Kareem vs. Walton (1977 WCF)

[Roundball_Rock]

There is a common perception on this board that "Walton outplayed Kareem." Is this true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQzI9uf5g&feature=related

Edit: the whole game is available. Search "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the videos will come up. There are 12 parts.

Game 4 is the only game I could find online from that series. How exactly was Kareem outplayed by Walton again? This was the 70's so they didn't update stats as much as today's television networks do but Kareem had something like 28 points to Walton's 19. They didn't mention rebounding but it easily appeared that Kareem outrebounded Walton as well. The only thing Walton did better than Kareem was passing. When Kareem went out the game with 5 fouls the Lakers were ahead by 4. That turned into a 6 point deficit in about three or four minutes before Kareem came back into the game and KAJ performed admirably despite playing with the handicap of five fouls. He had two or three blocks in the fourth quarter and contained Walton.

For the series Kareem averaged 35/17 despite constant double teams and even some triple teams. His team was vastly inferior to the point that even Musberger said they were "much less talented." How often do you hear an announcer make a comment like that? They try to be objective and "nice" so you can figure out how extreme the disparity was if it caused Musberger to say that they were not just less talented but much less talented. The Lakers had a better record but lost two starters due to injuries by the WCF. One was power forward Kermit Washington and the rest of the Lakers rebounded very poorly. After Kareem and Kermit the best rebounder LA had was a 4 boards per game guy. In contrast, Portland had a 20-11 all-star PF (in case you were wondering, Kareem was the only all-star on the Lakers). When the Lakers were healthy they did well against Portland. In the regular season they beat Portland 3-1, although to be fair Walton was hurt for two of those games and the Blazers lost both of them. Despite injuries, the games in the WCF were close. Three of the four games were decided by 6 points are less.

What about Walton? I don't know his WCF stats because we don't have game logs for back then and for some mysterious reason no one who says Walton>Kareem in the WCF ever posts his numbers...What we know is Walton averaged 18/15/5.5 in the playoffs. Kareem averaged 35/18/4 in the playoffs. Walton had the superior team by the WCF due to LA's injuries yet three of the four games were close. So how exactly did Walton outplay Kareem? Kareem did more with less. This smacks of the Wilt vs. Russell debate where one guy outplayed the other by a large margin but the lesser player had a superior "supporting cast" and that offset the dominance of the greater player.

Here is what one person who watched the entire series said. He was an ex-Blazer and was working as a Blazers commentator during the series. If he had any bias it would be in favor of Walton.

Snapper Jones on Kareem vs. Walton: "What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

[Alhazred]

Kareem outplayed Walton. That said, Walton was excellent that year. I think he averaged 18/14/5, right?

[Leviathon1121]

I was under the assumption, based an very numerous posts in other threads that GOAT candidate players did not get passes for losing despite a gap in team talent levels.

[Alhazred]

I was under the assumption, based an very numerous posts in other threads that GOAT candidate players did not get passes for losing despite a gap in team talent levels.

Shhh.

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: @ Jordan fans bringing their BS into this thread. This is a thread for basketball fans interested in the history of the sport prior to 1985. The issue is the individual battle between Kareem and Walton, not the outcome of the series although I have seen several people cite Portland winning to claim that Walton outplayed Kareem so that is why I mentioned it. One can outplay his counterpart thoroughly and lose.

There are a lot of people here who think Walton outplayed Kareem. Do any of them have a response to the OP? Maybe he did but can we hear the case? In particular, what was his production and how did it compare to Kareem's?

[Jinxed]

Do you know the "SECRET" of basketball? Have you read Simmon's the book of basketball?

You do not judge a player by points, rebounds and assists. These only account for at most 20% of what happens on the court. So perhaps Kareem did out rebound and outscore Walton. That's 15% of the game. There's still 85% unaccounted for..


Stuff like outlet passes, setting screens, floor spacing, help defense. Knowing that you have One of the GOAT's guarding you so you take less shots and act as a decoy to exploit the better matchups you have against the opposing team. These are things Walton did better than Kareem.

For example, there were many times during HS where I was the best player on the floor, however the other team's best player was guarding me, and I was only slightly better than him. However, the second best player on my team was WAY better than their second best player. So I would just act as a decoy and let my man work over his opponent. My stats would suffer but my team would win. Walton did stuff like this.

I'm not saying he outplayed him, I don't know. i haven't seen the whole series. I'm watching part of the game right now and I am just amazed by both players.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes, I read it.


I'm not saying he outplayed him, I don't know. i haven't seen the whole series. I'm watching part of the game right now and I am just amazed by both players.

That is why I posted the link to the video so people could watch them in action and judge for themselves. I know what you are saying but Kareem helped his team in intangible ways as well. I do agree, though, that Walton's value went beyond stats. In addition to his passing and defense he was a great team leader.

[magnax1]

Wow, thanks for posting this. I haven't seen much of Prime WAlton, probably because there isn't much of it out there.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, thanks for posting this. I haven't seen much of Prime WAlton, probably because there isn't much of it out there.

No problem. :cheers: Yeah, sadly there is not much out there for games before 1980. I like this game because you can see both prime Kareem and prime Walton.

[magnax1]

No problem. :cheers: Yeah, sadly there is not much out there for games before 1980. I like this game because you can see both prime Kareem and prime Walton.
Agreed. There are just some guys that you can't find many games of from back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah and it is sad because it leads to older players being underrated. The 1977 WCSF is online too. You can see prime Rick Barry in that one. Kareem eliminated Barry and then Barry moved to the broadcasting table for the WCF. :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is this game available in it's entirety?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yes! Damn, I did not notice it was hard to find the second part. :hammerhead: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Scroll to "related videos" and it is the 15th one listed. You'll be better off just searching "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the parts will come up. There are 12 parts. It would be great to see your take on this after you watch it.

[ILLsmak]

Bill Walton is hilarious because when he commentates on a game he speaks as if he is the GOAT and he never made a mistake. If he hadn't got that ring w/ Portland he might have never done anything in the NBA.

-Smak

[Fatal9]

It's funny to see how little posters who were arguing Walton > Kareem actually knew about the series. Look at this thread: http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=154369&page=3.

People forget despite the heads up matchup (where Kareem outplayed Walton, there is no questioning it), both Washington and Allen were injured. Washington didn't even play in the playoffs while Allen missed many games and was playing on an injured foot. The series was won at the guard positions where Portland destroyed LA's slower, turnover prone guards. I put up video of Kareem's 40 pt game against him, and there was a sequence where LA's guard couldn't even bring up the ball past half court (got it stolen by the the quicker Portland guards 3 straight times in a row...it was comical). He was playing with basically no forward around him, just guards because of how banged up LA was. Here's Kareem explaining it:

In '77 we had the best team in the league, but we lost Kermit Washington and Lucius Allen just before the playoffs, and Portland beat us four straight.

"We were playing, more or less, with four guards and me. Don Ford was out-rebounded by Maurice Lucas something like 45-12. Yet everything written said that Walton had outplayed me. Walton played a great series. I played a great series. The Trail Blazers played a great series. The Lakers played a poor one. The press tried to make it seem like I was embarrassed. Walton made one dunk shot on me, and that was supposed to have signaled the end of Abdul-Jabbar being the best."

The press has apparently changed its mind—Abdul-Jabbar is the best again—because so many things have happened to make the Lakers fun once more. "I view that with total cynicism," Abdul-Jabbar says of the press turnaround.

[RoseCity07]

My uncle was telling me how John Wooden praised Bill Walton more than Kareem, and how when Kareem heard about it he made sure to drop 40 every time he played against Walton. Kareem was the better player.

Who really knows what kind of battles there could have been had Walton stayed healthy.

[Roundball_Rock]

My uncle was telling me how John Wooden praised Bill Walton more than Kareem, and how when Kareem heard about it he made sure to drop 40 every time he played against Walton. Kareem was the better player.

I've heard that story too. Walton has said Kareem would drop 50 against him every time and that Kareem was by far the best player he ever played against. Obviously that is an exaggeration but you get the point. Kareem dominated against him on a routine basis.


It's funny to see how little posters who were arguing Walton > Kareem actually knew about the series. Look at this thread: http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthre...=154369&page=3.

It is a common perception here that Walton>Kareem in 1977. We saw it in the Kareem GOAT thread. People cited that as if it were a fact and Hakeem outplaying a 38 year old Kareem to argue against Kareem. This is why I am glad I found actual footage of a complete game online. People can watch a full game and form some conclusions based on seeing a game. I watched this game the other day and I could not understand how people could believe Walton outplayed him because we know Kareem actually had better numbers in the three other games than this one. Walton was a great player but Kareem simply was a greater player, just like Wilt vs. Russell or more recently Hakeem vs. D. Robinson.

[Alhazred]

Walton was a great player but Kareem simply was a greater player, just like Wilt vs. Russell or more recently Hakeem vs. D. Robinson.

For some reason, DRob is 30-12 against Hakeem in the regular season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

I think Hakeem is better, too, but those regular season numbers can be misleading.

[RoseCity07]

Just watching that video makes me envy the era those fans got to witness. This was a fun game to watch, the tempo and style of play. No flopping, no star calls. I like that it was about the two star big men, and not guard play.

I wish the NBA was more about basketball, instead of selling shoes and which team gets the most calls.

[Roundball_Rock]

Just watching that video makes me envy the era those fans got to witness. This was a fun game to watch, the tempo and style of play. No flopping, no star calls. I like that it was about the two star big men, and not guard play.

I wish the NBA was more about basketball, instead of selling shoes and which team gets the most calls.

I agree on 90% of counts, although I have no problem with the rise of guards. Note that the refs let Kareem play after he got 5 fouls in the third quarter so the game was decided on the court, not by the refs. If that happened today he would have quickly been out on a ticky tack foul.


For some reason, DRob is 30-12 against Hakeem in the regular season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=robinda01&p2=olajuha01

I think Hakeem is better, too, but those regular season numbers can be misleading.

Robinson was a great player. He really was very close to Hakeem's level--in the regular season. The difference between the two is Hakeem elevated his game in the playoffs and Robinson actually performed worse in the playoffs.

Regarding, 30-12, he won 10 straight when he got Duncan. See http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=149487

Yeah, stats are sometimes misleading. Statistically Ewing, Robinson, and Hakeem are all equal career-wise but it was pretty clear that Hakeem>Robinson and most people would say Robinson>Ewing.

[Fatal9]

There is a common perception on this board that "Walton outplayed Kareem." Is this true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQzI9uf5g&feature=related
[B]
LA guards already getting destroyed at both ends in the first two minutes of the video :oldlol:. That went on ALL series.

[Roundball_Rock]

LA guards already getting destroyed at both ends in the first two minutes of the video :oldlol:. That went on ALL series.

:oldlol:

It is a shame Kareem was stuck for most of his prime on bad teams--14 wins without him bad. Did any all-time great spent so much of his prime with so little to work with? The only one that comes to mind is Hakeem but he isn't a GOAT caliber legend.

[Fatal9]

Kareem skyhooking over 3 defenders like it's nothing :eek:

I wish I didn't take off the 40 pt game from my channel. Walton got bullied that game. Considering the guard/injury situation, it's remarkable how close all these games still were. It's just embarrassing to watch them bring the ball upcourt and try to defend the quick Portland guards.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am reading some of the Kareem thread to see some of the Kareem/Walton comments. Someone posted an article saying Walton>Kareem. You know, the one that cherry picked Walton's best moments (the media never loved Kareem, especially in the 70's) The writer of the article let this gem slip through, though: in one game Kareem had 40/17 and Walton 14/17. :eek:

[Fatal9]

I am reading some of the Kareem thread to see some of the Kareem/Walton comments. Someone posted an article saying Walton>Kareem. You know, the one that cherry picked Walton's best moments (the media never loved Kareem, especially in the 70's) The writer of the article let this gem slip through, though: in one game Kareem had 40/17 and Walton 14/17. :eek:
he was blocking a lot of Walton's jumphooks too. Walton was looking devastated for most the game. the key moment happened when Kareem went to the bench (with the lead) and Laker guards made made 3 straight turnovers in the last 10 seconds of the 3rd quarter (seriously...in 10 seconds), and by the time he came back Lakers were down again. kareem's +/- in this series must have been off the charts.

he was ridiculous for the entire playoffs though. against the Warriors in the 7 game series, he averaged 37/19/5/4 (60% shooting) if I am remembering correctly. He had four 40+ games against them in the series and in the game 7 he put up 36 pts and 26 rebs, and brought his team back from being down 10+ pts.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes! Damn, I did not notice it was hard to find the second part. :hammerhead: Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Scroll to "related videos" and it is the 15th one listed. You'll be better off just searching "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the parts will come up. There are 12 parts. It would be great to see your take on this after you watch it.

Thanks. :rockon: I'm really looking forward to watching this.

[Roundball_Rock]

"Walton exploded for 22 points (in Game 2 or 3)." :roll: :roll: :roll: @ the media bias. 22 points="exploding" in Walton's case. Kareem drops 35 ppg in the series yet Walton scoring 22 once is "exploding"? :oldlol: Catch the next sentence: "Kareem was held to only 5 field goals." 5 field goals. That is 10 points right there. How about telling us how many points he scored to make a fair comparison? This is Kareem. He averaged 11 FTA in the playoffs and made 8. It would be fair to estimate Kareem probably had 16-17 points in that game. So basically that is it. Kareem demolished him in every game except one where Walton probably scored 5-6 more points and this is just scoring. The commentator didn't mention what they did regarding rebounding, defense, etc. so given the tiny gap in scoring it is conceivable that Kareem outplayed him even in that game.


Walton was looking devastated for most the game. the key moment happened when Kareem went to the bench (with the lead) and Laker guards made made 3 straight turnovers in the last 10 seconds of the 3rd quarter (seriously...in 10 seconds), and by the time he came back Lakers were down again. kareem's +/- in this series must have been off the charts.

Those bums crumbled without him in this game too. :rolleyes: They went from leading by 4 to down 6 in three or four minutes when Kareem went out with 5 fouls.


against the Warriors in the 7 game series, he averaged 37/19/5/4 (60% shooting) if I am remembering correctly. He had four 40+ games against them in the series and in the game 7 he put up 36 pts and 26 rebs, and brought his team back from being down 10+ pts.

:bowdown: I heard he had a 43-18 game against the Warriors too. There is at least one video of a complete game from that series up (Game 6). When I watch it I will post it too. It gives another example of prime Kareem in action plus you get to see prime Barry.


Thanks. I'm really looking forward to watching this.

:cheers: I look forward to your take on it since you are our resident big man expert.

[Alhazred]

I just watched the first three minutes and Portland's perimeter players were killing LA.

[Fatal9]

The setup was too perfect for the media to not run away with the story. You have a new up and coming white superstar named "Bill" who just swept the aloof muslim/black guy named "Kareem", wonder who the 70s media was cheering for :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Walton: Without question, no hesitation, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was the best player I ever played against. Not just the best center, he was the best player, period. He was better than Magic (Johnson), better than Larry, better than Michael (Jordan). He was my source of motivation. Everything I did was to try to beat this guy. I lived to play against him, and I played my best ball against him. No matter what I threw at him, though, it seemed like he'd score 50 against me. His left leg belongs in the Smithsonian. And it wasn't just offense. He was a great defender and rebounder, a great passer, a wonderful leader. He was phenomenal.

[chitownsfinest]

Nice to see this uploaded. Really hard to find full games from the 70s.

[Alhazred]

Bill Walton on him and Kareem.


"Kareem was the best player by far that I ever played against. My battles with Jabbar, next to winning championships, were the most exciting moments of my professional career. Everything I did as a basketball player, I did to beat him. I would be riding my bike up a hill, pumping iron, running, saying to myself, 'Jabbar, Jabbar, Jabbar...I'm going to get him'. He was my ideal opponent, my archrival, my motivation."

[ShaqAttack3234]

:bowdown: I heard he had a 43-18 game against the Warriors too. There is at least one video of a complete game from that series up (Game 6). When I watch it I will post it too. It gives another example of prime Kareem in action plus you get to see prime Barry.

I'll have to watch that one too. I've seen 2 or 3 complete games from the 1980 finals and a complete game from the 1970-71 season, but that's about it as far as prime Kareem.

[Roundball_Rock]

I just watched the first three minutes and Portland's perimeter players were killing LA.

It was a joke. They had trouble even getting the ball up court. :oldlol:


The setup was too perfect for the media to not run away with the story. You have a new up and coming white superstar named "Bill" who just swept the aloof muslim/black guy named "Kareem", wonder who the 70s media was cheering fo

Yup. :oldlol:


"Kareem was the best player by far that I ever played against. My battles with Jabbar, next to winning championships, were the most exciting moments of my professional career. Everything I did as a basketball player, I did to beat him. I would be riding my bike up a hill, pumping iron, running, saying to myself, 'Jabbar, Jabbar, Jabbar...I'm going to get him'. He was my ideal opponent, my archrival, my motivation."

The funny thing is when Simmons told Walton he outplayed Kareem Walton's reaction was :wtf: and Walton said Kareem would drop 50 on him routinely. Obviously Kareem did not literally score 50+ each time but you get the point: KAJ consistently dominated Walton and Walton admitted it. Walton was a great player, though, as you can see in the video. Kareem was just greater.


I'll have to watch that one too. I've seen 2 or 3 complete games from the 1980 finals and a complete game from the 1970-71 season, but that's about it as far as prime Kareem.

Is that 1971 game online? Yeah, it sucks that there is so little out there pre-1980. You can find a lot of games on 80's and 90's legends but there is practically nothing pre-1980. A lot what is out there is just "Vintage NBA" 30 minute edited versions of games.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Is that 1971 game online? Yeah, it sucks that there is so little out there pre-1980. You can find a lot of games on 80's and 90's legends but there is practically nothing pre-1980. A lot what is out there is just "Vintage NBA" 30 minute edited versions of games.

Yeah, here is the thread where I posted the link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142962

[chitownsfinest]

The only player I can think of who dominated his era as good as Kareem dominated the 70s was Mj in the 90s. Can anyone name a year where Kareem wasn't the first or second best player in the L during that time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Yeah, here is the thread where I posted the link.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142962

:rockon: :cheers: Awesome. The fact that it was against the Knicks makes it even cooler because you get to see Reed and Frazier too.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Just watched the game and my impressions are the following.

First of all, it's apparent that Walton had a better team around him. Having a 20/10 PF with a jumpshot like Maurice Lucas as well as a team full of unselfish players who could score the ball is a big advantage. Lionel Hollins was also a solid guard and their ball movement was superior to the Lakers(in large part due to Walton, though).

And it's also obvious that Kareem was a much better scorer than Walton. He could score in a variety of ways over double teams and the degree of difficulty on his shots for a 7'2" center is extremely impressive. Walton was no slouch in that department though, he made atleast 4 nice bank shots and a gorgeous baseline ball fake move in the first half. Regardless, that aspect of the game goes to Kareem, easily.

However I was very impressed with how Walton boxed out Kareem in the first half, unsure of the rebounding numbers, but Kareem did get atleast 4 uncontested rebounds on missed perimeter jumpers. Rebounding overall would be about equal. Kareem may get a bit of an edge defensively, though.

However, Walton's passing was superior in this game, both in the halfcourt and his outlet passes. He set up a ton of cutters and I can't count how many points his bullet outlet passes led to. How many points did Walton create with his passing overall? A hell of a lot of them.

I wouldn't really say either player outplayed the other. Both had fantastic games, but their roles were different.

[Alhazred]

It was a joke. They had trouble even getting the ball up court. :oldlol:

I'm not sure if it was just the incompetence of LA's backcourt or Portland just having a good game, but Portland's guards were smothering LA's. I see why Snapper Jones made that comment about the guards determining those games.


The funny thing is when Simmons told Walton he outplayed Kareem Walton's reaction was :wtf: and Walton said Kareem would drop 50 on him routinely. Obviously Kareem did not literally score 50+ each time but you get the point: KAJ consistently dominated Walton and Walton admitted it. Walton was a great player, though, as you can see in the video. Kareem was just greater.

Agreed. I like Simmons, but he's unquestionably a Celtics n*thugger.

[insidious301]

Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever. Clearly the most dominant. So dominant that his patented shot was NEVER blocked. Great video brother.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks for your analysis, ShaqAttack. :cheers: I can see why you are arguing they were similar in this game. However, this was a subpar game for Kareem and he was still at minimum on par with Walton. Kareem averaged 35 ppg for the series. In this game he had 26 or 28 and in another he had 40 and 15-17 in a third. Actually, given his 35 ppg average that means he had 50+ in the other game. The available evidence suggests they battled to more or less a draw in two games and Kareem demolished him in the other two. In one game we know Kareem had 40/17 to Walton's 14/17. Hence I believe it is fair to say that Kareem outplayed Walton in the series. Walton's passing is not enough to overcome such a disparity in scoring over the series, especially since Kareem he was probably better defensively. Also Walton was helped by having teammates who could score when they got the ball!


I'm not sure if it was just the incompetence of LA's backcourt or Portland just having a good game, but Portland's guards were smothering LA's. I see why Snapper Jones made that comment about the guards determining those games.

Evidently they just sucked based on Jone's comment, video of this game and the clips Fatal posted in an older thread from this game showing LA's guards getting embarassed. Kareem also had no power forward after Washington got hurt. In fact, Kareem never played with a 10 rpg PF in his career.


I like Simmons, but he's unquestionably a Celtics n*thugger.

I agree.


Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever.

:rockon:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Thanks for your analysis, ShaqAttack. :cheers: I can see why you are arguing they were similar in this game. However, this was a subpar game for Kareem and he was still at minimum on par with Walton. Kareem averaged 35 ppg for the series. In this game he had 26 or 28 and in another he had 40 and 15-17 in a third. Actually, given his 35 ppg average that means he had 50+ in the other game. The available evidence suggests they battled to more or less a draw in two games and Kareem demolished him in the other two. In one game we know Kareem had 40/17 to Walton's 14/17. Hence I believe it is fair to say that Kareem outplayed Walton in the series. Walton's passing is not enough to overcome such a disparity in scoring over the series, especially since Kareem he was probably better defensively. Also Walton was helped by having teammates who could score when they got the ball!


I think Kareem's averages for the series were 30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 bpg, 61 FG% while Walton's were 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%.

The 35 ppg were for the entire playoffs, not the Portland series. I agree that Walton's teammates being better finishers is a factor and 40/17 vs 14/17 is domination. But I've only seen one game from the series so I can't speak about who was better throughout the series.

[Roundball_Rock]

No, Kareem in his autobiography says 35 ppg in the series, or at least it sounds like he is talking about the series.


...The games were close, the last three decided by under 6 points each, but all I read about in the papers and magazines was 'Portland Shocks LA, Walton Outduels Jabbar.' I averaged 35 points a game; I was doing everything I could do, but I was playing against tough competition and not getting great help. Maurice Lucas outrebounded Don Ford something like 50 to 12 in the four games, but the press stories read...'Walton made Kareem look terrible,' 'Walton's the greatest center to ever play the game.' There was something personal in the glee with which those opinions were reported; I felt as if another piece of me was being chipped away. I've had to deal with that blend of racism and envy my entire career...You can bet if Bill and I had both been black, you wouldn't have heard such crowing."

Pg. 276.

I agree it is hard to speak about the series since none of us has seen all four games. I am going by the available evidence. Snapper Jones saw the entire series and he said Kareem crushed Walton. Walton himself has said the same thing. I notice that none of the Walton>Kareem people on ISH have appeared in this thread now that video of a full game is available. If there is a case to be made for Walton for some odd reason no one is making it now--not even Walton himself--although the media at the time did but, as Kareem explained, race was a huge factor as was Kareem's aloof and controversial personality.

[Fatal9]

I think he might have meant 35 ppg for the whole playoffs, or didn't know the stats specifically but felt like he averaged around 35 ppg (which I guess is in the same ballpark). I think he averaged around 30-31 ppg because he averaged like 38/18/5/4 or something outrageous like that in the 7 game series vs. the Warriors. Still gotta love how the guy putting up 30/16/4/4 on 60+% (which are close to Shaq's numbers in those dominant finals) got "outplayed" :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

No, Kareem in his autobiography says 35 ppg in the series, or at least it sounds like he is talking about the series.



Pg. 276.

I agree it is hard to speak about the series since none of us has seen all four games. I am going by the available evidence. Snapper Jones saw the entire series and he said Kareem crushed Walton. Walton himself has said the same thing. I notice that none of the Walton>Kareem people on ISH have appeared in this thread now that video of a full game is available. If there is a case to be made for Walton for some odd reason no one is making it now--not even Walton himself--although the media at the time did but, as Kareem explained, race was a huge factor as was Kareem's aloof and controversial personality.

I think he's referring to the entire playoffs because he averaged about 37 ppg in the 7 game series vs the Warriors so 35 ppg in a 4 game series vs Portland would give him quite a bit more than the 34.6 ppg he averaged for the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

Ah. Yeah, if he was at 37-38 ppg in the GS series then he would be at 30-31 ppg in the Portland series. So we know he scored 26-28 points in this game, 15-17 in another, and 40 in a third. Let's plug in 27, 16, and 40. If he averaged 31 ppg in the Portland series that means he had 41 in the other game. This depends a bit based on whether it was 30.5 or 31.4, whether it was actually 26 or 28, etc. but you get the point. He had two monster games, another good one (OP), and one subpar game by his standards but even in that game it is conceivable that he outplayed Walton because Walton "exploded" for 22 points. We don't know what they did on defense, on the boards, and passing the ball.


30.3 ppg, 16 rpg, 3.8 bpg, 61 FG% while Walton's were 19.3 ppg, 14.8 rpg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 bpg, 51 FG%.


Do you have the assist numbers for Kareem? He averaged 4 apg in the playoffs. If he was there then that 2 apg advantage for Walton is not that big of a deal when you look at their complete records. They are about even on rebounding and blocks, although Kareem has an edge on blocks that basically cancels out Walton's on assists. Obviously this does not take into account "hockey assists" and outlet passes that ignite a fastbreak but we know Kareem was a good passer for a C so Walton was not crushing him there. So essentially they were on par everywhere but Kareem had a huge edge on offense, both in volume and in efficiency.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Ah. Yeah, if he was at 37-38 ppg in the GS series then he would be at 30-31 ppg in the Portland series. So we know he scored 26-28 points in this game, 15-17 in another, and 40 in a third. Let's plug in 27, 16, and 40. If he averaged 31 ppg in the Portland series that means he had 41 in the other game. This depends a bit based on whether it was 30.5 or 31.4, whether it was actually 26 or 28, etc. but you get the point. He had two monster games, another good one (OP), and one subpar game by his standards but even in that game it is conceivable that he outplayed Walton because Walton "exploded" for 22 points. We don't know what they did on defense, on the boards, and passing the ball.



Do you have the assist numbers for Kareem? He averaged 4 apg in the playoffs. If he was there then that 2 apg advantage for Walton is not that big of a deal when you look at their complete records. They are about even on rebounding and blocks, although Kareem has an edge on blocks that basically cancels out Walton's on assists. Obviously this does not take into account "hockey assists" and outlet passes that ignite a fastbreak but we know Kareem was a good passer for a C so Walton was not crushing him there. So essentially they were on par everywhere but Kareem had a huge edge on offense, both in volume and in efficiency.

Unfortunately I do not have Kareem's assist numbers, Sports Illustrated didn't list them.

[Fatal9]

he had 30/10, 40/17, 21/20, 30/17 in the four games. apparently they triple teamed the hell out of him in game 3 and that is the only game you could maybe say Walton outplayed him. Kareem is a great passer himself, believe me, I've seen the 40 pt game he had, even edited the game into highlights, and Kareem would strike an open teammate but they would airball over and over again in fourth quarter...it was pathetic to see.

[Roundball_Rock]

he had 30/10, 40/17, 21/20, 30/17 in the four games. apparently they triple teamed the hell out of him in game 3 and that is the only game you could maybe say Walton outplayed him. Kareem is a great passer himself, believe me, I've seen the 40 pt game he had, even edited the game into highlights, and Kareem would strike an open teammate but they would airball over and over again in fourth quarter...it was pathetic to see.

And all on 60+% shooting. :bowdown: Are you going to put that 40/17 game video back up btw?


Unfortunately I do not have Kareem's assist numbers, Sports Illustrated didn't list them.

That suggests they were probably solid. :lol

[Fatal9]

Here's the 40/17 game: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0S0LXEZJ

ignore the olympic themed music (lol), it was there because I couldn't stand the Spanish commentary. Lakers were up 79-70 when Kareem went out, and then you can see that comical sequence where the Laker guards were literally handing the ball to the Portland guards. You'll also see the airballs his teammates shot whenever they were presented with an open shot in the fourth quarter.

[Manute for Ever!]

Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever. Clearly the most dominant. So dominant that his patented shot was NEVER blocked. Great video brother.

And that's where we know that you made a statement based on reputation, not facts, and can safely assume you never saw him play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmZCcJM10ys
0:40, Wilt Chamberlain blocks two skyhooks in one sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWnuQbaGjM
Manute Bol blocks a skyhook against the glass.

That's three times off the top of my head without even searching.

[Alhazred]

And that's where we know that you made a statement based on reputation, not facts, and can safely assume you never saw him play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmZCcJM10ys
0:40, Wilt Chamberlain blocks two skyhooks in one sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZWnuQbaGjM
Manute Bol blocks a skyhook against the glass.

That's three times off the top of my head without even searching.

I think Mark Eaton and Hakeem have blocked him a few times, as well. Still, those are four of the greatest shot blockers of all time, so no shame for Kareem.

[Manute for Ever!]

I think Mark Eaton and Hakeem have blocked him a few times, as well. Still, those are four of the greatest shot blockers of all time, so no shame for Kareem.

:cheers: No shame in it at all, I just hate it when people make bold statements based on nothing.

[Manute for Ever!]

:oldlol: @ Jordan fans bringing their BS into this thread. This is a thread for basketball fans interested in the history of the sport prior to 1985. The issue is the individual battle between Kareem and Walton, not the outcome of the series although I have seen several people cite Portland winning to claim that Walton outplayed Kareem so that is why I mentioned it. One can outplay his counterpart thoroughly and lose.

There are a lot of people here who think Walton outplayed Kareem. Do any of them have a response to the OP? Maybe he did but can we hear the case? In particular, what was his production and how did it compare to Kareem's?

Just wondering what makes these posters Jordan fans? There is no Jordan reference in the names or avatars and they didn't even mention the man... :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

Just wondering what makes these posters Jordan fans? There is no Jordan reference in the names or avatars and they didn't even mention the man... :confusedshrug:

Allhazred and the sock Leviathon are MJ fans are were alluding to the MJ vs. Bird thread. Allhazred will tell you he is a MJ fan, although the sock with 0.08 posts a day, all of them related to MJ may not.

[ShaqAttack3234]

he had 30/10, 40/17, 21/20, 30/17 in the four games. apparently they triple teamed the hell out of him in game 3 and that is the only game you could maybe say Walton outplayed him. Kareem is a great passer himself, believe me, I've seen the 40 pt game he had, even edited the game into highlights, and Kareem would strike an open teammate but they would airball over and over again in fourth quarter...it was pathetic to see.

Don't get me wrong, I too, rank Kareem as one of the best passing big men ever. I was just referring to game 4 when I pointed out Walton's superior passing in that particular game.


Here's the 40/17 game: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0S0LXEZJ

ignore the olympic themed music (lol), it was there because I couldn't stand the Spanish commentary. Lakers were up 79-70 when Kareem went out, and then you can see that comical sequence where the Laker guards were literally handing the ball to the Portland guards. You'll also see the airballs his teammates shot whenever they were presented with an open shot in the fourth quarter.

Thanks for the game. The more I see of prime Kareem, the more I realize that his body control and athleticism for a guy 7'2"-7'3" are often overlooked.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks for the game. The more I see of prime Kareem, the more I realize that his body control and athleticism for a guy 7'2"-7'3" are often overlooked.

Agreed. :eek:

[Fatal9]

7'3 guy (in shoes) with freakishly long arms and the ability to rise up so swiftly on his left foot from a standstill...impossible to stop. Most players wouldn't even bother contesting it because they would put themselves out of position for a rebound if they did. Only player to successfully give the shot some trouble was Nate Thurmond, who had the timing to do it, and also slightly undercut Kareem when he would shoot.

And those "blocks" on Kareem's skyhook are goaltends. The only player I have seen block it legitimately is Bill Willoughby, who was a scrub on the Rockets back in the 70s. Wouldn't surprise me if Eaton got it though, but I haven't seen any video of it. Only time Kareem's skyhook could be blocked was when Kareem was about 4-5 feet in, because he couldn't put the same arc being that close...but outside of that? Unblockable.

[jlauber]

"Kareem is the greatest basketball player ever. Clearly the most dominant. So dominant that his patented shot was NEVER blocked. Great video brother."

I have always felt that Kareem is near the very top of all-time great players, but there was one player who consistently challenged Kareem's "sky-hook"...

http://www.amazon.com/Wilt-Larger-Robert-Allen-Cherry/dp/1572436727

"In the twilight of his career, a 35 year old Wilt led the Lakers to victory over the Bucks and a 25 year old Jabbar during the 1972 playoffs. Even more astounding, was wilt blocked 20 shots in two consecutive games in that series, and 11 of those blocked shots were on Kareem."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

[Kblaze8855]

Reading his book quotes I wonder if Kareem puts it on racism when he sees Wooden say that healthy Walton was the best center he ever saw?

[Fatal9]

Kareem really made Wilt his b*tch in that '72 season :oldlol:

I know Wilt was past his prime, but we've got a Wilt fan acting like Wilt was slowing Kareem down or something.

First, he snaps the Lakers 33 game win streak...dominates Wilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcdliLtkEs

He averaged 40 ppg on Wilt in the regular season games, more points than he averaged on ANY other center that season. Then averaged 34/16/6 on him in the playoffs. He had one bad shooting game (15/37), where Wilt blocked those shots but torched him for the rest of the series.

Lakers won the series in '72 only because Oscar was injured. They split 1-1, by taking a game on the Lakers court and then Oscar got injured in game 3 and played like sh*t for the rest of the series (the reserve guards were also injured). Hell, they almost stole both games on the road against the Lakers...Kareem was clutch brought the Bucks back, Bucks were down 1 and Kareem checked Jerry West at half court and knocked the ball loose, unluckily for him, the Lakers got the loose ball. It seems like Kareem loved playing against Wilt, gave him a great opportunity to boost those stats :oldlol:. Like I said earlier, only Nate Thurmond could slow down Kareem in his prime, no one else.

[Roundball_Rock]

Reading his book quotes I wonder if Kareem puts it on racism when he sees Wooden say that healthy Walton was the best center he ever saw?

I don't think so. He praises Walton, both as a player and a person (he credits Walton for not selling out his left-wing views for commercial advantage). I looked at the part of the book where he is talking about the 77' WCF and all he says regarding Wooden is that Walton learned under him too. His beef is with the media not giving him the respect someone who had won 4 MVP's in 6 years deserved. If Portland beat Chicago in 92' would the media have orgasmed and claimed Drexler>Jordan? Just last week Lebron comprehensively outplayed Kobe yet again but the media keeps Kobe in the same stratosphere as Lebron. I know they play different positions but they are always compared to each other and the media presents them as equals who are in a class far above the next group of players. I think Kareem has a legit point regarding racism and media coverage in that era.

[Fatal9]

Yup. :oldlol:
This was the same 70s media that was criticizing the Knicks for having all black players. Fans at the time used to call them the n***erboxers. NBA was dying for a white superstar, Walton provided them with an opportunity and the myths took off. Kareem was black, muslim and had an abrasive image...no one was ever going to take his side, or publicize that the real reason the Lakers lost was because their perimeter players got destroyed (and the injuries their starters had).

[chitownsfinest]

Kareem really made Wilt his b*tch in that '72 season :oldlol:

I know Wilt was past his prime, but we've got a Wilt fan acting like Wilt was slowing Kareem down or something.

First, he snaps the Lakers 33 game win streak...dominates Wilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcdliLtkEs

He averaged 40 ppg on Wilt in the regular season games, more points than he averaged on ANY other center that season. Then averaged 34/16/6 on him in the playoffs. He had one bad shooting game (15/37), where Wilt blocked those shots but torched him for the rest of the series.

Lakers won the series in '72 only because Oscar was injured. They split 1-1, by taking a game on the Lakers court and then Oscar got injured in game 3 and played like sh*t for the rest of the series (the reserve guards were also injured). Hell, they almost stole both games on the road against the Lakers...Kareem was clutch brought the Bucks back, Bucks were down 1 and Kareem checked Jerry West at half court and knocked the ball loose, unluckily for him, the Lakers got the loose ball. It seems like Kareem loved playing against Wilt, gave him a great opportunity to boost those stats :oldlol:. Like I said earlier, only Nate Thurmond could slow down Kareem in his prime, no one else.
Damn nice info. Do you know where to find full versions of these games? Any online sellers/traders?

[jlauber]

Fatal9,

Wilt's Laker's beat Kareem's Bucks 8-3 in that '71-'72 season. Kareem shot 43% against Wilt in the playoffs, with games of 15-37, 13-33, and 16-36. Wilt recorded 15 blocks on Kareem in that series, alone.

In thew clinching game six win, Chamberlain DOMINATED Kareem down the stretch, leading the Lakers' back from a 10 point deficit, in the 4th quarter, and holding Kareem to 2-8 shooting in the final period.

Once again, though, you are right...Wilt was well past his prime...11 years older than Kareem.

Regarding that '71-'72 Playoff series...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[COLOR="DarkRed"]"In the post-season, the Lakers defeated the Chicago Bulls in a sweep,[84] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar again. The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Jabbar and the Bucks in 6 games.[84] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his final Game 6 performance, which the Lakers won 106

[Roundball_Rock]

This was the same 70s media that was criticizing the Knicks for having all black players. Fans at the time used to call them the n***erboxers. NBA was dying for a white superstar, Walton provided them with an opportunity and the myths took off. Kareem was black, muslim and had an abrasive image...no one was ever going to take his side, or publicize that the real reason the Lakers lost was because their perimeter players got destroyed (and the injuries their starters had).

Exactly. Think about it. We are talking about big media. That is the media that most influences people. We are not talking about small town newspapers. Who writes for the major newspapers and works for the networks news? People who are at least in their 40's who worked there way up to the top level of journalism. Suppose a writer for SI is 45 in 1977. That means he came of age in the late 40's and early 50's. How many of them were infected by racism, which was common back then nationally? Then you have all the writers raised in the segregated South. Add to this Kareem's personality. Add to this their financial motive in presenting a good story that will generate viewers and readers. Add to this that Walton was the new guy going up against the perennially dominant guy so he was an underdog. Add to this the NBA's "image problem" being perceived as "too black", which Simmons spoke of a lot in his book. Is it any surprise this myth took hold? There were too many incentives, too many prejudices involved and every single one of them redounded to Kareem's disadvantage.

Which story sells more? "Outspoken Black Muslim Kareem dominates for the zillionith time" or "Upstart 'Bill Walton' eclipses formerly supreme Jabbar".

[Abraham Lincoln]

Lakers won the series in '72 only because Oscar was injured.
Don't forget the Dipper with putting the clamps on Jabbar in the pivotal Gm. 3 (or 5)'s 4th quarter. 5 rejected hooks, zero points. Lakers came back and won 108-105. Note this was with two broken hands (his hands were wrapped up like a boxer (http://i49.tinypic.com/8xu1xe.jpg)) and a surgically repaired knee tendon.

[Abraham Lincoln]

It seems like Kareem loved playing against Wilt, gave him a great opportunity to boost those stats :oldlol:.

"I feel sorry for Kareem. One thing for sure - he was blessed with a magnificent body and magnificent talent. Not to say he loafed, but he never pushed himself to the limit.

I'm not here to chastise Kareem. He was the greatest offensive force I ever faced on the basketball court - by far. The only time I ever saw him push himself was against me.''

[Fatal9]

Fatal9,

Wilt's Laker's beat Kareem's Bucks 8-3 in that '71-'72 season. Kareem shot 43% against Wilt in the playoffs, with games of 15-37, 13-33, and 16-36. Wilt recorded 15 blocks on Kareem in that series, alone.
He didn't shoot 43% against him that series, it was 47% (caused by a couple of bad shooting games), his playoff FG% was brought down by his matchup against Nate Thurmond's Warriors (who held him to 43% again in next year's playoffs). And he averaged 40 ppg on him in the regular season, more than against any other center. I'd call that getting dominated. In the game Kareem shot "13/33", Wilt put up 5/11 while Kareem had 31/18/7, yea he really got outplayed here :rolleyes:. Like I said, the Bucks would have won the series if Oscar and the reserve guards don't get injured. Apparently Oscar's abdomen condition got so bad after game 3, he became basically a stationary offensive/defensive player. It's a shame, the Oscar Kareem duo could have won 3 titles ('71, '72, '74). In '71 they succeeded with a healthy team, '72 Oscar got injured and stunk it up afterwards, and '74 Oscar abandons Kareem in the game 7 of the NBA finals by shooting 2/13 for just 6 points.

[Kblaze8855]

It seems like Kareem loved playing against Wilt, gave him a great opportunity to boost those stats . Like I said earlier, only Nate Thurmond could slow down Kareem in his prime, no one else.

Wilt in one of his books(view from above) spoke on how Kareem got up to play him and shot a lot more than he usually would trying to show him up while he was past that and onto a defensive/playmaking role. With games of 15-37, 13-33, and 16-36? I kinda buy what Wilt said.

[jlauber]

Abe,

Good points, as always.

I won't take the time to look it up now, but Kareem REALLY struggled in the '72-'73 regular season against Wilt. In fact, Wilt outscored Kareem, one game, 24-22, outshooting him 10-14 to 10-27 from the field (and I believe, SEVEN blocks.)

Granted, Kareem was the best player in the league in the 70's...but I would have taken Wilt, in his PRIME (circa '67 or so) over Kareem in HIS prime.

[Fatal9]

I would kill to see any of the games from that series though. Two GOAT centers going head to head, with different roles, but still playing top level ball. There are some highlights (so you know there was a camera in the building) but no complete game footage. Plus, if they televised a regular season matchup, you'd think they'd definitely televise the playoff matchup. But TV schedule for NBA games was always weird till the early 80s so I don't know. I just have old boxscores and sometimes I can see reviews of the games from my NYT subscription but that's it. NBA has been working on a "digital archive" where they were going to make all this type of content available but there has been no mention of it since they announced it (can't make $$ from it?).

[Roundball_Rock]

It's a shame, the Oscar Kareem duo could have won 3 titles ('71, '72, '74). In '71 they succeeded with a healthy team, '72 Oscar got injured and stunk it up afterwards, and '74 Oscar abandons Kareem in the game 7 of the NBA finals by shooting 2/13 for just 6 points.

With a few breaks here and there (i.e. no "Tragic Magic" in 84') Kareem could have had 9-10 rings. :eek:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Wilt in one of his books(view from above) spoke on how Kareem got up to play him and shot a lot more than he usually would trying to show him up while he was past that and onto a defensive/playmaking role. With games of 15-37, 13-33, and 16-36? I kinda buy what Wilt said.

Indeed, I have seldom seen Jabbar slam it down on someone with such emphasis as below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lysfZ_fo9k8#t=3m49s

[Fatal9]

With a few breaks here and there (i.e. no "Tragic Magic" in 84') Kareem could have had 9-10 rings. :eek:
Yea, to become consensus GOAT you need a few breaks:

- get a contending type of supporting cast just when you are entering your prime, and then never have a bad team afterwards
- have all the GOAT-level legends retire in the years before you get that contending cast around you
- have the league significantly weaken in terms of top tier competition, paving the way for you to win several rings in a row (and if you struggle, you always get bailed out by your team)
- benefit from earlier legends (Bird/Magic) because of whom the game became popular enough that all your great games were, and still are, available to the public (unlike Kareem/Wilt/Russell's best games)

Luck and timing are huge factors for a player's legacy, perhaps more than people want to believe.


Indeed, I have seldom seen Jabbar slam it down on someone with such emphasis as below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lysfZ_fo9k8#t=3m49s
There's another dunk he's had on him that I remember seeing in one of these highlights. That was a nasty dunk though :eek:

How is there all this footage from various camera angles but no full game footage? Just doesn't make sense.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Abe,

Good points, as always.

I won't take the time to look it up now, but Kareem REALLY struggled in the '72-'73 regular season against Wilt. In fact, Wilt outscored Kareem, one game, 24-22, outshooting him 10-14 to 10-27 from the field (and I believe, SEVEN blocks.)

Granted, Kareem was the best player in the league in the 70's...but I would have taken Wilt, in his PRIME (circa '67 or so) over Kareem in HIS prime.
No question. The Dipper proved his versatility and physical ability to adapt to the coach's gameplan moreso than any other player in the history of professional basketball. They asked him to score points, he did it whilst setting the Warriors record for wins and nearly reaching the Finals (BS goaltending. With the Sixers and eventually Lakers, he could also play in the high post and pass it off whilst selectively scoring, as well as be the top defensive player and rebounder in basketball.

[jlauber]

Fatal9,

My main point on my original post in this topic was, that Wilt DID block Kareem's "unblockable" sky-hooks. And he did so, at well past his prime.

Having said that, though, I would never argue that Kareem was not the better player during their H2H battles. Kareem was probably the most skilled offensive center that I ever witnessed.

As for the Wooden comments...I don't ever recall him saying that Walton was a better player than "Lewis" (Alcindor.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=QRMs7al5dgMC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=John+Wooden+on+Wilt&source=bl&ots=Xufxex4wIp&sig=f936A-C1Fgo3AtAfDZcJgbDJePc&hl=en&ei=xZQDS66dNpKAsgOcw4C-AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CBwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

In it, he basically says that he rated them equally.

Personally, I have to give the edge to Alcindor. His team's went 88-2 (and those two losses were by a COMBINED FOUR points...71-69, and 46-44.) THREE NC's, and 3-time NCAA Tournament MVP.

And, incidently, Alcindro got his revenge from that 71-69 loss against the Big E and Houston, with a 101-69 rout of the Cougars in the '68 semis (in fact, they led by as many as 44 points in that game.)

[Roundball_Rock]

Yea, to become consensus GOAT you need a few breaks:

- get a contending type of supporting cast just when you are entering your prime, and then never have a bad team afterwards
- have all the GOAT-level legends retire in the years before you get that contending cast around you
- have the league significantly weaken in terms of top tier competition, paving the way for you to win several rings in a row (and if you struggle, you always get bailed out by your team)
- benefit from earlier legends (Bird/Magic) because of whom the game became popular enough that all your great games were, and still are, available to the public (unlike Kareem/Wilt/Russell's best games)

Luck and timing are huge factors for a player's legacy, perhaps more than people want to believe

Yeah, which is why I :oldlol: when I hear people say "Lebron needs to win X number of rings." (usually the number throw out is 6 because to many basketball fans that is the record :rolleyes: ) It assumes that everyone's situation is equal. To be in the GOAT conversation you need rings but the notion that there is a magic number like 5, 6, or 7 is a joke. Does having better luck make one a better player?

Lebron may meet those criteria. If he doesn't, Jordan is pretty much safe on his throne for another 10-15 years.

1) He is 25 now and may win even with a subpar team. Imagine if they pull off a trade for a legit all-star like Jamison or if Lebron goes practically anywhere else since Cleveland's "supporting cast" is at least worse than that of 20-22 teams.

2) There is no GOAT caliber player playing right now other than him and Shaq. There are two top 10 all-time players around as well, Kobe and Duncan. Shaq is so old he is now a role player and both Kobe and Duncan are past their primes. Kobe is still a top 2-3 player but how long will he be playing at this level? In 3-4 years Kobe will be lucky to still be a top 5 player and Duncan probably will not be top 10. The best young players right now are Carmelo, Durant, Paul, Howard, Deron, Roy, and Rose likely will join them. All of these players are very good but do any of them look like they are GOAT caliber? Top 10 all-time caliber? Maybe a few of them will reach the top 20 but that is it. I can't see any of them ever becoming top 15. So unless some kid in high school right now winds up being a GOAT caliber player Lebron will have a huge inherent advantage in that no player anywhere near his caliber will likely be on the scene in a few years.

3) This one is hard to predict.

4) This obviously has happened. He not only benefits from the popularity created by previous legends he also benefits from the 80's explosion in marketing basketball players.

[Fatal9]

BTW, Kareem had a 50 pt game on Wilt that season...could any other center do that against a Wilt who is solely focused on defense and rebounding? :bowdown: Bucks lost that game, as yet again, Oscar was injured (this is why I laugh at those saying Kareem had Oscar to win championships in the early 70s...yea, for like one or two years, he stunk it up every other season or was injured).

....
who says I was talking about Jordan :D

"rings as the man" is usually used by ignorant fans of a certain player to oversimplify who the best ever was, without paying any attention to each player's situation, or applying any context. he has a legit case no doubt, but clowns act like it isn't even debatable. I just don't think there isn't much separating the top 5 or so players (they are all GOATs, pick a number for the best at any given time), but you still get Gretzky type "no contest" debates with Jordan.

To be honest Bird's 3 rings in the 80s while having to go through the perennially great Sixers, Pistons, Bucks and Lakers on his way to them, and also while having injury problems for many of those years, (had he been more durable, you wonder how many he could have had) are more impressive to me than Jordan's 6 with the better more experienced team every time. Who were the year in year out playoff teams who consistently had a solid core in the 90s? The Knicks?...who were good for like two years, led by a top 35 player at best, but were clearly the inferior team (the "sidekick" almost beat the best version of that team by himself and came to the rescue the year before)? The Jazz?...who were trash outside of past-his-prime Stockton and overrated ass Malone who missed every crucial shot when it mattered? This is some real elite competition :rolleyes:. Kareem/Wilt/Bird definitely wouldn't feast on these teams while having the best and most experienced team around them.

[Roundball_Rock]

"rings as the man" is usually used by ignorant fans of a certain player to oversimplify who the best ever was, without paying any attention to each player's situation, or applying any context. he has a legit case no doubt, but clowns act like it isn't even debatable. I just don't think there isn't much separating the top 5 or so players (they are all GOATs, pick a number for the best at any given time), but you still get Gretzky type "no contest" debates with Jordan.

Exactly. Give Kareem teams that could win 55 games, not 15 games, without him and then let's see who has more "rings as the man." Maybe it would be that other guy but at least then that would be a fair metric.

The equivalent to Gretzky in basketball would be a freak combination of Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Jordan. There is no one else in sports like that. In every other sport, whether it is golf, tennis, NASCAR racing, F1 racing, football, or baseball there is always a debate. Basketball is the freak exception where there are several people with equally strong cases, then a few others who have legit albeit weaker cases yet in the basketball universe one player is considered to be heads and shoulders better than the rest.


To be honest Bird's 3 rings in the 80s while having to go through the perennially great Sixers, Pistons, Bucks and Lakers on his way to them, and also while having injury problems for many of those years, (had he been more durable, you wonder how many he could have had) are more impressive to me than Jordan's 6 with the better more experienced team every time. Who were the year in year out playoff teams who consistently had a solid core in the 90s? The Knicks?...who were good for two years, but were clearly the inferior team (the "sidekick" almost beat the best version of that team by himself and came to the rescue the year before) led by a top 30 player at best? The Jazz?...who were trash outside of past-his-prime Stockton and overrated ass Malone who missed every crucial shot when it mattered? This is some real elite competition

I agree. The other side of the coin is who did you beat? They never look at that either. "He" has a legit case but :oldlol: @ the notion that he beat top flight competition. He faced a top 15 all-time player in the finals only once. The funny thing is if you cited competition in another sport no one would care. Go to SpeedTV's message board. Go to the NASCAR section and post a "Who is the GOAT?" thread. You will see several names debated, not one guy cited by 95% of people. I can guarantee the first response to someone citing "Richard Petty" will be "he won against weak competition." No one will go bananas over that because a strong case can be made for that. I've seen the same argument made in golf. Who did Tiger beat? Mickleson was never on his level and after Mickelson there is a drop off to the next group of players. The same thing in tennis with prime Federer. Only in basketball is it taboo to say it is harder to win a ring against Wilt or Bird than it is to win against Clyde Drexler.


Regarding "him", yeah the Knicks were his big, bad competition. Remember the hilarity in the 88' trade thread where the big, bad Knicks were going to beat Pippen/Kevin Johnson/Mitch Richmond/Rik Smits/Horace Grant even though Pippen/Grant came within 1 horrible call from doing so? :roll: Even his biggest fans cite the Knicks as his chief competition. Patrick Ewing. Great player but barely top 40 all-time.

[Fatal9]

I looked it up, all Wilt/Kareem games in the '72 series were televised on ABC. I wonder if footage still exists :(

[jlauber]

Fatal,

I'm not sure if the footage exists, but I have noticed that more-and-more footage is being released each year.

Incidently, I either watched, or listened to, EVERY Laker game in that '71-'72 season (KABC 790 with Chick Hearn and Lynn Schackleford...and Bob Weatherby playing the organ...)

In fact, I was amazed that Charley Rosen came out with a book on that season a few years back. It was truly a magical year. IMHO, that Laker team was the greatest of all-time. Counting the playoffs, they beat the 57-25 Bulls, 7-1; the 51-31 Warriors, 5-1 (including 129-99 and 162-99 wins); the Eastern Champ Knicks, 8-2; the 56-26 Celtics, 4-0; and the 63-19 Bucks, 8-3 (including a 115-90 win in game five.) They routed EVERY team at least once. They scored 100+ points in 81 of their 82 regular season games. They outscored their opponents by a 121.0-108.7 margin (+12.3 which is a record.) And, during their 33 game winning streak, they outscored their opps by +15.6 ppg, with only ten of those 33 wins less than double-digit wins.

Kareem did put up some huge scoring numbers on Wilt that year, including a 50 point game. And, while I don't have all the numbers, I believe Kareem battled Wilt pretty evenly on the glass...although Wilt was the league's best rebonder by a sizeable margin.

In the '72-'73 season, Chamberlain really held Kareem down, though (although Wilt had one game against Kareem in which he, himself, did not score a point...or even take a shot.)

Still, take a look at this footage...and imagine Wilt in his prime...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Also, here is compilation of Chamberlain's game five against the Knicks in the '72 Finals...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMyFm2wlsFA&feature=related


And, I just recently found this vintage footage...of Wilt vs. Gilmore in the '72 NBA=ABA All-Star game...which I actually watched live on TV that summer night...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1

[Fatal9]

How would you compare late Chamberlain's defensive impact to what Russell had at his peak? The number of blocks and from the limited footage I've seen, his impact seems just in that league. Physically he seems so much more imposing and a better fit to guard top centers (like Kareem). What about '71? I think Wilt might have even come away with better numbers in that series (he had several 20/20/10 type games against Kareem).

[jlauber]

In my humble...and albeit biased...opinion...

Wilt, in the 71-72 and 72-73 seasons, was BETTER than Russell was at his best. Why? Because Wilt did everything Russell had done in the 60's...rebound, defense, blocks, outlet passes (the '71-'72 Laker fast-break was probably the most devastating in NBA history)...AND, while Wilt's scoring dropped to career lows (14.8 and 13.2 ppg), his FG% numbers were staggering (.649, which is #5 All-time...and .727, which is the NBA record.)

As for the 70-71 season...I have mentioned it a few times...

That Buck team was among the greatest ever (I rank them at #4 behind the '72 Lakers, the '67 Sixers, and the '96 Bulls.) They not only went 66-16, they also outscored their opponents by +12.2, which is just behind the '72 Lakers and '96 Bulls. They also outshot their opposition by an NBA record differential of .085 (.509 - to .424.) AND, they went 12-2 in the post-season, outscoring their opponents by a record (I believe) of +14.5 ppg.

It was generally acknowledged that Wilt battled Kareem to a draw in that '70-'71 playoff series...but he was without both Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, and then also lost Keith Erickson in that series. And, with no supporting cast, Wilt's Lakers were blown out by the Bucks, 4-1. REMARKABLY, however, Wilt received a standing ovation as he was leaving the floor late in that final game loss...by the Milwaukee fans!

[jlauber]

Incidently,

I apologize for somewhat hijacking this thread.

And, I got to watch several of the Walton-Kareem games back in the 70's. There was never any question in my mind who the better player was, though. Kareem was more-skilled, and not only taller, but a better all-around athlete.

Still, Walton was a great all-around player. He was brilliant at the outlet pass, and he was good at every part of the game. And, I have always wondered how his 77-78 team would have fared had he not been injured in game 60. At that point they were 50-10, and after his season-ending injury, they finished 8-14 (58-24) and were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. Walton was never the same after that injury, although he did have a nice season as a backup on the '85-'86 Celtics.

And, while I would rate Alcindor as the greater college player (I have Alcindor at #1, with Walton at #2), IMHO, THE greatest game ever played in college basketball, was Walton in the '73 Finals...when he shot an astonishing 21-22 from the field, en route to a 44 point game. Walton was also the chief architect of the Bruin teams that would win 88 games in a row.

[Wuxia]

That game was pretty awesome. Walton's rebound then outlet pass is one of the best I have ever seen. The guy jumps up for the board and before he even lands, the ball is out of his hands and Portland is on the break.

[Roundball_Rock]

I apologize for somewhat hijacking this thread.

You aren't hijacking it at all. Threads evolve anyway. It is better to talk about Kareem, Walton, and Wilt than Lebron and Kobe. There are a million threads for that out there. :oldlol:

[Fatal9]

I was thinking, I bet Russell could never bother Kareem's shot, much less block it 3+ times a game like Wilt. And from extended game footage, Wilt's defensive impact does seem more impressive and intimidating. You wonder how the "who's better" comparison even exists when Wilt out of his prime in a similar role, might have been better than Russell ever was. He could defend equally well, if not better, he could pass better in the half court, score more efficiently within the flow of the game but takeover when needed (eg. Reed goes out and Wilt drops 45)...maybe 70s Wilt and prime Russell is a better comparison :oldlol:

I had the stats saved from that '71 series:

Game 1: Kareem - 32/22, 1 block Wilt: 20/22, 8 blocks
Game 2: Kareem - 22/11 Wilt - 24/20
Game 3: Kareem - 20/19 Wilt - 24/24
Game 4: Kareem - 31/20 Wilt - 15/16
Game 5: Kareem - 20/15, 3 blocks Wilt: 23/12, 6 blocks

Kareem hadn't peaked yet but very impressive for a 34 year old Wilt to hold his own, and maybe even outplay him like that.

[jlauber]

Fatal9,

You have become a very impressive resource for me (and perhaps, other's here, as well.) Thanks for posting those numbers. That is the first time that I have seen them in their entirety. I have a link which shows many of Wilt's point totals, as well as some comments about his highs in each season...

http://www.apbr.org/wilt.html

Here is another one, in which Harvey Pollack breaks down every H2H game between Russell and Wilt (it starts on page 270)...

http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Pollack_200607_Stats.pdf

In Wayne Lynch's 'Season of the Sixers", he has the actual box scores of the '67 Playoffs and Finals (which clearly shows Wilt with a HUGE edge in EVERY category over Russell, as well as a solid edge over Thurmond in the Finals...in fact, Wilt outshot Russell from the floor, .556-.358, and Thurmond, .560-.343)
Lynch's book also breaks down Wilt's season totals against every team that year, including FG% and assists.

In Charley Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, he has many of Wilt's stats for most of the games, as well as Kareem's numbers in their H2H matchups that season.

I have Wilt's books, as well, and he has some of his numbers against Russell and Kareem, too. And, Robert Cherry's autobiography on Wilt also includes some stat lines.

But, your's is the first full view of the Kareem (Alcindor) vs. Wilt games of the '71 post-season that I have come across.

Thanks for posting it.

Jeff

[97 bulls]

:cheers:
Do you know the "SECRET" of basketball? Have you read Simmon's the book of basketball?

You do not judge a player by points, rebounds and assists. These only account for at most 20% of what happens on the court. So perhaps Kareem did out rebound and outscore Walton. That's 15% of the game. There's still 85% unaccounted for..


Stuff like outlet passes, setting screens, floor spacing, help defense. Knowing that you have One of the GOAT's guarding you so you take less shots and act as a decoy to exploit the better matchups you have against the opposing team. These are things Walton did better than Kareem.

For example, there were many times during HS where I was the best player on the floor, however the other team's best player was guarding me, and I was only slightly better than him. However, the second best player on my team was WAY better than their second best player. So I would just act as a decoy and let my man work over his opponent. My stats would suffer but my team would win. Walton did stuff like this.

I'm not saying he outplayed him, I don't know. i haven't seen the whole series. I'm watching part of the game right now and I am just amazed by both players.
:cheers: great post sounds like something scottie pippen would do or did

[ThaRegul8r]

As for the 70-71 season...I have mentioned it a few times...

That Buck team was among the greatest ever (I rank them at #4 behind the '72 Lakers, the '67 Sixers, and the '96 Bulls.)

Wilt himself always said the '67 Sixers were better than the '72 Lakers:

[QUOTE=Wilt Chamberlain]We broke every record in the book that year

[ThaRegul8r]

How would you compare late Chamberlain's defensive impact to what Russell had at his peak? The number of blocks and from the limited footage I've seen, his impact seems just in that league. Physically he seems so much more imposing and a better fit to guard top centers (like Kareem).

On that note about being a better fit to guard top centers, after the Lakers completed their 15-1 postseason in 2001 with Shaq averaging 33 points on 57.3 percent shooting, 13.8 rebounds, 4.8 assists and 3.4 blocked shots against Defensive Player of the Year Dikembe Mutombo, Bill Sharman ranked the 2000-01 Lakers as the second-greatest team in history behind the '71-72 Lakers, saying: "Wilt is probably the only center in the history of the league who could guard Shaq."

[Duncan21formvp]

There is a common perception on this board that "Walton outplayed Kareem." Is this true?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCTQzI9uf5g&feature=related

Edit: the whole game is available. Search "1977 NBA WCF G4 Lakers@Blazers" on YT and all the videos will come up. There are 12 parts.

Game 4 is the only game I could find online from that series. How exactly was Kareem outplayed by Walton again? This was the 70's so they didn't update stats as much as today's television networks do but Kareem had something like 28 points to Walton's 19. They didn't mention rebounding but it easily appeared that Kareem outrebounded Walton as well. The only thing Walton did better than Kareem was passing. When Kareem went out the game with 5 fouls the Lakers were ahead by 4. That turned into a 6 point deficit in about three or four minutes before Kareem came back into the game and KAJ performed admirably despite playing with the handicap of five fouls. He had two or three blocks in the fourth quarter and contained Walton.

For the series Kareem averaged 35/17 despite constant double teams and even some triple teams. His team was vastly inferior to the point that even Musberger said they were "much less talented." How often do you hear an announcer make a comment like that? They try to be objective and "nice" so you can figure out how extreme the disparity was if it caused Musberger to say that they were not just less talented but much less talented. The Lakers had a better record but lost two starters due to injuries by the WCF. One was power forward Kermit Washington and the rest of the Lakers rebounded very poorly. After Kareem and Kermit the best rebounder LA had was a 4 boards per game guy. In contrast, Portland had a 20-11 all-star PF (in case you were wondering, Kareem was the only all-star on the Lakers). When the Lakers were healthy they did well against Portland. In the regular season they beat Portland 3-1, although to be fair Walton was hurt for two of those games and the Blazers lost both of them. Despite injuries, the games in the WCF were close. Three of the four games were decided by 6 points are less.

What about Walton? I don't know his WCF stats because we don't have game logs for back then and for some mysterious reason no one who says Walton>Kareem in the WCF ever posts his numbers...What we know is Walton averaged 18/15/5.5 in the playoffs. Kareem averaged 35/18/4 in the playoffs. Walton had the superior team by the WCF due to LA's injuries yet three of the four games were close. So how exactly did Walton outplay Kareem? Kareem did more with less. This smacks of the Wilt vs. Russell debate where one guy outplayed the other by a large margin but the lesser player had a superior "supporting cast" and that offset the dominance of the greater player.

Here is what one person who watched the entire series said. He was an ex-Blazer and was working as a Blazers commentator during the series. If he had any bias it would be in favor of Walton.

Snapper Jones on Kareem vs. Walton: "What battles? Bill lost them all. Bill Walton got his fanny kicked by Abdul-Jabbar. Kareem had no team around him. Portland killed the Lakers in the backcourt. But Abdul-Jabbar was still Abdul-Jabbar. He was great."

Walton had to outplay him when Kareem had the better record and got handled in that series.

[jlauber]

Regul8r,

BOTH the '71-'72 Lakers and '66-'67 76ers were great teams (incidently, Bill Simmons' does not even have that '76er team in his Top-10 BTW.)

Wilt does make a case about the 76er center being better than the Laker center. I think both you and I agree that Chamberlain's '67 season was the best in NBA history. The remainders of their respective rosters are close.

The 76er front line was better than LA's but mainly because of their "three-headed" monster combo of Jackson, Walker, and Cunningham. Still, Hairston was a better rebounder and offensive player than Jackson, and McMillian was under-rated (he had a 42 point game in the playoffs that year...and averaged 19.2 ppg for the season.) John Q. Trapp was a decent backup, but still, a solid edge has to go to the 76ers.

The Lakers would have just as big an advantage at the guard spot, though. Hal Greer was a great offensive player, but West was better. And West was a better passer and defender, too. Goodrich was considerably better than the streak-shooting Jones. Factor in that almost everyone on that Laker team felt that Flynn Robinson was the best pure shooter on the team, and throw in a tough defender in Pat Riley, and the Lakers are considerably stronger at the guard spot.

LA had better overall depth, too. LeRoy Ellis was a decent backup to Wilt, and could play forward, too. With Robinson, Trapp, and Riley, I think the edge has to go to LA.

Back to Wilt. I think the '72 Chamberlain, despite not being in the class of the '67 Wilt in all-around skills, had an edge in experience. Much like Russell, I think he made his teammates slightly better than '67 Wilt. Clearly, the '72 Wilt ignited that Laker fastbreak as well as anyone who has ever played the game.


The other reason I believe that the '72 Laker team was slightly better, was the fact that they dominated every team. The 76ers only held an 8-6 edge over Boston (albeit, 4-1 in the post-season.) The Lakers were 8-3 against the Bucks (4-2 in the post-season), and had no more than two losses against anyone else (in fact, in the regular season, without looking it up now, only Phoenix had more than one win against LA.) The Lakers had at least one rout of virtually every team that year. They also had a +12.3 point differential (Philly was around 9 in '67.) On top of that, they had that incredible 33 game winning streak.

True, there were seven more teams in '72, but there were also more quality teams, as well. In '67, it was really just Philly and Boston, with everyone else far behind. In '72, the Bucks went 63-19, Chicago went 57-25, Boston 56-26, SF 51-31, Phoenix 49-33, the Knicks 48-34, and Seattle 47-35...all better records than the rest of the '67 teams that finished behind Philly and Boston.


Incidently, for those that argue the '96 Bulls as the greatest ever...they were great. But compare them player-for-player with either '67 Philly or '72 LA, and the matchups are surprisingly even...except at the center position.

Anyone, I wouldn't squawk if someone suggested that the '67 Sixers were better than the '72 Lakers. I am slightly more biased to that Laker team, simply because I actually either listened to, or watched, EVERY game they played that year. I still consider it the my most memorable basketball season ever.

[jlauber]

Regarding the Walton-Kareem debate...

I have to admit that I have become a more educated person by reading some posts on this forum. I have always considered Wilt considerably better than Russell, and Kareem considerably better than Walton. I have long maintained that one-on-one, Wilt would have easily beaten Russell, and Kareem probably would have easily beaten Walton.

However, basketball is a TEAM game. And the more I read comments by Regula8r, GOAT, Roundball, Abe, Fatal, Jinxed, and other's the more I am beginning to understand that concept. Don't get me wrong, I have appreciated Russell's (and Walton's) greatness for years. But I always had a difficult time comprehending it. It just didn't make sense that Russell could be an 11 time winner. I could argue his surrounding talent, of course, but the more I read here, the more I am beginning to grasp what I SHOULD have understoood.

The term "Intangibles" has almost always been associated with Russell (and Walton), but the posters here have gone into enough detail where I realize how mistaken MY take has been all these years. Jinxed came up with an excellent commentary. And, with Russell's intelligence, it does make perfect sense. Russell, despite some of his own shortcomings, KNEW his and his team's strength's. He made his surrounding cast better by getting the ball to teammates who had a distinct offensive advantage over their counterparts...whether it was for one play, or for a series.

I was watching Russell's comments on YouTube (I won't take the time to find the link now), but in effect, he was always looking for advantages. And he knew how to minimize his own personnel's weaknesses, too. He would "cheat" to the side of a fellow teammate who was a little weaker defensively.

And, of course, he was a brilliant student of the game. He would study opponent's tendencies, and pick apart their weaknesses. I must say, that in a little over a month, I have learned a TON here. Russell's greatness goes WAY beyond the stats, or even the skills he had.

As for Walton...

I had the pleasure of watching many of his games at UCLA. Surprisingly, while he was considered a talented player entering UCLA, and after his freshman year, he was not considered anything near the best player in college entering his soph season. By the end of that season, many felt he was already among the greatest to ever play at the college level.

His college scoring numbers were deceptive. He and Alcindor were somewhat shackled by Wooden's TEAM philosophy...as well as the fact that their teams had so MANY blowout wins, AND, that there was no shot clock back then. BUT, both could have been 30+ ppg scorers (Alcindor probably could have scored 40+.)

And while I think Alcindor was more skilled offensively, and more physically talented, I really believe that Walton was a better all-around player. He was brilliant with the outlet pass, as well as half-court passing. He also moved very well without the ball, and almost always seemed to be in position for rebounds. I also think that Walton, like Russell, made his teammates better.

Don't get me wrong. You could put Kareem, or Wilt, on ANY team, and they would immediately become a title contender. They were both so dominant INDIVIDUALLY, that they could carry teams. And both became very good teammates, too. But, players like Russell and Walton made their teammates better. Maybe the old argument that the sum was greater than the parts.

Before I continue, I have to say that so MANY topics, and the posters who post them here are a complete waste. Many of the posters are uneducated, or overly emotional, or just sorrily lacking in any knowledge of the subjects in which they post or comment.

Having said that though, I have found several posters here to be refreshingly intelligent, and extremely knowledgeable of the history of the game. And I have been educated by them. Which is really the bottom line on these discussions. I tip my cap to those of you here who have provided indepth analysis', along with facts and logic. I have really enjoyed the exchanges.

[Jinxed]

Jlauber,

it's been great listening to your stories of actually watching those old games live. You are so lucky to have been able to do that. It reminds me of when I used to ask my grandfather about watching Babe Ruth play in person and ask him how Babe would have done if he played baseball today..."Imagine if Babe Ruth lifted weights and took steroids! He'd probably hit 100 home runs today" was his reply.

[jlauber]

Jinxed,

I do feel very fortunate to have grown up in the 60's and 70's. Think about it...The Celtic Dinasty, the Packer Dynasty, the Bruin Dynasty; Maris in '61, McLain in '68, Gibson in '68, OJ in 2003, Maravich from '68-'70, Wilt in '62; the '61 Yanks, the '62 Packers, the '67 76ers, the '68 Bruins, the '72 Bruins, the '72 Lakers '71 Nebraska, '72 USC; the Lakers' 33 game winning streak, UCLA's 88 game winning streak; Ali-Frazier, Russell-Wilt, Hayes-Alcindor, Kareem-Wilt, McLain-Gibson; Michigan St. vs Notre Dame in '66, NU vs OU in '71, Houston vs UCLA in the Astrodome, and again in the NCAA Semis, '74 NC St. vs UCLA (twice); Wooden, Lombardi, Auerbach; Jim Brown, Starr, Unitas, OJ, Sayers, Mays, Koufax, Mantle, Gibson, Oscar, West, Russell, Kareem, Wilt, and so MANY more.

Once again, though, I appreciate your insightful post on the TEAM concept. Your analysis demonstrated why the "winners" like Russell and Walton were able to lead their teams to titles. And Reg mentioned it in another topic a while back...Russell's brilliance sent several teammates to the HOF. GOAT pretty much echoed your commentary in another post, as well. Russell put his teammates into better positions, and situations, and took advantage of their strengths, while minimizing their weaknesses. He made them ALL better in the process.

Wilt and Kareem were just individually dominant that they it took them longer to understand Russell's mentality. IMHO, Wilt became a better Russell later in his career ('72.) And, I think Chamberlain was unfairly branded a "loser" and a "choker" throughout his career. As GOAT pointed out, if there had been no Russell, Wilt probably would have won 6-10 championships in his career. And Regul8r stated that Russell did whatever it took to win. IMHO, Chamberlain's close calls against the greatest Dynasty in professional sport's history should be applauded, and not criticized. But, it had to be more than a coincidence that Russell's teams won all those close games.

Abe has pointed out (as well as other's) that had Chamberlain played like he did in the '67 season, his entire career, that he would have won more championships. IMHO, that was the greatest individual season in NBA history. Still, it seemed like Wilt lost focus all too often, while Russell just could not accept losing.

Kareem's NBA career mirrored much of Wilt's. He won a championship in only his second season, and many "experts" predicted that his Bucks would be the next great dynasty. However, he had a couple of brilliant seasons, in which he dominated the league, but his team's came up short, and then seemed to lose interest after that. He could still light up any center in the league when he was motivated, but overall, he under-achieved. It wasn't until Magic came along, that Kareem was "reborn."

Magic was another Russell. He made all of his teammates better. He brought out the best in players like Worthy and Scott. Those players benefitted by getting many easy baskets throughout their careers. Here again, Magic was a "winner." And in big games, or in critical moments, he rose to the occasion.

Anyway, and once again, I appreciate your comments.

[G.O.A.T]

^ Really great comments, refreshing to see someone who is trying to understand and learn from others, especially one with so much knowledge of his\her own to share.

Sifting through the dust to find the diamonds here is occasionally worth it.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

As I stated in another thread, I am a relative "newbie" here, and IMHO, much of what is posted here is waste of time. But as you said, sifting thru the majority of garbage here yields some truly brilliant observations and opinions.

I already commented on your Top-100 list in that thread, but it is worth repeating here. Your research and information is probably the best that I have ever read. I sincerely believe that you should publish it when it is completed.

And one more time...a shout out to the several other's here who have actually contributed quality research and insight in this thread. It is really refreshing to have an intelligent discussion on these topics. It is not often that that occurs. Far too often these "debates" are ruined by childish, or overly emotional, or even downright stupid posters.

Once again, kudos to quality of posters on this topic. I know that I appreciate the education. It is refreshing to actually learn something, instead of automatically dismissing other's opinions.

[Fatal9]

Since this thread has become general Kareem/Russell/Wilt talk...thought I'd add this video...

I am with jlauber. I watched some Russell footage and didn't see his impact being any more than that of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and other centers. I finally found a great extended clip though, and am amazed at all the things Russell did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrkMBXc-dA&#t=9m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAYFRHxV43M

maybe the best help defense I've seen anyone play. he changes literally every shot in the vicinity, and his agility allows him to surprise so many players into changing shots. the fact that he is key in moving the ball on offense makes me wonder if Wilt could in fact ever play Russell's role as well as he did. Hakeem as great as he was defensively, didn't know when the right time to go for a block was. Too many times he'd go for it while neglecting rebounding while no one else was there to box out (I'm a big fan of young Hakeem especially and I see this a lot). Russell's offense also seems to have a worse reputation than it deserves (the things he did beside scoring are huge and he could give you the occasional half court postup). I do have to give GOAT credit though, I still think Wilt/Kareem are better but wow, Russell was that good. You might have already seen it jlauber but if you haven't make sure you check it out. Oscar goes on a scoring binge in the first two parts of this video btw (scores 24 pts in the first half).

[jlauber]

Now that is what I am talking about!!

Just a beautiful example of Russell's impact on the game. I have no idea how many shots he blocked, or altered, in that footage, but it must have been double-digits...and that was just in the recorded portions of that game. That block on Oscar's layup was incredible. There is just no way anyone else blocks that shot.

The more I see and read on Russell, the more it makes perfect sense...he was probably the most intelligent player, in terms of pure basketball court strategy, that has ever played the game. In one sequence he taps an offensive rebound across his body to a wide-open teammate at the FT line, in which he never made eye-contact.

And I agree with you about his offensive skills...he was very under-rated. I was involved in a discussion with a Russell fan a few months ago, and he stated that Russell's career FG% was very deceptive. His reasoning was that while Russell missed shots, he also rebounded his misses. He might miss two shots on one possession, but he would ultimately tap it in...33.3%, but 100% on that possession.

And I also agree with you, about Wilt and Kareem probably being better overall, I would find their margin much closer than what I would have reasoned just a few weeks ago. In fact, I would not put up much of an argument to anyone who would suggest Russell was a better TEAM player, and thus, perhaps a better player.

Regarding Oscar...what a smooth, skilled, highly fundamental player! Aside from that super-natural block by Russell, and another near block by Russell, Oscar's offense and passing were nearly flawless. I remember Chick Hearn, when comparing Oscar and West, made the comment that Robertson seldom made mistakes, and was a more consistent player...while West was not as fundamentally as sound, but was more explosive.

I'm not sure if the Royals were the first team to do it, but they were probably the most successful...they would clear one side of the floor so that Oscar could go one-on-one on the other side. It was just unfortunate that Roberston played on so many average-at-best teams in his career.

Great stuff!

[juju151111]

Since this thread has become general Kareem/Russell/Wilt talk...thought I'd add this video...

I am with jlauber. I watched some Russell footage and didn't see his impact being any more than that of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and other centers. I finally found a great extended clip though, and am amazed at all the things Russell did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrkMBXc-dA&t=9m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAYFRHxV43M

maybe the best help defense I've seen anyone play. he changes literally every shot in the vicinity, and his agility allows him to surprise so many players into changing shots. the fact that he is key in moving the ball on offense makes me wonder if Wilt could in fact ever play Russell's role as well as he did. Hakeem as great as he was defensively, didn't know when the right time to go for a block was. Too many times he'd go for it while neglecting rebounding while no one else was there to box out (I'm a big fan of young Hakeem especially and I see this a lot). Russell's offense also seems to have a worse reputation than it deserves (the things he did beside scoring are huge and he could give you the occasional half court postup). I do have to give GOAT credit though, I still think Wilt/Kareem are better but wow, Russell was that good. You might have already seen it jlauber but if you haven't make sure you check it out. Oscar goes on a scoring binge in the first two parts of this video btw (scores 24 pts in the first half).
I want more clips of 86-90 Hakeem. HE WAS A MONSTER.

[Fatal9]

Do you think the most similar player to Oscar is Larry Bird and not someone like Lebron or Magic? I never got the Lebron comparison, he puts up similar modern day stats but his game isn't anything like Oscar's.

Oscar reminds me of a PG version of Larry Bird from that game and others I've seen. At 6'5 he almost always had a size advantage, just like Bird did at 6'9 vs other SFs. They made great use of the mid-post game and as a result they score in a very similar manner, just at different positions. Bird always had that same "go to" move as Oscar, dribble dribble in the mid post area and simply rise up to shoot over the smaller defender, and if defender has some length, diverting to a stepback/fallaway. Both are obviously two of the best midrange shooters in history, and I really think their scoring is much alike. They were also of course two of the finest all around players ever. Oscar could obviously lead the fastbreak better, but his passing in the half court is very reminiscent of Bird, he made a couple of beautiful bounce passes in the lane to find cutters ala Bird. It's weird to me this comparison doesn't get brought up more often. Couple more highlights from part 3...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe3zWQqV554&#t=4m35s - Russell going full court to score himself. Remarkable speed and ball handling from a center.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe3zWQqV554&#t=5m40s - Oscar hits a near impossible shot over Russell.

[KevinNYC]

I'm reviving this to say, this is an AWESOME thread.

Also, to the point of if Wooden said Walton was better than Kareem, I believe, that Wooden said, Walton when healthy was the most complete center if ever coached.

In the quote, Walton talks about 10 Fundamentals of Basketball (http://books.google.com/books?id=MFq-X33mLGYC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=wooden+healthy+walton+complete&source=bl&ots=9dN9VifcYq&sig=mODSs9oPNDXzyyJ44KN8oYcQSh4&hl=en&ei=KBZTTd72LYL98AaW9_TDCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false) and that Walton would be high on every one. That means Kareem might be much higher on some. I think I remember video of Wooden using the word complete.

That footage of the 1966 finals is awesome. I really enjoy the sound effect they are using for the ball hitting the floor.

Somebody mentioned how fast Russell was on the fast break. He was a track and field star (400 m and high jump) and he thought he might be the fastest guy in the league.

[PHILA]

Since this thread has become general Kareem/Russell/Wilt talk...thought I'd add this video...

I am with jlauber. I watched some Russell footage and didn't see his impact being any more than that of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem and other centers. I finally found a great extended clip though, and am amazed at all the things Russell did...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgrkMBXc-dA&#t=9m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAYFRHxV43M

maybe the best help defense I've seen anyone play. he changes literally every shot in the vicinity, and his agility allows him to surprise so many players into changing shots. the fact that he is key in moving the ball on offense makes me wonder if Wilt could in fact ever play Russell's role as well as he did. Hakeem as great as he was defensively, didn't know when the right time to go for a block was. Too many times he'd go for it while neglecting rebounding while no one else was there to box out (I'm a big fan of young Hakeem especially and I see this a lot). Russell's offense also seems to have a worse reputation than it deserves (the things he did beside scoring are huge and he could give you the occasional half court postup). I do have to give GOAT credit though, I still think Wilt/Kareem are better but wow, Russell was that good. You might have already seen it jlauber but if you haven't make sure you check it out. Oscar goes on a scoring binge in the first two parts of this video btw (scores 24 pts in the first half).And now you have ranked Russell at #9. :no:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5428759&postcount=53

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5429163&postcount=62

[RainierBeachPoet]

Wow, thanks for posting this. I haven't seen much of Prime WAlton, probably because there isn't much of it out there.

i had seen prime walton

that '77 club was a tremendous TEAM because of him and his all around game. he sacrificed points so that the team could flourish. with walton at the high post and passing abilities, it was very difficult for teams to defend the blazers

statistically, kareem was great. but the overall games that year, walton was the best regarding winning and the team game

[dunksby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj5F0vT_dWo