Averaging a triple double in the finals: will it ever be done and who came close

[Roundball_Rock]

Will anyone ever average a triple double in the finals? These are the guys who came close. There is some subjectivity involved so feel free to add other performances. I automatically eliminated anyone who had a “6” or lower in any category and they needed at least an “8” or “9” in one category (2014 edit: "8" or "9" in one of either assists or rebounds) to make this list so something like 25/7/7 would not make the cut. In theory I will exclude anyone who did not reach the double digits in any category, but I doubt there will be anyone with 9/9/9. If I find a player like that I will mention him at the end of the post separately.

Unfortunately basketball reference's finals' box scores go back only to 1970. Does anyone know if Wilt or Russell came close in the 60's?

I did the list chronologically.

Jason Kidd

21/7/10

Clyde Drexler

21.5/9.5/7

Scottie Pippen

21/9/8

21/8/8

21/9/7

Michael Jordan

31/7/11

Magic Johnson

19/8/12

26/8/13

18/7/14

18/8/14

19/8/13

16/11/8

21.5/11/9

Larry Bird

24/9.7/9.5

15/15/7

John Johnson

12/8/7

Walt Frazier

23/8/8

18/8/10

Some thoughts and notes:

*Magic Johnson :bowdown:
*Extra credit for the players who did this while playing great defenses as well, i.e. Kidd, Pippen, and Jordan.
*Props to Bird for coming closest with 24/9.7/9.5. If you round he did it but this question came up last year with Rondo in the first round and I believe the consensus was rounding does not equal a real triple double.
*Every player on this list is a clear-cut HOFer, with the exception of John Johnson and as you can see his near-triple double was not anywhere near the caliber of what the others did.
*Only four players, Magic, Bird, Pippen, and Frazier appear on this list multiple times.
*If you combine Bird, Pippen, and Frazier they still do not surpass Magic's total!
*The center who came closest was Shaq, but he had "only" 6 assists per game

Just a :applause: for these players performing at such a high level in an all-around way at the highest level.

Edit:

Wilt

19/28.5/7

2014 update

LeBron James

12' LeBron 29/10/7
13' LeBron 25/11/7

[lakerspng]

Magic :bowdown: pure talent and skill, add to it his charisma and competitive nature. there will never be another player like him.

[boozehound]

well, bird's one finals rounds up to a triple double.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Michael Jordan

31/7/11

Most impressive one, IMO ...

Especially knowing he was his team's best defender as well.

If this was a triple double stat line ...

:pimp:

[Rekindled]

bird was the closest

[Alhazred]

*Extra credit for the players who did this while playing great defenses as well, i.e. Kidd, Pippen, and Jordan.

Just wanted to throw Frazier's name in there, too. Dude was the top defensive guard of his time while dropping 36 points and 19 assists on Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain in 71. :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Michael Jordan

31/7/11

Most impressive one, IMO ...

It is either that one or Bird's, but I give MJ the edge based on defense. You made a great point about Jordan being his team's best defender that year (1991) and he was primarily assigned to guard Magic Johnson. His assists meant he also was his team's primary playmaker in that series. We all know about his scoring so there is no need to say anything in that regard. On top of all this Jordan found the time and energy to chip in 7 boards a game as a guard! :bowdown:

Yeah, Bird was the closest. Magic Johnson also came very close in 1980 (21.5/11/9).

Pippen deserves recognition as well. His assists were deflated by the triangle so something like 21/9.5/9.5 certainly would be feasible for him under a normal offensive scheme.

I am surprised Magic never did it. The closest he came was as a rookie. His rebounding fell off after his first two finals, though, for whatever reason.

Does anyone think we will see a player pull this off? Can Lebron do it? I can see him getting double digit assists. The hard part for him would be getting double digit rebounds. If anyone playing today can do it, though, it is Lebron. He is averaging something like 30/8/8 right now so it would not take much of an improvement over the course of a few games to get to double digits in rebounding and assists. With Jamison in town Lebron's assists should rise, although his scoring should decrease a bit.

[gotbacon23]

Unfortunately basketball reference's finals' box scores go back only to 1970. Does anyone know if Wilt or Russell came close in the 60's?

i doubt it. for one, it was harder to get assists back then and for 2 blocks and steals weren't tracked (russell and wilt were probably more likely to get a pts/rebs/blks triple double, i'd imagine).

also keep in , mind that from '59-60 through '69-70, guy rodgers and oscar robertson were the only two players in the whole league to average 10+ apg for even ONE season.

oh and this website has box scores for nba finals from '47 onward, however the box scores pre-1970 only have points, shooting, and fouls for most games. some games have full stats (for instance, russell put up 23 points, 25 rebounds, and 10 assists on 10 for 11 shooting in game 2 of 1965... nasty)

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/home.htm

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

what team had the most triple doubles in one game? how about double doubles?

[Roundball_Rock]

Sweet find! :cheers: It has some composite box scores as well, such as for 67'.

Yeah, it was harder to get assists back then. I don't think either did it but I would not be surprised if one came close. I just checked 67' Wilt and he had 18/28.5/7 so Wilt joins the list in the OP.

[Alhazred]

I am surprised Magic never did it. The closest he came was as a rookie. His rebounding fell off after his first two finals, though, for whatever reason.

Magic was actually assigned to play forward a lot his first few years in the league and switched between positions during games. After a few years he grew into being more of a pure point guard. From NBA.com:

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19791980.html


Johnson was the hands-down choice as series MVP. "What position did I play?" Magic responded to reporters afterward. "Well, I played center, a little forward, some guard. I tried to think up a name for it, but the best I could come up with was CFG-Rover."

Hope that helps explain it.


Does anyone think we will see a player pull this off? Can Lebron do it?

Certainly, under the right circumstances. I can definitely see him going 30/8/8 at the very least.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Pippen deserves recognition as well. His assists were deflated by the triangle so something like 21/9.5/9.5 certainly would be feasible for him under a normal offensive scheme.

His assists were NOT deflated by the triangle, they were aided by it (unlike other, better passer/playmakers like Jordan/Kobe). Most of Pippen's assists were system assists, and he wouldn't get those in a freelance system because he lacked high-level playmaking ability (relatively speaking). He also benefitted from having a 32 ppg/51% FG scorer to pass it to for guaranteed buckets. This is why his assists dropped from 6.2/7.0/6.3 in '91-'93 to 5.6 in 1994. If you really think Pippen would come close to 21/9.5/9.5 in a freewheeling system, you're crazy.

[Alhazred]

His assists were NOT deflated by the triangle, they were aided by it (unlike other, better passer/playmakers like Jordan/Kobe). Most of Pippen's assists were system assists, and he wouldn't get those in a freelance system because he lacked high-level playmaking ability (relatively speaking). He also benefitted from having a 32 ppg/51% FG scorer to pass it to for guaranteed buckets. This is why his assists dropped from 6.2/7.0/6.3 in '91-'93 to 5.6 in 1994. If you really think Pippen would come close to 21/9.5/9.5 in a freewheeling system, you're crazy.

Peak Scottie(1991-96) could do it, I think. With the right team and system, I mean, like maybe the 90s Sonics. Also, he did get his fair share of assists in Houston and Portland.

[Roundball_Rock]

If you really think Pippen would come close to 21/9.5/9.5 in a freewheeling system, you're crazy.

:lol at the agenda. In every thread where Pippen is even mentioned. I was talking about those numbers over the course of one series, not in a season. He averaged 8 assists in the NBA finals twice. Even you once acknowledged he could muster an extra 1.5 assists outside the triangle. The last time I checked, 8+1.5=9.5.


Most of Pippen's assists were system assists,

Another Jordan fan who did not watch Pippen in Portland, where he had his best season in terms of assists at 70 years old, although his raw numbers were down due to less minutes and pace. In percentage of a team's assists he accounted for he had his best season there; in terms of assists per 36 minutes he tied what he did at age 26. Adjusting for pace (89.3 versus 94.4), minutes his best season regarding assists came in 2002, not 1992.


. This is why his assists dropped from 6.2/7.0/6.3 in '91-'93 to 5.6 in 1994.

Why didn't you mention pace or what happened to his assists when Mikey returned? 5.9, 5.7, and 5.8 from 96'-98'. In other words, there was no significant difference in his assists when Jordan came back compared to 94'.

All this and Jordan's record remains what it is...

http://erroraccessdenied.com/files/images/you_still_mad.jpg

[ShaqAttack3234]

Nice thread and it'll probably be done sooner or later. Kidd did it in the ECF, I believe and looking at how many times Magic came close, how close Jordan came while scoring 30+ and defending Magic and looking at how close Scottie came three times as well as Bird who missed it by half arebound or assist ro less. Lebron is the most likely candidate. The points and assists can easily reach double figures for Lebron and his rebounds are typically in the 7-8 game range, but it's not hard to see him putting together a series with 10+, particularly playing 45 or so minutes.

[madmax]

Lebron is gonna do it, maybe even this year with a capable teammates arround him

[Bodhi]

Another Jordan fan who did not watch Pippen in Portland, where he had his best season in terms of assists at 70 years old, although his raw numbers were down due to less minutes and pace. In percentage of a team's assists he accounted for he had his best season there; in terms of assists per 36 minutes he tied what he did at age 26. Adjusting for pace (89.3 versus 94.4), minutes his best season regarding assists came in 2002, not 1992.

But in the year the Blazers actually contended, Pippen's assists did not noticeably change. It took the Blazers falling out of contention for Pippen's assists to rise. Everyone can bring up numbers that contradict the others point. I don't think there's good proof either way.

[Roundball_Rock]

But in the year the Blazers actually contended, Pippen's assists did not noticeably change. It took the Blazers falling out of contention for Pippen's assists to rise. Everyone can bring up numbers that contradict the others point. I don't think there's good proof either way.

No, it took Pippen being inserted as the full-time PG (second half of 2002 and 2003) for his assists to rise. He shared playmaking duties with Stoudamire in 2000. What is the argument here? He averaged 5.0 while sharing those duties in 00'. Ok. That means he would have averaged even more had he been the full-time primary playmaker on that team. (the reason Pip was made the PG was Pippen was a pass first, make my teammates better guy...)

How about Houston? He left Mikey and his assists increased, albeit by only a tenth. How can this be, though, if he was getting system and Mikey assists?

Regarding contention, look at Portland's record in 2002 and 2003 with Pippen as PG (top 5 record-wise in the league). Too bad Pippen got hurt at the end of the 03' season. They were rolling at 38-16 with him at PG (38-16=58 wins over 82 games), after starting the season 3-6 before he became the PG. When he got hurt they went 8-9 and Pip never recovered, although he did have one more clutch 4th quarter fresh off riding a bike for much of the game to lead a come from behind win to stave off elimination in Game 5. Technically, though, you are correct. It took Portland sucking for Pippen to be made the PG and a consequence of that was a rise in his assists.

[Bodhi]

No, it took Pippen being inserted as the full-time PG (second half of 2002 and 2003) for his assists to rise. He shared playmaking duties with Stoudamire in 2000. What is the argument here? He averaged 5.0 while sharing those duties in 00'. Ok. That means he would have averaged even more had he been the full-time primary playmaker on that team. (the reason Pip was made the PG was Pippen was a pass first, make my teammates better guy...)

Okay in 2003 Scottie Pippen averaged very few assists so I'm not sure how they rose when he played pg and in 2002 I looked at his splits and I'm not sure when he started playing PG but it didn't make a difference on his assists.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01/splits/2002/



How about Houston? He left Mikey and his assists increased, albeit by only a tenth. How can this be, though, if he was getting system and Mikey assists?.

Okay, this is perfectly fair, I wasn't the one that said that the system is what got Pippen assists. However I do agree that playing in the triangle would not have hindered his assists the same way it hindered Jordan and Kobe. Jordan's assists dropped from 8 to 6.3 when the Bulls picked up the triangle whereas Pippen's didn't noticably change when he played in a different system.

Remember, you claimed that everyone could agree at Pippen's assists would rise by 1.5 outside of the triangle.


Regarding contention, look at Portland's record in 2002 and 2003 with Pippen as PG (top 5 record-wise in the league). Too bad Pippen got hurt at the end of the 03' season. They were rolling at 38-16 with him at PG (38-16=58 wins over 82 games), after starting the season 3-6 before he became the PG. When he got hurt they went 8-9 and Pip never recovered, although he did have one more clutch 4th quarter to lead a come from behind win to stave off elimination in Game 5.

Exactly, they contended in 2003 and his assists dropped.

And I don't care nearly enough about about Pippen and Jordan to reply after this.

[Roundball_Rock]

Okay in 2003 Scottie Pippen averaged very few assists so I'm not sure how they rose when he played pg and in 2002

5.0 (2000)
4.6
5.9
4.5

Per 36 minutes: 5.3, 5.0, 6.5, 5.4

Why the big jump in 2002? Did he become a better passer than he ever was at age 36? Or was he getting more easy assists via 36 year old speed penetration?


Jordan's assists dropped from 8 to 6.3 when the Bulls picked up the triangle

You are ignoring roles again. He averaged 8 as PG. Of course his assists would decline when he was again playing SG and sharing more of the playmaking duties with another player (Pippen).


Exactly, they contended in 2003 and his assists dropped.

?

Their record with him in 02' (39-21, good enough for #5 in the L over 82 games) was on par with their record with him in 03'. I fail to see what connection contention has here.

In 2002 he became the PG around mid-season. What was Portland's record in the first half of the season? 25-23. What did they do in the second half? 24-10.


And I don't care nearly enough about any of the players involved to reply after this.

Fair enough. It is a shame another thread had to be tainted by the MJ agenda. I am more responding to that than you per se since a lot of people here buy the myths bitter fans of a certain retired player are selling on Pippen, even if they are flat out absurd like the one in this thread. What is your argument, though?

*Pippen was the one player whose assists were INFLATED by the triangle? Jordan, Kobe, BJ Armstrong, Kukoc, Derek Fisher and Lamar Odom all averaged more assists outside the triangle. So did Pippen (adjusting for pace and minutes--never mind looking at injuries, age, etc.), but we are in the land of Jordanian make believe so we are pretending Portland never happened. Who got in the triangle and suddenly began having career years in assists?

*Pippen was somehow stat-whoring assists at the expense of his team, even though the clear trend in his career is the more he had the ball the better his teams did?

The bottom line is this discussion should not be happening if the claims made by OSB are accurate. His assists should have plummeted without Mikey and then plummeted even more without both Mikey and the triangle.

You are comparing his numbers at face value while ignoring age, injuries, pace, and roles. To sum it up: his best passing season came at age 36 as PG outside the triangle and when Mikey was in Washington. If he did that well at age 36 and after half a dozen surgeries common sense dictates that had he played in that offensive scheme while in his prime he would have averaged more assists. It is easier to make plays as a 20+ ppg scorer than it is as a 11 ppg guy. Pip got a lot of assists via penetration and kicking the ball out to an open man. He wasn't exactly blazing fast or amazing athletically by age 36.


Remember, you claimed that everyone could agree at Pippen's assists would rise by 1.5 outside of the triangle.

That was from another thread and I was referring to OSB--Jordan's biggest fan/Pippen's biggest detractor--saying Pippen could average 8.5 assists a few times outside the triangle. Obviously a statement like that assumes he is in his prime, has the same offensive role he had in Chicago or in Portland in 2002 and 2003, etc. Pippen in 99' was hardly the same player as Pippen in 98' due to a devastating back injury (just ask Pip himself) nor did he have the same role in Houston's offense that he had in Chicago. He was the primary playmaker but that was it. He was used primarily as a spot up shooter in Houston's interior oriented offense. Given how he got a lot of his assists and his injury, comparing his Houston numbers is a poor comparison. Still, the fact that his assists actually rose is very telling. He was an inferior player, had less opportunities with the ball, yet averaged more assists outside the triangle and without Mikey?


playing in the triangle would not have hindered his assists the same way it hindered Jordan and Kobe.

Kobe's career high in assists is 6.0; his career high in the triangle is 5.9. The year Jackson and the triangle left his assists rose from 5.1 to 6.0. It isn't as if his assists dramatically increased. What hindered Kobe and Jordan's assists is shooting 25-30 times every single night. :lol

A related trivia question

Who led the Dream Team in assists?

A) Clyde Drexler
B) Magic Johnson
C) Michael Jordan
D) Scottie Pippen

[Fatal9]

:oldlol: at system assists. wow. did you ever pay attention to Pippen at all? Pippen's role, as well as the role of ANY primary ballhandler/playmaker in the triangle, is to initiate the ball movement, not collect assists. The triangle is not a one pass system (ie. primary playmaker dumps off ball and someone shoots). Pippen would usually be the first or second passer in the "system", not the last. He actually has had more "hockey assists" than real assists, because of his role in the triangle. No need to underrate his passing skills. Pippen was an excellent penetrate and kick type of passer, and his interior passing game was good too. Combine that with his unselfishness, which naturally gives you more assists, and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:oldlol: at system assists. wow. did you ever pay attention to Pippen at all? Pippen's role, as well as the role of ANY primary ballhandler/playmaker in the triangle, is to initiate the ball movement, not collect assists. The triangle is not a one pass system (ie. primary playmaker dumps off ball and someone shoots). Pippen would usually be the first or second passer in the "system", not the last. He actually has had more "hockey assists" than real assists, because of his role in the triangle. No need to underrate his passing skills. Pippen was an excellent penetrate and kick type of passer, and his interior passing game was good too. Combine that with his unselfishness, which naturally gives you more assists, and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

Well said. Pippen was one of the best passing/playmaking forwards ever.

[branslowski]

:applause: Atleast Loki did a great job in hiding his agenda....:rolleyes:


Im also pretty sure that LeBron can do this.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Wilt

19/28.5/7


During the 1967 playoffs:

Averaged 22 points, 29 rebounds, 9 assists, shooting 58% from the field, 39% from the FT line, while playing 48 minutes per game.

[GiveItToBurrito]

Rondo could do it if he's being guarded by Fisher. Lebron could do it depending on matchups; against LA no, but he could put up 30 10 and 10 against Dallas or Denver, especially if he plays 45+ minutes.

[Jasper]

i was surprised about Clyde frazier .. saw those games , and it sure didn't seem like he did everything :D

I think Pip could of , but the extra board or assist was just missed.

Kuddo's to Majic - his height , ball handles all were on his side for the best chance.

I'd say if the right consequences in a series and team , I'd think Bron has a shot at it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

and then put him in a system with less ball movement, there is no reason he can't average 9 assists a game for a season.

Did you mean series, not season? Because lol if not. :oldlol:


5.0 (2000)
4.6
5.9
4.5

Per 36 minutes: 5.3, 5.0, 6.5, 5.4

Why the big jump in 2002? Did he become a better passer than he ever was at age 36? Or was he getting more easy assists via 36 year old speed penetration?


He was averaging 10 ppg at that point of his career, so of course his assists are going to go up. It's a very different thing to average 20-23 ppg and 9.5 apg than it is to average 10 ppg and 9.5 apg. If you want to assert that '92-'96 Pippen could have averaged 9.5 apg over a series while averaging 10-15 ppg (not 20-25), I'll agree with you.

[Fatal9]

Did you mean series, not season?
no, season. already averaged 7 assists within the triangle. and he can average at least 1.5 more if he was on a faster team that exploited his open court game/passing even more, and one that relied on him penetrating then kicking out to shooters (like current Cavs). depending on the system, Pippen is capable of anything from 20/10/9 to 22/9/6 to 24/8/5, all on 49-51% while being a defensive force. :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

no, season. already averaged 7 assists within the triangle. and he can average at least 1.5 more if he was on a faster team that exploited his open court game/passing even more, and one that relied on him penetrating then kicking out to shooters (like current Cavs). depending on the system, Pippen is capable of anything from 20/10/9 to 22/9/6 to 24/8/5, all on 49-51% while being a defensive force. :bowdown:

:roll:

[Disaprine]

During the 1967 playoffs:

Averaged 22 points, 29 rebounds, 9 assists, shooting 58% from the field, 39% from the FT line, while playing 48 minutes per game.
wow :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock]Will anyone ever average a triple double in the finals? These are the guys who came close. There is some subjectivity involved so feel free to add other performances. I automatically eliminated anyone who had a

[fsvr54]

Frazier never gets credit, better player than Reed.

[kshutts1]

[QUOTE=Roundball_Rock] and they needed at least an

[SHAQisGOAT]

Larry Bird

24/9.7/9.5



You can say that that's a triple-double right there, well not technically but it is if you round those numbers. Bird was everywhere in those Finals, even on D.

Ever be done? At least a "legit" one... Can't tell really, but nice thead and :bowdown: to some of those all-around beasts.

[Roundball_Rock]

Uh... apparently you misrepresented what you were doing. Should say "at least an 8/9 in TWO categories". But, minor technicality.

Yeah, what I meant was "8" or "9" in at least one of assists or rebounds. I assumed double digit scoring for these type of players. Thanks for catching that, though. I updated the OP to clear that up and to add LeBron.


You can say that that's a triple-double right there, well not technically but it is if you round those numbers.

Yeah. The reason I didn't count is this was a year after Rondo averaged 16.9/9.7/9.8 in the 09' playoffs. The consensus was that did not count because he did not get to 10.0 so I adopted that thinking in the OP.

I can see LeBron or Westbrook pulling it off in the next few years. What do you guys think about the odds one of them actually does it? Are there any other players out there who have a good shot at the Finals who you can see achieving a triple double in the Finals?

[plowking]

I could see Lebron doing it. He knows the history of the game, the significance, and how he could be remembered if he does pull something like that off.

[jlip]

Not particularly the Finals but...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293290

[Roundball_Rock]

Not particularly the Finals but...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293290

Magic. :bowdown:

As someone mentioned in this thread, Kidd did it in the ECF. In the 02' ECF he averaged 18/11/10. Rondo achieved this feat in the 09' ECSF and was only a few tenths in rebounds and assists from getting there for the entire 09' playoffs--and he did pull it off if you round up.


I could see Lebron doing it. He knows the history of the game, the significance, and how he could be remembered if he does pull something like that off.

Yeah. The hardest part would be getting the assists but he is definitely capable of it and the most likely person to pull it off. He may actually be more likely later in his career when his scoring declines and he becomes more of a distributor, i.e. 20/11/10.

[jlip]

Magic. :bowdown:

As someone mentioned in this thread, Kidd did it in the ECF. In the 02' ECF he averaged 18/11/10. Rondo achieved this feat in the 09' ECSF and was only a few tenths in rebounds and assists from getting there for the entire 09' playoffs--and he did pull it off if you round up.



If we look at series other than the Finals, in '67 Wilt actually averaged a triple double in two consecutive rounds:

EDSF- 28 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 11 apg

EDF-21.6 ppg, 32 rpg, 10 apg

The Finals was actually the only series where he didn't avg. a triple double.

[knicksman]

why not include brans 2011 finals?

[Milbuck]

Lebron easily could've done it the past 2 years..they probably lose to the Spurs in 2013 though if he went for it.