Lebron James today vs. Michael Jordan in his 7th NBA season?

[cotdt]

Who was the better player, Lebron today or Jordan in 1991 (his best year)?

Lebron this season:
0 rings
28.9 ppg on 60.0% TS, 7.1 rpg, 7.8 apg

Jordan in 1991:
0 rings
31.5 ppg on 60.5% TS, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg

This is by far Lebron's most efficient season ever. Lebron is just as efficient a scorer as Jordan despite not having nearly as good a midrange or post game. Who was the better player at the same point in time, Lebron or Jordan?

[catch24]

eFG/FG % > TS

[itsGameTime]

Who was the better player, Lebron today or Jordan in 1991 (his best year)?

Lebron this season:
0 rings
28.9 ppg on 60.0% TS, 7.1 rpg, 7.8 apg

Jordan in 1991:
0 rings
31.5 ppg on 60.5% TS, 6.0 rpg, 5.5 apg

This is by far Lebron's most efficient season ever. Lebron is just as efficient a scorer as Jordan despite not having nearly as good a midrange or post game. Who was the better player at the same point in time, Lebron or Jordan?


TS = BS unless you can explain where all the #s in the formula came from and why they were chosen.

[Alhazred]

Jordan. He was still capable of 30/8/8 at that point and averaged 11 apg in the Finals.

[Manute for Ever!]

eFG/FG % > TS

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%

[Maneva]

Definitely MJ. Lebron's starting to get up there, though. Also, I really don't think you can rely too heavily on stats for a comparison like this. Not saying they don't mean anything, but still.

[Abraham Lincoln]

:oldlol:

[YAWN]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%
:applause:

[che guevara]

1991 was not Jordan's best statistical season. Jordan averaged 32.5/8/8 on 54% shooting with 3 steals per game in 1989.

To answer your question, Jordan. He had a better supporting cast in 1991, so he didn't have to put up numbers quite as big as he was capable of. He also won a ring, putting up ridiculous numbers in the Finals (something like 31/7/11.5).

[kells333]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%



This. People look way into stats on alot of players.

[catch24]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%

This is equally true. Jordan > LeBron's season

[chitownsfinest]

Gap ain't that big but MJ was better

[RaceBannana]

Watching the games and forming an unbiased opinion > eFG/FG%

Fixed..... which is very unlikely....

[AirJordan&Magic]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%

:applause: I agree. Kids overemphasize statistics too much.

and ts is bs to me.

Anyway, I don't even have to look at stats to say the Jordan was clearly better.

[sixer6ad]

Jordan. He was still capable of 30/8/8 at that point and averaged 11 apg in the Finals.

It may very be Jordan, but don't you think actually avering the numbers (LBJ) is a little stronger than capable of doing it ?(MJ)

[sixer6ad]

This. People look way into stats on alot of players.

Would championships be included in stats?

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol @ anyone saying Lebron or that it's "close." :oldlol: 1991 was one of Jordan's top two seasons (the other being 1990). He also played a then career low 37.0 mpg that year. No way is current Lebron close to ultra-peak Jordan. It's like a 10% difference in impact imo.

[lbj23clutch]

LMAO @ using eFG% :oldlol: Anyways, Jordan>LeBron easily... Especially if you look what MJ did during the finals in that particular year.

[Roundball_Rock]

That is a bit of an unfair comparison. Jordan was 27--in his physical peak (27-30 years old for most basketball players)--in 91'. Lebron is 25 and yet to reach his physical peak. Let's compare them in 2-3 years...


Especially if you look what MJ did during the finals in that particular year.

Lebron had 35/9/7 in the playoffs last year. Jordan had 31/6/8 in the 91' playoffs (31/7/11 in the finals). Jordan's best playoff year (10 games or more) in statistical terms was 37/7/7. Statistically there isn't a huge gap between their best playoff runs. The thing is Jordan's record is in the books. Lebron's best years are yet to come. 91' Jordan was better than 10' Lebron but let's compare Lebron in 2012-14 when he reaches his physical peak with Jordan.


He also played a then career low 37.0 mpg that year

Lebron is at 38 mpg this year so mpg is not a factor here.

[Jacks3]

:oldlol: @ the people acting like it's not close.

[RoseCity07]

Jordan could average less points but still change the game with his smart play. Can you post their PERs?

I just think Jordan was a smarter and more skilled player.

[SAKOTXA]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[madmax]

Jorda stans are in denial - no matter similar PER and efficiency numbers, they still claim "it's not even close"...:roll: :roll: I guess nostalgia is still going strong for some oldtimers...

[DatDudeD]

if u look at raw stats its not that much of a difference if any at all... bottom lime Lebron isnt that far off.

[cotdt]

MJ was more clutch but Lebron has longer range. Most of Lebron's jumpshots are long 2's. MJ's '91 PER is very slightly higher but not significant.

[OldSchoolBBall]

1991 Jordan was in a whole different universe defensively (one of his two best defensive seasons, 1990 being his best imo), waaaay more skilled, far better game management, and far more clutch on top of the numbers. And he did it without dominating the ball (he had a teammate averaging >6 apg and another couple of guys ~4 apg.

Allow 1991 MJ to handle the ball as much as Lebron does and play pick and roll ball and he'd pit up monstrous numbers, like 30/7/9.

[halffttime]

i never understand why people even bother trying to pick one guy over the other. of course it's all for discussion, but do you actually expect a concluding answer lol? you see it in all the other threads, posters going back and forth trying to make an argument for their idol.. it's kobe this, it's jordan that, it's lebron this, it's eric dampier that. you will NEVER get a definite answer.

FACT: jordan and lebron are both respectively beasts

FACT: i'm biased towards mj :lol

if you are going to compare their 7th NBA season, i think the best way would be by their stats and of course a championship. i understand why people would say you can't really judge them by stats alone, but how the hell would you? the eras they played in aren't that far apart and there isn't that much difference in how the game's been played (cue hand check rule). unless you throw them in their together, which you can't unless you find the fountain of youth for mj, there really isn't another way to compare the two.

i will say that it is a close margin that separates the two and lebron maybe even have the 1 up for stats alone, but i will have to give it to jordan for winning the championship.


edit:
i think the best way to figure out who's better would be to put '91 Jordan into '09 LeBron's shoes and vice versa, and see who would lead their teams further.. don't even bother comparing the competition lol.

[Luigi]

i never understand why people even bother trying to pick one guy over the other. of course it's all for discussion, but do you actually expect a concluding answer lol? you see it in all the other threads, posters going back and forth trying to make an argument for their idol.. it's kobe this, it's jordan that, it's lebron this, it's eric dampier that. you will NEVER get a definite answer.

FACT: jordan and lebron are both respectively beasts

FACT: i'm biased towards mj :lol

if you are going to compare their 7th NBA season, i think the best way would be by their stats and of course a championship. i understand why people would say you can't really judge them by stats alone, but how the hell would you? the eras they played in aren't that far apart and there isn't that much difference in how the game's been played (cue hand check rule). unless you throw them in their together, which you can't unless you find the fountain of youth for mj, there really isn't another way to compare the two.

i will say that it is a close margin that separates the two and lebron maybe even have the 1 up for stats alone, but i will have to give it to jordan for winning the championship.

But James hasn't had his shot at the playoffs yet. It seems out of place to give the nod to Jordan for the end of a season that James hasn't played yet.

Thanks for the reasonable post. It saved this thread for me.:cheers:

[halffttime]

But James hasn't had his shot at the playoffs yet. It seems out of place to give the nod to Jordan for the end of a season that James hasn't played yet.

Thanks for the reasonable post. It saved this thread for me.:cheers:

my bad, i should have added "so far" in there somewhere..

[Stoney]

i never understand why people even bother trying to pick one guy over the other. of course it's all for discussion, but do you actually expect a concluding answer lol? you see it in all the other threads, posters going back and forth trying to make an argument for their idol.. it's kobe this, it's jordan that, it's lebron this, it's eric dampier that. you will NEVER get a definite answer.

FACT: jordan and lebron are both respectively beasts

FACT: i'm biased towards mj :lol

if you are going to compare their 7th NBA season, i think the best way would be by their stats and of course a championship. i understand why people would say you can't really judge them by stats alone, but how the hell would you? the eras they played in aren't that far apart and there isn't that much difference in how the game's been played (cue hand check rule). unless you throw them in their together, which you can't unless you find the fountain of youth for mj, there really isn't another way to compare the two.

i will say that it is a close margin that separates the two and lebron maybe even have the 1 up for stats alone, but i will have to give it to jordan for winning the championship.


edit:
i think the best way to figure out who's better would be to put '91 Jordan into '09 LeBron's shoes and vice versa, and see who would lead their teams further.. don't even bother comparing the competition lol.

:roll:
That was hilarious :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

@ the people acting like it's not close.


Jorda stans are in denial - no matter similar PER and efficiency numbers, they still claim "it's not even close"... I guess nostalgia is still going strong for some oldtimers...

This is why, despite being arguably the GOAT, he has managed to be overrated. In any comparison he has to be light years ahead of the other guy. He has to be the best at every aspect of basketball. The best leader, the best clutch player, the best dunker, the most intelligent player, the most skilled, etc. The only things he isn't alleged to be the best in are things that would be absurd on their face like three point shooting and rebounding. :oldlol:

The comparison is close today. Lebron just turned 25. We are talking about what he did at age 24 for a few months in 09' and comparing it to peak Jordan. If it is close now how will things look when Lebron reaches his physical peak in 2-3 years?


Can you post their PERs?


I hate PER but here you go:

Jordan 91' 31.6 (career high 31.7)
Lebron 10' 30.5 (career high 31.7--last year)

Jordan 91' playoffs 32.0 (career high)
Lebron 09' playoffs 37.4 (career high)


And he did it without dominating the ball

Field Goal Attempts
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 1837
2. Patrick Ewing*-NYK 1645
3. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 1640
4. Karl Malone-UTA 1608
5. Tim Hardaway-GSW 1551

Field Goal Attempts
1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 746
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 705
3. LeBron James-CLE 700
4. Monta Ellis-GSW 694
5. Kevin Durant-OKC 676

FGA per game

Jordan 22.4
Lebron 20.0

Jordan 91' playoffs 22.1 (career low--26.4 in the 92' playoffs)
Lebron 09' playoffs 22.3

Even when Lebron got to the finals he averaged "only" 20.0 FGA per game in the playoffs. Jordan averaged 26.4 in the 92' playoffs and 27.8 in the 93' playoffs. :oldlol: @ MJ being portrayed as sharing the wealth. Jordan led the league in FGA more than anyone in history. Jordan was #2 in FGA per game--at age 38 (behind Iverson). At age 39 he was still top 10. The guy always "got his". Your response will be we are talking about MJ. Him shooting that much was a good thing. That is besides the point. The point is Lebron doesn't get the same scoring opportunities Jordan did and that has to be considered with respect to scoring if we are going to consider him playing point forward with respect to assists.


(he had a teammate averaging >6 apg and another couple of guys ~4 apg.

91' Bulls' apg

Pippen 6.2
Jordan 5.5
Armstrong 3.7
Paxson 3.6
Grant 2.3

10' Cavs' apg

Lebron 7.8
Williams 4.9
West 3.0
Parker 1.8
O'Neal 1.4

Lebron played a greater role as a ballhandler; Jordan got more shots. Switch roles and Jordan would have more assists but Lebron would average more points. Even last year Lebron took "only" 22.3 shots in the playoffs and averaged 35 ppg. Give him 27.8 shots and he would average 44 points. There are two sides to this. What is more impressive? 30/7/9 or 44/8/5?


if you are going to compare their 7th NBA season, i think the best way would be by their stats and of course a championship.

How can we compare championships when Lebron is not even at the all-star break yet in his 7th season? We can compare their first six seasons.

Jordan: first round loss, first round loss, first round loss, second round loss, ECF, ECF
Lebron: missed playoffs, missed playoffs, second round loss, NBA finals, second round loss, ECF

Jordan (inheriting a 27 win team): 38-44, 9-9, 40-42, 50-32, 47-35, 55-27
Lebron (inheriting a 17 win team): 35-47, 42-40, 50-32, 50-32, 45-37, 66-16

In his seventh season Jordan's team went 61-21 and won the championship. Cleveland is on pace to go 63-19 this year. This doesn't factor in teammates. Jordan had Pippen and Grant. Lebron has Mo Williams and a 37 year old Shaq as his best teammates.

[DukeDelonte13]

The fact that the stats are so close and Lebron just turned 25 is a testament to how great and rare of a player Lebron is.

[Jacks3]

1991 Jordan was in a whole different universe defensively (one of his two best defensive seasons, 1990 being his best imo), waaaay more skilled, far better game management, and far more clutch on top of the numbers. And he did it without dominating the ball (he had a teammate averaging >6 apg and another couple of guys ~4 apg.

Allow 1991 MJ to handle the ball as much as Lebron does and play pick and roll ball and he'd pit up monstrous numbers, like 30/7/9.
lol where is the proof of this?

[1~Gibson~1]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%
:oldlol:

[lefthook00]

1991 Jordan was in a whole different universe defensively (one of his two best defensive seasons, 1990 being his best imo), waaaay more skilled, far better game management, and far more clutch on top of the numbers. And he did it without dominating the ball (he had a teammate averaging >6 apg and another couple of guys ~4 apg.

Allow 1991 MJ to handle the ball as much as Lebron does and play pick and roll ball and he'd pit up monstrous numbers, like 30/7/9.

This. MJ b/c of the D.

[OldSchoolBBall]

lol where is the proof of this?

lol @ asking for proof for stuff like that. How about you go watch the games? :oldlol:

Roundball, you're crazy if you think that Jordan had the ball in his hands anywhere near as much as Lebron does in terms of clock time. The more you have the ball in your hands, especially if you're playing P&R basketball as opposed to a structured system like the triangle, the more opportunities you have to make stat-generating plays. That's a fact. Lebron has the ball in his hands at least 30% more per possession than Jordan did.


Even last year Lebron took "only" 22.3 shots in the playoffs and averaged 35 ppg. Give him 27.8 shots and he would average 44 points. There are two sides to this. What is more impressive? 30/7/9 or 44/8/5?

First off, scoring doesn't scale like that, but I don't expect someone with a history of superficial analysis to understand that. Efficiency doesn't remain the same at higher shot volume, especially at SIGNIFICANTLY higher shot volume. Lebron also averaged 14.2 FTA per game last postseason (far more than MJ ever took in any extended playoff run; only one of MJ's postseasons even approaches that, at 13.4 FTA/gm; every other playoff run he was at or under 10 FTA/gm), and that would scale either if he took more shots, because it's already an absurd number.

[Jacks3]

lol typical Jordan stan. Just throwing out a bunch of general statements and expecting everybody to take it as fact. :roll:

[Batman]

Jordan now tomorrow forever.LeBron is a stat whore.

[Jacks3]

LeBron in 09 had a defense rating of 99, which is better than Jordan ever had. His defensive wins share was 6.5, which is higher than Jordan ever had. lol @ Jordan being ' a way better' defensive player. :oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron lost not only with HCA but with the best record in the league despite not one analyst saying they would beat Orlando.

In fact, only Boston was the only one who was to beat Cleveland in the east.

[Duncan21formvp]

LeBron in 09 had a defense rating of 99, which is better than Jordan ever had. His defensive wins share was 6.5, which is higher than Jordan ever had. lol @ Jordan being ' a way better' defensive player. :oldlol:

Lamar Odom had a higher defensive win share and defensive rating than Kobe Bryant last year as well. Yet Odom didn't make the 1st team defense.

:oldlol:

[madmax]

Jordan now tomorrow forever.LeBron is a stat whore.

And Jordan somehow isn't?:roll: If Jordan was so "unselfish" and tended to "share" the ball, why was he shooting much more than Lebron? Or does he have a pass here just because he's "Jordan" ands he's obligated to? I've seen plenty of that guy to know that he is one of the most selfish superstars of all time...

[OmniStrife]

I just love it how people expect players to play great without getting very high stats.

I guess Lebron should go to the refs after a game and demand his stats to be devided by 2.

Stat-whoring is one thing. Stat-ignoring is another and is much worse imo.

Some people here are just plain retarded.

[Glide2keva]

And Jordan somehow isn't?:roll: If Jordan was so "unselfish" and tended to "share" the ball, why was he shooting much more than Lebron? Or does he have a pass here just because he's "Jordan" ands he's obligated to? I've seen plenty of that guy to know that he is one of the most selfish superstars of all time...
91 Finals, MJ averaged 11.7 APG.

How is that selfish?

I have the entire series on DVD and I can tell you he could've averaged 15 APG if it wasn't for other players missing shots on passes at the basket.

I suggest people go watch some games and get off the stats because stats only tell part of the story.

You had to have seen him play in order to be able to judge him against current players.

People tend to forget that in 89 when Doug Collins put MJ at point, he averaged a triple double, and almost had on in 11 straight games while scoring 41PPG during that span and he was getting over 12 APG during that span also.

Plus in his 69 point game he was two rebounds and 4 assists shy of having 69/20/10

Those are insane numbers.

Like I said before, go watch some games and some youtube highlights.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I also fin it amusing that many of these same trolls who are acting like it's Lebron or it's "very close" will in the next breath insist that Kobe > Lebron. Hysterical. Current Kobe is significantly worse than 1991 Jordan, yet they'll still maintain these inconsistent beliefs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball, you're crazy if you think that Jordan had the ball in his hands anywhere near as much as Lebron does in terms of clock time. The more you have the ball in your hands, especially if you're playing P&R basketball as opposed to a structured system like the triangle, the more opportunities you have to make stat-generating plays. That's a fact. Lebron has the ball in his hands at least 30% more per possession than Jordan did.

I agree. That is why I said if you switched their roles Jordan would have more assists and Lebron more points. Jordan was the primary scorer and secondary playmaker; Lebron is both the primary scorer and primary playmaker. If you asked Lebron to be less of a playmaker and more of a scorer he would naturally score more. You looked at only one side of the coin.


First off, scoring doesn't scale like that, but I don't expect someone with a history of superficial analysis to understand that. Efficiency doesn't remain the same at higher shot volume, especially at SIGNIFICANTLY higher shot volume.

Those weren't scientific numbers. They were to illustrate the general point. Let's give Lebron five more shots on:

50% shooting: 37.5 ppg
40% shooting: 37 ppg

This assumes he never takes a three and never goes to the line on those extra attempts. You mentioned he averages 14 FTA. He averaged 22 FGA. That ratio is 1.57-1. That means if he took five more shots he would get to the line 3.2 times more in a game. His FT percentage means he would score 2.5 more points per game from FTA's. So with 5 more shots he is up to 39.5-40 ppg and this is without taking into account three pointers. We are looking at 40-41/8/5 type numbers here and this is 24 year old Lebron (09' playoff numbers). What will he do when he reaches his physical peak, develops a post game and masters his jumper? :eek:


Lebron also averaged 14.2 FTA per game last postseason (far more than MJ ever took in any extended playoff run; only one of MJ's postseasons even approaches that, at 13.4 FTA/gm; every other playoff run he was at or under 10 FTA/gm),

Career wise, though, they are identical. Lebron 8.8; Jordan 8.2 and this is with MJ's FTA being dragged down by his old man years. In the playoffs their averages are 11.3 for Lebron and 9.9 for Jordan. There is no significant difference. We are talking about a difference of 1 ppg.


Jordan now tomorrow forever.LeBron is a stat whore.

How is Lebron a stat whore? He has never even led the league in shots taken. Jordan led the league in FGA more than anyone in history. Even at age 38 he was #2 behind AI in FGA per game. Yet you call Lebron a stat whore? If so what does that make MJ? :confusedshrug:


Lebron lost not only with HCA but with the best record in the league despite not one analyst saying they would beat Orlando.


Fair point but the flip side is you are penalizing Lebron for leading his team to 66 wins and rewarding Jordan for going 50-32. Forget records for a moment. Which team had better talent? Lebron did more with less. Delonte West was his third best player. :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Fair point but the flip side is you are penalizing Lebron for leading his team to 66 wins and rewarding Jordan for going 50-32. Forget records for a moment. Which team had better talent? Lebron did more with less. Delonte West was his third best player. :roll:

Not really!! Jordan won 2 titles with no other actual allstar on his team, while Lebron had another allstar on his team.

[beasly15]

i don't see why people would try to compare with jordan. nobody will be better than jordan. forget the numbers...

[Roundball_Rock]

Not really!! Jordan won 2 titles with no other actual allstar on his team, while Lebron had another allstar on his team.

We've been down this road before. Why the need to mislead people? If the claims made about Jordan are accurate there would be no need to. His record would be sufficient

Pippen in the 90' playoffs: 19/7/6 50%
Williams in the 09' playoffs: 16/3/4 41%

Grant in the 90' playoffs: 12/10/3 51%
West in the 09' playoffs: 14/4/4 47%

Pippen was an all-star as was Williams.

[RaceBannana]

How is Lebron a stat whore? He has never even led the league in shots taken.


yeah, because points and shots attempts are the only important stats....


Jordan now tomorrow forever.LeBron is a stat whore.

Lebron is a stat whore and Jordan is an even bigger one.

[Duncan21formvp]

We've been down this road before. Why the need to mislead people? If the claims made about Jordan are accurate there would be no need to. His record would be sufficient

Pippen in the 90' playoffs: 19/7/6 50%
Williams in the 09' playoffs: 16/3/4 41%

Grant in the 90' playoffs: 12/10/3 51%
West in the 09' playoffs: 14/4/4 47%

Pippen was an all-star as was Williams.

He still wasn't an allstar the Bulls won their 1st title nor in there last title. So it's either he wasn't an allstar because the league was just too deep or he wasn't an allstar because he just wasn't as good.

While Mo was an allstar because he was either really good, or because the talent was just weaker in the NBA?

IF you say Mo made it because the talent was weaker than you got your answer as well for the Cavs record.

[Jacks3]

I find it funny that the Jordan stan has no problem citing advanced stats to support Kobe>>Jordan, but will dismiss them when it comes to LeBron. In this case, LBJ has the better advanced stats across the board, and the Jordan trolls continue to think it's not close. ****ing moron.:oldlol:

[Duncan21formvp]

I find it funny that the Jordan stan has no problem citing advanced stats to support Kobe>>Jordan, but will dismiss them when it comes to LeBron. In this case, LBJ has the better advanced stats across the board, and the Jordan trolls continue to think it's not close.:oldlol:

Not really.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html


Why you duck my post.

Lamar Odom had a higher defensive win share and defensive rating than Kobe Bryant last year as well. Yet Odom didn't make the 1st team defense. Thus Odom > Kobe on defense.

[Roundball_Rock]

He still wasn't an allstar the Bulls won their 1st title nor in there last title. So it's either he wasn't an allstar because the league was just too deep or he wasn't an allstar because he just wasn't as good.

While Mo was an allstar because he was either really good, or because the talent was just weaker in the NBA?

IF you say Mo made it because the talent was weaker than you got your answer as well for the Cavs record.

East
Charles Barkley*
Larry Bird*
Joe Dumars*
Patrick Ewing*
Michael Jordan*
Kevin McHale*
Reggie Miller
Robert Parish*
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Isiah Thomas*
Dominique Wilkins*


I find it funny that the Jordan stan has no problem citing advanced stats to support Kobe>>Jordan, but will dismiss them when it comes to LeBron. In this case, LBJ has the better advanced stats across the board, and the Jordan trolls continue to think it's not close. ****ing moron.

:oldlol: The hoops they jump through is amazing.

duncan, you are comparing Jordan's career PER with Lebron's. Lebron has not even had his peak years. His PER likely will end up higher than it is today. Lebron's playoff PER last year was 37. Jordan's best year was 32. PER is a joke stat but if you are going to use it to say Jordan>Lebron at this point the evidence in reality is mixed.

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.83
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
5. Tim Duncan 26.09
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.58

Is the extra 2 significant anyway? Mikan>Shaq? T Mac>Kareem?

[Duncan21formvp]

duncan, you are comparing Jordan's career PER with Lebron's. Lebron has not even had his peak years. His PER likely will end up higher than it is today. Lebron's playoff PER last year was 37. Jordan's best year was 32. PER is a joke stat but if you are going to use it to say Jordan>Lebron at this point the evidence in reality is mixed.

Rank Player PER
1. Michael Jordan* 28.59
2. George Mikan* 28.51
3. LeBron James 26.83
4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.47
5. Tim Duncan 26.09
6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69
7. Tracy McGrady 24.66
8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.45
9. Charles Barkley* 24.18
10. Dwyane Wade 23.58

Is the extra 2 significant anyway? Mikan>Shaq? T Mac>Kareem?

One other thing about Playoff Win Shares and PER. Dirk had a higher PER and Win Shares in 2006 in the postseason than Wade, but would you say he was better when Wade won without HCA and beat Dirk in the finals?

Only thing that really matters is the finals. Playoffs come 2nd.

In the end though, this is all that matters to Lebron

http://www.posterized.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lebroncheckmystats.jpg




East
Charles Barkley*
Larry Bird*
Joe Dumars*
Patrick Ewing*
Michael Jordan*
Kevin McHale*
Reggie Miller
Robert Parish*
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Isiah Thomas*
Dominique Wilkins*

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1991.html

Pippen is not there. That's when the Bulls won their first title.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1998.html

Pippen is not there. That's when the Bulls won their last title.

[Roundball_Rock]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1991.html

Pippen is not there. That's when the Bulls won their first title.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/allstar/NBA_1998.html

Pippen is not there. That's when the Bulls won their last title.

It is kind of hard to make the all-star team when you played in only 9 games before the all-star break. Of course you knew that. This is what I was referring to. Why the need to mislead people? If the claims made about Jordan are accurate his record would speak for itself. There would be no need to try to tell a bunch of 20 year olds that Pippen was not an all-star level player in those years. In 98' he missed half the season yet still made an all-NBA team and he shut down the Utah offense in the NBA finals and the Indiana offense in the ECF. In 91' he was better than he was in 90'. He was snubbed by all accounts. In the playoffs he put up 22/9/6 and 21/9/7 in the NBA finals. Those are not all-star numbers? That doesn't even factor in his defense. Ask Phil Jackson or Magic Johnson about that.

[Duncan21formvp]

It is kind of hard to make the all-star team when you played in only 9 games before the all-star break. Of course you knew that. This is what I was referring to. Why the need to mislead people? If the claims made about Jordan are accurate his record would speak for itself. There would be no need to try to tell a bunch of 20 year olds that Pippen was not an all-star level player in those years. In 98' he missed half the season yet still made an all-NBA team and he shut down the Utah offense in the NBA finals and the Indiana offense in the ECF. In 91' he was better than he was in 90'. He was snubbed by all accounts. In the playoffs he put up 22/9/6 and 21/9/7 in the NBA finals. Those are not all-star numbers? That doesn't even factor in his defense. Ask Phil Jackson or Magic Johnson about that.

And that's why I said this.

So it's either he wasn't an allstar because the league was just too deep or he wasn't an allstar because he just wasn't as good.

While Mo was an allstar because he was either really good, or because the talent was just weaker in the NBA?

IF you say Mo made it because the talent was weaker than you got your answer as well for the Cavs record.



Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead because he is better?

[Leviathon1121]

Lamar Odom had a higher defensive win share and defensive rating than Kobe Bryant last year as well. Yet Odom didn't make the 1st team defense. Thus Odom > Kobe on defense.

We are still waiting for a comment on this from you Jacks3.

[Roundball_Rock]

So it's either he wasn't an allstar because the league was just too deep or he wasn't an allstar because he just wasn't as good.

He was an all-star the year before and the year after (and the year after, and the year after that and the year ever that...) so depth had nothing to do with it nor did a lack of ability. He was the fourth or fifth choice for the Dream Team (5th according to Simmons, 4th according to a 92' New York Times article) after the 91' season and Bird was one of the top three picks based on his career achievement, not because he was a top 3 player in 91'.


While Mo was an allstar because he was either really good, or because the talent was just weaker in the NBA?

Deron Williams has never been an all-star. Does that mean he has not been great for years? How weak is the talent if he is being snubbed? You can cherry pick a weak all-star for a given year like Williams but on the other hand there is always going to be a major snub every year.

Why is dilution being invoked in a Jordan vs. Lebron thread? There were 30 teams by 96', 28' by 91' and 26' in 90'. I may be off by a year or two but the point stands. For three of Jordan's titles he had as many teams as today's league and for the others the difference was not significant. If you want to go down the dilution route then you have to compare the 60's, 70's and 80's favorably versus the 90's. Jordan fans invoke dilution vis-a-vis the 2000's but then act as if the 90's were not more diluted then the previous decades--when the other GOAT candidates played (minus Shaq).


Let's say Lebron had Iverson instead of Mo Williams, how do they do? Do they necessarily win with a guy that is a top 35 player all time instead because he is better?

If there were no chemistry issues, yes if you are talking about prime Iverson. Iverson even today=Mo Williams. He has averaged 16/4 in Philadelphia and is steadily improving. Williams is at 17/4.

[OldSchoolBBall]

In this case, LBJ has the better advanced stats across the board, and the Jordan trolls continue to think it's not close. ****ing moron.:oldlol:

Uhh, no he doesn't. I think you need to look at those numbers again. Lebron has one season equal to MJ's peak by PER and another 1-2 in the same ballpark, but lower than MJ's 4 year peak. Ditto Win Shares, Player Wins, Wins Produced etc.

[Duncan21formvp]

He was an all-star the year before and the year after (and the year after, and the year after that and the year ever that...) so depth had nothing to do with it nor did a lack of ability. He was the fourth or fifth choice for the Dream Team (5th according to Simmons, 4th according to a 92' New York Times article) after the 91' season and Bird was one of the top three picks based on his career achievement, not because he was a top 3 player in 91'.


Yes he was chosen and a big reason I remember is that Jordan said he wouldn't play if they didn't choose Pippen to go to the Olympics. He had the utmost respect for him.

Anyway, Im not sure why you keep bringing up Pippen in threads. He was good and became good because he went against MJ daily in practice.

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg




“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091030.html

Sam: I know there's that "he's a rookie thing," though I thought more with Rose was the way he drove and then was so quick he could avoid the contact. I think with him he was more accustomed to having just come out of playing in the Chicago playgrounds where you aren't going to get calls going to the basket. I remember watching Jordan not long after Pippen joined the Bulls showing Pippen how to drive and go into a defender and then finish your shot. Wade was a more mature player having gone to college several years, and Anthony played in the post and inside a lot. That's one area for Rose for improve. He's a quick study and I think you'll see him taking the hit since he's strong and can do it and drawing more calls this season.



http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/asksam_091023.html



Would you still consider pippen to be included on the 50 greatest players list? I know that he pioneered/changed the way that his position was played creating more of a point-forward spot, which paved the way for players like melo and lebron. But he never did accomplish anything by himself, and proved in Portland that he couldn't carry a team.


Sam: You can't judge with Portland given he was well past his athletic prime and had lost basically all his explosiveness and was operating on guile. He was a much smarter player than ever given credit for, though many still question his top 50 inclusion. The notion is if not for Jordan, there would be no chance. And I tend to agree. If he were picked by the Clippers at No. 4 in that draft as he should have been, he would not have been a top 50 player because he couldn't create that much for himself. But he wasn't and he was the No. 2 part of six championships and was a multiple defensive player and gold medalist on the Dream Team. So he deserves the recognition and will be inducted into the Hall of Fame as a result. Most everyone who has succeeded has benefitted from good timing on occasion. Pippen did as well, but he also made the most of it.


Again, there is a difference developing your game playing with a player that is widely considered the best to ever play and him leaving in the middle of his prime while you are now in yours and you benefiting from one another.

Example:
If a person studies to be an electrician and starts off a learner, but eventually he becomes a "journeymen" and he still works with the "master electrician" for a few years, what happens when the "master electrician" decides to move on?
Does the "journeymen" all of a sudden lose his ability to perform his duties because their is no "master electrician" around?
Or does he increase his knowledge benefiting from what was taught by the "master electrician" and being surrounded by the best in the occupation and applying what he learned to himself?

If he doesn't then it means the "master electrician" either wasn't a good teacher or he didnt know how to utilize his talents and assets well and/or that the "journeymen" didn't take to heart the dedication to put into learning the trade.


I will admit though that Pippen is a top 7 in the 90's. I have Barkley and Robinson ahead because they did win MVP's and finish in the top 3 in MVP voting multiple times.

1) Jordan
2) Hakeem
3) Shaq
4) Malone
5) Barkley
6) Robinson
7) Pippen/Payton/Drexler/Ewing/Stockton
12) Mourning/KJ




If there were no chemistry issues, yes if you are talking about prime Iverson. Iverson even today=Mo Williams. He has averaged 16/4 in Philadelphia and is steadily improving. Williams is at 17/4.

Well I asked this to many Cavs fans and they all said they would have been worse with Iverson even though he is better.

[Jacks3]

We're not discussing careers or 4-yr stretches. The OP specified 90-91 Jordan vs current LeBron. Obviously, since it's only been about 30 games this year and LBJ is essentially the same player, you have to look at his 08-09 season.
LBJ in 08-09 had the better Drtg, higher regular season PER, and a considerably better play-off PER. LBJ also had the higher WS and a better defensive WS.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Those weren't scientific numbers. They were to illustrate the general point. Let's give Lebron five more shots on:

50% shooting: 37.5 ppg
40% shooting: 37 ppg

This assumes he never takes a three and never goes to the line on those extra attempts. You mentioned he averages 14 FTA. He averaged 22 FGA. That ratio is 1.57-1. That means if he took five more shots he would get to the line 3.2 times more in a game. His FT percentage means he would score 2.5 more points per game from FTA's. So with 5 more shots he is up to 39.5-40 ppg and this is without taking into account three pointers. We are looking at 40-41/8/5 type numbers here and this is 24 year old Lebron (09' playoff numbers). What will he do when he reaches his physical peak, develops a post game and masters his jumper? :eek:

This is so superficial and, frankly, braindead, that I don't know where to begin. You think he's going to get to the line 17.4 times per game (14.2 + 3.2) over the course of a season? :oldlol: You're looking at a very limited sample size rather than an entire season and extrapolating. Call me when Lebron averages 35 ppg on 23 FGA over the course of a season.

[Roundball_Rock]

Uhh, no he doesn't. I think you need to look at those numbers again. Lebron has one season equal to MJ's peak by PER and another 1-2 in the same ballpark, but lower than MJ's 4 year peak. Ditto Win Shares, Player Wins, Wins Produced etc.

Let's post the numbers and let people reach their own conclusions.

Lebron's PER by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

18.3
25.7
28.1/23.2
24.5/23.9
29.1/24.3
31.7/37.4
30.5

What Jordan fans cleverly do is act as if Lebron did not come out of high school and that Lebron has had his best years. Jordan came out of perhaps the best college program in the country coached by Dean Smith and was 27, a player's physical peak, in the final year of the OP's comparison. Of course Jordan's career numbers are going to look better. Of course, you know that. Superficial analysis. :oldlol:

Jordan's PER by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

25.8/24.7
27.5/30.1
29.8/28.1
31.7/28.4
31.1/29.9
31.2/31.6
31.6/32.0

Jordan's career high was 31.7. Lebron has already matched that. His best playoff run already>Jordan's in PER. 37.4 versus 32.0. He could reach the low 40's when he peaks. :eek:


Lebron's Win Shares by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

5.1
14.3
16.3/1.7
13.7/3.7
15.2/2.2
20.3/4.8
19.0 (pace over 82 games)


Jordan's Win Shares by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

14.0/0.7
6.8 (pace over 82 games)/0.5
16.9/0.4
21.2/2.1
19.8/4.0
19.0/4.0
20.3/4.8

Jordan's playoff best is 4.8. Lebron has already matched that. Jordan's regular season best is 21.2 and Lebron already has been close to that.

Regarding win shares, Jordan has the edge in regular season win shares but Lebron in playoff win shares. What is clear is the gap is not huge, even though Lebron came out of high school and has yet to reach his physical peak.

[GP_20]

Watching the games and forming an opinion > eFG/FG%
And that can lead to some opinions such as Iverson more efficient than Jordan at scoring, to Kobe shoots a higher % than Nash. Point is, everyone is different and will have a slightly different (often skewed and biased) view on the game, giving us results far more absurd than even statistics.

[OldSchoolBBall]

LBJ also had the higher WS and a better defensive WS.

2009 Lebron and 1991 MJ had the same exact WS (20.3). What are you talking about?

lol @ talking about DRtg and DWS, btw. :oldlol: Both are highly flawed metrics.

[catch24]

Don't even see how this is debatable (not saying MJ is light years away). Jordan was the better shooter. His FT %, mid range game, and 3PT shooting, when shooting the same number of 3PT attempts, were higher. He was more clutch (going by numerous quotes from the media, coaches, and his peers -- using the criteria of 82games, you can pull up many videos from YouTube during that particular season, where he single-handedly took over games in the playoffs. ie: Pistons, Sixers and Lakers). His defense was/is not based on 'win shares'. Anyone who's watched his career vividly, he was well known for his on/off the ball denial, sound man defense (early in his career, he played the passing lanes more). Jordan's killer instinct and competitive drive, mostly, is what separates him from LeBron. You could tell in the dude's eyes he wanted it like no other player during '91. I firmly believe Jordan '91 was on another level in terms of perimeter play.

[Jacks3]

2009 Lebron and 1991 MJ had the same exact WS (20.3). What are you talking about?

lol @ talking about DRtg and DWS, btw. :oldlol: Both are highly flawed metrics.
True. They did have the same WS, but my other numbers are correct. LBJ beats out a prime Jordan.:oldlol: As for you're second point, naturally, if it doesn't support Jordan, it's highly flawed. :roll:

[catch24]

2009 Lebron and 1991 MJ had the same exact WS (20.3). What are you talking about?

lol @ talking about DRtg and DWS, btw. :oldlol: Both are highly flawed metrics.

Put that imbecile on ignore. He's just trolling.

[Jacks3]

Let's post the numbers and let people reach their own conclusions.

Lebron's PER by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

18.3
25.7
28.1/23.2
24.5/23.9
29.1/24.3
31.7/37.4
30.5

What Jordan fans cleverly do is act as if Lebron did not come out of high school and that Lebron has had his best years. Jordan came out of perhaps the best college program in the country coached by Dean Smith and was 27, a player's physical peak, in the final year of the OP's comparison. Of course Jordan's career numbers are going to look better. Of course, you know that. Superficial analysis. :oldlol:

Jordan's PER by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

25.8/24.7
27.5/30.1
29.8/28.1
31.7/28.4
31.1/29.9
31.2/31.6
31.6/32.0

Jordan's career high was 31.7. Lebron has already matched that. His best playoff run already>Jordan's in PER. 37.4 versus 32.0. He could reach the low 40's when he peaks. :eek:


Lebron's Win Shares by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

5.1
14.3
16.3/1.7
13.7/3.7
15.2/2.2
20.3/4.8
19.0 (pace over 82 games)


Jordan's Win Shares by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

14.0/0.7
6.8 (pace over 82 games)/0.5
16.9/0.4
21.2/2.1
19.8/4.0
19.0/4.0
20.3/4.8

Jordan's playoff best is 4.8. Lebron has already matched that. Jordan's regular season best is 21.2 and Lebron already has been close to that.

Regarding win shares, Jordan has the edge in regular season win shares but Lebron in playoff win shares. What is clear is the gap is not huge, even though Lebron came out of high school and has yet to reach his physical peak.
:applause:

[Duncan21formvp]

Let's post the numbers and let people reach their own conclusions.

Lebron's PER by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

18.3
25.7
28.1/23.2
24.5/23.9
29.1/24.3
31.7/37.4
30.5

What Jordan fans cleverly do is act as if Lebron did not come out of high school and that Lebron has had his best years. Jordan came out of perhaps the best college program in the country coached by Dean Smith and was 27, a player's physical peak, in the final year of the OP's comparison. Of course Jordan's career numbers are going to look better. Of course, you know that. Superficial analysis. :oldlol:

Jordan's PER by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

25.8/24.7
27.5/30.1
29.8/28.1
31.7/28.4
31.1/29.9
31.2/31.6
31.6/32.0

Jordan's career high was 31.7. Lebron has already matched that. His best playoff run already>Jordan's in PER. 37.4 versus 32.0. He could reach the low 40's when he peaks. :eek:


Lebron's Win Shares by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

5.1
14.3
16.3/1.7
13.7/3.7
15.2/2.2
20.3/4.8
19.0 (pace over 82 games)


Jordan's Win Shares by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

14.0/0.7
6.8 (pace over 82 games)/0.5
16.9/0.4
21.2/2.1
19.8/4.0
19.0/4.0
20.3/4.8

Jordan's playoff best is 4.8. Lebron has already matched that. Jordan's regular season best is 21.2 and Lebron already has been close to that.

Regarding win shares, Jordan has the edge in regular season win shares but Lebron in playoff win shares. What is clear is the gap is not huge, even though Lebron came out of high school and has yet to reach his physical peak.

Again you can't compare win shares and per season by season to another because it is based on the league in itself. The point is to compare how often they led the league in PER and/or Win Shares and what is their career average in them at any given point.

Example: MJ averaged 35/6/6 on 50% fg and 39% 3 pt in 1992 and had a PER of 27.2 in the playoffs and a win share of 4.1

While in 1998 he averaged 32/5/4 on 46% Fg and 30% pt and had a PER of 28.1 and win share of 4.8

Now does that look like it was based on the same players, league, etc?

How would his PER and Win Share be higher in 1998 than 1992 when his stats are worse?

[Jacks3]

Put that imbecile on ignore. He's just trolling.
Jordan stans getting defensive. They can't stand the facts. :oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

I think he could "rival" Jordan in '90 & '93 much like Sir Charles did. However not so much the two years in between. The playoffs would be the determining factor.

[catch24]

Lol @ a Lakers/Kobe fan being a stan. As I said, trolling.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes he was chosen and a big reason I remember is that Jordan said he wouldn't play if they didn't choose Pippen to go to the Olympics. He had the utmost respect for him.

When did he say that? That has nothing to do with him being selected 4th or 5th. They could have taken him 12th like Drexler.


Anyway, Im not sure why you keep bringing up Pippen in threads.

You compared him to Mo Williams.


Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

He never said that. He said Jordan helped him. Teammates help teammates all the time. Only Jordan zealots take that to mean Jordan "made" another player. What a joke. Did Moses Malone make Hakeem? Did Ewing make Yao and Dwight? Is Lindsay Hunter making Rose? And so on. The best evidence we have is Jordan himself. He can't even make an all-star let alone a top 20-25 all-time player in Charlotte and could not do it in Washington. If he could he would have! This is a guy who obsessed over winning at even Pac Man. Does he like being 0-7 as far as having a winning season as a GM? If he could "make" a HOFer in Washington and now Charlotte he would have already done it. He can't. He is human, as hard as this is for his fans to accept.

The amusing thing is Jordan doctrine acts as if coaches don't exist. Collins pushed Pippen and Grant hard. Jordan himself said he would not have become who he became without Kevin Loughery not to mention his praise of Dean Smith.


Well I asked this to many Cavs fans and they all said they would have been worse with Iverson even though he is better.

Even with prime Iverson?


This is so superficial and, frankly, braindead, that I don't know where to begin. You think he's going to get to the line 17.4 times per game (14.2 + 3.2) over the course of a season? You're looking at a very limited sample size rather than an entire season and extrapolating.

Again, these are ballpark numbers. You are dodging the fundamental point: if you swapped roles Lebron would score more than he does now although he would average less assists.


Call me when Lebron averages 35 ppg on 23 FGA over the course of a season.

When did Jordan do this? When he averaged 35 ppg he averaged 24.4 FGA (led the league). When he averaged 37 ppg he shot the ball 28 times a game (led the league).

FGA per season

Lebron: 19, 21, 23, 21, 22, 20, 20
Jordan: 20, 18, 28, 24, 22, 24, 22

Lebron may never score 35 ppg due to pace is he stays in Cleveland.


Don't even see how this is debatable (not saying MJ is light years away). Jordan was the better shooter. His FT %, mid range game, and 3PT shooting, when shooting the same number of 3PT attempts

Why the qualifier? If he was the better shooter he would be taking as many 3's, no? He sure did take a lot later in his career...


He was more clutch (going by numerous quotes from the media, coaches, and his peers -- using the criteria of 82games

35/9/7 in the playoffs and 39/8/8 in the conference finals. That isn't clutch? That rivals Jordan's best runs, at least statistically, no?

What are the 82games stats for MJ? I have been curious about that for a while.


Again you can't compare win shares and per season by season to another because it is based on the league in itself. The point is to compare how often they led the league in PER and/or Win Shares and what is their career average in them at any given point.

I thought you cared about the strength of the league? You could lead a lot in a weaker league. If you care about league strength then you have to look at their win shares and not how often they led the league. Win shares is a joke btw. Taj Gibson>Derrick Rose according to that. :roll:

[Jacks3]

How am I trolling? Everything I said is 100% true. :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

Let's post the numbers and let people reach their own conclusions.

Lebron's PER by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

18.3
25.7
28.1/23.2
24.5/23.9
29.1/24.3
31.7/37.4
30.5

What Jordan fans cleverly do is act as if Lebron did not come out of high school and that Lebron has had his best years. Jordan came out of perhaps the best college program in the country coached by Dean Smith and was 27, a player's physical peak, in the final year of the OP's comparison. Of course Jordan's career numbers are going to look better. Of course, you know that.




Superficial analysis. :oldlol:






Jordan's PER by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

25.8/24.7
27.5/30.1
29.8/28.1
31.7/28.4
31.1/29.9
31.2/31.6
31.6/32.0

Jordan's career high was 31.7. Lebron has already matched that. His best playoff run already>Jordan's in PER. 37.4 versus 32.0. He could reach the low 40's when he peaks. :eek:


Lebron's Win Shares by year (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

5.1
14.3
16.3/1.7
13.7/3.7
15.2/2.2
20.3/4.8
19.0 (pace over 82 games)


Jordan's Win Shares by year up to 91' (regular season listed first, playoffs second)

14.0/0.7
6.8 (pace over 82 games)/0.5
16.9/0.4
21.2/2.1
19.8/4.0
19.0/4.0
20.3/4.8

Jordan's playoff best is 4.8. Lebron has already matched that. Jordan's regular season best is 21.2 and Lebron already has been close to that.

Regarding win shares, Jordan has the edge in regular season win shares but Lebron in playoff win shares. What is clear is the gap is not huge, even though Lebron came out of high school and has yet to reach his physical peak.





HEY I THOUGHT STATS DIDN'T MATTER.. ... Stats do matter.. And MJ is on top of almost every category..

[Abraham Lincoln]

The more you have the ball in your hands, especially if you're playing P&R basketball as opposed to a structured system like the triangle, the more opportunities you have to make stat-generating plays.

This is a good point. And it's not just LeBron either. Comparing irrelevant & misleading out of context statistics is what is completely wrong with player vs. player debates nowadays.

[catch24]

Why the qualifier? If he was the better shooter he would be taking as many 3's, no? He sure did take a lot later in his career...

Because it's needed. His 3PT shooting is pretty underrated given the attempts. During his early years prior to the championship(s), he rarely took 3PT shots (hell, during the 1st 3-peat he said himself, that it deters from his midrange/slashing game). He shot MORE "later in his career" due to not having the same explosiveness.

[catch24]

35/9/7 in the playoffs and 39/8/8 in the conference finals. That isn't clutch? That rivals Jordan's best runs, at least statistically, no?

What are the 82games stats for MJ? I have been curious about that for a while.

Did I say that LeBron wasn't? What I'm saying, is, Jordan was more clutch. What does production have to do with being clutch? Anyone who saw the Orlando series knows LeBron was a turnover machine/faded many possessions during the last minutes of the game due to having the ball in his hands SO MUCH throughout the contest. Unfortunately, we don't have MJ's clutch stats on 82 games. What you can do, is look through the videos I stated in my previous post, come back and tell me if that doesn't warrant Jordan being 'more clutch'.

[Roundball_Rock]

HEY I THOUGHT STATS DIDN'T MATTER.. ... Stats do matter.. And MJ is on top of almost every category..

?

Yeah, he is ahead now in career terms. He probably always will be since Lebron came out of high school and Lebron presumably won't retire twice for five seasons. What is up in the air is who will have the higher peak stats. Lebron has already come close to him and he isn't even at his peak yet. He is not there physically and he is not there in his game. He has no post up game to speak of right now and his jumper is not great. This comparison will be a lot better in 2-3 years.


His 3PT shooting is pretty underrated given the attempts.

17%
17%
18%
13%
28%
38%
31%

Compared to:

29%
35%
34%
32%
32%
34%
36%

Jordan shot more because of this after 91':

27%
35%
50%
43%
37%
24%
19%
29%

He shot more because he could make them later in his career, especially during the shorter three point line seasons.

[Duncan21formvp]

Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams. He had over a 44.5 PER thru the first two rounds mainly because the other teams starters were just terrible. Case in point, Tayshaun Prince had a negative win shares amount and had a negative PER. PER is set at 15 for the average starter and for someone who starts to get a negative PER goes to show how bad they were. Thus Lebron was able to do what he does best and that is stat pad his numbers. That is why it hurt them later on.

http://www.posterized.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lebroncheckmystats.jpg

And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.

[madmax]

Did I say that LeBron wasn't? What I'm saying, is, Jordan was more clutch. What does production have to do with being clutch? Anyone who saw the Orlando series knows LeBron was a turnover machine/faded many possessions during the last minutes of the game due to having the ball in his hands SO MUCH throughout the contest. Unfortunately, we don't have MJ's clutch stats on 82 games. What you can do, is look through the videos I stated in my previous post, come back and tell me if that doesn't warrant Jordan being 'more clutch'.
Cavs loss to Orlando has NOTHING to do with Lebron or his supposed "choking":banghead: It was a an undersized team going against more physical and taller opponents - not having a legit post presence didn't help either...Lebron did what he could and still Cavs were maybe 2 plays away from the finals - that's how good a guy is:applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's not forget that Lebron plays well against Bad teams.


And he certainly padded his stats against Detroit and Atlanta.

:wtf:

39/8/8 in the conference finals against the best D in the league. :bowdown:

Every player tends to do better against weaker teams for obvious reasons. You make it sound as if Lebron wilted against tough competition when in reality he had an amazing series in the ECF.

[catch24]

?

Yeah, he is ahead now in career terms. He probably always will be since Lebron came out of high school and Lebron presumably won't retire twice for five seasons. What is up in the air is who will have the higher peak stats. Lebron has already come close to him and he isn't even at his peak yet. He is not there physically and he is not there in his game. He has no post up game to speak of right now and his jumper is not great. This comparison will be a lot better in 2-3 years.



17%
17%
18%
13%
28%
38%
31%

Compared to:

29%
35%
34%
32%
32%
34%
36%

Jordan shot more because of this after 91':

27%
35%
50%
43%
37%
24%
19%
29%

He shot more because he could make them later in his career, especially during the shorter three point line seasons.

Wrong yet again Roundball. I see you're still infatuated with fudging stats.

Jordans 3PT scoring:

Jordan from '85-89 took no more than 1 attempt, hovering around 20%

His attempts went up 2 (3 attempts per game), during the '89-90 season, and he shot 37%. That's higher than LeBron's currently, while he shoots 4 a game for 36%.

Jordan in '91: 1 attempt, back down to 31%
Jordan in '92: 1 attempt, back down to 27%
Jordan in '93: 3 attempts, back up to 35%
Jordan in '96: 3 attempts, up to 42%
Jordan in '97: 3 attempts, at 37%
Jordan in '98: 1 attempt, back down to 23%

Stop taking stats out of context. It smears your your credibility.

[catch24]

Cavs loss to Orlando has NOTHING to do with Lebron or his supposed "choking":banghead: It was a an undersized team going against more physical and taller opponents - not having a legit post presence didn't help either...Lebron did what he could and still Cavs were maybe 2 plays away from the finals - that's how good a guy is:applause:

Well he underperformed, to his standards, during the end of games (especially on the road) verse Orlando. That was LeBron ball all series long, anyone who watched the series knows this.

[madmax]

Well he underperformed, to his standards, during the end of games (especially on the road) verse Orlando. That was LeBron ball all series long, anyone who watched the series, knows this.
I watched the whole series and saw Lebron playing his skin out and dragging his undersized and choking teammates into two wins...I guess you can say it was "Lebron ball", but really that team didn't have any other option

[catch24]

I watched the whole series and saw Lebron playing his skin out and dragging his undersized and choking teammates into two wins...I guess you can say it was "Lebron ball", but really that team didn't have any other option


Delonte played decent, Mo was woefully terrible. I think it ultimately came down to defense. They couldn't stop Orlando's ball movement/3PT shots. Despite playing "LeBron ball", they could have won all 3 games at home (the first game in Cleveland, they pretty much choked away).

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan from '85-89 took no more than 1 attempt, hovering around 20%

His attempts went up 2 (3 attempts per game), during the '89-90 season, and he shot 37%.

Exactly. When he developed an ability to make them he took more. What are you having trouble with? He was a very intelligent player and is an intelligent person. Why would he take 4 three's a game at a 17% clip?

Here are the actual numbers. Three pointers taken by MJ per season and his percentage:

52 17%
18 (on pace for 82 over 82 games) 17%
66 18%
53 13%
98 28%
245 38%
93 31%
100 27%
230 35%
32 (154 over 82 games) 50%*
260 43%*
297 37%*
126 24%
53 (72 over 82 games) 19%
55 29%

There is an obvious trend. When he was shooting well he took more. When he shot poorly, he took less.

*Years with a shorter 3 point line


That's higher than LeBron's currently, while he shoots 4 a game for 36%.

Misleading. I posted his complete record. What you did was cherry pick Jordan's best early year and compared it to a random Lebron season. Up to this point Lebron is better career-wise and just as Jordan and many others improved their shot as their careers progressed Lebron likely will too.

[Anaximandro1]

Jordan is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLCruNTLdnA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199106050CHI.html

[catch24]

Exactly. When he developed an ability to make them he took more. What are you having trouble with? He was a very intelligent player and is an intelligent person. Why would he take 4 three's a game at a 17% clip?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you cited what he did after after '91. Jordan COULD make the long ball given the necessary attempts per game. During '91-93 (not too sure), there's a quote on YouTube where he states he disliked taking so many 3's because it took away from his strengths (midrange/slashing and ability to create contact, thus shooting FT's). Point is, he shot 37% from the 3 during the '89-90 season when he wasn't even KNOWN for that part of his game. Why? Well, his attempts rose. The misconception that he "took more during his later years" because he worked on them, "polished that skill" is laughable. Take a look at his attempts. They're not fudged, like, well...NVM.

No, Roundball. Here are the numbers, actually:



Jordans 3PT scoring:

Jordan from '85-89 took no more than 1 attempt, hovering around 20%

His attempts went up 2 (3 attempts per game), during the '89-90 season, and he shot 37%. That's higher than LeBron's currently, while he shoots 4 a game for 36%.

Jordan in '91: 1 attempt, back down to 31%
Jordan in '92: 1 attempt, back down to 27%
Jordan in '93: 3 attempts, back up to 35%
Jordan in '96: 3 attempts, up to 42%
Jordan in '97: 3 attempts, at 37%
Jordan in '98: 1 attempt, back down to 23%

[catch24]

Misleading. I posted his complete record. What you did was cherry pick Jordan's best early year and compared it to a random Lebron season. Up to this point Lebron is better career-wise and just as Jordan and many others improved their shot as their careers progressed Lebron likely will too.

Wrong. What I did was, took attempts into context and compared his 3PT shooting to LeBrons. In 1991 he took less, therefor the comparison is pretty much useless, unless you factor what games he took 3-4 3PA during that year.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLCruNTLdnA

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...106050CHI.html

It is January 3, not June 5. Why are MJ fans invoking what Jordan did in the playoffs when Lebron is not even at the halfway point in his season?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you cited what he did after after '91.

I posted his complete record. There is an obvious trend.


Jordan COULD make the long ball

He could but didn't? He was shooting 17% for fun?


During '91-93 (not too sure), there's a quote on YouTube where he states he disliked taking so many 3's because it took away from his strengths (midrange/slashing and ability to create contact, thus shooting FT's).


Point is, he shot 37% from the 3 during the '89-90 season when he wasn't even KNOWN for that part of his game.


53 13%
98 28%
245 38%
93 31%
100 27%
230 35%

Notice a trend? He better he shoots, the more 3's he takes. He shot 38% in 90'. Why not in 89' or 91'? Was his slashing and midrange ability AWOL in 90'?


What I did was, took attempts into context and compared his 3PT shooting to LeBrons. In 1991 he took less, therefor the comparison is pretty much useless, unless you factor what games he took 3-4 3PA during that year.

He is a better shooter yet needs to take 3-4 to make them, which he mysteriously decided to do in 1990 but not the year before or the year after? How about we do the same for Lebron? Let's cherry pick games where he took 7+ last year.

57%
43%
43%
29%
43%
29%
57%
29%
86%
57%
29%
38%
38%
25%
38%
50%
63%
33%
73%
36%

That comes out to an average of 45%.

[catch24]

The 3PT line was shortened during '94-95 season. Again, your opinions are moot.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 3PT line was shortened during '94-95 season. Again, your opinions are moot.

Yeah--and 96' and 97'. It is no coincidence his percentage plummeted after that--as did his number of attempts. Why shoot them if you can't make them? That would be stupid.

[catch24]

I posted his complete record. There is an obvious trend.


No obvious trend, unless you're talking about his attempts from 3. The more they arose, the higher his % was. This is pretty simple, why are you having trouble?


He could but didn't? He was shooting 17% for fun?

No, what he was doing was utilizing his athletic peak, taking it to the basket. Why shoot the 3, when you jump higher and are pretty much faster than most perimeter guards?

There's no trend. The more attempts he took, the more he made. Why are you still having trouble? The facts are in front of you. Even if the association shortened the 3PT line, it was during the 95 season, which is completely and utterly moot. He had seasons of mid 30 percentile, comparable to LeBron/Kobe, prior:


His attempts went up 2 (3 attempts per game), during the '89-90 season, and he shot 37%. That's higher than LeBron's currently, while he shoots 4 a game for 36%.

Jordan in '91: 1 attempt, back down to 31%
Jordan in '92: 1 attempt, back down to 27%
Jordan in '93: 3 attempts, back up to 35%
Jordan in '96: 3 attempts, up to 42%
Jordan in '97: 3 attempts, at 37%
Jordan in '98: 1 attempt, back down to 23%





He is a better shooter yet needs to take 3-4? How about we do the same for Lebron? Let's cherry pick games where he took 6+.

LeBron has always shot 3-4 3PA. While hovering around 30%. Jordan and Kobe are better shooters than LeBron. Everyone knows this.

[catch24]

Yeah--and 96' and 97'. It is no coincidence his percentage plummeted after that--as did his number of attempts. Why shoot them if you can't make them? That would be stupid.

They weren't shortened in 90 and 93, though, were they? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

There's no trend. The more attempts he took, the more he made.

Of course. The more you make, the more you will take. Look at Lebron. He was 34% last season but 45% when he shot 7+. If it was the attempts that led to higher accuracy Lebron would take 7+ every game. You have it backwards. Accuracy leads to more attempts.

Let's use another example. Vince Carter shot 39% on 5 three point attempts per game last year. Here is what he did when he took 7+

50%
50%
22%
56%
33%
56%
56%
44%
67%
25%
63%
50%
63%
14%
29%
43%
71%
43%
43%
43%

The average of those numbers is 46%. His season average was 39%. Take away these 20 games and he was probably at 34-35% in the other games. If he can shoot 46% simply by taking that many why doesn't he take 7+ every game? Why does he average 5?


Even if the association shortened the 3PT line, it was during the 95 season

And 96' and 97'. I think this is where your confusion comes from. You think MJ actually was good enough to shoot 43% on three's from the regular line.


LeBron has always shot 3-4 3PA. While hovering around 30%.

What is your point? You cherry pick when Jordan took more shots yet refuse to do the same regarding Lebron. Either way you slice it Lebron>Jordan on 3's after 7 seasons. Overall he is ahead and when you cherry pick he is ahead. This is just turned 25 Lebron. How will 30 year old Lebron shoot on 3's?


They weren't shortened in 90 and 93, though, were they?

Why did he take more in those years? He lost his athleticism in 90', had it in 89' though, regained it in 91' and 92' but lost it again in 93'? Coincidence? Or did he take more because he was making more those years?

[catch24]

Of course. The more you make, the more you will take. Look at Lebron. He was 34% last season but 45% when he shot 7+. If it was the attempts that led to higher accuracy Lebron would take 7+ every game. You have it backwards. Accuracy leads to more attempts.

First of all, LeBron never took 7 per game, unless you're talking about a stretch of games....Still fail to see how that's relevant. We are talking about an 82 game season. I don't have anything backwards, kiddo. The more you take, generally, you'll be more accurate. Where have I said otherwise? :oldlol:


Let's use another example. Vince Carter shot 39% on 5 three point attempts per game last year. Here is what he did when he took 7+

50%
50%
22%
56%
33%
56%
56%
44%
67%
25%
63%
50%
63%
14%
29%
43%
71%
43%
43%
43%

The average of those numbers is 46%. His season average was 39%. Take away these 20 games and he was probably at 34-35% in the other games. If he can shoot 46% simply by taking that many why doesn't he take 7+ every game? Why does he average 5?

What is your point? He had to take 7 3PA per game, when at best, he's a mediocre 3PT shooter to begin with. An 82 game season, isn't a stretch, it's, well a marathon. The one season Vince took no more than 1 three a game (rookie year), he was at 28%. Take his attempts with context. An NBA season, will more than likely show your true efficient production barring injury.



And 96' and 97'. I think this is where your confusion comes from. You think MJ actually was good enough to shoot 43% on three's from the regular line.

I didn't say otherwise. He still shot in the mid 30's prior to the 3PT line being shortened. 43% is a stretch, but to say he wouldn't consistently be within 35-39% at 3-4 attempts is ridiculous.


What is your point? You cherry pick when Jordan took more shots yet refuse to do the same regarding Lebron. Either way you slice it Lebron>Jordan on 3's after 7 seasons. Overall he is ahead and when you cherry pick he is ahead. This is just turned 25 Lebron. How will 30 year old Lebron shoot on 3's?

:oldlol: at me cherrypicking. The numbers I posted are 100 percent indicative to his play. The more attempts he took, the higher he shot. LeBron is not the SHOOTER Jordan, Kobe or Vince were/are. LeBron is not the better 3PT shooter. You're still failing at taking his attempts into consideration. Let's see what LeBron's 3P % would be shooting 1-2 attempts per game. In fact, if he could only shoot one 3 a game, lets see how many times he'd make that very first 3.


His attempts went up 2 (3 attempts per game), during the '89-90 season, and he shot 37%. That's higher than LeBron's currently, while he shoots 4 a game for 36%.

Jordan in '91: 1 attempt, back down to 31%
Jordan in '92: 1 attempt, back down to 27%
Jordan in '93: 3 attempts, back up to 35%
Jordan in '96: 3 attempts, up to 42%
Jordan in '97: 3 attempts, at 37%
Jordan in '98: 1 attempt, back down to 23%

No skewing. 100% factual.

[Roundball_Rock]

First of all, LeBron never took 7 per game, unless you're talking about a stretch of games..

He did that 20 times last year. That is a solid sample size.


The more you take, generally, you'll be more accurate.

The question is why? Is the accuracy a result of more attempts or are the attempts a result of better accuracy?


An NBA season, will more than likely show your true efficient production barring injury.

Unfortunately you can't do that with most players because most players are consistent in that area. Carter has been between 4-5 attempts since 2004-05.


I didn't say otherwise. He still shot in the mid 30's prior to the 3PT line being shortened.

Yeah--twice in 11 seasons...


but to say he wouldn't consistently be within 35-39% at 3-4 attempts is ridiculous.

Why? If he could make them he would take them as his record shows. Your theory is based on athleticism. Did he have it in 89', lose it in 90', regain it for two years and then lose it again in 93'? That is a ridiculous theory.


The more attempts he took, the higher he shot.

Of course. You can say that about anyone regarding 3's. If you are making them you will take more. That is common sense. When you play basketball do you take more 3's when you miss your first 3? Do you play in a fantasy land with a quota for three point attempts? Most people would chill out if they started a game cold.


LeBron is not the better 3PT shooter.

It depends on what you are talking about. If you are talking about Jordan from ages 21-39 then he is better but if the comparison is after 7 seasons (the original question) or at age 25 numbers don't lie here.


Let's see what LeBron's 3P % would be shooting 1-2 attempts per game. In fact, if he could only shoot one 3 a game, lets see how many times he'd make that very first 3.

It is horrible when he takes 3 or less. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2009/ Three is your magic number. Here is what he did when he had 3 attempts in 2009:

0%
0%
67%
0%
0%
0%
0%
0%
67%

That comes out to 15%. It is obvious what happened. When he started off cold he took less. Hence him taking heat checks every game. When you are cold why take a lot? It is idiotic. Your theory is a player can make more simply by taking more. If he could shoot 45% taking 7+ he would be doing it every game. Why doesn't he? Carter 46% when taking 7+. Are they too dumb to realize what you have realized? The more you take, the more accurate you shoot.

[Fatal9]

wow at loki acting like this isn't close. dude, you were the same guy who made a "Jordan vs. Kobe" thread and used nothing but PER, winshares, eff and other awful statistics. Now when you look at Lebron and Jordan in the same light...it's not close? Lebron had the highest single season PER ever last year. He had a playoff PER that Jordan has never even approached. What's the deal? I thought PER, EFF, winshares were all we needed to compare players? :confusedshrug:

I think it's actually really close. I don't think Jordan would lead that Cavs team to 66 wins (we've seen what he can do with that type of talent around him) so take that for whatever it's worth. Give Lebron a team that is capable of winning nearly 60 games without him, and it's scary to think how many championships he will tally.

[Glide2keva]

24 finals games and 6 titles won is way better than 0 finals games won and 0 titles to speak of, so yeah it's not close at all.

[Fatal9]

24 finals games and 6 titles won is way better than 0 finals games won and 0 titles to speak of, so yeah it's not close at all.
How many did Jordan win when he was 25? How did Jordan fare when he was surrounded by a cast as talented as the Cavs were last year? :confusedshrug:

Why are people making this a career/legacy question?

[lilgodfather1]

wow at loki acting like this isn't close. dude, you were the same guy who made a "Jordan vs. Kobe" thread and used nothing but PER, winshares, eff and other awful statistics. Now when you look at Lebron and Jordan in the same light...it's not close? Lebron had the highest single season PER ever last year. He had a playoff PER that Jordan has never even approached. What's the deal? I thought PER, EFF, winshares were all we needed to compare players? :confusedshrug:

I think it's actually really close. I don't think Jordan would lead that Cavs team to 66 wins (we've seen what he can do with that type of talent around him) so take that for whatever it's worth. Give Lebron a team that is capable of winning nearly 60 games without him, and it's scary to think how many championships he will tally.
There probobally isn't a player in history that could lead that Cavs team to 66 wins other than LeBron. Certainly not MJ, he would not have fit in as well as LeBron because the team wasn't built around him.

To the retards saying this isn't close WTF are you smoking? You must have some good bud, maybe heroin? I dunno but this comparisson is actually quite a good one. Raw stats are fairly even, metric stats are to.

[lilgodfather1]

How many did Jordan win when he was 25? How did Jordan fare when he was surrounded by a cast as talented as the Cavs were last year? :confusedshrug:

Why are people making this a career/legacy question?
Because they have to think of different ways to solidify and reinforce their opinions of Jordan because the player Jordan fortold of is already here and they are scared of Jordans legacy being lessend.

[madmax]

Because they have to think of different ways to solidify and reinforce their opinions of Jordan because the player Jordan fortold of is already here and they are scared of Jordans legacy being lessend.

I've seen enough of Jordan and Lebron to make a substantial claim about these two players and let me tell you - if I needed to build a team from the scratch, I'd pick Lebron easily...you would ask why? I'd tell you - Jordan may be a better, more polished and fancy offensive player, but in no way he affected games the way Lebron does with his all arround play. From the moment I saw Bron's first game against Kings back in 2003, I knew this kid is something I've never seen before...

[catch24]

He did that 20 times last year. That is a solid sample size.

Which is irrelevant. Again, the NBA season is 82 games. No one determines just how good of a shooter you are in 10 games. Come on, use some perspective.


The question is why? Is the accuracy a result of more attempts or are the attempts a result of better accuracy?

I thought this was common knowledge? :confusedshrug: The more opportunities you have to shoot, the more likely you're going to have a shot go in.


Unfortunately you can't do that with most players because most players are consistent in that area. Carter has been between 4-5 attempts since 2004-05.

Actually, you can. The relevant perimeter players today (Wade, LeBron and Kobe) have all been near healthy (able to lase up and give it their all generally) going on 2 years now. 4-5 attempts, yet he's still a mediocre 3PT shooter at best -- shooting 31% currently at 5 attempts. Picture what his 3PT percentage would be had he been taking only 1 attempt?


Yeah--twice in 11 seasons...



Why? If he could make them he would take them as his record shows. Your theory is based on athleticism. Did he have it in 89', lose it in 90', regain it for two years and then lose it again in 93'? That is a ridiculous theory.

Twice in 11 seasons, though look at his attempts:

Jordan in '90: 3 attempts - 37%
Jordan in '91: 1 attempt - 31%
Jordan in '92: 1 attempt - 27%
Jordan in '93: 3 attempts - 35%

3PT line being shortened:
Jordan in '96: 3 attempts - 42%
Jordan in '97: 3 attempts - 37%
Jordan in '98: 1 attempt - 23%

My 'theory' isn't just based on "athleticism", rather factual shot selection and factual evidence. You can look for the documentations yourself, he was torn between shooting 3's. If he took 3-4 attempts, he was another VC, LeBron, Kobe: Taking many attempts just to be a DECENT 3PT shooter. Again, use some perspective.



Of course. You can say that about anyone regarding 3's. If you are making them you will take more. That is common sense. When you play basketball do you take more 3's when you miss your first 3? Do you play in a fantasy land with a quota for three point attempts? Most people would chill out if they started a game cold.

You're making my point. :oldlol: If LeBron, or Kobe for that matter, only had the opportunity to take two 3PA per game, what do you think their percentage would be? Not very high, huh? It's all about attempts, same with 2PT field goals. I'm glad we agree on something.


It depends on what you are talking about. If you are talking about Jordan from ages 21-39 then he is better but if the comparison is after 7 seasons (the original question) or at age 25 numbers don't lie here.

Jordan from 21-39 is just as good, if not better than LeBron from 3. How can the better shooter, overall, be worse than a decent shooter at best? LeBron has taken 4 attempts -- so far his career average. Jordan? 1.7. We've already seen what MJ's % from 3 would be had he taken as many as LeBron. Again, your logic and opinions are enormously flawed.


It is horrible when he takes 3 or less. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/gamelog/2009/ Three is your magic number. Here is what he did when he had 3 attempts in 2009:

Exactly. It is horrible. So, how can he be the better 3PT shooter? A handful of Games are not the exact best way to determine someone's shooting. 82 games (a full season is -- based on attempts).

The volume 3PT shooters who pad their stats (take bunches of 3's ), generally miss their first attempt. I've seen Kobe miss his first two-three, from 3, but does that deter him? Again, evaluate an individuals attempts first, then, and only then can you determine if he's a great OR better shooter from 3.

[catch24]

wow at loki acting like this isn't close. dude, you were the same guy who made a "Jordan vs. Kobe" thread and used nothing but PER, winshares, eff and other awful statistics. Now when you look at Lebron and Jordan in the same light...it's not close? Lebron had the highest single season PER ever last year. He had a playoff PER that Jordan has never even approached. What's the deal? I thought PER, EFF, winshares were all we needed to compare players? :confusedshrug:

I think it's actually really close. I don't think Jordan would lead that Cavs team to 66 wins (we've seen what he can do with that type of talent around him) so take that for whatever it's worth. Give Lebron a team that is capable of winning nearly 60 games without him, and it's scary to think how many championships he will tally.

I could of sworn last June you were talking about LeBron's short comings at the end of games versus Orlando. Oh, how the tables turn when it pertains to an individuals agenda.

[Duncan21formvp]

How many did Jordan win when he was 25? How did Jordan fare when he was surrounded by a cast as talented as the Cavs were last year? :confusedshrug:

Why are people making this a career/legacy question?

He won titles. He won 2 titles with no allstar. Lebron had an allstar and didnt' win and lost with HCA.

[Glide2keva]

I've seen enough of Jordan and Lebron to make a substantial claim about these two players and let me tell you - if I needed to build a team from the scratch, I'd pick Lebron easily...you would ask why? I'd tell you - Jordan may be a better, more polished and fancy offensive player, but in no way he affected games the way Lebron does with his all arround play. From the moment I saw Bron's first game against Kings back in 2003, I knew this kid is something I've never seen before...
You're kidding right?

You're saying Jordan didn't affect games? Wow, now I've heard it all.

[catch24]

You're kidding right?

You're saying Jordan didn't affect games? Wow, now I've heard it all.

I think he's saying in contrast to LeBron. Even so, he's 100% incorrect.

[madmax]

You're kidding right?

You're saying Jordan didn't affect games? Wow, now I've heard it all.

nope, I'm dead serious...Lebron is much easier to build arround and he involves his teammates better as well. There is no way last year's Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan, yet Lebron was able to achieve that:bowdown:

[Leviathon1121]

I've seen enough of Jordan and Lebron to make a substantial claim about these two players and let me tell you - if I needed to build a team from the scratch, I'd pick Lebron easily...you would ask why? I'd tell you - Jordan may be a better, more polished and fancy offensive player, but in no way he affected games the way Lebron does with his all arround play. From the moment I saw Bron's first game against Kings back in 2003, I knew this kid is something I've never seen before...

What a joke of a post, I feel so sorry for these kids who say they saw MJ play so we might take their opinions seriously.

Honestly how can you even type this? LeBron is nowhere near the force on defense that Jordan was. So there is half of a basketball game that Jordan effects much more then LeBron. And while LeBron's offensive game is much closer, it still is not as good. Yet somehow, Lebron affects those games more...

[Leviathon1121]

nope, I'm dead serious...Lebron is much easier to build arround and he involves his teammates better as well. There is no way last year's Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan, yet Lebron was able to achieve that:bowdown:


Well, who can possibly argue with undisputed facts like this? I mean look at the little purple guy bowing down, never have I seen such a convincing argument.

[Alan]

To catch24

Take a look at Nowitzki's 3pt attempts and %.

99-00 37,9% 306att
00-01 38,7% 390att
01-02 39,7% 350att
02-03 37,9% 390att
03-04 34,1% 290att
04-05 39,9% 228att
05-06 40,6% 271att
06-07 41,6% 173att
07-08 35,9% 220att
08-09 35,9% 170att

Now why doesn't him shooting more 3's per game equal better shooting %? Is this some logic that only applies to Jordan or are you just not making sense.

[catch24]

To catch24

Take a look at Nowitzki's 3pt attempts and %.

99-00 37,9% 306att
00-01 38,7% 390att
01-02 39,7% 350att
02-03 37,9% 390att
03-04 34,1% 290att
04-05 39,9% 228att
05-06 40,6% 271att
06-07 41,6% 173att
07-08 35,9% 220att
08-09 35,9% 170att

Now why doesn't him shooting more 3's per game equal better shooting %? Is this some logic that only applies to Jordan or are you just not making sense.

Yes, because we all know Jordan is the better shooter (from 3 for that matter) than Nowitzki. :oldlol: Are you Roundball's clone by any chance?

[Alan]

Yes, because we all know Jordan is the better shooter (from 3 for that matter) than Nowitzki. :oldlol: Are you Roundball's clone by any chance?
Nope.

So your logic only applies to bad/avarage shooters?

[Glide2keva]

What a joke of a post, I feel so sorry for these kids who say they saw MJ play so we might take their opinions seriously.

Honestly how can you even type this? LeBron is nowhere near the force on defense that Jordan was. So there is half of a basketball game that Jordan effects much more then LeBron. And while LeBron's offensive game is much closer, it still is not as good. Yet somehow, Lebron affects those games more.
I'm saying. Dude couldn't've seen Jordan play and still type something like that.

No one wanted to guard MJ because he was too fast and his mid-range game was deadly. Never-mind the fact that his drives to the hole were nearly unstoppable with his wide array of power dunks and finesse moves under the basket and the occasional lucky throw up shot that just always seemed to fall.

What does lebron do around the basket that makes him better than Jordan?

Nothing.

What he does is, dribble, dribble, dribble, drive to the hole, jump into a guy and wait for the bail out whistle while not even attempting a shot and then complains when he doesn't get the call.

Jordan by comparison, would drive to the hole, jump, show the ball, wait for the block attempt, and either shoot it or absorb the contact and flip a shot up, or scoop it for the up and under.

The difference is MJ would drive trying to score, whereas lebron drives for the whistle.

In the open court Jordan would unload a wide variety of dunks whereas lebron is still doing the same Tomahawk dunk he's been doing since he came in the league.

The only difference is MJ didn't have The TNT guy shooting his wad after every one of them.

lebron is putting up great numbers and they aren't to be ignored, but to put him on MJ's level when firstly whenever MJ made the Finals, he won is completely blasphemous.

[catch24]

Nope.

So your logic only applies to bad/avarage shooters?

My logic applies to mediocre 3PT shooters at BEST. Nothing more nothing less, given the proper attempts. Reggie Miller, Steve Nash, Dirk, Glen Rice, Ray Allen Larry Bird, don't apply for the most part.

[madmax]

I'm saying. Dude couldn't've seen Jordan play and still type something like that.

No one wanted to guard MJ because he was too fast and his mid-range game was deadly. Never-mind the fact that his drives to the hole were nearly unstoppable with his wide array of power dunks and finesse moves under the basket and the occasional lucky throw up shot that just always seemed to fall.

What does lebron do around the basket that makes him better than Jordan?

Nothing.

What he does is, dribble, dribble, dribble, drive to the hole, jump into a guy and wait for the bail out whistle while not even attempting a shot and then complains when he doesn't get the call.

Jordan by comparison, would drive to the hole, jump, show the ball, wait for the block attempt, and either shoot it or absorb the contact and flip a shot up, or scoop it for the up and under.

The difference is MJ would drive trying to score, whereas lebron drives for the whistle.

In the open court Jordan would unload a wide variety of dunks whereas lebron is still doing the same Tomahawk dunk he's been doing since he came in the league.

The only difference is MJ didn't have The TNT guy shooting his wad after every one of them.

lebron is putting up great numbers and they aren't to be ignored, but to put him on MJ's level when firstly whenever MJ made the Finals, he won is completely blasphemous.

so you are basically saying that Lebron has no finishing ability whatsoever and only relies on bailout calls from the refs? Or maybe mighty Jordan was NEVER ever bailed out in his life by the refs?:lol

[cotdt]

Lebron is a much better teammate than Jordan. Other than Pippen, Jordan's other teammates were downright afraid of him. He punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice and called his teammates degrading names when they didn't perform to his standards. Jordan got into numerous fights with teammates during practice, because to him winning practice games was more important than even real games. On the Wizards, he broke Kwame Brown's spirit with his constant verbal abuse calling him a worthless player, and Brown ended up being traded.

When Phil Jackson invited Jordan to play with Kobe on the Lakers, Jordan refused because he wouldn't be the first option. Whereas Lebron and Kobe are fine being the 2nd option. Lebron and Kobe are both better teammates than Jordan.

[Alhazred]

When Phil Jackson invited Jordan to play with Kobe on the Lakers, Jordan refused because he wouldn't be the first option. Whereas Lebron and Kobe are fine being the 2nd option. Lebron and Kobe are both better teammates than Jordan.

Wasn't Jordan 36 by the time Phil joined the Lakers? Also, I don't remember Phil ever calling Jordan "uncoachable" at any point, either.

Kobe was never fine with being the second option, he butted heads with Shaq over it all the time. As for Lebron, who has he ever been the second option to?

EDIT: Lol, just found this old thread about Kobe dissing Bynum on video.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46011

[Indian guy]

What does lebron do around the basket that makes him better than Jordan?

LeBron's efficiency in the paint is unrivaled by a perimeter player in league history. Look up the numbers. Don't confuse lack of versatility around the basket with lack of effectiveness. LeBron's 6'8, 265 pounds. He doesn't need to get cute around the rim.

[Glide2keva]

Comprehension is lacking I see.

Read what I posted, I am talking about the difference in the mentality when it comes to driving to the hole. I never said lebron couldn't finish.

I said he has a different goal.

And yes MJ was bailed out by the refs on numerous occasions, but the fact of the matter is MJ would drive trying to score, whistle or no whistle whereas lebron is always crying and *****ing to the refs when they don't blow the whistle.

You put the ball in lebron's hands at the top of the key and watch what he does. Any objective basketball fan can see that, it was on full display in the playoffs last year.

Hell, even this year. Look at the loss the suffered to the Bulls. lebron had the ball in his hands for the final shot of the game and potentia game winner. What did he do?

dribble, dribble, dribble, drive to the left with Loul Deng on him, the whole time lebron is leaning into him trying to initiate contact, yet getting further away from the rim on the left side, there was contact but only the contact initiated by lebron and he didn't even attempt a shot. When the buzzer sounded and the whistle didn't blow, what did he do?

Cried to the refs.

MJ would've drove trying to score. Damn the refs.

That's the difference

[Glide2keva]

All of this is true, but he still doesn't do anything that MJ couldn't do and Mj could do more around the basket than lebron can.

[Indian guy]

Mj could do more around the basket than lebron can.

Except convert his close-in shots at a higher percentage.

[madmax]

Except convert his close-in shots at a higher percentage.

:roll: :roll: :rockon: :rockon: Dude is owned

[Leviathon1121]

Except convert his close-in shots at a higher percentage.

Where are the stats for this, I was seriously unaware a website kept track of something like this.

[Bigsmoke]

Once Lebron wins 6 rings more people will this this comparison is atleast debatable

[Glide2keva]

Except convert his close-in shots at a higher percentage.
Not even slightly owned.

I stand by what I say and lebrick is nowhere on MJ's level.

[catch24]

Where are the stats for this, I was seriously unaware a website kept track of something like this.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Indian guy]

Where are the stats for this, I was seriously unaware a website kept track of something like this.

82games.com. LeBron converted 70%+ of his shots in the paint last season. Good for 3rd best in the league. No such numbers exist for MJ, but if we take in the fact that he was a FAR, FAR better jump shooter than LeBron, it doesn't take much to assume(by looking at his overall FG%) that his conversion % in the paint was significantly less than LeBron's(who's been a below average jump shooter every season of his career barring the current one). The fact that LeBron continues to shoot 48-50% every year despite being so poor from the perimeter is a testament to his paint dominance.

[juju151111]

nope, I'm dead serious...Lebron is much easier to build arround and he involves his teammates better as well. There is no way last year's Cavs team is winning 66 games with Jordan, yet Lebron was able to achieve that:bowdown:
:lol

[Roundball_Rock]

To catch24

Take a look at Nowitzki's 3pt attempts and %.

99-00 37,9% 306att
00-01 38,7% 390att
01-02 39,7% 350att
02-03 37,9% 390att
03-04 34,1% 290att
04-05 39,9% 228att
05-06 40,6% 271att
06-07 41,6% 173att
07-08 35,9% 220att
08-09 35,9% 170att

Now why doesn't him shooting more 3's per game equal better shooting %? Is this some logic that only applies to Jordan or are you just not making sense.

It is flat out idiocy. The more you shoot, the more accurate you become from 3 point range. Using that "logic" every decent shooter would jack up 10 3's a game. :roll:


My logic applies to mediocre 3PT shooters at BEST. Nothing more nothing less, given the proper attempts. Reggie Miller, Steve Nash, Dirk, Glen Rice, Ray Allen Larry Bird, don't apply for the most part.

Name some. You still haven't explained why he mysteriously saw his percentage increase in 90' and 93'. Did he lose his athleticism?


When Phil Jackson invited Jordan to play with Kobe on the Lakers, Jordan refused because he wouldn't be the first option.

Really? I don't remember this.


I think it's actually really close. I don't think Jordan would lead that Cavs team to 66 wins (we've seen what he can do with that type of talent around him) so take that for whatever it's worth. Give Lebron a team that is capable of winning nearly 60 games without him, and it's scary to think how many championships he will tally.

Even with inferior talent Lebron has achieved more than Jordan after 7 seasons. Also keep in mind Lebron came out of high school; Jordan out of Dean Smith's basketball university.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Name some. You still haven't explained why he mysteriously saw his percentage increase in 90' and 93'. Did he lose his athleticism?
Why did it increase in your opinion?

[juju151111]

i will bump this thread come playoff time. Boomark for ownage later on.

[Duncan21formvp]

Lebron didn't even make the playoffs (2005) when he had another allstar on his team in Big Z and Big Z made the allstar team before Lebron ever stepped foot in Cleveland in 2003.

Not to mention Lebron ended up with a bronze medal in 2006 after averaging 31/7/7 in the NBA. Goes to show how much easier it is for wings to score now.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Even with inferior talent Lebron has achieved more than Jordan after 7 seasons. Also keep in mind Lebron came out of high school; Jordan out of Dean Smith's basketball university.

In a weaker era of basketball.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ok, ok, Jordan could have been the GOAT three point shooter if he felt like taking 6 three's a game. :oldlol: There is a thing called variance. In what world do players shoot the same percentage every year? Pick a random player, look at his percentages.


In a weaker era of basketball.

Debatable. Certainly superior talent with the influx of foreign talent.


Lebron didn't even make the playoffs (2005) when he had another allstar on his team in Big Z and Big Z made the allstar team before Lebron ever stepped foot in Cleveland in 2003.


Wow. Now you are arguing Lebron had superior teams to Jordan? The lengths MJ fans go.

[LebrickJames84']

jordan will always be better than lebron. let lebron work on consensly being better than kobe before we start comparing him to jordan.

[Duncan21formvp]

Ok, ok, Jordan could have been the GOAT three point shooter if he felt like taking 6 three's a game. :oldlol: There is a thing called variance. In what world do players shoot the same percentage every year? Pick a random player, look at his percentages.



Debatable. Certainly superior talent with the influx of foreign talent.



Wow. Now you are arguing Lebron had superior teams to Jordan? The lengths MJ fans go.

He had a guy who was already and allstar on the team in Big Z.

In fact he now has a guy who was won League and finals mvp. Jordan never played with a player on his teams that won league or finals mvp in his career.

[catch24]

It is flat out idiocy. The more you shoot, the more accurate you become from 3 point range. Using that "logic" every decent shooter would jack up 10 3's a game.

:oldlol: You agreeing with your troll side show. Anyone with the ability to knock down a 3PT shot, will eventually have one fall down. Are you trying to be stupid? No, not 'every decent shooter' would jack up 10 3's a game because that would be detrimental to a teams offense -- long rebounds etc.


Name some. You still haven't explained why he mysteriously saw his percentage increase in 90' and 93'. Did he lose his athleticism?

Vince Carter, LeBron James and Kobe are perfect examples. You can throw in Drexler, Pippen, Carmelo, Durant, Joe Johnson to name a few.

Increase mysteriously? :oldlol: No mystery, he shot it from 3 more. Look at his attempts. He's been quoted saying he didn't like to fall in love with that shot. His inconsistencies, attempts wise, back this up.

[Roundball_Rock]

He had a guy who was already and allstar on the team in Big Z.

In fact he now has a guy who was won League and finals mvp. Jordan never played with a player on his teams that won league or finals mvp in his career.

As I said earlier, if the claims made regarding Jordan are accurate there would be no need to go to such ridiculous lengths on the part of his fans.


. Anyone with the ability to knock down a 3PT shot, will eventually have one fall down. Are you trying to be stupid?

And? Your claim is accuracy will increase simply by making more attempts.


Vince Carter, LeBron James and Kobe are perfect examples. You can throw in Drexler, Pippen, Carmelo, Durant, Joe Johnson to name a few.

They all became more accurate because they shot more?


No mystery, he shot it from 3 more. Look at his attempts. He's been quoted saying he didn't like to fall in love with that shot. His inconsistencies, attempts wise, back this up

He sure did love it when he was making it 43% of the time...

[LA_Showtime]

Lebron didn't even make the playoffs (2005) when he had another allstar on his team in Big Z and Big Z made the allstar team before Lebron ever stepped foot in Cleveland in 2003.

Not to mention Lebron ended up with a bronze medal in 2006 after averaging 31/7/7 in the NBA. Goes to show how much easier it is for wings to score now.

Or maybe the rest of the world is figuring out how to play basketball.

Again, it's so annoying to hear people prop Jordan up like he's on some other level. LeBron's got a chance to be better. Get over it.

[Roundball_Rock]

Or maybe the rest of the world is figuring out how to play basketball.

Again, it's so annoying to hear people prop Jordan up like he's on some other level. LeBron's got a chance to be better. Get over it.

His 09' playoffs were amazing and this guy is not even at the peak of his physical or basketball powers. An average jumper and no post up game. How good will this guy be in 2-3 years? :eek: 38/8/8 in the conference finals at age 24...

[catch24]

And? Your claim is accuracy will increase simply by making more attempts.

No, my claim is accuracy will increase by TAKING more attempts. This does NOT apply for natural shooters like Nash, Dirk, Glen Rice, LB, Mark Price etc. Use that brain of yours kiddo.


They all became more accurate because they shot more?

They all became MORE accurate because their attempts went up +2-3. If you're a great scorer (semi-decent shooter), you're eventually going to make one. I guarantee most of the players I've listed will miss their first 3PA (if he they only had an opportunity to attempt one a game).


He sure did love it when he was making it 43% of the time...

:confusedshrug: 3PT line shortened? I'm sure he enjoyed making 35-37% of his 3 point attempts during the 89-90 and 92-93 seasons (no more than 3 attempted).

[LA_Showtime]

His 09' playoffs were amazing and this guy is not even at the peak of his physical or basketball powers. An average jumper and no post up game. How good will this guy be in 2-3 years? :eek: 38/8/8 in the conference finals at age 24...

Exactly. I'm not trying to say that LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan. But look at his career from an unbiased perspective. He's got a great chance to eventually surpass MJ. He may never equal MJ's success of the basketball court (in terms of popularity), but he definitely can be considered better than MJ when it's all said and done.

[madmax]

Or maybe the rest of the world is figuring out how to play basketball.

Again, it's so annoying to hear people prop Jordan up like he's on some other level. LeBron's got a chance to be better. Get over it.

it's really mindboggling how all the sport results and athletes are generally getting better and better, yet according to some nostalgia tards basketball is somehow an exception:confusedshrug: And this all "weak" era BS argument is getting really old really quickly...

[LA_Showtime]

In a weaker era of basketball.

Says the man who worships Wilt Chamberlain. WOW.:oldlol: :banghead: :lol

[LA_Showtime]

it's really mindboggling how all the sport results and athletes are generally getting better and better, yet according to some nostalgia tards basketball is somehow an exception:confusedshrug: And this all "weak" era BS argument is getting really old really quickly...

LeBron is a freak of an athlete. You almost have to wonder if his mother injected him with steroids on a daily basis as a child. :oldlol:

[Jacks3]

wow at loki acting like this isn't close. dude, you were the same guy who made a "Jordan vs. Kobe" thread and used nothing but PER, winshares, eff and other awful statistics. Now when you look at Lebron and Jordan in the same light...it's not close? Lebron had the highest single season PER ever last year. He had a playoff PER that Jordan has never even approached. What's the deal? I thought PER, EFF, winshares were all we needed to compare players? :confusedshrug:

I think it's actually really close. I don't think Jordan would lead that Cavs team to 66 wins (we've seen what he can do with that type of talent around him) so take that for whatever it's worth. Give Lebron a team that is capable of winning nearly 60 games without him, and it's scary to think how many championships he will tally.
This.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Debatable. Certainly superior talent with the influx of foreign talent.



No. It's improved a LOT since 2007, but still not up to the 80's as far as top loaded teams. The increase of foreign players is not enough to make up for the league's expansion and rule changes to make the sport more like the Euro game, with less physical play. Offense's are too predictable now, not as creative in part due to the new defense that allows lazy defenders to sag or fill a lane while playing a weakside zone (Lakers) against dominant individual players. Guys like Barkley, Mo, & A.C. at peak form may very well have averaged a good 8-10 offensive boards per night the way teams set up now defensively. Assuming they don't play man on man, any great 80's team would pick them apart at will.

Again, not to down the individual player talent in today's league which is great and always has been. Especially the wing scoring talent at the guard position which has never been better than the '00's. But defense & especially rebounding is not close to what it used to be. The difference in offensive court awareness, off ball movement, & passing goes without saying. It's a different game. Plus the fact that the 80's had far and away the best collection of forwards in history with the likes of Bird, Erving, Johnson, Wilkins, Dantley, Worthy, Mitchell, Woolridge, English, King, Person, Vandeweghe, Kellogg, McDaniel, Tripucka, Wilkes, Aguirre, Mullin, Natt, & many, many more. The physical talent is there today, but the game is not. As Coach Brown would say, "play the right way." I like today's game, despite what you may think. It is great despite some of the changes, but still not up to par with the 80's.

[Duncan21formvp]

Or maybe the rest of the world is figuring out how to play basketball.

Again, it's so annoying to hear people prop Jordan up like he's on some other level. LeBron's got a chance to be better. Get over it.

Yes with Carlos Arroyo as a team's best player getting whooped by 20+.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Or maybe the rest of the world is figuring out how to play basketball.

Again, it's so annoying to hear people prop Jordan up like he's on some other level. LeBron's got a chance to be better. Get over it.
Yes he does, but today's LeBron is clearly inferior.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, my claim is accuracy will increase by TAKING more attempts. This does NOT apply for natural shooters like Nash, Dirk, Glen Rice, LB, Mark Price etc. Use that brain of yours kiddo.

Taking, making. Semantics. You mentioned several good but not great shooters. Why didn't they get the memo? Why didn't they take 6 three's a game? They could have shot a much higher percentage, right? What you fail to see is no player believes your theory. They shoot more because they are shooting better, not the other way around.


They all became MORE accurate because their attempts went up +2-3.

Apparently they fail/failed to realize that "truth."


'm not trying to say that LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan. But look at his career from an unbiased perspective. He's got a great chance to eventually surpass MJ. He may never equal MJ's success of the basketball court (in terms of popularity), but he definitely can be considered better than MJ when it's all said and done.

Yeah. There are two issues: 1) being a better player 2) being better historically. He easily can be the former but in order to become the latter he needs to win multiple rings. You cannot be a serious GOAT candidate with 0 or even 1 ring. The lowest for any GOAT candidate is 2 for Wilt and look at how dominant he had to be individually to put himself in the conversation. Everyone else has 3+.


it's really mindboggling how all the sport results and athletes are generally getting better and better, yet according to some nostalgia tards basketball is somehow an exception And this all "weak" era BS argument is getting really old really quickly...

Fundamentals are worse and the rules make it easier. Those are legit complaints. To argue that there is less talent is ridiculous. The 60's>the 50's in talent because of the influx of black players. This is accepted by all. This makes sense. The larger the talent pool, the better the players selected for the NBA are. Well, we now have international players. The talent level now is superior because of a better talent pool.

Which team would, 9 times out of 10, be better?

Team A: 12 players selected from a random group of 50 people
Team B: 12 players selected from a random group of 100 people
Team C: 12 players selected from a random group of 150 people

The world population is 6+ billion. 20% of the league is now of international origin. There are twice as many international players than native-born whites in the NBA. Yet the talent level is now inferior?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Says the man who worships Wilt Chamberlain. WOW.:oldlol: :banghead: :lol
What is this supposed to mean? Wilt was better than either of them at his peak in a great era of basketball. He (as well as Alcindor) was also a superior high school prospect to LeBron.

[LA_Showtime]

Yes he does, but today's LeBron is clearly inferior.

Let's wait until the playoffs are over to decide that. But yes, I would pick MJ's 7th season over LeBron's at this point.

[LA_Showtime]

What is this supposed to mean? Wilt was better than either of them at his peak. He (as well as Alcindor) was also a superior high school prospect to LeBron.

Sorry, your favorite player is Chamberlain and you think he's the GOAT. As a result, there is no way you should be able to use the, "he played in a weaker era" excuse.

[Abraham Lincoln]

But the 60's was a great era of basketball.

[Glide2keva]

I think some people are letting ESPN decide for them.

[catch24]

Taking, making. Semantics. You mentioned several good but not great shooters. Why didn't they get the memo? Why didn't they take 6 three's a game? They could have shot a much higher percentage, right? What you fail to see is no player believes your theory. They shoot more because they are shooting better, not the other way around.

Semantics? :roll: More like evidence. Facts, Rocky. No, the players I mentioned were elite shooters from 3, and overall on the court. The second tier are, for the most part, better scorers who aren't as good shooting, but do other things to have more impact on the floor. Gee, why don't players take 6 threes a game? Maybe because a 3PT shot, are for the most part, low percentage? 30-40% isn't exactly 'efficient', for 3 ball standards, yes, but still a low % shot generally speaking. No player believe my theories. Yes, this is why coaches continue to preach 3PT shooting (ala the 80s) are for bail out possessions or wide open looks. Would you want a player you're coaching to pull up from 3 on a fast break because he's a 40% 3PT shooter? :oldlol:




Apparently they fail/failed to realize that "truth."

What? Their attempts are indicative to their percentage. Stop trying so hard and use common sense.

:confusedshrug:

[Fatal9]

The increase of foreign players is not enough to make up for the league's expansion
You do realize that the greatest expansion effort in league history took place from '88-'96? I think 6-7 teams were added (maybe 8, don't want to look it up)...that's nearly a team every year. This is why competition at the top was so weak in the 90s. The effects of this expansion effort lingered into the early 00s but now the NBA is extremely talented at the top (Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Spurs and lower tier teams like Mavs, Nuggets, Suns, Blazers). Just look at the last two Laker runs to the finals. They've had to face five 50+ win teams out of six series. The Lakers in the 80s? Beat up on mostly 35-45 win teams on their way to the finals. The West in the 00s has been ridiculously tough and the East now is too. The expansion argument should be reserved for the 90s not the 00s.

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree with the evidence. You interpret the evidence oddly.


30-40% isn't exactly 'efficient', for 3 ball standards

There is a huge difference between 30% and 40% in terms of efficiency. That translates to the difference between 60% and 45% on 2's.


No player believe my theories.

If a good three point shooter could raise his three point accuracy from 35% to 45% why wouldn't he, especially when it could be done so easily?


What? Their attempts are indicative to their percentage.

Again, the more accurate they shoot the more 3's they will take. That is common sense. Why take a bunch of 3's when you are shooting poorly? You seem to perversely think they can magically increase accuracy simply by chucking up a bunch of 3's. The Bulls are a pathetic 3 point shooting team. Write Vinny with your magic solution for their woes. All the Bulls have to do is have Salmons and Hinrich chuck three's.

Abe all that may be true. I am undecided on those other things. With respect to talent, though, this era>the previous one's due to sheer numbers.

[Abraham Lincoln]

You do realize that the greatest expansion effort in league history took place from '88-'96? I think 6-7 teams were added (maybe 8, don't want to look it up)...that's nearly a team every year. This is why competition at the top was so weak in the 90s. The effects of this expansion effort lingered into the early 00s but now the NBA is extremely talented at the top (Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Spurs and lower tier teams like Mavs, Nuggets, Suns, Blazers). Just look at the last two Laker runs to the finals. They've had to face five 50+ win teams out of six series. The Lakers in the 80s? Beat up on mostly 35-45 win teams on their way to the finals. The West in the 00s has been ridiculously tough and the East now is too. The expansion argument should be reserved for the 90s not the 00s.
I am taking about the 80's, It may not be as strong but it is still relevant. The Lakers today would be defeated by a number of the top tier teams from the 80's as would the Magic. Healthy Boston would fare better. Cavs are not talented in comparison to the top 80's teams.

[catch24]

I agree with the evidence. You interpret the evidence oddly.

You cannot comprehend shot selection, attempts or lack there of?




There is a huge difference between 30% and 40% in terms of efficiency. That translates to the difference between 60% and 45% on 2's.

Which is why I said, for a 3PT, that % is "ok", but it's called a low % shot for a reason. Think about it.


If a good three point shooter could raise his three point accuracy from 35% to 45% why wouldn't he, especially when it could be done so easily?

Why take the chance? If he's hitting 40% of his 3's with 4-5 attempts, that's fine. Ask Larry Brown why a player doesn't jack up 10 3's a game.



Again, the more accurate they shoot the more 3's they will take. Why take a bunch of 3's when you are shooting poorly? That is common sense. You seem to perversely think they can magically increase accuracy simply by chucking up a bunch of 3's. The Bulls are a pathetic 3 point shooting team. Write Vinny with your magic solution for their woes. All the Bulls have to do is have Salmons and Hinrich chuck three's.

This only pertains to a certain amount of players in the L (LeBron, Kobe and Jordan for example). Why continue shooting if you're shooting poorly? Ask Kobe this. No, it's not common sense, because you don't even understand what you're spewing. Perversely? You can ignorantly believe their attempts have no direct correlation with their efficiency. :oldlol: That's todays game for you. 3PT shooting with the rules today = why the league the past 4-5 years have shot terribly. 3PT are used as necessity rather than bail out possessions/wide open looks. Yes, lets help Vinny, who is currently fighting for a job!!! LOL..

[symbol33]

That is a bit of an unfair comparison. Jordan was 27--in his physical peak (27-30 years old for most basketball players)--in 91'. Lebron is 25 and yet to reach his physical peak. Let's compare them in 2-3 years...

:lol you point is so funny, isn't it? put the fact that Jordan got injured in his second year which almost ruined his entire season. Physical peak is just one small factor when considering personal performance, experience in court is a much more important factor than physical reason, they two can fly the first time they went into NBA, their physical were outstanding the players at their time, that made they jumped out of the box.
Take another thing for example, if Leborn finished his four years study in college before he came into NBA, do you think he could get the same statics at his 25 age? I don't think so, without the experience, without the quick progress in NBA, he would not be the man he is right now.

Lebron had 35/9/7 in the playoffs last year. Jordan had 31/6/8 in the 91' playoffs (31/7/11 in the finals). Jordan's best playoff year (10 games or more) in statistical terms was 37/7/7. Statistically there isn't a huge gap between their best playoff runs. The thing is Jordan's record is in the books. Lebron's best years are yet to come. 91' Jordan was better than 10' Lebron but let's compare Lebron in 2012-14 when he reaches his physical peak with Jordan.



Lebron is at 38 mpg this year so mpg is not a factor here.[/QUOTE]

[Alhazred]

You do realize that the greatest expansion effort in league history took place from '88-'96?

1966-1976, actually. The league went from nine teams to 22 in that era, nine of which came between 66 and 74. Please learn to do more research, Fatal.


I think 6-7 teams were added (maybe 8, don't want to look it up)...that's nearly a team every year. This is why competition at the top was so weak in the 90s. The effects of this expansion effort lingered into the early 00s but now the NBA is extremely talented at the top (Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Spurs and lower tier teams like Mavs, Nuggets, Suns, Blazers).

Late 90s, particularly 1999, maybe, but the early 90s? No way. Take the best players from 07-10 against the best from 90-93 and it's the 90s in a landslide.


Just look at the last two Laker runs to the finals. They've had to face five 50+ win teams out of six series. The Lakers in the 80s? Beat up on mostly 35-45 win teams on their way to the finals.

LA went through 3 seven game series' to win their 88 title. Yeah, they had a few easy seasons, but then the Lakers didn't have too much trouble in 01, either.

[sirkeelma]

I prefer Kobe in his 7th ear career.:hammerhead:

[catch24]

Coaches would like to see their players take higher percentage shots rather than risk long rebounds and open windows of opportunities for the other team to run fast breaks (3PT attempts). For starters, as I said in my previous posts, it's low %. That means it has less chances of going in than a jump shot from mid range or inside the paint. The point to remember is that the closer to the basket, the better. If you spot an open lane then by all means drive your way through. If you see an open teammate who can knock down jumpers from the perimeter, then please do the team a favor and pass the ball to him.

I'm done with this thread.

[Fatal9]

LA went through 3 seven game series' to win their 88 title.
and...?

Lakers faced a team that won 31 games in the first round. Didnt see a 50 win team till the WCF and got taken to 7 by them. And before that got taken to 7 by the 47 win Jazz. Just because they underperformed in the playoffs, it means it was a tougher year? Win totals of teams Lakers faced in '86: 35, 44 and 51 (got taken down by the only 50 win team they encountered). Lakers wouldn't have nearly as many rings in the 80s if they had to go through the Sixers, Bucks and later on, the Pistons, just to make it to the finals. 70s were another weak decade because of expansion, though league parity was maybe the best it's ever been (reason why you saw so many upsets). Didn't look that far back, but the point remains, the expansion argument applies to 90s more than the 00s.

[Alhazred]

Coaches would like to see their players take higher percentage shots rather than risk long rebounds and open windows of opportunities for the other team to run fast breaks (3PT attempts). For starters, as I said in my previous posts, it's low %. That means it has less chances of going in than a jump shot from mid range or inside the paint. The point to remember is that the closer to the basket, the better. If you spot an open lane then by all means drive your way through. If you see an open teammate who can knock down jumpers from the perimeter, then please do the team a favor and pass the ball to him.


Thank you, well said.

[Roundball_Rock]

So it is inefficient yet you can become efficient if you shoot a lot which is why MJ sometimes did it?! MJ could raise his accuracy to around 40% magically by taking more shots. MJ magically could do it but just didn't feel like doing it most of the time. I suppose he just got bored and decided to shoot around 40% for fun for a few years? Do you know about MJ's character? Apparently not because the notion that he could have shot 40% but settled for 17% is absurd.


Why take the chance? If he's hitting 40% of his 3's with 4-5 attempts, that's fine.

Your argument is a 25-30% shooter can become a 40% shooter simply by shooting more. If he can do that what about 34-38% types like Carter and Lebron?


Why continue shooting if you're shooting poorly?

According to you, if you just shoot enough your three point accuracy will increase substantially.


You can ignorantly believe their attempts have no direct correlation with their efficiency.

The correlation is this:

1) a player is shooting better in a given game or a given season
2) that player will then take more 3 pointers

According to you it works like this:

1) Players generally shoot the best on 3's when they take more 3's than they normally do
2) This is simply because of an increased number of attempts

Your claim is the more you shoot, the more accurate you become. 99% of people would say the more accurate you shoot on 3's, the more you will take. Hence the concept of "heat checks."


put the fact that Jordan got injured in his second year which almost ruined his entire season.

What relevance does it have? He dropped 44 ppg in the first round that year.


Physical peak is just one small factor when considering personal performance, experience in court is a much more important factor than physical reason, they two can fly the first time they went into NBA, their physical were outstanding the players at their time, that made they jumped out of the box.

Take another thing for example, if Leborn finished his four years study in college before he came into NBA, do you think he could get the same statics at his 25 age? I don't think so, without the experience, without the quick progress in NBA, he would not be the man he is right now.

It is hard to say. On the one hand, he has more NBA experience coming out of high school. On the other hand, he could have refined his game more at the college level--especially if he was coached by someone like Dean Smith. According to Jordan he was greatly helped by Smith.

Regarding expansion, I forgot who said it but if the argument is less teams in the 80's means superior talent to the 00's does not the same logic say the 60's had the ultimate talent since there were only 8 teams? In the 60's a player who is the third best player on an average team today would be the 12th man.

[Alhazred]

and...?

Lakers faced a team that won 31 games in the first round. Didnt see a 50 win team till the WCF and got taken to 7 by them. And before that got taken to 7 by the 47 win Jazz. Just because they underperformed in the playoffs, it means it was a tougher year? Win totals of teams Lakers faced in '86: 35, 44 and 51 (got taken down by the only 50 win team they encountered). Lakers wouldn't have nearly as many rings in the 80s if they had to go through the Sixers, Bucks and later on, the Pistons, just to make it to the finals. 70s were another weak decade because of expansion, though league parity was maybe the best it's ever been (reason why you saw so many upsets). Didn't look that far back, but the point remains, the expansion argument applies to 90s more than the 00s.

You're putting way too much stock into regular season wins. If that truly mattered, then I guess the 09 Cavaliers(66-16) were better than the 87 Lakers (65-17) and the Rockets should have had no chance at the championship in 95(Who beat four 50+ win teams in the playoffs, three of which won 60 or more). All regular season wins are good for is homecourt advantage and qualifying for the playoffs.

[magnax1]

:oldlol:
ditto

[catch24]

In 253 games from 86-98 where Jordan shot 3 or more attempts from the arc, he's 38.5%....in 4 or more attempts (144 games), he's 42% from 3. Jordan was much better from 3 than most believe, given more shots. Bird had 4 seasons where he averaged 1 or less 3-ball attempts a game. You can't get warm from that. Most were probably bail-outs...Larry Bird shot 39.8% from 3 if you didn't take those years into account.

Ok, I'm done now...

[Roundball_Rock]

So MJ--the ultimate competitor--could shoot 39% from 3's if he felt like it but slacked off and settled for 17%. Sure...

You post his numbers when he shot more than normal as if that means anything. You can do the same with anyone like that, as I showed with Vince Carter and Lebron. If you are cold are you going to be gunning 3's? When you are shooting better you will take more. What don't you understand here? Using your "logic" VC and Lebron could easily shoot 45-46% if they gunned enough 3's because that is where they shoot when they shoot 2+ above their average. They just aren't smart enough to figure out your magic formula. Neither was Jordan, except in 4 1/5 of his 15 1/5 seasons (with 2 1/5 being with the shorter line).

[LebrickJames84']

I vote Roundball Rock needs to get a life instead of wasting his life posting on Insidehoops why LeBron is better than Jordan. Get a girl or something, do something with your boys like playing ball yourself, instead of spending your whole day trying to convince an ultra small population of basketball fans why Jordan isn't on LeBron's level.

[Roundball_Rock]

trying to convince an ultra small population of basketball fans why Jordan isn't on LeBron's level.

When did I say that?

This coming from someone whose user name mocks Lebron. Yet I am the hater? :roll:

[liljohnnywall]

I vote Roundball Rock needs to get a life instead of wasting his life posting on Insidehoops why LeBron is better than Jordan. Get a girl or something, do something with your boys like playing ball yourself, instead of spending your whole day trying to convince an ultra small population of basketball fans why Jordan isn't on LeBron's level.


+1

[liljohnnywall]

When did I say that?

This coming from someone whose user name mocks Lebron. Yet I am the hater? :roll:

+1 this world is full of haters.

[juju151111]

When did I say that?

This coming from someone whose user name mocks Lebron. Yet I am the hater? :roll:
LOL you don't have to ay it. Peopele can read your damn post. I can call someone stupid without actually saying the word.

[Roundball_Rock]

LOL you don't have to ay it. Peopele can read your damn post. I can call someone stupid without actually saying the word.

The amusing thing is hypocrisy. Now can you, johhnywall or "Lebrick" show where I said Jordan was not on Lebron's level? Thanks in advance.

[eliteballer]

That is a bit of an unfair comparison. Jordan was 27--in his physical peak (27-30 years old for most basketball players)--in 91'. Lebron is 25 and yet to reach his physical peak. Let's compare them in 2-3 years...

LMAO. Sorry to break it to you kiddo but players physically peak way before 30. More like 20-25.

[Simple Jack]

LMAO. Sorry to break it to you kiddo but players physically peak way before 30. More like 20-25.

It's rather creepy that you keep calling him kiddo. Is that you Ted Bundy?

Anyway, the human body is in peak physical condition around 28 give or take a year or two.

[Simple Jack]

I vote Roundball Rock needs to get a life instead of wasting his life posting on Insidehoops why LeBron is better than Jordan. Get a girl or something, do something with your boys like playing ball yourself, instead of spending your whole day trying to convince an ultra small population of basketball fans why Jordan isn't on LeBron's level.


:roll: says the guy with an avatar hating on another poster.

[cotdt]

care to elaborate, what are those stupid things apart from his mindboggling production numbers? You act like Jordan and Kobe are PEREFCT players and they don't miss shots and don't turn the ball over...the game consists of more than last second buzzer-beaters, it actually goes for WHOLE 48 minutes

I made some mental notes in the Orlando series, which highlights why MJ is still the more effective player:

-Over and over again Lebron dribbles the ball for 19 seconds, then drives -> meets a double team -> passes the ball to a teammate waiting at the perimeter with 2 seconds remaining at the shot clock -> teammate takes bad shot and misses.

-Lebron didn't facilitate much for long stretches in the game, causing his teammates to get cold, losing double-digit leads to lose the game.

-Lebron had a lot of stupid turnovers in the 4th quarter. He missed 5 free throws at the end of a close game, the refs tried to bail him out by giving him 3 more free throws after Howard cleanly blocked his shot, but it didn't work as the Cavs lost.

-Lebron took easy defensive assignments like guarding Rafar Alston, which he failed to do well as Alston exploded for 26 points. This allowed Orlando to have huge mismatches like Hedo Turkoglu destroying Mo Williams, rendering Mo ineffective. Mo couldn't make open shots either, but that's a separate issue.

-I don't care if Lebron had a PER of 40+ in that series, he did not play winning basketball. This is why I think players like MJ and Kobe are better. Statistically, Lebron is equal to MJ and better than Kobe but stats don't tell the whole story.

[Lebron23]

I made some mental notes in the Orlando series, which highlights why MJ is still the more effective player:

-Over and over again Lebron dribbles the ball for 19 seconds, then drives -> meets a double team -> passes the ball to a teammate waiting at the perimeter with 2 seconds remaining at the shot clock -> teammate takes bad shot and misses.

-Lebron didn't facilitate much for long stretches in the game, causing his teammates to get cold, losing double-digit leads to lose the game.

-Lebron had a lot of stupid turnovers in the 4th quarter. He missed 5 free throws at the end of a close game, the refs tried to bail him out by giving him 3 more free throws after Howard cleanly blocked his shot, but it didn't work as the Cavs lost.

-Lebron took easy defensive assignments like guarding Rafar Alston, which he failed to do well as Alston exploded for 26 points. This allowed Orlando to have huge mismatches like Hedo Turkoglu destroying Mo Williams, rendering Mo ineffective. Mo couldn't make open shots either, but that's a separate issue.

-I don't care if Lebron had a PER of 40+ in that series, he did not play winning basketball. This is why I think players like MJ and Kobe are better. Statistically, Lebron is equal to MJ and better than Kobe but stats don't tell the whole story.

Why did you BUMP this thread? The Moderators already deleted the other thread.

[cotdt]

Why did you BUMP this thread? The Moderators already deleted the other thread.

That thread got poisoned by PB, but this thread is still clean.

[madmax]

-Over and over again Lebron dribbles the ball for 19 seconds, then drives -> meets a double team -> passes the ball to a teammate waiting at the perimeter with 2 seconds remaining at the shot clock -> teammate takes bad shot and misses.

Lebron had to make all the plays and dribble the ball for long stretches, because his choking teammates were unable to create their own offense and were bricking wide open shots


-Lebron didn't facilitate much for long stretches in the game, causing his teammates to get cold, losing double-digit leads to lose the game.


he did it for the same reason - his teammates were choking for the MOST parts of the games...watch the series one more time and open your eyes for once

-Lebron had a lot of stupid turnovers in the 4th quarter. He missed 5 free throws at the end of a close game, the refs tried to bail him out by giving him 3 more free throws after Howard cleanly blocked his shot, but it didn't work as the Cavs lost.

Those TO's were a direct result of fatigue and physical pressure from Magic team...Lebron was CRAMPING and bleeding after one game in the series, that's how much wor he had to do for his team even to stay competitive


-Lebron took easy defensive assignments like guarding Rafar Alston, which he failed to do well as Alston exploded for 26 points. This allowed Orlando to have huge mismatches like Hedo Turkoglu destroying Mo Williams, rendering Mo ineffective. Mo couldn't make open shots either, but that's a separate issue.

I agree about stupid defensive rotations and assignments, most of the blame goes towards dumbass coach though...


-I don't care if Lebron had a PER of 40+ in that series, he did not play winning basketball. This is why I think players like MJ and Kobe are better. Statistically, Lebron is equal to MJ and better than Kobe but stats don't tell the whole story.

this is pure fanboy talk without any objective reasoning

[Roundball_Rock]

Lebron had to make all the plays and dribble the ball for long stretches, because his choking teammates were unable to create their own offense and were bricking wide open shots


he did it for the same reason - his teammates were choking for the MOST parts of the games...watch the series one more time and open your eyes for once


Those TO's were a direct result of fatigue and physical pressure from Magic team...Lebron was CRAMPING and bleeding after one game in the series, that's how much wor he had to do for his team even to stay competitive



I agree about stupid defensive rotations and assignments, most of the blame goes towards dumbass coach though...

:applause:

You can cherry pick anyone in this way, including Jordan and Kobe. The fact is Lebron is very comparable to Jordan through 6 1/2 seasons--even though Jordan had the advantage of coming out of Dean Smith's program and Lebron came out of high school. Lebron has had more team success than Jordan too. The most interesting thing is we have yet to see peak Lebron...