Legendary John Wooden says Kobe is the GOAT

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ElUmrpZEU

Let the riot begin.:oldlol:

[Rekindled]

i doubt he has watched any nba games last couple years. he probably just hear about kobe being goat from laker fans everyday since he lives in LA area.

[west]

That voice......Is that KB42PAH?

[CLE[216]]

That's like, his opinion, man.

[1987_Lakers]

That voice......Is that KB42PAH?

Sounds like the dude from Curb Your Enthusiasm.

[Posterize246]

Senile.

[Roundball_Rock]

*Wipes away a tear*

This is the day I have been waiting for. The GOAT college coach has come out for Kobe as the GOAT. It is only a matter of time until everyone realizes this. Move over MJ. :rockon:

This was sarcasm for my MJ fan pals who didn't get it!

[33824]

Sounds like the dude from Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Marty Funkhouser

[NBASTATMAN]

*Wipes away a tear*

This is the day I have been waiting for. The GOAT college coach has come out for Kobe as the GOAT. It is only a matter of time until everyone realizes this. Move over MJ. :rockon:

This was sarcasm for my MJ fan pals who didn't get it!


He qualified it with from a physical standpoint.. He has also written that Bill Walton was the best he has ever seen.... Need I write anything else...

[Disaprine]

woah :roll:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/HumanTorch.gif

FLAME ON

[Lakers13]

Dont forget to say 3 Hail Kobe's before you go to bed tonight boys.

[NBASTATMAN]

*Wipes away a tear*

This is the day I have been waiting for. The GOAT college coach has come out for Kobe as the GOAT. It is only a matter of time until everyone realizes this. Move over MJ. :rockon:

This was sarcasm for my MJ fan pals who didn't get it!


The GOAT talent evaluator Jerry West has stated that MJ is the best ever and only Lebron can surpass him...:applause:

[Fatal9]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?

[jmill]

The GOAT talent evaluator Jerry West has stated that MJ is the best ever and only Lebron can surpass him...:applause:

And yet both are wrong. Funny how that works.

[Showtime]

When you constantly seek validation, then you are probably wrong. If Kobe was GOAT, it wouldn't need to be debated. When a player comes along that surpasses MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, etc, it won't need to be debated.

[Bigsmoke]

old timers

[Roundball_Rock]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?

The bold part is what terrifies you-know-who. When you live by mass media, you die by mass media.

I don't agree with Wooden (Kareem is the GOAT imo) but his opinion can't be summarily dismissed, for the reasons you cited. Wooden even coached Kareem yet he has concluded Kobe is the GOAT? :eek:


When a player comes along that surpasses MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, etc, it won't need to be debated.

What is your reasoning for that? When Lebron surpassed Kobe as the best player in the league there was a debate. There always will be debate about such things--especially during a transitional period.

[NBASTATMAN]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?


I have written that I believe kobe would wind up 5-7 all time list .. I agree with Jerry west.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?

:oldlol:

[NBASTATMAN]

The bold part is what terrifies you-know-who. When you live by mass media, you die by mass media.

I don't agree with Wooden (Kareem is the GOAT imo) but his opinion can't be summarily dismissed, for the reasons you cited. Wooden even coached Kareem yet he has concluded Kobe is the GOAT? :eek:



What is your reasoning for that? When Lebron surpassed Kobe as the best player in the league there was a debate. There always will be debate about such things--especially during a transitional period.


Wooden has written that Walton was the best all around player ever.... :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Wooden has written that Walton was the best all around player ever.... :roll:

When healthy, Walton was definitely the best all around center in the NBA.

[Showtime]

What is your reasoning for that?

My reasoning is that because those players were so great and accomplished so much, if a player comes along that is DEFINITIVELY superior, then he will play at a level so far ahead of his peers and accomplish more to the point where it doesn't need to be a debate.

I don't consider MJ the definitive GOAT, because I feel players like KAJ are in the conversation because of their own accomplishments. So for somebody to leap the GOAT candidates, then that player will do so much that it won't be questionable.


When Lebron surpassed Kobe as the best player in the league there was a debate. There always will be debate about such things--especially during a transitional period.
Not about this. When somebody says Kobe is the greatest ever, they better come at the argument with something more than work ethic.

"He's never seen anybody work that hard on offense and defense and the complete game."

If you want to talk about work ethic, I would like to hear how he's more dedicated than Jordan who had an uncanny work ethic. And I find it ironic that Wooden made those comments about Kobe considering he's been showing a lackluster effort on defense depending on the situation. With that being said, we don't even know if Wooden actually said those exact things, because this is a guy paraphrasing him in a hearsay convo.

[ShaqAttack3234]

- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too).

What makes you say that? Right now, only a small percentage consider him better than Jordan, chances are Kobe's individual statistics, MVP's, finals MVP's and scoring titles will pale in comparison to Jordan's, he won't be remembered nearly as influential as Jordan and he was not considered the best player in the league by the majority for more than 2-3 years, if that. Jordan on the other hand was considered in the league for about a decade and he was considered the greatest to ever play the game by most by the time of his first retirement.

Kobe's chances of being remembered by most as the greatest player ever are slim.

[rfm767]

When you constantly seek validation, then you are probably wrong. If Kobe was GOAT, it wouldn't need to be debated. When a player comes along that surpasses MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, etc, it won't need to be debated.

NEVER understimate the power of the nostalgia side.

[Mark Madsen]

:lol @ PAH being there

[Jacks3]

Wooden is absolutely right. Kobe is the greatest basketball player who ever lived. He's as close to a perfect player as we'll ever see. :bowdown:

[NBASTATMAN]

What makes you say that? Right now, only a small percentage consider him better than Jordan, chances are Kobe's individual statistics, MVP's, finals MVP's and scoring titles will pale in comparison to Jordan's, he won't be remembered nearly as influential as Jordan and he was not considered the best player in the league by the majority for more than 2-3 years, if that. Jordan on the other hand was considered in the league for about a decade and he was considered the greatest to ever play the game by most by the time of his first retirement.

Kobe's chances of being remembered by most as the greatest player ever are slim.


Slim to none... Fatal is a kobe STAN... With a kobe tat ....

[Showtime]

So in 20 years, when Kobe and Lebron have retired, and some athletic freak is the best player in the league, and Phil Jackson says he's the best player he's ever seen, I'm assuming everybody is going to agree with him, right?

I mean, Mark Jackson said PP = Bird on offense.

[Fatal9]

So in 20 years, when Kobe and Lebron have retired, and some athletic freak is the best player in the league, and Phil Jackson says he's the best player he's ever seen, I'm assuming everybody is going to agree with him, right?
Whether I agree with him or not doesn't matter (and I don't agree with Wooden here). I'd accept it as a valid opinion based on the fact that it's Phil Jackson though.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Sorry, but he is incorrect.

[Brandon Roy]

Wow. I never thought I'd be saying these 2 sentences:

Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play basketball.

It is not absurd anymore to argue that Kobe might be the GOAT.

I know that one of the purposes of this board is so that people can argue (passionately) about stuff like this, but I think we've come to a point where arguing passionately against the notion that Kobe might be the GOAT is absurd and homer-like. I feel like there are maybe 6 or 7 players that someone can argue to be the GOAT, and Kobe is one of them.

I don't know what surprises me more: John Wooden calling Kobe the GOAT or Bill Simmons actually respecting and liking Kobe. This is monumental in the basketball world. I cannot emphasize enough how crazy this is.

[Showtime]

And again, I will restate this:

We have no quote of Wooden. We have a paraphrase from somebody relating the conversation. We have no idea what Wooden actually said about Kobe.

And let's assume he said exactly what that guy said he said. That means Wooden's reasoning is based upon work ethic in all areas of the game, and that's a very subjective and limited criteria for GOAT.

[NBASTATMAN]

Wooden is 99 years old........ Guy doesn't even remember magic, bird or mj playing....

[globarticles]

ay ya gotta understand dude said it over breakfast. after being asked likely a millions times by evrybody he dont care no more. he just say whoeva come to mind. next day he gonna say magic or hakeem da best.

[NBASTATMAN]

ay ya gotta understand dude said it over breakfast. after being asked likely a millions times by evrybody he dont care no more. he just say whoeva come to mind. next day he gonna say magic or hakeem da best.



Has anyone even heard him say this... Either way I think Kobe will wind up 5-7 all time.. But if he gets punked again in the Finals than I don't know...

[Mark Madsen]

John Wooden? Who's that? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

What makes you say that? Right now, only a small percentage consider him better than Jordan, chances are Kobe's individual statistics, MVP's, finals MVP's and scoring titles will pale in comparison to Jordan's, he won't be remembered nearly as influential as Jordan and he was not considered the best player in the league by the majority for more than 2-3 years, if that. Jordan on the other hand was considered in the league for about a decade and he was considered the greatest to ever play the game by most by the time of his first retirement.

Kobe's chances of being remembered by most as the greatest player ever are slim.

I agree with him. Two words: mass media. Why do you think in every sport--whether it is basketball, football, hockey, NASCAR, F1, golf, or tennis (the only exception is baseball and that is because of the steroids era anomaly)--the majority GOAT just happened to be around in the past 20-25 years? It isn't a string of amazing coincidences or that generation in a given sport was not better than every previous one. The decisive factor was mass media. The most recent top-tier great gets the most hype and this converts most people into believing he is the GOAT. The other factor, albeit a lesser one, is recency. People simply remember what they saw most recently better. In some cases they may never have seen a previous great. It is easier to say MJ or Tiger is the GOAT when you remember his greatness compared to other greats who you did not see contemporaneously. Therefore:

Basketball: Kobe? Lebron?>Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Football QB's: Manning? or Brady?>Montanta>Unitas
Hockey: Gretzky>Howe
NASCAR: Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
F1: Hamilton?>Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Golf: Tiger>Nicklaus>whoever was before that (Jones?)
Tennis: Federer>Sampras>whoever was before that (McEnroe?)


My reasoning is that because those players were so great and accomplished so much, if a player comes along that is DEFINITIVELY superior, then he will play at a level so far ahead of his peers and accomplish more to the point where it doesn't need to be a debate.

There will always be a debate, though, especially when a player approaches the top group. I think what he meant was that he may become the majority GOAT the same way Jordan surpassed, in the eyes of the public, the other GOAT candidates.


Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play basketball.

It is not absurd anymore to argue that Kobe might be the GOAT.

I know that one of the purposes of this board is so that people can argue (passionately) about stuff like this, but I think we've come to a point where arguing passionately against the notion that Kobe might be the GOAT is absurd and homer-like. I feel like there are maybe 6 or 7 players that someone can argue to be the GOAT, and Kobe is one of them.

I don't know what surprises me more: John Wooden calling Kobe the GOAT or Bill Simmons actually respecting and liking Kobe. This is monumental in the basketball world. I cannot emphasize enough how crazy this i

This is happening. No one was talking about Kobe cracking the top 5 of all-time a year ago but now it is viewed as a very likely possibility. Opinions change. Kobe is going to get an increasing amount of hype as long as he keeps winning championships. When he gets to 6 you can bet ESPN will have a 24/7 "Kobe vs. Jordan" marathon on its talk shows.

The same thing is happening right now in NASCAR. Jimmie Johnson is now being called the GOAT by some. Two years ago, even a year ago, that would be laughable.

[phoenix18]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?

I have to quote this.

Anyways, just like always, here WE are in ANOTHER thread about a QUOTE about Kobe.

I would just like to say this to all in this thread. I......





dont care.

Now you might ask why? Phoenix you loooove basketball, why dont you care?

I am tired of these lists and all of he said she said garbage.

BTW, John Wooden is a great coach and all, but stop hyping the dude up just because he said something positive about Kobe.

Find a hobby or something. Everytime someone says something positive about Kobe, you start slurping them as if they were the Mamba.


Yes, I am talking to you Fatal. You're not slick. We all know your agenda.

[Allstar24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ElUmrpZEU

Let the riot begin.:oldlol:
I'm surprised that Bill Simmons didn't take that opportunity to bash Kobe.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This thread is more evidence as to why Kobe fans are the lowest form of life on Earth. They'll cling to anything that will elevate Kobe to a height he hasn't ever come CLOSE to reaching. Sad.

[Jacks3]

lol the irony.

[Roundball_Rock]

lol the irony.

Beat me to it. :oldlol:

[Killbot]

Who the sh!t is John Wooden?

It sounds like he's an attention whore.

[lbj23clutch]

Most people consider MJ to be the GOAT, so it doesn't really matter. MJ has said LeBron has the potential to be GOAT, but even coming from the GOAT himself, most people know LeBron will never be as good as MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

Most people consider MJ to be the GOAT, so it doesn't really matter.

It does matter. Most people consider MJ the GOAT due to the mass media campaign. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact in the media. The media made him the GOAT and they will displace him with another player. Things like Wooden's comment gets the ball rolling for the media hype machine. Do you remember the "Kobe chasing MJ's 6 rings" hype last summer? What is implicit in that is that if he gets to 6 he=MJ and if he surpasses that...The media has set this up. I am pretty sure in 10-20 years MJ will no longer be the majority GOAT. The same forces the made him the majority GOAT will displace him with Lebron or Kobe. I for one will love watching MJ fans squirm as it happens, whether it is Lebron or Kobe. :D

[Soopa]

:oldlol: Jordan fanatics are furious! God forbid anyone else have there own opinion and say someone besides Jordan is the GOAT.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree with him. Two words: mass media. Why do you think in every sport--whether it is basketball, football, hockey, NASCAR, F1, golf, or tennis (the only exception is baseball and that is because of the steroids era anomaly)--the majority GOAT just happened to be around in the past 20-25 years? It isn't a string of amazing coincidences or that generation in a given sport was not better than every previous one. The decisive factor was mass media. The most recent top-tier great gets the most hype and this converts most people into believing he is the GOAT. The other factor, albeit a lesser one, is recency. People simply remember what they saw most recently better. In some cases they may never have seen a previous great. It is easier to say MJ or Tiger is the GOAT when you remember his greatness compared to other greats who you did not see contemporaneously. Therefore:

Basketball: Kobe? Lebron?>Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Football QB's: Manning? or Brady?>Montanta>Unitas
Hockey: Gretzky>Howe
NASCAR: Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
F1: Hamilton?>Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Golf: Tiger>Nicklaus>whoever was before that (Jones?)
Tennis: Federer>Sampras>whoever was before that (McEnroe?)


Except you don't see Kobe hyped as the greatest to ever play much by the media. A lot of people were calling Jordan the greatest to ever player the game even in the late 80's. I remember the majority thinking that by the time Jordan won his 3rd title. That was when Jordan was 30 and had 9 seasons under his belt. Kobe is 31 and in his 14th season. If he was going to be remembered as the greatest to play the game by the majority then I'd think we'd hear more of it by now.

Plus Kobe isn't as likeable or marketable as Jordan. You don't see Kobe Bryant commercials all across TV like you saw Jordan commercials. Remember all of those Ballpark hotdogs, Hanes, McDonalds commercials ect.?

[ProfessorMurder]

:oldlol: Jordan fanatics are furious! God forbid anyone else have there own opinion and say someone besides Jordan is the GOAT.

It's the fact that everyone gorging on Kobe's balls starts a thread whenever someone says he's the best. It's f*cking annoying.

Would you want a thread every two minutes of a quote saying Jordan is the best? No.

If everyone just stopped making these threads this site would be infinitely better.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol the irony.

What irony? Do you even know what the word means? What heights did Jordan not come close to reaching? Jordan proved everything there is to prove on the court in terms of production, accolades, and winning (the 3 main components of GOAT rankings). Kobe hasn't even come close in any respect.

[DavisWarriorsFan]

John Wooden? Who's that? :oldlol:
You're an idiot if you don't know who John Wooden is.

[DavisWarriorsFan]

Who the sh!t is John Wooden?

It sounds like he's an attention whore.
:no:

[lbj23clutch]

It does matter. Most people consider MJ the GOAT due to the mass media campaign. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact in the media. The media made him the GOAT and they will displace him with another player. Things like Wooden's comment gets the ball rolling for the media hype machine. Do you remember the "Kobe chasing MJ's 6 rings" hype last summer? What is implicit in that is that if he gets to 6 he=MJ and if he surpasses that...The media has set this up. I am pretty sure in 10-20 years MJ will no longer be the majority GOAT. The same forces the made him the majority GOAT will displace him with Lebron or Kobe. I for one will love watching MJ fans squirm as it happens, whether it is Lebron or Kobe. :D
The media has nothing to do with most people thinking MJ as bieng the consious GOAT, people who have watched his games and have seen all of his accomplishments, know he has earned his legendary GOAT status. Media didn't give MJ this status, he has earned them with his 6 rings, 6 finals MVP's, 5 league MVP's, 10 scoring titles, 2 gold medals, and I can go on and on, but his accomplishments are immeasurable and this is just only one of plenty of other reasons why most people conclude him to be the GOAT.

[lbj23clutch]

Except you don't see Kobe hyped as the greatest to ever play much by the media. A lot of people were calling Jordan the greatest to ever player the game even in the late 80's. I remember the majority thinking that by the time Jordan won his 3rd title. That was when Jordan was 30 and had 9 seasons under his belt. Kobe is 31 and in his 14th season. If he was going to be remembered as the greatest to play the game by the majority then I'd think we'd hear more of it by now.

Plus Kobe isn't as likeable or marketable as Jordan. You don't see Kobe Bryant commercials all across TV like you saw Jordan commercials. Remember all of those Ballpark hotdogs, Hanes, McDonalds commercials ect.?
Great post. :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Except you don't see Kobe hyped as the greatest to ever play much by the media

Yeah but remember the "Kobe chasing MJ" hype last summer? The implication is that if Kobe can get to 6 or even more he is equal to or better than Jordan.

The significance of Wooden's comment is that it will push the ball forward. Most people today would not be surprised if Kobe winds up top 5 all-time. A year ago few people believed that.

I agree that Kobe did not have as much hype and no one in sports history has had as big a marketing campaign behind him as MJ. Kobe's ascension, if it happens, would be a bit odd for these reasons. Lebron rising to the mass media GOAT is more predictable, but if Kobe can get to 6 or more rings than the media will have to call an audible, if only temporarily. Kobe vs. MJ is a great story that delivers ratings.


It's the fact that everyone gorging on Kobe's balls starts a thread whenever someone says he's the best. It's f*cking annoying.

How is that any different than MJ fans shooting down any other great player when someone says another player is the GOAT (i.e. the Kareem GOAT thread)?

Someone saying MJ is the GOAT is not news; a person with the prestige of Wooden saying Kobe is the GOAT is news, at least at this point


What heights did Jordan not come close to reaching? Jordan proved everything there is to prove on the court in terms of production, accolades, and winning (the 3 main components of GOAT rankings). Kobe hasn't even come close in any respect

Jordan never reached the Gretzky height that MJ fans pretend he did by declaring him the "clear GOAT" and scoffing at any other GOAT candidate's case. MJ fans cling to anything to maintain their view. Look at the emphasis they place on FMVP's simply because MJ conveniently has more of them than anyone else and because he is unlikely to ever be eclipsed in that regard because it is hard to fathom another top-tier great having as great luck as Jordan did.


The media has nothing to do with most people thinking MJ as bieng the consious GOAT,

Do you really believe that?

Federer>Sampras>everyone before that
Tiger>Nicklaus>Jones?>everyone before that
Manning or Brady?>Montana>Unitas
Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Gretzky>Howe>everyone before that

Is it just a coincidence the most recent top-tier great always wins? The media has nothing to do with it? There is a consistent sequential trend in sport after sport (except baseball).

[Abraham Lincoln]

It does matter. Most people consider MJ the GOAT due to the mass media campaign. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact in the media. The media made him the GOAT and they will displace him with another player. Things like Wooden's comment gets the ball rolling for the media hype machine. Do you remember the "Kobe chasing MJ's 6 rings" hype last summer? What is implicit in that is that if he gets to 6 he=MJ and if he surpasses that...The media has set this up. I am pretty sure in 10-20 years MJ will no longer be the majority GOAT. The same forces the made him the majority GOAT will displace him with Lebron or Kobe. I for one will love watching MJ fans squirm as it happens, whether it is Lebron or Kobe. :D
Sorry Bryant fan, but nobody aside from marquee superstar ass kissers give a damn about perception over the proper reality. That indeed includes Jordan fans and Bryant fans like yourself.

[ProfessorMurder]

How is that any different than MJ fans shooting down any other great player when someone says another player is the GOAT (i.e. the Kareem GOAT thread)?

Someone saying MJ is the GOAT is not news; a person with the prestige of Wooden saying Kobe is the GOAT is news, at least at this point

I said I didn't like either. But for the record shooting down a player is easier than propping one up out of his league(i.e. this thread).

Wooden having an OPINION doesn't make it news, or a fact. Nothing in the world is different than before he said it.

[Jacks3]

What irony? Do you even know what the word means? What heights did Jordan not come close to reaching? Jordan proved everything there is to prove on the court in terms of production, accolades, and winning (the 3 main components of GOAT rankings). Kobe hasn't even come close in any respect.
You're right. You're just a hypocrite.:oldlol:

[amfirst]

I'm surprise the Jordan groupies haven't bust out the stat sheets. :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah but remember the "Kobe chasing MJ" hype last summer? The implication is that if Kobe can get to 6 or even more he is equal to or better than Jordan.

The significance of Wooden's comment is that it will push the ball forward. Most people today would not be surprised if Kobe winds up top 5 all-time. A year ago few people believed that.

I agree that Kobe did not have as much hype and no one in sports history has had as big a marketing campaign behind him as MJ. Kobe's ascension, if it happens, would be a bit odd for these reasons. Lebron rising to the mass media GOAT is more predictable, but if Kobe can get to 6 or more rings than the media will have to call an audible, if only temporarily. Kobe vs. MJ is a great story that delivers ratings.


I could see Lebron ending up being considered the best player to play the game if he wins a few championships, particularly in New York, but I don't see it happening with Kobe.

And personally I see almost no chance of Kobe being a top 5 player when it's all said and done. I don't see what he could do that would rank him above Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird or Wilt. Honestly, I don't see myself ranking him over Olajuwon.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry Bryant fan, but nobody aside from marquee superstar ass kissers give a damn about perception over the proper reality. That indeed includes Jordan fans and Bryant fans like yourself.

Perception is reality.

I couldn't care less if Kobe becomes the mass media GOAT. Whether it is Lebron, Kobe, John Wall, or whoever I will just be laughing through the whole process at the reaction from MJ fans. :rockon:

How can anyone really think it is just a coincidence that the "majority GOAT" in every sport just happens to be the most recent top-tier great? :confusedshrug:


I could see Lebron ending up being considered the best player to play the game if he wins a few championships, particularly in New York, but I don't see it happening with Kobe.

And personally I see almost no chance of Kobe being a top 5 player when it's all said and done. I don't see what he could do that would rank him above Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird or Wilt. Honestly, I don't see myself ranking him over Olajuwon.

You are a student of the game. You won't be influenced by what ESPN or some columnist says--most fans, though, will. I am referring to the masses, not people like you.

I agree that it would be odd to suddenly hype him as the GOAT or even a GOAT candidate and Lebron would be more logical but if Kobe gets to 6 rings it will be too tempting a story for the sports media.

[lbj23clutch]

Yeah but remember the "Kobe chasing MJ" hype last summer? The implication is that if Kobe can get to 6 or even more he is equal to or better than Jordan.
There was no such hype about Kobe chasing MJ if he would reach 6 rings. The only ones who acutally made that argument, were no suprisingly, the Kobe Stans and of course Fatal and his slave, Roundball. :oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Perception is reality.

How can anyone really think it is just a coincidence that the "majority GOAT" in every sport just happens to be the most recent top-tier great? :confusedshrug:
Not for the wise man.

Any educated fan can tell you he is not a top tier great at peak level. He has simply never reached the playing levels that Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Jordan, Bird, Johnson, or O'Neal have at some point during their careers. The same educated fan can also tell you there is no one player inarguably above the rest.

[chazzy]

You guys are crazy insecure. Let the guy have his own opinion, it's not like he crowned Kobe the official NBA undisputed inarguable GOAT.

[plowking]

It does matter. Most people consider MJ the GOAT due to the mass media campaign. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact in the media. The media made him the GOAT and they will displace him with another player. Things like Wooden's comment gets the ball rolling for the media hype machine. Do you remember the "Kobe chasing MJ's 6 rings" hype last summer? What is implicit in that is that if he gets to 6 he=MJ and if he surpasses that...The media has set this up. I am pretty sure in 10-20 years MJ will no longer be the majority GOAT. The same forces the made him the majority GOAT will displace him with Lebron or Kobe. I for one will love watching MJ fans squirm as it happens, whether it is Lebron or Kobe. :D


You that MJ is considered GOAT by 99% of people ---> :mad: :cry:

[Roundball_Rock]

There was no such hype about Kobe chasing MJ if he would reach 6 rings. The only ones who acutally made that argument, were no suprisingly, the Kobe Stans and of course Fatal and his slave, Roundball. :oldlol:

Ever watch ESPN talk shows or listen to sports radio??? It wasn't a drumbeat but it was discussed several times. It was "Kobe going for 4, trying to catch Jordan." No one said "If he gets 6 then..." but that was implicit. If Kobe wins his 6th ring does anyone here seriously think there won't be a surge of "Kobe vs. Jordan" stories?

I'll tell you what. Save this thread. When the Lakers get deep into the playoffs see if the "Kobe chasing Jordan" hype occurs. If he wins a 5th, note the media reaction. The storyline will be "He is now 1 behind Jordan, can he catch him next year?".


You guys are crazy insecure. Let the guy have his own opinion, it's not like he crowned Kobe the official NBA undisputed inarguable GOAT.

They are insecure because they know it is only a matter of time for the same forces that made Jordan the "clear GOAT" to replace him with another player.

[plowking]

Federer>Sampras>everyone before that
Tiger>Nicklaus>Jones?>everyone before that
Manning or Brady?>Montana>Unitas
Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Gretzky>Howe>everyone before that

Is it just a coincidence the most recent top-tier great always wins? The media has nothing to do with it? There is a consistent sequential trend in sport after sport (except baseball).

Is it a coincidence that the most recent top tier players you just mentioned have all accomplished more than their predecessors as well? Kobe hasn't. Point blank.

Federer has more titles and was more dominant during his stretch.
Same goes for Tiger.
Brady is a 3 time MVP, enough said. Manning a 4 time MVP...
Schumacher is the most successful formula 1 driver ever...
Jordan was more dominant during his stretch of play and was more successful than anyone before him. Why aren't Magic or Bird considered higher than Kareem on most people's list? Because its not simply the most recent that get put ahead as you claim you dumb ****.
Gretzky was the most dominant and accomplished player ever...

[Yuki Nagato]

Lakers fans always in another place than the rest of the world. Of course, 6 billion people (furious jordan stans, of course :rolleyes:) all over the planet are wrong.

Hail Kobe!

[plowking]

You guys are crazy insecure. Let the guy have his own opinion, it's not like he crowned Kobe the official NBA undisputed inarguable GOAT.

Of course not, that's Jordan, and its inarguable.

[Simple Jack]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?


Your posts never cease to amaze me. The agenda is not only clear, but you present it in a way that is laughable.

A professional opinion doesn't mean much. Just listen to what Walton has said, Pippen, Rodman, Marc Jackson, etc.

And why do you assume that 10 years down the road that Kobe will be the GOAT? He has done NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, to prove he is the greatest basketball player of all time. You know this, he knows this, we all know this.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lakers fans always in another place than the rest of the world. Of course, 6 billion people (furious jordan stans, of course :rolleyes:) all over the planet are wrong.

Hail Kobe!

That is the point. The mass support Jordan has as the "clear GOAT" is a product of the biggest marketing campaign in sports history and unprecedented media hype. It is naive to think these forces won't work in favor of another player in the future to displace Jordan. The obvious candidate is Lebron (has a huge marketing campaign, media hype from day 1, etc. all like MJ) but Kobe is a dark horse who has an outside shot if he can get to 6 or more rings.


And why do you assume that 10 years down the road that Kobe will be the GOAT? He has done NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, to prove he is the greatest basketball player of all time.

He understands how Jordan became the "clear GOAT."

[zabuza666]

Federer>Sampras>everyone before that
Tiger>Nicklaus>Jones?>everyone before that
Manning or Brady?>Montana>Unitas
Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Gretzky>Howe>everyone before that

Is it just a coincidence the most recent top-tier great always wins? The media has nothing to do with it? There is a consistent sequential trend in sport after sport (except baseball).

Have you ever considered that maybe this happens because the recent top-tier greats eclipse the accomplishments of the past? Honestly how thick are you?

Kobe however, hasn't done that; therefore he doesn't have any claim for GOAT

[Jacks3]

Of course not, that's Jordan, and its inarguable.
lol

[ZeN]

When you constantly seek validation, then you are probably wrong. If Kobe was GOAT, it wouldn't need to be debated. When a player comes along that surpasses MJ, KAJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, etc, it won't need to be debated.





''When you constantly seek validation, then you are probably wrong. If Kobe was GOAT, it wouldn't need to be debated. When a player comes along that surpasses MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, Wilt, etc, it won't need to be debated.''



Are you the same dude that posted on the youtube link? Or did you jack that?

[Simple Jack]

Wow. I never thought I'd be saying these 2 sentences:

Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play basketball.

It is not absurd anymore to argue that Kobe might be the GOAT.

I know that one of the purposes of this board is so that people can argue (passionately) about stuff like this, but I think we've come to a point where arguing passionately against the notion that Kobe might be the GOAT is absurd and homer-like. I feel like there are maybe 6 or 7 players that someone can argue to be the GOAT, and Kobe is one of them.

I don't know what surprises me more: John Wooden calling Kobe the GOAT or Bill Simmons actually respecting and liking Kobe. This is monumental in the basketball world. I cannot emphasize enough how crazy this is.


What has he done to be put into this discussion?

[Simple Jack]

Yeah but remember the "Kobe chasing MJ" hype last summer? The implication is that if Kobe can get to 6 or even more he is equal to or better than Jordan.

The significance of Wooden's comment is that it will push the ball forward. Most people today would not be surprised if Kobe winds up top 5 all-time. A year ago few people believed that.

I agree that Kobe did not have as much hype and no one in sports history has had as big a marketing campaign behind him as MJ. Kobe's ascension, if it happens, would be a bit odd for these reasons. Lebron rising to the mass media GOAT is more predictable, but if Kobe can get to 6 or more rings than the media will have to call an audible, if only temporarily. Kobe vs. MJ is a great story that delivers ratings.



How is that any different than MJ fans shooting down any other great player when someone says another player is the GOAT (i.e. the Kareem GOAT thread)?

Someone saying MJ is the GOAT is not news; a person with the prestige of Wooden saying Kobe is the GOAT is news, at least at this point



Jordan never reached the Gretzky height that MJ fans pretend he did by declaring him the "clear GOAT" and scoffing at any other GOAT candidate's case. MJ fans cling to anything to maintain their view. Look at the emphasis they place on FMVP's simply because MJ conveniently has more of them than anyone else and because he is unlikely to ever be eclipsed in that regard because it is hard to fathom another top-tier great having as great luck as Jordan did.



Do you really believe that?

Federer>Sampras>everyone before that
Tiger>Nicklaus>Jones?>everyone before that
Manning or Brady?>Montana>Unitas
Johnson?>Earnhardt>Petty>Jarrett
Schumacher>Senna>Stewart>Fangio
Jordan>Kareem>Russell>Mikan
Gretzky>Howe>everyone before that

Is it just a coincidence the most recent top-tier great always wins? The media has nothing to do with it? There is a consistent sequential trend in sport after sport (except baseball).

Federer has more majors and records set than Sampras. He also beat Sampras.

Tiger is a few majors away from Nicklaus with a whole career ahead of him.

I don't think people consider Brady or Manning the GOAT QB. Players like Montana, Marino, etc are still ranked above them.

Same goes for boxing.

Your logic is flawed.

[Roundball_Rock]

Have you ever considered that maybe this happens because the recent top-tier greats eclipse the accomplishments of the past? Honestly how thick are you?

You ask that and then call another thick? :roll:

Every one of those players/racers eclipsed the previous majority GOAT?

Nicklaus has more major wins than Tiger.
Earnhardt more championships than Johnson, Petty more wins than Earnhardt.
Federer and Sampras are comparable in terms of achievements.
Schumacher is better on paper than Senna but he won against lesser competition. Senna himself benefited from these forces. Prost=Senna but Senna was far more marketable.

Now to basketball.

Kareem has as many rings, more MVP's, better longevity, a better peak, won more in his career than Jordan. What did Jordan eclipse?

All of these guys have legit cases for GOAT but the notion that the most recent one is just better is laughable. The previous ones have similar credentials. Yet the latest one wins overwhelmingly in public opinion. The answer is obvious.

[Roundball_Rock]

Federer has more majors and records set than Sampras. He also beat Sampras.

Tiger is a few majors away from Nicklaus with a whole career ahead of him.

I don't think people consider Brady or Manning the GOAT QB. Players like Montana, Marino, etc are still ranked above them.

Same goes for boxing.

Your logic is flawed.

Yeah--Federer has ONE more major win than Sampras. Of course he beat Sampras. He was young, Sampras past his prime. That is like saying Kobe>Jordan because he "beat" him when Jordan was old.

Tiger is still behind him and there is no guarantee he will overtake him (0 majors last year...). Yet most people already consider him the GOAT.

I put Brady and Manning with question marks for that reason. Wait a few years as they approach retirement and the hype will begin. They are definitely in the conversation already. What made Montana "clearly better" than every QB in the decades before him?

I am unfamiliar with boxing so I can't comment.

In racing the same dynamic occurs.

You also start from the premise that being the GOAT is a numbers game. There are various other factors that should be looked at. However, the mass media often will cherry pick a number or two to make their point. In Kobe's case the number would be rings (since they deleted Russell's 11 from the popular record for the convenience of MJ).

[ZOMG]

John Wooden called Kobe the GOAT. Then he mistook his nurse for a coat rack and had his diaper changed.

:rolleyes:

[ZeN]

Hate the opinion.. Not the man..


Wooden deserves better respect than to be treated as old man who has 'lost it'.


At the very least shoot the messenger.. since he is telling the opinion without verification..

[plowking]

Manning has 3 MVP's in the regular season, one of only two players. That's why he's considered the best QB. Not to mention his stats are as good as any great QB.
Woods has been ridiculously dominant. Almost matching the number of titles, with a whole career ahead of him.
Sure Sampras and Federer are comparable, but you look at the dominant stretch that Federer did it through, and its clear that he had the more dominant peak, and more titles. Easy choice once again.
Look at Ali, still considered the greatest, with his greatest challenge in the heavyweight division looked at as Rocky Marciano, from even further back...
Don't even try and justify Schumacher as not being the best, you look stupid as f*ck just as when you try and say Jordan isn't the GOAT.
Pele, still considered as the greatest soccer player, with his biggest challenge coming from Maradona.
Rugby Union, you still have Jonah Lomu considered as the best ever.

So no, its not the most recent that are considered the best, and when they are, its for good reason because they are better.

[1987_Lakers]

Manning has 3 MVP's in the regular season, one of only two players. That's why he's considered the best QB. Not to mention his stats are as good as any great QB.
Woods has been ridiculously dominant. Almost matching the number of titles, with a whole career ahead of him.
Sure Sampras and Federer are comparable, but you look at the dominant stretch that Federer did it through, and its clear that he had the more dominant peak, and more titles. Easy choice once again.
Look at Ali, still considered the greatest, with his greatest challenge in the heavyweight division looked at as Rocky Marciano, from even further back...
Don't even try and justify Schumacher as not being the best, you look stupid as f*ck just as when you try and say Jordan isn't the GOAT.
Pele, still considered as the greatest soccer player, with his biggest challenge coming from Maradona.
Rugby Union, you still have Jonah Lomu considered as the best ever.

So no, its not the most recent that are considered the best, and when they are, its for good reason because they are better.

Ali isn't the greatest boxer ever. Every hardcore boxing fan will tell you Sugar Ray Robinson is the GOAT.

[plowking]

Ali isn't the greatest boxer ever. Every hardcore boxing fan will tell you Sugar Ray Robinson is the GOAT.

I was referring to the heavyweight division

[Cyclone112]

Manning has 3 MVP's in the regular season, one of only two players. That's why he's considered the best QB. Not to mention his stats are as good as any great QB.
Woods has been ridiculously dominant. Almost matching the number of titles, with a whole career ahead of him.
Sure Sampras and Federer are comparable, but you look at the dominant stretch that Federer did it through, and its clear that he had the more dominant peak, and more titles. Easy choice once again.
Look at Ali, still considered the greatest, with his greatest challenge in the heavyweight division looked at as Rocky Marciano, from even further back...
Don't even try and justify Schumacher as not being the best, you look stupid as f*ck just as when you try and say Jordan isn't the GOAT.
Pele, still considered as the greatest soccer player, with his biggest challenge coming from Maradona.
Rugby Union, you still have Jonah Lomu considered as the best ever.

So no, its not the most recent that are considered the best, and when they are, its for good reason because they are better.

Not to mention Gretzky who is one of the most obvious GOAT's in all of sports. Seriously wtf kind of crack is Roundball smoking.

[zabuza666]

You ask that and then call another thick? :roll:

Every one of those players/racers eclipsed the previous majority GOAT?

Nicklaus has more major wins than Tiger.
Earnhardt more championships than Johnson, Petty more wins than Earnhardt.
Federer and Sampras are comparable in terms of achievements.
Schumacher is better on paper than Senna but he won against lesser competition. Senna himself benefited from these forces. Prost=Senna but Senna was far more marketable.

Now to basketball.

Kareem has as many rings, more MVP's, better longevity, a better peak, won more in his career than Jordan. What did Jordan eclipse?

All of these guys have legit cases for GOAT but the notion that the most recent one is just better is laughable. The previous ones have similar credentials. Yet the latest one wins overwhelmingly in public opinion. The answer is obvious.

Nicklaus might have more majors, but Tiger's had far more wins overall (if you include the European tour wins that he's had. Not only that but he's got ages to go on his career, and he took golf to new heights in terms of popularity and interest.

Meanwhile Federer has managed to win every major, something Sampras never managed to do (he never won the French Open). Being able to dominate on every surface is a big deal in tennis, and the fact that Sampras could never do that is a huge blemish on the GOAT claim.

Also that's bull**** that Schumacher won against lesser competition, what do you call Mika Hakkinen and the like?

Face it dude you're full of ****.

[zabuza666]

Manning has 3 MVP's in the regular season, one of only two players. That's why he's considered the best QB. Not to mention his stats are as good as any great QB.
Woods has been ridiculously dominant. Almost matching the number of titles, with a whole career ahead of him.
Sure Sampras and Federer are comparable, but you look at the dominant stretch that Federer did it through, and its clear that he had the more dominant peak, and more titles. Easy choice once again.
Look at Ali, still considered the greatest, with his greatest challenge in the heavyweight division looked at as Rocky Marciano, from even further back...
Don't even try and justify Schumacher as not being the best, you look stupid as f*ck just as when you try and say Jordan isn't the GOAT.
Pele, still considered as the greatest soccer player, with his biggest challenge coming from Maradona.
Rugby Union, you still have Jonah Lomu considered as the best ever.

So no, its not the most recent that are considered the best, and when they are, its for good reason because they are better.

Don't forget Leigh Matthews in the AFL, who played in 70s and 80s

[Roundball_Rock]

Manning has 3 MVP's in the regular season, one of only two players. That's why he's considered the best QB.

He isn't the majority GOAT yet. Most people would still have Montana in that spot. Manning's popularity is comparable to Brady's right now. In the end Brady will wind up winning unless Manning can get another championship. It is hard to see a player with 1 championship beating a guy with 3 in public opinion, especially when they are viewed as so close.


Woods has been ridiculously dominant. Almost matching the number of titles, with a whole career ahead of him.

It doesn't matter. He has been considered the GOAT by most people for a few years now. Nicklaus still has a superior record. There are no guarantees in sports.


Sure Sampras and Federer are comparable, but you look at the dominant stretch that Federer did it through, and its clear that he had the more dominant peak, and more titles. Easy choice once again.

Weaker competition.


Don't even try and justify Schumacher as not being the best, you look stupid as f*ck just as when you try and say Jordan isn't the GOAT.

I do consider him the GOAT but others have a case. How did Senna wind up crushing Prost in public opinion? When they were in the same equipment their results were identical. You know the answer: Senna was far more marketable. Schumacher is hurt, though, by racing against lesser competition. That is the only ***** in his GOAT case. Who were his best competitors during his prime? Hakkinen, Villenueve, Hill, Montoya, and Coulthard. Only one of them was truly great (Hakkinen) but even he was not a GOAT candidate level great. Compare that to the greats who Senna and Prost faced.

I don't follow boxing, soccer, or rugby so I can't comment on them but what you say seems accurate from what I have heard about boxing and soccer.



So no, its not the most recent that are considered the best, and when they are, its for good reason because they are better.

This is the problem MJ fans have. There is no scientific way of measuring greatness. There is no conclusive way to prove MJ is the GOAT, Schumacher is the GOAT, Tiger, etc. There will always be several people with legit claims.

[ProfessorMurder]

Anyone else agree that roundball should just shut up?

[Roundball_Rock]

Nicklaus might have more majors, but Tiger's had far more wins overall (if you include the European tour wins that he's had. Not only that but he's got ages to go on his career, and he took golf to new heights in terms of popularity and interest.

Popularity is not relevant to a GOAT case.

The point is it is debatable yet the masses overwhelmingly favor Tiger over Nicklaus. They began doing this a few years ago.


Meanwhile Federer has managed to win every major, something Sampras never managed to do (he never won the French Open). Being able to dominate on every surface is a big deal in tennis, and the fact that Sampras could never do that is a huge blemish on the GOAT claim.

Again, the point is it is debatable yet the new guy won again.


Also that's bull**** that Schumacher won against lesser competition, what do you call Mika Hakkinen and the like?

Villenueve, Hill, Montoya, and Coulthard were real competition for MS???? :wtf:

Even Hakkinen was only a legit rival to MS for three years. Senna/Prost reached each other practically their entire careers and had other greats like Piquet and Mansell as well as lesser ones like Rosberg there during the same period. That>>>what MS faced.


Anyone else agree that roundball should just shut up?

It is called the ignore function. Use it. I am sure you probably can figure it out.

[plowking]

So basically, all you can claim is weak competition for the ones you are clearly wrong on... lol. You lost all your credibility with that argument right there... keep hanging on, you can still convince the obvious Kobe fanboys that Jordan isn't the best.

I'm not an MJ fan you tard. I like Kobe and Kareem better than him, even Shaq. I'd even go as far as to say I hate Jordan, due to his ego and ridiculous behaviour towards the game of basketball after he retired. He's acting as ig he's bigger than the game which has annoyed me. Though in no way, shape or form are any of them better.

[Roundball_Rock]

So basically, all you can claim is weak competition for the ones you are clearly wrong on... lol.

Again, there is never a "clear GOAT." That is a mass media myth.

Schumacher did not have weak competition? :roll:

The people saying there is a "clear GOAT" don't understand historical analysis. Context matters. You don't just, say, look at Schumacher's 7 championships. You look at who he beat to win them. You look at the other greats, their achievements and the context they did it in.

Whatever. You are one of the "MJ is the clear GOAT" zealots.

[ProfessorMurder]

It is called the ignore function. Use it. I am sure you probably can figure it out.

I had no issues with your posts(other than you mancrushing fatal) until I read this thread, just saying.

You're arguing stupid crap with everyone in here that'll never be settled.

[Cyclone112]

Anyone else agree that roundball should just shut up?

He seriously just needs to be banned already. I never would have expected to hate someone more than Fatal9 on these forums but these last two weeks of just constant delusion and hate from Roundball may have put him ahead of Fatal9 as biggest douche on these forums. That is of course if he isn't Fatal9.

[plowking]

Again, there is never a "clear GOAT." That is a mass media myth.

Schumacher did not have weak competition? :roll:

The people saying there is a "clear GOAT" don't understand historical analysis. Context matters. You don't just, say, look at Schumacher's 7 championships. You look at who he beat to win them. You look at the other greats, their achievements and the context they did it in.

Whatever. You are one of the "MJ is the clear GOAT" zealots.

That's because MJ clearly is the GOAT. No discussion needed...

Schumacher was winning titles even before Ferrari, so I won't even bother arguing with you. You seem to be a so called expert on every sport, and its clear by your scientific analysis of everything that athletes are somehow getting worse and providing weaker competition, despite better training methods and records constantly being broken...

[CB4GOATPF]

[B]Wooden also said that Walton dominated the game more than Anyone on BOTH ENDS :rolleyes:

So he telling us that Walton dominated OFFENSIVELY and DEFENSIVELY like Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem, Jabbar? :oldlol:

He also said he would only pay to watch Stockton etc

He is in love with "Players that Play Pretty" :rolleyes:

Not With IMPACT and EFFICIENCY...which is why Kobe is not even close to the Top 15-20 Greatest Players of All Time

If you talk about Fundamentals and Cute Style of Play then we can have anothe type of competition or discussion.

Kobe is still asoume but i have seen players that would dominate games more than him:

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Duncan
Malone
Garnett
James
Bird
Magic

Maybe even a Prime Grat Hill. He would live at the Line under today

[Roundball_Rock]

That's because MJ clearly is the GOAT. No discussion needed...

Schumacher was winning titles even before Ferrari, so I won't even bother arguing with you. You seem to be a so called expert on every sport, and its clear by your scientific analysis of everything that athletes are somehow getting worse and providing weaker competition, despite better training methods and records constantly being broken...

No, but I am a big NBA, NFL, F1, and NASCAR fan and familiar with their histories. I only follow tennis and golf.

Of course Schumacher was winning titles before Ferrari. Your types would look only at his championship and win totals. I would look at what MS did with Benetton, how they collapsed without him, how he revived Ferrari, how well he did when he had inferior equipment, etc. and factor these things in. This is what I mean by context. Context works very well for Schumacher. Senna always wanted to be in the best car. Schumacher nearly won titles twice with inferior cars and did excellent in junk in 96' (3rd in points, 3 wins).

I don't want to turn this into a F1 discussion so I will summarize what I am saying regarding MS in this post and leave it at that. If you want to take it to the OTC lounge I would be glad to discuss it there.

Schumacher's best competitors during his prime

Damon Hill 94-96': Are you serious? He is arguably the luckiest driver in F1 history. No one considers him a top-tier great. After 96' he never had a good car.
Jacques Villenueve 96-97': For two years he was very good competition. However, after 97' he too never had a car capable of winning--the man who won 11 times in his first two years would never even lead another lap. Still, Villeneuve was not in Schumacher's class.
Mika Hakkinen 98-00': He was legit comp, a top-tier great. The problem is Mika didn't have the car before 98' and losing his motivation, combined with Ferrari having overwhelming superiority in the early 2000's rendered him a non-factor as far as championship contention went after 2000.
David Coulthard: 98-01: Get real. DC was never a champ for a reason. He was a very good driver but not a great one.
Juan Montoya 03': Montoya only had a car capable of competing for a championship in one season. He also was not a top-tier great, at least in F1. In overall racing he likely will be a top-tier great when he retires when you look at his amazing versatility (won in IndyCars, F1, and NASCAR).
Rubens Barrichello: :roll: This guy actually finished 2nd to MS. Can you with a straight face call him legit comp?

So Hakiknen was the only top-tier great MS faced. Moreover, he lacked staying power--just like JV.
Compare that to what Senna/Prost faced! They had to beat each other--for nearly their entire primes-- Piquet (three multiple champions during that era in Senna, Prost, and Piquet), and Mansell (a top tier great who is 4th or 5th all-time I believe in race wins), and lesser greats like Rosberg (champ) as well as some other very good Coulthard types like prime Gerhard Berger. Schumacher had no competition to speak of in 2001, 2002, and 2004.

Athletes are not getting worse. They are improving. Still, just like the 80's in the NBA had more competition than the 90's and 00's the same holds true in F1. Timing matters. If Schumacher was born a decade earlier he would been in the mix in the 80's. He would have less championships, less wins but his legacy would be greater because he would have proven to be the best by beating (most of) the best. Similarly, Jordan came along five years too late to compete with the 80's dynasties. These things can't be ignored when doing historical evaluation.

A past his prime Schumacher winning in 06' against a top-tier great like Alonso would have eliminated the one ***** in his GOAT case.

Like I said, I consider Schumacher the GOAT (he is my third favorite F1 driver after Villeneuve and Montoya) but I just laid out reasons why one could argue against him. Combine this with the compelling reasons a Senna and Prost, or even a Stewart or Fangio have and it is definitely debatable.

Again, I love racing and if you want to continue this in the OTC I'll be glad to.

[andgar923]

Do we have to make this thread anytime somebody says Kobe is the greatest?

if we made a thread everytime somebody worthy mentioned MJ was the GOAT, we'll crash the server.

Exhibit 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09sCTRPLiBM

Shall I continue?

[Brandon Roy]

What has he done to be put into this discussion?

Are you being serious?

Were you asleep from 2000 to 2009?

I'll just put it this way: On offense, Kobe is and was (especially from 2003 to 2007) one of the best scorers in league history and arguably the most versatile scorer ever. On defense, he was probably the best perimeter defender in the L from 2000 to 2005. He still is an excellent defender. Combine that with his work ethic and his will to win, and you have one of the greatest to ever do it.

Oh yeah, and he has 4 rings. And he's not done yet.

I know that John Wooden is old, but you have to remember that he's forgotten more basketball than all of us know. Bill Walton was one of the greatest college players of all time. Don't hold his injury-riddled NBA career against him.

[ZOMG]

I know that John Wooden is old, but you have to remember that he's forgotten more basketball than all of us know.

The key word being "forgotten". :rolleyes:

[Manute for Ever!]

Highlight reels don't automatically equal skill. Just because it looks good, doesn't mean it is skillful

[SAKOTXA]

[QUOTE=CB4GOATPF]Wooden also said that Walton dominated the game more than Anyone on BOTH ENDS :rolleyes:

So he telling us that Walton dominated OFFENSIVELY and DEFENSIVELY like Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem, Jabbar? :oldlol:

He also said he would only pay to watch Stockton etc

He is in love with "Players that Play Pretty" :rolleyes:

Not With IMPACT and EFFICIENCY...which is why Kobe is not even close to the [B]Top 15-20 Greatest Players of All Time

If you talk about Fundamentals and Cute Style of Play then we can have anothe type of competition or discussion.

Kobe is still asoume but i have seen players that would dominate games more than him:

Jordan
Shaq
Hakeem
Barkley
Robinson
Duncan
Malone
Garnett
James
Bird
Magic

Maybe even a Prime Grat Hill. He would live at the Line under today

[stephanieg]

Kobe isn't even the best Laker of all time.

[amfirst]

Kobe is the goat. Write that down and go back to this thread in 5 years.

[justin43]

Not now. Kobe isn't the goat yet and may never be the goat. I expect Kobe to be in the top 5 through by the end of his career.

[plowking]

You're a fuc.king dumbass.....

You call him out for having an opinion about where Kobe should be ranked, yet don't call John Wooden an idiot for having his?

[guy]

I find it funny that people are saying Jordan being the consensus GOAT is a product of media hype in a thread talking about Kobe being the GOAT. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Jordan being considered the GOAT by most people does have something to do with media hype, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have arguably the best case for it even if you take away that hype. The Kobe=GOAT talks has been completely pushed by the media. I'm not talking about when someone like Jerry West says he's top 5-6 all-time, cause thats not GOAT. Its been total hype by media like ESPN pushing questions like "Will Kobe become the GOAT?", "Will he be better then Jordan?", when the guy hasn't really done close to enough (especially at this point of his career) to be put in that class. In the past few years, the Kobe=GOAT talks have taken a step down since more people have begun to realize that this isn't the GOAT player ever seen and Lebron has emerged more and has been getting more hype.

[Simple Jack]

Yeah--Federer has ONE more major win than Sampras. Of course he beat Sampras. He was young, Sampras past his prime. That is like saying Kobe>Jordan because he "beat" him when Jordan was old.

Tiger is still behind him and there is no guarantee he will overtake him (0 majors last year...). Yet most people already consider him the GOAT.

I put Brady and Manning with question marks for that reason. Wait a few years as they approach retirement and the hype will begin. They are definitely in the conversation already. What made Montana "clearly better" than every QB in the decades before him?

I am unfamiliar with boxing so I can't comment.

In racing the same dynamic occurs.

You also start from the premise that being the GOAT is a numbers game. There are various other factors that should be looked at. However, the mass media often will cherry pick a number or two to make their point. In Kobe's case the number would be rings (since they deleted Russell's 11 from the popular record for the convenience of MJ).

Do you watch or know anything about Tennis? Sampras never even made a French Open Final. Federer has Sampras beat in nearly every aspect of tennis. Federer against weak competition? Do you know who he beat earlier in his career? Wikipedia it since you evidently don't watch Tennis. Not to mention he's constantly going up against the GOAT clay court player.

Did the media also make people forget Russell's rings when KAJ was in the league?

[Simple Jack]

Are you being serious?

Were you asleep from 2000 to 2009?

I'll just put it this way: On offense, Kobe is and was (especially from 2003 to 2007) one of the best scorers in league history and arguably the most versatile scorer ever. On defense, he was probably the best perimeter defender in the L from 2000 to 2005. He still is an excellent defender. Combine that with his work ethic and his will to win, and you have one of the greatest to ever do it.

Oh yeah, and he has 4 rings. And he's not done yet.

I know that John Wooden is old, but you have to remember that he's forgotten more basketball than all of us know. Bill Walton was one of the greatest college players of all time. Don't hold his injury-riddled NBA career against him.


So Kobe just became the GOAT candidate after this win this year? Prior to that, why would he be ranked higher than Pippen? 6 rings vs 3 right?

Either way, Kobe is a prolific scorer, but hardly one of the most efficient. You can even argue he wasn't the best player in the league in nearly all of the years mentioned (for sure when Shaq was on the team).

He has done NOTHING at all to be considered the GOAT. He is one of the all-time greats, but by no means a candidate for the greatest player to ever play the game. Look at Jordan's individual achievements/statistics/achievements and tell me honestly that Kobe CAN in some sense, be considered better than him.

[catch24]

High praise coming from the Greatest collegiate-coach (possibly all time in the sport itself). I disagree with his opinion, but I definitely see Kobe making a case for top 5 when his career is over, given he wins a few MORE rings, MVPs, etc.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe is the goat. Write that down and go back to this thread in 5 years.

In 5 years bandwagon hoppers will be proclaiming this guy as GOAT

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/media/images/articles/LeBron_James.jpg

And I really need someone to explain to me how Kobe can even be considered the GOAT at this point. Can someone objectively break this down for me with coherent points and factual evidence and not just thinly-veiled homoerotic slobbering? Much Appreciated.

[triangleoffense]

There will never be a singular GOAT, there's just a list of GOAT players. Kobe, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Bird, etc, all in the discussion.

Kobe = 4 Lebron = 0.

Before lebron gets considered to be in the mix he's gotta win 3 or more, with help or otherwise. Otherwise he'll go down as a Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Reggie, type player.

[Roundball_Rock]

I find it funny that people are saying Jordan being the consensus GOAT is a product of media hype in a thread talking about Kobe being the GOAT.

Why? I don't know about others but I have said the "Kobe for GOAT" talk will be a complete media production. What is the contradiction? We are talking about the media--not historians. It seems what they do is hype anyone who reaches top 5 status and hyping someone as the GOAT sells newspapers, brings television and radio ratings. It isn't about substance. Look at the "Ronald Reagan for GOAT" talk. No serious historian takes that seriously but Reagan is very popular and that hype sells in some quarters.


Do you watch or know anything about Tennis? Sampras never even made a French Open Final. Federer has Sampras beat in nearly every aspect of tennis. Federer against weak competition?

My point was it is debatable. No, I follow it a bit but I am not a fan. I am a racing fan, though. See the Schumacher discussion for an example of a guy being deemed the GOAT (most recent great...) even though there is a big ***** in his GOAT case that the popular media overlooks.


Did the media also make people forget Russell's rings when KAJ was in the league?

As the song said, why don't you find out for yourself? Ask some people you know what they know about Russell, Kareem, et al. Then ask them who they consider the GOAT. The responses often will be "Jordan is the GOAT--even though I don't know what case the other candidates have."


In 5 years bandwagon hoppers will be proclaiming this guy as GOAT

I agree. Lebron has had a massive marketing campaign behind him from day 1 along with immense media hype. If he can win a few rings the "Lebron for GOAT" machine will start--and probably succeed. Jordan was last a factor in the NBA over a decade ago now so to many people he is a historical figure, or a fuzzy memory from when they were 5 years old, just like every other GOAT candidate is for most NBA fans.

[triangleoffense]

I agree. Lebron has had a massive marketing campaign behind him from day 1 along with immense media hype. If he can win a few rings the "Lebron for GOAT" machine will start--and probably succeed. Jordan was last a factor in the NBA over a decade ago now so to many people he is a historical figure, or a fuzzy memory from when they were 5 years old, just like every other GOAT candidate is for most NBA fans.
i was 13 when Jordan retired(in 98). I guess that's what the teeny boppers on this forum say, which is why I dont listen to what they say or take them seriously. People who remember Jordan when they were 5 probably has little perspective or plain knowledge of the game.

[Kombo]

When asked about his "ideal" player, Wooden usually says Jamaal "Keith" Wilkes. Wilkes was an excellent player, but we all know he is no Kareem or Walton.

Edit: word choice

[LAClipsFan33]

I will be able to comment on this when I hear an explanation or read an explanation straight from John Wooden. Second hand stories from some comedian don't cut it for me...

[LAClipsFan33]

When asked about his "best" player he ever had play for him, Wooden usually says Jamaal "Keith" Wilkes. Wilkes was an excellent player, but we all know he is no Kareem or Walton.

Actually he say Walton pre-injury was the best and most complete player he has ever seen. No weakness in his game...the perfect basketball player

All the idiots on here who diss Walton and post his stats and laugh at him never saw him play

[guy]

Why? I don't know about others but I have said the "Kobe for GOAT" talk will be a complete media production. What is the contradiction? We are talking about the media--not historians. It seems what they do is hype anyone who reaches top 5 status and hyping someone as the GOAT sells newspapers, brings television and radio ratings. It isn't about substance. Look at the "Ronald Reagan for GOAT" talk. No serious historian takes that seriously but Reagan is very popular and that hype sells in some quarters.


The point is right now and during Jordan's career, the Jordan=GOAT discussions were actually legit, not solely a product of media hype. The Kobe=GOAT discussions that have gone even as early as the early 00s, were not really legit, and were almost completely a product of media hype.

[Story Up]

Barkley, Malone, Stockton none of whom achieved as many accolodes or won as much as a 31 year old Kobe Bryant; yet they get praised while not winning a single championship. Kobe has won 4 titles and has an MVP/Finals MVP under his belt and should be considered arguably the most talented player to ever play. He is currently in a situation that Jordan has been in for the second part of his career (on a great team); and has an opportunity to win many more titles and accolades. Who is to say that if Kobe wins say 3 more titles, possible MVP and a couple more finals MVP; while continuing to wrack up All-NBA 1st Team honors and All-Defensive team honors; that he can't be in the discussion for the greatest NBA player to ever play in the NBA? His resume will certainly be comparable to any basketball player that has played in this league.

The only problem I have is people claiming that Kobe has not even remotely achieved as much as guys like Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic or Kareem; that is an absolute lie and anyone with a remote sense of neutrality should understand that. Kobe currently is a borderline top ten player of all-time; but he still has miles left in this league and could potentially do things that would put him on a similar pedestal as those other greats. If you actually compare what Kobe has achieved thus far in his career at a similar age to all of those legends; his resume is very much comparable to any of those legends.

Why compare other legends accolades and team success who have retired long ago to a guy who is only 31 years of age and hasn't shown much sign of slowing down. Must be insecure, if just a little.

However I am pessimistic that Kobe could surpass Jordan, even after his retirement. He might win more titles and possibly have similar amount of accolades, but Jordan's production will always surpass Kobes's.

[Roundball_Rock]

The point is right now and during Jordan's career, the Jordan=GOAT discussions were actually legit, not solely a product of media hype. The Kobe=GOAT discussions that have gone even as early as the early 00s, were not really legit, and were almost completely a product of media hype.

The Jordan=GOAT discussion was/is legit; the Jordan=clear GOAT or Jordan=GOAT=fact is not legit. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact all the time in the media. No wonder that whenever someone challenges it people get pissed off (not just NBA fans, look at the vehement reaction to me saying a F1 driver--who I also consider the GOAT--won against weak competition). They view it as factual as the sky being blue. That is media hype. Ads saying "he changed sports"--running over a decade after Jordan was last relevant in the NBA--are hype.

[mikeiniowa]

So Kobe just became the GOAT candidate after this win this year? Prior to that, why would he be ranked higher than Pippen? 6 rings vs 3 right?

Either way, Kobe is a prolific scorer, but hardly one of the most efficient. You can even argue he wasn't the best player in the league in nearly all of the years mentioned (for sure when Shaq was on the team).

He has done NOTHING at all to be considered the GOAT. He is one of the all-time greats, but by no means a candidate for the greatest player to ever play the game. Look at Jordan's individual achievements/statistics/achievements and tell me honestly that Kobe CAN in some sense, be considered better than him.


this is only my 2nd post, and I want to say I have been a laker fan since 1979 and now my kids are too. MJ, then Wilt. After that 3-4 guys and then Kobe. Now if Kobe was a +50% FG for his career you could have a case to consider him higher.

I think LBJ will be considered greater than Kobe when both are done and if he develops his outside shot has a chance to surpass Jordan.

[guy]

The Jordan=GOAT discussion was/is legit; the Jordan=clear GOAT or Jordan=GOAT=fact is not legit. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as fact all the time in the media. No wonder that whenever someone challenges it people get pissed off (not just NBA fans, look at the vehement reaction to me saying a F1 driver--who I also consider the GOAT--won against weak competition). They view it as factual as the sky being blue. That is media hype. Ads saying "he changed sports"--running over a decade after Jordan was last relevant in the NBA--are hype.

Whatever the case, I'm talking about the discussion in general. The discussion for Kobe=GOAT is a joke at this point and probably will always be for people that know what they're talking about. As far as the media goes, Jordan was around just 11 years ago (Bulls Jordan, not old Jordan), and there's players in their prime that Kobe has actually played with that were better then he's ever been and more then likely ever will be. Kobe has never approached what either Jordan and Shaq were in their primes. At least for Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, the media can always use the excuse that they were significantly different eras but not against players that played around the same time as him.

[Bigsmoke]

Who the sh!t is John Wooden?

It sounds like he's an attention whore.

John Wooden deserves more respect than that. the was uncalled for.

[Roundball_Rock]

The discussion for Kobe=GOAT is a joke at this point and probably will always be for people that know what they're talking about.

I agree.


As far as the media goes, Jordan was around just 11 years ago (Bulls Jordan, not old Jordan), and there's players in their prime that Kobe has actually played with that were better then he's ever been and more then likely ever will be. Kobe has never approached what either Jordan and Shaq were in their primes.

I agree but we are talking about the media, not historians. A historian has to at least be somewhat objective and a historian's goal is to reconstruct what he or she best believes resembles reality as it was. The media just want ratings, web hits, and newspaper sales.

How can they do it? Look at how Jordan partisans today dismiss Kareem by citing FMVP's, as if that is the be all and end all of determining who the GOAT is (the FMVP thing is a result of luck so should hold little water. How many do you think Kareem would have won if he got his perfect team at the same age as Jordan, not when he was 32?). The media likely will cling to rings. If Kobe has 6 they can say 6=6 and maybe throw in "tougher era" or something else. If he has more than they can simply say 7>6, 8>6 (or 4 in Shaq's case). That has about as much validity as saying Jordan>Kareem because of FMVP's. I understand MJ has a legit case over Kareem for a variety of reasons. My point is that people can cling to a flimsy fact as the basis of determining something like this.

[Batchoy]

My point is that people can cling to a flimsy fact as the basis of determining something like this.I wouldn't call Finals MVP's flimsy, but you're right that people are using a specific achievement to boost their favorite player. It's more of a combination of many things (including Finals MVP), invididual and team accomplishments.

Back to the topic. I respect and admire John Wooden greatly, but I have to disagree with his opinion on this subject. When Kobe retires he is going to be considered one of the greatest to ever play, and he still has a few great years left in him, but I don't see him reaching the #1 spot.

[Brandon Roy]

So Kobe just became the GOAT candidate after this win this year? Prior to that, why would he be ranked higher than Pippen? 6 rings vs 3 right?

Either way, Kobe is a prolific scorer, but hardly one of the most efficient. You can even argue he wasn't the best player in the league in nearly all of the years mentioned (for sure when Shaq was on the team).

He has done NOTHING at all to be considered the GOAT. He is one of the all-time greats, but by no means a candidate for the greatest player to ever play the game. Look at Jordan's individual achievements/statistics/achievements and tell me honestly that Kobe CAN in some sense, be considered better than him.

Let's be sensible here. I grew up as the biggest Jordan fan, and I still consider him to be the GOAT and my favorite player. All I'm saying is that it's not ridiculous to say that Kobe can be considered the GOAT.

Yes, MJ (along with the other potential GOATs) have more accomplishments than Kobe, but can you honestly argue that prime Kobe couldn't compete with the other players in the top 10 GOATs? You really don't believe that prime Kobe wouldn't give prime MJ a run for his money if they played against each other?

All I'm saying is, let's just try to be objective about all this. I'm as big of a Jordan fan as anyone (I started playing basketball because of him) but give the other GOATs their respect.

On a related note, this whole idea that MJ is the automatic GOAT is getting tiring. Jordan was not as perfect as people think he was. People act like he never had a bad game or he never had any worthy competition. Get real, people.

There were other greats before him. What about Magic and Bird? Has anyone done more for the game than they have? Did MJ ever play the game in a selfless way like Magic did? What about Russell's 11 rings? Was MJ ever as dominant as Wilt was? What about Kareem? There has got to be better discussion about this.

[Jinxed]

is that MARTY FUNKHAUSER!!!

[SAKOTXA]

You call him out for having an opinion about where Kobe should be ranked, yet don't call John Wooden an idiot for having his?

He said Kobe isn't even close to being Top 15-20 player of all time, which is even more absurd then what Wooden said.

[zabuza666]

My point was it is debatable. No, I follow it a bit but I am not a fan. I am a racing fan, though. See the Schumacher discussion for an example of a guy being deemed the GOAT (most recent great...) even though there is a big ***** in his GOAT case that the popular media overlooks.


No it isn't debatable though, Federer is the GOAT tennis player (until someone overtakes him). What claims can you make to go against his GOAT case? He's got it locked.

[dyna]

Things to consider:

- He has watched every great player in history.
- He is aware about the strengths and weaknesses of every era.
- He watches a TON of Laker games (so it's not like he is being hyped into believing it) and has seen more games than anyone else on this board.
- As far as I know, he has no agenda. Completely unbiased opinion here.
- Whether it's true or not, 10 years down the road, Kobe will be remembered as the GOAT amongst the general public (and looks like a significant portion of the basketball community too). This barring LBJ doing some other worldly sh*t in that time span.
- This is John freaking Wooden. He knows more about basketball than you could ever hope. He would laugh at your face if you ever presented him with a bunch of trash stats to make your case, he understands that there is more to the game.
- Jerry "the GOAT talent evaluator" West named Kobe as the top 5-6 players ever right? If you are going to agree with him on everything, then why ignore this?

He is a Laker for life.

[Shih508]

Fatal, go back to your original acct... lol

[AirJordan&Magic]

I could see Lebron ending up being considered the best player to play the game if he wins a few championships, particularly in New York, but I don't see it happening with Kobe.

And personally I see almost no chance of Kobe being a top 5 player when it's all said and done. I don't see what he could do that would rank him above Jordan, Kareem, Shaq, Bird or Wilt. Honestly, I don't see myself ranking him over Olajuwon.
I agree with not being able to see Kobe surpassing Mj, Kareem, Russell, or Wilt.
Maybe Magic as well. I myself can't see Kobe surpassing those 4 players I named in the first sentence, but what in your mind actually makes you think Kobe does not have a good chance finishing his career top 5 of all time?????

Especially surpassing Bird and Hakeem??? Kobe has already won more championships than both of them and if you compare the accomplishments, it is much closer than you think.

Kobe can easily surpass Bird this season, it's not even funny how close it is. There is a very very good chance that Kobe may very well win mvp this season and win his 5th ring.

Say he wins his 5th ring (2 more than Bird and 3 more than Hakeem), 2nd league Mvp ( 1 less than Bird and 1 more than Hakeem), and 2nd finals mvp (tie with Bird and hakeem) this season, you honestly wouldn't think Kobe has surpassed these two??

I personally have Kobe ranked from 9-11 all time.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Wow. I never thought I'd be saying these 2 sentences:

Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play basketball.

It is not absurd anymore to argue that Kobe might be the GOAT.

I know that one of the purposes of this board is so that people can argue (passionately) about stuff like this, but I think we've come to a point where arguing passionately against the notion that Kobe might be the GOAT is absurd and homer-like. I feel like there are maybe 6 or 7 players that someone can argue to be the GOAT, and Kobe is one of them.

I don't know what surprises me more: John Wooden calling Kobe the GOAT or Bill Simmons actually respecting and liking Kobe. This is monumental in the basketball world. I cannot emphasize enough how crazy this is.
LOL. I though to myself the same thing.

I didn't know what shocked me more. John Wooden, arguably the greatest college coach calling Kobe the greatest player he ever saw, or Bill Simmons actually giving Kobe respect.

[Shih508]

I agree with not being able to see Kobe surpassing Mj, Kareem, Russell, or Wilt.
Maybe Magic as well. I myself can't see Kobe surpassing those 4 players I named in the first sentence, but what in your mind actually makes you think Kobe does not have a good chance finishing his career top 5 of all time?????

Especially surpassing Bird and Hakeem??? Kobe has already won more championships than both of them and if you compare the accomplishments, it is much closer than you think.



Robber Horry and Scottie Pippen have won more rings than kobe, then they must be rank ahead of Kobe in all time list by your standard!

[raptorfan_dr07]

So Kobe just became the GOAT candidate after this win this year? Prior to that, why would he be ranked higher than Pippen? 6 rings vs 3 right?


Thank You!!! Last year, he BARELY accomplished ONCE, what other legends have done multiple times. Yet somehow that's enough in these morons eyes to leapfrog him over those more decorated. Before last year he was Scottie Pippen and James Worthy. All of a sudden, he's MJ or Magic or Kareem. :rolleyes:



And I really need someone to explain to me how Kobe can even be considered the GOAT at this point. Can someone objectively break this down for me with coherent points and factual evidence and not just thinly-veiled homoerotic slobbering? Much Appreciated.

Please, come back to the main forum and post more like before lol. I know it gets frustrating and old having to correct these retards with the basketball knowledge of my five month old cousin(on second thought, she probably knows more about basketball than all these Kobe fans) over and over again, but sometimes they need to be put in their proper place.



The only problem I have is people claiming that Kobe has not even remotely achieved as much as guys like Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic or Kareem; that is an absolute lie and anyone with a remote sense of neutrality should understand that. If you actually compare what Kobe has achieved thus far in his career at a similar age to all of those legends; his resume is very much comparable to any of those legends.

He hasn't. He's led ONE team to a championship. Those other guys did it over and over and over again. If you want to go with meaningless BS like 81 points and 62 in 3 quarters crap, Scottie Pippen said it best in that ESPN interview, "81 points and he'll be done, what, the first week of May?" :roll: Also, if you want to use all those scoring numbers as "evidence", then you all should keep your damn mouths shut when you all try to criticize Abe for proclaming Wilt Chamberlain the GOAT when he uses Wilt's 100 point game and numerous scoring records/outbursts as part of his evidence. He also provides numerous quotes of players/coaches/media talking about Wilt Chamberlain that you all shoot down, yet turn right around and hop on the bandwagon when someone has something good to say about Kobe. Damn hypocrites. :rolleyes:


Why compare other legends accolades and team success who have retired long ago to a guy who is only 31 years of age and hasn't shown much sign of slowing down.

Then don't do it. Tell your fellow Kobe fans to keep Kobe's name out the same sentences as MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc. Compare Kobe to his competition of today. He's definitely a top 3 player of this decade. Shaq and Duncan being the only clear cut players ahead of him. You can make an argument for KG.

[AirJordan&Magic]

:roll: What the hell is the matter with you idiots?????

John Wooden did not call Kobe the GOAT. He said Kobe is the greatest player HE ever saw play.

:wtf: It's his damn opinion, especially coming from a legend as himself, he obviously is seeing something that you haters are to blind to see.

I personally think Magic and Michael Jordan were the best players I ever witnessed play. Kobe not too far behind. But we are all entitled to our opinion.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree with not being able to see Kobe surpassing Mj, Kareem, Russell, or Wilt.
Maybe Magic as well. I myself can't see Kobe surpassing those 4 players I named in the first sentence, but what in your mind actually makes you think Kobe does not have a good chance finishing his career top 5 of all time?????

Especially surpassing Bird and Hakeem??? Kobe has already won more championships than both of them and if you compare the accomplishments, it is much closer than you think.

Kobe can easily surpass Bird this season, it's not even funny how close it is. There is a very very good chance that Kobe may very well win mvp this season and win his 5th ring.

Say he wins his 5th ring (2 more than Bird and 3 more than Hakeem), 2nd league Mvp ( 1 less than Bird and 1 more than Hakeem), and 2nd finals mvp (tie with Bird and hakeem) this season, you honestly wouldn't think Kobe has surpassed these two??

I personally have Kobe ranked from 9-11 all time.

He can win all of the rings he wants, but it doesn't change the fact that I've never seen Kobe dominate the way mid 90's Hakeem did on either end and Hakeem was at a dominant level on both ends from his rookie seaosn until 1997 and he was still a great player in 1999.

Bird was even better than Hakeem, and definitely better than Magic as well IMO.

If Kobe won a ring this year he'd still be behind Bird by 1 MVP, he'd still be behind Bird as far as titles as the number 1 guy and he'd still have an inferior peak IMO.

His accomplishments would look good next to Hakeem's except for Olajuwon's 2 DPOY awards and superior peak.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Robber Horry and Scottie Pippen have won more rings than kobe, then they must be rank ahead of Kobe in all time list by your standard!
Whatever clown.

Maybe by your own twisted logic they are better than Kobe, but anyone that can have a serious b-ball conversation would understand my point.

Anyway, if you want to look up their accomplishments yourself and compare, feel free and get back at me.
Tell me what you think after you do.

[AirJordan&Magic]

He can win all of the rings he wants, but it doesn't change the fact that I've never seen Kobe dominate the way mid 90's Hakeem did on either end and Hakeem was at a dominant level on both ends from his rookie seaosn until 1997 and he was still a great player in 1999.

Bird was even better than Hakeem, and definitely better than Magic as well IMO.

If Kobe won a ring this year he'd still be behind Bird by 1 MVP, he'd still be behind Bird as far as titles as the number 1 guy and he'd still have an inferior peak IMO.

His accomplishments would look good next to Hakeem's except for Olajuwon's 2 DPOY awards and superior peak.
If that doesn't change it, then you have no choice but to admit you don't like Kobe, plain and simple.

Hakeem is one of my favorite players ever, so I'm not going to say anything about him, but if you think Kobe has not been dominant these past years, especially in 2000-01, 2002-03, 2005-06, and 2006-07, then you didn't want to watch him.

And what the hell is this "number 1 guy" crap???? It is a team sport! Are you going to say Kobe was not a key component to the Lakers title run?? Are you going to say that Jerry West, Dr.J, Oscar, clyde, etc. doesn't deserve their credit?

[AirJordan&Magic]

Thank You!!! Last year, he BARELY accomplished ONCE, what other legends have done multiple times. Yet somehow that's enough in these morons eyes to leapfrog him over those more decorated. Before last year he was Scottie Pippen and James Worthy. All of a sudden, he's MJ or Magic or Kareem. :rolleyes:



Please, come back to the main forum and post more like before lol. I know it gets frustrating and old having to correct these retards with the basketball knowledge of my five month old cousin(on second thought, she probably knows more about basketball than all these Kobe fans) over and over again, but sometimes they need to be put in their proper place.



He hasn't. He's led ONE team to a championship. Those other guys did it over and over and over again. If you want to go with meaningless BS like 81 points and 62 in 3 quarters crap, Scottie Pippen said it best in that ESPN interview, "81 points and he'll be done, what, the first week of May?" :roll: Also, if you want to use all those scoring numbers as "evidence", then you all should keep your damn mouths shut when you all try to criticize Abe for proclaming Wilt Chamberlain the GOAT when he uses Wilt's 100 point game and numerous scoring records/outbursts as part of his evidence. He also provides numerous quotes of players/coaches/media talking about Wilt Chamberlain that you all shoot down, yet turn right around and hop on the bandwagon when someone has something good to say about Kobe. Damn hypocrites. :rolleyes:



Then don't do it. Tell your fellow Kobe fans to keep Kobe's name out the same sentences as MJ, Magic, Bird, Kareem, etc. Compare Kobe to his competition of today. He's definitely a top 3 player of this decade. Shaq and Duncan being the only clear cut players ahead of him. You can make an argument for KG.
Lmao. A raptor fan.

[ShaqAttack3234]

If that doesn't change it, then you have no choice but to admit you don't like Kobe, plain and simple.

Hakeem is one of my favorite players ever, so I'm not going to say anything about him, but if you think Kobe has not been dominant these past years, especially in 2000-01, 2002-03, 2005-06, and 2006-07, then you didn't want to watch him.

And what the hell is this "number 1 guy" crap???? It is a team sport! Are you going to say Kobe was not a key component to the Lakers title run?? Are you going to say that Jerry West, Dr.J, Oscar, clyde, etc. doesn't deserve their credit?

Actually I do like Kobe. I stated he was my pick for MVP so far this season in 2 threads.

And when did I say Kobe hasn't been dominant? I said he's never been AS dominant AS Hakeem was in his prime.

And number 2 guys deserve credit, but not as much as the number 1 guy. Dr. J deserves credit, but not as much as Moses Malone, Oscar deserves credit, but not as much as Kareem, Clyde deserves credit, but not as much as Hakeem and Kobe deserves credit, but not as much as Shaq.

[G-train]

John Wooden should stick to evaluating school boys and stay out of mens business.

Dude is 99 years old too - he probably has Kobe mixed up with Elgin Baylor.

[97 bulls]

i really dont how anyone can use kobes championships as a testament to his greatness. considering the fact that hes never played at a high level in the finals.

and for those that dont think that jordan is the greatest all time what could he have possibly done to gain GOAT recognition in your eyes? considering that kobe has done not even half of the stuff jordan had accomplished and yet your willing to put him in the top 5.

honestly, the only 2 that have a case for GOAT are jordan and jabbar.

[pierce2008mvp]

Kobe isn't even as good as Pierce. Pierce outplayed him with an inferior supporting cast as the Lakers were favorites and he did this while playing on a busted knee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/series?series=lalbos

[Inspector Rick]

You can't take this guys opinion seriously. He's old..... he's just... too old!

He's probably been watching his grandkids play NBA Live for the past five years. Of course he's gunna say Kobe's GOAT when he sees a stat line of 147 PPG 89 RPG 56 APG and 38 SPG. Gawd!

When it comes to sports games, old people cant tell the difference between good graphics and real life. I love'em but old people just turn crazy after certain amount of time.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Actually I do like Kobe. I stated he was my pick for MVP so far this season in 2 threads.

And when did I say Kobe hasn't been dominant? I said he's never been AS dominant AS Hakeem was in his prime.

And number 2 guys deserve credit, but not as much as the number 1 guy. Dr. J deserves credit, but not as much as Moses Malone, Oscar deserves credit, but not as much as Kareem, Clyde deserves credit, but not as much as Hakeem and Kobe deserves credit, but not as much as Shaq.
I like your reply. I can respect that. I may not agree, you may not agree, but you definitely earned respect and you seem like a logical fan.

[AirJordan&Magic]

You can't take this guys opinion seriously. He's old..... he's just... too old!

He's probably been watching his grandkids play NBA Live for the past five years. Of course he's gunna say Kobe's GOAT when he sees a stat line of 147 PPG 89 RPG 56 APG and 38 SPG. Gawd!

When it comes to sports games, old people cant tell the difference between good graphics and real life. I love'em but old people just turn crazy after certain amount of time.

:wtf: :roll: :roll: :roll: You have got to be kidding me!!!???? Did you just say we can't take "this guy's" opinion serious, and target it towards the great John Wooden??

You my friend are a moron and your disrespect towards a man of his stature is pathetic.

[Inspector Rick]

Take a breather, sit back and realize IT WAS A SARCASTIC POST!!!!!

I was just pointing out that old people are crazy. Unless your one of them.... if thats the case, then I'm sorry.

I can see my old man getting there. Its kinda funny. "Ohhh you got the Bulls game on eh". "Yes dad, I always watch basketball games with an XBOX controller in hand" haha.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Take a breather, sit back and realize IT WAS A SARCASTIC POST!!!!!

I was just pointing out that old people are crazy. Unless your one of them.... if thats the case, then I'm sorry.

I can see my old man getting there. Its kinda funny. "Ohhh you got the Bulls game on eh". "Yes dad, I always watch basketball games with an XBOX controller in hand" haha.

:oldlol: Lol, now that you put it that way, it is kinda funny when you think about it. I apologize for being a bit harsh, just the comment pertaining to John Wooden rubbed me the wrong way.

[305Baller]

He aint that legendary.

[juju151111]

In 5 years bandwagon hoppers will be proclaiming this guy as GOAT

http://www.mouthpiecesports.com/media/images/articles/LeBron_James.jpg

And I really need someone to explain to me how Kobe can even be considered the GOAT at this point. Can someone objectively break this down for me with coherent points and factual evidence and not just thinly-veiled homoerotic slobbering? Much Appreciated.
Don comes back to this forum because he couldn't believe his eyes lol.

[Hotlantadude81]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ElUmrpZEU

Let the riot begin.:oldlol:

I'm not one to bash Kobe... The only time I do it is when I argue with a Lakers fan. But I nothing against the guy.... But I don't believe anyone with any real judgment could watch MJ and Kobe and think Kobe is better. He is not as athletic, he is not as good on the defensive end, and his jumper is fairly inconsistent. He doesn't have as much appeal with the fans either.

[Hotlantadude81]

The same thing is happening right now in NASCAR. Jimmie Johnson is now being called the GOAT by some. Two years ago, even a year ago, that would be laughable.

Who gives a crap about Jimmy Johnson?

[Hotlantadude81]

Wooden deserves better respect than to be treated as old man who has 'lost it'.



Old people.... They just say things. They don't remember what they saw.

[KevinNYC]

']That's like, his opinion, man.
Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only who cares about the rules.



I don't roll on Shabbos.

[Disaprine]

woah :roll:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/HumanTorch.gif

FLAME ON
:roll: