Kobe Bryant wants old-school D back..

[30pts5rebs5asts]

haven't seen a thread on this yet..

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=4871616

Do you guys think it will ever happen again? Maybe if we ever lose the idiot-commish Stern?

If so.. which player and team would benefit the most? Which player and team would it hamper the most?

and a quick off-topic question: does anyone know any good sites to stream movies off? :cheers:

[Abraham Lincoln]

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," Bryant said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."


A wise man indeed.

[KingLeBronJames]

Ever since the Zone was assembled. I hated it. I thought it was a bad idea.

[Pursuer]

I think they should just allow everything, then the options for strategies would be wide and it would be more fun to watch.

[Fatal9]

"The rules are completely different now,'' said Bryant, comparing his era to Jordan's. "I've always been able to shoot the ball, but the rules have changed since he played in terms of playing a zone defense. You have to be a jump shooter now because there's no way you can get to the basket -- particularly myself because they just stack guys up. I wish we had the rules they had back in the day where you could isolate guys and you could go to the basket anytime. But now you have to be able to shoot.''

Kobe with old rules...scary thought :eek:

[FinishHim!]

^^ scary thought? That means he wouldn't get refs to call fouls by glaring at them anymore and that defenders would body him up, big time.

[Fatal9]

^^ scary thought? That means he wouldn't get refs to call fouls by glaring at them anymore and that defenders would body him up, big time.
You realize a 35 year old Jordan has averaged more FTs than Kobe has in ANY playoff run of his career? Kobe averages like 7 FTs a game...less than Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin and countless others used to shoot in early 90s (only time he shot more than 9 in a season was when he was on those bad Laker teams and using an absurd amount of possessions). Foolish kids don't know sh*t, see some cherry picked clips on youtube and think it was no blood no foul rules.

[Abraham Lincoln]

"The rules are completely different now,'' said Bryant, comparing his era to Jordan's. "I've always been able to shoot the ball, but the rules have changed since he played in terms of playing a zone defense. You have to be a jump shooter now because there's no way you can get to the basket -- particularly myself because they just stack guys up. I wish we had the rules they had back in the day where you could isolate guys and you could go to the basket anytime. But now you have to be able to shoot.''

Kobe with old rules...scary thought :eek:

Get off his ****. :cheers:

[KingLeBronJames]

"The rules are completely different now,'' said Bryant, comparing his era to Jordan's. "I've always been able to shoot the ball, but the rules have changed since he played in terms of playing a zone defense. You have to be a jump shooter now because there's no way you can get to the basket -- particularly myself because they just stack guys up. I wish we had the rules they had back in the day where you could isolate guys and you could go to the basket anytime. But now you have to be able to shoot.''

Kobe with old rules...scary thought :eek:
Yes, but LeBron with no Zone rules would be a even scarier thought.

[plowking]

"The rules are completely different now,'' said Bryant, comparing his era to Jordan's. "I've always been able to shoot the ball, but the rules have changed since he played in terms of playing a zone defense. You have to be a jump shooter now because there's no way you can get to the basket -- particularly myself because they just stack guys up. I wish we had the rules they had back in the day where you could isolate guys and you could go to the basket anytime. But now you have to be able to shoot.''

Kobe with old rules...scary thought :eek:

Indeed. Would have been good for 32/5/5 each night on about 48% shooting. During his peak that is.

[falc39]

yeah right

kobe complains and whines at the slightest instances of contact all the time. his game isn't really suited for that style. if real old school defense came back it would be worse off for him.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Yes, but LeBron with no Zone rules would be a even scarier thought.
If the zone was gone, LeBron would be kicking more Gatorade bottles.

[madmax]

Lebron without zones and with iso's again -goodbye to the league:rockon:

[plowking]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".

[plowking]

Kobe wouldn't be able to create as many shots as before for himself, though he'd put up more points on the shot he did get.

[Fatal9]

Realistically what I think Kobe would do better under old rules:

- be able to use screens better to create open shots
- move better off the ball (read the restrictions placed on the defender who was covering a player off the ball)
- be able to isolate much easier in the post and as a result use that aspect of his game more often
- couple more little things but these are some of the ones that come to mind off the top of my head

:oldlol: @ people acting like Kobe didn't put 30/7/6 in the greatest defensive era in league history (2001-2005...lowest scoring games ever, games came to a grind that they had to do something to make it a bit easier). Gotta love how people act like good players stopped playing right after 1998.

I guess some of the best defenders of this era (who did in fact play in the league when Jordan was around) don't know what they are talking about:


KICKS: If you guys could change one rule in the League, what would it be?
Kevin Garnett: No zone.
Tim Duncan : Yeah, the zone.
Kevin Garnett: If there was one rule I could change today, it would be the zone.
KICKS: Because it didn’t do what they thought it would do?
Kevin Garnett: I think it puts players that are really good at a disadvantage, so to speak. Everybody here gets double-teams, if not triple-teams, so we can all speak on this. But it sorta—I remember Phoenix sat somebody literally right there [in the lane].
Tracy McGrady: It makes it hard for a guy like me—
Kevin Garnett: —who penetrates.
Tim Duncan: It makes it hard for all of us.
Tracy McGrady: It’s tough on all of us, it really is. When you’re tryin’ to make a move, and you got another guy sittin’ right there on the same side just waitin’…
Kevin Garnett: Waitin’ on you!
Tracy McGrady: Just waitin’.
Kevin Garnett: He ain’t even playin’ his man!
Tracy McGrady: Nah, not at all.

LOL @ people thinking handchecking is stopping Lebron fcking James from getting to the rim. Comical to see idiots actually believe this. Kobe btw played under handchecking AND the zone rules back when he wasn't even in his prime and put up 30/7/6...but go back to '98? He's toast :oldlol:. Hell one of Kobe's highest per minute FTA seasons was in '97/'98 despite him clearly not being in his athletic or skilled prime back then as a 19 year old.

[plowking]

Realistically what I think Kobe would do better under old rules:

- be able to use screens better to create open shots
- move better off the ball (read the restrictions placed on the defender who was covering a player off the ball)
- be able to isolate much easier in the post and as a result use that aspect of his game more often
- couple more little things but these are some of the ones that come to mind off the top of my head

:oldlol: @ people acting like Kobe didn't put 30/7/6 in the greatest defensive era in league history (2001-2005...lowest scoring games ever, games came to a grind that they had to do something to something to make it a bit easier). Gotta love how people act like good players stopped playing right after 1998.

I guess some of the best defenders of this era (who did in fact play in the league when Jordan was around) don't know what they are talking about:

No it wasn't, it was because the offense sucked equally to how good the defense actually was.

[Floppy]

lol at the retards believing he'd be more productive. Maybe if they'd keep the circle and the D3 he could stay on par.

[30pts5rebs5asts]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".

HAHAHA.. that part in bold was pretty funny. But I agree with you, it's pretty sad that some people think the hand-check was a "super shield/ultimate wall". They're the ones that are stuck in a time-space warp and they refuse to believe that anyone can even play basketball after 98. Let alone, be as good or better than the stars of the 90's.

[madmax]

HAHAHA.. that part in bold was pretty funny. But I agree with you, it's pretty sad that some people think the hand-check was a "super shield/ultimate wall". They're the ones that are stuck in a time-space warp and they refuse to believe that anyone can even play basketball after 98. Let alone, be as good or better than the stars of the 90's.
exactly...actually this old school rough and tough basketball is still played in Euroleague with all the handchecking rules + zone defenses ( REAL ones, not NBA pseudo zones)...and one thing is for sure - a foul is still a foul, defender is only allowed to use his body to slow down attacking player, that's it. It's not like defenders are allowed to chop hands or fingers of their opponenets - that's complete bull...

[dr8ked]

bu bu But Kobe scored 81 points in the zone era and back when he was quicker in his rookie years he couldnt do any of that **** :oldlol:

[wang4three]

Impossible to be done. Players, refs, fans have adjusted for too long for it to be feasible.

[NBASTATMAN]

"The rules are completely different now,'' said Bryant, comparing his era to Jordan's. "I've always been able to shoot the ball, but the rules have changed since he played in terms of playing a zone defense. You have to be a jump shooter now because there's no way you can get to the basket -- particularly myself because they just stack guys up. I wish we had the rules they had back in the day where you could isolate guys and you could go to the basket anytime. But now you have to be able to shoot.''

Kobe with old rules...scary thought :eek:


Yea he would shoot alot worse.. I don't understand how he can write that it is hard to get to the basket yet Wade and Lebron get to the basket at will...:ohwell:


Kobe should be happy that the no touch defense was put in.. Before these new rules were put in he had two straight seasons of 43 percent shooting... I would say it helped Kobe's career as much as any other players in the game.. Even Allen Iverson began to shoot 45 percent a year.. Which for Iverson was very good... Dwade would not be the player he is today with a hand in his chest..

[sekachu]

You realize a 35 year old Jordan has averaged more FTs than Kobe has in ANY playoff run of his career? Kobe averages like 7 FTs a game...less than Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin and countless others used to shoot in early 90s (only time he shot more than 9 in a season was when he was on those bad Laker teams and using an absurd amount of possessions). Foolish kids don't know sh*t, see some cherry picked clips on youtube and think it was no blood no foul rules.


you do realize that MJ attacks to the rim much more than kobe right???

[plowking]

Yea he would shoot alot worse.. I don't understand how he can write that it is hard to get to the basket yet Wade and Lebron get to the basket at will...:ohwell:


Kobe should be happy that the no touch defense was put in.. Before these new rules were put in he had two straight seasons of 43 percent shooting... I would say it helped Kobe's career as much as any other players in the game.. Even Allen Iverson began to shoot 45 percent a year.. Which for Iverson was very good... Dwade would not be the player he is today with a hand in his chest..

Umm Kobe shot 4 straight seasons of 47% before the change of rules as well. He's done that once after the rule changes. Some food for thought...

[NBASTATMAN]

You realize a 35 year old Jordan has averaged more FTs than Kobe has in ANY playoff run of his career? Kobe averages like 7 FTs a game...less than Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin and countless others used to shoot in early 90s (only time he shot more than 9 in a season was when he was on those bad Laker teams and using an absurd amount of possessions). Foolish kids don't know sh*t, see some cherry picked clips on youtube and think it was no blood no foul rules.


Didn't Mj go to the rack over and over.. Pippen was hurt that year..

[NBASTATMAN]

Umm Kobe shot 4 straight seasons of 47% before the change of rules as well. He's done that once after the rule changes. Some food for thought...


Maybe you should look at the amount of 3's he took in those seasons.. More food for thought.. Alot less threes for Kobe meant better shooting percentages...

[plowking]

Maybe you should look at the amount of 3's he took in those seasons.. More food for thought.. Alot less threes for Kobe meant better shooting percentages...

Stayed in proportion with his total shot attempts. In his second season he shot 12 shots a game, 3 of them being 3's, so at 24 shots a game like his 02-03 season, it would have equalled 6 threes attempted per game, where as in 02-03 he only attempted 4 per game.
After that season, they generally stayed in proportion with the total shots taken.

[NBASTATMAN]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".


Coach Doc rivers and Coach Larry Brown disagree.. I think I will go with what two experts say..


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

[plowking]

Coach Doc rivers and Coach Larry Brown disagree.. I think I will go with what two experts say..


http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

Way to go along with the most cliche thing ever. Detroit Pistons drafted Darko at number 2. I wouldn't have, I would have got Carmelo. Should I be running the Pistons seeing as I obviously knew what to do?

[NBASTATMAN]

Stayed in proportion with his total shot attempts. In his second season he shot 12 shots a game, 3 of them being 3's, so at 24 shots a game like his 02-03 season, it would have equalled 6 threes attempted per game, where as in 02-03 he only attempted 4 per game.
After that season, they generally stayed in proportion with the total shots taken.


Do you even believe what you post? :lol


Kobe had four years where he played with Shaq and shot over 46 percent and a bit under 47 percent.. I expect these are the years you are speaking about...


In 1999 Kobe took 2 threes out of 15.6 shots
In 2000 Kobe took 2.2 threes out of 17.9,
In 2001 Kobe took 2.9 threes of 22.2 shots,
In 2002 Kobe took 1.6 threes of his 20 shots.

After the no touch rules


In 05 5.9 of 20.1 of his shots were three pointers.
In 06 6.5 of his 27.2 shots were threes,
In 07 5.2 of his 22.8 shots were threes
In 08 5.1 of his 20.6 shots were threes
In 09 4.1 of his 20.9 shots were threes

[sensational]

if they implemented the old rules, all these stars today would not be stars. They would not get those typical star treatment calls that we get today when lebron or kobe or wade simply look at the ref and a foul is called. Kobe needs to stfu and realize that he has a good thing going. Jordan played in an era where he had teams like the heat and knicks kicking his ass on every possesion. Guys like barkley, drexler, oakley, johnson would slap around their players in the paint. They had dominant big centers that controlled teh flow of the game. Now we have bynum, bargnani. jeez. just stfu kobe and realize you ahve a good thing going.

[samballs]

The best players will always be the best players. Rules don't matter they will adapt to any rules the league puts out. Kobe, Lebron and Wade would still bet the best players.

[NBASTATMAN]

The best players will always be the best players. Rules don't matter they will adapt to any rules the league puts out. Kobe, Lebron and Wade would still bet the best players.


This is true..

Anyone who believes Kobe should read "DEATH OF DEFENSE"

[Indian guy]

Scoring exploded the moment the NBA implemented the new rules in 04-05. The league average in 03-04 was 93.4 ppg. 97.2 ppg in 04-05. A jump of 4 ppg in 1 season. Mind boggling. And that number kept rising each season. 99 ppg in 06-07. 100 ppg in 07-08 and the league's maintained that average till date(2 1/2 seasons). The last time the league scored that much was 94-95. 16 seasons!

Anyone who thinks any current player will actually get better statistically under the 'Old Rules' is out of his mind. Their effectiveness relative to the league will remain the same, but their numbers will go down.

[vert48]

if they implemented the old rules, all these stars today would not be stars. They would not get those typical star treatment calls that we get today when lebron or kobe or wade simply look at the ref and a foul is called. Kobe needs to stfu and realize that he has a good thing going. Jordan played in an era where he had teams like the heat and knicks kicking his ass on every possesion. Guys like barkley, drexler, oakley, johnson would slap around their players in the paint. They had dominant big centers that controlled teh flow of the game. Now we have bynum, bargnani. jeez. just stfu kobe and realize you ahve a good thing going.This may be true for soft players that could not make the transition, but for guys that play hard and tough now, they would be just fine.

[NBASTATMAN]

This may be true for soft players that could not make the transition, but for guys that play hard and tough now, they would be just fine.


No doubt Kobe, Lebron and Wade would still be the best players..

[RaceBannana]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".
:applause:
that was amazing.... i loled so hard.... you are my idol #54564568798796.

I completely agree with your point, hand check is overrated, Kobe would wreak havoc on the one on one defenses.

Also people forget about Bryant amazing post game, Kobe would have better post up opportunities against those Defenses. Nowadays every time he ventures into the post he gets swarmed by multiple defenders.

[Go Getter]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".


Still the hand check on the perimeter and the arm bar in the post is a BIG helper.

You know they get away with a few little pushes and what not.....

[Go Getter]

Scoring exploded the moment the NBA implemented the new rules in 04-05. The league average in 03-04 was 93.4 ppg. 97.2 ppg in 04-05. A jump of 4 ppg in 1 season. Mind boggling. And that number kept rising each season. 99 ppg in 06-07. 100 ppg in 07-08 and the league's maintained that average till date(2 1/2 seasons). The last time the league scored that much was 94-95. 16 seasons!

Anyone who thinks any current player will actually get better statistically under the 'Old Rules' is out of his mind. Their effectiveness relative to the league will remain the same, but their numbers will go down.

:rockon:


Now I don't have to say it.

Kobe's pretty whiny as it is I remember seeing him jawing at the official an flailing his arms begging for calls while the other team jets to the offensive end.

If they go back to Old School rules that means hard fouls, hand checks, arm bars in the post, and no zones.

A lot of soft jump-shooters would become less effective and instead of coveting shooting specialists scouts would look for athletes/defenders more often.

[OneMoreSucka]

Can you guys even imagine Brandon Jennings playing with the old rules? I mean, game over. Throw in the towel before the game even starts.

[1~Gibson~1]

Melo would dominate under these circumstances.

[NBASTATMAN]

Can you guys even imagine Brandon Jennings playing with the old rules? I mean, game over. Throw in the towel before the game even starts.


What would he shoot? 25 percent

[plowking]

Do you even believe what you post? :lol


Kobe had four years where he played with Shaq and shot over 46 percent and a bit under 47 percent.. I expect these are the years you are speaking about...


In 1999 Kobe took 2 threes out of 15.6 shots
In 2000 Kobe took 2.2 threes out of 17.9,
In 2001 Kobe took 2.9 threes of 22.2 shots,
In 2002 Kobe took 1.6 threes of his 20 shots.

After the no touch rules


In 05 5.9 of 20.1 of his shots were three pointers.
In 06 6.5 of his 27.2 shots were threes,
In 07 5.2 of his 22.8 shots were threes
In 08 5.1 of his 20.6 shots were threes
In 09 4.1 of his 20.9 shots were threes

Do you know why Kobe started take more perimeter shots? It's harder to score inside under the new rules. Zones which are allowed now force outside shots, hence why his outside shots did increase slightly for some seasons in proportion to his total shots. For some they did as I showed earlier in his career.

[plowking]

What would he shoot? 25 percent

104 percent.

[GollyImSoGully]

lmao @ anyone thinking Kobe wouldn't be better.

[Anton Chigurh]

wouldnt old school d force the player to be a more jump shooter. i dont think that would help lebron alot

[phoenix18]

Just because there is no zone doesnt mean that players couldnt help like they do now.

[Cangri]

Kobe would be basically the same.

[Bodhi]

Scoring exploded the moment the NBA implemented the new rules in 04-05. The league average in 03-04 was 93.4 ppg. 97.2 ppg in 04-05. A jump of 4 ppg in 1 season. Mind boggling. And that number kept rising each season. 99 ppg in 06-07. 100 ppg in 07-08 and the league's maintained that average till date(2 1/2 seasons). The last time the league scored that much was 94-95. 16 seasons!

Anyone who thinks any current player will actually get better statistically under the 'Old Rules' is out of his mind. Their effectiveness relative to the league will remain the same, but their numbers will go down.


The problem here is that you're an idiot who doesn't understand what are the Old Rules and what are the New Rules. The Old Rules were what Jordan, Bird, and Magic played with.

From 2001 to 04, they legalized the zone in addition to all the old rules, so defenses were strongest then than at any era in history.

Now to fix this they made it harder to play defense in other ways, but kept the zone. These are the new rules. Kobe is saying that he could play better with more physical defense but no zone.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I like Kobe more after hearing this, but there's no way his scoring would rise. I'm not sure how he much he'd be impacted at this point because he's become more of a mid-range jumper shooter and post up 2 guard.

Personally I think Kobe would have come close to if not averaged 35 ppg in 2006 anyway. He wasn't attempting a ridiculous amount of free throws considering how much he shot. Maybe he averages slightly less, like 33-34, but who knows? All I know is a lot of Kobe's scoring feats relied more on jumpshots and post skill than guys like Wade and James.

The rule changes really did save Allen Iverson's career. Look at this.

1999-2000 28.4 ppg, 4.7 apg, 3.3 TO, 42.1 FG% 24.8 FGA, 8.9 FTA
2000-2001 31.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 TO, 42 FG%, 25.5 FGA, 10.1 FTA
2001-2002 31.4 ppg, 5.5 apg, 4 TO, 39.8 FG%, 27.8 FGA, 9.8 FTA
2002-2003 27.6 ppg, 5.5 apg, 3.5 TO, 41.4 FG%, 23.7 FGA, 9 FTA
2003-2004 26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg, 4.4 TO, 38.7 FG%, 23.4 FGA, 9.5 FTA

2004-2005 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg, 4.6 TO, 42.4 FG%, 24.2 FGA, 10.5 FTA
2005-2006 33 ppg, 7.4 apg, 3.4 TO, 44.7 FG%, 25.3 FGA, 11.5 FTA

Just look at Iverson's best season in 2001 and then when he was in his 30's in 2006. He attempted 0.2 less FGA, yet his scoring improved by 2 ppg, his FG% went from 42% to nearly 45%, he attempted 1.4 more FTA and his assistss rose by nearly 3 per game, despite his turnovers staying virtually the same. Now look at the fact that Iverson had been declining a bit prior yo the rule changes.

I think while it likley boosted Kobe's scoring a bit, the difference is not great like it was with guys like Iverson. I'm also convinced that a player like Dwyane Wade was helped by the rules more than Kobe.

Look at Dwyane Wade's 2nd, 3rd and 4th seasons.

2004-2005 17.1 FGA, 9.9 FTA
2005-2006 18.8 FGA, 10.7 FTA
2006-2007 18.9 FGA, 10.5 FTA

Now look at a young Michael Jordan who was easily more athletic, taking a lot more shots and averaging 35-37 ppg. Wade was having an easier time getting to the line than Jordan at his quickest was, and that was when Jordan was scoring the most he ever has.

1986-1987 27.8 FGA, 11.9 FTA
1987-1988 24.4 FGA, 10.5 FTA

Prime Michael Jordan

1989-1990 24 FGA, 8.5 FTA
1990-1991 22.4 FGA, 8.2 FTA
1991-1992 22.7 FGA, 7.4 FTA
1992-1993 25.7 FGA, 7.3 FTA

Actually that's the one thing that makes me question some of Kobe's scoring feats. Honestly, can anyone try telling me with a straight face that Kobe in recent years was attacking the basket more than 1990-1993 MJ? If not, then why did he get to the line so much easier? That's where the rule changes come in.

[Showtime]

Nobody uses zone as their main defense. Rarely do teams even use it in a game. People confuse zone defense with the abolition of the illegal defense.

[Showtime]

From 2001 to 04, they legalized the zone in addition to all the old rules, so defenses were strongest then than at any era in history.

No, it wasn't the strongest in history.


Kobe is saying that he could play better with more physical defense but no zone.
Every time Kobe faces a physical defense where he doesn't get the benefit of calls, he struggles. Why on earth would anybody think he would flourish in that environment when we have already seen the opposite?

[chitownsfinest]

Zone can be a really effective defense but it's never used 48 minutes straight, let alone for an entire quarter like posters make it to be. I remember Dirk even saying this when he was being interviewed during a Mavs-Cavs game.

[Bodhi]

No, it wasn't the strongest in history.


Every time Kobe faces a physical defense where he doesn't get the benefit of calls, he struggles. Why on earth would anybody think he would flourish in that environment when we have already seen the opposite?

The 2003-04 season has a ppg of 93.4 and an average FG% of .439. It was easier to play defense then at any era in history. Just look at how the stats change when they allow illegal defenses in 2001. Scoring and FG% drop a lot compared to the year before. It makes sense that Kobe would be able to do well with no illegal defense.

[hitmanyr2k]

The same Kobe that screams "HEY" at the top of his lungs and flails like he's getting murdered everytime he drives to the rim and then glares at the officials when he doesn't get a whistle wants the old rules back? Really? :oldlol:

[triangleoffense]

uh why are the players all bitching about zone defenses? If anything it helps players because one person is always going to be open on the perimeter if the opposing team plays zone. This is how pierce or allen get that wide open at the end of games, because either one of them or rondo drives to the paint when the other team is playing zone and then kicks out to a wide-open hof shooter.

[Abraham Lincoln]

People confuse zone defense with the abolition of the illegal defense.

Indeed.

And not even abolish, all they did was re-define it, with the new defensive 3. Let's see how enthusiastic he is about playing in the post with two elbows and two knees in his back. At least that was banned in the NBA before Kobe was even in high school. The game was inarguably more physical in nature back then, and it was more than the basic hand check. A strong side shade with no physical pressure is not a shut down defense, especially for a multiskilled player like Bryant who is mainly a jump shooter.


I interpret it as him welcoming the challenge of the physical rules. After all it is better basketball, just as he said. I agree he'd be an even better basketball player than he is now playing under those rules night after night, whether or not his statistical ppg average would show it. He would conform.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Another personal fantasy of mine would be Kobe on those Pat Riley Knicks. Imagine a defensive back court of Starks/Bryant. It would be a beauty.

[gts]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".
very true.. i have always said the great players like kobe wade lebron jordan kareem and such would never be effected by the rules, great players are great because they adjust their games constantly, you can't stop talent short of just tackling the guy

[triangleoffense]

Indeed.

And not even abolish, all they did was re-define it, with the new defensive 3. Let's see how enthusiastic he is about playing in the post with two elbows and two knees in his back. At least that was banned in the NBA before Kobe was even in high school. The game was inarguably more physical in nature back then, and it was more than the basic hand check. A strong side shade with no physical pressure is not a shut down defense, especially for a multiskilled player like Bryant who is mainly a jump shooter.


I interpret it as him welcoming the challenge of the physical rules. After all it is better basketball, just as he said. And there is no reason he would not be fine. And I agree he'd be an even better basketball player than he is now playing under those rules night after night, whether or not his statistical ppg average would show it.
Yes, the overall gameplay was so much more brutal back then. If called the fouls back then like they do today everyone who fouled Jordan going to the rim would get hit with a flagrant 2. Jordan got absolutely destroyed whenever he got inside the paint. Teams knew that Jordan was going to drive to the rim often so of course they told their players to take shots at Jordan early and often. I guarantee all the posters who say that the league was only slightly more physical back then hasn't watched the NBA live before 2000s.

[Showtime]

The 2003-04 season has a ppg of 93.4 and an average FG% of .439.

Dude, there are more factors in those numbers than what defense was played. And you would have had to watch that era to get that not all teams even used a zone defense. Hardly anybody did. And 6+ years later, most teams still don't use it.


It was easier to play defense then at any era in history.

LOL no it wasn't.


Just look at how the stats change when they allow illegal defenses in 2001. Scoring and FG% drop a lot compared to the year before.

2001-02 season, league average FG% is .445
2000-01 season, league average FG% is .443
1999-00 season, league average FG% is .449

Where is this supposed significant change?

And again, you are using statistics which have multiple factors, and attributing them to only one factor, which you have no basis to do so.


It makes sense that Kobe would be able to do well with no illegal defense.

There is nothing that shows that, and in fact, there is evidence to the contrary, as I have already pointed out. When Kobe is faced with a more physical brand of basketball, he has plenty of examples where he struggles.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes, the overall gameplay was so much more brutal back then. If called the fouls back then like they do today everyone who fouled Jordan going to the rim would get hit with a flagrant 2. Jordan got absolutely destroyed whenever he got inside the paint. Teams knew that Jordan was going to drive to the rim often so of course they told their players to take shots at Jordan early and often. I guarantee all the posters who say that the league was only slightly more physical back then hasn't watched the NBA live before 2000s.

The league got less and less physical slowly starting in the mid 90's. Unfortunately that only applied for perimeter players. Big men such as Shaq, Yao and Dwight Howard don't get to the line for cheap touch fouls. Those guys are hammered all game long.

[GollyImSoGully]

Do you guys ever get tired of arguing about the same thing?

[triangleoffense]

The league got less and less physical slowly starting in the mid 90's. Unfortunately that only applied for perimeter players. Big men such as Shaq, Yao and Dwight Howard don't get to the line for cheap touch fouls. Those guys are hammered all game long.
True, big men still do take a lot of punishment but that part of the game has changed as well even compared to the early 00s. I remember seeing Shaq play back then and he would destroy centers all day long but in the last couple years it seems like everytime shaq touches someone on the defensive end he gets hit with a personal.


Do you guys ever get tired of arguing about the same thing?

look up the word forum

[97 bulls]

The league got less and less physical slowly starting in the mid 90's. Unfortunately that only applied for perimeter players. Big men such as Shaq, Yao and Dwight Howard don't get to the line for cheap touch fouls. Those guys are hammered all game long.
the league was more physical in the mid 90s what are you talking about.

[ShaqAttack3234]

True, big men still do take a lot of punishment but that part of the game has changed as well even compared to the early 00s. I remember seeing Shaq play back then and he would destroy centers all day long but in the last couple years it seems like everytime shaq touches someone on the defensive end he gets hit with a personal.

It's because nobody wants to see big men dominate halfcourts games and it's also because when someone so much stronger even makes minimal contact with another player it looks a lot worse and the opposite is true which is why Shaq doesn't attempt even more free throws.

[ShaqAttack3234]

the league was more physical in the mid 90s what are you talking about.

:oldlol: It was not more physical than the late 80's/early 90's. More physical than today? Definitely, but that was the start of the league becoming less physical. That really sped up in the early 2000's and by the mid 2000's we had the no touch rules we have today.

[97 bulls]

im surprised noone has mentioned that its not a true zone that the nba implemented. no defender can be in the paint for more than three seconds.

[catch24]

He'd be the same player he is today. No difference IMO.

[NBASTATMAN]

Do you know why Kobe started take more perimeter shots? It's harder to score inside under the new rules. Zones which are allowed now force outside shots, hence why his outside shots did increase slightly for some seasons in proportion to his total shots. For some they did as I showed earlier in his career.



His three pt totals went up as soon as Shaq left the team... Not any other reason.. WHY are Lebron and Wade able to get to the whole untouched at times?

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: It was not more physical than the late 80's/early 90's. More physical than today? Definitely, but that was the start of the league becoming less physical. That really sped up in the early 2000's and by the mid 2000's we had the no touch rules we have today.
the league adopted a physical mentality after teams saw how the pistons were able to be successful using thugery. it was picked up by the knicks and then soon the heat and utah jazz who had a huge rep. for playing dirty. the league was much more freeflowing in the 80s.

[NBASTATMAN]

I like Kobe more after hearing this, but there's no way his scoring would rise. I'm not sure how he much he'd be impacted at this point because he's become more of a mid-range jumper shooter and post up 2 guard.

Personally I think Kobe would have come close to if not averaged 35 ppg in 2006 anyway. He wasn't attempting a ridiculous amount of free throws considering how much he shot. Maybe he averages slightly less, like 33-34, but who knows? All I know is a lot of Kobe's scoring feats relied more on jumpshots and post skill than guys like Wade and James.

The rule changes really did save Allen Iverson's career. Look at this.

1999-2000 28.4 ppg, 4.7 apg, 3.3 TO, 42.1 FG% 24.8 FGA, 8.9 FTA
2000-2001 31.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 3.3 TO, 42 FG%, 25.5 FGA, 10.1 FTA
2001-2002 31.4 ppg, 5.5 apg, 4 TO, 39.8 FG%, 27.8 FGA, 9.8 FTA
2002-2003 27.6 ppg, 5.5 apg, 3.5 TO, 41.4 FG%, 23.7 FGA, 9 FTA
2003-2004 26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg, 4.4 TO, 38.7 FG%, 23.4 FGA, 9.5 FTA

2004-2005 30.7 ppg, 7.9 apg, 4.6 TO, 42.4 FG%, 24.2 FGA, 10.5 FTA
2005-2006 33 ppg, 7.4 apg, 3.4 TO, 44.7 FG%, 25.3 FGA, 11.5 FTA

Just look at Iverson's best season in 2001 and then when he was in his 30's in 2006. He attempted 0.2 less FGA, yet his scoring improved by 2 ppg, his FG% went from 42% to nearly 45%, he attempted 1.4 more FTA and his assistss rose by nearly 3 per game, despite his turnovers staying virtually the same. Now look at the fact that Iverson had been declining a bit prior yo the rule changes.

I think while it likley boosted Kobe's scoring a bit, the difference is not great like it was with guys like Iverson. I'm also convinced that a player like Dwyane Wade was helped by the rules more than Kobe.

Look at Dwyane Wade's 2nd, 3rd and 4th seasons.

2004-2005 17.1 FGA, 9.9 FTA
2005-2006 18.8 FGA, 10.7 FTA
2006-2007 18.9 FGA, 10.5 FTA

Now look at a young Michael Jordan who was easily more athletic, taking a lot more shots and averaging 35-37 ppg. Wade was having an easier time getting to the line than Jordan at his quickest was, and that was when Jordan was scoring the most he ever has.

1986-1987 27.8 FGA, 11.9 FTA
1987-1988 24.4 FGA, 10.5 FTA

Prime Michael Jordan

1989-1990 24 FGA, 8.5 FTA
1990-1991 22.4 FGA, 8.2 FTA
1991-1992 22.7 FGA, 7.4 FTA
1992-1993 25.7 FGA, 7.3 FTA

Actually that's the one thing that makes me question some of Kobe's scoring feats. Honestly, can anyone try telling me with a straight face that Kobe in recent years was attacking the basket more than 1990-1993 MJ? If not, then why did he get to the line so much easier? That's where the rule changes come in.



:applause:

[NBASTATMAN]

He'd be the same player he is today. No difference IMO.


Stats would be different but yes Kobe would still be top 3 player.. But probably alot more technicals...:oldlol:

[BarberSchool]

Kobe is NOT built for Cuban Links.

[bdreason]

The more rules they add, the worse the game gets, period.

All the new rules Stern has created are an attempt to artificially increase game pace and scoring, specifically from the wing positions.

Sterns goal is to create as many Jordan clones as possible. Having 3 white MVP's over the past decade was just an added bonus.

[catch24]

Stats would be different but yes Kobe would still be top 3 player.. But probably alot more technicals...:oldlol:

I think his scoring/stats would stay the same if not close to. Had he played in the 90's, Hakeem, Shaq, Jordan would all still be better (healthy Penny/Grant Hill would likely be compared to Kobe).

[NBASTATMAN]

The problem here is that you're an idiot who doesn't understand what are the Old Rules and what are the New Rules. The Old Rules were what Jordan, Bird, and Magic played with.

From 2001 to 04, they legalized the zone in addition to all the old rules, so defenses were strongest then than at any era in history.

Now to fix this they made it harder to play defense in other ways, but kept the zone. These are the new rules. Kobe is saying that he could play better with more physical defense but no zone.


First it isn't a real zone.. Sure they can zone the side a player is on.. But I see the Lakers do that more than any other team in the league..

If Kobe is correct than why do Tex Winters, joe dumars, larry brown and doc rivers all think today's perimeter defensive rules are much better for OFFENSIVE PLAYERS...


An excerpt from DEATH OF DEFENSE

Tex Winter, now 84 and the veteran of more than a half century of coaching, has serious misgivings about what the league has done.

Winter acknowledges the outgrowth of the new rules interpretation is the rise of the super dominant offensive player, led by Wade

[97 bulls]

The more rules they add, the worse the game gets, period.

All the new rules Stern has created are an attempt to artificially increase game pace and scoring, specifically from the wing positions.

Sterns goal is to create as many Jordan clones as possible. Having 3 white MVP's over the past decade was just an added bonus.
exactly :cheers:

[NBASTATMAN]

I think his scoring/stats would stay the same if not close to. Had he played in the 90's, Hakeem, Shaq, Jordan would all still be better (healthy Penny/Grant Hill would likely be compared to Kobe).


I agree.. Problem with today's defense is that the perimeter guys get one set of rules and the low post guys get a set of different rules.. That is why the top three players are perimeter guys... Something the NBA has done to get ratings up.. But back to the basket skills have suffered because of it..

[D-nugz]

Bring it back would be awsome,

physical D and I highly doubt Kobe would average more on better shooting.
I really don't get why he would want old school D back, he complains on every touch he drives to the basket.

They should create some sort of touch basketball league, that's where kobe would really shine.

[97 bulls]

Bring it back would be awsome,

physical D and I highly doubt Kobe would average more on better shooting.
I really don't get why he would want old school D back, he complains on every touch he drives to the basket.

They should create some sort of touch basketball league, that's where kobe would really shine.
he doesnt want it back. he says it cuz he knows theyll never change it back. in fact, i dont know why this is even a debate. the fact is that there has never been a rule change to benfit defense in the modern era of sports. defense just doesnt pay the bills.

[Melissa]

Kobe wants old school D?

The same guy who does a lot of vocal flopping?

Please, if he played in the 80's or 90's ,he would be whining like a ****

[D-Rose]

Kobe wants old school D?

The same guy who does a lot of vocal flopping?

Please, if he played in the 80's or 90's ,he would be whining like a ****
He did play in the 90's...

[Big#50]

Centers would go back to averaging over 4 blocks a game. Bodies would break. Fights and maybe shootings would take place.

[Cermet]

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," Bryant said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."


A wise man indeed.

So he wants to actually lower the defence EVEN MORE?

[NBASTATMAN]

Centers would go back to averaging over 4 blocks a game. Bodies would break. Fights and maybe shootings would take place.


Yep.. Centers would be able to park in the paint..

[GollyImSoGully]

Kobe wants old school D?

The same guy who does a lot of vocal flopping?

Please, if he played in the 80's or 90's ,he would be whining like a ****

He was drafted in 96. Moron

EPIC FAIL

:roll:

[Story Up]

LOL at all these people saying Kobe would be affected more by these rules as they would be more physical. Let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tonnes and tonnes of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check".

Glad to see someone knowing the game, I'd rep you if I could.
A+ post.

[poido123]

Do you know why Kobe started take more perimeter shots? It's harder to score inside under the new rules. Zones which are allowed now force outside shots, hence why his outside shots did increase slightly for some seasons in proportion to his total shots. For some they did as I showed earlier in his career.

Crap, Kobe has lost some of his athleticism, therefore relied more on his jumper..

you wouldn't be saying that if you actually watched basketball before the year 2000, you come accross intelligent on some of your posts, but your Kobe goggles are hindering your ability to make a sound argument...

[Abraham Lincoln]

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," Bryant said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."

A wise man indeed

So he wants to actually lower the defence EVEN MORE? No he wants the challenge of playing a superior brand of basketball. No surprise at all considering how competitive he is.

[D.J.]

Old school defense will never come back. Many fans(mainly casual fans) would go nuts with old school defense. The thing is too many players today are poor shooters. Many cannot hit a mid-range jumpshot consistently. Combine that with old school defense and the scores of games would be ridiculously low.

[poido123]

Kobe wanting old school rules OMG how full of s@@t can this guy be? Kobe does not like any contact at all, let alone arm bars and hand checking, he would simply be whinging the WHOLE game...

[DonDadda59]

Somewhere, KB42PAH just fainted :oldlol:

[Indian guy]

I actually don't want 'old school' D back. The league's PEAK defensively was '96-'04, and barring a couple of seasons that was mostly a bleak era for the NBA where BOTH the level and style of play wasn't much to right about barring a few teams at the TOP. The game has been a lot more fun to watch since the rule change IMO.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Somewhere, KB42PAH just fainted :oldlol:

hand checking is the most overrated aspect in basketball. Zone is tougher to score on than hand checking

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Somewhere, KB42PAH just fainted :oldlol:

hand checking is the most overrated aspect in basketball. Zone is tougher to score on than hand checking

[D-nugz]

hand checking is the most overrated aspect in basketball. Zone is tougher to score on than hand checking

Really, do you even play basketball, hand checking imo is much harder to score than zone.

[plowking]

Really, do you even play basketball, hand checking imo is much harder to score than zone.

It's a lot harder for me being constantly met at the ring by someone else, than having a guys hand on me following my movement.

[godofgods]

LOL is this punk kidding. If old skool is back and Stern is gone, the refs wouldn't calling things his way and he'd be lucky to average 15 PPG.

[falc39]

lol at people who think old-school d = pure isolation defense. you're allowed to double and triple team still. you gotta be kidding me for the people who think that if we went to old-school d that the paint would suddenly become empty and therefore much easier. :oldlol:

[plowking]

lol at people who think old-school d = pure isolation defense. you're allowed to double and triple team still. you gotta be kidding me for the people who think that if we went to old-school d that the paint would suddenly become empty and therefore much easier. :oldlol:

Goes both ways. Others seem to think old school defense was like a brick wall surrounding the player not allowing them to move at all.

[eliteballer]

No where in that article does it say Kobe finds scoring against a zone easier than man to man. This is a guy who knows he can destroy anyone one on one.

[D.J.]

Just want to add one more thing:


Even if by the slim chance the NBA went back to the old defensive playing tactics, the refs wouldn't exactly swallow their whistles. The only way the change would be successful is if the refs let he players play. Back in the 80's and a decent portion of the 90's, even if you got past your man, you still had big men in the paint that had no problem putting you on your ass. Guys like Rodman, Laimbeer, and Oakley made a living doing that. Oakley even discussed this regarding Kenyon Martin.

In order for the man-to-man and handchecking tactics to be successful and absorbed by the fans, the refs have to let the players play. That means none of these soft flagrant fouls, fines, and suspensions.

[Inspector Rick]

I don't think bringing back physical D would so much make Kobe better, its just that he would have an easier time making the transition to old school ball more so than most. Which of course is a give in because its Kobe effin Bryant.

[NBASTATMAN]

hand checking is the most overrated aspect in basketball. Zone is tougher to score on than hand checking


Dallas should have gone into a zone vs Miller tonight.. He scored 52 pts.. Those new rules make life tough on perimeter players.. :roll:

[Swaggin916]

It's funny that this is coming from Mr. Handcheck himself lol... OF course he would want the rules changed.

[Showtime]

Zone is tougher to score on than hand checking
Then why don't teams use it as their main defense? Oh wait, because it's actually not that hard to break down. Not only that, it takes a smart team to effectively implement the defense, and many coaches and teams don't even bother practicing it that much.

Two main ways to break a zone:

- shooting
- ball movement/player movement

It's pretty easy to break down a zone if you can get your big at the FT line area and have guys cutting to the basket and the baseline. Smart teams and players can carve up the zone. Also, outside shooting nullifies the zone, so good jumpshooters should have a field day.

[NBASTATMAN]

Then why don't teams use it as their main defense? Oh wait, because it's actually not that hard to break down. Not only that, it takes a smart team to effectively implement the defense, and many coaches and teams don't even bother practicing it that much.

Two main ways to break a zone:

- shooting
- ball movement/player movement

It's pretty easy to break down a zone if you can get your big at the FT line area and have guys cutting to the basket and the baseline. Smart teams and players can carve up the zone. Also, outside shooting nullifies the zone, so good jumpshooters should have a field day.


Dallas should have gone into a zone vs the great Andre Miller..:D

[plowking]

Dallas should have gone into a zone vs Miller tonight.. He scored 52 pts.. Those new rules make life tough on perimeter players.. :roll:

Tony Delk agrees.

[branslowski]

Kobe would still be Kobe in any era.

And I guess everyone here missed the season in 02' where handchecking was allowed aswell as Zone, where Bryant managed to dominate while not even being at his scoring ability peak.

I mean, as if Dominique Wilkins is a far greater scorer than Kobe, or far more physical than Kobe (no disrespect to Nique). Yet, Nique can easily put up high ppg averages through parts of the 80's...

:ohwell: It gets to the point where we dont even fully appreciate how great a BASKETBALL PLAYER Kobe Bryant is. He's disrespected on this board day and night I swear.

[SAKOTXA]

Kobe would be a much a much better defender with the old rules...and not only Kobe, but a lot of other players... What I can't understand is why people don't bring up that MJ had these advantages as a defender when they say MJ was a better defender than Kobe, but they never forget to mention that MJ's era was more physical and the era we are in now doesn't allow people to play REAL defense...

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe would be a much a much better defender with the old rules...and not only Kobe, but a lot of other players... What I can't understand is why people don't bring up that MJ had these advantages as a defender when they say MJ was a better defender than Kobe, but they never forget to mention that MJ's era was more physical and the era we are in now doesn't allow people to play REAL defense...


I think Kobe would be a better defender if those rules came into effect.. But he already gets away with more than any other defender so I am not sure if it would make that much better.. But he would be a better defender.. But so would everyone else.. The league is not talented enuff to go back to those rules..

[SAKOTXA]

I think Kobe would be a better defender if those rules came into effect.. But he already gets away with more than any other defender so I am not sure if it would make that much better.. But he would be a better defender.. But so would everyone else.. The league is not talented enuff to go back to those rules..

I agree with that, but IMO Lebron is right up there...

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Then why don't teams use it as their main defense? Oh wait, because it's actually not that hard to break down. Not only that, it takes a smart team to effectively implement the defense, and many coaches and teams don't even bother practicing it that much.

Two main ways to break a zone:

- shooting
- ball movement/player movement

It's pretty easy to break down a zone if you can get your big at the FT line area and have guys cutting to the basket and the baseline. Smart teams and players can carve up the zone. Also, outside shooting nullifies the zone, so good jumpshooters should have a field day.

Us as americans were raised on man to man defense. That's the only reason we arent proficient running zone defense and jump shooting as a whole. In Europe they are raised on Zone defense, and fundamentals. That's why we are starting to see problems in international play. We need guys who could shoot on the US team like Kobe, and Melo, Williams or we would have lost again.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Kobe wouldn't be able to create as many shots as before for himself, though he'd put up more points on the shot he did get.

:wtf:

Kobe would get his in any era. As a fellow perimeter player, Iwould much prefer hand checking toward current rules because as long as your moving your hands, youre not moving your feet.

Kobe in Jordans era = 38 ppg.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kobe would be a much a much better defender with the old rules...and not only Kobe, but a lot of other players... What I can't understand is why people don't bring up that MJ had these advantages as a defender when they say MJ was a better defender than Kobe, but they never forget to mention that MJ's era was more physical and the era we are in now doesn't allow people to play REAL defense...

Good points. A lot of this is comical. MJ averaged 37 ppg in his peak scoring season. He averaged 33 ppg on a championship team in 93'. Suppose handchecked were banned then. Are we really supposed to believe Jordan was going to be putting up 42-44 ppg in 87' or 38-39 ppg in 93'? People like Dominique Wilkins then were scoring 30-31 ppg. I guess Dominique would be putting up 35-36 ppg if he played today? You can't play the pace card either. In 1993 Jordan scored 33 ppg on a pace that would be lower than the league average today. Wilkins' team was at a higher pace (97.6). Adjusting his 30 ppg to today's average pace would still have him at 28.5, which is on par with what Kobe is scoring this year. So 28.5 at this pace but no handchecking. 33-36 ppg? Wilkins was not on the first team all-NBA in 93' but he would absolutely crush today's league?

Now let's do the opposite. Send Lebron back to the halycon days before basketball died in 1998. He is averaging 30 ppg now. What would he be averaging in the 90's? 24-26 ppg because of handchecking? Jerry Stackhouse averaged 30 ppg with handchecking but Lebron or Carmelo being sent back to the handchecking era could not come close?

People are acting as if handchecking has a dramatic effect on elite scorers. If so, can you give some examples of what today's top scorers would do in the golden days or what players like Jordan and Wilkins would score today? LMAO at people acting as if Jordan would score 45 ppg on 61% today with 12 assists, 10.3 boards, 5 steals, and 4 blocks to go with it. Antoine Walker, Glen Rice, and Latrell Sprewell were top 5 scorers in the 90's. They would be lighting it up today without handchecking, right? :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe in Jordans era = 38 ppg.

:roll: Shave off about 4-5 ppg from that 38 ppg figure and you'd have his peak season in that era.

[plowking]

:wtf:

Kobe would get his in any era. As a fellow perimeter player, Iwould much prefer hand checking toward current rules because as long as your moving your hands, youre not moving your feet.

Kobe in Jordans era = 38 ppg.


Wrong.

Wing players now wouldn't be able to create as many shots for themselves due to the handcheck and thus with it players would be able to track body movement better and keep up with the player. Thus less room to get open, though in effect, they'd take better shots.
Now wings are forced to take more shots and in turn bad shots on occasions due to it being more difficult for bigs to score.

Kobe's prime in Jordan's time would be 32/5/5 on better shooting, maybe 48%.

[poido123]

Kobe would be a much a much better defender with the old rules...and not only Kobe, but a lot of other players... What I can't understand is why people don't bring up that MJ had these advantages as a defender when they say MJ was a better defender than Kobe, but they never forget to mention that MJ's era was more physical and the era we are in now doesn't allow people to play REAL defense...

I would have to agree entirely with you there...Jordan did have an advantage by handchecking knowing which way the player was going offensively...Hard to know, but funny how Kobe says this now he has Artest on his team now :lol

[Dizzle-2k7]

:roll: Shave off about 4-5 ppg from that 38 ppg figure and you'd have his peak season in that era.

Its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer then Jordan... Kobe is the black Jerry West.

[SAKOTXA]

Its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer then Jordan... Kobe is the black Jerry West.

Than*

How?

[Cermet]

No he wants the challenge of playing a superior brand of basketball. No surprise at all considering how competitive he is.

Take out that goddamn defensive 3 sec and things will get better instantly.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer then Jordan... Kobe is the black Jerry West.
:roll:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Take out that goddamn defensive 3 sec and things will get better instantly.
Indeed.

[plowking]

Its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer then Jordan... Kobe is the black Jerry West.

What you mean as in 31 year old Kobe being better than 45 year old Jordan? Yeah, you're right on that one.

[amfirst]

People think hand check is like a straight arm or something, it never bother me in street ball why would it bother anyone else in the NBA.

[Disaprine]

"I'd like for us to go back to the old rules," Bryant said. "Get rid of the 'crutch defense,' known as the zone defense, and have guys guard man-to-man and stuff like that [and allow] hand checking and all that. I think that's better basketball."


A wise man indeed.
:applause: , It'll be great seeing kobe, lebron and wade playing with these rules but it will probably never happen.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer then Jordan... Kobe is the black Jerry West.

No it's not you dumb troll. Jordan has Kobe beat EASILY in career ppg, career playoff ppg, ppg in the finals(both career and a single finals), ppg in a single season, ppg in a playoff run ect. Jordan was also more efficient. Jordan>>Kobe at everything except maybe 3 point shooting.

Kobe in the mid to late 80's might average 32 or so ppg on something like 48% actually because in that era he's not going to be firing away 3's like he did in 2006.

[branslowski]

No it's not you dumb troll. Jordan has Kobe beat EASILY in career ppg, career playoff ppg, ppg in the finals(both career and a single finals), ppg in a single season, ppg in a playoff run ect. Jordan was also more efficient. Jordan>>Kobe at everything except maybe 3 point shooting.

Kobe in the mid to late 80's might average 32 or so ppg on something like 48% actually because in that era he's not going to be firing away 3's like he did in 2006.

:oldlol: Why even respond to his obvious trolling?..

[Extempo]

:oldlol: Why even respond to his obvious trolling?..
ShaqAttack is the biggest Kobe hater. Dude hijacked my Kobe thread with some nonsense about why Shaq >>> Kobe. He's just mad that Shaq is irrelevant now and Kobe has many chances to win more championships and move up his place in history while Shaq is done.

[KubiliusF]

http://i37.tinypic.com/30szxue.jpg

[branslowski]

http://i37.tinypic.com/30szxue.jpg

:eek: Damn...Who dat?

[kentatm]

does anyone not see something wrong with Kobe crying that people have to be able to shoot the damn ball now?

[branslowski]

ShaqAttack is the biggest Kobe hater. Dude hijacked my Kobe thread with some nonsense about why Shaq >>> Kobe. He's just mad that Shaq is irrelevant now and Kobe has many chances to win more championships and move up his place in history while Shaq is done.

I wasn't calling Sha the troll...I was talking about the guy who said Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan. And to my knowledge, Shaq isn't a Kobe hater...He's just a huge Shaq fan who doesn't want Shaq's greatness diminished by RETARDED Kobe Bryant fans. Now yes, sometimes he goes overboard with it but, the point still stands.

[ShaqAttack3234]

ShaqAttack is the biggest Kobe hater. Dude hijacked my Kobe thread with some nonsense about why Shaq >>> Kobe. He's just mad that Shaq is irrelevant now and Kobe has many chances to win more championships and move up his place in history while Shaq is done.

:oldlol: I didn't hijack that thread. Desperado brought up the 2000 WCF for no apparent reason before I even mentioned Shaq in the thread. Go check the thread. I'm no Kobe hater either. I was praising Kobe for his post game early in the season and I had him as my MVP early in the year. I also raved about his 2008 season and defend him whenever someone says Paul was robbed.

And Shaq isn't irrelevant either. He looks like he could be the player that puts Cleveland over the top.


I wasn't calling Sha the troll...I was talking about the guy who said Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan. And to my knowledge, Shaq isn't a Kobe hater...He's just a huge Shaq fan who doesn't want Shaq's greatness diminished by RETARDED Kobe Bryant fans. Now yes, sometimes he goes overboard with it but, the point still stands.

Sounds about right.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Kobe dropped 81, 62 in 3quarters, 40 in a half... yea its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan.

Just like its common knowledge that Tim Duncan > Shaq.

[phoenix18]

Kobe dropped 81, 62 in 3quarters, 40 in a half... yea its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan.

Just like its common knowledge that Tim Duncan > Shaq.

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr334/duki3003/Facepalm/Ascii-facepalm.jpg

[Dizzle-2k7]

Good thing you know how to post JPGs because you dont know shlt bout hoops. :cheers:

[Disaprine]

http://i37.tinypic.com/30szxue.jpg
:roll:

[Swaggin916]

^^^ Nice :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Kobe dropped 81, 62 in 3quarters, 40 in a half... yea its common knowledge that Kobe is a better scorer than Jordan.

63 in a playoff game(most ever), 55 in a finals game, 41 ppg in a finals series(most ever) and all of that before the no-handchecking crap. The 63 points was against arguably the best team ever, the '86 Celtics. Jordan is the more consistent scorer, and he also has the ability to go off. He had 69/18/6 on 23/37 shooting.


Just like its common knowledge that Tim Duncan > Shaq.

Last time some troll said something like this, I asked them to make a thread and see what the consensus was, and the majority easily chose Shaq. :oldlol: Ask the question again if you want to look even dumber.

[Desperado]

63 in a playoff game(most ever), 55 in a finals game, 41 ppg in a finals series(most ever) and all of that before the no-handchecking crap. The 63 points was against arguably the best team ever, the '86 Celtics.



Last time some troll said something like this, I asked them to make a thread and see what the consensus was, and the majority easily chose Shaq. :oldlol: Ask the question again if you want to look even dumber.


in double over time...and he lost and got swept :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

in double over time...and he lost and got swept :oldlol:

Kobe has gone to OT in the playoffs. Has he scored 63? No. He scored 50 in one OT playoff game....which he also lost....to the Amare Stoudemire-less Phoenix Suns. :lol

This is why I can come off as a Kobe Bryant hater to some because irrational Kobe fanboys compare him to Jordan and O'Neal and diminish their accomplishments while boosting Kobe's in the process.