1994 Knicks vs Bulls Game 3. What was Pippen thinking?

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.

[Roundball_Rock]

People have forgotten about Magic running his championship winning coach out of town as a second year player too. I don't recall you starting a thread on that. :confusedshrug:


Where you stand on Scottie Pippen depends on two questions:
1. Do you follow the NBA? I mean, do you really follow it?
2. Do you give up on anyone who has made even one stupid mistake in his life?

If the answer is "yes" for No. 1, you probably wonder why Scottie's recent retirement wasn't a bigger story. It's not every day one of the 20 greatest players ever hangs it up, right? Does MJ win six rings without him? Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways? Was there a more influential defensive player in the past 30 years?

During the 1992 Olympics, Chuck Daly called Scottie his second-best player, describing him as the ultimate "fill-in-the-blanks guy." That's right. Like The Wolf in "Pulp Fiction," Scottie specialized in cleaning up everyone else's mess. When Magic was running amok in the 1991 Finals, Scottie shut him down. When the Knicks were shoving the Bulls around in the 1994 playoffs, Scottie dunked on Ewing, then stood over him defiantly. During the Charles Smith game the year before, Pippen and Horace Grant were the ones stuffing Smith again and again. And when the 1998 Pacers tried to snuff out the MJ era, Jordan and Pippen crashed the boards and willed themselves time and again to the foul line in Game 7, two smaller guys dominating the paint against a bigger team. They just wanted it more.

I always thought MJ and Scottie were like Crockett and Tubbs. Crockett got most of the attention, and deservedly so ... but he's still not taking Calderone down without Tubbs. Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994 during MJ's first sabbatical. Scottie (22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency. It's easy to dismiss him as Jordan's sidekick. Or to point to the migraine in 1990's Game 7 against the Pistons. Hey, if all else fails, just bring up the quitter thing.

Which brings me to the second question ...

We all remember that Knicks series in 1994, when Scottie asked out of Game 3 because Phil Jackson called the final play for Toni Kukoc (who ended up sinking the game-winner with Pippen sulking on the bench). In the locker room after the game, Bill Cartwright, tears running down his face, screamed at Pippen, later calling it the biggest disappointment of his career. Jackson agreed.

But was it as bad as all that? Without MJ, Scottie carried the Bulls to 55 wins by himself. It was his team, and when it's your team, a mind-set takes hold: everything is on your shoulders, everyone is gunning for you, you can't take a night off. You're a pumped-up star of your own action movie. Unless you think like a superhero, you won't survive. Game 3 was Scottie's Jimmy Chitwood moment. He'd earned the right to say, "Coach, I'll make it." And Jackson took it away from him.

See, Scottie came from the dirt-poor streets of Arkansas, one of 12 siblings with an ailing father who couldn't work. He was a manager at Central Arkansas before an improbable growth spurt allowed his career to take off. Scottie's NBA stock skyrocketed before the 1987 draft, but GM Jerry Krause preyed on his naivete with a crummy six-year deal for short money, refusing to renegotiate even when Scottie emerged as an All-Star. Searching for security, Pippen eschewed free agency to grab a long extension -- just as salaries were taking off -- playing his prime at a steep discount. To make matters worse, the Bulls courted Kukoc hard, paying Scottie only after Kukoc took a deal in Italy. Scottie never forgave them -- or Kukoc, for that matter. When these factors -- money, jealousy, insecurity, ego, competitiveness -- clashed, a single selfish moment was born, and it stained a career predicated on unselfishness.

Look, Scottie screwed up. He apologized. His team forgave him. He took an enormous amount of heat. And nothing like it ever happened again. I don't care about one mistake. I care about an exceptional athlete who redefined a position, a guy who allowed MJ to be MJ, a guy with enough rings for two hands. There has been no one like him before or since. I care about that. And those of you who are willing to let that Kukoc game overshadow such a unique career, well, maybe you should climb off your high horse before you get hurt.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101

No one has forgotten it. How about talking about what has really been forgotten regarding some other greats? How about the guy who took only 8 shots in Game 5 when the ECF WAS tied 2-2 in order to make a point to his coach even though he was taking over 30% of his team's shots in the previous four games? How about the guy who mailed in an entire half of a Game 7? How about the guy who took only 2 shots in the second half of a NBA finals game to make a point about him being unselfish--passing it off even when he was open? If you want to talk about quitting let's talk about other incidents too, which went beyond merely quitting on a play where as a result someone else had to inbound the ball with 1.8 seconds left. All these guys get a free pass. When people talk about them no one even mentions these things. In Pippen's case 1.8gate is the second or third thing mentioned. Google any articles on him retiring. It was always in there. It will be in the articles next year when he gets in the HOF. How come the same wasn't doing in the other cases?


Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him.

You have forgotten. Everyone expected it to go to Pippen so Jackson designed it for someone else. Besides, with 1.8 seconds left what kind of shot is the inbounder going to get anyway? Pass it to someone, give it back to Pippen with 0.5? Do you know the background of the Pippen-Kukoc thing? Also in that game, Kukoc had screwed up the previous possession's iso play called for Pippen. That didn't help things. What he did was wrong but I can understand why he was angry and he is unfairly singled out. He quit on one play--a play who was supposed to inbound the ball. Others have done much worse with respect to quitting and get a free pass for it.

[1987_Lakers]

The only reason I made this thread is because I've never heard this topic being discussed on this site, I know Pippen apologized and his teammates forgave him, I just want people's opinions on the incident.

[Roundball_Rock]

The only reason I made this thread is because I've never heard this topic being discussed on this site, I know Pippen apologized and his teammates forgave him, I just want people's opinions on the incident.

Really? It and the migraine game always comes up in Pippen threads, which I never see you in despite your interest in him. :confusedshrug: We never hear of what Magic did to Westhead after Westhead coached the team to a championship, what Player X did in Game 5, Player Y in Game 7 and Player Z in the NBA finals. I've never seen anyone else mention Game 5 in the numerous threads about Player X. Game 7 rarely comes up in Player Y's threads and the media has erased it from history. Player Z quitting? Never mentioned. Magic? Never mentioned.

What opinions do you expect? No one is going to say what he did was right You are a good poster but this thread seems out of character--like Pippen in Game 3! The legit replies to this thread will say what I and Simmons said. However, there are going to be numerous trolls using it to bash him.

[Alhazred]

Yep, that was a pretty dark moment for me as a Bulls fan. At least he redeemed himself later on.

Regardless of his personal history with Kukoc, could you have imagined Jordan the supposed ballhog benching himself when he was asked to pass to Paxson in 93 or Kerr in 97? Plus, he had previously gotten into a fight with Kerr, so it's not like their relationship was all sunshine and roses, either.

Up to that point I thought Pip was the greatest player of the 90s next to Jordan(to be fair I was young and a huge Bulls fan) but that play altered my perception of Scottie from a selfless player who "sacrificed" his stats to play with Jordan to a very talented player who didn't quite have the mental toughness of guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Larry Bird, ect. and didn't realize when it was time to let another player take the big shot.


Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways?

Larry Bird and Julius Erving, maybe? Erving wasn't a point forward, but he was a good rebounder, defender and scorer along with solid passing.

That all being said, Pippen remains one of my favorite players as well as being one of the top 35 players(Well, to me) of all time in the NBA.

[Roundball_Rock]

Regardless of his personal history with Kukoc, could you have imagined Jordan the supposed ballhog benching himself when he was asked to pass to Paxson in 93 or Kerr in 97?

When was this? Those plays were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating into the lane in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?

No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland (back then the first round was 5 games and the Bulls trailed in the game) was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit in the huddle, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did because it has been airbrushed from history yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.

Supposed ballhog, huh? Do you know what he did in the conference finals when his coach asked him to pass the ball more? Probably not since that too has been airbrushed from history.


Up to that point I thought Pip was the greatest player of the 90s next to Jordan(to be fair I was young and a huge Bulls fan) but that play altered my perception of Scottie from a selfless player who "sacrificed" his stats to play with Jordan to a very talented player who didn't quite have the mental toughness of guys like Jordan, Hakeem, Larry Bird, ect. and didn't realize when it was time to let another player take the big shot.


Let's see if your perception of Jordan changes in light of learning what he did 20 years ago...

Pippen was not selfless based on one play? His coaches, teammates all disagree.


Larry Bird and Julius Erving, maybe? Erving wasn't a point forward, but he was a good rebounder, defender and scorer along with solid passing.

Where were they on defense? His point was not that he was better but he affected games in more ways. Could those guys dominate a game defensively?

[Mister JT]

But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson. Why don't you start the thread about Magic running Westhead out of town?

Then you dictate what legit replies are supposed to look like.

Anyway, I remember that the incident was not a big deal to me personally. We didn't get full coverage of the playoffs back then with preview shows and post game analyses. All we got was live games and the newspaper recaps. Kukoc made the shot. The Bulls won. I was happy.

Even the Pippen-Jordan spat in game 1 of the 98 finals was not a big deal to me. I knew they were veterans and would come back stronger. And they did.

[Alhazred]

When was this? Those players were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?

Sorry, just Kerr then, my bad.


No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.


Yes, Roundball, I'm very aware. Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point.

Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain. I don't think he was anymore selfish than MJ, but I hate this image he's been given by some as some sort of saintlike player who wouldn't dream of taking away shots from his teammates. That all being said, he was great for the next four seasons so I forgive him.

[CB4GOATPF]

The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers. :rolleyes:

[Alhazred]

When was this? Those players were designed for Paxson and Kerr? It was Pippen penetrating in 93' who passed to Grant who passed to Paxson. Was MJ even across the half court line?

Sorry, just Kerr then, my bad.


No need to imagine. The last play of Game 5 against Cleveland was designed for Dave Corzine. Jordan threw a hissy fit, it was changed to him, and he made that now famous shot. This is what I am talking about. No one even knows what Jordan did yet Pippen's incident is front and center in discussions of him.


Yes, Roundball, I'm very aware. Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point.

Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain. I don't think he was anymore selfish than MJ, but I hate this image he's been given by some as some sort of saintlike player who wouldn't dream of taking away shots from his teammates. That all being said, he was great for the next four seasons so I forgive him.


Where were they on defense? His point was not that he was better but he affected games in more ways. Could those guys dominate a game defensively?

Erving was a very good defender, can't say the same for Bird but he made clutch shots, rebounded well, was a great passer and would even get a big steal when needed(1987 Eastern Conference Finals).

[Roundball_Rock]

Was the Kerr play called for Kerr?


Did he bench himself? No he didn't and that's the point.

The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine. Why was he even arguing? Those are precious seconds with the season on the line and he was wasting time calling for the ball instead of discussing how to perfectly execute the play.

He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?


Anyways, I know Jordan himself has had selfish moments but when I hear people talk about how selfish he was and bring up how Pip "sacrificed" his stats I can't help but think about what Scottie did when he was finally given the title of team captain.

Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of encouragement, not scolding. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades? Pippen could have blown up the team a la Shaq-Kobe by demanding a trade so he could win as "the man" or demanding more shots.


But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson.

It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball. In Magic's case getting a coach who just led you to a championship was selfish yet Magic is presented as the ultimate team player. Good. He was--just like Pippen. Yet Pippen's black mark on his copybook is always mentioned while Magic's not so much. These are just a few exampes.


The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers.

Nah, at least not thus far. Some good may come out this thread. The people who bring this up the most here are MJ fans. If they learn that their hero had similar, arguably worse (one play vs. an entire game) moments maybe they will stop doing it. 99% of his fans don't even know about what he did because it has been airbrushed from history.


Erving was a very good defender, can't say the same for Bird but he made clutch shots, rebounded well, was a great passer and would even get a big steal when needed(1987 Eastern Conference Finals).

Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.

[Alhazred]

The hate on Pippen continues by the Jordan jockers. :rolleyes:

Who's hating? I already said Pippen later redeemed himself and is one of the top 35 players of all time.

[Mister JT]

But Pippen IS NOT getting "crucified" for that incident.

It was a negative moment in his career, but it was only a minor part. It hasn't tarnished his legacy as a top 50 player and as a champion.

I think you are overreacting.

[Alhazred]

The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine?

I'm talking about an actual selfbenching, not what Jordan "might have" done.



He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a while game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?

He also hit a game winning shot in Rodman's face in game 3. Also, could you post Michael's other stats from that game, specifically rebounds, assists, steals and blocks?




Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of ENCOURAGEMENT, NOT SCOLDING. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades?

Barkley would like to differ. Remember what happened in Houston? Yikes.


For him to want to leave after one year, it disappointed me greatly," Barkley said Tuesday. "The Rockets went out of their way to get Scottie and the fans have treated him well, so I was just disappointed in him."

Pippen was offering no apologies Wednesday and reiterated that he wants to play elsewhere, preferably for the Lakers and Phil Jackson.

"I wouldn't give Charles Barkley an apology at gunpoint," Pippen said, never raising his voice. "He can never expect an apology from me. ... If anything, he owes me an apology for coming to play with his fat butt."

Also, the sacrificing of stats I mentioned? Have you compared his 98 stats to his year in Houston? His scoring took a hit when he got their despite not playing under Jordan. What happened?




It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball.

Jordan and Kobe got free passes? You clearly don't go on enough message boards.

[ronnymac]

God i still remember the 98-99 Season that he quit on us. i still remember that terrible inbound pass in game 1 against the lakers . i still remember the terrible misses when he was posting Kobe up in game 2 and 4. he only had one good game and that was game 3 when he had 37. he was just terrible with us.

[Roundball_Rock]

He also hit a game winning shot in Rodman's face in game 3.

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.


Jordan and Kobe got free passes?

You just gave MJ one about 5 minutes after criticizing Pippen. :confusedshrug: Can you point to one thread where Game 5 of the 89' ECF was discussed? I have never seen it even mentioned here by anyone other than me, let alone a thread about it.


God i still remember the 98-99 Season that he quit on us. i still remember that terrible inbound pass in game 1 against the lakers . i still remember the terrible misses when he was posting Kobe up in game 2 and 4. he only had one good game and that was game 3 when he had 37. he was just terrible with us.

A poor series does not=quitting. I don't recall Hakeem lighting it up in that series either. Did he quit too? Edit I just checked. Hakeem averaged 13 ppg and had 8 points in Game 2 and 5 with the series on the line in Game 3. Yeah, Pippen did struggle in the Hakeem-Barkley interior oriented Houston offense where Pippen's job was to stand on the wings and wait for a bone from Hakeem-Barkley but to call it quitting is inaccurate.

[97 bulls]

actually, that shot that steve kerr hit wasnt designed for him. it was absolutely for jordan. kerr was there as a back up in the event that stockton came over to help.

[Alhazred]

Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.

Actually, the Sixers would put Erving on Bird during early 80s playoff series to neutralize him sometimes when he wasn't scoring. Now, we all know Bird is a great scorer, so the fact that Erving was used to contain him says a lot about his defensive prowess.

[chitownsfinest]

The play that Jackson designed for Kukoc was a strictly basketball-related move at the time. Pippen was getting hounded by Mason in the 4th quarter of that game and in crunch time's of that series in general. Getting a shot off with Mason on you would be extremely tough to do so the best option was to go to Kukoc on the catch and shoot as Kukoc was really good in those types of situations as well, considering his long length which did made it difficult to block his shot. Kukoc also had a couple of game winners that same season I believe. Pippen was being a bit ignorant of the situation in hand while the play was being drawn imp but all in all, I forgive him since the shot was made.

Also, the whole team quit on Doug Collins. It was referenced in a old Bill Simmons article and in "The Jordan Rules" if you don't believe me.

[Roundball_Rock]

Also, the whole team quit on Doug Collins. It was referenced in a old Bill Simmons article and in "The Jordan Rules" if you don't believe me.

I read both. What you are talking about is completely different. Numbers don't lie. Jordan took over 30% of his team's shots in games 1-4. The series was tied 2-2. What changed in Game 5? Collins asked MJ to pass the ball more. MJ got offended and mailed it in. The Bulls lost by single digits.


Actually, the Sixers would put Erving on Bird during early 80s playoff series to neutralize him sometimes when he wasn't scoring. Now, we all know Bird is a great scorer, so the fact that Erving was used to contain him says a lot about his defensive prowess.

He made only one all-D team in his entire career. I guess no one got the memo about his dominant defense?

[ronnymac]

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.



You just gave MJ one about 5 minutes after criticizing Pippen. :confusedshrug: Can you point to one thread where Game 5 of the 89' ECF was discussed? I have never seen it even mentioned here by anyone other than me, let alone a thread about it.



A poor series does not=quitting. I don't recall Hakeem lighting it up in that series either. Did he quit too? Edit I just checked. Hakeem averaged 13 ppg and had 8 points in Game 2 and 5 with the series on the line in Game 3. Yeah, Pippen did struggle in the Hakeem-Barkley interior oriented Houston offense where Pippen's job was to stand on the wings and wait for a bone from Hakeem-Barkley but to call it quitting is inaccurate.
Barkley had a fine series. he was killing Jr Reed. he was our best avenue on offense. Olajuwon was on a downward spiral all season. the 98-99 season was the beggining of the end for the dream.he did'nt quit. Pippen just was'nt interested all series except game 3 where he took 26 shots.

[Alhazred]

And Pippen had 25 points in Game 3. Does that excuse what he did? Jordan quit a game with the series tied 2-2 and you are excusing it? That is hypocritical, no?

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?


His stats were discussed in another thread. If your argument is him working the offense to get Steve Kerr a good shot when Kerr was cold didn't reduce his scoring well there is not much that can be said in response. What happened in 99'? Taking a million Mailman charges in the 98' finals and injuring your back as a result is what happened.

He was injured since 96 yet his stats up to 98 were fairly consistent. So again I ask, what happened?


The Pippen-Barkley thing was started by Barkley after Pippen said he wanted to get traded in the offseason.

Regardless of who started it, those were harsh words from a guy who supposedly didn't scold his teammates, don't you think? Look, I like Pippen, he was one of my favorite players and I already said he redeemed himself with his fantastic play from 96-98. There's no need to be overly defensive here. Hell, I agree with you when you say one moment doesn't define his career, it's just that this was a big moment for him considering he was finally the main guy on the team. After that, I was a bit hesitant whenever I heard anyone claim how selfish Jordan was in comparison.

[97 bulls]

actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

[Alhazred]

He made only one all-D team in his entire career. I guess no one got the memo about his dominant defense?

So, you judge a player's abilities strictly on awards? Nice.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?

LOL he wasn't asked take just 8 shots. Jordan averaged 27 shots a game in the playoffs that year. You watched Jordan's career and saw how many shots he would take, especially in the playoffs. Did you ever see him take 8 shots? Connect the dots.

I don't know what his other stats were. We don't have game logs for the playoffs. It doesn't matter so Smith did not mention it in his book. The numbers in this case speak for themselves. 28 shots a game in the other playoff games yet only 8 in this one.


He was injured since 96 yet his stats up to 98 were fairly consistent. So again I ask, what happened?

Aging, severity of the injury. Krause believed Pippen's body was breaking down by 1997. He proved to be right. You didn't notice a difference between 98' Pippen and 96' Pippen?


Regardless of who started it, those were harsh words from a guy who supposedly didn't scold his teammates, don't you think?

We are talking about on the court in the heat of battle. Again, these aren't my words. These are coming straight from Phil Jackson and his teammates. They were on the court with him and in the huddle.


So, you judge a player's abilities strictly on awards? Nice.

No, but you seem to not understand there are varying degrees of ability. Was Pippen as good a three point shooter as Reggie Miller? Is your argument that Dr. J was as dominant a defender as Pippen? Maybe he was. I haven't seen much of him. That said, I have never heard Dr. J ever mentioned in the GOAT perimeter defender discussion. Is everyone underrating his D? Maybe, but if so he was underrated in that respect at the time too.


actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

:applause:

[Alhazred]

actually, i totally understand why pippen did what he did. hes been disrespected his whole career up to this point. constantly hearing that its all due to jordan that the bulls have three rings. nevermind the contributions he added. all pip wanted was a shot to make a name for himself. and thats no difference than what magic did in i believe 85 when the play was drawn up for kareem and he broke the play and took the last shot. everybody respects him for that. or kobe totally undermining the lakers for a year or 2. and thus costing him at least 2 rings with shaq. and shaq vice versa. or the countless times players get their coaches fired due to differences. i see no difference.

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.

[chitownsfinest]

The Pippen-Barkley feud was actually started by Pippen when he badmouthed Barkley in an interview with ESPN for being lazy and asked to be traded. The reason he got heat for what he said despite saying what was arguably true was because Barkley had taken a large paycut just so Houston could afford Pippen's salary when he came to Houston.

Also, MJ can be said to have mailed it in during that game 5 performance but maybe he was making a point that if they were going to criticize him for being a ball hog, then they better not criticize him for not looking to give other teammates shots (he had 9 assists in that game as well). Also the whole team was fed up with Collins at that point and had already started a campaign against him as well.

[Mister JT]

But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

His athletic ability was recognized by the league. He even was a Slam Dunk Contest participant. He was a multiple all-atar, a Dream Teamer and a three time champion. I think it was actually Horace Grant who felt overlooked during the first three-peat. And nobody said the the rings were all due to Jordan.

Magic didn't take the hook shot to make a name for himself. He read the defense and reacted.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.

The Ewing dunk was in Game 6.

I don't remember the details, chi, but I'll take your word. Regardless of the details what Pippen did regarding Barkley was wrong. They apparently made up for it. Barkley spoke at Pippen's jersey retirement ceremony.


Also, MJ can be said to have mailed it in during that game 5 performance but maybe he was making a point that if they were going to criticize him for being a ball hog, then they better not criticize him for not looking to give other teammates shots (he had 9 assists in that game as well). Also the whole team was fed up with Collins at that point and had already started a campaign against him as well.

His point was his team needed him to shoot that much to win. He was wrong, though, to do it. Do you believe mailing in a ECF game with the series tied is right? If he played they could have taken a 3-2 lead heading to Chicago for Game 6.


But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

He was by Bulls management, especially Krause. Calling the play for Kukoc made it even worse given the Krause-Pippen-Kukoc saga. If he called it for Steve Kerr would he have blown a gasket? Probably not.

Lots of people have claimed he just rode MJ's coattails.

[chitownsfinest]

Also before RoundballRock throws a hissy fit at my last post and calls me a Pippen hater, I did not mean that to be anti Pippen at any way.

[Abraham Lincoln]

He made only one all-D team in his entire career.

And the top defensive PF of his era only has one 1st team all-D selectiion.


http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2007/0820/nba_g_oakley_412.jpg

[97 bulls]

That's fair enough, but at the end of a game and BENCHING yourself? Ok, that might be a bit harsh, actually. If Kukoc hadn't made the shot, I probably would've sided with Pippen a bit more. Toni made the shot in the end though, which made Scottie look like a total ass. Still a great player, though. That dunk on Ewing during the same game was sick as Hell, I must admit.
lol i honestly would say benching yourself and getting a man fired because you dont see eye to eye are 2 different things. and thats a great point bro. if kukocs misses, i believe everyone sides with pip. well, not everyone

[Alhazred]

LOL he wasn't asked take just 8 shots. Jordan averaged 27 shots a game in the playoffs that year. You watched Jordan's career and saw how many shots he would take, especially in the playoffs. Did you ever see him take 8 shots? Connect the dots.

So what is the right amount he should have taken, then?


I don't know what his other stats were. We don't have game logs for the playoffs. It doesn't matter so Smith did not mention it in his book. The numbers in this case speak for themselves. 28 shots a game in the other playoff games yet only 8 in this one.

Why doesn't it matter? How do we know he wasn't focusing on other aspects of the game such as assists and rebounds instead? Anyway, here's his game six stats. 32pts (13-25), 13 asts, 4rbs, 3stls, 2blks. Yep, he really packed it in that series....


Jordan experienced a microcosm of the series and the entire playoffs within his 42 minutes. With Scottie Pippen forced out of the lineup one minute into the game after getting accidentially elbowed in the head by Detroit center Bill Laimbeer, Jordan carried the Bulls all night long.

"I was confident coming into the game but little things happen that you don't count on-Scottie getting hurt, getting into foul trouble-I guess you just have to be a man and accept them." Jordan said.


Aging, severity of the injury. Krause believed Pippen's body was breaking down by 1997. He proved to be right. You didn't notice a difference between 98' Pippen and 96' Pippen?

Point taken. Still, 19 points a game to 14? Of course, it was probably just a case of him adjusting to a new system as well so I'll drop it.


We are talking about on the court in the heat of battle. Again, these aren't my words. These are coming straight from Phil Jackson and his teammates. They were on the court with him and in the huddle.

I believe you and someone else mentioned how he got into Kukoc's face to take charges against Malone, didn't you?


No, but you seem to not understand there are varying degrees of ability. Was Pippen as good a three point shooter as Reggie Miller? Is your argument that Dr. J was as dominant a defender as Pippen?

What? No, my point was that they were equally able to dominate a game in different ways. You don't think Pippen was as good a player as Bird or Julius, do you? Not that I think Pippen was a bad player, but when I think of guy's with similar abilities, I generally think of Clyde Drexler or prime Grant Hill(pre-2000, of course).

[chitownsfinest]

Yeah I agree that Krause was disrespecting Pippen like no other (refusing to pay him) but who didn't Krause disrespect other then Jordan? Everyone was complaining about something involving him at one point or the other, even Jordan.

Yeah MJ may have tried proving that point as well, but maybe he was trying to prove that him being a ballhog wasn't as bad as it looked and maybe it was best for the team at that point before Pippen and Grant developed to take a lot of shots. He did chose the wrong time to do it though.

[Roundball_Rock]

So what is the right amount he should have taken, then?

Ask Collins. Better yet ask MJ and ask him what he did when his teams were winning. All I know is a dominant scorer--who scored 32 points on 25 shots in the very next game as you mentioned should not be taking 8 shots in a game.


Why doesn't it matter? How do we know he wasn't focusing on other aspects of the game such as assists and rebounds instead? Anyway, here's his game six stats. 32pts (13-25), 13 asts, 4rbs, 3stls, 2blks. Yep, he really packed it in that series....

No one said he packed it in the series. He just quit in Game 5. How do we know? Journalism (Sam Smith). Talking to people who were on the team. Circumstantial evidence backs this up. 28 FGA in the other fifteen playoff games; 8 in that one. How many times did MJ take less than 10 shots in the playoffs? Did he ever do that other than in that game? Why can't you admit MJ made a mistake? No one is saying it didn't happen. You criticize Pippen for one play but not MJ for an entire game with the series tied.


I believe you and someone else mentioned how he got into Kukoc's face to take charges against Malone, didn't you?

That was Jordan I believe. I don't remember him getting in his face, just telling him to do so.


What? No, my point was that they were equally able to dominate a game in different ways. You don't think Pippen was as good a player as Bird or Julius, do you? Not that I think Pippen was a bad player, but when I think of guy's with similar abilities, I generally think of Clyde Drexler or prime Grant Hill(pre-2000, of course).

No but I have never heard of Bird or Erving dominating a NBA finals with their defense. Can any old-timers comment on this? Abe?

Anyway, this is off track. The fact that you had to invoke Bird and Erving to find better SF's in that regard speaks volumes about how good Pippen was.


And the top defensive PF of his era only has one 1st team all-D selectiion.

That is because Pippen had a lock on one of the 1st team spots for forwards for during the same period. :rockon:


Also before RoundballRock throws a hissy fit at my last post and calls me a Pippen hater, I did not mean that to be anti Pippen at any way.

:mad: Pippen hater. I am benching myself in this thread.

[97 bulls]

But Pippen wasn't "disrespected in his whole career up to that point."

His athletic ability was recognized by the league. He even was a Slam Dunk Contest participant. He was a multiple all-atar, a Dream Teamer and a three time champion. I think it was actually Horace Grant who felt overlooked during the first three-peat. And nobody said the the rings were all due to Jordan.

Magic didn't take the hook shot to make a name for himself. He read the defense and reacted.
no, magic broke that play. he had plenty of time to get the ball to kareem. he got sick of being called "tragic johnson" for the mistakes in 84.and pippen was disrespected in the sense that nobody believed he could run a team had jordan not neen there.

[Mister JT]

Yeah, to some degree, Pippen was disrespected by Krause. If I remember right, Kukoc as a rookie had a higher salary than Pippen (and if Jordan didn't retire, probably higher than Jordan's salary too).

I think there was a subplot in the 92 Olympics about Jordan and Pippen going against their future teammate Kukoc. Kukoc was excited to have a chance to play alongside Jordan. But Jordan and Pippen were motivated to go at Kukoc to make a statement to the Bulls' management. My memory is not clear on this though. I might have read some article AFTER the Olympics happened.

[Alhazred]

The Ewing dunk was in Game 6.

My mistake.




He was by Bulls management, especially Krause. Calling the play for Kukoc made it even worse given the Krause-Pippen-Kukoc saga. If he called it for Steve Kerr would he have blown a gasket? Probably not.

Krause did indeed severely underpay Pippen, that we can both agree on. Grant knew what that was like, too. I disagree about Kukoc, though. He made the shot and that's what counts, imo.



Lots of people have claimed he just rode MJ's coattails.

Mostly dumbasses.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am not saying calling the shot for Kukoc was a mistake. It was the correct thing to do on basketball grounds, as chi explained. Pippen did struggle at the end of games in that series, facing double and even triple teams at times. No one expected a rookie who averaged 8/3 in that series to get the shot so Kukoc was a good choice based on the element of surprise and him being clutch at other times that year. What I said is Pippen's reaction was exacerbated by the shot being called for Kukoc of all people (especially since Kukoc screwed up the previous play designed for Pippen). Would he have done the same thing if it were called for Armstrong or Kerr? I doubt it but this is speculation. It was called for Kukoc and Pippen reacted shamefully.


I think there was a subplot in the 92 Olympics about Jordan and Pippen going against their future teammate Kukoc. Kukoc was excited to have a chance to play alongside Jordan. But Jordan and Pippen were motivated to go at Kukoc to make a statement to the Bulls' management. My memory is not clear on this though. I might have read some article AFTER the Olympics happened.

Yeah--they shut Kukoc down by playing lockdown D as if it were Game 7 of the NBA finals. :oldlol: This was when Kukoc was supposed to be the best player in Europe.

[dallaslonghorn]

I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.

[chitownsfinest]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

[Alhazred]

Ask Collins. Better yet ask MJ and ask him what he did when his teams were winning. All I know is a dominant scorer--who scored 32 points on 25 shots in the very next game as you mentioned should not be taking 8 shots in a game.



No one said he packed it in the series. He just quit in Game 5. How do we know? Journalism (Sam Smith). Talking to people who were on the team. Circumstantial evidence backs this up. 28 FGA in the other fifteen playoff games; 8 in that one. How many times did MJ take less than 10 shots in the playoffs? Did he ever do that other than in that game? Why can't you admit MJ made a mistake? No one is saying it didn't happen. You criticize Pippen for one play but not MJ for an entire game with the series tied.


Jordan did make mistakes, just look at the 1987 first round or when he lost the ball to Nick Anderson in 95.

Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then?


That was Jordan I believe. I don't remember him getting in his face, just telling him to do so.

I see.


No but I have never heard of Bird or Erving dominating a NBA finals with their defense. Can any old-timers comment on this? Abe?

Anyway, this is off track. The fact that you had to invoke Bird and Erving to find better SF's in that regard speaks volumes about how good Pippen was.

You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.

[Alhazred]

I would have done the same thing. Pippen finally had the chance to be the man, and he was doing a great job, and Phil totally pulled the rug from underneath him. Would he have done the same thing to MJ? Very disrespectful given Pippen's history in Chicago. And I wouldn't have stopped w/not playing either, I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.


You'd tell your gm to get rid of Phil Jackson? Seriously?

[Roundball_Rock]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

I agree on all points.


Also, it was pointed out that he had 9 assists that game. Was he really packing it in, then?

He had 32 points on 25 shots and 13 assists in the next game. You tell me. No one disputes what he did.


You're right, Scottie is one of the ten best small forwards to ever play in the NBA. Lebron, Bird, Erving, Rick Barry and Baylor are the only ones I can name off the top of my head that were better than him. I believe that speaks volumes of how talented he was.

Yeah, pretty much although he has a case over some of them all-time based on accomplishments (6 championships vs. 0 or 1) and defense (Barry, from what I've read, was a poor defender). He has no case over Bird or Dr. J, though.


I would have told the GM either me or the coach has to go.

Jackson handled the situation extremely well and all was forgiven, both by the players and coach by the next game where Pippen had 25 points and led his team to evening the series. Even the fans cheered him when he was introduced. I and many others thought he might have been booed.

[Alhazred]

The reason it went to Kukoc was because NY was a really big team and would use their size to front you. That is why it would go to someone like Kukoc who was near 6-10 and can catch the ball over someone like Anthony Mason or Charles Smith. Armstrong was a really clutch player and did end up hitting a potential game winner in that series (the Hue Holins game) but the nest decision was to go to Kukoc at the time. My only problem with Pippen was him being ignorant of the situation and failing to put his bitterness with Kukoc away to realize Toni was the best option for a catch and shoot situation considering his size and range. If it was 5 or so seconds left, the best option would be to give it to Pippen and let him make a play.

I also think Phil should be left out of any blame considering the fact that he often would help the players out and listen to their problems while the Jerry's would blindly ignore them.

Good post, concurred.

[Da_Realist]

I'm a bit confused. Jordan's a ballhog for taking a lot of shots but is a "quitter" when he cuts back when asked? Which is it? Also, did he really "quit"? What about his other stats?

Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop playing. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...

1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be selfish. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.

2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.

By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.

*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.

As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.

RR, I got your PM's. I'll respond when I get a chance. Family's visiting for the holidays...

[Roundball_Rock]

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down 1? If he did, I have two thoughts...

Yes, according to Sam Smith in the Jordan Rules. The idea was not as crazy as it seems. His thinking was everyone would expect the ball to go to MJ so he designed it for Corzine, similar to Jackson's thinking with Pippen and Kukoc. Edit: I skimmed through it and can't find it so I will retract it. I may have read it elsewhere. The Game 5 ECF thing is on pg 63. Why don't basketball books have indexes??? Edit II: I found it. Page 82.


By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was..

No one was even talking about Jordan until a Jordan fan acted as if Jordan would never do what Pippen did. I don't believe anyone even said he was selfish, although it was implicit in Collins' thinking.

I didn't want this to devolve into a MJ or Kobe thread so I never mentioned them by name in my first reply. I still haven't mentioned Player Z from the 60's. My point was all these greats get a pass for what they did yet Pippen's legacy is scarred by what he did.

No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. :oldlol: Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper. :roll:

[Alhazred]

Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.

[Alhazred]

Quick question, why did Collins want Corzine to take it? Why not Hodges, Pippen or Grant?

[Roundball_Rock]

No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.

[chitownsfinest]

Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.

[Alhazred]

You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?

[Mister JT]

Never read The Jordan Rules (though I bought Michael Leahy's When Nothing Else Matters). I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.

Remember this is the same Sam Smith, who, from out of nowhere, proposed that LeBron could join Kobe in LA in 2010.

And didn't Collins say at the postgame press conference, that the play was to "give the ball to Jordan and everybody else get the **** out of the way..."?

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm curious to find out how Sam Smith knew that the play was for Corzine. I'm not sure if journalists can get close to the huddle during timeouts.

Asking around as a journalist does. If it really happened do you think it wouldn't get mentioned? I believe Smith was the beat reporter for the team. When talking to a reporter it is easy to see a player saying "Mike made a great shot...but can you believe the play originally was for Collins...Collins sucks..."

People BS in press conferences all the time. Even that statement is technically accurate since the play was for MJ. He didn't mention there was another play drawn up before that one.


You could easily say they wouldn't have expected Hodges to take it, either. See, Kukoc I can understand, but Corzine? Also, how many players frowned when Phil said Toni was taking the shot, other than Pippen?

That is all Smith wrote. It was mentioned in passing in the book so there aren't details. The story was the shot, not Collins designing a play it for Corzine.

No one has ever written a book about Pippen so we don't have such details about 94'.


Giving the ball to Kukoc over Pippen is much more reasonable then giving the ball to Dave freaking Corzine over Jordan. Giving Pippen the final shot means he has to make a shot over Mason while MJ has to make the shotn over Ehlo, it is not the same situation. No wonder the team quit on Collins and did not like the guy.

Wasn't Ehlo considered a good defender? I agree, though, that Corzine doesn't make sense but Collins must have had some rationale for choosing Corzine instead of another player. Collins, despite his flaws, is an intelligent person.

[Da_Realist]

No problem. I wanted to clear things up so I addressed every possible question I thought you would have so they were lengthy. :oldlol: Note that I am not saying much about the 80's in this thread or making definitive declarations on Dr. J's defense based on limited information. I evolved as a poster. It is a lot different talking to hardcore fans here than friends who don't know Dr. J from Dr. Pepper. :roll:

I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.


Exellent post, Realist, thank you for adding to the discussion.

Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.

The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."

Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation. :D


No one would expect it. When he began to draw the play and the players realized it was for Corzine they frowned. Collins defended the play by saying it was a good idea because no one would except it (the same reason Jackson cited for calling that play for Kukoc). Jordan slammed his fist on the clipboard, said "Give me the ****in ball", the play was changed to MJ and he made that now legendary shot over Ehlo.

Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again. :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.

Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.

[Alhazred]

I have my own thoughts about Dr. J. He didn't seem to have an all-around game to me and those battles with Bird and the Celtics sort of highlighted the difference between an all-court player like Bird and a physical freak like Dr. J. He didn't seem to have a jumpshot or a left hand, but I only saw a few games starting from 80 until he retired. Probably less than 20. Intelligent posters on this board think differently so I keep my mouth shut about it.

I didn't watch that much of Dr. J either aside from replays from 80s games, but he seemed to have few weaknesses other than an outside shot which you already mentioned. I probably don't know any more about him than you do, though.


Thanks. That's just my perspective, though. I watched all those Bulls/Pistons battles. The Pistons were just better. Whether Jordan shot 8 times or 25 times. Whether he scored 15 or 42. The Pistons were just better. Especially in 88 and 89. Jordan was trying to prove a point -- and he was right. His team in 89 was not ready but he still should have played a better all around game. No excuses for that.

The Pistons were knocking him down, tripping him up and laughing at him with every win. They just crushed the Bulls. Wasn't it 88 or 89 when the Pistons were like 6-2 or 5-1 against the Bulls in the regular season? And they handed it to MJ every chance they got. MJ wanted to stand up to them and knock them down. When he looked around, he saw some softies that couldn't stand up to the big boys so he decided to take them on himself. I can imagine the eye-rolling he must have done when Collins told him to pass to Sellers, Cartwright, Grant, Hodges and Pippen more often. It's like saying, "Look, I know you're tired, but let the 16-year old in the back seat drive the next 300 miles so you can get some rest. She'll make good time." An ultra-competitor like MJ is going to say, "Hell no. We'll be fine. I can do it. That girl's never driven more than a half hour at a time."

Bad analogy or not, that's my interpretation. :D

Eh, I liked it. :)

[Mister JT]

Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.

I checked the vid. Sam Smith can be seen right next to the Bulls' bench. Hahaha!

Doug could have said what he said at the press conference because did not want to reveal that he had actually initially drawn up the play for Corzine.

[97 bulls]

no offense rock but i remember after that game in the interview doug collins saying that that play was called "give the ball to jordan and get the **** out the way". are you sure it was drawn up for corzine?

[Roundball_Rock]

Wrong time to try to outsmart the field. I can only imagine the scrutiny that guy would have faced if he decided to run a play for a guy that didn't play the whole fourth quarter when you got the most unstoppable offensive force during his peak physical prime on your team and who is having an EPIC game. Wow. We would have never seen Doug Collins again.

I agree. :roll: I am glad it worked out. Collins is my favorite analyst after Hubie Brown.

How would you compare Detroit's thuggery to the early 90's Knicks? Pippen was tripped twice in one game in the 94' series. That is just one player and just one game!


Kukoc saved the Bulls from a sweep.

In a way perhaps. They probably would have won Game 4 out of pride and determination but I agree that if he missed the series would be over. There would be no Game 7, no Hue Hollins stealing Game 5 and a 3-2 series lead from the Bulls with what many believe was the worst call in NBA history (ESPN poll, 7th worst call ever and #1 among NBA calls, #2 in basketball history behind the call in favor of the Soviets in 72' or 76'). However, Kukoc averaged 8/3 in that series on poor shooting. Let's not magnify his role.

I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D


Yeah, if it was in the book, and no one denied it, it probably happened. If it didn't, there should have been some kind of lawsuit or statement by now.

Well, it wasn't big enough of a deal to warrant a lawsuit but if it didn't happen you would think there would have been a denial from Collins because it makes him look very bad.

[guy]

Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop playing. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.


I agree. LOL @ equating that to Kobe's game 7 vs. the Suns or Pippen's sitting out. LOL @ equating that to quitting. A player doesn't get 9 assists by quitting. They don't put a ton of effort on the defensive end if they quit. Not to mention that there were a few instances in that game where Jordan gave a teammate a great open look and they just missed it, and there were also a few instances where Jordan jumped up for a shot and passed it to a teammate who had a better look at the last second. Kobe had 1 freaking assist in the game vs. the Suns.

And lol @ using Sam Smith as you're source in a book where he made it a point to highlight Jordan's flaws.

I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?

I'm not saying Jordan had a good game. He definitely should've been more aggressive. All I'm saying is using a paragraph from Sam Smith's Jordan's Rules as a source and passing it off as completely reliable is not exactly right. And equating that to "quitting" and to those other two games is definitely not right.

[Alhazred]

I agree, though, that if the Bulls lost that game they would have been toast--just as they would have been toast if they lost Game 3 in the 93' ECF. Remember who stepped up with 29 points on 83% shooting that game? If you credit Kukoc for one shot you have to credit your favorite Bull for 29 points on 83%. :D

Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.

Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.

[Roundball_Rock]

What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point.


I'm not saying Jordan didn't subconsciously take less shots. He obviously did. But how do you know what his intentions were? How do you know he was trying to make a point? How do you know he wasn't genuinely just taking Doug Collins' advice and may have just overdone it (which has happened plenty of times in these situations)? How do you know he wasn't doing both?

No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.

28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.

From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:

1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14

If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in any game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear.

Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.


Kudos to Scottie for an awesome scoring performance, but give credit to Jordan for having a near triple double as well. He led the team in assists and rebounds that game plus he added 2 steals and two blocks. It was almost as if they switched roles for the game, Scottie handling scoring duties and Jordan switching his priorities to passing, playing defense(Starks was destroyed that game) and grabbing boards.

Just to be clear, both were awesome that night aside from Jordan's poor shooting which can't be denied.

:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.

MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).

[Alhazred]

:applause: I agree. I aimed that comment only at duncan. He has said before that Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong>Pippen's importance on the 94' Bulls so I couldn't pass up the opportunity presented by his comments on 8/3 Kukoc by mentioning what Pippen did in 93'.

Understood. :)


MJ did have a triple double in that series. I think it was Game 5. That is one reason he won so many championships. Even when he shot poorly he could do so many other things to help his team. He almost even led the team in rebounding in the 97' playoffs (Rodman averaged only 8 boards that year in the playoffs. He averaged more technical than rebounds that year :oldlol: ).

Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.

[EricForman]

But Roundball_Rock, you are getting overly defensive. You talk about the trolls that could come in this thread, yet you look at his username and avatar, and reply by posting something negative about Magic Johnson. Why don't you start the thread about Magic running Westhead out of town?

Then you dictate what legit replies are supposed to look like.

Anyway, I remember that the incident was not a big deal to me personally. We didn't get full coverage of the playoffs back then with preview shows and post game analyses. All we got was live games and the newspaper recaps. Kukoc made the shot. The Bulls won. I was happy.

Even the Pippen-Jordan spat in game 1 of the 98 finals was not a big deal to me. I knew they were veterans and would come back stronger. And they did.

He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.

yeah.

[Roundball_Rock]

He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.

yeah.

Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant>Garnett/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Perkins. They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'. The team MJ fans kept citing as the team that would stop them was the 0 championship Knicks. That "juggernaut" had trouble with Indiana (Pippen/Johnson/Richmond>Miller/Smits/Davis) and needed the refs to bail them out against Pippen/Grant/Armstrong/and scrubs in 94'. Yet they were going to dominate Pippen/Johnson/Richmond/Smits/Grant? :roll:

You could post a hypothetical about Pippen playing with Kareem, Duncan, Magic and Kobe and MJ fans would still argue he wouldn't win anything even though he came within 2 minutes of a ring with Rasheed Wallace/Steve Smith in 00' while past his prime (with prime Pippen that team wins) and we all know about Hollins and 94'. :oldlol: @ MJ fans claiming the Knicks would have won Game 6 if they lost Game 5. They lost 15 of 16 in Chicago and something like 8 or 9 straight by the end of 1994.


Agreed on Jordan. I'm not sure what happened to Rodman in the 97 playoffs, although I heard that he just wasn't getting his head in the games. I thought he redeemed himself a bit when he nearly played the whole season the next year and helped Chicago deal with losing Scottie for nearly half the year, though as well as giving Malone a headache at certain periods of the Finals.

It's Rodman. You never know what is going on with Rodman, even to this day. :oldlol: Was 97' the year his popularity peaked? Was that the year of the book tour, the Carmen Electra gimmick marriage, etc.?

[guy]

What do you expect? 0/0/0? Even Vince Carter was still scoring 16 ppg when he "quit" in Toronto (28 ppg when he left!). This applies to other sports. When Moss quit did he have 0 catches? When Jarno Trulli wanted to make a point he finish last? No, he ran mid-pack all race and then ran by far his fastest lap on the final one to make a point.

So you're comparing 1 game of Jordan's to 20 games of Vince's?



No one can know for sure. There is circumstantial evidence to look at.

28 FGA in 15 games, 8 FGA in that game.

From 1991 onward we have game logs for the playoffs. Here is the lowest number of shots MJ took in any playoff game in each season:

1991: 15
1992: 22
1993: 18
1995: 19
1996: 14
1997: 15
1998: 14

If you want to believe it is just a coincidence that his FGA never approached 8 in any game through six championship runs more power to you. If you want to believe he went from 28 FGA in the playoffs to 8 (25 in the very next game) coincidentally more power to you. The circumstantial evidence is clear.

I don't think its a coincidence. Jordan was asked by his coach to shoot less and pass more. So he did. That doesn't mean his intentions were bad. Did you even watch the game? IMO I don't see how you can call what he did "quitting". Like Da Realist said, he didn't camp out behind the 3point line like Kobe did, and he didn't take himself out of the game like Pippen did. Jordan still put a ton of effort in that game. Thats not quitting. Its obvious he went overboard and was TOO passive, but that doesn't mean he had bad intentions.


Of course, maybe he did have somewhat bad intentions and was trying to make a point (doesn't mean he quit, cause if you watch that game its clear he didn't). All I'm saying is one paragraph without much detail from a book by a biased journalist with an agenda who's main objective was to greatly highlight Jordan's flaws isn't a great source and doesn't hold much weight to me and IMO probably does not to most people.




Sam Smith knows more about the inner workings of that team than anyone here. He can't be summarily dismissed.


Of course he shouldn't. I'm sure whatever Sam has said in the past does have some truth to it. But as a journalist who's had an agenda against Jordan, you can't dismiss the great possibility that he greatly exaggerates and twists the truths in order to fit that agenda.

[raptorfan_dr07]

They may not have won six but they would be the favorites practically every year from 91' to 97' or 98'.

No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:

[Roundball_Rock]

All good points, guy.


No, they would not. Anyone who believes they would be the favorites pratically every year to win it all is stupid. :rolleyes:

Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.

Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?

[poido123]

All good points, guy.



Been there, done that. There was a long thread on it. The one team MJ fans (no one else obsessed with dissing that team and I notice that aren't dissing the Jordan/Pippen/Malone hypothetical and they positively gushed about MJ/Hakeem/Drexler) kept pointing to as the savior was the Knicks.

Stupid? Dazzle us with your brilliance. Who would be favored over them in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998? Give specific teams for specific years, not a generic "the Knicks", "Seattle." That scenario had the best SF of the 90's, the second or third best SG of the 90's, the second or third best PG of the 90's playing with two all-star caliber big men with players like BJ Armstrong and Toni Kukoc leading the bench. What teams boasted a better roster?

Raptorsfan where are you? people don't hang around when they can't handle the truth :confusedshrug:

[Bodhi]

I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.

And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.

[indiefan23]

Hmm... he was thinking "I've had a terrible, terrible game. I don't want to lose it for my team." Nice try though.

[RainierBeachPoet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flqc9tSmfxE&feature=video_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtF-DtYBi8E

The game in which Phil Jackson went to Kukoc for the game winning shot instead of Pippen. And Pippen at the worst possible time let his insecurities get to him and exploded with anger. Go to the first vid and skip to 9:13, Pippen wanted the Bulls to inbound him the ball with 1.8 sec left. What was Pippen thinking? Why didn't Pippen want the timeout? Maybe he knew Jackson was going with Kukoc for the Final shot instead of him. And if you notice in the second vid, Pippen is not even on the floor for the Bulls final possession and he is no where to be found after Kukoc hit the game winning shot. I'm sorry, but this is a total dick move by Pippen. I bring the subject up because it seems like everyone has forgotten about the incident, just refreshing people's minds.

i watched this game live and when it all went down, i just couldnt believe it. i had never seen a pro athlete do anything like pippen did at a time like this

it is one of the reasons that my respect for pippen dropped tremendously after this incident-- no matter how much he tried to apologize afterwards

[Mister JT]

I didn't read this topic, but the Pippen hate really bothers me. This guy was one of the best defensive players of all time and he voluntarily allowed himself to be a #2 option for 6 title runs.

And don't forget that he was the leader of a team that almost upset Kobe/Shaq in 2000.

I don't think that you can say that he VOLUNTARILY ALLOWED himself to be the number 2 option for 6 title runs. He wasn't gonna be the Bulls' number 1 option as long as MJ was playing, even if he tried his absolute best to be one.

However, if you mean that he STUCK IT OUT with the Bulls longer than he had to, despite how Krause treated him, to win 5 or 6 championships instead of maybe 4 or 5, then I agree with you.

[guy]

I don't think that you can say that he VOLUNTARILY ALLOWED himself to be the number 2 option for 6 title runs. He wasn't gonna be the Bulls' number 1 option as long as MJ was playing, even if he tried his absolute best to be one.

However, if you mean that he STUCK IT OUT with the Bulls longer than he had to, despite how Krause treated him, to win 5 or 6 championships instead of maybe 4 or 5, then I agree with you.

I agree. One thing people don't seem to bring up with Pippen is that although he didn't seem to mind being a 2nd option, he had alot of problems with the fact that he was horribly underpaid. I think at anytime during those years if Pippen could've left the Bulls and gotten out of that contract and sign a better contract with another team, he would've. I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying he was already stuck in a situation that Jerry Krause wasn't going to get him out of, so he made the most of it.

[Juges8932]

Was the Kerr play called for Kerr?



The play was changed to him. Who knows what he would have done if it remained designed for Corzine. Why was he even arguing? Those are precious seconds with the season on the line and he was wasting time calling for the ball instead of discussing how to perfectly execute the play.

He did in effect bench himself in Game 5 of the ECF with the series tied 2-2. He took 8 shots the entire game. Why? His coach (Collins) asked him to pass the ball more because he was taking over 30% of the shots. He tanked a game with the series tied. He gets a free pass for this?



Ask his teammates or Jackson what he did. When a player was having a bad shooting night Pippen worked harder to get him the ball and would work the offense to get him a good shot to keep his confidence up and involved in the game. Some others tended to cut players off if that happened. Pippen offered constructive leadership. His leadership was one of encouragement, not scolding. He didn't sacrifice his stats or accolades? Pippen could have blown up the team a la Shaq-Kobe by demanding a trade so he could win as "the man" or demanding more shots.



It is annoying for over a decade to see Pippen get crucified for this while Jordan, Kobe, a certain 60's great among others all get a free pass for doing similar things during entire games or halves of important games, not merely refusing to inbound the ball. In Magic's case getting a coach who just led you to a championship was selfish yet Magic is presented as the ultimate team player. Good. He was--just like Pippen. Yet Pippen's black mark on his copybook is always mentioned while Magic's not so much. These are just a few exampes.



Nah, at least not thus far. Some good may come out this thread. The people who bring this up the most here are MJ fans. If they learn that their hero had similar, arguably worse (one play vs. an entire game) moments maybe they will stop doing it. 99% of his fans don't even know about what he did because it has been airbrushed from history.



Dominant defender? Pippen was a very good three point shooter but I wouldn't compare his three point shot to Reggie Miller's.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, but Kobe gets a free pass? LOL. Where have you been the last 5 years? Kobe gets crucified for every little fault he makes. Nothing has been forgotten about Kobe. Pippen has one thing that people remember in a negative light, and as for myself, I don't even talk about that when discussing Pippen's greatness.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop playing. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...

1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be selfish. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.

2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.

By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.

*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.

As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.

RR, I got your PM's. I'll respond when I get a chance. Family's visiting for the holidays...

Videos updated...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan had 18 points, 5 rebounds and 9 assists.

Here's the game for those interested. It's one of those games I want to update (add more footage and improve the quality) but there's enough for anyone to watch and make up their own minds.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tjhunt76#g/c/E996199CF0192C40

My opinion is Jordan didn't shoot as much as he usually did or as much as he should have, but he didn't stop playing. He still played great d, dished the ball... It wasn't the same as what Kobe did against the Suns where he totally stopped playing and camped out behind the 3 pt line. But that's my opinion.

By the way...did I read that Doug Collins wanted to go to Dave Corzine on the last play in Cleveland with the Bulls down one? If he did, I have two thoughts...

1) Jordan should have been mad. Dave f*cking Corzine??? He had a nice little jumpshot that he could knock down from time to time when he was wide open, but c'mon. Jordan being mad at that (if true) is what separates him from the rest. He knew he had a better chance to make the shot than anyone else on the team and he probably would have gone out in the first round if he decided to be a "team player" in that situation. Guess what? Basketball rewards team play... but there are times when it pays to be selfish. That's a dirty little secret no one wants to admit because it doesn't sound good. Just like there are times to lie. But that's another thread.

2) Doug Collins should have been fired if he called that play for Dave Corzine. I don't believe it. Doug is smarter than that. Jordan was going OFF that quarter and had knocked down the Bulls' previous shot to give them the lead before Ehlo put Cleveland back in the lead.

By the way...since everything these days seem to be centered on how selfish Jordan was...some of you ought to read Craig Hodges account of what happened on that last play. He said he screwed up by allowing Ehlo to backdoor him for the layup. After the play, Jordan came over and told him, "don't worry. I'm not going to let us lose this game." I forgot where I heard/read this. Maybe in David Halberstam's book.

*edit* I just looked at the replays. Dave Corzine wasn't even on the court! I skimmed through the whole 4th quarter, I didn't see Dave Corzine until the Bulls called a timeout and he was wearing his warmup jacket :oldlol: The lineup was Jordan, Hodges, Pippen, Grant and Cartwright for most of the fourth quarter with Sellers getting some time at the end.

As far as Pippen's play...I never hammered him for it. It was a selfish move...but I understand that sometimes you have to be selfish. Not all the time. Not most of the time, but sometimes. He thought that was his time and he wanted to take it. He paid his dues and felt like he deserved it. I never thought any less of Scottie for that moment.

Yo DR,

Do you still have some of these games on DVD? Was looking to acquire a few.

Can't message you here but throw me an email: goldenhoops32@gmail.com -- look forward to hearing from you

[nayte]

He's a pip fanboy, so he gets a bit defensive. i mean he actually thinks pip with mitch richmond, kevin johnson and rik smits would top 6 rings in the 90s. so he thinks they could win 7 rings in the 90s. with that lineup.

yeah.

This take is a banger.lol.
Tho they would be playoff contenders

[ShawkFactory]

This take is a banger.lol.
Tho they would be playoff contenders

Even if that team was completely average after the top 4 that’s still easily one of the best teams in the league.

[BarberSchool]

Everyone in Chicago remembers this, even if they weren’t alive when it happened. Their older relatives told them about it.

Really harmed Pippen’s legacy amongst all the non-black fans.
Often, it’s the second thing old white dudes mention about pippen, after saying what a well rounded perennial all star he was. Sometimes the first thing older Balkans living in Chicago bring up about Pippen.

[Jasper]

I'll give Knicks the nod in 7