Kobe Bryant's 2005-2006 season

[catch24]

http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/KobeBryant02.jpg

Season: 35 PPG 45% FG 85% FT 34.7% 3PT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
Playoffs: 28 PPG 50% FG 77% FT 40% 3PT 6 rebounds 5 assists

Scoring Highs:

-62pts on 58% shooting
-81pts on 60% shooting
-50pts on 57% shooting (playoffs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm0C6OIUTVM (watch this video to see the stuff Kobe pulled off through out the season).

A few questions: Putting his season into perspective, where does it rank all time? Has anyone in history had to shoulder the load scoring, assisting/facilitating his teams offense like Kobe did this year? Has any player in league history ever had to carry worse teammates to the playoffs?

For me, personally, it's a top 10 season of all time, and one can make a case for it to be top 5 given the context of what kind "help" he had.

[OldSchoolBBall]

It's nowhere near a top 10 season all time. You're crazy imo. Short list of seasons that were better:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)

There might be others too. And this is being pretty generous, as some of those guys had other seasons better than Kobe's 2006 as well. Even if you cut those seasons in HALF, Kobe's '06 still doesn't make the top 10 individual seasons of all time. If we start factoring in team success/accolades, it drops even farther. I was just talking individual level of play above.

[lefthook00]

Pretty much what he said ^^^. But that season was VERY impressive and pleasing to watch, especially b/c he takes a sh*tload of jumpshots and his shot selection was worse(better for the fan). He was so much quicker than he is now.

[catch24]

First of all, thank you mods for putting this back up


It's nowhere near a top 10 season all time. You're crazy imo. Short list of seasons that were better

No where near a top 10, huh? How so? Lol @ me being crazy, keep this thread respectable. What didn't Kobe do that these guys did so much "better"?

[Lebron23]

Pretty much what he said ^^^. But that season was VERY impressive and pleasing to watch, especially b/c he takes a sh*tload of jumpshots and his shot selection was worse(better for the fan). He was so much quicker than he is now.


2002-03 Season was Kobe's most productive season in the NBA.

[ShaqAttack3234]

A few questions: Putting his season into perspective, where does it rank all time? Has anyone in history had to shoulder the load scoring, assisting/facilitating his teams offense like Kobe did this year?

In 1987, Jordan averaged 37.1 ppg, the next 3 best scorers combined for 35.5 ppg and one of those 3(Gene Banks) missed 19 games so in reality the scoring output was much lower. Basically the same exact thing happened the following year except Jordan dropped to 35 ppg, but his assists rose to 5.9 per game.

Actually, Lebron also did more as far as scoring/faciliating ect. in 2006 and 2008. Lebron averaged 31.4 and 30 ppg and 6.6 and 7.2 apg in those years, respectively.


Has any player in league history ever had to carry worse teammates to the playoffs?

Jordan in 1987 and the team he carried to 50 wins the following season was no better than Bryant's 2006 team.

Kobe's team is a bad team without Bryant, but lets not exaggerate...they weren't scrubs. Lamar Odom averaged 14.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg and a team high 5.5 apg with 0.9 spg and 0.8 bpg on an efficient 48.1% from the field and 37.2% on 3's. He was an all purpose forward witht he size to play power forward, but his ball handling skills made him the Lakers point forward.

Smush Parker was decent in 2006. His production was identical to Derek Fisher's better years, except he was more efficient. I mean 11.5 ppg, 3.7 apg and 1.7 spg on 45% shooting(37% on 3's) is certainly respectable. He also averaged just 1.8 turnovers per game.

Before Kwame Brown lost all of his confidence, he was actually a capable role player. He could defend the post, rebound and block some shots. Chris Mihm also provided offense at the position as he averaged double figure ppg, over 6 boards, passed well and blocked 1.2 shots per game in just 26 mpg.

I'm not trying to make this sound like an all-star team, but I'm sure if you look back in NBA history you'll find a handful of stars who led worse supporting casts.


For me, personally, it's a top 10 season of all time, and one can make a case for it to be top 5 given the context of what kind "help" he had.

I see no case for that, IMO. Off the top of my head...

Jordan had better seasons in 1990, 1991, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1989, 1996 and 1987
Kareem had better seasons in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980
Shaq had better seasons in 2000, 2001, 2002, 1994 and 1995
Wilt had better seasons in 1960, 1962, 1966, 1967 and 1968
Bird had better seasons in 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988
Magic had better seasons in 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1990
Olajuwon had better seasons in 1993, 1994 and 1995
Duncan had better seasons in 2002 and 2003

IMO, 2006 was not even Kobe's best, that would be 2008.

[catch24]

In 1987, Jordan averaged 37.1 ppg, the next 3 best scorers combined for 35.5 ppg and one of those 3(Gene Banks) missed 19 games so in reality the scoring output was much lower. Basically the same exact thing happened the following year except Jordan dropped to 35 ppg, but his assists rose to 5.9 per game.

Actually, Lebron also did more as far as scoring/faciliating ect. in 2006 and 2008. Lebron averaged 31.4 and 30 ppg and 6.6 and 7.2 apg in those years, respectively.



Jordan in 1987 and the team he carried to 50 wins the following season was no better than Bryant's 2006 team.

Kobe's team is a bad team without Bryant, but lets not exaggerate...they weren't scrubs. Lamar Odom averaged 14.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg and a team high 5.5 apg with 0.9 spg and 0.8 bpg on an efficient 48.1% from the field and 37.2% on 3's. He was an all purpose forward witht he size to play power forward, but his ball handling skills made him the Lakers point forward.

Smush Parker was decent in 2006. His production was identical to Derek Fisher's better years, except he was more efficient. I mean 11.5 ppg, 3.7 apg and 1.7 spg on 45% shooting(37% on 3's) is certainly respectable. He also averaged just 1.8 turnovers per game.

Before Kwame Brown lost all of his confidence, he was actually a capable role player. He could defend the post, rebound and block some shots. Chris Mihm also provided offense at the position as he averaged double figure ppg, over 6 boards, passed well and blocked 1.2 shots per game in just 26 mpg.

I'm not trying to make this sound like an all-star team, but I'm sure if you look back in NBA history you'll find a handful of stars who led worse supporting casts.



I see no case for that, IMO. Off the top of my head...

Jordan had better seasons in 1990, 1991, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1989, 1996 and 1987
Kareem had better seasons in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980
Shaq had better seasons in 2000, 2001, 2002, 1994 and 1995
Wilt had better seasons in 1960, 1962, 1966, 1967 and 1968
Bird had better seasons in 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988
Magic had better seasons in 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1990
Olajuwon had better seasons in 1993, 1994 and 1995
Duncan had better seasons in 2002 and 2003

IMO, 2006 was not even Kobe's best, that would be 2008.

Great post. If you go to my youtube channel (www.youtube.com/user/mayhem8z) you can see there is a Kobe fan arguing with a Jordan fan, debating who had it worse, MJ in 87 or Kobe in 06. Pretty much the sole reason I made this thread. My opinion? It's a wash, but Kobe's season was a top 10 given the situation(s) he was dealing it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No where near a top 10, huh? How so? Lol @ me being crazy, keep this thread respectable. What didn't Kobe do that these guys did so much "better"?

Care to tell me which season noted above by which player you would take 2006 Kobe over for the course of a season? Thanks.

Also, 1987 Jordan and 2006 Kobe is a "wash" only if you're strictly looking at scoring. When you throw in MJ's other numbers, especially his 2.9 stl/1.5 blk per game, it's not really close.

[GP_20]

Has any player in league history ever had to carry worse teammates to the playoffs?

Gary Payton did it with far worse in 2000. He had McGrady's 20 win teammates.


Here's who he had as his best players

Out of Prime Baker coming off a 14/6 season
Brent Barry coming off a 11/4 season
Ruben Patterson (Career high 2.7ppg)


Those were his 3 Best Players :violin:


Yet he took them to the playoffs in a time the West was very competitive. If he had Kobe's teammates, they easily could've won 50 games imo.

[Dave3]

Gary Payton did it with far worse in 2000. He had McGrady's 20 win teammates.


Here's who he had as his best players

Out of Prime Baker coming off a 14/6 season
Brent Barry coming off a 11/4 season
Ruben Patterson (Career high 2.7ppg)


Those were his 3 Best Players :violin:


Yet he took them to the playoffs in a time the West was very competitive. If he had Kobe's teammates, they easily could've won 50 games imo.
Wth are you talking about. That year he averaged 11.6 ppg...and then Maxwell added another 11 ppg. He had 4 teammates averaging double figures ppg.
Also, why does the season Baker is coming off matter? For that year he averaged 17/8, and Brent Barry averaged 12/5...
Why are you changing numbers?

[catch24]

Care to tell me which season noted above by which player you would take 2006 Kobe over for the course of a season? Thanks.

Also, 1987 Jordan and 2006 Kobe is a "wash" only if you're strictly looking at scoring. When you throw in MJ's other numbers, especially his 2.9 stl/1.5 blk per game, it's not really close.

I called it a "wash" because of the help they both had. I didn't say Kobe and Jordan's seasons were equal or that Kobe's was better.

Kobe's 2006 rivals Magic's 88 season given Kobe had a higher TS% and just as high of effective field goal %. Kobe scored more points, had less turnovers, had more steals and shot a better 3PT percentage (though, given the attempts, it's a little skewed). Kobe's Player effiency rating was higher as well.

[GP_20]

Wth are you talking about. That year he averaged 11.6 ppg...and then Maxwell added another 11 ppg. He had 4 teammates averaging double figures ppg.
Also, why does the season Baker is coming off matter? For that year he averaged 17/8, and Brent Barry averaged 12/5...
Why are you changing numbers?
Prior to that season, his career high was 2.7ppg. Obviously Payton makes his players better, but that shouldn't be used against him.

Why does the season they are coming off mater? :hammerhead:

That's like using the numbers with playing with Nash rather than what they were before. Besides for the pace, why do you think it matters why I am using the season prior rather than the season with? :hammerhead:

I swear people on this board say the stupidest things ever. And Vernon Maxwell played 47 games that year.



When you have Payton on your team, and he leads the league in total assists, the rest of the team will/should have decent numbers too. But I'm just showing what he had to work with coming in.

[GP_20]

And yes I'll easily take 2000 Payton over 2006 Kobe. He had a far inferior starcast, and led them to 45 wins, the same as Kobe's much superior starcast.

He also averaged

24.2ppg
6.5rpg
8.9apg
1.9apg
Led League in 3s
Led League in Total Assists
All-NBA 1st
All-Defensive 1st
Top 10 in Points, Assists, and Steals in the NBA.

[Dave3]

Prior to that season, his career high was 2.7ppg. Obviously Payton makes his players better, but that shouldn't be used against him.

Why does the season they are coming off mater? :hammerhead:

That's like using the numbers with playing with Nash rather than what they were before. Besides for the pace, why do you think it matters why I am using the season prior rather than the season with? :hammerhead:

I swear people on this board say the stupidest things ever. And Vernon Maxwell played 47 games that year.



When you have Payton on your team, and he leads the league in total assists, the rest of the team will/should have decent numbers too. But I'm just showing what he had to work with coming in.
You never said proir, you said career high = 2.7 ppg, meaning best case scenario, he averaged less than 3 ppg that year with Payton, which would be a pretty big deal.

And the whole "making players better" thing is incredibly overrated. Baker played with Payton the prior year as well, so why is Payton making him better one year and not the other? As for Baker, I can say he was averaging 21 ppg before coming to Seattle, and since he didn't actually average that much with Payton, then Payton made him worse. You use the stats they had that year because that's what everyone else is basing their arguments on, how good the supporting cast was THAT year that is in question. Players change from year to year and get better or worse. The fact that Patterson had a prior career high of 2.3 means nothing, considering later in his career he averaged 11, 12, and even 15 ppg, all without Payton, so you're going to attribute that to Payton as well?

Use proper arguments and clear language when you discuss.

[GP_20]

I also kind of find it sad Kobe missed the playoffs in 2005. Payton has had far worse players to work with, but he never finished on a losing team. Kobe's team won a pathetic 35 games that year. Payton would never allow that, and he never did, despite having far worse players.

[catch24]

So this guy is claiming he'd take Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom over Vin Baker, Ruben Patterson, Brent Barry, Rashard Lewis, Horace Grant, and Vernon Maxwell? Are you kidding? Overall, the Sonics produced more (were more efficient from 3 and 2's, played better defense, and were far more experienced than LA in 2006).

[Bodhi]

I also kind of find it sad Kobe missed the playoffs in 2005. Payton has had far worse players to work with, but he never finished on a losing team. Kobe's team won a pathetic 35 games that year. Payton would never allow that, and he never did, despite having far worse players.

Maybe that was because Kobe was dealing with injuries that year and Lamar missed a bunch of games as well.

[GP_20]

You never said proir, you said career high = 2.7 ppg, meaning best case scenario, he averaged less than 3 ppg that year with Payton, which would be a pretty big deal.

Considering I was using prior with the other players, maybe your dumbass could've figured out I was going to use prior with Ruben too. Sorry too high of expectations.



And the whole "making players better" thing is incredibly overrated. Baker played with Payton the prior year as well, so why is Payton making him better one year and not the other? As for Baker, I can say he was averaging 21 ppg before coming to Seattle, and since he didn't actually average that much with Payton, then Payton made him worse. You use the stats they had that year because that's what everyone else is basing their arguments on, how good the supporting cast was THAT year that is in question. Players change from year to year and get better or worse. The fact that Patterson had a prior career high of 2.3 means nothing, considering later in his career he averaged 11, 12, and even 15 ppg, all without Payton, so you're going to attribute that to Payton as well?

Use proper arguments and clear language when you discuss.

Vin Baker had the best season of his career in 98 playing with Payton. Those Buck teams were garbage teams he put 21ppg on. In 98, he had his best season statistically and in real life.

But by 99 his prime was over. It's okay some player's prime ends quickly. Baker's did. I'm saying that coming into the season, Payton had a lot less to work with. A washed up Vin Baker (He was nowhere near All-Star level anymore), Brent Barry, and Ruben Paterson (wow). A lot worse thank Kobe's cast. And Payton produced equal results.


And once again, when you lead the league in total assists, these scrubs you work with, some of them have to have had decent stats, otherwise he'd have to average 35ppg. But Payton tried his best to get his teammates involved (unlike Kobe), and dished 9apg.

[catch24]

I also kind of find it sad Kobe missed the playoffs in 2005. Payton has had far worse players to work with, but he never finished on a losing team. Kobe's team won a pathetic 35 games that year. Payton would never allow that, and he never did, despite having far worse players.

Kobe, Lamar, and Caron Butler missed a combined 30+ games (Kobe missed 14 and Odom missed 16). Rudy Tomjanovich also resigned due to cancer, which left the Lakers with their assistant coach midway (prior to the allstar break). Use proper context when evaluating teams, please.

[GP_20]

Maybe that was because Kobe was dealing with injuries that year and Lamar missed a bunch of games as well.
Good Point

Payton is the king of durability. He never goes out and gets injured. Hurt or not, he'll play. He won't get injured. Thats who I want on my team. The guy who will play 82 games for you every season.

And I think it's been proven that the Lakers had a below playoff record when Kobe was there as well.


So next argument please.

[GP_20]

Kobe, Lamar, and Caron Butler missed a combined 30+ games (Kobe missed 14 and Odom missed 16). Rudy Tomjanovich also resigned due to cancer, which left the Lakers were with their assistant coach midway. Use proper context when evaluating teams, please.
Read Post above


You won't see Payton miss that many games ever. And the Lakers had a below .500 record I think with Kobe there anyways.

[catch24]

Read Post above


You won't see Payton miss that many games ever. And the Lakers had a below .500 record I think with Kobe there anyways.

Your post above doesn't tell me anything. :confusedshrug:

[GP_20]

So this guy is claiming he'd take Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom over Vin Baker, Ruben Patterson, Brent Barry, Rashard Lewis, Horace Grant, and Vernon Maxwell? Are you kidding? Overall, the Sonics produced more (were more efficient from 3 and 2's, played better defense, and were far more experienced than LA in 2006).
Payton coming into the year had this on his roster


Baker- coming off a 14/6 season past prime
Ruben Paterson- 2.7career high
Barry- Another scrub at 11/3
Lewis- You mentioned Lewis? 19 year old guy with career high 2.4ppg
Maxwell- 33 year old Maxwell coming off a injury prone 10/1/1 sesason


Kobe had much better to work with. It's not even close. I'm looking at team, and I'm wondering how did they win more than 25, they look like McGrady's scrubs.

But then I remembered they had Payton leading them. :applause:

[Dave3]

Considering I was using prior with the other players, maybe your dumbass could've figured out I was going to use prior with Ruben too. Sorry too high of expectations.



Vin Baker had the best season of his career in 98 playing with Payton. Those Buck teams were garbage teams he put 21ppg on. In 98, he had his best season statistically and in real life.

But by 99 his prime was over. It's okay some player's prime ends quickly. Baker's did. I'm saying that coming into the season, Payton had a lot less to work with. A washed up Vin Baker (He was nowhere near All-Star level anymore), Brent Barry, and Ruben Paterson (wow). A lot worse thank Kobe's cast. And Payton produced equal results.


And once again, when you lead the league in total assists, these scrubs you work with, some of them have to have had decent stats, otherwise he'd have to average 35ppg. But Payton tried his best to get his teammates involved (unlike Kobe), and dished 9apg.
Actually, quite the opposite if you know how to read. If you clarify for certain things that you're speaking about prior, but fail to mention it for one, then clearly that one is not also prior. That's just how English works, so stop arguing it already.

Ok, but the point about why his prior season matters still stands considering he played both with Payton.

Baker (in the twighlight of his prime), Paterson (entering his prime), and Brent Barry are worse than Odom, Smush Parker and Kwame? Find one reputable poster that agrees with that and come back to me.

[catch24]

Baker- coming off a 14/6 season past prime

Baker still had better numbers than any of the Laker Bigs.


Ruben Paterson- 2.7career high

Barry- Another scrub at 11/3

Patterson scored 11.6ppg, not 2.7.
Another scrub who shot 41% from 3? :oldlol: 11.6ppg as well.


Kobe had much better to work with. It's not even close. I'm looking at team, and I'm wondering how did they win more than 25, they look like McGrady's scrubs.

Actually he didn't. Kwame Brown and Smush Parker never and still don't have the careers those guys I mentioned had. Hell, Smush is out of the league and he's still in his 20's.

[GP_20]

Actually, quite the opposite if you know how to read. If you clarify for certain things that you're speaking about prior, but fail to mention it for one, then clearly that one is not also prior. That's just how English works, so stop arguing it already.

Ok, but the point about why his prior season matters still stands considering he played both with Payton.

Baker (in the twighlight of his prime), Paterson (entering his prime), and Brent Barry are worse than Odom, Smush Parker and Kwame? Find one reputable poster that agrees with that and come back to me.
Fine me 1 non-Kobe fan that disagrees and comeback to me.

Here this post sums it up quite nicely


Kobe's team is a bad team without Bryant, but lets not exaggerate...they weren't scrubs. Lamar Odom averaged 14.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg and a team high 5.5 apg with 0.9 spg and 0.8 bpg on an efficient 48.1% from the field and 37.2% on 3's. He was an all purpose forward witht he size to play power forward, but his ball handling skills made him the Lakers point forward.

Smush Parker was decent in 2006. His production was identical to Derek Fisher's better years, except he was more efficient. I mean 11.5 ppg, 3.7 apg and 1.7 spg on 45% shooting(37% on 3's) is certainly respectable. He also averaged just 1.8 turnovers per game.

Before Kwame Brown lost all of his confidence, he was actually a capable role player. He could defend the post, rebound and block some shots. Chris Mihm also provided offense at the position as he averaged double figure ppg, over 6 boards, passed well and blocked 1.2 shots per game in just 26 mpg.

[GP_20]

Baker still had better numbers than any of the Laker Bigs.



Patterson scored 11.6ppg, not 2.7.
Another scrub who shot 41% from 3? :oldlol: 11.6ppg as well.



Actually he didn't. Kwame Brown and Smush Parker never and still don't have the careers those guys I mentioned had. Hell, Smush is out of the league and he's still in his 20's.


Do you know how to read?


Payton coming into the year had this on his roster

Coming into the year thats who he had. So those stats aren't part of that season. God Kobe homers are stupid.

[Dave3]

Fine me 1 non-Kobe fan that disagrees and comeback to me.

Here this post sums it up quite nicely
I disagree and I hate Kobe. I'm however not so biased that I would be stopped from thinking objectively about things.

[catch24]

Do you know how to read?


Coming into the year thats who he had. So those stats aren't part of that season. God Kobe homers are stupid.

It doesn't matter what he had coming into the year. We are talking about one season and one season only. Do you know how to post with context, or are you trying to be stupid?

[Dave3]

Do you know how to read?


Coming into the year thats who he had. So those stats aren't part of that season. God Kobe homers are stupid.
AND PLAYERS IMPROVE/GET WORSE FROM YEAR TO YEAR. Do YOU know how to read? Baker played with him the PRIOR year too, and Patterson was coming off his ROOKIE year, but of course you fail to mention that too, so that "career high" of 2.7ppg, is actually the career low in points. Your biased presentation exposes you.

[GP_20]

It doesn't matter what he had coming into the year. We are talking about one season and one season only. Do you know how to post with context, or are you trying to be stupid?
Have you ever heard of a team leader making his teammates better, trusting them, and making them play better with his play?

Gary Payton is able to do that. The players on his team didn't get better overnight suddenly.

[GP_20]

AND PLAYERS IMPROVE/GET WORSE FROM YEAR TO YEAR. Do YOU know how to read? Baker played with him the PRIOR year too, and Patterson was coming off his ROOKIE year, but of course you fail to mention that too, so that "career high" of 2.7ppg, is actually the career low in points. Your biased presentation exposes you.
Once again, players don't get that much better overnight. Changes to the point you are suggesting happen every year. They happen every year not because the player got better, but because he is playing with a different team and situation. That was the case in 00.

Payton just got Baker more involved after what happened last year. Because he knew how to trust his teammates and get the best out of them so his team can win.

[Dave3]

Have you ever heard of a team leader making his teammates better, trusting them, and making them play better with his play?

Gary Payton is able to do that. The players on his team didn't get better overnight suddenly.
Ever heard of a rookie improving? And how would Payton be making Baker better when Baker played the prior year with Payton as well?
And yes, players DO improve from year to year. Unless you want to say that LeBron's improvement in 2009 is due to Mo Williams making him better, or Kobe's improvement in 2006 is due to the addition of like Sasha Vujacic or something...Human beings are dynamic, they will always be changing. It's stupid to attribute all changes in someone to one single reason (and even that single reason is a pretty dumb one)

[GP_20]

Your post above doesn't tell me anything. :confusedshrug:
That's because you're stupid.

Lakers record in 2005 with Kobe: 28-38
Laker's record in 2005 without Kobe: 6-14


He had Odom and Butler, yet they finished with a 34-48 season. Payton never finished on a losing team.

[GP_20]

Ever heard of a rookie improving? And how would Payton be making Baker better when Baker played the prior year with Payton as well?
And yes, players DO improve from year to year. Unless you want to say that LeBron's improvement in 2009 is due to Mo Williams making him better, or Kobe's improvement in 2006 is due to the addition of like Sasha Vujacic or something...Human beings are dynamic, they will always be changing. It's stupid to attribute all changes in someone to one single reason (and even that single reason is a pretty dumb one)
This debate can go on forever.

Will you at least agree that coming into the season Kobe had more to work with Payton?

[Dave3]

Once again, players don't get that much better overnight. Changes to the point you are suggesting happen every year. They happen every year not because the player got better, but because he is playing with a different team and situation. That was the case in 00.

Payton just got Baker more involved after what happened last year. Because he knew how to trust his teammates and get the best out of them so his team can win.
Rookies do genius. Rookies will often go from horrible to decent in their second year. Dirk went from a CAREER HIGH of 8 ppg to 18 ppg the next year. Rudy Gay went from 11, to 20 ppg. Monta Ellis went from 7 ppg to 17...want more examples? Players increase production exponentially quite often in their second years.

Also, so technically Payton only made Baker better, because he made him worse the prior season since he wasn't getting the best out of him...

[Dave3]

This debate can go on forever.

Will you at least agree that coming into the season Kobe had more to work with Payton?
Of course not. In fact, to prove it you, I'll start a thread and tally up the answers. Does that work for you or are you going to make excuses?

[GP_20]

Of course not. In fact, to prove it you, I'll start a thread and tally up the answers. Does that work for you or are you going to make excuses?
Tally up answers? lol

So now since the debate who had more to work with before the start of the season, does not involve the season numbers, thus it's just to label Ruben Patterson as a nobody 2.7ppg rookie scrub, and so on.

You sure Kobe had less to work with before the start of the season? There is no players improving/getting worse involved here now.

[catch24]

Have you ever heard of a team leader making his teammates better, trusting them, and making them play better with his play?

Gary Payton is able to do that. The players on his team didn't get better overnight suddenly.

Have you heard from Kwame and Smush after their Laker stay? They had career years with Kobe and the triangle offense. Vin Baker was an allstar caliber player prior to that season. Logic much?

[GP_20]

Have you heard from Kwame and Smush after their Laker stay? They had career years with Kobe and the triangle offense. Vin Baker was an allstar caliber player prior to that season. Logic much?
He was a 14/6 player prior to 2000. All-Star? :roll:

Lamar Odom was easily better

[catch24]

That's because you're stupid.

Lakers record in 2005 with Kobe: 28-38
Laker's record in 2005 without Kobe: 6-14


He had Odom and Butler, yet they finished with a 34-48 season. Payton never finished on a losing team.

And yet again your purposely taking their record out of context to benefit your outlandish homer agenda. Kobe and Odom each missed 14 games. Keep it up, my ignore list is ready.

[Dave3]

Tally up answers? lol

So now since the debate who had more to work with before the start of the season, does not involve the season numbers, thus it's just to label Ruben Patterson as a nobody 2.7ppg rookie scrub, and so on.

You sure Kobe had less to work with before the start of the season? There is no players improving/getting worse involved here now.
It's not just to label a rookie who got no chance anything.

In the beginning of that season, Kobe had Lamar coming off of 15/10, Chris Mihm coming off 10/6, and his 3rd best player Smush was coming off a 3 ppg season.

Kobe had ONE teammate averaging double digit points going into the season. (Mihm was 9.8 ppg). That's pretty horrible....

In the end, none of this matters, because PLAYERS IMPROVE!!!

[catch24]

He was a 14/6 player prior to 2000. All-Star? :roll:

Lamar Odom was easily better

And also a 21ppg scorer grabbing 10 rebounds a game. He made the all NBA team (2nd) in 97 and the 3rd team 98. :oldlol: I'm seriously debating whether or not you're just trolling at this point.

[G-train]

That Lakers team had some good talent, but the Sonics had better basketball players.

[GollyImSoGully]

Glove can't get over the fact that nobody gives a sh!t about Peyton and Kobe is going down as a top 10 player and possibly a top 5 player. Let's talk about the fact that Payton let Billups jizz on his face in the 2004 finals or did that not happen? Payton = 1 ring. Just sad.

[GP_20]

And yet again your purposely taking their record out of context to benefit your outlandish homer agenda. Kobe and Odom each missed 14 games. Keep it up, my ignore list is ready.
Kobe + Odom + Butler

The Laker's record when they played together


Was not only not good enough for playoffs, but below .500



Owned


:roll:


So wait what were you saying?

"Kobe was injured"
"Odom was injured"
"Butler was injured"



STFU

[D.J.]

2002-03 Season was Kobe's most productive season in the NBA.



I was about to say that. His overall game was better that season.

[GP_20]

And there is no debate that Kobe had a better starcast around him in 2005, then Payton did from 99-03. Yet Payton never finished with a losing record in any of those seasons.


Kobe and the Lakers finished with 34 wins in 2005.




Seirously, that's f*ucking pathetic. Gary Payton is just too good of a player to let that happen to him. And he proved it for 5 years straight.

[GollyImSoGully]

And there is no debate that Kobe had a better starcast around him in 2005, then Payton did from 99-03. Yet Payton never finished with a losing record in any of those seasons.


Kobe and the Lakers finished with 34 wins in 2005.




Seirously, that's f*ucking pathetic. Gary Payton is just too good of a player to let that happen to him. And he proved it for 5 years straight.

You do know you're the ONLY person to think Payton aka bandwagon on teams to win rings is better than Kobe? Even Payton would slap your turban off for thinking such foolishness. Explain to us how Payton let Billups abuse him in the 04 Finals.

Kobe = top 10 player of all time RIGHT now at 31

Payton = nowhere near the top 10

Nobody is gonna give a **** about Payton because his accomplishments are not even a page long.

[catch24]

Kobe + Odom + Butler

The Laker's record when they played together
Was not only not good enough for playoffs, but below .500

What math are you doing exactly? "Lakers record in 2005 with Kobe: 28-38". Kobe was also coming off an injury (as you can see considering his FG% was at it's lowest). Also factor they just lost their head coach for more than half of the season (all of the 2nd half). Kobe + Odom + Butler rarely played together, not to mention ever 100% healthy. Idiot.

[GollyImSoGully]

Arguing with someone who thinks Payton had a better career than Kobe is useless.

[catch24]

Arguing with someone who thinks Payton had a better career than Kobe is useless.

Duly noted. He's on the ignore list.

[GP_20]

You do know you're the ONLY person to think Payton aka bandwagon on teams to win rings is better than Kobe? Even Payton would slap your turban off for thinking such foolishness. Explain to us how Payton let Billups abuse him in the 04 Finals.

Kobe = top 10 player of all time RIGHT now at 31

Payton = nowhere near the top 10

Nobody is gonna give a **** about Payton because his accomplishments are not even a page long.

He was out of his prime 2004. We are going to use his out of prime accomplishments as legit now? Then lets talk about 2006 when he won a ring.


All I have to say is, give me Prime Payton over Prime Kobe to build around. Because I know Payton will keep my team competitive no matter what is around him. He won't get hurt either. And I'm not saying that, the actual results say that.

Kobe, 2005, enough said. Even if healthy, worse than Payton did with pure scrubs. And that's "if" healthy. Something Payton had to never worry about.

[GP_20]

Arguing with someone who thinks Payton had a better career than Kobe is useless.
I'm not comparing careers dumbass

Run Kobe Fans Run!!!

You don't want to read this :roll:

[GollyImSoGully]

He was out of his prime 2004. We are going to use his out of prime accomplishments as legit now? Then lets talk about 2006 when he won a ring.


All I have to say is, give me Prime Payton over Prime Kobe to build around. Because I know Payton will keep my team competitive no matter what is around him. He won't get hurt either. And I'm not saying that, the actual results say that.

Kobe, 2005, enough said. Even if healthy, worse than Payton did with pure scrubs. And that's "if" healthy. Something Payton had to never worry about.

So you're gonna use the excuse of out of his prime but when we use Kobe was injured in 2006 it's not valid? I know you're being a shock poster but at least try to make sense. I'm done with you. Ignore list. 2006 was when he won the championship and he hardly contributed. All he did was bandwagon. Kobe had like two years where he played hurt. All other seasons he's been pretty healthy.

[GP_20]

By the way, only 2 other players can claim to never finished on a losing team in the NBA present. I mean players who are all-star caliber and have played at least 7 years.


Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal


Payton's work season in and season out belongs in some elite company.

[GP_20]

So you're gonna use the excuse of out of his prime but when we use Kobe was injured in 2006 it's not valid? I know you're being a shock poster but at least try to make sense. I'm done with you. Ignore list.
Kobe was injured in 2006? No dumbass that was 2005. :oldlol:


a) Payton is never injured. So that's a positive for him and negative for Kobe. We ignoring Payton's postives?

b) So you are saying out of prime is not legit? Jordan sucks he could't take his team to playoffs in Washington.

c) We proved that even with Kobe healthy, they miss playoffs and finish below .500. Thus, injuries are IRRELEVANT in this case.




So really with c, your argument is pathetic and done with

[catch24]

This message is hidden because GP_20 is on your ignore list. :confusedshrug:

Dude ruined my thread with pure rubbish. Thanks tool.

[GollyImSoGully]

I can't even put this clown on ignore. Stupid ISH features.



c) We proved that even with Kobe healthy, they miss playoffs and finish below .500. Thus, injuries are IRRELEVANT in this case.


How is that so if they were 6th place before the injuries took place?

[GP_20]

I can't even put this clown on ignore. Stupid ISH features.



How is that so if they were 6th place before the injuries took place?

Laker's record with Kobe: 28-38


Are we ignoring facts now lol?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan had better seasons in 1990, 1991, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1989, 1996 and 1987
Kareem had better seasons in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1977, 1978, 1979 and 1980
Shaq had better seasons in 2000, 2001, 2002, 1994 and 1995
Wilt had better seasons in 1960, 1962, 1966, 1967 and 1968
Bird had better seasons in 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988
Magic had better seasons in 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1990
Olajuwon had better seasons in 1993, 1994 and 1995
Duncan had better seasons in 2002 and 2003 Also 1964 for Chamberlain.

[GP_20]

And I still can't believe someone just said that saying a player was "out of prime" is not legit? :confusedshrug:

So I guess Jordan is not that good with what he did in the Wizards. Or Shaq really does suck look how he is playing.


I mean seriously Kobe fans, where do you guys leave your rationality?

[catch24]

Also 1964 for Chamberlain.


Kobe's 2006 rivals Magic's 88 season given Kobe had a higher TS% and just as high of effective field goal %. Kobe scored more points, had less turnovers, had more steals and shot a better 3PT percentage (though, given the attempts, it's a little skewed). Kobe's Player effiency rating was higher as well.

Abe, your take on this?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Abe, your take on this?
I have no clue. All the mathematical equations used in ranking NBA players result in a headache.

[GollyImSoGully]

Laker's record with Kobe: 28-38


Are we ignoring facts now lol?

Laker standing with everyone healthy before injuries = 6th place

Are we ignoring facts now lol?

Facts: Kobe has 4 rings, 1 as a leader, 3 as 2nd man putting up 25/5/5+ consistently in the championship years

Fact: Only times Payton got a ring was when he bandwagoned to get a ring. He's won once! Lost twice! Losing more in the Finals than winning is frown upon.

Fact: Payton is not a top 10 player

Fact: You're an idiot who is by himself in this debate

Fact: Payton couldn't hold Billups jockstrap in 2004 and let HIS MAN win Finals MVP.

Out of your prime is as legit as injured. Since you frown upon the injury argument, I'll frown upon your out of his prime.

[GP_20]

Laker standing with everyone healthy before injuries = 6th place

You know the season didn't end when Kobe 1st got injured. He came back later. Lakers just lost.

Lakers even with Butler, Kobe, and Odom playing, were below .500.


I would be embarrassed if a Payton-led team with a starcast that good was below .500 when they played. Payton with far inferior starcasts from 99-03 never finished on a losing team.


Once again, the actual results show that a Prime Payton could lead his team to more wins than a prime Kobe with not much to work with.

IT's not my opinion. It's a fact.

[catch24]

I have no clue. All the mathematical equations used in ranking NBA players result in a headache.

:ohwell:

[GollyImSoGully]

You know the season didn't end when Kobe 1st got injured. He came back later. Lakers just lost.

Lakers even with Butler, Kobe, and Odom playing, were below .500.


I would be embarrassed if a Payton-led team with a starcast that good was below .500 when they played. Payton with far inferior starcasts from 99-03 never finished on a losing team.


Once again, the actual results show that a Prime Payton could lead his team to more wins than a prime Kobe with not much to work with.

IT's not my opinion. It's a fact.

I just love how you ignored the rest of the post. Are you embarrassed that the only way Payton could ever win a ring was to play below 20 mpg and bandwagoning a team and becoming utterly useless? Are you embarrassed that Payton was the deciding factor in the 2004 loss by letting his man spray his man juice all over his face? I would be ASHAMED if my favorite player only won 1 ring and not win Finals MVP. At least have something to show for it.

[GP_20]

Out of your prime is as legit as injured. Since you frown upon the injury argument, I'll frown upon your out of his prime.
Your logic is just absurd.


Injuries is considered a positive/negative. If a player is injury prone, do you want him on your team or not over another player just as good that is healthy? No I don't want the injury prone player, and the same says every other sane NBA Fan.

Thus, Payton being durable is a plus for him.


However, EVERYONE drops going out of prime. Some quicker than others. Payton actually stayed in his prime all the way to age 33 which is pretty good. Walt Frazier and Isiah Thomas were retired at the age Payton was playing in the All-Star game.




So there is a fundamental difference between injuries and out of prime. Injuries depends on the player. Prime fall, happens to everyone.

[GP_20]

I just love how you ignored the rest of the post. Are you embarrassed that the only way Payton could ever win a ring was to play below 20 mpg and bandwagoning a team and becoming utterly useless? Are you embarrassed that Payton was the deciding factor in the 2004 loss by letting his man spray his man juice all over his face? I would be ASHAMED if my favorite player only won 1 ring and not win Finals MVP. At least have something to show for it.

Ok so the best you can give me is how Payton played bad out of prime.


I'm comparing their primes right now. Prime Kobe vs. Prime Payton.



And I already wrecked your injury argument. What's the excuse man? Why couldn't Kobe win his team more games? Not playing due to injury is thrown out.

Is he just not as good as Payton? :confusedshrug:

I think so. And so do the actual results.

[GollyImSoGully]

Still doesn't see explanation on why the only time Payton could ever sniff a ring was by bandwagoning which is pathetic.

Until then take the L.

[GP_20]

Alrite if the only thing Kobe fans can throw at Payton is how he played out of his prime, this debate is over.


I'm leaving the thread.



The arguments backed up with Logic and Reality/Actual Results
support

Payton > Kobe


That's good enough for me



Go ahead, tell me how bad he played out of his prime.

:oldlol:



This is how you sound


Kobe >>> Jordan
because Jordan missed playoffs with Wizards





At that point, the Jordan fans just leave shaking their head. "Out of Prime". Seriously? That's the best you got?




*Leave thread

[Duncan21formvp]

http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/KobeBryant02.jpg

Season: 35 PPG 45% FG 85% FT 34.7% 3PT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
Playoffs: 28 PPG 50% FG 77% FT 40% 3PT 6 rebounds 5 assists

Scoring Highs:

-62pts on 58% shooting
-81pts on 60% shooting
-50pts on 57% shooting (playoffs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm0C6OIUTVM (watch this video to see the stuff Kobe pulled off through out the season).

A few questions: Putting his season into perspective, where does it rank all time? Has anyone in history had to shoulder the load scoring, assisting/facilitating his teams offense like Kobe did this year? Has any player in league history ever had to carry worse teammates to the playoffs?

For me, personally, it's a top 10 season of all time, and one can make a case for it to be top 5 given the context of what kind "help" he had.

Kobe had less win shares than Shawn Marion that season.

[GollyImSoGully]

I'm leaving the thread.


People usually leave after getting destroyed.

Kobe in his prime led his team to the Finals two years in a row and won a championship.

Payton in his prime did what exactly?

Me - 1

You - 0

[catch24]

Kobe had less win shares than Shawn Marion that season.

According to Win Shares, Manu Ginobili was more important than Duncan in the 2005 post season (they won the Finals that year).

[Abraham Lincoln]

:ohwell:
http://i46.tinypic.com/lckrl.jpg

http://www.mutineermagazine.com/img/blog/magic_johnson_00.jpg

[Susie89]

http://www.p90xworkoutschedule.me/
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[catch24]

http://i46.tinypic.com/lckrl.jpg

http://www.mutineermagazine.com/img/blog/magic_johnson_00.jpg

Teams win championships :D

To me, Magic's '87 season was his most impressive.

[Dave3]

that's an awesome vidio! Kobe is definitely the best in the NBA, I don't see how anyone can think otherwise...
1. Appeal to emotion
2. Most people think otherwise.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Catch24, you still haven't told me which of the seasons from the players I listed you would take Kobe's 2006 over. There were ~30 seasons listed, if you'll recall, so please name at least 15 seasons for me to take you seriously. Here's the list again:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)

[Heilige]

Catch24, you still haven't told me which of the seasons from the players I listed you would take Kobe's 2006 over. There were ~30 seasons listed, if you'll recall, so please name at least 15 seasons for me to take you seriously. Here's the list again:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)


What do you consider Kobe's best season?

[catch24]

Catch24, you still haven't told me which of the seasons from the players I listed you would take Kobe's 2006 over. There were ~30 seasons listed, if you'll recall, so please name at least 15 seasons for me to take you seriously. Here's the list again:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)

The dude that lives through Jordan's life vicariously is talking about taking people serious? Wow.

Guess you missed this:


Kobe's 2006 rivals Magic's 88 season given Kobe had a higher TS% and just as high of effective field goal %. Kobe scored more points, had less turnovers, had more steals and shot a better 3PT percentage (though, given the attempts, it's a little skewed). Kobe's Player effiency rating was higher as well.

*EDIT* His season also rivals Larry Bird's '84 year:

Bird: 24ppg 49% FG 24% 3PT 88%FT 10 rebounds 6 assists and 1.8 steals
(PER 24.2 - 55%TS 49.7eFG%)

Kobe: 35 PPG 45% FG 34.7% 3PT 85% FT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
(PER 28.2 - 56%TS 49.1eFG%)

[Samurai Swoosh]

What do you consider Kobe's best season?
2002 / 2003 and 2005 / 2006

[OldSchoolBBall]

The dude that lives through Jordan's life vicariously is talking about taking people serious? Wow.

Guess you missed this:

I didn't miss it. You listed ONE season out of 30. For Kobe's season to be top 10 all-time, it would have to be better than 20 of those seasons (plus others which weren't listed). Well, let's hear it...

[GollyImSoGully]

Jordanlover and JordanForever23 is saying he can't take someone seriously? 30 years old and self pronounced Jordan lover.

[catch24]

Bird: 24ppg 49% FG 24% 3PT 88%FT 10 rebounds 6 assists and 1.8 steals
(PER 24.2 - 55%TS 49.7eFG%)

Kobe: 35 PPG 45% FG 34.7% 3PT 85% FT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
(PER 28.2 - 56%TS 49.1eFG%)

Kobe (lets say each assist is worth 2 points to be fair) assisted for 45 points (includes his ppg) while Bird assisted 36 points to his team.

Kobe was also the better perimeter defender, so he does have a likely case.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Bird: 24ppg 49% FG 24% 3PT 88%FT 10 rebounds 6 assists and 1.8 steals
(PER 24.2 - 55%TS 49.7eFG%)

Kobe: 35 PPG 45% FG 34.7% 3PT 85% FT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
(PER 28.2 - 56%TS 49.1eFG%)

Kobe (lets say each assist is worth 2 points to be fair) assisted for 45 points (includes his ppg) while Bird assisted 36 points to his team.

Kobe was also the better perimeter defender, so he does have a likely case.
Kobe was named all first team defense in 2006, correct?

[catch24]

I will not continue to do this. Kobe with the season he had individually and the cast of players he was surrounded with, to me, had a top 10 all time season. It's top of the decade on Yahoo and ESPN's 'best statistical season's. If you disagree, that's fine. The other season(s) you have mentioned were great as well.

[catch24]

Kobe was named all first team defense in 2006, correct?

Yeah, since 2002 he's been on the all first team defensively.

[Dave3]

I will not continue to do this. Kobe with the season he had individually and the cast of players he was surrounded with, to me, had a top 10 all time season. It's top of the decade on Yahoo and ESPN's 'best statistical season's. If you disagree, that's fine. The other season(s) you have mentioned were great as well.
Can you link those top 10 lists? Thanks in advance.

[catch24]

Can you link those top 10 lists? Thanks in advance.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-top-10-individual-statistical-seasons-of-the?urn=nba,191194

Thats Yahoo's. I'll have to look for ESPN.

[Abraham Lincoln]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-top-10-individual-statistical-seasons-of-the?urn=nba,191194

Thats Yahoo's. I'll have to look for ESPN.
2000's decade = all time?

[Dave3]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-top-10-individual-statistical-seasons-of-the?urn=nba,191194

Thats Yahoo's. I'll have to look for ESPN.
LeBron is number 1, not Kobe. That's the reason I asked, because I remember LeBron being 1...

[Cangri]

Yeah, since 2002 he's been on the all first team defensively.
Too bad that award is just a popularity contest nowadays. There are/were better perimeter defenders than Kobe. But like I said since
Kobe is the most popular one they give it to him.

[catch24]

2000's decade = all time?

I never said it was.

[catch24]

LeBron is number 1, not Kobe. That's the reason I asked, because I remember LeBron being 1...

Yeah when I said a top, I meant to say amongst the top 10. My fault.

[GollyImSoGully]

Too bad that award is just a popularity contest nowadays. There are/were better perimeter defenders than Kobe. But like I said since
Kobe is the most popular one they give it to him.

Keep crying. :rolleyes:

[Dave3]

Yeah when I said a top, I meant to say amongst the top 10. My fault.
Oh, no problem. But see, if it's not top 5 seasons in this decade, then it's pretty hard to be top 10 all time considering several of the players on that list haven't even been mentioned in this thread right?

[Cangri]

Keep crying. :rolleyes:
Just speaking the truth.

[catch24]

Too bad that award is just a popularity contest nowadays. There are/were better perimeter defenders than Kobe. But like I said since
Kobe is the most popular one they give it to him.

In 2006 though, it wasn't. His defense fundamentally was one of the best from the perimeter at his position.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Sorry, misread. I would appreciate it if you could list your top 10 seasons of all time, along with proper reasoning.

[Cangri]

In 2006 though, it wasn't. His defense fundamentally was one of the best from the perimeter at his position.
I can give him a couple of years maybe, but to say he's been the best defender every year since 2002 is just not true.

[catch24]

Oh, no problem. But see, if it's not top 5 seasons in this decade, then it's pretty hard to be top 10 all time considering several of the players on that list haven't even been mentioned in this thread right?

Well, it's all statistical production. Basically a Fantasy Player's best individual seasons of all time. In no way do I believe LeBron had a better season than a 2000 Shaq or a 2009 Dwyane Wade. Kobe, given the context of his team, should be top 5 there IMO. Stats aren't everything, and I definitely don't evaluate players solely on them.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Bird: 24ppg 49% FG 24% 3PT 88%FT 10 rebounds 6 assists and 1.8 steals
(PER 24.2 - 55%TS 49.7eFG%)

Kobe: 35 PPG 45% FG 34.7% 3PT 85% FT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
(PER 28.2 - 56%TS 49.1eFG%)

Kobe (lets say each assist is worth 2 points to be fair) assisted for 45 points (includes his ppg) while Bird assisted 36 points to his team.

Kobe was also the better perimeter defender, so he does have a likely case.

You have about 17 more seasons to go. Get to listing them...

[catch24]

Sorry, misread. I would appreciate it if you could list your top 10 seasons of all time, along with proper reasoning.

www.youtube.com/user/mayhem8z -- scroll down to the left -- they are in no particular order. I'm just saying, Kobe has a case for a top 10 all time season.

[catch24]

I can give him a couple of years maybe, but to say he's been the best defender every year since 2002 is just not true.

Yeah, last season Wade was snubbed for sure.

[catch24]

You have about 17 more seasons to go. Get to listing them...

Read my previous reply to you. Stop trolling.

[Dave3]

Well, it's all statistical production. Basically a Fantasy Player's best individual seasons of all time. In no way do I believe LeBron had a better season than a 2000 Shaq or a 2009 Dwyane Wade. Kobe, given the context of his team, should be top 5 there IMO. Stats aren't everything, and I definitely don't evaluate players solely on them.
Oh, so you're talking about season as overall, not just statistically? To be honest, in that case I think the same year LeBron had a year just as good. 31.4 ppg with 7 and 6 (something like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm too lazy to check) on 48% shooting, and led his team to 50 wins. Yeah his team was better than Kobe's but not that much. I think that was still the year where they had Jeff Mcinnis starting at point, Pavlovic at SG, and Gooden starting at the 4. Ilgauskus still had some mobility back then, but he's still comparable to Lamar for that year.

Finally, to address the conference discrepancy, the Cavs had a record against the West that put them on pace for 49 wins had they been a Western conference team, so it didn't do much actually.

[catch24]

Oh, so you're talking about season as overall, not just statistically? To be honest, in that case I think the same year LeBron had a year just as good. 31.4 ppg with 7 and 6 (something like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm too lazy to check) on 48% shooting, and led his team to 50 wins. Yeah his team was better than Kobe's but not that much. I think that was still the year where they had Jeff Mcinnis starting at point, Pavlovic at SG, and Gooden starting at the 4. Ilgauskus still had some mobility back then, but he's still comparable to Lamar for that year.

Finally, to address the conference discrepancy, the Cavs had a record against the West that put them on pace for 49 wins had they been a Western conference team, so it didn't do much actually.

Yup, the Yahoo site is pretty much just for fantasy as the title of the article shows. 2006 LeBron was a worthy candidate for MVP and could have definitely won it. Though, in my opinion, the Eastern conference from top to bottom was significantly weaker at that particular time. LeBron's teammates overall were better as well, this can be debated though. 49 win pace in the Western Conference is an estimation (not that I totally disagree with you), just saying. You'll really never know what could of happen given each team(s) play you differently and cause matchup issues.

BTW, LeBron's 2008-2009 season is a top 10 season of all time for me personally.

[Dave3]

Yup, the Yahoo site is pretty much just for fantasy as the title of the article shows. 2006 LeBron was a worthy candidate for MVP and could have definitely won it. Though, in my opinion, the act that Eastern conference from top to bottom was significantly weaker at that particular time. LeBron's teammates overall were better as well, this can be debated though. 49 win pace in the Western Conference is an estimation (not that I totally disagree with you), just saying. You'll really never know what could of happen given each team(s) play you differently and cause matchup issues.

BTW, LeBron's 2008-2009 season is a top 10 season of all time for me personally.
The Cavaliers roster was marginally better, not really significantly enough to account for a 5.0 game difference in the standings. LeBron contributed to just as many points as Kobe did if you count assists, and he added 7 rebounds. Doing all of this to get 50 wins is better than what Kobe did.

Also, you said Wade in 2009 was better than LeBron right? So you have LeBron, Wade, AND Kobe all in your top 10 seasons?

[Fatal9]

It's a shame recent injuries ruined Kobe's stats for this season. He was averaging 30/6/5 on 49% before he took the splint off (which made every shot short because his finger was too weak...and then the back spasms). He might get back up there once he gets healthy but I would still take current Kobe over any version, except maybe '06-'07.

He started off slow that year because he was coming back from knee surgery, but did he ever score in the second half of the season. For the last two months when he got the green light from Phil as injuries ruined the Laker season he had 40/6/5 and 34/6/6 on good efficiency :eek:. Today, he is still the only player to average 40+ ppg multiple times in a month other than Wilt. And no other player has averaged 40+ppg in a month in the last 40 years. People don't seem to get what a dominant scorer he was, especially at the end of '07 season when Kobe getting 50 every night was expected.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Read my previous reply to you. Stop trolling.

What did you say? That you're talking about the top 10 statistical seasons of all time? How are you measuring that, then? PER? Kobe's 2006 doesn't even crack the top 15, then.

[catch24]

The Cavaliers roster was marginally better, not really significantly enough to account for a 5.0 game difference in the standings. LeBron contributed to just as many points as Kobe did if you count assists, and he added 7 rebounds. Doing all of this to get 50 wins is better than what Kobe did.

Also, you said Wade in 2009 was better than LeBron right? So you have LeBron, Wade, AND Kobe all in your top 10 seasons?

Valid points, but again, to me Kobe's role players produced less and were less relevant for 82 games (post season included). I value Kobe's more given the conference, help they had, along with individual skill and intangibles (includes defense).

My personal top 10 list (www.youtube.com/user/mayhem8z):



Michael Jordan 1987-1988: 35ppg 53 fg% 5.5reb 6ast 3.2stl 1.6blk 3.1tov
Wilt Chamberlain 1961-1962: 50.4ppg 50 fg% 25.7reb 2.4ast
Larry Bird 1984-1985: 28ppg 52 fg% 10.5reb 6.6ast 1.6stl 1.2blk 3tov
Shaquille O'neal 1999-2000: 29.7ppg 57 fg% 13.6reb 3.8ast 0.5stl 3blk 2.8tov
Oscar Robertson 1961-1962: 30.8ppg 48 fg% 12.5reb 11.4ast
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1971-1972: 35ppg 57 fg% 16.6reb 4.6ast
Magic Johnson 1986-1987: 24ppg 52 fg% 6.3reb 12.2ast 1.7stl 0.5blk 3.8tov
Kevin Garnett 2003-2004: 24ppg 50 fg% 14reb 5ast 1.5stl 2.6blk 2.2tov
LeBron James 2008-2009: 28.4ppg 49 fg% 6.3reb 7.6ast 1.7stl 1.1blk 3tov
Dwyane Wade 2008-2009: 30ppg 49 fg% 5reb 7.5ast 2.2stls 1.3blk 3.4tov

There's my list. Kobe can be interchangeable with KG and Dwyane Wade. My OP says Kobe should be top 10....While I do think he should, it's arguable and right now this list is as concrete as it's going to get for me personally.

[catch24]

What did you say? That you're talking about the top 10 statistical seasons of all time? How are you measuring that, then? PER? Kobe's 2006 doesn't even crack the top 15, then.


I will not continue to do this. Kobe with the season he had individually and the cast of players he was surrounded with, to me, had a top 10 all time season. It's top of the decade on Yahoo and ESPN's 'best statistical season's. If you disagree, that's fine. The other season(s) you have mentioned were great as well.

It's a combination of everything: Skills, honors, help they attained, defenses/competition they saw, statistical production etc. Again, I will no longer entertain you. You have your opinion, I have mine.

[Dave3]

Valid points, but again, to me Kobe's role players produced less and were less relevant for 82 games (post season included). I value Kobe's more given the conference, help they had, along with skill and intangibles (includes defense).

My personal top 10 list (www.youtube.com/user/mayhem8z):



There's my list. Kobe can be interchangeable with KG and Dwyane Wade. My OP says Kobe should be top 10....While I do think he should, it's arguable and right now this list is as concrete as it's going to get for me personally.
Fair enough to the first part.

For the second part, if you think Kobe should be in the top 10, why don't you have him in your top 10? And why is he interchangeable with Wade but not LeBron when you think Wade had the better year last year?

[catch24]

Fair enough to the first part.

For the second part, if you think Kobe should be in the top 10, why don't you have him in your top 10? And why is he interchangeable with Wade but not LeBron when you think Wade had the better year last year?

LeBron's 2009 season would be included, I didn't add it in my post I guess. KG in 2004, Wade in 2009, and LeBron in 2009. I don't have him on my list because this was made about 3-4 weeks ago. I might or might not change it, as I said, at this point it's arguable. Maybe a 1A/1B can be obtained from this.

[catch24]

It's a shame recent injuries ruined Kobe's stats for this season. He was averaging 30/6/5 on 49% before he took the splint off (which made every shot short because his finger was too weak...and then the back spasms). He might get back up there once he gets healthy but I would still take current Kobe over any version, except maybe '06-'07.

He started off slow that year because he was coming back from knee surgery, but did he ever score in the second half of the season. For the last two months when he got the green light from Phil as injuries ruined the Laker season he had 40/6/5 and 34/6/6 on good efficiency :eek:. Today, he is still the only player to average 40+ ppg multiple times in a month other than Wilt. And no other player has averaged 40+ppg in a month in the last 40 years. People don't seem to get what a dominant scorer he was, especially at the end of '07 season when Kobe getting 50 every night was expected.

While we normally disagree, I agree with this. Seriously. Kobe's 2006 season was something that was :eek: for sure. 81pts and a 62pt game in 3 quarters? You kidding? Dude was a one man team that whole f'n season.

[Dave3]

LeBron's 2009 season would be included, I didn't add it in my post I guess. KG in 2004, Wade in 2009, and LeBron in 2009. I don't have him on my list because this was made about 3-4 weeks ago. I might or might not change it, as I said, at this point it's arguable. Maybe a 1A/1B can be obtained from this.
Nono, you did have LeBron on your list, just I thought you believed Wade's 09 was better than LeBron's 09, but then you said something different, so I'm confused about that.

[Fatal9]

LeBron's 2009 season would be included, I didn't add it in my post I guess. KG in 2004, Wade in 2009, and LeBron in 2009. I don't have him on my list because this was made about 3-4 weeks ago. I might or might not change it, as I said, at this point it's arguable. Maybe a 1A/1B can be obtained from this.
That four straight 50+ pt streak he had is one my favorite moments from his career. It wasn't even a random occurence either. Lakers came in losing 6 or 7 games and then Phil gave Kobe "the green light" (there was article that came out after the game vs. Portland iirc). He wanted Kobe to start shooting early and often, so Kobe drops 65, 50, 60, 50 on remarkable shooting percentages. Almost had 50 in the next game, but ended up with like 45. It's just incredible though that Phil ordered him to shoot and he averaged around 40 ppg for every game of the season after that. How many players have that ability? Jordan, Wilt and maybe Bird.

[catch24]

Nono, you did have LeBron on your list, just I thought you believed Wade's 09 was better than LeBron's 09, but then you said something different, so I'm confused about that.

To clear your confusion, I do believe Kobe (2006) was as good as 2004 KG, if not better. I do think Wade's 2009 season is better than LeBron's (2009), not by much, but better (he had a record in total assists, steals and blocks, something like that). I made my channel description a few weeks ago, and just today I was reflecting back on Kobe's 2006 season...It's a little hard to understand but Kobe has an arguable top 10 spot that's interchangeable with those 3 guys, at least to me. Whether or not I'll change my channel description is up in the air

[catch24]

That four straight 50+ pt streak he had is one my favorite moments from his career. It wasn't even a random occurence either. Lakers came in losing 6 or 7 games and then Phil gave Kobe "the green light" (there was article that came out after the game vs. Portland iirc). He wanted Kobe to start shooting early and often, so Kobe drops 65, 50, 60, 50 on remarkable shooting percentages. Almost had 50 in the next game, but ended up with like 45. It's just incredible though that Phil ordered him to shoot and he averaged around 40 ppg for every game of the season after that. How many players have that ability? Jordan, Wilt and maybe Bird.

http://www.seattlepi.com/basketball/309006_lakers26.html


"We held him to 43, by God," Warriors coach Don Nelson said.

"We did a good job. I think our defense was solid. We tried to make it hard for Kobe. What a great performance -- I can't imagine what he's been doing."

:oldlol: :bowdown:

[Jinxed]

This is the year 2010. We don't judge players by traditional box score stats (which only account for roughly 15% all the actions a player does on a basketball court)...and neither do NBA front offices...it's why half the league now pays 6 or 7 figures a year for people to figure out stats like ADJ. Plus/minus...which take into account EVERYTHING..like setting screens, floor spacing and oh yea...DEFENSE...


Kobe's traditional box score numbers look impressive for one reason and one reason only. He took a lot of shots. He was a ball hog. Now he did have a great season according to Adj +/-, win shares, PER and the other advanced metrics. But he certainly wasn't the best player in the league that year.

According to adj plus/minus (APM) he was the 4th best player in the league..

Win Shares the 4th and PER 3rd..This isn't all time, this was just that season. He's APM of +14 is great..but it was a far cry from the league leading LBJ who had an APM of +20 that year.

[Disaprine]

This is the year 2010. We don't judge players by traditional box score stats (which only account for roughly 15% all the actions a player does on a basketball court)...and neither do NBA front offices...it's why half the league now pays 6 or 7 figures a year for people to figure out stats like ADJ. Plus/minus...which take into account EVERYTHING..like setting screens, floor spacing and oh yea...DEFENSE...


Kobe's traditional box score numbers look impressive for one reason and one reason only. He took a lot of shots. He was a ball hog. Now he did have a great season according to Adj +/-, win shares, PER and the other advanced metrics. But he certainly wasn't the best player in the league that year.

According to adj plus/minus (APM) he was the 4th best player in the league..

Win Shares the 4th and PER 3rd..This isn't all time, this was just that season. He's APM of +14 is great..but it was a far cry from the league leading LBJ who had an APM of +20 that year.
:roll:

[Diesel J]

Lebron's 31 7 7 and his 30 8 7 both on 48 FG% are also better

[Samurai Swoosh]

Too bad that award is just a popularity contest nowadays. There are/were better perimeter defenders than Kobe. But like I said since
Kobe is the most popular one they give it to him.
Yet he's uber popular, but only has 1 MVP award? hmmmm

Bad argument.

Who votes for the defensive teams.

[Samurai Swoosh]

He started off slow that year because he was coming back from knee surgery, but did he ever score in the second half of the season. For the last two months when he got the green light from Phil as injuries ruined the Laker season he had 40/6/5 and 34/6/6 on good efficiency :eek:. Today, he is still the only player to average 40+ ppg multiple times in a month other than Wilt. And no other player has averaged 40+ppg in a month in the last 40 years. People don't seem to get what a dominant scorer he was, especially at the end of '07 season when Kobe getting 50 every night was expected.
You'd take Kobe in 06 - 07 over Kobe in 05 - 06?

[Jacks3]

Kobe's 06-07 season was better than his 05-06 season imo. He was by far the the most dominant scorer in the league that year. He put up 32 PPG on on a TS% of 58%! :bowdown: He also averaged 6 RPG and 5 APG. He averaged 37 PPG after the All-Star break. He had 10 50+ games (only Wilt has ever done that). He had 19 40+ games including averaging 41 PPG for the entire month of March. He had 4 straight 50+ games at one point. Crazy. :bowdown:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Kobe's 06-07 season was better than his 05-06 season imo. He was by far the the most dominant scorer in the league that year. He put up 32 PPG on on a TS% of 58%! :bowdown: He also averaged 6 RPG and 5 APG. He averaged 37 PPG after the All-Star break. He had 10 50+ games (only Wilt has ever done that). He had 19 40+ games including averaging 41 PPG for the entire month of March. He had 4 straight 50+ games at one point. Crazy. :bowdown:
Kobe wasn't the most dominant scorer in 2005 - 2006?

[Jacks3]

He was. But Kobe in 06-07 was even better.

[Samurai Swoosh]

He was. But Kobe in 06-07 was even better.
I don't think so ... I mean that 2nd half of the season was ridiculous, but Kobe did it for a whole season in 05 - 06. Kobe was still playing himself into shape for much of the start of that season. I mean they were both great scoring years, I think 2k6 gets the edge though, however.

[Jacks3]

That's cool.We'll agree to disagree.
:cheers:

[D.J.]

Kobe in 2005-06
Games played- 80
PPG- 35.4
40+ point games- 21(.263)
50+ point games- 6(.075)
Consecutive 40+ point games- 4(twice)
Consecutive 50+ point games- never
FG percentage- 45.0
3PT percentage- 34.7
FT percentage- 85.0
TS percentage- 55.9
eFG percentage- 49.1

Kobe in 2006-07
Games played- 77
PPG- 31.6
40+ point games- 18(.234)
50+ point games- 10(.129)
Consecutive 40+ point games- 5
Consecutive 50+ point games- 4
FG percentage- 46.3
3PT percentage- 34.4
FT percentage- 86.8
TS percentage- 58.0
eFG percentage- 50.2

[KAJ=GOAT]

MVP.

The majority of writers picked the Lakers to finish 11th or 12th in the western conference because the rest of the squad was so bummy in comparison to Kobe.

He puts up a monster season, takes his team to the playoffs,


but still gets slighted.

[AirJordan&Magic]

It's nowhere near a top 10 season all time. You're crazy imo. Short list of seasons that were better:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)

There might be others too. And this is being pretty generous, as some of those guys had other seasons better than Kobe's 2006 as well. Even if you cut those seasons in HALF, Kobe's '06 still doesn't make the top 10 individual seasons of all time. If we start factoring in team success/accolades, it drops even farther. I was just talking individual level of play above.

Please stop being delusional.......anyone that seriously thinks that that was not at least a top 15 season all time is either a fool or doesn't appreciate Kobe's game. period.

There were definitely seasons that were better than Kobe's 2005-06 season, but dont sit here and say stupid crap like "nowhere near top 10".

[Jacks3]

Kobe in 2005-06
Games played- 80
PPG- 35.4
40+ point games- 21(.263)
50+ point games- 6(.075)
Consecutive 40+ point games- 4(twice)
Consecutive 50+ point games- never
FG percentage- 45.0
3PT percentage- 34.7
FT percentage- 85.0
TS percentage- 55.9
eFG percentage- 49.1

Kobe in 2006-07
Games played- 77
PPG- 31.6
40+ point games- 18(.234)
50+ point games- 10(.129)
Consecutive 40+ point games- 5
Consecutive 50+ point games- 4
FG percentage- 46.3
3PT percentage- 34.4
FT percentage- 86.8
TS percentage- 58.0
eFG percentage- 50.2
Kobe had 27 40+ games in 2006 not 21.

[plowking]

1. Appeal to emotion
2. Most people think otherwise.

Most people still think Kobe is the best, even after ridiculous amounts more money spent on a certain player in media and advertising.

[D.J.]

Kobe had 27 40+ games in 2006 not 21.


That's right. I misread it.

[plowking]

Lebron's 31 7 7 and his 30 8 7 both on 48 FG% are also better

No... just no.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Please stop being delusional.......anyone that seriously thinks that that was not at least a top 15 season all time is either a fool or doesn't appreciate Kobe's game. period.

There were definitely seasons that were better than Kobe's 2005-06 season, but dont sit here and say stupid crap like "nowhere near top 10".

Again, please name me at least 15 seasons from the list I posted which Kobe's 2006 is better than. Thanks. Virtually ANY of those Wilt/KAJ/MJ seasons are automatic, and that's at least 13+ seasons right there.

[Dave3]

Most people still think Kobe is the best, even after ridiculous amounts more money spent on a certain player in media and advertising.
Over the last 2 days I've seen 3 of the biggest Lakers/Kobe fans say "LeBron is without question the best in the game" - yes, they said without question or "undoubtedly" or something to that extent.

I know for a fact that one was LA_Showtime, and another was Jacks3, but I forget who the 3rd is. If Laker/Kobe fans are going to be admitting it, it pretty much means most of everyone else will probably think it too.

Edit: Right on cue, from Jacks3 like 3 minutes ago: "Any person who thinks Kobe>LBJ right now is delusional. LeBron is playing at GOAT-candidate level right now." in the Kobe vs. LeBron thread.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Again, please name me at least 15 seasons from the list I posted which Kobe's 2006 is better than. Thanks. Virtually ANY of those Wilt/KAJ/MJ seasons are automatic, and that's at least 13+ seasons right there.

If you were going to pick multiple seasons, then it is completely obvious that Wilt and Kareem would occupy the top 12 spots, with Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 season and probably Baylor's 38/17 season as well. Then otherwise your comment is pointless because you saying Kobe's 2005-06 season is not close, you are saying that for many other greats seasons are not close.

Do you think its fair knowing Wilt, Kareem, and Oscar would most likely occupy those top spots? I'm not even sure if any of Mj's seasons except for maybe his 1986-87 season and 32.5/8/8 season would be that close.

[OldSchoolBBall]

If you were going to pick multiple seasons, then it is completely obvious that Wilt and Kareem would occupy the top 12 spots, with Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 season and probably Baylor's 38/17 season as well. Then otherwise your comment is pointless because you saying Kobe's 2005-06 season is not close, you are saying that for many other greats seasons are not close.

Do you think its fair knowing Wilt, Kareem, and Oscar would most likely occupy those top spots? I'm not even sure if any of Mj's seasons except for maybe his 1986-87 season and 32.5/8/8 season would be that close.

Actually, several of Jordan's seasons would be in the top 10-15 list (at least a few from '87-'93). Kobe's season simply isn't one of the 15 best single seasons of all time. Has nothing to do with what's "fair" - it is what it is. Had his season been good enough, he would have made the cut.

[Dave3]

Actually, several of Jordan's seasons would be in the top 10-15 list (at least a few from '87-'93). Kobe's season simply isn't one of the 15 best single seasons of all time. Has nothing to do with what's "fair" - it is what it is. Had his season been good enough, he would have made the cut.
How about you make a list of your top 15 seasons one by one including the complete stats for each one so the argument can more specific than "yes it's top 10" and "no it isn't"?

[Jacks3]

Kobe's 05-06 season is one of the top 25 ever. That makes one of the greatest seasons ever.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Kobe's 05-06 season is one of the top 25 ever. That makes one of the greatest seasons ever.

This is a much more reasonable claim, and though I disagree (the 31 seasons I listed earlier are all better imo), I wouldn't object too strenuously. Top 10 ever is a joke of a claim, however.

[Abraham Lincoln]

www.youtube.com/user/mayhem8z -- scroll down to the left -- they are in no particular order. I'm just saying, Kobe has a case for a top 10 all time season.
I don't see Kobe on his list. Do you also believe one of Allen Iverson's non-playoff seasons is a top 10 ever?

Same year:

Allen: 33.0 ppg, 7.4 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.9 spg, 45% FG
Kobe: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, 45% FG




The fact is if not for most of the infants on this board becoming Kobe (and possibly NBA) fans that year in addition to the magnificent 81 point game, that season wouldn't be nearly as highly ranked as it is by some.

All must cease the overdependence on statistics & mathematical evaluation. 2006 is Kobe's 5th best season behind his 2008, 2009, 2003, & 2001 seasons. He was great that year, but it's not the best ball he's played.


The proper top 10 ranks in no order.

'62 Chamberlain
'67 Chamberlain
'62 Russell
'63 Russell
'91 Jordan
'92 Jordan
'71 Alcindor
'74 Abdul-Jabbar
'00 O'Neal
'01 O'Neal

[G-train]

I realise that you mentioned in no order - but do you agree that Chamberlain's '67 season was far greater than his '62 season?
He played winning basketball in '67 for probably the first time ever.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I realise that you mentioned in no order - but Chamberlain's '67 season was far greater than his '62 season.
He played winning basketball in '67 for probably the first time ever.
Agree?
Yes indeed. 1967 may very well be the top season in NBA history. But in 1962 his Philadelphia Warriors were a bullcrap goaltending call away from defeating the Celtics, and likely winning the title against the Lakers. The only thing Wilt did was do what management and coaches told him. He lacked a killer instinct forthe majority of his career, but was indeed a good listener and follower, despite what the press back then as well as today might say. Not only did he play for 7 different coaches his first 11 seasons, he also suffered from failing to live up to the massive and unrealistic expectations set forth by the press. Statistics aside, '62 was indeed a magificent year for Wilt. However I would have substituted it for '64 if not for the humiliation in the Finals against Boston.

[hwliuLAP]

who gives a sh!t, the man will easily go down as a top 10 player ever if he wins more rings, and if not, top 20 easily, EASILY.

so whether the argument about this season is being the top of (however many seasons you want to believe), he's still easily one of the best ever. And to argue that one of his best season isn't up in comparison because by number, you're just being Hollinger at this point. Everyone who watched that season knew how much he dominated. The guy won games by himself over and over again, he brought home W's just like the way he's doing it this year. Who cares if it's over 40% when you win.

He's not the most efficient player, but he'll go down as one of the best closer. There has been years, where players and coaches has said that they'd choose to let Kobe take the last shot of the game. He showed it in the Olympics, and he showed it in the last final.

He's a closer, and that's what he does, finish the games for a team, steps up when the pressure settles in, and if you have a problem calling that great, I'm not sure what to say to you.

[Jacks3]

Well, when you have to use the absolute best seasons of the 5-7 best players in history to keep Kobe out of the top 10...it's not exactly insulting. :pimp:

[Cangri]

Well, when you have to use the absolute best seasons of the 5-7 best players in history to keep Kobe out of the top 10...it's not exactly insulting. :pimp:
It's not, but Kobe fans are really insecure.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Kobe in 2002-2003 was at his best. 05-06 and 08-89 come a close 2nd and 3rd. These 3 season was better than Jordan ever was. and better than Lebron ever was his first 7 seasons in the league.


http://thestartingfive.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/kobe_bryant_biography.jpg

I think Kobe Bryant is the greatest TALENT ever to touch a basketball. He was even getting the better of Jordan in many many plays as 19 year old kid.

[Dresta]

Wade's 08/09 season was better then Kobe's 05/06, so were several of Lebron's.

[The_Yearning]

Kobe didn't avg 5 assist a game in 05-06.

[catch24]

I don't see Kobe on his list. Do you also believe one of Allen Iverson's non-playoff seasons is a top 10 ever?

Same year:

Allen: 33.0 ppg, 7.4 apg, 3.2 rpg, 1.9 spg, 45% FG
Kobe: 35.4 ppg, 4.5 apg, 5.3 rpg, 1.8 spg, 45% FG

No, I don't because KB was a better all around basketball player -- more clutch, skilled, less help than what Iverson had, and played much better defense than A.I did. This isn't a statistical debate, I'm putting his season into context.


The fact is if not for most of the infants on this board becoming Kobe (and possibly NBA) fans that year in addition to the magnificent 81 point game, that season wouldn't be nearly as highly ranked as it is by some.

Please get off your high horse. Even without the 81pt game, his season was very impressive, and to be honest, I don't see how his fan base would change if at all had that game never existed.


All must cease the overdependence on statistics & mathematical evaluation. 2006 is Kobe's 5th best season behind his 2008, 2009, 2003, & 2001 seasons. He was great that year, but it's not the best ball he's played.

I totally disagree. Because Kobe made 2-3 more attempts isn't cutting it for me. He was a better overall basketball player in 2008 and on, but again, it isn't JUST statistical output. When you look at the cast he was surrounded with, then factor just how deep the Western Conference was, you'd appreciate what he did as a basketball fan. A one man show is plausible to say, for me at least.


'62 Chamberlain
'67 Chamberlain
'62 Russell
'63 Russell
'91 Jordan
'92 Jordan
'71 Alcindor
'74 Abdul-Jabbar
'00 O'Neal
'01 O'Neal

My list contains no more than ONE season for each player. That way everyone gets a fair assessment.

[catch24]

If you were going to pick multiple seasons, then it is completely obvious that Wilt and Kareem would occupy the top 12 spots, with Oscar Robertson's 1961-62 season and probably Baylor's 38/17 season as well. Then otherwise your comment is pointless because you saying Kobe's 2005-06 season is not close, you are saying that for many other greats seasons are not close.

Yup, that's why when you look at my list (posted a few pages back) it only has one player and only one season from them. I think that's fair.


How about you make a list of your top 15 seasons one by one including the complete stats for each one so the argument can more specific than "yes it's top 10" and "no it isn't"?

This would be amusing. You'll see Jordan's name on 70% of the list.

[drza44]

One man's opinion on the best "Solo Missions" of the 2000s, describing superstar players carrying extremely sub-par supporting casts. The article considers individual stats, team record, and supporting casts. Kobe's '06 ranks third in the 2000s, right there with Wade's '09 and McGrady's '03 and behind Garnett's '03.

http://rotosynthesis.rotowire.com/Best-Solo-Missions-of-Decade-Kobe-Wade-TMac-KG-BBD1615.htm

[Samurai Swoosh]

Wade's 08/09 season was better then Kobe's 05/06, so were several of Lebron's.
Hmmm, I can see that argued

[Dizzle-2k7]

Wades 09 was nice but even he didnt **** on teams the way Kobe did in 05.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Wades 09 was nice but even he didnt **** on teams the way Kobe did in 05.
Yeah he did ...

[Dizzle-2k7]

Yeah he did ...


So Wade dropped a string of 50 pt games and 40pt games even when entire defenses KNEW it was coming? I musta missed that :confusedshrug:

[GollyImSoGully]

Yeah he did ...

Dude....no he didn't.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Dude....no he didn't.
He averaged 30 ppg for the year, that qualifies as ****ting on people in my book

[GollyImSoGully]

He averaged 30 ppg for the year, that qualifies as ****ting on people in my book

Yup, but wasn't nowhere near Kobe's 2005 season.

[lefthook00]

It comes down to shot selection. Kobe was putting up those numbers on a RIDICULOUSLY lousy shot selection, which is why that season was so cool. Double teamed, falling out of bounds, wayyy behind the line swishing 3's. Cold blooded.

[lbj23clutch]

Kobe in 2002-2003 was at his best. 05-06 and 08-09 come a close 2nd and 3rd. These 3 season was better than Jordan ever was. and better than Lebron ever was his first 7 seasons in the league.


http://thestartingfive.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/kobe_bryant_biography.jpg

I think Kobe Bryant is the greatest TALENT ever to touch a basketball. He was even getting the better of Jordan in many many plays as 19 year old kid.
:roll:


Some of Jordan's season better then any of those years off the top of my head, based on season production, playoff production, accomplishments in that particular year, and the impact on team play.


86-87'
Regular Season numbers: 37.1/5.2/5 3 SPG 1.5 BPG 48.2% shooting
Playoff numbers: 35.7/7/6 2 SPG 2 BPG 40% from 3.

Finished 2nd in MVP, 2nd in offensive win shares and 4th in defensive win shares.

87-88'
Regular Season numbers: 35/5.5/5.9 3.2 SPG 1.6 BPG 54% shooting
Playoff numbers: 36.3/7.1/4.7 2.4 SPG 1.1 BPG 53.1% shooting

Jordan also won the DPOY, MVP, All Star game MVP and for the second straight season he was the only perimeter player to have at least 200 steals and 100 blocks. Also finished 1st in offensive win shares and 3rd in defensive win shares.

88-89'
Regular Season numbers: 32.5/8/8 3 SPG 54% shooting.
Playoff Numbers: 34.8/7/7.6 2 SPG 51% shooting.

Finished 2nd in MVP, 1st in offensive win shares, and 2nd in defensive win shares.

90-91'
Regular Season numbers: 31.5/6/5.5 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 54% shooting.
Playoff numbers: 31.1/6.4/8.4 2.3 SPG 1.3 BPG 52.4% shooting.

Jordan won the MVP for the regular season and lead his team to his 1st championship, putting up 31.2 points on 56% shooting, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks in the finals against Magic's Lakers on route to his first NBA Finals MVP Award. He would also once again lead the league in offensive win shares, and finish 5th in the league in defensive win shares.



Again these are just a couple of seasons to name that are better or at least equal to Kobe's 05-06 season, based on allaround production in the regular season and in the playoffs, and the overall impact on team play. I'm too lazy to name more seasons that I think are better or at least comparable to Kobe's 05-06 season. For example I left out MJ's 2 other championship years during his 1st 3 peat, the 91-92' and 92-93' season, which were both better then the 05-06 season, in terms of accomplishments and overall impact in both the playoffs and regular season.




Don't get me wrong, Kobe's 05-06' year was an alltime great season, but it's extremely laughable to say, that season was better then any of Jordan's seasons. But For the record, I would rank that 05-06 season in my top 15 of alltime seasons.

[Diesel J]

No... just no.


yes, every statistical measuremnt I've seen of those season of Kobe's compared to the ones I mentioned of lebron's put's Lebron's ahead of Kobe's. FACT

31 7 7 and 30 8 7 > Kobe

Lebron's 28 8 7 of last year ranks in all time eff seasons and I didn't even bring it up:pimp:

[Diesel J]

Kobe in 2002-2003 was at his best. 05-06 and 08-89 come a close 2nd and 3rd. These 3 season was better than Jordan ever was. and better than Lebron ever was his first 7 seasons in the league.




:roll: :roll:

[GollyImSoGully]

Lebron group!es and their statistics....

I guess that's all they have considering they support a 7 year veteran with no championship rings.

[Diesel J]

Lebron group!es and their statistics....

I guess that's all they have considering they support a 7 year veteran with no championship rings.


You mad? Lets see how many rinsg could would have w/o Shaq and Gasol (Gasol and Bynum were the ones who slowed down Dwight in the Finals and allowed enable Kobe to win a ring with a another 42-43 Fg% again in the Finals):violin:

[macpierce]

and the team with the best record last year couldnt advance to the finals............your point is?????

[Diesel J]

and the team with the best record last year couldnt advance to the finals............your point is?????

They got beatsed by dwight...that's not Lebron's fault, that's why they got Shaq for:lol Lets' put Big Z on last years Lakers team and give the Cavs Gasol/Bynum and let's see who would have won the title:pimp:

[LA_Showtime]

:roll:


Some of Jordan's season better then any of those years off the top of my head, based on season production, playoff production, accomplishments in that particular year, and the impact on team play.


86-87'
Regular Season numbers: 37.1/5.2/5 3 SPG 1.5 BPG 48.2% shooting
Playoff numbers: 35.7/7/6 2 SPG 2 BPG 40% from 3.

Finished 2nd in MVP, 2nd in offensive win shares and 4th in defensive win shares.

87-88'
Regular Season numbers: 35/5.5/5.9 3.2 SPG 1.6 BPG 54% shooting
Playoff numbers: 36.3/7.1/4.7 2.4 SPG 1.1 BPG 53.1% shooting

Jordan also won the DPOY, MVP, All Star game MVP and for the second straight season he was the only perimeter player to have at least 200 steals and 100 blocks. Also finished 1st in offensive win shares and 3rd in defensive win shares.

88-89'
Regular Season numbers: 32.5/8/8 3 SPG 54% shooting.
Playoff Numbers: 34.8/7/7.6 2 SPG 51% shooting.

Finished 2nd in MVP, 1st in offensive win shares, and 2nd in defensive win shares.

90-91'
Regular Season numbers: 31.5/6/5.5 2.7 SPG 1 BPG 54% shooting.
Playoff numbers: 31.1/6.4/8.4 2.3 SPG 1.3 BPG 52.4% shooting.

Jordan won the MVP for the regular season and lead his team to his 1st championship, putting up 31.2 points on 56% shooting, 11.4 assists, 6.6 rebounds, 2.8 steals and 1.4 blocks in the finals against Magic's Lakers on route to his first NBA Finals MVP Award. He would also once again lead the league in offensive win shares, and finish 5th in the league in defensive win shares.



Again these are just a couple of seasons to name that are better or at least equal to Kobe's 05-06 season, based on allaround production in the regular season and in the playoffs, and the overall impact on team play. I'm too lazy to name more seasons that I think are better or at least comparable to Kobe's 05-06 season. For example I left out MJ's 2 other championship years during his 1st 3 peat, the 91-92' and 92-93' season, which were both better then the 05-06 season, in terms of accomplishments and overall impact in both the playoffs and regular season.




Don't get me wrong, Kobe's 05-06' year was an alltime great season, but it's extremely laughable to say, that season was better then any of Jordan's seasons. But For the record, I would rank that 05-06 season in my top 15 of alltime seasons.


:oldlol: Those were off the top of your head? You're a ****ing machine!

[Diesel J]

for the record, those were great seasons for Kobe Im just saying though...

[LA_Showtime]

It comes down to shot selection. Kobe was putting up those numbers on a RIDICULOUSLY lousy shot selection, which is why that season was so cool. Double teamed, falling out of bounds, wayyy behind the line swishing 3's. Cold blooded.

It also represents all of his flaws and why in my book he will never reach his true potential. Creating for others simply doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't seem to try and improve that aspect of his game.

[lbj23clutch]

:oldlol: Those were off the top of your head? You're a ****ing machine!
Yup Im a human calculator. :lol

[lbj23clutch]

It also represents all of his flaws and why in my book he will never reach his true potential. Creating for others simply doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't seem to try and improve that aspect of his game.
:applause:

[D.J.]

It also represents all of his flaws and why in my book he will never reach his true potential. Creating for others simply doesn't come naturally to him and he doesn't seem to try and improve that aspect of his game.


When he wants to, he can. He has averaged six assists per game before and is regularly around five. Kobe is a pure scorer, something LeBron is not. He is also a great mid-range shooter and when his three point shot is on, he's unstoppable. LeBron's scoring often comes from attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line. His shooting has improved, but he's still streaky in that aspect.

[Diesel J]

When he wants to, he can. He has averaged six assists per game before and is regularly around five. Kobe is a pure scorer, something LeBron is not. He is also a great mid-range shooter and when his three point shot is on, he's unstoppable. LeBron's scoring often comes from attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line. His shooting has improved, but he's still streaky in that aspect.


Kobe = volume scorer when he's not hot.

[GollyImSoGully]

They got beatsed by dwight...that's not Lebron's fault, that's why they got Shaq for:lol Lets' put Big Z on last years Lakers team and give the Cavs Gasol/Bynum and let's see who would have won the title:pimp:

You Kobe haters are funny. First it's Kobe can't win without Shaq and he proves you guys wrong and now it's Kobe can't win without Pau. Give Lebron Fisher and see how well he does. I'm sure Kobe wouldn't mind having a starting PG thats an all star.

[Diesel J]

You Kobe haters are funny. First it's Kobe can't win without Shaq and he proves you guys wrong and now it's Kobe can't win without Pau. Give Lebron Fisher and see how well he does. I'm sure Kobe wouldn't mind having a starting PG thats an all star.

Fisher saved the Lakers azz in the Finals vs Orlando, I guess KObe jockers don't remember that though:lol Mo Williams was shooting bricks all playoffs last season though.

Fact it, the reason the lakers won the title with Kobe chucking and shooting 43FG% again in the Finals was because dwight couldn't create havoc with Bynum and Gasol keeping him in check:pimp:

[lilgodfather1]

When he wants to, he can. He has averaged six assists per game before and is regularly around five. Kobe is a pure scorer, something LeBron is not. He is also a great mid-range shooter and when his three point shot is on, he's unstoppable. LeBron's scoring often comes from attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line. His shooting has improved, but he's still streaky in that aspect.
I wouldn't call Kobe a pure scorer. I would call him a chucker. LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe and that is a fact (last three years LeBron has scored more PPG). Kobe may be able to score in more ways (depatable this year though) but LeBron is still more effective at scoring the ball and still gets more points.

BTW you can say that when ones three point shot is on they are unstoppable. well no duh, when LeBrons, Wades, Melos, Durants, etc, etc, etc 3 point shots are on they are unstoppable to. That comes with being one of the greatest talents in the leauge. You get into a zone that few can reach.

[GollyImSoGully]

Fisher saved the Lakers azz in the Finals vs Orlando, I guess KObe jockers don't remember that though:lol Mo Williams was shooting bricks all playoffs last season though.

Fact it, the reason the lakers won the title with Kobe chucking and shooting 43FG% again in the Finals was because dwight couldn't create havoc with Bynum and Gasol keeping him in check:pimp:

Fisher was horrible in the finals. Reason we were even close to the Magic in that game was because Fisher was 0-7 before the 3 he took to tie it. Horrible performance and two shots won't erase what a terrible season and playoffs he had and won't erase the disgusting season he's having this year. Bynum kept Dwight in check? He hardly played. Like I said, have fun with those stats while I actually support a winner.

Your child: Dad, why do you think LeBron was a better player than Kobe?

You: Well, despite Lebron not having any rings and Kobe having 5(or 6), he had better stats throughout the board. That's what matters. Championships come second.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

I leave you with this video

[Diesel J]

Fisher was horrible in the finals. Reason we were even close to the Magic in that game was because Fisher was 0-7 before the 3 he took to tie it. Horrible performance and two shots won't erase what a terrible season and playoffs he had and won't erase the disgusting season he's having this year.

Fisher saved the Lakers, are you denying it?




Bynum kept Dwight in check? He hardly played. Like I said, have fun with those stats while I actually support a winner.

I said Bynum and Gasol kept dwight in check. This is FACT


Your child: Dad, why do you think LeBron was a better player than Kobe?

You: Well, despite Lebron not having any rings and Kobe having 5(or 6), he had better stats throughout the board. That's what matters. Championships come second.

KObe won 3 titles playing second fiddle to the most unstoppable force ever in the NBA. Check Shaq's numbers in those Finals and then look at Kobe's, nuff said:pimp:

Kobe should thank god everyday the Lakers were gift wrapped Gasol:applause:

[DTD]

Loserville in this thread, with the same usual suspects posting the same tired crap. Man, it must really suck to be you, with Kobe eating away at your mind and encompassing your negative thoughts every damn second of your pathetic lives. :oldlol:

[GollyImSoGully]

Fisher saved the Lakers, are you denying it?



Denying what? Fisher owed that to us after his horrible performance in that game.


I said Bynum and Gasol kept dwight in check. This is FACT

Right that's what won us the series. Dwight had lower than his season averages in two games out of 5. Wouldn't say keeping him in check.


KObe won 3 titles playing second fiddle to the most unstoppable force ever in the NBA. Check Shaq's numbers in those Finals and then look at Kobe's, nuff said

Kobe was just there along for the ride putting up 25/5/5 riiiight?

Keep it coming. The tears that are running down your cheeks is a beautiful sight. Worry about LeBrick winning a Finals game let alone a championship. We have to start out small for you guys. 7 years and still no ring. Ughhh.Lebron should thank GOD everyday the Bucks giftwrapped an all star PG in Mo Williams for garbage like Damon Jones and Joe Smith. At least Memphis got something of value they can use like Gasol who's putting up 15/10 and a lot of cap space. Yup you mad.

[D.J.]

I wouldn't call Kobe a pure scorer. I would call him a chucker.

Kobe is averaging a few more shot attempts than LeBron right now, but in the last two years, they have been around the same. Allen Iverson in Philadelphia was a chucker. Kobe is no where near that.



LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe and that is a fact (last three years LeBron has scored more PPG).

Total rubbish. Scoring more points per game does not make one a better scorer. LeBron controls the ball more than Kobe. He is also attacks the hoop more. Kobe is more versatile and can score in more ways.



Kobe may be able to score in more ways (depatable this year though) but LeBron is still more effective at scoring the ball and still gets more points.

LeBron is still a streaker shooter, though not as streaky as years past. Still, he's currently only averaging an extra point over Kobe. One thing we have learned is if LeBron cannot attack the hoop, his outside shooting cannot be relied on. Kobe is still better in that aspect. So honestly, is LeBron really more effective? Or is he simply benefitting from using his size to attack te hoop and score on higher percentage shots?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Kobe has 4 rings. Yall forget? :oldlol:

[GollyImSoGully]

lmao @ saying Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. Smack yourself in the head with a metal pole.

[lilgodfather1]

Kobe is averaging a few more shot attempts than LeBron right now, but in the last two years, they have been around the same. Allen Iverson in Philadelphia was a chucker. Kobe is no where near that.



2.7 more SPG to be exact, aka 221 shots more in the season for a total of 65 points less than LeBron.

Total rubbish. Scoring more points per game does not make one a better scorer. LeBron controls the ball more than Kobe. He is also attacks the hoop more. Kobe is more versatile and can score in more ways.

Than what would make you a better scorer? Is it scoring less points, but having more ways to score them? No that is having a better arsonal not being a better scorer. Face it Kobe hasn't been a better scorer than LeBron for going on three years now. And the fact that you say LeBron isn't versatile should scare the chocolate out of you stans. He can only get points in a couple of ways, well imagine when he is 27 and in his prime and has added more parts to his game.


LeBron is still a streaker shooter, though not as streaky as years past. Still, he's currently only averaging an extra point over Kobe. One thing we have learned is if LeBron cannot attack the hoop, his outside shooting cannot be relied on. Kobe is still better in that aspect. So honestly, is LeBron really more effective? Or is he simply benefitting from using his size to attack te hoop and score on higher percentage shots?

LeBron is smarter than Kobe because he will take what the defense gives him. He won't chuck if his shot isn't falling he will pass. That is why his scoring percentage is higher

[lilgodfather1]

lmao @ saying Lebron is a better scorer than Kobe. Smack yourself in the head with a metal pole.
Prove that Kobe is a better scorer. Is it because he shoots a higher percentage from 3, is it because he shoots better from the feild, is it because he scores more points, is it because he takes less shots, is it the combination of all of those things? Oh **** wait hang on a second LeBron leads Kobe in all of those things.

[Dresta]

Wades 09 was nice but even he didnt **** on teams the way Kobe did in 05.Yes he did, he averaged 33/8 50+% shooting after the all star break last year. And dominated both ends of the court.

Look at this streak of games:
Points/Assists/Boards/Blocks/Steals - FG%

37/12/1/3 - 55%
25/9/4/3/2 - 57%
50/5/5/1/1 - 57%
31/16/7/0/0 - 55%
21/10/2/1/3 - 53%
46/10/8/4/4 - 55%
35/16/6/1/1 - 62%
42/8/6/1/1 - 74%
25/12/8/0/4 - 40%
48/12/6/3/4 - 71%
32/7/4/0/4 - 45%
50/9/10/2/4 - 49%

Kobe has never put together a streak of games this dominant and efficient. Wade's 08/09 season was comfortably superior to Kobe's 05/06.

[Abraham Lincoln]

This isn't a statistical debate, I'm putting his season into context.
Impressive, but no first round exit season can be declared a top 10.


and to be honest, I don't see how his fan base would change if at all had that game never existed. :lol




I totally disagree. Because Kobe made 2-3 more attempts isn't cutting it for me. He was a better overall basketball player in 2008 and on, but again, it isn't JUST statistical output. When you look at the cast he was surrounded with, then factor just how deep the Western Conference was, you'd appreciate what he did as a basketball fan. A one man show is plausible to say, for me at least. Again, impressive indeed, but not top 10. For there have been numerous stars throughout history that have had spectacular regular seasons and went home in the first round.




My list contains no more than ONE season for each player. That way everyone gets a fair assessment.
'71 Alcindor
'67 Chamberlain
'62 Russell
'00 O'Neal
'91 Jordan
'87 Johnson
'86 Bird
'83 Malone
'76 Erving
'77 Walton
'75 Barry
'94 Olajuwon
'64 Robertson
'09 Bryant
'03 Duncan

and so on..

[GollyImSoGully]

Wade's 08/09 season was comfortably superior to Kobe's 05/06.

Ahhh good joke. Actually nah, it wasn't funny troll.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Wade's 08/09 season was comfortably superior to Kobe's 05/06.

I wouldn't go that far.

[All Net]

Prove that Kobe is a better scorer. Is it because he shoots a higher percentage from 3, is it because he shoots better from the feild, is it because he scores more points, is it because he takes less shots, is it the combination of all of those things? Oh **** wait hang on a second LeBron leads Kobe in all of those things.

It depends how you view the better scorer and how he gets his points and how quickly he could score when needed. I think they are both GREAT scorers and will leave it at that. I personally would rather have Kobe if you just wanted to score alot of points as he gets his points quickly when he is on fire.

There really is no reason for Lebron not to average more points than Kobe considering that Kobe has guys like Gasol, Bynum, Odom and now Artest who can score the ball.

[madmax]

It depends how you view the better scorer and how he gets his points and how quickly he could score when needed. I think they are both GREAT scorers and will leave it at that. I personally would rather have Kobe if you just wanted to score alot of points as he gets his points quickly when he is on fire.

There really is no reason for Lebron not to average more points than Kobe considering that Kobe has guys like Gasol, Bynum, Odom and now Artest who can score the ball.
and yet Kobe still feels chucking the ball like crazy at times though:roll: Usually smart offensive players make good use of their talented teammates and shoot better FG% due to better shot selection, but it's not a case for Kobe apparently:confusedshrug: Care to elaborate on this point?

[RaceBannana]

damn.... the suns can

[Jacks3]

Kobe's 06-07 and 05-06 were better seasons scoring wise than LBJ has ever had.

[All Net]

and yet Kobe still feels chucking the ball like crazy at times though:roll: Usually smart offensive players make good use of their talented teammates and shoot better FG% due to better shot selection, but it's not a case for Kobe apparently:confusedshrug: Care to elaborate on this point?

Which Kobe has this season, Kobe was shooting close to 50% before his injury problems. Kobe had to do too much even with those scoring options as his cast were struggling when Pau was missing. With Pau back, Kobe won't have to do as much most of the time.

Kobe needs to get his ass back playing in the post more, he was unstoppable down there when he started scoring there.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Actually, several of Jordan's seasons would be in the top 10-15 list (at least a few from '87-'93). Kobe's season simply isn't one of the 15 best single seasons of all time. Has nothing to do with what's "fair" - it is what it is. Had his season been good enough, he would have made the cut.

:rolleyes: Which ones?....It isn''t what it is.....stop being biased.

If you are claiming "several seasons" by players. Then Wilt & Kareem occupy at least the top 12, with Oscar's triple double season and Elgin Baylor's 38/17 season. Maybe Mj's 32.5/8/8 season.

Seriously, instead of talking...name the top 15 seasons of all time.

[LA_Showtime]

When he wants to, he can. He has averaged six assists per game before and is regularly around five. Kobe is a pure scorer, something LeBron is not. He is also a great mid-range shooter and when his three point shot is on, he's unstoppable. LeBron's scoring often comes from attacking the hoop and getting to the foul line. His shooting has improved, but he's still streaky in that aspect.

Yes, but for a player of Kobe's stature "when he wants to be" is not good enough. Simply put, there are still days Kobe Bryant comes out with the attitude of "I'm going to shoot a lot" which is something he should have outgrown by now. Any Laker will agree Kobe occasionally doesn't play the right way. Disappointing, but something I can stand because he brings so much more to the table.

[LA_Showtime]

LeBron is smarter than Kobe because he will take what the defense gives him. He won't chuck if his shot isn't falling he will pass. That is why his scoring percentage is higher

Actually, LeBron's shooting percentage is higher because he can get into the lane at will. He's arguably the best finisher of all time. LeBron AND Kobe both have 3-6 shots per night that are questionable. I know you've seen LeBron's heat checks... you can't deny it. :oldlol:

[Dresta]

Which Kobe has this season, Kobe was shooting close to 50% before his injury problems. Kobe had to do too much even with those scoring options as his cast were struggling when Pau was missing. With Pau back, Kobe won't have to do as much most of the time.

Kobe needs to get his ass back playing in the post more, he was unstoppable down there when he started scoring there.
Seriously you need to shut up about injury problems, everyone gets them, Wade has had a bad wrist on his shooting hand for ages now, yet you don't see everyone giving him the same slack as Kobe gets. Players get injured, you can't just discount whatever stats they might put up whilst playing with small injuries.

And it was Kobe struggling, not his supporting cast.

[LA_Showtime]

Seriously you need to shut up about injury problems, everyone gets them, Wade has had a bad wrist on his shooting hand for ages now, yet you don't see everyone giving him the same slack as Kobe gets. Players get injured, you can't just discount whatever stats they might put up whilst playing with small injuries.

And it was Kobe struggling, not his supporting cast.

Since when does an injured wrist = 3 messed up fingers (2 if you think the pinky is broken) and a bad back?

[Dresta]

He shouldn't be playing if its that bad. Anyway a wrist injury on your shooting hand is much worse then a finger injury on your shooting hand.

[All Net]

Seriously you need to shut up about injury problems, everyone gets them, Wade has had a bad wrist on his shooting hand for ages now, yet you don't see everyone giving him the same slack as Kobe gets. Players get injured, you can't just discount whatever stats they might put up whilst playing with small injuries.

And it was Kobe struggling, not his supporting cast.

You sure about that? when Gasol was out the supporting cast couldn't hit anything. The bench was piss poor. They have improved a good deal lately and been playing well.

Kobe should sit for a few but he won't, he will get his rest in between games and the all-star break. It's when his hand gets hit is when it is being made worse.

Main reason for his struggles last game was due to not practising for two days according to jax.

[killuminati187]

Oh, so you're talking about season as overall, not just statistically? To be honest, in that case I think the same year LeBron had a year just as good. 31.4 ppg with 7 and 6 (something like that, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm too lazy to check) on 48% shooting, and led his team to 50 wins. Yeah his team was better than Kobe's but not that much. I think that was still the year where they had Jeff Mcinnis starting at point, Pavlovic at SG, and Gooden starting at the 4. Ilgauskus still had some mobility back then, but he's still comparable to Lamar for that year.

Finally, to address the conference discrepancy, the Cavs had a record against the West that put them on pace for 49 wins had they been a Western conference team, so it didn't do much actually.


lebron plays in the east this decaded alone the 2001 76ers 2002 and 2003 new jersy nets and 2007 cavaliers made it to the finals none where elite teams and had a combined record of 3-12 including the nets and cavs getting swept

the point is 50 games in the east this decade or atleast since 2007 is 39 wins out west

[amfirst]

Kobe was at his best 05-06 too bad his teammates suck real bad or else his stats would be much better.

[Dave3]

Something interesting people might not be aware of - in this season, Kobe's scoring output wasn't only a result of high FGA, but it was actually his ridiculous accuracy from range. That year he shot 44% from midrange. That's an incredible rate to shoot from midrange.

[Younggrease]

Kobe was at his best 05-06 too bad his teammates suck real bad or else his stats would be much better.

too bad he got that knee surgery....we never got to see Kobe with his prime athletism as the man with a decent supporting cast.

[NBASTATMAN]

It's a shame recent injuries ruined Kobe's stats for this season. He was averaging 30/6/5 on 49% before he took the splint off (which made every shot short because his finger was too weak...and then the back spasms). He might get back up there once he gets healthy but I would still take current Kobe over any version, except maybe '06-'07.

He started off slow that year because he was coming back from knee surgery, but did he ever score in the second half of the season. For the last two months when he got the green light from Phil as injuries ruined the Laker season he had 40/6/5 and 34/6/6 on good efficiency :eek:. Today, he is still the only player to average 40+ ppg multiple times in a month other than Wilt. And no other player has averaged 40+ppg in a month in the last 40 years. People don't seem to get what a dominant scorer he was, especially at the end of '07 season when Kobe getting 50 every night was expected.


He was a dominant scorer.One of the best scoring sprees ever.... But you gotta admit he never reached those heights in the playoffs.. Even though he played the Suns... If Mj had played the Suns team that Kobe got to play in the 2006 playoffs he would have avg 50 plus... That Suns team didn't have a player over 6ft 8 inches tall... Amare and kurt were hurt that year...

[elganator]

The 40 ppg in a month avg is really incredible. I don't know when we will ever see that happen again.

[TryToBeUnbias]

too bad he got that knee surgery....we never got to see Kobe with his prime athletism as the man with a decent supporting cast.
yep, never was the same afterward

[jstern]

The 45% FG pretty much ruins it.

I prefer his playoff 50% 28ppg over his season average 45% 35ppg.

[MaxFly]

I also kind of find it sad Kobe missed the playoffs in 2005. Payton has had far worse players to work with, but he never finished on a losing team. Kobe's team won a pathetic 35 games that year. Payton would never allow that, and he never did, despite having far worse players.

Payton > Bryant?

[AirJordan&Magic]

I wouldn't call Kobe a pure scorer. I would call him a chucker. LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe and that is a fact (last three years LeBron has scored more PPG). Kobe may be able to score in more ways (depatable this year though) but LeBron is still more effective at scoring the ball and still gets more points.

BTW you can say that when ones three point shot is on they are unstoppable. well no duh, when LeBrons, Wades, Melos, Durants, etc, etc, etc 3 point shots are on they are unstoppable to. That comes with being one of the greatest talents in the leauge. You get into a zone that few can reach.

If Kobe can score the ball in more ways, why are you debating who the better scorer is?....LeBron is not a better scorer PERIOD......LeBron is better at finishing and taking it to the rim.

[jlauber]

Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting, in a league that averaged 97 ppg on .454 shooting. I won't claim MJ's 86-87 season as his best, but it was his highest scoring season. That year he averaged 37.1 ppg on .482 shooting, in a league that averaged 110 ppg on .480 shooting.

Wilt's 50.4 ppg season, on .506 shooting, came in a league that averaged 119 ppg on .426 shooting.

Clearly, in terms of pure scoring, Kobe's 05-06 season is near the very top in NBA history.

[ShaqAttack3234]

too bad he got that knee surgery....we never got to see Kobe with his prime athletism as the man with a decent supporting cast.

I'd say Kobe was even more athletic up through 2003 than he was in 2006.


Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg on .450 shooting, in a league that averaged 97 ppg on .454 shooting. I won't claim MJ's 86-87 season as his best, but it was his highest scoring season. That year he averaged 37.1 ppg on .482 shooting, in a league that averaged 110 ppg on .480 shooting.

Wilt's 50.4 ppg season, on .506 shooting, came in a league that averaged 119 ppg on .426 shooting.

Clearly, in terms of pure scoring, Kobe's 05-06 season is near the very top in NBA history.

In terms of pure scoring, I have 1987 Jordan over 2006 Kobe, but I also have 1988 Jordan and 1990 Jordan over 2006 Kobe as well. Not sure how to rank Wilt's 50 ppg season in comparison.

[jlauber]

I'd say Kobe was even more athletic up through 2003 than he was in 2006.



In terms of pure scoring, I have 1987 Jordan over 2006 Kobe, but I also have 1988 Jordan and 1990 Jordan over 2006 Kobe as well. Not sure how to rank Wilt's 50 ppg season in comparison.

I think MJ's 87-88 season was his best... 35.0 ppg on .535 shooting, in a league that averaged 108 ppg on .480 shooting.

As far as comparison...Wilt's 61-62 stands head-and-shoulders above every season in NBA history...especially in a league that shot .426 .

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think MJ's 87-88 season was his best... 35.0 ppg on .535 shooting, in a league that averaged 108 ppg on .480 shooting.

As far as comparison...Wilt's 61-62 stands head-and-shoulders above every season in NBA history...especially in a league that shot .426 .

Except Wilt got an insane 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA due to pace and the minutes he was allowed to play.

[jlauber]

Except Wilt got an insane 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA due to pace and the minutes he was allowed to play.

The league averaged 119 ppg on .426. MJ's 86-87 season was in a league that averaged 110 on .480 shooting. There is simply no doubt that Chamberlain's 61-62 season was THE greatest SCORING season in NBA history. Kobe's 05-06 is probably 2nd or third (Wilt's 62-63 season at 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting, in a league that averaged 115 ppg on .441 shooting, is probably 2nd.)

[ShaqAttack3234]

The league averaged 119 ppg on .426. MJ's 86-87 season was in a league that averaged 110 on .480 shooting. There is simply no doubt that Chamberlain's 61-62 season was THE greatest SCORING season in NBA history. Kobe's 05-06 is probably 2nd or third (Wilt's 62-63 season at 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting, in a league that averaged 115 ppg on .441 shooting, is probably 2nd.)

Yes there is doubt because no footage of Wilt during that season exists and no player had the oppurtunity to shoot anywhere near that many times.

39.5 shots per game and 17 free throws per. He was using about 48 possessions to score 50.4 ppg.

By the way, in 1987 Jordan was more efficient than Kobe in 2006 and it was tougher to get to the foul line. 2006 was the season where almost every star perimeter players FTA were way up.

When Jordan averaged 37, no other player even averaged 30. When Kobe averaged 35, two other players averaged 30. 2006 was the easiest season for perimeter players to score that I've ever seen.

1987 Jordan was a better scorer than 2006 Kobe and 1988 and 1990 Jordan were both better scorers than 1987 Jordan.

[jlauber]

Yes there is doubt because no footage of Wilt during that season exists and no player had the oppurtunity to shoot anywhere near that many times.

39.5 shots per game and 17 free throws per. He was using about 48 possessions to score 50.4 ppg.

By the way, in 1987 Jordan was more efficient than Kobe in 2006 and it was tougher to get to the foul line. 2006 was the season where almost every star perimeter players FTA were way up.

When Jordan averaged 37, no other player even averaged 30. When Kobe averaged 35, two other players averaged 30. 2006 was the easiest season for perimeter players to score that I've ever seen.

1987 Jordan was a better scorer than 2006 Kobe and 1988 and 1990 Jordan were both better scorers than 1987 Jordan.

Shaq,

I agree that Jordan's 88 season was better than his '87 season. BUT, you have to take league FG% into account in any of these discussions. MJ's 87 season, with .482 shooting, in a league that averaged .480, is not considerably better than Kobe's 450 shooting in a league that shot .454.

MJ led the league by 8 ppg in 87. Wilt led the NBA by nearly 19 ppg in 62 (some will argue Baylor's 38 ppg...but that was a part-time season.)

"Yes there is doubt because no footage of Wilt during that season exists and no player had the oppurtunity to shoot anywhere near that many times."

There IS footage of Wilt throughout his career...here is just ONE example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Let's see something from Dwight Howard that comes close....

[Fatal9]

I still marvel at how anyone can think 37 ppg in '88 is more impressive than 35 ppg in '06, especially when efficiency wise the scoring is similar. Watch a stretch of regular season games...please...the game was extremely open. The opportunities to get semi-transition open jumpers were endless, the entire freaking league was shooting near 50%. There have been Jordan games and Bird games where I've had to stop watching because the defense was that bad, no one wants to watch target practice. I mean most people usually see the playoff games, but watch a 5-6 game stretch of regular season games. You will see the same touch fouls that you see today, the same "star treatment", though players would milk for fouls less. I wouldn't say this if I didn't believe it, my favorite player ever is from that era.

I don't think player efficiencies would decline that much but probably around 2-4% depending on the player style (even respected MJ fans on this site have admitted this). The idea that it is easier to get to the rim now as opposed to back then is also false. If you had a quick first step, you were basically getting to the rim at will...watch a Kiki V, Bernard King, Dantley game, all of them were insane scorers because of this (like 30 ppg on 55%...you REALLY think they are achieving that in today's league?). As you transitioned into the mid 90s the Pistons style of play gained influence and the game became tighter, more half court defense oriented. That btw is another reason people hated the Pistons...everyone thought they were bad for basketball because everyone preferred offensive oriented, open style basketball.


I agree that Jordan's 88 season was better than his '87 season. BUT, you have to take league FG% into account in any of these discussions. MJ's 87 season, with .482 shooting, in a league that averaged .480, is not considerably better than Kobe's 450 shooting in a league that shot .454.
Also remember Kobe took more threes which yields more points per shot.

[jlauber]

I still marvel at how anyone can think 37 ppg in '88 is more impressive than 35 ppg in '06, especially when efficiency wise the scoring is similar. Watch a stretch of regular season games...please...the game was extremely open. The opportunities to get semi-transition open jumpers were endless, the entire freaking league was shooting near 50%. There have been Jordan games and Bird games where I've had to stop watching because the defense was that bad, no one wants to watch target practice. I mean most people usually see the playoff games, but watch a 5-6 game stretch of regular season games. You will see the same touch fouls that you see today, the same "star treatment", though players would milk for fouls less. I wouldn't say this if I didn't believe it, my favorite player ever is from that era.

I don't think player efficiencies would decline that much but probably around 2-4% depending on the player style (even respected MJ fans on this site have admitted this). The idea that it is easier to get to the rim now as opposed to back then is also false. If you had a quick first step, you were basically getting to the rim at will...watch a Kiki V, Bernard King, Dantley game, all of them were insane scorers because of this (like 30 ppg on 55%...you REALLY think they are achieving that in today's league?). As you transitioned into the mid 90s the Pistons style of play gained influence and the game became tighter, more half court defense oriented. That btw is another reason people hated the Pistons...everyone thought they were bad for basketball because everyone preferred offensive oriented, open style basketball.


Also remember Kobe took more threes which yields more points per shot.

Great post, as always.

About Kobe's 3pt attempts...it also reduced his overall FG%.

[lefthook00]

I don't care if this season isn't in the top 10. It was one of the most aesthetic, beautiful showcases of basketball talent ever. Styles of beyond. All you haters secretly watch and study youtube videos of Kobe murdering people.

I know you ain't talkin' about me dog, YOU?!! What??! You've been on my d*ck n*gga you LOVE MY STYLE n*gga.
(I) F*ck you your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's Son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already.

[B-Easy]

The thing about that season is that Stern and the NBA were clearly looking to increase scoring. Numbers were inflated.

AI scored 33ppg, and did it efficiently..it was by far his best scoring season...and he was 31 years old and not as good as he was in the early 2000s.

Lebron...guy put up 31ppg, his career high to this day and he wasnt as complete a scorer as he is now.

pierce, dirk, arenas, etc.. too many people having career years.

[jlauber]

The thing about that season is that Stern and the NBA were clearly looking to increase scoring. Numbers were inflated.

AI scored 33ppg, and did it efficiently..it was by far his best scoring season...and he was 31 years old and not as good as he was in the early 2000s.

Lebron...guy put up 31ppg, his career high to this day and he wasnt as complete a scorer as he is now.

pierce, dirk, arenas, etc.. too many people having career years.

The league average was 97 ppg, and the league FG% was at .454.

[B-Easy]

As crazy as it sounds because of the hype, Lebron was actually underrated that year....

31-7-7-48fg% at the age of 22.
Cavs won 50 games with Z, Gooden, Hughes, D. Jones, and Snow.

31-10-10 in his 1st Career Playoff Game..
2 game winners vs. Was in the 1st round..
He averaged 35-6-7 vs. Washington

Wade and Lebron had the 2 best seasons that year actually, i gotta include playoffs when judging a player.

[Dave3]

As crazy as it sounds because of the hype, Lebron was actually underrated that year....

31-7-7-48fg% at the age of 22.
Cavs won 50 games with Z, Gooden, Hughes, D. Jones, and Snow.

31-10-10 in his 1st Career Playoff Game..
2 game winners vs. Was in the 1st round..
He averaged 35-6-7 vs. Washington

Wade and Lebron had the 2 best seasons that year actually, i gotta include playoffs when judging a player.
Hate to be that guy, but age was 21 for LeBron.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Gawd that Kobe was so F@#@#@#@#@#@#@#in exciting.

I mean the Kobe now is still amazing, but some of those highlights back then you just don't see frequently in his game today. Those clutch one handed dunks were sick, as was that 360.

Those crossovers J's are a beeeeauuttyyyy.

I'm still years away, but i'm still gonna say it, gonna miss u Kobe when you retire.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The league average was 97 ppg, and the league FG% was at .454.

Too bad individual scoring has nothing to do with team scoring.

[juju151111]

The league average was 97 ppg, and the league FG% was at .454.
Why do you keep saying league vg??? What does that have to do with people scoring more?? Are you saying Stern didn't make rules after 04-05 finals to increase scoring for guards??

[Da_Realist]

I still marvel at how anyone can think 37 ppg in '88 is more impressive than 35 ppg in '06, especially when efficiency wise the scoring is similar. Watch a stretch of regular season games...please...the game was extremely open. The opportunities to get semi-transition open jumpers were endless, the entire freaking league was shooting near 50%. There have been Jordan games and Bird games where I've had to stop watching because the defense was that bad, no one wants to watch target practice. I mean most people usually see the playoff games, but watch a 5-6 game stretch of regular season games. You will see the same touch fouls that you see today, the same "star treatment", though players would milk for fouls less. I wouldn't say this if I didn't believe it, my favorite player ever is from that era.

I don't think player efficiencies would decline that much but probably around 2-4% depending on the player style (even respected MJ fans on this site have admitted this). The idea that it is easier to get to the rim now as opposed to back then is also false. If you had a quick first step, you were basically getting to the rim at will...watch a Kiki V, Bernard King, Dantley game, all of them were insane scorers because of this (like 30 ppg on 55%...you REALLY think they are achieving that in today's league?). As you transitioned into the mid 90s the Pistons style of play gained influence and the game became tighter, more half court defense oriented. That btw is another reason people hated the Pistons...everyone thought they were bad for basketball because everyone preferred offensive oriented, open style basketball.


Also remember Kobe took more threes which yields more points per shot.

:roll: We know who your favorite player is. And it ain't Larry Bird. GTFO

[eliteballer]

Just remember one thing...

Kobe played that entire year on a knee that needed to be surgically repaired in the offseason. Had to be warmed up for 40 min before every game. He could barely dunk for most of the year.

He would have averaged near 40 if he was healthy.

[fubu05]

http://blogs.reuters.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/KobeBryant02.jpg

Season: 35 PPG 45% FG 85% FT 34.7% 3PT 5 rebounds 5 assists 1.8 steals
Playoffs: 28 PPG 50% FG 77% FT 40% 3PT 6 rebounds 5 assists

Scoring Highs:

-62pts on 58% shooting
-81pts on 60% shooting
-50pts on 57% shooting (playoffs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm0C6OIUTVM (watch this video to see the stuff Kobe pulled off through out the season).

A few questions: Putting his season into perspective, where does it rank all time? Has anyone in history had to shoulder the load scoring, assisting/facilitating his teams offense like Kobe did this year? Has any player in league history ever had to carry worse teammates to the playoffs?

For me, personally, it's a top 10 season of all time, and one can make a case for it to be top 5 given the context of what kind "help" he had.

Meh, I don't think it is top 10 tbh. Those numbers are nice, but the thing is, Kobe had a horrible supporting cast. The thing is Lebron is having about 3.5 more assists, so lebron was technically responsible for 7 to 10.5 more points per game. But Kobe scored about 5 more ppg, so lebron was actually responsible for about 2 to 5.5 more ppg than kobe. All that being said, lebron also is pulling down more boards, and doing all this on a 60+ win team, while in 2005-2006 the lakers went 45-37. Lebron also had a higher FG%. I just don't think it could be a top 10 season when he was pretty much the only guy taking shots on the team, and the team's record wasn't too great.

Also : Kobe averaged about 27 shots per game, Lebron right now is averaging about 20 shots per game.

Kobe shoots about 6.5 3's per game, and Lebron right now about 5.2 threes per game

It's just too many shots by Kobe to consider it a top 10 season.

[DuMa]

Just remember one thing...

Kobe played that entire year on a knee that needed to be surgically repaired in the offseason. Had to be warmed up for 40 min before every game. He could barely dunk for most of the year.

He would have averaged near 40 if he was healthy.

just another excuse

[TryToBeUnbias]

just another excuse
:rolleyes:

[Diesel J]

ehh, Lebron's season was better than same year. Kobe shot the ball 27 times a game that season.

[LAClipsFan33]

Just remember one thing...

Kobe played that entire year on a knee that needed to be surgically repaired in the offseason. Had to be warmed up for 40 min before every game. He could barely dunk for most of the year.

He would have averaged near 40 if he was healthy.

C'mon son...Get the f*ck out of here with that bullsh*t

[Duncan21formvp]

It's nowhere near a top 10 season all time. You're crazy imo. Short list of seasons that were better:

Wilt's '62-'67 (6 seasons)
KAJ's '72-'78 (7 seasons)
Jordan's '87-'93 (7 seasons)
Bird's '84-'88 (5 seasons)
Magic's '87-'90 (4 seasons)
Shaq's '00-'02 (3 seasons)
Hakeem's '93-'95 (3 seasons)
Duncan's '03 (1 season)

There might be others too. And this is being pretty generous, as some of those guys had other seasons better than Kobe's 2006 as well. Even if you cut those seasons in HALF, Kobe's '06 still doesn't make the top 10 individual seasons of all time. If we start factoring in team success/accolades, it drops even farther. I was just talking individual level of play above.

I'd add in Kareem's 1979 season as well along with MJ's 1996 season and Shaq's 1998 season.

[Bigsmoke]

2006 was such a great year.

Kobe scoring 81
Dirk and Nash were impressive
Iverson and Pierce were on fire
Lebron and D-Wade turned into elite superstars
Pistons were aiming for the Bulls 96 season

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq,

I agree that Jordan's 88 season was better than his '87 season. BUT, you have to take league FG% into account in any of these discussions. MJ's 87 season, with .482 shooting, in a league that averaged .480, is not considerably better than Kobe's 450 shooting in a league that shot .454.

MJ led the league by 8 ppg in 87. Wilt led the NBA by nearly 19 ppg in 62 (some will argue Baylor's 38 ppg...but that was a part-time season.)

"Yes there is doubt because no footage of Wilt during that season exists and no player had the oppurtunity to shoot anywhere near that many times."

There IS footage of Wilt throughout his career...here is just ONE example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Let's see something from Dwight Howard that comes close....


I still marvel at how anyone can think 37 ppg in '88 is more impressive than 35 ppg in '06, especially when efficiency wise the scoring is similar. Watch a stretch of regular season games...please...the game was extremely open. The opportunities to get semi-transition open jumpers were endless, the entire freaking league was shooting near 50%. There have been Jordan games and Bird games where I've had to stop watching because the defense was that bad, no one wants to watch target practice. I mean most people usually see the playoff games, but watch a 5-6 game stretch of regular season games. You will see the same touch fouls that you see today, the same "star treatment", though players would milk for fouls less. I wouldn't say this if I didn't believe it, my favorite player ever is from that era.

I don't think player efficiencies would decline that much but probably around 2-4% depending on the player style (even respected MJ fans on this site have admitted this). The idea that it is easier to get to the rim now as opposed to back then is also false. If you had a quick first step, you were basically getting to the rim at will...watch a Kiki V, Bernard King, Dantley game, all of them were insane scorers because of this (like 30 ppg on 55%...you REALLY think they are achieving that in today's league?). As you transitioned into the mid 90s the Pistons style of play gained influence and the game became tighter, more half court defense oriented. That btw is another reason people hated the Pistons...everyone thought they were bad for basketball because everyone preferred offensive oriented, open style basketball.

You guys want to talk about how league FG%? That dropped by 2006 because of far less interior scoring as well as more 3 point attempts.

Look at how many times star perimeter players were getting trips to the line in 2006, it was a joke. Kobe averaged 35, yes, but Iverson averaged 33, Lebron averaged over 31, Arenas averaged over 29.

Iverson took the same amount of shots he did in 2001 when he was at his peak(actually 0.2 less), yet he ended up with 1.4 FTA than that season when he was even quicker and more explosive, plus his FG% was up from 42% o 45% and his assists were up from about 4 and a half to about 7 and a half.

Paul Pierce also got to the line much easier in 2006 than he did in his other 25+ ppg seasons. These aren't just random player comparisons, these are the same players, except older less athletic versions in 2006. Hell, the Iverson comparison is just absurd and perfectly illustrates my point. Just look at the ridiculous stats perimeter players were putting up in 2006.

It has never been easier for perimeter players to score than 2006. 1987 Jordan not only scored more than Kobe, but he was more efficient in just about everything, FG%, TS%, PPS, ect. And 1988 Jordan and 1990 Jordan were MUCH more efficient and averaged 35 and 33.6 ppg, respectively.

And regarding Wilt the highlights of Wilt. Yes, highlights exist, but there's no game footage available from 1962, the year in question. And with all due respect to Wilt, I've never seen any footage that suggested he had a better post game(as far as scoring) than Shaq or Kareem(or even equal for that matter). I think that Wilt is underrated as a defender and passer, but I fail to see how he blows everyone else away as a scorer.

[catch24]

Excellent post Diesel.

[jlauber]

You guys want to talk about how league FG%? That dropped by 2006 because of far less interior scoring as well as more 3 point attempts.

Look at how many times star perimeter players were getting trips to the line in 2006, it was a joke. Kobe averaged 35, yes, but Iverson averaged 33, Lebron averaged over 31, Arenas averaged over 29.

Iverson took the same amount of shots he did in 2001 when he was at his peak(actually 0.2 less), yet he ended up with 1.4 FTA than that season when he was even quicker and more explosive, plus his FG% was up from 42% o 45% and his assists were up from about 4 and a half to about 7 and a half.

Paul Pierce also got to the line much easier in 2006 than he did in his other 25+ ppg seasons. These aren't just random player comparisons, these are the same players, except older less athletic versions in 2006. Hell, the Iverson comparison is just absurd and perfectly illustrates my point. Just look at the ridiculous stats perimeter players were putting up in 2006.

It has never been easier for perimeter players to score than 2006. 1987 Jordan not only scored more than Kobe, but he was more efficient in just about everything, FG%, TS%, PPS, ect. And 1988 Jordan and 1990 Jordan were MUCH more efficient and averaged 35 and 33.6 ppg, respectively.

And regarding Wilt the highlights of Wilt. Yes, highlights exist, but there's no game footage available from 1962, the year in question. And with all due respect to Wilt, I've never seen any footage that suggested he had a better post game(as far as scoring) than Shaq or Kareem(or even equal for that matter). I think that Wilt is underrated as a defender and passer, but I fail to see how he blows everyone else away as a scorer.

Shaq,

I could come back with another long post on this...particularly Wilt...but I think I have already covered it. There IS footage of Wilt out there...making 15+ bank shots, or 15+ ft jump shots, or sweeping hook shots from 10+ ft, or spinning finger rolls with either hand, or leading a fast break, and finishing it with a no-look, behind-the-back pass.

And, as I have stated MANY times, Wilt, in 1961-62, was nowhere near the complete force that he would become in the mid 60's. IMHO, he could easily have averaged 40 ppg over much of his career.

BUT, I appreciate your posts...and I respect them. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Diesel J]

You guys want to talk about how league FG%? That dropped by 2006 because of far less interior scoring as well as more 3 point attempts.

Look at how many times star perimeter players were getting trips to the line in 2006, it was a joke. Kobe averaged 35, yes, but Iverson averaged 33, Lebron averaged over 31, Arenas averaged over 29.

Iverson took the same amount of shots he did in 2001 when he was at his peak(actually 0.2 less), yet he ended up with 1.4 FTA than that season when he was even quicker and more explosive, plus his FG% was up from 42% o 45% and his assists were up from about 4 and a half to about 7 and a half.

Paul Pierce also got to the line much easier in 2006 than he did in his other 25+ ppg seasons. These aren't just random player comparisons, these are the same players, except older less athletic versions in 2006. Hell, the Iverson comparison is just absurd and perfectly illustrates my point. Just look at the ridiculous stats perimeter players were putting up in 2006.

It has never been easier for perimeter players to score than 2006. 1987 Jordan not only scored more than Kobe, but he was more efficient in just about everything, FG%, TS%, PPS, ect. And 1988 Jordan and 1990 Jordan were MUCH more efficient and averaged 35 and 33.6 ppg, respectively.



Great post

[magnax1]

2006 Kobe has a good arguement for bets season of the 00's. The only two I think of in a similar range are 00 Shaq and 04 KG. Id probably take Shaq though.

[Jacks3]

07-08 Kobe>05-06 Kobe. Truth.

[Stoney]

By the way, only 2 other players can claim to never finished on a losing team in the NBA present. I mean players who are all-star caliber and have played at least 7 years.


Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal


Payton's work season in and season out belongs in some elite company.

I guess Stockton and Malone should be added to that list too