Top 5 All-Time at each position prime wise

[1987_Lakers]

Discounting career achievements. Who are your top 5 players of All-Time at each position in terms of peak play.

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Gary Payton
5. John Stockton

[L.Kizzle]

Discounting player achievements ... where is T-Mac

Prime, some of these are all wrong. In George Gervin's prime, he was getting four straight 30 ppg seasons.

Baylor should be higher than 5.

Bob Pettit is missing.

Oscar should be number 1, in his peak he averaged a triple double.

[1987_Lakers]

Oscar should be number 1, in his peak he averaged a triple double.

Averaging a triple double in 1962 isn't as impressive as some might think. Put Magic & LeBron in that era an they would average a triple double guarantee.

[John Smith]

Averaging a triple double in 1962 isn't as impressive as some might think. Put Magic & LeBron in that era an they would average a triple double guarantee.

Then why is Wilt #1 on your list? He was a horrible ball hog. Make some sense already! By your crazy logic Dwight Howard should be #1 because he would have dominated in Wilt's era.

And Stockton is better than Payton.

[1987_Lakers]

Then why is Wilt #1 on your list? He was a horrible ball hog. Make some sense already! By your crazy logic Dwight Howard should be #1 because he would have dominated in Wilt's era.

1967 Wilt wasn't a ball hog.

[GP_20]

And Stockton is better than Payton.
Not primes

[L.Kizzle]

Averaging a triple double in 1962 isn't as impressive as some might think. Put Magic & LeBron in that era an they would average a triple double guarantee.
Wilt scored 100 in 1962 ...

[dyna]

Discounting career achievements. Who are your top 5 players of All-Time at each position in terms of peak play.

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Gary Payton
5. John Stockton

I Prefer David Robinson to Bill Russell in his prime.

[kurple]

Averaging a triple double in 1962 isn't as impressive as some might think. Put Magic & LeBron in that era an they would average a triple double guarantee.

Your guarantee is worthless.

[plowking]

Dwyane Wade > Jerry West's prime.

Wade put up 30/5/8 in a slow league on 50% shooting while West put up 31/5/8 in an extremely fast league. I'll take Wade.

[Coach A]

Dwyane Wade > Jerry West's prime.

Wade put up 30/5/8 in a slow league on 50% shooting while West put up 31/5/8 in an extremely fast league. I'll take Wade.
Wade's team was a 1st round exit team. And West's team was a championship contending team. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

Wade's team he got the ball quite often. West's team, compared to Wade, he took far less % of the team's shot and had the ball less far less possessions. As with all other superstars from the past. Which counteracts the higher pace. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

[L.Kizzle]

Dwyane Wade > Jerry West's prime.

Wade put up 30/5/8 in a slow league on 50% shooting while West put up 31/5/8 in an extremely fast league. I'll take Wade.
LOL, West was doin' that with a teammate names Elgin Baylor.

[Gundress]

Honestly, this thread is real pointless because everyone will agree to disagree and it's more like a personal opinion thread.

[godofgods]

Payton is not even top 10 PG of all time. And no, he's not better than Stockton.

LOL @ Kobe at number 2.

[plowking]

LOL, West was doin' that with a teammate names Elgin Baylor.

Yeah... There were 16 more points to go around on his team.

You could use Wade's 27/6/7 season on 50% with Shaq on his team. Either way...

[plowking]

Wade's team was a 1st round exit team. And West's team was a championship contending team. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

Wade's team he got the ball quite often. West's team, compared to Wade, he took far less % of the team's shot and had the ball less far less possessions. As with all other superstars from the past. Which counteracts the higher pace. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

He won 46 games with his team despite having another 2 of the top 25 players ever on his team. And they only had two rounds to get to the finals...

Wade won 43 games with nobodies.

[Psileas]

^^Wrong, they had 3 rounds in 1970, and each round was a best-of-7 one.

[catzhernandez]

Sabonis > Russell

[plowking]

^^Wrong, they had 3 rounds in 1970, and each round was a best-of-7 one.

Western Divison semis and finals? Am I missing something?

[ThaRegul8r]

Sabonis > Russell

I agree. Arvydas Sabonis was a much better center than Russell Cross.

[Toizumi]

Honestly, this thread is real pointless because everyone will agree to disagree and it's more like a personal opinion thread.

Yeah, this thread is bs.

[plowking]

Karl Malone should be first on the PF list. 31, 11, 3 on a 55 win team...

[Abraham Lincoln]

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Moses Malone

PF
1. Charles Barkley
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Bob Pettit
5. Karl Malone

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. LeBron James
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Allen Iverson
5. Tracy McGrady

PG
1. Oscar Robertson
2. Magic Johnson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier
5. Gary Payton

[plowking]

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bill Russell
5. Moses Malone

PF
1. Charles Barkley
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Bob Pettit
5. Karl Malone

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. LeBron James
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Allen Iverson
5. Tracy McGrady

PG
1. Oscar Robertson
2. Magic Johnson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier
5. Gary Payton

You're the most biased poster on here, so you're opinion doesn't really matter. What a shock Philly players everywhere. I'm still stunned you didn't put Willie Green as the top spot for SG.

[Yuki Nagato]

Grant Hill? :confusedshrug:

[spree43]

If we are talking single season/prime I think CP3 is in the PG discussion ahead of the Glove, he was 2nd to Kobe for MVP and maybe deserved it based on that season alone

Hakeem in 94 and 95 was special as well, probably 3rd or 4th of the centres

[Psileas]

Western Divison semis and finals? Am I missing something?

No, I just included the NBA Finals. But what's the huge deal? That there wasn't a first round? Basically, even Magic, Bird and Julius won 4 of their championships with a pretty similar format (all teams with good records played 2 rounds before the finals) and nobody notices. It's not as if the universal introduction of the first round reduced their success, either. I can only remember a couple of major upsets for these players from 1984 to 1991, the Sixers' one in 1984 and the Celtics' in 1990.

[G.O.A.T]

The thing about Oscar's triple-double season is not the competition he faced but the pace he played at.

If the same number of shots were taken and the same number of possessions played per game as in 1962 (the peak for both in NBA history)a lot more players would have done it.

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Jason Kidd and LeBron would all have had triple -double averages at least once if they got the same percentage of rebounds and assists over the increased possessions.

I didn't do the math but it's possible M. Ray Richardson, Scottie Pippen and Fat Lever would all have do it as well.

[GOBB]

The thing about Oscar's triple-double season is not the competition he faced but the pace he played at.

If the same number of shots were taken and the same number of possessions played per game as in 1962 (the peak for both in NBA history)a lot more players would have done it.

Bird, Magic, Jordan, Jason Kidd and LeBron would all have had triple -double averages at least once if they got the same percentage of rebounds and assists over the increased possessions.

I didn't do the math but it's possible M. Ray Richardson, Scottie Pippen and Fat Lever would all have do it as well.

Yeah and Shaq would have score 100 more than once during Wilts days. :rolleyes:

[jlauber]

I have always wondered why Jerry Lucas doesn't get mentioned more often in these all-time threads, especially when the criteria is based on their prime. Other than Wilt (EIGHT TIMES), Lucas is the only player to have more than one 20-20 season (two) in his career. Not only that, but he also led the NBA in FG% one year, and had many seasons over 50%...which is really remarkable when you could argue that he was the best long-range shooter in the game at the time he played. And before anyone jumps down my throat, the term "Lucas Layup" was coined for his 25 ft, "layups." I actually witnessed him hit some 20+ shots in a row from between the circles (at least 25 ft) during a pre-game warmup at a Warrior-Knick game in the early 70's. Factor in that he even played center at times in his career, and I just have to believe that, at his BEST, he was definitely a Top-5 PF.

[G.O.A.T]

Yeah and Shaq would have score 100 more than once during Wilts days. :rolleyes:

No, not even Kobe's 81 translates to a 100 point game in the 1962.

Wilt's feat still stands as the greatest statistical volume scoring achievement in NBA history.

[jlauber]

Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement. The record book is filled with many examples of his overwhelming INDIVDUAL accomplishments. How about the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history... .727, and .683? Or the THREE highest "perfect games" in NBA history... 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or 35 straight made FGs? Or 55 rebounds in one game? Or 41 rebounds in one post-season game? Or the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history? Or 50.4 ppg (as well as 44.8)? Or 27.0 rpg? ELEVEN rebound titles. He also has more 60+ point games, 32, than every other player who has ever played the game in NBA history...COMBINED (29.)

And for those that compare Wilt's 50 ppg to MJ's 37 ppg season...Wilt averaged his total in a league that averaged 119 ppg, while MJ's was in a league that averaged 110. AND, Wilt shot .506 from the field in a league that averaged .426. Meanwhile MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480. A case could be made that Kobe's best scoring season was better than MJ's. Kobe averaged 35.4 in a league that averaged 97 ppg, and he shot .450 in a league that averaged .454. In any case, there is simply no comparison between MJ's best scoring season, and Wilt's.

And, I think most intelligent observers would rate Wilt's '66-'67 season, as not only his best, but perhaps the greatest in NBA history.

But all of these "all-time" great discussions seem to diminish Russell's impact. Believe me, I have long railed against Russell in the Wilt vs. Russell duels, until I began watching footage of Russell. One-on-one, Wilt probably would have killed Russell. But, it is a TEAM game, and NO ONE had more of an overall impact on the game than Russell. While Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq could single-handedly take a mediocre team and make them a championship contender, Russell would take a good team, and make them great. He was not as dominant INDIVIDUALLY, but he made his teammates better...much better.

[G.O.A.T]

I have always wondered why Jerry Lucas doesn't get mentioned more often in these all-time threads, especially when the criteria is based on their prime. Other than Wilt (EIGHT TIMES), Lucas is the only player to have more than one 20-20 season (two) in his career. Not only that, but he also led the NBA in FG% one year, and had many seasons over 50%...which is really remarkable when you could argue that he was the best long-range shooter in the game at the time he played. And before anyone jumps down my throat, the term "Lucas Layup" was coined for his 25 ft, "layups." I actually witnessed him hit some 20+ shots in a row from between the circles (at least 25 ft) during a pre-game warmup at a Warrior-Knick game in the early 70's. Factor in that he even played center at times in his career, and I just have to believe that, at his BEST, he was definitely a Top-5 PF.

Here's my take on the lack of love for Lucas and some of the factors that have led to it:

-He was overshadowed in Cincinnati by Oscar amongst his own team and guys like Wilt and Russell in terms of rebounding numbers.

-Even at his peak he was a low volume scorer; usually 4th amongst the starters in points and shots per 48 minutes. Guys were averaging 25-30 all over the place and he never top 22, despite sitting fewer minutes per 48 than a nine year old on a sugar high. One argument a Lucas supporter could make is that in the modern era, with a three-point line, Lucas would likely get 3-5 more points per game based on his propensity to hoist and hit long jump shots.

-His rebounding numbers came in an era where rebounding numbers were inflated by the pace of the game. This is not his fault and many people do not understand how and why the numbers are different, but the best context to put it in I believe is as such: He finished anywhere from 3rd-5th in the NBA in rebounding (always behind Wilt and Russell) for 7 of his first 8 seasons. So yes the era inflates them about 25-35% over today's pace but that's still 12-15 per game so at the very least he was an excellent rebounder.

-His teams never won anything: The strange thing about this one is how it stuck to him and not to Oscar. I guess Big O joining Alcindor cleared his named, but why doesn't Lucas at least get some of the same leeway. Yes Lucas and Oscar won just one playoff series together in Cincy (in Jerry's rookie year) but consider the following. In '64 they lost to Russell's Celtics, in '65 Wilt and the Sixers, '66 the Celtics beat them and in '67, you guessed it, the Sixers. Two of the all-time great teams, another very good World Champion and always to one of the era's two premier stars, just like West, Baylor, Oscar and the rest of the players whose careers began in the 1960's.

All of these factors, plus the fact that he generally wasn't beloved in his playing days and rarely gets mentioned with the likes of Barkley, Malone, Garnett, Pettit and Duncan (the consensus top 5 on most lists I could find)

That speaks to two things, how good Pettit was and how much the power forward position has evolved. Guys like Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo, Dave Debusschere, Dolph Schayes and Tom Hiensohn have just fallen out of the conversation, the only other two names I here consistently around the top five are McHale and Nowitzki.


Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement. The record book is filled with many examples of his overwhelming INDIVDUAL accomplishments. How about the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history... .727, and .683? Or the THREE highest "perfect games" in NBA history... 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or 35 straight made FGs? Or 55 rebounds in one game? Or 41 rebounds in one post-season game? Or the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history? Or 50.4 ppg (as well as 44.8)? Or 27.0 rpg? ELEVEN rebound titles. He also has more 60+ point games, 32, than every other player who has ever played the game in NBA history...COMBINED (29.)

I was speaking only in terms of the statistical weight and significance of the 100 point game. I would agree it's far from his greatest achievement were the other factors and intangibles are considered.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

You mentioned Bob McAdoo. Probably one of the most under-rated players ever...especially in these "prime" discussions. I had the pleasure of actually watching that guy play live, and in the early-to-mid 70's, he was probably only second to Kareem in that period. And he had unbelieveable range for a 6-11 guy (maybe not as good as Nowitzki, but his shot was harder to defend.)

He had three straight 30+ ppg seasons, and probably averaged .520 from the field over that span.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

I wasn't disputing your 100 point game comparison to Kobe's at all. I know that you did not say it was Wilt's greatest achievement. I have read your take here many times, and I agree with you probably 90% of the time.

INTELLIGENT posters (like yourself) will look past much of the stats, and take a look at video footage that exists. For those that believe Dwight Howard is the best center in the game today...and argue that today's players are better than those of the 60's and 70's...take a look at the footage of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem that is abundant on YouTube, and tell me that Howard is more skilled, or more dominant than those three guys.

Same with the MJ argument. Many of today's "ESPN Generation" honestly believe he invented the dunk. There is ample footage available of Connie Hawkins and Dr. J that will contradict that point (and 6-6 Gus Johnson was shattering rims long before anyone else.) And, watch Oscar, and tell me that MJ was a better one-on-one player. And, I still have not seen anyone do the things with a basketball that Pistol Pete did some 40 years ago. He was a true magician with the ball. His 68 point game against the Knicks is on YouTube, and it has been estimated that it would have been an 81 point game had there been a 3pt line back then. And, how come no one else has ever duplicated Kareem's "sky-hook" which is the dealiest shot in NBA history?

In any case, NO ONE elevated his teammates like Russell (the only player that could come close would have been Magic.) And that simply has to be included in these "all-time" discussions. He did not win 11 rings by accident.

[lakers_forever]

PG: Magic

SG: MJ

SF: Larry Bird

PF: Karl Malone

C: Wilt Chamberlain


2nd team:

PG: Oscar

SG: Kobe

SF: Elgin Baylor

PF: Charles Barkley

C: Shaq or Kareem.

[jlauber]

GOAT,

You brought up some very good points about Lucas. And I have long read that the rebounding numbers of the 60's were elevated by not only more shots, but poorer shooting.

Still, I was involved in a debate about the all-time greatest rebounders in another forum, and someone used the famous "available rebound" rate to declare Rodman, as the greatest ever.

Yes, using that stat, Rodman's rate, per minute, is the highest ever. But, IMHO, it came in a era of the WORST rebounding centers in NBA history. Geez, we had GUARDs like 6-3, 170 lb. Fat Lever among the leaders.

Back in the early 70's, Tom Boerwinkle actually had a higher "rebound rate" than Wilt in one season. Well, the two met in the playoffs, and Chamberlain just CRUSHED him two years in a row. In game four of the Laker sweep of the Bulls in the '72 season, Wilt outrebounded him 31-4!

And, how about Rodman's POST-SEASON rebounding? His career rebounding regular season average was 13.1, but it drops significantly down to 9.9 in the post-season...while Russell's and Wilt's INCREASED by about two per game.

Put Russell and Wilt into the 80's and 90's...and against the MANY 7-2+" clods that permeated the league, most of whom struggled to get 10 rebounds per game (and many were around 6-8 rpg), and I suspect that they would have done quite well. Incidently, for those that argue Wilt's domination was because of his height...there has NEVER been a 7-3+" center to lead the league in rebounding. And, Kareem and Motumbo, who were 7-2, led the NBA in rebounding, with THREE COMBINED titles.

My point being that Lucas, Thurmond, Russell, and Wilt would have been among the rebounding leaders in ANY era.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Grant Hill? :confusedshrug:

:no:

[jlauber]

I wonder who would blend the best at center with an all-star team that had the greatest PF, SF, SG, and PG?

[phoenix18]

:roll: @ at these horrible "I have to have this guy here because he is a champion/whatever" list.

OP why in Jesus name do you have Tim Duncan as your number one PF? Come on son. Be honest here.

Lebron>Bird. Dont give me this crap either.

[Go Getter]

Discounting career achievements. Who are your top 5 players of All-Time at each position in terms of peak play.

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Gary Payton
5. John Stockton

Dirk/Jerry West/Gary Payton/Rick Barry shouldn't even sniff this list.

And Gary Payton but no Tiny Archibald?

[Go Getter]

PG: Magic

SG: MJ

SF: Larry Bird

PF: Karl Malone

C: Wilt Chamberlain


2nd team:

PG: Oscar

SG: Kobe

SF: Elgin Baylor

PF: Charles Barkley

C: Shaq or Kareem.

I know it's hard to compare eras but I have doubts that Baylor could do anything with LBJ [and I'm not a fan].

[Disaprine]

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

Tim Duncan was better that chuck and Karl Malone in their prime? really?

[Alhazred]

Yes, using that stat, Rodman's rate, per minute, is the highest ever. But, IMHO, it came in a era of the WORST rebounding centers in NBA history.

David Robinson, Shaquille O' Neal, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning and David Robinson are poor rebounders? Correct me if I've misread your post.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Even Wilt would tell you that his 100 point game was not his greatest achievement.

:cheers:

[jlauber]

David Robinson, Shaquille O' Neal, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning and David Robinson are poor rebounders? Correct me if I've misread your post.

Those FEW were not POOR rebounders, but NONE of them were anything close to being great rebounders. Take a long look at the rosters of those 27-29 teams in the late 80's thru the 00's. They were filled with seven-footers who could barely get five rebounds a game. Guys like 7-4 Rik Smits, or 7-3 Mark Eaton struggling along with 8 rebounds per game...and these were two of the BETTER centers of that 15-20 year period.

When a 6-3, 170 lb guard is among the league leaders in rebounding (Fat Lever...at 9 rpg BTW) that tells me a lot about these "greats"...Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Motumbo...and their typical 12-13 rebound games. They were not dominating their inferior competition.

While there were more shots to be rebounded in the '71-72 season, take a look at what Chamberlain faced night in-and-night out. Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Dave DeBusschere, Kareem, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes...all in the HOF...as well as Clifford Ray, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk, Gus Johnson, Bill Bridges, Spencer Haywood, Clyde Lee, and teammate Happy Hairston...all exceptional rebounders. And he faced them 4-6 times EACH that season...not the 2-4 times that the "greats" of the 80's and 90's faced each other.

And for 6-8 Rodman to lead the league by large margins was just laughable. Still, in the playoffs, Rodman came back down to earth, and was merely a good rebounder...unlike Wilt and Russell, who were even greater during their post-season's.

[makieveli]

i think AI should be higher than wade cuz Dwade will never carry his team to the finals by himself like AI did

[AirJordan&Magic]

Centers

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Shaquille O'neal
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. David Robinson

Arguable mentions: Bill Russell, Arvydas Sabonis, Bill Walton

Power Fowards

1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Bob Pettit
5. Kevin garnett

Honorable mentions: Kevin mcHale, Jerry Lucas

Small Forwards

1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. LeBron James
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Rick Barry

Honorable mentions: Scottie Pippen, Dominique Wilkins, Bernard King

Shooting Guards

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Allen Iverson
5. Tracy McGrady

Honorable mentions: George Gervin, Cyde drexler, Dwyane wade

Point Guards

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Jason Kidd
4. John Stockton
5. Kevin Johnson or Isiah Thomas

Honorable mentions: Nate Archibald, Gary Payton, Bob Cousy

[ShaqAttack3234]

Centers
1.Shaquille O'Neal
2.Wilt Chamberlain
3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4.Hakeem Olajuwon
5.Tim Duncan

Power Forwards
1.Charles Barkley
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Karl Malone
4.Bob Pettit
5.Kevin McHale

Small Forwards
1.Larry Bird
2.Lebron James
3.Rick Barry
4.Elgin Baylor
5.Julius Erving

Shooting Guards
1.Michael Jordan
2.Jerry West
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Tracy McGrady
5.Dwyane Wade

Point Guards
1.Magic Johnson
2.Oscar Robertson
3.Isiah Thomas
4.Kevin Johnson
5.Jason Kidd

[AirJordan&Magic]

GOAT,

I wasn't disputing your 100 point game comparison to Kobe's at all. I know that you did not say it was Wilt's greatest achievement. I have read your take here many times, and I agree with you probably 90% of the time.

INTELLIGENT posters (like yourself) will look past much of the stats, and take a look at video footage that exists. For those that believe Dwight Howard is the best center in the game today...and argue that today's players are better than those of the 60's and 70's...take a look at the footage of Russell, Wilt, and Kareem that is abundant on YouTube, and tell me that Howard is more skilled, or more dominant than those three guys.

Same with the MJ argument. Many of today's "ESPN Generation" honestly believe he invented the dunk. There is ample footage available of Connie Hawkins and Dr. J that will contradict that point (and 6-6 Gus Johnson was shattering rims long before anyone else.) And, watch Oscar, and tell me that MJ was a better one-on-one player. And, I still have not seen anyone do the things with a basketball that Pistol Pete did some 40 years ago. He was a true magician with the ball. His 68 point game against the Knicks is on YouTube, and it has been estimated that it would have been an 81 point game had there been a 3pt line back then. And, how come no one else has ever duplicated Kareem's "sky-hook" which is the dealiest shot in NBA history?

In any case, NO ONE elevated his teammates like Russell (the only player that could come close would have been Magic.) And that simply has to be included in these "all-time" discussions. He did not win 11 rings by accident.

:applause: :applause: :applause: You are a real intelligent poster man. Good to see posters like you around.

[Fatal9]

Centers
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Hakeem

Power Forwards
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Pettit
5. Malone

Small Forwards
1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Barry

Shooting Guards
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. T-Mac

Point Guards
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. GP
5. Stockton

[jlauber]

AirJordan,

Thanks for the kind words. I can honestly say that there are quite a few exceptional posters here (yourself included), and I enjoy the discussions.

Incidently, I don't mean to diminish MJ's greatness. IMHO, he was the greatest post-season scorer ever (along with Jerry West and Shaq at his peak), and perhaps the greatest post-season PLAYER ever...although Russell's record speaks volumes about his post-season dominance.

I have been a Wilt fan since the mid-60's, and up until quite recently, I have argued that he was the greatest I ever saw play. And, I really believe that he was the greatest ATHLETE who ever lived. Having said that, he had some flaws, and despite his "owning" the record book...I have come to the conclusion that he actually underachieved in his career. Not all of his post-season failures were his fault...and much of them were because he was going up against the greatest dynasty in modern professional sports history...but aside from a couple of dominating post-season performances...he just never played the game the way Russell, MJ, and even Shaq did.

I do truly believe, that when he made the decision to carry his team's to titles, particularly his '67 Sixer team...that he was truly capable of being the greatest ever. I just wish he would have had Shaq's mentality, and used his incredible size, strength, and power to full advantage.

In any case, IMHO, Russell is being slighted somewhat here, probably based on what are often perceived (myself included for many years) as average offensive skills. I was wrong, though...as some other poster's have pointed out. Perhaps he was not a truly dominant scorer, like Shaq, MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and some other's...but he was certainly better than his numbers indicated.

Once again, thanks for the kind words. I have really come to enjoy these discussions. There is a solid core of intelligent posters here...whether we always agree, or not. After all, most all of this is based on opinions. Fortunately, there are quite a few here with INTELLIGENT opinions...and they are to be applauded.

[AirJordan&Magic]

AirJordan,

Thanks for the kind words. I can honestly say that there are quite a few exceptional posters here (yourself included), and I enjoy the discussions.

Incidently, I don't mean to diminish MJ's greatness. IMHO, he was the greatest post-season scorer ever (along with Jerry West and Shaq at his peak), and perhaps the greatest post-season PLAYER ever...although Russell's record speaks volumes about his post-season dominance.

I have been a Wilt fan since the mid-60's, and up until quite recently, I have argued that he was the greatest I ever saw play. And, I really believe that he was the greatest ATHLETE who ever lived. Having said that, he had some flaws, and despite his "owning" the record book...I have come to the conclusion that he actually underachieved in his career. Not all of his post-season failures were his fault...and much of them were because he was going up against the greatest dynasty in modern professional sports history...but aside from a couple of dominating post-season performances...he just never played the game the way Russell, MJ, and even Shaq did.

I do truly believe, that when he made the decision to carry his team's to titles, particularly his '67 Sixer team...that he was truly capable of being the greatest ever. I just wish he would have had Shaq's mentality, and used his incredible size, strength, and power to full advantage.

In any case, IMHO, Russell is being slighted somewhat here, probably based on what are often perceived (myself included for many years) as average offensive skills. I was wrong, though...as some other poster's have pointed out. Perhaps he was not a truly dominant scorer, like Shaq, MJ, Wilt, Kareem, and some other's...but he was certainly better than his numbers indicated.

Once again, thanks for the kind words. I have really come to enjoy these discussions. There is a solid core of intelligent posters here...whether we always agree, or not. After all, most all of this is based on opinions. Fortunately, there are quite a few here with INTELLIGENT opinions...and they are to be applauded.

:applause: Great post.

Alot of legends here get slighted because of narrow-minded people who refuse to show respect to great players and disrespect other's opinions....The web is full of guys who diminish greats to prop up their own players.

Anyway, you actually witnessed Wilt play? Thats says alot right there.....you practically seen nearly every legend.

[jlauber]

Alot of legends here get slighted because of narrow-minded people who refuse to show respect to great players and disrespect other's opinions....The web is full of guys who diminish greats to prop up their own players.

Anyway, you actually witnessed Wilt play? Thats says alot right there.....you practically seen nearly every legend.

AirJordan,

I agree with you 100%. I don't have a problem with someone expressing their opinions as to who their "favorite" all-time player(s) is/are...but to rip other great players is ridiculous.

And, while old age brings many problems, it does also lend a perspective, especially for those that were fortunate enough to see many of these all-time greats actually play.

I will agree that, as a whole, today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, better fed, have access to better medical treatment, etc., etc.,...but still the truly great players of MY era (the 60's and 70's) would be great today. Jim Brown combined speed and power, and weighed 230 lbs. OJ Simpson was among the fastest football players ever (and Bob Hayes probably was); Koufax was throwing nearly 100 mph back in the 60's (and he had to SLOW down his fastball to control it), and Nolan Ryan WAS throwing 100 (in fact, Ryan's very last pitch was clocked at 98 MPH...and with an injured arm); Mickey Mantle was hitting 500+ ft HRs back in the 50's (incidently Barry Bonds CAREER long HR was measured at 490 ft.); of course Chamberlain was dunking on 12 ft rims back in the 50's, as well as bench-pressing around 500 lbs, and outrunning KC Chiefs fastest players; Pistol Pete was a true magician with a basketball...he would put guys like Jason Williams to shame; Russell did everything well, AND he was probably among the smartest players ever; in the 80's we had Dickerson, Walker (with world-class speed), and Bo...who was running a 4.12 40 at 225 lbs.

I could go on for hours, but believe me, the greats of yesteryear would be great today...especially with all of the advantages that the "modern" player has had.

Having said that, though, I would never suggest that Jordan, or Kobe, or Lebron, or Peyton Manning, or Pedro, Maddux, Randy Johnson, and MANY other great athletes of this generation...would not have been dominant back in the 60's and 70's either.

For anyone to suggest that MJ, or Baylor are not deserving of all-time recognition is just being idiotic. We can all argue who we believe to be the better players, but we have to acknowledge that these legends were/are all truly great.

[EllEffEll]

I feel like Bob McAdoo should get a sniff here if we're talking "peak" years:

McAdoo won the 1973 NBA Rookie of the Year Award in his first season, and earned the first of three consecutive NBA scoring titles in only his second season. His 2nd season (1973-74) remains the last time an NBA player has averaged both 30.0 points per game and 15.0 rebounds per game over the course of a season. McAdoo also led the NBA in field goal percentage in 1973-74, shooting 54.7 percent. That year he enjoyed his first (of five) All-Star selection. In 1974-75 he was awarded the NBA Most Valuable Player Award, averaging 34.5 points, 14.1 rebounds and 2.12 blocks per game, while shooting 51.2 percent from the field and 80.5 percent from the free throw line.

[plowking]

AirJordan,

I agree with you 100%. I don't have a problem with someone expressing their opinions as to who their "favorite" all-time player(s) is/are...but to rip other great players is ridiculous.

And, while old age brings many problems, it does also lend a perspective, especially for those that were fortunate enough to see many of these all-time greats actually play.

I will agree that, as a whole, today's athletes are bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, better fed, have access to better medical treatment, etc., etc.,...but still the truly great players of MY era (the 60's and 70's) would be great today. Jim Brown combined speed and power, and weighed 230 lbs. OJ Simpson was among the fastest football players ever (and Bob Hayes probably was); Koufax was throwing nearly 100 mph back in the 60's (and he had to SLOW down his fastball to control it), and Nolan Ryan WAS throwing 100 (in fact, Ryan's very last pitch was clocked at 98 MPH...and with an injured arm); Mickey Mantle was hitting 500+ ft HRs back in the 50's (incidently Barry Bonds CAREER long HR was measured at 490 ft.); of course Chamberlain was dunking on 12 ft rims back in the 50's, as well as bench-pressing around 500 lbs, and outrunning KC Chiefs fastest players; Pistol Pete was a true magician with a basketball...he would put guys like Jason Williams to shame; Russell did everything well, AND he was probably among the smartest players ever; in the 80's we had Dickerson, Walker (with world-class speed), and Bo...who was running a 4.12 40 at 225 lbs.

I could go on for hours, but believe me, the greats of yesteryear would be great today...especially with all of the advantages that the "modern" player has had.

Having said that, though, I would never suggest that Jordan, or Kobe, or Lebron, or Peyton Manning, or Pedro, Maddux, Randy Johnson, and MANY other great athletes of this generation...would not have been dominant back in the 60's and 70's either.

For anyone to suggest that MJ, or Baylor are not deserving of all-time recognition is just being idiotic. We can all argue who we believe to be the better players, but we have to acknowledge that these legends were/are all truly great.

You're telling me Wilt could bench press 500lbs in the 50's when he was 225lbs? I have a hard time believing that. Maybe in the 70's when he was done and at a solid 305lbs, but I have a hard time believing he was lifting more than double his body weight at such a skinny frame, with such long arms. I would go so far to say it's impossible.

[spree43]

I'm no expert as my knowledge only really extends to the early 90s, but I get the impression a lot of people disregard the greats of yesteryear based, not on skill, but style. They see a player like Lebron or Jordan or anyone today and they carry the ball as they dribble, slinging jumpshots and it looks cool/sexy

But then they look at players from the 60s/70s and don't have the same style, they don't carry the ball ... Though they are probably equally skilled, if not more fundamentally sound. Even Pistol Pete, who as mentioned was a great ball handler, passer etc and would still be today, didn't look like players today, but if he carried like today he would have been called.

I've got a question for Jlauber.
How athletic was Russell? I've heard stories, probably slightly exagerated. But my point is that he was 6'9, the same as Lebron, now I know he wasn't the physical specimen of Lebron, or had his agility. But people say Russell wouldn't be effective today and I think that if a a player of Lebron height and athleticism(or even a a bit less) had Russell's fundamental mindset/intelligence, timing and was determined to play C he could guard the best Cs today no problem, look at some of the centres today. I think Russell could still put up 15 pts, 14 rebounds, 3-4 blocks, 2 steals ...
Do you think Russell could be this effective today?

Consider Gerald Wallace is 6'8 and also

Consider Dwight is probably only 6'10 as well

[spree43]

Let me redefine that ...

Do you think it is logical to believe that in today game Bill Russell, as he was in his prime, could turn up at training camp for the Celtics next year and average 15 ppg, 16 rpg, 4 bpg, 2 spg? ... And lead them to the title

From all reports I think he could, he was strong, athletic 6'10 (now that I check it), long arms and people who watched him say he was a genius at defense, timing blocks and rebounding. I find it hard to believe he would not be a better rebounder than Gerald Wallace, or equal if not better blocker than Howard

[Cyclone112]

And for those that compare Wilt's 50 ppg to MJ's 37 ppg season...Wilt averaged his total in a league that averaged 119 ppg, while MJ's was in a league that averaged 110. AND, Wilt shot .506 from the field in a league that averaged .426. Meanwhile MJ shot .482 in a league that shot .480. A case could be made that Kobe's best scoring season was better than MJ's. Kobe averaged 35.4 in a league that averaged 97 ppg, and he shot .450 in a league that averaged .454. In any case, there is simply no comparison between MJ's best scoring season, and Wilt's.

You can't be serious. You pick a few stats that favour your argument even though you don't use them in proper context and state there is no comparison(Using league wide NBA PPG even though each team has their own individual PPG average as well as pace which is a major factor in that number). Just doing a few simple but obvious mathematical equations I can show that Wilt's 50ppg average is inflated and completely dependent on the era. Of course anything I do below is an approximation as you can't just use formulas in scenarios such as this but what it does do is provide somewhat proper context which you seem to never do.

First thing I will look at is the MPG.



61/62 Wilt: 48.5
86/87 MJ: 40.0

The above shows that Wilt played an extra 21.3% more each game which is a huge percentage and while you may disagree with me targeting this attribute, there is no way in today's NBA that Wilt plays every minute of every game. I'll try to be reasonable and assume Wilt still plays 43MPG in today's NBA which is still too high to begin with as MJ's highest MPG is 40.4 but I know you will cite his amazing conditioning etc. That drops the percentage down to 12.8%(5.5/43).

Unfortunately pace ratings don't exist that far back but since you like to use the league averages I'll do the same but for their specific teams and not the league's as it will make it more accurate.



61/62 Sixers PPG: 125.4 NBA PPG: 119
86/87 Bulls PPG: 104.8 NBA PPG: 110

61/62 Sixers FGA: 124.5
86/87 Bulls FGA: 106.8

The Bulls had the slowest paced team that year as well but they were 12th in Offensive Rating. How many points would MJ have scored if he had a faster team that year? It would seem that Wilt's team was faster than the league average although that may not be the case as we don't know the Offense Rating and I'm sure you will claim it was solely because of Wilt that they averaged 6 points more than the average team. That is of course possible though because with the extra minutes he played he would produce more than his replacement on the court.

I could probably go through and calculate the amount of FGA's and rebounds for each team in the league back then to make a more accurate assessment which I may do when I'm bored some day but I think it's fairly reasonable to assume they were faster paced than the average team back then with the information I'm given.

The numbers above shows the 61/62 Sixers scored 19.7% more points than the Bulls but Wilt's MPG skews that statistic so attempting to be fair I'll drop that percentage to 16% which I feel is fair as that would drop the Sixers to 120.8PPG which is slightly above league average.

[CODE]
50.4 - 50.4*(.128) = 43.95
43.95

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=Cyclone112]You can't be serious. You pick a few stats that favour your argument even though you don't use them in proper context and state there is no comparison(Using league wide NBA PPG even though each team has their own individual PPG average as well as pace which is a major factor in that number). Just doing a few simple but obvious mathematical equations I can show that Wilt's 50ppg average is inflated and completely dependent on the era. Of course anything I do below is an approximation as you can't just use formulas in scenarios such as this but what it does do is provide somewhat proper context which you seem to never do.

First thing I will look at is the MPG.



61/62 Wilt: 48.5
86/87 MJ: 40.0

The above shows that Wilt played an extra 21.3% more each game which is a huge percentage and while you may disagree with me targeting this attribute, there is no way in today's NBA that Wilt plays every minute of every game. I'll try to be reasonable and assume Wilt still plays 43MPG in today's NBA which is still too high to begin with as MJ's highest MPG is 40.4 but I know you will cite his amazing conditioning etc. That drops the percentage down to 12.8%(5.5/43).

Unfortunately pace ratings don't exist that far back but since you like to use the league averages I'll do the same but for their specific teams and not the league's as it will make it more accurate.



61/62 Sixers PPG: 125.4 NBA PPG: 119
86/87 Bulls PPG: 104.8 NBA PPG: 110

61/62 Sixers FGA: 124.5
86/87 Bulls FGA: 106.8

The Bulls had the slowest paced team that year as well but they were 12th in Offensive Rating. How many points would MJ have scored if he had a faster team that year? It would seem that Wilt's team was faster than the league average although that may not be the case as we don't know the Offense Rating and I'm sure you will claim it was solely because of Wilt that they averaged 6 points more than the average team. That is of course possible though because with the extra minutes he played he would produce more than his replacement on the court.

I could probably go through and calculate the amount of FGA's and rebounds for each team in the league back then to make a more accurate assessment which I may do when I'm bored some day but I think it's fairly reasonable to assume they were faster paced than the average team back then with the information I'm given.

The numbers above shows the 61/62 Sixers scored 19.7% more points than the Bulls but Wilt's MPG skews that statistic so attempting to be fair I'll drop that percentage to 16% which I feel is fair as that would drop the Sixers to 120.8PPG which is slightly above league average.

[CODE]
50.4 - 50.4*(.128) = 43.95
43.95

[Alhazred]

Those FEW were not POOR rebounders, but NONE of them were anything close to being great rebounders. Take a long look at the rosters of those 27-29 teams in the late 80's thru the 00's. They were filled with seven-footers who could barely get five rebounds a game. Guys like 7-4 Rik Smits, or 7-3 Mark Eaton struggling along with 8 rebounds per game...and these were two of the BETTER centers of that 15-20 year period.

Probably because they had to deal with the three point line and a slower pace. I'm sure they'd get 10-12 easily if they played center back in the early 70s or late 60s. Well, Eaton would, not sure about Smits, he liked to shoot from outside a lot.


When a 6-3, 170 lb guard is among the league leaders in rebounding (Fat Lever...at 9 rpg BTW) that tells me a lot about these "greats"...Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Motumbo...and their typical 12-13 rebound games. They were not dominating their inferior competition.

:wtf: Wilt played in a league with no three pointer, faster pace and rarely faced players taller than 7' 0", not to mention players back then rarely lifted weights due to the myth that it would ruin your shot. Also weren't guys like Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson averaging 10+ a game? Neither of them were over 6' 5".

Fat Lever was considered an exceptional player in his prime, by the way. He was very well-rounded and led the Nuggets in rebounding for a few seasons.


While there were more shots to be rebounded in the '71-72 season, take a look at what Chamberlain faced night in-and-night out. Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Dave DeBusschere, Kareem, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes...all in the HOF...as well as Clifford Ray, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk, Gus Johnson, Bill Bridges, Spencer Haywood, Clyde Lee, and teammate Happy Hairston...all exceptional rebounders. And he faced them 4-6 times EACH that season...not the 2-4 times that the "greats" of the 80's and 90's faced each other.

I agree they are all talented rebounders, but would they put up the same numbers playing under today's rules? Also, most of them averaged around 13-15 a game, right? That's not far off from what most big men averaged in the 90s when you factor in changes in the NBA from then to today.

[Cyclone112]

Good breakdown, but minutes per game and team FGA are impacted by the player significantly and I don't see them as relevant factors to Wilts average.

I'm glad you liked it but I don't see why you think MPG and team FGA aren't relevant. If Wilt plays 20% more than MJ he has a significant amount of time to further his statistics. Team FGA was there just to signify the higher pace they played at and while its not perfect like everything else I stated it definitely shows they played at a higher pace.

I do believe his stats will NOT drop proportionally to time/pace with the math I did above but it's hard to take that into consideration and I tried to compensate for it a bit lowering both percentages a bit and maybe I just didn't lower them enough. Of course there are so many other factors involved and many others may increase his output as well and I bet 33 is too low honestly. I think Wilt in his best season in the modern era could score more than 33PPG


If 50 ppg in '62 is = to 33 in the modern era, how come no one else ever even scored 40 in the 60'?

That's like saying if MJ averaged 33 the next bext player in the league would average less than 25.
Well Elgin Baylor was the second highest scorer that season with 38.3PPG and Dominique was second with 29.0PPG in MJ's season. If we do a ratio of how many points Nique scored relative to MJ and Elgin relative to Wilt we get:



38.3/50.4 = 0.78 = 76%
29.0/37.1 = 0.76 = 78%

So Elgin scored 76% the amount of points that Wilt did while Nique scored 78% the amount of points that MJ did which is very close.

[ILLsmak]

It's really hard to judge a player unless you saw them. I didn't start watching basketball seriously (like every game I could find) until 1994-95.

I know Bird was a beast... I've seen plenty of film, but unless you see a player a lot and against the best comp it's hard to tell. Film is hype, in a way. Stats can be misleading if it's your only judgment of a player. Even watching hardwood classics on espn or nba tv is not conclusive because they are just ONE GAME or ONE SERIES. You might think Wade was the GOAT 20 years down the line if they only showed him vs Dallas in the Finals.

Plus, you know, eras are different. This is mostly just name dropping...

-Smak

[jlauber]

Cyclone,

Your numbers are impressive. But I think they discount Wilt's 48.5 mpg...which NO ONE else has ever come CLOSE to. I'm sure you can find a player, here-or-there, in NBA history that averaged 10 ppg over a 9 minute per game, which would translate into over 50 ppg. But is that a valid comparison? Secondly, Baylor only played 48 games...so technically, he was not involved in the scoring race that season...which would leave Bellamy's 31 ppg as the next highest mark...a DISTANT second Chamberlain. Finally, if you want to use some kind of calculations...what would have Wilt averaged in the '66-'67 season, had he taken 40 shots per game? He shot .683 from the floor.

Alhazred,

I agree with much of what you are suggesting. I just think that the top rebounding centers of the 80's and 90's, played against so MANY mediocre centers...guys that were 7-2 but could barely get 5 rpg, that they should have rebounded better. If Rodman could do it, why couldn't Shaq?

And, once again, using Wilt's 1972 season as an example...Wilt not only faced more top rebounders in that season, he faced them more often.

I realize with different eras, numbers can get skewed, but I always like to rationalize it this way. WATCH video footage of Wilt against his peers. He DOMINATED them on the glass. I brought up the case of Boerwinkle having a higher "rebound rate" that season. However, in the playoffs, Chamberlain just CRUSHED him.

Anyway, I enjoy these intelligent discussions. Both you guys have brought up good points. We will never really know how these guys would have played, had they played in the same eras, but once again, they were certainly great in their's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Wilt in his best season in the modern era could score more than 33PPG

No way a center could score 33+ in today's game on a good team. It's too slow, and too perimeter-oriented.

Take Wilt's 1961-1962 season and give him 40 mpg and put him at the pace Shaq played at in 2000. Suddenly his numbers translate to 29.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg and 1.4 apg on 23.4 shots per game.

Wilt's Warriors had a pace factor of 129.7 while Shaq's Lakers had a pace factor of 93.3. That's a difference of 36.4 possessions per game!

I don't but any player playing anywhere near 48 mpg, much less a 7'1", 275 pound superstar center. Michael Jordan never played more than 40.4 mpg in a season.

[ILLsmak]

But Wilt did go all 48 quite a bit... which in itself is impressive.

-Smak

[ShaqAttack3234]

But Wilt did go all 48 quite a bit... which in itself is impressive.

-Smak

Yeah, very impressive, but in today's game, no coach or GM would allow any player to come close. It was a different era, quite a few guys were averaging 44-46 mpg.

[ILLsmak]

hey, I'm not arguing for Wilt, though. Shaq is the best I've ever seen... hands down. I think Kareem might have the more impressive resume, but I bet prime Deezy would beast him.

-Smak

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Michael Jordan prime is greater than anybody else's prime by a mile. LOL @ people trying to be rebels by saying someone other than MJ prime was the best, just because it is so obvious MJ prime was the best.

[ILLsmak]

By a mile? I dunno. How long was MJ's prime in your eyes? His 'career' might have been better, but then you can open up the whole Kareem or Bill Russell thing.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Those FEW were not POOR rebounders, but NONE of them were anything close to being great rebounders. Take a long look at the rosters of those 27-29 teams in the late 80's thru the 00's. They were filled with seven-footers who could barely get five rebounds a game. Guys like 7-4 Rik Smits, or 7-3 Mark Eaton struggling along with 8 rebounds per game...and these were two of the BETTER centers of that 15-20 year period.

When a 6-3, 170 lb guard is among the league leaders in rebounding (Fat Lever...at 9 rpg BTW) that tells me a lot about these "greats"...Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Motumbo...and their typical 12-13 rebound games. They were not dominating their inferior competition.

While there were more shots to be rebounded in the '71-72 season, take a look at what Chamberlain faced night in-and-night out. Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Jerry Lucas, Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Dave DeBusschere, Kareem, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes...all in the HOF...as well as Clifford Ray, Tom Boerwinkle, Neal Walk, Gus Johnson, Bill Bridges, Spencer Haywood, Clyde Lee, and teammate Happy Hairston...all exceptional rebounders. And he faced them 4-6 times EACH that season...not the 2-4 times that the "greats" of the 80's and 90's faced each other.

And for 6-8 Rodman to lead the league by large margins was just laughable. Still, in the playoffs, Rodman came back down to earth, and was merely a good rebounder...unlike Wilt and Russell, who were even greater during their post-season's.

Keep in mind that PF was the rebounding position. You name Eaton but he was a shot blocker. Smits was on the team with some pretty good rebounders, too. Not to mention he was soft. When you have like Derrick McKey, Antoino Davis, and Dale Davis it's hard to get 10 rebounds.

Eaton was on the team with Karl Malone, right? Plus neither or the two had high minutes per game... 26 and 28, respectively.

-Smak

[ShaqAttack3234]

hey, I'm not arguing for Wilt, though. Shaq is the best I've ever seen... hands down. I think Kareem might have the more impressive resume, but I bet prime Deezy would beast him.

-Smak

IMO '67 Wilt has as good of a case as anyone, although it's tough to say since such little footage exists.

[Cyclone112]

No way a center could score 33+ in today's game on a good team. It's too slow, and too perimeter-oriented.

Take Wilt's 1961-1962 season and give him 40 mpg and put him at the pace Shaq played at in 2000. Suddenly his numbers translate to 29.9 ppg, 15.2 rpg and 1.4 apg on 23.4 shots per game.

Wilt's Warriors had a pace factor of 129.7 while Shaq's Lakers had a pace factor of 93.3. That's a difference of 36.4 possessions per game!

I don't but any player playing anywhere near 48 mpg, much less a 7'1", 275 pound superstar center. Michael Jordan never played more than 40.4 mpg in a season.

Well I said 'could' not 'would' and it may be true under the right conditions. In the conditions you stated I agree he would not average 33+PPG. I'm trying to be fair and give leeway because I'm only basing this on stats and really I never watched the games as pretty much nobody here has.

[Psileas]

I'm not a fan of just posting a list without any justification, but since I don't have much time to post, my take on the best primes is:

PG:

Magic
Oscar
Isiah/Paul (widely considered a top-5 player in the last 3 seasons, I hope his surgery won't cost him much, so that he'll continue to dominate)
Cousy

SG:

Jordan
Kobe
West
Wade
Gervin

SF:

Bird
James
Erving
Baylor
Barry

PF:

Duncan
Garnett
Barkley
K.Malone
Pettit

C:

Chamberlain
Abdul-Jabbar
Shaq
Hakeem
Robinson/Russell

[Alhazred]

Alhazred,

I agree with much of what you are suggesting. I just think that the top rebounding centers of the 80's and 90's, played against so MANY mediocre centers...guys that were 7-2 but could barely get 5 rpg, that they should have rebounded better. If Rodman could do it, why couldn't Shaq?

Well, Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson and Ewing all had to also handle scoring and shotblocking duties whereas Rodman's role was generally to just grab boards and play defense.


And, once again, using Wilt's 1972 season as an example...Wilt not only faced more top rebounders in that season, he faced them more often.

Most of whom were also much smaller players who didn't have the strength or stamina to keep up with Wilt, mainly because several of them were actually forwards. Plus, a lot of those guys would have been terribly undersized if they played today at the same positions they originally did(not all, but some of them). I just don't see 6' 7" Happy Hairston grabbing 12 boards a game in the 90s, but maybe I'm wrong.


I realize with different eras, numbers can get skewed, but I always like to rationalize it this way. WATCH video footage of Wilt against his peers. He DOMINATED them on the glass. I brought up the case of Boerwinkle having a higher "rebound rate" that season. However, in the playoffs, Chamberlain just CRUSHED him.

Boerwinkle only averaged 11.2 rebounds a game that year, so no big surprise. :oldlol:


Anyway, I enjoy these intelligent discussions. Both you guys have brought up good points. We will never really know how these guys would have played, had they played in the same eras, but once again, they were certainly great in their's.

Agreed. :cheers: I don't mean to insult any 70s players, I think it was a fun era and I've enjoyed reading about it since I was only 10. That said, it was a much different league than it was in 1985 and beyond so it's hard to compare different players' competition when they played decades a part.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm glad you liked it but I don't see why you think MPG and team FGA aren't relevant. If Wilt plays 20% more than MJ he has a significant amount of time to further his statistics. Team FGA was there just to signify the higher pace they played at and while its not perfect like everything else I stated it definitely shows they played at a higher pace.

I do believe his stats will NOT drop proportionally to time/pace with the math I did above but it's hard to take that into consideration and I tried to compensate for it a bit lowering both percentages a bit and maybe I just didn't lower them enough. Of course there are so many other factors involved and many others may increase his output as well and I bet 33 is too low honestly. I think Wilt in his best season in the modern era could score more than 33PPG


Well Elgin Baylor was the second highest scorer that season with 38.3PPG and Dominique was second with 29.0PPG in MJ's season. If we do a ratio of how many points Nique scored relative to MJ and Elgin relative to Wilt we get:



38.3/50.4 = 0.78 = 76%
29.0/37.1 = 0.76 = 78%

So Elgin scored 76% the amount of points that Wilt did while Nique scored 78% the amount of points that MJ did which is very close.

Damn good arguments, I didn't realize Nique was so far behind.

I'll still take Wilt's 50, but I admit this topic deserves a reevaluation on my part before I become to set in my ways.

[Cyclone112]

Damn good arguments, I didn't realize Nique was so far behind.

I'll still take Wilt's 50, but I admit this topic deserves a reevaluation on my part before I become to set in my ways.

:cheers: I'm glad to see some people are open to change and reevaluation, that's very respectable on your part to recognize and admit. I myself admittedly don't know enough about Wilt's 50ppg season as I'm sure few people do so I can't 100% say which season was better but the 50ppg season was done in a completely different context then the 37ppg season and people need to recognize that and not get baffled by how huge the 50PPG mark is. I don't mind someone claiming the 50PPG is the best as long as they back it up, understand the context and recognize its comparable with MJ's 37 PPG season.

[jlauber]

Cyclone writes:

"PS: I won't bother getting too into the Kobe comparison you made but again taking pace, MPG, FG% among other stats into account MJ's season is still better and that's just talking about scoring and not everything else MJ provided although in your defense you just said 'a case could be made' which is of course true but that same case can be made against Wilt even though you don't believe that to be so."

Let's see, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 97 ppg. Jordan averaged 37.1 in a league that averaged 110 ppg. Kobe shot .450 in a league that averaged .453, while MJ shot .482 in a league that averaged .480. MJ's team shot 87 FGA per game, while Kobe's shot 80 FGA per game.

Of course, here again, Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg in a league that averaged 119 ppg. He also shot .506 in a league that averaged .426.

Clearly, MJ played in a much less defensive oriented league than Kobe, and far less than Chamberlain.

Incidently, I DID see much of Wilt. I have posted this footage here before, but those that have not seen it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6k539HSbXM

Take a close look...fall-away bank shots, 15 ft. JUMP shots, sweeping hook shots, spinning post-moves, and even footage of him leading a fast-break down the floor, and finishing with a no-look, behind-the-back pass. His bank shots would rival Duncan's. He certainly had more skills than Shaq.

How about Wilt's defense?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=849_WdqJ8o8&NR=1

Much of that footage takes place later in Wilt's career, but even then, he was leaping higher than anyone who has ever played the game.

And here is one that I enjot posting, since it features Wilt, late in his career, against 7-2 Artis Gilmore. (incidently, Wilt not only easily outjumps Gilmore...he also looks taller, and much bigger.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI&NR=1


As for the comment that Wilt would not be playing 48 mpg today...he averaged 45.2 mpg for his CAREER. He led the NBA in that category EIGHT times, and even later in his career he was usually in the top-5. AND, in the post-season, he averaged 47.2 mpg for his CAREER. In fact, in his final Finals, at age 37, he played EVERY MINUTE of EVERY GAME.

In Wilt's first seven seasons, he averaged 39.6 ppg COMBINED. And, when he was finally paired up with talented surrounding casts, he cut back his scoring. From the '66-'67 season thru the '68-'69 season, he averaged 24.1, 24.3, and 20.5 ppg. HOWEVER, he had the HIGH games each year (58 in '67,... games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 in '68...and games of 60 and 66 in '69.) Incidently, that 66 point game in '69 came on 29-35 shooting. Furthermore, Wilt's new coach in the '69-'70 season, Joe Mullaney, asked Wilt to be the focal point of the offense...and he responded by averaging 32.2 ppg in his first nine games. Unfortunately, he suffered a horrific knee injury in that ninth game (a game in which he had scored 33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW)...and missed almost the rest of the entire season.


AND, the NBA instituted several rules aimed strictly at Wilt's dominance, including widening the lane just before the '65-'66 season. How much impact did that rule change have? His scoring dropped from 34.7 the previous year (on .510 shooting) all the way down to 33.5 ppg in '66 (on a new NBA record, at the time, of .540 .) The league also legislated a rule that prevented the dunking of FTs...of which Wilt could do without benefit of a full running start, and from inside the FT circle. One can only wonder how many more points Wilt would have scored in his career had they allowed him to do that.

Also, Wilt seldom used his massive strength and size to full advantage. Had Wilt played with Shaq's mentality in his career, they would have had to come up with even more rules to curtail his overwhelming dominance.


I don't know how many points per game Wilt would have averaged in the '86-'87 season, but given the fact that the league rosters were filled with mediocre clods manning the pivot, and given the fact that defense throughout the league was just two years removed from the highest league FG% mark in NBA history (.491), and was at .480...I think Chamberlain would have done quite well....especially had he pounded opponents like Shaq did.


Incidently, I was asked how I felt that Russell would have done in the modern era. Geez, with 6-8 Rodman dominating the glass in the 90's, and with the likes of 6-9 Ben Wallace and 6-11 Dwight Howard being among the better centers in the '00's...well, Russell, with his high-jumping ability (6'-9" in college), and with his keen sense of timing, I have no doubt he would have been among the elite centers...just as he was in the 60's.

Interesting discussions...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Let's see, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 97 ppg. Jordan averaged 37.1 in a league that averaged 110 ppg. Kobe shot .450 in a league that averaged .453, while MJ shot .482 in a league that averaged .480. MJ's team shot 87 FGA per game, while Kobe's shot 80 FGA per game.

Of course, here again, Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg in a league that averaged 119 ppg. He also shot .506 in a league that averaged .426.

Clearly, MJ played in a much less defensive oriented league than Kobe, and far less thanChamberlain.

When Kobe scored 35.4 ppg, Iverson scored 33 ppg, Lebron scored 31.4 ppg and Gilbert Arenas scored 29.3 ppg. That shows that scoring was up among perimeter players due to the no-handchecking rules. Hell, Iverson had previously been declinig before the rule changes and easily exceeded his peak season(31.1 ppg, 4.6 apg, 42 FG%, 25.5 FGA) with 33 ppg, 7.4 apg, 44.6 FG%, 25.3 FGA) in his 30's! Jordan and Chamberlain were both much farther ahead of their peers.


As for the comment that Wilt would not be playing 48 mpg today...he averaged 45.2 mpg for his CAREER. He led the NBA in that category EIGHT times, and even later in his career he was usually in the top-5. AND, in the post-season, he averaged 47.2 mpg for his CAREER. In fact, in his final Finals, at age 37, he played EVERY MINUTE of EVERY GAME. .


Nobody said there's no way he could do it. There's no way he'd be ALLOWED to do it. The way superstars are protected these days, particularly big men. I doubt Wilt would play more than 40 mpg, particularly with all of the traveling across the country in the league today.

[NBASTATMAN]

Discounting career achievements. Who are your top 5 players of All-Time at each position in terms of peak play.

C
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Charles Barkley
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Karl Malone
5. Dirk Nowitzki

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin Baylor

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Allen Iverson

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Gary Payton
5. John Stockton



Dirk should not be on that list.. Dirk is a scorer and that is all.. I will put elvin hayes on that list..


. Allen Iverson was a great scorer but he is not close to being better than Drexler.. I would put Drexler over my fav Wade also.. I can just imagine how hard it would be guard a guy the size of drexler with his athleticism with the new rules...

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's see, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 97 ppg. Jordan averaged 37.1 in a league that averaged 110 ppg. Kobe shot .450 in a league that averaged .453, while MJ shot .482 in a league that averaged .480. MJ's team shot 87 FGA per game, while Kobe's shot 80 FGA per game.

This is the amusing thing. MJ partisans want to adjust the stats of Wilt and Kareem for pace but not Mikey's. Great point. Let's kill some predictable responses:

1) Efficiency. MJ scored 1.33 points per shot, Kobe 1.30. You can't simply look at FG % because Kobe took 6.5 threes per game and Jordan only 0.8.

2) FTA. MJ took 11.9 FT per game, Kobe 10.2.

Free Throw Attempts
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 972
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 742
3. Moses Malone*-WSB 692
4. Adrian Dantley*-DET 664
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 631

Free Throw Attempts
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 829
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 819
3. LeBron James-CLE 814
4. Paul Pierce-BOS 812
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 803

That suggests Mikey was getting special treatment...The "more FT's" because of new rules argument does not apply in his case because Jordan was getting far more FT's than anyone else in the league--more than anyone under the "soft" 06' rules as a matter of fact!

Adjusted to MJ's team pace Kobe would be at 37.4 ppg, slightly higher than MJ's 37.1.

Great post on Wilt, as usual. :pimp:

[spree43]

hey, I'm not arguing for Wilt, though. Shaq is the best I've ever seen... hands down. I think Kareem might have the more impressive resume, but I bet prime Deezy would beast him.

-Smak
I dont think there has been a player that could stop prime shaq

[jlauber]

ShaqAttack3234,

The problem with trying to put Chamberlain's scoring into context with the more modern era of the 80's, 90's, and 00's...was the fact that Wilt seldom played all-out.

IMHO, Wilt's '67 season is the best in NBA history. He finished 5th in scoring, at 24.1 ppg, but as I stated previously, he put up the high game that year (as he would almost EVERY year he played...until his knee injury in '69-'70.) And, he shot a remarkable .683 from the field that year...which was not only WAY ahead of the league average of .441...it was also an NBA differential record of .162 over the next competitor, Walt Bellamy, at .521.) He had THREE perfect games that year (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18), and along the way, he made an NBA record 35 straight FGs, as well. Incidently, those three games are the three highest "perfect" games in NBA history. He also finished 3rd in assists at 7.8 apg (and would lead the league the very next year.) AND, he ran away with the rebounding ground, at 24.2, which was well ahead of Russell's 21.0.

In any case, those that argue MJ's career ppg mark of 30.1 is ahead of Wilt's 30.1, are not acknowledging the fact that Wilt COULD have scored so much more. As I mentioned in a previous post, Wilt averaged 40 ppg, in his first seven season's COMBINED. Geez, he had SEASONS against Russell in which he averaged nearly 40 ppg (and those were 17 game seasons BTW...including the playoffs)...and IMHO, Russell was THE greatest defensive player of all-time.

I have long regarded Shaq as one of the greatest of all-time. In fact, up until recently, I had Wilt at #1, Shaq at #2, and Kareem at #3, with MJ at #4, and Russell at #5 (and Magic at #6.) And I honestly believe that Shaq's "three-peat" Finals were the greatest post-seasons in NBA history. However, after being "educated" by several other posters, and watching video footage, and doing some research on my own...I have to move Russell to #1.

Now, I don't want to get into another long debate on that topic. If other's here believe MJ, or Shaq, or Kareem, or Magic, or Wilt are their pics for the greatest ever...I won't argue with you. They were ALL great. I just think that Russell's overall contributions are being minimized by today's generation.

[Story Up]

Discounting player achievements ... where is T-Mac

Prime, some of these are all wrong. In George Gervin's prime, he was getting four straight 30 ppg seasons.

Baylor should be higher than 5.

Bob Pettit is missing.

Oscar should be number 1, in his peak he averaged a triple double.
:oldlol: So what? It was in the 60's where Wilt was averaging 50 PPG.
Magic in his prime is easily better then Oscar's prime; numbers aren't every thing and how the **** is Rick Barry above Elgin Baylor?

[Story Up]

:roll: @ Dirk being above guys like McHale & even prime Chris Webber/Shawn Kemp or Pettit.

[jlauber]

Roundball,

Speaking of Kareem. A case could be made that his '70-'71 and '71-'72 seasons were also the greatest in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html


Offensively, Kareem, himself, said he didn't want to be another Wilt. I don't think there was any question, though, that in his prime, in the early 70's, he could have scored perhaps as much as 40+ ppg. He was the most skilled offensive force that I have ever witnessed. And while some of his other physical skills deteriorated over time, his "sky-hook" was still the deadliest shot in the NBA well into the 80's.

I have always felt, though, that as brilliant as Kareem was,...that he just seemed to never play all out, or that perhaps he could have dominated much more.

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll: @ Dirk being above guys like McHale & even prime Chris Webber/Shawn Kemp or Pettit.


Sheesh I forgot about Mchale..

[NBASTATMAN]

This is the amusing thing. MJ partisans want to adjust the stats of Wilt and Kareem for pace but not Mikey's. Great point. Let's kill some predictable responses:

1) Efficiency. MJ scored 1.33 points per shot, Kobe 1.30. You can't simply look at FG % because Kobe took 6.5 threes per game and Jordan only 0.8.

2) FTA. MJ took 11.9 FT per game, Kobe 10.2.

Free Throw Attempts
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 972
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 742
3. Moses Malone*-WSB 692
4. Adrian Dantley*-DET 664
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 631

Free Throw Attempts
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 829
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 819
3. LeBron James-CLE 814
4. Paul Pierce-BOS 812
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 803

That suggests Mikey was getting special treatment...The "more FT's" because of new rules argument does not apply in his case because Jordan was getting far more FT's than anyone else in the league--more than anyone under the "soft" 06' rules as a matter of fact!

Adjusted to MJ's team pace Kobe would be at 37.4 ppg, slightly higher than MJ's 37.1.

Great post on Wilt, as usual. :pimp:



Roundball Mj was taking alot more shots than Dominique.. If you compared Free throw attempts per shot taken by a player I am sure it would be close.. It is close.. Mj is fractions ahead of Dominique.. So that argument fails..

As for the Kobe and Mj argument I am tired of those..But I will go into the Kobe vs Iverson in 2005-2006 season..

Iverson and Kobe put up career numbers the year the new rules came into effect.. And if you want to go to PPS that year than Iverson was fractions better than Kobe in that category, as well as assists, and assist to turnover ratio that year.. It could easily be argued that Iverson was better offensively than Kobe by a decent margin.. Obviously Kobe has Iverson on the defensive side... Which made Kobe the better player..


HMMM

:pimp:

[plowking]

Roundball Mj was taking alot more shots than Dominique.. If you compared Free throw attempts per shot taken by a player I am sure it would be close.. It is close.. Mj is fractions ahead of Dominique.. So that argument fails..

As for the Kobe and Mj argument I am tired of those..But I will go into the Kobe vs Iverson in 2005-2006 season..

Iverson and Kobe put up career numbers the year the new rules came into effect.. And if you want to go to PPS that year than Iverson was fractions better than Kobe in that category, as well as assists, and assist to turnover ratio that year.. It could easily be argued that Iverson was better offensively than Kobe by a decent margin.. Obviously Kobe has Iverson on the defensive side... Which made Kobe the better player..


HMMM

:pimp:


Kobe put up career high in points because he was in his prime at 28 years old and on a horrible team where he had to carry the scoring load. Iverson on the other hand was also in his prime at 30, and was recovering from injuries from previous seasons.

[ThaRegul8r]

Roundball,

Speaking of Kareem. A case could be made that his '70-'71 and '71-'72 seasons were also the greatest in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html

Those would likely be in the discussion. In addition to being two of the three highest offensive win shares in a single season, they are also the two highest field-goal percentages in a season scoring over 30 points per game (my own research done for a piece on Kareem; I've never seen anyone else other than myself point this out):


HIGHEST FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FGM FG%
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 1063 .577
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 1159 .574
3. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 904 .570
4. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 914 .562
5. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 909 .559
6. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 802 .558
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1972-73 30.2 1772 982 .554
8. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1973-74 30.6 1647 901 .547
9. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1965-66 33.5 1990 1074 .540
10. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 990 .539

And they're also among the ten most efficient 30-ppg seasons in NBA history (this was research done after the 2006-07 season. I'll have to see if any updates need to be made in the two seasons since):


HIGHEST TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FTA Pts TS%
1. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 946 2418 .652
2. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 818 2457 .631
3. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 913 2540 .626
4. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 784 2452 .622
5. Michael Jordan Chicago 1988-89 32.5 1795 793 2633 .614
6. Michael Jordan Chicago 1989-90 33.6 1964 699 2753 .60597
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 681 2596 .60579
8. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 671 2580 .605
9. Michael Jordan Chicago 1987-88 35.0 1998 860 2868 .6034
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 732 2822 .6027

[jlauber]

Regul8r,

I am always impressed by your research...

IMHO, and statistically speaking, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt, at their best, were the most dominant players of all-time. In terms of overall play, I would give the edge to Chamberlain, but all three were nearly unstoppable on the offensive end.

The MJ-Kobe debate has been raging for several years now. I was already leaning towards Kobe a few years ago, and of course, I was getting ripped for it. However, as each season passes, and as we saw last night, Kobe is defintely narrowing the margin.

Opinions are just that...opinions...but Dan Patrick has been saying that he believes Kobe to be a better offensive player. I would not disagree, except to say, that in the post-season, MJ was better. I do believe that Kobe has more range. If you subtract the three years in which the NBA moved in the 3pt line, MJ's career 3pt percentage drops all the way down to .288.

IMHO, BOTH Kobe and MJ are the greatest "last two minute" players in NBA history, although Jerry West deserves acknowledgement (West had some of the greatest post-seasons in NBA history.)


Back to Russell...I am absolutely amazed at how much more highly regarded Wilt by "today's" generation. I must admit that very few people have been such a fervert supporter of Chamberlain, as myself. Ironically, though, as I have been fighting an uphill debate on that rivalry for years...just as the majority opinion has probably shifted towards Wilt, ...I have actually gone the other way. Still, from the 60's thru the 80's, Russell was regarded as not only superior to Chamberlain, most believed him to be the greatest of all-time.

Statistically, it was no contest. In terms of physical skills, ...again, no contest. But while Wilt was such a force INDIVIDUALLY (and a quality TEAM player later in the 2nd half of his career), Russell, quite simply, made his TEAM's better. Fatal9 has posted some great footage of Russell, and the more I watch it, the more I am amazed at just how brilliant Russell was. IMHO, the most intelligent BASKETBALL player, ever. His anticipation was second-to-none. His "help" defense...second-to-none. His outlet passing, his ability to run the floor, his keen sense of timing, his ferocious defense, his relentless offensive rebounding, his under-rated post play. I could go on-and-on, but I encourage everyone here, that has an interest in these discussions, to go to YouTube and spend a half-hour, or so, and WATCH his play. I think you will come across with a much higher degree of respect for his play.

Once again, though, most ALL of these players who have been mentioned in "All-Time" discussions, are worthy of it. I don't think anyone should be being ripped here for making their suggestions. I have had the good fortune to have witnessed most all of them, in their primes, except for Pettit and Cousey. Believe me, they were ALL exceptional. And virtually ALL of them would be great today, as well.

[Revelation]

Centers
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Russell
5. Hakeem

Power Forwards
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Pettit
5. Malone

Small Forwards
1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Baylor
4. Dr. J
5. Barry

Shooting Guards
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. T-Mac

Point Guards
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. GP
5. Stockton

Very good list. Though I think prime/peak T-mac was better than Wade has ever been. I would also argue that peak Barkley may have been better than peak KG.

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is the amusing thing. MJ partisans want to adjust the stats of Wilt and Kareem for pace but not Mikey's. Great point. Let's kill some predictable responses:

1) Efficiency. MJ scored 1.33 points per shot, Kobe 1.30. You can't simply look at FG % because Kobe took 6.5 threes per game and Jordan only 0.8.

2) FTA. MJ took 11.9 FT per game, Kobe 10.2.

Free Throw Attempts
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 972
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 742
3. Moses Malone*-WSB 692
4. Adrian Dantley*-DET 664
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 631

Free Throw Attempts
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 829
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 819
3. LeBron James-CLE 814
4. Paul Pierce-BOS 812
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 803

That suggests Mikey was getting special treatment...The "more FT's" because of new rules argument does not apply in his case because Jordan was getting far more FT's than anyone else in the league--more than anyone under the "soft" 06' rules as a matter of fact!

Adjusted to MJ's team pace Kobe would be at 37.4 ppg, slightly higher than MJ's 37.1.

Great post on Wilt, as usual. :pimp:

Come on Roundball Rock, I know you're better than that. It does't suggest Jordan in just his 3rd season(and less popular than Bird and Magic) was getting special treatment. It suggests that Jordan was too fast, athletic and relentless at attacking the rim.

Look at the FGA/FTA ratio of the top 5 scorers each season.

1987

1.Jordan- 2.34
2.Wilkins- 2.40
3.English- 3.94
4.Bird- 3.29
5.Vandeweghe- 2.93

1985

1.Bryant- 2.65
2.Iverson- 2.20
3.James- 2.24
4.Arenas- 2.09
5.Wade- 1.76

Come on, that's just ridiculous. Every single player in the top 5 in 2006 got the line at a noticeably higher rate than Jordan and Wilkins, two of the most athletic players ever. One of them(Iverson) got to the line at a MUCH higher rate than he did when he was younger and quicker in 2001 when he had his best season. In that season he had averaged 31.1 ppg, 4.6 apg and shot 42% shooting on 25.5 shots per game. In 2006 Iverson averaged 33 ppg, 7.4 apg and shot 44.6% on 25.3 shots per game.

How about Gilbert Arenas? Is there any reason OTHER than the new rules that he got the line a lot easier than a young Michael Jordan? The same Gilbert Arenas who shot 76% of his field goal attempts as jumpshots. Hell, 79% of Kobe's shots were jumpers. Wade was relentless attacking the rim, but I'd expect a rate a similar to young Jordan, not so astronomically high.

It's obvious that the new rules boosted perimeter players scoring.

Wilkins was 27 and in his athletic prime and he wasn't getting at a rate much less than Jordan was. I see no reason to think Jordan was favored. Kobe's 35.4 ppg was simply inferior to Jordan's 37 ppg. He was already taking 27.2 shots per game and I doubt he gets much more than that in any era, particularly since he wasn't even his team's leader in assists.

The 2006 season was an absolute joke as far as the rules. It made a mockery of the game. I don't care what anyone says, when Iverson comes out of nowhere and BLOWs away his best season while he's in his 30's, Gilbert Arenas gets to the line a lot easier than Jordan and Wilkins in their athletic prime and Wade attempts a free throw for every 1.75 field goal attempts. It should tell everyone something.

jordan's 37.1 ppg season was worlds more impressive than Bryant's 35.4. Jordan was slightly more efficient, but more impressive was that he accomplished it without any ridiculous rule changes.

[Revelation]

Jordan's 87-88 year (35.0ppg on 53.5% FG) would be a better comparison to Bryant's 05-06 year (35.4ppg on 45.0% FG). Regardless, if you look at career numbers Bryant falls drastically short.

Jordan’s 11 full seasons with the Bulls:

Year | TS% | eFG%
84-85: 592 | 518
85-86: *
86-87: 562 | 484
87-88: 603 | 537
88-89: 614 | 546
89-90: 606 | 550
90-91: 605 | 547
91-92: 579 | 526
92-93: 564 | 515
94-95: *
95-96: 582 | 525
96-97: 567 | 516
97-98: 533 | 473

Total TS = 6407 / 11 seasons = .582
Total eFG = 5737 / 11 seasons = .521
Total FG = 5695 / 11 seasons = .517
____

Avg. TS% = 58.2
Avg. eFG% = .52.1
Avg. FG% = 51.7
Avg. PPG = 31.7


Bryant's 11 Best Seasons:

Year | TS% | eFG%
96-97: *
97-98: *
98-99: 549 | 482
99-00: 546 | 488
00-01: 552 | 484
01-02: 544 | 479
02-03: 550 | 483
03-04: 551 | 468
04-05: 563 | 482
05-06: 559 | 491
06-07: 580 | 502
07-08: 576 | 503
08-09: 561 | 502

Tot TS = 6131 / 11 seasons = .557
Tot eFG = 5364 / 11 seasons = .487
Total FG = 5027 /11 seasons = 45.7
____

Avg. TS% = 55.6
Avg. eFG% = 48.5
Avg. FG% = 45.7
Avg. PPG = 27.2

[jlauber]

ShaqAttack,

Roundball's point was this...

Those who TRY to diminish Wilt's accomplishments, using era and pace, as well as DEFENSE being played (league FG%), will not acknowledge that those two points work in Kobe's favor when compared with MJ's best scoring season.

Wilt was LIGHT-YEARS ahead of his competition...and I don't care what numbers are used to skew that fact. He DOMINATED his league, STATISTICALLY at least, FAR more than MJ did in his best seasons.

Baylor's 38 ppg season in '61-'62 was basically accomplished part-time (48 games.) Walt Bellamy came in SECOND in the scoring race that year, at 31.6 ppg, or nearly TWENTY ppg behind Chamberlain.

Take a look at the all-time HIGH games...some of which includes Wilt in the late 60's, and when his scoring had dropped to around 23 ppg per season. Wilt had games of 60 and 66 in the '68-69 season, when his scoring had dropped to 20.5 ppg. In the '67-'68 season, Chamberlain averaged 24.3 ppg, BUT he had games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points!!!!

How many 70 point games did MJ have in his career? NONE. How about Wilt? SIX! Even Kobe's biggest game dwarfs MJ's, and I still rate Kobe's 81 point game behind his 62 point game, which was achieved in only three quarters.

And how about Wilt's OVERWHELMING differential in FG% over the league average??!!

And those that argue MJ's other skills...

He simply can't compare to Chamberlain's. Wilt won 11 rebound titles. MJ, ZERO. Wilt won NINE FG% titles, MJ, ZERO. How many assist titles did MJ win? ZERO. How about Wilt? ONE, (and third in another.) And while MJ was a great defender, I don't think he would come close to Wilt's overall domination at the defensive end. There are legitimate estimates giving Wilt an average of 10+ blocks per game, over the course of his entire CAREER.

Maybe Wilt's career achievements were recorded in a different era, but in any case, he was WAY ahead of his peers in virtually every statistical category. Geez, even as bad a FT shooter as he was, he had a season in which he MADE more FTs than MJ's best season.

AND, Wilt acomplished his records (some 72 of them) against the likes of Thurmond, Bellamy, Reed, Lucas, Hayes, Unseld, Lanier, Kareem, and Russell...ALL in the HOF.

Those that argue that Wilt would not have come close to his numbers in MJ's era, tend to discount the fact that TEAM defense was much worse, at least in the 80's, AND, the quality of NBA centers were to be kind, mediocre. Also, take a look at vintage footage of Wilt...he was CONSTANTLY swarmed by 2-3 defenders. He was also brutalized. And while the NBA legislated rules to HELP MJ, by eliminating hand-checking and the play of the "Bad Boys", as well as turning the other way while MJ traveled on half of his possessions...the NBA instituted several rules to curtail Chamberlain's dominance. And had Wilt played like Shaq, and just physically overpowered his peers....well, let's just say that the record book, of which he owns the lions's share, would be a separate volume from everyone else's. There would be the NBA record book,...and then Wilt's.

[ShaqAttack3234]

ShaqAttack,

Roundball's point was this...

Those who TRY to diminish Wilt's accomplishments, using era and pace, as well as DEFENSE being played (league FG%), will not acknowledge that those two points work in Kobe's favor when compared with MJ's best scoring season.

Sort of, but not really when you consider that Jordan was still more efficient than bryant and then you have the rule changes so it's a different situation.

One thing nobody has mentioned as well in Wilt's era is that you shot a free throw on non shooting fouls even if you weren't in the penalty and I'm pretty sure there were times when a player had 2 to make 1 and 3 to make 2 situations.

But, I'm not trying to diminish Wilt's accomplishments. First of all, I think comparing a perimeter player to a big man statistically is nonsensical. All I'm saying is that no big man in the modern era is getting much more than 30 ppg the way the game is played now. Hell, when Wilt averaged 50, he took 39.5 shots per game.


Wilt was LIGHT-YEARS ahead of his competition...and I don't care what numbers are used to skew that fact. He DOMINATED his league, STATISTICALLY at least, FAR more than MJ did in his best seasons.

No argument there.


Baylor's 38 ppg season in '61-'62 was basically accomplished part-time (48 games.) Walt Bellamy came in SECOND in the scoring race that year, at 31.6 ppg, or nearly TWENTY ppg behind Chamberlain.

Yes, but Baylor had averaged 34.8 ppg the season before that and 34 ppg the season after that so it's likely he wouldn't have dropped off that much.


Take a look at the all-time HIGH games...some of which includes Wilt in the late 60's, and when his scoring had dropped to around 23 ppg per season. Wilt had games of 60 and 66 in the '68-69 season, when his scoring had dropped to 20.5 ppg. In the '67-'68 season, Chamberlain averaged 24.3 ppg, BUT he had games of 52, 53, 53, and 68 points!!!!

How many 70 point games did MJ have in his career? NONE. How about Wilt? SIX! Even Kobe's biggest game dwarfs MJ's, and I still rate Kobe's 81 point game behind his 62 point game, which was achieved in only three quarters.

Jordan's 69 point game included 18 rebounds, 6 assists and 4 steals on 23/37 shooting. Bryant's 81 point game included a mere 6 rebounds and 2 assists and he took 46 shots and his 62 in 3 quarters included no assists. Plus both accomplishments were with the no touch rules.

Jordan's 69 point game is far more impressive. And when Wilt scored 100, he took 63 field goal attempts and 32 free throw attempts. Give Michael Jordan that many shots on one of his hot shooting nights and see what happens.

And how about Wilt's OVERWHELMING differential in FG% over the league average??!!


And those that argue MJ's other skills...

He simply can't compare to Chamberlain's. Wilt won 11 rebound titles. MJ, ZERO. Wilt won NINE FG% titles, MJ, ZERO. How many assist titles did MJ win? ZERO. How about Wilt? ONE, (and third in another.) And while MJ was a great defender, I don't think he would come close to Wilt's overall domination at the defensive end. There are legitimate estimates giving Wilt an average of 10+ blocks per game, over the course of his entire CAREER.

Now this is abetter point except for the FG% parts. FG% is a category dominated by centers. As far as league leaders? Well Jordan did play in a league with far more players, hence a small probability of him leading the league in apg. But he did averaged 32.5 ppg and 8 apg in a season at a considerably slower pace and in considerably fewer minutes than Chamberlain.

And Chamberlain's great passing and unselfish play was at a different time than his dominant scoring. Yes he could still score with the best of them in the late 60's, but it's the same with his defense. He always blocked shots, but he wasn't considerably to be truly a great defensive player until he sacrificed his scoring and focused more on defense.

And I am no Wilt hater, I think he could be the best player of all time and I've researched him myself as well. And you're correct about legit estimates of Wilt averaging over 10 blocks per game. Here's a quote from Robert Cherry's Wilt Chamberlain biography.


"Harvey Pollack, first Philadelphia's and then the NBA's maven on statistics, is convinced that Wilt averaged a triple double in the 1961-1962 season-for points (50.4), rebounds (25.7), and blocked shots. The problem is the league didn't recognize blocked shots as an official statistics until 1973. 'The record book says Elmore Smith holds the record of 17 blocked shots in a single game. know I kept I kept stats a game in which Wilt had 25 blocked shots,' Pollack recalled.

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball,

Speaking of Kareem. A case could be made that his '70-'71 and '71-'72 seasons were also the greatest in NBA history.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ows_season.html


Offensively, Kareem, himself, said he didn't want to be another Wilt. I don't think there was any question, though, that in his prime, in the early 70's, he could have scored perhaps as much as 40+ ppg. He was the most skilled offensive force that I have ever witnessed. And while some of his other physical skills deteriorated over time, his "sky-hook" was still the deadliest shot in the NBA well into the 80's.

I have always felt, though, that as brilliant as Kareem was,...that he just seemed to never play all out, or that perhaps he could have dominated much more.

Good post. The question of when Kareem's peak was came up in another thread but all of us were too young to answer it and there isn't enough footage pre-1980 for us to analyze. You saw his entire career. What do you think his peak was? Physically you would have to guess something like 1977.

His stats do suggest that he did not play 100% in the regular season because his stats almost always spiked in the playoffs, a la Shaq. However, maybe he was just like a Hakeem who just stepped up when the stakes were higher. I don't think anyone could have equaled Wilt's scoring but Kareem probably could have come closer than anyone else. Can you believe that Kareem never averaged more than 25 FGA per game? From 1977-1980 he was between 17-19 FGA. People like Jordan, Kobe, and AI have been in the 27-28 FGA range at a slower pace. If Kareem was as shot-oriented as some other players he likely could have reached 40. He had the most unstoppable shot in history. I was watching a game of his from 1977 about two weeks ago and Kareem was skyhooking over 3 defenders! Swish!




HIGHEST FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE IN A SEASON, WITH 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FGM FG%
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 1063 .577
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 1159 .574

35 PPG on 57%! :bowdown:



Look at the FGA/FTA ratio of the top 5 scorers each season.

1987

1.Jordan- 2.34
2.Wilkins- 2.40
3.English- 3.94
4.Bird- 3.29
5.Vandeweghe- 2.93

1985

1.Bryant- 2.65
2.Iverson- 2.20
3.James- 2.24
4.Arenas- 2.09
5.Wade- 1.76

I agree the rules helped. What I disagree with is the amount of emphasis placed on the rules. Look at Bird's 3.29. Plug that in for Kobe and he loses only 1 ppg per game. When you adjust for Jordan's pace he is at 36 ppg. Plus, FTA alone does not explain Kobe's jump to 35 ppg. He averaged 10.1 FTA in 05' and averaged only 28 ppg. What changed is he turned 27, and 27-30 is usually a basketball player's physical prime, and he took 7 more shots a game. Also, in 04' Kobe's FGA/FTA ration was 2.20! The following year it was 1.99. He was getting to the line more frequently then than in 06'. So how much impact did the new rules have when he was getting to the line less frequently in 06'? You could argue this was due to the dramatic rise in FGA but in 07' he was down to 22 FGA yet his ratio was still 2.28.


when Iverson comes out of nowhere and BLOWs away his best season while he's in his 30's,

ShaqAttack, AI was 30 that year. It isn't as if he was 33 and suddenly having his best year. I agree with you but I think the affect of the rules are exaggerated. AI took 1 more FTA than in 05' and 2 more FTA than in 04'. Since he shot around 80% that is an increase of 1.6 points. That doesn't explain going from 26 ppg to 33 ppg. Increasing his FG % from 39% to 45% was the main reason for that.

My point on FTA/pace, especially Kobe, is the affect of the rules are exaggerated. What had a greater impact is Kobe reaching his physical prime. Even if we adjust for Bird's relatively low FGA/FTA ratio Kobe would still score 34 ppg. Then when we adjust for MJ's pace he is back up to 36 ppg. We are talking minimal swings here. My overall point is Jordan fans love to adjust Wilt and Kareem's stats for pace but not MJ's when MJ had a higher pace than Kobe. As I mentioned in the other thread, Jordan fans also never want to adjust for FGA. They never want to talk FTA. Kareem never averaged more than 9.1 FTA.He was at 6-7, aside from one year at 8, from 1973-1982. Chris Bosh today gets to the line about as much (8.7) as Kareem did in his top season! Moses Malone in 1987 averaged 9.5 FTA while scoring "only" 24 ppg. It looks like it was easier to get to the line in 1987 than 1977... If you adjust for FGA , FTA, and usage (possessions consumed by a player) than KAJ clearly crushes MJ.



Jordan's 87-88 year (35.0ppg on 53.5% FG) would be a better comparison to Bryant's 05-06 year (35.4ppg on 45.0% FG). Regardless, if you look at career numbers Bryant falls drastically short.


We aren't talking about career numbers but peak years. However, since you posted MJ's 11 best years why not also post Kareem and Wilt's? :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

I agree the rules helped. What I disagree with is the amount of emphasis placed on the rules. Look at Bird's 3.29. Plug that in for Kobe and he loses only 1 ppg per game. When you adjust for Jordan's pace he is at 36 ppg. Plus, FTA alone does not explain Kobe's jump to 35 ppg. He averaged 10.1 FTA in 05' and averaged only 28 ppg. What changed is he turned 27, and 27-30 is usually a basketball player's physical prime, and he took 7 more shots a game. Also, in 04' Kobe's FGA/FTA ration was 2.20! The following year it was 1.99. He was getting to the line more frequently then than in 06'. So how much impact did the new rules have when he was getting to the line less frequently in 06'? You could argue this was due to the dramatic rise in FGA but in 07' he was down to 22 FGA yet his ratio was still 2.28.

The rule changes occurred prior to the 2004-2005 season, hence his FGA/FTA ratio. He also played at 230 pounds that year compared to the 214 he entered 2005-2006 at. That also has something to do with how much he attacked the rim and got to the line.


ShaqAttack, AI was 30 that year. It isn't as if he was 33 and suddenly having his best year. I agree with you but I think the affect of the rules are exaggerated. AI took 1 more FTA than in 05' and 2 more FTA than in 04'. Since he shot around 80% that is an increase of 1.6 points. That doesn't explain going from 26 ppg to 33 ppg. Increasing his FG % from 39% to 45% was the main reason for that.

Obviously, he wasn't 100% in '04, but the rule changes occurred prior to 2004-2005 and immediately he averages 31/8, stats he had never come close to before. On slightly less FGA, Iverson in 2006 took 1.5 more FTA than he did in 2001 when he was obviously at his peak. He was quicker back then so I see no real reason for this. And more importantly, the rule changes didn't just ipact FTA, they gave players like Iverson more room for their jumpshots and easier lay up attempts hence his FG% rising so much. It made the game a lot easier on guys like AI. Kobe was impacted less, but still impacted.


My point on FTA/pace, especially Kobe, is the affect of the rules are exaggerated. What had a greater impact is Kobe reaching his physical prime. Even if we adjust for Bird's relatively low FGA/FTA ratio Kobe would still score 34 ppg. Then when we adjust for MJ's pace he is back up to 36 ppg. We are talking minimal swings here. My overall point is Jordan fans love to adjust Wilt and Kareem's stats for pace but not MJ's when MJ had a higher pace than Kobe. As I mentioned in the other thread, Jordan fans also never want to adjust for FGA. They never want to talk FTA. Kareem never averaged more than 9.1 FTA.He was at 6-7, aside from one year at 8, from 1973-1982. Chris Bosh today gets to the line about as much (8.7) as Kareem did in his top season! Moses Malone in 1987 averaged 9.5 FTA while scoring "only" 24 ppg. It looks like it was easier to get to the line in 1987 than 1977... If you adjust for FGA , FTA, and usage (possessions consumed by a player) than KAJ clearly crushes MJ.

Except Kobe was already in such a ball dominant role(27.2 shot attempts) that I don't see his shots rising much anyway and if you put him in 1987, he's not going to be taking even half of the threes he did in 2006 as well. My opinion is that if you place 2005-2006 Kobe in 1987, he probably averages 32 ppg on 48% shooting. If you place him in an era where he could still shoot that many 3's(lets say 2001 or 2003) then he probably averages 34 or so ppg.

I don't like to compare perimeter players numbers to big men's numbers anyway. To me, they play the game in such a different way that it's pointless.

[Roundball_Rock]

The rule changes occurred prior to the 2004-2005 season, hence his FGA/FTA ratio. He also played at 230 pounds that year compared to the 214 he entered 2005-2006 at. That also has something to do with how much he attacked the rim and got to the line.

Here are his FGA/FTA ratios from 2001-08:

2.71 (22 years old)
2.70
2.70
2.21 (before rules changes)
1.99
2.67 (35 ppg season)
2.28
2.29


And more importantly, the rule changes didn't just ipact FTA, they gave players like Iverson more room for their jumpshots and easier lay up attempts hence his FG% rising so much. It made the game a lot easier on guys like AI. Kobe was impacted less, but still impacted.


Legit point. However, that raises the overall quality of defense issue.

1987


FG % 48.0%
EFG % 48.8%
Pace 100.8
PPG 109.9
D Rating 108.3

2006

FG % 45.4%
EFG % 49.0%
Pace 90.5
PPG 97.0
D Rating 106.2

The last point is the most interesting. D rating is how many points are allowed per 100 possessions so pace is not a factor. The #1 defense in 1987 would be the #9 defense in 2006. The #2 defense in 1987 would be tied for 13th in 2006. So even if we accept the argument that the new rules made things easier for perimeter players--which I agree with--Kobe still faced tougher defenses than MJ in 1987. So what is the argument? Should we adjust MJ's stats for weaker defenses too? :D

Here is what the rules did. Look at the figures from 2004:

FG % 43.9%
EFG % 47.1%
Pace 90.1
PPG 93.4
D Rating 102.9

The #17 defense in 2004 would be the #1 defense in 1987. The new rules made things easier but things were still tougher than in 1987. Defenses were more physical back then. And? The bottom line is they were coughing up more points than defenses in the 2000's.


Except Kobe was already in such a ball dominant role(27.2 shot attempts) that I don't see his shots rising much anyway and if you put him in 1987

If he goes to MJ's 87' team he would be shooting exactly one more shot than MJ did.


he's not going to be taking even half of the threes he did in 2006 as well. My opinion is that if you place 2005-2006 Kobe in 1987, he probably averages 32 ppg on 48% shooting. If you place him in an era where he could still shoot that many 3's(lets say 2001 or 2003) then he probably averages 34 or so ppg.

48% is a good figure. That is what he shot in 2006 on 2's. However, that was against 06' defenses. Against 87' defenses he would shoot at a higher clip. If you give him 28 shots a game on 51% and when you add in FT's he is in the same ballpark as his 06' scoring.

I don't think we should use his three point shooting against him. He should be rewarded for being a 35% three point shooter. Jordan shot 18% in 87' and 13% the following year.


I don't like to compare perimeter players numbers to big men's numbers anyway. To me, they play the game in such a different way that it's pointless.

MJ fans do--but only by cherry picking pace when it comes to Wilt and Kareem (they never look at pace when comparing Kobe or Lebron to Jordan's 80's numbers). They don't want to look at FGA, usage, or FTA. You know why. :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

Here are his FGA/FTA ratios from 2001-08:

2.71 (22 years old)
2.70
2.70
2.21 (before rules changes)
1.99
2.67 (35 ppg season)
2.28
2.29
[QUOTE]

2003-2004 is the one season that proves to be the exception to the rule, Kobe was consistently at 2.7 in his athetlc prime when he shot less long jumpers and attacked the basket more. 2002-2003 Kobe got to the line at a marginally worse rate than 2005-2006 Kobe, despite 2003 Kobe being even more athletic, bigger and stronger and shooting less 3's. As I said, I feel a player like Kobe was impacted less by the rule changes than a lot of players, he likely approaches that 35 ppg figure even without the rule changes, but the rate that guys like Arenas, Iverson and Wade got to the line at was a joke.

[QUOTE]Legit point. However, that raises the overall quality of defense issue.

1987


FG % 48.0%
EFG % 48.8%
Pace 100.8
PPG 109.9
D Rating 108.3

2006

FG % 45.4%
EFG % 49.0%
Pace 90.5
PPG 97.0
D Rating 106.2

But that's overlooking one important factor as far as FG% ect. The game because MUCH more 3 point-oriented and the game relied on high percentage players like big men A LOT more up until recently. Look at the top offensive low post big men in 2006.

1.Yao Ming- 22.3 ppg, 51.9 FG%(played 57 games)
2.Pau Gasol- 20.4 ppg, 50.3 FG%
3.Shaquille O'Neal- 20.0 ppg, 60 FG%(played 59 games)
4.Tim Duncan- 18.6 ppg, 48.4 FG%


If he goes to MJ's 87' team he would be shooting exactly one more shot than MJ did.

29 FGA per game is a lot. For him to average 0.3 more ppg on an extra shot per game isn't putting Kobe in a favorable light, IMO.




48% is a good figure. That is what he shot in 2006 on 2's. However, that was against 06' defenses. Against 87' defenses he would shoot at a higher clip. If you give him 28 shots a game on 51% and when you add in FT's he is in the same ballpark as his 06' scoring.

But then you're adding a noticeably higher volume of 2 point shots as well as more congestion in the lane for perimeter players. 48% is fair, it evens everything out.



I don't think we should use his three point shooting against him. He should be rewarded for being a 35% three point shooter. Jordan shot 18% in 87' and 13% the following year.

I'm not trying to penalize him for it, I'm just being realistic. In 1987, players aren't going to be taking 6+ threes a game. It just wasn't how the game was played. Larry Bird was widely consiered one of if not the top 3 point shooters in '87 and he shot 40% on 3 attempts per game and despite missing 8 games, he STILL led the league in made 3's with 90 of them.

Jordan also proved he, too, could make 3's when he shot a good amount such as 38% in 1990, 35% in '93, 43% in '96, 37% '97, 40% in the '96 playoffs, 39% in the '91, '92 and '93 playoffs and 37% in the '95 playoffs.



MJ fans do--but only by cherry picking pace when it comes to Wilt and Kareem (they never look at pace when comparing Kobe or Lebron to Jordan's 80's numbers). They don't want to look at FGA, usage, or FTA. You know why. :D

While I'm not sure how well Jordan compares to Kareem and Wilt, I do think he comes out quite favorably when comparing him to James and Bryant, logically. Although how far James carries modest talent could be used as an advantage for him.

[Duncan21formvp]

We aren't talking about career numbers but peak years. However, since you posted MJ's 11 best years why not also post Kareem and Wilt's? :D

Jordan already has a higher PER in the season and playoffs and finals than them and he has more win shares in the playoffs than them even Kareem despite Kareem playing 50 more playoffs games than him.

[G.O.A.T]

I got a ton to say on this subject, what a great thread it's turned out to be because of all the cordial and thoughtful debate.

Centers
1. Bill Russell
Why: The only player to go unbeaten during his physical and statistical prime. From '59-'66 having Russell on your team guaranteed you the title. He consistently outlasted his closest competition at the position Wilt Chamberlain regardless of who had the better supporting cast. No player has ever meant more to his team and no one in any sport ever won like this, at the end of the day, I want a winner and Russell's results overpower any argument against his merits.
2. Wilt Chamberlain
Why: No one ever dominated statistically like Wilt, his highest scoring and rebounding average as well as FG% are all-time NBA records (still). The problem with Wilt is how rarely in his prime he turned his talents into titles. '67 Wilt is arguably the best ever, but why did '66. '68 & '69 Wilt lose to Russell despite equal or better supporting casts? Wilt could have been #1 on this list, but he never reached his potential because he was obsessed with trying to exceed it.
3. Shaquille O'Neal
Why: As far as guys who guaranteed you a title go nobody had that oh so dominant feel like the Diesel in the first part of the last decade. Shaq was truly unstoppable, even more so then Jordan at his best, however unlike Jordan and Russell and even in a certain way Wilt, Shaq didn't always want to be the best. He didn't always want to win. Otherwise why show up out of shape in at least three prime seasons? Shaq, like Wilt could have been number one on my list, but he never reached his potential either.
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Why: There was always something missing with Kareem, Alcindor had an edge, a drive to be the best, Abdul-Jabbar disliked the label and the expectations that came with it. How can a guy be the best player in the NBA from 1972-1979 and never win a title, even through the worst seasons in modern NBA history his teams struggled to win even a playoff series. All that said, he was truly unstoppable on offense, you just had to hope he missed, somehow though he never inspired others to be better or made them better with his play and as was shown during his Laker days, even as the most talented player on his team, he was better as the second star in terms of perception.
5. Moses Malone
Why: It's all about '83. Sure Moses three MVPs and astounding rebounding make an indelible mark, but it's winning the title during the prime for both the Lakers and the Celtics, the only team to do so, that gives him the edge over Walton and Hakeem. Sure Philly was good and Moses had taken Houston to the Finals in '81, but what he did for the 76ers that season was special and has probably only been rivaled by Garnett's debut in Boston in terms of greatest first season with a team.


More on the other positions later, but lets start with the bigs.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The MJ-Kobe debate has been raging for several years now. I was already leaning towards Kobe a few years ago, and of course, I was getting ripped for it. However, as each season passes, and as we saw last night, Kobe is defintely narrowing the margin.

LMAO :oldlol:

Especially the bolded part, but all of it really. Just huge LOLs. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

Regul8r,

I am always impressed by your research...

IMHO, and statistically speaking, Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt, at their best, were the most dominant players of all-time. In terms of overall play, I would give the edge to Chamberlain, but all three were nearly unstoppable on the offensive end.

The MJ-Kobe debate has been raging for several years now. I was already leaning towards Kobe a few years ago, and of course, I was getting ripped for it. However, as each season passes, and as we saw last night, Kobe is defintely narrowing the margin.

Opinions are just that...opinions...but Dan Patrick has been saying that he believes Kobe to be a better offensive player. I would not disagree, except to say, that in the post-season, MJ was better. I do believe that Kobe has more range. If you subtract the three years in which the NBA moved in the 3pt line, MJ's career 3pt percentage drops all the way down to .288.

IMHO, BOTH Kobe and MJ are the greatest "last two minute" players in NBA history, although Jerry West deserves acknowledgement (West had some of the greatest post-seasons in NBA history.)


Back to Russell...I am absolutely amazed at how much more highly regarded Wilt by "today's" generation. I must admit that very few people have been such a fervert supporter of Chamberlain, as myself. Ironically, though, as I have been fighting an uphill debate on that rivalry for years...just as the majority opinion has probably shifted towards Wilt, ...I have actually gone the other way. Still, from the 60's thru the 80's, Russell was regarded as not only superior to Chamberlain, most believed him to be the greatest of all-time.

Statistically, it was no contest. In terms of physical skills, ...again, no contest. But while Wilt was such a force INDIVIDUALLY (and a quality TEAM player later in the 2nd half of his career), Russell, quite simply, made his TEAM's better. Fatal9 has posted some great footage of Russell, and the more I watch it, the more I am amazed at just how brilliant Russell was. IMHO, the most intelligent BASKETBALL player, ever. His anticipation was second-to-none. His "help" defense...second-to-none. His outlet passing, his ability to run the floor, his keen sense of timing, his ferocious defense, his relentless offensive rebounding, his under-rated post play. I could go on-and-on, but I encourage everyone here, that has an interest in these discussions, to go to YouTube and spend a half-hour, or so, and WATCH his play. I think you will come across with a much higher degree of respect for his play.

Once again, though, most ALL of these players who have been mentioned in "All-Time" discussions, are worthy of it. I don't think anyone should be being ripped here for making their suggestions. I have had the good fortune to have witnessed most all of them, in their primes, except for Pettit and Cousey. Believe me, they were ALL exceptional. And virtually ALL of them would be great today, as well.
Mj is better. There isn't any room to lean anywhere.

[juju151111]

This is the amusing thing. MJ partisans want to adjust the stats of Wilt and Kareem for pace but not Mikey's. Great point. Let's kill some predictable responses:

1) Efficiency. MJ scored 1.33 points per shot, Kobe 1.30. You can't simply look at FG % because Kobe took 6.5 threes per game and Jordan only 0.8.

2) FTA. MJ took 11.9 FT per game, Kobe 10.2.

Free Throw Attempts
1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 972
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 742
3. Moses Malone*-WSB 692
4. Adrian Dantley*-DET 664
5. Magic Johnson*-LAL 631

Free Throw Attempts
1. Allen Iverson-PHI 829
2. Kobe Bryant-LAL 819
3. LeBron James-CLE 814
4. Paul Pierce-BOS 812
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 803

That suggests Mikey was getting special treatment...The "more FT's" because of new rules argument does not apply in his case because Jordan was getting far more FT's than anyone else in the league--more than anyone under the "soft" 06' rules as a matter of fact!

Adjusted to MJ's team pace Kobe would be at 37.4 ppg, slightly higher than MJ's 37.1.

Great post on Wilt, as usual. :pimp:
LOL round trying to compare MJ and Kobe. SMH and don't look know KD got another 11 rebounding game. When will it stop??? LOL I told you man 8 rebs by the end of the season. LOL I told you i had him ranked at the write place.

[magnax1]

PG-
1-Isiah
Stockton
Magic
Oscar (all pretty close
5-Nash
SG-
1-Jordan
2-Kobe
3-West
4-Wade
5-AI
SF-
1-Bird
2-Dr. J.
3-Lebron
4-barry
5-Baylor
PF-
1-KG
2-Barkley
3-McAdoo
4-Malone/Duncan
C-
1-Wilt
2-Shaq/Kareem
3-Russell
4-Hakeem
5-Moses

[rfm767]

I would take Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at #2 interchangeable with Wilt at #1, leaving Shaq for 3rd, other than that, a quite measured list.

[spursdynasty420]

PG-
1-Isiah
Stockton
Magic
Oscar (all pretty close
5-Nash
SG-
1-Jordan
2-Kobe
3-West
4-Wade
5-AI
SF-
1-Bird
2-Dr. J.
3-Lebron
4-barry
5-Baylor
PF-
1-KG
2-Barkley
3-McAdoo
4-Malone/Duncan
C-
1-Wilt
2-Shaq/Kareem
3-Russell
4-Hakeem
5-Moses

terrible list mainly the PF list. you got KG over duncan AND barkley ridiculous lol

[Fatal9]

....
Your ignorance on Kareem has already been exposed numerous times (you didn't even know what went on in the series vs. Walton)...why should we take the opinion of someone who knows so little about his career seriously? LOL at Shaq over Kareem. Lets see...Kareem is every bit as dominant offensively, is clearly the better defender with insane shot blocking instincts while being mobile enough to help out on double teams on the perimeter. Best of all, he is an all around big man that comes without the liability of poor FT shooting. Not to mention Kareem is the clutchest center ever, whereas giving Shaq the ball down 2-3 pts on a game defining possession is a huge risk.

[jlauber]

Before I get started, I want to apologize to ShaqAttack...

I had no business making the statement that Wilt was FAR more dominant than MJ. In fact, I have been preaching here that most ALL of these guys were great. MJ was quite possibly the greatest post-season performer ever (although Russell, Kareem, and Shaq certainly deserve recognition, too...and perhaps other's as well.)

I have been fighting the myth's of Chamberlain since the 60's. And that is why I tend to be so defensive about criticism of him. There was (and to many, still is) this misguided perception that Wilt was some kind of frankenstein, who dunked on skinny, nerdy, uncoordinated, white, 6-6 centers in his career. That he could dunk for 50 points a game on the "geeks", but when he was challenged by Russell, he "choked" and was a bitter failure.

The FACTS were, the average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 50 years, the average starting center has grown all of TWO inches. Secondly, I have posted footage of Wilt here, and I urge all of those "doubters" to go back a page, and take a look at them. That is not some lumbering giant dunking at point-blank range against helpless centers. Wilt was hitting fall-away bank shots from 15+ ft; he was hitting JUMP shots from above the FT line; he was swishing sweeping hook shots from 10 ft.; he had a VARIETY of post moves; he was blocking shots from all over the floor (and take a close look at the footage of those blocks...there are several on Kareem); he was leading a fast-break, and finishing it with a no-look, behind-the-back pass to a cutting shooter.

As for Wilt "choking" against Russell...I have documented it here several times now. STATISTICALLY, Wilt abused Russell. Now, don't get me wrong, Russell was NEVER about stats...except wins and championships...but for those that somehow have this perception that Russell just dominated Wilt...nothing could be further from the truth. Russell contained Wilt just enough, to allow his teammates to win their matchups. AND, Russell made his teammates better, too. But, it was never a case of Wilt "folding" against Russell.

I have said it many times here now, but compare that footage of Wilt, with footage of Dwight Howard...and you tell me who was more skilled? Not only that, but Wilt was taller, bigger, stronger, faster, and could jump higher than Howard. If Howard is the best in the NBA right now, I see no reason why Wilt would not be putting up a 35-18 game every night.

AND, if Wilt is better than Howard...what about Russell and Kareem...both of whom were nearly on par with Wilt, if not his equal? And just a notch below them, you had Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Gilmore.


Sorry for the long rant, ...and NONE of it was aimed at most of the posters here (least of all ShaqAttack...who appears as knowledgeable on the subject as myself, if not moreso.) But I have been involved in so many discussions on the topic of Chamberlain in my lifetime, and it is almost laughable at how little the current generation (and even many of those in MY generation) that somehow believe Wilt was some giant clod feasting on helpless runts.


Furthermore, I think we should respect most everyone's opinions here on this subject. I don't see any sense to bash another's opinion(s), or a "great" player, because none of us truly know how any of these guys would do had they had the opportunity to play against each other.

Personally, I think Russell is getting short-changed here, and I never thought I would live to see the day when the majority of opinion favored Wilt over Russell. Amazingly, though, I find myself defending Russell (not that he needs MY defense...he has the 11 rings.) Several posters here have supplied valid arguments which explain WHY Russell was a "winner." Not only that, but Fatal9 provided video footage of Russell, in his prime, and I just marveled at what I saw. I still can't believe that I didn't remember just how great that guy really was. When Russell-supporters tell you to throw stats out the window, they are right. But, take the time and WATCH video footage of Russell. The skills, ferocity, intelligence, and "clutch" play speaks volumes about him.

Here again, I also SAW many games involving Kareem in my teen years, into my adult life. He was, IMHO, the most offensively skilled center that I ever had the pleasure of watching. Roundball asked, and my answer is this...I think Kareem hit his peak in his 2-4 years in the NBA. I really think he could have easily scored 40+ ppg in those years, had he been more selfish. My biggest problem with Kareem, though, was that he peaked early, and then seemed to lose interest. Don't get me wrong...he was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the NBA in the 70's, at least when decided he wanted to be. But I think he started going thru the motions for the latter part of the decade. IMHO, though, while he was at his physical peak in the early 70's, his finest moments came in the '79-'80 Finals, and amazingly, in the '84-'85 Finals. Those two performances have to rank among the best ever in that venue.

As for Shaq...I think most everyone here probably watched him in his prime. I have been saying for the last few years, that his "three-peat" Finals were the most dominating in NBA history. AND, I think that had Phil Jackson could have made him even more dominant, had he chosen to emphasize getting the ball into Shaq AFTER he made his move into the lane. As it was, Shaq would get 5-10 point-blank dunks by using his massive size and strength, and just powering his way into the lane, and then catching the ball from passes at the rim. There was just no one, or even TWO, players who could keep him out of the key.

I have been a Kobe fan for years, but I have to place a lot of blame on him in the '04 Finals. In game one, Shaq just abused DPOY Ben Wallace, who was helpless in guarding Shaq one-on-one. Shaq scored 38 points on 16-21 shooting (most all of them thunderous dunks.) But, instead of continuing to feed Shaq, Kobe kept firing blanks. Even Jack Ramsey made the comment that Shaq could have scored 60 that night. And, LA continued to ignore Shaq the rest of that series, too.

In any case, Oscar, West, Dr. J, Barry, M. Malone, Magic, Bird, McHale, Worthy, Dantley (and BIG thanks to Regul8r BTW, who brought up some fascinating info on his impact), McAdoo, Cowens, Havlicek, Hayes, Stockton, Duncan, Baylor, Lucas, MJ, Kobe, and so many others deserve to be rated on these "all-time" lists. I realize that, using the original criteria (top-5 at every position) that there will be some arguments. But, ALL of those guys were great. It is ridiculous to rip any of them.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Before I get started, I want to apologize to ShaqAttack...

I had no business making the statement that Wilt was FAR more dominant than MJ. In fact, I have been preaching here that most ALL of these guys were great. MJ was quite possibly the greatest post-season performer ever (although Russell, Kareem, and Shaq certainly deserve recognition, too...and perhaps other's as well.)

I have been fighting the myth's of Chamberlain since the 60's. And that is why I tend to be so defensive about criticism of him. There was (and to many, still is) this misguided perception that Wilt was some kind of frankenstein, who dunked on skinny, nerdy, uncoordinated, white, 6-6 centers in his career. That he could dunk for 50 points a game on the "geeks", but when he was challenged by Russell, he "choked" and was a bitter failure.

The FACTS were, the average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. In 2009, it was 7-0. So, in 50 years, the average starting center has grown all of TWO inches. Secondly, I have posted footage of Wilt here, and I urge all of those "doubters" to go back a page, and take a look at them. That is not some lumbering giant dunking at point-blank range against helpless centers. Wilt was hitting fall-away bank shots from 15+ ft; he was hitting JUMP shots from above the FT line; he was swishing sweeping hook shots from 10 ft.; he had a VARIETY of post moves; he was blocking shots from all over the floor (and take a close look at the footage of those blocks...there are several on Kareem); he was leading a fast-break, and finishing it with a no-look, behind-the-back pass to a cutting shooter.

As for Wilt "choking" against Russell...I have documented it here several times now. STATISTICALLY, Wilt abused Russell. Now, don't get me wrong, Russell was NEVER about stats...except wins and championships...but for those that somehow have this perception that Russell just dominated Wilt...nothing could be further from the truth. Russell contained Wilt just enough, to allow his teammates to win their matchups. AND, Russell made his teammates better, too. But, it was never a case of Wilt "folding" against Russell.

I have said it many times here now, but compare that footage of Wilt, with footage of Dwight Howard...and you tell me who was more skilled? Not only that, but Wilt was taller, bigger, stronger, faster, and could jump higher than Howard. If Howard is the best in the NBA right now, I see no reason why Wilt would not be putting up a 35-18 game every night.

AND, if Wilt is better than Howard...what about Russell and Kareem...both of whom were nearly on par with Wilt, if not his equal? And just a notch below them, you had Lanier, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Gilmore.


Sorry for the long rant, ...and NONE of it was aimed at most of the posters here (least of all ShaqAttack...who appears as knowledgeable on the subject as myself, if not moreso.) But I have been involved in so many discussions on the topic of Chamberlain in my lifetime, and it is almost laughable at how little the current generation (and even many of those in MY generation) that somehow believe Wilt was some giant clod feasting on helpless runts.


Furthermore, I think we should respect most everyone's opinions here on this subject. I don't see any sense to bash another's opinion(s), or a "great" player, because none of us truly know how any of these guys would do had they had the opportunity to play against each other.

Personally, I think Russell is getting short-changed here, and I never thought I would live to see the day when the majority of opinion favored Wilt over Russell. Amazingly, though, I find myself defending Russell (not that he needs MY defense...he has the 11 rings.) Several posters here have supplied valid arguments which explain WHY Russell was a "winner." Not only that, but Fatal9 provided video footage of Russell, in his prime, and I just marveled at what I saw. I still can't believe that I didn't remember just how great that guy really was. When Russell-supporters tell you to throw stats out the window, they are right. But, take the time and WATCH video footage of Russell. The skills, ferocity, intelligence, and "clutch" play speaks volumes about him.

Here again, I also SAW many games involving Kareem in my teen years, into my adult life. He was, IMHO, the most offensively skilled center that I ever had the pleasure of watching. Roundball asked, and my answer is this...I think Kareem hit his peak in his 2-4 years in the NBA. I really think he could have easily scored 40+ ppg in those years, had he been more selfish. My biggest problem with Kareem, though, was that he peaked early, and then seemed to lose interest. Don't get me wrong...he was head-and-shoulders above the rest of the NBA in the 70's, at least when decided he wanted to be. But I think he started going thru the motions for the latter part of the decade. IMHO, though, while he was at his physical peak in the early 70's, his finest moments came in the '79-'80 Finals, and amazingly, in the '84-'85 Finals. Those two performances have to rank among the best ever in that venue.

As for Shaq...I think most everyone here probably watched him in his prime. I have been saying for the last few years, that his "three-peat" Finals were the most dominating in NBA history. AND, I think that had Phil Jackson could have made him even more dominant, had he chosen to emphasize getting the ball into Shaq AFTER he made his move into the lane. As it was, Shaq would get 5-10 point-blank dunks by using his massive size and strength, and just powering his way into the lane, and then catching the ball from passes at the rim. There was just no one, or even TWO, players who could keep him out of the key.

I have been a Kobe fan for years, but I have to place a lot of blame on him in the '04 Finals. In game one, Shaq just abused DPOY Ben Wallace, who was helpless in guarding Shaq one-on-one. Shaq scored 38 points on 16-21 shooting (most all of them thunderous dunks.) But, instead of continuing to feed Shaq, Kobe kept firing blanks. Even Jack Ramsey made the comment that Shaq could have scored 60 that night. And, LA continued to ignore Shaq the rest of that series, too.

In any case, Oscar, West, Dr. J, Barry, M. Malone, Magic, Bird, McHale, Worthy, Dantley (and BIG thanks to Regul8r BTW, who brought up some fascinating info on his impact), McAdoo, Cowens, Havlicek, Hayes, Stockton, Duncan, Baylor, Lucas, MJ, Kobe, and so many others deserve to be rated on these "all-time" lists. I realize that, using the original criteria (top-5 at every position) that there will be some arguments. But, ALL of those guys were great. It is ridiculous to rip any of them.

Good post, it's nice to see someone who has watched the sport for so many years post here. No need to apologize either. But could Wilt really jump higher than Howard? Howard's vertical is about 39" or so and we've seen it on display. I read a description of Wilt from the mid 50's in Robert Cherry's biography that stated, and I'm paraphrasing "Wilt has a standing reach of 9'6" and he can touch atleast 12'6". Honestly I've never seen footage of Wilt jumping that high, although here at 34, his head isn't that far from the rim.

Go to 1:48 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tt13a6b_uA

Also check out the amazing block at 5:40, Wilt forces a guard to pass and then recovers to block the shot.

[ThaRegul8r]

In any case, Oscar, West, Dr. J, Barry, M. Malone, Magic, Bird, McHale, Worthy, Dantley (and BIG thanks to Regul8r BTW, who brought up some fascinating info on his impact) ... and so many others deserve to be rated on these "all-time" lists.

Adrian Dantley is one of those players who fell under the radar historically. From 1980-81 to 1983-84, Dantley averaged 30.7, 30.3, 30.7 (didn't play the whole season due to injury), and 30.6 points per game, leading the league twice, and his field-goal percentages for these years were 55.9%, 57.0%, 58.0%, and 55.8%. And he was the most efficient 30-point per game scorer in NBA history. He shot a high percentage from the field—he has three of the top six highest single-season field-goal percentages with a 30-ppg average in NBA history, but he also drew a ton of fouls on top of it. “Once he gets to the lane, two things are gonna happen most often: he’s either gonna score, or get fouled.” In that span he averaged 9.8, 10.1, 11.3, and 12.0 free throw attempts per game.

Dantley led the league in free-throw attempts three times and finished second twice, led the league in free throws made five times, and ranks sixth all-time in free throws made (6,832), behind Karl Malone (9,787), Moses Malone (9,018), Oscar Roberson (7,694), Michael Jordan (7,327), and Jerry West (7,160). In 1983-84, he made 813 free throws, the fourth-highest single-season total in NBA history—behind West (840 in 1965-66), Wilt Chamberlain (835 in 1961-62), and Jordan (833 in 1986-87), and January 4, 1984 Dantley made 28 of 29 free throws in a 116-111 win against the Rockets, tying the single-game record for most free throws made in a game set by Wilt Chamberlain in his 100-point game (Dantley scored 46 for the game, on 15 FGA: 9-for-15 shooting).

Because of the high amount of free throws in addition to his .558 FG%, that season was the most efficient 30 ppg season in NBA history (30.6 ppg on 18.2 FGA [the fewest for 30 ppg in NBA history]), a true shooting percentage of 65.2%. He also has three of the top four most efficient 30-ppg seasons in NBA history. He averaged 24.3 ppg for his career on 54.0 percent shooting (28th all-time), and ranks fourth all-time in true shooting percentage (61.7%)

[G.O.A.T]

The downside to Dantley is two fold

1) he didn't play a lick of defense
&
2) His teams weren't usually winners.

In Utah he scored at a blistering pace and with with stunning efficency, but it was in the most efficent scoring era in NBA history, the early 1980's so the numbers look a little better than they actually were in terms of impact.

When he went to Detroit, he was part of a winner, Joe Dumars said that Dantley's work ethic rubbed off on the Pistons and it made them a better team, but ultimatley he and Isiah butted heads too often, it became a distraction and they traded him to Dallas for Mark Aguirre, moved Rodman into the starting line-up and won back-to-back titles in the next 18 months.

And while I loved AD's post game and propensity to get to the line in big situations or when you needed a bucket, there is no denying his inability to guard Worthy cost Detroit the '88 Finals (almost as much as the phantom call on Laimbeer). As good as he was, it was about timing as much as anything. Put him in todays NBA and he's probably prime Corliss Williamson with slighty better returns. Maybe a 18 a game guy shooting 50-55%.

[spree43]

Ok, I've tried to take in what everybody has writen in this thread, and it is probably he most informative thread I've read on Insidehoops EVER.

But here is my best attempt at the originally requested ranking, of best PRIME player;

NOTE : Dont attack my choice of years too much, I just tried to give a few year max span to call their prime, it was hard for some because they were so great for such a long period, so for the players I didnt experience I based it on MVP awards and stats.

Centres

1a - Kareem (1971,72)
1b - Shaq (2000-02)
1c - Wilt (1966-68)
1d - Russell (1961-63)
5 - Olajuwon (1994)

I know its soft but I just couldnt split the top 4 there, they are too hard to distinguish in my opinion and any attempt to would just be the result of some degree of bias or opinion. I gave Hakeem 5th over Malone because the Dream was perhaps one of the most unstoppable players ever around 94-95 and lead a relatively weak team to a title.

Power Forwards

1 - Barkley (1993)
2a - Duncan (2003)
2b - Garnett (2004)
4 - Hayes (1970,71)
5 - Malone (1996-98)

I really dont know much about the power forwards from the old days, but these are the 5 best in terms of my knowledge, knowing that there were better but my knowledge isnt good enough to rank those players.
I went with 1993 Barkley becaus I know he was great that year. Duncan and Garnett were hard to rate so I called them equal. Hayes I'm not sure how inflated his stats could be, but reports I've read rank him amongst the best. Malones defense was a little questionable compared to those above him IMO.

Small Forwards
1 - Bird (1984-86)
2a - Dr J (1980-82 NBA wise)
2b - Lebron (2010)
2c - Baylor (1961-63)
5 - Barry (1975)

I think Bird is above the other two, but the next three were hard to separate. I added Barry on reputation alone (again I dont know too much about him). Dont underate what we are seeing right now from Lebron.

Shooting Guards
1 - Jordan (1991-92)
2 - Kobe (2008)
3 - Wade (2006 esp. finals, 2009)
4a - West (1969)
4b - Gervin (1980-82)
4c - Maravich

Jordan was an easier choice, Kobe I think takes second, and I think iif we're going prime Wade deserves this. I havent seen much of Pete, West or Gervin, but I know Wade put up similar stats and is a great defender, clutch player and can carry a team, so I gave him the spot.


Point Guards
1 - Oscar (1964)
2 - Magic (1987-90)
3 - Isiah (1985-87)
4 - CP3 (2008)
5 - Nash (2005-06)

I gave this to Oscar closely followed by Magic, then Isiah. You all might not like CP3 and Nash being so high, but I think CP3 (based on that single season) deserves to be high, he was great that year (I think he was the MVP, but Kobe took it based on his body of work, which I'm ok with), I think stockton was beter than Nash over his whole career but I see him performing at a great level for his whole career, while Nash was exception for those two years (especially 2006 where he didnt have Amare and its looking like he was a big reason marion was an allstar).

If you have some constructive critiscisms feel free to let me know, but dont get all angry about my rankings, I'm not living and dying by them, if anything I'd like to know if there are anythings I am missing or I could learn from this.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I gave Hakeem 5th over Malone because the Dream was perhaps one of the most unstoppable players ever around 94-95 and lead a relatively weak team to a title.
Fair and indeed arguable, for Hakeem was better defensively (though Mo was no slouch). But Mo is underrated for the mere fact that his game was not "attractive". He did not have a dream shake. He just flat out whipped your ass. And he was too much of a nomad to have a legacy tied down to one single team, and as a result his peak came in the early 80's split between the Rockets & Sixers. Very few men in the history of the league have won 3 MVP's. And I honestly don't see Anthony Mason (as good as he was) shutting Mo down in a Finals' series at all.

And note he also is the one that tutored a young Hakeem Olajuwon in Houston.

[spree43]

Fair and indeed arguable, for Hakeem was better defensively (though Mo was no slouch). But Mo is underrated for the mere fact that his game was not "attractive". He did not have a dream shake. He just flat out whipped your ass. And he was too much of a nomad to have a legacy tied down to one single team, and as a result his peak came in the early 80's split between the Rockets & Sixers. Very few men in the history of the league have won 3 MVP's. And I honestly don't see Anthony Mason (as good as he was) shutting Mo down in a Finals' series at all.

And note he also is the one that tutored a young Hakeem Olajuwon in Houston.
This is a case of my viewing only going back to the early 90's and when I go to the effort of watching old games Moses Malone isnt high on the list for the reasons you stated. But I do rank MVPs and All NBA awards higher than stats, as that is how that player was perceived at the time, so 3 is impressive and was hard to pass up on.

Its hard to take Hakeem out because watching that season he was dominant. If someone who watched moses is telling me he was as great as Hakeem, maybe I'll change it to this;

Centres

1a - Kareem (1971,72)
1b - Shaq (2000-02)
1c - Wilt (1966-68)
1d - Russell (1961-63)
5a - Olajuwon (1994)
5b - Malone (early 80s)

[phoenix18]

terrible list mainly the PF list. you got KG over duncan AND barkley ridiculous lol

Are we really forgetting the complete dominance KG displayed?

Defensively and Offensively, his prime was bananas.

[jlauber]

Good post, it's nice to see someone who has watched the sport for so many years post here. No need to apologize either. But could Wilt really jump higher than Howard? Howard's vertical is about 39" or so and we've seen it on display. I read a description of Wilt from the mid 50's in Robert Cherry's biography that stated, and I'm paraphrasing "Wilt has a standing reach of 9'6" and he can touch atleast 12'6". Honestly I've never seen footage of Wilt jumping that high, although here at 34, his head isn't that far from the rim.

Go to 1:48 in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tt13a6b_uA

Also check out the amazing block at 5:40, Wilt forces a guard to pass and then recovers to block the shot.

ShaqAttack,

Great footage. Geez, Wilt was also grabbing about every rebound in that game, too. Once again, I would like to thank you, and other's here, for providing these great videos. I have already posted a couple of them on a previous post, as well. One of them primarily shows his shot-blocking skills, and in it you will see Wilt blocking shots from several feet away.

As for his leaping ability...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk

"Wilt Chamberlain was known to have dunked on an experimental 12-foot basket set up by Phog Allen at the University of Kansas in the 1950s.[4] Michael Wilson, a former Harlem Globetrotter and University of Memphis basketball player, matched this feat on April 1, 2000 albeit with an alley-oop. Dwight Howard dunked on an 11ft6in basket in the 2009 NBA dunk contest also off an ally-oop.
Jim Pollard, Wilt Chamberlain, Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Stromile Swift, Shawn Kemp, Darrell Griffith, Korleone Young, Edgar Jones, LeBron James, James White, Vince Carter, Jamario Moon, Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, Jr., Brent Barry and Al Thornton have each dunked while jumping from around the free throw line, which is 15 feet from the basket. Unlike the others, Wilt Chamberlain did not require a full running start, but instead began his movement from inside the top half of the free throw circle.[4]"

I am no whiz at math, but if Wilt had a standing reach of 9'-6", and could dunk a 10" in diameter basketball on a 12 ft rim...and you would have to give him a couple of inches, since he did not do it with benefit of an alley-oop, to clear the rim...that is 13' - 9'-6" = 3' 6" or a vertical of at LEAST 42".

If you google vertical leap, you will see Wilt mentioned many times. His own estimates were between 46-48" . In any case, he won the Big-8 High-jump three years in a row at K.U.

There are so many stories about his leaping ability too. In one of them, Wilt was coaching the ABA Conquistadors, and as usual, he was late for practice. The SD players were shooting around, when the ball got stuck up in a guidewire. Several players attempted to knock it down, including 6-11 "Jumpin'" Caldwell Jones, but none succeeded. Wilt finally showed up, in a suit, and asked what was going on. When told what had happened, he slipped off his dress shoes, and easily tapped it down.

If you google Chamberlain's bench-press, you will get results anywhere up to 550 lbs. There is an actual eye-witness account of Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/faq.html#500

Speaking of age...how about the fact that Wilt was LEGITIMATELY pursued by NBA teams into his 40's...and even into his 50's. How well could he have played?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1"

As for his speed, Hank Stram invited Wilt to a Kansas City Chief training camp in the mid-60's. At one point they pitted their fastest RB, Curtis McClinton against Chamberlain, and Wilt dusted him. Incidently, Stram felt that Chamberlain could have been an All-Pro at THREE different positions...TE, DE, or LB. And remember, Stram had 6-9 Buck Buchanon anchoring his line in the late 60's.

I could go on for hours about Wilt's athleticism, but this topic is not just about him.

Regul8r,

I HATED Dantley in the late 80's. I just could not believe that a 6-5 player could be such a dominant POST player. But your research is the first that I have come across which makes a strong case that Dantley, at least in his prime, was the most efficient HIGH scoring player in NBA history. Just remarkable stuff. You are to be applauded for uncovering that, and many other interesting facts. That is one reason why I enjoy the discussions here...I get an education almost every time I pop in.


Again, thanks to all of youy guys...keep up the great work!

[ShaqAttack3234]

ShaqAttack,

Great footage. Geez, Wilt was also grabbing about every rebound in that game, too. Once again, I would like to thank you, and other's here, for providing these great videos. I have already posted a couple of them on a previous post, as well. One of them primarily shows his shot-blocking skills, and in it you will see Wilt blocking shots from several feet away.

As for his leaping ability...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slam_dunk

"Wilt Chamberlain was known to have dunked on an experimental 12-foot basket set up by Phog Allen at the University of Kansas in the 1950s.[4] Michael Wilson, a former Harlem Globetrotter and University of Memphis basketball player, matched this feat on April 1, 2000 albeit with an alley-oop. Dwight Howard dunked on an 11ft6in basket in the 2009 NBA dunk contest also off an ally-oop.
Jim Pollard, Wilt Chamberlain, Julius Erving, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Stromile Swift, Shawn Kemp, Darrell Griffith, Korleone Young, Edgar Jones, LeBron James, James White, Vince Carter, Jamario Moon, Dwight Howard, Mike Conley, Jr., Brent Barry and Al Thornton have each dunked while jumping from around the free throw line, which is 15 feet from the basket. Unlike the others, Wilt Chamberlain did not require a full running start, but instead began his movement from inside the top half of the free throw circle.[4]"

I am no whiz at math, but if Wilt had a standing reach of 9'-6", and could dunk a 10" in diameter basketball on a 12 ft rim...and you would have to give him a couple of inches, since he did not do it with benefit of an alley-oop, to clear the rim...that is 13' - 9'-6" = 3' 6" or a vertical of at LEAST 42".

If you google vertical leap, you will see Wilt mentioned many times. His own estimates were between 46-48" . In any case, he won the Big-8 High-jump three years in a row at K.U.

There are so many stories about his leaping ability too. In one of them, Wilt was coaching the ABA Conquistadors, and as usual, he was late for practice. The SD players were shooting around, when the ball got stuck up in a guidewire. Several players attempted to knock it down, including 6-11 "Jumpin'" Caldwell Jones, but none succeeded. Wilt finally showed up, in a suit, and asked what was going on. When told what had happened, he slipped off his dress shoes, and easily tapped it down.

If you google Chamberlain's bench-press, you will get results anywhere up to 550 lbs. There is an actual eye-witness account of Chamberlain benching 465 lbs...at age 59.

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/faq.html#500

Speaking of age...how about the fact that Wilt was LEGITIMATELY pursued by NBA teams into his 40's...and even into his 50's. How well could he have played?

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

"Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently[1"

As for his speed, Hank Stram invited Wilt to a Kansas City Chief training camp in the mid-60's. At one point they pitted their fastest RB, Curtis McClinton against Chamberlain, and Wilt dusted him. Incidently, Stram felt that Chamberlain could have been an All-Pro at THREE different positions...TE, DE, or LB. And remember, Stram had 6-9 Buck Buchanon anchoring his line in the late 60's.

I could go on for hours about Wilt's athleticism, but this topic is not just about him.


I'm not sure I buy a 42" vertical or Wilt dunking on baskets to be honest. I am skeptical. That would make his vertical about equal to Michael Jordan and I've never seen footage of him jumping that high. Doesn't mean he never did, but I"m skeptical about a 7'1" man with a 42" vertical.

I also don't buy Wilt bench pressing 550 pounds, especially not in Kansas like I've heard when Wilt was only 240-250 pounds. Shaq is 340 and I've heard his max is 455. Arnold Schwarzenegger was a foot shorter than Wilt and because his arms weren't as long, more natural for bench pressing. His top competition weight was about 250 and he bench pressed 500 max, iirc. This is what he looked like.

http://www.arthurshall.com/images/custom_images/arnold_schwarzenegger_training.jpg
http://arnold-schwarzenegger-bodybuilding.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/arnold-schwarzenegger-roids2.jpg

Keep in mind that Arnold was considered the top body builder of his time. As unbelievable as the things Wilt did on the court are, I have a hard time believing some of the off the court claims.

[GP_20]

PG-
1-Isiah
Stockton
Magic
Oscar (all pretty close
5-Nash


:roll:

[magnax1]

:roll:
How are you going to Try (and fail) to prove that GP was better then Stockton this time?