Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

[Lebron23]

Lakers forward Ron Artest doesn't think the Cavaliers would be a playoff team without LeBron James.

"Actually I thought about that [Thursday]," Artest told CBS Sports.

"If you take LeBron off that team, no. They're not. They're nothing. Not that they're nothing, they're still human beings. But you take him off that team, no. I guess that's why they got me, to take him out of the game. [Thursday] it didn't work. They got us this year, so all we can do is move on from that and see what happens in the playoffs."

Artest, a Queensbridge native, added that his hometown Knicks need some star power.

"No disrespect to Cleveland, but we need some star power here in New York," he added. "We need some legit star power, so I can come down and beat up on 'em. We still need some star power here in New York. We need one of those big-time players to come here and get a great team, and when the Lakers play the Knicks, we beat 'em by like 40 or 50 points. It would be great hopefully one day to see a New York-L.A. championship. I don't have any power to do that, but it would be nice."


http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64231/20100123/artest_cleveland_is_nothing_without_lebron/

[Dresta]

Well he's right.

[Roundball_Rock]

When he got hurt two years ago his team went 0-8 without him (well, he played in one of the games but did not start due to injury and played only 23 minutes). With him they were on pace for 50 wins (61% win rate). What does that tell you? Artest is right. That team would not win 30 games without Lebron. They may not even win 20. Mo Williams as your best player? :roll: What Lebron is doing is amazing. It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.

[cotdt]

They don't have much offense outside of Lebron but they have a lot of solid role players who can play good defense. Would still be a good team.

[Brujesino]

hes pretty much making the case for lebron to be the mvp

[Meticode]

hes pretty much making the case for lebron to be the mvp

Yea, Artest is dissing Kobe. I'd be pissed if I was Kobe.

[Take Your Lumps]

Not that they're nothing, they're still human beings.

:roll:

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron.

He's right though. LA, ORL, BOS are all way better and deeper teams than CLE without their best players.

[Roundball_Rock]

They don't have much offense outside of Lebron but they have a lot of solid role players who can play good defense. Would still be a good team.

They have the #6 defense. The Bucks and Bulls have the #8 and #9 defenses, respectively and they are both below .500 and they are both more talented than the Cavs sans Lebron. Plus, you have to assume that without Lebron their defense would not be as good. In 2008 they had the #11 defense and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between #11 and #8 (106.4 D rating vs. 106.0). What did they do without Lebron? 0-8.

[50inchvertical]

Daniel Gibson hit the game winner tonight, ****er!

[Abd El-Krim]

"they're still human beings" awesome.

[JustinJDW]

What the **** is this guy talkin about? Seriously, just shut up already.

[Diesel J]

They don't have much offense outside of Lebron but they have a lot of solid role players who can play good defense. Would still be a good team.


No they wouldn't:lol

[crisoner]

Well he's right.


I second that.

[thejumpa]

He is right and isn't even being disrespectful. LeBron should take that as a semi-compliment. LeBron is one of the few players that can take a cast of borderline-nobodys (rookies, aged vet's, so so players) and make them winners. It isn't all LeBron, but he does a lot of the work and has brought that team a long way. Still, he needs some help. I say get Jamison and make a real title run.

[imdaman99]

if you give that team time to gel and a motivated shaq, i say they could contend for the 7th or 8th seed in the east. what amount of wins does that require? certainly not 50 wins. you get 35 in the east you're in the playoffs. they still play very good D and yeah they wouldnt have someone to dominate the ball in the 4th quarters, but they would be a richer man's version of this year's knicks. knicks are 1.5 games behind the 8th spot. of course they wouldnt have the best record in the game (well close 2nd), but i still think they could contend with the knicks and bulls and raptors.

[Roundball_Rock]

knicks are 1.5 games behind the 8th spot. of course they wouldnt have the best record in the game (well close 2nd), but i still think they could contend with the knicks and bulls and raptors.

Look at the players those teams have. They are all much more talented than the Cavs without Lebron. Just look at their best players. Mo Williams is not nearly as good as David Lee, Derrick Rose, and Chris Bosh. Mo Williams arguably would not even be the second best player on those teams!

[TheGreatDeraj]

They would be a better version of the Houston Rockets.

Williams/gibson
West/parker
parker/J. Williams
Varajao/Hickson
Shaq/Z

[artex]

itll be funny once lebron leaves all the cav band wagoners gonna move with him

[imdaman99]

Look at the players those teams have. They are all much more talented than the Cavs without Lebron. Just look at their best players. Mo Williams is not nearly as good as David Lee, Derrick Rose, and Chris Bosh. Mo Williams arguably would not even be the second best player on those teams!
i like david lee, i enjoy watching him play. but hes vastly overrated on this board because at the end of the night he always has pretty numbers. hes not finishing games for the knicks, hes not putting his teammates on his back to close out the games. i do believe derrick rose and bosh are studs to finish off games though.

[tmac_no1]

true story

[Fudge]

What the **** is this guy talkin about? Seriously, just shut up already.
He's right about everything he said. You mad?:oldlol:

[Manute for Ever!]

itll be funny once lebron leaves all the cav band wagoners gonna move with him

He's not going anywhere :banghead:


i like david lee, i enjoy watching him play. but hes vastly overrated on this board because at the end of the night he always has pretty numbers. hes not finishing games for the knicks, hes not putting his teammates on his back to close out the games. i do believe derrick rose and bosh are studs to finish off games though.

But he does other things that a team needs that Rose doesn't do (Bosh does, however) and that is hustle, play defense and rebound, under-appreciated aspects of the game. Players that do those things are my favourites to watch and are generally almost as valuable to a team as the player that has the traits you mentioned.

[Diesel J]

He's right about everything he said. You mad?:oldlol:


Yeah, he's mad:lol

[cotdt]

They have the #6 defense. The Bucks and Bulls have the #8 and #9 defenses, respectively and they are both below .500 and they are both more talented than the Cavs sans Lebron. Plus, you have to assume that without Lebron their defense would not be as good. In 2008 they had the #11 defense and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between #11 and #8 (106.4 D rating vs. 106.0). What did they do without Lebron? 0-8.

No surprise they can't win without Lebron, as the whole team is built around him. Without Lebron there would be nobody to run the team. Doesn't mean the team can't win if there is a new system to suit the remaining players, or if they brought in someone else that can run the team.

[YAWN]

so this is assuming lebron is out for the whole season? or leaves the team and they spend the 17 million on someone else? If the latter, im sure whoever they find thats pulling that kind of salary would lead them to the playoffs in the east.. but yes if lebron went down with an injury then the team would hit a big losing streak.

[Force]

He's right..Lebron has distanced himself from everybody else as the worlds best player at this moment in time...The Cavs would win 30 games without him

[RoseCity07]

Artest speaking the truth again. They are nothing with out Lebron.

[1~Gibson~1]

Daniel Gibson hit the game winner tonight, ****er!:rockon:

They would be a better version of the Houston Rockets.

Williams/gibson
West/parker
parker/J. Williams
Varajao/Hickson
Shaq/ZMoon would start

Mo / Gibson
Parker / West - 6th man
Moon / Jawad
JJ / Varejao / Powe
Shaq / Z

itll be funny once lebron leaves all the cav band wagoners gonna move with himonce?? you mean IF.

[crisoner]

:rockon:
Moon would start

Mo / Gibson
Parker / West - 6th man
Moon / Jawad
JJ / Varejao / Powe
Shaq / Z
once?? you mean IF.


IF the Cavs don't win it all this year what is the likelihood of Bron staying in Cleveland do you think? I say it is a 85% chance he is NY bound.

[1~Gibson~1]

IF the Cavs don't win it all this year what is the likelihood of Bron staying in Cleveland do you think? I say it is a 85% chance he is NY bound.
the hell if i know.

im not LeBron therefore i dont know what the hell he's thinking. but if anything i think he'll be leaning more towards Cleveland than New York.

[batneg12]

Still better than the Nets.

[Samurai Swoosh]

It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.
Don't forget Jordan ... cause even when Pippen was turning into a star caliber player, and even when he reached star player status when Jordan was out (which was rare to begin with) the Bulls looked like a dramatically different team.

[Swaggin916]

:roll:

Thanks for clearing that up, Ron.

He's right though. LA, ORL, BOS are all way better and deeper teams than CLE without their best players.

Yea I liked that quote :lol

[oh the horror]

When he got hurt two years ago his team went 0-8 without him (well, he played in one of the games but did not start due to injury and played only 23 minutes). With him they were on pace for 50 wins (61% win rate). What does that tell you? Artest is right. That team would not win 30 games without Lebron. They may not even win 20. Mo Williams as your best player? :roll: What Lebron is doing is amazing. It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.



Dude come on now. You're outrageously over exaggerating.


Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?

[insidious301]

Dude come on now. You're outrageously over exaggerating.


Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?

Yea, I dont agree with that either. I guess some people dont value intangibles outside of PPG (though Mo is a formidable #2 option). Cleveland has good rebounders, great team defense, and superb outside shooters (Parker shooting 47% from 3, Mo 42%, Gibson at 48%).

[oh the horror]

I think Cleveland is very capable of somewhere in the 40s, as far as wins are concerned. This team isnt filled with bums.....they play well for a reason. Lebron James is the best player in the entire league, but hes still a man, for christs sake.

[Manute for Ever!]

Don't forget Jordan ... cause even when Pippen was turning into a star caliber player, and even when he reached star player status when Jordan was out (which was rare to begin with) the Bulls looked like a dramatically different team.

He is a Pippen fanboy and a Jordan hater, you know he will never give MJ credit.

[Roundball_Rock]

He is a Pippen fanboy and a Jordan hater, you know he will never give MJ credit.

Ok. If MJ left his team would win 25 games and miss the playoffs without him. Happy?


Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?

I could see them in the 25-30 wins range. It has happened before. Lebron is playing on a GOAT candidate level right now and he makes his teammates better. It isn't just his 30/7/8 and defense.

Take Lebron off the team. How many teams in the L would have a worse best player than Mo Williams? You can't say they are stacked from man 3-down either. Old Shaq? Sideshow Bob? Big Z? Delonte West with all his problems? Can you name 16 teams they would be better than? 20? 25? You don't need to explain it. Just list teams.

I say all these teams in bold clearly>the Cavs without Lebron. Some of the others are debatable. This is speculation. We won't know for sure unless he gets hurt for an extended period of time or leaves in the summer.

Western W ▾ L
LA Lakers C 33 10
Dallas C 28 15
Denver C 28 14
Portland C 26 18
San Antonio C 25 17
Phoenix C 25 19
Houston C 24 18
Oklahoma City C 24 19
Utah C 24 18
New Orleans C 23 19
Memphis C 23 19
LA Clippers C 19 23
Sacramento C 15 27
Golden State C 13 28
Minnesota C 9 35

Cleveland C 33 11
Orlando C 28 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Toronto C 22 22
Miami C 22 20
Charlotte C 21 20
Chicago C 19 22
New York C 17 25
Milwaukee C 17 24
Indiana C 15 28
Detroit C 15 27
Washington C 14 28
Philadelphia C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 39

[ILLsmak]

I think they'd make the playoffs...


-Smak

[artest 93]

I think they'd make the playoffs...


-Smak

There is absolutely no way a team with the trio of a nearly retired Ilgauskas, West, and Williams make the playoffs. I would like to see this team even try to run their offense without LeBron. It would be hilarious. They wouldn't be able to beat the Knicks, either.

Speculation is best made based on talent available/remaining, and not on opinion.

[ILLsmak]

1. They are in the east.

2. It's not that somehow every player on the Cavs is a scrub and can only play with LeBron, it's that LeBron is so good that everyone understands they have to play off him.

You don't think Shaq, JJ, Paker (or Moon, or Jawad), West, and Mo would make the playoffs?

They could run a post oriented offense. This is a team of vets who know how to win...

No one player can make that big of a difference in a team.

-Smak

[oh the horror]

Saying that Lebron alone, is responsible for 40+ wins for this team is outrageous on a human scale alone.

[BigTicket]

Cleveland without Lebron is designed to be a great supporting cast, not to run the show on their own, so it's not really a fair question.

But Artest is not wrong. Without Lebron you would be looking at a team where Mo Williams is the #1 option, and Shaq is the only other guy in the starting lineup who can score. I don't see how that team makes the playoffs.

Basically the team they would have to beat for the #8 spot is the Bucks, so which team is better:

Cavs:
PG-Mo Williams
SG-Anthony Parker
SF-Jamario Moon
PF-JJ Hickson
C-Shaquille O'Neal

Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Daniel Gibson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Bucks:
PG-Brandon Jennings
SG-Michael Redd
SF-Carlos Delfino
PF-Ersan Ilyasova
C-Andrew Bogut

Luke Ridnour
Hakim Warrick
Charlie Bell
Luc Richard Mbah a Moute

[momo]

http://lakers.freedomblogging.com/files/2009/08/ron-artest-in-hangzhou-by-getty-0806091.jpg

[lilgodfather1]

Without James the Cavs would struggle to pull out 30 wins. I doubt the playoffs would be feasible. It's not so much that LeBron is worth 35+ wins, it is because without LeBron the team has no facilitator. People bring up Boobie, Mo and Parkers shooting, well how would they be shooting without as many open looks. Mo would be getting doubled every time down the floor, and Shaq would be still Shaq averaging the same numbers. JJ would score much much less and Varajao offensively would be useless as most of his points come off of James passes. Z would probobally just retire, or give up.

[YAWN]

Take Lebron off the team. How many teams in the L would have a worse best player than Mo Williams? You can't say they are stacked from man 3-down either. Old Shaq? Sideshow Bob? Big Z? Delonte West with all his problems? Can you name 16 teams they would be better than? 20? 25? You don't need to explain it. Just list teams.

I say all these teams in bold clearly>the Cavs without Lebron. Some of the others are debatable. This is speculation. We won't know for sure unless he gets hurt for an extended period of time or leaves in the summer.

Western W ▾ L
LA Lakers C 33 10
Dallas C 28 15
Denver C 28 14
Portland C 26 18
San Antonio C 25 17
Phoenix C 25 19
Houston C 24 18
Oklahoma City C 24 19
Utah C 24 18
New Orleans C 23 19
Memphis C 23 19
LA Clippers C 19 23
Sacramento C 15 27
Golden State C 13 28
Minnesota C 9 35

Cleveland C 33 11
Orlando C 28 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Toronto C 22 22
Miami C 22 20
Charlotte C 21 20
Chicago C 19 22
New York C 17 25
Milwaukee C 17 24
Indiana C 15 28
Detroit C 15 27
Washington C 14 28
Philadelphia C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 39

what is this all supposed to prove...?

if lebron bolts they are not even going to try and put a solid team out there? Replace lebron with danny granger and the team is still fighting for the 3 or 4 seed in the east.

lebron is playing some of the best basketball i have ever seen, but some of you guys are going overboard. its almost as bad as when espn creates random stat scenarios that lebron tops for the sole purpose of worshipping.

[oh the horror]

Without James the Cavs would struggle to pull out 30 wins. I doubt the playoffs would be feasible. It's not so much that LeBron is worth 35+ wins, it is because without LeBron the team has no facilitator. People bring up Boobie, Mo and Parkers shooting, well how would they be shooting without as many open looks. Mo would be getting doubled every time down the floor, and Shaq would be still Shaq averaging the same numbers. JJ would score much much less and Varajao offensively would be useless as most of his points come off of James passes. Z would probobally just retire, or give up.



REALLY?! :roll:


Come on guys. Its not that black and white.

[TROLL_HUNTER]

There is no doubt that Lebron is Today the player who has the most impact on the game. this is not even questionnable. Put Lebron in a normal-average good team as Grizzlies this season and they will become title contenders automatically. Regardless that being in East is easier than the West, which is more stacked not having Lebron would make the cavs a no-chance team. wether they reached the playoffs or not it would be irrelevant cos u would know for sure they would never make it to the Finals. no way in hell.

Seriously I dont get the point of Lakers fans which try to overrate Lebron's teammates just to make the gap between him and Kobe shorter. Today Lebron is the very best. Everybody outside biased fans are certain about this.

[RedBlackAttack]

Pretty stupid comments by Ron Ron, which certainly isn't a surprise. The Cavaliers' organization have built the team around LeBron's skillset. You need to surround him with good outside shooters (Mo, AP, Z, Boobie, Delonte), hustle guys (AV), defensive assets and teammates that aren't too insecure to take a backseat.

Sure... A team full of big names may look better, on paper, but there aren't many supporting casts that would actually fit LeBron's style of play as well as the Cavs.... If any at all.

And, yes... Take LeBron off of the Cavs and they are average at best. But, the team has been built around LeBron and he is the catalyst for everything. Take that away and they may struggle... What a shocking development.

[Magic Vinsanity]

They wouldnt get nearly as many calls without James, that alone makes them better. You cant breathe near Le***** without a whistle.

[miller-time]

so can i infer that lakers without kobe are still something?

and going with that idea. lebron > kobe

nice work ron.

[BigTicket]

They wouldnt get nearly as many calls without James, that alone makes them better. You cant breathe near Le***** without a whistle.

Oh please, Dwight gets more FT's than Lebron, even though he takes less than half as many shots. And that's not even counting all the offensive fouls he gets away with.

Meanwhile Durant and Melo get the exact same amount of calls as Lebron, and noone complains about that.

[sekachu]

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64231/20100123/artest_cleveland_is_nothing_without_lebron/


So cleveland is not gonna win this year, is that mean by artest?

[Real Men Wear Green]

They're nothing. Not that they're nothing, they're still human beings.
Am I the only one that could imagine Mike Tyson saying something like this? I bet they have similar types of insanity if anyone has bothered to diagnose them yet.

Yea, Artest is dissing Kobe. I'd be pissed if I was Kobe.
He should shoot him in the ass. Rape his dog. No end to the vengeance for this colossal insult.

[GOBB]

Clevland wouldnt win 40+ gms without Bron. And with the East being weak saying playoffs? I wouldnt rule it impossible but when you look at thier playoff push? They'll be a team like 2-3gms out of the 8th seed yet below .500 team record wise. Team isnt full of bums/scrubs but alot of how that team was built was due to having Lebron James. Mo Williams isnt setting up guys, running an offense like the position in which he plays. Team full of shooters, spot up shooters. And last I checked? Shaq isnt the Shaq of old.

28-33 wins is the range I see for that Clevland team.

[All Net]

Pretty stupid comments by Ron Ron, which certainly isn't a surprise. The Cavaliers' organization have built the team around LeBron's skillset. You need to surround him with good outside shooters (Mo, AP, Z, Boobie, Delonte), hustle guys (AV), defensive assets and teammates that aren't too insecure to take a backseat.

Sure... A team full of big names may look better, on paper, but there aren't many supporting casts that would actually fit LeBron's style of play as well as the Cavs.... If any at all.

And, yes... Take LeBron off of the Cavs and they are average at best. But, the team has been built around LeBron and he is the catalyst for everything. Take that away and they may struggle... What a shocking development.

Agree completely.

Lebron's supporting cast may not be all-stars but they are perfect fits for him. full of shooters and hard working hussle guys.

[Pharcyde]

Agree completely.

Lebron's supporting cast may not be all-stars but they are perfect fits for him. full of shooters and hard working hussle guys.
No it's not.

[All Net]

No it's not.

No it's not what? your post made zero sense.

[mlh1981]

I think any team with Shaq, and his reputation, could still field a somewhat respectable squad, and there has to be some sort of ruboff from all the winning they do. There is a winning pedigree in place, but yes, without LeBron, the Cavs would be in big trouble. Artest isn't saying anything groundbreaking here.

[Pharcyde]

No it's not what? your post made zero sense.
They aren't "perfect fits".

[lilgodfather1]

REALLY?! :roll:


Come on guys. Its not that black and white.
Let me walk through this slowly. If Mo was the first option on offense, he would be doubled like almost every other first option is. Shaq still could be effective and IMO would be effective. Moon would replace Bron in the starting line, Moon is a boneheaded guy that plays good D and has great athletics. Andy gets a lot of his points from going to the basket and Bron passing him the ball, same with JJ. The Cavs would be complete garbage without Bron, they would only have two players that can create shots, Mo and Delonte if he doesn't get a heavy suspension that is.

[Knoe Itawl]

There is no doubt that Lebron is Today the player who has the most impact on the game. this is not even questionnable. Put Lebron in a normal-average good team as Grizzlies this season and they will become title contenders automatically. Regardless that being in East is easier than the West, which is more stacked not having Lebron would make the cavs a no-chance team. wether they reached the playoffs or not it would be irrelevant cos u would know for sure they would never make it to the Finals. no way in hell.

Seriously I dont get the point of Lakers fans which try to overrate Lebron's teammates just to make the gap between him and Kobe shorter. Today Lebron is the very best. Everybody outside biased fans are certain about this.


Kobe Fanboys are an especially stubborn lot. Anyone with any sense realizes the talent difference between LA and Cleveland is huge, yet Bron might still pull off the upset (and already beat them twice this year). Give him a team with the talent of LA? It wouldn't even be fair.

And deep down the fanboys know this.

[RaceBannana]

hes pretty much making the case for lebron to be the mvp

:lol

Exactly my thoughts.... way to boost Kobe chances for the MVP, Ron.....

[Indian guy]

Agree completely.

Lebron's supporting cast may not be all-stars but they are perfect fits for him. full of shooters and hard working hussle guys.

I think the 'perfect fit' would be the one that actually helps him win a championship. For now, he's got good shooters and a great defense around him. But Cleveland still has quite a few flaws for a contender. An average 2nd option in 'Mo, no true low post threat and severe lack of athleticism up front. Compared to other contenders, they still easily have the least talented roster in the league.

I don't think Artest is too off. Cleveland's a 30-win team w/o LeBron.

[KingJay718]

Duh.

[Cyclone112]

Lebron's situation reminds me of Iverson's situation with Philly back in the early 00's especially 01. The team is mediocre and without Iverson they would have failed miserably but they were built perfectly around him allowing them to succeed and look better than what they actually are. That's no knock on Lebron but people don't seem to realize that and just think how bad they would be without him instead of how much they complement Lebron.

People need to consider how bad the Suns would be without Nash. They are built around him as offensive weapons that generally can't create for themselves and heavily depend on Nash getting them the ball at the right time. Excluding the Suns hot start they are playing sub .500 ball which leads me to believe that this team without Nash would be at like 25wins on the season.

[ctown4eva]

When he got hurt two years ago his team went 0-8 without him (well, he played in one of the games but did not start due to injury and played only 23 minutes). With him they were on pace for 50 wins (61% win rate). What does that tell you? Artest is right. That team would not win 30 games without Lebron. They may not even win 20. Mo Williams as your best player? :roll: What Lebron is doing is amazing. It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.

2 years ago they had guys like Sasha Pavlovic and Larry Hughes playing critical roles, fool.

[LA_Showtime]

No one is disputing the fact that LeBron James does more for his team than any other superstar in the NBA today. What's really annoying though is when people try and say LeBron's surrounded by garbage. He's got a lot of solid role players who can play defense, make open shots, and accept their roles.

[RedBlackAttack]

I don't think Artest is too off. Cleveland's a 30-win team w/o LeBron.
Again... Just because the team probably wouldn't work all that well without the key piece that the organization has built around does not mean that it is a weak supporting cast. The Cavs have been putting together a lineup that best suits LeBron for seven years, now. Of course the team is dependent on LeBron to be successful. That is just common sense.

LeBron is great enough to make any situation work, but I'm not sure there is a better cast out there for working with LeBron's skillset. :confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

what is this all supposed to prove...?

if lebron bolts they are not even going to try and put a solid team out there? Replace lebron with danny granger and the team is still fighting for the 3 or 4 seed in the east.

lebron is playing some of the best basketball i have ever seen, but some of you guys are going overboard. its almost as bad as when espn creates random stat scenarios that lebron tops for the sole purpose of worshipping.

#3 or #4 seed with Granger? That would require 55-60 wins. Plus, it is not easy to acquire a elite SF to replace another one. There is no guarantee they would find someone like Granger to replace Lebron. When Jordan left--twice--who did Chicago replace him with?

That was my opinion. What is yours? What teams would CLE> without Lebron?

For all the people talking about the playoffs in the East, 30 or even 35 wins wouldn't cut it. You would need 38-40 wins to get the #8 seed.


What's really annoying though is when people try and say LeBron's surrounded by garbage. He's got a lot of solid role players who can play defense, make open shots, and accept their roles.

Who is saying garbage? No one is saying they would be the Nets without him.

Several people have said the Cavs would be okay without Lebron. Can you name the teams Cleveland would be better than without Lebron? It is easy to say "solid role players", "team D", etc. but when you get to comparing rosters the picture becomes more clear. Chicago is #8 in the East. Is anyone going to seriously argue Cleveland without Lebron>Chicago?

Rose>Williams
Deng>Shaq
Noah>Sideshow Bob
Hinrich>West

There are also some acting as if it is impossible for someone to take a 30 win team to 60 wins. It has happened before. Yes, Lebron is on that level...

[BFRESH44]

if lebron bolts they are not even going to try and put a solid team out there? Replace lebron with danny granger and the team is still fighting for the 3 or 4 seed in the east.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

That has got be a joke.

[guy]

I think its funny that Artest is pretty much saying that a one-man show has beaten his heavily stacked team twice. Seriously, what does that say about his team?

Although I do agree with him that the Cavs are not that good at all without Lebron, Artest shouldn't be saying anything the way the Cavs, not just Lebron, have just been flat out tougher when they play each other and thats the biggest reason they won both times.

[RedBlackAttack]

Rose>Williams
Deng>Shaq
Noah>Sideshow Bob
Hinrich>West

There are also some acting as if it is impossible for someone to take a 30 win team to 60 wins. It has happened before.
So... The league is only about how much individual talent you have on your roster, not how well you build around your superstar? Yep... The Bulls may have better individual talent than the Cavs. But, slashers like Rose and Deng would not work as well with LeBron as pure, spot-up shooters do that are best playing off of the ball.

So, who really cares which team has the better individual players on the roster? Who really cares how many games the Cavs would win without LeBron? The Cavs have been built around LeBron and it has been built well. That should be plainly evident to everyone.

[Fatal9]

Nets have a better core than the Cavs imo. Brook Lopez and a healthy Devin Harris would both be second best players on the Cavs. Then you have decent role players in CDC, Yi, Alston etc. Only thing missing would be defense, but a lot of that has to do with coaching, and Lebron's presence would definitly help. Nets would also need to add a couple of shooters to really compliment Lebron well, but I would honestly take a healthy Nets team over the current Cavs without Lebron. How would the Cavs even manage to put up 80 points a game? Their whole offense is gone with Lebron, and they would be stuck with Mo Williams as the #1 option, when he can't even come through as a #2 guy.

edit: like I said...they barely managed to put up 80 pts on a game by game basis when they played those 6 games without Lebron due to the finger injury. Point totals were 74, 82, 70, 79, 86, 92. Record? 0-6. good lord :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

So... The league is only about how much individual talent you have on your roster, not how well you build around your superstar? Yep... The Bulls may have better individual talent than the Cavs. But, slashers like Rose and Deng would not work as well with LeBron than pure, spot-up shooters do.

So, who really cares which team has the better individual players on the roster? Who really cares how many games the Cavs would win without LeBron? The Cavs have been built around LeBron and it has been built well. That should be plainly evident to everyone.

The question is how good would they be without Lebron. In other words, roughly how many wins is Lebron worth?

Individual talent matters, although chemistry and construction can offset a lack of some of it. Did you watch the ECF last year?

[RedBlackAttack]

The question is how good would they be without Lebron. In other words, roughly how many wins is Lebron worth?

Individual talent matters, although chemistry and construction can offset a lack of some of it. Did you watch the ECF last year?
If the question is how many games they win without LeBron, the answer is probably around 30. However, that is a horrible gauge (imo) when evaluating how well a team is constructed, especially when talking about a guy that dominates in as many areas as LeBron.

When you have a player and personality as big as LeBron, your needs completely change in a pretty unique way. You have to evaluate the Cavs in how well they have built around LeBron, not how good they would be without him, because their strategy on the FA market would completely change without James.

The ECF last year was more about major matchup problems than it was about individual talent. Styles make fights and the Magic had the perfect combination to beat the Cavs... Not to mention, they were a pretty well constructed team that had a ton of chemistry, as well.

[Roundball_Rock]

I see what you are saying. People said the same thing about the 01' Sixers and that argument has some validity. The thing is it is much easier to assess how the team would do without Lebron than it is to assess how much of the team's success is due to Lebron and how much of it is due to chemistry and construction. I think it is clear his team lacks talent (unlike the other top teams...) and people don't want to credit Lebron with a top-tier great level impact so they are citing construction. That team still lacks a legit "#2" guy. It has no great rebounder. It has significant weakness.

In the ECF they faced a far more talented team. It wasn't just match ups. Williams would be the #4 guy on the Magic in the ECF and if he was on the Magic right now he would likely be on the bench backing up Nelson.

[RedBlackAttack]

In the ECF they faced a far more talented team. It wasn't just match ups. Williams would be the #4 guy on the Magic in the ECF and if he was on the Magic right now he would likely be on the bench backing up Nelson.
Maybe... But at the same time, is there a better PG to match with LeBron than Mo Williams? He is literally the perfect guy... He is a great, great spot-up shooter... He doesn't need to dominate the ball to have a major impact... He is a low-key personality that doesn't even seem interested in the spotlight. On top of it all, he has really worked on his defense and has done a good job on that end of the floor (the biggest knock on him prior to Cleveland).

I can't think of one PG I would rather have next to LeBron. Maybe Nelson would start over Williams in Orlando, but if Nelson were in Cleveland, he would be the one riding the pine.

[NBASTATMAN]

The Cavs are now a team that knows how to win.. They have some good experience, so my belief is that they could win a fair amount of games without Lebron.. Obviously they aren't near the Celtics or Lakers without their best players though.. The Cavs without Lebron and all their other players healthy may be able to win 33-40 games... They are a good defensive team and could hang in their... For a short period of time they could do avg without Lebron but a long season would show their weaknesses...

[Indian guy]

but I'm not sure there is a better cast out there for working with LeBron's skillset. :confusedshrug:

I'm having a difficult time understanding what exactly is so unique about LeBron's cast that it makes 'em such a "perfect fit" for him. They're built like any other team. A decent low post player in Shaq, a garbage man at PF in Hickson, a perimeter finisher at SG in Parker and your typical SG-in-a-PG's-body in Mo Williams. Majority of the teams in the league resemble that model. There's no "special" way to build around LeBron. What quality player has the Cleveland front office ignored since acquiring him because he wouldn't necessarily fit around LeBron? I can't think of any. All they have done is get the best available players at the position they needed help at. That's all. Heck, the belief used to be that LeBron likes driving and playing a lot of screen n roll, so he would need big men who could shoot and stay out of the paint. But look at Cleveland this season - they start 2 non-shooters up front in Shaq and Hickson. LeBron's still having the best shooting season of his career! Mo in Milwaukee was known for being a ball hog/chucker, but he's been a perfect fit in Cleveland playing alongside another ball dominant player. What makes players like West and Varejao so "perfect" for LeBron? Every team has tweeners and guys who do the dirty work.

Bottom line is that LeBron is so multi-skilled and so good that it becomes easy to get the most out of talent-limited players on his team, because they aren't asked to do much(and they can't either). Everybody talks about how LeBron has so many shooters around him now. But Cleveland made the NBA Finals in 06-07 with a starting backcourt of Snow and Hughes. You can't get more jump shot challenged than that. Yet even then I recall people saying how LeBron's cast may have lacked in big names, but they were a "good fit" around him. Something tells me he go could to ANY team in the league today and their roster would become a "good fit" around him. That's what great players do. The maximize the talent around them.

[RJChPD]

Indian guy---Very good post

[RedBlackAttack]

Indian,
So you agree with the idea that the value of LeBron's teammates should be evaluated on how well they would do without LeBron? I guess I just don't understand what logical sense that argument makes.

And, I would say that Mo is a pretty unique guy to have at the 1 spot. There aren't too many points that play as much off of the ball as Mo. There aren't too many points that are as good of spot-up shooters as Mo. I don't care what his reputation was in Milwaukee. I know what the Cavs' offense looked like with Eric Snow, Daniel Gibson, Larry Hughes, etc. playing the PG spot and it was ugly.

The team did overachieve in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to great team defense, not what was going on at the other end of the court. Hell... Most of the time, they had to win in spite of their offensive woes. It isn't as though LeBron was able to make those teams offensive juggernauts. He would have his occasional explosion and the rest of the guys did just enough not to lose on most nights. They were pretty horrific to watch.

I realize how great LeBron is. I know that he would make any team an instant contender. The idea that this Cavs team hasn't been well put together around him, though, is my only gripe.

Mo is a pretty unique PG. AV is certainly a unique four man off of the bench and his knack for being in the right place at the right time compliments LeBron's ability to take multiple defenders with him on his drives to the basket.

I'm not saying that the Cavs haven't gone after other 'bigger' names in the FA market (they have). I'm not saying that LeBron being on the floor isn't absolutely key (it is).

I'm just saying that the Cavs' FO have come a long way since the days of LH, Marshall, Jones, Snow, etc. and that they have built a nice team around LeBron that compliments his game.

Yes... When he drives to the basket and a defense converges, it is good to have shooters on the outside to knock down the open shot. We didn't have that in '07 and, while it was a great run to the finals, I never felt that the team ever had much of a chance to bring home a ring the way that it was constructed. This team actually has a shot. It is in large part due to LeBron getting better and better, but are we going to sit here and deny that the team has improved significantly around him?

[ILLsmak]

Even without Bron, they still have one of the best (I think the best) big man rotation in the league as well as perimeter defenders and shooters. I think they'd win 40 games. Mo Williams is kind of a stud... JJ can play off Shaq the same way he plays off LeBron and they've got all kinds of talent for spacing the floor. I bet Shaq could put up similar numbers to what he did last year...

They'd be kind of like last season's Suns w/ Shaq after Amare got injured except with players that are more able to get Shaq involved (And be involved.)

That team was in the west and still almost made the playoffs. If you look at the Sun's talent (Without Amare) they only have Steve Nash... and he wasn't doing anything more last year than Mo is this year...

Plus Cle plays D.

-Smak

[dallaslonghorn]

He's right. The part about them still being human beings ... :roll: :roll:

I think I would pay money to watch Ron Artest do stand-up comedy.

[lpublic_enemyl]

what is this all supposed to prove...?

if lebron bolts they are not even going to try and put a solid team out there? Replace lebron with danny granger and the team is still fighting for the 3 or 4 seed in the east.

lebron is playing some of the best basketball i have ever seen, but some of you guys are going overboard. its almost as bad as when espn creates random stat scenarios that lebron tops for the sole purpose of worshipping.
no ****ing way man lebron is soo much to this team, does everything, steals, blocks, drives, can knock down the threes etc with danny granger they are around miami and the raptors if that

[artest 93]

I can't think of one PG I would rather have next to LeBron. Maybe Nelson would start over Williams in Orlando, but if Nelson were in Cleveland, he would be the one riding the pine.

I think Chauncey Billups would be an obvious choice. He's clutch, his IQ is very high, and he shoots FT's at an elite level. He's also capable of creating his own shots and shots for others. He can post up others too.

Obviously, picking Billups over other PG's in the game is very easy to do, but I also think he's a better complement to LeBron than Mo Williams.

[G-train]

Once again posters prove they don't understand the difference between good talent and good basketball players.

Cleveland has many good basketball players. They would definitely make the playoffs without Lebron.

[Roundball_Rock]

So which teams would Cleveland without Lebron be better than?

Cleveland C 34 11
Orlando C 29 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Miami C 23 20
Toronto C 22 22
Charlotte C 21 21
Chicago C 20 22

Milwaukee C 18 24
New York C 17 25
Indiana C 15 29
Detroit C 15 28
Philadelphia C 15 28
Washington C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 40

It is easy to see "they would make the playoffs" in the abstract. Let's compare them to specific teams they would need to beat for a playoff spot.

[sixer6ad]

What a waste of time and energy. This may be the biggest "if" forum in the history of ISH.

34-11
Best Record in the League
Lebron starts and plays a lot
Has played in Cleveland his entire career
All of this speculation can wait until July

If my aunt had....she'd be my uncle. Cracks me up that people would follow the lead of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest. Drink the kool-aid of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest.

[lilgodfather1]

So which teams would Cleveland without Lebron be better than?

Cleveland C 34 11
Orlando C 29 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Miami C 23 20
Toronto C 22 22
Charlotte C 21 21
Chicago C 20 22

Milwaukee C 18 24
New York C 17 25
Indiana C 15 29
Detroit C 15 28
Philadelphia C 15 28
Washington C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 40

It is easy to see "they would make the playoffs" in the abstract. Let's compare them to specific teams they would need to beat for a playoff spot.
I think they'd be about a game behind Milwaukee.

[sixer6ad]

Here is some more abstract belief:

The players who have played with LBJ for a lengthy time period have learned to win through him. They now understand all of the little things that must be done that teams like the Knicks, Bulls, Bucks, etc. don't. The Cavs, without Lebron, would still challenge teams at home but be very challenged as a road team. I do think we would see LBJ's positive impact on a LBJ-less team for possibly a season. After that, the real work would begin.

[Roundball_Rock]

What a waste of time and energy. This may be the biggest "if" forum in the history of ISH.

34-11
Best Record in the League
Lebron starts and plays a lot
Has played in Cleveland his entire career
All of this speculation can wait until July

If my aunt had....she'd be my uncle. Cracks me up that people would follow the lead of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest. Drink the kool-aid of - yes, that's right - Ron Artest.

Not really. If he gets injured for several games we could get an idea, like when they went 0-8 without him in 2008 (45-29 with him).


I think they'd be about a game behind Milwaukee.

I can see that, although I think NY would be better too.

[sixer6ad]

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/64231/20100123/artest_cleveland_is_nothing_without_lebron/

Honestly, after seeing the Mavs/Knicks score today, I texted a friend that if LBJ wants to leave what he has here for that mess there, then we cannot do a thing about it. If he chooses to leave, he will never have a relationship with a fan base the way he does in Cleveland; it would be impossible. Let's see....best record in the league vs. lose by 50 at home against a team without two starters.

[sixer6ad]

Not really. If he gets injured for several games we could get an idea, like when they went 0-8 without him in 2008 (45-29 with him).



I can see that, although I think NY would be better too.

I don't remember the 0-8.

[elinss86]

yep, thats why to me no question if lebron or kobe is better. kobes best player is gasol. brons got mo. lol. switch kobe and lebron and bron mite win 70+ wit hthe lakers. put kobe on cavs i doubt they win more than 45

[Bigsmoke]

Lebron has great role players. People have to understand that just having all the offensive talents doesnt mean your the greatest and having a bunch of no names mean you're the worst. Lebron has great rebounders, defenders, outside shooter, veterans, and an All Star in Mo.

[D.J.]

Good ol' Ron. :oldlol: In Cleveland's defense, they do play good team defense. That aspect would win them quite a few games. They're obviously not winning 60 games without LeBron, but they're not at the bottom either. Even though they were 0-8 without LeBron, they didn't have to change the way they play or prepare for a change because they knew LeBron was coming back. If they had to play the rest of the year without LeBron, they would have to change the way they play and pick up another player or two.

[Rafael Delaget]

Ron-Ron's new Adidas commercial:

"Impossible is nothing. Well not that it's nothing, it's still a word with like 8 letters or whatever. But yeah, it's nothing."

[Wuxia]

[QUOTE=Rafael Delaget

[ILLsmak]

Exactly, everyone in the NBA has talent... it's about how they fit. I think Cle without LeBron would not lose to any team after Miami on that list. Real talk. Maybe once or twice but not in a season/playoff series.

But it's all hypothetical. Now, we can all agree they wouldn't be a championship contender without him.

-Smak

[DuMa]

this has been apparent for 7 years now. welcome to the NBA ron. the sky is also blue

[blood yes]

lmfao at all these idiots thinking the cavaliers would have won 40+games without lebron :lol

[TheBigVeto]

If the Cavs don't flagrant foul this guy and end his career I'd be disappointed.

[alleykat]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

he said "they're still human beings".....

ice cold

[Human Error]

Lol at lots of idiots who said that the Cavs would still be a good team without Lebron. It always feels good to expose idiots.

[Human Error]

Lebron has great role players. People have to understand that just having all the offensive talents doesnt mean your the greatest and having a bunch of no names mean you're the worst. Lebron has great rebounders, defenders, outside shooter, veterans, and an All Star in Mo.
Lol Mo Williams is a legitimate all star? :oldlol:

[tmacattack33]

When he got hurt two years ago his team went 0-8 without him (well, he played in one of the games but did not start due to injury and played only 23 minutes). With him they were on pace for 50 wins (61% win rate). What does that tell you? Artest is right. That team would not win 30 games without Lebron. They may not even win 20. Mo Williams as your best player? :roll: What Lebron is doing is amazing. It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.

Spot on.

[tmacattack33]

They don't have much offense outside of Lebron but they have a lot of solid role players who can play good defense. Would still be a good team.

Incorrect.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

You guys realize after Lebron left most of those role players weren't on the basketball court or active in line up right? It's not really the same team minus Lebron. :facepalm Fail.

[tmacattack33]

You guys realize after Lebron left most of those role players weren't on the basketball court or active in line up right? It's not really the same team minus Lebron. :facepalm Fail.

Wrong.

And believe me, i've posted in other forums about it and i vividly remember what happened. I could probably even find some of my posts about it.

Before any major injuries or the Mo Williams trade, Cleveland had about 33 games where their lineup was healthy. It resulted in like a 8-25 record (and it included that horrible losing streak).

[swi7ch]

Who bumped this 2 year old thread? :mad::mad::mad:

[Jax]

Once again posters prove they don't understand the difference between good talent and good basketball players.

Cleveland has many good basketball players. They would definitely make the playoffs without Lebron.
Oh boy.:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[LBJMVP]

so ron artest said.

"cleveland is nothing without lebron, that is why they put me on him, so i could stop him"



and we won the game anyway... interesting :lol

[Nash]

Lebron's super team:

2nd option: Bench player for Clippers
3rd option: Jamison, 5th option for Lakers now
4th option: Shaq, dude retires next season

BUT Lebron didn't winnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..morons

[arifgokcen]

Lebron's super team:

2nd option: Bench player for Clippers
3rd option: Jamison, 5th option for Lakers now
4th option: Shaq, dude retires next season

BUT Lebron didn't winnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn..morons
:bowdown: