Pau Gasol vs. Dirk Nowitzki [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 07:10 PM

Who is the better player? He has had the better career thus far? Who had the better peak? They play the same position and are similar in age (Dirk is 31, Gasol 29).

Dirk Nowitzki

2007 MVP
4x all-NBA first team
3x all-NBA second team
2x all-NBA third team
3x Top 3 in MVP voting
7x top 10 in MVP voting
8x all-star
Led his team to nine straight 50+ win seasons

Pau Gasol

1x all-NBA third team
2x all-star
2002 Rookie of the Year
2009 NBA champion

Stats

Dirk

Career: 23/9/3
Peak: 27/9/3 (probably not his best season but statistically his best year)

Pau

Career: 19/9/3
Peak: 21/10/3 (not his best season but statistically his best year)

I go with Dirk for all three. Dirk is top 40 all-time imo.

KG5MVP

12-20-2009, 07:13 PM

this post is as pointless as a MJ vs. corey brewer comparison

Meticode

12-20-2009, 07:15 PM

ACCBaller1403

12-20-2009, 07:21 PM

As a first option it is clearly Dirk. More explosive offensively and much improved defensively. People forget that just last year, Pau Gasol was still considered soft, even by many Laker fans.

As a second option, I feel Dirk is slightly hurt in this comparison because we simply haven't ever seen Dirk as a second option outside of his first 2 years. If you have a Kobe/Lebron/Wade, I would say Pau/Dirk are probably around equal. If you have a legit center, give me Dirk 10/10 times.

The overrating of Gasol is getting quite out of hand. Very good player, but not top 10 in the league. I currently have Dirk at 4 based on his play this season.

beasted86

12-20-2009, 07:25 PM

Dirk Nowitzki's offensive game is slightly better than Pau Gasol's, but Dirk limits himself from the outside a lot. While Pau has a more consistent and efficient offensive game.

Pau Gasol is the better defender compared to Nowitzki.

Nowitzki is the better overall player, Gasol is the player I want on my team as a complimentary player to another player because he doesn't need the ball to be effective.

Give me Pau Gasol please.
I never understood this logic about "x player is better, but I want x player on my team" when not talking about a specific team.

It's one thing if a person is asking for example... which would fit better, Dirk or Pau for the Lakers, but when we are just comparing 2 players, give me the best player 10 times out of 10. Also.... even in situational comparison, give me the better player 9 times out of 10. Give me Wade & LeBron over Wade & Dirk, or whatever. I'd always rather have the best players and adjust the role players around them if need be.

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 07:26 PM

Yung D-Will

12-20-2009, 07:32 PM

International players = Da niceorz

Meticode

12-20-2009, 07:36 PM

I never understood this logic about "x player is better, but I want x player on my team" when not talking about a specific team.

It's one thing if a person is asking for example... which would fit better, Dirk or Pau for the Lakers, but when we are just comparing 2 players, give me the best player 10 times out of 10. Also.... even in situational comparison, give me the better player 9 times out of 10. Give me Wade & LeBron over Wade & Dirk, or whatever. I'd always rather have the best players and adjust the role players around them if need be.

There are players better than other players, but some players I just feel will never win a championship as a main player on their team with their play-style. Allen Iverson is a good example. I don't think Dirk will ever win a championship with the way he plays as the main option on a team. Pau is never going to be a main option (even though he was for a while with the sub-par Grizzlies) and he pretty much knows his role.

In saying that Dirk is the better player, but I'd still want Pau Gasol on my team over Dirk because a seven footer who plays away from the basket like a shooting guard isn't what usually wins championships. That's how I feel.

branslowski

12-20-2009, 07:38 PM

Gasol>>>insert PF...

RaceBannana

12-20-2009, 07:38 PM

Nowitzki have had the better career.

But if i had to pick one to start a franchise, Id choose Pau... Gasol is a better rounded player and more important, Gasol is a PF/C that plays like a PF/C with a fantastic back to the basket game, Im not a big fan of jump shooting big man.

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 07:46 PM

I don't think Dirk will ever win a championship with the way he plays as the main option on a team.

In his defense, he came close to doing it. His team was extremely close to going up 3-0 in the NBA finals. Yeah, part of the reason they lost was he underperformed but there were also some questionable call late in games, particularly Game 3. Dirk has never won a ring as the main scoring option but one can certainly envision him doing so.

redhonda76

12-20-2009, 07:48 PM

I would pick Dirk over Gasol.
Dirk can burn you from outside as well as in the post. He is always the first option. Gasol is not bad as the first option but he is even better as a second option. He fits in so well with the Lakers. Both are high IQ players.

For Roundball: I would also pick Dirk or Gasol over Amare anyday.

Meticode

12-20-2009, 07:49 PM

In his defense, he came close to doing it. His team was extremely close to going up 3-0 in the NBA finals. Yeah, part of the reason they lost was he underperformed but there were also some questionable call late in games, particularly Game 3. Dirk has never won a ring as the main scoring option but one can certainly envision him doing so.
Okay.

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 07:54 PM

Okay.

How many players today do you believe have the ability to lead their teams to a championship as the #1 (scoring) option? Dirk probably is a top 5 player right now. Only Kobe, Lebron (who performed far worse than Dirk when he got to the finals) and Wade?

For Roundball: I would also pick Dirk or Gasol over Amare anyday.

:mad:

Meticode

12-20-2009, 07:56 PM

How many players today do you believe have the ability to lead their teams to a championship as the #1 (scoring) option? Dirk probably is a top 5 player right now. Only Kobe, Lebron (who performed far worse than Dirk when he got to the finals) and Wade?

Not many, but he didn't win it. And I feel he never will win it as a #1.

ProfessorMurder

12-20-2009, 08:32 PM

Dirk all day, everyday. He's underrated as hell.

pierce2008mvp

12-20-2009, 08:36 PM

Bodhi

12-20-2009, 08:37 PM

Dirk all day, everyday. He's underrated as hell.

I think that first round loss permanently ruined his reputation.

ProfessorMurder

12-20-2009, 08:40 PM

I think that first round loss permanently ruined his reputation.

True, unfortunately.

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 08:41 PM

Dirk = Pierce and Gasol = Kobe

I love these equations. Here are a few others to consider:

Garnett = Telfair, Duncan = Livingston, Shaq = Big Mac, T-Mac = Little John, You = Bugs Bunny

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:00 PM

I would pick Gasol. Both are top 8 players in the league, although Gasol is more complete, he is a better rebounder, a better defender, a better blocker and a better assister. Nowtizki is a better shooter and a better scorer

Gasol is more a team player. Nowitzki is more a star. Give me Gasol before. Give me before prime Manu Ginobili than Carmelo Anthony too

NBASTATMAN

12-20-2009, 09:32 PM

I think that first round loss permanently ruined his reputation.

It did but that Mavs team was not that great.. Dirk played great that season and had his team overperform.. Dirk is better.. But I take Gasol if I need a complimentary player...

chitownsfinest

12-20-2009, 09:36 PM

Dirk for all three and Dirk if I need to start a franchise from scratch but if I need a complementary big and already have a high scoring perimeter player like Wade or Kobe, I take Gasol because I would rather have a great low post player who is a good passer then a great high post player who is average player. If I have a center like Bogut or Howard who plays in the low post, I take Dirk though. Both are great players though.

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:40 PM

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 09:41 PM

Nowitzki doesnt have any major team achievements

Neither had the teammates Gasol had. Both internationally and in the NBA.

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 09:44 PM

Gasol is also world champion, a european champion, a NBA champion and an Olympic finalist, being the star of a team who really putted in trouble the redream team

Nowitzki doesnt have any major team achievements

Gasol was 0-12 in the playoffs--including his 50 win team getting swept by Dirk's 53 win team (Dirk thoroughly outplayed Gasol too)--before teaming up with Kobe. Gasol is from Spain. Are we to penalize Dirk from being born in Germany and not playing for the great Spanish team?

chitownsfinest

12-20-2009, 09:44 PM

Gasol is also world champion, a european champion, a NBA champion and an Olympic finalist, being the star of a team who really putted in trouble the redream team

Nowitzki doesnt have any major team achievements
Dirk's individual accomplishment's sh!t on Gasol's though and make up for that difference in team accomplishments. Dirk also has never had a coach as good as Phil or a player close to Kobe either. Not to mention, Dirk took a steaming dump on Gasol in the 06 playoffs.

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:47 PM

Gasol was 0-12 in the playoffs--including his 50 win team getting swept by Dirk's 53 win team (Dirk thoroughly outplayed Gasol too)--before teaming up with Kobe. Gasol is from Spain. Are we to penalize Dirk from being born in Germany and not playing for the great Spanish team?

Which was the level of spanish basketball before the arrival of Gasol? What would be the level of the spanish NT without Gasol?

With Gasol being a leader and a bunch of scrubs, Memphis made 3 consecutive playoff appearances. Thats a huge succes for a team like them

Moreover Gasol is not today the player he was back in 06. He has evolved a lot, specially in toughness and defense. I dont think that Nowitzki today is a very different player to the one of 06

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 09:49 PM

Which was the level of spanish basketball before the arrival of Gasol?

Pretty good. At Eurobasket:

Gold: 2009
Silver: 1935, 1973, 1983, 1999, 2003, 2007
Bronze: 1991, 2001

Watch the table at the bottom of the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_basketball_team

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 09:51 PM

Which was the level of spanish basketball before the arrival of Gasol? What would be the level of the spanish NT without Gasol?

With Gasol being a leader and a bunch of scrubs, Memphis made 3 consecutive playoff appearances. Thats a huge succes for a team like them

A bunch of scrubs were led to 50 wins by Gasol? Why did he struggle to lead his team to more than 20 wins in the next three years? If he had the Midas touch to take scrubs to 50 wins, something even Jordan could not do, surely he would have used it after 2006. Where was he when it counted in 06' btw? Dirk thrashed him and swept him.

Where was Argentinian basketball before Manu? Manu also has 3 rings. Does Manu>Clyde Drexler since he has far more team accomplishments?

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:54 PM

Pretty good. At Eurobasket:

Gold: 2009
Silver: 1935, 1973, 1983, 1999, 2003, 2007
Bronze: 1991, 2001

Without Gasol the spanish NT had never won a major tournament. With him they are current world and european champions, olympic finalists and one of the biggest european national teams ever to exist, in a relative small country where most people arent even interested in basketball (football, cycling, tennis or motorsports have much more TV audience than basketball)

The spanish team has achieved more with Gasol than in all its history. I dont think its something by chance

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 09:55 PM

The spanish team has achieved more with Gasol than in all its history. I dont think its something by chance

True.

However, you are comparing that to the German team. Not all time, but in the Dirk-timeframe. Could you please tell me a few active German basketball players w/o looking the names up?

Thank you.

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:55 PM

A bunch of scrubs were led to 50 wins by Gasol? Why did he struggle to lead his team to more than 20 wins in the next three years? If he had the Midas touch to take scrubs to 50 wins, something even Jordan could not do, surely he would have used it after 2006. Where was he when it counted in 06' btw? Dirk thrashed him and swept him.

Where was Argentinian basketball before Manu? Manu also has 3 rings. Does Manu>Clyde Drexler since he has far more team accomplishments?

I havent seen Clyde Drexler play. But Manu is one of the best 10 players to play the game in the last decade for sure

In his prime twice the player Carmelo Anthony has ever been

Hyman

12-20-2009, 09:58 PM

A bunch of scrubs were led to 50 wins by Gasol? Why did he struggle to lead his team to more than 20 wins in the next three years? If he had the Midas touch to take scrubs to 50 wins, something even Jordan could not do, surely he would have used it after 2006. Where was he when it counted in 06' btw? Dirk thrashed him and swept him.

Where was Argentinian basketball before Manu? Manu also has 3 rings. Does Manu>Clyde Drexler since he has far more team accomplishments?

Were not Memphis a bunch of scrubs?

Is not this Memphis team, much more talented than Gasol's memphis team was.

Do u have any doubt that if Pau replaced Randolph at Memphis, they would become real finals of conference contenders?

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 09:58 PM

The spanish team has achieved more with Gasol than in all its history. I dont think its something by chance

The same thing can be said about Manu and the Argentinian team, which won an Olympic gold.

I havent seen Clyde Drexler play. But Manu is one of the best 10 players to play the game in the last decade for sure

In his prime twice the player Carmelo Anthony has ever been

Ok. How about Chris Paul? Gasol has far more team accomplishments than him. There is an age difference between them. Yao? Yao was always considered a better player, was an elite player but Gasol has more team success.

Were not Memphis a bunch of scrubs?

Gasol was not even all-NBA third team that year and received 0 MVP votes. That is odd if indeed he carried scrubs to 50 wins. Gasol is not the type of player who can lead scrubs to 50 wins (think Kareem, Bird, Russell). Look at Wade. He can barely get his scrubs to .500 and Wade is far superior to Gasol (although Gasol has more team accomplishments than Wade as well). If Gasol carried scrubs he would have done it in subsequent years as well. What happened? Gasol remained Gasol. Why the decline from a 50 win team to a perennial 20 win team?

Hyman

12-20-2009, 10:02 PM

The same thing can be said about Manu and the Argentinian team, which won an Olympic gold.

Ok. How about Chris Paul? Gasol has far more team accomplishments than him. There is an age difference between them. Yao? Yao was always considered a better player, was an elite player but Gasol has more team success.

Its impossible to compare Gasol with Chris Paul. Chris Paul is much younger and in my opinion, he can be one of the best guards ever. He has definitely a very long carreer, and his peak is highers than Gasol

Hyman

12-20-2009, 10:04 PM

Gasol was not even all-NBA third team that year and received 0 MVP votes. That is odd if indeed he carried scrubs to 50 wins. Gasol is not the type of player who can lead scrubs to 50 wins (think Kareem, Bird, Russell). Look at Wade. He can barely get his scrubs to .500 and Wade is far superior to Gasol (although Gasol has more team accomplishments than Wade as well). If Gasol carried scrubs he would have done it in subsequent years as well. What happened? Gasol remained Gasol. Why the decline from a 50 win team to a perennial 20 win team?

Theres a thing called motivation

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 10:08 PM

Theres a thing called motivation

Gasol decided to quit? This is the first I have heard about this. Where did you get the idea that Gasol, whose production remained the same and actually slightly improved, decided to mail it in a la Vince Carter because a 50 win team got owned by Dirk's 53 win team? If he was unmotivated his production didn't reflect it.

How about Yao vs. Gasol? They are about the same age. Yao is, or at least was before Gasol went to LA, considered a much better individual player but Gasol has more team success.

Floppy

12-20-2009, 10:29 PM

Without Gasol the spanish NT had never won a major tournament. With him they are current world and european champions, olympic finalists and one of the biggest european national teams ever to exist, in a relative small country where most people arent even interested in basketball (football, cycling, tennis or motorsports have much more TV audience than basketball)

The spanish team has achieved more with Gasol than in all its history. I dont think its something by chance
Class comedy. Of course they won cause of Gasol and all the other spanish players who played in the NBA or were going to the NBA were only that good cause of Gasol. :roll:

Name one german player who plays an important role on a Euroleague contender.

You are so full of ****.

Lebron23

12-20-2009, 10:31 PM

Give me Dirk Nowitzki 24/7.

Dirk >>>> Gasol

magnax1

12-20-2009, 10:37 PM

Dirk. Neither are good defenders, Gasol is the better rebounder, but isn't half as skilled on offense, even though Dirk takes the biggest amount of lazy shots by any player ever.

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 10:41 PM

Dirk. Neither are good defenders, Gasol is the better rebounder, but isn't half as skilled on offense, even though Dirk takes the biggest amount of lazy shots by any player ever.

You are wrong on many counts, except taking Dirk.

1) Gasol is a decent defender. I'd even call him a good one as of late. Pick n roll defense is good, rebounding is good, help defense is good.

2) Gasol is just as skilled as Dirk, maybe even more so. He is a less prolific scorer, but not any less skilled. Watch them play, please. Gasol is also the better passer of the two.

I'd take Dirk, too, but not for the reasons you stated.

magnax1

12-20-2009, 10:46 PM

You are wrong on many counts, except taking Dirk.

1) Gasol is a decent defender. I'd even call him a good one as of late. Pick n roll defense is good, rebounding is good, help defense is good.

2) Gasol is just as skilled as Dirk, maybe even more so. He is a less prolific scorer, but not any less skilled. Watch them play, please. Gasol is also the better passer of the two.

I'd take Dirk, too, but not for the reasons you stated.
I forgot about passing, and Gasol does win that, but Gasol is in no way a good defender. Hes good at contesting shots, and hes above average at pick and roll D, but he gets backed down in the post waaaaay to easy. And Gasol is not as skilled as Dirk, Dirk can do everything that Gasol can do + shoot jumpers better than almost anyone in the league. Even though he doesn't use alot of that skill enough, he still has it.

elementally morale

12-20-2009, 10:49 PM

And Gasol is not as skilled as Dirk

Well, I disagree. Skillwise, Gasol is up there with the best of them. And he has become a better than average (=good) defender. Not excellent, but like 7.5 on a scale of 10.

But I'll leave it at that, we can agree to disagree.

D-Rose

12-20-2009, 11:06 PM

I forgot about passing, and Gasol does win that, but Gasol is in no way a good defender. Hes good at contesting shots, and hes above average at pick and roll D, but he gets backed down in the post waaaaay to easy. And Gasol is not as skilled as Dirk, Dirk can do everything that Gasol can do + shoot jumpers better than almost anyone in the league. Even though he doesn't use alot of that skill enough, he still has it.
Defensive Rating (pts allowed in 100 posessions)
Gasol: 97
Garnett: 97
Dwight: 97
Perkins: 97
Oden: 97
Bynum: 99
Duncan: 101
Dirk: 101
Noah: 103
Amare: 109
Bosh: 113

Roundball_Rock

12-20-2009, 11:17 PM

Defensive Rating (pts allowed in 100 posessions)

That is one of the most flawed stats. It is greatly influenced by how good your team's defense is. Look at the top 20 in defensive rating:

Defensive Rating
1. Gerald Wallace-CHA 96.0
2. Rasheed Wallace-BOS 96.1
3. Lamar Odom-LAL 96.5
4. Pau Gasol-LAL 96.8
5. Greg Oden-POR 97.1
6. Kendrick Perkins-BOS 97.1
7. Dwight Howard-ORL 97.4
8. Kevin Garnett-BOS 97.4
9. Josh Smith-ATL 97.8
10. Rajon Rondo-BOS 97.9
11. Marcus Camby-LAC 98.1
12. Kobe Bryant-LAL 98.6
13. Andrew Bynum-LAL 98.7
14. Erick Dampier-DAL 99.0
15. Joel Przybilla-POR 99.1
16. Tyson Chandler-CHA 99.7
17. Andrew Bogut-MIL 99.7
18. Anderson Varejao-CLE 100.1
19. Tim Duncan-SAS 100.6
20. Derek Fisher-LAL 100.7

Does Boston really have four of the ten best defenders? LA four of the top 12 and five of the top 20? Note that Charlotte has two as does Portland.

Team's defensive rankings

Boston: 2nd
Charlotte: 3rd
Portland: 8th (probably higher when Oden played)
Cleveland: 4th
Lakers: 1st
Atlanta: 10th
Spurs: 11th
Clippers: 13th
Milwaukee: 6th

So other than former DPOY's Camby and Duncan everyone else on the list plays for a top 10 defense. According to defensive rating 45% of the NBA's top 20 defenders happen to play on just two teams.

Want more proof? Gasol himself. His defensive rating was 111 in 2007-08 when he was in Memphis but 105 when he was in LA. Memphis was 28th in defense, LA 5th. Unfortunately there is no reliable stat to gauge defense. Defensive win shares and defensive rating are very flawed.

Gasol is a good defender, though, imo and better than Dirk. However, Dirk is much better than Gasol offensively. There is reason why he has all those all-NBA selections and Gasol barely squeaked onto the third team once (when elite PF's Amare, Boozer and KG--all who were all-NBA the year before--were hurt).

wang4three

12-21-2009, 02:14 AM

Pau in the span of 2 years has become the most overrated player on this board. By far. You'd think he was Hakeem mixed with David Robinson reading some of these comments.

How has Pau gotten better in the last two years that he can be mentioned in the elite power forwards of the league? What has he added to his game? For me, it's a question of who. And that who, is Kobe. Lets not forget that Pau was 0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe.

Dirk might have had an embarrassing first round outing in 2007, but its not that bad compared to the fact that Pau could not lead his team to 1 victory in the post season. Yet, now somehow people would take him over Duncan, Dirk, and KG...for what reason.. I don't know.

kentatm

12-21-2009, 02:34 AM

Which was the level of spanish basketball before the arrival of Gasol? What would be the level of the spanish NT without Gasol?

With Gasol being a leader and a bunch of scrubs, Memphis made 3 consecutive playoff appearances. Thats a huge succes for a team like them

Moreover Gasol is not today the player he was back in 06. He has evolved a lot, specially in toughness and defense. I dont think that Nowitzki today is a very different player to the one of 06

Wow. You sure as hell don't know much about Euro ball to make an asinine comparison like that. Do you know just how weak basketball is in Germany? Frigging handball is more popular. It was a major accomplishment for Dirk to just lead them to an Olympics berth.

Basketball Dirk

12-21-2009, 03:12 AM

Mr Know It All

12-21-2009, 03:15 AM

The fact that it is even debatable here is telling of how moronic some people on this board are. Dirk is head and shoulders above Gasol.

The arguments I hear here are that Gasol is a better fundamental power forward than Dirk, which although true, is a moot point. Carlos Boozer and Chris Bosh are also more prototypical at the PF position than Dirk, but they are no where close to him as a player.

Gasol has played great on a team with Kobe Bryant, a terrific coach, and a terrific team. I don't know how you can even conjure up the nerve to say Gasol is near Dirk when you look at how they performed as #1 options. Dirk is a 25 and 11 producer in the playoffs, with 2 WCF Finals appearances, an NBA Finals appearance, and has been on 3 60 win teams. Remember, this is an the #1 option and on two of those teams he had Josh Howard as the second best player. I think most would agree that Howard isn't even a top 20 player in this league.

Compare that to Gasol, who as stated was 0-12 in the playoffs and was traded for garbage as "his" Memphis Grizzlies went down the tubes under his leadership. The comparison alone is mindboggling here. There is one factor that makes this an argument on this board:

1) Gasol is a Laker

It's a fact. And if Chris Bosh was a Laker he'd probably put up some great numbers as well, you switch him with Gasol and I guarantee you that team still has more than a good chance at the championship. Instead, Gasol is being raised to the pantheon of great power forwards in this league and Bosh is swept on the rug on a bad team.

This is a joke of a thread and a joke of a comparison. Dirk is the most dynamic scoring power forward this league has ever seen. Gasol is a very good player who is on a great team, playing with a top 5 player in the league. Time to stop kidding ourselves. Dirk by a mile.

AJ2k8

12-21-2009, 03:24 AM

^^ Well aren't you Mr know it all...

Drinker

12-21-2009, 05:18 AM

Comparing 2 absolutely diferent type of players just becosue they are same tall is never fair. a Duncan Gasol wodl have been more fair as both play PF/C type of game.

as in terms of career I would give the edge to Dirk clearly.

But people tend to look at the career while I looking at current season (his peak) and last one.

People will never forget his 0/12 playoffs while forget the big suceed that was to reach beign there with the team he had in a stacked West.

He has been improved everysingle year till today.

his defense has been amazingly improving (amazingly) since last season. why I can't see more people talking about his defense on superman on the finals is something I can't understand as it was nothing but legendary. he totally shut him down all by himself. and right now he is a good to very good defender.

Better than Dirk? I don't think so, but different kind of player he is.

Better than KG THIS year he is for sure.

But if some people do talk about how good gasol is (which he is), I don't see the need for other dirks, tims, kevins, etc fans to hurry up to say he is not, it does not mean your boys are any worse.

TROLL_HUNTER

12-21-2009, 07:52 AM

Answer to the main question: Dirk. all of you guys have pointed out the reasons already. In any case, this question will be worth a revisit after the careers of both of them come to an end. that will be interesting. Right now: Dirk. All his NBA achievements are not to be overlooked.

However, I express my total shock at some stupid argument (no way to call it otherwise) about the 0-12 of Gasol in the playoffs... as somebody said, leading that team to a playoff is such achievement that speaks out for itself. I mean, where was the Great Kobe in the years in between teaming up with Shaq and now Gasol?? hybernating or something? no, he failed massively year after year cos he was surrounded by scrubs, as much as Gasol was and thats why he asked for a move before the Gasol trade. This means that miracles dont exist. If a superstar like Kobe cannot make a winner team on his own, you cannot ask Gasol to do that precisely, being him an inferior player.

Pimpdaddy311991

12-21-2009, 09:17 AM

Really this isnt a comp dirk takes this easily

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 03:39 PM

However, I express my total shock at some stupid argument (no way to call it otherwise) about the 0-12 of Gasol in the playoffs... as somebody said, leading that team to a playoff is such achievement that speaks out for itself. I mean, where was the Great Kobe in the years in between teaming up with Shaq and now Gasol?? hybernating or something? no, he failed massively year after year cos he was surrounded by scrubs, as much as Gasol was and thats why he asked for a move before the Gasol trade.

Weak argument. The analogy depends on Kobe (or any number of other legends, including Jordan, that you could use) having a similarly bad team as Gasol. Gasol was on teams that won 50 games without an all-star. Kobe was on teams that had the best or second best player in the league and won 45 games. If Gasol is as good as alleged he should have been worth a few playoff wins. Scrubs? His contemporaries Garnett and Bosh led similarly mediocre teams to playoff wins. The best or second best PF in the game is not worth a single playoff win? Gasol was outplayed by Duncan, Marion (Amare also had a better series than Gasol), and Dirk during each series. If he played better his team would have won a game or two.

lakerfreak

12-21-2009, 03:40 PM

this post is as pointless as a MJ vs. corey brewer comparison

No I would have to say its more of an MJ to Barkley comparison.

LA_Showtime

12-21-2009, 03:44 PM

is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.

Dave3

12-21-2009, 03:51 PM

is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.
Unfair statement because no one knows how effective of a second option Dirk could be...

LA_Showtime

12-21-2009, 03:54 PM

Unfair statement because no one knows how effective of a second option Dirk could be...

i was asking a question. i hardly qualify that as a statement.

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 04:05 PM

is it possible that dirk is the better first option but gasol is the better second option?.... hmmmm.

What logic is this based on? I have heard several posters say this and I don't understand it. Would you rather have Gasol as your #2 option than Lebron because Gasol has done well as the #2 option and Lebron is an unknown in that role?

This "option" stuff is vastly overrated on ISH. When Jordan retired Pippen took one more shot a game. In other words, on the court his role was basically the same as it was with Jordan. Pippen himself has said this. Did that extra shot make him a better player?

LA_Showtime

12-21-2009, 04:06 PM

What logic is this based on? I have heard several posters say this and I don't understand it. Would you rather have Gasol as your #2 option than Lebron because Gasol has done well as the #2 option and Lebron is an unknown in that role?

This "option" stuff is vastly overrated on ISH. When Jordan retired Pippen took one more shot a game. In other words, on the court his role was basically the same as it was with Jordan. Pippen himself has said this. Did that extra shot make him a better player?

it was brought up to bring discussion. notice the question mark.

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 04:10 PM

I know. I am not asking you in particular but the half a dozen or so posters in this thread who have said they would rather have Gasol as their #2. It is a good question.

Dave3

12-21-2009, 04:24 PM

i was asking a question. i hardly qualify that as a statement.
Oh, I thought it was sarcasm, like you were stating something by asking a question that seemed obvious. My bad

vert48

12-21-2009, 05:02 PM

I like Gasol, and he fits into the Triangle really well. Having said that, ARE YOU F"NG KIDDING ME?!? Dirk on the Lakers would be, as I have said in the past, redirkulous.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 06:00 PM

Dirk is a top 5 player this year, Gasol is top10. There is the answer: Dirk is better. Speaking of their careers, NBA-wise it's Dirk. In the FIBA compteitions it's Gasol, due to having had a better team. (Both of them play very well at international events.)

Dirk has easily played better in most FIBA competitions. Pau isn't even demanding half the defensive attention Dirk is, be it FIBA or NBA games.

Defensively, Pau is better and he is a bit more efficient with the ball.

how in bloody hell is Pau more efficient with the ball than Dirk. Are you aware of Dirk's ridiculously low TO rates considering that he is the #1 option on his team for years? Even as the #2 option alongside Kobe and one of the most stacked teams of this decade Pau is averaging more TOs than Dirk.

Still, overall I take Dirk. He is a top50 player of all time for sure. Let's see how he ends his career to get into more details.

Dirk is a top 30 player of all time as of right now, and top 5 this past decade.

Bigsmoke

12-21-2009, 06:09 PM

Locked_Up_Tonight

12-21-2009, 06:21 PM

I'm not sure Dirk is Top 30. But Simmons is amending what he said earlier in his own book:

To answer your rankings question about my book from five tangents ago, I have many small regrets (to be expected) and one big one: Putting Iverson (No. 29) too high. That was the one Pyramid-related instance of my affection for someone clouding my judgment to some degree. If I could do it over again, Level 3 of the Pyramid would start with George Mikan at No. 36, then the George Gervin/Sam Jones combo, then Iverson at No. 33, then Kevin McHale, then Dave Cowens and Willis Reed. But as I rattle off this group again, I'm realizing that Dirk (the league's best clutch scorer and its third most important player behind LeBron and Kobe) and Nash (having a vintage Nash season and reinventing the whole "D'Antoni's offense made Nash" argument to the point that you could make a much better case that Nash made D'Antoni) are enjoying such renaissances that they might have bulldozed their way into Level 3. So maybe Nash jumps to No. 36 and Dirk vaults past Iverson to No. 32.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 06:29 PM

how in bloody hell is Pau more efficient with the ball than Dirk.

By shooting a higher % and having more assists. That is offensive efficiency with the ball in your hand.

Dirk has easily played better in most FIBA competitions.

I said both of them played well and Pau had more success. What's wrong with this assessment?

Dirk is a top 30 player of all time as of right now

If I put everyone in the top 30 people claim is a top 30 player, I'd have like 50-60 players there already. I'm not saying it's out of the question Dirk will be top 30 when it's all said and done, but I find it hard to make a place for him there for now. Top 40 is more like it, I think. But let's wait until he finishes his career and rate him then.

vert48

12-21-2009, 06:31 PM

I'm not sure Dirk is Top 30. But Simmons is amending what he said earlier in his own book:Is there a link to BS's all time NBA Ranking list?

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 06:36 PM

Is there a link to BS's all time NBA Ranking list?

He changed it two times since the book got published. Moved Shaq futher down and Kobe up for example. He should have wated a few more years until Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson et al. retire to be able to make better, longer-lasting standings.

vert48

12-21-2009, 06:39 PM

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 06:46 PM

It is always going to be a moving target. Link to current list?

I have only his top 10 (now top 11) at hand. When the book came out it was:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
09. Oscar Robertson
08. Jerry West
07. Tim Duncan
06. Wilt Chamberlain
05. Larry Bird
04. Magic Johnson
03. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
02. Bill Russell
01. Michael Jordan

And Shaq was at #12 and Kobe at #15. Simmons wrote a few weeks ago that he puts Kobe at #9 now and is thinking of pushing Shaq a bit down.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 06:49 PM

By shooting a higher % and having more assists. That is offensive efficiency with the ball in your hand.

you're not saying he is a better offensive player, are you? He shoots a higher percentage basically because he isn't a #1 option anymore and shoots less overall, not because he is a better scorer.

Anyways, I can't believe we're really comparing a go-to guy superstar to a complimentary offensive player. Pau was never really good enough to have the role of a Dirk, Kobe, Wade offensively, which is why he has never taken more than 15.4 shots per game, which he did on 48% shooting. Despite Gasols great passing, Dirk is pretty easily and obviously the better offensive player.

I said both of them played well and Pau had more success. What's wrong with this assessment?

we're ranking individual players here, and Pau simply had far better teammates, which is the only reason he has won more than Dirk. Dirk lead Germany, a team with no other relevant international player, to a silver medal at ECs and a bronze medal at WCs.

If I put everyone in the top 30 people claim is a top 30 player, I'd have like 50-60 players there already. I'm not saying it's out of the question Dirk will be top 30 when it's all said and done, but I find it hard to make a place for him there for now. Top 40 is more like it, I think. But let's wait until he finishes his career and rate him then.

Dirk is pretty much in that Clyde Drexler category or even higher, depends on how much value his MVP and leading the league in PER twice. And we surely do agree that Drexler is top 30 at the very least.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 06:56 PM

you're not saying he is a better offensive player, are you?

No, I'm not. I'm saying he is more efficient with the ball in his hand. It's like saying Nash is more efficient with the ball in his hand than Kobe Bryant is. it is true, and it still wont't make nash a better offensive player (he is on par though or very very close, I have to admit).

Dirk is pretty easily and obviously the better offensive player.

Noone argued otherwise, I have certainly not. Dirk is the better offensive player, yes. And Gasol is the better defensive player. Dirk had better teammates in the NBA, resulting is more success as the #1. Gasol had better teammates in FIBA, resulting in more success as the #1.

With all this said, I'd take Dirk as well (as I said here more than once). I just don't think the difference is huge.

Dirk is pretty much in that Clyde Drexler category

Maybe. I saw Drexler play... I'm not sure, but it's not out of the question.

we surely do agree that Drexler is top 30 at the very least.

We don't. He is borderline top 30, but I'd put him a bit lower.

vert48

12-21-2009, 07:01 PM

I have only his top 10 (now top 11) at hand. When the book came out it was:

10. Hakeem Olajuwon
09. Oscar Robertson
08. Jerry West
07. Tim Duncan
06. Wilt Chamberlain
05. Larry Bird
04. Magic Johnson
03. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
02. Bill Russell
01. Michael Jordan

And Shaq was at #12 and Kobe at #15. Simmons wrote a few weeks ago that he puts Kobe at #9 now and is thinking of pushing Shaq a bit down.Interesting. Simmons said last year at the All-Star break that Kobe would be top 10 if he won the title that year. He assumed either the Cavs or Celtics would beat the Lakers without Bynum at full strength, but then had to make good on his quote after people called him on it when the book came out.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 07:08 PM

Interesting. Simmons said last year at the All-Star break that Kobe would be top 10 if he won the title that year. He assumed either the Cavs or Celtics would beat the Lakers without Bynum at full strength, but then had to make good on his quote after people called him on it when the book came out.

I still don't get it though. Shaq won 4, Kobe won 4. Shaq was the most important player in 3 out of those 4, yet Shaq is #12 and slipping. While he was also more dominant in his prime than Kobe ever was (or ever will be).

I can see why someone would have Kobe ahead of Shaq if #24 wins a few more rings, but right now?

It makes no sense to me.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 07:10 PM

Noone argued otherwise, I have certainly not. Dirk is the better offensive player, yes. And Gasol is the better defensive player. Dirk had better teammates in the NBA, resulting is more success as the #1. Gasol had better teammates in FIBA, resulting in more success as the #1.

With all this said, I'd take Dirk as well (as I said here more than once). I just don't think the difference is huge.

that makes it sound like teammates are the only relevant factor, ignoring that Dirk has played much better than Gasol throughout their respective careers, regular season, playoffs and also head-to-head matchups.

As long as Gasol does not win as a #1 option in the NBA there will never be an argument for him over Dirk.

We don't. He is borderline top 30, but I'd put him a bit lower.

Then I'd certainly like to see your list, or at least a selection of non-obvious choices you'd rank over Clyde and Dirk.

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 07:11 PM

He changed it two times since the book got published. Moved Shaq futher down and Kobe up for example. He should have wated a few more years until Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Iverson et al. retire to be able to make better, longer-lasting standings.

If he did that he would never be able to write that section of the book because there are always going to be great young players. If he waited for those careers to end he would still have to rate Lebron, Wade, Howard, Paul, and some younger players, like a Durant or Rose, will insert themselves into the conversation.

He moved Shaq down one spot because Kobe moved up to #8.

Simmons said last year at the All-Star break that Kobe would be top 10 if he won the title that year. He assumed either the Cavs or Celtics would beat the Lakers without Bynum at full strength, but then had to make good on his quote after people called him on it when the book came out.

He wrote the rankings section before the playoffs were over. In the epilogue he said Kobe moved up to #8.

Dirk is pretty much in that Clyde Drexler category or even higher, depends on how much value his MVP and leading the league in PER twice. And we surely do agree that Drexler is top 30 at the very least.

Drexler is usually around 40th. Dirk probably is ahead of him and top 40 but top 30 is a stretch, although he may get there by the time he retires. To be top 25-30 he would have to be considered as good and accomplished as players like Jason Kidd, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, David Robinson, and Kevin Garnett to name some recent players around 25th place on most lists.

Then I'd certainly like to see your list, or at least a selection of non-obvious choices you'd rank over Clyde and Dirk

Me too. He has said Gasol is close to players like Dirk and Pippen. That begs the question: where does he have Gasol? Top 50? Top 60 all-time? Top 75? Does he think Gasol is better than someone like Chris Webber?

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 07:16 PM

As long as Gasol does not win as a #1 option in the NBA there will never be an argument for him over Dirk.

OK. But why are you saying this again? I've just said one more time I'd also take Dirk. What else do you want to hear? Should I take him twice?

Then I'd certainly like to see your list, or at least a selection of non-obvious choices you'd rank over Clyde and Dirk.

Someday I may do that list. I'm not keen on such lists though as I have tiers. I'm telling you the first two tiers:

1st tier
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Kareem

2nd tier
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Oscar
West

That's a dozen guys there. In my next tier are around 15 players. Barkley, Isiah, Stockton, Malone, Robinson, etc.

Drexler is in tier 4. Borderline 30.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 07:18 PM

Drexler is usually around 40th. Dirk probably is ahead of him and top 40 but top 30 is a stretch, although he may get there by the time he retires. To be top 25-30 he would have to be considered as good and accomplished as players like Jason Kidd, Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, David Robinson, and Kevin Garnett to name some recent players around 25th place on most lists.

Is Dirk any less accomplished than Kidd, Pippen, Stockton, DRob and Garnett?

btw, on that list (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766) Drexler is at #27

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 07:20 PM

That begs the question: where does he have Gasol? Top 50? Top 60 all-time? Top 75?

Top 100.

Where he will end up depends a lot on how much he is going to win. I doubt he will ever reach top 50 though. He is not that good.

But let's not act like the difference is HUGE with a player being top 40 or top 70 on an all time list. There are like 450 players on the teams each year and we are talking about all time. If a player is top 40 or top 70 all time it means only a few places in their current rankings.

Like Dirk is a top 5 player now and Gasol is a borderline top 10 player now. Over the course of a career it will easily translate as the difference between, say, to 35 and top 75.

Let's not act as if these differences were so immense. They are not.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 07:23 PM

That's a dozen guys there. In my next tier are around 15 players. Barkley, Isiah, Stockton, Malone, Robinson, etc.

Drexler is in tier 4. Borderline 30.

okay, though I do think Dirk and Drexler belong in that same tier, albeit on the bottom end. All those players except Isiah lead their team to the finals as the best player, put up great stats in the process and won MVPs (except Stockton). Dirk basically is Malone, only a more clutch but less prolific as a scorer.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 07:30 PM

I do think Dirk and Drexler belong in that same tier

Yes, me too. And Nash is also there, as is Kidd or Iverson. In that tier, there are at least 20 guys, and it is actually pretty tough ranking them. Ranking players 1 thru 25 is a lot easier than doing a 26 thru 50

Both lists will be arguable, but you will have a tougher time creating the second list.

Brunch@Five

12-21-2009, 07:33 PM

Yes, me too. And Nash is also there, as is Kidd or Iverson. In that tier, there are at least 20 guys, and it is actually pretty tough ranking them. Ranking players 1 thru 25 is a lot easier than doing a 26 thru 50

Both lists will be arguable, but you will have a tougher time creating the second list.

If you have 12 players in tier 1 and 2 combined, plus 20 players in tier 3, which include Dirk and Drexler, that makes both top 32, which is basically where I rank them.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 07:37 PM

If you have 12 players in tier 1 and 2 combined, plus 20 players in tier 3, which include Dirk and Drexler, that makes both top 32, which is basically where I rank them.

But I don't and didn't say that, did I?

Let's take a look at it again:

Tier 1, six players. Tier 2, six players. Tier 3, about 15 players. (Give or take a few). We are somewhere between 25-30 by now.

Drexler is in tier 4. There are about 20 players there. In other words: Drexler is most definitely top 50 and no way better than top 25. Around 35, a bit better a bit worse. Somewhere there. As is Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Dirk.... it's tough.

west

12-21-2009, 07:50 PM

Dirk easily.

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 08:16 PM

Is Dirk any less accomplished than Kidd, Pippen, Stockton, DRob and Garnett?

btw, on that list (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57766) Drexler is at #27

It is debatable but I would say he is slightly less accomplished then those players. Stockton and Kidd are 1-2 in assists all-time and Pippen and Garnett have championships and were elite defenders, perhaps the best at their peaks. Dirk is not far from those guys, though.

Yeah, ISH has him 27th but everywhere else he is around 40th. Slam has him 41st, Simmons has him 43rd and Kalb 49th or 50th (although his book was written in 03' and players who retired around then have moved up on most lists since then). He has a case for top 30, though. Drexler is a good comparison to Dirk. Someone who is around 40th right now but has a case for top 30 and may get there by the time he retires.

But let's not act like the difference is HUGE with a player being top 40 or top 70 on an all time list.

That depends on how you define huge. Is there a big difference between 10th and 20th, i.e. Duncan vs. Malone? Simmons has David Thompson at #70 and Gary Payton at #40. There is a difference but how big it is depends on your definition.

Like Dirk is a top 5 player now and Gasol is a borderline top 10 player now. Over the course of a career it will easily translate as the difference between, say, to 35 and top 75.

A borderline top 10 player at his peak is that high all-time? Dirk is top 5 now and he is past his prime.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 08:31 PM

A borderline top 10 player at his peak is that high all-time?

We don't know yet. He is around top 100 on my list now. In case he wins 3 more titles as the #2 option, top 70 is not out of reach. However, it doesn't make too much sense to rank players below top 25 and it is basically pointless below top 50. The lower you go the less meaning it has and the more personal preference it becomes.

If someone can rank Wilt as #1 or #6 or Shaq #1 and #12... it is not that clear cut then, is it? Jordan had a good 15 years as the consensus #1, and even that will come to an end. It will simply go out of style to have him as the clear cut GOAT.

One may build just as good a case for Kareem or Russell, and one may argue Bird had no worse a prime than Jordan. That's why I think having tiers makes a lot more sense than a rigid ranking.

People usually can't agree where they rank Nash, Paul and Deron this season. They can't agree on LeBron and Kobe, they can't agree on Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan this very year. Yet we try acting as if we knew how to properly rank people on all time lists, with all the different eras and situations.

I shouldn't be ranking Wilt, Russell, West and Oscar at all. All I saw is some footage. People not old enough to have been able to see Hakeem's career or Barkley's career should not really comment on their respective level of play all time. Or even if they do, they should be a lot more modest about it than they usually are.

At least that's what I think.

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 09:14 PM

In a way there are tiers. The same players are ranked with each other 90% of the time. Plus, most people switch players a few spots since they are close calls. No one posting a list today will have the same list two months from now, even though the records of the players involved will be the same by then.

Yeah, going beyond top 50 is iffy and that is why it is rarely done. Slam magazine, Kalb in his book, and the NBA itself all used top 50 lists. Simmons and the ISH thread are the only places I have seen people go beyond that.

You are right that the lower you go the harder it is to classify players because criteria becomes more important. For instance, if you don't care about championships then Malone looks a lot better than he does if you do.

People usually can't agree where they rank Nash, Paul and Deron this season. They can't agree on LeBron and Kobe, they can't agree on Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan this very year.

They are in tiers too. Only three PG's are in the best PG discussion and only two players are in the best player discussion right now, given the subpar season Wade has had thus far.

I shouldn't be ranking Wilt, Russell, West and Oscar at all. All I saw is some footage. People not old enough to have been able to see Hakeem's career or Barkley's career should not really comment on their respective level of play all time.

So why do you rank players you never saw contemporaneously? A good starting point would be to practice what you preach. :confusedshrug: People get ranked all the time in every sport (not to mention the same thing happens outside of sports, i.e. greatest presidents or greatest generals). There is a reason for it. Do you really think only basketball fans do this? Go to a NFL forum and post a thread asking who the best QB ever is or a NASCAR forum and ask who the best driver ever is and you will see a lengthy discussion. How many of those people saw Unitas play or Petty race? Here we have 95% of posters declaring Jordan the GOAT. How many saw Wilt, Russell, or prime Kareem? Maybe a handful of posters. For sure no one here saw the 50's players. Most here probably didn't see prime Bird either.

Edit: Here is a thread ranking a rap producer in the OTC sub-forum. It is up to four pages already. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157601

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 09:38 PM

So why do you rank players you never saw contemporaneously?

I don't.
Have you ever seen me doing an all time list? I have tiers and I usually add the 'since 1980' disclaimer.

People get ranked all the time in every sport

I know. And it makes no sense comparing Maradona with Pel

Roundball_Rock

12-21-2009, 09:52 PM

I don't.
Have you ever seen me doing an all time list? I have tiers and I usually add the 'since 1980' disclaimer.

In this thread you said Dirk is top 40 all-time. Surely you didn't mean top 40 since 1980.

I know the reason. People want clear instructions as to what to think, and a rigid ranking system is clear enough. It is simple enough, too. Besides, people also love arguing about rankings. The result is not as important as the process of arguing over the list and the need to 'be right' all the time.

You oppose threads on all-time rankings yet posted a thread about teams, players of the decade? There is no substantive difference. Both threads will trigger the same type of talk.

elementally morale

12-21-2009, 10:04 PM

In this thread you said Dirk is top 40 all-time. Surely you didn't mean top 40 since 1980.

And at the same time I also said these lists are not to be taken that seriously. Sure, you can give a ranking to Dirk... so? Does it really matter if he is #32 or #39? Not for me. If you read the things I've said here (and elsewhere), I suggest you guys don't make that big a deal out of a few ppg or % difference. It also makes no sense dying arguing whether Nash or Kidd was better, or if Pippen was top 30 for that matter. If he was to you, great.

You oppose threads on all-time rankings yet posted a thread about teams, players of the decade? There is no substantive difference. Both threads will trigger the same type of talk.

Not really. That is a pretty long and well-written article by a senior NBA-writer. I thought it was worth sharing, but you didn't see me there arguing e.g. the Lakers vs. the Spurs, did you?

On a final note, let me ask you if you are not getting tired by arguing only for the sake of arguing. Because if the only thing you want is people saying 'Wow, RR is right', then you can save the effort. Just say yes, and I will tell in bold capitals that you are right.

We got a deal?

#1SportsFan86

12-22-2009, 04:12 AM

gxL

12-22-2009, 04:29 AM

pau has the ring

Brunch@Five

12-22-2009, 04:55 AM

But I don't and didn't say that, did I?

Let's take a look at it again:

Tier 1, six players. Tier 2, six players. Tier 3, about 15 players. (Give or take a few). We are somewhere between 25-30 by now.

Drexler is in tier 4. There are about 20 players there. In other words: Drexler is most definitely top 50 and no way better than top 25. Around 35, a bit better a bit worse. Somewhere there. As is Iverson, Kidd, Nash, Dirk.... it's tough.

Okay, either you misinterpreted my post or I misunderstood your "Yes, me too. ".
Anyways, I don't see how both Drexler and Dirk are a tier below guys like DRob or Karl Malone. They didn't accomplish anything that Dirk has not, they had better stats but were either considerably worse in the playoffs (DRob) or in clutch situations (Malone).

Brunch@Five

12-22-2009, 05:01 AM

Who are the teammates, and yes it matters.

For example, if both were going to be given Vince Carter to work with, I'll take Gasol since I know I can count on him playing defense and rebounding, other ways of impacting the game and I know Dirk won't be able to do that. If both were going to work with Kendrick Perkins, I'll take Dirk because I know Perkins can do all the dirty work for Dirk, and Dirk can sit back and score all the points. It's as simple as that.

You do know that Pau and Dirk basically have identical rebounding numbers for their career? Except in the playoffs, where Dirk outperforms Gasol by a good margin.

Also, just look at how great Dirk is at playing pick&roll with Jason Terry, now imagine that with a Vince Carter type, who not only is a great shooter like JET, but also a great slasher. Dirk works well with ANY other type of star player. High-Low with Dwight and Dirk? Please. Gasol wouldn't compare.

RaptorFan

12-22-2009, 05:33 PM

Dirk is absolutely useless on D. He's overhyped bigtime!!

Pau is better at everything other than the 3.

Lebron23

12-22-2009, 06:00 PM

Dirk is the better player today, and he has a better NBA Career than Pau Gasol.

Dirk is absolutely useless on D. He's overhyped bigtime!!

Pau is better at everything other than the 3.

Dirk is the greatest European player in NBA History. Dirk would win an NBA title if you pair him with LeBron, Kobe, and Wade.

Lebron23

06-13-2010, 09:55 PM

Give me Dirk Nowitzki.

Former NBA League MVP
Led his team in the 2006 NBA Finals
His team never missed the playoffs.

kentatm

05-05-2011, 12:42 PM

http://scienceanddimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pau-gasol-dirk-nowitzki-514.jpg

ImmortalNemesis

05-05-2011, 12:44 PM

Good bump. I've always thought Pau was severely overrated. Give me Dirk 8/10 times.

Some of these replies are hilariously funny.

stephanieg

05-05-2011, 12:44 PM

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3119/3125085893_1675f50de7.jpg

DMAVS41

05-05-2011, 12:49 PM

Gasol is a hall of famer and a great player, but he's not on Dirk's level. Dirk is a top 25 player of all time when his career is over....maybe top 20 if he plays a long time.

Gasol just isn't in his class as a player overall. Not a knock against Gasol, just speaks to how good Dirk has been up to this point in his career.

magnax1

05-05-2011, 01:16 PM

Great bump. It's pretty funny how over rated Pau was at one point, though I'd say the same about Dirk at one point too.

ronniec

05-05-2011, 03:17 PM

Dirk, always.

knickswin

05-05-2011, 05:15 PM

I've never understood the Pau infatuation.

It's like, I'll watch a whole game, hardly notice he was in it and then after the game hear about how great he was because he put 17/12 or something like that. I just see him as the best piece by a small margin of the Gasol/Bynum/Odom machine. He almost never dominates or takes over games.

jb220

05-05-2011, 05:19 PM

damn this is a good comparison... u got two.. great... eurofaags...

one one hand u got pau gasol... or how i like to call him.. Pau The Charmin Caveman gasol... he is soft as a babys asss.. he at times can access his spanish passion... when he makes loves... damn he can really get on fuego... he gets his spanish blood boiling and wow... can he please... but really he is a good player.. defintely a hall of famer... best spanish player of all time... but he is soft as shit and he looks like a caveman...

next... u got DIRK the horse faced assassin... he gets shit on alot cuz hes soft... but not in the bedroom haha.. jk.. he is a hard nosed player but he is also ugly as shit haha... hes unstoppable on the offensive side of the ball... but he hooks up with ugly chicks... that sucks... he is a great player... awesome friend...

Jasper

05-05-2011, 05:59 PM

Pau needs to taylor his game after Dirk , including his selection of woman

creepingdeath

05-05-2011, 07:06 PM

Great bump. It's pretty funny how over rated Pau was at one point, though I'd say the same about Dirk at one point too.
Funny, you were one of those people who underrated the sh*t out of Dirk months ago and called Pau at least on par with him.

KingBeasley08

06-13-2011, 10:30 PM

Meticode was wrong big time :applause:

konex

06-13-2011, 11:05 PM

This thread is even more of a joke than it was 2 years ago now lol

Disaprine

06-13-2011, 11:24 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Samurai Swoosh

06-13-2011, 11:28 PM

Eat Like A Bosh

06-21-2011, 07:36 PM

Dirk. Dirk actually proved he can lead a team to the title.
Pau couldn't get it done in Memphis.

R.I.P.

06-21-2011, 08:01 PM

Not many, but he didn't win it. And I feel he never will win it as a #1.

Is that a way to treat a Honorary Ohioan. :lol

ArbitraryWater

02-20-2014, 01:06 PM

mr.big35

02-20-2014, 01:12 PM

Bump :)

"Dirk is better, but I want Gasol on my team" Yea, go ahead and take the INFERIOR PLAYER.

Dumbass logic... never got it, makes 0 sense.

you dig real hard to find this one. current dirk> pau

BoutPractice

02-20-2014, 01:28 PM

The goold old days when most people lived in a parallel universe where Dirk was thought to be about 3 times worse than he was. Before he destroyed the league and reality set in...

ArbitraryWater

02-20-2014, 01:34 PM

you dig real hard to find this one. current dirk> pau

I googled "dirk will never win a ring insidehoops"

to find mustard's thread

moaz

02-20-2014, 01:54 PM

I googled "dirk will never win a ring insidehoops"

to find mustard's thread

Won't help.

There can be only one mustard

ImKobe

02-20-2014, 01:57 PM

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 01:57 PM

Dirk is a top 5 player this year, Gasol is top10. There is the answer: Dirk is better. Speaking of their careers, NBA-wise it's Dirk. In the FIBA compteitions it's Gasol, due to having had a better team. (Both of them play very well at international events.)

This comparison will get worse in the future, because Dirk operates as the #1 and Pau as te #2 option. Not the same roles. Defensively, Pau is better and he is a bit more efficient with the ball. Basketball IQ is high in both instances, slight edge to Gasol.

Still, overall I take Dirk. He is a top50 player of all time for sure. Let's see how he ends his career to get into more details.

Gasol just flat out played better than Dirk almost always in FIBA. He was almost always better, no matter what team he had. From young competitions to senior competitions.

He was always better than Dirk in FIBA individually. So that's just simply NOT A TRUE statement.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 01:59 PM

Pretty good. At Eurobasket:

Gold: 2009
Silver: 1935, 1973, 1983, 1999, 2003, 2007
Bronze: 1991, 2001

Watch the table at the bottom of the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain_national_basketball_team

Spain never won anything before Gasol. What are you talking about? They never won a single gold medal ever before he played for them.

ArbitraryWater

02-20-2014, 01:59 PM

Dirk had a better Playoff run and he's proven to be a consistent winner both in the regular season and in the Playoffs. Pau has won 0 playoff games without Kobe and has been swept 4 times in the first round. I'm taking Dirk.

Nobody answers it anymore, dude. No answer is needed, kid.

Of course you needed to downplay Kobe's help though :oldlol:

Contradictating motha****a. Makes threads about Gasol saving Kobe's ass in the Finals and then shows his true colours

ImKobe

02-20-2014, 02:01 PM

Nobody answers it anymore, dude. No answer is needed, kid.

Of course you needed to downplay Kobe's help though :oldlol:

Contradictating motha****a. Makes threads about Gasol saving Kobe's ass in the Finals and then shows his true colours

Didn't know I couldn't express my opinion on a forum :confusedshrug:

There will certainly be a few Pau Gasol fans downplaying Kobe and trying to make a case for him, I mean, the man does have 2 championships, in which he played a big part in. What's with the hostility, bro?

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 02:06 PM

Wow. You sure as hell don't know much about Euro ball to make an asinine comparison like that. Do you know just how weak basketball is in Germany? Frigging handball is more popular. It was a major accomplishment for Dirk to just lead them to an Olympics berth.

Again this is USA NBA only fan and sports media myths.

Basketball is #2 most popular team sport in Germany currently. The German basketball league is extremely popular. It has big arenas and basically every single game is a sellout.

All the big football clubs are trying to build big basketball sections, and Bayern Munich already has one and they are building a big new arena.

Alba in Berlin is a hugely popular club there in Berlin and has a damn nice arena. The club has a huge following there. In the region where Dirk came from, there are about 3-4 clubs that sellout every single game..........

It's complete BULLSHIT from the USA that basketball does not do well in Germany. Because it's doing FANTASTIC in Germany.

By all accounts, it's the #1 country in Europe economically for basketball.

It's just this whole myth of NBA marketing built around Dirk that is all part of these bullshit legends and story telling that NBA creates and that NBA only fans like to listen to.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 02:10 PM

Dirk has easily played better in most FIBA competitions. Pau isn't even demanding half the defensive attention Dirk is, be it FIBA or NBA games.

You have not watched any of those FIBA games. That is a guaranteed fact.

tpols

02-20-2014, 02:11 PM

Gasol just flat played better than Dirk almost always in FIBA. He was almost always better, no matter what team he had. From young competitions to senior competitions.

He was always better than Dirk in FIBA individually. So that's just simply NOT A TRUE statement.

What about in the NBA though? Dirk clearly has more playoff success and much better numbers.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 02:17 PM

What about in the NBA though? Dirk clearly has more playoff success and much better numbers.

I didn't say I think Gasol is better than Dirk. I do think Dirk is better than Gasol. But some people were just making up nonsense on the argument side for Dirk.

Dirk was never as good as Pau in FIBA, and it was not because of his team. I was just disputing what were basically troll claims.

BoutPractice

02-20-2014, 02:21 PM

Rooster

02-20-2014, 02:24 PM

What about in the NBA though? Dirk clearly has more playoff success and much better numbers.

If Germany has more NBA players like Spain has, Dirk would achieve same result and then some in FIBA like Pau . Too bad He was playing with the Caveman, naturalized scrub and 9 custodians,

creepingdeath

02-20-2014, 02:27 PM

What about in the NBA though? Dirk clearly has more playoff success and much better numbers.
Dude is talking out of his ass, anyway. I bolded Nowitzki's numbers.

2001: 28.7/9.1/1.9 vs 17.3/9.7/0.9
2002: 24/8.2/2.7 vs 19.1/7.8/2.4
2003: 22,5/6,2/1 vs 25.8/7.5/0.8
2006: 23.2/9.2/2.8 vs 21.2/9.4/1.4
2007: 24/8.7/1.6 vs 18.8/7/2.2
2008: 17/8.4/0.6 vs. 19.6/7/1.7
2011: 19.5/6.6/1.4 vs 20.1/8.3/1.7

And Dirk's teams have always been way, way worse than Gasol's. He managed to carry the team to victories over Spain in 2002 and 2005, and both times Spain was the clear favorite - in 2005, everybody expected them to win even without Gasol. :roll:

Rooster

02-20-2014, 02:28 PM

Putting everything together Pau was probably the FIBA player of the decade.But what Dirk achieved there was incredibly impressive considering his squad (a common theme in his career)... logically he should have never even sniffed a medal with that talent level around him.

This . :applause:

even if Dirk won a Eurbasket, is just a blip on radar screen when you compare his NBA ring. Pau can't do what Dirk did on the highest level.

Mr. Jabbar

02-20-2014, 02:31 PM

did this thread rlly happen? somebody wake me up

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 02:44 PM

Dirk was never as good as Pau in FIBA, and it was not because of his team. I was just disputing what were basically troll claims.

:roll:

So we can assume that Pau could've carried those German scrub teams to medals, too? Can you imagine young Dirk playing with those Spanish squads? Come on, you've never actually watched a single FIBA game.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

02-20-2014, 02:55 PM

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 03:28 PM

Again this is USA NBA only fan and sports media myths.

Basketball is #2 most popular team sport in Germany currently. The German basketball league is extremely popular. It has big arenas and basically every single game is a sellout.

Are you kidding me? Extremely popular? Big arenas? Every game a sellout? Now the last time I've checked my ID it looked like I'm actually German, so let's talk about reality instead of your made up bullshit for a moment.

Here are some BBL numbers for the 2012/2013 season.
http://statistik.basketball-bundesliga.de/beko-bbl/statistik/zuschauer.php

average arena capacity: 5.148
average attendance: 4.435
percentage of seats sold: 86.1%

Yeah, about 4500 people are watching the BBL live on average. To put this into perspective, that's about the same as the Handball bundesliga (around 4500 per game).

And here are TV ratings for basketball in Germany. The games are indicated below the diagram. The black lines are viewers starting at three years old, red are 14-49 years old. The numbers on the Y-axis are millions. Yeah, a few hundred thousand people are watching the BBL at best. Some more with Alba-Bayern, but still completely irrelevant. And for other teams, nobody gives a f*ck at all.

http://www.quotenmeter.de/ratings/special/2013/bekobbl_2013_reichweiten.gif

Also...
DHB (German Handball Association): 4.500 registered clubs, 800.000 members
DBB (German Basketball Association): 2000 registered clubs, 200.000 members

Basically, handball is much better organized than basketball. More teams, more leagues, better youth system. Just all around better to play competitively. You can play handball pretty much everywhere on multiple levels of competition. Basketball? Not easy at all. Bball extremely popular? Not in the country called Germany where I grew up. Maybe Euroleague is talking about another Germany?

So...you're completely clueless as usual. If you've never heard of handball, feel free to ask :cheers:

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 06:01 PM

Here are the huge BBL arenas Euroleague is talking about...

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/fotos/galerien/1374061044.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/fotos/galerien/1374061043.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/fotos/galerien/1374061040.jpg

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/fotos/galerien/1374061046.jpg

Lol@basketball being extremely popular over here. Half of the current teams wouldn't even be allowed to play in the Spanish ACB because their arenas are too small.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 06:06 PM

:roll:

So we can assume that Pau could've carried those German scrub teams to medals, too? Can you imagine young Dirk playing with those Spanish squads? Come on, you've never actually watched a single FIBA game.

You don't even know what FIBA is.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 06:08 PM

Putting everything together Pau was probably the FIBA player of the decade.But what Dirk achieved there was incredibly impressive considering his squad (a common theme in his career)... logically he should have never even sniffed a medal with that talent level around him.

Funny, because according to this forum Spanoulis is the worst player in history and he won more medals with Greece..........

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 06:10 PM

You don't even know what FIBA is.

Oh you can do better than that. I mean at least you've tried with your nonsense about German basketball. Exactly what I'd expect from a redneck who doesn't even get to watch BBL games, but you've tried :cheers:

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 06:10 PM

Dude is talking out of his ass, anyway. I bolded Nowitzki's numbers.

2001: 28.7/9.1/1.9 vs 17.3/9.7/0.9
2002: 24/8.2/2.7 vs 19.1/7.8/2.4
2003: 22,5/6,2/1 vs 25.8/7.5/0.8
2006: 23.2/9.2/2.8 vs 21.2/9.4/1.4
2007: 24/8.7/1.6 vs 18.8/7/2.2
2008: 17/8.4/0.6 vs. 19.6/7/1.7
2011: 19.5/6.6/1.4 vs 20.1/8.3/1.7

And Dirk's teams have always been way, way worse than Gasol's. He managed to carry the team to victories over Spain in 2002 and 2005, and both times Spain was the clear favorite - in 2005, everybody expected them to win even without Gasol. :roll:

Dirk played absolutely awful in every single tournament from 2007 onwards. In fact, in recent years, Germany even had gotten a hell of a lot better once he was off the national team.

You are definitely trolling.

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 06:13 PM

Are you kidding me? Extremely popular? Big arenas? Every game a sellout? Now the last time I've checked my ID it looked like I'm actually German, so let's talk about reality instead of your made up bullshit for a moment.

Here are some BBL numbers for the 2012/2013 season.
http://statistik.basketball-bundesliga.de/beko-bbl/statistik/zuschauer.php

average arena capacity: 5.148
average attendance: 4.435
percentage of seats sold: 86.1%

Yeah, about 4500 people are watching the BBL live on average. To put this into perspective, that's about the same as the Handball bundesliga (around 4500 per game).

And here are TV ratings for basketball in Germany. The games are indicated below the diagram. The black lines are viewers starting at three years old, red are 14-49 years old. The numbers on the Y-axis are millions. Yeah, a few hundred thousand people are watching the BBL at best. Some more with Alba-Bayern, but still completely irrelevant. And for other teams, nobody gives a f*ck at all.

http://www.quotenmeter.de/ratings/special/2013/bekobbl_2013_reichweiten.gif

Also...
DHB (German Handball Association): 4.500 registered clubs, 800.000 members
DBB (German Basketball Association): 2000 registered clubs, 200.000 members

Basically, handball is much better organized than basketball. More teams, more leagues, better youth system. Just all around better to play competitively. You can play handball pretty much everywhere on multiple levels of competition. Basketball? Not easy at all. Bball extremely popular? Not in the country called Germany where I grew up. Maybe Euroleague is talking about another Germany?

So...you're completely clueless as usual. If you've never heard of handball, feel free to ask :cheers:

You are not German. You are an American. Probably some army brat. You could not be any more OBVIOUS if you tried.

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 06:17 PM

You are not German. You are an American. Probably some army brat.

I take that as you being unable to say anything against official attendance numbers, TV ratings and member statistics of two major German sports associations? In other words...you're admitting that you're full of shit, completely clueless about foreign basketball and pulling random made up crap about German basketball out of your ass? Good to know.

We can do this in my first language instead if you want btw...if you wanna see whether I'm speaking German like an army brat, lol...

:cheers:

Euroleague

02-20-2014, 06:34 PM

I take that as you being unable to say anything against official attendance numbers, TV ratings and member statistics of two major German sports associations? In other words...you're admitting that you're full of shit, completely clueless about foreign basketball and pulling random made up crap about German basketball out of your ass? Good to know.

We can do this in my first language instead if you want btw...if you wanna see whether I'm speaking German like an army brat, lol...

:cheers:

German basketball league is officially the #1 domestic basketball league in Europe economically. That's a fact.

You are outright LYING.

And you are CLEARLY an American. If you are in Germany, you are a transplant, just like millions of other Americans that live in Germany.

You have absolutely ZERO tact.

dr.hee

02-20-2014, 06:52 PM

German basketball league is officially the #1 domestic basketball league in Europe economically. That's a fact.

You are outright LYING.

And you are CLEARLY an American. If you are in Germany, you are a transplant, just like millions of other Americans that live in Germany.

You have absolutely ZERO tact.

Hold on...

You've claimed it's the second most popular team sport in Germany. Which it isn't. Handball is. Then you've claimed basketball is extremely popular, almost every game sold out and the arenas huge. Wrong, as I've shown the average attendance is at about 4.500 people per game with TV games attracting not more than a few hundred thousand watchers.

So it looks like you were either flat out lying or clueless as f*ck. Either way...you're unable to say anything against the facts I've provided? Good. :cheers:

And why do you think I'm not German? I'd write in my mother language, but I figure since you're struggling with English as it is, it would probably make your head explode.

You have no tact you sick human. Reported to abuse for racism.