Who is/was the better player: Scottie Pippen or Pau Gasol?

[elementally morale]

Serious question.

I know the positions and playing styles don't match. However, there was a dynasty that had Pippen as 2nd fiddle and we have a team with potential of winning a few more titles in the next 4-5 years. On that team, Pau Gasol is 2nd fiddle.

So who is the better player of the two? Which would you rather have? Who would you choose to build around? Which one of them is the better complimentary player?

Tell me what you think.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

its just funny how somebody starts a reasonable post and all the trolls start coming out like snails after the rain. 2 replies and still no reasoning on why Pippen is that incredibly much better than Gasol. Anyways its still very soon to make a judgement on this as the Kobe-Gasol Lakers have a few years ahead and only by the time they are done we will all know the outcome of this.

Again, this has a lot to do with popularity. Pippen was popular besides being a great player so nobody questions him. On the other hand, Gasol is just a skinny white euro ,uncool, and no matter how great performances he has and how many rings he manages to win, people will not even admit a comparison to Kevin Garnett, either. well, when i said people i meant haters and trolls, obviously.

As for my opinion, they are both great players and its extremely hard to make a choice. Only because of career success logic clearly says Pippen. However, time will tell, in the end.

[Roundball_Rock]

Troll, it is a laughable question. Comparing them is like comparing Derek Fisher to Dennis Rodman. :oldlol: @ "Troll Hunter" vouching for this thread.

Gasol has made one all-NBA team (barely--the third team and he never made it before wearing the *purple and gold*), 0 all-Defensive teams, has never received a MVP vote, and made two all-star teams in his entire career. He is closer to Horace Grant than Scottie Pippen.

[Cyclone112]

Troll, it is a laughable question. Comparing them is like comparing Derek Fisher to Dennis Rodman. :oldlol: @ "Troll Hunter" vouching for this thread.

Gasol has made one all-NBA team (barely--the third team and he never made it before wearing the *purple and gold*), 0 all-Defensive teams, has never received a MVP vote, and made two all-star teams in his entire career. He is closer to Horace Grant than Scottie Pippen.

Gasol >>> Pippen... jk. At least it isn't a Bulls/Jordan fan making this thread or else this would be a disaster.

[elementally morale]

Comparing them is like comparing Derek Fisher to Dennis Rodman.


Not really. Gason lead a Spanish team to great international success. He took a team to the playoffs with no marquee 2nd option. He is an integral part of a campionship team and he is the 2nd most efficient player in the league this year after LeBron, based on efficiency numbers at nba.com

Gasol had more than decent success and he is a very good player. Pretending like it's out of the question comparing him to Pippen tells me you have not seen that much of Pippen live and you let thos rings blur your vision.

Pippen vs. Gasol is a legitimate question, even if Pippen turns out to have been better. (I think I'd vote Pippen myself, but I really want to know what you guys think. And why.)

[elementally morale]

At least it isn't a Bulls/Jordan fan making this thread or else this would be a disaster.

It could turn out to be a disaster this way, too.

Gasol is the 2nd best player on the Lakers. Some people say he is the MVP of the Lakers. (I disagree but you hear the voices.) But let's just agree he is the 2nd best player on that team. Pippen was the 2nd best player on Jordan's Bulls.

So you are basically saying that Jordan had a MUCH MUCH MUCH better 2nd option thatn Kobe had last year and has this year.

Are you sure?

[Roundball_Rock]

Not really. Gason lead a Spanish team to great international success.

Yeah, and Pippen was--according to Chuck Daly--the second best player on the Dream Team, the GOAT team international competition.


He took a team to the playoffs with no marquee 2nd option.

And did nothing when he got there. Pippen took a team to within one horrendous foul call from the ECF and likely was on his way to the finals wihtout a marquee 2nd option.


Gasol had more than decent success and he is a very good player.

Yeah, so is Boozer. The funny thing is Boozer was considered better than Gasol (as was Bosh, Stoudemire, Duncan, KG, and Dirk) as recently as the end of the 2008 season. Gee, what changed? :rolleyes:


Pippen vs. Gasol is a legitimate question

It is a laughable question. If you are as intelligent as you think you are you are simply engaged in trolling. Pippen is top 20-25 all-time according to most people. Gasol is barely top 15 today. How are they comparable?


So you are basically saying that Jordan had a MUCH MUCH MUCH better 2nd option thatn Kobe had last year and has this year.

Are you sure?

Ah, I see your point now. Yes, Jordan had a far better second option than Kobe has. Let's compare #3, #4, and #5 options, though...I can't do this until purple and gold fans clarify their hierarchy. Who is your #3 option anyway? The great Bynum who is benched in crunch time? Is it Odom? Artest?

[Carbine]

If Pippen was a basketball team and Gasol was a basketball team, Pippen would be about 10 points better than Gasol.

Make sense?

[elementally morale]

Oh snap, you just unleashed the Roundball_Rock fury! ISH is done any minute now.


How old is this Roundball Rock guy? In his mid twenties, I guess. When did Pippen sart playing? 1987? How old was RR back then? 2 years old? 5 years old?

[TROLL_HUNTER]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Troll, it is a laughable question. Comparing them is like comparing Derek Fisher to Dennis Rodman. :oldlol: @ "Troll Hunter" vouching for this thread.


please, come back with a more elaborated reasoning. Playing alongside somebody who is considered God by most people plus being white and foreigner and coming from a crap team like Memphis is not the best path to ever getting a MVP vote, regardless your performances on the court. And please...all Lakers fan will always vote Kobe cos they know that hes the only one who can win the MVP. No matter how good Gasol is they will never split the votes so none of them is a serious candidate for the MVP. Even a blind man can see that. and it was impossible he would ever get a vote playing for Memphis, unless some people start saying you look like Kobe Bryant. I will give you just 1 example: OJ Mayo. I see lots of posts about this guy, only cos many people see some future KB on him. If you compare his performance last year and this year to Gasol's game back in Memphis, Gasol did much better than him but Today people appreciate OJ Mayo much more than they did with Gasol back then. Why? Again, its just a question of popularity and what you look like, not what you really are.

But anyway,there are people who hate on Bryant or even on MJ so anything is possible in this world...

[elementally morale]

Yeah, and Pippen was--according to Chuck Daly--the second best player on the Dream Team, the GOAT team international competition.


When? In 1992? He may have been, but I doubt it. However, 1992 Pippen is prime Pippen and neither Bird nor Magic were in their primes then. And there was Robinson, Malone... I'm not buying what Daly said.





It is a laughable question. If you are as intelligent as you think you are you are simply engaged in trolling. Pippen is top 20-25 all-time according to most people. Gasol is barely top 15 today. How are they comparable?


Pippen is not top 25. He is overrated on this board. He was a very good player but nowhere better than Dirk Nowitzki. Who is also not top 25.




Ah, I see your point now.


It took you a while.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

All this said, I go for Scottie Pippen, by the way. he was great and has achieved more so far. Thats my opinion Today.

I just wanted to express my surprise at people outraged at the question. I dont think the Inquisition should burn Elemantally Morale for posting this..

[Roundball_Rock]

Playing alongside somebody who is considered God by most people plus being white and foreigner and coming from a crap team like Memphis is not the best path to ever getting a MVP vote, regardless your performances on the court.

Yeah, because being white kills you in MVP voting. :oldlol:

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/nash_0506mvp_index.jpg

http://dimemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/dirk-mvp1.jpg


.all Lakers fan will always vote Kobe cos they know that hes the only one who can win the MVP. No matter how good Gasol is they will never split the votes so none of them is a serious candidate for the MVP. Even a blind man can see that.

Obviously you don't know how MVP voting works. Jordan and Pippen finished top 5 in voting the same year once. Five players receive MVP votes on a given ballot. Gasol has never even received a single fifth place vote. That says it all...


The funny thing is Boozer was considered better than Gasol (as was Bosh, Stoudemire, Duncan, KG, and Dirk) as recently as the end of the 2008 season. Gee, what changed?

All these players were all-NBA that year, except for Bosh and he was considered superior to Gasol by most. Again, what changed?


When? In 1992? He may have been, but I doubt it. However, 1992 Pippen is prime Pippen and neither Bird nor Magic were in their primes then. And there was Robinson, Malone... I'm not buying what Daly said.

Okay. Your opinion>that of the guy who coached the team. How about Michael Jordan? According to MJ Pippen was the best guard on the team, better than absolute peak Drexler, better than prime Stockton. They SAW Pippen from the best seats in the house. Did you?


It took you a while.

:oldlol: at your delusions of grandeur. I rarely read your posts. I can detect the agenda of people who I read often but on a site with hundreds of posters am I suppose to know the agendas of every poster?

Troll Hunter, why did you select that name?

[cotdt]

These two seem pretty even individually, and on offense. But Pippen created a lot of plays for the Bulls so that Jordan didn't have to do too much of it, whereas on the Lakers Kobe has to do that. That said, Kobe/Gasol will massively outrebound Jordan/Pippen, small/big combos are simply better as D-Wade has recently said.

[Roundball_Rock]

These two seem pretty individually, and on offense. But Pippen created a lot of plays for the Bulls so that Jordan didn't have to do too much of it, whereas on the Lakers Kobe has to do that. That said, Kobe/Gasol will massively outrebound Jordan/Pippen, small/big combos are simply better as D-Wade has recently said.

I don't recall Jordan-Pippen ever losing by 40 in Game 6 of the NBA finals. 1-1 in the finals>6-0 in the finals? 6-6 in the finals>24-11?


These two seem pretty even individually, and on offense.

How? Gasol was considered the 6th-7th best PF until he began wearing the *purple and gold*. You know--as recently as 2008. Pippen was the best SF of the 90's and a top 5 player for years in his prime. Do LAL fans really think Gasol is top 5????

[elementally morale]

Okay. Your opinion>that of the guy who coached the team. How about Michael Jordan? According to MJ Pippen was the best guard on the team, better than absolute peak Drexler, better than prime Stockton.


And according to Shaq Bryant is the best player in the NBA and Nash's MVP is tainted. Oh, wait... Wade is the best and Nash is the best guard... errr.... point guard... oh, wait, LeBron is the best... Come on. Jordan also thought Kwame was to be good. Talent evaluation coming from Jordan is not something I want.




I can detect the agenda of people who I read often but on a site with hundreds of posters am I suppose to know the agendas of every poster?


If it was an agenda, I stated this clearly. I want to know if Jordan's second option is considered to be much much much better than Kobe's second option. It's a fair question. I can live with any answer, but you can't have it both ways.

BTW, I think I'd vote for Pippen at this point, too. I said so earlier. But I think this comparison is a lot closer than most people think. Then again, in case I had an agenda, it would backfire, because people voting Gasol would make MJ look better (something I allegedly do not want).

At any rate, I still think this comparison is valid. I know your opinion, and you know mine. Let's listen to other people's opinions now for a change.

[elementally morale]

Do LAL fans really think Gasol is top 5????

No. But I think he is top 10 this year.

(And I'm not at all sure Pippen was top 5 for many years. May have been for a few but not many.)

[cotdt]

I don't recall Jordan-Pippen ever losing by 40 in Game 6 of the NBA finals. 1-1 in the finals>6-0 in the finals? 6-6 in the finals>24-11?


Huh? The current Lakers team wouldn't have much trouble beating that Jazz and that Supersonics team either. The 2008 Celtics is a stronger team than what the Bulls had to play. Unfair comparison.

[Roundball_Rock]

Talent evaluation coming from Jordan is not something I want.

How about Chuck Daly? Daly and Jordan SAW Pippen firsthand. How many Dream Team games did you attend? How many practices? You put a lot of stock on contemporaneously seeing, no?


I want to know if Jordan's second option is considered to be much much much better than Kobe's second option. It's a fair question. I can live with any answer, but you can't have it both ways.

Everyone other than LAL fans knows the answer. Even most Jordan fans will say Pippen.

How about their #3, #4, and #5 options? What is the LAL hierarchy? Who is the #3 there? Who is #4? What Jordan fans will tell you is Pippen>Gasol but the rest of the Lakers>the rest of the Bulls. Do you realize Luc Longley was the #4 option on the Bulls???


because people voting Gasol would make MJ look better (something I allegedly do not want).

You, if you are as intelligent as you think you are, very well know only LAL homers are going to say Gasol. The idea is to get a thread of people to say Pippen>Gasol and then pretend that Jordan had a superior team than Kobe. Jordan's team sans him and Pippen sucked. Take Kobe and Gasol off the Lakers and they still have Artest, Bynum, and Odom. That is a solid core. Take Jordan and Pippen off the team and you have a 15 win team.


No. But I think he is top 10 this year.

Can you clarify if you mean top 10 PF or top 10 overall player? You do realize he was considered only the 6th-7th best PF until he began wearing the *purple and gold*?


The current Lakers team wouldn't have much trouble beating that Jazz and that Supersonics team either. The 2008 Celtics is a stronger team than what the Bulls had to play. Unfair comparison.

Really? Malone-Stockton and Hornacek. Payton/Kemp/Schrempf (all three were all-stars)/Hawkins/Perkins. Those were cakewalks? The mighty Lakers had trouble with Artest/Scola/Hayes. Yet they were going to roll over Malone-Stockon or the 96' Sonics?

In order to compare the Lakers to other teams we need to know the pecking order. Who is your #3? Who is #4? Who is #5?

[vert48]

Nice question. Kind of like "So, how long have you been beating your wife?"

I love Gasol, but Pippen was a lot better, imo. Both are great in the Triangle.

[imdaman99]

Both work best as #2 options. Yeah they lead their specific teams as the #1 to the playoffs but neither are great leaders. Let's not be so quick to hail Scottie as this great leader when he was benching himself at the end of games because he was not going to get the last shot. So yes I vote Scottie because he had a greater career, but lets not be so quick to roll our eyes at Gasol when he showed how much of a winner he can be last year as the #2.

[elementally morale]

Roundball_Rock

I know your opinion. Nice. Let's hear other people's takes now. My take for one last time: at this point I vote for Pippen but he was not a top 25 player of all time and no, he was not better than prime Drexler or Stockton. Pippen was also not better than Dirk Nowitzki is, and Dirk is also not a top 25 player of all time. Still, I'd say prime Pippen was a bit better than Pau Gasol now. Not immensely better but better.

So what do other people around here think?



Was Jordan's second fiddle head and shoulders above Kobe's 2nd fiddle?

[Roundball_Rock]

According to Phil Jackson and Pippen's teammates he was a great leader.


but lets not be so quick to roll our eyes at Gasol when he showed how much of a winner he can be last year as the #2.

Amare, Bosh, Boozer, Duncan, Dirk, and KG are all PF's who could have done about as well if not better alongside Kobe than Gasol. Name one SF who was better than Pippen in the 90's.


Let's hear other people's takes now. My take for one last time: at this point I vote for Pippen but he was not a top 25 player of all time and no, he was not better than prime Drexler or Stockton

:oldlol: You can't own up to your hypocrisy. You heard Chuck Daly and Jordan's opinion and dismissed them. Why? Come on. It won't kill you to admit it.

Most people have Pippen top 20-25ish all-time. Gasol is top 10-15 today, and only because he wears the purple and gold. He probably wasn't even top 25 when he was in Memphis. Slam Magazine had him 31st based on the 2008 season (Odom was not far behind-39th). A year later he magically moved up to 14th.

Slam Magazine rankings of PF's based on the 2007-08 season (overall ranking listed)

Duncan #3
Garnett #5
Amare #9
Dirk #12
Boozer #19
Bosh #22
Marion #23
Brand #27
Jamison #29
Gasol #31
Wallace #34
Odom #39

So just over a year ago according to a respected basketball magazine Gasol was 10th best at his position. Now he is among the 10 best players in the league according to many fans? What changed?

[imdaman99]

Amare, Bosh, Boozer and Dirk are usually defensive liabilities. So worried about their offense that they don't try hard enough on defense. You could probably blame a lot of that on coaching but Gasol was the best PF in every series he played in. And he did a great job defending DHoward one on one in the Finals. Yeah Duncan and KG might still be better, although they are clearly on the down swing of their careers.

[cotdt]

Slam Magazine rankings of PF's at the start of 2008-09 (overall ranking listed)

Duncan #3
Garnett #5
Amare #9
Dirk #12
Boozer #19
Bosh #22
Marion #23
Brand #27
Jamison #29
Gasol #31
Wallace #34
Odom #39

So just over a year ago according to a respected basketball magazine Gasol was 10th best at his position. Now he is among the 10 best players in the league according to many fans? What changed?

That list seems to be more based on PAST reputation than their actual impact on the game TODAY. Duncan and Amare have become defensive liabilities, and while KG is still the best interior defender in the league, his production is nowhere near Gasol's. Gasol is a far better rebounder this season, and he plays efficient offense and good defense. Since coming to the Lakers, Gasol's shooting has become much more efficient and he did not even play defense while in Memphis so YES, Gasol is a superior player today compared to his Memphis days.

[Roundball_Rock]

I understand he is a very good player. What I don't understand is a guy who was at best considered 6th-7th at his position, and according to Slam was 10th, just over a year ago is suddenly now considered #1-3 at his position. Anyone who said Gasol>Dirk or Gasol>Amare would have been laughed at of town until recently. What suddenly changed? Dirk, Boozer, Amare, and Bosh are the same if not better than they were then (in other words, people knew about their defense then). Duncan is about the same. KG, Brand, and Marion declined greatly. Did Gasol suddenly improve that much for his 6th season between June of 2008 and October of 2008?


That list seems to be more based on reputation than their actual impact on the game.

Do you want to compare them up to 2008? All those guys had more accolades than Gasol. Yes, even Marion. The hilarious thing is if it was, say, Boozer was wearing purple and gold instead of Gasol he would be the one hyped as the best PF today.

[dbugz]

:no:

Pippen >>>> Kobe >>>> Gasol

I'm a Kobe hater so STFU! :lol

[elementally morale]

You heard Chuck Daly and Jordan's opinion and dismissed them. Why?


I don't dismiss their opinions but I have my own opinion. According to Magic Johnson, Kobe is arguably top 5 all time. I don't dismiss Magic's opinion either, but I don't think Kobe is top 5 all time myself.

Why?

Because I have my own opinion on players.

And again: How old were you when Pipen started his career? 2 years old? 5? I saw his career and it was a great one. However, I wouldn't go as far as to call him a top 25 player of all time. Top 50, yes. Top 35-40 is where I'd rank him, I think. In the range of Dirk somewhere. Pippen had more success, yes. And Jordan and Phil, too.

[rfm767]

This is a great thread. But the perfect cultive for Lakers/Kobe haters to come troll.

[magnax1]

Pippen is quite a bit better. While I think Pippen is pretty over rated anymore, he is just better. Pippen took the Bulls out of the first round without a marquee second option. To me its not that close, and I like Gasol alot more than I like Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll: at the hypocrisy. Daly and Jordan saw all his career. Jordan saw nearly all of his prime with the best seat in the house. He saw him not only in games but in practices. Did you? Were you in the huddle? Were you court-side every night? Were you aware of what the "perfect teammate" (according to one of his teammates, not me) did for his teammates to make them better?


Top 35-40 is where I'd rank him,

That is a distinctly minority view. Even his most effective detractor here has him 22-26 all-time.

You have Pippen top 35-40 and think Gasol is close to him. Does that mean you project Gasol to be top 45-50 all-time when he retires?


This is a great thread. But the perfect cultive for Lakers/Kobe haters to come troll.

Ask EM for the memo regarding his agenda. This is Kobe fan thread aimed at Jordan. The funny thing is Jordan fans have invested so much in diminishing Pippen they are nowhere to be seen in this thread. In every other Pip thread they immediately deploy an armada.

[elementally morale]

That is a distinctly minority view.

I accept that. So? The majority view is that soccer is a much better sport than basketball. Do you share that opinion? Does the fact that you are not sharing it make your opinion less valid?




Daly and Jordan saw all his career.


But they haven't played with or coached Gasol, have they? Jordan's opinion does not account for much. It's the same as asking Shaq who he thinks is the best player in the league. Kobe, Wade or LeBron?





You have Pippen top 35-40 and think Gasol is close to him. Does that mean you project Gasol to be top 45-50 all-time when he retires?


No, unless he wins close to the same number of titles as the 2nd option Pippen has won. A lot of Pippen's high ranking has to do with the fact he was on a championship winning team. I project Gasol a sure shot top 100 when he retires. How much higher depends on how much he is going to win. All time lists have a lot to do with accolades.

[elementally morale]

Ask EM for the memo regarding his agenda. This is Kobe fan thread aimed at Jordan. The funny thing is Jordan fans have invested so much in diminishing Pippen


So where is my 'hidden' agenda again?

If I were to say Kobe is better than people give him credit for, I should be arguing Pippen was A LOT better than Gasol, to make Jordan's achievements look smaller, right?

Where is the logic behind what you say?

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen is the better player, but Gasol probably would have complemented MJ more since he's a big.

What's the purpose of this topic, btw? You're one of the posters who laments the constant Kobe/MJ comparisons, but then you start a topic like this. I will say this: even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much, and overall LA has a far more stacked team, especially relative to the league (and double especially as compared to the '91-'93 Bulls). Jordan wishes he ever had the kind of offensive firepower around him that Kobe has. Two 7'1" centers who can give you 20+ on 55+% any night, a proven 18-20 ppg scorer in Artest, and a proven 16+ ppg scorer in Odom. That's the reason Kobe is shooting so well this year, actually.

[Roundball_Rock]

I accept that. So? The majority view is that soccer is a much better sport than basketball. Do you share that opinion? Does the fact that you are not sharing it make your opinion less valid?

No, but I pointed it out to help you see why many people view comparing these two as absurd.


But they didn't play with or coached Gasol, have they? jordan's opinion does not account for much. It's the same than asking Shaq who he thinks is the best player in the league. Kobe, Wade or LeBron?

He saw all of Gasol's career. Who has more basketball knowledge? A physicist or the best/second best basketball player ever? According to your standard their opinions trump yours.

Two words: analogical reasoning.

1) 1992 Pippen--which was not peak Pippen--was better than peak Drexler and prime Stockton. (according to MJ. Daly went further and said 92' Pippen>everyone on the Dream Team other than Jordan, who was superior, and Barkley, who was Pippen's equal)
2) Peak Drexler and prime Stockton were far better than prime Gasol
3) Therefore Pippen was far better than Gasol

Surely you don't consider Gasol comparable to peak Drexler...


No, unless he wins close to the same number of titles as the 2nd option Pippen has won. A lot of Pippen's high ranking has to do with the fact he was on a championship winning team.

Tony Parker has three rings as the "second option." Therefore Parker>David Robinson?


All time lists have a lot to do with accolades.

Yeah, which is why the OP is a joke

Gasol: 2x all-star, 1x all-NBA third team, 0 all-defensive teams, 0 MVP votes
Pippen: 7x all-star, 3x all-NBA first team, 2x all-NBA second team, 2x all-NBA third team, 8x all-Defensive first team, 2x all-Defensive second team, member of the Dream Team, 3rd in MVP voting in 94', 5th in MVP voting in 96', and received votes in a few other seasons, named the best all-around player in the NBA in 1995 by players, coaches, and GM's.

These are tangible accolades. What we know is Pippen was considered the consensus best SF for several seasons. He was considered the best perimeter player when Jordan was retired. At his peak he was ranked as high as second-best overall by Sports Illustrated and respected observers like Chuck Daly and Bob Ryan. Gasol is not anywhere close to this. Boozer's accolades are a proper comparison to Gasol. Remember, Boozer was considered a better player than Gasol before Pau began wearing the *purple and gold*.


If I were to say Kobe is better than people give him credit for, I should be arguing Pippen was A LOT better than Gasol, to make Jordan's achievements look smaller, right?

Where is the logic behind what you say?

:roll: You knew what most posters would say. No one is fooled by your official position.


What's the purpose of this topic, btw?

To act as if Jordan had more help than Kobe.


even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much

Typical coming from you.


Gasol probably would have complemented MJ more since he's a big.

Who runs the offense? Who gets MJ the ball? What happens to Harper and Paxson since they would need legit PG's without Pippen? Why didn't MJ call for trading Pippen for Kemp? That was on the table in January of 1995 so presumably it was possible in July or November. How about Pippen for a promising young PF in McDyess in 97'?

The rest of your post is good, though.

[U got Served]

How are you going to compare a HOF to Pau Gasol? A guy almost no one even cared about when he was with Memphis a few season ago. ISH trolling at its best.

[elementally morale]

What's the purpose of this topic, btw?

1) To have a better understanding of what you guys think.
2) To show it is really hard to have it both ways at the same time.




I will say this: even if Pippen is more impactful, it's not by much

I agree, that's exactly what I think.




You're one of the posters who laments the constant Kobe/MJ comparisons, but then you start a topic like this.


I'm against comparing MJ to Kobe directly because it is way overdone (and not really justified at this point). You can still make the comparison and Jordan wins it. However, I'm not against looking into the details and I can't remember having seen 2nd fiddle vs. second fiddle discussed here lately.

If my view was the majority veiw, that would make the difference between MJ and Kobe bogger, not smaller. Obviously.

Yet, my view is a minority view (indeed), however, people still use the argument in a strange way, flip-flopping all the time. There is no need. You either think Pippen was BY FAR the best second option there ever was (thus helping MJ a lot more than any other player could help anyone else) OR you think there were/are 2nd fiddles comparable to Pippen and MJ having been head and shoulders above the rest.

I think.

[Roundball_Rock]

How are you going to compare a HOF to Pau Gasol? A guy almost no one even cared about when he was with Memphis a few season ago. ISH trolling at its best.

Exactly. :oldlol: The amusing thing is he pretends it is a legit thread. "Second fiddle vs. second fiddle." Who cares? Compare the teams 2-12. He doesn't want to do that because that would kill his agenda.

Artest>Grant/Rodman
Bynum>Kukoc/Cartwright/Longley
Odom>Harper/Paxson/Armstrong

Luc Longley was MJ's #3 option for half of 98'. :roll:

[elementally morale]

the OP is a joke


So we can conclude Pippen was so much better than Gasol it is not even worth looking into? I can live with that, but there are certain consequences...

And comparing accolades should be done when careers are over. Pippen's already is, Gasol is in his prime, who just started winning. He is most definitely an all star this year, probably all NBA 2nd team, too. Has a chance to win a ring this year. We don't know the future, but Gasol is doing great.

[elementally morale]

Artest>Grant/Rodman
Bynum>Kukoc/Cartwright/Longley
Odom>Harper/Paxson/Armstrong


Artest is not better than Rodman was. Bynum is a lot worse than Kukoc was. Odom I give you.

However, by saying Artest is better than Rodman and Bynum bettr than Kukoc shows you have NOT seen those Bulls team live. No wonder, you were a little kid back then. It's OK, but why are you pretending you know all this stuff?

[drinkingforfun]

Keep Lakers related thread in the Lakers forum if you don't want to get bash.

[Roundball_Rock]

And comparing accolades should be done when careers are over. Pippen's already is, Gasol is in his prime, who just started winning. He is most definitely an all star this year, probably all NBA 2nd team, too. Has a chance to win a ring this year. We don't know the future, but Gasol is doing great.


Gasol is 29. Pippen at 29 had the following accolades:


Pippen: 5x all-star, 3x all-NBA first team, 1x all-NBA second team, 1x all-NBA third team, 4x all-Defensive first team, 1x all-Defensive second team, member of the Dream Team, 3rd in MVP voting in 94' and received votes in a few other seasons, named the best all-around player in the NBA in 1995 by players, coaches, and GM's, 1x all-star game MVP.

Gasol: 2x all-star, 0x all-NBA first team- 0x all-NBA second team, 1x all-NBA third team, 0x all-Defensive team, 0 MVP votes

These are tangible accolades. Pippen at 29 was considered clearly the best SF in the league, the best perimeter player, arguably the best defender in the league, and a top 2-5 player overall.

Player's primes are usually from 27-30. Gasol will start to decline soon. He is what he is. He is a guy who was considered inferior to Boozer and Shawn Marion (Marion 4x all-star, 2x all-NBA third team, 10th and 14th in MVP voting and a DPOY candidate. This crushes Gasol pre-purple and gold) and light years behind a Amare or Bosh until he had the good luck to be traded to the most glamorous team which is in the #2 market.


I can live with that, but there are certain consequences...


Such as? :D

[elementally morale]

Such as? :D

I already said that when answering Loki's question. There is no two ways around this subject.

I think Pippen and Gasol are a lot closer than people think in terms of impact, and there IS a gap between MJ and Kobe. You can take this view, or the one that Pippan was way better than Gasol -- but then the gap between MJ and Kobe gets a lot narrower. Because Rodman was no worse than Artest and Kukoc was better than Bynum is at this point, you know.

[Allstar24]

MJ fans: Gasol
Kobe fans : Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

That was a weak answer. Teams have 12 players, not 2. If you honestly want to discuss help you need to compare the team 2-12, or at least the key players with each other.


Artest is not better than Rodman was.

Artest is an equally dominant defender, probably better because Rodman was inconsistent on D in 97' and 98' because he didn't play hard D nightly, and a far superior offensive player. Artest>Rodman.


d Bynum bettr than Kukoc shows you have NOT seen those Bulls team live

Bynum is the second best center in the league according to many. Kukoc cannot compare to that. Kukoc never even made an all-star team.

How about comparing Odom to the Bulls' fifth best player? That would be either Ron Harper or Luc Longley.

Ah, the hypocrisy again. :roll: :roll:


MJ fans: Gasol
Kobe fans : Pippen

No, but it is amusing that both Kobe and Jordan fans are hyping Gasol while nearly everyone else is saying Pippen>>>Gasol. Kobe fans overrate their guy's teammate; Jordan fans are obsessed with diminishing their hero's teammate. What does that tell you?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Roundball is ejaculating all over this thread.. its almost not even fair.

:applause: :applause:

OP should rephrase the thread from "Better player" to "Which player has the bigger impact".. then we might have a legitimate thread, because Gasol does have a huge impact on the Lakers... his passing and bball IQ are irreplacable on the Lakers.

[elementally morale]

Artest is an equally dominant defender

True. And not half the rebounder Rodman was.



Bynum is the second best center in the league according to many.


I don't care about 'many' when stating my opinion. Bynum so far has never been better than Kukoc was on the Bulls. Especially not the Bynum that plays with Gasol on the floor.




If you honestly want to discuss help you need to compare the team 2-12, or at least the key players with each other


Let's do a few:

Pippen > Gasol
Rodman > Artest
Kukoc > Bynum
Harper / Longley < Odom




Ah, the hypocrisy again. :roll: :roll:

Making these rolling smileys does not help you as much as you think it would.

[elementally morale]

Dizzle-2k7

You were the laughing stock of this board for many years. Your decision of not posting as frequently as you once did helped you a lot in this regard, but stop going overboard and start thinking you suddenly have any kind of original thoughts. You don't.

[Roundball_Rock]

The thing is Gasol could be replaced with at least half a dozen other PF's and similar or better results achieved. He may be better than Boozer but is there that big of a gap between them? In Pippen's case you would lose the best SF. By definition any replacement would be inferior. Maybe in a given year you could plug in 92' Mullin or 97' Hill and not see much of a decline but for the entirety of the 91'-98' run there is no decent replacement. The best SF who was around the whole time and a good player the whole time was Detlef Schrempf...The other thing Pippen brought was he allowed the Bulls to use people like Harper and Paxson as the alleged PG's since he was the primary playmaker/ballhandler. Without him they would need a legit PG. The problem? Jordan had trouble playing with a legit penetrate-and-dish PG. So Jordan's effectiveness would decline either due to a new PG or because he would have to carry the offensive load. You can replace Gasol with Dirk, Duncan, Garnett, Bosh, Amare, Boozer, and perhaps even Shawn Marion (who was considered better than Gasol before 2008) and not lose much.


You were the laughing stock of this board for many years. Your decision of not posting as frequently as you once did helped you a lot in this regard, but stop going overboard and start thinking you suddenly have any kind of original thoughts. You don't.

The arrogance is amusing. Laugh at it, Dizzle.


I don't care about 'many' when stating my opinion. Bynum so far has never been better than Kukoc was on the Bulls. Especially not the Bynum that plays with Gasol on the floor.

Really? Now it is clear as day you are just trolling.


True. And not half the rebounder Rodman was.

Artest's total package was better. All Rodman did better was rebound.


Pippen > Gasol
Rodman > Artest
Kukoc > Bynum
Harper / Longley < Odom

I'll tell you what. Post a thread comparing those players and see how that goes...

[elementally morale]

The arrogance is amusing. Laugh at it, Dizzle.

That's the best he can do, but no amount of laughing will make it any less true. Dizzle actually WAS the laughing stock of this board for many years, known for his absurd homerism for Kobe and Duncan.

True story.

[allball]

I love Pau Gasol's game but the only bigs I would pass up Pippen for are Kareem, Hakeem, Walton (at 77-78 level), Shaq, McHale, Duncan, Russell or Wilt. You just don't find that many SFs that can play D, handle the ball and play with the type of nastiness and tenacity that Pippen played with.

Pau is a very skilled offensive player and a lengthy, capable defender but all in all Pipp was the more effective player.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the best he can do, but no amount of laughing will make it any less true. Dizzle actually WAS the laughing stock of this board for many years, known for his absurd homerism for Kobe and Duncan.

Stand on your own opinion (which >Chuck Daly and Jordan's even though using your logic, in other instances, their opinions are far more valid than yours) and respond to what he said. Surely a posting paragon like you would have no trouble responding to someone you call a "laughing stock"...

[elementally morale]

I'll tell you what. Post a thread comparing those players and see how that goes...


Do the thread yourself, go ahead. Let's say it is 1997 and 2009. I say:

Pippen > Gasol
Rodman >= Artest
Kukoc > Bynum
Harper >= Fisher
Longley < Odom

Go ahead, you can quote this post.

[elementally morale]

Pau is a very skilled offensive player and a lengthy, capable defender but all in all Pipp was the more effective player.

There is noone here disagreeing with that, not even me. The question is: how much is the difference impact-wise?

[Roundball_Rock]

Do the thread yourself, go ahead. Let's say it is 1997 and 2009. I say:

Pippen > Gasol
Rodman >= Artest
Kukoc > Bynum
Harper >= Fisher
Longley < Odom

Go ahead, you can quote this post.

I already got deleted for comparing Fisher to Rodman. Your thread stood so you should do it, especially since you profess to have a desire to see which team ISH thinks is more talented. You can prove this thread was not a troll thread by posting a legit thread on the matter.

[elementally morale]

I already got deleted for comparing Fisher to Rodman. Your thread stood so you should do it, especially since you profess to have a desire to see which team ISH thinks is more talented. You can prove this thread was not a troll thread by posting a legit thread on the matter.

Let's see.

[LA_Showtime]

Let's make this more interesting. Would you rather have MJ/Kobe (one or the other) or Pippen AND Gasol?:D

[Dave3]

Let's make this more interesting. Would you rather have MJ/Kobe (one or the other) or Pippen AND Gasol?:D
Pretty sure most people would pick two stars instead of one superstar right? I never watched basketball before 2001, but was one player that good that you'd take him over Pippen AND Gasol?

[vert48]

Pippen is on every All Decade team from the 90's I have ever see. Gasol has not been on an All Decade for the 00's that I have seen, and would not even be 3rd Team All Decade for 00's.

Pippen will be a first team HOF'r based on his NBA career. Gasol will get there based on future rings and international play, but has no shot at the HOF based on his current NBA career alone.

Pippen - All NBA 1st(3) 2nd(2) 3rd(2), All NBA Def 1st(8) 2nd(2)
Gasol - All NBA 3rd(1)

How is this even a discussion?

[HighFlyer23]

gasol vs pip is actually kinda close ...

[elementally morale]

How is this even a discussion?

Read the thread and you will get the idea. :banana:

[Roundball_Rock]

Pretty sure most people would pick two stars instead of one superstar right? I never watched basketball before 2001, but was one player that good that you'd take him over Pippen AND Gasol?

Pippen was a superstar in his own right. I just wanted to correct that. If you don't think Pippen was then Chris Paul is not a superstar today. I agree with your overall point, though. Even when it comes to two top 10 all-time players I would take a top 20-25 player with another all-star. What did Kobe and Jordan do when they didn't have another great player with them? Teams with two great players, i.e. the Suns with Nash and Amare are much more successful.


Pippen is on every All Decade team from the 90's I have ever see. Gasol has not been on an All Decade for the 00's that I have seen, and would not even be 3rd Team All Decade for 00's.

Pippen will be a first team HOF'r based on his NBA career. Gasol will get there based on future rings and international play, but has no shot at the HOF based on his current NBA career alone.

Pippen - All NBA 1st(3) 2nd(2) 3rd(2), All NBA Def 1st(8) 2nd(2)
Gasol - All NBA 3rd(1)

How is this even a discussion?

:oldlol:

Accolades wise all these PF's are better than Gasol (in no particular order): Duncan, Dirk, KG, Amare, Boozer, Bosh, Elton Brand, and Shawn Marion. These are guys who are still playing. Then there are other 2000's PF's like Chris Webber...

[Allstar24]

No, but it is amusing that both Kobe and Jordan fans are hyping Gasol while nearly everyone else is saying Pippen>>>Gasol. Kobe fans overrate their guy's teammate; Jordan fans are obsessed with diminishing their hero's teammate. What does that tell you?
Actually most Laker fans tend to underrate Gasol. They jumped on the Bynum bandwagon and called him the second best player of the Lakers when he started playing well. I think Gasol is top 3 at his position right now but it IS ridiculous to compare him to a top 50 HOFer with 6 rings. No one with a sane mind would say Gasol is better than Pippen, unless they are MJ fanboys.

[elementally morale]

If you don't think Pippen was then Chris Paul is not a superstar today.


Well, I'm someone who does not think Chris Paul is a superstar today. It's a fair comparison though. Chris Paul is a top 10 player in the league and a top 3 PG. Very good player. Pippen was also a top 10 player in the league and top 3 at his position. There were years he was #1, and there was a year when Paul was #1, too. It's fair.

However, Paul to me is no superstar and Pippen was neither. I just don't throw around superstar status easily, I guess. I'd call both 'stars' without 'super'.

[elementally morale]

No one with a sane mind would say Gasol is better than Pippen, unless they are MJ fanboys.


So far, noone here picked Gasol.

[triangleoffense]

Serious question? That's kinda hard when no one takes you seriously.

[LA_Showtime]

Actually most Laker fans tend to underrate Gasol. They jumped on the Bynum bandwagon and called him the second best player of the Lakers when he started playing well. I think Gasol is top 3 at his position right now but it IS ridiculous to compare him to a top 50 HOFer with 6 rings. No one with a sane mind would say Gasol is better than Pippen, unless they are MJ fanboys.

Better? No. The second option? Maybe. The weeks before Bynum's injury, he was quickly becoming the team's second go to guy. Obviously that hasn't carried to this season, which is a good thing, because Gasol > Bynum at this point.

[elementally morale]

Serious question? That's kinda hard when no one takes you seriously.

Coming from someone whose location is God's country, I'm not surprised. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

The Pippen/Paul analogy was of two top 5 players. They both were #1 at their positions but I could make the same point with Pippen/Howard or Pippen/Wade. You underrate Paul. He is consensus top 5, or at least was before getting hurt this year. There are some people who think there are only three superstars in the league but the consensus would be there are at least half a dozen.


Actually most Laker fans tend to underrate Gasol.

I'll defer to you since you know more about LAL fans than I do for obvious reasons. What I see, though, is 99% of people who call him the best PF are Lakers fans or MJ fans. I consider that overrating him. How is he better than Dirk? He definitely is among the best now, though.

[che guevara]

I would give a slight edge to Pippen, but seriously, Roundball, it isn't a joke to compare them like you're saying it is. His legacy (6 rings) is just blinding you to reality - if we only go by ability on the court, it's close. Pippen's legacy goes way beyond his ability on the basketball court.

Elementally, you're not going to get anywhere discussing Pippen with Roundball. This is a guy who claimed "On offense the only thing Isiah did better was passing. Pippen was an equal scorer". (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154562&page=4)


Well, I'm someone who does not think Chris Paul is a superstar today. It's a fair comparison though. Chris Paul is a top 10 player in the league and a top 3 PG. Very good player. Pippen was also a top 10 player in the league and top 3 at his position. There were years he was #1, and there was a year when Paul was #1, too. It's fair.

However, Paul to me is no superstar and Pippen was neither. I just don't throw around superstar status easily, I guess. I'd call both 'stars' without 'super'.
I agree with you that Pippen wasn't a superstar. Maybe my definition of "superstar" is way too strict, but the only superstars in the league today (at least to me) are Kobe, Lebron, and Wade.

[allball]

There is noone here disagreeing with that, not even me. The question is: how much is the difference impact-wise?

the difference is huge because Pippen can guard 3 positions. he blocks game winners on the perimeter and breaks the will of even the top players. trust me guys lost sleep thinking about playing against Pippen.

[elementally morale]

How is he better than Dirk? He definitely is among the best now, though.

He isn't.

Gasol is playing like a top3-top5 big this year and I'd have him as a top10 player this season. And Dirk is playing like a top5 player and #1 big.

There aren't many posters who say Gasol > Dirk, are there? I saw it maybe twice or three times written here, if that.

[Roundball_Rock]

Shawn Marion's accolades>Gasol's. Is Marion comparable to Pippen? Elton Brand's accolades>Gasol. If Gasol was as good as alleged he would not be comparable to such players. How high was Gasol rated before he began to wear purple and gold? Only some Kobe and MJ fans think Gasol is anywhere near Pippen. The funny thing is none of these people rated him highly less than two years ago! Admit it: were you comparing Gasol to Pippen then? Gasol wasn't even being compared to Boozer or Marion at the time.

Isiah's best year of scoring, adjusted for pace, was on par with Pippen's if not slightly less.

[elementally morale]

Roundball_Rock

If you take a look at the other thread, that voting is a lot closer than you thought it would be, and at the moment.... but take a look at it yourself.

[che guevara]

Shawn Marion's accolades>Gasol's. Is Marion comparable to Pippen? Elton Brand's accolades>Gasol. If Gasol was as good as alleged he would not be comparable to such players. How high was Gasol rated before he began to wear purple and gold?

Isiah's best year of scoring, adjusted for pace, was on par with Pippen's if not slightly less.
So because they scored the same number of points, they were equal scorers? Is that what you're saying? If that's the case, then in 1998, Karl Malone and MJ were nearly equal scorers. 28.7 ppg vs. 27 ppg. This would also mean that Karl Malone was a better scorer than Hakeem. It would also mean that Zach Randolph is a better scorer than Steve Nash.

[Roundball_Rock]

Read the thread. Pippen's numerous ways to score were discussed there.

BTW, were you comparing Gasol to HOF'ers two years ago? Were you even comparing him to Elton Brand and Shawn Marion? The agenda of fans of the "clear GOAT" is hilarious. If the claims made about him were accurate their would be no need to do things like laughably elevate Gasol, who just two years ago was rated less than Shawn Marion and Boozer and was light years behind Amare/Dirk/Bosh/KG/Duncan, to Pippen status.

[imdaman99]

the difference is huge because Pippen can guard 3 positions. he blocks game winners on the perimeter and breaks the will of even the top players. trust me guys lost sleep thinking about playing against Pippen.
not my boy anthony mason though. he would man-handle scottie.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

:eek: :wtf:

Its nearly unbelievable that there are still idiots who think that one player can win a championship himself. Michael Jordan needed Pippen and Kobe need Gasol as well as Shaq needed Kobe. I dont see the point of supporting one of the "second options" so it dimishes the value of the main star. its plain ridiculous. Jordan is not less Jordan for playing alongside Pippen as Kobe is not less Kobe for playing with Gasol. such discussion is more twisted than the Saw movies.

this is just an introduction to say that its RIDICULOUS to judge a player by the titles he wins. A few players have been mentioned as better than Gasol only because of their titles...then, can you trolls reply to me to this: is gasol better than Lebron because he has a ring and Lebron doesnt have any??

oh my...

[che guevara]

Read the thread. Pippen's numerous ways to score were discussed there.

BTW, were you comparing Gasol to HOF'ers two years ago? Were you even comparing him to Elton Brand and Shawn Marion?
If Scottie Pippen was stuck on a crappy team for most of his career, would we even remember his name today? Let's not pretend like he was good enough to carry a bad team deep into the playoffs.

Oh, and to say Pippen was as good a scorer is just ****ing laughable. I can tell you haven't ever seen Isiah play. Elementally, I would like your opinion on this.

[vert48]

Do the thread yourself, go ahead. Let's say it is 1997 and 2009. I say:

Pippen > Gasol
Rodman >= Artest
Kukoc > Bynum
Harper >= Fisher
Longley < Odom

Go ahead, you can quote this post.
Pippen > Gasol
Rodman > Artest
Kukoc > Odom or Bynum (with Bynum it would depend on matchups)
Pippen/Rodman > Gasol/Artest
Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc > Gasol/Artest/Odom
Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc > Gasol/Artest/Bynum (Depends on matchups)
Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Harper > Gasol/Artest/Odom/Fisher
Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Harper > Gasol/Artest/Bynum/Fisher
Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Harper < Gasol/Artest/Bynum/Odom

[Roundball_Rock]

If Scottie Pippen was stuck on a crappy team for most of his career, would we even remember his name today? Let's not pretend like he was good enough to carry a bad team deep into the playoffs.

Evidently you, like many MJ fans, either does not know of or conveniently has forgotten about the 1994 season.

Again, if the claims made about Jordan were accurate there would be no need for absurdities like elevating a Gasol to HOF status. Admit it. If Marion or Boozer was traded to LA you guys would be hyping them as HOF level players.

:roll: at you saving an old thread and trying to divert another thread months later to that topic.

[che guevara]

Evidently you, like many MJ fans, either does not know of or conveniently has forgotten about the 1994 season.

Again, if the claims made about Jordan were accurate their would be no need for absurdities like elevating a Gasol to HOF status. Admit it. If Marion or Boozer was traded to LA you guys would be hyping them as HOF level players.

:roll: at you saving an old thread and trying to divert another thread months later to that topic.
Oh, so I'm an MJ fan now because I'm not completely blinded to reality? :rolleyes: What have I forgotten about 1994? That he was able to bring a team to the second round of the playoffs? That's not a deep playoff run. I'm not elevating Gasol to HOF status by claiming that his impact on the court is close to Pippen's. Pippen's legacy/career goes way beyond his impact on the court.

[vert48]

Evidently you, like many MJ fans, either does not know of or conveniently has forgotten about the 1994 season.

Again, if the claims made about Jordan were accurate their would be no need for absurdities like elevating a Gasol to HOF status. Admit it. If Marion or Boozer was traded to LA you guys would be hyping them as HOF level players.

:roll: at you saving an old thread and trying to divert another thread months later to that topic.Gasol seems to fit the Triangle and playing with Kobe perfectly. Marion would be a horrible fit on the Lakers, but Boozer, minus the Judas attitude, would be a great fit.

[FindingTim]

call me crazy, but i'll take Gasol. it's close though. I think Pau's offense is superior but pippen's defense is superior. if i were starting a team from scratch though, i'd def. pick Gasol.

[NBASTATMAN]

Pau Gasol=0 MVP votes. Ever. Comparing a top 20-25 all-time player to someone who is barely top 15 today is a joke.


Gasol is not a top 15 player.. That is a joke.. Pippen is a better all around player.. But Gasol is excellent in his own right.. Gasol has won international tournaments as the best player.. He has also taken his team to the playoffs as the number one option... Gasol is going to wind up close to Pippen if the Lakers keep winning titles..

[NBASTATMAN]

call me crazy, but i'll take Gasol. it's close though. I think Pau's offense is superior but pippen's defense is superior. if i were starting a team from scratch though, i'd def. pick Gasol.


I don't agree but you make valid points..

[Roundball_Rock]

: What have I forgotten about 1994? That he was able to bring a team to the second round of the playoffs? That's not a deep playoff run.

Yeah, you haven't forgotten anything about 1994. :oldlol:

You are always diminishing Pippen. There is one set of fans who does this. If you aren't a MJ fan you are an exception.


I'm not elevating Gasol to HOF status by claiming that his impact on the court is close to Pippen's.

1x all-star
0 all-NBA teams
0 MVP votes

That was his impact on the court before he began wearing the purple and gold. He was considered the 7th-10th best PF before he came to LA.


Marion would be a horrible fit on the Lakers, but Boozer, minus the Judas attitude, would be a great fit.

Amare, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Duncan, Brand. My point is almost any good PF would have success in LA. Just two years ago he wasn't considered in the same league as some of these guys and not as good as some others yet now he is considered to be the #1-3 PF by many. He is being hyped because he is playing for LA. Any of those guys would see their reputations--which were already equal to or greater than Gasol's at the time--grow in LA. Yeah, you never know for sure how someone will fit in with a team but if the Lakers had a choice between Amare and Gasol or Bosh and Gasol who do you think they would have taken?

[elementally morale]

I'm not elevating Gasol to HOF status by claiming that his impact on the court is close to Pippen's. Pippen's legacy/career goes way beyond his impact on the court.


I'm saying the same thing. I don't know what's the problem with saying this. I really don't. I'm curious if I'm a Jordan fan myself because of this.... especially since I was a huge hater of the guy in the 90s and I don't even think he is the clear cut GOAT (both Kareem and Russell have a case, maybe Wilt as well).

But if I don't think Pippen was a top25 player of all time and a top5 player for a decade, better than Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Robinson and Stockton... then I have to be an MJ homer.

Fuzzy logic.

[elementally morale]

Gasol is going to wind up close to Pippen if the Lakers keep winning titles..


Yes.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm saying the same thing. I don't know what's the problem with saying this. I really don't. I'm curious if I'm a Jordan fan myself because of this.... especially since I was a huge hater of the guy in the 90s and I don't even think he is the clear cut GOAT (both Kareem and Russell have a case, maybe Wilt as well).

But if I don't think Pippen was a top25 player of all time and a top5 player for a decade, better than Barkley, Drexler, Malone, Robinson and Stockton... then I have to be an MJ homer.

Fuzzy logic.

Where did I call you a MJ fan?


Gasol is going to wind up close to Pippen if the Lakers keep winning titles..

That is laughable. You have to know where Pippen "is" to realize why that is laughable. There is a consensus range for great players. Gasol will never even reach James Worthy let alone Pippen. If you think he can get close to Pippen that means you think he can get close to players like KG, Stockton, Barkley, David Robinson and Isiah Thomas.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yeah, you haven't forgotten anything about 1994. :oldlol:

You are always diminishing Pippen. There is one set of fans who does this. If you aren't a MJ fan you are an exception.



1x all-star
0 all-NBA teams
0 MVP votes

That was his impact on the court before he began wearing the purple and gold. He was considered the 7th-10th best PF before he came to LA.



Amare, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Duncan, Brand. My point is almost any good PF would have success in LA. Just two years ago he wasn't considered in the same league as some of these guys and not as good as some others yet now he is considered to be the #1-3 PF by many. He is being hyped because he is playing for LA. Any of those guys would see their reputations--which were already equal to or greater than Gasol's at the time--grow in LA. Yeah, you never know for sure how someone will fit in with a team but if the Lakers had a choice between Amare and Gasol or Bosh and Gasol who do you think they would have taken?



Maybe you are right everyone who plays in LA gets overrated... But Duncan, brand, and amare are not what they were two years ago... Kg is around Gasol in terms of play and Bosh is a very good offensive player but hasn't led his team anywhere.. Gasol led a team in the western conference to the playoffs.. Twice... Bosh has led a team once to the playoffs and his teams are usually the worse defensive teams in the league.. Bosh has also played with a good deal of talent..

[elementally morale]

Pippen is not that close to Barkley, Robinson, Stockton or Isiah. Clearly a tier below.


When were you born, Roundball? Honestly. How many and how much of the primes of these guys have you seen live, and how old were you then?

[Bigsmoke]

a tie. people underrate Gasol's IQ and the impact he has on games.

[Roundball_Rock]

Maybe you are right everyone who plays in LA gets overrated... But Duncan, brand, and amare are not what they were two years ago... Kg is around Gasol in terms of play and Bosh is a very good offensive player but hasn't led his team anywhere.. Gasol led a team in the western conference to the playoffs.. Twice... Bosh has led a team once to the playoffs and his teams are usually the worse defensive teams in the league.. Bosh has also played with a good deal of talent..

Duncan is close although KG has declined considerably.

Amare is recovering from injury. He has played very well lately and looks to be back or at least close to 100%.

Bosh has not had teams as good as Gasol. It is a myth that Gasol had scrubs in Memphis. He had a 50 win team and lost to Dirk's 52 or 53 win team. He lost in a sweep! Dirk outplayed him as well.

How about Boozer? He is as good now--if not better--than he was two years ago.

Marion and Brand have fallen off. The point with them is it shows what class of player he was in at the time. If he wasn't as good as Shawn Marion two years ago what makes him the best or second best PF today? How did he get better than Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Duncan?


Pippen is not that close to Barkley, Robinson, Stockton or Isiah. Clearly a tier below.

Says who? Most lists have him in that group. You have never "seen" any lists from respected sources?

[che guevara]

Yeah, you haven't forgotten anything about 1994. :oldlol:

You are always diminishing Pippen. There is one set of fans who does this. If you aren't a MJ fan you are an exception.



1x all-star
0 all-NBA teams
0 MVP votes

That was his impact on the court before he began wearing the purple and gold. He was considered the 7th-10th best PF before he came to LA.

What did I forget about 1994? Please explain. The one bad call vs the Knicks? He had a chance to prove himself the next year, but the team was in danger of not making the playoffs before Jordan came back.

I'm not diminishing what Pippen did, at all. You're just overrated him so much that I had to say something (Pippen a better scorer than Isiah? You're probably the only intelligent/semi-educated fan on this board who thinks that). Do you REALLY think that Pippen would have gotten any MVP votes, get on all-nba teams, or get nearly as many all-star appearances if he was stuck on a terrible team? Nothing changed about Gasol when he went to the Lakers - just the perception of him changed, and that's why he made the all-star team last year. Not because he was better, but because he finally got exposure.

[che guevara]

Says who? Most lists have him in that group.

I think you just proved why Pippen wasn't nearly as good as them in terms of impact/ability. He won 6 rings, yet he's only in the same tier as Barkley, Isiah, or Robinson? He should be way, way above them.

[elementally morale]

Says who?

I do.



Most lists have him in that group. You have never "seen" any lists from respected sources?

I saw the games, not the lists.

[Roundball_Rock]

He had a chance to prove himself the next year, but the team was in danger of not making the playoffs before Jordan came back.


What happened between June of 1994 and November of 1994?


Do you REALLY think that Pippen would have gotten any MVP votes, get on all-nba teams, or get nearly as many all-star appearances if he was stuck on a terrible team?

Yeah--because he did it!

It may have been a poor choice of words. All I remember is saying Pippen had more ways to score (posting up, mid-range J, slashing to the basket, accurate three pointer). Why is that such a big deal to you anyway? Yeah, I do rate Pip higher than probably everyone here. IS that a surprise? I am a Pippen fan. Most people have him around 22-27 all-time. I have him 18-20. I am not that far off. I am not saying he is top 10.


I think you just proved why Pippen wasn't nearly as good as them in terms of impact/ability. He won 6 rings, yet he's only in the same tier as Barkley, Isiah, or Robinson? He should be way, way above them.

How is him being in the same tier proof that he is inferior to them???


I saw the games, not the lists.

:oldlol: People who also saw the games and have far more basketball knowledge than you have reached very different conclusions. The consensus, ranging from ISH to authors to a basketball magazine is he is in that class.

You may think Lincoln was a horrible president but when someone speaks of, say, Bush or Obama "getting close" to Lincoln that means reaching at least the top 4. It doesn't mean reaching 35th because that is where you have him. Yeah, Gasol may get there in your list but he never will on any consensus list.

Speaking of seeing games, you have posted here since 2006. Did you call Gasol a HOF level player before he came to LA?

[elementally morale]

a tie. people underrate Gasol's IQ and the impact he has on games.


Wow. :applause:

This thread is going much better than I thought it would. :eek:

Strange. I preferred my 'Rock Paper Scissors' thread the other day to this, and I had that 'Replace one player' thread that never got going... now I have this and... interesting.

[elementally morale]

How is him being in the same tier proof that he is inferior to them???


You are not really this dense, are you? Pippen having won 6 rings compared to Barkley's zero and them being close to each other on an all-time lists says something about how people rate their respective impact... think about it.

[che guevara]

What happened between June of 1994 and November of 1994?
Doesn't matter what happened. If he was as great is you're saying, he should at least been able to carry his team to the first round. I'm assuming you're talking about the loss of Horace Grant?


How is him being in the same tier proof that he is inferior to them???
Because he has 6 rings. That should be enough to propel him way above them, but it's only enough to put him in the same tier on an all-time list.

[NBASTATMAN]

Duncan is close although KG has declined considerably.

Amare is recovering from injury. He has played very well lately and looks to be back or at least close to 100%.

Bosh has not had teams as good as Gasol. It is a myth that Gasol had scrubs in Memphis. He had a 50 win team and lost to Dirk's 52 or 53 win team. He lost in a sweep! Dirk outplayed him as well.

How about Boozer? He is as good now--if not better--than he was two years ago.

Marion and Brand have fallen off. The point with them is it shows what class of player he was in at the time. If he wasn't as good as Shawn Marion two years ago what makes him the best or second best PF today? How did he get better than Amare, Bosh, Boozer, and Duncan?



Says who? Most lists have him in that group. You have never "seen" any lists from respected sources?



Amare is only good because he plays with NASH.. Thas is also the case with Marion... Neither has ever been as good as GASOL... Brand too short.. Bosh no defense, Boozer is short and would be garbage without Deron williams... Gasol was the best player on a 50 game win team in the west... Sure he is not as good as Dirk.. Kg and Duncan are now declining and neither has the offensive ability of GASOL... At this point Gasol is the second best power forward in the league.. But Gasol is a much better fit with Kobe than Dirk.. Dirk plays a similar game to Kobe.... Gasol also leads his team in PER....

[elementally morale]

People who also saw the games and have far more basketball knowledge than you have reached very different conclusions. The consensus, ranging from ISH to authors to a basketball magazine is he is in that class.


You failed to answer my question. When did you start watching the NBA and holw old were you then?

BTW, ranking presidents of the US is a horrible idea. Different circumstances, different place in the world, etc. Ranking presidents... why would you do that?

[Roundball_Rock]

You are not really this dense, are you? Pippen having won 6 rings compared to Barkley's zero and them being close to each other on an all-time lists says something about how people rate their respective impact... think about it.

Hakeem is rated near Shaq. That means Hakeem>Shaq since Shaq won twice as many rings and made twice as many NBA finals? Pippen wound up about where he was rated at the time. If you made a "best players of the 90's" list it would resemble how they are ranked all-time.


You failed to answer my question. When did you start watching the NBA and holw old were you then?


I answered that last week or the week before. If you want to embarrass yourself with your hyporcisy feel free to do so.

Yeah, ranking presidents is a horrible idea. :oldol: Historians do it all the time. What morons.


Amare is only good because he plays with NASH.. Thas is also the case with Marion... Neither has ever been as good as GASOL... Brand too short.. Bosh no defense, Boozer is short and would be garbage without Deron williams... Gasol was the best player on a 50 game win team in the west... Sure he is not as good as Dirk.. Kg and Duncan are now declining and neither has the offensive ability of GASOL... At this point Gasol is the second best power forward in the league.. But Gasol is a much better fit with Kobe than Dirk.. Dirk play

Were you saying these things in January of 2008?

[vert48]

Yeah, you never know for sure how someone will fit in with a team but if the Lakers had a choice between Amare and Gasol or Bosh and Gasol who do you think they would have taken?
Having never seen the Triangle run with anything other than a body (Longley/Cartwright), or a monster (Shaq), I did not know what a guy like Gasol would do with it. I certainly think almost everyone would have taken Stat, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Duncan or Boozer over Gasol before the trade (but not Brand or Marion). Obviously, KG, Duncan and Dirk would have been ridiculous, especially at the time.

However, having seen how well Pau plays as the #2 option, in the Triangle, with Kobe, at both C & PF, I would not trade Gasol for KG, Amare, Bosh, or Boozer right now. I would trade him for Dirk straight up, and Duncan for this year. I personally think Boozer would be a better fit than Amare or Bosh.

Can you even imagine what a nightmare a guy like Dirk would be as the #2 option on the Lakers right now?

[elementally morale]

Hakeem is rated near Shaq. That means Hakeem>Shaq since Shaq won twice as many rings and made twice as many NBA finals?


Yes.

[hitmanyr2k]

What did I forget about 1994? Please explain. The one bad call vs the Knicks? He had a chance to prove himself the next year, but the team was in danger of not making the playoffs before Jordan came back.

It's dumb arguments like this that make you look ignorant and I can see why Roundball_rock gets so exasperated arguing with the likes of people who say this stupid sh**. Pippen has to prove himself with a team that consists of

PG - BJ Armstrong/Steve Kerr,
SG - Pete myers/Ron Harper,
PF - Larry Krystowiak, Dickey Simpkins, Greg Foster (or whatever other scrub you want to put in there)
C - Will Perdue

Pippen has to prove himself with THAT team? What the f*** is he going to prove with that team? :oldlol: He wasn't going to win a title alone with that team. The only quality player on the Bulls that year was Kukoc and he wasn't even all-star caliber. All Pippen could do was prove himself to be an elite player which he did with 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-Defense honors.

And for the LAST time (because I hear people say this bullsh** often on these boards), the Bulls were NEVER in danger of missing the playoffs that year. They were basically .500 all year long. They had won 8 of their last 10 games before Jordan even came back and were comfortably in playoff position.




I'm not diminishing what Pippen did, at all. You're just overrated him so much that I had to say something (Pippen a better scorer than Isiah? You're probably the only intelligent/semi-educated fan on this board who thinks that). Do you REALLY think that Pippen would have gotten any MVP votes, get on all-nba teams, or get nearly as many all-star appearances if he was stuck on a terrible team? Nothing changed about Gasol when he went to the Lakers - just the perception of him changed, and that's why he made the all-star team last year. Not because he was better, but because he finally got exposure.

Yes, because he did it as I pointed out above :oldlol: The '95 team was freakin terrible and they were soft in the middle. Even when Jordan came back they were soft in the middle which is why they were desperate and rolled the dice on Dennis Rodman even though he was a misfit in San Antonio.

[imdaman99]

Roundball, its not Gasol's fault he wasn't dealt to the Lakers in a draft day deal like Scottie was. Yeah it's to Gasol's advantage now that he is in a huge market playing alongside arguably the best player in the league. Just like it was Pippen's advantage to be playing on Chicago and having MJ there, because he got more exposure. Give it a few more years and I only see Gasol getting better and better. What was Pippen once he went to Houston and Portland? Oh yeah he was on the downside of his career. It's a shame Pippen never started his career with the Sonics, we could have seen how he developed as a rookie carrying his own team, in a smaller market. Like we got to see or 'not see' for the most part with Gasol in Memphis.

Don't sell me on Pippen being head and shoulders better than Gasol because in most of those battles in the playoffs when it was MJ and Scottie versus my Knicks, Pippen would usually suck while MJ would save the day. Anthony Mason would hold Scottie to his usual 4-11 on FGs games.

[elementally morale]

I certainly think almost everyone would have taken Stat, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Duncan or Boozer over Gasol before the trade


I wanted Gasol on the Lakers all along. There was one (1) poster with the same idea: JtotheIzzo. (People wanted Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand at the time.)

[che guevara]

Hakeem is rated near Shaq. That means Hakeem>Shaq since Shaq won twice as many rings and made twice as many NBA finals? Pippen would up about where he was rated at the time. If you made a "best players of the 90's" list it would resemble how they are ranked all-time.
There are couple of factors here. First, the top 10 list is VERY crowded. Second, if they're in the top 10 list, there are only so many ****ing spots they can move up - nobody can go from top 8 to top -2. Shaq's legacy will improve when he retires, but I already have him above Hakeem on an all time list. Does it mean he had more impact on the court? Besides his peak from 2000-2002, probably not.

[NBASTATMAN]

Shawn Marion's accolades>Gasol's. Is Marion comparable to Pippen? Elton Brand's accolades>Gasol. If Gasol was as good as alleged he would not be comparable to such players. How high was Gasol rated before he began to wear purple and gold? Only some Kobe and MJ fans think Gasol is anywhere near Pippen. The funny thing is none of these people rated him highly less than two years ago! Admit it: were you comparing Gasol to Pippen then? Gasol wasn't even being compared to Boozer or Marion at the time.

Isiah's best year of scoring, adjusted for pace, was on par with Pippen's if not slightly less.




The fact you can compare Marion to Gasol just makes me laugh... :lol


Marion isn't even as good as Odom... Marion is garbage now that he doesn't play with Nash... What some kobe fans do to DISS his teammates..

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes.

:roll: Few people have Hakeem over Shaq.


However, having seen how well Pau plays as the #2 option, in the Triangle, with Kobe, at both C & PF, I would not trade Gasol for KG, Amare, Bosh, or Boozer right now. I would trade him for Dirk straight up, and Duncan for this year. I personally think Boozer would be a better fit than Amare or Bosh.

Can you even imagine what a nightmare a guy like Dirk would be as the #2 option on the Lakers right now?

Yeah now but back then I bet they would fall over themselves to get those guys.

Kobe/Dirk/Bynum/Artest/Odom would be criminal! :eek:



It's dumb arguments like this that make you look ignorant and I can see why Roundrock gets so exasperated arguing with the likes of people who say this stupid sh**. Pippen has to prove himself with a team that consists of

PG - BJ Armstrong/Steve Kerr,
SG - Pete myers/Ron Harper,
PF - Larry Krystowiak, Dickey Simpkins, Greg Foster (or whatever other scrub you want to put in there
C - Will Perdue

Pippen has to prove himself with THAT team? What the f*** is he going to prove with that team? He wasn't going to win a title alone with that team. All he could do was prove himself to be an elite player which he did with 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-Defense honors.

And for the LAST time (because I hear people say this bullsh** often on these boards), the Bulls were NEVER in danger of missing the playoffs that year. They were basically .500 all year long. They had won 8 of their last 10 games before Jordan even came back and were comfortably in playoff position.

:bowdown:


The '95 team was freakin terrible and they were soft in the middle. Even when Jordan came back they were soft in the middle which is why they were desperate and rolled the dice on Dennis Rodman even though he was a misfit in San Antonio.

Most of these people don't know or remember that Rodman's stock was so low at the time that he was traded for a career scrub (Will Perdue). That shows how desperate they were yet they act as if all the Bulls needed was a full season of MJ. Clearly the team itself did not think that--for good reason, as you showed.

[vert48]

I wanted Gasol on the Lakers all along. There was one (1) poster with the same idea: JtotheIzzo. (People wanted Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand at the time.)I remember. A lot of people thought he might end up in Chicago. I definitely wanted him over JO or EB.

[hitmanyr2k]

Roundball, its not Gasol's fault he wasn't dealt to the Lakers in a draft day deal like Scottie was. Yeah it's to Gasol's advantage now that he is in a huge market playing alongside arguably the best player in the league. Just like it was Pippen's advantage to be playing on Chicago and having MJ there, because he got more exposure. Give it a few more years and I only see Gasol getting better and better. What was Pippen once he went to Houston and Portland? Oh yeah he was on the downside of his career. It's a shame Pippen never started his career with the Sonics, we could have seen how he developed as a rookie carrying his own team, in a smaller market. Like we got to see or 'not see' for the most part with Gasol in Memphis.

Don't sell me on Pippen being head and shoulders better than Gasol because in most of those battles in the playoffs when it was MJ and Scottie versus my Knicks, Pippen would usually suck while MJ would save the day. Anthony Mason would hold Scottie to his usual 4-11 on FGs games.

Yeah sure lol. While Jordan was suckin ass in the '93 ECF who was the guy coming up with the big games? With the Bulls down 0-2 to the Knicks who comes out and shoots 3-18 in a must-win game. It sure as hell wasn't Pippen. He only shot 10-12 for 29 points.

[che guevara]

It's dumb arguments like this that make you look ignorant and I can see why Roundrock gets so exasperated arguing with the likes of people who say this stupid sh**. Pippen has to prove himself with a team that consists of

PG - BJ Armstrong/Steve Kerr,
SG - Pete myers/Ron Harper,
PF - Larry Krystowiak, Dickey Simpkins, Greg Foster (or whatever other scrub you want to put in there)
C - Will Perdue

Pippen has to prove himself with THAT team? What the f*** is he going to prove with that team? :oldlol: He wasn't going to win a title alone with that team. The only quality player on the Bulls that year was Kukoc and he wasn't even all-star caliber. All Pippen could do was prove himself to be an elite player which he did with 1st team All-NBA, 1st team All-Defense honors.

And for the LAST time (because I hear people say this bullsh** often on these boards), the Bulls were NEVER in danger of missing the playoffs that year. They were basically .500 all year long. They had won 8 of their last 10 games before Jordan even came back and were comfortably in playoff position.





Yes, because he did it as I pointed out above :oldlol: The '95 team was freakin terrible and they were soft in the middle. Even when Jordan came back they were soft in the middle which is why they were desperate and rolled the dice on Dennis Rodman even though he was a misfit in San Antonio.
You're missing the point. I was just saying that if Pippen was as good as Roundball says he was, they shouldn't have been questionable for the playoffs. I don't actually think Pippen's team was good, or that they were truly in danger of not making the playoffs. I was just exaggerating in an attempt to prove a point.

Oh, and by 1994, Pippen had plenty of exposure - you know, he was the 2nd best player on a team that finished a 3-peat the year before, and this was the team that had the best player and face of the league leave to go play baseball. If he was stuck on a terrible team from the very beginning, he wouldn't have ever had any exposure.

[elementally morale]

I answered that last week or the week before. If you want to embarrass yourself with your hyporcisy feel free to do so.


If I remember correctly, you are 26. So you were 4 years old when Pippen started to play. You were 8-10 years old when the 1st 3-peat occured and you were less than 10 years old when players like Barkley, Isiah, Stockton et al. were in their primes. Yet you want to tell me you can judge Pippen better because you read Daly's take on him.

Do you really believe this?




Yeah, ranking presidents is a horrible idea. :oldol: Historians do it all the time. What morons.

No, historians actually do not do that. There may be a few modern geeks in the US doing that, but tell me a few historians who are creating such lists of politicians.

[elementally morale]

Few people have Hakeem over Shaq.

Not true.

Few people on this board, yes. Why? Due to age. But among guys old enough to have been able to watch Hakeem live... it's mainly a wash between the two. It is not laughable to think Hakeem was better.

[elementally morale]

I remember. A lot of people thought he might end up in Chicago. I definitely wanted him over JO or EB.

Yeah, I remember us having had a few nice conversations about that during several nights after the Lakers got eliminated by the Suns...again. :oldlol:

[vert48]

Yeah now but back then I bet they would fall over themselves to get those guys.

That is exactly what I said, most would have taken Stat, Bosh, Dirk, KG, Duncan or Boozer over Gasol at the time.



Kobe/Dirk/Bynum/Artest/Odom would be criminal! :eek:



:bowdown: I know, that would have been ridirkulous. If that team had Olympic Kobe, only concerned with winning, and letting Dirk light 'em up, they would have a shot at 72+.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball, its not Gasol's fault he wasn't dealt to the Lakers in a draft day deal like Scottie was. Yeah it's to Gasol's advantage now that he is in a huge market playing alongside arguably the best player in the league.

Can you name players who morphed from 7th-10th best to 1st-3rd at their position at age 28 over a single summer? It isn't as if he was a second year player who made a huge leap in his third.

If Pippen started his career in Seattle he would have followed the trajectory of similar players in small to medium markets. Did Payton not get recognition due to Seattle? I think most will agree Pip>Payton.

:oldlol: @ Pippen sucking against the Knicks. He was the MVP of the 93' ECF, dropped 17/11/11 on the Knicks in Game 7 in 92', and had a good series in 94' despite having no help.


anked all-time.
There are couple of factors here. First, the top 10 list is VERY crowded. Second, if they're in the top 10 list, there are only so many ****ing spots they can move up - nobody can go from top 8 to top -2. Shaq's legacy will improve when he retires, but I already have him above Hakeem on an all time list. Does it mean he had more impact on the court? Besides his peak from 2000-2002, probably not.

It was just one example. Does West>Duncan because Duncan won three more rings? David Robinson>Isiah because Isiah's rings "counted" more? Dominique Wilkins>McHale? Kidd>KG? All these guys are ranked near each other. Using the argument made previously you have to believe West>Duncan, Robinson>Isiah, Wilkins>McHale, and Kidd>KG because the guys with better records regarding winning did not separate themselves more. Rings are just one factor in ranking players. As I said earlier, if you made a list of best 90's players Pippen's ranking would approximate to where he wound up on all-time rankings relative to these players.


The fact you can compare Marion to Gasol just makes me laugh..

What I said is Marion has better accolades. That is a fact. Two years ago Gasol was not even rated higher than a Marion. That was my point.


Not true.

Few people on this board, yes. Why? Due to age. But among guys old enough to have been able to watch Hakeem live... it's mainly a wash between the two. It is not laughable to think Hakeem was better.

Really? Why the obsession with the board? There are greater experts out there. Here are some rankings:

Slam Magazine: Shaq #4, Hakeem #13
Simmons: Hakeem #11, Shaq #12
Kalb: Shaq #1, Hakeem #16
ISH forum: Shaq #7, Hakeem #9

Simmons ranked Shaq that low because he viewed him as a slacker. In other words, he doesn't like him and needed a pretext to keep him out th top 10. Everyone else has him ahead of Hakeem, usually by a significant margin.


I know, that would have been ridirkulous. If that team had Olympic Kobe, only concerned with winning, and letting Dirk light 'em up, they would have a shot at 72+.

Fortunately it didn't happen but I bet these same people would today be saying Dirk was the third best player in the L behind Kobe and Lebron if it did.

[bdreason]

Hakeem is rated near Shaq. That means Hakeem>Shaq since Shaq won twice as many rings and made twice as many NBA finals?

Shaq is rated near Hakeem BECAUSE he has more accolades.

If Shaq only had two rings, 2 Finals MVP's, and 1 regular season MVP... Hakeem would more widely be considered the superior player.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Charles Oakley > Pau Gasol

[Bigsmoke]

Charles Oakley > Pau Gasol

really?

[che guevara]

Yeah sure lol. While Jordan was suckin ass in the '93 ECF who was the guy coming up with the big games? With the Bulls down 0-2 to the Knicks who comes out and shoots 3-18 in a must-win game. It sure as hell wasn't Pippen. He only shot 10-12 for 29 points.
K. Great job pointing out ONE series. Jordan was bad in the games 1, 2, 3 and 6, but then in game 4 he dropped 54 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals on 60% shooting. Next game, he got a triple double (29/10/14 on 46% shooting).

And really, it's not like Pippen had an amazing series. He played decently in game 1 (but below his standards), good in game 2, great in game 3, sucked in game 4, and good in game 5 and 6. He only had 1 great game in the entire series, and played at or below his standards for the other 5.

[Abraham Lincoln]

really?
:lol

No, but I would take Oak on my team over him.

[elementally morale]

Really? Why the obsession with the board? There are greater experts out there. Here are some rankings:

Slam Magazine: Shaq #4, Hakeem #13
Simmons: Hakeem #11, Shaq #12
Kalb: Shaq #1, Hakeem #16
ISH forum: Shaq #7, Hakeem #9


You seem to be basing your opinion on what 'experts' think. It is a good thing to do with things like science -- if you don't know just ask an expert. But with music, movies, books and sports?

I don't need an expert to tell me which music I like. I don't need an expert to tell me which movie or book I think is better than another one. And I don't need an expert to tell me what Pippen was capable of. I saw that.

You needing experts takes on Barkley, Drexler and Pippen is mainly due to you not being old enough to have been able to watch them live. This is not a shame... we all were young and tend to grow older.

However, you trying to tell me what Pippen's play was like when you were under 10 years old when he won his 1st three championships... I find it funny. Do you not?

[vert48]

Fortunately it didn't happen but I bet these same people would today be saying Dirk was the third best player in the L behind Kobe and Lebron if it did.There are people who think Dirk is top 3 now. It would be mayhem if he was a Laker. However, as a Laker fan, I would have loved to see it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq is rated near Hakeem BECAUSE he has more accolades.

If Shaq only had two rings, 2 Finals MVP's, and 1 regular season MVP... Hakeem would more widely be considered the superior player.

Rings are not accolades. Those are achievements.

MVP's: Shaq 1, Hakeem 1
FMVP: Shaq 3, Hakeem 2
All-NBA first: Shaq 8, Hakeem 6
All-Defensive first: Hakeem 5, Shaq 0
DPOY: Hakeem 2, Shaq 0

If you are going by accolades then Hakeem>Shaq. The reason Shaq is almost always rated ahead of Hakeem is Shaq simply was a much more dominant player. Hakeem was more skilled but Shaq more dominant, the same way Yao is more skilled than Dwight but Howard is more dominant and the better player.


And really, it's not like Pippen had an amazing series.

According to Sports Illustrated he was the MVP of that series.

[vert48]

If you are going by accolades then Hakeem>Shaq. The reason Shaq is almost always rated ahead of Hakeem is Shaq simply was a much more dominant player. Hakeem was more skilled but Shaq more dominant, the same way Yao is more skilled than Dwight but Howard is more dominant and the better player.Yao is the new Bill Walton. Can't stay on the court.

[Roundball_Rock]

You seem to be basing your opinion on what 'experts' think.

How? Think logically and sequentially.


However, you trying to tell me what Pippen's play was like when you were under 10 years old when he won his 1st three championships... I find it funny. Do you not?

:oldlol: The age card is a last refuge...Okay. I accept that your opinion>mine because you saw Pippen play live on NBC in 92' (surely you caught all the national games. I am sure you saw Pip play 20-25 times in the regular season and then caught every playoff game) and I saw what I saw on ESPN Classic, NBA TV, and YouTube years later. Let's apply that logic further. Chuck Daly saw Scottie Pippen's entire career. Daly coached Pippen. Daly coached against Pippen. Daly saw Pippen on the court numerous times from the sidelines. He saw Pippen in practice. He saw Pippen in huddles. He coached the best players in the NBA in 92' sans Hakeem. Yet your opinion trumps his? This is what is hilarious. Using your own logic your argument is invalid.

[hitmanyr2k]

K. Great job pointing out ONE series. Jordan was bad in the games 1, 2, 3 and 6, but then in game 4 he dropped 54 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals on 60% shooting. Next game, he got a triple double (29/10/14 on 46% shooting).

And really, it's not like Pippen had an amazing series. He played decently in game 1 (but below his standards), good in game 2, great in game 3, sucked in game 4, and good in game 5 and 6. He only had 1 great game in the entire series, and played at or below his standards for the other 5.

What matters is Pippen filled that superstar gap when it was needed. If Pippen doesn't show up for Game 3 and lead the way when Jordan was shooting horrendously the Bulls are possibly looking at being down 0-3 for the series. Guess what? No more historic 3-peat. Jordan is no longer on a pedestal. He's just like Isaih and Magic with back to back titles. And that's the reason I laugh at the "Pippen couldn't lead the Bulls to a title when Jordan was gone" argument. In '94 and '95 when Pippen was having a sub-par game he didn't have another player on those teams that was going to score 25-30 points and relieve the pressure. Jordan sure as hell had that player though and he was damn lucky he did.

[NBASTATMAN]

You seem to be basing your opinion on what 'experts' think. It is a good thing to do with things like science -- if you don't know just ask an expert. But with music, movies, books and sports?

I don't need an expert to tell me which music I like. I don't need an expert to tell me which movie or book I think is better than another one. And I don't need an expert to tell me what Pippen was capable of. I saw that.

You needing experts takes on Barkley, Drexler and Pippen is mainly due to you not being old enough to have been able to watch them live. This is not a shame... we all were young and tend to grow older.

However, you trying to tell me what Pippen's play was like when you were under 10 years old when he won his 1st three championships... I find it funny. Do you not?


.GOOD POST.. As for Pippen, he was a great player... Had alot of soft spots to him though... Still a great player... Similar to Gasol because both are skilled players who seemed soft at one point in their careers but have both proved themselves..

[pierce2008mvp]

Pau Gasol easily. Gasol came in the league getting the same numbers he gets today while Pippen had to be turned into a star.

The better comparison would be Antoine Walker in his prime or Scottie Pippen. Since Pierce <= Jordan and Walker >= Pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

What matters is Pippen filled that superstar gap when it was needed. If Pippen doesn't show up for Game 3 and lead the way when Jordan was shooting horrendously the Bulls are possibly looking at being down 0-3 for the series. Guess what? No more historic 3-peat. Jordan is no longer on a pedestal. He's just like Isaih and Magic with back to back titles. And that's the reason I laugh at the "Pippen couldn't lead the Bulls to a title" when Jordan was gone argument. In '94 and '95 when Pippen was having a sub-par game he didn't have another player on those teams that was going to score 25-30 points and relieve the pressure. Jordan sure as hell had that player though and he was damn lucky he did.

:applause:


.GOOD POST..

If you think poor logic=good posting.

[elementally morale]

The age card is a last refuge...Okay. I accept that your opinion>mine because you saw Pippen play live on NBC in 92' and I saw what I saw on ESPN Classic, NBA TV, and YouTube years later.


The question is: How many games?

You have a point with Daly's opinion being more valuable to someone else than mine. Yes, it would be. If I were you, I'd trust Daly's opinion over mine, too. However, remember the lists you just put in. On one of the lists, Shaq is #1. On another list, he is #12.

Are both of them experts?

[NBASTATMAN]

One question ROUNDBALL.. Did you even watch some of these guys play basketball?

[che guevara]

Can you name players who morphed from 7th-10th best to 1st-3rd at their position at age 28 over a single summer? It isn't as if he was a second year player who made a huge leap in his third.

If Pippen started his career in Seattle he would have followed the trajectory of similar players in small to medium markets. Did Payton not get recognition due to Seattle? I think most will agree Pip>Payton.
Pippen for career. Payton for their prime. And by bad team, I meant a team like Jordan's bulls in the 80s.


:oldlol: @ Pippen sucking against the Knicks. He was the MVP of the 93' ECF, dropped 17/11/11 on the Knicks in Game 7 in 92', and had a good series in 94' despite having no help.
Did I say he sucked?


It was just one example. Does West>Duncan because Duncan won three more rings? David Robinson>Isiah because Isiah's rings "counted" more? Dominique Wilkins>McHale? Kidd>KG? All these guys are ranked near each other. Using the argument made previously you have to believe West>Duncan, Robinson>Isiah, Wilkins>McHale, and Kidd>KG because the guys with better records regarding winning did not separate themselves more. Rings are just one factor in ranking players. As I said earlier, if you made a list of best 90's players Pippen's ranking would approximate to where he wound up on all-time rankings relative to these players.

West or Duncan? I don't know, the only West footage I've seen is on youtube. Robinson over Isiah? Let's not pretend like he never had a good supporting cast. He never got it done in the playoffs (before Duncan). Wilkins over McHale? Even prime vs prime, I'm not so sure. Defense counts too. Kidd over KG? Where is the logic there?

[pierce2008mvp]

Can you name players who morphed from 7th-10th best to 1st-3rd at their position at age 28 over a single summer? It isn't as if he was a second year player who made a huge leap in his third.

If Pippen started his career in Seattle he would have followed the trajectory of similar players in small to medium markets. Did Payton not get recognition due to Seattle? I think most will agree Pip>Payton.

:oldlol: @ Pippen sucking against the Knicks. He was the MVP of the 93' ECF, dropped 17/11/11 on the Knicks in Game 7 in 92', and had a good series in 94' despite having no help.




Payton > Pippen. Payton actually has a DPOY award. That matters when you don't have a league or finals mvp.

And Pippen had plenty of help in 1994. In fact he finished 3rd on his team in the playoffs in Total Wins.

[Roundball_Rock]

You have a point with Daly's opinion being more valuable to someone else than mine. Yes, it would be. If I were you, I'd trust Daly's opinion over mine, too. However, remember the lists you just put in. On one os the lists, Shaq is #1. On another list, he is #12.

So your opinion>mine yet yours is on par with Daly's? The logical conclusion of your own argument is you would have to accept what Daly, Jackson, Jordan, Kerr, those who played against Pip, etc. said. How many NBA finals games did you see?

There is always variance in historical rankings. This is especially true regarding Shaq.


Did I say he sucked?

No, but someone else did.


West or Duncan? I don't know, the only West footage I've seen is on youtube. Robinson over Isiah? Let's not pretend like he never had a good supporting cast. He never got it done in the playoffs (before Duncan). Wilkins over McHale? Even prime vs prime, I'm not so sure. Defense counts too. Kidd over KG? Where is the logic there?

The point is you can't automatically say Pippen<players he is ranked with because he has more rings. That is an absurd argument. If it had any validity you would have to believe all of the above statements regarding those players.

[che guevara]

The point is you can't automatically say Pippen<players he is ranked with because he has more rings. That is an absurd argument. If it had any validity you would have to believe all of the above statements regarding those players.
No, actually, I wouldn't. The all-time ranking thing is very subjective and there are way too many factors that go into it. The argument that Pippen is only ranked with Barkley, Malone, and Robinson because of rings is not at all absurd.

I'm also going to stop arguing this, because we got way off track.

[elementally morale]

So your opinion>mine yet yours is on par with Daly's?


I never said either.

Remember, I started off this thread with a simple question, and you arrived with ridiculing and ad hominem attacks. I said several times that it's nice knowing your opinion, now let's hear some other people's takes on the matter.

I did not say my opinion is 'better' than yours. There is no such thing. An opinion is an opinion. Everybody has one, you know. All I said was you should stop ridiculing a question or an opinion and don't be that trigger happy with ad hominems because you will get it all back (just like Dizzle).

BTW, I also said several times that I'd take Pippen myself... yet you are arguing with me and not with posters having picked Gasol or saying it's a wash. Why is that?

[Roundball_Rock]

No, actually, I wouldn't. The all-time ranking thing is very subjective and there are way too many factors that go into it.

If there was a ranking of 90's players and someone had this:

1) Jordan
2) Shaq
3) Hakeem
4) Malone
5) Barkley
6) Robinson
7) Pippen
8) Stockton
9) Ewing
10) Drexler/Payton

Guys move up and down a few spots but would such a general ranking be absurd? If you looked at most all-time lists and looked at how 90's players (had their prime in the 90's) compared to each other the list would look similar to this. Would Pippen being 7th really be absurd? The guy was the best SF and second best perimeter player of the decade.


I did not say my opinion is 'better' than yours

Really? Why was the age question invoked? Let's see the backpedal. :oldlol:

You complaining about ad hominem attacks. Wow.

[elementally morale]

Pippen was not better than anyone else on that list.

[madmax]

What matters is Pippen filled that superstar gap when it was needed. If Pippen doesn't show up for Game 3 and lead the way when Jordan was shooting horrendously the Bulls are possibly looking at being down 0-3 for the series. Guess what? No more historic 3-peat. Jordan is no longer on a pedestal. He's just like Isaih and Magic with back to back titles. And that's the reason I laugh at the "Pippen couldn't lead the Bulls to a title when Jordan was gone" argument. In '94 and '95 when Pippen was having a sub-par game he didn't have another player on those teams that was going to score 25-30 points and relieve the pressure. Jordan sure as hell had that player though and he was damn lucky he did.

very well said:applause: Jordan stans shouldn't underestimate Pip, cuz without him Mike ain't sniffing any 3 peats or titles whatsoever

[pierce2008mvp]

If there was a ranking of 90's players and someone had this:

1) Jordan
2) Shaq
3) Hakeem
4) Malone
5) Barkley
6) Robinson
7) Pippen
8) Stockton
9) Ewing
10) Drexler/Payton



Pippen was no where near those guys. He was more on the Kevin Johnson and Tom Chambers level type of player.

[hitmanyr2k]

Payton > Pippen. Payton actually has a DPOY award. That matters when you don't have a league or finals mvp.

And Pippen had plenty of help in 1994. In fact he finished 3rd on his team in the playoffs in Total Wins.

**** the DPOY award :oldlol: It's a media award and in case you weren't around that season Gary Payton and his coach campaigned for the damn thing. And the funny thing is the same year Payton won that award Pippen was the only player unanimously chosen for first team All-Defense getting first place votes from ALL coaches. In fact Pippen headlined the All-defense team four years straight from '94 until '97 as the leading votegetter from coaches.

[pierce2008mvp]

very well said:applause: Jordan stans shouldn't underestimate Pip, cuz without him Mike ain't sniffing any 3 peats or titles whatsoever

Pippen never becomes a star without Jordan.

[elementally morale]

Really? Why was the age question invoked? Let's see the backpedal. :oldlol:

Because I wanted to know what you are basing your opinion on.

If I tell you this or that book is a piece of crap and later it turns out I haven't read it, but I read the bestseller list and a few critiques... my opinion wouldn't be really valid.

However, I have no problem with your opinion -- as long as you don't want to attack everyone else not sharing that opinion and as long as you don't try ridiculing people with different takes.

[Roundball_Rock]

**** the DPOY award :oldlol: It's a media award and in case you weren't around that season Gary Payton and his coach campaigned for the damn thing. And the funny thing is the same year Payton won that award Pippen was the only player unanimously chosen for first team All-Defense getting first place votes from ALL coaches. In fact Pippen headlined the All-defense team four years straight from '94 until '97 as the leading votegetter from coaches.

:applause:


Because I wanted to know what you are basing your opinion on.

Why didn't you ask that?


If I tell you this or that book is a piece of crap and later it turns out I haven't read it, but I read the bestseller list and a few critiques... my opinion wouldn't be really valid.

Here it is again. :oldlol: All opinions are equal? You cited books. Why aren't random readers placed in the Pulitzer committee? You want to have it both ways and fail to realize that. Your opinion>mine because I watched the 92' finals on YouTube and not 17 years ago (as if you have a photographic memory of a game you watched that long ago :oldlol: ). The also means Daly>you. Jackson>you. Jordan>you. Kerr>you. Reggie Miller>you. And so on. Yet you want to cite age--not knowledge just age--when convenient but ignore the far superior knowledge o a Daly, Jordan, or Miller.

Ok. I will live up to your high standards of respectful posting.

[che guevara]

If there was a ranking of 90's players and someone had this:

1) Jordan
2) Shaq
3) Hakeem
4) Malone
5) Barkley
6) Robinson
7) Pippen
8) Stockton
9) Ewing
10) Drexler/Payton

Guys move up and down a few spots but would such a general ranking be absurd? If you looked at most all-time lists and looked at how 90's players (had their prime in the 90's) compared to each other the list would look similar to this. Would Pippen being 7th really be absurd? The guy was the best SF and second best perimeter player of the decade.

That's about where I would rank Pippen on a list of players in the 90s, because you take rings into account. Nothing absurd about that. But if we're speaking strictly about their ability on the court, though, I would put a prime Drexler, Ewing, and Payton above Pippen. Probably Stockton, too.

Shaq #2 doesn't make much sense. Hakeem won 2 titles (one of them vs. Shaq), DPOY, and MVP in the 90s. Prime Hakeem had more impact than any version of Shaq in the 90s, and he won more, too. I just don't see how you can rank him that high.

And again, we're way off topic. I'm done discussing this.


very well said:applause: Jordan stans shouldn't underestimate Pip, cuz without him Mike ain't sniffing any 3 peats or titles whatsoever
And Pippen wouldn't have sniffed a ring as the best player on a team unless it was something like the '04 Pistons. Jordan could have gotten it done with a number of different players in the 90s. Maybe not 6 rings - it could be more or less. But we have no clue.

[hitmanyr2k]

Pippen never becomes a star without Jordan.

Pippen never becomes a star without WANTING to get better and putting in the work to get better. Did every player on Jordan's team suddenly turn to gold? Hell no :oldlol: And let's not ignore the coaching staff who put Pippen in the place to succeed and maximize the potential of his skillset.

[elementally morale]

You complaining about ad hominem attacks. Wow.

I'm not complaining. I said you will get it all back. And you will. As long as you (or anyone else) don't (doesn't) do that, I won't answer in that style myself. It's the same as IRL. Until you don't attack me physically, I won't hurt you either. Once you try... I will retaliate.

Watch this thread, see for yourself.

[elementally morale]

All opinions are equal?

As long as you are creating bestseller lists, yes. One buy = one opinion. See: ASG voting.

As soon as you decide for yourself which book to read (again) or which player to prefer, there is one opinion that trumps all: yours.

[pierce2008mvp]

**** the DPOY award :oldlol: It's a media award and in case you weren't around that season Gary Payton and his coach campaigned for the damn thing. And the funny thing is the same year Payton won that award Pippen was the only player unanimously chosen for first team All-Defense getting first place votes from ALL coaches. In fact Pippen headlined the All-defense team four years straight from '94 until '97 as the leading votegetter from coaches.

Despite guys like Mashburn dropping 50 on him in his prime when Jordan wasn't around.

And Penny embarrassing the **** out of him and also Payton locking Pippen down holding him to 34% in the finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's about where I would rank Pippen on a list of players in the 90s, because you take rings into account. Nothing absurd about that. But if we're speaking strictly about their ability on the court, though, I would put a prime Drexler, Ewing, and Payton above Pippen. Probably Stockton, too.

All of those things are debatable. You could also argue Pip higher a few spots based on ability. According to Jordan 92' Pippen, not peak Pippen, was better than peak Drexler and prime Stockton. That isn't the be all or end all but is an example of how some people rated Pippen very high. Chuck Daly, Sports Illustrated, and Bob Ryan were among those who believed Pippen was the second best player in the league at his peak. No one ever had Payton, Ewing, or Stockton that high. Of course, it can be debated. I just wanted to point out it is not absurd to say Pippen was top 5-7 of the 90's.

I did it as an example off the top of my head. You can switch Hakeem and Shaq easily and some of the others can go up or down a few spots.


And Pippen wouldn't have sniffed a ring as the best player on a team unless it was something like the '04 Pistons. Jordan could have gotten it done with a number of different players in the 90s. Maybe not 6 rings - it could be more or less. But we have no clue.

Really? In 94' he was probably on his way to the NBA finals if not for perhaps the worst call ever.


Pippen never becomes a star without WANTING to get better and putting in the work to get better. Did every player on Jordan's team suddenly turn to gold? Hell no And let's not ignore the coaching staff who put Pippen in the place to succeed and maximize the potential of his skillset.

None did. No one playing with Jordan, no one on Jordan's Wizards or Bobcats team has ever even been an all-star let alone a HOFer. As usual, good post. Pippen made Pippen. Saying Jordan made him because he helped him is like saying Moses Malone made Hakeem or, using a contemporary example, Ewing made Yao.



As long as you are creating bestseller lists, yes. One buy = one opinion. See: ASG voting.

As soon as you decide for yourself which book to read (again) or which player to prefer, there is one opinion that trumps all: yours.

We're going in circles here. Let's stick to Pip/Gasol.


Despite guys like Mashburn dropping 50 on him in his prime when Jordan wasn't around.

And Penny embarrassing the **** out of him and also Payton locking Pippen down holding him to 34% in the finals

Yeah, those dumb coaches and players all viewed him as the best or one of the 3-4 best defenders in the league. :oldlol: A scrub scored 30 or something on Jordan. Mashburn was an elite scorer at his peak.

Payton locked down Jordan. Pippen was hurt. Pippen when healthy dropped 21/9/8, 21/9/7, and 21/8/8 in the finals all with world class D. He also had great numbers in 97' despite being hurt.

[AirJordan23]

Pippen was better. I'm sure someone else took the time to explain why so I'm not going to bother going into detail.

[hitmanyr2k]

Despite guys like Mashburn dropping 50 on him in his prime when Jordan wasn't around.


Unfortunately for Mashburn they met twice and the 2nd time Pippen locked Mashburn down something fierce. I actually saw both games. It was obvious Pippen took the first game personal because he played with a nasty streak that I hadn't seen before. I remember one of the plays vividly where he blocked Mashburn's shot, tight-roped the sideline with the ball while glaring at Mashburn and then he took it down the other end and just slammed on the Mavs team :oldlol: He was pretty much doing that all night.



And Penny embarrassing the **** out of him and also Payton locking Pippen down holding him to 34% in the finals.


Secondly , Penny and Pippen went at each other plenty and both won their fair share of battles.

Third, Payton rarely even guarded Pippen in the '96 Finals lol. Did you even watch that series? Pippen and Ron Harper were pretty much playing on one leg throughout the '96 playoffs. Pippen had ankle, knee and back injuries. This was pretty much the end of his prime when his body started breaking down year after year as a result of the mileage.

[El Seano]

Pfft, Rodman got a lot more rebounds whilst having sex with a LOT more women, thus I ask you.

Who's the REAL player?

[elementally morale]

Pfft, Rodman got a lot more rebounds whilst having sex with a LOT more women, thus I ask you.

Who's the REAL player?


This is your 4th post in a row that was designed and intended to be funny. :applause:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Does anyone believe that nyone would take Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Longley over Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom? Let's get real please... :oldlol:

And then you have to remember that MJ won three rings with his first three-peat cast. Anyone taking Pippen/Grant...errr, Paxson... over Gasol/Artest/Bynum/Odom? Like I said, Kobe has a much more stacked cast, especially relative to the rest of the league.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Elementally when Roundball ****s on him: "Uhh.. can someone else chime in? I dont approve"

Elementally when Dizzle ****s on him: "Uhh.. nobody takes you serious.. I dont approve"

Elementally when his boyfriend ****s on him: "Uhh... I approve"

[NBASTATMAN]

Does anyone believe that nyone would take Pippen/Rodman/Kukoc/Longley over Gasol/Bynum/Artest/Odom? Let's get real please... :oldlol:

And then you have to remember that MJ won three rings with his first three-peat cast. Anyone taking Pippen/Grant...errr, Paxson... over Gasol/Artest/Bynum/Odom? Like I said, Kobe has a much more stacked cast, especially relative to the rest of the league.


This whole post is used to try to make excuses.. Just in case Kobe doesn't win a final.. Or to make it look like KObe's team isn't stacked... THE KOBE STANS WILL TRY ANYTHING TO MAKE KOBE LOOK BETTER... One thing I am sure of is that no other superstar has anything close to the talent around him that KOBE has... The front court of the Lakers is on par with teams of the 80's like the Celts and lakers.... Artest, gasol, bynum and off the bench lamar... Lamar would be the second best player on either Miami or the Cavs..


Jerry West is on the record saying the Lakers are by far the most talented team in the league.. That was before they got ARTEST....

[Roundball_Rock]

THE KOBE STANS WILL TRY ANYTHING TO MAKE KOBE LOOK BETTER.

No one goes to the absurd lengths Jordan stans go. Saying Gasol is close to Pippen? None of you were saying that before 2008 and if it were Boozer in purple and gold it would be Boozer who you would be hyping while Gasol would be ignored just as he was when he was considered the 7th-10th best PF in the league pre-LA. I can bet that by this time next year MJ fans will be comparing Artest to Pippen (if he remains in the purple and gold). :oldlol: The real question is why the need for such actions? If the claims made regarding Jordan are accurate there would be no need to go to such lengths...

[NBASTATMAN]

No one goes to the absurd lengths Jordan stans go. Saying Gasol is close to Pippen? None of you were saying that before 2008 and if it were Boozer in purple and gold it would be Boozer who you would be hyping while Gasol would be ignored just as he was when he was considered the 7th-10th best PF in the league pre-LA. I can bet that by this time next year MJ fans will be comparing Artest to Pippen (if he remains in the purple and gold). :oldlol: The real question is why the need for such actions? If the claims made regarding Jordan are accurate there would be no need to go to such lengths...


Nobody was saying that Kobe was close to MJ in 2004-2005 either.. Once Phil Jackson was bought back kobe was once again being compared to MJ.. It is called being in a good system... Gasol is in a good system and a HUGE market.. When Gasol was in Memphis I may have watched him play 2 or 3 times a year... IF THAT...... In LA everyone sees how good he is..

[Roundball_Rock]

Nobody was saying that Kobe was close to MJ in 2004-2005 either..

Kobe averaged 35 ppg in 2006. Gasol now is doing what he has been doing for years. So are Amare, Boozer, Bosh, and Duncan all who were considered better than him less than two years ago.


. Gasol is in a good system and a HUGE market.

He played in LA in 2008, remember?

I am not even going to look at MVP voting at this point. Let's look at all-NBA selections, since that is a good gauge of which players were considered to be elite in a given season.

PF's who made all-NBA ahead of Gasol (who made 0) from 2006-2008

2008

First team: KG
Second team: Amare (as a C), Duncan, Dirk
Third team: Boozer

2007

First team: Duncan, Dirk, Amare (as a C)
Second team: Bosh
Third team: KG

2006

First team: Dirk
Second team: Brand, Duncan
Third team: Marion

Brand did it on the Clippers! Bosh did it in Canada, Boozer in Utah. Other players in small/medium/obscure markets or ignored teams who made all-NBA those years include:

Iverson (Denver)
Duncan
Carmelo
Manu
Boozer
Deron
Garnett (Minnesota)
Parker
Billups (Denver)
Roy

PF's who made all-NBA from 06'-08' when Gasol didn't

KG
Duncan
Dirk
Amare
Bosh
Marion
Boozer
Brand

In other words, nearly every good PF made all-NBA during this period. The "great" Gasol didn't. When Slam Magazine ranked players based on the 2008 season Gasol was 31st, only a few spots ahead of Odom. When Slam ranked players based on the 2009 season Gasol magically rose to 14th.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe averaged 35 ppg in 2006. Gasol now is doing what he has been doing for years. So are Amare, Boozer, Bosh, and Duncan all who were considered better than him less than two years ago.



He played in LA in 2008, remember?

I am not even going to look at MVP voting at this point. Let's look at all-NBA selections, since that is a good gauge of which players were considered to be elite in a given season.

PF's who made all-NBA ahead of Gasol (who made 0) from 2006-2008

2008

First team: KG
Second team: Amare (as a C), Duncan, Dirk
Third team: Boozer

2007

First team: Duncan, Dirk, Amare (as a C)
Second team: Bosh
Third team: KG

2006

First team: Dirk
Second team: Brand, Duncan
Third team: Marion

Brand did it on the Clippers! Bosh did it in Canada, Boozer in Utah. Other players in small/medium/obscure markets or ignored teams who made all-NBA those years include:

Iverson (Denver)
Duncan
Carmelo
Manu
Boozer
Deron
Garnett (Minnesota)
Parker
Billups (Denver)
Roy

PF's who made all-NBA from 06'-08' when Gasol didn't

KG
Duncan
Dirk
Amare
Bosh
Marion
Boozer
Brand

In other words, nearly every good PF made all-NBA during this period. The "great" Gasol didn't. When Slam Magazine ranked players based on the 2008 season Gasol was 31st, only a few spots ahead of Odom. When Slam ranked players based on the 2009 season Gasol magically rose to 14th.



You proved my point.. I mentioned that Kobe was not being considered great the one year that Phil was gone...YOU WROTE THAT KOBE SCORED 35 PTS A GAME IN 2006.. When Phil came back kobe was once again one of the best.. Pau may not have the awards but neither does Deron Williams yet he is considered the second best pt guard... LATA..

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe was much better in 06' (in 05' he was hurt). Besides, Kobe was a top 5 player in the league at that point. Gasol allegedly went from not even being top 5 at his position to being the best or second best PF practically overnight at age 28. Did Gasol dramatically improve between June of 2008 and November of 2008?

Deron Williams is considered a top 2 PG. Why wasn't the "great" Gasol considered a top 5 PF as recently as two years ago? The argument is Gasol was great--close to a HOFer like Pippen--in a small market and it took him going to LA for people to realize it. Williams plays in Utah. People notice his talent. People notice Brandon Jennings in Milwuakee. There are numerous other examples. The truth is if Gasol was as good as MJ and Kobe fans make him out to be people would have realize it years ago. Shawn Marion and Elton Brand made all-NBA. Brand did it in the NBA's version of purgatory. Yet Gasol, almost as good as a HOFer like Pippen, could not? Something doesn't add up...

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe was much better in 06' (in 05' he was hurt). Did Gasol dramatically improve between June of 2008 and November of 2008?

Deron Williams is considered a top 2 PG. Why wasn't the "great" Gasol considered a top 5 PF as recently as two years ago? The argument is Gasol was great--close to a HOFer like Pippen--in a small market and it took him going to LA for people to realize it. Williams plays in Utah. People notice his talent. People notice Brandon Jennings in Milwuakee. There are numerous other examples. The truth is if Gasol was as good as MJ and Kobe fans make him out to be people would have realize it years ago. Shawn Marion and Elton Brand made all-NBA. Brand did it in the NBA's version of purgatory. Yet Gasol, almost as good as a HOFer like Pippen, could not? Something doesn't add up...

How do you compare Pippen to:

Amare
Boozer
Marion
Brand
Bosh

I know you guys will say Dirk, KG>Pippen so I am not even bothering asking that. If you think Pippen>them then Gasol should > them as well. Yet no one could notice it until he went to LA, and even then it took months for people to realize it? He could have been all-NBA in 2008 but wasn't, even though he dominated the headlines for a while after the trade.



Wow you are clueless.. Kobe was not injured in the first half of 2004-05 season.. He shot 39 percent up until he suffered a ankle injury... You don't know your stuff.. I can tell... Name a time when Pippen was featured in a game 7 playoff game... Don't remember one but maybe you can recall one.. GASOL was the reason the Lakers beat Houston in game 7 of the playoffs...

[ZaaaaaH]

How is this thread still running?

Like I said from the start this is a FKN JOKE !

Please dont get me wrong Pau has became a awesome player with very high bball IQ who makes little mistakes but are ya serious? We are talking about Pippen here.... Ya seen him play before?

[NBASTATMAN]

How is this thread still running?

Like I said from the start this is a FKN JOKE !

Please dont get me wrong Pau has became a awesome player with very high bball IQ who makes little mistakes but are ya serious? We are talking about Pippen here.... Ya seen him play before?



Pippen is the better player.. But not by as much as some suggest... It is actually CLOSE....

[ZaaaaaH]

Pippen is the better player.. But not by as much as some suggest... It is actually CLOSE....

ummmmm no its not.

Like I said did you ever watch Pip play and I aint talkin 5-10 games.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow you are clueless.. Kobe was not injured in the first half of 2004-05 season.. He shot 39 percent up until he suffered a ankle injury... You don't know your stuff.. I can tell... Name a time when Pippen was featured in a game 7 playoff game... Don't remember one but maybe you can recall one.. GASOL was the reason the Lakers beat Houston in game 7 of the playoffs...

Pippen rarely needed to go to Game 7. :) If you want an example, 17/11/11 against the Knicks. Game 7 against Houston. Houston without Yao and T Mac. How could this be with the great Gasol paired with a top 3 player in Kobe?

Injuries reduce your odds of getting accolades and reduces your attention. Was he a top 5 talent that year? Are you really comparing the improvement he had with Gasol going from 31st to 14th in one year in Slam's ranking?

Zaah, exactly. None of these people compared Gasol to Pippen before he went to LA. It is all about agendas. If it were Boozer in LA, it would be Boozer they would be hyping as equal to Pippen. Gasol has never received a MVP vote. Why? 0. Not one vote. 10-15 people a year get a vote. Why not Gasol? Gasol was a fluke one-time all-star who never made all-NBA, even though EIGHT other PF's made it from 2006-08. Yet now he is better than all those guys because he plays for LA? :oldlol:

NBASM, how come the great Gasol was third team all-NBA last year? He played in the #2 market, for the most glamorous franchise, and the best team. Yet he couldn't get on the first two teams with all of these advantages? Why? Do you realize Pippen was all-NBA first AND all-defensive first team three straight years?

[NBASTATMAN]

:lol
Pippen rarely needed to go to Game 7. :) If you want an example, 17/11/11 against the Knicks. Game 7 against Houston. Houston without Yao and T Mac. How could this be with the great Gasol paired with a top 3 player in Kobe?

Injuries reduce your odds of getting accolades and reduces your attention. Was he a top 5 talent that year? Are you really comparing the improvement he had with Gasol going from 31st to 14th in one year in Slam's ranking?

Zaah, exactly. None of these people compared Gasol to Pippen before he went to LA. It is all about agendas. If it were Boozer in LA, it would be Boozer they would be hyping as equal to Pippen. Gasol has never received a MVP vote. Why? 0. Not one vote. 10-15 people a year get a vote. Why not Gasol? Gasol was a fluke one-time all-star who never made all-NBA, even though EIGHT other PF's made it from 2006-08. Yet now he is better than all those guys because he plays for LA? :oldlol:



At this point there is no helping you.. You didn't watch the NBA in the 80's or 90's so you don't know what your talking about.. The fact that you keep swearing by the SLAM rankings just made me stop this conversation... :oldlol:

[DC Zephyrs]

Pippen was the better player, but Gasol is still one of the best second options ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

:lol



At this point there is no helping you.. You didn't watch the NBA in the 80's or 90's so you don't know what your talking about.. The fact that you keep swearing by the SLAM rankings just made me stop this conversation... :oldlol:

What do the 80's have to do with comparing Pippen and Gasol? I did watch the 90's. You may have but you are a MJ fan with an agenda. Pippen was a top 2-5 player in his prime. Gasol is barely top 15, and before LA was he even top 25?

Do you realize why I cited Slam? Use your superiority to figure it out. :D

Why do you think everyone other than Kobe and MJ fans has said Pippen was much better????

[Lord Leoshes]

I cant believe that this crap is still going on.


Anyone who thinks that Gasol is in the same class of player as Pippen is, is either a LAL fan, is to young to have seen Pippen in his prime, retarded, or is craving for attention. :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

I cant believe that this crap is still going on.


Anyone who thinks that Gasol is in the same class of player as Pippen is, is either a LAL fan, is to young to have seen Pippen in his prime, retarded, or is craving for attention. :rolleyes:

Or a Jordan fan. The only thing Kobe and MJ fans agree on is Gasol. :oldlol: Unfortunately, Jordan fans hate Pippen. This is strange. Do Hakeem fans hate Drexler? Bird fans McHale? KG fans Pierce? And so on. There is something rotten in Jordan Nation.

The other thing to note is in every Pippen thread there is a brigade of MJ fans deployed. Only a couple showed up in this thread. The rest couldn't bring themselves to write "Pippen was much better than Gasol."

[nnn123]

Or a Jordan fan. Unfortunately, Jordan fans hate Pippen. This is strange. Do Hakeem fans hate Drexler? Bird fans McHale? KG fans Pierce? And so on. There is something rotten in Jordan Nation.

The other thing to note is in every Pippen thread there is a brigade of MJ fans deployed. Only a couple showed up in this thread. The rest couldn't bring themselves to write "Pippen was much better than Gasol."

:lol Guy you need to chill...this is like an obsession for you. How are you any worse than the most obsessive MJ stan? Geez...we get the point, crying about it 24/7 won't really help the cause....

[NBASTATMAN]

:lol Guy you need to chill...this is like an obsession for you. How are you any worse than the most obsessive MJ stan? Geez...we get the point, crying about it 24/7 won't really help the cause....


He keeps on *****ing and not one person on this board has stated that Gasol was better than Pippen... All of a sudden Pippen is the greatest of all time... YES... He was one of the best two way players of all time.. But a choker as well...


Better thing to debate about is that Kobe had a better second weapon than Duncan has ever had... Manu would not be close to the player he is without Duncan.. Gasol's numbers have always been very good.. Even without Kobe.. He led his team to 50 wins... He has even had years where he put up 20 pts 9 reb and close to 5 assists without Kobe.... Tell me how many other Power forwards have done that in the past 5 years.....

[Lord Leoshes]

Or a Jordan fan. The only thing Kobe and MJ fans agree on is Gasol. :oldlol: Unfortunately, Jordan fans hate Pippen. This is strange. Do Hakeem fans hate Drexler? Bird fans McHale? KG fans Pierce? And so on. There is something rotten in Jordan Nation.

The other thing to note is in every Pippen thread there is a brigade of MJ fans deployed. Only a couple showed up in this thread. The rest couldn't bring themselves to write "Pippen was much better than Gasol."



I have noticed that to. You would think Jordan fans would love him, but the difference is this.
Those people are not Bulls fans, only Jordan you know what riders.
Bulls fans love both.

Me personally i hated both, but still knew that they were great players, & if either had joined my team they would have become a fav.

If it was Jordan then he would have become my FAV. Pippen would have been 3rd after ZO, & Timmy.


Oh by the way, Am a Heat fan to make it easier to understand.

[Jacks3]

Grizzlies missed the playoffs three times when Pau was there (and would have been four times if he wasn't traded in 08). He was the leader of teams that won 23 games, 28 games, 22 games, and 13 games (55 games into the 08 season before the trade).Gasol missed 29 games in 2005 and they went 18-11 without him(that's on pace for 51W). The dude was swept in the playoffs 3 straight years...and now he's being compared to one of the 20 greatest players ever. lol what a joke.:oldlol:

[PistonsFan#21]

Or a Jordan fan. The only thing Kobe and MJ fans agree on is Gasol. :oldlol: Unfortunately, Jordan fans hate Pippen. This is strange. Do Hakeem fans hate Drexler? Bird fans McHale? KG fans Pierce? And so on. There is something rotten in Jordan Nation.

The other thing to note is in every Pippen thread there is a brigade of MJ fans deployed. Only a couple showed up in this thread. The rest couldn't bring themselves to write "Pippen was much better than Gasol."

How do MJ fans hate Pippen??? He played a huge role and without him MJ wouldnt have the 6 championships.

Do Kobe fans hate Shaq too?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Pippen while not as offensively potent assome would like, would be as ideal an option to have as any active player due to his on court intelligence and saavy creative tricks that have become extinct now. He was smarter than any active player. '96 Pippen on a team like the 2001 Sixers would likely win the championship today.

[Roundball_Rock]

I have noticed that to. You would think Jordan fans would love him, but the difference is this.
Those people are not Bulls fans, only Jordan you know what riders.
Bulls fans love both.

Good point. Other than two of them I never see them in Bulls game threads or one the Bulls forum. They are never in Rose threads. And so on.

The thing I don't understand is what is their rationale? They say Jordan is the "clear GOAT." So why the need to always diminish his teammate? Fans of every other GOAT candidate don't need to do that. There was a big Kareem thread a while ago. I didn't see a single Magic fan go in there and attack Kareem. If Jordan is the "clear GOAT" why the need to pretend that he won with scrubs?

Statman, comparing Pippen to Gasol is a joke. If you are going to do that you might as well compare Boozer, Marion, and Elton Brand to Pip because they have better accolades than Gasol. There is a reason only Jordan and Lakers fans are saying they are close.


How do MJ fans hate Pippen???

They hate him. They don't hate the wins he brought. :oldlol:


Grizzlies missed the playoffs three times when Pau was there (and would have been four times if he wasn't traded in 08). He was the leader of teams that won 23 games, 28 games, 22 games, and 13 games (55 games into the 08 season before the trade).Gasol missed 29 games in 2005 and they went 18-11 without him(that's on pace for 51W). The dude was swept in the playoffs 3 straight years...and now he's being compared to one of the 20 greatest players ever. lol what a jok

Exactly. :roll: Gasol's new found "fans" are going to claim he had no team around him. Well, neither did Pippen in 95' and he had that team in 6th (only 2 games out of 5th). If Gasol is anywhere near Pippen he should have at least been able to drag his team to 8th place.

[Lord Leoshes]

He keeps on *****ing and not one person on this board has stated that Gasol was better than Pippen... All of a sudden Pippen is the greatest of all time... YES... He was one of the best two way players of all time.. But a choker as well...


Better thing to debate about is that Kobe had a better second weapon than Duncan has ever had... Manu would not be close to the player he is without Duncan.. Gasol's numbers have always been very good.. Even without Kobe.. He led his team to 50 wins... He has even had years where he put up 20 pts 9 reb and close to 5 assists without Kobe.... Tell me how many other Power forwards have done that in the past 5 years.....



You still with the Gasol crap? When you said Kobes 2nd best player thing i thought you were going to say Shaq. Cause no one outside of MEM, & Spain even knew who the hell Gasol was till he joined the Lakers. :ohwell:


Uh isn't Zack doing about the same thing Gasol was doing in MEN?
Now Should we compare Zack to Pippen? :hammerhead:

[Lord Leoshes]

Good point. Other than two of them I never see them in Bulls game threads or one the Bulls forum. They are never in Rose threads. And so on.

The thing I don't understand is what is their rationale? They say Jordan is the "clear GOAT." So why the need to always diminish his teammate? Fans of every other GOAT candidate don't need to do that. There was a big Kareem thread a while ago. I didn't see a single Magic fan go in there and attack Kareem. If Jordan is the "clear GOAT" why the need to pretend that he won with scrubs?

Statman, comparing Pippen to Gasol is a joke. If you are going to do that you might as well compare Boozer, Marion, and Elton Brand to Pip because they have better accolades than Gasol. There is a reason only Jordan and Lakers fans are saying they are close.



They hate him. They don't hate the wins he brought. :oldlol:



Exactly. :roll: Gasol's new found "fans" are going to claim he had no team around him. Well, neither did Pippen in 95' and he had that team in 6th (only 2 games out of 5th). If Gasol is anywhere near Pippen he should have at least been able to drag his team to 8th place.




Well i see allot of that with Wade lovers. They always bad mouth Shaq to make Wade look better.
Am one of the ones who did not like shaq, but Am not stupid to think that he wasn't important to the success of our team.

Some people just blind themselves, & are narrow minded. It,s basically immaturity.

[elementally morale]

It's rather interesting to see how so very hard it is for some people to accept that other people may have different opinions. Even if the opinion differs only slightly (e.g.: Pippen was better than Gasol but his impact on the floor was not that much greater OR Pippen is 35-40 all time not top 25) these people take it as a personal insult.

Then they claim that people picking Gason are Laker fans (there was no Laker fan having picked Gasol, to the contrary, most Laker fans argued Pippen) or they claim MJ fans (in fact no well known MJ fan picked Gasol either) or Kobe fans (in fact all well-known Kobe homers dismissed the idea), etc. For these people it is really hard to understand that others simply think something else becasue... because they just think differently.

Then they claim immaturity and whatnot.

It really is interesting to see.

As for me, in fact I don't give a fcuk whether Gasol or Pippen had more impact on the court. I just asked a question because I wanted to make a few observations. Mission accomplished, thank you very much. As for the debate... who cares, really? Pippen is retired and he won't help any team win in the future. Gasol is playing and he is playing well... and that is all that matters to a Laker fan (me). Whether he will retire as 78th or 49th on a rather hypothetical GOAT list is not my concern.

Still, it was interesting. Thanks for playing. Good night.

[insidious301]

Pau Gasol=0 MVP votes. Ever. Comparing a top 20-25 all-time player to someone who is barely top 15 today is a joke.

Pau Gasol is not even close. Pippen was the best defender of his era and most versatile player maybe the L has seen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pau Gasol is not even close. Pippen was the best defender of his era and most versatile player maybe the L has seen.

Plus a far greater winner, as Jacks showed:


Grizzlies missed the playoffs three times when Pau was there (and would have been four times if he wasn't traded in 08). He was the leader of teams that won 23 games, 28 games, 22 games, and 13 games (55 games into the 08 season before the trade).Gasol missed 29 games in 2005 and they went 18-11 without him(that's on pace for 51W). The dude was swept in the playoffs 3 straight years...and now he's being compared to one of the 20 greatest players ever. lol what a jok

Can anyone envision a team with prime Pippen winning 22 games?

The Shaq-Wade thing makes some sense since they clashed. Pippen-Jordan is odd because they got along. Today we have some good combos. Kobe-Gasol, Nash-Amare, Pierce-Garnett-Allen, Howard-Carter, and a few more. You don't see the same dynamic. If anything people tend to overrate their favorite player's teammates. That makes sense. If you root for a team consistently you are likely going to start liking its players and think more favorably of them. Just look at this thread. Kobe fans are saying Gasol is "close to" Pippen. If you look at threads ranking PF's Kobe fans have Gasol higher than most. Some even have him at #1.

[wang4three]

Pippen was very close to taking the Bulls to the Finals without Mike. Pau Gasol? 0-12 in the post season without Kobe.

Pippen and I sleep easily.

[elementally morale]

Kobe fans are saying Gasol is "close to" Pippen.


Name them. I'm not really a 'Kobe-fan' but you may count me as one just for the fun of it. Who else?

[Lord Leoshes]

It's rather interesting to see how so very hard it is for some people to accept that other people may have different opinions. Even if the opinion differs only slightly (e.g.: Pippen was better than Gasol but his impact on the floor was not that much greater OR Pippen is 35-40 all time not top 25) these people take it as a personal insult.

Then they claim that people picking Gason are Laker fans (there was no Laker fan having picked Gasol, to the contrary, most Laker fans argued Pippen) or they claim MJ fans (in fact no well known MJ fan picked Gasol either) or Kobe fans (in fact all well-known Kobe homers dismissed the idea), etc. For these people it is really hard to understand that others simply think something else becasue... because they just think differently.

Then they claim immaturity and whatnot.

It really is interesting to see.

As for me, in fact I don't give a fcuk whether Gasol or Pippen had more impact on the court. I just asked a question because I wanted to make a few observations. Mission accomplished, thank you very much. As for the debate... who cares, really? Pippen is retired and he won't help any team win in the future. Gasol is playing and he is playing well... and that is all that matters to a Laker fan (me). Whether he will retire as 78th or 49th on a rather hypothetical GOAT list is not my concern.

Still, it was interesting. Thanks for playing. Good night.




You must be implying me, & am sorry for the insinuations.

Am just 39 years old & seen both play from their rookie years. I actually started as a Lakers fan, till 88 when the Heat came out.


My question to you is do you really think that Gasol was as good, As Pipen? or do you think Gaso'ls impact is the same as Pippens?
Or are you a Gasol fan who wants to compare Gasol, & Pippen cause they both won with a dominant SG?

[NBASTATMAN]

Plus a far greater winner, as Jacks showed:



Can anyone envision a team with prime Pippen winning 22 games?

The Shaq-Wade thing makes some sense since they clashed. Pippen-Jordan is odd because they got along. Today we have some good combos. Kobe-Gasol, Nash-Amare, Pierce-Garnett-Allen, Howard-Carter, and a few more. You don't see the same dynamic. If anything people tend to overrate their favorite player's teammates. That makes sense. If you root for a team consistently you are likely going to start liking its players and think more favorably of them. Just look at this thread. Kobe fans are saying Gasol is "close to" Pippen. If you look at threads ranking PF's Kobe fans have Gasol higher than most. Some even have him at #1.



Prime Kobe won 34 games or something like that... Why couldn't prime Pippen win only 22 games.. Coaches and players that you play alongside make things happen... Kobe is a better player than Pip yet his team only won 34 games.. He was only part of 28 of those wins... Get rid of Odom that year and the Lakers would be lucky to win 20 games... 2-16 WITHOUT Odom that year.. I believe....

Pippen was better than Gasol... For the 100th time.. Kobe still has the best supporting cast of any other star in the league.. That is a fact... ROUNDBALL actually compared Artest to GLEND DAVIS THE OTHER DAY... :roll:


Game over... Pippen is better..

[Abraham Lincoln]

ROUNDBALL actually compared Artest to GLEND DAVIS THE OTHER DAY... Link?

[Roundball_Rock]

ROUNDBALL actually compared Artest to GLEND DAVIS THE OTHER DAY

That is a flat out lie. I have never even mentioned Davis on ISH until now.


Prime Kobe won 34 games or something like that...

Yeah--when he was hurt for about a fourth of the season. Gasol was healthy and did little. As someone noted, when Gasol got hurt his team did as well without him as with him (actually slightly better). What a dominant presence. :oldlol:


Kobe still has the best supporting cast of any other star in the league..

I agree. What does that have to do with Pippen vs. Gasol?


You must be implying me, & am sorry for the insinuations.

Don't worry about him. Some opinions are ridiculous and there is nothing wrong with saying that. If someone compared Chris Paul to Sam Cassell what would be the reaction?


Link?

Don't hold your breath for one because it never happened.

[elementally morale]

My question to you is do you really think that Gasol was as good, As Pipen? or do you think Gaso'ls impact is the same as Pippens?
Or are you a Gasol fan who wants to compare Gasol, & Pippen cause they both won with a dominant SG?

I am not and I said neither. It is in the thread though. I asked this question and I told the reason why I asked it. To show that it is silly having it both ways with Pippen, Jordan, Kobe, Gasol and everything else. Read it, if you want to know more.

I'm someone who thinks Pippen was a better individual player than Gasol is, but the difference is not huge. I also think Pippen was in the 35-40 range all time. You may argue he is top 30 but a lot of that has to do with his 6 championships. As a player (w/o the rings) he was no way better than Dirk Nowitzki is, who also is not top 25.

I'm a Laker fan by the way, saw all these players careers and I'm 36. I had no agenda other than I've just told you. In fact I don't care what the answer is to my original question. I wanted to know how people think around these things here. That's basically it.

And no, my post before this one was not directed at you.

[NBASTATMAN]

That is a flat out lie. I have never even mentioned Davis on ISH until now.



Yeah--when he was hurt for about a fourth of the season. Gasol was healthy and did little. As someone noted, when Gasol got hurt his team did as well without him as with him (actually slightly better). What a dominant presence. :oldlol:



I agree. What does that have to do with Pippen vs. Gasol?



Don't worry about him. Some opinions are ridiculous and there is nothing wrong with saying that. If someone compared Chris Paul to Sam Cassell what would be the reaction?



Don't hold your breath for one because it never happened.



My mistake KEN MASTERS made the comparisons.. As for Kobe's 34 win season.. His teammates played better without him than with him.. 6-8 WIthout Kobe... 0-2 Without both kboe and lamar ,... And 28-38 With Kobe, 2-16 without Lamar..

During that season Kobe actually played better after the injury than before...


Another thing I will mention.. During 2000-2002.. The Lakers record without Kobe was better than with him...... See it all makes sense now.. These guys were born to play next to each other...

[Roundball_Rock]

We've been over this before. I couldn't care less what the team did with or without Kobe. You still think I am a Kobe fan? :oldlol:

You cherry picked an outlier. You won't find many--if any--top 50 players (and since you are comparing him to Pippen I assume you believe he is of top 50 all-time caliber) whose teams consistently won 22-23 games. When he got hurt in 07' the team's decline was equivalent to 6 games over 82 games. When he got hurt in 05' the team actually did (very slightly, I think it was +1) better. It didn't happen once but twice. If Gasol was as good as alleged he should have been good enough to drag his team to at least 30 wins. If Gasol was as good as alleged he would not have went 0-12 in the playoffs. He couldn't carry a 50 win team to a single playoff win against a 53 win team?

[Lord Leoshes]

I am not and I said neither. It is in the thread though. I asked this question and I told the reason why I asked it. To show that it is silly having it both ways with Pippen, Jordan, Kobe, Gasol and everything else. Read it, if you want to know more.

I'm someone who thinks Pippen was a better individual player than Gasol is, but the difference is not huge. I also think Pippen was in the 35-40 range all time. You may argue he is top 30 but a lot of that has to do with his 6 championships. As a player (w/o the rings) he was no way better than Dirk Nowitzki is, who also is not top 25.

I'm a Laker fan by the way, saw all these players careers and I'm 36. I had no agenda other than I've just told you. In fact I don't care what the answer is to my original question. I wanted to know how people think around these things here. That's basically it.

And no, my post before this one was not directed at you.



All right that fine.

& about where Pippen would rank? i would have to see the list in front of me, before i can give my honest opinion.
Too many great players & opinions will vary on individuals.


I could say one thing about both (Pippen/Gasol). & that is i would not like either as my #1 star player on my team.

[NBASTATMAN]

We've been over this before. I couldn't care less what the team did with or without Kobe. You still think I am a Kobe fan? :oldlol:

You cherry picked an outlier. You won't find many--if any--top 50 players (and since you are comparing him to Pippen I assume you believe he is of top 50 all-time caliber) whose teams consistently won 22-23 games. When he got hurt in 07' the team's decline was equivalent to 6 games over 82 games. When he got hurt in 05' the team actually did (very slightly, I think it was +1) better. It didn't happen once but twice. If Gasol was as good as alleged he should have been good enough to drag his team to at least 30 wins. If Gasol was as good as alleged he would not have went 0-12 in the playoffs. He couldn't carry a 50 win team to a single playoff win against a 53 win team?


Let Tony Barone or Marc Iavoroni coach a team and that will happen.. What happened to the Lakers when Frank Hamblen took over? It matters.... Great coaches make a huge difference.. To playerS and to teams... Kobe was much worse without Phil... So were the Lakers... Who had some good talent that year.. A year later the Lakers had less talent and won more games... Phil jackson's system and coaching made the difference..

[JustinJDW]

The overrating of Pau Gasol and other Laker players will never end.

http://www.dembot.net/images/facepalm/double_trek_facepalm.jpg

[NBASTATMAN]

The overrating of Pau Gasol and other Laker players will never end.

http://www.dembot.net/images/facepalm/double_trek_facepalm.jpg


On that note... Goodnight to all...

[John Smith]

Pau is just so weak on the defensive end that he isn't close to being better than Dennis Rodman or Bill Lambier, let alone Scottie Pippen. Stupid Thread.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pau is just so weak on the defensive end that he isn't close to being better than Dennis Rodman or Bill Lambier, let alone Scottie Pippen. Stupid Thread.

Gasol is weak on defense? He's excellent on pick and rolls and usually plays them perfectly - you rarely see a guard go by him on a switch or until the defender recovers. He also deters/alters a ton of drives/shots with his length alone. He basically shut down Duncan and KG in the '08 playoffs. You're kidding yourself if you think his defensive impact is anything worse than good.

[Carbine]

He basically shut down Duncan and KG in the '08 playoffs

Clearly you don't remember very well.

Duncan shot a slightly poor shooting percentage because he just missed his shots, not anything to do with the defense Pau was playing. It happens. Players miss shots they typically make at a high percentage.

And Garnett missed wide open jumpers pretty much all series until the last game. That's where the majority of Garnett' offense came from, pick and rolls. Gasol clearly didn't impact his shots there.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Clearly you don't remember very well.

Duncan shot a slightly poor shooting percentage because he just missed his shots, not anything to do with the defense Pau was playing. It happens. Players miss shots they typically make at a high percentage.

And Garnett missed wide open jumpers pretty much all series until the last game. That's where the majority of Garnett' offense came from, pick and rolls. Gasol clearly didn't impact his shots there.

I saw both Duncan and KG struggle to get the looks they usually get vs. Gasol, Duncan especially.

[John Smith]

Gasol is weak on defense? He's excellent on pick and rolls and usually plays them perfectly - you rarely see a guard go by him on a switch or until the defender recovers. He also deters/alters a ton of drives/shots with his length alone. He basically shut down Duncan and KG in the '08 playoffs. You're kidding yourself if you think his defensive impact is anything worse than good.

You must of missed the Bulls game earlier in the week. Derrick Rose was doing finger rolls over his head all day long. Pau is a euro, so he is weak. Even if you throw that stereotype out, there's no denying that Pau Gasol is soft.

[ZeN]

I hate the agenda behind these freakin' threads.. must tear down one player to promore another.. :ohwell:

[sekachu]

Pau Gasol=0 MVP votes. Ever. Comparing a top 20-25 all-time player to someone who is barely top 15 today is a joke.


all I know is the laker suddenly advanced to the final the year gasol joined in 2008, last year they won 66? games and won the championship, this year they are very likely to repeat it.

Gasol might not be MVP or top 20 players which we dont know yet, and his status isn't anywhere near pippen but it doesn't mean he is not as effective as pippen, his impact on the court is absolute.

[zabuza666]

Good god this **** is transperant.

[Roundball_Rock]

all I know is the laker suddenly advanced to the final the year gasol joined in 2008, last year they won 66? games and won the championship, this year they are very likely to repeat it.

They were winning 67% of their games and contending for the #1 seed before he got there that year. People act as if Gasol transformed a 45 win team to a championship team. What did he do when he got to the finals? 15/10. Those are Horace Grant numbers. Odom had 14/9 in the same finals. Last year Gasol had a good finals but 19/9/2 hardly compares to 21/9/8 with world-class defense.


Gasol might not be MVP or top 20 players which we dont know yet, and his status isn't anywhere near pippen but it doesn't mean he is not as effective as pippen, his impact on the court is absolute.

Gasol was not even considered top 20 in the league. Now he is compared to a player most consider top 20-25 all-time simply because he plays for LA? Even people who think Pippen was a total fraud have him around 40th all-time.

Look at the players in those ranges. Is Gasol on par with these guys?


25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham

Notice who is 48th. Gasol today--in his prime and probably at his peak--is not as good as past his prime Dirk. Is Gasol really comparable to these players?

Gasol is 29 years old. He has at best one or two more years of his prime after this year. He is what he is. He may win a few more rings but he is never going to be a player in the MVP conversation or someone who makes all-NBA first or second teams or all-Defensive teams. Even his all-NBA third team selection last year was aided by injuries to Garnett, Amare and Boozer. You may believe Gasol is going to morph into an elite player. More power to you but history shows us it is extremely rare for a player to dramatically improve at age 29 or 30.

Gasol is good and important to his team but there are a half dozen PF's who could do similar things if they were traded to LA. There is a reason why KG, Duncan, Dirk, Amare, Boozer, and Bosh were considered better PF's (so was Shawn Marion and arguably Elton Brand) than Gasol before he went to LA. The same can't be said about Pippen because he was the best SF of his era. By definition replacing him with someone else would be a step backwards for the team, both directly in replacing him with an inferior SF and indirectly in that since Pippen ran the offense (an impact Gasol does not have) and replacing him would mean replacing Paxson and later Ron Harper with a legit PG (the problem? Jordan could not function with a typical PG...). Gasol's impact can directly be replaced with any of those PF's. LA would trade peak Gasol in a heartbeat for past his prime Dirk today. The best SF of an entire decade is "close to" a guy who wasn't even a top 5 PF pre-LA? :confusedshrug: To put it another way, would you trade prime Jason Kidd, the best PG of the 2000's, for prime Chauncey Billups? That is the difference between the best player of his generation at a position and another very good player at the same position.

If you think Gasol is on the same level, or close to, Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, or Gary Payton more power to you, though.

[97 bulls]

They were winning 67% of their games and contending for the #1 seed before he got there that year. People act as if Gasol transformed a 45 win team to a championship team. What did he do when he got to the finals? 15/10. Those are Horace Grant numbers. Odom had 14/9 in the same finals. Last year Gasol had a good finals but 19/9/2 hardly compares to 21/9/8 with world-class defense.



Gasol was not even considered top 20 in the league. Now he is compared to a player most consider top 20-25 all-time simply because he plays for LA? Even people who think Pippen was a total fraud have him around 40th all-time.

Look at the players in those ranges. Is Gasol on par with these guys?



Notice who is 48th. Gasol today--in his prime and probably at his peak--is not as good as past his prime Dirk. Is Gasol really comparable to these players?

Gasol is 29 years old. He has at best one or two more years of his prime after this year. He is what he is. He may win a few more rings but he is never going to be a player in the MVP conversation or someone who makes all-NBA first or second teams or all-Defensive teams. Even his all-NBA third team selection last year was aided by injuries to Garnett, Amare and Boozer. You may believe Gasol is going to morph into an elite player. More power to you but history shows us it is extremely rare for a player to dramatically improve at age 29 or 30.

Gasol is good and important to his team but there are a half dozen PF's who could do similar things if they were traded to LA. There is a reason why KG, Duncan, Dirk, Amare, Boozer, and Bosh were considered better PF's (so was Shawn Marion and arguably Elton Brand) than Gasol before he went to LA. The same can't be said about Pippen because he was the best SF of his era. By definition replacing him with someone else would be a step backwards for the team, both directly in replacing him with an inferior SF and indirectly in that since Pippen ran the offense (an impact Gasol does not have) and replacing him would mean replacing Paxson and later Ron Harper with a legit PG (the problem? Jordan could not function with a typical PG...). Gasol's impact can directly be replaced with any of those PF's. LA would trade peak Gasol in a heartbeat for past his prime Dirk today. The best SF of an entire decade is "close to" a guy who wasn't even a top 5 PF pre-LA? :confusedshrug: To put it another way, would you trade prime Jason Kidd, the best PG of the 2000's, for prime Chauncey Billups? That is the difference between the best player of his generation at a position and another very good player at the same position.

If you think Gasol is on the same level, or close to, Jason Kidd, Dominique Wilkins, or Gary Payton more power to you, though.
gasol would have to be the defensive equivalant of dekembe mutombo to be in pips class.

[Roundball_Rock]

gasol would have to be the defensive equivalant of dekembe mutombo to be in pips class.

:applause: These people don't know Pippen was the leading vote getter for the all-Defensive team for four straight seasons. Gasol can't even make the all-defensive second team. Yet they cite Gasol's "great" defense and don't even mention Pippen's legendary defense (many people consider him the GOAT perimeter defender. Gasol isn't even the best defender at his position today) when they claim Gasol is almost as good as Pippen was? Pippen (21/9/8, 21/9/7, 21/8/8 and these are lines from three finals alone!) is a choker; Gasol (15/10 and 19/9/2 in the finals) is a "great" playoff performer. Agenda anyone?