David Lee got Robbed

[MMKM]

Agree?

[sbw19]

Team record my friend. Josh Smith on the other hand should have made it.

[L.Kizzle]

Did he get hurt, authorities anywhere. Was it Arenas and his gat?

[MMKM]

Team record my friend. Josh Smith on the other hand should have made it.


Team record considered, he statistically DOMINATES Horford and plays hard every night. Team record should only come into play when two players are neck and neck. It shouldn't be the biggest factor. Otherwise why not make Derek Fisher the starting PG over Chris Paul?

[HighFlyer23]

he's white ... thats why :lol

[DuMa]

http://thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/chris-kaman.jpg

HI MY NAME IS CHRIS KAMAN AND I WAS NOT ONLY ROBBED BUT I HAD MY BALLS GRABBED BY A PLAYER BEFORE

[sbw19]

Team record considered, he statistically DOMINATES Horford and plays hard every night. Team record should only come into play when two players are neck and neck. It shouldn't be the biggest factor. Otherwise why not make Derek Fisher the starting PG over Chris Paul?
Because his team's record isn't his doing. Team record should matter, otherwise Brook Lopez should have made it too.

[tontoz]

Team record considered, he statistically DOMINATES Horford and plays hard every night. Team record should only come into play when two players are neck and neck. It shouldn't be the biggest factor. Otherwise why not make Derek Fisher the starting PG over Chris Paul?


Funny how that "domination" doesn't occur when he plays Horford. In 3 games against Atlanta Lee is averaged 12/10 shooting 47% against Horford. Horford is averaged 21/14 shooting 61% in those three games. That is ownage.

Lee plays in a run and gun system which helps him with scoring. He also can't guard anyone.

If anyone got robbed it is Bogut.

[MMKM]

Funny how that "domination" doesn't occur when he plays Horford. In 3 games against Atlanta Lee is averaged 12/10 shooting 47% against Horford. Horford is averaged 21/14 shooting 61% in those three games. That is ownage.

Lee plays in a run and gun system which helps him with scoring. He also can't guard anyone.

If anyone got robbed it is Bogut.


Yeah admittedly Horford beasted against the Knicks, but your gonna pick an All Star based on 3 games? Shouldn't the All Star be the one who performs the best the most consistently against the most teams?

[tontoz]

Yeah admittedly Horford beasted against the Knicks, but your gonna pick an All Star based on 3 games? Shouldn't the All Star be the one who performs the best the most consistently against the most teams?


Horford plays defense. Lee doesn't. The head to head matchup is evidence of that.

When your center averages only .3 blocks that is a problem.

[knickballer]

Funny how that "domination" doesn't occur when he plays Horford. In 3 games against Atlanta Lee is averaged 12/10 shooting 47% against Horford. Horford is averaged 21/14 shooting 61% in those three games. That is ownage.

Lee plays in a run and gun system which helps him with scoring. He also can't guard anyone.

If anyone got robbed it is Bogut.


But the Knicks also swept the Hawks also you **** bag. Hortford is averaging what 12/9? He's not even the 5th best center in the east probably.

That's also bull**** to cause the Knicks don't play a fast tempo anymore but you just like to speak out of your ass... His offensive game is on par to every big in the league.

[Poodle]

he's white ... thats why :lol


so true

[jazz873]

agreed

[konex]

This may not be PC but you'd think the NBA would want a white American that they could hype up :confusedshrug:

ps: Josh Smith got snubbed worse though. I mean, Horford over him? WTF :roll:

[Poodle]

But the Knicks also swept the Hawks also you **** bag. Hortford is averaging what 12/9? He's not even the 5th best center in the east probably.

That's also bull**** to cause the Knicks don't play a fast tempo anymore but you just like to speak out of your ass... His offensive game is on par to every big in the league.


whats crazy is horford made it over josh smith. smith is having a unselfish, probably best year since he's been in the league.

lee is a beast too bad he's a white man in a black man's world.

[nbastatus]

how?

[plowking]

Bogut got robbed.

[tontoz]

But the Knicks also swept the Hawks also you **** bag. Hortford is averaging what 12/9? He's not even the 5th best center in the east probably.

That's also bull**** to cause the Knicks don't play a fast tempo anymore but you just like to speak out of your ass... His offensive game is on par to every big in the league.

You are obviously an idiot. First of all the Knicks didn't sweep the Hawks. Secondly the Knicks shot 45% from 3 against the Hawks in their 2 wins. The Hawks shot 22% from 3 in those games. Do you think Lee had anything to do with that? :oldlol:

The Knicks are 9th in the NBA in pace of play, the Hawks 25th. and no Horford isn't averaging 12/9.

Lee's defense sure isn't on par with other bigs in the league.









http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/fail.jpg

[SoCalMike]

Agree?

no, dont agree... big fish in losing pond means little....



:pimp:

[tontoz]

whats crazy is horford made it over josh smith. smith is having a unselfish, probably best year since he's been in the league.

lee is a beast too bad he's a white man in a black man's world.


Horford plays center. smith plays the 4. Horford didn't make it over smith. there is much more competition at the forward spots.

[knickballer]

You are obviously an idiot. First of all the Knicks didn't sweep the Hawks. Secondly the Knicks shot 45% from 3 against the Hawks in their 2 wins. The Hawks shot 22% from 3 in those games. Do you think Lee had anything to do with that? :oldlol:

The Knicks are 9th in the NBA in pace of play, the Hawks 25th. and no Horford isn't averaging 12/9.

Lee's defense sure isn't on par with other bigs in the league.



http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g195/tontoz/fail.jpg


Lee's defense isn't on par with other bigs in the league but he's almost averaging 20/11/3.4(assists) with a great FG%. But since he's David ****ing Lee he doesn't go in because he's overrated and plays in a inflated offense. If any other player averages those stats they are in. Al Hortford put up Kendrick Perkin type of stats and yet he gets in.. It's a crime.

[tontoz]

Lee's defense isn't on par with other bigs in the league but he's almost averaging 20/11/3.4(assists) with a great FG%. But since he's David ****ing Lee he doesn't go in because he's overrated and plays in a inflated offense. If any other player averages those stats they are in. Al Hortford put up Kendrick Perkin type of stats and yet he gets in.. It's a crime.


Your ignorance is the only crime. Jefferson averaged 23/11 last year and didn't make it.

There is nobody named Hortford in the NBA. Al Horford is averaging 14/10 shooting 57.5%. And the Hawks give up 8.4 fewer ppg when he is playing.

it is much easier to get rebounds on a horrible rebounding team. Nobody else on the Knicks' roster averages even 6 rebounds per game. The Knicks are getting outrebounded by 3.3 per game.

Seriously go to the store and buy a clue. Thanks

[lpublic_enemyl]

Bogut got robbed.
yeah bogut did

[tontoz]

What run and gun? If you had bothered to watch a game this season, you could have seen that we're running a completely different offense from his Suns years. We don't have a Steve Nash to direct the game. Look at our fast break points and we also don't shoot as fast into the shot clock.


The Knicks are 2nd in the NBA in three point attempts and playing with an undersized front line. Looks pretty familiar to me.

The Knicks are 9th in the league in pace of play compared to the Hawks 25th.

[jonathan]

Your ignorance is the only crime. Jefferson averaged 23/11 last year and didn't make it.

There is nobody named Hortford in the NBA. Al Horford is averaging 14/10 shooting 57.5%. And the Hawks give up 8.4 fewer ppg when he is playing.

it is much easier to get rebounds on a horrible rebounding team. Nobody else on the Knicks' roster averages even 6 rebounds per game. The Knicks are getting outrebounded by 3.3 per game.

Seriously go to the store and buy a clue. Thanks

I'm not going to say Lee should have made it over Horford because I have not watched Horford play enough. But your arguments are pretty weak though. Lee is averaging better numbers in every category and the FG% is pretty much a wash (Horford is 5th in FG% - Lee is 7th in FG% and taking the majority of his shots from the perimeter). Also, when Lee played with Randolph his rebounding numbers were down a bit but still respectable 9 RPG with Randolph putting up 10 RPG.

[JustinJDW]

he's white ... thats why :lolSadly, that probably had something to do with it. Seriously, Al Horford? Over Josh Smith, David Lee and Andrew Bogut? Seriously?

The guy is a freaking roleplayer for Christ's Sake.

[G-train]

Noah > Horford this season.

[tontoz]

I'm not going to say Lee should have made it over Horford because I have not watched Horford play enough. But your arguments are pretty weak though. Lee is averaging better numbers in every category and the FG% is pretty much a wash (Horford is 5th in FG% - Lee is 7th in FG% and taking the majority of his shots from the perimeter). Also, when Lee played with Randolph his rebounding numbers were down a bit but still respectable 9 RPG with Randolph putting up 10 RPG.


Oh really? did you forget about Lee's .3 blocks per game? You are aware that there are two sides to the court, right? Like it or not defense matters and Lee sucks at it. Horford doesn't.

And you just pointed out that his rebounding numbers are inflated because there aren't any other rebounders on that team. The Knicks are getting punk'd on the boards on the season. The Knicks are 27th in rebounding differential.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortable_team_statistics/sortable2.html?cnf=1&prd=1#top

[burnsy87]

http://thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/chris-kaman.jpg

HI MY NAME IS CHRIS KAMAN AND I WAS NOT ONLY ROBBED BUT I HAD MY BALLS GRABBED BY A PLAYER BEFORE

Haha. He is so dirty looking.

[tontoz]

Sadly, that probably had something to do with it. Seriously, Al Horford? Over Josh Smith, David Lee and Andrew Bogut? Seriously?

The guy is a freaking roleplayer for Christ's Sake.


Next thing people will complain that Horford made it over Ray Allen or Mo Williams. WTF

[Poodle]

sorry all anyone has to do is watch 5 straight hawks games and 5 straight knicks games to see which is better. horford is invisible often, while lee is involved in almost every other player in some way. i don't even care about the stats argument, horford is extremely overrated. and yes i've watched a decent amount of hawks games since i have jj on my fantasy squad. i've also watched a lot of knicks games and there simply is no comparison.

and to the people pointing to lee's defense, its not bad, and there are a lot of star big men around the league with the same level of defense than not.

[tontoz]

sorry all anyone has to do is watch 5 straight hawks games and 5 straight knicks games to see which is better. horford is invisible often, while lee is involved in almost every other player in some way. i don't even care about the stats argument, horford is extremely overrated. and yes i've watched a decent amount of hawks games since i have jj on my fantasy squad. i've also watched a lot of knicks games and there simply is no comparison.

and to the people pointing to lee's defense, its not bad, and there are a lot of star big men around the league with the same level of defense than not.


Horford sure wasn't invisible when he had Lee guarding him.

And Lee's usage rate is far higher than Horford's. It is hard to score when other guys shoot it before you get a chance to touch it.

[Tuvi]

Bogut and Lee are better than Horford, don't know what the hell the coaches were thinking.

[Undisputed]

I think David Lee, Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah(because I'm a Bulls fan maybe? Excuse the bias), or Josh Smith deserved the nod over Horford. It is what it is though. The coaches know a players impact better than us fans, I guess.

[MMKM]

OK here is what's interesting about using the head to head stats in favor of Horford:

Horford was ABOVE his averages in his 3 games vs the Knicks.
Lee was BELOW his averages vs the Hawks.

That would mean that if you factor those 3 games in, then against all the other teams in the league, Horford played slightly BELOW his season averages while Lee played slightly ABOVE his. That widens the statistical gap even more. Why did so many coaches vote for Horford?

[Rekindled]

sons , LMAO @ espn front page david lee expression

[A Roc 23]

David Lee is one of the worst post defenders to ever even get all-star considerations.

[Diesel J]

David Lee is one of the worst post defenders to ever even get all-star considerations.


Dude plays zero defense:lol

[Lebron23]

Dude plays zero defense:lol


But David Lee is averaging 19 ppg, and 11 rpg this season.

[KoRn]

Funny how that "domination" doesn't occur when he plays Horford. In 3 games against Atlanta Lee is averaged 12/10 shooting 47% against Horford. Horford is averaged 21/14 shooting 61% in those three games. That is ownage.

Lee plays in a run and gun system which helps him with scoring. He also can't guard anyone.

If anyone got robbed it is Bogut.

does that apply to steve nash too? his stats are inflated since he plays in a run and gun system and he can't defend anyone.

[KoRn]

Dude plays zero defense:lol

amare stoudemire is worst, at least david lee rebounds.

[hwliuLAP]

because if you want to win a championship, you pick a guy like Hortford, you never pick a guy like Lee. Lee will never be anything more than a regular season guy, I highly doubt a team with him as the starting Center will ever make it to the finals unless you already have a great team without him.


but if anything, Bogut got robbed, Lee is no where close.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Sadly, that probably had something to do with it. Seriously, Al Horford? Over Josh Smith, David Lee and Andrew Bogut? Seriously?
All those guys mentioned are role players ...

[Undisputed]

because if you want to win a championship, you pick a guy like Hortford, you never pick a guy like Lee. Lee will never be anything more than a regular season guy, I highly doubt a team with him as the starting Center will ever make it to the finals unless you already have a great team without him.


but if anything, Bogut got robbed, Lee is no where close.

When did Horford win a championship? He's been in the play-offs on a very well rounded team, but how can you say "If you want to win a championship you pick a guy like Horford"? There's absolutely nothing to back that up with. Put Horford on the Knicks and he would appear to be nothing but a regular season guy also. You are right when you say no team with David Lee as the starting center will go anywhere in the play-offs, that's why he needs to be played as a power forward.

[Bigsmoke]

When did Horford win a championship? He's been in the play-offs on a very well rounded team, but how can you say "If you want to win a championship you pick a guy like Horford"? There's absolutely nothing to back that up with. Put Horford on the Knicks and he would appear to be nothing but a regular season guy also. You are right when you say no team with David Lee as the starting center will go anywhere in the play-offs, that's why he needs to be played as a power forward.

David Lee stats are like that because of Mike D'Antoni. You think Shawn Marion's and Amare Stoudemire's stats when WAY DOWN without Mike at coach is a coincidence?

Al Horford >> Lee

[Undisputed]

David Lee stats are like that because of Mike D'Antoni. You think Shawn Marion's and Amare Stoudemire's stats when WAY DOWN without Mike at coach is a coincidence
If you watch David Lee play, you'd see he could produce the same way no matter who the coach is. Is D'Antoni putting the ball in the hoop? Is D'Antoni shooting his jumpers? Is D'Antoni out there executing for David Lee? Is D'Antoni rebounding? Don't give me that garbage argument. His numbers wouldn't go way down under any coach that gives him starters minutes.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Amare's numbers haven't gone down drastically. Marion is a different story though.

[tontoz]

does that apply to steve nash too? his stats are inflated since he plays in a run and gun system and he can't defend anyone.


Steve Nash was an average defender in his prime. his defense was only bad in relation to his offense. In his prime Nash's opponents PER was 15.2, right in line with the league average which is pretty good considering they played at such a fast pace.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05PHO1C.HTM

Lee's opponent PER is 21.5.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK12.HTM#bypos


Not to mention that Nash is the best shooting pg in NBA history.

[tontoz]

If you watch David Lee play, you'd see he could produce the same way no matter who the coach is. Is D'Antoni putting the ball in the hoop? Is D'Antoni shooting his jumpers? Is D'Antoni out there executing for David Lee? Is D'Antoni rebounding? Don't give me that garbage argument. His numbers wouldn't go way down under any coach that gives him starters minutes.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Amare's numbers haven't gone down drastically. Marion is a different story though.


In the two years before D'Antoni got there Lee averaged 10.7 and 10.8 ppg playing 29 minutes.

[jonathan]

In the two years before D'Antoni got there Lee averaged 10.7 and 10.8 ppg playing 29 minutes.

You understand by saying this it only gives more support to David Lee as an all star. The dude has improved tremendously every season. But since you don't watch any knicks games you probably think "D'Antoni is the new coach, therefore every knicks player has inflated stats" which is complete B.S. haha.

If D'Antoni's coaching staff helped him get better - developing a jump shot and whatnot - they deserve major props. But his improvement isn't a direct result of playing in some new system as you're thinking. You only have to watch a few games to realize this :confusedshrug: That's why I'm not commenting on Horford. Since I don't watch the hawks often, I know I'll look like an idiot if I try to make an argument against him.

[ChuckOakley]

Hawks - 102.6 PPG
Knicks - 101.1 PPG (0.5 ppg higher than the median team)

So even though NY scores less PPG than Atlanta, David Lee's stats are inflated because of it?

Interesting....

David Lee is much more valuable to NY than Horford is to Atlanta.
Meanwhile the ASG is all about transition play (thus rebounding and finishing abilitiy are needed... Lee's speciality), and no defense is played (Horford's specialty)

[ChuckOakley]

In the two years before D'Antoni got there Lee averaged 10.7 and 10.8 ppg playing 29 minutes.

Wow, you mean a young player has become better offensivley over time and with more minutes?!

How dare he develop a jumpshot and extend the range on it!
How dare he actually develop more moves off the dribble!

[RaininThrees]

Hawks - 102.6 PPG
Knicks - 101.1 PPG (0.5 ppg higher than the median team)

So even though NY scores less PPG than Atlanta, David Lee's stats are inflated because of it?

Interesting....

David Lee is much more valuable to NY than Horford is to Atlanta.
Meanwhile the ASG is all about transition play (thus rebounding and finishing abilitiy are needed... Lee's speciality), and no defense is played (Horford's specialty)

Which means what on a team that's 18-27?

[ChuckOakley]

David Lee stats are like that because of Mike D'Antoni. You think Shawn Marion's and Amare Stoudemire's stats when WAY DOWN without Mike at coach is a coincidence?

Al Horford >> Lee
I know, it's clear that because of D'Antoni's offense..

Chandler
Gallinari
Harrington
NateRob
David Lee

are all producing huge stats, and because of it NY scores 101ppg, which makes them the 10th highest scroing team and 0.5ppg above average!

[ChuckOakley]

Which means what on a team that's 18-27?
My guesses...
Atlanta w/o Horford are down couple wins.
NY w/o Lee on par with the Nets, maybe Wolves as in single digit wins.

Put it in perspective and it's a huge difference.
You honeslty can't comprehend that?

[ChuckOakley]

Which means what on a team that's 18-27?
Shouldn't your hate/trolling be confined to Vince Carter?

Time to get out the VC voodoo doll you've been playing with for the past 7 years! It looks like all your hard work may be paying off!

[ronnymac]

David Lee stats are like that because of Mike D'Antoni. You think Shawn Marion's and Amare Stoudemire's stats when WAY DOWN without Mike at coach is a coincidence?

Al Horford >> Lee
Wow. David lee is not all about just about D'Antonio.Infact there were rummors that Coach D thought he wouldnt even fit his gameplan when he first got the job. they were openley trying to trade him. you're posts are just terrible.

[Dunaprenti]

If you're playing under D'antoni and you're producing great stats, its because of his system. This is like a mantra! No questions asked!

[tontoz]

You understand by saying this it only gives more support to David Lee as an all star. The dude has improved tremendously every season. But since you don't watch any knicks games you probably think "D'Antoni is the new coach, therefore every knicks player has inflated stats" which is complete B.S. haha.




No he hasn't. His scoring didn't improve at all from his second to third year.

[tontoz]

Wow, you mean a young player has become better offensivley over time and with more minutes?!

How dare he develop a jumpshot and extend the range on it!
How dare he actually develop more moves off the dribble!

I guess he just suddenly decided to start improving his game after D'Antoni got there. Sure

[RaininThrees]

Shouldn't your hate/trolling be confined to Vince Carter?

Time to get out the VC voodoo doll you've been playing with for the past 7 years! It looks like all your hard work may be paying off!

Listen... I don't hate Lee... I don't get how 'disagreeing' automatically turns into 'hate'. I just think that being on a bad team inflates some guys' stats, and I don't think he's an all star. He's only better than Horford on that team, who really shouldn't be there either IMO. Was Mike James an all-star in 2005-06 when he averaged 20.3 & 6 on a team that finished 27-55? Hell no, but his stats might say otherwise.

[Andrei89]

Lee sux, i am glad he didn't make the All Star team

[ChuckOakley]

I guess he just suddenly decided to start improving his game after D'Antoni got there. Sure
You clearly haven't watched Lee over the years and don't know what you are talking about.

He averaged a double double off the bench in under 30 mpg under Isiah. He's always produced.

But don't you think as a player gets older (esp. a young one), gets more minutes and starts developing a jumper, then a jumper with range, some moves, more ability off the dribble, etc. he is bound to increase his offensive output?

[hawkfan]

Hawks - 102.6 PPG
Knicks - 101.1 PPG (0.5 ppg higher than the median team)

So even though NY scores less PPG than Atlanta, David Lee's stats are inflated because of it?

Interesting....

David Lee is much more valuable to NY than Horford is to Atlanta.
Meanwhile the ASG is all about transition play (thus rebounding and finishing abilitiy are needed... Lee's speciality), and no defense is played (Horford's specialty)

Lee and Horford didn't compete with each other for a spot, since Horford plays 5 and Lee plays 3 or 4.

It's Lee vs. Wallace.

[ChuckOakley]

Lee and Horford didn't compete with each other for a spot, since Horford plays 5 and Lee plays 3 or 4.

It's Lee vs. Wallace.
No, he doesn't.
He's NY listed Center which what I think the vote for both fans and coaches go by.
Meanwhile Chandler, Gallinari, Jeffries, Harrington play the 3 or 4 and almost all the minuted there.

[ALBballer]

Lee and Horford didn't compete with each other for a spot, since Horford plays 5 and Lee plays 3 or 4.

It's Lee vs. Wallace.

Lee has been playing Center the whole season for the knicks.

:hammerhead:

I think Lee should of gotten in. The posters claiming the Run-gun is the main reason why Lee's numbers are inflated are absolutely clueless. He's been putting up atleast 10/10 all of his career. He's finally developed a decent jumper and he's been playing the 5 that has helped him drive against bigger defenders which in turned boosted his offensive numbers. Besides the Knicks can't play a run/gun offense because they have 2 players starting that can not do sht on offense (Duhon and Jeffries.) Defenses sag off of these players and pay more attention to Lee, Gallo and Chandler. Sure Duhon is pretty good in the pick and roll for Lee and has dished out some of Lee's points....but Lee has created most of his shots by taking players off the dribble or shooting the mid range.

Lee's defense on the other hand isn't that good. He doesn't block shots, he's a decent one on one defender and he's average on help defense. But you can also argue that Lee puts more energy on the offensive end because he's required to since the knicks have 2 inept offensive starters in Duhon and Jeffries. YOu can argue that he needs to save his energy for offense.

[tontoz]

You clearly haven't watched Lee over the years and don't know what you are talking about.

He averaged a double double off the bench in under 30 mpg under Isiah. He's always produced.

But don't you think as a player gets older (esp. a young one), gets more minutes and starts developing a jumper, then a jumper with range, some moves, more ability off the dribble, etc. he is bound to increase his offensive output?

06/07 29.8 min/ 10.7 ppg, 10.4 rebounds
07/08 29.1 min/ 10.8 ppg, 8.9 rebounds

Please point out the big improvement.

[tontoz]

No, he doesn't.
He's NY listed Center which what I think the vote for both fans and coaches go by.
Meanwhile Chandler, Gallinari, Jeffries, Harrington play the 3 or 4 and almost all the minuted there.

Please ignore hawkfan. He is an embarassment to all Hawks fans. he thought Bibby was the league MVP last year.

[ChuckOakley]

06/07 29.8 min/ 10.7 ppg, 10.4 rebounds
07/08 29.1 min/ 10.8 ppg, 8.9 rebounds

Please point out the big improvement.
I've already mentioned them
Since those years..

A jumpshot (now with range)
Ability to take his man off the dribble
Greater finishing ability and ability to finish stronger (he's bulked up some and has been a leader in dunks)
Modest post moves

Are you trying to say David Lee had this offensive prowess all along?
If so, is it a bad thing that D'Antoni has allowed Lee to show his talents or D'Antoni realized his talent?

It's not as though he is shooting ill-advisesd shots. Look at his FG% and FT%.

[tontoz]

I've already mentioned them
Since those years..

A jumpshot (now with range)
Ability to take his man off the dribble
Greater finishing ability and ability to finish stronger (he's bulked up some and has been a leader in dunks)
Modest post moves

Are you trying to say David Lee had this offensive prowess all along?
If so, is it a bad thing that D'Antoni has allowed Lee to show his talents or D'Antoni realized his talent?

It's not as though he is shooting ill-advisesd shots. Look at his FG% and FT%.

Does the name Boris Diaw ring a bell?

He is a beneficiary of D'Antonis system. Put him at the 4, where he would play normally, and he wouldn't be able to score so easily. He wouldn't get as many open jumpers and would have a harder time beating smaller, quicker players off the dribble. As evidence of this i give you his games against the Hawks.

FYI Horford shoots better on his jumpers than Lee, he just doesn't get as many attempts.

[ChuckOakley]

Does the name Boris Diaw ring a bell?

He is a beneficiary of D'Antonis system. Put him at the 4, where he would play normally, and he wouldn't be able to score so easily. He wouldn't get as many open jumpers and would have a harder time beating smaller, quicker players off the dribble. As evidence of this i give you his games against the Hawks.

FYI Horford shoots better on his jumpers than Lee, he just doesn't get as many attempts.

How does everyone that plays for D'Antoni benefit so?

Nash
Amare
Marion
Diaw

NateRob
Lee
Gallinari
Harrington

etc...

You can't keep saying this about each and every player since the team can only score so much and the players are only doing their best to play and win in the coaches system.

Again, NY scores 101.1 PPG (10th in the NBA), 0.5 PPG more than the #15 team. That cannot account for the discount eveyone wants to take off of players stats.

Lee is NY's best player, easily. Is that his fault? Is it D'Antoni's fault? For a coach/system that supposedly relies so much on PG play, Lee nor D'Antoni certainly do not have Nash.. they have Duhon who sucks... so why would Lee produce the way a Marion or Amare would w/o a quality PG to pass to him?

[tontoz]

How does everyone that plays for D'Antoni benefit so?

Nash
Amare
Marion
Diaw

NateRob
Lee
Gallinari
Harrington

etc...

You can't keep saying this about each and every player since the team can only score so much and the players are only doing their best to play and win in the coaches system.

Again, NY scores 101.1 PPG (10th in the NBA), 0.5 PPG more than the #15 team. That cannot account for the discount eveyone wants to take off of players stats.

Lee is NY's best player, easily. Is that his fault? Is it D'Antoni's fault? For a coach/system that supposedly relies so much on PG play, Lee nor D'Antoni certainly do not have Nash.. they have Duhon who sucks... so why would Lee produce the way a Marion or Amare would w/o a quality PG to pass to him?


I am not saying it about every player. I am saying it about Lee. He is playing center because of D'Antoni's system. Nash is a pg regardless of where he plays.

Lee, just like Diaw, benefited offensively by moving to center because big, slow centers struggle to keep up with him. However Lee, just like Diaw, struggles to defend bigger players. The Knicks are 26th in the NBA in pts in the paint defense and Lee's inability to guard bigger players is a big reason why.

[ChuckOakley]

I am not saying it about every player. I am saying it about Lee. He is playing center because of D'Antoni's system. Nash is a pg regardless of where he plays.

Lee, just like Diaw, benefited offensively by moving to center because big, slow centers struggle to keep up with him. However Lee, just like Diaw, struggles to defend bigger players. The Knicks are 26th in the NBA in pts in the paint defense and Lee's inability to guard bigger players is a big reason why.
Lee's offense and efficiency is a big reason why NY is in the playoff chase and not battling with the Nets right now.

Again the ASG tends to reward production as well as team record. Lee has better production than Horford, as is responsible for more of NY's wins than Horford in Atlanta.

Atlanta has been a regular playoff team with a much more talented roster. Lee has been playing in one of the most poorly managed and coached teams for the past decade or so up until last season, and the talent around him proves that.

Meanwhile the ASG is a running game where rebounding and finsihing ability/scoring is all that really matters, while defense is non-existent. I think Lee was clearly a better choice than Horford but that's just me.

[The GM]

Lee should have gotten in over Horford If you putting up 20 & 10 Idc what kinda offense your in you should be in the ASG & If coaches reward winning then CP3 shouldn't be in the ASG either Billups should be in there over him with Denver having a way better record then New Orleans.

[ChuckOakley]

Lee should have gotten in over Horford, I'm sorry and If coaches reward winning then CP3 shouldn't be in the ASG either Billups should be in there over him too with Denver having a way better record.
Personally I think way too much emphasis goes into team record

1 player cannot:
-What players they have around them
-How the players aroung them play or fit (generally speaking)
-The decision management makes in trades, drafts or signings
-The quality of the coaching
-Injuries
-etc...

If a C (or player that is listed at C) was to be chosen for the ASG, I think Lee, Lopez and Bogut were all more deserving than Horford since they are all better players with better production AND I think the Hawks would be a better team with any of them over Horford AND trade Horford straight up for any of them....as would most any team.

[tontoz]

Lee's offense and efficiency is a big reason why NY is in the playoff chase and not battling with the Nets right now.



The reason the Knicks are in the playoff chase is because the East is weak. They are 8 games under .500. The Hawks are 14 games over .500.

It is easier to put up big stats on bad teams. JJ only averaged 16 ppg with the Suns but his scoring went way up when he came to the Hawks. It should also be noted that JJ didn't make the All-Star game in his second season with the Hawks which was his most productive. He has made it 4 times since then.

Lee's defense is a big reason why they are 26th in pts in the paint defense.

[tontoz]

Personally I think way too much emphasis goes into team record

1 player cannot:
-What players they have around them
-How the players aroung them play or fit (generally speaking)
-The decision management makes in trades, drafts or signings
-The quality of the coaching
-Injuries
-etc...

If a C (or player that is listed at C) was to be chosen for the ASG, I think Lee, Lopez and Bogut were all more deserving than Horford since they are all better players with better production AND I think the Hawks would be a better team with any of them over Horford AND trade Horford straight up for any of them....as would most any team.


LOL that is just dumb. How would Lee help the Hawks? They are second in the league in offensive efficiency. There is no chance that they would be better with Lee and no chance that they would even consider trading Horford for Lee. That is a joke.

[ChuckOakley]

LOL that is just dumb. How would Lee help the Hawks? They are second in the league in offensive efficiency. There is no chance that they would be better with Lee and no chance that they would even consider trading Horford for Lee. That is a joke.

What about the other two?

Meanwhile I think two things are true:
1. More teams would rather have Lee than Horford
2. Lee would get more money on the open market than Horford
Your thoughts?

[The GM]

Personally I think way too much emphasis goes into team record

1 player cannot:
-What players they have around them
-How the players aroung them play or fit (generally speaking)
-The decision management makes in trades, drafts or signings
-The quality of the coaching
-Injuries
-etc...

If a C (or player that is listed at C) was to be chosen for the ASG, I think Lee, Lopez and Bogut were all more deserving than Horford since they are all better players with better production AND I think the Hawks would be a better team with any of them over Horford AND trade Horford straight up for any of them....as would most any team.

I agree with mostly you said I don't think team success should matter cause there are more factors then just you but If your on a all time terrible team like the Nets, I don't know if you deserve to go to the ASG.

[tontoz]

What about the other two?

Meanwhile I think two things are true:
1. More teams would rather have Lee than Horford
2. Lee would get more money on the open market than Horford
Your thoughts?

Bogut and Lopez would get consideration for sure. They have size and the Hawks need that. Personally i thought Bogut would be in the All-Star game.

Horford and Lee will both be free agents this summer. However Lee will be unrestricted. Generally restricted fa's get very few, if any, offers. Josh Smith only got one offer very late.

I think both will be adversely affected by the looming CBA negotiations next year so neither will get as much money as they could a year or two ago.

But no all things being equal i don't think Lee would have as much value as Horford on the open market. He wouldn't be playing center on other teams. He wouldn't be able to have to scoring advantage he currently enjoys on a typical team playing the 4. Witness Horford clowining him in their three games against each other.

[Go Getter]

Personally I think way too much emphasis goes into team record

1 player cannot:
-What players they have around them
-How the players aroung them play or fit (generally speaking)
-The decision management makes in trades, drafts or signings
-The quality of the coaching
-Injuries
-etc...

If a C (or player that is listed at C) was to be chosen for the ASG, I think Lee, Lopez and Bogut were all more deserving than Horford since they are all better players with better production AND I think the Hawks would be a better team with any of them over Horford AND trade Horford straight up for any of them....as would most any team.

Horford plays better defense than all of those Centers....people always look at stats but where is the stat for shutting down your man or holding him under his average?

[jonathan]

I am not saying it about every player. I am saying it about Lee. He is playing center because of D'Antoni's system. Nash is a pg regardless of where he plays.

Lee, just like Diaw, benefited offensively by moving to center because big, slow centers struggle to keep up with him. However Lee, just like Diaw, struggles to defend bigger players. The Knicks are 26th in the NBA in pts in the paint defense and Lee's inability to guard bigger players is a big reason why.

Agree with you on this. I'm not sure if he'd be AS effective (on offense) as a power forward. But I'm not so sure. I think the situation D'Antoni put him in (playing him at center) helped him develop as a player and give him confidence. He's been hitting his jumper even when contested and he's always been really strong at finishing around the basket undersized. I think his offensive skills would translate well as a 4 and he wouldn't be too undersized on defense so his apparent D would be better.

[Poodle]

Horford plays better defense than all of those Centers....people always look at stats but where is the stat for shutting down your man or holding him under his average?


i swear so many of you here over emphasize a players defense or lack thereof. how many star players has horford shut out? star players will still abuse him. lets be realistic here he's not the glove. nor most defending big men that aren't specialists. name me all of these superstar big men that are such shut down defenders every game? high% scoring makes up for any lack of defense lee may have considering there aren't many players right now that can shoot at lee's fg% with as many shots he's taking. while you have chuckers on every team consistently shooting low fg%'s and way dumber shots. horford is more like that guy that will occasionally box out and get a clutch offensive board or fight for it, hit a mid range jumper, or finish but he's NOWHERE near this shutdown defender some of you are pretending right now.

i swear he's extremely overrated but theres only like 2 people here arguing he's so great anyways. people are entitled to their opinion but i don't think they're being realistic more than homer. horford wouldn't get nearly what lee would right now in the open market, thats crazy. its like pretending perkins who's more a defensive specialist would get more than Al Jefferson. Al isn't a great defender either but puts up numbers, so does he suck worse than k.Perkins/horford too based on D?

you guys need to be more realiistic here and watch each play in a game and tell me which big men are shutting down their man EVERY play or even close, and if thats going on anywhere near as consistently as someone able to carry their team offensively at a high%. great offense beats good defense. if people want to keep pointing to lee's numbers being inflated because the knicks have no talent, then you have to give lee a LOT of credit shooting at the % he does with supposedly no talent around him. most stars around the league couldn't even do that.

honestly if you want to talk great defenders then you're talking specialists here, and not general players. horford isn't a specialist, he's more a fan favorite, hard worker, that has sort of a mid range shot, and can finish and bang. lee is a upcoming superstar.

[tontoz]

i swear so many of you here over emphasize a players defense or lack thereof. how many star players has horford shut out? star players will still abuse him.


Star players other than David Lee. :oldlol:

[Poodle]

Star players other than David Lee. :oldlol:


this isn't personal. i don't know why you're taking it that way. its not lee vs horford in a direct sense, but more which is the better player overall. 1 game against each other in the big picture means nothing.

i'm not even a knicks homer but i've watched them a lot and lee is one of the most underrated players in the league. i said this weeks/month ago and people laughed at me, including some knicks fans. now he's finally getting some credit. i just don't think most people who haven't watched him know to really give him that credit, while its natural they will push their own team's player as better. goes on here all of the time. i don't blame you for what its worth.

[ChuckOakley]

Star players other than David Lee. :oldlol:
That's ok, I'm sure Lee would rather have 2 down games, 1 good one and 2 out of 3 wins versus Atlanta, rather than go 1-2 against them.

BTW.. how did you guys manage to lose to NY twice at home this season?

[tontoz]

That's ok, I'm sure Lee would rather have 2 down games, 1 good one and 2 out of 3 wins versus Atlanta, rather than go 1-2 against them.

BTW.. how did you guys manage to lose to NY twice at home this season?

The Hawks shot 50 three pointers in two games, making only 11. They should have taken it to the basket more.

Meanwhile the Knicks shot 45% from 3 in those two games, twice as good.

Lee had nothing to do with the 3 pt disparity but by all means keep reaching. You arguments are getting weaker with each post.

[tontoz]

this isn't personal. i don't know why you're taking it that way. its not lee vs horford in a direct sense, but more which is the better player overall. 1 game against each other in the big picture means nothing.



It wasn't one game. It was 3. In those three games Horford has outscored Lee by 9, shot 13% better from the field and outrebounded him by over 3 a game.

That is ownage.

[ChuckOakley]

It wasn't one game. It was 3. In those three games Horford has outscored Lee by 9, shot 13% better from the field and outrebounded him by over 3 a game.

That is ownage.
3 games
2 NY wins

talk about a reach.

[tontoz]

3 games
2 NY wins

talk about a reach.


LOL so David Lee is the reason the Knicks shot twice as good as the Hawks from 3?

Horford clowned Lee. It isn't his fault the Hawks kept jacking threes and missing. No telling how many he would have scored if the guards would have had some sense and fed him . Lee sure couldn't stop him.

[Undisputed]

In the two years before D'Antoni got there Lee averaged 10.7 and 10.8 ppg playing 29 minutes.
So if D'Antoni came to the Bulls, Noah or Tyrus Thomas would be 20/10 guys? No way. How many times have you watched David Lee over the past two years? It can't be many. Be honest.

[tontoz]

So if D'Antoni came to the Bulls, Noah or Tyrus Thomas would be 20/10 guys? No way. How many times have you watched David Lee over the past two years? It can't be many. Be honest.


Noah is already playing center. Noah isn't going to score well anywhere because he can't shoot. Bad analogy.


Lee was playing the 4 before D'Antoni got there and was moved to center. He has an easy time beating big, slow centers off the dribble. I wish Horford would do more of this but he seems more comfortable playing with his back to the basket.

Lee is in the east and the Hawks are gong to play them at least 3 times a year so i have seen him many times. Plus i catch some other games on LP. He is a good rebounder but there is no way I would trade Horford for him. People talk about Lee's improved jumper but he still doesn't shoot as high a percentage on his jumpers as Horford.

[Tool]

Lee and Kaman didn't get robbed just look at the teams they're on. My Raptors are much better. ha

[RaininThrees]

Lee and Kaman didn't get robbed just look at the teams they're on. My Raptors are much better. ha

Let's not get cocky...

[knickballer]

06/07 29.8 min/ 10.7 ppg, 10.4 rebounds
07/08 29.1 min/ 10.8 ppg, 8.9 rebounds

Please point out the big improvement.

Yeah cause Al Horford has improved tremendously from his rookie season going from 10.1ppg to 13ppg...:ohwell:

[ChuckOakley]

Noah is already playing center. Noah isn't going to score well anywhere because he can't shoot. Bad analogy.


Lee was playing the 4 before D'Antoni got there and was moved to center. He has an easy time beating big, slow centers off the dribble. I wish Horford would do more of this but he seems more comfortable playing with his back to the basket.

Lee is in the east and the Hawks are gong to play them at least 3 times a year so i have seen him many times. Plus i catch some other games on LP. He is a good rebounder but there is no way I would trade Horford for him. People talk about Lee's improved jumper but he still doesn't shoot as high a percentage on his jumpers as Horford.

Wow, just stop.

Lee has played a ton of C for NY since he got there.
Look at the other Centers they had and how little they played.... Curry, Jerome James, R.Morris, Darko.

Also, you all but admitted you haven't seen much of Lee (other than maybe this season against ATL) because you had to ask me and I had to explain to you how his offensive game has grown leaps and bounds in recent years.

[Tool]

Lee has a sick game hes career will definitely be fun to follow. Hes a free agent at the end of the season, so we'll see where he ends up. Would be nice to see a double double guy like him play for a winner thats for sure. :roll:

[tontoz]

Wow, just stop.

Lee has played a ton of C for NY since he got there.
Look at the other Centers they had and how little they played.... Curry, Jerome James, R.Morris, Darko.



Looks like you don't even know your own team. In 06/07 Curry played 81 games and 35 minutes per game. The next year he played 59 games and played 26 minutes a game. I doubt he spent much time at the 4.

Lee's offense improved once D'Antoni got there. I already knew that. I was asking you to explain his improvement before D'Antoni got there and I am still waiting for the answer.

[Undisputed]

Noah is already playing center. Noah isn't going to score well anywhere because he can't shoot. Bad analogy.
I really am not trying to get into a Horford Vs. Lee battle here. I just hate it when people say the only way Lee is putting up 19(damn near 20) points and 11 rebounds is only because of D'Antoni. That's complete crap because not everyone is capable of that kind of producion. Since you don't like the Noah analogy, how about Tyrus? He has a jumpshot. You think Tyrus Thomas would average 20/10 on over 50% from the field under D'Antoni if moved to center? Definitely not.

Lee's jump shot and overall feel for the game has been improving, which is why there has been a spike in his numbers. He'd put up the same kind(or very similar) numbers on any team that's lacking a scoring big man right now. Just my opinion.

[knickballer]

Looks like you don't even know your own team. In 06/07 Curry played 81 games and 35 minutes per game. The next year he played 59 games and played 26 minutes a game. I doubt he spent much time at the 4.

Lee's offense improved once D'Antoni got there. I already knew that. I was asking you to explain his improvement before D'Antoni got there and I am still waiting for the answer.


Because the roster was a ****ing mess. We had players like Zach Randolph, Eddy Curry starting as bigs and both were black holes who demanded the ball every possesion. We also had guards like Marbury, Francis, Crawford, Q-Rich who were ball hogs as well. A young player like David Lee didn't get any touches and had to get offensive rebounds for his points. I wanna see Al Horford as a rookie playing with the Knick teams of the Isiah era....

[ChuckOakley]

Looks like you don't even know your own team. In 06/07 Curry played 81 games and 35 minutes per game. The next year he played 59 games and played 26 minutes a game. I doubt he spent much time at the 4.

Lee's offense improved once D'Antoni got there. I already knew that. I was asking you to explain his improvement before D'Antoni got there and I am still waiting for the answer.

Of course I knew that 1 YEAR while David Lee was there, Eddie Curry played major minutes and alot of games... you pointed out how few minutes and how few games Curry played outside of that year further proving my point. Thanks.

[tontoz]

I really am not trying to get into a Horford Vs. Lee battle here. I just hate it when people say the only way Lee is putting up 19(damn near 20) points and 11 rebounds is only because of D'Antoni. That's complete crap because not everyone is capable of that kind of producion. Since you don't like the Noah analogy, how about Tyrus? He has a jumpshot. You think Tyrus Thomas would average 20/10 on over 50% from the field under D'Antoni if moved to center? Definitely not.

Lee's jump shot and overall feel for the game has been improving, which is why there has been a spike in his numbers. He'd put up the same kind(or very similar) numbers on any team that's lacking a scoring big man right now. Just my opinion.


Lee is shooting a whopping 3% better on jumpers this year than he did during the 07/08 season. Is this the big improvement everyone is talking about?

http://www.82games.com/0708/07NYK11A.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK12.HTM


Horford is shooting 6% better on jumpers this year than he did last year.

[ChuckOakley]

Looks like you don't even know your own team. In 06/07 Curry played 81 games and 35 minutes per game. The next year he played 59 games and played 26 minutes a game. I doubt he spent much time at the 4.

Lee's offense improved once D'Antoni got there. I already knew that. I was asking you to explain his improvement before D'Antoni got there and I am still waiting for the answer.

Players are only allowed to improve during their first couple of years?

I was not aware.

I thought a 26 year old was still short of his prime, and with extra minutes and experience would be able to improve his offensive numbers. My bad.

[tontoz]

Of course I knew that 1 YEAR while David Lee was there, Eddie Curry played major minutes and alot of games... you pointed out how few minutes and how few games Curry played outside of that year further proving my point. Thanks.

And yet Lee's production didn't go up at all the next year when Curry's minutes went way down. Care to explain?

[tontoz]

Players are only allowed to improve during their first couple of years?

I was not aware.

I thought a 26 year old was still short of his prime, and with extra minutes and experience would be able to improve his offensive numbers. My bad.


Like i said you didn't answer the question. Denial is not a river in Egypt.

[ChuckOakley]

Lee is shooting a whopping 3% better on jumpers this year than he did during the 07/08 season. Is this the big improvement everyone is talking about?

http://www.82games.com/0708/07NYK11A.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK12.HTM


Horford is shooting 6% better on jumpers this year than he did last year.

Yes.

His range has improved and he's willing and able to shoot when he has coverage on him, as opposed to shooting from closer in and only when he is wide open.

Generally shooting from further away while being defended results in a lower FG%, and yet his is up.

Further showing you know little about David Lee's game and development. Keep it coming.

[Undisputed]

Lee is shooting a whopping 3% better on jumpers this year than he did during the 07/08 season. Is this the big improvement everyone is talking about?

http://www.82games.com/0708/07NYK11A.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK12.HTM


Horford is shooting 6% better on jumpers this year than he did last year.

I said I was not trying to get into the Horford Vs. Lee.

Lee's improvement shows in his numbers and every day he plays, regardless of the little things you're trying to find to debunk anything positive about him. His jump shot has improved, even if it's slightly, that makes a huge difference for a big.

[ChuckOakley]

Like i said you didn't answer the question. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
What is the question exactly?
And also what is your point? Why does it matter what Lee did 3 years ago, or when he developed his offensive game, as long as he has?

[tontoz]

Yes.

His range has improved and he's willing and able to shoot when he has coverage on him, as opposed to shooting from closer in and only when he is wide open.

Generally shooting from further away while being defended results in a lower FG%, and yet his is up.

Further showing you know little about David Lee's game and development. Keep it coming.

I know all about it. It happened once D'Antoni got there.

You can't point to any major improvements that he made pre-DAntoni. You can't explain why his numbers didn't go up when Curry's minutes went way down in the 07/08 season. You just avoid the elephant in the room but that doesn't mean it is going away.

[Undisputed]

Further showing you know little about David Lee's game and development. Keep it coming.
Sadly, this is the fact here. Completely obvious.

[tontoz]

What is the question exactly?


Where was all the big (or any) improvement the season before D'Antoni got there?



*waits for next dodge*

[Undisputed]

I know all about it. It happened once D'Antoni got there.

You can't point to any major improvements that he made pre-DAntoni. You can't explain why his numbers didn't go up when Curry's minutes went way down in the 07/08 season. You just avoid the elephant in the room but that doesn't mean it is going away.

So a player can't improve after their third year?This would make sense if David Lee was in the league for 6 years or more and suddenly his numbers spiked under a certain coach, but you're talking about a guy who right now is in his fifth season. Young players develop and get better. That's what happens when there's talent involved.

[ChuckOakley]

I know all about it. It happened once D'Antoni got there.

You can't point to any major improvements that he made pre-DAntoni. You can't explain why his numbers didn't go up when Curry's minutes went way down in the 07/08 season. You just avoid the elephant in the room but that doesn't mean it is going away.
What I don't understand is why does it matter tha he did not improve offensivley 3 or 4 years ago as a much younger player, playing for inept coach (Isiah) with an inept set of teammates?

The point is, anyone who watches him play, realizes he is doing things on offense he was not able to do 3-4 years ago regardless of his coach or system at the time.

The Knick announcers make note of the following regularly:

Ability to take him man off the dribble
Stronger and better finihsing skills
Much improved jump shot
Improvement in the post
Improved passing
etc....

You can't counter any of the above, because you clearly have not followed Lee like a NYK fan would have. Anyone who has, would. It's that simple.

[tontoz]

So a player can't improve after their third year?This would make sense if David Lee was in the league for 6 years or more and suddenly his numbers spiked under a certain coach, but you're talking about a guy who right now is in his fifth season. Young players develop and get better. That's what happens when there's talent involved.


Typical. You can't make a coherent argument so you have to make up a strawman. Please point out where i said a player can't improve after their 3rd year.

[tontoz]

What I don't understand is why does it matter tha he did not improve offensivley 3 or 4 years ago as a much younger player, playing for inept coach (Isiah) with an inept set of teammates?

The point is, anyone who watches him play, realizes he is doing things on offense he was not able to do 3-4 years ago regardless of his coach or system at the time.

The Knick announcers make note of the following regularly:

Ability to take him man off the dribble
Stronger and better finihsing skills
Much improved jump shot
Improvement in the post
Improved passing
etc....

You can't counter any of the above, because you clearly have not followed Lee like a NYK fan would have. Anyone who has, would. It's that simple.


I can counter it very easily. When a player makes no noticable improvement between years 2 and 3, then makes a huge jump between 3 and 4, then the likely reason is the coaching/position change.

You are trying to deny the obvious.

[Undisputed]

Typical. You can't make a coherent argument so you have to make up a strawman. Please point out where i said a player can't improve after their 3rd year.
Anyone reading this can see that your arguments are filled with complete ignorance. :oldlol:

You're saying point out improvements before D'Antoni, and you're talking about a third year player. You're basically saying D'Antoni is the only reason he puts up the numbers he has had in the past two season as if to say he wouldn't have had them otherwise.

[Undisputed]

I can counter it very easily. When a player makes no noticable improvement between years 2 and 3, then makes a huge jump between 3 and 4, then the likely reason is the coaching/position change.

You are trying to deny the obvious.

Wow, this is a joke.

One of those types not even worth arguing with.

[ChuckOakley]

Where was all the big (or any) improvement the season before D'Antoni got there?



*waits for next dodge*
Yes, there was.
Look at his pre-All star break numbers, versus his post ASG numbers in 2007-2008, or ven his stats in the last 10 games.

10/8 pre all star games
12/10 post all star
13/10 last 10 games


http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/david-lee/profile/08/20/288/17

Again, I'm not sure the relevance.

As we've shown
-NYK only scores 0.5 ppg more than average
-Not every player can benefit from D'Antoni (Nash, Amare, Marion, Diaw, Nate, Chandler, Gallinari, Harrington etc.)
-NY doesn't have the Nash type PG that players like Marion, Amare and Diaw had when playing for D'Antoni
-David Lee has improved with age and PT and is only 26

[tontoz]

Anyone reading this can see that your arguments are filled with complete ignorance. :oldlol:

You're saying point out improvements before D'Antoni, and you're talking about a third year player. You're basically saying D'Antoni is the only reason he puts up the numbers he has had in the past two season as if to say he wouldn't have had them otherwise.

I knew you could find anything. Thanks for proving my point.


When a player goes from zero improvment in scoring to a nearly 50% improvement in one year, it is pretty obvious that it isn't just the normal progression of a young player. That is basic common sense which you obviously lack.

[Undisputed]

Yes, there was.
Look at his pre-All star break numbers, versus his post ASG numbers in 2007-2008, or ven his stats in the last 10 games.

10/8 pre all star games
12/10 post all star
13/10 last 10 games


http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/david-lee/profile/08/20/288/17

Again, I'm not sure the relevance.

As we've shown
-NYK only scores 0.5 ppg more than average
-Not every player can benefit from D'Antoni (Nash, Amare, Marion, Diaw, Nate, Chandler, Gallinari, Harrington etc.)
-NY doesn't have the Nash type PG that players like Marion, Amare and Diaw had when playing for D'Antoni
-David Lee has improved with age and PT and is only 26

I wouldn't even continue if I were you. Regardless of what you type, it will make no difference to a hard head.

[ChuckOakley]

I can counter it very easily. When a player makes no noticable improvement between years 2 and 3, then makes a huge jump between 3 and 4, then the likely reason is the coaching/position change.

You are trying to deny the obvious.
Let me ask you this..

Has Lee improved at:

His ability to take him man off the dribble
Developing stronger and better finihsing skills
His jump shot and range
His moves in the post
Passing

?

If so, how has D'Antoni managed to help him do these individually, please explain?
If not, you don't know what you are talking about.

[Undisputed]

I knew you could find anything. Thanks for proving my point.


When a player goes from zero improvment in scoring to a nearly 50% improvement in one year, it is pretty obvious that it isn't just the normal progression of a young player. That is basic common sense which you obviously lack.

Okay. We'll see. David Lee is a free agent next season and will more than likely leave the Knicks. Bookmarked for future reference. :pimp:

You're an ignorant fool in this argument who hasn't watched David Lee play outside of national TV games. Keep using 82games.com to act like you know something.

[tontoz]

Yes, there was.
Look at his pre-All star break numbers, versus his post ASG numbers in 2007-2008, or ven his stats in the last 10 games.

10/8 pre all star games
12/10 post all star
13/10 last 10 games


http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/new-york-knicks/players/david-lee/profile/08/20/288/17

Again, I'm not sure the relevance.



:roll:

His post All-Star scoring per 48 went up a whopping .1 ppg over his pre All-Star scoring. I guess you put me in my place.

[tontoz]

Okay. We'll see. David Lee is a free agent next season and will more than likely leave the Knicks. Bookmarked for future reference. :pimp:

You're an ignorant fool in this argument who hasn't watched David Lee play outside of national TV games. Keep using 82games.com to act like you know something.

I watch Horford make Lee his biatch. Sorry you missed it.

[ChuckOakley]

:roll:

His post All-Star scoring per 48 went up a whopping .1 ppg over his pre All-Star scoring. I guess you put me in my place.
Now if only I could put you in math class.

:ohwell:


May want to check those numbers again.

[ChuckOakley]

Or try this math:
8.5/7.5 1st month of season
13/10 last month of season

Can you figure out
a. The numerical increase?
b. The percentage increase?

Bonus points if you do it in less than 1 hour.

[tontoz]

Tontoz is just a butthurt Atlanta fan. He knows Lee is better than Horford, but he just can't see past his horse blinders.

You are just mad that the Knicks are 26th in the NBA in pts in the paint defense because their center only blocks .3 shots per game.

[ChuckOakley]

Now if only I could put you in math class.

:ohwell:


May want to check those numbers again.
BTW.. I missed your little "per 48"

Gotta love a stats that assume players wouldn't tire and would produce at the same rate if they played 10 minutes or 48 minutes. Meanwhile do you think there was a reason he was playing more minutes then, or even this season? NY is loaded with big men, ya know.

[tontoz]

Or try this math:
8.5/7.5 1st month of season
13/10 last month of season

Can you figure out
a. The numerical increase?
b. The percentage increase?

Bonus points if you do it in less than 1 hour.


Per minute his scoring was only .1 ppg different pre and post All-Star. Just because he got more minutes doesn't mean he was more productive but that is probably over your head. He only played 24 minutes in November. Do i have to explain per minute stats to you?

Since you probably aren't aware of this scoring is consistently higher leaguewide during the last month since many teams have given up on the season.

[tontoz]

BTW.. I missed your little "per 48"

Gotta love a stats that assume players wouldn't tire and would produce at the same rate if they played 10 minutes or 48 minutes. Meanwhile do you think there was a reason he was playing more minutes then, or even this season? NY is loaded with big men, ya know.

I knew you didn't understand per minute stats. it has nothing to do with assuming players would produce at that rate if they played the whole game. It doesn't matter if it is per 48, per 36 or per 25, his per minute scoring didn't improve at all.

[ChuckOakley]

Per minute his scoring was only .1 ppg different pre and post All-Star. Just because he got more minutes doesn't mean he was more productive but that is probably over your head. He only played 24 minutes in November. Do i have to explain per minute stats to you?

Since you probably aren't aware of this scoring is consistently higher leaguewide during the last month since many teams have given up on the season.
:roll:
Is there empirical evidence of this?
How about teams play their scrubs that can't score?

So no matter what, if I show you he improved over the course of the season, that is you argument? So why ask for proof of improvement if you won't accept it?

:wtf:

Here's a per 48 stats
November 07 - 17 pp48
April 08 - 21 pp48

A 24% increase.

[ChuckOakley]

I knew you didn't understand per minute stats. it has nothing to do with assuming players would produce at that rate if they played the whole game. It doesn't matter if it is per 48, per 36 or per 25, his per minute scoring didn't improve at all.

Wow you are dense.

So player A at the beginning of the season is a high energy sub and plays 8 minutes a game and scores 8 point in those 8 minutes.

He thus would average 48 point per 48.

You think, if the same player became a full time starter, his scoring average would be the same and he would average close to 48 points per game?

Interesting.

I would think player A would tire quickly playing closer to 40 minutes a game and his scoring efficiency would drop, but that's just me.

[tontoz]

Wow you are dense.

So player A at the beginning of the season is a high energy sub and plays 8 minutes a game and scores 8 point in those 8 minutes.

He thus would average 48 point per 48.




Please point out any example in the history of the game similar to that scenario. Thanks

[ChuckOakley]

Please point out any example in the history of the game similar to that scenario. Thanks

It's logic.
Show me one that supports your argument that a player will produce the same amount of PP48 regardless of if he plays 10 minutes per game one half the season or 40 minutes the second half.

I would guess his PP48 would be higher when he is playing less minutes (say David Lee pre-ASG)
and
I would guess hiss PP48 minutes would be lower when he is playing more minutes (say David Lee post-ASG)

Meanwhile please answer this:

Let me ask you this..

Over his career, Has Lee improved at:

His ability to take his man off the dribble
Developing stronger and better finihsing skills
His jump shot and range
His moves in the post
Passing

If so, how has D'Antoni managed to help him do these individually?
Detailed examples or explanations would be nice.

If not, you don't know what you are talking about.

[tontoz]

It's logic.
Show me one that supports your argument that a player will produce the same amount of PP48 regardless of if he plays 10 minutes per game one half the season or 40 minutes the second half.




I knew you couldnt come up with any examples because you are talking out of your ***.

You wouldn't know logic if it sat on your lap and called you momma. In fact per minute stats are a very reliable indicator of a players future production, given a legit sample size.

In the case of young players per minute stats generally UNDERESTIMATE a players future production. The reason should be obvious. It is because young players generally improve over time.

Lee is a perfect example. In his rookie year he played 17 minutes per game. His per 48 averages were 14.4/13. The next year he played 29 minutes per game. His per 48s were 17.8/17.3. They went up, not down.

[ChuckOakley]

I knew you couldnt come up with any examples because you are talking out of your ***.

You wouldn't know logic if it sat on your lap and called you momma. In fact per minute stats are a very reliable indicator of a players future production, given a legit sample size.

In the case of young players per minute stats generally UNDERESTIMATE a players future production. The reason should be obvious. It is because young players generally improve over time.

Lee is a perfect example. In his rookie year he played 17 minutes per game. His per 48 averages were 14.4/13. The next year he played 29 minutes per game. His per 48s were 17.8/17.3. They went up, not down.

Wait you mean, you yourself showed Lee made improvement between seasons before D'Antoni?!

So what are you asking me for?!

I showed improvement a season level, but you actually answered your own question between seasons. Good job!

Now about those other questions I asked you......

[tontoz]

Wait you mean, you yourself showed Lee made improvement between seasons before D'Antoni?!

So what are you asking me for?!

I showed improvement a season level, but you actually answered your own question between seasons. Good job!

Now about those other questions I asked you......

Yet again proving that you don't understand per minute stats.

I won't wait for any evidence to support your point per minute example. You have probably forgotten about it already.

Moving on to his second and third seasons he played the same minutes and scored at the exact same rate. Then his per minute scoring jumped 25% the following season.

That is not normal progression and suggests external factors led to the increase. However i am sure you won't understand any of this.

[tontoz]

It's logic.
Over his career, Has Lee improved at:

His ability to take his man off the dribble
Developing stronger and better finihsing skills
His jump shot and range
His moves in the post
Passing



So why was none of this improvement in evidence between his second and third seasons?


*crickets*


If so, how has D'Antoni managed to help him do these individually?
Detailed examples or explanations would be nice.

If not, you don't know what you are talking about

Very simply. He moved Lee to center where he was guarded by bigger, slower players that are easier to beat off the dribble and are less likely to contest jumpers.

[ChuckOakley]

:lol
So we should or should not use per 48?
Only for years outside their rookie years and when it helps yoru argument?

BTW.. who is playing dodge ball now? Won't answer my questions and simply are harping on when Lee showed improvement?

Guess what Lee has produced more under D'Antoni, your point?
Is he not allowed to get better nor supposed to?

[ChuckOakley]

So why was none of this improvement in evidence between his second and third seasons?


*crickets*



Very simply. He moved Lee to center where he was guarded by bigger, slower players that are easier to beat off the dribble and are less likely to contest jumpers.

1.
a.You already showeds improvement between his 1st and 2nd, why can't we use that?
b.I showed improvement between beginning of 3rd season and end, why can't we use that?

2.
a. Lee has played C the majority of his time in NY other than the 1 season Curry was healthy and played big minutes.
b. So why does a player that didn't have a jump shot until part way through last season shoot such a high percentage and why is he such a good finisher and rebounder?
c. He can only play where the coach plays him.. his fault?

[tontoz]

:lol
So we should or should not use per 48?
Only for years outside their rookie years and when it helps yoru argument?

BTW.. who is playing dodge ball now? Won't answer my questions and simply are harping on when Lee showed improvement?

Guess what Lee has produced more under D'Antoni, your point?
Is he not allowed to get better nor supposed to?

There is no difference between using per 48 or per 36 or per 29. The per minute numbers are the same.

Secondly the fact is that Lee's big per minute jump occurred AFTER D'Antoni got there, not before. In the season before D'Antoni got there his scoring didn't improve at all. Of course you consistently dodge this fact but that doesn't mean it is going away.

[ChuckOakley]

There is no difference between using per 48 or per 36 or per 29. The per minute numbers are the same.

Secondly the fact is that Lee's big per minute jump occurred AFTER D'Antoni got there, not before. In the season before D'Antoni got there his scoring didn't improve at all. Of course you consistently dodge this fact but that doesn't mean it is going away.

Can you explain your point in talking about when a player improves and why that matters?

Also, why does it matter that improved his game over the summer after IT? Clearly he saw what he needed to do and di it.

Over his career, Has Lee improved at:

His ability to take his man off the dribble
Developing stronger and better finihsing skills
His jump shot and range
His moves in the post
Passing

So you said no to all of these?

[tontoz]

1.
a.You already showeds improvement between his 1st and 2nd, why can't we use that?
b.I showed improvement between beginning of 3rd season and end, why can't we use that?

2.
a. Lee has played C the majority of his time in NY other than the 1 season Curry was healthy and played big minutes.
b. So why does a player that didn't have a jump shot until part way through last season shoot such a high percentage and why is he such a good finisher and rebounder?
c. He can only play where the coach plays him.. his fault?

a. we can use it. the fact that he improved the first year and leveled off the second year is certainly noteworthy.
b. no you didn't. He merely got more minutes. He didn't show any scoring improvement after the All-Star break.

2. a Curry played 27 minutes per game in his second season. Sorry not buying it.
b. he had a jump shot. He shot 40.5% on his jumpers before D'Antoni got there. Compare that to Josh Smiths current 30%. He has always been a better than average rebounder but his numbers didn't look quite as good with Randolph next to him. I wonder why.
c. I agree. I am not blaming him for doing as he is told.

[tontoz]

Can you explain your point in talking about when a player improves and why that matters?

Also, why does it matter that improved his game over the summer after IT? Clearly he saw what he needed to do and di it.

Over his career, Has Lee improved at:

His ability to take his man off the dribble
Developing stronger and better finihsing skills
His jump shot and range
His moves in the post
Passing

So you said no to all of these?

Because if he showed big improvement between his second and third season it would prove D'Antoni wasn't the reason for it. Duh

[bdreason]

If we aren't considering team record, Lopez deserves it over Lee.

Next question.

[Undisputed]

If we aren't considering team record, Lopez deserves it over Lee.

Next question.

Without a doubt. If the Nets weren't feeble and quite possibily the worst team ever, he probably would've made it. That's another guy who I feel would be just as good on a contending team. Lopez is a beast. He's the next big thing at center. A lot of people will disagree with that, but I'm pretty confident.

[ChuckOakley]

Lee's stats, play and consistency has been much better than Lopez's, and Lopez is probably my favorite player on my favorite team.

[tontoz]

Without a doubt. If the Nets weren't feeble and quite possibily the worst team ever, he probably would've made it. That's another guy who I feel would be just as good on a contending team. Lopez is a beast. He's the next big thing at center. A lot of people will disagree with that, but I'm pretty confident.

I like Lopez. He has looked good the times i have seen him and you can't teach size.

He has a huge ft advantage over Bogut. I think he will make the team more than once if NJ gets back to respecability.

[Bigsmoke]

Brook Lopez could be the best center in the league if he continues to improve. He already has a solid little post game down low and gotta nice flame for a guy his height. He kinda reminded me of Yao Ming in his first 2 year in the league and their numbers are identical

Yao Ming
13.5ppg 8.2RPG 1.8 BPG
17.5ppg 9.0RPG 1.9 BPG

Brook Lopez
13PPG 8.1RPG 1.8 BPG
19ppg 9.4RPG 2.0 BPG

[bagelred]

Can you believe it?

[Samurai Jack]

http://thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/chris-kaman.jpg

HI MY NAME IS CHRIS KAMAN AND I WAS NOT ONLY ROBBED BUT I HAD MY BALLS GRABBED BY A PLAYER BEFORE

this/thread

if kaman gets in, then you can complain.

where is the kaman "robbed" thread??

[artest 93]

Brook Lopez could be the best center in the league if he continues to improve. He already has a solid little post game down low and gotta nice flame for a guy his height. He kinda reminded me of Yao Ming in his first 2 year in the league and their numbers are identical

Yao Ming
13.5ppg 8.2RPG 1.8 BPG
17.5ppg 9.0RPG 1.9 BPG

Brook Lopez
13PPG 8.1RPG 1.8 BPG
19ppg 9.4RPG 2.0 BPG

Again, team record is and should be considered. 4-40 or w/e is not going to get you into the all star game. Kevin Martin and Monte Ellis are what I would call fraudulent stat padders. They can go 26/5/5 on 50% FG and it would still be very meaningless to the team.

I'm not saying that's entirely Brook Lopez's fault, but as a starter, he definitely shares the blame.

I personally don't think any "star" from a team with less than a .500 record should be in the all-star game. 4-40 is ridiculous and inexcusable.

[G.O.A.T]

Lee was correctly left off the team because of his teams record.

His stats are great, but stats are meaningless when measuring the value of a player other than to show that players role on his team and what "type" of player he is.

He is an improved offensive player, an above average rebounder and a poor defender.

I like his offensive game a lot and think he helps most teams, but unless he is your power forward and you have a shot blocker at the five, you are not beating any good teams in a series with him as your 1st or 2nd option.

[jonathan]

Because if he showed big improvement between his second and third season it would prove D'Antoni wasn't the reason for it. Duh

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.

[G.O.A.T]

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.

[jonathan]

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.

Well I completely agree with that. For example, his both assist and TO's are up this year because he's handling the ball more. But stats don't tell the whole story. His game is completely different this year. He was always terrific around the basket. Be he was never a go-to guy, he never had a reliable jumpshot, he was never this creative off the dribble with the ball, etc. So I guess my point was if you've seen these improvements in his development you cannot simply attribute them to the system. His starts are better this year because he's simply a better player.

[Poodle]

I don't watch the Knicks much, but I;ve seen there games against Detroit and parts of a few others. I think what Tontaz is saying is that Lee's stats suggest he is a better player than he is because of the pace the Knicks play at the the players around him.

If he was on a team like Atlanta for example he'd average less shots therefore less points. Play fewer possessions and alongside bigger, better rebounders, therefore fewer rebounds and touch the ball on fewer possessions therefore fewer assists.

Lee is a terrific player and example of what hard work and a willingness to do what the team asks and\or needs of you can do for you. But until he plays for a winner or has an (significant) impact on both ends of the floor, he's not an all-star.


lol do you know how many offensive focused all stars there have been that weren't great defenders? like most of them.

most people here just do not know how good lee is. thats what this all boils down to. and it still takes talent to get numbers on bad teams considering they aren't getting the easy passes/support to make those numbers happen like players on good teams. if he's doing it at a high% which he is, then that means a lot more. look at NJ, all of them more or less have some awful numbers and no consistency, including lopez, and are very wishy washy but you all pretend its so easy getting numbers on bad teams. last i checked a mid range shot is a mid range shot is a mid range shot. good or bad team has very little to do with being able to drain them.

[tontoz]

Seriously man, drop it. It's completely obvious you haven't watched the knicks at all outside of their games vs atlanta. D'Antoni's "system" cannot be responsible for Lee's improvement in jumpshot, moves around the basket, ball handling, etc. This isn't a video game. It's not like D'Antoni came in and Lee automatically leveled up, increased his HP and magic levels and all of a sudden he's a much better player.

A system can affect stats, but most of the posts here, like from Chuck, aren't even talking about stats. We're talking about things we can see in his game that he worked on in the offseason and now he's getting tangible results with. It's pretty damned obvious to anyone who's watched any knicks games.


I guess Lee didn't work on his game at all after his second season, right? :oldlol:

[G.O.A.T]

lol do you know how many offensive focused all stars there have been that weren't great defenders? like most of them.


give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.

[Dresta]

Josh Smith was the real snub here.

[Poodle]

give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.


i don't think lee is below average. i think he's right around average. i don't think he's much different than most big men i watch, that aren't specialists or freaks. not just talking about this year since i figure we're talking in context of being an all star period and i don't have a 2010 all star roster to go by but i'll go off 2009 roster.

amare
ai
dirk
jj


i'd even add kaman if he didn't get snubbed. AlJeff is a pretty piss poor defender too. theres lots of them around the same level as lee, but there are some on a different level but most of them are specialists/freaks. difference is they don't generally get voted into the allstar game if they don't have offense.

[Bigsmoke]

People who thinks David Lee is better than Al Horford just because of his stats. There are not other rebounders on the Knicks and they play a fast pace offense with no defense. If anything, let see how who's better when David Lee and Al Horford go against each other

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=leeda02&p2=horfoal01


Horford wins

[Hotlantadude81]

Team record considered, he statistically DOMINATES Horford and plays hard every night. Team record should only come into play when two players are neck and neck. It shouldn't be the biggest factor. Otherwise why not make Derek Fisher the starting PG over Chris Paul?

Lee couldn't defend a paper bag.

[Blue&Orange]

I guess Lee didn't work on his game at all after his second season, right? :oldlol:
Gerald Wallace improvement was because of D'antoni also... Thank you for being retarded and make me laugh.

[tontoz]

Gerald Wallace improvement was because of D'antoni also... Thank you for being retarded and make me laugh.


Intersting that you brought up Wallace. it just so happens that the Bobcats traded away their leading rebounder Okafor last summer. They traded him for Chandler who hasn't played much due to injury, hence the big increase in GWallace's rebounding.

Wallace averaged 16.6 ppg last year shooting 48% (same as this year) in 4.4 fewer minutes. It isn't like he suddenly became a big scorer this year.

Try again.

[tontoz]

i don't think lee is below average. i think he's right around average. i don't think he's much different than most big men i watch, that aren't specialists or freaks. not just talking about this year since i figure we're talking in context of being an all star period and i don't have a 2010 all star roster to go by but i'll go off 2009 roster.

amare
ai
dirk
jj


i'd even add kaman if he didn't get snubbed. AlJeff is a pretty piss poor defender too. theres lots of them around the same level as lee, but there are some on a different level but most of them are specialists/freaks. difference is they don't generally get voted into the allstar game if they don't have offense.


RIF


Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
give me a list of below average defenders on teams with .400 winning percentages that made the all-star team:

If there are more than five names I'll concede the point.

JJ has never been considered a poor defender FYI. In fact he was seen as a defensive stopper in Phoenix.

[Blue&Orange]

Intersting that you brought up Wallace. it just so happens that the Bobcats traded away their leading rebounder Okafor last summer. They traded him for Chandler who hasn't played much due to injury, hence the big increase in GWallace's rebounding.

Wallace averaged 16.6 ppg last year shooting 48% (same as this year) in 4.4 fewer minutes. It isn't like he suddenly became a big scorer this year.

Try again.
And David Lee went from 16ppg to 19.5ppg with 2 more minutes, it isn't like he suddenly became a big scorer this year:rolleyes:

Bobcats traded Okafor? Well they trade for Jackson too, Gwallace would be getting 30ppg without Jackson in team, and all thanks to D'antoni :violin:

[tontoz]

And David Lee went from 16ppg to 19.5ppg with 2 more minutes, it isn't like he suddenly became a big scorer this year:rolleyes:

Bobcats traded Okafor? Well they trade for Jackson too, Gwallace would be getting 30ppg without Jackson in team, and all thanks to D'antoni :violin:


You're right. Lee didn't become a big scorer this year. His scoring took a big jump the year before when D'Antoni was hired.

[Zan Tabak]

http://thephillyphour.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/chris-kaman.jpg

HI MY NAME IS CHRIS KAMAN AND I WAS NOT ONLY ROBBED BUT I HAD MY BALLS GRABBED BY A PLAYER BEFORE
LOL ..nice...Where's the love for Kaman?...The dudes having a great year but goes unmentioned..

I vote Kaman.

[Da KO King]

Al Horford's inclusion is proof that fans and media members votes should decrease in importance. Horford is a quality player but there are more than a fgew guys playing better than him.

[Hotlantadude81]

Al Horford's inclusion is proof that fans and media members votes should decrease in importance. Horford is a quality player but there are more than a fgew guys playing better than him.

If Horford got more touches he would score more. He shoots 58% and is fairly consistent, but he ain't going to get the shot attempts in a Guard ISO offense. But I'm sure not ready to put a stat padding no defense playing David Lee in there. But Josh should have made it instead.

As for Lopez... He has a really good player... Better than I thought he would be, but his team has THREE wins at midseason. That team might have the worst record of any team ever. So, I'm sorry to say that he gets left off.

[tontoz]

Al Horford's inclusion is proof that fans and media members votes should decrease in importance. Horford is a quality player but there are more than a fgew guys playing better than him.


Given that neither the fans or the media pick the reserves I am having a hard time seeing your "proof".

[Blue&Orange]

You're right. Lee didn't become a big scorer this year. His scoring took a big jump the year before when D'Antoni was hired.
You mean whe he stopped being a bench player and become a starter? :roll:

Why don't we do this the other way around, please show me per36, knicks players that have improved greatly from previous seasons compared to the two seasons under D'antoni.


I'll be waiting for your fail.

[malek4980]

The Knicks pace isn't that impressive. They're really only getting one or two more possessions than an average team.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats?sort=pac&seasonType=2&league=nba&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fteamstats%3fsort%3dpac%26seasonType %3d2%26league%3dnba

[stephanieg]

Wait. Horford is gonna play in the ASG but Josh Smith isn't?! That blows my mind. Smith is on the same team and better, plus his game is much better for the ASG (crazy dunks and blocks).

Then David Lee plays for the New York Knicks and doesn't get in? So much for location. That's supposed to be one of the perks of playing for a big market team.

[tontoz]

You mean whe he stopped being a bench player and become a starter? :roll:

Why don't we do this the other way around, please show me per36, knicks players that have improved greatly from previous seasons compared to the two seasons under D'antoni.


I'll be waiting for your fail.

You mean like Al Harrington? He averaged 20.7 ppg in his first season under D'Antoni in 35 minutes, 21.3 per 36 which was a career best. In his previous season he averaged 18.1 per 36 with GS.

He never averaged 20 ppg in his previous 10 years in the league. the closest he got was 18.6 ppg with the Hawks in 36.6 minutes, which was his only season averaging over 17.5 ppg.


Chris Duhon 11/7.2 in his first year under D'Antoni, both career highs in terms total and per minute production. He also set a career high in TS% of 56.9%. His previous best was 53.8%.

In his last season with the Bulls he averaged 9.2/6.4 per 36 and his TS% was 50.8%.

Nate Robinsons per 36 scoring went from 17.4 in 07/08 to 20.7 in 08/09.


And these guys didn't benefit from a position change like Lee did.

Next

[Da KO King]

Given that neither the fans or the media pick the reserves I am having a hard time seeing your "proof".
The fans part was a reference to the starters. Didn't make that clear so that's my fault.

Also unless there was a change I don't recall hearing about media members and coaches both vote for reserves.

Regardless, Horford's play has not been so great that he should be there over a 19 point 11 rebounds player. This thing is about individual production and not team success so the team record point is moot to me. To me Dave Lee and Josh Smith should be in over Horford.

[G.O.A.T]

The fans part was a reference to the starters. Didn't make that clear so that's my fault.

Also unless there was a change I don't recall hearing about media members and coaches both vote for reserves.

Regardless, Horford's play has not been so great that he should be there over a 19 point 11 rebounds player. This thing is about individual production and not team success so the team record point is moot to me. To me Dave Lee and Josh Smith should be in over Horford.

I love that someone tells you you're wrong and you still try to act as though you have a point. Just say, oops, I was wrong.

[tontoz]

The fans part was a reference to the starters. Didn't make that clear so that's my fault.

Also unless there was a change I don't recall hearing about media members and coaches both vote for reserves.

Regardless, Horford's play has not been so great that he should be there over a 19 point 11 rebounds player. This thing is about individual production and not team success so the team record point is moot to me. To me Dave Lee and Josh Smith should be in over Horford.


The coaches pick the reserves. It isn't like baseball.

David Lee's numbers didn't look so good against Horford. horford outscored him by 9 in their three meetings, outrebounded him by over 3 and shot 13% better.

Last year Jefferson averaged 23/11 and didnt get in. Joe Johnson's best statistical season with the Hawks was his second season but he didn't get picked that year because the Hawks sucked. He has been picked in 4 straight years since then with lesser stats.

Team record has always mattered in All-Star reserve picks. It doesn't matter if it is a moot point to you because you aren't picking the team.

[stephanieg]

How did Horford get picked over Josh Smith?

[tontoz]

How did Horford get picked over Josh Smith?


They play different positions. Personally I think Smith is more important to the Hawks but whatever.

[BarberSchool]

Looking at the big men i nthis years all-star game is depressing.

*Watches tape of 1993 all-star game*

[godofgods]

Dude definitely got robbed but what is the surprise? He is white. You'd be crazy to think NBA wants white players to do well.

[tontoz]

Dude definitely got robbed but what is the surprise? He is white. You'd be crazy to think NBA wants white players to do well.

Yeah just think how long it has been since a white guy won the MVP. Oh wait...

[Blue&Orange]

You mean like Al Harrington? He averaged 20.7 ppg in his first season under D'Antoni in 35 minutes, 21.3 per 36 which was a career best. In his previous season he averaged 18.1 per 36 with GS.

Funny thing is that this year his per36 ppg it's even better, and as everyone noticed, there isn't no run n' gun, Knick's pace is average, so fail n

[Poodle]

horford is so overrated its retarded. watched him their last game against orlando and he was terrible. how he made it over lee is laughable since i can't remember the last time lee is invisible as much as horford is regularly, and how people are trying to argue this here is an even bigger joke. horfords had 4 pts in 2 out of his last 3 games, and only 4 boards against orlando :lol

it reminds me of spurs fans that try and act like every player on their roster are top 5 iin the nba. homers just don't know any better because they have very little perspective other than stats and BS excuses to prop their teams fan favorite.

the other thing about horford is most of his shots are gimme's. the only reason he has a high% is he's like a last scoring option on that team, only shooting if he's wide open or layups and put backs. his offense is NOWHERE near how these homers in this thread are portraying it, especially in comparison to lee.

honestly if you have nba package just check out a hawks game and see for yourself. its just such a joke this argument has gone on and to the places it did when its so black and white obvious if you just watch both of them play.

[Diesel J]

Lee plays in a run and gun system which helps him with scoring. He also can't guard anyone.




This was on display tonight again vs the Cavs in the first half.:lol

[mattevans11]

i didnt know this was a thread about the all star game..... i thought it was finally revealing the person that robbed Lee of the ability to make a difference on the defensive end......

[lpublic_enemyl]

This was on display tonight again vs the Cavs in the first half.:lol
yeah wow 44 points in the first quarter and 74 at the half:lol, don't get mad but i kinda wanted to see shaq this year in the asg

[Diesel J]

David Lee sitting on the bench in the second half and the Knicks coming back to make it a game didn't happen by chance:lol

[no pun intended]

Yes, he got robbed.

[bagelred]

Robert David got Lee-ed