Insider: Who's better Kobe vs Lebron

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Kobe vs. LeBron: Who's better?
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Thorpe By David Thorpe
Scouts Inc.
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Kobe Bryant/LeBron JamesNoah Graham/NBAE/Getty ImagesBefore Kobe and LeBron go head-to-head, we pit them together in eight categories. Who will win?

Kobe Bryant and LeBron James square off on Christmas Day (ABC, 5 p.m. ET) for the second consecutive season. So it's time to address the most frequently asked question in the NBA: Who's better, Black Mamba or King James?

Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best.

My task is to deliver a verdict using statistics and on-the-court evidence. I'm using eight categories to compare these two heavyweights, and we're scoring it like a championship fight. The winner of each category gets 10 points, with the loser getting a minimum of seven. After eight rounds, we'll tally the score to see who is the best player in basketball today. Remember, it's not about the past few years or the next few. It's what we see right now.
Category No. 1: Perimeter shooting

Kobe often is regarded as one of the best jump shooters in the NBA. Although he often shoots it a little flat (something he acknowledges) or falling backward (even when the defense doesn't force that type of shot), he has developed an excellent stroke with better arc. Meanwhile, LeBron has vastly improved his own shooting form, getting an excellent follow-through and better balance on most of his shots.

Kobe's shot selection in the halfcourt is noteworthy; he takes most of his shots inside of 17 feet and beyond the arc. This is a smart strategy, especially because he's shooting worse than 40 percent on long 2s. His short-range jumper has been on target (better than 50 percent accurate), but he's struggling from the 3-point line (29 percent).

LeBron, on the other hand, settles for too many long 2s -- they account for almost half of his attempted jumpers. He makes these shots more than Kobe and is making almost 40 percent of his 3s, but that success causes him to rely on his outside shot a little more than he should.

In the end, I like Kobe's shot selection better, but LeBron overcomes that with a higher percentage of makes overall. As surprising as it may sound, King James is the better perimeter shooter right now.

LeBron 10, Kobe 9

Category No. 2: Pure scoring

Pure scorers can get buckets from anywhere and against any kind of defense, even in crunch time. They also get to the free throw line a lot. Kobe and LeBron are obviously as good as any who have ever played.

The best scorers attack the paint effectively so they have options on nights when their jump shots aren't falling. LeBron gets to the paint with his size, quickness and ball skills as well as his ability to move without the ball. He's also a strong finisher. Now that he's shooting a career-best from 3, defenses must pick their poison.

[+] EnlargeKobe Bryant
Lisa Blumenfeld/Getty ImagesKobe's doin' work in the post. LeBron not so much.

The same can be said about Kobe, who punishes defenders with his will to dominate. He's getting about 32 percent of his shots off post-ups (about four times as many as LeBron) while still being a dribble-drive threat and a good cutter. In fact, more than 60 percent of his shots are generated from cutting, driving or posting. (Meanwhile, 60 percent of LeBron's shots are jumpers.)

Both players are great ball handlers, too, which allows them to be prolific scorers without hurting their team by committing turnovers. Kobe is a little more reliable in this area. He's also a better free throw shooter, although LeBron gets to the line more often -- he's scoring more than seven points per game from the stripe.

This is the closest category, as LeBron is also a brilliant scoring machine. I give Kobe the slightest edge because of his wide variety of weapons -- moving without the ball, using ball screens, posting up, utilizing shot fakes to throw defenders off balance, honing his triple-threat game and twisting around and through multiple defenders. Kobe is a master at every scoring maneuver.

Kobe 10, LeBron 9

Category No. 3: Making teammates better

This might be the easiest category in which to see a clear separation between the two. LeBron is, simply put, the best passing guard/wing since Magic Johnson. He's terrific with the active dribble in isolation or off ball screens, and he's even better before he uses his dribble, reading and reacting to shifts by the defense in preparation for his drives. This creates easy buckets for guys who normally would have a tough time scoring. Most importantly, he'll make the key pass at any part of the game, including end-of-game scenarios.

Kobe is an amazing passer, too. He has great anticipation in the halfcourt. My favorite play of his is when he dribble-drives or posts up to draw the opponent's center or power forward to take just a step or two toward him. When that happens, the Lakers big who becomes open, typically Andrew Bynum or Pau Gasol, runs straight to the rim to catch the perfect lob pass from Kobe. It's a devastating play, one that keeps the defending bigs in constant purgatory.

The one fair knock on Kobe is his desire to keep the ball instead of moving it. That he has such great talent around him only exacerbates the problem. He's still a great passer, but he's not on LeBron's level.

LeBron 10, Kobe 8

Category No. 4: Primary defender

An athletic freak entering his prime, LeBron is more active when defending the primary action. He applies far more ball pressure than Kobe and generally is more aggressive with his quick feet. But he does this at some risk to the Cavs' defense, sometimes not forcing his man in any direction because he's too caught up in the one-on-one battle or getting beat to the middle by using poor close-out techniques. However, with LeBron, it's a worthwhile risk. His sheer size and physical gifts create havoc for the player with the ball, often resulting in a forced shot or a turnover.

[+] EnlargeBryant/James
Jeff Lewis/Icon SMILBJ's size and quickness make him a great defender.

Kobe, on the other hand, currently reminds me of the smartest and most veteran player in a very competitive pickup game. He's efficient with his movements, and his technique is the best in the league. The Lakers want him to play the top side on every wing catch, keeping the ball on one side of the floor. It's textbook strategy employed by most good defensive teams.

Kobe does not worry much about getting to the baseline slower because he often has two 7-footers available as helpers, and the baseline serves as an extra defender. He also often guards the least threatening offensive wing in the first half and plays off him (see secondary defender breakdown), allowing his man room to shoot or make a play. A defense aims to force the opponent into taking the worst shot possible, and inviting its poorest offensive guard to shoot or drive is an excellent result. So Kobe's actions are in line with the team's strategies.

I have no doubt that in five to seven years, LeBron will play exactly how Kobe is playing now. And there is currently not much difference between the two in terms of overall results. But years ago, when Kobe was ballhawking a lot more, he was considered one of the top defenders in basketball. That extra pressure makes a difference. LeBron is doing that now, so he takes this category.

LeBron 10, Kobe 9

[glidedrxlr22]

Category No. 5: Secondary defender

Kobe and LeBron both benefit from playing with solid if not excellent defenders who allow them to roam around and muck up the offensive actions of their opponents.

LeBron has a sixth sense for where the ball is headed and will look to cut the action short. And if the offensive player does not account for him, LeBron will go after his shot. He's not blocking as many shots this season, but he still disrupts a lot of plays by adding that one extra defender to the play side of the floor.

But so does Kobe, who seemingly knows what's going to happen before some of the offensive players do. This is due in large part to his now-legendary ability to watch hours of game tape.

Although Kobe sometimes makes the fundamental mistake of turning his back to the guy he's guarding and watching the ball on the opposite wing or post, he always knows exactly where to go when it's time to locate and close out his man. And because he's often guarding the weaker of the other team's guards, he gets to play like a safety in football.

If his man is left open and chooses to shoot the ball, the Lakers call that a "win" on that possession. This also allows Kobe to make plays on the ball, a reason he's stealing the ball at least twice per game. If he does not steal the ball, at least he does what LeBron does so well, which is foul up the primary actions of the opposing offense.

Both players make big impacts on the defensive end, but it's Kobe's ability to turn defense into offense that gives him the edge in this round.

Kobe 10, LeBron 9

Category No. 6: Impact in transition

LeBron and Kobe are two of the finest wing finishers in NBA history, along with Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and James Worthy. But LeBron also resembles Magic Johnson in transition because he often leads the break and pushes the ball down the middle of the court.

[+] EnlargeLeBron James
Allen Einstein/NBAE/Getty ImagesBest to get out of the way when LeBron has a full head of steam.

LeBron is devastating in this area because he typically waits for a crease to open up before exploding through it for the finish and/or foul. He's also a master at waiting for help to arrive to spread out the defense and finding open guys when the defense overcommits to him. Still, he's even better at finishing when he's the guy getting the pass as he fills the lane -- in fact, no player is better at this skill.

Other times, LeBron will pull up and take some long 2s or 3s, sometimes appearing to do so just to get some rest, because the transition game is the one time when he often faces just one defender.

Of course, that's what Kobe has been doing for years. Yes, he'll pull up frequently for jumpers and 3s, but he's always looking to push and attack. He, too, is often the ball handler initiating the break, so he has no problem pushing early and then, if the matchup is right, going right into his post game by backing the defender down.

Being the alert passer that he is, defenders know they can't just sell out to stop him, and this gives him the break he needs. If they close out on him, he'll pop the ball to the open man. However, Kobe forces shots in this part of the game a bit too often, and this, combined with LeBron's ability to rebound and run, gives LBJ the advantage over Kobe in the transition game.

LeBron 10, Kobe 9

Category No. 7: Rebounding

This category clearly favors the bigger, stronger athlete, so LeBron has better overall numbers as expected. He also plays two positions -- small forward and power forward -- that lend themselves to more rebounds, as opposed to Kobe's situation as a shooting guard.

To be fair, it's better to compare them within their positions than against each other. Plus, we have to consider how well their teams rebound, as a coach does not want his guys fighting for boards to the point where they become less effective.

When studying these two, it's surprising to see that Kobe is the better offensive rebounder. He finds a way to get to the middle of the paint on many shots, the best place to pick up long rebounds or fumbled ones. He's also opportunistic inside, slipping past lazy defenders to grab the ball. Among all 2-guards who play at least 24 minutes per game, Kobe has the best offensive-rebound rate in the NBA. The Lakers are not a strong offensive-rebounding team, so Kobe's contributions make a big difference.

LeBron, on the other hand, has little impact on this part of the game, perhaps choosing to save his energy. He has grabbed more than two offensive boards in a game just twice all season. Kobe has done so 10 times.

On the defensive glass, LeBron is not resting. Among starting small forwards, he has the second-best defensive-rebound rate behind Gerald Wallace. Considering that Cleveland is the second-best defensive-rebounding team in the league, that is impressive.

The Lakers are not a strong defensive-rebounding team, and Kobe is just average in this area. Although there should be plenty of rebounds to grab, he falls out of the top 10 for starting shooting guards. There is a mitigating factor here: L.A. ranks second in the league in margin of victory, so Kobe doesn't have the pressure to rebound as often as LeBron.

So even though LeBron's rebounding stats are better than Kobe's, I don't see a difference between the two as it relates to the position they play. I'm calling this one a draw.

LeBron 10, Kobe 10

Category No. 8: Intangibles

[DukeDelonte13]

I think there is even more separation between the two. But that's just my opinion.

[KB2009Champ]

Good post.

Honestly, I think I speak for a large % of laker fans who don't really care if Bron is ranked 1 and Kobe 2nd because either way, both are great players.

[Pursuer]

I don't know how, if he's so smart, he didn't account for Kobe's finger injuries on the perimeter shooting decision.

[White Mamba]

ESPN:oldlol:

You had me at 'Lebron is a better shooter', move along-nothing to see here.

[RaceBannana]

ESPN:oldlol:

You had me at 'Lebron is a better shooter', move along-nothing to see here.

I know the common belief is Kobe>>>>>>Lebron at shooting ... but this season...

[Simple Jack]

ESPN:oldlol:

You had me at 'Lebron is a better shooter', move along-nothing to see here.

What else explains that LeBron takes/makes more 3's than Kobe and at a higher %? I'm interested in hearing how you can argue this fact.

[Brandon Roy]

Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best.

That pretty much sums it up.

[D-Rose]

I know the common belief is Kobe>>>>>>Lebrons at shooting ... but this season...
Mid range this year:

Kobe: 45% 63/141

LBJ: 41% 66/162

Closer than midrange but not in the paint:

Kobe: 50% 88/176

LBJ: 31% 17/55

3-PT Range:

Kobe: 28% (not a part of his game anymore IMO)

LBJ: 37%

(info from nba hotspots)

What's that RocketGreatness aka RaceBannana?

[Kensta]

ESPN:oldlol:

You had me at 'Lebron is a better shooter', move along-nothing to see here.

This year, I agree LeBron is the better shooter. Kobe got him in the mid-range but LeBron is shooting better outside of that. You can say it's because of Kobe's finger or whatever but I agree with Thorpe.

[White Mamba]

This year, I agree LeBron is the better shooter. Kobe got him in the mid-range but LeBron is shooting better outside of that. You can say it's because of Kobe's finger or whatever but I agree with Thorpe.

WHY?

even wade is a better shooter than lebron, a lot of players are.

Bryant was shooting 33% from 3 before the injury than shoot 1-9 @utah and 4-20 for the trip. BUT THAT DOSEN'T MATTER!

he only say it so it goes 77-75 and not 76-76.

[Abraham Lincoln]

But the league has never seen a player like LeBron James.

http://i45.tinypic.com/rj39jq.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/312a73k.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/ipwbcl.jpg

[Younggrease]

http://i45.tinypic.com/rj39jq.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/312a73k.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/ipwbcl.jpg

too bad none of these guys are that similar to Lebron...

[RaceBannana]

Mid range this year:

Kobe: 45% 63/141

LBJ: 41% 66/162

Closer than midrange but not in the paint:

Kobe: 50% 88/176

LBJ: 31% 17/55

3-PT Range:

Kobe: 28% (not a part of his game anymore IMO)

LBJ: 37%

(info from nba hotspots)

What's that RocketGreatness aka RaceBannana?

no, im not "RocketGreatness".

you forgot to bring:

Lebron: 48-130 from 3pt range
Kobe: 37-106 from 3pt range

also, by those numbers you can tell Lebron is taking more shots from the
outside(162 from midrange and 130 from 3pt range) than kobe and he is making them at a higher %.

P.S: Im not a Lebron fan or a Kobe hater, Actually I enjoy Kobe's game more than Lebron, just trying to be objective.

[Simple Jack]

http://i45.tinypic.com/rj39jq.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/312a73k.jpg

http://i47.tinypic.com/ipwbcl.jpg


Those guys were 6'9 270 lbs and were one of the best passers in the league? I was unaware Abe, tell me more!

[shok]

Kobe vs. LeBron: Who's better?
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Thorpe By David Thorpe

Kobe Bryant and LeBron James square off on Christmas Day (ABC, 5 p.m. ET) for the second consecutive season. So it's time to address the most frequently asked question in the NBA: Who's better, Black Mamba or King James?

Did LeBron even play on Christmas last year? I can only think of the memorable Spurs @ Suns game with Mason hitting the game winner and Celtics @ Lakers.

So why should I believe anything he says if he starts his article with misinformation?

But with that said, I pretty much agree with most of what he says, hah.

[madmax]

Those guys were 6'9 270 lbs and were one of the best passers in the league? I was unaware Abe, tell me more!
spot on:lol These guys were great and exceptional for THEIR time, but Lebron is something new and never seen before - I feel privileged to watch such an amazing talent at his peak:applause:

[Abraham Lincoln]

too bad none of these guys are that similar to Lebron...
Yes all 4 were unique players that were physically well built ahead of their time that could:

- handle the ball like a guard
- play a facilitator role
- shoot with respectability from midrange
- penetrate the lane at will
- finish the fast break
- set up the fast break
- play the post (Elgin, Barkley)
- rebound (Elgin, Barkley)

They each had different responsibilites on their team, but physically speaking in terms of unique ability all 4 were indeed similar.



Those guys were 6'9 270 lbs and were one of the best passers in the league? I was unaware Abe, tell me more!

He is not 270, nor is he 6'9 and yes a peak version of Doc and especially Elgin & Barkley were among the top passers of their time as well as all time.

[HighFlyer23]

Those guys were 6'9 270 lbs and were one of the best passers in the league? I was unaware Abe, tell me more!


chuck got him beat in weight tho :lol

[Younggrease]

Yes all 4 were unique players that were physically well built ahead of their time that could:

- handle the ball like a guard
- play a facilitator role
- shoot with respectability from midrange
- penetrate the lane at will
- finish the fast break
- set up the fast break
- play the post (Elgin, Barkley)
- rebound (Elgin, Barkley)

They each had different responsibilites on their team, but physically speaking in terms of unique ability all 4 were indeed similar.




He is not 270, nor is he 6'9 and yes a peak version of Doc and especially Elgin & Barkley were among the top passers of their time as well as all time.

If you want to speak in broad terms, yes they all played basketball and were unique physically.

Lebron has the ability to play the pg, and passes like a pg...Bakley and Dr. J could never do that. Neither could handle like that and neither could shot like Lebron. It doesnt matter what role they were asked to play they couldnt play like Lebron plays. They play totally different styles.


Edit:

Barkley never handled like a guard...he handled like the ball like a big that could handle. Lebron handles like a point guard.

Dr. J never had half as good a handle as Lebron. I dont even think it was good for his time. Lebron is one of the best handling players outside of pgs in the league. He also handles just as good as some pgs.


Lebron played the faciltator role from the pretty much the pg spot, while Barkley was on the post. Thats not similar unless you call Shaq and Nash similar because they both can facilitate

[lefthook00]

Relax everyone, he is talking about THIS SEASON, and LeBron is shooting better than Kobe from outside. It is what it is. But don't be suprised if Kobe raises that 3pt avg. by a LOT by the end of the season.

[Abraham Lincoln]

They play totally different styles. In part LeBron is more wing oriented, but I think they have certain similarities as mentioned. And he could not rebound or play the post nearly like Elgin or Barkley could. He has been misused in the Cavaliers "offense" for some time now as Barkley has mentioned. I did not mean to say they were near identical like that of Jordan & Wade/Bryant. But sometimes his unique talent can be overhyped while other forgotten greats like Elgin are dismissed. I have seen LeBron referred to as "Magic on steroids" before, as an example.


Lebron played the faciltator role from the pretty much the pg spot, while Barkley was on the post. Goes back to team role. With the Sixers I have seen him perfect anything from wing lob entry passes to 1/2 court behind the back pinpoint passes.

[Cermet]

They are both very good. But Lebron is a freak of nature physically I dont know how many steroids does he pump in him self a week but it is sure as hell working. Kobe is a better clutch player than lebron and lebron is a better passer. That I think are the differences that have most distance in these players other are quite the same and as I said Lebron is better physically so overall I would take Lebron as a better player.

[Mor'Fiyah]

*sigh*

Its funny that the one difference between the players comes down to the most subjective analysis of them all - making teammates better.

[Younggrease]

Goes back to team role. With the Sixers I have seen him perfect anything from wing lob entry passes to 1/2 court behind the back pinpoint passes.

so you saying that Chuck could have ran point guard for whole seasons at a time?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not like LeBron, just referring to their passing ability. But he was able to play point forward.

[cotdt]

*sigh*

Its funny that the one difference between the players comes down to the most subjective analysis of them all - making teammates better.

Even by ESPN's own criteria, how can you say that Lebron makes his teammates better? When he does his 1-man-team thing his teammates just stand to the side and get cold. This happened in the Orlando series. Whereas Kobe spends the first half of the game facilitating so that he can get his teammates involved. Kobe never holds the ball for more than 2 seconds just dribbling, something Lebron does all the time. ESPN is too prone to a player's reputation rather than watching the actual game.

And Lebron makes more long 2's than Kobe so he's a better shooter than Kobe now? That's ridiculous. Over half of Lebron's shots are long 2's, that's just a sign of bad shot selection. Everyone knows that long 2's are the lowest percentage shot. Lebron is also not as well guarded as Kobe at the perimeter, his defenders keep more distance between them since they are only concerned about his drives. You can say that Ariza last season was a better shooter than Kobe too, but put Ariza in the same situation as Kobe and now? 38% FG.

Another point. Lebron has the 2nd highest turnover rate in the league, how is he a better passer than Kobe? The assist numbers don't tell the whole story, assists are just proportional to how often you have the ball in your hands. This season Kobe shares the ball more than in past seasons, yet his assist numbers went down.

[elementally morale]

LeBron being the better player is a legit opinion to have, but I hate this scorig system. Especially the part that its almost always 10 vs 9 as in boxing. As if:

a) basketball was an individual, head to head sport
b) you could turn every opinion into a score (10 or 9 of course)

Why not ranking them instead? #1 vs #2 abd then sum and whoever has the lower number wins.

At any rate, it is not the way the public will decide. And certainly not the way I will. The public will go with Kobe this year if nothing changes, that's for sure. And I'll say the same thing I've been saying for quite a while: there is no 'best player'. It depends on the team, the coach, the situation... and you have more than these two candidates. Always wanting to tell who the ultimate, undisputable #1 is at anything is an illness of the western culture.

That being said, thinking LeBron is the best is a valid opinion. Until you don't want to 'prove' it and especialy until you are not dumb enough to believe that you can 'prove' such a thing at all.

[Yung D-Will]

I think there is even more separation between the two. But that's just my opinion.
:rolleyes:

[HylianNightmare]

good read, though i disagree. still a good way to break it down

[samballs]

Good read, but wtf is intangibles and pure scoring doing in the argument. Those can't be measured and why leave out street cred, heart, moxie and all the other crap.

[elementally morale]

good read, though i disagree. still a good way to break it down

The text is kinda allright, but why do you need to give out points at the end of each section? It would work just as well with the text, and then at the end of it all the writer (Thorpe) could have concluded that because of what was written he goes with LeBron.

Thopre knew well at the beginning who he has as a winner, so why pretending he was just giving out points and then points 'gave' a winner. Not true. Thorpe thinks LeBron is better and there is no shame in that.

[Mor'Fiyah]

The text is kinda allright, but why do you need to give out points at the end of each section? It would work just as well with the text, and then at the end of it all the writer (Thorpe) could have concluded that because of what was written he goes with LeBron.

Thopre knew well at the beginning who he has as a winner, so why pretending he was just giving out points and then points 'gave' a winner. Not true. Thorpe thinks LeBron is better and there is no shame in that.

Agreed. He had a subjective opinion... and then passed that subjective opinion off as a point based metric. meh...

[cotdt]

Agreed. He had a subjective opinion... and then passed that subjective opinion off as a point based metric. meh...

I thought it was a well-written article, and a good read. I disagree with the results though. Lebron won because he is a better shooter than Kobe and a better team player? Both of these I answered in my previous post how ridiculous it is, the ball is always in Lebron's hands that's not team basketball.

[elementally morale]

I disagree with the results though.


I have no problem with the results but I don't like the method.

Giving out points at the end of each section makes it look 'more official' and 'objective' but in reality it is nothing more than a #1 and #2 thing (10 points vs. 9 most of the time). If I want to tell you who I think is better than someone else, I don't need such numbers. I need numbers only if I want to prove something... and being the best player in the league cannot be proven.

So basically Thorpe wrote a pretty good article and it was unnecessary to have those points. Should have said he picks LeBron and leave it at that.

[Kellogs4toniee]

As someone who doesn't have insider, thanks for the post man. Was hopin to read it but then saw the insider sign and was like #@@# lol

[quasimoto]

Don't they write this kind of article like every two weeks?

[cotdt]

Don't they write this kind of article like every two weeks?

No, two weeks ago it was Kobe vs. Jordan.

[Twiens]

The better shooter thing killed any point made after that....

[gts]

so he points out lebron makes those around him better but only talks about passing really.. not wanting to take the time to look it up i ask, who on the cavs or lakers is having their best season ever or showing continued growth on the court?

[elementally morale]

so he points out lebron makes those around him better but only talks about passing really

LeBron probably is the better passer of the two, but # of assists is not a good way to show that, as in the triangle assists are well distributed (and low) for any particular player, and Kobe is the leader in that category on the Lakers.

Thorpe prefers LeBron and it's okay with me, but the way he goes after the issue is a bit 'meh'.

[chazzy]

You can't call someone a better jumpshooter based on stats in the first month and a half of the season.. by this measure, Trevor Ariza was the best 3pt shooter in the league since he shot like 48% in the playoffs. Is Lebron a better 3pt shooter than Ray Allen? He's shooting a better percentage so far..

[gts]

LeBron probably is the better passer of the two, but # of assists is not a good way to show that, as in the triangle assists are well distributed (and low) for any particular player, and Kobe is the leader in that category on the Lakers.

Thorpe prefers LeBron and it's okay with me, but the way he goes after the issue is a bit 'meh'.

well you knew which way it would swing that right off the bat when he writes


Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best.

My task is to deliver a verdict using statistics and on-the-court evidence.

he whiffs on "On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."

[rfm767]

The text is kinda allright, but why do you need to give out points at the end of each section? It would work just as well with the text, and then at the end of it all the writer (Thorpe) could have concluded that because of what was written he goes with LeBron.

Thopre knew well at the beginning who he has as a winner, so why pretending he was just giving out points and then points 'gave' a winner. Not true. Thorpe thinks LeBron is better and there is no shame in that.

BINGO.

"oh surprise, Lebon leads by 2 points!" give me a break...

[Mor'Fiyah]

he whiffs on "On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."

The article is well worth it for that little tid bit alone. I often hear Kobe detractors say that its not true that most NBA players think he is the best player on the planet.

[Cermet]

I ****ing hate when people say best player on the planet. Maybe he is the best player in the NBA BUT NOT IN THE f-cking planet. Europe basketeball Euroleague and NBA are very very different so as I said about a million times..
If one player is very good or the best in the NBA it doesnt mean he would be very good or especially the best in the euroleague and vice versa.

[Jello]

I ****ing hate when people say best player on the planet. Maybe he is the best player in the NBA BUT NOT IN THE f-cking planet. Europe basketeball Euroleague and NBA are very very different so as I said about a million times..
If one player is very good or the best in the NBA it doesnt mean he would be very good or especially the best in the euroleague and vice versa.
lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.

[che guevara]

lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.
Wrong. See: Brandon Jennings, Von Wafer.

On topic, I think Lebron is better... but it's close. If Lebron's jumpshot was more consistent (he goes on streaks where he makes like 6 of 7, then misses 7 of 8... it's actually a lot like Shaq's streaky free throw shooting), if he had a reliable post up game that he went to often, and if he didn't make 2 or 3 "WTF are you doing?" decisions per game (Kobe sometimes does this too), I would say that Lebron is easily the best player. He has the tools to be the consensus best player in the game, but he's not there yet.

[phoenix18]

This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"

How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?

Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.

[madmax]

This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"

How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?

Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.

exactly LOL...this cracked me up as well - Kobe close to Bron in transition game?:roll:

[Cermet]

lol I'm sure an average player in the NBA would dominate in the euroleague.

Please dont make a fool out yourself ok...

[elementally morale]

This Article reeks of "these players have to be great at everything because they are the best,etc......"
How do you give Kobe a 9 in transition?
Lebron is a top ten fast break player EVER. Kobe should have gotten a 6 or something.


That's exactly the problem with the point system. You may be right, but for the sake of an argument, let's say that Kobe receives 1 point for the transition game and LeBron 10. Questions:

1) Does LeBron winning it 10 to 1 make him 10 times more efficient in transition? Does it mean Kobe will score 4 transition points a game and LeBron 40?

2) Provided LeBron leads Kobe 10 to 1 in the transition game, and also let's imagine Kobe wins all the other categories... that would still make LeBron the winner in this system, despite him winnin (hypothetically) only that 1 category. It's like saying Howard is a lot better than Nash, because he beats him in rebounding 10 to 1. Howard may be better, but not because of that. (And I don't think he is, but that's a different issue.)


So you made a pretty good point: this system with the constant 10 to 9 results is even more pointless (pun intended).

[Simple Jack]

Even by ESPN's own criteria, how can you say that Lebron makes his teammates better? When he does his 1-man-team thing his teammates just stand to the side and get cold. This happened in the Orlando series. Whereas Kobe spends the first half of the game facilitating so that he can get his teammates involved. Kobe never holds the ball for more than 2 seconds just dribbling, something Lebron does all the time. ESPN is too prone to a player's reputation rather than watching the actual game.

And Lebron makes more long 2's than Kobe so he's a better shooter than Kobe now? That's ridiculous. Over half of Lebron's shots are long 2's, that's just a sign of bad shot selection. Everyone knows that long 2's are the lowest percentage shot. Lebron is also not as well guarded as Kobe at the perimeter, his defenders keep more distance between them since they are only concerned about his drives. You can say that Ariza last season was a better shooter than Kobe too, but put Ariza in the same situation as Kobe and now? 38% FG.

Another point. Lebron has the 2nd highest turnover rate in the league, how is he a better passer than Kobe? The assist numbers don't tell the whole story, assists are just proportional to how often you have the ball in your hands. This season Kobe shares the ball more than in past seasons, yet his assist numbers went down.

Let me get this straight:

He averages more assists than Kobe, and is top 10 in the league, yet he doesn't get his teammates involved.

Then, all he does is stand around dribbling for all of the game (he has possession apparently for 48 minutes) and yet you question why his turnover rate is high. It's .5 higher than Kobe last time I checked, yet he holds the ball on every possession. Doesn't it make sense?

What is your basis behind this being the most Kobe has shared the ball? He's taking MORE shots this season; especially while Gasol was out. Furthermore, while Gasol has been in, Kobe has increased his assists by a considerable amount.

If you don't believe me, check his averages before and after Gasol.

[Doranku]

Never understood this 'making your teammates better' myth. If he makes his teammates better, why ya'll complaining 'bout how he got no help in the Playoffs last year? Isn't he supposed to be making his teammates better? Sure didn't make Mo Williams better. :roll:

[elementally morale]

If he makes his teammates better, why ya'll complaining 'bout how he got no help in the Playoffs last year?


On a rather technical note, if I am making my teammates better (they are not good, but I make them decent) and then I recieve help 'from them'... I can conclude that I helped myself, and the set of teammates was just a middleman.

It is a dangerous way of thinking, but I'm not sure players who are not 'getting it' early in thier careers don't think along the lines presented above. 'Let's make my teammates better so that they can help me more in the end, shall we'.

It is a philosophy that won't get you anywhere. You have to help your teammates but also LET THEM be who they are, so that they can help you via their own strengths and not something you helped them achieve in the first place.

Does it make any sense? I'm not sure... but I understand myself... I think. :oldlol:

[macpierce]

they are both great, but what separates them are championships, and kobe has 4, lebron has 0, the lakers are the favorites to win again this year and maybe even the next

[cotdt]

On a rather technical note, if I am making my teammates better (they are not good, but I make them decent) and then I recieve help 'from them'... I can conclude that I helped myself, and the set of teammates was just a middleman.

It is a dangerous way of thinking, but I'm not sure players who are not 'getting it' early in thier careers don't think along the lines presented above. 'Let's make my teammates better so that they can help me more in the end, shall we'.

It is a philosophy that won't get you anywhere. You have to help your teammates but also LET THEM be who they are, so that they can help you via their own strengths and not something you helped them achieve in the first place.

Does it make any sense? I'm not sure... but I understand myself... I think. :oldlol:

I understand you. The more you give to your teammates, the more you receive back. That's why you gotta help their game in practice and share the ball with them in real games. Players play better when they play with Kobe, like Ariza, Brown, Gasol, etc. Anyone who plays with Kobe sees their FG% go way up.

[Lakers13]

Congrats LeBron, you've been named Best Player by David Thorpe :rockon:

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: @ lebron being a better perimeter shooter.

[Simple Jack]

:oldlol: @ lebron being a better perimeter shooter.

No, he's not a better perimeter shooter this year; he just takes more threes than Kobe, makes more, and at a higher %.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Mor'Fiyah]

So seriously... am I the only one that sees that ...

Being voted #1 unanimously by my peers is >>>>>> than being voted #1 by a few ESPN journalists and a bunch of NBA fans

Just curious.

Does anyone else think Lebron reads that article and just cannot get past the line "Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."?

[Jacks3]

No, he's not a better perimeter shooter this year; he just takes more threes than Kobe, makes more, and at a higher %.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
So? It's been 25 games. It's not a large enough sample size. Kobe has shot better from three every single year. Besides, Kobe is a considerably better FT and mid-range shooter. LBJ being a better shooter than Kobe is laughable. :roll:

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe is the better mid shooter, Lebron is the better player since last year.

[plowking]

Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.

And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.

I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.

[ShaqAttack3234]

As much as I praised Kobe early in the season I don't really like his approach lately. Even with a finger injury he's still taking a ton of shots, he's shooting a lot early in the game and doing that with a ton of scorers on his team, including Bynum who could benefit from some more touches. I did like his approach vs OKC, though. He let his teammates get a lot of touches early and he took over and dominated the game later.

But I have to wonder why he's shooting so much? I'd think it'd be better to be a bit more passive with the nagging injuries. It's a long season, he's had a long career and it wouldn't hurt to get Bynum some more shots. Holding back his scoring a bit helped last season in the long run and that was with less offensive firepower around him.

And this debate is very difficult. Lebron is just so dominant individually as we saw in the 2009 playoffs, but I love Kobe's post game and mid-range game. I'd give Kobe the edge as the scorer, shooter, post player, defender and clutch player. Lebron easily has the edge for rebounding, passing/playmaking and driving to the basket though. Lebron's advantage in those categories is more noticeable than Kobe's in the others(except for post play where he kills Lebron), but it depends what you value more.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.

I can't put Wade top 3 until he starts playing at his '06 or '09 level again, or atleast close. As of now i'd have to put Howard and Paul ahead of him. Durant is having a better season too, but better overall player is up for debate.

[plowking]

I can't put Wade top 3 until he starts playing at his '06 or '09 level again, or atleast close. As of now i'd have to put Howard and Paul ahead of him. Durant is having a better season too, but better overall player is up for debate.

However you put it, I'm not too fussed. Speaking strictly in terms of Kobe and Lebron, its Kobe.

[Bodhi]

For whatever reason Kobe's teammates have career years in FG% when they play with him and LeBron's seem to consistently let him down. And yet when people compare the two, LeBron gets credit for making his teammates better and Kobe gets dinged for having great support.

[dallaslonghorn]

Kobe is better at what he does (scoring 2 guard) then LeBron is at what he does (all-around 3/force in the paint) but what LeBron does is A LOT more valuable than what Kobe does.

Anyone who thinks a 2-guard who shoots outside jump-shots and can guard perimeter players is more valuable to a basketball team than a 3/4 who dominates the lane and can guard 4 positions has a fundamental philosophical disagreement about the game of basketball with me. There's really no point in arguing; we're just watching different games.

[PleezeBelieve]

LeBron shut Evans completely down, a guy Kobe would have major issues with.

I'm not even going to be a d*ck here, but how can anyone give Kobe the edge in scoring and defense?

C'mon, the time has come to accept greatness for what it is. LeBron scores the same ppg average as Kobe on less shots a game. Significantly less.

People need to start using facts, man. I'm sorry, but Durant torches Kobe, gets him foul trouble. Probably could have fouled him out. The next night, LeBron absolutely suffocated Evans in the last three minutes and OT. Kobe defended with bluster and over-exaggerating defensive stances which put him in poor position to react to Durant's shot or dribble drive. LeBron on the other hand, stayed low on Tyreke and gave him space on the dribble that he knew he could make up if Tyreke raised for the jumper.

How does this translate into Kobe being the better defender? Cavs had noone to check Evans. No one. Kobe isn't even their go-to stopper on D.

Kobe better defender than LeBron?

This is prime example of people just making sh*t up.

[Mor'Fiyah]

So seriously... am I the only one that sees that ...

Being voted #1 unanimously by my peers is >>>>>> than being voted #1 by a few ESPN journalists and a bunch of NBA fans

Just curious.

Does anyone else think Lebron reads that article and just cannot get past the line "Advanced stats clearly favor LeBron. On the other hand, NBA players say almost unanimously that Kobe is the game's best."?

All of this bluster and no one can really address this point? If Lebron is obviously better than Kobe then why would the actual players (most of whom are not even friends with Kobe) all pick him as the best player in the game? Wouldn't they have the best perspective on this? Wouldn't they be in the best position to judge? Am I off my rockers for thinking its that simple?

[Allstar24]

Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.
I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion. Because I vaguely remember you saying the exact same thing about LeBron a few weeks ago :confusedshrug:

[The GM]

I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.

[The_Yearning]

I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.

LeBron on the Lakers squad would brake the 72 win mark. That is legit. Kobe on Cleveland would be a 48ish win team. However whose better? Kobe. You a fool if you think LBJ wouldn't be averaging at least 12 ast a game on that LAL team. Prolly a triple double even seeing how Bynum hardly grabs any rebounds.

[sixer6ad]

Kobe is the best player in the world. Comfortably, as well.

And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.

I won't bother arguing the rest, but Kobe once again has proved he's the best in the world, followed by Lebron and then Wade.

You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:

"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that

LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%

And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.

[Mor'Fiyah]

You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:

"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that

LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%

And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.

Ever hear of a dunk? Its a 2 point FG. But its not perimeter shooting. I will let you in on a little secret. Lebron ONLY has a higher percentage from 2 because he has more dunks than Kobe. Kobe shoots better than Lebron everywhere on the court except behind the three point line and right at the rim. People have posted up the breakdown. Lebron is not a better shooter than Kobe any more than he is a better shooter than Ray Allen or Dirk.

[The GM]

LeBron on the Lakers squad would brake the 72 win mark. That is legit. Kobe on Cleveland would be a 48ish win team. However whose better? Kobe. You a fool if you think LBJ wouldn't be averaging at least 12 ast a game on that LAL team. Prolly a triple double even seeing how Bynum hardly grabs any rebounds.

This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.

[Bigsmoke]

I'm sorry but the slobbage ESPN just gave Lebron is ridiculous. Chris Brousarrd or however you spell his name who I "Had" alot of respect for is just suckin Labrizzy's nuts, saying that if they switched teams the Lakers would be close to 70 win's and the Cavs would just be a mere playoff team and wouldn't be competing againts the Magic & Boston's of the world is flat out stupid.. let Lebron grind it out in the west for a season and see how he doesn't look so mighty. Oh yea btw Lebron & Kobe's playmaking ability is alot closer then people think.. watch the game's people, just don't look at stats.

I watch alot of their games and i think Lebron takes over them more effectively than Kobe. Kobe i'll admit has a better shooting touch but Lebron can find other ways to take over. Like someone had mention earlier in this thead, Lebron could guard almost anybody on the court and can play more positions. Kobe to me is an overrated defender.

if you're gonna go by "team succuss" then Kobe's 05-06 season didnt mean anything

[dynasty1978]

This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.


This is the problem with folks who haven't watched the NBA much. 70 win seasons don't grow on trees morons. And the whole switch player X with Y to prove a point is flawed on so many levels, especially when comparing 2 players with different strengths and weaknesses.

[Twiens]

That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.

[ShaqAttack3234]

That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.

Shaq coexisted with Kobe, Penny and Wade for some very successful seasons. Many of them altogether in fact. Shaq is now in his 18th NBA season and only playing 22 mpg. What do you expect him to do?

[Twiens]

Shaq coexisted with Kobe, Penny and Wade for some very successful seasons. Many of them altogether in fact. Shaq is now in his 18th NBA season and only playing 22 mpg. What do you expect him to do?

Well he was 18 and 8 on a ridiculous 61% last year :eek:

[The_Yearning]

That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.

Lmao Shaq wasn't no beast last year...watch a damn basketball game that fat mug is a liability on any team ever since he got traded from Miami.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well he was 18 and 8 on a ridiculous 61% last year :eek:

Yeah, but that was a shocking year considering the injuries and his decline before that plus his minutes have been lowered by 7-8 mpg. I expected more production from Shaq, but I also expected more minutes. Then again when players are in the league as long as Shaq, declines happen very fast.

[w00terz]

How many times can you have the same conversation without it getting boring and unreadable? Apparently infinite.

[Simple Jack]

This is a joke right? his assist yes would probably be up but as proven manny times be4 the West is so far ahead of the East even in the lower half he wouldn't be droppin triple doubles and 50+ on the lower half teams in the west as he does in the east and how does that make any sense if the better player is Kobe but the Lebron james lead lakers would win 72? Kobe would feast on the lower level eastern confrence teams probably more so then Lebron because he has a better jimmy and if his teammates wouldn't get it going he would go off and history tell's us that's a great thing cause they almost always win.

Check conference splits for Kobe. He was playing worse against the East than the West. And those lower level west teams? He has/had 3 of them in his division past few years.

LeBron won 66 games last year with that team. If you don't think 3 all-stars being added to the roster and the GOAT coach would "help" him or the team, I don't know what to tell you.

[DukeDelonte13]

That making teammates better things is also bull****...look at Shaq for example. He was beasting last year with Nash, now looks like **** playing beside the "King." He will never coexist with a great player until he starts believing in ball movement.


The suns made shaq the focal point of their offense and ran everything through him. The cavs play him 20 minutes a games and run everything through Mo/Bron.
:oldlol: at implying that Lebron isn't good a moving the ball, he's only the best passing forward in the league... Go s*ck Kobe's D*ck :oldlol:

[hawksdogsbraves]

I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.

Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.

[dallaslonghorn]

I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.

Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.

It's not even arguable really. Does anyone honestly think Kobe is taking last year's Cavs team to 66 wins w/a supporting cast of Mo Williams, Delonte West and Z? C'mon.

I usually just avoid Kobe v. LeBron threads. Arguing against Kobe fans is like arguing with girls; they don't respond to logic. Far to much of their self-esteem is tied into this NBA player who doesn't care about them.

[rfm767]

I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James. I know that statistics don't count for everything, but Lebron's season last year was better statistically than ANY season Kobe has ever had. Not to mention the fact that Kobe was a horrible teammate when the Lakers were struggling- its easy to come off as a great teammate/leader when you are on the best team in the league. Also you have to keep in mind that Kobe has played nearly his entire career with one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA, while Lebron has Mike Brown who couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.

Lebron>Kobe, its been that way for the past 2-3 years, and if you don't agree then honestly you are a Kobe homer you are not looking at the facts.

I love Kobe but i gotta admit this is a good point. Coaching ability is vastly over-looked when analyzing teams/players by the regular nba fan.

[elementally morale]

I honestly can not believe that any serious educated NBA fan could actually believe that Kobe Bryant is a better basketball player than Lebron James.


Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.

I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.

[LA_Showtime]

lebron's the better player but he has yet to overtake kobe as the face of the nba. you gotta take it from the best; lebron has yet to do it.

[Simple Jack]

Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.

I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.

It's definitely not a sin. When comparing the two though, people often times bring up rings which is an unfair comparison considering the amount of time the two spent so far in the league because at this point, there really isn't much else one could use to argue Kobe over LeBron in my opinon.

Winning rings is a product of a team, not an individual. Does anyone honestly believe KG was better now than he was with the Wolves? No, he was just in a terrible situation that didn't allow him to win a ring. A KG, well removed from his prime was able to win a ring the other year because of the situation he was in, not because he was a better player than in years past.

This is the same idea with LeBron and Kobe. With comparable situations, Kobe didn't make playoffs, and lost twice in the first round while LeBron was in the ECF/Finals playing huge in most of these series'. I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking about the odds of Lakers winning the title now and how confident I am that they will. I THINK they will, but theres a chance they can lose. If LeBron was on the Lakers however, reversing roles with Kobe, I really would have no doubt that they win the title.

My main point is the KG example, take it into consideration when bringing up rings as a compelling argument in comparing two players.

[Bodhi]

Why would more than half of the players in the NBA pick Bryant? They are neither educated nor fans for the most part, but still... and there are some GMs in polls out there taking Bryant as well.

I'm not taking Bryant but is it a sin to have him as #1? I'm not much into this ranking'em head2head thingy, but if anything it should be just like in boxing: You have to beat the champion considerably to become the new champion. LeBron failed to do that in most players' and GMs' eyes. He may have been better but not convincingly enough it seems.

I agree with this. There's a debate for a reason and everyone agrees that Kobe and Lebron are the 1/2 guys in the league. If you can't understand why somebody would have one over the other then you're just not doing a very good job at analyzing the game.

[The GM]

Check conference splits for Kobe. He was playing worse against the East than the West. And those lower level west teams? He has/had 3 of them in his division past few years.

LeBron won 66 games last year with that team. If you don't think 3 all-stars being added to the roster and the GOAT coach would "help" him or the team, I don't know what to tell you.

whoa whoa i never said it wouldn't help Lebron of course it would and that whole "GOAT" ish is overrated everyone knows Kobe is the coach on the court and if he ask's you to do something to do it, you will just for the fact that he knows what he's talking about and knows so much about the game. Now if you think for one second that Kobe would tourch the Knicks, Nets, Pacers, The Bucks, The Bulls, Detriot on a regular basis like Lebron does if not more then idk what to tell you.

[The GM]

It's definitely not a sin. When comparing the two though, people often times bring up rings which is an unfair comparison considering the amount of time the two spent so far in the league because at this point, there really isn't much else one could use to argue Kobe over LeBron in my opinon.

Winning rings is a product of a team, not an individual. Does anyone honestly believe KG was better now than he was against the Wolves? No, he was just in a terrible situation that didn't allow him to win a ring. A KG, well removed from his prime was able to win a ring the other year because of the situation he was in, not because he was a better player than in years past.

This is the same idea with LeBron and Kobe. With comparable situations, Kobe didn't make playoffs, and lost twice in the first round while LeBron was in the ECF/Finals playing huge in most of these series'. I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.

As I'm writing this, I'm thinking about the odds of Lakers winning the title now and how confident I am that they will. I THINK they will, but theres a chance they can lose. If LeBron was on the Lakers however, reversing roles with Kobe, I really would have no doubt that they win the title.
My main point is the KG example, take it into consideration when bringing up rings as a compelling argument in comparing two players.

Why would there be no doubt that with Lebron that they would win a chip? that's a very bold statement basically disrespecting Kobe in the process when they already did win last year with him.

[purple8gold]

Merry Christmas to all! :cheers:

[Simple Jack]

Why would there be no doubt that with Lebron that they would win a chip? that's a very bold statement basically disrespecting Kobe in the process when they already did win last year with him.

Not disrespect, just a testament to LeBron being better in my opinion. There is no doubt because with a very mediocre team, LeBron has continued to bring them farther in the playoffs and has put together success in the regular season that Kobe couldn't do with a comparable team. I mean, if I told you Cavs would win more games than the Lakers last season considering their teams, you would tell me I'm an idiot, as with anyone else who knows about basketball. What LeBron did with that team is extraordinary and its unbelievable they were on pace to tie records like Boston's home record.

I mean, there are definitely variables to consider, but considering that LeBron won more games with A LOT worse of a team talent wise, what's to say he won't do even better with a much more talented team + the GOAT coach?

[sixer6ad]

It's not even arguable really. Does anyone honestly think Kobe is taking last year's Cavs team to 66 wins w/a supporting cast of Mo Williams, Delonte West and Z? C'mon.

I usually just avoid Kobe v. LeBron threads. Arguing against Kobe fans is like arguing with girls; they don't respond to logic. Far to much of their self-esteem is tied into this NBA player who doesn't care about them.

Every once in a while, a post hits it on the head. Thank you for coming up with these words.

[elementally morale]

Every once in a while, a post hits it on the head. Thank you for coming up with these words.

You should tell this to NBA players and GMs. :rockon:

[konex]

I'd like to see what LeBron would do in the WC with Kwame, Smush and Luke in the starting lineup :oldlol:

[plowking]

I'm curious to know how you came to this conclusion. Because I vaguely remember you saying the exact same thing about LeBron a few weeks ago :confusedshrug:

I thought this about Lebron when he put up some great numbers in the playoffs, though Kobe once again, 1 week later in the finals proved to me he's still the best, and has been to this point.

[cotdt]

I find it hard to think anyone would seriously think that Kobe with last years Cavs win 66 games, or that Lakers with LeBron and this current team/GOAT coach wouldn't be a HEAVY favorite to win the title.


Last year's Lakers won 5 more games than the Cavs did, so I don't see why not. In the Lakers system, Lebron would not do as well as Kobe, because the system would not be built around him and Lebron has never played in a distributed offense. Phil Jackson would yell at him when he calls his teammates for an iso play or just dribbles the ball aimlessly for 20 seconds. Lakers' up-tempo offense would be slowed down big time by Lebron. Lebron has never played with a dominant frontline either.

Don't get me wrong Lebron would still do well overall in the Lakers system, but not as well as Kobe. Kind of like how Kobe works better with Shaq than Lebron, it's just his skillset matches better.

[JustSaying]

By Chris Bernucca
ProBasketballNews.com
updated 10:11 a.m. ET Dec. 24, 2009

Don't believe the hype or numbers. Kobe Bryant is the best player in basketball and no one, not even LeBron James, comes close. The champion Lakers play the Cavaliers on Christmas Day, and of course it's billed as Kobe vs. LeBron. The truth is, the only thing the two truly have in common is they're Nike puppets. One Eastern Conference scout said there's no comparison between Bryant and James, noting the difference in how they perform in the clutch. Bryant has numerous game-winners, while James has a handful. "Kobe is a killer, and to be that, you must be selfish," the scout said. "Kobe has a level of arrogance that he doesn't give a (darn) what anyone thinks. LeBron has always had to share, ever since his childhood. It's not in him to be selfish. Whatever that 'it' is, Kobe has it and LeBron doesn't yet. (James) can get to a point where he's dangerous, but to Kobe's level? I don't think so."

[konex]

And the article lost all credibility at Lebron is the better shooter. Since when? His 3 pt shot is the only thing better this year. Even that at the end of the season won't be the case.

It's absurd. Bron does several things better than Kobe but shooting just isn't one of them. Hell, most teams play LeBron for the drive and give him wide open jumpers, he better make them...

You know a writer has an agenda when he compares two players' shooting stats based on "long 2s" and "threes" instead on simply looking at jumpshots taken/made %. Especially when Kobe is going out of his way not to shoot 3s this year!

[plowking]

You are the king of posting confidently - as if everyone is supposed to believe you - without ever having proof. The post above is emotion-laden:

"I won't argue the rest.." - why?
"Kobe has proven he's the best..." - how?
"...followed by..." - as if that is the order written in the Bible
"Comfortably." - yah, right...a lot of people believe that

LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%

And you post that Lebron is only better at shooting the 3. It's just not true.
Lebron tells everyone that Kobe is the best player in the league, and Lebron fans - many of them - feel the same way. It's just sad that Kobe fans' lack of confidence causes them to shoot down any facts, theories, etc. which suggest LBJ is better at anything.

How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...

Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.

So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.

Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.

Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.

[konex]

LBJ is a 50% shooter overall this year; Kobe is at 48.8
LBJ is at 53.8% on 2's this year; Kobe is at 52.5%

LeBron gets way more dunks than Kobe so his fg% should be better. The writer claimed that Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe this year. That is patently false

http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL5.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE9.HTM

Kobe takes (and makes) more jumpers...

[Simple Jack]

How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...

Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.

So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.

Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.

Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.


Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?

[Simple Jack]

LeBron gets way more dunks than Kobe so his fg% should be better. The writer claimed that Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe this year. That is patently false

http://www.82games.com/0910/09LAL5.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/09CLE9.HTM

Kobe takes (and makes) more jumpers...


And LeBron takes (and makes) more 3 pointers than Kobe. On top of that, from 2 point range, he is more efficient and scores at a higher % (jumpers/dunks/everything included). Why are you faulting a guy (who is one of the best finishers ever) for being able to get to the basket whenever he wants?

[cotdt]

Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?

He is correct, Kobe is a more skilled rebounder. Lebron being a SF puts him in a position to get more rebounds. Kobe gets more offensive rebounds than Lebron which requires more skill.

[konex]

And LeBron takes (and makes) more 3 pointers than Kobe. On top of that, from 2 point range, he is more efficient and scores at a higher % (jumpers/dunks/everything included). Why are you faulting a guy (who is one of the best finishers ever) for being able to get to the basket whenever he wants?

Again:



The writer claimed that Bron is a better jumpshooter than Kobe this year. That is patently false

[plowking]

Did you really just imply Kobe is a better rebounder than LeBron?

Most of Lebron's rebounds come from his teammates clearing out on long shots from the opposition and the ball just landing in Lebron's lap pretty much. Rebounding should be measured on offense, as they are contested. Kobe is slightly ahead, though I implied he was better, simply that they are equal.

[plowking]

The players in the league say Kobe...
Fans around the world say Kobe...
Coaches say Kobe...
Kids want to be like Kobe...

At the end of it, it will be Kobe remembered as the better player in the years he is around and getting his 30ppg...

[Simple Jack]

Most of Lebron's rebounds come from his teammates clearing out on long shots from the opposition and the ball just landing in Lebron's lap pretty much. Rebounding should be measured on offense, as they are contested. Kobe is slightly ahead, though I implied he was better, simply that they are equal.


So the best rebounder is the person who gets the most offensive rebounds?

[Simple Jack]

The players in the league say Kobe...
Fans around the world say Kobe...
Coaches say Kobe...
Kids want to be like Kobe...

At the end of it, it will be Kobe remembered as the better player in the years he is around and getting his 30ppg...

Pippen has said Bron, so has Jerry West. A bunch of players have as well. Their opinions mean more than yours, I win! I can pull rank too. It's a weak argument.

[Simple Jack]

He is correct, Kobe is a more skilled rebounder. Lebron being a SF puts him in a position to get more rebounds. Kobe gets more offensive rebounds than Lebron which requires more skill.

We are talking about impact on the court here, not skill.

Earl Boykins is more skilled than Shaq, that doesn't make him better.

Let me guess, Kobe is a better passer too? Or just more skilled...

[Simple Jack]

This is a first by the way; I've heard anyone try to argue Kobe as a better rebounder than LeBron.

ISH, where trolling happens.

[Simple Jack]

Last year's Lakers won 5 more games than the Cavs did, so I don't see why not. In the Lakers system, Lebron would not do as well as Kobe, because the system would not be built around him and Lebron has never played in a distributed offense. Phil Jackson would yell at him when he calls his teammates for an iso play or just dribbles the ball aimlessly for 20 seconds. Lakers' up-tempo offense would be slowed down big time by Lebron. Lebron has never played with a dominant frontline either.

Don't get me wrong Lebron would still do well overall in the Lakers system, but not as well as Kobe. Kind of like how Kobe works better with Shaq than Lebron, it's just his skillset matches better.

LeBron's court vision wouldn't help in the triangle? Do you even know what the triangle entails? An unselfish forward who can run the floor, hit jump shots, and has excellent court vision would thrive in the triangle.

[Jacks3]

Kobe or LeBron? LeBron or Kobe? Trying to settle on the best player in the NBA -- Lakers guard Kobe Bryant or Cavaliers forward LeBron James -- is no easy choice.

But, according to Sporting News' panel of experts, Bryant is the clear-cut No. 1. Bryant tops SN

[Samurai Swoosh]

How am I a Kobe fan? I support the Heat...

Kobe is a better scorer, shooter, defender... Furthermore, they're equal rebounders if anything, with Kobe being better this year. Lebron is only grabbing 1 offensive rebound per game to Kobe's 1.3. Defensive rebounding for wings is the most overrated thing, especially for Lebron considering his team gets out of the way for him on rebounds to start the offense, unlike Kobe.

So a better playmaker and 3pt shooter, and the 3pt shooting won't be the case at the end of the season.

Kobe's influence on a game goes beyond stats. I was one to scoff at this as well, and this is after watching him. Though now I really do see that he impacts the game more than anyone in the NBA today.

Lebron still has a problem that Carmelo had a while back; and a young Jordan may I add. He thinks that proving basketball worth all shows up on the stat sheet, when it is far from the truth.
Plowking is my favorite poster on ISH

[Twiens]

Nicolas Batum puts it best: :oldlol:

For LeBron, I was told "stay back and avoid letting him in the paint. It's better to let him shoot." For Kobe, it's "good luck."

[krazy19]

We are talking about impact on the court here, not skill.

Earl Boykins is more skilled than Shaq, that doesn't make him better.

Let me guess, Kobe is a better passer too? Or just more skilled...

Terrible thing to say that Boykins is more skilled than Shaq.

[Mihmus]

kobe by a mile

[hawksdogsbraves]

I agree with this. There's a debate for a reason and everyone agrees that Kobe and Lebron are the 1/2 guys in the league. If you can't understand why somebody would have one over the other then you're just not doing a very good job at analyzing the game.



I don't think there should be a debate among educated basketball fans, such as the ones (some of the ones at least) on this forum, that Lebron is the clear cut best player in the league and Kobe Bryant is second. Yes, a majority of the players in the league will tell the media that Kobe is the best, but I think that has much more to do with the rings and the Kobe hype as it does with the facts. I will admit that I am sometimes guilty at looking at stats too much, but they rarely lie and in the debate between Kobe and Lebron they tell us very very clearly that Lebron is the superior player.

So Kobe's argument must be with his ability to close out games, his leadership on and off the court, and most importantly for Kobe homers, his 4 shiny championship rings. Lebron is one of the great leaders in the league, and lest you forget it was him that rose to the head of the Olympic team. Kobe was mentioned as the 'leader who led by example', which sounds like bull**** frankly. Kobe is clutch as they come but come on, Lebron is nearly as good down the stretch of games, just look at the Magic playoff game last year. The rings, meh, I'll give them to Kobe but remember that he was NOT the number one option on the first 3, and was playing on a stacked Lakers team last year, not to mention that he has had possibly the greatest coach of all time on his bench for his entire career.

So, frankly, you can insult my basketball analysis all you want but I still won't suffer serious basketball fans who think Kobe is better than Lebron, because obviously their view is clouded by some bias.

[HighFlyer23]

#8 kobe > lebron

#24 kobe < lebron

[cotdt]

I don't have any problems with people who say Lebron is better than Kobe (though I disagree with them), but their reasoning has to stand up. I have a problem with people saying "Lebron is better because he shoots better" or "Lebron is more clutch than Kobe because he has a higher FG% in the last 5 minutes of a game" then all it shows is that they don't understand what they are watching in basketball, if they watch it at all. When people say "Lebron is a more skilled passer because he has more assists" you can tell their basketball IQ is just bad.

[plowking]

Pippen has said Bron, so has Jerry West. A bunch of players have as well. Their opinions mean more than yours, I win! I can pull rank too. It's a weak argument.

West immediately after said Kobe. Many thought he said it simply to spur Kobe on in the finals, and I agree.

[plowking]

This is a first by the way; I've heard anyone try to argue Kobe as a better rebounder than LeBron.

ISH, where trolling happens.

You still can't read. I said, if anything they are equal. Seeing as neither of the players battle for defensive rebounds, and simply get the ones that land in their lap, or in Lebron's case, the ones that are pretty much given to him by his teammates by moving out of the way, offensive rebounds would be the best way to compare the rebounding of the two. Seeing as Kobe is getting more this season, I'd say he's doing a better job.

[Simple Jack]

Terrible thing to say that Boykins is more skilled than Shaq.

No it's not. He's 5'5; are you aware how much skill you have to have in order to play in the NBA at that height?

[Simple Jack]

You still can't read. I said, if anything they are equal. Seeing as neither of the players battle for defensive rebounds, and simply get the ones that land in their lap, or in Lebron's case, the ones that are pretty much given to him by his teammates by moving out of the way, offensive rebounds would be the best way to compare the rebounding of the two. Seeing as Kobe is getting more this season, I'd say he's doing a better job.

Or how about being an impressive rebounder on one of the best rebounding teams in the league year in year out?

LeBron is the more athletic, skilled rebounder by a large margin. He's a leading rebounder among SF's every year and yet Kobe, who isn't recognized at all for his rebounding ability, is on par with LeBron.

Again, this is the first time I'm hearing someone argue this.

On a side note, claiming LeBron's rebounds come from his teammates moving to the side and "letting" him grab them is just hating.

"All of Kobe's assists are just his teammates getting in good position and them making great plays after a mediocre pass".

You have my vote for worst poster on ISH after Fatal. I usually skip your posts but this time I had to reply.

[Simple Jack]

West immediately after said Kobe. Many thought he said it simply to spur Kobe on in the finals, and I agree.

And many thought he said Kobe after (talked about Kobe more in terms of being clutch rather than overall a better player) because of the media coverage his comment got and not to "demean Kobe".

[plowking]

And you're just a typical generic poster who cries "hater" when someone points out something bad about his favorite player. Yeah bro, I hate Bron. I dislike watching one of the best talents the NBA has produced. It just sickens me... :rolleyes:

I think Kobe is the better player and I have stated why. A better scorer, shooter, defender. Equal in rebounding and Lebron ahead in playmaking. Not to mention Kobe is more clutch.

[Yung D-Will]

#8 kobe > lebron

#24 kobe < lebron

Other way around


#24 Kobe>Lebron

Lebron#8 Kobe

24 is Kobe's real prime he's a much smarter player improved his passing and his post game and really just became much more mature.

[MBC2K4]

This whole article is laughable & loses any and all integrity when it refers to the Lakers and Cavs meeting on Christmas for the second straight year, when in reality, they didn't even play each other on Christmas last year. That is a good indicator of what kind of "extensive" research this LeBron fanboy disguised as an ESPN reporter put into this article.

LeBron being picked as the better midrange shooter just shows the ignorance and stupidity of this reporter... same thing with LeBron being picked as the better primary defender. Kobe was the clearly superior player in both aspects just 2 seasons ago, and I will admit that LeBron has shown some noticeable improvement in both areas... but suddenly just because he's improved a little bit he's now considered better than Kobe? Kobe having a night where his midrange J isn't falling is about as common as a night where LeBron's is falling. Dunks do not equate to a midrange shot.

Also, LeBron lost any and all credibility to me as far as being considered this great man-to-man defender that he's been getting hyped up as lately with his showing in the ECF last year. A great PRIMARY DEFENDER with LeBron's size and athleticism doesn't cop out and guard Rafer Alston when 6'10" guys like Turkoglu and Lewis are out there burning your team just asking to be guarded by somebody. Guys like Kobe and Jordan wouldn't take that route. Hell, in the WCF last year when Melo was abusing Ariza and Walton in a couple of the games, Kobe got sick and tired of it and took to guarding Melo despite giving up 2 or 3 inches in height and 30 to 40 pounds.

[Simple Jack]

And you're just a typical generic poster who cries "hater" when someone points out something bad about his favorite player. Yeah bro, I hate Bron. I dislike watching one of the best talents the NBA has produced. It just sickens me... :rolleyes:

I think Kobe is the better player and I have stated why. A better scorer, shooter, defender. Equal in rebounding and Lebron ahead in playmaking. Not to mention Kobe is more clutch.

No, you're a hater because you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom, and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

I'm not your "bro".

[Simple Jack]

This whole article is laughable & loses any and all integrity when it refers to the Lakers and Cavs meeting on Christmas for the second straight year, when in reality, they didn't even play each other on Christmas last year. That is a good indicator of what kind of "extensive" research this LeBron fanboy disguised as an ESPN reporter put into this article.

LeBron being picked as the better midrange shooter just shows the ignorance and stupidity of this reporter... same thing with LeBron being picked as the better primary defender. Kobe was the clearly superior player in both aspects just 2 seasons ago, and I will admit that LeBron has shown some noticeable improvement in both areas... but suddenly just because he's improved a little bit he's now considered better than Kobe? Kobe having a night where his midrange J isn't falling is about as common as a night where LeBron's is falling. Dunks do not equate to a midrange shot.

Also, LeBron lost any and all credibility to me as far as being considered this great man-to-man defender that he's been getting hyped up as lately with his showing in the ECF last year. A great PRIMARY DEFENDER with LeBron's size and athleticism doesn't cop out and guard Rafer Alston when 6'10" guys like Turkoglu and Lewis are out there burning your team just asking to be guarded by somebody. Guys like Kobe and Jordan wouldn't take that route. Hell, in the WCF last year when Melo was abusing Ariza and Walton in a couple of the games, Kobe got sick and tired of it and took to guarding Melo despite giving up 2 or 3 inches in height and 30 to 40 pounds.

That's more up to the coach if anything.

On jump-shots alone this year, the difference is close to 3% for Kobe, hardly a large margin as you make it out to be.

Kobe has been the better defender for LeBron's time in the league up until last year. LeBron was the better help defender, and man defender. There's statistics to prove it if you don't believe me, but watching the game would show you how big of a change LeBron made in terms of primary D while Kobe took a step back from his lock-down defensive ways (taking way too many passing lane gambles and overall seemed to be much more lazy on defense than in years past). I know you guys hate mathematics and objective reasoning, but the defensive rating/win-shares give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

[MBC2K4]

LeBron is not a great man defender. The guy usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker. For some reason people make him out to be the second coming of Bruce Bowen or something & I just don't get it. He struggled with Alston at times in the ECF last year and wanted no part of stepping up and defending Lewis or Turkoglu; two guys that a supposed great athletic man defender like LeBron should've been salivating at the opportunity to guard under such circumstances. I'll give it to you that LeBron is a better secondary defender than Kobe but no chance in hell is he a better primary defender.

[plowking]

No, you're a hater because you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom, and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

I'm not your "bro".

:oldlol:

Typical generic poster with the generic line. You pretty much just proved me right.

Nice one.

:roll:

[psyentist]

Kobe has been the better defender for LeBron's time in the league up until last year. LeBron was the better help defender, and man defender. There's statistics to prove it if you don't believe me, but watching the game would show you how big of a change LeBron made in terms of primary D while Kobe took a step back from his lock-down defensive ways (taking way too many passing lane gambles and overall seemed to be much more lazy on defense than in years past). I know you guys hate mathematics and objective reasoning, but the defensive rating/win-shares give you a good idea of what I'm talking about.

Alright then. Where are these statistics that 'prove' what is in bold?

[MaxFly]

In terms of the mid-range game, here's are breakdown of both players' shooting.

http://www.dmjfly.com/hotzone/kobehotspot.jpg

http://www.dmjfly.com/hotzone/lebronhotspot.jpg

Bryant's shooting about 3% better than Lebron from range above the free throw line.

For all shots within the three, but not at the rim, Bryant is shooting 47.6%. Lebron is shooting 39.2%. Lebron makes up for this with his ability to get to the rim and finish and his superior three point shooting over Bryant this season, but Bryant's mid-range game is better, no doubt about it.

[Doranku]

No, you're a hater because you made a ridiculous claim that I can't even begin to fathom, and pass it off as if everyone should have already known.

I'm not your "bro".

Says the guy who JUST claimed Boykins is more skilled than Shaq. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Simple Jack]

LeBron is not a great man defender. The guy usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker. For some reason people make him out to be the second coming of Bruce Bowen or something & I just don't get it. He struggled with Alston at times in the ECF last year and wanted no part of stepping up and defending Lewis or Turkoglu; two guys that a supposed great athletic man defender like LeBron should've been salivating at the opportunity to guard under such circumstances. I'll give it to you that LeBron is a better secondary defender than Kobe but no chance in hell is he a better primary defender.


Check the opponents FG % in relation to their average. He's one of the only defenders who actually is effective on Kobe. There was a stretch last year in like 4 consecutive games where he kept Granger, Pierce i believe, Wallace, and another to such a low FG % it was laughable. His weakside D is obviously great because of his athleticism and great timing, but in addition, his man D took a huge jump last year.

[Simple Jack]

Says the guy who JUST claimed Boykins is more skilled than Shaq. :roll: :roll: :roll:

I'm going to guess you never played basketball in your life.

Being 5'5 playing against people who are on average a foot taller than you is absolutely insane. The fact that he made the NBA, let alone that he's rather successful and had stints of playing extremely well during his career is something I can't even fathom.

If you played basketball you'd have an idea of what I'm talking about.

[Mikaiel]

LeBron usually defends the weakest perimeter player on the opposing team and roams around in the passing lanes and this also enables him to be a weakside shot blocker.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[Simple Jack]

:oldlol:

Typical generic poster with the generic line. You pretty much just proved me right.

Nice one.

:roll:

Please teach me how to be cool like you plowking. I know it's a burden being that cool, but I can handle it!

[Simple Jack]

Alright then. Where are these statistics that 'prove' what is in bold?


Defensive rating? Defensive win-shares? Opponents FG relative to their averages?

Check them all out from last year...

[Pharcyde]

Kobe is the most over rated defender ever.

[madmax]

Kobe is the most over rated defender ever.

it's like the word "overrated" is synonymous to Kobe - everything he does is exaggerated and put on pedestal by his worshippers...They are even arguing the numbers which favour Lebron and calling them "flawed":roll: Somebody explain to me, how clear unbiased statistic measures can be innacurate?:hammerhead:

[Pharcyde]

it's like the word "overrated" is synonymous to Kobe - everything he does is exaggerated and put on pedestal by his worshippers...They are even arguing the numbers which favour Lebron and calling them "flawed":roll: Somebody explain to me, how clear unbiased statistic measures can be innacurate?:hammerhead:


I think he's a great player, but using his defense as the decision maker in him vs. Lebron is stupid. Both are inconsistent and overrated at it. Yet Kobe is still held as such an awesome defender.

Here are the stats:
Lebron -
28.8 PPG
7.8 APG
7.1 RPG
.8 BPG
1.3 SPG

Kobe -
29.3 PPG
4.2 APG
5.6 RPG
.3 BPG
2.2 SPG

So, Kobe beats Lebron in points right now, but he's also averaging more shots per game.
Lebron gets to the free throw line more at 9.1 compared to Kobe's 7.8.
Lebron's TS% is .599, Kobe's is .567.

I just don't see a real clear cut winner, but I give it to Lebron. I think they are both great though.

And no, I don't care that Kobe has 4 rings because accolades don't define anything for a player not even in his prime yet.

[Doranku]

I'm going to guess you never played basketball in your life.

Being 5'5 playing against people who are on average a foot taller than you is absolutely insane. The fact that he made the NBA, let alone that he's rather successful and had stints of playing extremely well during his career is something I can't even fathom.

If you played basketball you'd have an idea of what I'm talking about.

:oldlol: You can use the height excuse to try and spin this all you want. Fact remains, there's no way a career 11 ppg role player is more skilled than a career 24/11 player over 18 years who arguably had the most dominant prime EVER.

You must think Iverson is the GOAT with the ridiculous amount of emphais you place on height. :oldlol:

[Simple Jack]

:oldlol: You can use the height excuse to try and spin this all you want. Fact remains, there's no way a career 11 ppg role player is more skilled than a career 24/11 player over 18 years who arguably had the most dominant prime EVER.

You must think Iverson is the GOAT with the ridiculous amount of emphais you place on height. :oldlol:

You're an idiot; that's the point I'm trying to make. Skill doesn't mean much; it's about IMPACT and how you affect the game. I don't care if you can hit full court shots blindfolded, it matters what you do in the game. The point was, there are a lot of players more "skilled" than Shaq, but he has a huge impact on the game and that's the ONLY thing that matters.