Steve Nash Is The Most Overrated NBA Player Ever!!!

[KB24Fan]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...

[Rekindled]

:hammerhead:

[EricForman]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...


what an idiot. rehasing the same things said in what, 2005?

every year, Nash proves more and more he's actually an all time great.

and he's had more than one good playoff run. 06 and 07 are pretty good too.

[Black Joker]

what an idiot. rehasing the same things said in what, 2005?

every year, Nash proves more and more he's actually an all time great.

and he's had more than one good playoff run. 06 and 07 are pretty good too.
and

He's the most ridiculous man in the world

[MK2V1GP]

This board is really getting depressing. Used to be there was a lot more good threads than bad, pointless, stupid threads. But these days, good threads are like finding a needle in a haystack and bad threads come by the dozens.

[KB24Fan]

what an idiot. rehasing the same things said in what, 2005?

every year, Nash proves more and more he's actually an all time great.

and he's had more than one good playoff run. 06 and 07 are pretty good too.
do you view colt brennan the same as Tim Tebow... i know basketball forum but what other way can you look at it....All-time great get the phuck out of here... i been watching steve nash since he was in Dallas He doesn't play a lick of defense, and in Dallas his numbers where pedestrian, solid at best...Nowhere near Jason Kidd Is His Prime, Isiah,Penny Hardaway,2 many 2 name...Hell When Chris Paul reaches his prime he'll truly be considered an all-time great

[KAJ=GOAT]

This much is true.

Compare him to the great point guards in history,

Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, etc,

and he simply does not match up in any way, shape or form.

The absolute worst of multiple winning MVPs.

Neither was even deserved.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Then why is it that Chris Duhon played in the same system and averaged just over half as many assists and wasn't able to score as well? And you can make the case that anyone's a product of their system - having Stojakovic on the wing to catch and shoot, West to pick and pop, and Chandler to catch lobs didn't exactly hurt Chris Paul's numbers, but he's still far from just a product of a system. Hell, Kobe benefited from all the spacing the triangle gives him, but it's not like he'd suck if he played in a pick and roll oriented offense. Coaches acquire players who will thrive in their systems, and if there was someone better than Nash for running Pheonix's offense, they'd trade Nash and acquire them just like they did when Marbury was running the team.

[catch24]

I see why our fan base is hated on by most. Idiots.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I see why our fan base is hated on by most. Idiots.


Cut it out, hes a two time MVP, and nobody can explain why.

Thats some serious overrating.

Shaq isn't even a two time MVP and his impact far surpasses that of Steve "No D" Nash.

[spree43]

Why are you venting on Nashy? Did he just cut you off in traffic or something?

A system player doesn't shoot those %s and make those assists unless he is great himself. He was top 2-3 for MVP in both the years he won it, there is no argueing that if you are of sound mind and look at it without bias. Whether it was he or one of the others that got it was a matter of opinion, and they majority of the EXPERTS (who watched most of the games that year and have probably been following basketball for a while) were of the opinion that he was most deserving ... so get off Nash's back about the MVPs

1 MVP pretty much makes you a lock for HOF, so I think he's safe to make that as well

If the overwelming majority of true basketball experts and tv analysts who really know basketball say he is great, and you don't, then you are probably missing something and you need to re-evaluate your point of view

[quasimoto]

I can't understand why people think it isn't right that Nash has 2 MVP's while O'Neal, Kobe and so on have only 1. The MVP isn't a career reward, it's simply about being the best player on the best team of the season. If someone happens to play in an era that's stuffed with legends then that sucks for him. Nash deserved those MVP's rightfully.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who isn't a system player? There isn't a guy in the league that wouldn't play better in some schemes and worse in others. I didn't agree with Nash being MVP either, but the fact of the matter is he made multiple All-Star teams as a Maverick and has been an All-Star since D'Antoni left.

[Junny]

Jesus some of you people talk as if you could put any bum in place of Nash and they will thrive. Nash thrived because he was Nash. And why do people still give a shyt about the MVP awards? Really, would it mean so much to you if your beloved player won one extra MVP after cancelling Nash's?

[SoCalMike]

Nash is a run 'n gun guy... and likely on of the best point guards ever in that sort of offense.... I can't think of anyone better at it from that offensive perspective....



:pimp:

[KB24Fan]

Then why is it that Chris Duhon played in the same system and averaged just over half as many assists and wasn't able to score as well? And you can make the case that anyone's a product of their system - having Stojakovic on the wing to catch and shoot, West to pick and pop, and Chandler to catch lobs didn't exactly hurt Chris Paul's numbers, but he's still far from just a product of a system. Hell, Kobe benefited from all the spacing the triangle gives him, but it's not like he'd suck if he played in a pick and roll oriented offense. Coaches acquire players who will thrive in their systems, and if there was someone better than Nash for running Pheonix's offense, they'd trade Nash and acquire them just like they did when Marbury was running the team.
IGNORANT RESPONSE didn't say Nash wasn't an all-star i just said he's not an HOF material...There's alot of Rubbish in this so let me carver through all of them....Duhon at best is a back up, Stojakovic is a shooter he can play in any system IDIOT!!!, Paul numbers r the same without Chandler IDIOT!!!, Look At The Beginning of The 04-05 season Kobe wasn't playing in A triangle an his numbers didn't change at all IDIOT!!! Marbury was a shoot 1st point guard IDIOT!!!

[wagexslave]

Cut it out, hes a two time MVP, and nobody can explain why.

Thats some serious overrating.

Shaq isn't even a two time MVP and his impact far surpasses that of Steve "No D" Nash.
Amazing passer, amazing shooter, one of the best players in the NBA in clutch times, consistent, makes his players better, great leader, led the Suns to 62 wins tying a franchise record...

[wagexslave]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/290985/possavspppa.jpg
See Steve Nash up there above everyone else? That's what you call greatness. :bowdown:

[KB24Fan]

Amazing passer, amazing shooter, one of the best players in the NBA in clutch times, consistent, makes his players better, great leader, led the Suns to 62 wins tying a franchise record...
Jesus Christ WOW!!! Great Shooter Great Passer, Great Offensive System, when does nash rebound,play defense, when do you see nash make a key defensive stop on another point guard...Tony Parker used to rape him in the playoffs...All i'm hearing is Great Shooter,Great Passer you gotta be more than that 2 get in the HOF...

[KAJ=GOAT]

Amazing passer, amazing shooter, one of the best players in the NBA in clutch times, consistent, makes his players better, great leader, led the Suns to 62 wins tying a franchise record...


Probably the biggest misconception in basketball.

Player A doesn't make Player B, or C, or D better.

He has a solid offensive game, I'm not denying that,

but there are two sides to basketball, and he just doesn't cut it on the other end to justify why hes great.

Dennis Rodman always gets put down because he didn't do it at the offensive end.

But Steve Nash gets a pass for not having D?

I don't think so.

[imlmf]

nash is great

[Junny]

Probably the biggest misconception in basketball.

Player A doesn't make Player B, or C, or D better.

He has a solid offensive game, I'm not denying that,

but there are two sides to basketball, and he just doesn't cut it on the other end to justify why hes great.

Dennis Rodman always gets put down because he didn't do it at the offensive end.

But Steve Nash gets a pass for not having D?

I don't think so.

I see no problem in those 2 players making the HOF. They're both great in their own way, and should be recognized for it.

[spree43]

Probably the biggest misconception in basketball.

Player A doesn't make Player B, or C, or D better.

He has a solid offensive game, I'm not denying that,

but there are two sides to basketball, and he just doesn't cut it on the other end to justify why hes great.

Dennis Rodman always gets put down because he didn't do it at the offensive end.

But Steve Nash gets a pass for not having D?

I don't think so.
Wow ... so you are saying that playing with a player that can find you when you are open, and even get you open, doesn't make it easier to score, therefore making you a better player? Is that what you are saying?

[wagexslave]

Probably the biggest misconception in basketball.

Player A doesn't make Player B, or C, or D better.

He has a solid offensive game, I'm not denying that,

but there are two sides to basketball, and he just doesn't cut it on the other end to justify why hes great.

Dennis Rodman always gets put down because he didn't do it at the offensive end.

But Steve Nash gets a pass for not having D?

I don't think so.
He may not be a good defender overall(he gets walked all over most of the time), but he's one of the best players I've ever seen at drawing offensive fouls. You've got to give him at least SOME credit for how well he draws charges.

I don't think he's the best overall player in the NBA or anything, not even close... but MVP award isn't the "best overall player in the NBA" award. That's why he won.

[spree43]

I don't believe in this type of overrating

If 95% of people belive Nash is a great player, and you are in the 5% that doesn't, odds are you are underrating him

Overrating is if, say, Cavs fans think Hickson is the next Malone ... Then they are overrating him because they puting his value above the generally accepted level

Even someone like Joe Johnson I don't think is underated, because if you ask most fans they'll say he's a really good player, Id say he's more overlooked

[rep602]

I am having a hard time naming right now in the league one point guard that can completely shut down another. The pg position is played by a lot of damn good players who are always gonna get there numbers...

[phoenix18]

Nash is a run 'n gun guy... and likely on of the best point guards ever in that sort of offense.... I can't think of anyone better at it from that offensive perspective....



:pimp:

See, this is why people say he's overrated.

[phoenix18]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/290985/possavspppa.jpg
See Steve Nash up there above everyone else? That's what you call greatness. :bowdown:

What? CP3 is doing just as much with at least two hundred less possessions?

I love Steve Nash, but people put him on such a HIGH pedestal.

[Niquesports]

I don't believe in this type of overrating

If 95% of people belive Nash is a great player, and you are in the 5% that doesn't, odds are you are underrating him

Overrating is if, say, Cavs fans think Hickson is the next Malone ... Then they are overrating him because they puting his value above the generally accepted level

Even someone like Joe Johnson I don't think is underated, because if you ask most fans they'll say he's a really good player, Id say he's more overlooked


Nash is a very tricky situation. No one would rank him with the other 2 time MVp's he has no playoff sucess and he has never been the no questions asked best PG . his teams have always had let downs in the playoffs and he is very weak on D but you cant deny his passing ablilty but I dont see much difference in him and mark Price I find it hard to rank him as a top 10 PG of all time here is the list
Magic
Oscar
isiah
Stockton
Cousy
Frazier
payton
KJ
Kidd
Tiny
DJ
I would take all over Nash without even thinking about it

[KAJ=GOAT]

Wow ... so you are saying that playing with a player that can find you when you are open, and even get you open, doesn't make it easier to score, therefore making you a better player? Is that what you are saying?




How much better would Steve Nash make Kwame Brown?


Getting a person an easier shot, doesn't equate into making them a better player.


You don't just turn shit into gold because you have the right tools.

[catch24]

Chris Paul > Deron Williams=Steve Nash currently (barring injury D-Will is slightly better than Nash).

Why do people continue to believe his MVP(s) weren't justified? 2005-2006: 19 points on 50% shooting, 10.5 assists, 4.2 rebounds, almost a steal (0.8), 90+% from FTs, 42% from 3. These are Magic Johnson numbers except with better all around precision (shooting). Needless to say he carried the Suns to a first place ranking/atop their division, all without Amare Stoudemire who missed 79 games. He was the consensus MVP--Kobe & Lebron made a case, but the numbers do not lie.

[KAJ=GOAT]

He may not be a good defender overall(he gets walked all over most of the time), but he's one of the best players I've ever seen at drawing offensive fouls. You've got to give him at least SOME credit for how well he draws charges.

I don't think he's the best overall player in the NBA or anything, not even close... but MVP award isn't the "best overall player in the NBA" award. That's why he won.

Sorry pal, you don't get credit for taking charges as playing defense.

If thats the case, Derek Fisher is a great defender in the league.

In regards to MVP, there is no criteria. No, "best player on best team", "best player on team with 50 wins", etc.



Its a mystery as to why he won.

[twolvesfan]

Since steve nash joined the suns there offensive efficiency has finished

04-05 1st (114.5)
05-06 2nd (111.5)
06-07 1st (113.9)
07-08 2nd (113.3)
08-09 2nd (113.6)
09-10 1st (114.2)


Steve Nash is a ridiculously good offensive player and unarguably makes everyone around him better.

[Junny]

Sorry pal, you don't get credit for taking charges as playing defense.

If thats the case, Derek Fisher is a great defender in the league.

In regards to MVP, there is no criteria. No, "best player on best team", "best player on team with 50 wins", etc.



Its a mystery as to why he won.

Why not? Taking charges is good D. Now flopping isn't, and if that's what you're arguing, fine. But "taking charges isn't playing defense" is just plain wrong.

[Pharcyde]

Prove that he's a system player.

[spree43]

How much better would Steve Nash make Kwame Brown?


Getting a person an easier shot, doesn't equate into making them a better player.


You don't just turn shit into gold because you have the right tools.
Ok, if you want to be completely technical I'll put it this way (the way everyone perceives the original statement)

He gets players playing closer to their optimum level

A player might only be playing at 50% of his offensive capabilities playing with smush Parker at the point, Nash might have him playing at 95% ... making him play better than he would with another point guard

Name me one player who has become less effective offensively playing with Nash and I'll name you 5 who have improved

[spree43]

LOOK AT HOW MANY SHOT ATTEMPTS THE SUN TAKE A GAME... LOOK AT PLAYERS PRE SUNS & POST SUNS AND TELL ME THAT ITS NOT THE SYSTEM... WHAT OTHER TEAM WOULD DAVID LEE AVERAGE 20 & 11 ON BE 4REAL....MIKE D'ANTONI RUN & GUN
They may be scoring more on the knicks but they aren't winning are they, the suns are winning with Nash because he is so good that he makes this system effective

Which Knicks players are actually puting up career best numbers or playing above expected? David Lee is just the best player on a really bad team

Duhon is playing at the same level, Hughes is struggling to be efficient, Harrington is too inconsistent to start, Chandler hasn't been a great scorer, Gallonari could be better in another system

Sure they get more shots, but are they playing better? No

Nash is like a wizard running the offense, as he was in Dallas as well

[plowking]

Steve Nash doesn't think you're overrated.

[OmniStrife]

Nash is the GOAT offense-only type of player.

1st ever to go 4 years in a row (& now the 5th) 50-40-90, something no other player in the NBA's history could come close to.

Oh, and he's a terrific passer to as well.

MVP - Most Valuable Player and not OMGWASSP - Oh My God What A Super-Star Player.

Nash alone made the Suns an elite team during his prime.

Oh and btw his white scrawny old ass is still putting up mad numbers.

The only PG I remember that could produce so much at such an age is Stockton.

[gpfanz]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...

His lousy team beat your Lakers 2/3 straight yrs in the playoffs meaning ur Lakers must really sucked :banghead:

[GiveItToBurrito]

IGNORANT RESPONSE didn't say Nash wasn't an all-star i just said he's not an HOF material...There's alot of Rubbish in this so let me carver through all of them....Duhon at best is a back up, Stojakovic is a shooter he can play in any system IDIOT!!!, Paul numbers r the same without Chandler IDIOT!!!, Look At The Beginning of The 04-05 season Kobe wasn't playing in A triangle an his numbers didn't change at all IDIOT!!! Marbury was a shoot 1st point guard IDIOT!!!

He is a hall of fame caliber player, look at his numbers, the effect he had on the Suns, win shares, PER, and what the other players say about him. Duhon is a solid backup, sure, and he wasn't much better than that playing in the same system as Nash - D'Antoni's system isn't some magical thing that turns good point guards into transcendent talents. Stojakovic and Chandler were used as examples of guys who catch and shoot (or dunk in Chandler's case) which is what you're going to want to surround an elite passing/playmaking point guard with. Kobe's numbers did take a bit of a hit in 2004/2005, his efficiency and scoring numbers both dropped, possibly as a result of not having Shaq to draw attention away from him, but he still was a good player, just not as good as he'd been playing in a system that catered to what makes him good. Yes, Marbury was a shoot first point guard who also wasn't a great outside shooter, so they let him go and acquired Nash since that's the type of player you want running an offense like Phoenix's. Nice Tourrette's, too.

[AmazingManning]

Ever? :lol

[Lebron23]

I see why our fan base is hated on by most. Idiots.


This

[KAJ=GOAT]

They may be scoring more on the knicks but they aren't winning are they, the suns are winning with Nash because he is so good that he makes this system effective

Which Knicks players are actually puting up career best numbers or playing above expected? David Lee is just the best player on a really bad team

Duhon is playing at the same level, Hughes is struggling to be efficient, Harrington is too inconsistent to start, Chandler hasn't been a great scorer, Gallonari could be better in another system

Sure they get more shots, but are they playing better? No

Nash is like a wizard running the offense, as he was in Dallas as well


You still haven't answered my question,

how good does Steve Nash make Kwame Brown?

[DuMa]

someone is mad that steve nash took the MVP from Kobe :oldlol:

[Samurai Swoosh]

FYI people forget and act like he wasn't a perrenial All Star when he was on the Mavericks as well.

[Go Getter]

Nash is a run 'n gun guy... and likely on of the best point guards ever in that sort of offense.... I can't think of anyone better at it from that offensive perspective....



:pimp:

You'd be an idiot to take Nash over Magic in a run and gun system.

Magic ran a run and gun system and, you know, actually won something.

Nash is overrated. I have never seen anyone that hasn't won spit be so exalted [well maybe Dirk].

[ShannonElementz]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...


:no: :no: :no:

[catch24]

Nash is overrated. I have never seen anyone that hasn't won spit be so exalted [well maybe Dirk].

So according to your logic .. Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Melo are overrated as well?

[Samurai Swoosh]

So according to your logic .. Lebron, Durant, Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Melo are overrated as well?
Seriously ...

I see a racial subtext with some people in here.

Point blank, Nash is one of the best PGs EVER ...

[Lebron23]

Steve Nash is a good playoffs performer.

The 2004-2007 Phoenix Suns were one of the greatest offensive teams of all time, but you guys must remember that defense wins championship.

[phoenix18]

Seriously ...

I see a racial subtext with some people in here.

Point blank, Nash is one of the best PGs EVER ...

No racial subtext from me. I just feel that people overrate him constantly. Just last month, people were trying to say that Nash was better than Kidd.

And in this thread, someone said he was the greatest fast break PG ever.

[Cyclone112]

how good does Steve Nash make Kwame Brown?

If Kwame was actually starting on the Suns and getting the minutes he got on the Lakers then I guarantee his scoring and efficiency would have improved. How are pre-teens such as yourself so clueless about this concept. If PG's couldn't make their teams more efficient on the offensive end(as most PG's run the offense) then there would be no reason in having them generally run it.

Why don't you go watch a few Suns games and see Nash constantly get the ball to any player on his team with a wide open shot, an easy alley-oop, a clear lane to the hoop etc. Kwame wouldn't be getting the ball dumped in to him for him to create for himself ever, it would be Nash creating for him and getting him the ball in a good situation.

I'm not saying Kwame would be known as a good or great player playing with Nash but you can definitely bet he would be more efficient and more confident.

[dutchguy]

Nash is just the player's player.
People who love the fundamentals and team aspect of basketball love him.

the reason some people think he's overrated is that he's not athletic, doesn't score 30 a game and doesn't have the crazy stats (well, not in scoring)

[Samurai Swoosh]

No racial subtext from me. I just feel that people overrate him constantly. Just last month, people were trying to say that Nash was better than Kidd.
Thats not blasphemous to say in the least. In fact thats a legitimate argument, either way. And techinically, with his two MVPs ... Nash has a better case at being ranked higher than Jason Kidd.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Nash is just the player's player.
People who love the fundamentals and team aspect of basketball love him.
Steve Nash is VERY flashy as well. Just not in a jump up and dunk on you kind of way.

[D.J.]

Steve Nash is arguably the best offensive-minded point guard in NBA history. I believe him and Larry Bird are the only players to put up 50/40/90 in multiple seasons. His two MVP's alone will get him into the HOF. Like it or not, he is going.

Is he a system point guard? To an extent, yes. He was still a solid point guard in Dallas(18/8 was his best season, I believe he averaged 14/6 in his tenure), but D'Antoni's system definitely made his life easier and emphasized his strengths(fast breaks, constant passing and shooting).

Is he overrated? I personally say no until you start mentioning him with the all-time greats. Once you start comparing him with Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Isiah, Payton, and Kidd, it doesn't make him look good at all. These are all guys that not just made the Finals at least once, but guys that played defense and didn't get crushed by good defensive teams.

[dutchguy]

Steve Nash is VERY flashy as well. Just not in a jump up and dunk on you kind of way.

exactly

[ILLsmak]

I think Nash is an outstanding player, but he is overrated. It's hard to understand how people can praise a player so much for running a system that is proven to be ineffective deep in the playoffs. You can say "Well, if Amare hadn't gotten suspended..." and it's possible, but he did and they lost.

So, we have Nash who continues to play the same style even though he knows he will never win a ring with it... never improved his defense (and whoever said taking charges is legit but not flopping... 95% of the charges taken in the NBA are flops. ) It makes no sense.

I know you might flame me for saying this, but I believe D'antoni ball is meant to abuse the weaker teams. That's why it looks so good in the regular season but fails in the playoffs. If you look at the stats, you'll see what I mean.

So, Nash is a great player and he is an offensive genius, but I can't believe anyone would call him the greatest offensive point guard ever.

-Smak

[Cyclone112]

I think Nash is an outstanding player, but he is overrated. It's hard to understand how people can praise a player so much for running a system that is proven to be ineffective deep in the playoffs. You can say "Well, if Amare hadn't gotten suspended..." and it's possible, but he did and they lost.

So, we have Nash who continues to play the same style even though he knows he will never win a ring with it... never improved his defense (and whoever said taking charges is legit but not flopping... 95% of the charges taken in the NBA are flops. ) It makes no sense.

I know you might flame me for saying this, but I believe D'antoni ball is meant to abuse the weaker teams. That's why it looks so good in the regular season but fails in the playoffs. If you look at the stats, you'll see what I mean.

So, Nash is a great player and he is an offensive genius, but I can't believe anyone would call him the greatest offensive point guard ever.

-Smak

In 05/06 Nash got to the WCF without Amare Stoudemire and averaged 21/10 on 52%. It's fair to say with Amare Stoudemire there's a great chance they make the finals.

In 06/07 The Suns got majorly screwed and not just because of the suspensions. I've made a few big posts about this series and don't want to bother again but they were screwed in more ways then the suspensions.

Yes these are two if scenarios which could have played out the same way but I think its fair to say Nash would have at least one finals appearance.

As for calling him the greatest offensive PG ever, I think people are emphasizing efficiency and assists as well as the scoring. As far as pure scoring wise he may be the most efficient PG ever as someone else stated with his multiple 50/40/90 seasons. Throw in his assists and how much more efficient he makes his teammates to go along with his points on incredible efficiency and its fair to say he's one of the greatest offensive PG's ever when taking all of that into account.

I'm not saying he is THE best offensive PG ever but he definitely has a case. I'm interested in what other PG's you think are better offensively. Magic Johnson comes to mind and most people will probably say he is better offensively which is fair to say but who else and why?

[catch24]

If Kobe was "robbed", some can make a case for Lebron as well. He was able to average 31.4 ppg 48.0% FG 7.0 rebounds, 6.6 assists 1.6 steals 0.8 blocks 33.5% 3PT and lead his team to 50 wins--the media watermark. Kobe misses 55% of his shots and rarely passed the ball in 2006 (I watched that entire season, albeit he wasn't surrounded with the greatest supporting cast, there were so MANY nights he shotjacked, lol). Either or, Lebron makes a case equal to Kobe's, arguably greater.

[Cermet]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...

another retard... where do you all come from seriously? USA ?

[D.J.]

If Kobe was "robbed", some can make a case for Lebron as well. He was able to average 31.4 ppg 48.0% FG 7.0 rebounds, 6.6 assists 1.6 steals 0.8 blocks 33.5% 3PT and lead his team to 50 wins--the media watermark. Kobe misses 55% of his shots and rarely passed the ball in 2006 (I watched that entire season, albeit he wasn't surrounded with the greatest supporting cast, there were so MANY nights he shotjacked, lol). Either or, Lebron makes a case equal to Kobe's, arguably greater.


IMO, LeBron had more of a case in 2007. He put up similar numbers and led his team to the Finals. 2006 was Kobe's year, despite his ball hogging. Without him, that Lakers team is probably winning 20-25 games at best.

[KingLeBronJames]

I think Nash only deserved the 2005 MVP. That's it.

[blackification]

Steve Nash became the first nba player to ever light an olympic torch yesterday but instead of a thread about that we get hate threads about how overrated he is? The guy has done a lot for the nba people need to get over it.

[EricForman]

Seriously ...

I see a racial subtext with some people in here.

Point blank, Nash is one of the best PGs EVER ...


of course there is. there always has been on ISH. that's why iverson and Sheed still have fanboys when they've been mediocre for several years now.

Nash and Dirk get hated on more than anyone else on ISH. Dirk is supposed to soft choker even though he's led the Mavs to 9 straight 50 win seasons now and really played only slightly below average in the 06 finals. But Iverson has one freaking playoff run his entire frekaing life and he's still a legend here. No matter what, people hold on to that 2001 run.

Nash has won 50+ with at least two different casts on the Suns (you can argue three), he's done it without Amare, without Marion. Without his coach. He's been the only constant. He drops a double double with 90/50/40 averages and is doing this at 35.

They can't take in all that and admit he's great. Instead they overexaggerate his bad D (like it's alot worse than Chris Paul's D? Jumping at passing lanes and getting 3 steals a game isn't necessarily good defense. That's why Bruce Bowen is one of the greatest defenders ever and someone with gaudy steal numbers like Larry Hughes isn't)

[ILLsmak]

In 05/06 Nash got to the WCF without Amare Stoudemire and averaged 21/10 on 52%. It's fair to say with Amare Stoudemire there's a great chance they make the finals.

In 06/07 The Suns got majorly screwed and not just because of the suspensions. I've made a few big posts about this series and don't want to bother again but they were screwed in more ways then the suspensions.

Yes these are two if scenarios which could have played out the same way but I think its fair to say Nash would have at least one finals appearance.

As for calling him the greatest offensive PG ever, I think people are emphasizing efficiency and assists as well as the scoring. As far as pure scoring wise he may be the most efficient PG ever as someone else stated with his multiple 50/40/90 seasons. Throw in his assists and how much more efficient he makes his teammates to go along with his points on incredible efficiency and its fair to say he's one of the greatest offensive PG's ever when taking all of that into account.

I'm not saying he is THE best offensive PG ever but he definitely has a case. I'm interested in what other PG's you think are better offensively. Magic Johnson comes to mind and most people will probably say he is better offensively which is fair to say but who else and why?

Anyone who is named as a great point guard would have to be great offensively because one of their main jobs is to run the offense. I'd say the argument can be made for John Stockton. He had more assists and barely fewer points. He also has longevity.

You could also make a case for Terrell Brandon if you take into account the fact that their offense was super, super slow paced.

Kevin Johnson, maybe, too.

Steve Nash's 'greatness' and 'efficiency' is his mastery of the Suns offense. I'd say every great point guard had the same level of mastery if not more... and every one of them was better at defense. And Stevie's mastery (at its apex) only lasted three years... three non-championship winning years.

Edit: lol, I keep thinking of names. What about J Kidd?

-Smak

[EricForman]

Cut it out, hes a two time MVP, and nobody can explain why.

Thats some serious overrating.

Shaq isn't even a two time MVP and his impact far surpasses that of Steve "No D" Nash.

I thought Nash winning over Shaq in 2005 was ridiculous too. But then the playoffs rolled around and the Heat swept the second round without Shaq while Nash carried his Suns to beat the Mavs while dropping daggers and triple doubles along the way.

Nobody can explain why? The fact is no one had a significantly better case than NAsh in 05 or 06. You could make a case for SHaq in 05 or Kobe in 06, but neither were exactly "extremely convincing" to the point that it was ridiculous Nash won.

[OmniStrife]

of course there is. there always has been on ISH. that's why iverson and Sheed still have fanboys when they've been mediocre for several years now.

Nash and Dirk get hated on more than anyone else on ISH. Dirk is supposed to soft choker even though he's led the Mavs to 9 straight 50 win seasons now and really played only slightly below average in the 06 finals. But Iverson has one freaking playoff run his entire frekaing life and he's still a legend here. No matter what, people hold on to that 2001 run.

Nash has won 50+ with at least two different casts on the Suns (you can argue three), he's done it without Amare, without Marion. Without his coach. He's been the only constant. He drops a double double with 90/50/40 averages and is doing this at 35.

They can't take in all that and admit he's great. Instead they overexaggerate his bad D (like it's alot worse than Chris Paul's D? Jumping at passing lanes and getting 3 steals a game isn't necessarily good defense. That's why Bruce Bowen is one of the greatest defenders ever and someone with gaudy steal numbers like Larry Hughes isn't)
:cheers:
So true that.

As for Bruce Bowen, I hope He'll die soon and go to hell asap, there's nothing on this Earth in sports I hate more than this dirty-playing ass. Fvcker could've ended careers, kicking players elbowing, trying to cause bad landings for players. if that's your defensive marble than you can shove that D deep into your asshole.
He stands for the total opposite of an athlete to me.

[EricForman]

:cheers:
So true that.

As for Bruce Bowen, I hope He'll die soon and go to hell asap, there's nothing on this Earth in sports I hate more than this dirty-playing ass. Fvcker could've ended careers, kicking players elbowing, trying to cause bad landings for players. if that's your defensive marble than you can shove that D deep into your asshole.
He stands for the total opposite of an athlete to me.


The fact is everyone would want Bruce Bowen on their team. Real defense is sticking your man, pestering him, getting on his nerves, and making it uncomfortable for him. Just that many fall in love with the steal numbers and think that's defense.

Nash probably isn't much worse a defender than Iverson. Guy jumps around at passing lanes. Yeah when he gets a steal it looks nice, when he misses the steal he gives the guy a driving lane. But shhhh you can't tell these idiots who keep bashing NAsh's defense that. Because #1 : Iverson is black and is hip hop, so they love him. #2: Iverson has high steal numbers so he's a great defender.

If Nash is a 60 out of 100 on defense Iverson is a 65 at most. Either way neither guys would stop an opposing player from dropping 30 if they get hot.

[BFRESH44]

I think Nash only deserved the 2005 MVP. That's it.

Absolutely not. Shaq was robbed.

I'll give him a pass for the 2006 MVP before I give him the 05.

[phoenix18]

of course there is. there always has been on ISH. that's why iverson and Sheed still have fanboys when they've been mediocre for several years now.

Nash and Dirk get hated on more than anyone else on ISH. Dirk is supposed to soft choker even though he's led the Mavs to 9 straight 50 win seasons now and really played only slightly below average in the 06 finals. But Iverson has one freaking playoff run his entire frekaing life and he's still a legend here. No matter what, people hold on to that 2001 run.

Nash has won 50+ with at least two different casts on the Suns (you can argue three), he's done it without Amare, without Marion. Without his coach. He's been the only constant. He drops a double double with 90/50/40 averages and is doing this at 35.

They can't take in all that and admit he's great. Instead they overexaggerate his bad D (like it's alot worse than Chris Paul's D? Jumping at passing lanes and getting 3 steals a game isn't necessarily good defense. That's why Bruce Bowen is one of the greatest defenders ever and someone with gaudy steal numbers like Larry Hughes isn't)
:oldlol: You are so lame. How can an AI fan trash him all the time? :lol

I know, you are just being realistic. Yeah.... right. :lol

[Cyclone112]

Anyone who is named as a great point guard would have to be great offensively because one of their main jobs is to run the offense. I'd say the argument can be made for John Stockton. He had more assists and barely fewer points. He also has longevity.

You could also make a case for Terrell Brandon if you take into account the fact that their offense was super, super slow paced.

Kevin Johnson, maybe, too.

Steve Nash's 'greatness' and 'efficiency' is his mastery of the Suns offense. I'd say every great point guard had the same level of mastery if not more... and every one of them was better at defense. And Stevie's mastery (at its apex) only lasted three years... three non-championship winning years.

Edit: lol, I keep thinking of names. What about J Kidd?

-Smak

Kevin Johnson and John Stockton are both comparable but Terrell Brandon and J Kidd definitely not just on shooting percentage alone and not going into any other detail. We are just talking offense and the fact you brought Kidd into the discussion is just :wtf:

As far as longevity so far

Stockton @ 35/36: 11.5/8
Nash @ 35/36: 18/11

While Stockton had some close PPG seasons to Nash he generally played 3-5 minutes more per game then Nash. Stockton's career high in points is 34 which shows he was extremely consistent and dependable but he couldn't take games over while Nash does consistently hitting big shots and scoring when his team is in a slump.

[ILLsmak]

Kevin Johnson and John Stockton are both comparable but Terrell Brandon and J Kidd definitely not just on shooting percentage alone and not going into any other detail. We are just talking offense and the fact you brought Kidd into the discussion is just :wtf:

As far as longevity so far

Stockton @ 35/36: 11.5/8
Nash @ 35/36: 18/11

While Stockton had some close PPG seasons to Nash he generally played 3-5 minutes more per game then Nash. Stockton's career high in points is 34 which shows he was extremely consistent and dependable but he couldn't take games over while Nash does consistently hitting big shots and scoring when his team is in a slump.

Talking about career wise when I said longevity. As said, Nash only had three years that would be considered 'great.' Two of them he won MVP. How can you say he's not overrated?

Jason Kidd is also an offensive genius. You don't really have to be a knock down shooter to be a great offensive player. Also, Kidd went to the finals lol

-Smak

[Cyclone112]

Talking about career wise when I said longevity. As said, Nash only had three years that would be considered 'great.' Two of them he won MVP. How can you say he's not overrated?

Jason Kidd is also an offensive genius. You don't really have to be a knock down shooter to be a great offensive player. Also, Kidd went to the finals lol

-Smak

First off Nash hasn't had only three great seasons, he's having one of his best seasons right now(if not thee best statistically) at 36 and he's been very consistent pretty much the last decade. Just because he was more noticed in 2 years doesn't mean every other year he's played worse.

Second saying Kidd is an offensive genius is just ridiculous and then you throw in the dumbass finals comment. Let's put Kidd in the Western Conference over that time period and we can see how many finals Kidd would have made. The Eastern Conference for the majority of the decade has been majorly weak and for a few years people actually considered the WCF the real Finals.

[phoenix18]

First off Nash hasn't had only three great seasons, he's having one of his best seasons right now(if not thee best statistically) at 36 and he's been very consistent pretty much the last decade. Just because he was more noticed in 2 years doesn't mean every other year he's played worse.

Second saying Kidd is an offensive genius is just ridiculous and then you throw in the dumbass finals comment. Let's put Kidd in the Western Conference over that time period and we can see how many finals Kidd would have made. The Eastern Conference for the majority of the decade has been majorly weak and for a few years people actually considered the WCF the real Finals.


:oldlol: No way.

This garbage team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2001.html) won 51 games in 2000-2001.

[D.J.]

:oldlol: No way.

This garbage team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2001.html) won 51 games in 2000-2001.


Kidd also led the 2000 Suns to 53-29 and upset the Spurs in the first round. Yes, Duncan didn't play, but the fact that Kidd won over 50 games in consecutive seasons and upset the Spurs is quite an accomplishment. And those Suns teams were nothing offensively compared to the Suns over the past five years.

[Cyclone112]

:oldlol: No way.

This garbage team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2001.html) won 51 games in 2000-2001.

What are you disputing? I'm not knocking Kidd but comparing him offensively to Nash is ridiculous. Also that Suns team is misleading as they were tied with the Spurs as the best defensive team in the league, they just didn't have enough offensive fire power. Too often now people consider teams trash when they are not. Just look at the Cavs the last few years and how everyone is saying Lebron is working with garbage when in fact they complement him very well and are great defensive squads. You would know all about that though with Iverson's 'trash' team that very same year.

Taking that 'garbage' team to 51 wins also took them to the 6th seed and a first round exit in the Western Conference while in the Eastern Conference they would have been the 3rd seed.

[Wordup]

How the hec is Nash 36?

[bizil]

I remember BJ Armstrong saying this on ESPN. And guess what his ass ain't on ESPN no more. Nash to me is a top 10 PG of all time. He was an All-Star in Dallas before he got to Phoenix. Sure he was better in the Suns system, but he proved he was an All-Star with Dallas anyway. To me Nash is part John Stockton and part Mark Price. An awesome combo of passing and shooting. He has the heart of lion and when he wants can takeover a game scoring. He doesn't have Stockton's D but he's a better scorer and just as good of a passer. To me here is the top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic
2. Big O
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Cousy
6. Frazier (love these type of PG's. The best combo of scoring, assists, and lockdown D capable of guarding 1,2, and even some 3's)
7. Kidd
8. Payton (see Clyde)
9. Nash
10. Tiny

[RoseCity07]

Nash is like a cool John Stockton. Stockton never won a championship either. Nash is a all time great point guard.

[D.J.]

I remember BJ Armstrong saying this on ESPN. And guess what his ass ain't on ESPN no more. Nash to me is a top 10 PG of all time. He was an All-Star in Dallas before he got to Phoenix. Sure he was better in the Suns system, but he proved he was an All-Star with Dallas anyway. To me Nash is part John Stockton and part Mark Price. An awesome combo of passing and shooting. He has the heart of lion and when he wants can takeover a game scoring. He doesn't have Stockton's D but he's a better scorer and just as good of a passer. To me here is the top 10 PGs of all time:

1. Magic
2. Big O
3. Zeke
4. Stockton
5. Cousy
6. Frazier (love these type of PG's. The best combo of scoring, assists, and lockdown D capable of guarding 1,2, and even some 3's)
7. Kidd
8. Payton (see Clyde)
9. Nash
10. Tiny


Personally, I think Nash is in the 11-15 range. I agree with your first six, but I would put Payton above Kidd, bump Tiny to ninth, and make Tim Hardaway or Kevin Johnson tenth.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Well shit it looks like unathletic old Steve Nash just beat three of the most athletic guards in the league in the skills challenge :cheers:

[D.J.]

Well shit it looks like unathletic old Steve Nash just beat three of the most athletic guards in the league in the skills challenge :cheers:


Yes he did. Ball handling, passing, and shooting are his greatest strengths.

[DuMa]

http://i46.tinypic.com/svgg0o.gif

Nash > your face

[ConanRulesNBC]

Steve Nash is a great player. This thread sucks.

[KB24Fan]

You Say he's an all-time great, and its not the offensive system,but Chris Paul plays in an mid tempo offense and his numbers are the same, so is D-Will...
Hell I'll take Tyreke Evans 20,5,5, nows how to get in the lane in crunch time instead of settling for jumpers, plays defense more than nash.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Yes he did. Ball handling, passing, and shooting are his greatest strengths.

They are also three of the most important traits for good point guards.

Steve Nash is a great point guard and a future hall of famer. If anyone thinks that he is merely the product of a system then they need to re-evaluate their view of the game.

The skills challenge doesn't mean much, but Nash winning it at 36 when he was nowhere near these guys athletically even at 26 says something pretty obvious about his overall skill.

[Maniak]

You Say he's an all-time great, and its not the offensive system,but Chris Paul plays in an mid tempo offense and his numbers are the same, so is D-Will...
Hell I'll take Tyreke Evans 20,5,5, nows how to get in the lane in crunch time instead of settling for jumpers, plays defense more than nash.
How the **** does this have 6 pages?

KB24Fan not only has the most obvious troll name, but the most obvious troll agenda. hes just here to piss you off.

You ****ing dumbshits are falling for his trolling.

[Cyclone112]

You Say he's an all-time great, and its not the offensive system,but Chris Paul plays in an mid tempo offense and his numbers are the same, so is D-Will...
Hell I'll take Tyreke Evans 20,5,5, nows how to get in the lane in crunch time instead of settling for jumpers, plays defense more than nash.

Maybe when you get out of your teens in 5+ years you'll look back and realize what an uneducated idiot you were.

LOL at 'settling for jumpers' when A) Nash does drive and either sets up his teammates or gets off a lay-up himself or B) 'settles' for a jumper at 52% or a 3pointer at 44%.

NOH pace factor: 92.2
Suns pace factor: 95.9
Nash minutes: 33.7
Paul minutes: 38.7

I'd say the 4 extra possessions the Suns get is worth less than the 5 extra minutes that Paul plays.

EDIT:

92.2 / 48 * 38.7 = 74.3 possessions/game
95.9 / 48 * 33.7 = 67.3 possessions/game

So this season Chris Paul is getting an extra 7 possessions per game over Nash which is 10% more possessions per game.

[D.J.]

They are also three of the most important traits for good point guards.

Steve Nash is a great point guard and a future hall of famer. If anyone thinks that he is merely the product of a system then they need to re-evaluate their view of the game.

The skills challenge doesn't mean much, but Nash winning it at 36 when he was nowhere near these guys athletically even at 26 says something pretty obvious about his overall skill.


He may not be a product of the system, but there's no doubt playing in Phoenix helped his career. Nash was no where near being a Hall of Famer in 2004 at age 30.

[Go Getter]

You Say he's an all-time great, and its not the offensive system,but Chris Paul plays in an mid tempo offense and his numbers are the same, so is D-Will...
Hell I'll take Tyreke Evans 20,5,5, nows how to get in the lane in crunch time instead of settling for jumpers, plays defense more than nash.
Defense is so underrated.

People forget how Nash get THRASHED by opposing PG's.

And how won the Skills Challenge this year but lost it last year to Derrick Rose, lol.

[ILLsmak]

They are also three of the most important traits for good point guards.

Steve Nash is a great point guard and a future hall of famer. If anyone thinks that he is merely the product of a system then they need to re-evaluate their view of the game.

The skills challenge doesn't mean much, but Nash winning it at 36 when he was nowhere near these guys athletically even at 26 says something pretty obvious about his overall skill.

I'd say defense is pretty important, too.

I am tired of saying the same thing, but I feel compelled to. I was thinking about how many pgs I would take over Nash if I was starting a team that had a goal of winning a ring. Basically any PG that was great in their time, I'd take over Nash. I was also thinking of all of the PGs I've watched in my lifetime that would shit on Nash in a 1 on 1 match-up.

It's not that Nash isn't a good player and a sure-fire all star. I don't even mind him making the Hall of Fame because he has, in his own way, refined the game. However, calling him an all-time great is pretty wack.

And what I said stands... even though I don't recall someone addressing it: There are plenty of other PGs that have the same level of control over the offense their team runs... just because Phoenix is a high-scoring, no defense offense, Nash is a perfect fit. Why do people act like if you put Nash on a different style of team that he'd still be doing what he's doing? How can he be one of the greatest offensive PGs when it's obvious he would only shine in a certain system with certain types of players... A SYSTEM THAT IS PROVEN NOT TO WIN ANYTHING BUT REGULAR SEASON GAMES.

-Smak

[Samurai Swoosh]

Defense is so underrated.

People forget how Nash get THRASHED by opposing PG's.

And how won the Skills Challenge this year but lost it last year to Derrick Rose, lol.
Nash is no less a defender than alot of starting PGs, hell he isn't less a defender than alot of star guards.

His defensive defeciencies are one of the only things OVERRATED about Steve Nash.

Yeah, he lost one year. Are you even insinuating Steve Nash isn't a skilled PG or more skilled than Derrick Rose (as a Rose fan I can clearly admit Nash is 10x more skilled) because he lost a FUGAZY skills "competition"?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[hawksdogsbraves]

I'd say defense is pretty important, too.

I am tired of saying the same thing, but I feel compelled to. I was thinking about how many pgs I would take over Nash if I was starting a team that had a goal of winning a ring. Basically any PG that was great in their time, I'd take over Nash. I was also thinking of all of the PGs I've watched in my lifetime that would shit on Nash in a 1 on 1 match-up.

It's not that Nash isn't a good player and a sure-fire all star. I don't even mind him making the Hall of Fame because he has, in his own way, refined the game. However, calling him an all-time great is pretty wack.

And what I said stands... even though I don't recall someone addressing it: There are plenty of other PGs that have the same level of control over the offense their team runs... just because Phoenix is a high-scoring, no defense offense, Nash is a perfect fit. Why do people act like if you put Nash on a different style of team that he'd still be doing what he's doing? How can he be one of the greatest offensive PGs when it's obvious he would only shine in a certain system with certain types of players... A SYSTEM THAT IS PROVEN NOT TO WIN ANYTHING BUT REGULAR SEASON GAMES.

-Smak

I don't think you really know much about Nash or the Suns' system. Saying that you have seen a lot of pg's who could kill Nash 1on1 pretty much sums up your mentality.

[robertshaw_1]

nash is a great player...he just couldnt play defense against parker and ginobili from 03 to 08, and couldnt play offense against bowen from 03 to 08.

imo.

[coin24]

Steve nash is awesome :rockon: :rockon:

He made the skills challenge watchable.. Cant believe ppl are bagging him out, he plays hard every game and is still better than 95% of the pg in the league even at his age:cheers:

[plowking]

Anyone who has Kidd above Payton or Nash, shoot yourself. It's Kidd who is the most overrated point guard ever.

"OMG he's a point guard and he rebounds! Like WTF man?!? This sh!t is crazy"...

Let's just forget him shooting in the low 40's is a good season for him...

Also people rave on about how players average 50/40/90 in a season; well Nash silently is pretty much averaging that for his career...

[ILLsmak]

Steve nash is awesome :rockon: :rockon:

He made the skills challenge watchable.. Cant believe ppl are bagging him out, he plays hard every game and is still better than 95% of the pg in the league even at his age:cheers:

But he still came nowhere close to Deron's record in the Skills challenge! Deron made a mistake this time... that's it.

-Smak

[phoenix18]

Thats not blasphemous to say in the least. In fact thats a legitimate argument, either way. And techinically, with his two MVPs ... Nash has a better case at being ranked higher than Jason Kidd.

No way bro. It is blasphemous and if someone were to say that they honestly believe Nash is better than Kidd, I would need to make sure someone didnt slip something in drink.

[plowking]

No way bro. It is blasphemous and if someone were to say that they honestly believe Nash is better than Kidd, I would need to make sure someone didnt slip something in drink.

What is he better than Nash at? Defense and... it stops there.

[Samurai Swoosh]

No way bro. It is blasphemous and if someone were to say that they honestly believe Nash is better than Kidd, I would need to make sure someone didnt slip something in drink.
I think they're comprable. Both have had great careers.

[Samurai Swoosh]

What is he better than Nash at? Defense and... it stops there.
Exactly ... he's a superior defender. But I think Nash is the superior offensive talent. So it basically comes down to who is more dynamic at what, Kidd at Defense or Nash at Offense. And Nash brings more to the table offensively than what Jason Kidd gives you. He can run the break like Kidd, he's a vastly superior half court PG, and he can shoot the rock with the best of them. And like I said, Nash is no great defender, but he isn't any worse than alot of guards in the league.

They are comprable at the very least.

[D.J.]

As for the Kidd/Nash comparison, also remember that Kidd was putting up similar numbers for three teams. Nash was good in Dallas, but didn't dominate and topped eight assists per game only once.

[ILLsmak]

As for the Kidd/Nash comparison, also remember that Kidd was putting up similar numbers for three teams. Nash was good in Dallas, but didn't dominate and topped eight assists per game only once.

That's what I was gonna say. Kidd can push the point anywhere.

-Smak

[Cyclone112]

nash is a great player...he just couldnt play defense against parker and ginobili from 03 to 08, and couldnt play offense against bowen from 03 to 08.

imo.

That's why when Bowen was on the floor Nash guarded him so he didn't have to guard Parker or Ginobili. Marion and Bell generally guarded those two. As for Bruce playing good defense on Nash, he sure did. As much as I hated Bruce and he got away with tons of BS every team would want him as a defender and he did do a good job on Nash. He didn't shut Nash down by any means but he definitely made his life difficult, causing more turnovers and disrupting the offense.

[phoenix18]

Exactly ... he's a superior defender. But I think Nash is the superior offensive talent. So it basically comes down to who is more dynamic at what, Kidd at Defense or Nash at Offense. And Nash brings more to the table offensively than what Jason Kidd gives you. He can run the break like Kidd, he's a vastly superior half court PG, and he can shoot the rock with the best of them. And like I said, Nash is no great defender, but he isn't any worse than alot of guards in the league.

They are comprable at the very least.

Better defender/rebounder/passer/player/etc. Jason Kidd is greatness. I dont know how to make you realize that. He had Mikki Moore shooting 60% and get 10 a night in NJ. He had Nenad Krstic getting 16.4 ppg on 52.6% shooting. Kidd was giving guys career years.

I personally find Nash overrated. He's like the QB of the Suns, no matter how good everyone else truly is, he gets all the credit.

Do people really realize that once you take into account the talent level of the teams Nash has played on to Kidd's teams there is no contest as to who's better?

Look through what Kidd has done in this decade and you'll see that before he joined the Mavs, the best frontcourt player he had was Kenyon Martin. There were years 2004-2007, where he had bench players starting at the 4 and the 5 and he still made the Nets a playoff team.

Nash has played with: Michael Finley,Dirk,Juwan Howard,Nick Van Exel,Raja Bell,Antwan Jamison,Antoine Walker,Josh Howard,Amare Stoudemire,Joe Johnson,Shawn Marion,Boris Diaw,Shaq,J-rich.

[Swaggin916]

http://i46.tinypic.com/svgg0o.gif

He deserves to be in Hall for this alone

(This is going to be the most overused Gif on ISH lmao)

[ILLsmak]

You know Deron is thinking "I can't believe I let this D-bag win." haha. You can see it on his face.

-Smak

[Cyclone112]

Better defender/rebounder/passer/player/etc. Jason Kidd is greatness. I dont know how to make you realize that. He had Mikki Moore shooting 60% and get 10 a night in NJ. He had Nenad Krstic getting 16.4 ppg on 52.6% shooting. Kidd was giving guys career years.

I personally find Nash overrated. He's like the QB of the Suns, no matter how good everyone else truly is, he gets all the credit.

Do people really realize that once you take into account the talent level of the teams Nash has played on to Kidd's teams there is no contest as to who's better?

Look through what Kidd has done in this decade and you'll see that before he joined the Mavs, the best frontcourt player he had was Kenyon Martin. There were years 2004-2007, where he had bench players starting at the 4 and the 5 and he still made the Nets a playoff team.

Nash has played with: Michael Finley,Dirk,Juwan Howard,Nick Van Exel,Raja Bell,Antwan Jamison,Antoine Walker,Josh Howard,Amare Stoudemire,Joe Johnson,Shawn Marion,Boris Diaw,Shaq,J-rich.

I'm going to bed so I won't do a full response but all I'm going to say is this regarding the bold:

Rebounding: Really how important is rebounding for a PG. I rather have the PG be ready for an outlet to initiate a possible fast break then to get in and rebound when the bigs should be doing that.

Passing: You can't be serious. If you actually believe that then you either don't know Nash at all or are just a complete hater for whatever reason.

Player: What? Not even a skill or attribute of basketball just you realizing listing 3 things wasn't enough so you tagged that on with the other 3 even though one of them really doesn't matter and the one is completely false.

[phoenix18]

I'm going to bed so I won't do a full response but all I'm going to say is this regarding the bold:

Rebounding: Really how important is rebounding for a PG. I rather have the PG be ready for an outlet to initiate a possible fast break then to get in and rebound when the bigs should be doing that.

Passing: You can't be serious. If you actually believe that then you either don't know Nash at all or are just a complete hater for whatever reason.

Player: What? Not even a skill or attribute of basketball just you realizing listing 3 things wasn't enough so you tagged that on with the other 3 even though one of them really doesn't matter and the one is completely false.
:oldlol: Debating rebounding's importance? If he didnt rebound on those Net teams, he wasnt going to win. Its that simple. He had to throw himself in there to help out his pitiful bigs.

Passing? Where does this thought originate from that Kidd is nowhere near the level of Nash as a passer? What is Nash doing that Kidd hasnt? Is he using the force to pass the ball now?

[Cyclone112]

:oldlol: Debating rebounding's importance? If he didnt rebound on those Net teams, he wasnt going to win. Its that simple. He had to throw himself in there to help out his pitiful bigs.

Passing? Where does this thought originate from that Kidd is nowhere near the level of Nash as a passer? What is Nash doing that Kidd hasnt? Is he using the force to pass the ball now?

Rebounding importance of a PG is what I'm talking about and yes the Nets needed it but they are one of the rare exceptions of teams that are so desperate for rebounding that Kidd was perfect for them. Take out the handful of teams that need that and a PG that can rebound is not very important.

Where did I say Kidd was a bad passer, all I said is Nash is clearly the better passer and you are definitely in the minority of people believing Kidd is the better passer.

[Myth]

http://i46.tinypic.com/svgg0o.gif

(This is going to be the most overused Gif on ISH lmao)

It will be perfect for people being e-thugs.

[JtotheIzzo]

the most annoying shit about these threads, other than the OP, is the same BS arguments (about 20% have SOME merit, 80% are nonsense) are wrong, and I have pointed out the mistakes or misunderstandings in other Nash related threads.

yet people keep coming back with them. this is textbook stupidity, arguing something that has already been shown to be wrong.

I will not get roped into this troll's little rant.

[Niquesports]

the most annoying shit about these threads, other than the OP, is the same BS arguments (about 20% have SOME merit, 80% are nonsense) are wrong, and I have pointed out the mistakes or misunderstandings in other Nash related threads.

yet people keep coming back with them. this is textbook stupidity, arguing something that has already been shown to be wrong.

I will not get roped into this troll's little rant.

You would have to be foolish to say Nash isnt a very good player. Where this stops at is him being a two time MVP that puts him in a select class of players that i dont think he matches up with. Now thats not his fault and although there were others that could have won the MVP those years it isnt like Nash wasnt deserving also. Nash is a True PG in the same fashion as players like
Kidd
Stockton
Cheeks
those kind of players depend on there teammates for there sucess because they are looking to pass first. Players like Wade,Isiah, Iverson, Payton these are scoreing PG they are a little more suited for leading a team.
With all this being said I rank Nash as a bottom half top 15 PG . I just dont see him leading that Sixer team to a finals like Iverson did or that Nets team like Kidd his game is not made up like that.

[Floppy]

You know Deron is thinking "I can't believe I let this D-bag win." haha. You can see it on his face.

-Smak
You should seek a shrink.

[JtotheIzzo]

You would have to be foolish to say Nash isnt a very good player. Where this stops at is him being a two time MVP that puts him in a select class of players that i dont think he matches up with. Now thats not his fault and although there were others that could have won the MVP those years it isnt like Nash wasnt deserving also. Nash is a True PG in the same fashion as players like
Kidd
Stockton
Cheeks
those kind of players depend on there teammates for there sucess because they are looking to pass first. Players like Wade,Isiah, Iverson, Payton these are scoreing PG they are a little more suited for leading a team.
With all this being said I rank Nash as a bottom half top 15 PG . I just dont see him leading that Sixer team to a finals like Iverson did or that Nets team like Kidd his game is not made up like that.

LOL

Iverson's Sixers and Kidd's Nets probably don't get out of the first round int he 05 or 06 WC playoffs.

[Niquesports]

LOL

Iverson's Sixers and Kidd's Nets probably don't get out of the first round int he 05 or 06 WC playoffs.


Maybe and wouldn't make the playoffs if they had Nash instead of Iverson or Kidd in the WC

[Shepseskaf]

This much is true.

Compare him to the great point guards in history,

Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Robertson, etc,

and he simply does not match up in any way, shape or form.

The absolute worst of multiple winning MVPs.

Neither was even deserved.
Couldn't agree more.

I'll always contend that both MVPs were all about saving the league's image in the wake of the Palace Malice.

Nash is the most unworthy holder of an MVP in league history. The fact that he has two just adds to the travesty. The award took a huge hit in credibility, that's only starting to rebuild now.

[Cermet]

You know Deron is thinking "I can't believe I let this D-bag win." haha. You can see it on his face.

-Smak

This was before the start you dipsh-it

[EricForman]

I have a request.

Since the Suns will probably give away Amare, let's see what Nash does with the squad after. If they still keep their winning (not winning big, but still winning) pace and the Suns finishes with 46-50 wins without Amare the second half of the season... can you Nash detractors, aka Kobe fanboys or racist mofos, stop your b*tching for, say, two months?

Can we go two months without starting the same broken record thread about how Nash stole MVPs from Kobe and Shaq for a while if he still maintains a respectable pace without Amare? This cast can't possibly be consider good once Amare is gone, right?

(Nevermind that Nash already won 52 and went to WCF without Amare before, he'll do it once more time just to feed you idiots "shut up juice" once more)

[Niquesports]

I have a request.

Since the Suns will probably give away Amare, let's see what Nash does with the squad after. If they still keep their winning (not winning big, but still winning) pace and the Suns finishes with 46-50 wins without Amare the second half of the season... can you Nash detractors, aka Kobe fanboys or racist mofos, stop your b*tching for, say, two months?

Can we go two months without starting the same broken record thread about how Nash stole MVPs from Kobe and Shaq for a while if he still maintains a respectable pace without Amare? This cast can't possibly be consider good once Amare is gone, right?

(Nevermind that Nash already won 52 and went to WCF without Amare before, he'll do it once more time just to feed you idiots "shut up juice" once more)


Ok Nash fanboy if he leads his team to a WCF w/o Amare yes he would get some credit but until he leads a team to at least a Finals yes he is overrated with 2 MVP's and no Finals. I cant name another MVP that has never made a finals.

[EricForman]

Ok Nash fanboy if he leads his team to a WCF w/o Amare yes he would get some credit but until he leads a team to at least a Finals yes he is overrated with 2 MVP's and no Finals. I cant name another MVP that has never made a finals.


WCF in the stacked west against Kobe and his supercast (and now Dirk has one) is unfair. If the Suns continue their winning pace and finishes anywhere above 46, 47 wins with this cast (after Amare is gone) is accomplishment enough.

You Nash detractors are a broken f*cking record. Okay, so Nash has never made the finals. But he lost to the eventual champs in 05 and 07 and 06 his team was ravaged by injuries. Gotta look at things in context. This isn't like, Kobe stinking up the joint in 04 with the superior cast now. This is Nash, balling like the best (or second best) player on the court, but falling short to a better team. And in the case of the Spurs, a 4 ring team led by top ten player in his prime.

Should Nash take some blame for the losses? Should it hurt his legacy a bit? Perhaps. But only a hater would make it sound like he's such a huge failure because of it.

[phoenix18]

Rebounding importance of a PG is what I'm talking about and yes the Nets needed it but they are one of the rare exceptions of teams that are so desperate for rebounding that Kidd was perfect for them. Take out the handful of teams that need that and a PG that can rebound is not very important.

Where did I say Kidd was a bad passer, all I said is Nash is clearly the better passer and you are definitely in the minority of people believing Kidd is the better passer.

Please explain to me how Nash is on another level when it comes to passing.

[Deadpool]

I didn't feel like reading all the posts here but the dude is basically saying that Dan Marino was overrated as well?

[Niquesports]

WCF in the stacked west against Kobe and his supercast (and now Dirk has one) is unfair. If the Suns continue their winning pace and finishes anywhere above 46, 47 wins with this cast (after Amare is gone) is accomplishment enough.

You Nash detractors are a broken f*cking record. Okay, so Nash has never made the finals. But he lost to the eventual champs in 05 and 07 and 06 his team was ravaged by injuries. Gotta look at things in context. This isn't like, Kobe stinking up the joint in 04 with the superior cast now. This is Nash, balling like the best (or second best) player on the court, but falling short to a better team. And in the case of the Spurs, a 4 ring team led by top ten player in his prime.

Should Nash take some blame for the losses? Should it hurt his legacy a bit? Perhaps. But only a hater would make it sound like he's such a huge failure because of it.


Wouldn't say anyone saying he is a faliure he's taking 2 MVPs and will be a first ballot HOFer it would be nice to see Nash get traded to someone like Clev or even Boston to finsih his career with a chance at winning a ring alas Gary payton. The only knock on Nash is he is the only MVP that I can think of that has never played in a finals that stands out . It would be different if he was just 1 of the many or 1 of 5 but being the only one makes you go Hmmmmmmm.

[EricForman]

Wouldn't say anyone saying he is a faliure he's taking 2 MVPs and will be a first ballot HOFer it would be nice to see Nash get traded to someone like Clev or even Boston to finsih his career with a chance at winning a ring alas Gary payton. The only knock on Nash is he is the only MVP that I can think of that has never played in a finals that stands out . It would be different if he was just 1 of the many or 1 of 5 but being the only one makes you go Hmmmmmmm.




So Nash is the only MVP winner to never made the finals, he's also the only over 35 point guard to drop double doubles and shoot 90/50/40. So these "only player to do so and so" works both ways. We can twist and turn criteria to apply these "so and so to never do this and that" on EVERYONE.

Example: Kobe is the only player to play with three first ballot hall of famers and lose a playoff series to a team with probably no hall of famers.

There isn't some magic barrier that says someone making the finals must be better than someone who hasnt made it. So if player A leads his team to 56+ wins for a decade but loses in the WCF every year, are his accomplishments not as good as someone who went to the finals once and then has been on lottery teams and lost in the first round a 5 years?

Sure, his failure to get over the hump will be factored later when ranking players. Say, if Chris Paul carries his team to the finals one day then that certainly works to his advantage in a Chris Paul vs Nash argument, but Nash doesn't magically become a joke or not as good as he is because of it.

[El Seano]

No, he's probably one of the best point guards ever, not the best but certainly up there in terms of things. Sure he didn't deserve back to back MVP's but he deserves every bit of praise he receives as is every bit as good as people say. Whilst he may be a player suited to a system, he's a very good player suited to a system. The system doesn't make the passes for him or put the ball in the net for him.

[Niquesports]

So Nash is the only MVP winner to never made the finals, he's also the only over 35 point guard to drop double doubles and shoot 90/50/40. So these "only player to do so and so" works both ways. We can twist and turn criteria to apply these "so and so to never do this and that" on EVERYONE.

Example: Kobe is the only player to play with three first ballot hall of famers and lose a playoff series to a team with probably no hall of famers.

There isn't some magic barrier that says someone making the finals must be better than someone who hasnt made it. So if player A leads his team to 56+ wins for a decade but loses in the WCF every year, are his accomplishments not as good as someone who went to the finals once and then has been on lottery teams and lost in the first round a 5 years?

Sure, his failure to get over the hump will be factored later when ranking players. Say, if Chris Paul carries his team to the finals one day then that certainly works to his advantage in a Chris Paul vs Nash argument, but Nash doesn't magically become a joke or not as good as he is because of it.


UR getting too sensitive with this and showing your subjectiveness in topic. Russell isnt considered by some the greatest C of all time because of no other reason but his winning his stats would have him like a top 20 at best.
The only thing that really seperates MJ from Dominique is there will and desire to win It silly to make silly comparison how many MVp's have been on lottery teams for 5 years? Ok Kobe has an off year while playing with 2 past there prime future HOFers. As far as the Piustons not having any I would say there players are as good as the 70's Knicks with the exception of Frazier times have changed and less players get in . I think Nash is a great PG maybe a top 5 pure PG of all time but as a over all player he isnt on tier with other 2 time or more MVp's maybe the league was just weak when he won

[Cermet]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...
Oh really..gues what...
Kobe is a rapist
Garnet is a psycho
Sheed is a retard
Trevor Ariza is an a-sshole

[Cyclone112]

Ok Nash fanboy if he leads his team to a WCF w/o Amare yes he would get some credit but until he leads a team to at least a Finals yes he is overrated with 2 MVP's and no Finals. I cant name another MVP that has never made a finals.

He's already done that, in 06 he took the Mavs to 6 games in the WCF without Amare for the entire year. I think it would be safe to assume with Amare there is a good chance they make the finals and the douches in this thread wouldn't have anything to hold on to.

AI and Kidd would never have a finals appearance if they were in the west with those teams either so why do they get so much credit for making the finals when the East has been notoriously weak for most of the decade.

[NBASTATMAN]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...


:lol

If anyone is overrated its Amare..

[Lebron23]

How can you hate on Steve Nash? He's the nicest player in the NBA.

Steve Nash is averaging 18 ppg and 11 apg at the age of 36 yrs.old. Last night he beat the young guys in the NBA Skills Challenge.

He might now win an NBA title, but Real NBA Fans will remember him as the best PG in this decade.

Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Gervin, Stockton never won an NBA Championship, but they are still regarded as some of the best players in NBA History.

[KB24Fan]

:lol

If anyone is overrated its Amare..

TRUE!!! LOOK AT DIAW...

[Go Getter]

WCF in the stacked west against Kobe and his supercast (and now Dirk has one) is unfair. If the Suns continue their winning pace and finishes anywhere above 46, 47 wins with this cast (after Amare is gone) is accomplishment enough.

You Nash detractors are a broken f*cking record. Okay, so Nash has never made the finals. But he lost to the eventual champs in 05 and 07 and 06 his team was ravaged by injuries. Gotta look at things in context. This isn't like, Kobe stinking up the joint in 04 with the superior cast now. This is Nash, balling like the best (or second best) player on the court, but falling short to a better team. And in the case of the Spurs, a 4 ring team led by top ten player in his prime.

Should Nash take some blame for the losses? Should it hurt his legacy a bit? Perhaps. But only a hater would make it sound like he's such a huge failure because of it.


Chauncey Billups and TD led their teams past a stacked Kobe/Lakers

[mxgt]

How can you hate on Steve Nash? He's the nicest player in the NBA.


And arguably the funniest!

[Go Getter]

:oldlol: Debating rebounding's importance? If he didnt rebound on those Net teams, he wasnt going to win. Its that simple. He had to throw himself in there to help out his pitiful bigs.

Passing? Where does this thought originate from that Kidd is nowhere near the level of Nash as a passer? What is Nash doing that Kidd hasnt? Is he using the force to pass the ball now?

:cheers:


Once he said rebounding isn't important he disqualified himself from any intelligent basketball ocnversation.

[KB24Fan]

:cheers:


Once he said rebounding isn't important he disqualified himself from any intelligent basketball ocnversation.

IDIOTS GET CAUGHT UP IN ALL THE GLITZ & GLAM OF THE LEAGUE DON'T RESPECT THE TRUE ASPECTS OF THE GAME DEFENSE & REBOUNDING.

[Myth]

How can you hate on Steve Nash? He's the nicest player in the NBA.

I've been torn for a while on how I feel about him. I have often rooted against him because of the overrating he has received (especially the 2 MVPs). I also don't think he is as funny as he seems to think he is. However, he does seem like a genuinely nice guy and I do get a chuckle every once in a while from his antics (his flexing last night was my favorite Nash moment).

[Go Getter]

Nash is no less a defender than alot of starting PGs, hell he isn't less a defender than alot of star guards.

His defensive defeciencies are one of the only things OVERRATED about Steve Nash.

Yeah, he lost one year. Are you even insinuating Steve Nash isn't a skilled PG or more skilled than Derrick Rose (as a Rose fan I can clearly admit Nash is 10x more skilled) because he lost a FUGAZY skills "competition"?

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Nash is not 10 times more skilled that Rose gtfoh. I was commenting on another post that gave Nash a lot of credit for winning a silly competition. So I asked if they gave D Rose that much credit when he beat Nash in the comp last year.

Is steve a better defender than D Wills? Rondo? CP3? Billups?

Tell me what starting PG worth his salt has worse defense.

[Go Getter]

IDIOTS GET CAUGHT UP IN ALL THE GLITZ & GLAM OF THE LEAGUE DON'T RESPECT THE TRUE ASPECTS OF THE GAME DEFENSE & REBOUNDING.


I'd rather have a player who has a shaky jumpshot than shaky defense.

[D.J.]

How can you hate on Steve Nash? He's the nicest player in the NBA.


He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. I had the pleasure of meeting him. People hate his game, not his personality.



Steve Nash is averaging 18 ppg and 11 apg at the age of 36 yrs.old. Last night he beat the young guys in the NBA Skills Challenge.


He's one of the best conditioned athletes of all-time. It doesn't translate to wins.



He might now win an NBA title, but Real NBA Fans will remember him as the best PG in this decade.


Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, and Allen Iverson(though he was listed as a shooting guard) would all have something to say about that.



Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Gervin, Stockton never won an NBA Championship, but they are still regarded as some of the best players in NBA History.


And all but Gervin made the Finals as the go to guy.

[Cyclone112]

:cheers:


Once he said rebounding isn't important he disqualified himself from any intelligent basketball ocnversation.

Yes, you, KB24Fan, KAJ=GOAT and the rest of the pre-teen Kobe lovers have intelligent conversation :oldlol: It's funny how you all just completely avoid any of my posts where I actually use a supporting argument like stats, analysis etc and just indirectly pick at the odd thing which I already explained. Maybe one day you'll be actually intelligent enough to grasp such simple concepts and provide a proper retort but until then you are just an obvious pre-teen that knows nothing of basketball.

I agree rebounding for PG's is crucial, why have the point guard out on the wing waiting for an outlook to start a fast break when we can have him attempt to get a defensive rebound when 95% of teams don't need it and actually have proper big men for that.

It must also be crucial that a center be able to hit 3 pointers as otherwise their offensive game is limited and the floor doesn't get spread out as much. I guess Shaq and Tim Duncan are less skilled offensively then Bargnani and would be top3 all time if it weren't for that.

[Go Getter]

Yes, you, KB24Fan, KAJ=GOAT and the rest of the pre-teen Kobe lovers have intelligent conversation :oldlol: It's funny how you all just completely avoid any of my posts where I actually use a supporting argument like stats, analysis etc and just indirectly pick at the odd thing which I already explained. Maybe one day you'll be actually intelligent enough to grasp such simple concepts and provide a proper retort but until then you are just an obvious pre-teen that knows nothing of basketball.

I agree rebounding for PG's is crucial, why have the point guard out on the wing waiting for an outlook to start a fast break when we can have him attempt to get a defensive rebound when 95% of teams don't need it and actually have proper big men for that.

It must also be crucial that a center be able to hit 3 pointers as otherwise their offensive game is limited and the floor doesn't get spread out as much. I guess Shaq and Tim Duncan are less skilled offensively then Bargnani and would be top3 all time if it weren't for that.

FAIL.

I'm a Bulls fan not a Kobe stan.

Nash is a one way player and overrated.

[raptorfan_dr07]

A Kobe fan calling Steve Nash the most overrated player ever. That's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it. :rolleyes: You have NO credibility to call ANYONE overrated.

And don't mind KAJ=GOAT. He's a known Nash hater, fake Laker fan, and Kobe n*thugger all in one. Although I kinda lean toward Shaq in 2005, I think Nash did deserve his 2006 MVP.

[Lebron23]

A Kobe fan calling Steve Nash the most overrated player ever. That's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it. :rolleyes: You have NO credibility to call ANYONE overrated.

And don't mind KAJ=GOAT. He's a known Nash hater, fake Laker fan, and Kobe n*thugger all in one. Although I kinda lean toward Shaq in 2005, I think Nash did deserve his 2006 MVP.

KAj=GOAt/Desperado = Most annoying poster in this forum.

[Zan Tabak]

Hate on Nash's defense all you want. It's what he brings on the offensive end that separates him from everyone else.

The guy is possibly the greatest play making PG of all time.

[Johnni Gade]

Nash overrated? Don't hate

[Cyclone112]

FAIL.

I'm a Bulls fan not a Kobe stan.

Nash is a one way player and overrated.

Case in point. Find one thing I said to pick at then say something retarded. Keep it up.

[andgar923]

There is no way that this guy should be put in the HOF he's a system point guard. He's no different than a college quarterback in a pass happy offense he gives you numbers thats it.... He's NEVER going to win a championship he has 2 MVPs that you can argue someone else could have one...
He had 1 Great Season & Post season that was in 04-05 what else has he done....
Just Venting...

LOL @ kobe fans

This is almost as funny as those "Magic is overrated" rants by some in their cult.