Jerry West, "There are a lot of lousy players in the league today".

[bdreason]

He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"




Jerry just put a serious beatdown on the NBA. :oldlol:

[oh the horror]

Well, sh*t.....he aint lying. :lol

[Knoe Itawl]

Fatal: "Jerry West is garbage"

[Anton Chigurh]

the logo spittin fire
:pimp:

[StroShow4]

Link?


Anyways, assuming it's legit, he simply sounds mad that his Lakers scoring record was just bested by Kobe.

[Abraham Lincoln]

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

No kidding..

[bdreason]

Link?


Anyways, assuming it's legit, he simply sounds mad that his Lakers scoring record was just bested by Kobe.


They just interviewed him on NBATV.

I tried to get the quotes as close as possible... but he definately sound bitter. He kept complimenting Kobe, and then taking a swipes at the NBA.

[Showtime]

Wow. People on a forum say the same thing, they are stupid. West says the same thing, he's a genius.

[StroShow4]

They just interviewed him on NBATV.

Oh, I see. Hopefully someone will put this on youtube, I'd like to see it.

[Indian guy]

:oldlol:

It never fails to amaze me just how bitter and insecure all past players tend to be about the current state of the league.

The sad thing is I bet Jerry West thought the EXACT same thing even 20 years ago. Why? Because he was no longer playing. To every retired fool the league automatically becomes worse once they're no longer a part of it. It's bitterness and insecurity, nothing more. I read Wilt's A View from Above a few months ago(released in '91) and he completely trashed the state of the game too. Yep, he trashed what's considered the golden age of the NBA by most. He went into this long rant about how much superior 60's ball was to 80's ball. It was unbelievable and sadly, I bet the majority of the players from his era agreed with him.

[Fatal9]

Fatal: "Jerry West is garbage"
Jerry West is one of my favorite legends :confusedshrug:

he's right. current crop of players make basketball unwatchable, not because they are less talented or skilled, but how they play ball. the face of the league right now is a guy who should be averaging 10 TOs a game if refs had the balls to call traveling on him. not sure how much longer I'll be watching NBA, right now it's only 4th quarters of select games and the playoffs. but nice to know I'm on your mind bruh.

[Abraham Lincoln]

not because they are less talented or skilled, but how they play ball. Perhaps the wisest words you have ever spoken on these boards.

:applause:

[Allstar24]

He's right.

[Showtime]

:oldlol:

It never fails amaze me just how bitter and insecure all past players tend to be about the current state of the league.
Looking at the league today, wouldn't you? Guys put in half the work and get ten times the money. Players in the 50's and 60's sometimes had off season jobs. They weren't spoiled millionaires who had all the comforts and luxury these guys have. And to top it all off, as I said, they aren't as fundamentally sound on average. I'd be pissed too if I were Jerry.

[Knoe Itawl]

:oldlol:

It never fails amaze me just how bitter and insecure all past players tend to be about the current state of the league.

WTF? Could it possibly be that with all that they've seen, they may I don't know be RIGHT? Your assumption is that all older players must just be bitter, and that's a garbage assumption. They may just be pointing out what they're observing based on years of playing (and following) the sport. Not only was West a great player, but also a great GM so I'd say he knows a thing or two about evaluating talent.

It's like are people who lament that today's hiphop doesn't compare to the 80s and 90s just "are bitter too? Despite the fact that I've seen lots of people in their teens/early twenties who feel the same way?

Sure it's possible for older people to suffer from "Why back in my day" itis, but to automatically assume that's the case and ignore any argument regardless of merit is silly.

[jody]

he's right with regard to the way the game is called. players are allowed to travel and carry today.

he's wrong about the level of play though.

[Indian guy]

Looking at the league today, wouldn't you?

What's wrong with the league today?


Guys put in half the work

And you're basing this on?


They weren't spoiled millionaires who had all the comforts and luxury these guys have.

Millionaire = spoiled?

Do you have any idea the amount of hard work and dedication it takes just to make it to the NBA?


And to top it all off, as I said, they aren't as fundamentally sound on average.

Don't need to be. They're far more athletic.

[Showtime]

And you're basing this on?

It's obvious many players get by because of their natural athleticism and not the work they put into developing their skills. That's not to say that they don't work, but that many guys coast more and you can see it when they enter the NBA.


Millionaire = spoiled?

No, idiot. Not only are the players making way more money then they should (especially compared to previous eras), but the luxury aspect of the league is night and day compared to Jerry's era. Private jets, the best hotels, luxury accommodations, shoe contracts where guys get the best shoes and gear, far superior treatment and training facilities, etc for even the worst players on the worst teams. This is not even close to what the players had in some previous eras. The players today are enjoying the things that former players helped facilitate, but didn't enjoy.


Do you have any idea the amount of hard work and dedication it takes just to make it to the NBA?

I'm talking about the entire climate that players are in today, and how much easier it is. That doesn't mean players don't work.


Don't need to be. They're far more athletic.
Not really. They just get by on their athleticism in their development.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What's wrong with the league today?


The no touch rules on the perimeter, the lack of traveling calls, the death of low post play, the horrific coverage on ABC/ESPN.

[NBASTATMAN]

He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"




Jerry just put a serious beatdown on the NBA. :oldlol:



We know Jerry West thinks Lebron can become the GOAT... Enuff for me to keep watching some games.. But I never watch the bad teams.. Too many dumbaRs players playing..

[ILLsmak]

There are a lot of lousy stiffs, but the top tier is better than it was. More athleticism = more potential. It's amazing, though, that certain players in the NBA are so athletic that they lack the ability to MAKE A JUMPER and still are able to get playing time.

Anyone in the NBA who isn't a big that can't hit an open jumper consistently should be ashamed.

The reason their development is stunted, I believe, is they are groomed to be superstars from such a young age. They don't have to work as hard for it.

A lot of people see the flair of the NBA's highlights, but all of the superstars have sound fundamentals. The only 'superstar' I can think of that lacks fundamental skill is Dwight Howard.

-Smak

[NBASTATMAN]

The no touch rules on the perimeter, the lack of traveling calls, the death of low post play, the horrific coverage on ABC/ESPN.


The Lack of guys getting called for carrying as well.. Those hesitation moves are usually a carry.. Few players have good footwork nowadays.. Guys don't have mid jumpers anymore either.. Most teams don't have enough talent to even run a fastbreak..

[BMOGEFan]

He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.

"When I played, you couldn't palm the ball, and walk all over the court"

"These days, they have the 2-step rule, which is really the 3-step rule"

"It's Entertainment these days, I understand"




Jerry just put a serious beatdown on the NBA. :oldlol:

looks to me that this is a "fierce high punch" at lebron james.

[ILLsmak]

But to be realistic, LeBron does that stuff because he can not because he needs to. You see what I mean? People act like Bron would be a horrible player if he didn't get some questionable steps. And he doesn't really get it often. It does happen, though... no denying it.

In Bron's mind I imagine he's like "There's no way they are gonna call me for traveling if I split 3 defenders and dunk." And most of the time they won't.

But he does seem bitter... especially saying that the NBA is about entertainment. As if it wasn't then? Also, he played for LAL his whole career... it's laughable to assume that he didn't get the benefit of the doubt plenty of times himself.

-Smak

[tsforthrees]

lol Jerry West should shut the **** up. old timer would be a role player at best in the league today.

[burnsy87]

WTF? Could it possibly be that with all that they've seen, they may I don't know be RIGHT? Your assumption is that all older players must just be bitter, and that's a garbage assumption. They may just be pointing out what they're observing based on years of playing (and following) the sport. Not only was West a great player, but also a great GM so I'd say he knows a thing or two about evaluating talent.

It's like are people who lament that today's hiphop doesn't compare to the 80s and 90s just "are bitter too? Despite the fact that I've seen lots of people in their teens/early twenties who feel the same way?

Sure it's possible for older people to suffer from "Why back in my day" itis, but to automatically assume that's the case and ignore any argument regardless of merit is silly.


You have to admit that it is natural for people to appreciate their generation more....It's the same reason my parents would rather listen to oldies than Mos Def.

[lilgodfather1]

He is right about the entertainment thing. He is also right that players do get away with travels. But players have always gotten away with travels. But i would bet that most players in the NBA today could in fact be solid contributors in the NBA when he played because of the single coverage and faster pace a lot of our very athletic players today could be very solid contributors in the past.

[Samurai Swoosh]

:oldlol:

It never fails to amaze me just how bitter and insecure all past players tend to be about the current state of the league.
Truth

And it happens to every generation's players. It's sad really.

[nbastatus]

lol Jerry West should shut the **** up. old timer would be a role player at best in the league today.
he would be in d-league.

[Samurai Swoosh]

who cares what the white man got to say, we black presidents now
Obama is half white for starters. And this post just screams racism. Afterall the true celebration was the fact that a president was elected without COLOR of skin being an issue. It shouldn't be celebrated BECAUSE he is half black. That undermines the very message and meaning of what Obama getting elected stood for, basically.

Yet ... many ignorant people couldn't comprehend that when Obama was elected. "YAY ... a black president". Instead of "YAY ... stubborn white / hispanic / asian people didn't vote or not vote for someone for the content of their skin, but the content of their character."

[triangleoffense]

They just interviewed him on NBATV.

I tried to get the quotes as close as possible... but he definately sound bitter. He kept complimenting Kobe, and then taking a swipes at the NBA.

the NBA is fixed garbage that protects superstars and scripts playoff matchups. West would know better than anyone.

[paintingshade]

i can't believe anyone who says the players today don't work as hard... that's a ridiculous notion. you have no idea the MASS quantity of players that WANT to be in the NBA. look at the nbdl. TONS of athleticism/raw talent out there, yet only a fraction of a percentage will get to the NBA, even on a 10 day contract. NBA players salaries are a reflection of demand/amount of discretionary spending available to the public on average. they get that kind of money because NO ONE can do their jobs but them. you wanna make that money? you think its easy? go get on an NBA team then. do it. learn the "fundamentals". you will NEVER, EVER, EVER reach that goal.

and watch some freakin' tape of 60s and 70s ball, shots and layups aren't nearly as contested as they are now.

in the end, the cream rises to the top. the NBA is the top.

[hawkfan]

There's no center who was as good as Kareem was during his prime and there never will be.

[clayton]

who cares what the white man got to say, we black presidents now
Who is clearly a puppet.

[imlmf]

old geezer's just mad cause kobe past him

i mean, don't kid yourself, some of today's player would average 50 in your day

[Showtime]

old geezer's just mad cause kobe past him

He's the reason Kobe became a laker instead of wasting his career getting beaten up by superior eastern squads ala McGrady.


i mean, don't kid yourself, some of today's player would average 50 in your day
Funny, seeing as some of the players he played with could be the best players in the league today, and they didn't put up 50ppg. Plus, it's hard to score 50 without the calls, the 3 line, and not being able to carry and travel constantly.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

old geezer's just mad cause kobe past him

i mean, don't kid yourself, some of today's player would average 50 in your day
he considers kobe his product so i can't imagine he's that mad. i'd like to see this interview tho.

[imlmf]

He's the reason Kobe became a laker instead of wasting his career getting beaten up by superior eastern squads ala McGrady.


Funny, seeing as some of the players he played with could be the best players in the league today, and they didn't put up 50ppg. Plus, it's hard to score 50 without the calls, the 3 line, and not being able to carry and travel constantly.


i overexaggerated a little but my point is,

what is it that players in the 60s 70s can do that today's players can't?

his reasoning is pretty weak, palming the ball, travelling?

if the ref start calling those, i guarantee you these travelling will disappear in two weeks

[Showtime]

what is it that players in the 60s 70s can do that today's players can't?

There's a difference between what a player can do, and what he does do.


his reasoning is pretty weak, palming the ball, travelling?

Players fall into tendencies, especially ones they have relied upon over the course of their development. Many refs totally ignore when a player's hand is on the side of the ball during the course of a dribble, when that didn't used to be allowed. Many players don't correctly use their pivot foots or jump stops because the refs don't consistently enforce travel rules. If your magical time travel device transported a modern day player back to the 60's, he would not be able to play his style of basketball without adjustment.

[Number2]

i can't believe anyone who says the players today don't work as hard... that's a ridiculous notion. you have no idea the MASS quantity of players that WANT to be in the NBA. look at the nbdl. TONS of athleticism/raw talent out there, yet only a fraction of a percentage will get to the NBA, even on a 10 day contract. NBA players salaries are a reflection of demand/amount of discretionary spending available to the public on average. they get that kind of money because NO ONE can do their jobs but them. you wanna make that money? you think its easy? go get on an NBA team then. do it. learn the "fundamentals". you will NEVER, EVER, EVER reach that goal.

I know that players work hard in today's game. But Elgin Baylor nearly averaged 40-20 while regularly flying coach to serve his country between games, missing practice and sometimes showing up just hours before game time. He did this because he *had* to. If you think Stephen Jackson shooting up cars compares to that, then I don't know what to say.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Do people not realize that players today would look a lot less quick if they had to dribble with their hand on top of the ball at all times, "patting" at it like players used to do? You can't accelerate nearly as quickly, or change directions nearly as fast, because you don't have the ball control. Try running up the block as fast as you can dribbling old school style and tell me how fast you can go. Then do a cone drill dribbling the same way. At least 80-90% of the perceived difference in speed/quickness between 60's players and today's players is a result of this.

[LAClipsFan33]

Do people not realize that players today would look a lot less quick if they had to dribble with their hand on top of the ball at all times, "patting" at it like players used to do? You can't accelerate nearly as quickly, or change directions nearly as fast, because you don't have the ball control. Try running up the block as fast as you can dribbling old school style and tell me how fast you can go. Then do a cone drill dribbling the same way. At least 80-90% of the perceived difference in speed/quickness between 60's players and today's players is a result of this.

Good point

:applause:

[imlmf]

There's a difference between what a player can do, and what he does do.



Players fall into tendencies, especially ones they have relied upon over the course of their development. Many refs totally ignore when a player's hand is on the side of the ball during the course of a dribble, when that didn't used to be allowed. Many players don't correctly use their pivot foots or jump stops because the refs don't consistently enforce travel rules. If your magical time travel device transported a modern day player back to the 60's, he would not be able to play his style of basketball without adjustment.


i know, what i was saying was it's ref's fault for not calling those violations

so it shouldn't be used as an argument to prove today's players are worse then their counter parts in the old days

if the league suddenly stricten up the rules players can adjust very quickly anyway

[EricForman]

the face of the league right now is a guy who should be averaging 10 TOs a game if refs had the balls to call traveling on him.


you talking about kobe right? :oldlol:

[Dizzle-2k7]

I have no problem with players palming the ball... only people from the 50s/60s/70s see that as carrying, but I see it as good ass handles..

the "traveling" should not be tolerated though, at all. I dont care how far along we come in athleticism, handles, defense, etc.. 3 steps should be a travel in 1950 and 2050.

But Jerry West?..just sounds bitter. :confusedshrug:

[imlmf]

Do people not realize that players today would look a lot less quick if they had to dribble with their hand on top of the ball at all times, "patting" at it like players used to do? You can't accelerate nearly as quickly, or change directions nearly as fast, because you don't have the ball control. Try running up the block as fast as you can dribbling old school style and tell me how fast you can go. Then do a cone drill dribbling the same way. At least 80-90% of the perceived difference in speed/quickness between 60's players and today's players is a result of this.

handling the ball on the sides are totally legal

if anything, it's the old schoolers not figuring out the most effective way to dribble

[OldSchoolBBall]

handling the ball on the sides are totally legal

if anything, it's the old schoolers not figuring out the most effective way to dribble

No, it's legal NOW. If players in the 60's tried to dribble like they do today, they'd be called for a carry every single time. The refs interpreted the rules very differently back then. Plus, regardless of whose "fault" it is, the fact is that they weren't allowed to dribble that way.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No, it's legal NOW. If players in the 60's tried to dribble like they do today, they'd be called for a carry every single time. The refs interpreted the rules very differently back then. Plus, regardless of whose "fault" it is, the fact is that they weren't allowed to dribble that way.
Would you seriously rather watch these athletes play with confined dribbling rules of the 50's and 60's? It'd be boring as all get out. The rules regarding handling the ball have rightfully changed over the years.

BTW, I hope you're considering Jordan in this discussion because Jordan is among the generation of prototypes for the further evolution of ball handling.

[DCL]

palming and 2 and half stepping - it's the evolution of a fast paced game. everyone pushes to the limits for that extra edge. but just because a player palms or takes half an extra step, i don't know if that means he's considered "lousy" otherwise jordan was one lousy ass player.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Palming is dribbling the ball when your hand rotates from UNDER the ball and your hand flips 180 to bounce the ball. THATS palming. I don't think people are truly understanding what palming is here. Your hand can dribble a ball off the side of the ball.

LMAO @ anyone who considers the way they dribbled in the 50's (IE starring down and tapping the ball repeatedly) to be a truer / better version of dribbling.

Then really LMAO @ OldSchoolBball mentioning this as if his favorite player of all time hadn't already been playing with the evolution of ball handling in his own very game, cause he did.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Would you seriously rather watch these athletes play with confined dribbling rules of the 50's and 60's? It'd be boring as all get out. The rules regarding handling the ball have rightfully changed over the years.

BTW, I hope you're considering Jordan in this discussion because Jordan is among the generation of prototypes for the further evolution of ball handling.

I'm not saying I would prefer it that way, just saying that you need to keep that in mind when comparing the speed/quickness/agility of players back then and now. No way could players today move like they do if they had to dribble like that. And players back then would be much faster/quicker if they were allowed to.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Again, I was just saying you have to keep that in mind. It was in response to comments like "players back then were so slow" etc. Well, ballhandling rules/styles were a big reason why.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I'm not saying I would prefer it that way, just saying that you need to keep that in mind when comparing the speed/quickness/agility of players back then and now. No way could players today move like they do if they had to dribble like that. And players back then would be much faster/quicker if they were allowed to.
But it's all relative. They DIDN'T move like that because handling the ball the way they do now wasn't "legal" ... but because they never thought to and/or created that fashion of handling the ball. It came generations down the line.

Should all players shoot granny style from the free throw line? Cause that's how they did it originally.

:oldlol:

The game evolves as its players do. This was an example of Jerry West talking out of his ass.

Allen Iverson is faster than Jerry West or any 50's / 60's era guard, period. Whether thats dribbling in a normal manner up the court akin to the old fashion stare down tap the ball quickly with fingertips, or using his "palming handles" in half court situations.

:rolleyes:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Again, I was just saying you have to keep that in mind. It was in response to comments like "players back then were so slow" etc. Well, ballhandling rules/styles were a big reason why.
No, I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts they are simply faster athletes as well. LOL @ you acting like there hasn't been an evolution in player's speed, quickness, leaping ability over the course of time.

[OldSchoolBBall]

But it's all relative. They DIDN'T move like that because handling the ball the way they do now wasn't "legal" ... but because they never thought to and/or created that fashion of handling the ball. It came generations down the line.

Should all players shoot granny style from the free throw line? Cause that's how they did it originally.

:oldlol:

The game evolves as its players do. This was an example of Jerry West talking out of his ass.

Allen Iverson is faster than Jerry West or any 50's / 60's era guard, period. Whether thats dribbling in a normal manner up the court akin to the old fashion stare down tap the ball quickly with fingertips, or using his "palming handles" in half court situations.

:rolleyes:

I'm not advocating old school type dribbling etc. You're misunderstanding me. I'm advocating keeping context in mind when discussing the physical abilities (or perceived physical abilities) of players. And I don't think Iverson is much faster than, say, Tiny Archibald if they were forced to handle the ball the same way. faster maybe, yes, but not a night and day difference like how it looks when you compare 2001 AI to 1970's Tiny.

[OldSchoolBBall]

No, I'd be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts they are simply faster athletes as well. LOL @ you acting like there hasn't been an evolution in player's speed, quickness, leaping ability over the course of time.

There has been (it's not "evolution", but rather training methods as well as a larger talent pool being drawn from, however), but it's not as large as it SEEMS when you just look at footage of past players vs. players today. Assuming the same rule-sets, the difference would be incremental, not revolutionary. The difference would exist, though, yes. Just not to the extent we perceive it today.

[Brunch@Five]

what gets me most is the lack of traveling calls. Guys regularly take 3+ steps, even in half-court set play

[Fatal9]

you can still notice a big difference in speed/quickness by watching players defend, move off the ball or running on the fast break. the drives probably are slower due to the dribbling method but there is still a clear difference in the athleticism of the average player.

[Samurai Swoosh]

what gets me most is the lack of traveling calls. Guys regularly take 3+ steps, even in half-court set play
Traveling is the only violation in the NBA game that needs to be severely tightened.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I'm not advocating old school type dribbling etc. You're misunderstanding me. I'm advocating keeping context in mind when discussing the physical abilities (or perceived physical abilities) of players. And I don't think Iverson is much faster than, say, Tiny Archibald if they were forced to handle the ball the same way. faster maybe, yes, but not a night and day difference like how it looks when you compare 2001 AI to 1970's Tiny.
I don't think its night and day, either. And we happen to be comparing Archibald who was probably a generation or two faster than his counterparts. But comparing the AVERAGE player. From an athleticism perspective it isn't even close, Loki.

Even you have to acknowledge that.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I don't think its night and day, either. And we happen to be comparing Archibald who was probably a generation or two faster than his counterparts. But comparing the AVERAGE player. From an athleticism perspective it isn't even close, Loki.

Even you have to acknowledge that.

You picked AI, who was easily the quickest player of his generation, so I picked Tiny. I didn't think it an unfair comparison.

[Samurai Swoosh]

You picked AI, who was easily the quickest player of his generation, so I picked Tiny. I didn't think it an unfair comparison.
Ok ... and the average player comparison?

[spree43]

Should be compare wilt to dwight, the most athletic Cs, I think Wilt might win in the speed department, size and strength departments

[Samurai Swoosh]

Should be compare wilt to dwight, the most athletic Cs, I think Wilt might win in the speed department, size and strength departments
I don't ...

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ok ... and the average player comparison?

I think it would be the same, really. Not that they would be equally as fast, but that the gap would be roughly what it would be between AI/Tiny under equal rules.

I just think that ballhandling is responsible for the majority (though not all) of the perceived difference in speed/agility/fluidity between old school and modern players.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I think it would be the same, really. Not that they would be equally as fast, but that the gap would be roughly what it would be between AI/Tiny under equal rules.

I just think that ballhandling is responsible for the majority (though not all) of the perceived difference in speed/agility/fluidity between old school and modern players.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/lebronwtf.gif

[spree43]

In 1968 Jim Hines ran a 9.95 100 meters

Pre Bolt this only improved 0.2 seconds, the change in standards of training didnt improve times too much, he would be 2m metres behind the current american champions, and would have been the 5th best time in the last olympic final

[Samurai Swoosh]

In 1968 Jim Hines ran a 9.95 100 meters

Pre Bolt this only improved 0.2 seconds, the change in standards of training didnt improve times too much, he would be 2m metres behind the current american champions, and would have been the 5th best time in the last olympic final
It would've been 5th best, exactly. And Jim Hines I'm presuming was the fastest guy in his day? And .2 seconds is alot in competition like that ... no?

[spree43]

It would've been 5th best, exactly. And Jim Hines I'm presuming was the fastest guy in his day? And .2 seconds is alot in competition like that ... no?
Thats the same time Asafa Powell ran and he was widely considered the 2nd/3rd fastest before that race

0.2 of a second isnt much over a 10 second race, not enough to notice on a basketball court, or a sprint the length of a court

[Samurai Swoosh]

Thats the same time Asafa Powell ran and he was widely considered the 2nd/3rd fastest before that race

0.2 of a second isnt much over a 10 second race, not enough to notice on a basketball court, or a sprint the length of a court
We're comparing a track athlete to a basketball one, now? And the slew of differences they both entail?

[spree43]

We're comparing a track athlete to a basketball one, now? And the slew of differences they both entail?
No, I'm saying its an example of an athleticism based sport from the 60's that hasnt shown too much of an improvement due to the factors you are suggesting make current basketballers more athletic. It suggests that athletes today may only be slightly faster due to advances in diet/training etc.

People act as if players back then would run a 5.5 40 yards, when really the average of the top players may have been similar to current NBA players

I say top players, because I'd assume the bottom end may have been a little less athletic, but I'd say the top 50-100 players would only see a small increase

[Abraham Lincoln]

But it's all relative. They DIDN'T move like that because handling the ball the way they do now wasn't "legal" ... but because they never thought to and/or created that fashion of handling the ball. It came generations down the line.

Should all players shoot granny style from the free throw line? Cause that's how they did it originally.

:oldlol:

The game evolves as its players do. This was an example of Jerry West talking out of his ass.

Allen Iverson is faster than Jerry West or any 50's / 60's era guard, period. Whether thats dribbling in a normal manner up the court akin to the old fashion stare down tap the ball quickly with fingertips, or using his "palming handles" in half court situations.

:rolleyes:

As he was also faster than any 00's era guard, period.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Should be compare wilt to dwight, the most athletic Cs, I think Wilt might win in the speed department, size and strength departmentsI don't ...


Good God. :roll:

[Abraham Lincoln]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/MitchMatch/lebronwtf.gif
He is indeed correct. The key word is perception. Imagine the 1960's legends playing on high definition television with baggy uniforms, heavily padded protection under jersey's & shorts, modern era shoes, and the freedom to handle the ball in a differing manner. Even Jordan was able to maintain his ability to stop on a dime from his prime years after baseball due to the shoe technology (carbon fiber plate) of the 1995 XI's.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Good God. :roll:
Everything regarding Wilt Chamberlain is overrated and blown out of proportion. All the way down to the number of women he slept with ... my god what a clown.

[Samurai Swoosh]

He is indeed correct. The key word is perception. Imagine the 1960's legends playing on high definition television with baggy uniforms, heavily padded protection under jersey's & shorts, modern era shoes, and the freedom to handle the ball in a differing manner. Even Jordan was able to maintain his ability to stop on a dime from his prime years after baseball due to the shoe technology (carbon fiber plate) of the 1995 XI's.
Oh so Jordan's ability to stop on a dime came purely from his shoes?

uhhh ok

[Abraham Lincoln]

No but it helped, talking from the 1995-1998 period.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Everything regarding Wilt Chamberlain is overrated and blown out of proportion. All the way down to the number of women he slept with ... my god what a clown.
Yet the only aspect Howard can be declared his superior in is foul shooting.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yet the only aspect Howard can be declared his superior in is foul shooting.
D12 looks to be everybit the athlete Wilt was ... but I can be honest about not being on Wilt's shnuts, so I'm biased. I don't find him impressive in the least.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No but it helped, talking from the 1995-1998 period.
Not really ... not enough to make that statement.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not really ... not enough to make that statement.

Tinker Hatfield had said the XI's "made him faster."

[Samurai Swoosh]

Tinker Hatfield had said the XI's "made him faster."
And you believe Tinker? ... cause he designed the shoes. Of course he would say something like that. Do you honestly believe a pair of shoes made him faster? I mean they sold the public on making them think they make you "jump higher"? C'mon ... sure Nike has great technology in performance capabilities of their products, but they don't make you a better athlete given your physical capabilities. Get real, dude. I doubt it actually made him faster than the 8's, 9's, or 10's. In fact the 11's were a rework of the 10's. Aesthetic adjustments, the technology in the 11's wasn't significantly advanced compared to the year priors.

[spree43]

I also here about the size/musclarity of players today compared to the old days

I put it to you that Oscar Robertson was a similar build to Dwyane Wade, and probably similarily athletic. A player that most people consider one of the most impressive physical specimens in the league today

Compare Elgin Baylors build to Kobe's, Baylor is much bigger

The difference between the times was nowhere near as great as we are lead to believe

[Abraham Lincoln]

The checkered carbon fiber plate indeed kept the shoe from contorting in excess. Note the shiny patent leather was very robust & lightweight at the same time. In the early 90's his shoes would be completely destroyed after almost every single game.

[Abraham Lincoln]

I also here about the size/musclarity of players today compared to the old days

I put it to you that Oscar Robertson was a similar build to Dwyane Wade, and probably similarily athletic. A player that most people consider one of the most impressive physical specimens in the league today

Compare Elgin Baylors build to Kobe's, Baylor is much bigger

The difference between the times was nowhere near as great as we are lead to believe

:applause:

[Samurai Swoosh]

Tinker Hatfield had said the XI's "made him faster."
And don't get out of your element when talking to me about shoes. The carbon fiber plating ran along the fore foot of the XI. This material has actually been known to create greater foot fatigue. And is hardly the best Nike tech known in basketball shoes made for guards. It's meant for the shoe to retain its shape after being bent. The best Nike tech for guards in basketball is Nike Zoom. It didn't help MJ to the point of making him faster. Just better support for his feet. It didn't give him rocket jets in his feet.

[Samurai Swoosh]

In the early 90's his shoes would be completely destroyed after almost every single game.
No they weren't ... you're making things up now.

:oldlol:

And I know this for a fact.

[Abraham Lincoln]

It didn't help MJ to the point of making him faster. Just better support for his feet.

Mistake the proper word is actually quicker.


It didn't give him rocket jets in his feet.
I never said this. :lol


The carbon fiber plating ran along the fore foot of the XI.

No, but rather the entire sole of the shoe.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No, but rather the entire sole of the shoe.
They certainly didn't make him stop on a dime faster. The XI is known to have poor traction. Even worse than its predecessors in some cases. And as I said, carbon fiber plating fatigues the foot quicker.

And no a pair of shoes didn't make MJ quicker. You have no way to back up your claim beyond a ridiculous statement made by the shoe's very designer.

Link to where he stated as such ...

[Abraham Lincoln]

No they weren't ... you're making things up now.

:oldlol:

And I know this for a fact.

"Before the XI's Michael's shoes couldn't last more than a game."

"We would take high speed footage of Michael and slow it down. It was really the first time I looked at the degree to which Michael's shoe would deform as he moved on the court. With all that mass moving around, and Michael being able to change direction so quickly, he would torture his shoes. His feet were incredibly messed up, just destroyed because of the force."

[spree43]

Is the topic

Jerry West, "There are a lot of lousy shoes in the league today"

Lets get back on topic

[Samurai Swoosh]

"Before the XI's Michael's shoes couldn't last more than a game."

"We would take high speed footage of Michael and slow it down. It was really the first time I looked at the degree to which Michael's shoe would deform as he moved on the court. With all that mass moving around, and Michael being able to change direction so quickly, he would torture his shoes. His feet were incredibly messed up, just destroyed because of the force."
His feet ... and I've seen plenty of game worn Jordans from Mike. None were destroyed.

[Abraham Lincoln]

They certainly didn't make him stop on a dime faster. The XI is known to have poor traction. Even worse than its predecessors in some cases. And as I said, carbon fiber plating fatigues the foot quicker.

And no a pair of shoes didn't make MJ quicker.

Have you been playing on squeaky clean NBA Hardwood? I don't mean they made literally made him quicker, but rather maximized his ability in hard cuts and jabs more than the prior shoes did.

[spree43]

Either way the shoes today are better than the original converse all-stars, can that be agreed upon? Who cares whether the 10's were better than the 11's?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Have you been playing on squeaky clean NBA Hardwood? I don't mean they made literally made him quicker, but rather maximized his ability in hard cuts and jabs more than the prior shoes did.
Of course thats the evolution of shoe technology. Maximized not literally making him do something quicker or faster.

Squeky clean hardwood is squeky clean hardwood ... whether its on an NBA court or wherever

[Abraham Lincoln]

His feet ... and I've seen plenty of game worn Jordans from Mike. None were destroyed.Not the case with every single shoe every single night, but they would indeed get "blown out" over the course of a game, reducing as the shoe tech increased year by year.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Of course thats the evolution of shoe technology. Maximized not literally making him do something quicker or faster.


Indeed.

I did not mean literally. That would be the magic shoe. :lol

[Samurai Swoosh]

Either way the shoes today are better than the original converse all-stars, can that be agreed upon? Who cares whether the 10's were better than the 11's?
Dude right now this is an a / b conversation ....

Is thats the point he was getting to he should've stated that from the word go, instead of saying a specific model of Jordan designed by Tinker literally made him faster / quicker / stop on a dime insinuating he wouldn't have been able to do the things he did without these advancements in shoe technology with the AJ model 11.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Either way the shoes today are better than the original converse all-stars, can that be agreed upon?
Of course.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Dude right now this is an a / b conversation ....

Is thats the point he was getting to he should've stated that from the word go, instead of saying a specific model of Jordan designed by Tinker literally made him faster / quicker / stop on a dime insinuating he wouldn't have been able to do the things he did without these advancements in shoe technology with the AJ model 11.

Imagine a peaked Jordan with the advanced shoe technology.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Imagine a peaked Jordan with the advanced shoe technology.
Jordan had fantastic technology in his time supporting his feet. His shoe technology isn't far from what it is now, honestly. So its all relative. Same goes for any player in his time. They were wearing top of the line stuff. So footwear is no excuse.

[spree43]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/1027/life_lakers17_576.jpg

Imagine the strain on Lebrons feet wearing these

[Abraham Lincoln]

Jordan had fantastic technology in his time supporting his feet. His shoe technology isn't far from what it is now, honestly. So its all relative. Same goes for any player in his time. They were wearing top of the line stuff. So footwear is no excuse.

Not an excuse but it indeed helped as mentioned in the late 90's.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Not an excuse but it indeed helped as mentioned in the late 90's.
Footwear is relative. Athletes are always wearing the best of their generations technologies.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Yes they are indeed. :cheers:

[Yuki Nagato]

People only care about fool themselves into thinking they are living the best period of history in all aspects.

[phoenix18]

People only care about fool themselves into thinking they are living the best period of history in all aspects.
The media hype around Kobe is ridiculous. On Sunday, I basically heard a quote from Brian Shaw saying that Kobe is the toughest player he's ever seen. I turned off the TV.

[Rambis]

The media hype around Kobe is ridiculous. On Sunday, I basically heard a quote from Brian Shaw saying that Kobe is the toughest player he's ever seen. I turned off the TV.

Well, you "BASICALLY heard" :rolleyes: an exaggeration/hyperbole that was meant to compliment a player who refuses to let an injury make him sit.

You act like Kobe isn't tough, where his clutchness indicates he is mentally tough and his not sitting even though he is injured shows his physical toughness. Are you REALLY saying that Kobe isn't tough?

....

Cause if so, you're just a hater. Cause I wanna hear your criteria for toughness now.

[LA_Showtime]

The media hype around Kobe is ridiculous. On Sunday, I basically heard a quote from Brian Shaw saying that Kobe is the toughest player he's ever seen. I turned off the TV.

Is that really more ridiculous then, "Kobe is hands down the most skilled player I've ever seen." <--- or whatever your thread title was.

[Rambis]

People only care about fool themselves into thinking they are living the best period of history in all aspects.

So West is fooling himself? Really? How do you know?

If you saw things with your own eyes, don't you think you'd have a better basis of comparison than someone like you who hasn't? It's easy to make smug assumptions. Recall perhaps that Jerry West was a HOF GM as well, someone who judged talent through DECADES.

I'd figure he'd be able to judge it better than you, regardless of the supposed bias he has. As many have said he does have horses in this race -- he's drafted and developed MANY championship players, plus he has the respect of many players who wanted to come to the Lakers because of what he'd built. Did superstars go to the Clippers? No... so it's not just about LA.

I think it's pretty clear that players like Shaq are indicative of what he's talking about, though he would never say it. It's clear Kobe was his boy because of the work ethic and attitude he has and shares with West. Shaq was content to rest with his incredible God-given athleticism. If you put Kobe's heart in Shaq's body, or for you haters, MJ's heart there... you simply have the greatest player ever. Instead, one of the top 15.

There is no doubt that training, technology, diet, medicine, etc etc make players better physically than they were in previous eras. But players are rewarded too early with huge salaries that take away their drive. One way this has an effect is that passing and shooting are so bad in the NBA today, and that is the reason why euro's were kicking ass on our 2nd tier stars in the Olympics.

The stars today are off the charts athletically, and so would dominate past players, but the AVERAGE player would be schooled because they don't have the passing shooting or mental aspect of the game, and I use the euro game beating 2nd tier stars regularly in international play to back that claim. The European players play more like past NBAers and their games, though not as physically gifted DEFINTELY challenged anyone in the game today other than the very top tier.

That's just my opinion, but it's an informed one. I've watched the game develop from a team game to ISO every time down the court. That means LeBron is great and whomever else around isn't really that important or that good. Besides the fact that it's really pretty boring to watch. I certainly hate when Kobe does it. I'm getting off the argument a little, but it also means that people specialize now and don't have to be good at offense, for example, and are thus not as good all around players as they should be, because they don't have to be. You want to really talk about human nature -- people only work as hard as they have to -- in 99% of people. You put 10 mill in the bank, you gonna spend an extra 3 hours AFTER PRACTICE a day practicing shooting? especially if you know LeBron is going to be the one taking the shots? I don't think so.

[Abraham Lincoln]

^ I think you misunderstood his post. It seemed to be properly directed towards the "newer is always better" fans.

[Abraham Lincoln]

D12 looks to be everybit the athlete Wilt was ... but I can be honest about not being on Wilt's shnuts, so I'm biased. I don't find him impressive in the least.
Besides leaping ability, Howard does not come close to Chamberlain in any physical or athletic attribute.

[Rambis]

^ I think you misunderstood his post. It seemed to be properly directed towards the "newer is always better" fans.

Covered both angles. =)

BTW, I don't disagree about people always thinking the past was better, but in the case of Jerry West, I strongly disagree that he has no basis for his statement.

[kumquat]

smush parker>>jerry west

[Rambis]

smush parker>>jerry west

:banghead:

yeah lets review:

HOF player, the Logo, scoring champion, NBA champion << scrub

children never learn...

[Anton Chigurh]

:banghead:

yeah lets review:

HOF player, the Logo, scoring champion, NBA champion << scrub

children never learn...

im pretty sure he's joking :rolleyes:

[Rameek]

I think the NBA changed the rules of play to make it more popular. Basketball historically wasnt that popular of a sport now its about entertainment and watching "Jordanesque player take over a game". The basketball IQ has been replaced with athleticism. The game has been made EASIER and more appealing to the masses.

But in all sports music or with anything as things change (doesnt mean evolve) people always look at the past with nostalgia and reverence.

[SRZ66]

cue globetrotter music and a bunch of white guys making crisp bounce passes and forming a layup line. lol, 5% of the players in the 60's would be able to play today, and thats being generous.

[DukeDelonte13]

cue globetrotter music and a bunch of white guys making crisp bounce passes and forming a layup line. lol, 5% of the players in the 60's would be able to play today, and thats being generous.


Agreed. Olde Tyme BBall gets wayyyy too much credence.

[Rambis]

cue globetrotter music and a bunch of white guys making crisp bounce passes and forming a layup line. lol, 5% of the players in the 60's would be able to play today, and thats being generous.

ooh sarcasm tinged with racism... gotta love it. Yeah, we get your point, white people aren't very athletic. :rolleyes:

In my post, I did say that "superior athleticism surpasses" the intangibles and the basics of the game, the rules changes have supported pure athleticism over skills acquired through practice. How many times have people lamented players not knowing how to guard the pick and roll, how to properly guard the post, how to give good entry passes.

All you have to do is look at the success over a decade of the San Antonio Spurs with their moderately athletically gifted superstar (in NBA terrms) to see the lengths that solid fundamentals will take you.

so instead cue the mother****in spurs with their fundamentals: bounce passes, bank shots, and defensive footwork (all "old school fundamentals")

and then we're talking

yeah, I guess it's reasonable to assume that if we took a player from the 60's (when they didnt lift weights at all) and put them against the players now they would lose (if those players never got to work on their strength and speed, which seems unreasonable). You have to judge how people played against the people put in front of them. West played against many dominant players such as Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Jerry Lucas, Sam Jones, etc.. If you're gonna tell me that Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, etc. aren't great because of their competition, than maybe you have an argument. Or those are the 5% you are discussing.

I'm confused. You saying Jerry West wouldn't have been a great player now? If so, why?

Otherwise, the relevance of your statement is minimal. West is talking about skills. Some people point to the looseness of the rules changes as a reason for a diminishment of those skills in players today. Okay, that's reasonable, though I don't agree that people could stop traveling or palming in two weeks if the rules changed (and be the same players).

You basically point to the lack of athleticism of the era as a reason to refute his statement. Just think if those players had access to the same training techniques themselves, actually West talked about it on the radio here in LA saying its impossible to know the difference it would make, but that it was heart that made a true champion. It's kind of a pointless argument. Unless you're saying West would be a marginal player today. Would Wilt, Russell, and Oscar be non-competitive as well? Interesting.

Tons of great athletes in the NBA... the best in the world. Are they better basketball players? than who? the 50's and 60's probably, if only cause the current guys would athletically destroy them. The 70 perhaps. The 80's, HELL NO. Somewhere athleticism became the popular thing, but it is rarely the thing that determines the championship, or who is truly great.

[liljohnnywall]

yeah like Jerry West really played in the toughest era in basketball.

[Rambis]

smush parker>>jerry west


im pretty sure he's joking :rolleyes:

Hard to tell. If it was, then *retracted*, but honestly don't think it was. Racists say dumb **** on both sides of the color line. Case in point...


cue globetrotter music and a bunch of white guys making crisp bounce passes and forming a layup line. lol, 5% of the players in the 60's would be able to play today, and thats being generous.

Note the "bunch of white guys." Is that relevant or pertinent at all the to the discussion? The 60's was the era of Wilt and Russell, that's who West competed against. Of course in the ABA there was Connie Hawkins, Mel Daniels, Artis Gilmore, etc, etc, there were plenty of black athletes playing in that era. So the black athletes were the 5% SR was talking about?

Interesting.

As for this:


yeah like Jerry West really played in the toughest era in basketball.

Maybe not the toughest era, but perhaps the toughest/best teams of all time:

1968-69 NBA Boston Celtics* 48 34 .585 4 5.35 Won Finals Russell (48-34)
1967-68 NBA Boston Celtics* 54 28 .659 2 3.87 Won Finals Russell (54-28)
1966-67 NBA Boston Celtics* 60 21 .741 2 7.24 Lost Eastern Division Finals Russell (60-21)
1965-66 NBA Boston Celtics* 54 26 .675 2 4.34 Won Finals Auerbach (54-26)
1964-65 NBA Boston Celtics* 62 18 .775 1 7.47 Won Finals Auerbach (62-18)
1963-64 NBA Boston Celtics* 59 21 .738 1 6.93 Won Finals Auerbach (59-21)
1962-63 NBA Boston Celtics* 58 22 .725 1 6.38 Won Finals Auerbach (58-22)
1961-62 NBA Boston Celtics* 60 20 .750 1 8.25 Won Finals Auerbach (60-20)
1960-61 NBA Boston Celtics* 57 22 .722 1 4.93 Won Finals Auerbach (57-22)
1959-60 NBA Boston Celtics* 59 16 .787 1 7.62 Won Finals Auerbach (59-16)
1958-59 NBA Boston Celtics* 52 20 .722 1 5.84 Won Finals Auerbach (52-20)

[The_Yearning]

like the great Hatake Kakashi said, the new generation will always surpass previous generation.

[Kblaze8855]

People really need to stop pretending evolution is generally a 30 year process. The difference between a good athlete in 1965 and 2005 I just dont buy being that major. The difference is mostly how those athletes are prepared to play their sport, how they are protected, and how the style of game allows them to play.

I simply do not buy that a guy like Jason Richardson who has no great skills but shooting and dunking looks terribly athletic in the 60s. With nobody...NOBODy...throwing hi ma lob? If a windmill gets you benched? ****...who would do one anyway? The world wasnt hyping up such things. Of what benefit is a harder dunk when the fans only care who wins? No sportscenter. 99% of the population wont know you did anything the newspaper doesnt say. Whats the reason for a windmill? Make your opponent look bad and piss off your coach? Jrich would look athletic on blocks and maybe 2-3 drives a game people now would say he couldnt do vs good athletes.

And really...you readh orror stories of guys having to hire their own trainers. some guys literally bringing their mothers on road trips since trainers were for home games only(they stayed near the arena and were doctors in the area). Having to pay for your own operation leading guys to get budget doctors and not the best? As recently as the 80s guys missed nearly 2 years with injuries that you return from in 9 months these days. Barnard King missed half of one season and all of the next with an injury Tony allen was working out 5 months after. In the 60s? Imagine how many minor injuries are season changing or career ending back then. Talk about guys being unable to play?

You think Greg Oden would be even thinking about returning if this were 1961? He might not be back from his pre rookie season injury yet....

There are so many changes...and most of them are in favor of our players and their ability to showcase their talent. Wilt, russell, Cousy, West, and maybe Oscar are the only 60s players I buy most of ISH seeing more than 5 minutes of. I get every clip that hits the internet or DVD on everyone I can and ive not seen 10 minutes of Elgin Baylor outside a couple full games really late in his career and an all star game.

If people in 40 years see the highlights of a Blazers/minnesota game what are they gonna see to assume our players are great athletes? Al jefferson do a post move, Kevin Love throw an outlet pass, Brandon roy make a stepback jumper and see the final score?

We have access to unlimited footage of our players and you still only get like 5-6 really impressive plays a night from a league with 30 teams getting every moment of every play filmed from 10 angles. But we can judge 40 years ago on **** that exists only in memory? And say the people who remember it are idiots for drawing a conclusion we dont like...based on the tiny bit of information we have?

I just dont think most are fair to those guys. Everything is in our eras favor when it comes to looking impressive. Style of game, footage, and injury issues. I just dont think its fair to judge an era on 4 minutes of footage and I dont think we would find it right on ISH in 2034 when kids are saying Duncans 4 inch off the ground jump hooks would get blocked in their day and an unathletic white boy like Nash would be garbage..

[Lakas Fan Yo]

They had to change the Olympics rules to allow Team USA to walk, carry, and palm the ball just so they could win again. The NBA changed travel rules just so played like LeBron could still play.

This is not news. It's been known for a while that most players today in the NBA do not even have basic basketball skills. It's just a show and not a real competition. Ask anyone with basketball knowledge and they know that.

[Alhazred]

Well said KBlaze.

[Rambis]

Well said KBlaze.

yeah gotta co-sign that for sure.

good job saying what i've been trying to say, but much better than i ever could.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

People really need to stop pretending evolution is generally a 30 year process. The difference between a good athlete in 1965 and 2005 I just dont buy being that major. The difference is mostly how those athletes are prepared to play their sport, how they are protected, and how the style of game allows them to play.

I simply do not buy that a guy like Jason Richardson who has no great skills but shooting and dunking looks terribly athletic in the 60s. With nobody...NOBODy...throwing hi ma lob? If a windmill gets you benched? ****...who would do one anyway? The world wasnt hyping up such things. Of what benefit is a harder dunk when the fans only care who wins? No sportscenter. 99% of the population wont know you did anything the newspaper doesnt say. Whats the reason for a windmill? Make your opponent look bad and piss off your coach? Jrich would look athletic on blocks and maybe 2-3 drives a game people now would say he couldnt do vs good athletes.

And really...you readh orror stories of guys having to hire their own trainers. some guys literally bringing their mothers on road trips since trainers were for home games only(they stayed near the arena and were doctors in the area). Having to pay for your own operation leading guys to get budget doctors and not the best? As recently as the 80s guys missed nearly 2 years with injuries that you return from in 9 months these days. Barnard King missed half of one season and all of the next with an injury Tony allen was working out 5 months after. In the 60s? Imagine how many minor injuries are season changing or career ending back then. Talk about guys being unable to play?

You think Greg Oden would be even thinking about returning if this were 1961? He might not be back from his pre rookie season injury yet....

There are so many changes...and most of them are in favor of our players and their ability to showcase their talent. Wilt, russell, Cousy, West, and maybe Oscar are the only 60s players I buy most of ISH seeing more than 5 minutes of. I get every clip that hits the internet or DVD on everyone I can and ive not seen 10 minutes of Elgin Baylor outside a couple full games really late in his career and an all star game.

If people in 40 years see the highlights of a Blazers/minnesota game what are they gonna see to assume our players are great athletes? Al jefferson do a post move, Kevin Love throw an outlet pass, Brandon roy make a stepback jumper and see the final score?

We have access to unlimited footage of our players and you still only get like 5-6 really impressive plays a night from a league with 30 teams getting every moment of every play filmed from 10 angles. But we can judge 40 years ago on **** that exists only in memory? And say the people who remember it are idiots for drawing a conclusion we dont like...based on the tiny bit of information we have?

I just dont think most are fair to those guys. Everything is in our eras favor when it comes to looking impressive. Style of game, footage, and injury issues. I just dont think its fair to judge an era on 4 minutes of footage and I dont think we would find it right on ISH in 2034 when kids are saying Duncans 4 inch off the ground jump hooks would get blocked in their day and an unathletic white boy like Nash would be garbage..
I agree with everything you said, and I think a point that people don't understand is that its not that the people are now more athletic or anything, it is because the movement of players evolves and becomes more efficient. The way an athlete learns is by observing movement and then imitating it. This is why jordan seemed like this super athletic guy when he first broke in is because he took all the movements from the most athletic players and put them together into his own game. This is also why after jordan there was a boom of athletic wing finishers like jordan, because he provided the prototype which future players could observe and copy the movements of. This is also why there are all these quick players now. First there was Tiny, then there was Isiah, then Timmy H then AI etc... They provided the framework for super fast players and now every quick player copies the movements and makes them their own. This is how sports evolve, through observation, imitation and intuition.

Simply put, back then Cousy couldn't do razor sharp, complex dribbling moves the guards of today do because the movements didn't exist back then.

[MaxFly]

He goes on to say many of the players in the NBA today couldn't play in the league when he played.


This is an interesting supposition... What percentage of today's players would you guys say would not have been able to adjust their game and play in the 60s.

[Jasper]

At times all I can do is just smile at the posts about yester-year.

You guys that are in your late teens , early twenties , be thankful you are watching , Kobe , Bron , KG , Dirk and others.

My memory I have West , Wilt , Big O , Hondo and Clyde to name a few.
believe me they are all great memories.

Jerry West can only make comments more less I can understand while others never saw the league back then.

But we all can bank on players , and see other players in the future that have similar games like past players.

One guy that really I was shocked made such a great transistion to pro ball is D-Will ... he is really special.
But another guy we are going to see some real concrete playing from is T-Evans. (And yes he is a PG , and yes he is ONLY 20) :oldlol: