Is Michael Jordan overrated?

[Wordup]

In my view I would say he is the best player in the 90's but I think he was overrated and one can easily say that guys like wilt chamberlain and magic johnson was just as good or better.

Even though Jordan played in more total games (due to playing a couple seasons more than Wilt Chamberlain and being in more playoff games) Wilt Chamberlain still holds the most individual records. For a big man he possesses alot of skills better than some guards. In his prime sometimes he was the quickest guy on the court, he also led the NBA in assists per game in one season, scored 50.0 points a game whereas Michael Jordan did not score 40.0 points a game but he was unable to win as much as Jordan because he did not have the supporting cast that Bill Russell had and the coaching staff like Red Auerbach.

Magic Johnson was more versatile than Michael Jordan. This is a guy who could play any position on the court. Magic resume is more impressive he won 5 rings and played in 9 championship appearances in only 11 seasons whereas Jordan won 6 rings in 13 seasons. Also for the most part Magic played against tougher teams from the east that it took jordan 7 years to get over. Also Magic Johnson played in a more physical era for most of his career. Whereas in the 1990's especially mid 1990's-late 1990's Jordan benefited from flagrant fouls being called more and more disciplinary actions so it was hard for opponents to rough him up the way they did Magic in the 80's and the way they did Jordan in the 80's.

[inclinerator]

yes

[KG5MVP]

have u watch MJ played? how old r u?

[ProfessorMurder]

Yes he's a little overrated, but he is the greatest.

All stars are overrated to some extent... Especially a certain player on the Lakers.

[poido123]

Here we go...

He gets what he deserves, he was the best so shouldn't he get the most adoration?

But seriously, we can come up with better threads than this, surely...

It's usually the new forum members who start these threads, so I guess it's understandable...

[madmax]

He only becomes overrated whem his stans proclaim gim consensus GOAT, which is the biggest BS of all times...other than that, he is probably a GOAT SG - not much to argue here.

[che guevara]

He only becomes overrated whem his stans proclaim gim consensus GOAT, which is the biggest BS of all times...other than that, he is probably a GOAT SG - not much to argue here.
Are you serious? He is the consensus GOAT player.

Consensus: majority of opinion: The consensus of the group was that they should meet twice a month.

I'm not an MJ "stan", by the way.

[Showtime]

have u watch MJ played? how old r u?
Coming from a kid who admits he never even watched KG in minny. Fail.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes. What do you expect when he had the biggest marketing campaign in the history of certainly North American sports and perhaps the world behind him? Nike was a blip on the radar screen in 1984. It became a dominant company solely because of the massive marketing campaign it built around Jordan. There was also immense money spent by Hanes (to this day you see MJ doing Hanes ads), Gatorade (likeness still used in some Gatorade commercials), McDonald's, Coca-Cola, Rayovac batteries, Ballpark hot dogs, and on and on. Even right now Sirius radio is using him in an ad. There was a Spike Lee movie hyping Jordan. There was Space Jam. There were catchy jingles ("I wanna be like Mike"). Name one athlete who comes close to having this much $$$$ behind him. Maybe you can find a soccer player overseas but you won't find anyone in North America. Even in Formula 1, which has 350 million viewers for each race around the world, their equivalent to Jordan (Michael Schumacher) did not have such a big marketing machine behind him. Yeah, he had a lot of endorsements but nothing like Jordan. Jordan's marketing machine rivals that of a national presidential campaign--except over 20+ years, not for one year.

Jordan was a great player, perhaps the best ever, but the notion that he is the "clear GOAT" is ridiculous and a direct product of the massive marketing campaign Jordan benefited from. When is the last time you saw Kareem or Russell in a commercial? Magic is doing ads--selling furniture but that is about it. When you combine the money behind him--a lot of companies had a vested interest in Jordan being viewed as great as possible--the exposure that money gave him and the fact that he played more recently than Kareem, Magic, Bird, Russell, and Wilt it isn't surprising most people today have him as the "clear GOAT." It always amazes me how Kareem and Wilt are #2 or #3 on 90% of lists yet rarely get to #1. What makes Jordan indisputably better than them? What is the big difference between having him #1 and Kareem (who had very little marketing behind him...) #2?


Consensus: majority of opinion:

What do you expect? Suppose there is primary election for governor.

Candidate A: Spends $50 million
Candidate B: Spends $10 million
Candidate C: Spends $2 million

Who do you think is going to win? That is just the financial aspect. Name recognition matters. People wear, or used to wear, Jordan shirts even in remote African and Asian villages. How many people know Wilt, Kareem, or Russell in America let alone remote parts of foreign countries where basketball is not huge? Even if they do know who Wilt was how well do they know him compared to how well they know Jordan? Name recognition matters in the formation of opinions. Why do you think Hillary was ahead by 20 points in practically every state in the spring and summer of 2007? Jordan is all some people know and he is the only "GOAT candidate" level player, other than Shaq, that most people know well so what do you expect them to say when they are asked who the GOAT is?

[triangleoffense]

Hey did you know that in basketball there is a thing called a position?

Michael played the SG position
Magic played the PG position
Wilt, coincidentally, played the C position!

Name me one SG that is better than Michael at that position and you win a prize!


Coming from a kid who admits he never even watched KG in minny. Fail.
That's really sad. Never taking said poster seriously again. Oh wait, I never did to begin with.

[sipitri]

Overrated? Yes
Goat? Yes

[SAKOTXA]

Coming from a kid who admits he never even watched KG in minny. Fail.

You beat me to it...

[elementally morale]

He sure is.

He has a good case for GOAT but not any better than Kareem or Russell. He has a good case for best prime, but not any better than Wilt or Bird. He also had very good teammates, who often don't get enough credtit, and he even had some luck.

That having been said, he is arguably the best player ever. But when people say he is the clear cut GOAT and noone else comes close... they are overrating him.

It's not more than a habit though, and it will go out of style in a few years. His story sold well for 15 years, but it's time for a change of perceptions. And reality is... perception.

[DuMa]

yes but if any player deserves to be overrated. its MJ. His life story is often retold time and time again and it always inspires greatness.

[cotdt]

Shaq and KAJ were more dominant than Jordan in their primes. Wilt might have been even more dominant, but I was not born yet when he dominated so I don't know. Jordan probably the GOAT wing player, though both Kobe and Lebron have many years left.

[97 bulls]

i have a question for those who dont believe jordan is the greatest ever. who is why and what would jordan have needed to do to to be the greatest in your eyes.

[andgar923]

this type of thread reminds me why I don't even visit this section anymore.

*goes back to the off the court*

[Allstar24]

Even his fanboys admit he's overrated, I think you got your answer.

[madmax]

i have a question for those who dont believe jordan is the greatest ever. who is why and what would jordan have needed to do to to be the greatest in your eyes.

well, he certainly didn't do enough to convince me...he collected his titles in watered down 90's with amazing squad and very talented coach - you could feel like he didn't even need to play his best to win those rings, that's how much Bulls were superior to other teams. As for his stats, they are very impressive, but as others already mentioned, Wilt was more dominant statistically, Russell was a GOAT winner and KAJ had better longevity...

[elementally morale]

i have a question for those who dont believe jordan is the greatest ever. who is why and what would jordan have needed to do to to be the greatest in your eyes.

Why? Is there a need for someone to be the ultimate best and the clear cut greatest? What if there wasn't anyone to be called that?

It there a greatest painter? Best composer ever? GOAT writer?

[stpwned]

Can someone explain to me how he's overrated?

[97 bulls]

Shaq and KAJ were more dominant than Jordan in their primes. Wilt might have been even more dominant, but I was not born yet when he dominated so I don't know. Jordan probably the GOAT wing player, though both Kobe and Lebron have many years left.
i dont see how shaq and kareem were more dominant in their prime. maybe id concede shaq but even with him is defense was suspect. which cancels him out. not to mention he was lazy.

kareem was great stats wise but he didnt win in his prime very much the 80s lakers were magics team. so to speak

[elementally morale]

Can someone explain to me how he's overrated?

What if you read a few answers in this very thread for a start?

[DuMa]

well, he certainly didn't do enough to convince me...he collected his titles in watered down 90's with amazing squad and very talented coach - you could feel like he didn't even need to play his best to win those rings, that's how much Bulls were superior to other teams. As for his stats, they are very impressive, but as others already mentioned, Wilt was more dominant statistically, Russell was a GOAT winner and KAJ had better longevity...
this post is laughable. MJ didnt even need to play his best? you never saw Jordan play did you? and calling the 90s watered down when it was the best era ever, even if you could compare eras anyway. that is laughable too.

but i guess you didnt even need to post your best to make that post right?

[97 bulls]

Why? Is there a need for someone to be the ultimate best and the clear cut greatest? What if there wasn't anyone to be called that?

It there a greatest painter? Best composer ever? GOAT writer?
lets not get philosophical. obviously this is all opinion. but im hearing people say hes overrated and i just know that jordan unlike every other player in the league jordan had no weakness. he was great at most things and solid to very good, at everything else.

[elementally morale]

lets not get philosophical. obviously this is all opinion. but im hearing people say hes overrated and i just know that jordan unlike every other player in the league jordan had no weakness. he was great at most things and solid to very good, at everything else.

Well, look at your username. It is your profession to think MJ was the sh!t. And it is not philosophical in the least. Why do we all have to choose one player as the 'best'?

If I can't decide who I think the best actor/musician/writer/composer/etc. is, why should I know who the best ballplayer was?

[poido123]

Well, look at your username. It is your profession to think MJ was the sh!t. And it is not philosophical in the least. Why do we all have to choose one player as the 'best'?

If I can't decide who I think the best actor/musician/writer/composer/etc. is, why should I know who the best ballplayer was?

Sometimes I wonder if people comprehend why Jordan is regarded by most of his peers to be the Goat...I pretty much ignore the BS arguments that I hear against Jordan, because most of them are fueled by their homerism and love of Kobe, pretty simple...

I'm sick of hearing watered down nineties, weak era, blah blah blah, he played with many hall of famers, guys regarded as the best who ever played, so don't feed me that crap, ISH is predominantly Lakers/Kobe fans, so I do expect Jordan to be called overrated, not GOAT, and fans who have never seen him play say he played in a watered down league...

I don't know why I waste my time defending Jordan, but I really hope that one of my posts may inspire some people to say hey, maybe I should watch a few series or games of Jordan's, maybe my ignorance is clouding my opinion, maybe someone was better than Kobe, before he came into the league...

[rfm767]

Jordan has the strongest case for GOAT among the worldwide basketball comunity. He IS overrated to some extent, but if he wasn't, he would still hold up as the best case for GOAT.

[madmax]

this post is laughable. MJ didnt even need to play his best? you never saw Jordan play did you? and calling the 90s watered down when it was the best era ever, even if you could compare eras anyway. that is laughable too.

but i guess you didnt even need to post your best to make that post right?

I saw him play plenty of times in the 90's, and I was old enough to make my own judgement. Granted I was a bit too young to watch his peak statistic years in the 80's, but he also wasn't winning much then, didn't he? And by the time he became a winner, he already had a great team arround him. And those Bulls were damn talented squad, no one can deny that...

[rfm767]

Why? Is there a need for someone to be the ultimate best and the clear cut greatest? What if there wasn't anyone to be called that?

It there a greatest painter? Best composer ever? GOAT writer?


It's easier to rank performances in sports than most arts. This is because sports gives out winners and losers and more quantitative parameters for comparison.

[Lebron23]

No

Greatest Player in NBA History.

Jordan has one less Finals MVP, and more NBA Regular Season MVP than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe combined.

[poido123]

I saw him play plenty of times in the 90's, and I was old enough to make my own judgement. Granted I was a bit too young to watch his peak statistic years in the 80's, but he also wasn't winning much then, didn't he? And by the time he became a winner, he already had a great team arround him. And those Bulls were damn talented squad, no one can deny that...

:lol

You're a clown.

[elementally morale]

It's easier to rank performances in sports than most arts. This is because sports gives out winners and losers and more quantitative parameters for comparison.

I'm showing you some footage of Puskas, Pel

[poido123]

[QUOTE=elementally morale]I'm showing you some footage of Puskas, Pel

[elementally morale]

No
Greatest Player in NBA History.
Jordan has one less Finals MVP, and more NBA Regular Season MVP than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe combined.

Well, Kareem has more MVPs than that. He also has a few titles, doesn't he? He has perhaps the best shot the NBA has ever seen. He has the all-time numbers and he also has longevity on his side.

Russell has more titles. Most definitely would have more Finals MVPs, too. Has some nice stats, last time I checked. Was a 'better winner'.

Greatest Player in NBA history depends on who does the ranking. You were brought up in an era when everyone always said Jordan. But it will change.

[elementally morale]

Well, consensus points to Pele as GOAT, which also is the case for MJ...

As best striker? Puskas beats him every way possible. I can prove you via stats and I'm not kidding. What's more, the Puskas award has just been given out this year... for strikers. It is called the Puskas-award for a reason... it is not the Pel

[poido123]

[QUOTE=elementally morale]As best striker? Puskas beats him every way possible. I can prove you via stats and I'm not kidding. What's more, the Puskas award has just been given out this year... for strikers. It is called the Puskas-award for a reason... it is not the Pel

[rfm767]

[QUOTE=elementally morale]I'm showing you some footage of Puskas, Pel

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan has the strongest case for GOAT among the worldwide basketball comunity. He IS overrated to some extent, but if he wasn't, he would still hold up as the best case for GOAT.

You are assuming people actually examine the cases for others. Let's face it: most people call Jordan the GOAT because that is all they hear on ESPN and everywhere else. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as scientific fact, not an opinion.


so I do expect Jordan to be called overrated, not GOAT, and fans who have never seen him play say he played in a watered down league...

He can be both the GOAT and overrated. He is ascribed god-like qualities at times by his biggest fans.

The dilution issue is a legitimate one. In Formula One there is a discussion for GOAT and two of the big three candidates raced in the 80's/early 90's. The other, Michael Schumacher, raced from the mid-90's to 2006 (but is coming back next season!!!! :rockon: ). Schumacher blows Senna and Prost away in terms of championships and race wins. He has all the records. He has as many championships as Senna and Prost combined. So why is there even a GOAT argument? He won in a weak era. I consider MS the GOAT but I concede he had no real competition. Senna and Prost raced in the toughest era of F1 and Schumacher in a weak era. If F1 fans can have the conversation why not in basketball? The same arguments apply to Jordan--except that Jordan was not far and away the biggest winner and dominant figure in his sport. MJ fans are defensive. If you go to a board of another sport you will say the GOAT issue raised far more than it is among basketball fans. What annoys many people is MJ is shoved down our threats 24/7 and has been for 20+ years.


Why? Is there a need for someone to be the ultimate best and the clear cut greatest? What if there wasn't anyone to be called that?

It there a greatest painter? Best composer ever? GOAT writer?

I've often heard Shakespeare referred to as the GOAT writer. I am not familiar with composers or painters but one assumes there is a GOAT discussion regarding that. I know there is the GOAT discussion regarding presidents, generals, hell even secretaries of state and Supreme Court justices. I know your view on this but I wanted to point out for the people in this thread that the GOAT discussion occurs outside the realm of sports too.


Greatest Player in NBA History.

Jordan has one less Finals MVP, and more NBA Regular Season MVP than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe combined.

That is definitive?

Kareem: 6 MVP's (>MJ's 5), 6 rings (=MJ), 10 NBA finals (>MJ's 6), 14 conference finals (>MJ's 8), #1 all-time in scoring (>MJ's #3), #3 in rebounding, #3 in blocks, his teams won 57 games--on average (which>Jordan's 49). Kareem is the GOAT imo, MJ #2. If Kareem had the luck Jordan had and got his great team when he was 25 instead of 32 Kareem would crush everyone else.
Russell: 5 MVP's, 11 championships in 13 years (would have been 12 but his team couldn't win without him when he got hurt)
Wilt: The most individually dominant player ever. He is such a legend people associate numbers with him. 50.4. 100. 20,000.
Magic: 3 MVP's, 5 championships, 9 NBA finals, etc.

And so on with Bird and Shaq. With all due respect, this is what we are talking about. Many people act as if no one else has a case over Jordan. Jordan may be the GOAT but others have strong cases too.


and calling the 90s watered down when it was the best era ever, even if you could compare eras anyway. that is laughable too.

The 90's were not the best era. The 90's had one dominant team--and Jordan was on it. The 80's had four great teams: the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, and Sixers. The 90's had very good teams that could have been great like the Knicks, Magic, Suns, Blazers, Sonics, Jazz and Rockets but none of them could put it all together. Yeah, the Rockets won two championships but where were they for the rest of the decade? Outside of their two championship years they made it to the conference finals only once. They lost in the first round four times and missed the playoffs in another year.

[elementally morale]

Shakespeare?

Bill was pretty good, yeah. But I prefer Thomas Mann, Bulgakov, Tolstoi and Dostoevski to him. No offense to old Bill, he was good in his own right, but...

...could he do it in this era? Today's era is a lot faster. They played no D back then. Shakespeare was nowhere near the athlete Hemingway was, and he has never seen a war the way Mailer, Heller or Vonnegut have.

I mean... sure, Billie was good but he was not that popular in his time. There were too few people reading or writing at all back then. A guy like Steinbeck is a lot more valuable if you ask me... Billie never even won the Nobel-prize

You know what I mean..................

[ThaRegul8r]

He's overrated, when people call him the GOAT for no reason and think he's head and shoulders above every player to ever play the game. He's not overrated when people just call him the GOAT and explan it though.

This. People act like compared to all the other greats to have ever played the game, Jordan is in a league of his own, and that it's an insult to even suggest that someone else might possibly have a legitimate case. Often, should one lay out a case for someone other than Jordan as GOAT, they will be ridiculed and told that they're living in denial, and must be a fan of a team Jordan routinely beat in the playoffs. There's no argument. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. In that sense, yes, Jordan is overrated.

[Abraham Lincoln]

This. People act like compared to all the other greats to have ever played the game, Jordan is in a league of his own, and that it's an insult to even suggest that someone else might possibly have a legitimate case. Often, should one lay out a case for someone other than Jordan as GOAT, they will be ridiculed and told that they're living in denial, and must be a fan of a team Jordan routinely beat in the playoffs. There's no argument. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. In that sense, yes, Jordan is overrated.
:applause:

[Abraham Lincoln]

other than that, he is probably a GOAT SG There's no "probably" about it.

[97 bulls]

You are assuming people actually examine the cases for others. Let's face it: most people call Jordan the GOAT because that is all they hear on ESPN and everywhere else. Jordan being the GOAT is passed off as scientific fact, not an opinion.



He can be both the GOAT and overrated. He is ascribed god-like qualities at times by his biggest fans.

The dilution issue is a legitimate one. In Formula One there is a discussion for GOAT and two of the big three candidates raced in the 80's/early 90's. The other, Michael Schumacher, raced from the mid-90's to 2006 (but is coming back next season!!!! :rockon: ). Schumacher blows Senna and Prost away in terms of championships and race wins. He has all the records. He has as many championships as Senna and Prost combined. So why is there even a GOAT argument? He won in a weak era. I consider MS the GOAT but I concede he had no real competition. Senna and Prost raced in the toughest era of F1 and Schumacher in a weak era. If F1 fans can have the conversation why not in basketball? The same arguments apply to Jordan--except that Jordan was not far and away the biggest winner and dominant figure in his sport. MJ fans are defensive. If you go to a board of another sport you will say the GOAT issue raised far more than it is among basketball fans. What annoys many people is MJ is shoved down our threats 24/7 and has been for 20+ years.



I've often heard Shakespeare referred to as the GOAT writer. I am not familiar with composers or painters but one assumes there is a GOAT discussion regarding that. I know there is the GOAT discussion regarding presidents, generals, hell even secretaries of state and Supreme Court justices. I know your view on this but I wanted to point out for the people in this thread that the GOAT discussion occurs outside the realm of sports too.



That is definitive?

Kareem: 6 MVP's (>MJ's 5), 6 rings (=MJ), 10 NBA finals (>MJ's 6), 14 conference finals (>MJ's 8), #1 all-time in scoring (>MJ's #3), #3 in rebounding, #3 in blocks, his teams won 57 games--on average (which>Jordan's 49). Kareem is the GOAT imo, MJ #2. If Kareem had the luck Jordan had and got his great team when he was 25 instead of 32 Kareem would crush everyone else.
Russell: 5 MVP's, 11 championships in 13 years (would have been 12 but his team couldn't win without him when he got hurt)
Wilt: The most individually dominant player ever. He is such a legend people associate numbers with him. 50.4. 100. 20,000.
Magic: 3 MVP's, 5 championships, 9 NBA finals, etc.

And so on with Bird and Shaq. With all due respect, this is what we are talking about. Many people act as if no one else has a case over Jordan. Jordan may be the GOAT but others have strong cases too.



The 90's were not the best era. The 90's had one dominant team--and Jordan was on it. The 80's had four great teams: the Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, and Sixers. The 90's had very good teams that could have been great like the Knicks, Magic, Suns, Blazers, Sonics, Jazz and Rockets but none of them could put it all together. Yeah, the Rockets won two championships but where were they for the rest of the decade? Outside of their two championship years they made it to the conference finals only once. They lost in the first round four times and missed the playoffs in another year.
id like to respond to the end of your post rock. i honestly dont feel that any era was better than another. the 90s had 4 different teams win a championship and all won more than one during their tenure on top. the 80s also had 4 teams winning and out of those 4 the sixers were dominant for one season. which they won.

and i still dont understand how an era in which two teams are competing for the championship about 85 percent of the time. is considered more competitive than another. the lakers were in i believe 8 out of the 10 finals played in the 80s. and the celtics were in 4 or 5. i fail to see a difference.

[Magic Vinsanity]

No, he isnt. He has the stats, the rings and the legacy to prove it. He is the GOAT in his chosen profession, so no, he isnt overrated. I'm not an MJ fan or a Bulls fan, never have been, I hated him in the 90's when the Bulls/Magic rivalry was at its peak in 95/96, but I wont deny he is the man.

[Phong]

Kareem: 6 MVP's (>MJ's 5), 6 rings (=MJ), 10 NBA finals (>MJ's 6), 14 conference finals (>MJ's 8), #1 all-time in scoring (>MJ's #3), #3 in rebounding, #3 in blocks, his teams won 57 games--on average (which>Jordan's 49). Kareem is the GOAT imo, MJ #2. If Kareem had the luck Jordan had and got his great team when he was 25 instead of 32 Kareem would crush everyone else.

Russell: 5 MVP's, 11 championships in 13 years (would have been 12 but his team couldn't win without him when he got hurt)

Wilt: The most individually dominant player ever. He is such a legend people associate numbers with him. 50.4. 100. 20,000.

Magic: 3 MVP's, 5 championships, 9 NBA finals, etc.
:cheers:

[Duncan21formvp]

That is definitive?

Kareem: 6 MVP's (>MJ's 5), 6 rings (=MJ), 10 NBA finals (>MJ's 6), 14 conference finals (>MJ's 8), #1 all-time in scoring (>MJ's #3), #3 in rebounding, #3 in blocks, his teams won 57 games--on average (which>Jordan's 49). Kareem is the GOAT imo, MJ #2. If Kareem had the luck Jordan had and got his great team when he was 25 instead of 32 Kareem would crush everyone else.
Russell: 5 MVP's, 11 championships in 13 years (would have been 12 but his team couldn't win without him when he got hurt)
Wilt: The most individually dominant player ever. He is such a legend people associate numbers with him. 50.4. 100. 20,000.
Magic: 3 MVP's, 5 championships, 9 NBA finals, etc.



Kareem had to be traded to a winning organization and play with another top 5 player all time in order to win. The man had a great team in Milwaukee for 5 years and lost 3 series with HCA.

Also Jordan never got a team, the team was always a work in progress. The team was a losing organization that had never done anything and then turned into a dynasty.




-Most scoring titles—10
-Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
-Highest career scoring average—30.12
-Highest career scoring average playoffs— 33.45
-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57
-Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
-Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)
-Most 40+ point games in the playoffs - 38 (no one else has even half that all time)
-Most 50+ point games in the playoffs - 8 (no one else has more than 4)
-Highest PER Career - 27.91
-Highest Playoff PER Career - 28.59
-Never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series and never been outscored in any playoff series.


Most Career Playoff Win Shares despite playing less games than Kareem in the playoffs.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html


Most Career MVP Shares

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_career.html


Kareem won 6 MVP's and MJ 5, however Kareem got 1 MVP on a team that didn't even make the playoffs.


#1 in the Hall of Fame Monitor
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob_career.html


And never lost a Series with Homecourt Advantage nor Lost a Series having the Same Record or Better than Opponent.

[97 bulls]

This. People act like compared to all the other greats to have ever played the game, Jordan is in a league of his own, and that it's an insult to even suggest that someone else might possibly have a legitimate case. Often, should one lay out a case for someone other than Jordan as GOAT, they will be ridiculed and told that they're living in denial, and must be a fan of a team Jordan routinely beat in the playoffs. There's no argument. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. In that sense, yes, Jordan is overrated.
your right but look at it this way. when this convo comes up its always jordan and someone else for example

most rings for the top 10 alltime players are kareem russel and jordan.

best stats are kareem wilt and jordan

finals mvps are shaq, jordan, and russel

most diminant was shaq, wilt, jordan

greatest defender russel, wilt, pippen, jordan, rodman

most clutch kobe, kareem, magic, bird, jordan

most rings as the best player on the team russel, magic and jordan,

jordan is the only player in every single category. that why i cant see the "overrated" claim

[Ken_Masters]

This question can only be asked by somebody whose never seen him play.

[FlashDwyaneWade3]

Yes he's a little overrated, but he is the greatest.

All stars are overrated to some extent... Especially a certain player on the Lakers.
And that guy in Cleveland.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

I actually believe he is underrated in the way he was rated when he was overrated.

[Disaprine]

His commercials make him seem overrated, but he's not.

[sekachu]

your right but look at it this way. when this convo comes up its always jordan and someone else for example

most rings for the top 10 alltime players are kareem russel and jordan.

best stats are kareem wilt and jordan

finals mvps are shaq, jordan, and russel

most diminant was shaq, wilt, jordan

greatest defender russel, wilt, pippen, jordan, rodman

most clutch kobe, kareem, magic, bird, jordan

most rings as the best player on the team russel, magic and jordan,

jordan is the only player in every single category. that why i cant see the "overrated" claim


:applause: MJ might not be the best in every category, but he is among one of the best no matter which categories you mention, MJ is always there

[juju151111]

your right but look at it this way. when this convo comes up its always jordan and someone else for example

most rings for the top 10 alltime players are kareem russel and jordan.

best stats are kareem wilt and jordan

finals mvps are shaq, jordan, and russel

most diminant was shaq, wilt, jordan

greatest defender russel, wilt, pippen, jordan, rodman

most clutch kobe, kareem, magic, bird, jordan

most rings as the best player on the team russel, magic and jordan,

jordan is the only player in every single category. that why i cant see the "overrated" claim
Exactly. Also if you combine stats,dominance,clutch,rings,MVPs he comes out on top again. Mj is the Goat because he is in so many areas. MJ is not overratted.

[lbj23clutch]

Yes argubly the greatest player ever to grace the game is overrated. :oldlol:


The majority of experts and fans have agreed his status as the GOAT. Why? Because he has the accomplishments and leagacy to prove it. Michael Jordan revolutionized this game of basketball.


And how is he overrated when the media and alot of fans already swear like Kobe and LeBron are as good as MJ?

[poido123]

Yes argubly the greatest player ever to grace the game is overrated. :oldlol:

:lol :oldlol: :cheers:

Its absurd what people come up with, Jordan overrated, please...:no:

[puppychili]

Jordan dominated the game like only centers have before him but he did it from the guard position. He has the highest career scoring average and never lost a playoff series where he had home court. That is not hype that is fact.

Do some people overate him and act like he could never lose and always hit every game winning shot? Sure, but that doesn't take away from what he actually did.

Just cause you may not like Jordan for whatever reason doesn't mean he's not the GOAT. Too many people let their personal opinion cloud their judgment when it comes to Jordan. I mean why is it that at least 80% of the people who knock Jordan are Laker fans? I've never thoroughly understood that.

Is Jordan far and away the GOAT? No way. There are plenty of players in his class but in the end Jordan is number one. You poll current players, a majority will say Jordan is the GOAT, same with former players, same with NBA historians. Whether it is a slim majority or a wide majority doesn't matter. There can only be one number one and that is Jordan. It may bother some people but that doesn't mean it's not true.

[poido123]

Jordan dominated the game like only centers have before him but he did it from the guard position. He has the highest career scoring average and never lost a playoff series where he had home court. That is not hype that is fact.

Do some people overate him and act like he could never lose and always hit every game winning shot? Sure, but that doesn't take away from what he actually did.

Just cause you may not like Jordan for whatever reason doesn't mean he's not the GOAT. Too many people let their personal opinion cloud their judgment when it comes to Jordan. I mean why is it that at least 80% of the people who knock Jordan are Laker fans? I've never thoroughly understood that.

Is Jordan far and away the GOAT? No way. There are plenty of players in his class but in the end Jordan is number one. You poll current players, a majority will say Jordan is the GOAT, same with former players, same with NBA historians. Whether it is a slim majority or a wide majority doesn't matter. Than can only be one number one and that is Jordan. It may bother some people but that doesn't mean it's not true.


This.

Because of the Kobe comparisons, Lakers fans don't like to admit there's a better player who's played the game than Kobe...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Always the Laker fans who start these threads, if you notice. Always the ones talking about how Magic is better than Jordan. :oldlol: Sad.

[Glide2keva]

This.

Because of the Kobe comparisons, Lakers fans don't like to admit there's a better player who's played the game than Kobe...
And there it is in a nutshell.

This thread reeks of Laker/Kobe homerism.

[puppychili]

Thats partly true. Laker fans were hating on Jordan before the Lakers drafted Kobe.

[YAWN]

This.

Because of the Kobe comparisons, Lakers fans don't like to admit there's a better player who's played the game than Kobe...

i haven't read this thread yet, but people do hold jordan to an exaggerated esteem. He is unquestionably the greatest player to ever play the sport of basketball, but the distance between him and the pack isn't as astronomical as people want to claim. Jordan fans are quick to dismiss the possibility of anyone ever knocking him off his throne. I don't see it that way. So in that sense, yes he is overrated.

[YAWN]

Thats partly true. Laker fans were hating on Jordan before the Lakers drafted Kobe.

yep, everyone thought that magic was the best player, or that kareem still was.

[EricForman]

He only becomes overrated whem his stans proclaim gim consensus GOAT, which is the biggest BS of all times...other than that, he is probably a GOAT SG - not much to argue here.


do you know what consensus means? it means most, if not almost all, people agree. Jordan is called consensus GOAT because most people, from former players to coaches to analyst to sports writer to fans, agree he is the GOAT. It's not a term ISH just came up with.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This thread is further evidence of why Laker fans are the lowest form if life on the planet (hyperbole, but work with me). Hive minds, all saying/thinking the same thing, constantly agitating for niche opinions (Magic > Jordan, Jordan is "overrated" etc.).

[BIZARRO]

If one were to go by the replies in this thread (by most of you who never saw him in the late '80's when he DESTROYED folks), then I would say he is one of the most underrated players of all time.

MJ is one of those rare, if not the only, player in any sport who it is hard to quantify his greatness because at his best he was just out of this world and there is really nothing to compare him to.

Billion dollars hands, hops out of the gym, laser speed, genius B-Ball I.Q., spectacular defensive intincts, mind boggling coordination in mid-air, passed like a point, rebounded like a forward, clutch, slit your throat to win, etc. etc....

Once again, if you didn't see him '87-90, then you didn't see him. Period.

Imagine Kobe, with Vince's Hops, Wade's slashing, Bron's unstoppable drives, and then multiply by 3. That equation might get you close.

Blasphemy to say he's overrated. That's just nonsense from those who didn't see him in these days>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE&feature=PlayList&p=166207115921BBFB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7S76yjxSWE
:bowdown:

[puppychili]

There may very well be a player in the future that passes Jordan. That player will have to have a very stacked resume in order to do so though. I don't see any current player passing Jordan. The book on Bron is still open but he has a lot to accomplish.

And I'm not saying this because I'm a Jordan "stan" (god I hate that fukking term!) I haven't seen a player thats better than Magic or Bird either, so there

[poido123]

i haven't read this thread yet, but people do hold jordan to an exaggerated esteem. He is unquestionably the greatest player to ever play the sport of basketball, but the distance between him and the pack isn't as astronomical as people want to claim. Jordan fans are quick to dismiss the possibility of anyone ever knocking him off his throne. I don't see it that way. So in that sense, yes he is overrated.

I think there's been a lot of speculative arguments for a few players for the mantle, but it comes down to who maximised their situation, with the smallest amount of weaknesses in their game, and dominated their respective eras, taking into acccount their team makeup and competition...And I think Jordan did all these things, his playoff record is astounding, and like someone else has said here before, he and his team have never lost a playoff series when they have had home court advantage...Jordan even retired, and came back and won 3 rings, now that's dominance...To say that he played in a weak era is funny, it was a very physical, and very talent-laden era, you had the barkley's, the drexlers, the ewings, the thomas/dumars, hakeem, malone/stockton, all these guys are hall of famers and the list goes on, a lot more dense in talent than the 00's, so I don't want to hear the era crap anymore, that argument is useless...

[rfm767]

If one were to go by the replies in this thread (by most of you who never saw him in the late '80's when he DESTROYED folks), then I would say he is one of the most underrated players of all time.

MJ is one of those rare, if not the only, player in any sport who it is hard to quantify his greatness because at his best he was just out of this world and there is really nothing to compare him to.

Billion dollars hands, hops out of the gym, laser speed, genius B-Ball I.Q., spectacular defensive intincts, mind boggling coordination in mid-air, passed like a point, rebounded like a forward, clutch, slit your throat to win, etc. etc....

Once again, if you didn't see him '87-90, then you didn't see him. Period.

Imagine Kobe, with Vince's Hops, Wade's slashing, Bron's unstoppable drives, and then multiply by 3. That equation might get you close.

Blasphemy to say he's overrated. That's just nonsense from those who didn't see him in these days>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdmKXTUF4wE&feature=PlayList&p=166207115921BBFB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=26
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7S76yjxSWE
:bowdown:

Lmao :roll: 1st link, 1:07 slow-motion replay also had slow-motion voice. I dont recall pro tv broadcasts doing that late in the 80s :confusedshrug: was that amateurish edited?

[YAWN]

I think there's been a lot of speculative arguments for a few players for the mantle, but it comes down to who maximised their situation, with the smallest amount of weaknesses in their game, and dominated their respective eras, taking into acccount their team makeup and competition...And I think Jordan did all these things, his playoff record is astounding, and like someone else has said here before, he and his team have never lost a playoff series when they have had home court advantage...Jordan even retired, and came back and won 3 rings, now that's dominance...To say that he played in a weak era is funny, it was a very physical, and very talent-laden era, you had the barkley's, the drexlers, the ewings, the thomas/dumars, hakeem, malone/stockton, all these guys are hall of famers and the list goes on, a lot more dense in talent than the 00's, so I don't want to hear the era crap anymore, that argument is useless...

uhmm did you read what i said? i didnt mention anything about era :oldlol: I also mentioned that he is unquestionably the greatest player to ever touch a basketball..i simply gave the way that one could consider him to be "overrated".

[YAWN]

This thread is further evidence of why Laker fans are the lowest form if life on the planet (hyperbole, but work with me). Hive minds, all saying/thinking the same thing, constantly agitating for niche opinions (Magic > Jordan, Jordan is "overrated" etc.).
I must be blind, but can you point me to where people are claiming magic is better than jordan? I also find funny that the you process information the same way as the handful of laker trolls on this site. Always defensive, and always wearing your laker hating goggles to the extent that you misconstrue what is plainly written.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I must be blind, but can you point me to where people are claiming magic is better than jordan? I also find funny that the you process information the same way as the handful of laker trolls on this site. Always defensive, and always wearing your laker hating goggles to the extent that you misconstrue what is plainly written.

Did you even read the original post of this thread where the dude said/implied Magic > Jordan? And yeah, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Laker/Kobe fans are always the ones starting these kinds of topics. :oldlol:

[YAWN]

Did you even read the original post of this thread where the dude said/implied Magic > Jordan? And yeah, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Laker/Kobe fans are always the ones starting these kinds of topics. :oldlol:

so just the random gimmick account with 20 posts? Chances are its one of the same 2 or 3 laker trolls that always post crazy things.

[#1SportsFan86]

Only Kobe lovers think MJ is overrated and most of the Kobe lovers have never seen Jordan in his prime play, Jordan is not overrated to real NBA fans.

[indiefan23]

MJ was over rated, but if you take him at half the value of his rating, he's still better then anyone else ever was. Nothing against Wilt/Magic, but they didn't have what Jordan had.

Again, the average age of ISH is 21, so you can expect a lot of people to make decisions about players they never saw.

[xtn5021]

No.

[magnax1]

What Jordan did is crazy. When I really realized how great he was, was when he came back for the Wizards, and averaged 25 points, six rebounds, and five assists before he was injured. What was he? 39? Hadn't played in four years, and still was one of the five or ten best players in the league. A lot of people even said he was the MVP. To bad his knee blew out, with how weak the east was, he might have made it as far as the conference finals, or if someone got injured, the finals.

[Diesel J]

LOL @ this thread. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Thunderstruck]

I can remember as far back as Bird and Magic in the 80s and Jordan is the greatest player I have ever seen. No one else comes close. If you want to argue that he's overrated I won't disagree with you, but that's only because he is basically a god among men and regarded as a living legend around the world.

[Psileas]

Plenty of people (maybe more than I expected) covered the matter fine. There is a huge number of fans whose knowledge on the GOAT candidates (for reasons also explained) begins and ends with Jordan. You can't expect anything different from them than to claim that Jordan was the "hands-down" GOAT. If you ask them to name you their top-10, you'll start seeing strange things up there, like LeBron being already there or Kobe being top-3. Ask them to expand their lists to top-50, and you'll notice names like Dwight Howard, Tony Parker, Bosh...Among valid GOAT candidates, Jordan has to have by far the biggest core of such fans (Kobe does, as well, but he's not a valid GOAT candidate).
BTW, me being a numbers guy (not solely, but in a good part), I'm getting annoyed when people have to distort them to make other candidates look worse. Kareem, for example, did not lose 3 times with HCA at Milwaukee, like someone said before, but 2. Not a big deal? Try telling a Jordan fan that Jordan lost 1 series with HCA instead of 0 or that he won 9 scoring titles instead of 10, and you'll see. Wilt's playoff scoring average of 22.54 is not rounded to 22, like so many claim the number to be, it's rounded to 23. Of course, these aren't the most glaring examples I could find (the "average height of centers in the 60's" thing is a lot worse), but you get the idea.


your right but look at it this way. when this convo comes up its always jordan and someone else for example

most rings for the top 10 alltime players are kareem russel and jordan.

best stats are kareem wilt and jordan

finals mvps are shaq, jordan, and russel

most diminant was shaq, wilt, jordan

greatest defender russel, wilt, pippen, jordan, rodman

most clutch kobe, kareem, magic, bird, jordan

most rings as the best player on the team russel, magic and jordan,

jordan is the only player in every single category. that why i cant see the "overrated" claim

"Greatest team player ever": It's between Magic, Russell and Bird.

"Greatest defender ever": Jordan was great at this department, but the main talk is among centers, usually Russell, Hakeem and Wilt.

"Most instant improvement of a team": It's between Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Robinson and maybe Russell and Wilt.

"Most rings for the top 10 alltime player" is not a debate. We know the answer is Russell, except a few poor souls who don't think that Russell is top-10.

"Most Finals' MVP's" and "most rings as the best player of your team" are too close to be considered 2 completely different categories. I'd say 80-90% of the two lists overlap.

[plowking]

How the hell is he overrated? He's underrated if anything and this is coming from someone who hates Jordan.

He is the consensus GOAT, and when people say he isn't, its underrating him on the spot.

And no, you don't look like a smarter poster just by saying, "Yeah he was, but he was the GOAT" as if you have some further imput.

He is the GOAT, clearly. There are other great players, but none of the caliber of Jordan. He's the only player without a weakness. No other player displayed that, while being as dominant.

[madmax]

How the hell is he overrated? He's underrated if anything and this is coming from someone who hates Jordan.

He is the consensus GOAT, and when people say he isn't, its underrating him on the spot.

And no, you don't look like a smarter poster just by saying, "Yeah he was, but he was the GOAT" as if you have some further imput.

He is the GOAT, clearly. There are other great players, but none of the caliber of Jordan. He's the only player without a weakness. No other player displayed that, while being as dominant.

uh...OK. So now he apparently didn't have a single weakness in his game:violin: That's why it's difficult to argue with Jordan worshippers - they don't give any valid substancious arguments, apart from blind following.

[poido123]

Plenty of people (maybe more than I expected) covered the matter fine. There is a huge number of fans whose knowledge on the GOAT candidates (for reasons also explained) begins and ends with Jordan. You can't expect anything different from them than to claim that Jordan was the "hands-down" GOAT. If you ask them to name you their top-10, you'll start seeing strange things up there, like LeBron being already there or Kobe being top-3. Ask them to expand their lists to top-50, and you'll notice names like Dwight Howard, Tony Parker, Bosh...Among valid GOAT candidates, Jordan has to have by far the biggest core of such fans (Kobe does, as well, but he's not a valid GOAT candidate).
BTW, me being a numbers guy (not solely, but in a good part), I'm getting annoyed when people have to distort them to make other candidates look worse. Kareem, for example, did not lose 3 times with HCA at Milwaukee, like someone said before, but 2. Not a big deal? Try telling a Jordan fan that Jordan lost 1 series with HCA instead of 0 or that he won 9 scoring titles instead of 10, and you'll see. Wilt's playoff scoring average of 22.54 is not rounded to 22, like so many claim the number to be, it's rounded to 23. Of course, these aren't the most glaring examples I could find (the "average height of centers in the 60's" thing is a lot worse), but you get the idea.



"Greatest team player ever": It's between Magic, Russell and Bird.

"Greatest defender ever": Jordan was great at this department, but the main talk is among centers, usually Russell, Hakeem and Wilt.

"Most instant improvement of a team": It's between Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Robinson and maybe Russell and Wilt.

"Most rings for the top 10 alltime player" is not a debate. We know the answer is Russell, except a few poor souls who don't think that Russell is top-10.

"Most Finals' MVP's" and "most rings as the best player of your team" are too close to be considered 2 completely different categories. I'd say 80-90% of the two lists overlap.

:lol These five examples reek of homerism...
Most instant improvement of a team, WTF is that? Did you pull this out of your ass, so that Jordan couldnt represent in this so called category? Get out of here man, you suck...

Greatest team player ever? :lol You think Jordan wasn't in this category? I would of thought doing whatever it takes for the team to win is considered a good team player...

Your just another dillusional ISH member who distorts the truth to fit your own agenda...Wake up! :no:

[poido123]

uh...OK. So now he apparently didn't have a single weakness in his game:violin: That's why it's difficult to argue with Jordan worshippers - they don't give any valid substancious arguments, apart from blind following.

We have, you don't listen. Substancious a word? if it is your a damn nerd...

The only weakness in Jordan's game was that he couldn't carry the team when pippen wasn't there...This isn't really a weakness on a players part, just that every good player has a good sidekick, you can't win basketball games on your own, you need someone to help you out a bit...

[Psileas]

:lol These five examples reek of homerism...
Most instant improvement of a team, WTF is that? Did you pull this out of your ass, so that Jordan couldnt represent in this so called category? Get out of here man, you suck...

Greatest team player ever? :lol You think Jordan wasn't in this category? I would of thought doing whatever it takes for the team to win is considered a good team player...

Your just another dillusional ISH member who distorts the truth to fit your own agenda...Wake up! :no:

First of all, you are the dillusional one, if you don't realize the things I wrote. Leave the :lol **** for the 18-year olds of the board.

Moving to the serious part of the post, yes I did represent these categories to show that Jordan doesn't fit anywhere, just like the poster before wanted to show that Jordan is the only player who would fit in all categories. I disagreed and showed why. What's your problem?
Among these 5 examples, only the first 2 are mine, so you're admitting yourself that the other 3 that the other guy posted are homeristic. I still won't call any of these 5 homeristic, even the last one. How is being a great team player a homeristic category? How is having the most championships as the best player of your team a homeristic category? Being able to improve your team instantly (and your team losing a great deal of strength with you out) is a pretty major category to me as well, certainly not any less important than not losing with HCA, which certain posters promote a lot.
No, I won't include Jordan among the all-time best team players, just because he improved his teams. 50 ppg Wilt also helped his team win, reaching one breath away from the NBA Finals, yet no-one calls him a team player because of this. Both young Wilt and young Jordan, for all their individual worth and team improvement, were ultra selfish and cared a lot about their stats and status. They improved their team mentality while they grew and lost part of certain individual abilities, but this mentality compared to their individual one never reached the level of Russell's one. That's why Russell is widely called the greatest team player ever.

[hayden695]

Depends, some people overrate him when they say things like he was ten times better than Bird or someone. Some underrate him when they say Kobe is as good.

If we are talking about generally as a whole I think he is rated fine. Most people agree he is the GOAT but also say that others weren't lightyears behind.

[97 bulls]

Plenty of people (maybe more than I expected) covered the matter fine. There is a huge number of fans whose knowledge on the GOAT candidates (for reasons also explained) begins and ends with Jordan. You can't expect anything different from them than to claim that Jordan was the "hands-down" GOAT. If you ask them to name you their top-10, you'll start seeing strange things up there, like LeBron being already there or Kobe being top-3. Ask them to expand their lists to top-50, and you'll notice names like Dwight Howard, Tony Parker, Bosh...Among valid GOAT candidates, Jordan has to have by far the biggest core of such fans (Kobe does, as well, but he's not a valid GOAT candidate).
BTW, me being a numbers guy (not solely, but in a good part), I'm getting annoyed when people have to distort them to make other candidates look worse. Kareem, for example, did not lose 3 times with HCA at Milwaukee, like someone said before, but 2. Not a big deal? Try telling a Jordan fan that Jordan lost 1 series with HCA instead of 0 or that he won 9 scoring titles instead of 10, and you'll see. Wilt's playoff scoring average of 22.54 is not rounded to 22, like so many claim the number to be, it's rounded to 23. Of course, these aren't the most glaring examples I could find (the "average height of centers in the 60's" thing is a lot worse), but you get the idea.



"Greatest team player ever": It's between Magic, Russell and Bird.

"Greatest defender ever": Jordan was great at this department, but the main talk is among centers, usually Russell, Hakeem and Wilt.

"Most instant improvement of a team": It's between Kareem, Bird, Duncan, Robinson and maybe Russell and Wilt.

"Most rings for the top 10 alltime player" is not a debate. We know the answer is Russell, except a few poor souls who don't think that Russell is top-10.

"Most Finals' MVP's" and "most rings as the best player of your team" are too close to be considered 2 completely different categories. I'd say 80-90% of the two lists overlap.
wow. basically i was trying to point out that jordan was top 5 in most of the categories that would qualify for being considered in the goat argument. but none of the others are in there. but ill address the qualities that you believe are goat material.

greatest team player ever: while ill admit jordan wasnt considered a team player in the beginning of his career, the road he took compared to the ones you mentioned are totally different. not to mention there are so many variables that need to be included in the team player category. the fact is that the bulls were a bad team. they had very little talent other than jordan. magic and bird and russel have always had great talent around them. and i gurantee you that if they came to a team without talent, bird would have at best 2 rings maybe 1 and magic would have 2 or 3 rings. now when jordan finally had great players on his team, yes he still scored but wasnt the total hotdog that he was in the beginning of his career. but id say what he did in the begining of his career was more out of necesity than anything else.

greatest defensive players ever: ive never seen a thread with this in it that doesnt have jordan in it. unless it greatest defensive centers ever.

most instant improvemant on a team?????????? let me start by saying that im not 18 ill be 36 this coming year. the team bird came to wasnt bad but mired in injuries pre-bird. i wasnt born to comment on kareem. duncan also came to a good team that was just mired in injuries. cant give you russel and wilt. there wasnt really much before them. but i do feel jordan should be on this list. and probably on top for two reasons. 1. jordan took a total laughing stock and made them instant playoff contenders. and 2. id debate you that the improvement of the 96 bulls over 95. id say that while improving a bad team from 20 wins to 60 is amazing, but its harder to take a 47 win team and improve to 72???????????? setting a record in the process. and be the only franchise to achieve this feat. and win a championship. that trumps the others.

most rings alltime: true its russel but thats not the end all to be all in a goat debate thus including how many rings the others won.

as far as the last 2: either way you want to put it, jordan trumps all but russel.

even by your criteria jordan is the GOAT

[97 bulls]

First of all, you are the dillusional one, if you don't realize the things I wrote. Leave the :lol **** for the 18-year olds of the board.

Moving to the serious part of the post, yes I did represent these categories to show that Jordan doesn't fit anywhere, just like the poster before wanted to show that Jordan is the only player who would fit in all categories. I disagreed and showed why. What's your problem?
Among these 5 examples, only the first 2 are mine, so you're admitting yourself that the other 3 that the other guy posted are homeristic. I still won't call any of these 5 homeristic, even the last one. How is being a great team player a homeristic category? How is having the most championships as the best player of your team a homeristic category? Being able to improve your team instantly (and your team losing a great deal of strength with you out) is a pretty major category to me as well, certainly not any less important than not losing with HCA, which certain posters promote a lot.
No, I won't include Jordan among the all-time best team players, just because he improved his teams. 50 ppg Wilt also helped his team win, reaching one breath away from the NBA Finals, yet no-one calls him a team player because of this. Both young Wilt and young Jordan, for all their individual worth and team improvement, were ultra selfish and cared a lot about their stats and status. They improved their team mentality while they grew and lost part of certain individual abilities, but this mentality compared to their individual one never reached the level of Russell's one. That's why Russell is widely called the greatest team player ever.
reading this post i see that just accused me of being a homer. that couldnt be farther from the truth psileas. i basically used the criteria that all people use in determining the best ever. if anything, id say your a homer. to be honest the criteria you used is childish and the way you used that criteria shows a distinct insecure womanly quality. "biggest instant improvemant" ??????????????????? please.

[RaceBannana]

-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57


Im sure Jordan played more than 12 games in the finals. Check those stats.

He is little bit overrated.

Remember... Overrated =/= bad
He is great, probably the greatest ever, just not as good as some people think. Some people think he is the best at everything, better dunker than vince carter, better shooter than RMiller, better postup game than Olajuwon, etc... and thats not true.

[Brunch@Five]

Kareem has just as good a case for GOAT as Jordan. He's actually even more accomplished, displayed similar individual dominance, had great stats and played well even at old age.

Also, someone said people were declaring MJ MVP candidate or top 5 in his 2nd comeback, which never happened. Noone thought he was the MVP, and he was clearly not a top 5 player.

[97 bulls]

Kareem has just as good a case for GOAT as Jordan. He's actually even more accomplished, displayed similar individual dominance, had great stats and played well even at old age.

Also, someone said people were declaring MJ MVP candidate or top 5 in his 2nd comeback, which never happened. Noone thought he was the MVP, and he was clearly not a top 5 player.
theres 2 things that hurt kareem. 1 he at best was a good defender and 2, i dont think he wins more than 2 championships with him as the best player on the team.

[stephanieg]

I think Jordan is the most entertaining player ever. The way he moved across the basketball court was...charismatic. He has a magnetism about him. There's a reason so many people came to see this guy play. Then add in the skill and the athleticism and all the dramatic playoff moments and he's the easiest player to make highlights of. This by itself can lead to overrating.

However, what is truly overrated is this idea that players are inherently winners or losers. This is all about the team situation. Team success leads to individual praise. Jordan could have easily been a career 30 ppg scorer who ended up being considered a cancer because his teams weren't good enough. This isn't an attack on Jordan, just a statement about any player who is good enough to be the best player on a title team. If somehow Barkley or KG or Ewing found themselves on 70 win teams and winning oodles of titles then they would the best of the '90s.

I'd think the 2008 Celtics are probably the best example of the myth of winners in recent memory. Forget the players. Even Doc and Ainge were considered utter GM/coaching failures until everything went the right way that year.

[Brunch@Five]

theres 2 things that hurt kareem. 1 he at best was a good defender and 2, i dont think he wins more than 2 championships with him as the best player on the team.

How's that? He already won 3 championships as the best player. Also he was certainly better than just a "good" defender. There is a reason he made All-D 1st or 2nd team 8 straight times, 5 1st teams overall, 6 2nd teams. When they started counting in '74 he had 7 straight seasons of 3+ blocks and 1+ steals per game.

[elementally morale]

By reading the answers in this thread alone you can see MJ is ovarrated. For most of his fans it is not enough if someone says: Jordan is up there, he is arguably the GOAT but there were players like Kareem and Russell for example... they don't listen to it, they aren't satisfied. There is only one thing you can tell these people they are satisfied with: MJ is #1 and noone else compares, noone else comes close, etc.

It's OK with me, actually I don't give a sh!t.

However, these people (mostly MJ fans or dudes under 25) so these people are going to be disappointed a bit in a few years, when the MEDIA decides it is time to stir things up a little, and MJ will not be the 'consensus' GOAT any more. Because what you guys call consensus is not more than the message from the media. Jordan's story sold well, but now after 10+ years and with him in the HOF the media will want another story that sells better.

Jordan may remain at the top, but he will bo no 'consensus' GOAT any more. And it's not because of Kobe. Yes, Kobe will open the floodgates, but only to give birth to new disputes on the matter. A rebirth of the Kareem legend is possible, arguing Bird or Russell is possible... among GOAT candidates, Jordan was the most recent. Of course he was labelled as the clear-cut #1. But it is just about over.

And for the record, I say: MJ is probably the greatest on my list, but I don't think it's a silly question to ask and I don't think he is head and shoulders above the rest. Kareem has just as good a case.

[elementally morale]

97 bulls

Are you sure you want to argue basketball history with psileas? You are in for a tough battle and a rather rude awakening, mate. Especially considering how hard a time you have when it comes to written English.

[artest 93]

By reading the answers in this thread alone you can see MJ is ovarrated. For most of his fans it is not enough if someone says: Jordan is up there, he is arguably the GOAT but there were players like Kareem and Russell for example... they don't listen to it, they aren't satisfied. There is only one thing you can tell these people they are satisfied with: MJ is #1 and noone else compares, noone else comes close, etc.

It's OK with me, actually I don't give a sh!t.

However, these people (mostly MJ fans or dudes under 25) so these people are going to be disappointed a bit in a few years, when the MEDIA decides it is time to stir things up a little, and MJ will not be the 'consensus' GOAT any more. Because what you guys call consensus is not more than the message from the media. Jordan's story sold well, but now after 10+ years and with him in the HOF the media will want another story that sells better.

Jordan may remain at the top, but he will bo no 'consensus' GOAT any more. And it's not because of Kobe. Yes, Kobe will open the floodgates, but only to give birth to new disputes on the matter. A rebirth of the Kareem legend is possible, arguing Bird or Russell is possible... among GOAT candidates, Jordan was the most recent. Of course he was labelled as the clear-cut #1. But it is just about over.

And for the record, I say: MJ is probably the greatest on my list, but I don't think it's a silly question to ask and I don't think he is head and shoulders above the rest. Kareem has just as good a case.

Just so you know, Mr. Wise Guy, this is far from perfect English. Since you obviously consider yourself superior to others when it comes to grammar and punctuation, and have shown a hard-nosed, failed effort here, why don't you try again? There are a number of mistakes, but I think it is important that you revisit an English classroom and ask a professor when it is appropriate to use a colon :roll:

[kshutts1]

I think I already posted in this thread (unless it's a new one, with almost the exact same title) but..

YES Jordan is overrated, but ONLY because he's considered the CONSENSUS GOAT. A very strong case could be argued for Jordan to be the GOAT, but so many people refuse to acknowledge anyone else's case, and THAT is why he's overrated.. not because he wasn't amazing (he was) but because he is NOT the clear-cut GOAT, though (again) he is considered by the majority to be head-and-shoulders above the competition.

(How many times did I repeat myself in that one paragraph? 7? 11? 32? I hope I got my point across :banana: )

I just read the first couple responses and realize that my post added nothing to the topic that hadn't been said already... sorry guys

[kshutts1]

Just so you know, Mr. Wise Guy, this is far from perfect English. Since you obviously consider yourself superior to others when it comes to grammar and punctuation, and have shown a hard-nosed, failed effort here, why don't you try again? There are a number of mistakes, but I think it is important that you revisit an English classroom and ask a professor when it is appropriate to use a colon :roll:
There ARE some mistakes, but they seem to be typing errors as opposed to grammatical errors. Perhaps you should revisit a classroom?

[kshutts1]

By reading the answers in this thread alone you can see MJ is ovarrated. For most of his fans it is not enough if someone says: Jordan is up there, he is arguably the GOAT but there were players like Kareem and Russell for example... they don't listen to it, they aren't satisfied. There is only one thing you can tell these people they are satisfied with: MJ is #1 and noone else compares, noone else comes close, etc.

It's OK with me, actually I don't give a sh!t.

However, these people (mostly MJ fans or dudes under 25) so these people are going to be disappointed a bit in a few years, when the MEDIA decides it is time to stir things up a little, and MJ will not be the 'consensus' GOAT any more. Because what you guys call consensus is not more than the message from the media. Jordan's story sold well, but now after 10+ years and with him in the HOF the media will want another story that sells better.

Jordan may remain at the top, but he will bo no 'consensus' GOAT any more. And it's not because of Kobe. Yes, Kobe will open the floodgates, but only to give birth to new disputes on the matter. A rebirth of the Kareem legend is possible, arguing Bird or Russell is possible... among GOAT candidates, Jordan was the most recent. Of course he was labelled as the clear-cut #1. But it is just about over.

And for the record, I say: MJ is probably the greatest on my list, but I don't think it's a silly question to ask and I don't think he is head and shoulders above the rest. Kareem has just as good a case.

Far as I can tell, I highlighted every mistake he made.. and most of them appear to typos.. whether it's the wrong letter in the word, or just repeating a phrase.
And the longest part that is bolded is really a ticky-tacky mistake. The words "these" and "they" don't match up with the correct subject... but EVERYONE knows who "these" and "they" refer to, hence the ticky-tackyness... but it IS wrong.
In case you can't tell, I'm bored.

[Knoe Itawl]

One things for sure, anytime you have a thread like this you can bet it will overwhelmingly be Laker/Kobe fans leading the "overrated" charge.

That tells you all you need to know.

[elementally morale]

There ARE some mistakes, but they seem to be typing errors as opposed to grammatical errors. Perhaps you should revisit a classroom?

I'm sure there are mistakes. English is my third language, so I'm not surprised or depressed. However, I detect words and expressions here all the time that are really 'interesting'. A few examples:

they're vs. their vs. there
whose vs. who is vs. who has
should of vs. should've
should've went vs. should've gone
dominant vs. dominate
etc.

The majority of these misconceptions are coming from posters whose 1st (and last) language is English, too.

But I'm perfectly aware my English is far from 'perfect'. Having said that, it still isn't as bad as it could be, is it?

[elementally morale]

There is only one thing you can tell these people they are satisfied with

What's wrong with this? I'm happy to learn, honestly. I use these kinds of expressions a lot, and if there is anything fundamentally wrong please let me know. Thanks.

(ovarrated and bo were typos, yes... and I saw noone in written form like a zillion times... is it misspelled? no one?)

[madmax]

One things for sure, anytime you have a thread like this you can bet it will overwhelmingly be Laker/Kobe fans leading the "overrated" charge.

That tells you all you need to know.

I'm far from being Kobe and Lakers fan and I still don't think Jordan is clear cut GOAt:lol Does this make me a special case or what?

[Batchoy]

I'm far from being Kobe and Lakers fan and I still don't think Jordan is clear cut GOAt:lol Does this make me a special case or what?Probably. :)

[elementally morale]

Just so you know, Mr. Wise Guy, this is far from perfect English. Since you obviously consider yourself superior to others when it comes to grammar and punctuation [...]

I don't.

The thing I wanted to point out was this: Instead of adressing the issue at hand, 97bulls was attacking psileas in person. There are a few of us familiar with psileas' posting history and general knowledge of the game, and I found it to be really rude and stupid a response on 97bulls part. His rather obvious problems with expressing himself properly were/are just a bonus. For it is one thing to commit a few mistakes here and there and it is totally another not being able to put down his thoughts in any kind of coherent manner.

That said, no I don't think my English is perfect. I know for a fact it is not.

[Mister JT]

And we, Jordan fans, are just stating the arguments for Jordan being the GOAT.

Consensus is not the same as unanimous. And the guys here who are saying that Jordan is not the consensus GOAT, but are still saying that he is the GOAT, are just strengthening the point that he is the consensus GOAT.

Right now, I say he is rated exactly where he should be, as simply the best player to ever play the game. He does not need qualifying terms like "best NBA player," "best all-around player," "best team player," "best leader," "most accomplished player," "most complete player," etc.

And I think if someone in the future challenges Jordan for the GOAT title, he would be someone who played after Jordan, like Kobe, LeBron or someone who hasn't even been born yet, and not guys from the past like Kareem, Wilt or Bird.

[Knoe Itawl]

I'm far from being Kobe and Lakers fan and I still don't think Jordan is clear cut GOAt:lol Does this make me a special case or what?

"Overwhelmingly" being the operative word in my statement.

I never said there weren't others who held that opinion. It's just that time after time, thread after thread it's that particular fanbase that leads the charge the most. I'll let you figure out why that is.

[elementally morale]

"Overwhelmingly" being the operative word in my statement.

I never said there weren't others who held that opinion. It's just that time after time, thread after thread it's that particular fanbase that leads the charge the most. I'll let you figure out why that is.

Simple. The Lakers had many great players over the years. Older fans of the team feel Kareem and Magic have to be in the discussion, and there are purist Laker-fans arguing Wilt, Bird and Russell, too.

Speaking of this board or youtube, there IS the Kobe-cult as you obviously imply. But being a Kobe fan is not the ONLY reason for any Lakers fans doing this. It is a part of the reason for a part of the fanbase... but not the only reason for all the fanbase.

[kshutts1]

What's wrong with this? I'm happy to learn, honestly. I use these kinds of expressions a lot, and if there is anything fundamentally wrong please let me know. Thanks.

(ovarrated and bo were typos, yes... and I saw noone in written form like a zillion times... is it misspelled? no one?)
"No one" should be two words.
Those others were obvious typos, as was repeating a phrase in the very first line.. I forgot the phrase but it was like... ljadlfjdj phrase x (aljdljf) phrase x aljdfljd.. (if you followed that).

As for the sentence in question:

For most of his fans it is not enough if someone says: Jordan is up there, he is arguably the GOAT but there were players like Kareem and Russell for example... they don't listen to it, they aren't satisfied. There is only one thing you can tell these people they are satisfied with: MJ is #1 and noone else compares, noone else comes close, etc.

It is wrong because the bolded "they" (and all other plural pronouns after it) are MEANT to refer to the fans... but they ACTUALLY refer to the LAST plural subject right before those words.. in this case, Kareem and Russell.

Again, it's nit-picking, as everyone here understood you, but it IS wrong.

I'm not picking on you, Morale, but rather the guy that quoted you, claiming you needed to go back to English class. Just pointed out that your mistakes were minor, few, and far between.
:cheers: to being more correct than 99% of the "native" English speakers, btw.

Also, I am sure some posters on here can rip me a new one when it comes to my grammar, but I can hold my own.

[Knoe Itawl]

Simple. The Lakers had many great players over the years. Older fans of the team feel Kareem and Magic have to be in the discussion, and there are purist Laker-fans arguing Wilt, Bird and Russell, too.

Speaking of this board or youtube, there IS the Kobe-cult as you obviously imply. But being a Kobe fan is not the ONLY reason for any Lakers fans doing this. It is a part of the reason for a part of the fanbase... but not the only reason for all the fanbase.

Your first paragraph assumes that there aren't older fans (or fans in general) who are just as familiar with those players' careers but yet still don't find the need to be as forceful as Laker/Kobe fans in proclaiming him overrated. And why aren't more Celtics fans arguing Russell then too? No, Laker fans have a special interest in Jordan being "overrated" or taken down a peg. This is why most of their opinions on the subject should be taken with a grain of salt (not saying that there aren't valid arguments to be made, however when one group is so lopsided, you have to start to explore that whether there are other factors at play rather than honest intellectual debate).

[elementally morale]

Again, it's nit-picking, as everyone here understood you, but it IS wrong.

I'm not arguing with you as you should know better, but I had [...] in there for precisely this reason. Is it not enough? This is an honest question and you are welcome to correct my mistakes any time you catch them. I'm happy to learn, really.

(Google gives 172 million results for 'noone' and 166 million for 'no one'. I know google is no authority on the subject, I just find it interesting.)

[elementally morale]

why aren't more Celtics fans arguing Russell then too?

Three reasons that are the following four:

1) Russell played a loooong time ago. Russell's supporters are more often than not Wilt's supporters, too.
2) There are fewer Celtics fans than there are Lakers fans.
3) Kobe
4) Bird doesn't have as good a case as does Kareem.

You think reason #3 is the only 'valid' reason. I say it is among the reasons but not the only one. The younger a poster is the more significance it has though, I'll give you that.

[kshutts1]

I'm not arguing with you as you should know better, but I had [...] in there for precisely this reason. Is it not enough? This is an honest question and you are welcome to correct my mistakes any time you catch them. I'm happy to learn, really.

(Google gives 172 million results for 'noone' and 166 million for 'no one'. I know google is no authority on the subject, I just find it interesting.)
The [...] just signifies a trail-off (how I interpret it) or literally means that there is more to the quote/story that is being left out, as it's unnecessary information. In your case, it let the thought "trail off" but that, in effect, ends the sentence, and even if you had ended the sentence with a period, the words would still need to relate to each other for full understanding, therefore.. yes. The [...] is not enough.

[elementally morale]

The [...] is not enough.

Noted. :cheers:

[Psileas]

wow. basically i was trying to point out that jordan was top 5 in most of the categories that would qualify for being considered in the goat argument. but none of the others are in there. but ill address the qualities that you believe are goat material.

greatest team player ever: while ill admit jordan wasnt considered a team player in the beginning of his career, the road he took compared to the ones you mentioned are totally different. not to mention there are so many variables that need to be included in the team player category. the fact is that the bulls were a bad team. they had very little talent other than jordan. magic and bird and russel have always had great talent around them. and i gurantee you that if they came to a team without talent, bird would have at best 2 rings maybe 1 and magic would have 2 or 3 rings. now when jordan finally had great players on his team, yes he still scored but wasnt the total hotdog that he was in the beginning of his career. but id say what he did in the begining of his career was more out of necesity than anything else.

greatest defensive players ever: ive never seen a thread with this in it that doesnt have jordan in it. unless it greatest defensive centers ever.

most instant improvemant on a team?????????? let me start by saying that im not 18 ill be 36 this coming year. the team bird came to wasnt bad but mired in injuries pre-bird. i wasnt born to comment on kareem. duncan also came to a good team that was just mired in injuries. cant give you russel and wilt. there wasnt really much before them. but i do feel jordan should be on this list. and probably on top for two reasons. 1. jordan took a total laughing stock and made them instant playoff contenders. and 2. id debate you that the improvement of the 96 bulls over 95. id say that while improving a bad team from 20 wins to 60 is amazing, but its harder to take a 47 win team and improve to 72???????????? setting a record in the process. and be the only franchise to achieve this feat. and win a championship. that trumps the others.

most rings alltime: true its russel but thats not the end all to be all in a goat debate thus including how many rings the others won.

as far as the last 2: either way you want to put it, jordan trumps all but russel.

even by your criteria jordan is the GOAT

On greatest team player ever: I don't want to pull a Sam Smith and start searching about certain quotes from teammates or certain things Jordan did to teammates and I realize that the roster of the mid-80's Bulls was mediocre, but this doesn't change the fact that, under these circumstances, Jordan took no different approach than other players (before and after him) who played for mediocre teams and were still considered ballhogs. When Wilt averaged 40 or 50 on teams with mediocre rosters, he was (and is) considered such. Why Jordan isn't?

On GOAT defender: People who value peripheral and inside defense equally may argue for him. For me, that's like arguing a non-guard like Sabonis or Barkley to be a real GOAT candidate for best passer ever, because they sure were such for their positions. But in the end, I find it hypocritical to think that only a couple of guards could pass better than them. Similarly, I value inside defense higher and find it difficult for a non-big man to crack the top-5. I'd include him in the second notch, but if 3-5 players remained for the final debate, he wouldn't be among them.

On instant improvement: The '79 Celtics, despite some good names playing there, sucked just as much. So did the '69 Bucks. Bird and Kareem made them instant title contenders. I'll give you '96 Jordan, but not at 100%, because Jordan wasn't a rookie any more and because of the acquirement of Rodman (no way do I think that the '95 Bulls plus Jordan alone would win 72 or 69 games).
PS. I don't know why you mentioned your age. I was responding to poido123. Except if him and you are the same person, which I hope you aren't.


reading this post i see that just accused me of being a homer. that couldnt be farther from the truth psileas. i basically used the criteria that all people use in determining the best ever. if anything, id say your a homer. to be honest the criteria you used is childish and the way you used that criteria shows a distinct insecure womanly quality. "biggest instant improvemant" ??????????????????? please.

You hurried too much: I wasn't the one claiming these categories to be homeristic - on the contrary, poido123 used some of your criteria that I mentioned, blended them with mine and called them all so. This means either that he does consider the criteria of yours to be homeristic or that he had been paying zero attention to what I wrote and just gave out some derogatory comments.
Being a great team player is a childish/womanish criterion? Really? Without getting into any basketball analysis, since you claim you know some things about basketball boards and articles, you should have noticed this term quite a lot of times. As for the instant improvement thing, while not equally important, you may well consider it an answer to the growing "he lost X series with HCA" trend in these boards. :D

[elementally morale]

Jordan took no different approach than other players (before and after him) who played for mediocre teams and were still considered ballhogs.

Yes, Jordan was considered a huge ballhog for the first part of his career. He was argued to be one even in his first few championship years, but after '92 it was a mere label. He started off as a ballhog and became less and less one as the rings arrived and he learned a lot. He deserved the label early on, though. Later, he matured. Most great players do.

[97 bulls]

How's that? He already won 3 championships as the best player. Also he was certainly better than just a "good" defender. There is a reason he made All-D 1st or 2nd team 8 straight times, 5 1st teams overall, 6 2nd teams. When they started counting in '74 he had 7 straight seasons of 3+ blocks and 1+ steals per game.
he was a good defensive center. he wasnt wilt defensively or russel or mutombo or olajuwan. hes never included in a discussion for alltime great defender. in fact, i think theres about 10 that were better defenders than kareem. id say he was the best player on 2 championships.

[poido123]

Kareem is very controversial as a GOAT candidate, he played many more seasons than Jordan, he dominated with his size/longarms and sky hook that was impossible to block, and his career crosses over into that other weaker league, think it was ABA or something, which for me blemishes his resume...

I believe that years played is a determining factor too, and I also speculate that Jordan had a) Stayed with the Bulls or b) not retired or c) played 19 seasons like Kareem, he would of certainly added a few more rings, ...

Laker fans or Jordan haters will drum up these other candidates, but one thing is for sure, Jordan comes out on top in nearly every basketball achievement and skill in the game, where others considered GOAT were missing from some of the criteria lists...That why most regard MJ as greatest...

[97 bulls]

Are you sure you want to argue basketball history with psileas? You are in for a tough battle and a rather rude awakening, mate. Especially considering how hard a time you have when it comes to written English.
like ive told others, if you want to be my secretary and correct my mistakes, have at it.

[elementally morale]

like ive told others, if you want to be my secretary and correct my mistakes, have at it.

That would be a dream come true for me, mylord. Are you sure I'm worthy of such honors, though?

[Mihmus]

you are insane michael jordan defines basketball. that guy was just not human he would do things that nobody can do... except 1 other person and his name is kobe bryant

[97 bulls]

On greatest team player ever: I don't want to pull a Sam Smith and start searching about certain quotes from teammates or certain things Jordan did to teammates and I realize that the roster of the mid-80's Bulls was mediocre, but this doesn't change the fact that, under these circumstances, Jordan took no different approach than other players (before and after him) who played for mediocre teams and were still considered ballhogs. When Wilt averaged 40 or 50 on teams with mediocre rosters, he was (and is) considered such. Why Jordan isn't?

On GOAT defender: People who value peripheral and inside defense equally may argue for him. For me, that's like arguing a non-guard like Sabonis or Barkley to be a real GOAT candidate for best passer ever, because they sure were such for their positions. But in the end, I find it hypocritical to think that only a couple of guards could pass better than them. Similarly, I value inside defense higher and find it difficult for a non-big man to crack the top-5. I'd include him in the second notch, but if 3-5 players remained for the final debate, he wouldn't be among them.

On instant improvement: The '79 Celtics, despite some good names playing there, sucked just as much. So did the '69 Bucks. Bird and Kareem made them instant title contenders. I'll give you '96 Jordan, but not at 100%, because Jordan wasn't a rookie any more and because of the acquirement of Rodman (no way do I think that the '95 Bulls plus Jordan alone would win 72 or 69 games).
PS. I don't know why you mentioned your age. I was responding to poido123. Except if him and you are the same person, which I hope you aren't.



You hurried too much: I wasn't the one claiming these categories to be homeristic - on the contrary, poido123 used some of your criteria that I mentioned, blended them with mine and called them all so. This means either that he does consider the criteria of yours to be homeristic or that he had been paying zero attention to what I wrote and just gave out some derogatory comments.
Being a great team player is a childish/womanish criterion? Really? Without getting into any basketball analysis, since you claim you know some things about basketball boards and articles, you should have noticed this term quite a lot of times. As for the instant improvement thing, while not equally important, you may well consider it an answer to the growing "he lost X series with HCA" trend in these boards. :D
then i stand corrected psileas. i thought you were calling me a homer which im not. i feel jordan is the best ever based on the criteria people use. can or will he be knocked of? i sure hope so. i would love to see another career similar or even better than jordans. and ive even stated that lebron james has that chance.

as to your other replies, i called 80s jordan a ballhog in my post. so im agreeing with you. and unfortunately for wilt he didnt win as much as other alltime greats.

as for defense: coming from a person who plays basketball. both are just as important. you may have a great defensive center but if hes surrounded by terrible defensive perimeter players then he gonna get alot of fouls called against him. thus rendering him almost useless. not to mention the help d that good perimeter defenders like jordan and pippen can provide. and i think we both agree on the importance of centers defensively. and maybe he doesnt control the defensive side of the ball fom the perimeter like a center but he was damn close. in fact, the only perimeter player that i feel dominated on defense like a great center was pippen. but for the argument, jordan was just as good perimeter defender as wilt and russel down low, and better than kareem.

on instant winning: i sincerely feel that at their worse, the celtics in 79 were a 45-48 win team with a relatively injury free team. that along with bird was the reason for the increase. i totally agree with you on kareem what he did for the bucks was amazing.

and once again i apologize for the insult and respect you for not replying in an ignorant way. when we disagree, ill keep it basketball.:cheers:

[97 bulls]

That would be a dream come true for me, mylord. Are you sure I'm worthy of such honors, though?
lol no need for the act of obiesance. just correct my spelling and grammer

[fefe]

IMO when people say that MJ is the GOAT, the best ever without question, they are overrating him a bit. Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, O, Shaq etc should be in the conversation.

When people try to put Kobe on MJ's level then MJ is grossly underrated...

[imdaman99]

I absolutely hate MJ, but no I don't think hes overrated. As of right now he is the GOAT, but hopefully its a different answer 10 years from now.

[YAWN]

One things for sure, anytime you have a thread like this you can bet it will overwhelmingly be Laker/Kobe fans leading the "overrated" charge.

That tells you all you need to know.

that there are a lot of laker fans on ish? :confusedshrug:

[kshutts1]

that there are a lot of laker fans on ish? :confusedshrug:
I've waited long enough... who is your avatar? She is incredible.

[Showtime]

I absolutely hate MJ, but no I don't think hes overrated. As of right now he is the GOAT, but hopefully its a different answer 10 years from now.
It's funny how people think everybody who defends Jordan as GOAT is a MJ fanatic. I personally couldn't stand him when he was playing, and I still think he's an ego maniacal jackass. But I can still be objective enough to recognize greatness.

[cotdt]

Jordan was not really a good team player, as he punched teammates Steve Kerr and Will Perdue during practice and ran coach Doug Collins because he wanted a more team-oriented system. He wanted to run a one-man show for the first several years of his career.

Kobe also treated Kwame Brown better than Jordan did:


The most obvious way to show how bad of a teammate Jordan was is to look at how he treated Kwame Brown when Jordan was on the Wizards.

At the time, Jordan was still a good player, but past his prime and in a situation where he could lead a young and rebuilding Wizards team with a talented, first overall pick in Brown.

However, instead of supporting and trying to lift up Brown's spirits after some struggles that were bound to occur as he was coming out of high school, Jordan called Brown "a flaming f*g*ot" and he used several other derogatory words towards Brown repeatedly, which obviously destroyed Brown's confidence, as he most likely idolized Jordan.

This shows that even after his prime, Jordan only cared about himself, and his attitude towards Kwame is a major reason why Kwame became a bust, as he has never been confident in his game, which resulted in him not being able to handle all of Jordan's insults and the pressure of a franchise on his shoulders.

Source: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/311555-why-kobejordan-debate-is-closer-than-it-seems

[Leviathon1121]

Thank you for your utterly useless post cotd, Kobe is not better then Jordan, and I know how that eats at you every single day.

Jordan is overrated a bit, and underrated a bit. IMO he has the best combination of skills/achievements which is why I think he is the GOAT.

[artest 93]

There ARE some mistakes, but they seem to be typing errors as opposed to grammatical errors. Perhaps you should revisit a classroom?

:roll: An attempt at saving your boyfriend? Spelling errors are not the only problems with his post. There are more. And FYI, if you don't know how colons are best used, don't waste my time. English is my second language but I am smarter than you will ever be. Probably smarter than your whole family, too. Combined. :oldlol:

[elementally morale]

I am smarter than you will ever be

I'm sure you are. Everyone else here is, too. :applause:

[plowking]

I'm sure you are. Everyone else here is, too. :applause:

Reading your posts makes me burst out in laughter. You try to appear as a non biased cool headed Laker fan, though in actual fact it seems to deeply trouble you that Jordan is considered the GOAT.

You claim Magic has a case for GOAT? Sure, if Michael Jordan didn't exist...

You claim Kareem has a case for GOAT? No... and to the poster who said he achieved more than Jordan... where does this myth come from? It's like the myth that Duncan has better longevity than Shaq.

[Roundball_Rock]

You try to appear as a non biased cool headed Laker fan, though in actual fact it seems
to deeply trouble you that Jordan is considered the GOAT.


He is biased--as everyone is to a degree--but he cares little about who is designated the GOAT or all-time rankings.


You claim Magic has a case for GOAT? Sure, if Michael Jordan didn't exist...

You claim Kareem has a case for GOAT? No... and to the poster who said he achieved more than Jordan... where does this myth come from?

:wtf: Kareem has no case for GOAT? Myth?

Magic has a case, albeit a weak one imo. Too bad he retired early due to HIV. How many more MVP's did he have in him? Another ring? Probably not another championship but perhaps another MVP?

Time out. Mods, can we insert a quote of the previous post into the OP? That really answers the original question.

plowking, why are you such a zealot on the question of GOAT? You can't see that people have cases over MJ in basketball or Schumacher in F1. Do you follow any other sports? I bet you are like that in those sports too. Why? One guy>>>>>>>EVERYONE else who ever played/raced in that sport?


I've waited long enough... who is your avatar? She is incredible.

I've been thinking the same thing for a while too!

[triangleoffense]

I'm sure you are. Everyone else here is, too. :applause:

I don't know if this would be the right definition of ironic, but the fact that your trying to be sarcastic when what you just said is so true has to have a bit of irony in it.

What happened to your other account, Jello?

[catch24]

Slightly, but that's only when his homers think he can walk on water. To me, though, he's the best overall candidate for GOAT (best argument at least).

[elementally morale]

You claim Magic has a case for GOAT?

No. Actually, I think Bird was better.



You claim Kareem has a case for GOAT?

Yes, I do. I think he has a very good case.

[LebrickJames84']

michael jordan treated people and still does like trash. he is still GOAT and we should all bow down to him.

[elementally morale]

I don't know if this would be the right definition of ironic, but the fact that your trying to be sarcastic when what you just said is so true has to have a bit of irony in it.

I have no doubts. However, I'm not sure you are qualified when it comes to deciding that. As a matter of fact, I'm not very much into losing sleep over what some username thinks of my username on the Internet. In case you are that smart however, you are welcome to PM me. I have some scientific work waiting for well trained individuals and I'm not even kidding. It pays well, no joke.




What happened to your other account, Jello?


I have two answers to this question. The first one is that I have 25 other accounts and I'm not sure why you singled out the 'Jello' one. The second is that I have never had more accounts simultaneously. I started off as elementally school at ezboard. Then I had Salto Morale after I had reached 10k posts with ES. Still ezboard. When this new board was created I signed up under this one and I didn't see the need to change it since. I also didn't see why I should need a new account. I still don't.

Decide for yourself which of the above is true.

[plowking]

He is biased--as everyone is to a degree--but he cares little about who is designated the GOAT or all-time rankings.



:wtf: Kareem has no case for GOAT? Myth?

Magic has a case, albeit a weak one imo. Too bad he retired early due to HIV. How many more MVP's did he have in him? Another ring? Probably not another championship but perhaps another MVP?

Time out. Mods, can we insert a quote of the previous post into the OP? That really answers the original question.

plowking, why are you such a zealot on the question of GOAT? You can't see that people have cases over MJ in basketball or Schumacher in F1. Do you follow any other sports? I bet you are like that in those sports too. Why? One guy>>>>>>>EVERYONE else who ever played/raced in that sport?



I've been thinking the same thing for a while too!

I'm a zealot on the question of GOAT? :roll:

I don't care, hence the straight forward easy answer. You're the one going into all types of stats and crap just to disprove Jordan as the GOAT, which he is; other guys were great, but not Jordan great.
You care too much about rankings, or should I say too much about Jordan being ranked number 1 and it bothers you.

People are so quick to throw around names such as Jordan homer/groupie which you have called me several times, when in fact I hate the guy. Probably so much as to say he is my least favorite player ever. I can still put that hate aside to recognize he is clearly (not in the sense that he was way better than anyone else, but in the sense he stood out and did things nobody else did) the best player ever to play.

[elementally morale]

it seems to deeply trouble you that Jordan is considered the GOAT


Jordan troubles me not. There is a certain way of thinking not leading anywhere that I have minor problems with. To summarize: It is troubling to see when a set of people want everyone to agree on something that is opinion-based and not entirely factual. It is troubling to see when someone is not confident enough to give others freedom as to what to think about something. As if nobody in the world could rightfully think there were basketball players just as good and accomplished anyone else was.

It goes way beyond basketball as it really is a mindset.

On a sidenote, why should I (or anyone else for that matter) care whether 70% or 92% of the people here name MJ as the GOAT? It tends to change all the time. I'm not MJ's agent and I'm not anyone else's agent either. I'm not making any money off of the 'consensus at ISH'. So I'm interested a lot more in the process of thinking than in the actual results.

[plowking]

All well and good, but people like yourself can't come to grips that after looking at it from a perspective there wasn't a player better statistically, individually, or achieved more. That's where your "opinion" doesn't look so good.

[Roundball_Rock]

All well and good, but people like yourself can't come to grips that after looking at it from a perspective there wasn't a player better statistically, individually, or achieved more. That's where your "opinion" doesn't look so good.

Unbelievable. What else can you say in response to such a post?


I'm a zealot on the question of GOAT?


All well and good, but people like yourself can't come to grips that after looking at it from a perspective there wasn't a player better statistically, individually, or achieved more. That's where your "opinion" doesn't look so good.

Wow. I'll let a juxtaposition of those posts speak for themselves.

It isn't just Jordan. You did the same thing regarding Schumacher. They may be the GOATs but there are a few others with legit cases too. Do you follow any other sports?


in the sense he stood out and did things nobody else did

This?

http://www.flystylelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/space-jam-c10053900.jpeg

:confusedshrug:

[elementally morale]

All well and good, but people like yourself can't come to grips that after looking at it from a perspective there wasn't a player better statistically, individually, or achieved more.


In the other thread you are arguing Kobe is better than LeBron. I just saw that. People may as well argue (and do) that you can't come to grips with the fact that LeBron is just better. What do you say?




That's where your "opinion" doesn't look so good.

I don't have an opinion so that I look good. Remember: I'm a username for you. You are a username for me. It's not that important to me what your username thinks of my username. It should also not be of your concern the other way round. We have opinions. For some reason we feel like sharing them. But at the end of the day, we both go to sleep and it doesn't matter what we think of the other person's opinion. What's more, in the end we all die. Even the (arguable) GOAT. Right at that point (both of us dead as well as the subject of our dispute) any signifcance this argument ever had vanishes.

As we are all virtual entities here, let's think of death as the moment someone formats the hard drive of the ISH server. It can happen any day. Should I feel that much worried as to what another username thinks here in light of all this?

[poido123]

In the other thread you are arguing Kobe is better than LeBron. I just saw that. People may as well argue (and do) that you can't come to grips with the fact that LeBron is just better. What do you say?





I don't have an opinion so that I look good. Remember: I'm a username for you. You are a username for me. It's not that important to me what your username thinks of my username. It should also not be of your concern the other way round. We have opinions. For some reason we feel like sharing them. But at the end of the day, we both go to sleep and it doesn't matter what we think of the other person's opinion. What's more, in the end we all die. Even the (arguable) GOAT. Right at that point (both of us dead as well as the subject of our dispute) any signifcance this argument ever had vanishes.

As we are all virtual entities here, let's think of death as the moment someone formats the hard drive of the ISH server. It can happen any day. Should I feel that much worried as to what another username thinks here in light of all this?


Hmmm, Plowking is right on both points, MJ GOAT and Kobe better than Lebron...Until Lebron wins titles, or truly leads his team to success, then Ill buy into the Lebron is better than Kobe...And if any of you know what I post about and who I am, will know that Im one of the biggest haters of Kobe, but I don't let my hate get in the way of facts...

[elementally morale]

Hmmm, Plowking is right on both points


No need for having ISH then. We should all just ask plowking when there is something we can't decide ourselves.

Sounds good to me. Plowking, you're in?

[poido123]

Unbelievable. What else can you say in response to such a post?





Wow. I'll let a juxtaposition of those posts speak for themselves.

It isn't just Jordan. You did the same thing regarding Schumacher. They may be the GOATs but there are a few others with legit cases too. Do you follow any other sports?



This?

http://www.flystylelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/space-jam-c10053900.jpeg

:confusedshrug:

Let me guess, your one of those that think Jordan's popularity and GOAT props is due to the media and marketing endorsements???

[poido123]

No need for having ISH then. We should all just ask plowking when there is something we can't decide ourselves.

Sounds good to me. Plowking, you're in?

Well this is a discussion board, and Ive yet to read someone tell me who and why someone is GOAT over Jordan...

[elementally morale]

Well this is a discussion board, and Ive yet to read someone tell me who and why someone is GOAT over Jordan...

Perhaps you should read this thread. There were some people talking about why it is not ridiculous to claim others. On the other hand... why should you read such opinions? You think MJ is the GOAT and this answer obviously satisfies you. So why bother knowing why others disagree? Will they change your opinion? For some reason I doubt it.

You think it is Jordan and that is perfectly fine to think if you ask me. No pressing need to know why others don't share your views. Nothing is going to change either way, neither of us will lose any sleep this way or the other.

[Mister JT]

Let me guess, your one of those that think Jordan's popularity and GOAT props is due to the media and marketing endorsements???

Haha...

If Jordan gets props from the media, the league or his fellow players, it's dismissed as overhyping and mass marketing to make money.

If other players get props from the media, the league or fellow players, it's a validation of the greatness of the player, and gets quoted on ISH all the time.

[plowking]

No need for having ISH then. We should all just ask plowking when there is something we can't decide ourselves.

Sounds good to me. Plowking, you're in?

You seem to have some fascination with me. You called me out in a random thread before how all my posts are somehow related to Wade and the Heat... Now you go on to talk about Lebron and Kobe and my opinions on the matter...
You seem to try and conjour up things that aren't there and make other posters look like the bad guy by playing the Sherlock Holmes role. Though honestly you simply come off weird and disturbed...

[monkeypox]

When you got so many people saying that no one will ever be as good, then yes he is overrated.

[poido123]

Perhaps you should read this thread. There were some people talking about why it is not ridiculous to claim others. On the other hand... why should you read such opinions? You think MJ is the GOAT and this answer obviously satisfies you. So why bother knowing why others disagree? Will they change your opinion? For some reason I doubt it.

You think it is Jordan and that is perfectly fine to think if you ask me. No pressing need to know why others don't share your views. Nothing is going to change either way, neither of us will lose any sleep this way or the other.

It's called bringing back school for the young and uneducated...:pimp:

[Brunch@Five]

Has anyone really brought a coherent argument against Kareem other than that he wasn't as good a defender as Hakeem, Wilt and Russel? MJ wasn't neither
His stats, accolades and impact are certainly up to par with those of Jordan.
He made 15 All-NBA teams back when there were only 1st and 2nd. 6 MVPs. 6 titles. Prime season of 35/17/5/3+ blocks.

[Duncan21formvp]

Has anyone really brought a coherent argument against Kareem other than that he wasn't as good a defender as Hakeem, Wilt and Russel? MJ wasn't neither
His stats, accolades and impact are certainly up to par with those of Jordan.
He made 15 All-NBA teams back when there were only 1st and 2nd. 6 MVPs. 6 titles. Prime season of 35/17/5/3+ blocks.

His teammate won more finals mvp's than he did and no other player in history had a teammate win as many season mvp's than Kareem did.

Magic won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's playing with Kareem. Imagine how many titles any player would win if they had a player like that on their team along with their own star.

And Kareem had to be traded to a winning organization.

[Brunch@Five]

His teammate won more finals mvp's than he did and no other player in history had a teammate win as many season mvp's than Kareem did.

Magic won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's playing with Kareem. Imagine how many titles any player would win if they had a player like that on their team along with their own star.

And Kareem had to be traded to a winning organization.

Kareem was about 34 years old when Magic became the better player. Magic and Bird didn't even play this long. Also, how does having a better teammate make yourself a worse player?
Kareem was on 3 60+ win teams , won a title, went to the finals and 3 WCF before the Lakers even drafted Magic. Won a 2 more titles and went to 1 finals before Magic became a better player than him.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kareem was about 34 years old when Magic became the better player. Magic and Bird didn't even play this long. Also, how does having a better teammate make yourself a worse player?
Kareem was on 3 60+ win teams , won a title, went to the finals and 3 WCF before the Lakers even drafted Magic. Won a 2 more titles and went to 1 finals before Magic became a better player than him.

Still, his own damn teammate had more finals mvp's than him, and no other player has ever had a teammate with as many season mvp's either.

[Glide2keva]

Jordan troubles me not. There is a certain way of thinking not leading anywhere that I have minor problems with. To summarize: It is troubling to see when a set of people want everyone to agree on something that is opinion-based and not entirely factual. It is troubling to see when someone is not confident enough to give others freedom as to what to think about something. As if nobody in the world could rightfully think there were basketball players just as good and accomplished anyone else was.You mean the way kobe fans do? They are notorious for this thinking and putting down every other player to prop kobe up.


It goes way beyond basketball as it really is a mindset.

On a sidenote, why should I (or anyone else for that matter) care whether 70% or 92% of the people here name MJ as the GOAT? It tends to change all the time. I'm not MJ's agent and I'm not anyone else's agent either. I'm not making any money off of the 'consensus at ISH'. So I'm interested a lot more in the process of thinking than in the actual results.Sure you are

[Glide2keva]

Haha...

If Jordan gets props from the media, the league or his fellow players, it's dismissed as overhyping and mass marketing to make money.

If other players get props from the media, the league or fellow players, it's a validation of the greatness of the player, and gets quoted on ISH all the time.
Ironic, isn't it?

[OmniStrife]

Michael Jordan made me register on ISH just so I could reply to this ridiculous thread...

I could go on describing his skills / awards / records for ages, but hell... That's a guy who has scored 43 pts in his 40th year on this Earth.

[Brandon Roy]

Some people overrate Jordan and some people don't.

I think he gets overrated when people act like he never had bad games. I also think that he gets overrated when people can't admit that some players are/were better at certain things.

Overall, he's probably the greatest player ever though.

[Russell11rings]

Well this is a discussion board, and Ive yet to read someone tell me who and why someone is GOAT over Jordan...

http://nbachillset.web7.hubspot.com/Portals/72146/images//russell%20rings-resized-600.jpg

Russell won practically every year. Jordan lost most of the time. Jordan may be second but Russell is the GOAT.

[97 bulls]

http://nbachillset.web7.hubspot.com/Portals/72146/images//russell%20rings-resized-600.jpg

Russell won practically every year. Jordan lost most of the time. Jordan may be second but Russell is the GOAT.
how can a center who shot mid to low 40 percent for his career be the best ever? i honestly see no reason why ben wallace or dennis rodman couldnt have done the same. considering the team he had.

[Alhazred]

how can a center who shot mid to low 40 percent for his career be the best ever? i honestly see no reason why ben wallace or dennis rodman couldnt have done the same. considering the team he had.

Well, to be fair Russell was also a very good passer and was a pretty competent scorer during his prime(Plus field goal percentages were much lower during his era). He was much more versatile than either Wallace or Rodman and was even able to act as player-coach during his last three seasons.

Also, I think the story below sums up Bill's impact on the team pretty well.

[QUOTE]In the following 1958

[97 bulls]

Well, to be fair Russell was also a very good passer and was a pretty competent scorer during his prime(Plus field goal percentages were much lower during his era). He was much more versatile than either Wallace or Rodman and was even able to act as player-coach during his last three seasons.

Also, I think the story below sums up Bill's impact on the team pretty well.



That all being said, I still consider Jordan my personal choice for GOAT, but I wouldn't fault someone for picking Bill over him.
true. but all things being equal, i dont see much of a difference. russel in the modern era would shoot a much higher fg% but his rebounds would be similar to that of rodmans and wallaces avg and he be the great defender that they were.

[Alhazred]

true. but all things being equal, i dont see much of a difference. russel in the modern era would shoot a much higher fg% but his rebounds would be similar to that of rodmans and wallaces avg and he be the great defender that they were.

His assist averages would most likely be good for a big man as well. Here's a projection of mine of what I think Bill could have averaged in today's game.

15 ppg 50% shooting
13 rpg
4 apg
2.5 bpg
1.4 spg

Of course, this is all just speculation.

[HighFlyer23]

jordan is the most arrogant, narcissistic, fake, self absorbed, a-hole to ever player the game as well as the greatest to ever play the game


but he's still a b!tch and a n00b so fu<k him

[97 bulls]

His assist averages would most likely be good for a big man as well. Here's a projection of mine of what I think Bill could have averaged in today's game.

15 ppg 50% shooting
13 rpg
4 apg
2.5 bpg
1.4 spg

Of course, this is all just speculation.
im on board. the points might be high in my opinion. id say 10 to 12. and 15 to 17 rebounds and dwight howard like defense on 55% shooting.

[Alhazred]

im on board. the points might be high in my opinion. id say 10 to 12. and 15 to 17 rebounds and dwight howard like defense on 55% shooting.

Yeah, I may have overestimated his point totals. Glad you agree on everything else, though. :)

[elementally morale]

You seem to have some fascination with me. You called me out in a random thread before how all my posts are somehow related to Wade and the Heat... Now you go on to talk about Lebron and Kobe and my opinions on the matter...
You seem to try and conjour up things that aren't there and make other posters look like the bad guy by playing the Sherlock Holmes role. Though honestly you simply come off weird and disturbed...

I have no fascination with you, sorry to burst a bubble. I had a question, you gave me an answer then and I left it at there.

I am weird. I'm not disturbed in the least though. By the way, is there a problem with someone being weird? It has to be a cultural thing, but where I live 'weird' is something on the neighborhood of 'strange' and not 'like everyone else' and is neither a compliment nor a bad thing. Is being weird a bad thing in the US?

And no, I don't think you are a bad guy.

[elementally morale]

You mean the way kobe fans do? They are notorious for this thinking and putting down every other player to prop kobe up.

Kobe was brought up a few times in this thread. All his mentions have one thing in common: It was always someone else bringing him into the conversation, not me.



Sure you are

I sure am. I'm here for two things:

1) fun
2) to take a closer look at the way of thinking

Basketball is a nice topic, because the way of thinking goes way beyond the certain issue (basketball) and at the same time the topic itself is entertaining and not very serious.

So trust me: I'm here to know HOW you guys think. As for WHAT you think... not that important to me. If you listen to me you think whatever you want.

[godofgods]

He was. But he wasn't as overrated as Kobe is now.

[ThaRegul8r]

Kareem was about 34 years old when Magic became the better player. Magic and Bird didn't even play this long. Also, how does having a better teammate make yourself a worse player?

Kareem was on 3 60+ win teams , won a title, went to the finals and 3 WCF before the Lakers even drafted Magic. Won a 2 more titles and went to 1 finals before Magic became a better player than him.

Still, his own damn teammate had more finals mvp's than him, and no other player has ever had a teammate with as many season mvp's either.

Kareem was robbed of the 1980 Finals MVP. Magic had an incredible Game 6, but Kareem was the reason the Lakers were up 3-2 in the first place: 33.4 points on 54.9 percent shooting, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocked shots and 3.2 assists in 40.6 minutes per game through the first five games. 40 points on 16-for-24 shooting (66.7%), 15 rebounds and four blocked shots in 41 minutes in a 103-103 Game 5 win.

[Alhazred]

Kareem was robbed of the 1980 Finals MVP. Magic had an incredible Game 6, but Kareem was the reason the Lakers were up 3-2 in the first place: 33.4 points on 54.9 percent shooting, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 blocked shots and 3.2 assists in 40.6 minutes per game through the first five games. 40 points on 16-for-24 shooting (66.7%), 15 rebounds and four blocked shots in 41 minutes in a 103-103 Game 5 win.

Can the Finals MVP be shared between two players? If so, then it should have been done in this case. As good as Kareem's numbers were, Magic's game 6 was amazing. How many times in NBA history has a rookie point guard switched to center for a game six and then lead his team to victory minus their team captain?

[icemanfan]

MJ=greatest there ever was and probably ever will be and anyone old enough to have seen in person knows that and anyone whose balls haven't dropped yet will argue that its not true because
#1 they did not see
#2 there ball have not dropped and their IQ is a little weak.