What if the Bulls traded Jordan in 1988?

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: You exposed yourself earlier in this thread. No one on this site is dumb enough to think Pip was only the third best player on the 94' Bulls (he may have been the third best player in the entire league!). Of course neither are you but your original gimmick account holds that position.

:oldlol: anyone who still thinks I am Fatal9 is dense.

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll: You exposed yourself earlier in this thread. No one on this site is dumb enough to think Pip was only the third best player on the 94' Bulls (he may have been the third best player in the entire league!). Of course neither are you but your original gimmick account holds that position.

:oldlol: anyone who still thinks I am Fatal9 is dense.

Pippen was hardly ever better than Steve Smith or Mookie Blaylock. If Pippen was the 3rd best player in the league than Steve Smith was the best and Mookie was the 2nd best player in the league.

[Cyclone112]

I don't remember vert48's views on MJ. That in and of itself suggests he/she is not a "MJ hater" for he would be in MJ threads and memorable as a "MJ hater."
Fair enough, I can't recall and that is a good point.


Why didn't you mention:

D.J.
Me
Fatal
vert48
KBlaze
AlphaWolf
ScottPippen
White Chocolate
32jazz

What are their agendas? They are MJ haters too? You speak of "bias" and "agendas" yet are unable to recognize your own bias and "agenda". Even if we accept your claims the remaining "unbiased" fans ALL had them in the finals. What does that say? KBlaze is perhaps the most respected poster here. He is out to get MJ too?

I never said they had agendas and that's specifically why I left them out. They stated their opinion and I take them to be unbiased.


Weak spin. juju is a card carrying member of the MJ Pippen diminishing brigade.

As much as you hate juju because he's gotten to the point of just losing it on everyone because he can't stand the MJ hating anymore he is not a Pippen hater and I bet he believes they would have beaten the Knicks team had they gone up 3-2. He's in this thread and I would be interested in what he says regarding that.


You obviosly know nothing about OSB, another card carrying member of the MJ fan Pippen diminishing brigade. This is a guy who would quibble over 1 ppg and 1-1.5 apg regarding Pippen. Where did he do that? In "what if" scenarios (i.e. Pippen playing in the 70's in a Pip vs. Havelick thread). :oldlol:

I've seen plenty of Loki which you probably didn't know him as and I rarely see him instigate arguments, it seems 90% of his posts are defending MJ hating and that isn't even the point. The point is that he didn't state what would actually happen in that series.


duncan21 is a troll? I haven't heard a single MJ fan complain about him. What does being an alleged Kobe hater have to do with the 94' Bulls?

How are you even questioning whether he is a troll or not. No matter how delusional the MJ fan is, no one in their right mind would say Scottie was the third best on the 94 Bulls which obviously means he's a troll or a complete retard. Judging from this thread MJ fans ignore him just like most people ignore Sir Charles with his random walls of useless statistics.

Kobe haters hate Kobe nut huggers so naturally they will argue and disagree with them when they try to rip on their favourite player.


Irrelevant. You fail to see the larger picture. Of all the MJ fans zero had them in the finals and only one even had them in the ECF. In contrast, it was 9-0 among non-MJ fans.

You need to stop doing the 9-0 vs 0-8 thing because you include Kobe nut huggers and trolls in the 9-0 which is including biased haters and the 0-8 you again include obvious trolls, Kobe haters. That automatically means the list isn't strictly 'MJ fans' vs 'Non MJ fans'.

You also make your own conclusions when many of the 'MJ fans' don't even state their opinion. Also guy was mostly in favour of Pippen making the finals.


Yeah--in 1993 (Charles Smith). Niko did not have them in the finals and being a Knicks fan one presumes he would have them winning. Either way he didn't have the Bulls in the finals. Stupid hypothetical? Why did he click on the thread?

Again, you put words in his mouth when all he did was enter the thread and basically say he didn't like hypotheticals which is exactly what he is implying. Asking why he clicked on the thread doesn't even make sense, maybe he wanted to comment on how he didn't like hypotheticals.


Irrelevant. 9-0 among non-MJ fans, 0-8 among MJ fans. There were no questions among non-MJ fans. They were all very confident the Bulls would get to the finals. Even if we adjust you that is 9-0 versus 1-7. The overall point stands.

How is it irrelevant, you consider me an MJ stan. Just because I didn't post in that thread means my vote doesn't count. Why would I change my mind to try to as you say get the vote to 1-7 when I'd be doing more damage agreeing Scottie had a great shot at making the finals without MJ if it weren't for that call.


Yet your "logic" blames Pippen fans for responding. Jordan fans outnumber us by a huge margin. They initiate. Yet it is Pippen fans who are at fault? What brilliant logic.

How does my logic blame Pippen fans for responding. I have no problem defending a player getting attacked when being reasonable about it. You make it seem like MJ fans instigate all the attacks when all I can recall as of late is you and Fatal9 leading the MJ hate/Pippen praise across multiple threads.


I never saw KB post so I can't comment on him. Fatal is logical, intelligent, and backs his opinions up with facts. Face it: your problem with him is his conclusions. If that is your problem why are you even on a discussion forum? Discussion. Forum. Both imply a diversity of views. If you oppose that create a Soviet-style "Jordan worship" forum where no dissent is allowed.

My problem with Fatal is every opportunity he gets to tear down MJ and build up Kobe at the expense of other players is ridiculous. He actually spends hours of research on people like KAJ and Bird just so he can make a case as to why MJ sucks. He never watched them play, he only watches highlights and looks at stats and he doesn't do that to learn about them and enjoy their game, he actually does it just so he can tear down MJ. Do you not realize how ****ing crazy that is, that's obsessive compulsive hatred over someone who played a sport for a living.

It's funny how you make remarks on "discussion" when besides the last page of this thread I've never seen you actually 'discuss' ideas with people. Your post(#242) is the first time I've actually seen you acknowledge someone else's post that is opposed to your opinion instead of immediately trying to counter argue.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't want to get into 3 pages of talking about the 94' thread. I'll say this, look at the names in that thread. Look at the names in this thread downplaying the OP team the most. Pay attention in the next few Pippen-related threads you see. It is the same dozen MJ fans who are always bashing Pip. It is like clockwork that at least half the crew will be deployed to a given thread.

I don't hate juju. What makes you say that? I probably post more with juju than anyone here. If I hated him or thought juju was an idiot I simply would put him on ignore. I actually like juju.

By the way it sounds like you know juju???

Loki/OldSchool is the captain of the MJ fan Pippen diminishing team. He is intelligent and knowledgeable. He won't say stupid things like "Pippen was the third best player on the 94' Bulls" or ignorant things like "I have a realistic view of Pippen...He was not even top 50 all-time" like some of the other members of the team. OSB will say things like "Pippen was a top 5 player for 4-5 seasons and top 10 for 2-3 more", "Pippen is 22-26 all-time" to sound objective. Then when it comes to the details he will quibble for 3 pages over whether 1 ppg or 1.5 apg more in a hypothetical Pippen discussion (does 26 ppg or 27 ppg for Pip in the 70's really make a difference?). To put it simply he is the most effective of the group. He usually doesn't instigate, but you can be sure he will show up in 90% of Pip-related threads and he will always take the anti-Pippen line.


How does my logic blame Pippen fans for responding. I have no problem defending a player getting attacked when being reasonable about it. You make it seem like MJ fans instigate all the attacks when all I can recall as of late is you and Fatal9 leading the MJ hate/Pippen praise across multiple threads.

The recent stuff started when Jordan fans began to diminish Pippen in the "Scottie Pippen speaks on today's game" thread. That wound up being a long thread which turned into a "Pippen vs. Jordan" thread and for 4-5 pages drifted into a "Kareem vs. Jordan" thread after MJ fans began the "clear GOAT" mantra. That led to the "Kareem GOAT" thread. This thread was a hypothetical I came across reading a book. I didn't think it would become what it became. There was a similar thread on Hakeem/Jordan/Drexler in Houston and no one whined about that or obsessed with downplaying that team.

As you alluded to, I joined the board fairly recently. Did the Pippen diminishing stuff start because I started posting here? No. I lurked here for about 2 months and saw several Pippen threads. I joined to have a say in them. I was pro-MJ when I joined. I even posted 2 pro-MJ threads. I noticed a trend, though: in every Pippen-related thread 90% of the people bashing him were Jordan fans. That led to a natural reaction of turning hostile to MJ and here we are today.

Regarding Fatal, when is the last time he even made a thread relating to MJ? The only thread I remember him making since the season began was something Kobe did in a game that night.


My problem with Fatal is every opportunity he gets to tear down MJ and build up Kobe at the expense of other players is ridiculous. He actually spends hours of research on people like KAJ and Bird just so he can make a case as to why MJ sucks. He never watched them play, he only watches highlights and looks at stats and he doesn't do that to learn about them and enjoy their game, he actually does it just so he can tear down MJ. Do you not realize how ****ing crazy that is, that's obsessive compulsive hatred over someone who played a sport for a living.

I think a lot of your problem is with the positions we take. No one complained about me when I was pro-MJ during my first two months or so on the board. No one called me a closet Laker/Kobe fan when all I was doing was posting in Bulls-Celtics game threads. Now I am a nefarious character with a secret plan to elevate Kobe past Jordan (which will never happen in the eyes of real basketball fans, although public opinion is another matter)?

You are being too conspiratorial. There are a lot people interested in past NBA legends and old games. Fatal does watch old games. He has YouTube channel where he uploads things from them. A lot of people watch old games. Da Realist also has a YouTube channel of lots of old games. I believe I have seen juju posting on one of those channels. Fatal is a student of the game. What is wrong with that? There are several people here who are. ShaqAttack is very knowledgeable about past legends, clearly watched them play (I doubt he is old enough to have seen them contemporaneously, except maybe the mid to late 80's). He too uses a lot of stats. Is he doing it for an agenda or because he loves the game? I think Fatal is the same way. Knowledge once acquired can be used for a variety of ways but I doubt anyone spends hours watching old games to attack someone. Regarding stats, you can look them up quickly. They are all on basketballreference.com so it doesn't take hours to look up stats. Using knowledge and stats doesn't mean they are obsessed with attacking a player. OldSchool/Loki (why are people so sure he is "Loki" anyway?) uses his knowledgeable for Jordan and against Pippen and Kobe. I doubt he watches old games for that purpose but that is what he chooses to use it for.

The "diminish MJ to elevate" Kobe theory is something I've never understood. This is why some cannot fathom that people would actually be a Pippen fan, even though he arguably was the third most popular player of the 90's. They think it is part of a nefarious plan to diminsh MJ and elevate Kobe. How? If Jordan slips from consensus GOAT to consensus 3rd or 5th what difference does that make? Kobe remains consensus 10th-12th. What is the point? If their intent is to elevate Kobe they would be going after Hakeem and Duncan right now. Do you even see anyone here claiming Kobe is better than Jordan? I haven't seen anyone who has MJ outside their top 5 all-time and other than that gimmick BlackMamba24 I can't think of anyone who has him in their top 5. So what is with this strange theory? And what does Pippen have to do with it? Jordan is still Jordan even if Pippen gets more respect. No one is saying Pippen was better than Jordan so MJ will still get most of the credit for the 90's Bulls. How long has this stuff been going on???

BTW, regarding that point. From what I heard when I got here the Pippen stuff began after Jordan fans began saying Kobe needed Shaq. What did they expect? Of course the logical response is to say Jordan needed Pippen. How come MJ fans couldn't see that coming?


Your post(#242) is the first time I've actually seen you acknowledge someone else's post that is opposed to your opinion instead of immediately trying to counter argue.

You exaggerate (if I was that bad why would anyone post with me? Just put me on ignore) because you view me through hostile lens but I do agree and have realized that I have tended to be too aggressive and argumentative in my posting. I will try to tone it down.

I don't know if this post makes sense but it is 3 am :oldlol:

[Blzrfn]

Quote:
That would put the Rockets in the catbird seat by the Summer of 1984, and they would have the top two picks in the draft, and would probably drafted Hakeem and Jordan.

That almost happened anyway. There was a proposed trade of Ralph Sampson to Portland in exchange for the #2 pick and Clyde Drexler. The #2 pick would have wound up being Jordan. They rated MJ higher than Bowie due to the latter's injury problems. Besides, with Hakeem as the #1 pick selecting Bowie would be redudant. So you would have Hakeem, MJ, and Drexler playing their entire careers together. Wow! There was a thread on this hypothetical a few months ago and 0 MJ fans cried about that (in fact they were talking about "a decade's worth of championships") but don't worry, MJ fans have no agenda." Quote


Why were the Blazers thinking about giving the Rockets the #2 pick AND Drexler for Sampson? That would have made them look three times worse than they did for passing up MJ for Bowie.

[guy]

Your whole argument is based on obscure stats of what happens when the player isn't even on the floor. Ironic.



You mean Michael Jordan? His biggest impact happened after 95 and 01??? The same guy that retired in 93 amongst the chorus that he was the greatest ever (or at least in the discussion)? Are we talking about the same person?



No...there's more context than what you are reading in Sam Smith's book. In fact, there are 10 books that hype the positive affects MJ had on the team to every one that highlights a negative.

There's a ton of evidence that goes against what you're saying. From 89 - 93 he averaged more assists than Scottie Pippen did. You're going to have to find a way to dispute how he was selfish despite that evidence. And if assists don't matter, then it shouldnt' matter for anyone. You can't get assists without passing the ball.

Was he selfish because he wanted the offense to go through him? Then so was Magic Johnson. Was he selfish because he thought the best way for the team to win was for him to shoot the ball? Well, having a higher fg%, a better work ethic, a more insatiable lust to win and nerves of steel would convince a young player with that much talent that might be the best option. Was he selfish because he didn't embrace the triangle at first? Well, neither did Scottie Pippen.

Do you know that no championship team was ever built around a guard before Jordan? Do you realize that Chicago had to go against conventional wisdom because they didn't have a reliable big man? Do you know that Chicago was a perpetual losing franchise before Jordan got there? Have you read any quotes of how the team had a losing attitude and had players that did not like/want to compete? Do you know how hard it is to turn a franchise completely around? Around a GUARD?

Don't you think a losing franchise that had never won anything would take some time to figure out how to win going against conventional wisdom (i.e. building around a guard)? The Lakers had won titles before Kareem got there. Maybe not the year or two before, but there were members of the organization that were there that knew how to win. The Celtics had won before Bird. The only championship team that also had to go against conventional wisdom and build a champion from scratch is the Detroit Pistons. And it took them from 1982 (when Isiah was drafted) to 1989 to finally get their ring.

This slow progress should not be put all on Jordan's shoulders when he was so productive on the court. He and the team from the top down had to learn how to win together. That takes time. Pippen did not come in at the beginning of the process and didn't really make much of a contribution for a couple of years. You can't compare anyone to MJ's situation because there's no one else that was in MJ's situation.

That's what we mean when we say you don't understand the context. As great as youtube and espnclassic is, you can't get everything from watching that. You can't just look at the win/loss record before and after a star's absence to determine impact. And to understand it better, you have to go beyond reading one book meant to make money off displaying negative aspects of his personality. There's much more to it than that.

Notice how all the guys you mention are big guys down low? Bird, Kareem, David Robinson, etc? That's because that is how the NBA used to be won. Until Jordan. Kobe, Lebron, DWade all have MORE impact on their teams (in absence, by your logic) because of what MJ did with the Bulls. At least they have a blueprint for how to build around a perimeter-oriented player. That's not IMPACT?

Great post :applause:

[guy]

I know I said this discussion is over but just to clarify......





That is the point. That is the reason I brought him up. There are different expectations for a second-tier, top 20-25 all-time great like KG and a top-tier great like MJ. I could have used other examples to make the same point.


Yes you brought up KG, and for no apparent reason at all, which is what I was saying. No one was equating what KG did in 04 to what Jordan did in 89 except for you. They weren't equal situations. KG had a good supporting cast, Jordan didn't. When a great player ("second-tier" as you put it) like KG has a good enough supporting cast like the 04 Wolves you can expect them to make at least the conference Finals. Jordan's expectations with a supporting cast that good is that they win a title. But instead, Jordan had the 89 Bulls, and since he's a "top-tier" great (GOAT candidate), the expectations are that in certain years he can impact them enough to make the conference Finals with that team, which he did do (In a weak year for the East like 07, you can probably expect them to go the Finals just like Lebron did with the Cavs, which is why I said that situation is more comparable). No one was equating what both did except for you. No one was saying that we should have equal expectations for both of them.



I admitted my BS. Can you admit yours?

1) You're implying he was not legit top 5, that he needed injuries to move into the top 5. What was he in your view? Top 7? Top 8?
2) What about 91-93' and 98'? Top 10?


How's it bs?

94 - top 5, only Hakeem and Robinson were better IMO.
95 - top 5, only Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone were better IMO.
96 - top 5, only Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone were better IMO. But if Shaq was healthy, he'd be in there, and I'd take Pippen out of the top 5.
97 - top 5, only Jordan, Malone, Hakeem, and arguably Hill were better. If Shaq was healthy he'd be in there taking Hill or Pippen's spot. I could give Robinson that Shaq label as well, but he missed pretty much the whole season, so thats a bit unfair.

91 - top 10, Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, KJ, Ewing, and arguably Stockton are better. Hakeem when healthy might bump him or Stockton off.
92 - top 10, Jordan, Drexler, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone are better.
93 - top 10, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and Malone were better.
98 - Not top 10. Sorry, hard to put a guy that missed almost half the season in the top 10. Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Payton, Hill, Miller, Kidd, Hardaway were better. If Pippen doesn't miss nearly half the season, he's clearly better then Miller, Hardaway, and Kidd, and probably better then Payton and Hill.

Its not like I put a bunch of nobodies ahead of him, like Steve Smith or Mookie Blaylock like trolls do. For the most part, the main reason he's not such a sure-fire top 5 player is cause of Jordan + all the great centers that played in this era. He's ahead of alot of the players that I mentioned in certain years. He surpasses Drexler after 92, Barkley and Ewing after 93, he's ahead of Shaq until 95, etc.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why were the Blazers thinking about giving the Rockets the #2 pick AND Drexler for Sampson? That would have made them look three times worse than they did for passing up MJ for Bowie.

Yeah it would look even worse. :oldlol: They almost did it for two reasons (Houston in the end turned it down) because they believed they needed a franchise center and more importantly Sampson was very highly rated at the time. He was considered the next dominant big man, another Kareem or Walton. Drexler was a 9 ppg scorer as a rookie so he wasn't Clyde as we later knew him so on paper at the time it made some sense. Of course Drexler became a superstar, injuries ruined Sampson, and Jordan ended up being the majority GOAT!

I see your point, guy, and as I said to DR I was placing too much emphasis on the "direct impact" angle anyway.



94 - top 5, only Hakeem and Robinson were better IMO.
95 - top 5, only Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone were better IMO.
96 - top 5, only Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone were better IMO. But if Shaq was healthy, he'd be in there, and I'd take Pippen out of the top 5.
97 - top 5, only Jordan, Malone, Hakeem, and arguably Hill were better. If Shaq was healthy he'd be in there taking Hill or Pippen's spot. I could give Robinson that Shaq label as well, but he missed pretty much the whole season, so thats a bit unfair.

91 - top 10, Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, KJ, Ewing, and arguably Stockton are better. Hakeem when healthy might bump him or Stockton off.
92 - top 10, Jordan, Drexler, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone are better.
93 - top 10, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and Malone were better.
98 - Not top 10. Sorry, hard to put a guy that missed almost half the season in the top 10. Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Payton, Hill, Miller, Kidd, Hardaway were better. If Pippen doesn't miss nearly half the season, he's clearly better then Miller, Hardaway, and Kidd, and probably better then Payton and Hill.

Its not like I put a bunch of nobodies ahead of him, like Steve Smith or Mookie Blaylock like trolls do. For the most part, the main reason he's not such a sure-fire top 5 player is cause of Jordan + all the great centers that played in this era. He's ahead of alot of the players that I mentioned in certain years. He surpasses Drexler after 92, Barkley and Ewing after 93, he's ahead of Shaq until 95, etc.

I agree. It is difficult to compare the value of a perimeter player to that of a big man, especially a center because they do different things, especially since in Pippen's case his job was to pass-first, score-second so he wasn't scoring 25 ppg.

I pretty much agree with your rankings, although I have always believed Hill was overrated during that time. Pippen was similar to him offensively but far superior defensively so I considered Pip the best SF until 98'. I think a lot of the Hill hype was because he and Penny were the chosen successors to Jordan as the faces of the league.

From your rankings if you limit it to perimeter players he does really well: 4/5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2/3, 2/3-4 if healthy. This was in a great era for centers (Mourning and Mutumbo too and even someone like Smits or Seikley was no slouch). Imagine if MJ and Pippen were born 10-15 years later and were playing on today's perimeter-oriented league! :bowdown:

Yeah when I said top 10 in 98' I meant talent-wise.

[guy]

Yeah it would look even worse. :oldlol: They almost did it for two reasons (Houston in the end turned it down) because they believed they needed a franchise center and more importantly Sampson was very highly rated at the time. He was considered the next dominant big man, another Kareem or Walton. Drexler was a 9 ppg scorer as a rookie so he wasn't Clyde as we later knew him so on paper at the time it made some sense. Of course Drexler became a superstar, injuries ruined Sampson, and Jordan ended up being the majority GOAT!

I see your point, guy, and as I said to DR I was placing too much emphasis on the "direct impact" angle anyway.



I agree. It is difficult to compare the value of a perimeter player to that of a big man, especially a center because they do different things, especially since in Pippen's case his job was to pass-first, score-second so he wasn't scoring 25 ppg.

I pretty much agree with your rankings, although I have always believed Hill was overrated during that time. Pippen was similar to him offensively but far superior defensively so I considered Pip the best SF until 98'. I think a lot of the Hill hype was because he and Penny were the chosen successors to Jordan as the faces of the league.

From your rankings if you limit it to perimeter players he does really well: 4/5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2/3, 2/3-4 if healthy. This was in a great era for centers (Mourning and Mutumbo too and even someone like Smits or Seikley was no slouch). Imagine if MJ and Pippen were born 10-15 years later and were playing on today's perimeter-oriented league! :bowdown:

Yeah when I said top 10 in 98' I meant talent-wise.

Cool. I just wanted to bump this topic to tell you that you should really read the Book of Basketball by Bill Simmons. He has a great chapter in there talking about the "motivation" of teams, specifically championship teams (its the chapter about the greatest teams around pg 600). It doesn't specifically mention the 93 and 94 Bulls, but I think after reading that, you should get a great idea of how huge of an impact the motivation of a team is. Taking motivation into account, it shows that team record may significantly understate or overstate what a team is capable of.