Kobe and KG, who had worse teammates 2005-2007?

[KG5MVP]

The starting lineups of Kobe and KG between 2005-2007


Kobe 2005
-Caron Butler
-Chucky Atkins
-Lamar Odom
-Chris Mihm

KG 2005
-Latrell Sprewell
-Troy Hudson
-Trenton Hassell
-Ervin Johnson


Kobe 2006
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Chris Mihm
-Brian Cook

KG 2006
-Trenton Hassell
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Marcus Banks


Kobe 2007
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Kwame Brown
-Luke Walton

KG 2007
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Mike James
-Trenton Hassell


wow i've never seen any lineups worse than those 2 team's. These are like the NBDL allstar lineup

[SAKOTXA]

05 and 06 KG, and 07 Kobe.

[KG5MVP]

05 and 06 KG, and 07 Kobe.

it's hard to imagine those lineups in todays games

[SAKOTXA]

it's hard to imagine those lineups in todays games

Lool today's game? This wasn't too long ago...

[KG5MVP]

good thing kobe got his team loaded while still at his prime

[rfm767]

Both teams were epic crap, my condolences to the both of them :violin:

[Prodigy]

Both teams were epic crap, my condolences to the both of them :violin:

They both won rings shortly after so I don't feel too bad for them.

[KG5MVP]

Both teams were epic crap, my condolences to the both of them :violin:

epic is too weak a word to describe players of their magnitude

[rfm767]

If Kobe or KG had won a ring with any of those teams, they would have a solid case for GOAT with that season ALONE. :lol

[Bond007]

Oh my did not realize they had such horrible teams:wtf:

[KG5MVP]

it's not like they had any old elite players/good roleplayers like Duncan had in 2003, the teammates they had were just complete sh!t

except for lamar odom, he's a good roleplayer

[KB2009Champ]

When people rag on kobe for not making it past the first round of the playoffs after shaq was traded, I just laugh because if you arent a die hard laker fan who hung on through the bad times, you might not realize that kobe played with some true scrubs. when people say that dwade gets no help w/his current team, i just laugh.

Do you you guys recognize any of these names? These are guys who at one point, played more than scrub minutes for the lakers:

- Tierre Brown
- Jumaine Jones
- Chucky Atkins
- Laron Profit
- Kwame Brown
- Smush parker
- Brian Cook
- Slava Medvedenko
- Kareem Rush
- Chris Mihm

UNREAL

Atkins, Parker, Mihm and Brown STARTED at some point during that horrid stretch. LMAO

[catzhernandez]

it's not like they had any old elite players/good roleplayers like Duncan had in 2003, the teammates they had were just complete sh!t

except for lamar odom, he's a good roleplayer
Caron Butler? Latrell Sprewell?

[KB2009Champ]

Caron Butler? Latrell Sprewell?


the caron butler we had was definitely not the caron you see today. Dude has obviously gotten much better with time. Sprewell, wasn't that his last year? Its not like he was a great player at that point.

[EricForman]

are these significantly worse than these casts?

antonio daniels
steve smith (32 years old)
malik rose
david robinson (36 years old)

or

eric snow
larry hughes
drew gooden
Z

?

duncan won 58 with the first cast in 2002 and lebron won 50 and went to the finals with the second cast in 2007.

i'm not saying kobe and kg didn't have a bad cast but please stop using it to hype up KG and Kobe. Prime Duncan takes KG and Kobe casts during those years to 50 wins and second round of the playoffs.

[catzhernandez]

are these significantly worse than these casts?

antonio daniels
steve smith (32 years old)
malik rose
david robinson (36 years old)

or

eric snow
larry hughes
drew gooden
Z

?

duncan won 58 with the first cast in 2002 and lebron won 50 and went to the finals with the second cast in 2007.

i'm not saying kobe and kg didn't have a bad cast but please stop using it to hype up KG and Kobe. Prime Duncan takes KG and Kobe casts during those years to 50 wins and second round of the playoffs.
I actually agree with that.

[amfirst]

Caron wasn't well develop yet as a Lakers

[ZeN]

I actually agree with that.

2005-06

William "Smush" Parker
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Tim Duncan
Kwame Brown

With these off the bench: Lamar Odom, Devean George, Chris Mihm


Duncan being on the team basically cancels out the C's or Odom.. and then they would have been horrid at the guard spots. Plus, Duncan would have had to score in a prolific way much like Kobe did. Not to mention that the bench depth is non existant... Also, considering the poor D that Sasha and Smush would deliver, would make Duncan the last line of defense.


They get to 50 wins???


Sure catz.. I believe you..:oldlol:

[KG5MVP]

2005-06

William "Smush" Parker
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Tim Duncan
Kwame Brown

With these off the bench: Lamar Odom, Devean George, Chris Mihm


Duncan being on the team basically cancels out the C's or Odom.. and then they would have been horrid at the guard spots. Plus, Duncan would have had to score in a prolific way much like Kobe did. Not to mention that the bench depth is non existant... Also, considering the poor D that Sasha and Smush would deliver, would make Duncan the last line of defense.


They get to 50 wins???


Sure catz.. I believe you..:oldlol:


ISH overrates Tim duncan too much

[hotsizzle]

2005-06

William "Smush" Parker
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Tim Duncan
Kwame Brown

With these off the bench: Lamar Odom, Devean George, Chris Mihm


Duncan being on the team basically cancels out the C's or Odom.. and then they would have been horrid at the guard spots. Plus, Duncan would have had to score in a prolific way much like Kobe did. Not to mention that the bench depth is non existant... Also, considering the poor D that Sasha and Smush would deliver, would make Duncan the last line of defense.


They get to 50 wins???


Sure catz.. I believe you..:oldlol:

Uh yes they do...who's gonna stop the Smush-Sasha backcourt combo?

[Bond007]

Uh yes they do...who's gonna stop the Smush-Sasha backcourt combo?

LOL

some people are morons

[Waking_Life]

Uh yes they do...who's gonna stop the Smush-Sasha backcourt combo?


Everyonez.

[KG5MVP]

LOL

some people are morons


yea you talking about yourself, he was being sarcastic

[EricForman]

2005-06

William "Smush" Parker
Sasha Vujacic
Luke Walton
Tim Duncan
Kwame Brown

With these off the bench: Lamar Odom, Devean George, Chris Mihm


Duncan being on the team basically cancels out the C's or Odom.. and then they would have been horrid at the guard spots. Plus, Duncan would have had to score in a prolific way much like Kobe did. Not to mention that the bench depth is non existant... Also, considering the poor D that Sasha and Smush would deliver, would make Duncan the last line of defense.


They get to 50 wins???


Sure catz.. I believe you..:oldlol:

Wait, so Duncan being on the team would somehow neglect Odom completely as a player, even though he's one of the more versatile guys who can play the 3? And moving Odom to the bench would make their bench WORSE than with Kobe in place and Odom starting? Nice logic there.

Duncan wouldn't need to score as much as Kobe does. But if he had to carry that cast he'd drop 25 a night easy. His defense would make up for whatever extra points Kobe had put up.

Duncan has won 50+ every year of his frigging career. You don't think he can lead this team to 50? And why use this year? Why not the year with Caron Butler?

You guys wanna argue this and that, the fact is these type of "omg look at their lineup" can be made for everyone.

GP's cast in 2000, when they swept the Lakers in the regular season and finished above .500:

Brent Barry
Rashard Lewis
Ruben Patterson
Vin BAker (out of shape and drunk, averaged 12 and 5)


Nash's cast in 2006, when he went to the ECF

Marion
Tim Thomas
Boris Diaw
Raja Bell

Boris was a bench warmer averaging 4 points coming into this season. Tim Thomas was an underachieving journeyman.

Or take a look at Lebron's cast his four years in the league. These casts were slightly better than Kobe and KG's cast but they actually had significantly more success. So should GP Nash and LEbron fans be starting these same threads?

[eliteballer]

Are u fing kidding me foreman? Diaw doing 14/7/6 Marion doing 22/12/2/2 and Raja with 15 a game for good measure. Bron playing in the weak east with all-star calibar guys like hughes and Z and you're comparing to Smush and Kwame? You serious?

[Lakeshow23]

Man Kobe got such a raw deal. It really sucks.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, all these guys had great players around them in their primes. All of them...

[Waking_Life]

Man Kobe got such a raw deal. It really sucks.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, all these guys had great players around them in their primes. All of them...


Word homie.


Word.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

I nevr thought Kobe had that bad of teammates, especially when I look back on some of the guys Pierce has played with.

[Da KO King]

ISH overrates Tim duncan too much
The most accurate thing said in this thread.

No matter how good Duncan may or may not be, he's not leading any of the crap posted here to second round of the playoffs.

[SAKOTXA]

Wait, so Duncan being on the team would somehow neglect Odom completely as a player, even though he's one of the more versatile guys who can play the 3? And moving Odom to the bench would make their bench WORSE than with Kobe in place and Odom starting? Nice logic there.

Duncan wouldn't need to score as much as Kobe does. But if he had to carry that cast he'd drop 25 a night easy. His defense would make up for whatever extra points Kobe had put up.

Duncan has won 50+ every year of his frigging career. You don't think he can lead this team to 50? And why use this year? Why not the year with Caron Butler?

You guys wanna argue this and that, the fact is these type of "omg look at their lineup" can be made for everyone.

GP's cast in 2000, when they swept the Lakers in the regular season and finished above .500:

Brent Barry
Rashard Lewis
Ruben Patterson
Vin BAker (out of shape and drunk, averaged 12 and 5)


Nash's cast in 2006, when he went to the ECF

Marion
Tim Thomas
Boris Diaw
Raja Bell

Boris was a bench warmer averaging 4 points coming into this season. Tim Thomas was an underachieving journeyman.

Or take a look at Lebron's cast his four years in the league. These casts were slightly better than Kobe and KG's cast but they actually had significantly more success. So should GP Nash and LEbron fans be starting these same threads?

Ok you want to use that year? Let's do this...

Chucky Atkins
Caron Butler
Vlade Divac ( dead man walking )
Brian Cook
Luke Walton
Sasha Vujacic
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant
Slava Medvedenko
Chris Mihm
Kareem Rush ( couldn't make a shot to save his life )
Tony Bobbitt
Tierre Brown
Jumaine Jones
Devean George

My ass Duncan could lead this team to 50 wins...

[MaxFly]

Wait, so Duncan being on the team would somehow neglect Odom completely as a player, even though he's one of the more versatile guys who can play the 3? And moving Odom to the bench would make their bench WORSE than with Kobe in place and Odom starting? Nice logic there.

Duncan wouldn't need to score as much as Kobe does. But if he had to carry that cast he'd drop 25 a night easy. His defense would make up for whatever extra points Kobe had put up.

Duncan has won 50+ every year of his frigging career. You don't think he can lead this team to 50? And why use this year? Why not the year with Caron Butler?


Lol, so Duncan's 25 points and defense would offset the 7 to 10 extra points Bryant was scoring? Where would the rest of the offense come from? Who would be the facilitator on that team? Who would get the ball to Duncan in the spots he operates best in? With the way Odom was playing, Duncan would play brilliantly, but that team would struggle. They'd make they playoffs, and then be bumped in the first round.

If you were to use the Caron Butler team, factor in Duncan being out for 16 games like Bryant was and Odom missing 18 games. And wasn't that the year they had the coach change mid year?

[momo]

epic is too weak a word to describe players of their magnitude

Craptacular maybe?

Craptacular crap might be redundant but... they were super crappy.

Craptacularly craptastic crap.

[JustinJDW]

Ok you want to use that year? Let's do this...

Chucky Atkins
Caron Butler
Vlade Divac ( dead man walking )
Brian Cook
Luke Walton
Sasha Vujacic
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant
Slava Medvedenko
Chris Mihm
Kareem Rush ( couldn't make a shot to save his life )
Tony Bobbitt
Tierre Brown
Jumaine Jones
Devean George

My ass Duncan could lead this team to 50 wins...If you put a Prime 01-03 Tim Duncan on that Team, they could make the 2nd Round. Hell, Kobe was one game away from making it to the 2nd Round in the 06 Playoffs against the Suns.

A Prime Duncan could make the 2nd Round with that cast. He won a Championship with one that wasn't all that much better.

[Bond007]

yea you talking about yourself, he was being sarcastic

idiot i know it was not him i was referring too:wtf:

[plowking]

Miami Heat last year were horrible...

Chalmers
Wade
Diawara
Haslem
Anthony

Not a player over 6'8 in the line up. It sucked playing Houston or the Lakers. We'd get completely dominated down low.

[qrich]

It's funny. I remember when Tierre Brown & Laron Profit were being hyped up and said to have potential to be starters on a good team. Hell, same even happened with Smush/Farmar and now Shannon Brown.

[Allstar24]

If you put a Prime 01-03 Tim Duncan on that Team, they could make the 2nd Round. Hell, Kobe was one game away from making it to the 2nd Round in the 06 Playoffs against the Suns.

A Prime Duncan could make the 2nd Round with that cast. He won a Championship with one that wasn't all that much better.
No f*cking way that team would make the second round.

LMAO @ the second statement :oldlol:

[Artillery]

ISH overrates Tim duncan too much

Says the guy that claimed that "Duncan was never a good defender". If anything, you overrate KG too much.

[SAKOTXA]

If you put a Prime 01-03 Tim Duncan on that Team, they could make the 2nd Round. Hell, Kobe was one game away from making it to the 2nd Round in the 06 Playoffs against the Suns.

A Prime Duncan could make the 2nd Round with that cast. He won a Championship with one that wasn't all that much better.

Chucky Atkins
Caron Butler
Vlade Divac
Brian Cook
Luke Walton
Sasha Vujacic
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant
Slava Medvedenko
Chris Mihm
Kareem Rush
Tony Bobbitt
Tierre Brown
Jumaine Jones
Devean George

Brent Barry
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
Bruce Bowen
Rasho Nesterovic
Robert Horry
Devin Brown
Dion Grover
Linton Johnson
Sean Marks
Nazr Mohammed
Malik Rose
Beno Udrih
Mike Wilks

Lol you have to be ****ting me...

[goldenryan]

young money has just as bad of teammates right now ... but it's not kobe or kevin so nobody talks about it.

delfino
kurt thomas
bogut (injuried alot)
charlie bell

[SAKOTXA]

young money has just as bad of teammates right now ... but it's not kobe or kevin so nobody talks about it.

delfino
tim thomas
bogut (injuried alot)
charlie bell

It's Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas plays in Dallas...

[goldenryan]

It's Kurt Thomas, Tim Thomas plays in Dallas...
yeah, same thing. :lol

[SAKOTXA]

yeah, same thing. :lol

And why would you name Kurt Thomas and not name other players like Ilyasova, Ridnour, Redd, Warrick that are better than him...

[goldenryan]

And why would you name Kurt Thomas and not name other players like Ilyasova, Ridnour, Redd, Warrick that are better than him...
cause redd and ridnour don't play pf. maybe ilyasova is the starter i haven't watched too many bucks games.

[SAKOTXA]

cause redd and ridnour don't play pf. maybe ilyasova is the starter i haven't watched too many bucks games.

Yea, I can tell...

[goldenryan]

Yea, I can tell...

does jennings have a playoff calibre squad? personally i think only the wolves, nets, and maybe golden state have a worse team on paper.

[SAKOTXA]

does jennings have a playoff calibre squad? personally i think only the wolves, nets, and maybe golden state have a worse team on paper.

No, but they are hard nosed guys that play really good defense and make threes...

[goldenryan]

No, but they are hard nosed guys that play really good defense and make threes...
that's a sign of good coaching. but i agree they play hard.

[ZaaaaaH]

Its funny when you look at those rosters.

To OP's question I will say Kobe. People might think of names like Caron,Odom, and Grant. Caron and Grant was strait up sorry. All three of them were sorry. They all fed off Kobe and didnt understand the triangle system.

People saying Duncan would of got 50 wins I agree. I think Duncan with that squad will have better chance of going deep then Kobe besides 06 year because if Lakers won the series like they should of against the Suns I strongly felt like they could of won that year. Kobe was Jordan esk that year. Also there wasn't much good Big during those years.

[gxL]

kobes cast was far worse. it pains me to see them play, but love to see #8 play :P

[pierce2008mvp]

The starting lineups of Kobe and KG between 2005-2007


Kobe 2005
-Caron Butler
-Chucky Atkins
-Lamar Odom
-Chris Mihm

KG 2005
-Latrell Sprewell
-Troy Hudson
-Trenton Hassell
-Ervin Johnson


Kobe 2006
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Chris Mihm
-Brian Cook

KG 2006
-Trenton Hassell
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Marcus Banks


Kobe 2007
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Kwame Brown
-Luke Walton

KG 2007
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Mike James
-Trenton Hassell


wow i've never seen any lineups worse than those 2 team's. These are like the NBDL allstar lineup

Garnett easily.

Kobe had Prime Caron Butler.

[okayabc123]

Caron's best season before he got to the Lakers was with the Lakers. I mean he was only in his 3rd year in the league, people are thinking that Kobe was playing with an all-star or something. Caron made it to the all-star two season after he got traded to the Wizard. So no, that was not a prime Caron when he played for the Lakers.

[Allstar24]

Garnett easily.

Kobe had Prime Caron Butler.
This is how you spot a troll.

[KB2009Champ]

This is how you spot a troll.


For real man. I almost choked on what I was drinking when I saw his/her post. Unreal.

[rfm767]

This is how you spot a troll.
:lol :cheers:

[ACCBaller1403]

Man Kobe got such a raw deal. It really sucks.

MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, all these guys had great players around them in their primes. All of them...

Raw deal?! Comical.

Demanding his way from the team he was drafted by to a top 2 media market team that was primed to win 3 championships before he even got to his prime? Taking 2.5 years off from a championship level team before he gets the most lopsided trade in the modern NBA and getting back to winning championships with a cast of allstar level players?

Right...raw deal. Any player would LOVE to have the raw deal that Kobe was "forced" to deal with.

And before anyone jumps on this post by saying I'm a "hater" or that I don't "watch the games", Kobe is top 2 in the NBA and is a terrific, top 10 all-time player. However, his situation has been one of the best of any star in the league in history.

[EricForman]

Lol, so Duncan's 25 points and defense would offset the 7 to 10 extra points Bryant was scoring? Where would the rest of the offense come from? Who would be the facilitator on that team? Who would get the ball to Duncan in the spots he operates best in? With the way Odom was playing, Duncan would play brilliantly, but that team would struggle. They'd make they playoffs, and then be bumped in the first round.



Wait, what's so outrageous about Duncan's defense offsetting 7 to 10 points? Is 7-10 points that big deal? Duncan makes the game easier for his teammates than Kobe does. You don't think everyone gets a few more open shots with prime TD instead of prime Kobe? Hell, given how bad a ball stopper/ball dominator Kobe was durnig that stretch, switch Duncan with Kobe and every starter's PPG goes up 3-4 points probably. You really think that's outrageous Max?

Come on you're a legit poster. I'd expect this from Eliteballer.

And you guys keep brniging up the Smush/Sasha backcourt and how Duncan wouldn't be able to win with them. You guys talk like Duncan had a stud backcourt from 99 to 2003.

TD played with guys like midget/old Avery Johnson, ancient Terry Porter, Jaren Jackson, 41% shooting Derek Anderson (who was like poor man's Ricky Davis/Jamal Crawford), and Antonio Daniels.

Even in 2003, when Duncan won the damn title, Manu was a rookie with a badly sprained ankle and Parker was so inconsistent he was benched in the 4th quarter of most finals games in favor of Speedy Claxton.

Duncan's 2003 cast is better than Kobe and KG's cast from those years, but not THAT much better. Yet Duncan's results with that cast sh*ts on anything Kobe/KG did with their cast.

Come on Kobe supporters, get real. If there is one minute left in the game I'd be more scared of prime Kobe than prime Duncan, yes. But there is no question as to who is a better choice to carry a team through a season.

[EricForman]

I nevr thought Kobe had that bad of teammates, especially when I look back on some of the guys Pierce has played with.


Ahhh, I forgot to mention Pierce in my earlier post where I mentioned all the weak cast that Duncan, Lebron, had to play with. But yeah Pierce too.

02--Pierce takes this this team to the ECF.

Antoine Walker
Tony Battie
Tony Delk
Kenny Anderson
Mark Blount

So KG/Kobe homers, stop crying for your superstars. What they gone through ain't much different from what many others gone through. Especially when shortly after playing with those supposed "OMGZ, WORST LINEUP EVERZZZ" guys, they were giftwrapped a whole crew of star/veteran/skillful teammates.

[Roundball_Rock]

This is how you spot a troll.

Yup. In the Barkley vs. Garnett thread this guy (aka duncan21mvp/TMacsRockets/More?????) acted as if Barkley played with prime Dr. J and Moses Malone and claimed he played with Hakeem, Pippen, and Drexler all in their primes. :roll:


It is interesting to note how KG never had good teams until he came to Pierce while Barkley had guys like Moses Malone, Dr J, Kevin Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Clyde drexler and Prime Pippen and couldn't win.


Have you ever watched a game before? Barkley certainly had prime Hakeem, Drexler.

:roll:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157554&page=2

[Swaggin916]

Ahhh, I forgot to mention Pierce in my earlier post where I mentioned all the weak cast that Duncan, Lebron, had to play with. But yeah Pierce too.

02--Pierce takes this this team to the ECF.

Antoine Walker
Tony Battie
Tony Delk
Kenny Anderson
Mark Blount

So KG/Kobe homers, stop crying for your superstars. What they gone through ain't much different from what many others gone through. Especially when shortly after playing with those supposed "OMGZ, WORST LINEUP EVERZZZ" guys, they were giftwrapped a whole crew of star/veteran/skillful teammates.

Except for the East was trash then. You had San Antonio, Lakers, Kings, and probably Dallas/Minnesota who would have beaten any team that came out of the east.

The West was tough as hell when KG and Kobe played with those absolutely dreadful teams... they were the only reason why their teams won more than 15 games... and actually ended up being around .500.

Come to think of it I have a lot of respect now for Duncan. I forgot how really subpar that Spurs team was in 02.

Tony Parker was getting pretty good but not like he is now and then you had a bunch of role players after that. stephen Jackson was solid, Bowen a good Defender, Robinson was ancient but still big body, Ginobli was starting to come into his own but was still a role player... Then there was Malik Rose, Speedy Claxton, Kevin Willis... Bums.

I still think Kobe's 07 team was the worst supporting cast of all time. Smush is not even in the NBA... Walton shouldn't be starting for any team... and Kwame Brown is the Jamarcus Russell of the NBA... Then there is Odom who is solid all around player but definitely not a reliable second option.

[Jacks3]

Hell, given how bad a ball stopper/ball dominator Kobe was durnig that stretch, switch Duncan with Kobe and every starter's PPG goes up 3-4 points probably. You really think that's outrageous Max?



.


3-4 extra PPG for every starter? Do you realize how huge a difference that is?:ohwell:

[Lakeshow23]

Raw deal?! Comical.

Demanding his way from the team he was drafted by to a top 2 media market team that was primed to win 3 championships before he even got to his prime? Taking 2.5 years off from a championship level team before he gets the most lopsided trade in the modern NBA and getting back to winning championships with a cast of allstar level players?

Right...raw deal. Any player would LOVE to have the raw deal that Kobe was "forced" to deal with.

And before anyone jumps on this post by saying I'm a "hater" or that I don't "watch the games", Kobe is top 2 in the NBA and is a terrific, top 10 all-time player. However, his situation has been one of the best of any star in the league in history.Fact of the matter is: Kobe had crap teammates during his prime. MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan had good to great teammates during their prime. And so he was given a raw deal in this particular instance.

It's undeniable.

[Lebron23]

Kevin Garnett

[KB2009Champ]

Ahhh, I forgot to mention Pierce in my earlier post where I mentioned all the weak cast that Duncan, Lebron, had to play with. But yeah Pierce too.

02--Pierce takes this this team to the ECF.

Antoine Walker
Tony Battie
Tony Delk
Kenny Anderson
Mark Blount

So KG/Kobe homers, stop crying for your superstars. What they gone through ain't much different from what many others gone through. Especially when shortly after playing with those supposed "OMGZ, WORST LINEUP EVERZZZ" guys, they were giftwrapped a whole crew of star/veteran/skillful teammates.


No one is crying here - except maybe you? Just stating the obvious. Btw if Pierce playing with Ray Allen and KG, two HALL OF FAME players isn't gift wrapping then I know what is.

[04mzwach]

Antoine Walker was pretty good...

[Swaggin916]

Antoine Walker was pretty good...

Nah he just shot all the time. He was like 39% shooter... It would be like Fisher taking 20 shots a game.

[EricForman]

Fact of the matter is: Kobe had crap teammates during his prime. MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan had good to great teammates during their prime. And so he was given a raw deal in this particular instance.

It's undeniable.


Kobe's had a significantly superior cast over other stars in the league for all of his career except for two (three max) and we got people like you here complaining Kobe got a raw deal and implying that Kobe had it bad compared to Jordan (which is truly comical, given how Jordan's best teammate on his best day wasn't 90% as good as prime Shaq)

Kobe came into the league on a team with three other all stars, played with prime Shaq, played on two of the most stacked teams of the modern era (04 Lakers and current Lakers) and yet you guys believe there's a need to remind everyone how bad he had it for two years (TWO!) of his freaking career.

notice KG fans arent here getting all defensive about the duncan comment and making a deal (probably cause they AGREE that duncan woulda done more with KG/Kobe's cast as well) but Kobe fans are here making a deal.

Nevermind the fact you guys can't debunk my point that Pierce, Lebron all had similarly bad cast and went somewhere. Or that Duncan and Nash had a slightly better cast and had dramatically more success...

:confusedshrug:

I'm not even a Kobe hater (anymore), check out how I defended him in the "how many rings does Kobe have to win to surpass Hakeem" thread, and I'm not a huge Duncan fan, but I cannot accept you homers even trying to imply how Duncan had it better than Kobe in terms of supporting casts. Duncan has won more with less than Kobe ever has. Never has Duncan had a cast as strong as what Kobe has now or had in 2000. That is just a fact.

The way some ISH posters try to deny Duncan's greatness by saying he's had stacked cast is the most insulting thing I've read on ISH, because Duncan's cast actually pales to what Kobe/Shaq/Wade/KG all had when they won titles. I'm not saying Duncan didn't have help, but no way was his help any more than what everyone else had. Duncan won with less than just about everyone in the history of the league but 94 Hakeem an 98 Jordan.

[insidious301]

Kobe did. Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Brian Cook. How the hell did he carry them into the playoffs in a competitive Western Conference.

[ZaaaaaH]

Kobe's had a significantly superior cast over other stars in the league for all of his career except for two (three max) and we got people like you here complaining Kobe got a raw deal and implying that Kobe had it bad compared to Jordan (which is truly comical, given how Jordan's best teammate on his best day wasn't 90% as good as prime Shaq)

Kobe came into the league on a team with three other all stars, played with prime Shaq, played on two of the most stacked teams of the modern era (04 Lakers and current Lakers) and yet you guys believe there's a need to remind everyone how bad he had it for two years (TWO!) of his freaking career.

notice KG fans arent here getting all defensive about the duncan comment and making a deal (probably cause they AGREE that duncan woulda done more with KG/Kobe's cast as well) but Kobe fans are here making a deal.

Nevermind the fact you guys can't debunk my point that Pierce, Lebron all had similarly bad cast and went somewhere. Or that Duncan and Nash had a slightly better cast and had dramatically more success...

:confusedshrug:

I'm not even a Kobe hater (anymore), check out how I defended him in the "how many rings does Kobe have to win to surpass Hakeem" thread, and I'm not a huge Duncan fan, but I cannot accept you homers even trying to imply how Duncan had it better than Kobe in terms of supporting casts. Duncan has won more with less than Kobe ever has. Never has Duncan had a cast as strong as what Kobe has now or had in 2000. That is just a fact.

The way some ISH posters try to deny Duncan's greatness by saying he's had stacked cast is the most insulting thing I've read on ISH, because Duncan's cast actually pales to what Kobe/Shaq/Wade/KG all had when they won titles. I'm not saying Duncan didn't have help, but no way was his help any more than what everyone else had. Duncan won with less than just about everyone in the history of the league but 94 Hakeem an 98 Jordan.


Good post. Duncan is one of the top players that is very easy to build around to have team success.

Lets give some credit to Popovich making sure everyone worked around Duncan.

One thing I disagree is those 3 years Kobe had it worst then anyone. On paper yes it will look alright. Name like Butler,Odom, and Fisher other scrubs...
But if you kept up with the Lakers from 2000 then you will understand why it was so bad. It starts from Jerry and even to Kobe. Kobe was selfish after Shaq left and wanted to let everyone know he can do it, but guess what his team is too stupid to understand the triangle and also too stupid and sorry to play with Kobe. With Kobes huge ego during those years when they were losing it was bad and Im talking bad with the teammates. They never got along. They never really gel it was always Kobe trying to force shiiit. After those long 3 years Kobe and Lakers were still soild team and when Kobe changed his number thats when he became more of a team player because he realized he cant do this ***** alone. Kobe start teaching/coaching and start being more friendly and also trying to gel the Whole team together which made the team pretty strong. During middle of the season they pick up Gasol. Now Kobe got a real teammate who has high bball IQ and who knows how to Catch and FINISH (KBrown was Horrible at this). Now they are the Champs going for another.

Damn LOL that was long but yea Bottom line Jerry should of never split Shaq and Kobe. I dont give a dam if he had to trade the whole team that year, HOW THE FCK DO YOU GIVE AWAY SHAQ?

[raptorfan_dr07]

I definitely agree that a prime Duncan leads those teams to 50 wins and the playoffs. Kobe led that 06 team to 45 wins yet somehow it's impossible for Duncan, who has had a far greater impact on both ends of the court throughout his career than Kobe, can't scrape out 5 more wins? You definitely see an increase in efficiency and production from players around the board playing with Duncan.

How does he not beat the Suns in the first round that year when the Lakers were a game away from doing it? They were very weak down low that year due to Amare being injured. Hell, Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom dominated their front court for the most part that series. Marion couldn't guard Odom on the blocks and Diaw couldn't guard Kwame. Duncan would've raped that team down low. Not to mention Duncan's leadership was far greater than Kobe's leadership at that time. It most likely doesn't go to Game 7 with TD in there. Not surprising, it's all the same Kobe fans aka fake Laker fans that are :cry: :cry: :cry: and are all butt hurt. Duncan>>>Kobe, deal with it.


Fact of the matter is: Kobe had crap teammates during his prime. MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan had good to great teammates during their prime. And so he was given a raw deal in this particular instance.

It's undeniable.

Just like it's undeniable that he put himself in that position to begin with. He whined and b*tched like a spolied brat about having to take a back seat to Shaq, who was still the best player on the team. Got Shaq traded and Phil let go. He got what he wanted and realized he couldn't do what he thought he could and even pleaded for Phil and the triangle to come back. He gets no sympathy cause unlike KG, Lebron, Wade, etc, he chose that situation, he wasn't just placed there. And please, quit acting like Kobe's team was the worst team to ever set foot on a basketball court. Nobody's denying that they weren't bad. However, it's already been shown as FACT in this thread, that his teams were not so much worse than several other superstars in the league who have been able to do more with their teams. It gets annoying when Kobe slurpers constantly try and shove this BS in our faces.

[KB2009Champ]

I definitely agree that a prime Duncan leads those teams to 50 wins and the playoffs. Kobe led that 06 team to 45 wins yet somehow it's impossible for Duncan, who has had a far greater impact on both ends of the court throughout his career than Kobe, can't scrape out 5 more wins? You definitely see an increase in efficiency and production from players around the board playing with Duncan.

How does he not beat the Suns in the first round that year when the Lakers were a game away from doing it? They were very weak down low that year due to Amare being injured. Hell, Kwame Brown and Lamar Odom dominated their front court for the most part that series. Marion couldn't guard Odom on the blocks and Diaw couldn't guard Kwame. Duncan would've raped that team down low. Not to mention Duncan's leadership was far greater than Kobe's leadership at that time. It most likely doesn't go to Game 7 with TD in there. Not surprising, it's all the same Kobe fans aka fake Laker fans that are :cry: :cry: :cry: and are all butt hurt. Duncan>>>Kobe, deal with it.



Just like it's undeniable that he put himself in that position to begin with. He whined and b*tched like a spolied brat about having to take a back seat to Shaq, who was still the best player on the team. Got Shaq traded and Phil let go. He got what he wanted and realized he couldn't do what he thought he could and even pleaded for Phil and the triangle to come back. He gets no sympathy cause unlike KG, Lebron, Wade, etc, he chose that situation, he wasn't just placed there. And please, quit acting like Kobe's team was the worst team to ever set foot on a basketball court. Nobody's denying that they weren't bad. However, it's already been shown as FACT in this thread, that his teams were not so much worse than several other superstars in the league who have been able to do more with their teams. It gets annoying when Kobe slurpers constantly try and shove this BS in our faces.


Dude, get with the times. You must be the only fool left who truly beleives that Kobe, all by his lonesome, got shaq and phil out of LA. How many times does the owner need to say that he traded shaq because he didn't want to pay him the money he was asking for? Oh, and how bad was Kobe that Phil came back to coach him? You think the issues with him and Kobe were all one sided? Come on bro - take off the hate glasses. Kobe pleaded for Phil to come back? I guess the record $12M that Phil was offered wasn't a factor. I suppose Phil feeling bad about the book he wrote had nothing to do with it? SMDH. Its funny that Phil and Kobe have obviously moved on because they have a great relationship now and have won a ring together. Its also funny that Shaq and Kobe have moved on and have both won rings since. Yet, only dumba sses like you, yes you, continue to bring up s hit that has nothing to do with the the point of this thread.

Why do people get worked up when it is simply pointed out that at one point, Kobe and KG had some really shi tty teamates. Ask yourself, why are you so angry about this? For real why? I don't care if its MJ on the squad instead of Kobe. Any starting lineup that has Chucky Atkins and Kwame Brown starting, is just plain awful. No way around it. Ok, so you think TD would have won 50 games with that squad (btw you must be smoking crack to think that) in the western conference? Ok.

[Bodhi]

Slightly off topic, but given how much Jerry Buss hated Shaq, I wonder if they're going to retire his number.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Fact of the matter is: Kobe had crap teammates during his prime. MJ, Bird, Magic, Shaq, and Duncan had good to great teammates during their prime. And so he was given a raw deal in this particular instance.

It's undeniable.
His best overall play has come these last 3 seasons, after the summer '07 video in which he declared Andrew Bynum be traded for Jason Kidd. Remember they were at the top of the West prior to the Gasol/Kwame trade.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Slightly off topic, but given how much Jerry Buss hated Shaq, I wonder if they're going to retire his number.

Brian Cook attempted to switch from #7 to #34 after the Shaq trade and was denied by Lakers management.

[TheAnchorman]

Lol unrelated but did someone just seriously delete the Duncan thread by KG5MVP? He's not exactly the best poster in this forum but at the very least give it some time, Jesus he had a good point too. I don't believe Duncan can take that horrendous Lakers team to 50 wins and the playoffs, even in 2003 he had quite better teammates than Kobe did in 2k5-2k7.

[KG5MVP]

Lol unrelated but did someone just seriously delete the Duncan thread by KG5MVP? He's not exactly the best poster in this forum but at the very least give it some time, Jesus he had a good point too. I don't believe Duncan can take that horrendous Lakers team to 50 wins and the playoffs, even in 2003 he had quite better teammates than Kobe did in 2k5-2k7.

yea proofs my points, it is blasphemous to say anything bad that is related anyway to duncan

yea **** whoever deleted my post, i spend so much time on it, u just ****ing delete it. god damn duncan **********

[SAKOTXA]

yea proofs my points, it is blasphemous to say anything bad that is related anyway to duncan

yea **** whoever deleted my post, i spend so much time on it, u just ****ing delete it. god damn duncan **********

Yea, your hard work payed off. That was your first two sentence post without a spelling error...

[KG5MVP]

bump

[Ikill]

are these significantly worse than these casts?

antonio daniels
steve smith (32 years old)
malik rose
david robinson (36 years old)

or

eric snow
larry hughes
drew gooden
Z

?


duncan won 58 with the first cast in 2002 and lebron won 50 and went to the finals with the second cast in 2007.

i'm not saying kobe and kg didn't have a bad cast but please stop using it to hype up KG and Kobe. Prime Duncan takes KG and Kobe casts during those years to 50 wins and second round of the playoffs.
The thing with Lebron is that he makes his teammates look a lot worse than they actually are Larry Hughes was an all star before he got to Clevland Gooden is a solid player. Eric Snow is ok and at that time z was in his prime putting up 16 and 8 the previous year. Donyell Marshall was a good player off the bench too. Anderson verejao was a good hustle player, and Mike Brown was a good defensive coach. Lebron is just a hard player to play with.And they were better than all the teams they beat Wizards and Pistons were injured and the cavs were just better than the nets. The only impressive thing was the one game where he scored 25 straight points against the Pistons.

[VishaltotheG]

KG had worse teammates throughout those years. At least Kobe had a second option in Odom.

[tpols]

KG had worse teammates throughout those years. At least Kobe had a second option in Odom.
:facepalm odom is one of the most inconsistent players in the league. His defense is downright awful against PFs and he is not at all a reliable offensive option.

The funny thing is kobe led that shitty team to a 2-0 lead on the suns. They could've easily put them away but choked.

[VishaltotheG]

:facepalm odom is one of the most inconsistent players in the league. His defense is downright awful against PFs and he is not at all a reliable offensive option.

The funny thing is kobe led that shitty team to a 2-0 lead on the suns. They could've easily put them away but choked.

Odom is still better than anyone on those T-Wolves rosters save Garnett.

[tpols]

Odom is still better than anyone on those T-Wolves rosters save Garnett.
That speaks more to the twolves lack of a second option. chris mihm, kwame brown, brian cook, and old ass chucky atkins could compete to be worse players than anyone on those twolves teams.

[SinJackal]

are these significantly worse than these casts?

antonio daniels
steve smith (32 years old)
malik rose
david robinson (36 years old)

or

eric snow
larry hughes
drew gooden
Z

?

duncan won 58 with the first cast in 2002 and lebron won 50 and went to the finals with the second cast in 2007.

i'm not saying kobe and kg didn't have a bad cast but please stop using it to hype up KG and Kobe. Prime Duncan takes KG and Kobe casts during those years to 50 wins and second round of the playoffs.

I agree, though mainly because with the extra regular season wins, he wouldn't have had to play the same team as Kobe/KG did. When you suck in the reg season, it's hard to make an excuse for not advancing due to having to play the 1-2 seed. Then again. Duncan beat the 2 seed as a 7 seed last year anyway.



Lol, so Duncan's 25 points and defense would offset the 7 to 10 extra points Bryant was scoring? Where would the rest of the offense come from?

First of all. . .why are you only talking about the 6-10 Kobe points, and not the 8 extra boards Duncan would be pulling down? 8 boards = at least 7 points based on league shooting averages, as well as preventing the other team from getting those boards which means they score 7 less points as well. Duncan's superior defense would diminish the opposing team's score (over Kobe's defense), but at least a few points.

So while Kobe's scoring is superior to Duncan's by half a dozen points or so, he's also consuming more FGAs, while Duncan is taking away possessions and as a result points from the other team, while giving his own team more possessions (and points as a byproduct).

Stop overrating scoring and underrating everything else. There's a reason why teams do way better with good big men than good guards, despite their scoring not being mid-high 20s. That reason being greater defensive presence and better possession control.

To sum up: while Kobe changes the game by adding additional points, Duncan changes it by taking away points from the other team and giving his team extra possessions. Net change in points would be noticeably in favor of prime Duncan, which equates into more wins. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Duncan's numbers statstically increase when he gets to the playoffs, while Kobe's have generally stayed about the same.



ISH overrates Tim duncan too much

ISH overrates guards in general too much, while underrating big men too much. A high quality big is almost always more valuble than a high quality guard, assuming the right pieces are put around each player.

[amfirst]

Odom has never or ever be a second option, he's just a role player and a good rebounder that's it. lol

[ginobli2311]

Odom has never or ever be a second option, he's just a role player and a good rebounder that's it. lol

somewhat agree. but with minutes and enough touches.....odom did the following in the playoffs as a 2nd option:

06:

19 points 11 boards 5 assists....50% from the field

07:

19 points 13 boards 2 assists.....48% from the field


he's not good enough to be the 2nd option on a title team. that is the difference. odom would be the 2nd option (in his prime) on most teams in the nba. its just even further proof how stacked the Lakers have been over the last 3 years.

[ginobli2311]

I agree, though mainly because with the extra regular season wins, he wouldn't have had to play the same team as Kobe/KG did. When you suck in the reg season, it's hard to make an excuse for not advancing due to having to play the 1-2 seed. Then again. Duncan beat the 2 seed as a 7 seed last year anyway.




First of all. . .why are you only talking about the 6-10 Kobe points, and not the 8 extra boards Duncan would be pulling down? 8 boards = at least 7 points based on league shooting averages, as well as preventing the other team from getting those boards which means they score 7 less points as well. Duncan's superior defense would diminish the opposing team's score (over Kobe's defense), but at least a few points.

So while Kobe's scoring is superior to Duncan's by half a dozen points or so, he's also consuming more FGAs, while Duncan is taking away possessions and as a result points from the other team, while giving his own team more possessions (and points as a byproduct).

Stop overrating scoring and underrating everything else. There's a reason why teams do way better with good big men than good guards, despite their scoring not being mid-high 20s. That reason being greater defensive presence and better possession control.

To sum up: while Kobe changes the game by adding additional points, Duncan changes it by taking away points from the other team and giving his team extra possessions. Net change in points would be noticeably in favor of prime Duncan, which equates into more wins. This isn't even mentioning the fact that Duncan's numbers statstically increase when he gets to the playoffs, while Kobe's have generally stayed about the same.




ISH overrates guards in general too much, while underrating big men too much. A high quality big is almost always more valuble than a high quality guard, assuming the right pieces are put around each player.


its very simple. prime duncan > prime kobe. end of story. duncan as the anchor of a team is much much much > kobe as well. duncan has the ability to win more with less.....we have seen this throughout his career.

duncan could have made the 2nd round in 06 for sure with kobe's team.

[tpols]

somewhat agree. but with minutes and enough touches.....odom did the following in the playoffs as a 2nd option:

06:

19 points 11 boards 5 assists....50% from the field

07:

19 points 13 boards 2 assists.....48% from the field


he's not good enough to be the 2nd option on a title team. that is the difference. odom would be the 2nd option (in his prime) on most teams in the nba. its just even further proof how stacked the Lakers have been over the last 3 years.
Odom wouldn't even be a fourth option for the celtics. He wouldn't even start for the magic. He wouldn't even start for the heat. He wouldn't even start for most contenders. Whats your point?

[ginobli2311]

Odom wouldn't even be a fourth option for the celtics. He wouldn't even start for the magic. He wouldn't even start for the heat. He wouldn't even start for most contenders. Whats your point?

in his prime....odom was good enough to start for every team. what you say is just not true at all. you list the 4 best teams in the league with players at that position. he'd start for every other team right now....and he's no longer in the heart of his prime.

do you think its just random that coach k wanted him so badly on team USA? the dude is a very very good player that has become grossly under rated.

if odom got 38 minutes and actually had plays and touches....he would average around 17 points 11 boards 5 assists per game.

sorry.....you are seriously under rating odom. he is good enough to play a key role on title teams. he has already proven this.

lol at not starting for the magic either. give me odom over lewis all day every day.

[tpols]

in his prime....odom was good enough to start for every team. what you say is just not true at all. you list the 4 best teams in the league with players at that position. he'd start for every other team right now....and he's no longer in the heart of his prime.

do you think its just random that coach k wanted him so badly on team USA? the dude is a very very good player that has become grossly under rated.

if odom got 38 minutes and actually had plays and touches....he would average around 17 points 11 boards 5 assists per game.

sorry.....you are seriously under rating odom. he is good enough to play a key role on title teams. he has already proven this.

lol at not starting for the magic either. give me odom over lewis all day every day.
Odom is a 6'11 guy who thinks he's a point guard.

His post defense and rebounding are extremely average for his position.(did you watch him get bullied by big baby in the finals?)

Odom is an average player in this league. He has never lived up to the hype.

The FACT remains that he wouldn't start for any of the top teams in the league EVEN IN HIS PRIME:

heat
magic
celtics
mavs
spurs
lakers

You're overrating odom to fit your agenda. You're not fooling anyone. (and coach k also took kevin love and an unproven mcghee:lol ; whats your point?)

[Rose]

In 05 Kobe, BARELY,and in 06 and 07 KG had the worse supporting group

[L.Kizzle]

T-Mac 2000-2005.

[ginobli2311]

Odom is a 6'11 guy who thinks he's a point guard.

His post defense and rebounding are extremely average for his position.(did you watch him get bullied by big baby in the finals?)

Odom is an average player in this league. He has never lived up to the hype.

The FACT remains that he wouldn't start for any of the top teams in the league EVEN IN HIS PRIME:

heat
magic
celtics
mavs
spurs
lakers

You're overrating odom to fit your agenda. You're not fooling anyone. (and coach k also took kevin love and an unproven mcghee:lol ; whats your point?)


this has nothing to do with kobe dude....nothing at all. odom just got done playing 31 minutes this season for the champs. LOL

the dude has averaged 14 points 9 boards 3 assists for his career in the playoffs on 49% shooting. he has done this without getting a lot of touches or plays called for him. he takes less than 11 shots a game and has played less than 35 minutes.

i love it. so now odom is just an average player. a big LOL to you sir. its clearly you that has the agenda. everything has to be about kobe for you. i never mentioned him and this has nothing to do with him at all. you put those words in my mouth. lamar odom is currently a starter on every team in the league other than the heat, lakers, celtics. its debatable for the magic. he'd start for the mavs and spurs for sure. and forget starting....he' easily be one of the 4 best players on any team in the league right now other than the lakers or celtics.

[VishaltotheG]

Odom is a 6'11 guy who thinks he's a point guard.

His post defense and rebounding are extremely average for his position.(did you watch him get bullied by big baby in the finals?)

Odom is an average player in this league. He has never lived up to the hype.

The FACT remains that he wouldn't start for any of the top teams in the league EVEN IN HIS PRIME:

heat
magic
celtics
mavs
spurs
lakers

You're overrating odom to fit your agenda. You're not fooling anyone. (and coach k also took kevin love and an unproven mcghee:lol ; whats your point?)

He can start as a small forward for the Magic and as power forward for the Thunder

[tpols]

He can start as a small forward for the Magic and as power forward for the Thunder
I didn't say thunder cuz I dont consider them a true contender yet but orlando wouldn't start odom. They would play him as 6th man off the bench for rashard. He would get mauled on the perimeter by quality SFs.

[VishaltotheG]

I didn't say thunder cuz I dont consider them a true contender yet but orlando wouldn't start odom. They would play him as 6th man off the bench for rashard. He would get mauled on the perimeter by quality SFs.

I was thinking Odom would be like the Magic's Turkoglu, except tougher.

[bstickq1]

KG had worse teammates throughout those years. At least Kobe had a second option in Odom.

Uh, Ricky Davis was far more a legitimate second option than Odom or runner up Butler.

17 pts 3.9 reb 4.8 ast 39.7% 3s, 46.5% FG 84% FT in 81 games in 06-07.

Played half the year before on poor percentages, but still put up 19 pts and nearly 5 asts and 5 rebs.

[AK47DR91]

Garnett for sure.

It was that stupid Joe Smith crap that destroyed any chance KG and the Wolves had of advancing in the West. They lost draft picks for 2 or 3 years after that debacle.

[Finn T-Mac]

What about 2002-03 Orlando Magic. There's an epic roster, and still made the playoffs with McGrady 32 ppg

C Andrew DeClercq
F Shawn Kemp (yes the really fat version)
F Pat Garrity
G Tracy McGrady
G Jacque Vaughn

Bech:
Darrell Armstrong
Pat Burke
Gordan Giricek (rookie 20 games)
Drew Gooden (rookie 20 games)
Horace Grant (15th season)
Grant Hill (25 games with bad ankle)
Ryan Humphrey
Steven Hunter
Olumide Oyedeji
Jeryl Sasser
Chris Whitney

Or 2000-2001 roster...

[Jacks3]

lol who cares? You're comparing shit to shit.

[jbryan1984]

How about a cast of Shaq, Jamison, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker, Delonte West and Andy Varejao?


ISH Cleveland haters January 2010: "Cavs are stocked, they take Lakers in 6".


ISH Cleveland haters July 2010: "They didn't get LeBron enough help".


:lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

The 2004-2005 Lakers had decent talent, but injuries and the coaching change made them worse.

Kobe missed 16 games and didn't seem 100% for most of the year. He shot a career low 43.3% and averaged a career high 4.1 turnovers, but Odom missed 18 games and they lacked depth on the bench. Butler was actually already a 15.5 ppg, 6 rpg player, Odom was a 15/10/4 player and Atkins was a 14/4 palyer which is better than Fisher's production and he was more efficient, Mihm was decent(10/7, 51 FG%, fairly skilled) but again, lack of a bench, injuries and Rudy T having to step down hurt the team. The team was 24-19 with Rudy T and 10-29 with Frank Hamblen.

The 2006 Lakers were actually less talented, but Kobe had a season for the ages, Odom played well and led the team in rebounds and assists, Mihm was decent for 60 or so games and they atleast got Fisher-esque production out of Smush Parker(actually, probably a bit better production) , but they were actually easily less talented than the 2005 Lakers, but having Kobe and Odom healthy for the season and Phil for a season made the difference.

The 2007 Lakers were hit hard by injuries and started off 26-13, thanks in large part to Kobe making his teammates better and Odom was having a breakout year before he went down with injuries(18/10/5, iirc)

The 2005 Wolves on paper were the same team that contended for a title the year before, but Cassell only played 59 games and didn't have nearly the season he did before and Sprewell also declined.

The 2006 Wolves didn't have a consistent lineup throughout the season so I'd say they were worse.

The 2007 Wolves were fairly similar to the 2007 Lakers.

Overall, for those 3 years, the talent was similar, except LA was much better coached which does make a difference, but the Lakers won more games.

[alanLA92]

man horrible teams to think this was just a few yrs ago

[R-Pattz]

Didn't KG lead the wolves in every statistic for a year or two? I don't there's anyone on those teams at the time who was anywhere close to being an above-average starter, even if Ricky's stats were alright.

I think Lamar Odom is the best of the bunch, but besides him, the Lakers were just awful...still hard to believe they pushed the Suns to 7 games with all those scrubs. I'll still give the slight nod to the timberwolves minus KG though in terms of awfulness, but Kobe carried the Lakers further, so I guess it just about evens out.

That Orlando team minus-Tracy looks like a d-league team though, and not one of the better ones either.

[bstickq1]

Didn't KG lead the wolves in every statistic for a year or two? I don't there's anyone on those teams at the time who was anywhere close to being an above-average starter, even if Ricky's stats were alright.

I think Lamar Odom is the best of the bunch, but besides him, the Lakers were just awful...still hard to believe they pushed the Suns to 7 games with all those scrubs. I'll still give the slight nod to the timberwolves minus KG though in terms of awfulness, but Kobe carried the Lakers further, so I guess it just about evens out.

That Orlando team minus-Tracy looks like a d-league team though, and not one of the better ones either.

You are right 17, nearly 4 and 5 on good percentages is good status, not just above average.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What about 2002-03 Orlando Magic. There's an epic roster, and still made the playoffs with McGrady 32 ppg

C Andrew DeClercq
F Shawn Kemp (yes the really fat version)
F Pat Garrity
G Tracy McGrady
G Jacque Vaughn

Bech:
Darrell Armstrong
Pat Burke
Gordan Giricek (rookie 20 games)
Drew Gooden (rookie 20 games)
Horace Grant (15th season)
Grant Hill (25 games with bad ankle)
Ryan Humphrey
Steven Hunter
Olumide Oyedeji
Jeryl Sasser
Chris Whitney

Excluding players who played less than half a season, T-Mac led the team in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks.

That was one horrible team. The only players who played their for a full season that year who played significant minutes were a 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, A 300+ pound Shawn Kemp who basically just shot(and didn't make many) jumpers at that point, Pat Garrity and Andrew DeClercq.

But man was T-Mac fun to watch that year. Effortless looking drives to the rim, crossovers, finger rolls, reverse lay ups, catch and shoot jumpers, pull up jumpers from ridiculous distances, great passes ect. People forget that he was pretty efficient for that volume as well. He shot 46% from the field, made 2.3 threes per game and shot 39% which is a pretty ridiculous percentage for that volume and he attempted about 10 free throws per game.

Prime T-Mac has been forgotten and it's a shame. It's crazy that he was only 23 that year(man how time flies) and he almost led a cast with Drew Gooden, 34 yr old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Gordan Giricek and Pat Garrity over a Pistons team that won a title the next season after the additions of Larry Brown and Sheed.

For my money, T-Mac was the best perimeter player in the game that year and he a legit argument several other seasons in Orlando.

[tpols]

Excluding players who played less than half a season, T-Mac led the team in scoring, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks.

That was one horrible team. The only players who played their for a full season that year who played significant minutes were a 34 year old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, A 300+ pound Shawn Kemp who basically just shot(and didn't make many) jumpers at that point, Pat Garrity and Andrew DeClercq.

But man was T-Mac fun to watch that year. Effortless looking drives to the rim, crossovers, ginger rolls, reverse lay ups, catch and shoot jumpers, pull up jumpers from ridiculous distances, great passes ect. People forget that he was pretty efficient for that volume as well. He shot 46% from the field, made 2.3 threes per game and shot 39% which is a pretty ridiculous percentage for that volume and he attempted about 10 free throws per game.

Prime T-Mac has been forgotten and it's a shame. It's crazy that he was only 23 that year(man how time flies) and he almost led a cast with Drew Gooden, 34 yr old Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughn, Gordan Giricek and Pat Garrity over a Pistons team that won a title the next season after the additions of Larry Brown and Sheed.

For my money, T-Mac was the best perimeter player in the game that year and he a legit argument several other seasons in Orlando.
:lol

nice post.

[PowerGlove]

Kobe's wasn't even that bad. He had Luke Walton, Odom, Cook(nice shooter),etc.

AI/T-mac/KG/Vince Carter/Lebron/Wade have had worst supporting casts this decade.

[branslowski]

Kobe's wasn't even that bad. He had Luke Walton, Odom, Cook(nice shooter),etc.

AI/T-mac/KG/Vince Carter/Lebron/Wade have had worst supporting casts this decade.

:facepalm

[PowerGlove]

:facepalm
Let me know what was wrong with my post.

[tpols]

Let me know what was wrong with my post.
First off, AI, lebron, wade, and kidd have NOT had worse teammates than chucky atkins, cook, walton, and kwame. GTFO with that.

[branslowski]

Let me know what was wrong with my post.

I meant to just put LeBron's name in bold with Facepalm...Because he hasn't ever had a cast worst than anyone in your post, especially Kobe.

:lol @ You trying to pass off Luke and Cook as remotley close to good.

Smush Parkers bum ass right out of the league once Lakers dropped his ass...And Kwame...

LeBron has played with a roster that had Boozer...Then a Team with Big Z...Big Z was easily better than every Laker besides Odom...Larry Huges and Boobie is even better than a Smush Parker....C'mon dude.

[PowerGlove]

First off, AI, lebron, wade, and kidd have NOT had worse teammates than chucky atkins, cook, walton, and kwame. GTFO with that.
Kidd? Who said Kidd?:oldlol:

Lebron? Really?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2004.html

Wade?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2008.html

AI?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2000.html

[PowerGlove]

I meant to just put LeBron's name in bold with Facepalm...Because he hasn't ever had a cast worst than anyone in your post, especially Kobe.

:lol @ You trying to pass off Luke and Cook as remotley close to good.

Smush Parkers bum ass right out of the league once Lakers dropped his ass...And Kwame...

LeBron has played with a roster that had Boozer...Then a Team with Big Z...Big Z was easily better than every Laker besides Odom...Larry Huges and Boobie is even better than a Smush Parker....C'mon dude.

That is funny how he was on the heat when they went 18-64.

[ShaqAttack3234]

First off, AI, lebron, wade, and kidd have NOT had worse teammates than chucky atkins, cook, walton, and kwame. GTFO with that.

I'm not saying Kobe's casts were good, but why does everyone forget Odom and just list guys like Cook, Kwame and Smush?

And I agree that AI, Lebron and Kidd didn't have worse casts, but Wade's cast in 2009 was atleast as bad if not worse. He didn't have a teammate as good as Odom and he had literally no size on the team. .

But while Kobe fans make a good point about Smush only being decent with LA and dropping off the face of the earth after, I don't see what's so bad about Chucky Atkins? He's decent. Hell, Kobe has never really played with a good point guard anyway, the closest was Gary Payton, but he was washed up by that point and Kobe was a teenager coming off the bench when Nick Van Exel was on the team.

[tpols]

Kidd? Who said Kidd?:oldlol:

Lebron? Really?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2004.html

Wade?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2008.html

AI?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2000.html
Not gonna argue this all night but lebron had a prime Z and boozer, and a solid scorer in ricky davis (these guys are all better than odom, mihm, and cook or walton). Same thing with miami with shaq, zo, marion, haslem and davis (it was really injury that killed this team). AI's team is the team he took to the finals the next year with the same lineup +mutumbo. These teams were no worse than kobe's team.

EDIT: I confused kidd with vince whose had very solid teams over the years with the nets (in his prime). Kidd VC, RJ, Krystic(who was shaping up to be a very good center until he destroyed his knee) were very solid teammates.

[branslowski]

I'm not saying Kobe's casts were good, but why does everyone forget Odom and just list guys like Cook, Kwame and Smush?

And I agree that AI, Lebron and Kidd didn't have worse casts, but Wade's cast in 2009 was atleast as bad if not worse. He didn't have a teammate as good as Odom and he had literally no size on the team. .

But while Kobe fans make a good point about Smush only being decent with LA and dropping off the face of the earth after, I don't see what's so bad about Chucky Atkins? He's decent. Hell, Kobe has never really played with a good point guard anyway, the closest was Gary Payton, but he was washed up by that point and Kobe was a teenager coming off the bench when Nick Van Exel was on the team.

True.

Wade's 09' cast was arguably as worst as Kobe's...But Michael Beasley has talent, O'neal not at his prime form, but was better than any true big Kobe had...I mean Chris Mihm though?..:confusedshrug: ..And Haslem is even a solid spot up shooter..

Mario Chalmers and Smush is a wash..

[R-Pattz]

You are right 17, nearly 4 and 5 on good percentages is good status, not just above average.

The game is more than just raw numbers; Ricky Davis wasn't very good. Solid skillset as a scorer, but his b-ball IQ was just awful. He couldn't initiate offense for anyone but himself, and when he did create his own shot it'd usually be an ill-advised, fade-away chuck.

He's in there with that group of players who you'll settle with as a starter because he'll produce decent numbers, but you're really not going anywhere if he's a major part of your offense. I'd much rather have Odom.

[PowerGlove]

Not gonna argue this all night but lebron had a prime Z and boozer, and a solid scorer in ricky davis (these guys are all better than odom, mihm, and cook or walton). Same thing with miami with shaq, zo, marion, haslem and davis (it was really injury that killed this team). AI's team is the team he took to the finals the next year with the same lineup +mutumbo. These teams were no worse than kobe's team.

Way to be objective, that wasn't even Lebron's worst team.

Try his 2006 team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2006.html) and please dont call Ricky Davis a solid scorer ever again.:facepalm

Miami? I like how injuries come into play with this team but when we're talking about T-mac losing to hill to injury it is fair play.:rolleyes:

Also, stop severely underrating Walton and Odom please. That shit is irritating. Walton is a smart player who really understands the triangle and is good passer. He's nowhere near garbage. Odom(while inconsistent at times) is a very versatile player who's extremely talented.
Kobe also had Maurice Evans and Radmanovic who aren't garbage either. I'm guessing we're also calling Ronny Turiaf garbage in this thread too.

[branslowski]

That is funny how he was on the heat when they went 18-64.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Dude didn't even play 10 games with the Heat that year...And Im pretty sure he didn't even start a game...He had no effect on the bumness on that team...Nice try kid...:oldlol:

[PowerGlove]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Dude didn't even play 10 games with the Heat that year...And Im pretty sure he didn't even start a game...He had no effect on the bumness on that team...Nice try kid...:oldlol:
:facepalm

Never said he had an effect, you were the one that said he disappeared from the league after leaving the lakers.

Is it something about me that makes people assume what I'm "trying to say" instead of just taking my posts for what they really are?

[branslowski]

:facepalm

Never said he had an effect, you were the one that said he disappeared from the league after leaving the lakers.

Is it something about me that makes people assume what I'm "trying to say" instead of just taking my posts for what they really are?

Cool....But your post still reeks irony..

Because you took my..."Parker disappeared from the league" as a take it to the board remark...Ofcource he played with Heat for those 10 games or so...But I was speaking more on the terms of not having a starters role...Being asked to be a teams leading point guard...Having a player who can make him even remotely good, or being seen as better than he was thnx to Kobe...

My comment about him was more of a "it's about 1000 degrees outside" (wen its really 100)...You= the guy that say's...(Actually, its 101, not even close to 1000)..Which leads me to punish you...

But watever...Kobe had the worst cast.

[New York Knicks]

:facepalm

Never said he had an effect, you were the one that said he disappeared from the league after leaving the lakers.

Is it something about me that makes people assume what I'm "trying to say" instead of just taking my posts for what they really are?
branslowski only posts to prop up Kobe directly or indirectly (by diminishing other players). He thinks Kobe really cares.

[bstickq1]

The game is more than just raw numbers; Ricky Davis wasn't very good. Solid skillset as a scorer, but his b-ball IQ was just awful. He couldn't initiate offense for anyone but himself, and when he did create his own shot it'd usually be an ill-advised, fade-away chuck.

He's in there with that group of players who you'll settle with as a starter because he'll produce decent numbers, but you're really not going anywhere if he's a major part of your offense. I'd much rather have Odom.

Not true at all. Very underrated at finding seams, drawing attention and kicking it to an open player. I base this on watching him play; his good assist numbers back me up. People just assume he was bad at everything because his name is Ricky Davis.




and please dont call Ricky Davis a solid scorer ever again.:facepalm


Wrong.

[magnax1]

KG 07, by a lot. Kobe 05 and 06

[Samurai Swoosh]

KG 07, by a lot. Kobe 05 and 06
Kobe's "Ridin Solo" act from 2006 and 2007 is one of my most FAVORITE lone gun slinger acts of all-time.

[magnax1]

Kobe's "Ridin Solo" act from 2006 and 2007 is one of my most FAVORITE lone gun slinger acts of all-time.
Yeah. His play in 06 was outstanding, and while I had trouble appreciating him at the time, looking back he was by far the best player in the league after 06.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yeah. His play in 06 was outstanding, and while I had trouble appreciating him at the time, looking back he was by far the best player in the league after 06.
Well yeah, my dude ... IMO easily the MVP of 2006 and 2007. 2008 is debatable to me. I appreciated what CP3 did most that year ... but Kobe was definitely the best player in the game in 2006 and 2007.

[Disaprine]

KG without a doubt, at least Kobe had Odom. Kobe also had Caron Butler for one season.

New York Knicks = Bruce Blitz? :confusedshrug:

[Samurai Swoosh]

KG without a doubt, at least Kobe had Odom.
Odom? His 2nd best player? Mr. Consistently INCONSISTENT?

:oldlol:

[magnax1]

Well yeah, my dude ... IMO easily the MVP of 2006 and 2007. 2008 is debatable to me. I appreciated what CP3 did most that year ... but Kobe was definitely the best player in the game in 2006 and 2007.
I'd give MVP to him 06 and 08. He was by far better then CP3 to me. CP3 had just as good of a team as Kobe that year, and Kobe's team was only equal after the Pau trade.

[Disaprine]

Odom? His 2nd best player? Mr. Consistently INCONSISTENT?

:oldlol:
odom was at least a above average player during those years. he was incosistent as hell though. :lol

[Samurai Swoosh]

I'd give MVP to him 06 and 08. He was by far better then CP3 to me. CP3 had just as good of a team as Kobe that year, and Kobe's team was only equal after the Pau trade.
Naw, CP3 had a less talented roster. They were everything because of Paul's play that season. He made David West's career.

:oldlol:

Dirk was not the MVP of 2007. They gave it to him by default. Best player on the best record team? Weak. It was Kobe who was the best individual player in the league.

[Samurai Swoosh]

odom was at least a above average player during those years. he was incosistent as hell though. :lol
Above average doesn't mean reliable quality. He's a career role player.

[magnax1]

Naw, CP3 had a less talented roster. They were everything because of Paul's play that season. He made David West's career.

:oldlol:

Dirk was not the MVP of 2007. They gave it to him by default. Best player on the best record team? Weak. It was Kobe who was the best individual player in the league.
No Dirk was not MVP in any way, but Duncan, Lebron and Nash were all on 50+ win teams, and Kobe wasn't quite as good in 07 because of the recovery from surgery.

[Samurai Swoosh]

and Kobe wasn't quite as good in 07 because of the recovery from surgery.
He wasn't what he was in 2006 ... but he was close. Especially considering he was still working himself back into shape the first 2 months of the season.

Kobe Bryant (2007)

32 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg

Record setting 4 50+ point game stretch ...

65 pts
50 pts
60 pts
50 pts

Sick

:facepalm

[R-Pattz]

Not true at all. Very underrated at finding seams, drawing attention and kicking it to an open player. I base this on watching him play; his good assist numbers back me up. People just assume he was bad at everything because his name is Ricky Davis.



It's easy to say he's underrated because he's Ricky Davis, but it isn't close to being the truth. I'll admit that Ricky had the skillset to be effective, but he was just a flat out average player. Unwilling defensively, completely clueless offensively...there's a reason no winning team has ever played Ricky Davis more than 600 minutes...there's a reason why teams gradually learn to exclude him from their offense...there's a reason why multiple successful teams have practically fell apart upon his arrival. He's only effective with the ball in his hands, and he isn't a consistent enough scorer or passer for quality teams to actually put the ball in his hands.

[bstickq1]

It's easy to say he's underrated because he's Ricky Davis, but it isn't close to being the truth. I'll admit that Ricky had the skillset to be effective, but he was just a flat out average player. Unwilling defensively, completely clueless offensively...there's a reason no winning team has ever played Ricky Davis more than 600 minutes...there's a reason why teams gradually learn to exclude him from their offense...there's a reason why multiple successful teams have practically fell apart upon his arrival. He's only effective with the ball in his hands, and he isn't a consistent enough scorer or passer for quality teams to actually put the ball in his hands.

Boston was 45-37 with Ricky Davis playing almost 3000 minutes, and all 82 games. He was runner up for 6th man that year if I have my seasons right. 16pts a game on good percentages.

There are no teams that fell apart due to his arrival; Miami lost Shaq, Minnesota was already in severe decline.

And when was he phased out of the offense? (He wasn't, unsubstantiated claim)

[ShaqAttack3234]

Dirk was not the MVP of 2007. They gave it to him by default. Best player on the best record team? Weak. It was Kobe who was the best individual player in the league.

I was amazed at how Kobe led the Lakers to a 26-13 record early before injuries to the supporting cast and then went off on that crazy scoring binge to end a losing streak when he was given the greenlight to shoot, but for season MVP? Dirk had a good case, he had a phenomenal regular season, he's far from one of the worst MVP choices.

I agree that Kobe was the best player in the league that year(and in '06 and '08 as well), but it's hard to give MVP to a player on a 42-40 team, no matter how bad his cast is.


No Dirk was not MVP in any way, but Duncan, Lebron and Nash were all on 50+ win teams, and Kobe wasn't quite as good in 07 because of the recovery from surgery.

Lebron? Dirk had a better season in '07. That was Lebron's worst year other than his rookie season. His jump shot was painful to watch that year and he was struggling at the line.

I don't see the problem with Dirk's '07 MVP, it's a regular season award, remember?

[Bring-Your-Js]

He wasn't what he was in 2006 ... but he was close. Especially considering he was still working himself back into shape the first 2 months of the season.

Kobe Bryant (2007)

32 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg

Record setting 4 50+ point game stretch ...

65 pts
50 pts
60 pts
50 pts

Sick

:facepalm

Yeah, and it's important to note the Lakers had lost six straight up to that point. Kobe goes off for 65, 50, 60, 50, 43 and they Win five straight. ****in Ball Hog!

[AirJordan23]

Well yeah, my dude ... IMO easily the MVP of 2006 and 2007. 2008 is debatable to me. I appreciated what CP3 did most that year ... but Kobe was definitely the best player in the game in 2006 and 2007.
LOL @ easily the MVP of 2006. Phuck outta here. Steve Nash was ballin that year. And you don't get the MVP when you win 45 games. Take a look at the last 25 MVPs and tell me if anyone got it after winning < 50 games.

[R-Pattz]

Boston was 45-37 with Ricky Davis playing almost 3000 minutes, and all 82 games. He was runner up for 6th man that year if I have my seasons right. 16pts a game on good percentages.

There are no teams that fell apart due to his arrival; Miami lost Shaq, Minnesota was already in severe decline.

And when was he phased out of the offense? (He wasn't, unsubstantiated claim)

My apologies...one season then. And that season still demonstrates how useless he was on a team that was actually aiming for success..check out his play-off numbers...noboby wants Ricky being the man when push comes to shove. He's been on enough teams that have gone gotten worse with him that it isn't just a coincidence. And you just listed two teams that got worse upon his arrival; whether it was solely Ricky's fault or not, teams don't get better with Ricky Davis being anything more than an occasional roleplayer. Do you remember the time KG was in tears because Minny was losing for the first time in years? Then Ricky comes in, and they get even worse. As much I hate the term...he's the prototypical team cancer.

[chopchop20]

are these significantly worse than these casts?

antonio daniels
steve smith (32 years old)
malik rose
david robinson (36 years old)

or

eric snow
larry hughes
drew gooden
Z

?

duncan won 58 with the first cast in 2002 and lebron won 50 and went to the finals with the second cast in 2007.

i'm not saying kobe and kg didn't have a bad cast but please stop using it to hype up KG and Kobe. Prime Duncan takes KG and Kobe casts during those years to 50 wins and second round of the playoffs.

Duncan's cast wasn't that bad... KG and Kobe definitely could have won some playoff series with those guys

[bstickq1]

My apologies...one season then. And that season still demonstrates how useless he was on a team that was actually aiming for success..check out his play-off numbers...noboby wants Ricky being the man when push comes to shove. He's been on enough teams that have gone gotten worse with him that it isn't just a coincidence. And you just listed two teams that got worse upon his arrival; whether it was solely Ricky's fault or not, teams don't get better with Ricky Davis being anything more than an occasional roleplayer. Do you remember the time KG was in tears because Minny was losing for the first time in years? Then Ricky comes in, and they get even worse. As much I hate the term...he's the prototypical team cancer.

He wasn't good enough to be the man. That's pretty irrelevant though.

And yes, I'm sure Miami getting Ricky Davis was the reason they sucked that year, not Wade battling injuries and missing over 30 games, not losing Shaq, nope, Ricky Davis.

And you are ignoring that Minnesota lost Wally Szczerbiak (for Ricky Davis), who was averaging over 20 points per game on amazing percentages for a shooter.

Since we are talking about his effectiveness as a second option compared to Odom, I guess we should blame Odom for the horrible LAL 04-05 season? Your logic, not mine.

Edit: And one playoff series is too small a sample size for that to be a valid point, particularly when we are talking about a role player.

[R-Pattz]

I'm still not sure why you're trying to play off Ricky Davis as ever being a credible second option. He's most effective with the ball...problem is, he's not good enough to trust with the ball in his hands. You're right, one play-off series isn't enough to make conclusive judgments; how about a decade of playing on nothing but mediocre to awful teams? Both on and off the court, his stints with every team he's played on have been unsuccessful. If he's not hurting the team's chemistry on the court with his need to make the highlights, chances are he'll hurt the team off the court..as seen by his suspensions from just about every team he's played for.

If you're not trying to proclaim him as a quality second option..and just trying to show some love for a player everybody hates, then good luck with that. I think he deserves his reputation though; I would never feel comfortable with him as a secondary scorer on my team unless they were destined for the lottery. Nice skillset..awful mindset.

[bstickq1]

I'm still not sure why you're trying to play off Ricky Davis as ever being a credible second option. He's most effective with the ball...problem is, he's not good enough to trust with the ball in his hands. You're right, one play-off series isn't enough to make conclusive judgments; how about a decade of playing on nothing but mediocre to awful teams? Both on and off the court, his stints with every team he's played on have been unsuccessful. If he's not hurting the team's chemistry on the court with his need to make the highlights, chances are he'll hurt the team off the court..as seen by his suspensions from just about every team he's played for.

If you're not trying to proclaim him as a quality second option..and just trying to show some love for a player everybody hates, then good luck with that. I think he deserves his reputation though; I would never feel comfortable with him as a secondary scorer on my team unless they were destined for the lottery. Nice skillset..awful mindset.

The original point was him as a second option compared to Lamar Odom and Caron Butler (when he was a Laker). And then I moved to debating his worth as a player in general, not specifically as a second option. The fact that he WAS the second option is why those teams sucked. They didn't have enough good players. Hardly Ricky Davis' fault.

Playing on a poor team has no bearing on a role player's worth. The fact that he was important to even one team's bid for the playoffs (Celtics 04-05) is enough to prove that.

I'm not sure what you mean by that you can't trust him with the ball in his hands. His career percentages are decent, and he isn't a turnover machine. So, baseless comment. He isn't going to be your point guard, if that's what you mean. He can also shoot the three ball, so I don't see how that correlates with your claim that he requires the ball to be effective. Although keep in mind by the time he hit Miami he had lost pretty much all of his athleticism and it made him a relatively poor player; I can remember maybe one dunk that whole year.

He was always a below average defender though.

And on the drug suspensions, well, I don't think that hurts his comparisons against Odom...

Edit: And yeah, his head was messed up; he could have been an allstar if someone like Pop could have coached him and screwed it on straight.

[R-Pattz]

When I say you can't trust him with the ball...I'm referring to his decision-making. Ricky wants the stats and the glory. If you're just gonna look at his raw stats he appears serviceable...but he really isn't a player you can count on to actually impact your team in a positive way. He's had the chance to play several different roles, and he hasn't seen success in any of them. Even in Boston his worth was disputed, and has been pretty much confirmed in the half decade since. He's not and was never a serviceable second option on any team. Lamar has likewise received his share of criticism for his decision-making on the court, but I'd still feel a lot more comfortable with him on my team than Ricky Davis.

[bstickq1]

When I say you can't trust him with the ball...I'm referring to his decision-making. Ricky wants the stats and the glory. If you're just gonna look at his raw stats he appears serviceable...but he really isn't a player you can count on to actually impact your team in a positive way. He's had the chance to play several different roles, and he hasn't seen success in any of them. Even in Boston his worth was disputed, and has been pretty much confirmed in the half decade since. He's not and was never a serviceable second option on any team. Lamar has likewise received his share of criticism for his decision-making on the court, but I'd still feel a lot more comfortable with him on my team than Ricky Davis.

As compared to Lamar Odom and Caron Butler when he was on LAL, he was a better second option. That was the original argument.

And yes, he did impact Boston in a positive way when he was runner up for 6th man of the year. There is no dispute there.

Again, the quality of a role player's team is not reflective of his worth as a role player. By extension of this, it would be far fetched to call Ricky Davis' good stats on those teams hollow and meaningless. How the teams would have fared without him is impossible to predict, and because he was a role player and not a star, his effect on the game isn't going to overcome the lack of talent on these teams and and affect the standings in a noticeable way.

Role players round out rosters, and if the roster isn't even a half a circle, than the addition of Ricky Davis is not going to result in a successful season.

[EarlTheGoat]

Wow difficult question, both had superb crappy teams and teammates, it actually makes me wonder the patience they had to have to handle that situation and not force a trade or whatever.

Kobe had a 15.5 Caron Butler, solid role player who occasionally turned into an almost all-star caliber player, he only lasted one season in Los Angeles.

Odom almost averaged a double-double from 2005 to 2007, he was clearly the second option to Kobe and he still is an important piece of the Lakers, having the 6th man role and had the 3rd option in role in both 2008 and 2009. The fact that he is still playing makes me think he was the best player when you asking what did Kobe and Garnett have.

Sam Cassell was a good solid point-guard, he was putting up good numbers in 2005, but like Butler, he only played for Minnesota one year of that stretch the OP mentioned.

Smush Parker was considered a third option, but really a forced third option. In a solid playoff team he would be no more than a role player. The Lakers were so crappy they had to find any player to step up and shoot more/have more the ball, thats basicly why Parker got overrated in LA.

Ricky Davis was a good player, perhaps didnt reach the Lamar Odom status, but he was near the range of 15-20 points per game and averaging almost 4 rebounds and 4 assists in two seasons played for the T-Wolves.


Its tied, but since Kobe`s teammates (excepting Butler) played for the whole stretch, from 2005 and 2007, while Garnett`s teammates didnt, Cassell only was in 2005 and Ricky was for 2 years, id say Kobe Bryant had the better team by a ver few margin.

[R-Pattz]

As compared to Lamar Odom and Caron Butler when he was on LAL, he was a better second option. That was the original argument.

And yes, he did impact Boston in a positive way when he was runner up for 6th man of the year. There is no dispute there.

Again, the quality of a role player's team is not reflective of his worth as a role player. By extension of this, it would be far fetched to call Ricky Davis' good stats on those teams hollow and meaningless. How the teams would have fared without him is impossible to predict, and because he was a role player and not a star, his effect on the game isn't going to overcome the lack of talent on these teams and and affect the standings in a noticeable way.

Role players round out rosters, and if the roster isn't even a half a circle, than the addition of Ricky Davis is not going to result in a successful season.

I really don't think he was a better second option. You keep referring to him as a roleplayer...but considering his skillset, his role should ideally be that of a star. Unfortunately, the decisions he makes just don't translate to success when he's on the court... trying to be the star. I don't think there's a single worse momentum killer in the NBA than Ricky Davis. Even in Boston, the only team that was even moderately successful in a weak conference, his contributions dropped considerably when it mattered.

If he was a quality player, then you'd think successful teams would want to take a chance on him, considering how low his value has been since he was with the Celtics...but no team that isn't lottery-bound has wanted him.

Maybe he could have played a major role on a successful team, but he hasn't, despite playing with a variety of coaches and rosters. Odom and Butler have winning seasons as the second/third best player on their teams..while Ricky's only trip to the play-offs was off the bench, in a season in which he had the worst plus-minus of the Celtics' roster.

I'm really trying to see things from your perspective, but I just can't see Ricky as anything more than a career loser who disappointed more than just about any other player in the league. To each his own I suppose.

[bstickq1]

I really don't think he was a better second option. You keep referring to him as a roleplayer...but considering his skillset, his role should ideally be that of a star. Unfortunately, the decisions he makes just don't translate to success when he's on the court... trying to be the star. I don't think there's a single worse momentum killer in the NBA than Ricky Davis. Even in Boston, the only team that was even moderately successful in a weak conference, his contributions dropped considerably when it mattered.

If he was a quality player, then you'd think successful teams would want to take a chance on him, considering how low his value has been since he was with the Celtics...but no team that isn't lottery-bound has wanted him.

Maybe he could have played a major role on a successful team, but he hasn't, despite playing with a variety of coaches and rosters. Odom and Butler have winning seasons as the second/third best player on their teams..while Ricky's only trip to the play-offs was off the bench, in a season in which he had the worst plus-minus of the Celtics' roster.

I'm really trying to see things from your perspective, but I just can't see Ricky as anything more than a career loser who disappointed more than just about any other player in the league. To each his own I suppose.

In that same season Lafrentz's plus/minus was nearly the same as Pierce's. It's almost as if the four other players on the court with you help determine that stat.

Trying to be a star, playing like a star, these are inarguable, immeasurable things you are using to discredit him as a player.

In what way is he killing momentum of a game by scoring on a good percentage and having a decent assist/to ratio?

And as for his contributions dropping when "it mattered", you are again referring to just one playoff series.

As for other teams not being interested, Davis has garnered a reputation of being a locker room cancer and he smokes a ton of weed. Keep in mind this has very little bearing on his legitimacy as a player on the court, which is the point I have been arguing.

As for Caron having winning seasons on other teams, this is irrelevant, because he wasn't the same player in LAL. He exploded to his potential in Washington. Of course he was more legit as a second option than Davis after that.

As for the Odom Davis comparison, Garnett simply wasn't dominate enough to have a winning record in 06-07 like Kobe was. There was no Garnet ball option like Kobe (or Wade in Miami), he simply didn't have the ability or mindset to take on that kind of scoring load.

[R-Pattz]

Whatever...I think it's ridiculous that anyone would ever consider Ricky Davis as anything more than a sparingly used bench player for a team that is actually destined for the play-offs, instead of either the lottery.. or play-off losses that include the most lopsided sweep in NBA history and a loss to a mediocre Pacers team in a decisive game 7 blow-out, both of which Ricky averaged 12 points a game in.

Not really sure what you're implying with KG's dominance(or lack thereof). I think you're talking about scoring-wise, and that's obviously true, but Ricky isn't the answer to take the load off KG. I agree with the premise that KG should play with scorers, but Ricky's on-court performance just wasn't good enough.

You can pose the question in a separate topic if you want to get a broader range of opinions on it...I personally consider Ricky to be the standard for 'cancer' type players in this league, and I derived that from watching team after team, roster after roster, and coach after coach achieve nothing but futility with him playing a signifcant role.

He's a player in it for the personal glory, and he doesn't try to hide it either. The result...a talented player ruining a team's chemistry on the court by making plays he isn't capable of, and off the court with his various antics.

[bstickq1]

Whatever...I think it's ridiculous that anyone would ever consider Ricky Davis as anything more than a sparingly used bench player for a team that is actually destined for the play-offs, instead of either the lottery.. or play-off losses that include the most lopsided sweep in NBA history and a loss to a mediocre Pacers team in a decisive game 7 blow-out, both of which Ricky averaged 12 points a game in.

Not really sure what you're implying with KG's dominance(or lack thereof). I think you're talking about scoring-wise, and that's obviously true, but Ricky isn't the answer to take the load off KG. I agree with the premise that KG should play with scorers, but Ricky's on-court performance just wasn't good enough.

You can pose the question in a separate topic if you want to get a broader range of opinions on it...I personally consider Ricky to be the standard for 'cancer' type players in this league, and I derived that from watching team after team, roster after roster, and coach after coach achieve nothing but futility with him playing a signifcant role.

He's a player in it for the personal glory, and he doesn't try to hide it either. The result...a talented player ruining a team's chemistry on the court by making plays he isn't capable of, and off the court with his various antics.

I forgot about the sweep against Indiana, but it is still a small sample size, particularly in a series where the entire team was dominated. If that had been a star player however, you may have had somewhat of a point.

He was an above average starter, or a good bench player. Averaging his allstar level skills and his messed up head, that's what you get.

And no, Davis wasn't the answer to take the load off of KG, and neither were Odom or Butler the answer for Kobe. There seems to be a disconnect between what I mean and what you think I mean.

And I was specifically referring to KG's scoring, but that was a weak point on my part anyway, I was in a time crunch when I typed it out.

Anyway, I wouldn't even bother making a thread about this; like I said, all I would get is that he sucks because he is Ricky Davis. And as for making plays he isn't capable of... decent percentages, not a turnover machine, good assist numbers... I'm not seeing it.

And finally, again, yes, by multiple reports he is a team cancer off the court, but this is irrelevant to his on court production, which is what I have been debating about this whole time.

Summing it up -
Was Ricky Davis a good player? Yes.
Was he a good second option? No.
Was he a better second option than Odom or Butler when on LAL? Yes
Was he a better player (note, different than second option) than Odom in 06-07? More debatable, it would be close.
Did Ricky Davis party with under aged girls and smoke weed frequently? Yes.

I'll give you credit for at least debating about it, instead of triple double jokes as counter points.

I have a feeling in 10 years I'm going to have a similar discussion about JR Smith.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Uh yes they do...who's gonna stop the Smush-Sasha backcourt combo?

I'm about as far from a Kobe homer as you can get, but one thing that you can use in his favor when arguing GOAT is that he made Smush Parker not just a solid player but a well-known player with multiple highlight mixes on youtube. :bowdown:

[SALFORD-RED]

I'm about as far from a Kobe homer as you can get, but one thing that you can use in his favor when arguing GOAT is that he made Smush Parker not just a solid player but a well-known player with multiple highlight mixes on youtube. :bowdown:

I love how people state unequivically that Kobe made Smush the player that he was in those years when the general consensus is that in that era at least Kobe made NO-ONE on his team better. Why was Smush the exception?

[Jacks3]

Ariza, Odom, Gasol, Smush, Jermaine Jones, Chris Mihm, Kwame all got better playing next to Bryant. lol @ the exception. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/4982/kobe.jpg

yeah, Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. :rolleyes:

[SALFORD-RED]

Ariza, Odom, Gasol, Smush, Jermaine Jones, Chris Mihm, Kwame all got better playing next to Bryant. lol @ the exception. :oldlol:


:oldlol: :oldlol: LMFAO, when exactly did Kwame get better, period. He was garbage his whole time on the Lakers. Chris Mihm :oldlol: And Odom another :oldlol: Odom is just Odom, inconstistent, great at times, invisible at others. Kobe didnt make shit better on those Laker teams, they were garbage no doubt but he did not make them better.

[Jacks3]

Kobe didnt make shit better on those Laker teams, they were garbage no doubt but he did not make them better.
See chart. Numbers don't lie.

[SALFORD-RED]

See chart. Numbers don't lie.

Chart is bs, Smush was never on the Lakers at the same time as Fisher.

[Jacks3]

It was done in 08 after Smush left...

[mashbelly]

The starting lineups of Kobe and KG between 2005-2007


Kobe 2005
-Caron Butler
-Chucky Atkins
-Lamar Odom
-Chris Mihm

KG 2005
-Latrell Sprewell
-Troy Hudson
-Trenton Hassell
-Ervin Johnson


Kobe 2006
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Chris Mihm
-Brian Cook

KG 2006
-Trenton Hassell
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Marcus Banks


Kobe 2007
-Lamar Odom
-Smush Parker
-Kwame Brown
-Luke Walton

KG 2007
-Ricky Davis
-Mark Blount
-Mike James
-Trenton Hassell


wow i've never seen any lineups worse than those 2 team's. These are like the NBDL allstar lineup

KoMe

[KG5MVP]

KoMe

KG

[drza44]

By every objective measure there is, KG's teammates in 2007 were solidly worse than Kobe's. PER, adjusted +/-, win shares, wins produced...it's really not that close.

The same on a subjective level, if you really look closely at it. I've seen it said in this thread that Smush Parker is out of the NBA, so therefore Kobe's cast was bad. Well, EVERY STARTER ON THE '07 WOLVES OUTSIDE OF KG is out of the NBA. In fact, of the 14 non-KG players on the 2007 Wolves roster, only 2 are still in the NBA...Randy Foye and Craig Smith. They were rookies in 2007, and are currently 10th and 11th men on the awful Clippers. Every other player on the ENTIRE roster is out of the NBA.

Marinate on that for a second.

[ginobli2311]

i'd take kobe's team for sure in 2005 over kg's.

not sure about 2006....on paper it looks like kg had a better team..but the wolves had no good defenders outside of kg.

davis and wally might as well have not played defense.

also. don't forget that wally only played 40 games. davis only played 36. banks only 40. blount only 42. hudson only 36.

on paper i'll take the wolves over the lakers that year in terms of supporting casts. but with all the injuries? i think the lakers were better.

2007? looks like the lakers were better.

both teams were awful in that stretch. but the wolves seem to be a lot worse actually....

[RazorBaLade]

i'd take kobe's team for sure in 2005 over kg's.

not sure about 2006....on paper it looks like kg had a better team..but the wolves had no good defenders outside of kg.

davis and wally might as well have not played defense.

also. don't forget that wally only played 40 games. davis only played 36. banks only 40. blount only 42. hudson only 36.

on paper i'll take the wolves over the lakers that year in terms of supporting casts. but with all the injuries? i think the lakers were better.

2007? looks like the lakers were better.

both teams were awful in that stretch. but the wolves seem to be a lot worse actually....

everyone is surprised u think this. lololol. any injury comparisons for la?

[ginobli2311]

everyone is surprised u think this. lololol. any injury comparisons for la?

of course they did. never said they didn't. just not to the extent of the wolves.

i'm sure you are talking about 05

kobe played 66 games
butler 77
atkins 82
odom 64
mhm 75
jones 76
cook 72
grant 69

george only played 15 games.

butler/odom/kobe....even not at full strength trumps what kg had to work with in 05.

[ginobli2311]

and i was removing both kobe and kg from the teams.

if you put them both in....then yes...05 goes to kg having the better team mainly because kobe missed 16 games and was bothered by injuries all year while kg was perfectly healthy.

sorry if i did the analysis wrong. if we include kg and kobe in 05....i think the wolves had the better team pretty easily.

[RazorBaLade]

Doesn't make much sense for me to remove anyone from either lineup, we're comparing entire teams here.

I was talking about 06 though because I believe thats where you said the wolves were plagued by injuries, so I'm wondering how the lakers were.. I don't even remember.

[ginobli2311]

Doesn't make much sense for me to remove anyone from either lineup, we're comparing entire teams here.

I was talking about 06 though because I believe thats where you said the wolves were plagued by injuries, so I'm wondering how the lakers were.. I don't even remember.

mihm missed 23 games
kwame missed 10 games
george missed 1 games
walton missed 13 games

thats it for their top 8 players.

the thread says "worse teammates" so i just removed kobe and kg from the equation. if we are talking about who had the better teams overall? its wolves in 05 and then the lakers in 06/07. really nothing to debate there.

the reason i said kobe had better help in 05 is i really think that team could have won 50 games if kobe had been his normal self all year. wasn't hating on kobe at all. he just wasn't himself and it showed.

on the other hand, kg, played all 82 games and put up 22 points/14 boards/6 assists on 50% shooting and played great first team all-defense and the wolves still only won 44 games.

[RazorBaLade]

Oh okay. My bad then, nice factual points. I think comparing teammates individually might be more on par though instead of looking at it as a team if we're just going by the thread title.

PG vs PG, SG vs SG etc. Well excluding KG and Kobe.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Garnett. Sprewell's the only notable name there, and he stopped being good around 2001 or 2002. Totally got by on rep for his last few years.

[Rambis]

Whoa! Did Ginobili just get rational here for a few posts? Awesome.

I think it's the fact that there are so few quality big men in the league that has led to the "overrating" of Duncan.

Ginobili might be right that Duncan could have taken Kobe's cast to the 2nd round with the right opponent.

I think Kobe was a better player -- more skills -- but you can't teach size, and Duncan is/was a very good player with fewer quality 4's and 5's to play against.

Also, the triangle was a stupid thing to be doing for the Lakers at around these times. Few NBA players do it very well -- Ron Artest still looks like a moron out there trying to figure out what to do. A run-and-gun D'Antonio or Nash offense would have probably been better for everyone involved. The changing of the offense messed things up worse.

I do have to say, as someone who has watched every game Odom has played for years, that I certainly would be willing to trade him (over the years, not this year) for someone less talented but more consistent. He only seemed to play well every third game. Another point to consider is that he usually gets his points against other teams' second team, so his stats have been padded for a long time. HE definitely would have suited the D'Antonio offense, mostly cause he is an open court player (unfortunately with an iffy handle -- too tall without the skill to compensate, so he gets ripped when pressured) who plays pretty horrible defense at every position.

Caron just never seemed to fit that year. He and Kobe couldn't play together too well. BUT, The trade for Kwame was HORRIBLE except that he became Pau. The Wizards were stunned when they could get Caron for him. Blew my mind. Some really horrible GMing there.

So, that 2005 roster looked a lot better than it was. Cause it was baaaaaad.

Odom is really not a player you want on your team, because everyone thinks he's great and he's *REALLY* not. I definitely would have taken Rashad Lewis over Odom for the past couple years -- might not have quite the talent, but does what he does reasonably consistently, though I don't catch him much except in the playoffs, so I could be wrong. A catch and shoot 3 pt shooter with consistency would do well with Kobe, I believe. [This season, and the end of the last one, however, Odom has committed himself to rebounding, which is now what makes him so much more consistent/better, so of course now he is better than Rashard(sp?!)].

Overall, I think Phil Jackson hamstrings himself with his triangle offense, preventing athletic but relatively low basketball IQ players from being on his team. This is why the Lakers are perpetually horrible at defending true athletes -- see the Christmas game and every game against quick PG's for the last 20 years.

That Miami team with Caron and Lamar actually played the best for those two and it's too bad Kobe couldn't play that style with those guys, woulda been fun to watch. Still no D, though.

[wally_world]

KG had the GOAT Wally Szczerbiak :mad:

[NBASTATMAN]

When people rag on kobe for not making it past the first round of the playoffs after shaq was traded, I just laugh because if you arent a die hard laker fan who hung on through the bad times, you might not realize that kobe played with some true scrubs. when people say that dwade gets no help w/his current team, i just laugh.

Do you you guys recognize any of these names? These are guys who at one point, played more than scrub minutes for the lakers:

- Tierre Brown
- Jumaine Jones
- Chucky Atkins
- Laron Profit
- Kwame Brown
- Smush parker
- Brian Cook
- Slava Medvedenko
- Kareem Rush
- Chris Mihm

UNREAL

Atkins, Parker, Mihm and Brown STARTED at some point during that horrid stretch. LMAO


Atkins had played for some good teams before that year.. The 2005-6 laker team was ok when Kobe went out with a injury.. 6-8.. They suffered when Lamar was outEVEN WITH KOBE PLAYING, Their record 2-16 .. That team had some decent talent yet they didn't make the playoffs.. Kobe, Caron, lamar, atkins and Mihm was not a bad lineup...

In the 06-07 season kobe played his best ball with less talent.. Phil being the coach was the mian reason...