Isiah, Stockton, Pippen, Drexler, Ewing, Payton

[Duncan21formvp]

How would you rank them?



This is Bill Simmons List:

23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton
39. Ewing
40. Payton
43. Drexler


All of those players pretty much played in the same era as well.


Which list looks more reasonable and accurate?

BTW, I'm kinda surprised to see Stockton 15 spots higher than Payton on Bill Simmons list and also Pippen 15 spots higher than Ewing

[WeaponX2024]

1. Pippen
2. Stockton
3. Isiah
4. Ewing
5. Payton
6. Drexler

All of these guys are without question in the Top 40 though.

[HylianNightmare]

gimme pippen over isiah and it looks good

[EricForman]

1. Pippen
2. Stockton
3. Isiah
4. Ewing
5. Payton
6. Drexler

All of these guys are without question in the Top 40 though.

isiah was best player on two title teams. he battled magic/bird throughout the 80s.

there is no way in hell stockton is higher than zeke.

[WeaponX2024]

isiah was best player on two title teams. he battled magic/bird throughout the 80s.

there is no way in hell stockton is higher than zeke.
Actually, If I recall correctly Joe Dumars was considered every bit as good from a talent standpoint. However, nobody will debate on who the leader was on the team, It was Isiah. I honestly prefer Stockton because of his defense and becasue he was pretty much the perfect player.

[Roundball_Rock]

isiah was best player on two title teams. he battled magic/bird throughout the 80s.

there is no way in hell stockton is higher than zeke.

Isiah may be better but :oldlol: @ how many people love to chant "best player on a championship team!" as if that inherently makes them a better player. Kevin Garnett>Dr. J? Chauncey Billups>Oscar Robertson?


there is no way in hell stockton is higher than zeke.

Stockton has a case. Longevity matters to some. Isiah was out the league when he was, what, 33? This is why the "80's" qualifier was needed. Isiah and hence his team tailed off considerably after 1991. First round upset in 92' and losing records in the following two. Stockton had amazing longevity.


Actually, If I recall correctly Joe Dumars was considered every bit as good from a talent standpoint. However, nobody will debate on who the leader was on the team, It was Isiah.

You raise a good question that the "best player" crowd fails to realize. The logical question then is what was the gap from the "best player" to the "second best player" and perhaps also the "third best player" on some teams. If one rates Isiah a 8 on a scale of 0-10 and Dumars a 7 is that really a big deal? Dumars was an excellent defender. No one has ever praised Isiah's defense. Dumars was a great shooter. Isiah's three point shooting was comedic fodder in Simmon's book. Of course, Isiah was better but my point is you can't just simply declare Player X better than Player Y and be done with it.

From what I have seen of Isiah and the Pistons, admittedly not that much since I wasn't old enough to watch them live (well I was but I was too young to know what was going on), and read about Isiah and Dumars (who I did see since he remained an effective player into the 90's--he was even an all-star in 97' or 98') I would rate them this way:

Passing: Isiah>Dumars
Leadership: Isiah>Dumars
Clutch: Isiah>Dumars (although Dumars did have a great finals and won a FMVP in one of Detroit's championship years. Isiah, though, is legendary for taking over at the end of games.)
Scoring: Isiah>Dumars
Shooting: Dumars>Isiah
Defense: Dumars>Isiah
Longevity: Dumars>Isiah

As to the OP:

1) Pippen
2) Isiah
3) Stockton
4) Payton
5) Ewing
6) Drexler


BTW, I'm kinda surprised to see Stockton 15 spots higher than Payton on Bill Simmons list and also Pippen 15 spots higher than Ewing

Why are you surprised? Pippen simply was better than Ewing and accomplished more, both in terms of individual and team achievement. Pippen was the best player of his generation at his position; Ewing was 3rd or 4th. Pippen's individual achievement resulted in this during his peak:

All-NBA voting rank from 1994-1996: 1st, 3rd, 2nd (behind MJ)
All-Defense voting rank from 1994-1996: 1st, 1st, 1st

I haven't seen the results from all-NBA voting in 97' (Pippen remained great in 97' but had declined slightly) but an educated guess would be that he finished 6th or 7th. Regarding all-D Voting, he was first yet again in 1997.

Yet some people today think he never was a top 5 player, Gasol is as 90% as good as him, Pierce better than him? :wtf:

Ewing in contrast was all-NBA first team once and never all-D first team. He did make six all-NBA second teams and three all-D second teams. However, Pippen made three all-NBA first teams, two second teams (would have been three if he didn't miss half the season in 98' yet he still made the third team) along with two third teams (Ewing had no third team selections). Pippen made eight all-D first teams and two all-D second teams.

With respect to team achievement, the Jordan card doesn't fly, either. Ewing came within one shot of a championship in 94' (after the refs gifted him the Chicago series). He had an abysmal finals. If he had even a decent performance he would have been a champion. Pippen flirted with averaging a triple double in half his finals (21/9/8, 21/9/7, 21/8/8) along with world class defense. Plus, we know what Pippen did to the Knicks in the 93' ECF. Sports Illustrated said if there was a MVP award for the conference finals round (like there is in baseball) Pippen would be the 93' ECF MVP. He wasn't riding Jordan's coattails past the 60 win Knicks. Pippen won championships because he stepped up. Ewing, as great as he was, didn't in the finals.

Stockton being #1 all-time in assists and being in the conversation as the best passer ever is worth a few spots, even though prime Payton was an amazing player.

I am curious, why did you include Isiah, an 80's player in the OP? Comparing the others would be good since they played during the same period and much of the board saw these 90's greats play. This actually is a good comparison thread. :cheers: Too many of them are jokes and 90% of people take one guy so there is no real discussion.


However, nobody will debate on who the leader was on the team, It was Isiah.

That raises a question too. How do we define leader? In theory you could be a 12th man and be the locker room leader or a run-of-the-mill starter and the leader on the floor. People too often assume the best player=leader. I agree Isiah was the leader but I wanted to make this point. Look at Boston today. Pierce is their best player but Garnett is their leader.

[L.Kizzle]

How would you rank them?



This is Bill Simmons List:

23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton
39. Ewing
40. Payton
43. Drexler


All of those players pretty much played in the same era as well.


Which list looks more reasonable and accurate?

BTW, I'm kinda surprised to see Stockton 15 spots higher than Payton on Bill Simmons list and also Pippen 15 spots higher than Ewing
Where is the whole list?


Isiah
Stockton
Ewing
Drexler
Pippen
Payton

[kshutts1]

I have Stockton over Isiah, but it all depends on what you want from that position.

If I want a franchise player, then I take Isiah.. but if I want the PERFECT complimentary piece... Stockton. He could play with ANYONE and fit in. Jordan/Lebron/Kobe/Wilt/Kareem? Sure! He could defend and hit the open 3 when the others were doubled. It would not be the ideal use of his abilities, but he would fit in perfectly.

So basically.. the ONLY time I take Isiah first is if I'm picking one of the two to start a franchise around.. that's the only time. If I already have a player.. any player.. in place, I'd rather have Stockton.

[G.O.A.T]

I have Stockton over Isiah, but it all depends on what you want from that position.

If I want a franchise player, then I take Isiah.. but if I want the PERFECT complimentary piece... Stockton. He could play with ANYONE and fit in. Jordan/Lebron/Kobe/Wilt/Kareem? Sure! He could defend and hit the open 3 when the others were doubled. It would not be the ideal use of his abilities, but he would fit in perfectly.

So basically.. the ONLY time I take Isiah first is if I'm picking one of the two to start a franchise around.. that's the only time. If I already have a player.. any player.. in place, I'd rather have Stockton.

Sounds good to me.

Isiah sort of became a poor man's Stockton in the late 80's; running the offense and only looking to score when the chance presented itself. That is until late in close games when he'd turn back into Isiah and take over.

[kshutts1]

Sounds good to me.

Isiah sort of became a poor man's Stockton in the late 80's; running the offense and only looking to score when the chance presented itself. That is until late in close games when he'd turn back into Isiah and take over.
I wasn't aware of that.. much like RR, I only have stories to go on, as I'm only 24.. didn't watch Isiah at all in his prime, but I did see Stockton, so also a slight bias, perhaps.

But regardless... I believe my argument stands. It is interesting to know, though, that Isiah was OK with taking a back seat. I can appreciate that! :cheers:

[bdreason]

I have them in the same order.

[nycelt84]

1.Isiah Thomas
2.John Stockton
3.Scottie Pippen
4.Patrick Ewing
5.Clyde Drexler

[chitownsfinest]

Zeke
Pippen
Stockton
Ewing
Drexler
Payton

[magnax1]

1-Isiah (top 15)
2-Stockton (top 20)
3-Ewing (top 40
4-Pippen (top 45)
5-Drexler (top 45)
6- Payton (top 60)

[Duncan21formvp]

Where is the whole list?


Isiah
Stockton
Ewing
Drexler
Pippen
Payton

The whole list is irrelevant to this thread.

[NBASTATMAN]

How would you rank them?



This is Bill Simmons List:

23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton
39. Ewing
40. Payton
43. Drexler


All of those players pretty much played in the same era as well.


Which list looks more reasonable and accurate?

BTW, I'm kinda surprised to see Stockton 15 spots higher than Payton on Bill Simmons list and also Pippen 15 spots higher than Ewing



His list is picking title winners over non winners.. I am not sure I put Ewing at 39..

[Roundball_Rock]

His list is picking title winners over non winners.. I am not sure I put Ewing at 39..


If you made a list of those guys based strictly on how good they were, not what they accomplished, it would look pretty much the same. Is rings a significant factor in his rankings, though, when half of them have titles and Drexler, who won a ring, is behind Stockton, Ewing and Payton? Most people factor in winning at least to some degree (after all, that is the point of the game!) and so does Simmons but it is not a significant factor if you look at his rankings. Let's not act as if championships are a matter of luck too.

Ewing in the finals: 19/12/2 on 36% shooting, thoroughly outplayed by Hakeem
Stockton in the finals: 15/4/9, 10/3/9
Drexler in the finals: 25/8/5 41%. Solid numbers but thoroughly outplayed by his counterpart in 92'. They needed more production out of him, not his regular season production to win. In 95' he had 22/10/7. Much better all-around numbers. He scored less but was more efficient. Needless to say, his team won the second time.

Payton had a good finals, particularly defensively, but ran into perhaps the greatest team of all-time in 96'. The 96' Sonics (64 wins) would have won in practically any other year.

Isiah in the finals: 21/3/7, 28/5/7
Pippen in the finals: 21/9/7, 21/8/8, 21/9/8, 16/8/5 (poor shooting, though), 20/8/4, 16/7/5

Pippen's numbers fell off during the threepeat because he happened to be hurt by the finals in two of them and got hurt in the finals in 98'. On top of his offensive production he played world class defense, in particular dominating the Jazz offense in 98'.

It is no coincidence that Pippen and Isiah won championships and Ewing, Stockton did not. They had chances. They weren't steamrolled. Ewing's team came within one shot of a championship in Game 6. However, if Ewing played well that last second shot would never have been needed. Should it hurt their ranking? That is up to the individual but since most people factor in winning them not stepping up their games when it counted most ultimately cost them. They were great players, though. All of these players are top 40 all-time at least imo. I have two of them top 20 and another top 25.

[G.O.A.T]

Top 30
Zeke
Stockton
Pippen
________________

Top 45
Drexler
Ewing
Payton

What seperates group A from group B is exceptional playoff success or longevity (Stockton and the records). By exceptional I mean among the top 25 ever. You can't name 25 players beter than Zeke or Pippen in terms of postseason resume.

Payton, Ewing and Dexler all have something missing from their resume.

Ewing: A title, significant crunchtime performances on par with his skills.

Drexler: Killer instinct and signature playoff series.

Payton: Inability to lead; held on way too long, no title as a starter.

I have no problem with someone dropping Stockton, but you better not have Kareem top three or Karl Malone top 15 (The other two greats in terms of longevity.

[EricForman]

Isiah may be better but :oldlol: @ how many people love to chant "best player on a championship team!" as if that inherently makes them a better player. Kevin Garnett>Dr. J? Chauncey Billups>Oscar Robertson?





Actually, I do think KG is a better player than Doc.

Second, stop trying to act dense, you know the "best player on title team" matters but only to a point. I have common sense. I wouldn't put Chauncey over Oscar or anyone who hasn't won as the best player.

But in the case of Zeke and Stockton. That definitely applies. Zeke was the best player on his team. Teams that played the Lakers and Celtics tough in the 80s and won two titles eventually. Stockton was the second best player on his team that was above average for 10 years, then very good to great for 2-4 years.

[feyki]

I want to create thread about Pippen-Stock-Drex trio but this thread acceptable .

I think Ewing is different level player to others(close to top 25) . Pippen , Drexler and Stockton , who has better career ?

[swagga]

isaiah/ewing
pippen
stockton
drexler/payton