responce was weak as I expected..Im just not the guy you win debates against..Have a good one good sir.

[godofgods]

Kobe = ballhog.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Loki= FAIL

You dont even know what Impact is...First you say it's to controll the game, get wins for your team...Well, Kobe's scoring dominance can help you win ya know, his Defense aswell, along with his late game clutch abilities (see he's only 2nd behind Mike in game-winners)....Intangibles such as Killer instict and guts, heart is all what Bryant has...

If all those guy's were in the same boat, meaning having garbage teamates and being the only great player, I would only pick Jordan over Kobe if I wante to win a game....I mean, a guy who can outscore teams through 3/4 of a game is impact enough...Then to do it on both ends of the floor is God like..

Anyway, my earlier post basically shut this down...Your responce was weak as I expected..Im just not the guy you win debates against..Have a good one good sir.

All that hot air for nothing.

If you had to win a game/series (not just 4th quarter, but over the course of an entire game/series), you'd take Kobe over any of MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq/Bird/Magic? Answer the question. THAT'S how you determine impact.

[CB4GOATPF]

I honestly would become a Kobe fan. Dude would seriously have the opportunity to be the GOAT while simultaneously taking a fat shat on LeBron's career in the process.

To think a LeBron would go from a GOAT candidate to piggy-backing Wade's only career team and failing is a rather enticing thought to consider.

And to think Kobe close to his mid-30's could make this a reality is as ironic as it is iconic. A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.

[B]You forgot to mention that 3 of Kobe

[Roundball_Rock]

many Players of the Jordan era where way more Dominant than Kobe has ever been: Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Robinson

Did any of them ever score 35 ppg? Barkley, Malone never won championships. Neither did Robinson in his prime. How can they be more dominant than a 4x champ? David Robinson=the most overrated player of the 90's. He had all the stats in the world but where were the wins? Peak Hakeem>peak Kobe because he was dominant on both ends of the floor but I would take peak Kobe over peak Barkley, peak Malone, and definitely peak David "out by the second round or earlier" Robinson.


Kobe Needs ATLEAST 1 GREAT BIG MAN TO WIN

I don't understand the purpose of this argument, which many people make. So what? Kareem needed a great PG, Magic and Bird great big men, Shaq a great SG, Jordan a great point forward, and so on. No one can win by themselves so what is the purpose of this argument?

[Simple Jack]

Fixed :D .

Kareem: 25/11/4/3 blks/ 59% TS
Jordan: 30/6/5/2 stls / 57% TS

I'll take Kareem's 20 year career over Jordan's 15 year career any day of the week, especially considering he won just as many titles and more MVP's.

He didn't have as much success in the postseason, per games played. And regardless, Jordan wasn't paired up with Magic, another top 5 player of all-time. I'm surprised you can type all of that with your head so far up your ass!

[Younggrease]

No, I give him props for finding a way to win every time he made it to the finals. Kareem lost even with the greatest PG of all-time on his team...

Earlier rounds? I believe Kareem was 10-4 in the conference finals. That is a 71% win rate. Jordan was 6-2 in the conference finals. That is a 75% win rate. They were on par there. What changed at the next level? I haven't looked at 1st and 2nd round records but they were likely similar there (Kareem did nothing in terms of winning for several years until Magic came to LA. It isn't as if Kareem was contending for championships every year), with one notable exception: Jordan never lost with home court advantage. In other words, when Jordan's team "should" have won they always did. Kareem's squads lost as favorites several times.

Its no difference losing in the Finals or in the semis...you either win the title or you dont. You are essence giving MJ props for all the times he lost in the first round or missed the playoffs. I guess losing in the first round is better than losing in the finals. B/C that is exactly what your analysis leads to.

Finals performances are nothing special compared to Conference Finals Performances. Depending on the year the title is won in the Conference Finals(See Years the Lakers played the Nets in earlier 2000a)

Well maybe Jordan's team should have been favored more than 6 times then...its a little different spanning 6 years and spanning 20 complete decades without baseball breaks...

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't understand the purpose of this argument, which many people make. So what? Kareem needed a great PG, Magic and Bird great big men, Shaq a great SG, Jordan a great point forward, and so on. No one can win by themselves so what is the purpose of this argument?

Because it's well known and acknowledged that big men are the most important and impactful players in basketball, on average. And because if you look at the entire history of the NBA, only one superstar player has won multiple titles without a great big man. That's not a coincidence, and it's not because the stars aligned for him -- he was simply that good.

[CB4GOATPF]

Did any of them ever score 35 ppg? Barkley, Malone never won championships. Neither did Robinson in his prime. How can they be more dominant than a 4x champ? David Robinson=the most overrated player of the 90's. He had all the stats in the world but where were the wins?

[B]Because they happened to play in an Superior Era with

Deeper, No Excessive Team Expansion
No Punk Highschool Play Ground Unfundamental Pricks Allowed
No Puss Fouls Callled
No Help or Free Lanes for Perimeter Jordan Wanabees Slashers
Dominant Big Man that Where Allowed to Play Physcal (No Destruction of Frontline Play)
Real Handchecking
Real Rough Play
It Was a Mans Game

Nope but they managed to score at 50% FG Many Times...Something Unheard Of for Kobe

Don

[chazzy]

A dominant big man impacts the game of basketball MUCH more than a dominant wing player. That's just the way it is, and the way it always has been. It goes well beyond the boxscore, there are many intangibles involved.. Kobe's an AMAZING, top 10 player of all time, but there is no way he impacts the game of basketball the way DOMINANT big men like Shaq, Hakeem, KAJ, Wilt did. And yes we all know Kobe is a great defender, but the way a big man impacts a defense and the way a perimeter player impacts a defense is completely different. It's just the norm for a big man to have more of an impact, no one's taking anything away from Kobe.

There's a huge difference between skill/talent and IMPACT on a game.

[BallersTalk]

Kobe - Phil = 34-48

[Roundball_Rock]

Its no difference losing in the Finals or in the semis...you either win the title or you dont. You are essence giving MJ props for all the times he lost in the first round or missed the playoffs. I guess losing in the first round is better than losing in the finals. B/C that is exactly what your analysis leads to.

Do you think Kareem had a better record than MJ in the first or second round? They are on par in conference finals and MJ crushes him in the NBA finals. I may look it up tomorrow but I bet Kareem and MJ had similar records in the first two rounds.


Finals performances are nothing special compared to Conference Finals Performances. Depending on the year the title is won in the Conference Finals(See Years the Lakers played the Nets in earlier 2000a)

The early 2000's were an anomaly where the real NBA finals was the WCF. in the 90's the NBA finals were the legit finals. 91' Lakers>91' Pistons, 92' Blazers>92' Cavs, 93' Suns=93' Knicks, 96' Sonics=96' Magic, 97' Jazz>97' Heat, 98' Jazz>98' Pacers.


Well maybe Jordan's team should have been favored more than 6 times then...its a little different spanning 6 years and spanning 20 complete decades without baseball breaks...

I was talking about all playoff series. When a Jordan team had home court advantage it always won. BTW, the Jazz were favored to win in 98' and the 93' Suns, like the 98' Jazz, had home court advantage in the finals.


it's well known and acknowledged that big men are the most important and impactful players in basketball, on average. And because if you look at the entire history of the NBA, only one superstar player has won multiple titles without a great big man. That's not a coincidence, and it's not because the stars aligned for him -- he was simply that good.

Fair point when comparing Jordan to other perimeter players. What I disagree with is the notion that winning with a big man carries a sort of asterisk with it that big men needing great perimeter players (i.e. Kareem a PG and Shaq a SG) doesn't.

[wagexslave]

:no:

Regular Season MVP means nothing
I hope you're either joking, incredibly wasted, or clinically retarded. That's by far the stupidest thing I've read on ISH.

[CB4GOATPF]

A dominant big man impacts the game of basketball MUCH more than a dominant wing player. That's just the way it is, and the way it always has been. It goes well beyond the boxscore, there are many intangibles involved.. Kobe's an AMAZING, top 10 player of all time, but there is no way he impacts the game of basketball the way DOMINANT big men like Shaq, Hakeem, KAJ, Wilt did. And yes we all know Kobe is a great defender, but the way a big man impacts a defense and the way a perimeter player impacts a defense is completely different. It's just the norm for a big man to have more of an impact, no one's taking anything away from Kobe.

There's a huge difference between skill/talent and IMPACT on a game.

Kobe is Not a Top 10 ALL TIME IMPACT OR EFFICIENCY PLAYER....Never Was or Will Be

Impact? Jordan was a wing Player and he is N1 ALL TIME IN PER...no excuses...

Jordan Impacted the game like a Big Man while playing in the perimeter (same way Lebron does today but with superior Skills)

Barkley is in The TOP 10 ALL TIME EFF, PER (Play-Off and Season) and Statistical Plus/Minus departments.

Way More Dominant and Efficient than Kobe.

Healthy 89-96 Robinson was Better than Kobe by 1000 MILES...

Prime 85-97 Malone on Both Ends had More Impact than Kobe Ever has had.

[chazzy]

Kobe is Not a Top 10 ALL TIME IMPACT OR EFFICIENCY PLAYER....Never Was or Will Be

Impact? Jordan was a wing Player and he is N1 ALL TIME IN PER...no excuses...

Jordan Impacted the game like a Big Man while playing in the perimeter (same way Lebron does today but with superior Skills)

Barkley is in The TOP 10 ALL TIME EFF, PER (Play-Off and Season) and Statistical Plus/Minus departments.

Way More Dominant and Efficient than Kobe.

Healthy 89-96 Robinson was Better than Kobe by 1000 MILES...

Prime 85-97 Malone on Both Ends had More Impact than Kobe Ever has had.

I didn't say Kobe was Top 10 in efficiency or impact, I agree he isn't a very efficient player for his career in terms of fg% and shot selection.

But he's simply ranked in the Top 10 players IMO. This is commonly judged by achievements/accolades along with stats.. which is why you don't see Barkley, Robinson, or Malone on anyone's top 10 list. Zero rings. You can argue that they played in the Jordan era, but the fact remains, zero rings. That's all I meant by Kobe arguably being in the top 10, it is a debatable topic and by no means a fact, but to say those 3 players rank above him going by this standard, it is simply not true. If your top 10 is based on different metrics, impact, efficiency, plus/minus etc. then go ahead and rank them that way, I'm going by the commonly accepted standard made by most basketball fans.

But not to go off topic, because top 10 rankings is a whole other issue, at least we agree that big men impact the game more :confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Kobe - Phil = 34-48

Kobe, Lamar, and Butler combined missed 41 games :confusedshrug:

Not to mention a new coach, and then a midseason coaching change. Nice attempt to imply Kobe is a lottery player without Phil.

[CB4GOATPF]

I didn't say Kobe was Top 10 in efficiency or impact, I agree he isn't a very efficient player for his career in terms of fg% and shot selection.

But he's simply ranked in the Top 10 players IMO. This is commonly judged by achievements/accolades along with stats.. which is why you don't see Barkley, Robinson, or Malone on anyone's top 10 list. Zero rings. You can argue that they played in the Jordan era, but the fact remains, zero rings. That's all I meant by Kobe arguably being in the top 10, it is a debatable topic and by no means a fact, but to say those 3 players rank above him going by this standard, it is simply not true. If your top 10 is based on different metrics, impact, efficiency, plus/minus etc. then go ahead and rank them that way, I'm going by the commonly accepted standard made by most basketball fans.

But not to go off topic, because top 10 rankings is a whole other issue, at least we agree that big men impact the game more :confusedshrug:

[B]Rings are a team concept not how Great a Player was or is.

Impact and Efficiency is reality as it goes and wen

[chazzy]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]Rings are a team concept not how Great a Player was or is.

Impact and Efficiency is reality as it goes and wen

[Roundball_Rock]

CB4, you poured out stats but where were the wins? It isn't as if they never had opportunities. Malone made it to two NBA finals and five conference finals, Robinson was owned by a #6 seed in the WCF in 95' when he was the alleged MVP, and Barkley played on a stacked Suns team. They just couldn't get over the hump. Kobe has--4 times.


A dominant big man impacts the game of basketball MUCH more than a dominant wing player. That's just the way it is, and the way it always has been.

Michael Jordan=6 rings
Magic Johnson=5 rings

Wilt=2 rings
Hakeem=2 rings

Look at last season. The top centers were Yao, Howard, Shaq, and Al Jefferson. Two of them missed the playoffs and another got out the first round for the first time in his career. What impact is this? The top SG's and top SF's had far more impact (i.e. the top two SF's made it to the conference finals).


Healthy 89-96 Robinson was Better than Kobe by 1000 MILES...

Didn't Kobe win more playoff games last year alone than prime Robinson did from 1989-1996? :oldlol:


Prime 85-97 Malone on Both Ends had More Impact than Kobe Ever has had.

Where was his impact when it counted the most? Why did you cut it off at 97'? He was MVP in 99'.

CB4, I respect you but ultimate impact is in the win-loss column. That is why as chazzy said Duncan>KG even though their stats are comparable.

[Fatal9]

All that hot air for nothing.

If you had to win a game/series (not just 4th quarter, but over the course of an entire game/series), you'd take Kobe over any of MJ/Wilt/KAJ/Shaq/Bird/Magic? Answer the question. THAT'S how you determine impact.
Kobe has every bit the impact of Bird/Magic. He just hasn't had 20+ years for his legend to grow. I'd probably still take Bird (easily) and MAYBE Magic (depending on the teams needs) but let's not act like he isn't in the same league.

[triangleoffense]

If Wade and LeBron team up they are arguaby one of the best 1-2 punch in NBA History.

I think they are going to win at least 3 NBA Championships in the next decade because Kobe, Garnett, Pierce, Dirk, Nash, and Duncan are not getting younger anymore.

Kobe needs at least 4 NBA Finals MVP and 4 NBA Regular Season MVP if he wants to be consider as a top 5 greatest player in NBA History.

1-2 punch means inside outside threat. Unless Lebron gains another 3-4 inches and actually develops an inside game I doubt that's going to happen. Wilt/West or Kareem/Magic deserve that honor. Hell Kobe/Shaq is a way more dynamic 1-2 than Lebron/Wade ever will be. Coincidentally the best 1-2 punches have all been Lakers.

[kentatm]

GOAT candidates don't piggy-back.


Yea but MJ sure got a pretty nice push from Pip and Phil.

[plowking]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF]Did any of them ever score 35 ppg? Barkley, Malone never won championships. Neither did Robinson in his prime. How can they be more dominant than a 4x champ? David Robinson=the most overrated player of the 90's. He had all the stats in the world but where were the wins?

[B]Because they happened to play in an Superior Era with

Deeper, No Excessive Team Expansion
No Punk Highschool Play Ground Unfundamental Pricks Allowed
No Puss Fouls Callled
No Help or Free Lanes for Perimeter Jordan Wanabees Slashers
Dominant Big Man that Where Allowed to Play Physcal (No Destruction of Frontline Play)
Real Handchecking
Real Rough Play
It Was a Mans Game

Nope but they managed to score at 50% FG Many Times...Something Unheard Of for Kobe

Don

[CB4GOATPF]

[B]Man u people are laughable u judge a player but how many rings and mvps he has :oldlol: :rolleyes: they are all determined by how good ur team is and popularity-likes of a coach, opinions etc not by reality.

Stats don

[plowking]

Why is Wade not on the career list. He's played over 400 games and has a PER of 25.3, which may I add is better than Barkley.

[CB4GOATPF]

Why is Wade not on the career list. He's played over 400 games and has a PER of 25.3, which may I add is better than Barkley.

[B]Stern

[plowking]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]Stern

[Samurai Jack]

this thread should be closed.

[branslowski]

:roll: :roll: :roll: @ CB4's delusional ass who thinks these Broken down stats reveal True Ranks...

I remember Jinxed finding some stats that had Amir Johnson over Kobe, Duncan, and Dwight Howard..:roll: :roll: :roll:


Keep up the never ending search to Prop Barkley up to Top 10...:applause:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe has every bit the impact of Bird/Magic. He just hasn't had 20+ years for his legend to grow. I'd probably still take Bird (easily) and MAYBE Magic (depending on the teams needs) but let's not act like he isn't in the same league.

:oldlol:

Both of them clearly have more impact on games than Kobe. Get a grip.

[plowking]

:oldlol:

Both of them clearly have more impact on games than Kobe. Get a grip.

I agree with Bird being more impactful, though Magic maybe not.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I agree with Bird being more impactful, though Magic maybe not.
At peak level Johnson was inarguably superior to Bryant, whilst Bird was superior to both. Johnson & Bird could create something out of nothing, beit a much higher efficency rate than Bryant's often ill advised fadeaway, a Bird or Magic pass or tap pass to a teammate for a wide open layup.

They could read the floor and instantly take advantage of defensive errors with their passing.

Who is going to do anything about this? "You make a mistake it's not even a question of whether or not you're gonna get burned, you're burnt already."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWDqHFjpkQ

At 3:25 mark

[plowking]

At peak level Johnson was inarguably superior to Bryant, whilst Bird was superior to both. Johnson & Bird could create something out of nothing, beit a much higher efficency rate than Bryant's often ill advised fadeaway, a Bird or Magic pass or tap pass to a teammate for a wide open layup.

They could read the floor and instantly take advantage of defensive errors with their passing.

Who is going to do anything about this? "You make a mistake it's not even a question of whether or not you're gonna get burned, you're burnt already."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygWDqHFjpkQ

At 3:25 mark

That post was for nothing. They could take advantage of defensive errors? Wasn't Kobe the guy who scored 81, and 60+ multiple times. I'd say he's in the same league, particularly in the same league as Johnson.

[Abraham Lincoln]

That post was for nothing. They could take advantage of defensive errors? Wasn't Kobe the guy who scored 81, and 60+ multiple times. I'd say he's in the same league, particularly in the same league as Johnson.
Differing rules. Never mind that a lethal scoring/passing combo be at a much higher efficienct rate than only scoring. The ability to elevate everyone on the team is invaluable. For the "make teammates better" phrase is overused, it is not in the case of Bird and Johnson. Bryant is not in either player's league as for impacting the all around level.

[plowking]

Differing rules. Never mind that a lethal scoring/passing combo be at a much higher efficienct rate than only scoring. The ability to elevate everyone on the team is invaluable. For the "make teammates better" phrase is overused, it is not in the case of Bird and Johnson. Bryant is not in either player's league as for impacting the all around level.

Bryant is a great passer, though its hard to record assists in a triangle offense. You'll notice even most of Jordan's high assists seasons came before he was placed in the triangle offense scheme.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Bryant is a great passer, though its hard to record assists in a triangle offense. You'll notice even most of Jordan's high assists seasons came before he was placed in the triangle offense scheme.
Indeed, however the missed point being that Bird & Johnson's far superior versatility alone ranks them above Bryant. Very little to do with assists per game average. Bryant is superb when it comes to 1-1 scoring repertoire, but for the apparent "most skilled player ever", he is not the most skilled passer, ball handler, rebounder, wing defender, post defender, screen setter, pick setter, or off ball cutter. Nor is he close.

[Abraham Lincoln]

In past years he has shown the inability to capitalize on defensive errors to the magnitude of Johnson & Bird. For whilst one can outrun a man and contest a jumpshot, nobody can outrun a well executed pass. Degree of percieved difficulty relative to position shan't be the barometer of said creedence. :cheers:

[CB4GOATPF]

[B]Barkley

[D-Rose]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]Barkley

[CB4GOATPF]

Did you just compare the FG% of a perimeter player to a big man? :wtf:

[B]Its obvious you expect for Big Men to Shoot at a Higher % but there have been plenty of big men that shot pathetic and below 50% FG..others who have no post game so they retreat for jumpers.

No excuse there have been plenty of PGs, SGs and SFs-that usually play in the perimeter- that have had more than one seaon on 20 PPG on 50% FG.

Jerry West at 6

[Roundball_Rock]

All those guys you mentioned played before 3's were a big part of the game. Kobe's FG % is comparable to the elite SG's of his generation (T Mac, VC, Allen, Wade, AI).

[CB4GOATPF]

All those guys you mentioned played before 3's were a big part of the game. Kobe's FG % is comparable to the elite SG's of his generation (T Mac, VC, Allen, Wade, AI).

3s are a Lower % Shot than a Mid Range Jumper or Taking it to the Basket for a Score and if a a Foul involved at th FT (even more of a higher% shot)

Ohh and not to forget the rule changes all in favor of perimeter players and all designed to destroy contact and especially big man game in the painted area.

This is the treatment Kobe would have recieved in the 80s and early 90s if he slashed or drove to the basket back then (as he does freely today)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bM-Y4UoiAY

[plowking]

3s are a Lower % Shot than a Mid Range Jumper or Taking it to the Basket for a Score and if a a Foul involved at th FT (even more of a higher% shot)

Ohh and not to forget the rule changes all in favor of perimeter players and all designed to destroy contact and big man game in the painted area.

Yeah, yeah, we've heard it all before. Go watch a few games from the 90's and 80's and today's game. Nothing has changed. I'm tired of these lame ass posters pretending it was prison ball or no blood no foul BS in the 80's and 90's.

Get a life.

[Roundball_Rock]

Is the league idiotic? Is Phoenix on crack for shooting so many 3's? Shooting 33% on 3's produces as many points as shooting 50% on 2's. This is why you see so many players with that kind of range taking a lot of 3's. Should them having great range be held against them? Kobe's efficiency isn't great but it is on par with his contemporaries like T Mac and VC (worse than Allen, better than AI).

[Kiddlovesnets]

What is the logic of this thread?

[plowking]

What is the logic of this thread?

There is about as much logic in this thread as your posts.

[ZaaaaaH]

Impact isn't about putting up huge ppg numbers, you know. It's about, well, IMPACT. The sum of the things you do - tangible and intangible - that help your team win games. Suggesting that Kobe had as much impact as MJ/KAJ/Wilt/Shaq/Bird/Magic because he scored X number of points is silly - he simply never controlled games the way they did, and never had their impact.

If you had to win a game/series (not just 4th quarter, but over the course of an entire game/series), you'd take Kobe over any of those guys?


Good post. I like Kobe but he does not impact the game as much as those guys.

[ZaaaaaH]

LOL its funny how I never seen some of these guys say anything good about Kobe not once but on every thread someone is talking about Kobe they are fken there in a heart beat to hate.

Kobe is top 10 no doubt As of today 11/09

I don't understand what he needs to do so people like CB stop posting dumb ass stats that no one reads or have read past 3 years. If you ever watch Kobe play a WHOLE GAME you will understand why his reb and assist is avrg. If Kobe wants to avrg 8 rebs he can do that. Just like everyone on the Laker squad Kobe also knows his roll. Kobe rarely stands around the basket to get boards. As for assist he plays in triangle offense and two years ago he had bunch of scrubs who cant hit shots. Kobe face double just about every night and yes those effect your stats as well.

I can go on and on but it dont really matter cause they are going to hate on Kobe untill they witness that he was great which will happen later down the road.


Jordan is GOAT and Kobe cant touch that but he is right there.

So far 7-9 games played

Kobe still the best in the league.

[game3524]

Add Michael Beasley

Basketball is a team sports. Just look how talented the rosters of the Celtics and Lakers in the 1980's.

Nobody's going to criticize Wade and LeBron when they team up together because some of the most successful teams in NBA History have a very talented supporting casts.

:roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF][B]Barkley

[AlphaWolf24]

Good post. I like Kobe but he does not impact the game as much as those guys.



:facepalm Gawd....

[rmt]

So you'll just conveniently forget that Kobe himself teamed up with the MDE/top 6-8 player for 3 of his rings.

[AlphaWolf24]

So you'll just conveniently forget that Kobe himself teamed up with the MDE/top 6-8 player for 3 of his rings.


No Kobe was already on the Lakers before Shaq came....so U = FAIL on that one..

Kobe was a 17 year old...he rode the bench for 2 years.....at 22 years old he put up a 29PPG 7REB 6AST Championship run (which happens to b e better then Wade's 06' playoff run)

at No point did he go Ring chasing and Join the Spurs .....in fact just the opposite....He booted Shaq outta L.A....and replaced him with a soft Euro and went to 3 straight Finals:lol

Shaq played on 7 50+ win teams without Kobe......how did he do?:roll:

[Lucifer]

^Actually that off-season they landed kobe and shaq.

[sagr32]

^Actually that off-season they landed kobe and shaq.
It was the same offseason but Kobe was technically a Laker before Shaq :D

[rmt]

No Kobe was already on the Lakers before Shaq came....so U = FAIL on that one..

Kobe was a 17 year old...he rode the bench for 2 years.....at 22 years old he put up a 29PPG 7REB 6AST Championship run (which happens to b e better then Wade's 06' playoff run)

at No point did he go Ring chasing and Join the Spurs .....in fact just the opposite....He booted Shaq outta L.A....and replaced him with a soft Euro and went to 3 straight Finals:lol

Shaq played on 7 50+ win teams without Kobe......how did he do?:roll:

I was not referring to when Kobe or Shaq joined the Lakers but how ironic (in reference to the Wade/Lebron duo) it is that the OP could think that Kobe's legacy could exceed Jordan's when 3 of Kobe's rings were with Shaq (whereas MJ had no one of Shaq's caliber).

[R.I.P.]

And to think Kobe close to his mid-30's could make this a reality is as ironic as it is iconic. A Wade/Bron tandem would be more dynamic than anything Jordan faced. Two wins against them in the Finals would cement Kobe as the GOAT, IMO.

K = D
O = I
B = R
E = K

:lol

[LA_Showtime]

So you'll just conveniently forget that Kobe himself teamed up with the MDE/top 6-8 player for 3 of his rings.

And Shaq teamed up with one of the most potent scorers of all-time, a top 5 player, and arguably the best two way player at his position (at the time, obviously). What's your point?

[AlphaWolf24]

I was not referring to when Kobe or Shaq joined the Lakers but how ironic (in reference to the Wade/Lebron duo) it is that the OP could think that Kobe's legacy could exceed Jordan's when 3 of Kobe's rings were with Shaq (whereas MJ had no one of Shaq's caliber).

Kobe and Shaq with Glenn rice as a 3rd Option:lol ...compared to the Stacked Bull's teams of the 90's???

come on son....you in way over your head on this one.....MJ had one of the greatest all around players/defenders ever and a Top 50 alltime Teammate....not to mention 3 of the Bull's Titles he had the Greatest Defensive player / Rebounder of his generation and the Greatest european player of the 90's on his team...

Plus let's face it...the 90's MJ's Bull's had no real competition....league expansion from 1988 - 1994 watered down Talent....

lakers had Kobe and Shaq....with hardly any decent role players (outside of Fish and Bob)...but trying to say Kobe is Lucky to have played with Shaq?.....naw...other way around.....Shaq played on 7 50+ win teams without Kobe.....never had the postseason success(not even close) like he did with #8....

[AlphaWolf24]

And Shaq teamed up with one of the most potent scorers of all-time, a top 5 player, and arguably the best two way player at his position (at the time, obviously). What's your point?
:applause:

...and Shaq never sniffed the post season success like he had with #8...despite playing with Penny , Nash , Lebron ,Wade and Pierce....from MDE with Kobe to MRE (Muthaf2cka Ready to eat) without Kobe.....


next

[rmt]

Kobe and Shaq with Glenn rice as a 3rd Option:lol ...compared to the Stacked Bull's teams of the 90's???

come on son....you in way over your head on this one.....MJ had one of the greatest all around players/defenders ever and a Top 50 alltime Teammate....not to mention 3 of the Bull's Titles he had the Greatest Defensive player / Rebounder of his generation and the Greatest european player of the 90's on his team...

Plus let's face it...the 90's MJ's Bull's had no real competition....league expansion from 1988 - 1994 watered down Talent....

lakers had Kobe and Shaq....with hardly any decent role players (outside of Fish and Bob)...but trying to say Kobe is Lucky to have played with Shaq?.....naw...other way around.....Shaq played on 7 50+ win teams without Kobe.....never had the postseason success(not even close) like he did with #8....

LOL - decent role players - Horry and Fish only have 12 rings between them. I think you'd be hard pressed to find better or more clutch role players.

Some of you LA fans fail to see the irony of this post. If Kobe will be launched into GOAT status by beating Lebron/Wade, what does that make Dirk who beat Lebron/Wade without the best front line in the league or Duncan who beat Shaq/Kobe on the way to 2 rings?

And it's now #24. What's up with the change - is it some sub-conscious goal that eventually 24 > 23?

[AlphaWolf24]

LOL - decent role players - Horry and Fish only have 12 rings between them. I think you'd be hard pressed to find better or more clutch role players.

Some of you LA fans fail to see the irony of this post. If Kobe will be launched into GOAT status by beating Lebron/Wade, what does that make Dirk who beat Lebron/Wade without the best front line in the league or Duncan who beat Shaq/Kobe on the way to 2 rings?

And it's now #24. What's up with the change - is it some sub-conscious goal that eventually 24 > 23?


Horace Grant , and BJ Armstrong were all allstars and IMO Horace Grant brought far more to the table then Horry ....

Horry while bieng a Clutch Shooter never made the allstar team and never impacted the defense and rebounding like Grant or Rodman...

BJ and Fish are both clutch shooters....BJ was slightly better at getting his own shot...but both had similar roles.


Horry and Fish are good role players...but they are not on the same level as the players MJ had.


:facepalm @ Jordan stans

[rmt]

Horace Grant , and BJ Armstrong were all allstars and IMO Horace Grant brought far more to the table then Horry ....

Horry while bieng a Clutch Shooter never made the allstar team and never impacted the defense and rebounding like Grant or Rodman...

BJ and Fish are both clutch shooters....BJ was slightly better at getting his own shot...but both had similar roles.


Horry and Fish are good role players...but they are not on the same level as the players MJ had.


:facepalm @ Jordan stans

Not a Jordan fan at all. But in all my years of watching the NBA (since 1977), there has not been a player to touch Jordan. IMO, he is the GOAT (that I've seen - of course, I didn't see KAJ's early career).

[AlphaWolf24]

Not a Jordan fan at all. But in all my years of watching the NBA (since 1977), there has not been a player to touch Jordan. IMO, he is the GOAT (that I've seen - of course, I didn't see KAJ's early career).


cool story Bro.....