Scottie Pippen in the playoffs from 1991-93

[Roundball_Rock]

"Certain people" here who mysteriously all have one thing in common like to cherry pick Pippen's 200+ playoff game record (especially the parts where he had injured ankles, feet, backs, legs--except they "forget" to tell you these details) to paint him as a poor playoff performer. (the same thing can be done with anyone--even some uber-clutch people like Reggie Miller and "some others") Like any big lie, it has been repeated so often some people who never even watched Pippen play have began to believe it.

On its face this should ring alarm bells. He went to the NBA finals 6 times and played very well 5 times. He had one dud, when he had back, ankle, and foot injuries. And? There are several other legends who had bad finals, even when healthy. Does that mean they are chokers? A .833 batting average is excellent in the NBA finals. Pippen is one of the few players ever to come close to averaging a triple double in the NBA finals--and he did it three times, which is more than anyone not named Magic. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4005524#post4005524

I was going to make one post on some of his best playoff moments but after starting it quickly became clear that such a list would be so long it would not fit in one thread. He had too many great playoff moments that even a partial list winds up being lengthy. This is what happens when you make the playoffs 16 straight years and never have a losing season despite having numerous coaches, different teammates, different offensive schmes, and so on. The one constant was Pippen winning 50+ or around that every year until his last season, in which he played only 23 games and was and 18 minutes a game.

Here is his playoff record:

6-0 in the NBA finals series, 24-11 in games
6-3 in conference finals, 32-15 in games
144 playoff wins, second behind Kareem on the all-time playoff win list. To put 144 playoff wins in context, Kareem has 154, Magic 127 and Jordan 125.

A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went, a lot of the things he did to help his team do not easily stick out on a statsheet. This leads to hilarities like two people in one thread going to basketballreference.com and seeing “10/4/4” and bashing him for it even though he dominated that NBA finals game defensively. In a thread a while ago four posters, all mysteriously having a certain thing in common, went to basketballreference and completely ignored his defensive dominance in that finals when they were for some mysterious reason downplaying his performance in that finals prior to his injury.

Here is historian Bill Simmons (whether you like him or not the fact is he is a bona fide basketball historian, not just a columnist) on Pippen's impact in the shadows of games. I redacted the parts of the article referring to Player X, since experience has shown it is best to minimize mentions of him in Pippen threads.


If the answer is "yes" for No. 1, you probably wonder why Scottie's recent retirement wasn't a bigger story. It's not every day one of the 20 greatest players ever hangs it up, right? .... Does anyone even consider the concept of a point forward? Did any other small forward affect a game in more ways? Was there a more influential defensive player in the past 30 years?

During the 1992 Olympics, Chuck Daly called Scottie his second-best player, describing him as the ultimate "fill-in-the-blanks guy." That's right. Like The Wolf in "Pulp Fiction," Scottie specialized in cleaning up everyone else's mess. When Magic was running amok in the 1991 Finals, Scottie shut him down. When the Knicks were shoving the Bulls around in the 1994 playoffs, Scottie dunked on Ewing, then stood over him defiantly. During the Charles Smith game the year before, Pippen and Horace Grant were the ones stuffing Smith again and again. And when the 1998 Pacers tried to snuff out the ... era, ..... and Pippen crashed the boards and willed themselves time and again to the foul line in Game 7, two smaller guys dominating the paint against a bigger team. They just wanted it more.

...Even better, Tubbs could carry his own episode every now and then, which was precisely what happened in 1994.... Scottie (22.0 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 49% FG) came within a fishy foul on Hubert Davis from taking Chicago to the Finals. How did he not win the MVP award? Pippen detractors conveniently forget that season, just like they ignore the older Scottie leading Portland to within one self-destructive quarter of the 2000 Finals, or gutting through the 1998 playoffs with two herniated disks, in the process jeopardizing his crack at free agency. It's easy to dismiss him as ... 's sidekick. Or to point to the migraine in 1990's Game 7 against the Pistons. Hey, if all else fails, just bring up the quitter thing.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/041101

If you read Simmons' book you know Pippen came up several times. "Best defensive forward ever", the Pippen all-time ranking portion (he is right behind KG and Isiah Thomas and right ahead of John Stockton in case you want to find that part of the book), in the all-time team section, best teams section, etc.. Funny how Simmons, who criticized several other players for choking, never said the same thing about Pippen.

In fact who has? Show me a quote from a legitimate authority, not a few internet message board posters who all "happen" to fans of the same guy, that says this. If Pippen was a poor playoff performer over the course of 16 years in the playoffs evidently this is news to every knowledgeable person. I have heard people like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird call Pippen a superstar, Doug Collins call him and ___ the best perimeter defenders ever, Chuck Daly call him the second-best player on the Dream Team, a Pulitzer Prize winning author who wrote a biography on _____ call him "arguably the second-best player in the league" in his prime, Sports Illustrated call him the second-best player in the NBA and so on. Rod Thorn: "Pippen provided them big shots." Tex Winter and Steve Kerr: Pippen made his teammates better. Phil Jackson: Pippen was a great leader, dominant defender, should have been MVP in 94'. Ron Harper: Pippen's all-around game greatly helped his team win and that was lost in the shuffle because all people talked about was scoring. And on and on. Where are the "Scottie Pippen was a choker" and "Scottie Pippen consistently underperformed in the playoffs" quotes? I am talking about over the course of his career. 16 years. 200+ playoff games. Of course you likely can find a "He sucked in Game X" quote. You can do that with anyone. Can you pull a Chris Webber or Karl Malone and find anyone with legitimacy saying the same thing about such a trend over his entire record? It is amazing to me how many people have bought this myth without ever contemplating the fact that no credible source ever adheres to this view. As I mentioned earlier, the only people who say this are internet posters who all have one thing in common and it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots as to what their agenda is.

Here are his raw numbers in the playoffs, though.

Pippen consistently improved in the playoffs, especially his rebounding.

1988: +2 ppg, +1 rpg,
1989: -1 ppg, +2 rpg
1990: +2 ppg, =rpg
1991: +4 ppg, +2 rpg
1992: -1 ppg, +1 rpg
1993: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1994: +1 ppg, -1 rpg
1995: -2 ppg, +2 rpg (compared to his numbers after MJ returned)
1996: -2 ppg, +3 rpg
1997: =ppg, =rpg (excluding Game 5 of the ECF where he got hurt, played 7 minutes)
1998: -2 ppg, +2 rpg
1999: +3 ppg, +5 rpg
2000: +2 ppg, +1 rpg (Pippen led the 00' Blazers in rebounding, assists, minutes, steals and scored just 3 ppg less than Wallace)
2001: +3 ppg, +1 rpg
2002: +5 ppg, +4 rpg
2003: -5 ppg, -1 rpg

His assists were consistent so I did not include that. 10 times he increased his scoring, and 11 times his rebounding. Three times when his scoring declined he was injured and the other was in his second season. In 1992 it declined but only from 21 ppg to 20 ppg. His rebounding declined thrice, and one instance was in 2003 when he was injured and toast as a player and barely played in that series. Does this look like the record of a “usually terrible playoff performer” or “a choker”? Most players see their stats decline or remain even in the playoffs because of the tougher competition they face. Pippen is one of those who raised his stats. How could this be?

[Roundball_Rock]

On to some great moments: :cheers:

1991

Against the Knicks: 21/11/5/4/3 in the closeout game.
Against the Sixers: 28/8/6 in the closeout game.
Against the Pistons: Having memories of the “migraine game” fresh in his mind, Pippen had a great all-around performance in his first crack at the Pistons since that game. 18 points, 5 boards, only 2 assists but 6 steals and 5 blocks! He had 23/6/10 in the closeout game.

Against the Lakers (21/9/7 for the series):

*Game 2 of the 1991 NBA finals: After losing Game 1 the upstart Bulls suddenly stared the prospect of facing an 0-2 deficit against Magic Johnson's Lakers when Michael Jordan got into early foul trouble. Phil Jackson put Pippen on Johnson for that game and Pippen's long arms, size harassed Magic into having his worst game of the finals. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02/gamelog/1991/#stats_playoffs The Bulls won the game.


”Your defense on Magic Johnson changed the fortunes of the series.”-Phil Jackson

*Game 5 of the 1991 NBA finals: 32/13/7/5, including something like 26 or 28 second half points to finish off the Lakers.

1992

Against Miami: 31/8/5 with 2 blocks to closeout Miami.
Against New York in the ECSF: Pippen had an up and down series but when all the chips were on the line he responded with a masterful triple double in Game 7. 17/11/11 on 64% with three steals thrown in for good measure.

Against Cleveland in the ECF:

He picked up where he left in New York. 29/12/9 with 3 blocks and a steal as the Bulls beat the Cavs in Game 1.

In the closeout Game 6 Pippen had 29/12/5/4/4. For the series he averaged 18/11/6/ with 2 steals and a 1.5 blocks per game.

NBA finals versus Portland (21/8/8):

Pippen welcomed the Blazers with 24/9/10 in Game 1. He had several other near-triple doubles. 16/8/10 in Game 2, 18/8/7, and 24/11/9 in Game 5 to help the Bulls take a 3-2 lead in Portland.

His finest moment, and perhaps the finest moment of his career, came in Game 6, though. Entering the fourth quarter of Game 6 the Bulls found themselves in a massive 15 point hole. Pippen and four bench players were the unit which opened the quarter. Pippen led them to a quick 14-2 run to bring the Bulls back into the game and prevent a Game 7.


Facing a 15-point deficit going into the fourth quarter of Game Six of the 1992 NBA Finals versus the Portland Trail Blazers, Scottie Pippen led the Bulls’ reserves on a 14-2 run before Michael Jordan and the remaining starters rejoined him on the floor to seal the team’s second NBA Championship.
Chicago’s 33-14 domination in the final frame was just enough for the Bulls to secure the 97-93 victory. The star of the miraculous rally, Pippen, finished the game with 26 points (9-of-17 shooting, 6-of-9 from the line), five rebounds and four boards.

Blazers big man Jerome Kersey (24 points, nine rebounds) led Portland to a six-point lead at the intermission, 50-44. Rather than narrowing the gap, the Bulls found themselves down 79-64 entering the fourth quarter. Game Seven appeared imminent to everyone in the Chicago Stadium, until Pippen and the Bulls’ bench began the furious rally.


http://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_920614.html

You can watch the rally at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ywikMqqo4&feature=related .

1993

ECF vs. the Knicks:

The Bulls lost the first two games and the series was essentially on the line in Game 3. Pippen came through with 29 points on 83% shooting.

In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64 Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”

Game 6 was another great performance. Pippen had 24/6/7 (16 of those points were second half points) and was clutch down the stretch, when he needed to step up because the rest of the team was struggling (one guy was 0 for 7 in the 4th quarter). Scroll to 5:00 to see Pippen sink the nail in the Knicks' coffin with a clutch three pointer (this was back when Pippen was not a good three point shooter). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s Here is what Marv Albert and the Czar had to say:


Albert: “...Again Scottie Pippen has hit the big shot...”
Czar: “...Talk about driving a stake in the guy's heart...Time after time in this series Scottie Pippen has proving that he can come up big when they need him...”
Albert: “Remember back in Game 4 it was Pippen who...(delivered a) crushing blow to the Knicks (with a three point play with 2 minutes left)

Ahmad Rashad: “You played big the whole series...”

Some other commentator from a broadcast from wherever the guy who made the video is from said “The difference in this one was Scottie Pippen...He stepped up and hit the (big) shots when they needed them...He ended up with the ball even on plays designed for Michael and still comes through...Following the game Phil Jackson talked about Scottie stepping up when Michael was down...”

Jackson: “Scottie Pippen stepped up big...”

Listen to Pip's interview at the end. Instead of taking the credit he was praising MJ (for doing little things to help his team when he shot was off—you know, just like Scottie did time and again)!

What was Sports Illustrated's take on the series? Pippen was the MVP of the series. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1138680/index.htm


June 14, 1993
Eye Of The Storm
A versatile star led the Bulls to a 4-2 elimination of the Knicks, and he wasn't named Jordan

Throughout the entertaining Eastern scrum, which ended last Friday night in Chicago with a 96-88 Bull victory in Game 6, Pippen and Michael Jordan were like pop-ups in an arcade game: Slam one down with a rubber hammer and the other springs up.
It was not surprising that Jordan was able to pick up Pippen, of course; such acts are part of Superman's daily agenda. But it was intriguing to see Pippen step into the temporary vacuums left by the sometimes physically exhausted and mentally overburdened Jordan (page 13). For the first time in Chicago's three successive marches into the NBA Finals, in fact, a Bull other than Jordan would have deserved to be named MVP in a playoff series, were such an honor awarded for a series other than the Finals.
The spotlight will inevitably be trained on Jordan and his superstar counterpart, Charles Barkley of the Phoenix Suns, in the 1993 NBA Finals, which began in Phoenix on Wednesday. But if Jordan's shaky shooting continues—a career 52% shooter, he made only 40% of his shots against the Knicks—Pippen's number will be called, again and again.
During the decisive Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, for example, it was not Jordan who made the big second-half shots but Pippen, he of the supposedly crumbling-cookie composure. When the Knicks, having almost eliminated a seven-point deficit, threatened to steal the game late in the fourth period, two Pippen jumpers with the shot clock almost at zero bailed out the Bulls. The first came from the deep right corner just after Pippen had flashed a smirk at Knick superfan Spike Lee, sitting at courtside. The second, a three-pointer from beyond the top of the key, was followed by Pippen's raising his index finger and glancing at Starks with another Were you there? expression on his face. Boy, the Knicks must've felt like killing Pippen.

1993 NBA finals (21/9/8 for the series)

Game 1: 27/9/5 to open the series
Game 2: A triple double! 15/12/12 with 2 blocks and 2 steals.
Game 3: 26/10/9 with 3 blocks.
Game 6: A solid 23/12/5/4, along with a hockey assist on the game winning play to finish the series.

All in all, not bad for a "usually terrible playoff performer."

[97 bulls]

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: great posts rock. i must say i didnt even know he was this good. i guess as a youngster we were so infatuated with watching mj and now looking back thats so unfortunate.

i think your starting to open a few others eyes too. ive seen a few guys recently throw him in the 20-22 range. that can be attributed to you and fatal.

[juju151111]

Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:

[Kellogs4toniee]

I have him at 22 on my list.

His importance to the Bulls was comparable to most number one options on any other teams.

[Alhazred]

1993

ECF vs. the Knicks:

The Bulls lost the first two games and the series was essentially on the line in Game 3. Pippen came through with 29 points on 83% shooting.

In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64 Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”

Game 6 was another great performance. Pippen had 24/6/7 (16 of those points were second half points) and was clutch down the stretch, when he needed to step up because the rest of the team was struggling (one guy was 0 for 7 in the 4th quarter). Scroll to 5:00 to see Pippen sink the nail in the Knicks' coffin with a clutch three pointer (this was back when Pippen was not a good three point shooter). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s Here is what Marv Albert and the Czar had to say:


Some other commentator from a broadcast from wherever the guy who made the video is from said “The difference in this one was Scottie Pippen...He stepped up and hit the (big) shots when they needed them...He ended up with the ball even on plays designed for Michael and still comes through...Following the game Phil Jackson talked about Scottie stepping up when Michael was down...”

Jackson: “Scottie Pippen stepped up big...”

Listen to Pip's interview at the end. Instead of taking the credit he was praising MJ (for doing little things to help his team when he shot was off—you know, just like Scottie did time and again)!


I think you're selling Michael's performance that series a little short. In game 3, he went 22/8/11 with two blocks and steals. Game 5, he had a 29/10/14 along with two steals and a block. Let's also not forget the 54 point performance in game 4. Other than that, thanks for highlighting Scottie's best playoff moments, it was fun reminiscing. :cheers:

EDIT: Wasn't 1993 also the year Michael had the sprained wrist and had hurt his ankle earlier in the first round against Atlanta?

[Abraham Lincoln]

In Game 5 Pip had 28 points and 11 rebounds. That game, though, is most remembered for the legendary defensive stops on Charles Smith on the Knicks' final possession that sealed victory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnoZPsJCs64 Had Smith scored the Knicks, who trailed 95-94, would have had a 3-2 series lead with Game 7 slated for New York.
Here is the call from Marv Albert: “Smith stripped...Smith stopped...Smith stopped again by Pippen! What a play by Scottie Pippen!...The Chicago Bulls with a couple of spectacular plays, Scottie Pippen stopping Charles Smith...”Pippen actually got him once. As did Jordan, Grant, & the bottom of the backboard. NY easily could have won Game 5 if not for the BS blocking foul on Rivers.

[Abraham Lincoln]

The reason he is usually called a choker is due to the term clutch these days being strictly attributed to a slew of jump shots in the final minutes of a game. Nobody cares about the defensive end of the basketball or even the elimination games nearly as much as a so called closer hitting a GW.

[Alhazred]

A big problem in assessing Pippen is like Bill Russell, another legend who managed to win wherever he went, a lot of the things he did to help his team do not easily stick out on a statsheet. This leads to hilarities like two people in one thread going to basketballreference.com and seeing “10/4/4” and bashing him for it even though he dominated that NBA finals game defensively.

I actually watched that game live. The Bulls had the game won by the half and rested their starters, as did Utah. Then it turned into an epic 96-54 blowout. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Thanks, 97 and juju. :cheers:


His importance to the Bulls was comparable to most number one options on any other teams.

Interesting point. It isn't just his scoring role (give them 19-22 points per game) but he also had to rebound (7-9 boards), defend (in a dominant fashion, not a merely contain your other guy and help now and then fashion), and run the offense. How many other "second options" had this much responsibility?


I think you're selling Michael's performance that series a little short.

Come on. Do we need to turn every Pippen thread into a Jordan thread? I deliberately tried to minimize mentions of Jordan in the OP to keep the thread on track. Of course Jordan was great, even when he shot poorly because he would do other things to help his team (just like Pippen, like having 11 boards, 11 assists on a bad back yet all we hear about is his shooting). I gave him props for that in the OP and have done so in other threads. The only reason Jordan was relevant is that when he needed some help Pippen stepped up. According to some Pippen was incapable of doing this.


EDIT: Wasn't 1993 also the year Michael had the sprained wrist and had hurt his ankle earlier in the first round against Atlanta?

Yes. Why does this matter? Jordan himself had to step up when Pippen got hurt badly in the 98' finals. This stuff happens. The thing is if Pippen was a choker he would have crumbled, not risen to the occasion like he did.


thanks for highlighting Scottie's best playoff moments, it was fun reminiscing.

Best moments from 1991-93. There is more for other years but it just wouldn't fit in one thread.


Pippen actually got him once. As did Jordan, Grant, & the bottom of the backboard. NY easily could have won Game 5 if not for the BS blocking foul on Rivers.

Yes, but that was the call. The call is more dramatic than what actually happened. :lol


The reason he is usually called a choker is due to the term clutch these days being strictly attributed to a slew of jump shots in the final minutes of a game. Nobody cares about the defensive end of the basketball or even the elimination games nearly as much as a so called closer hitting a GW.

I agree and it is unfair in his case since he rarely took game winners because he had Jordan. In effect, his is criticized for not making shots he never took! This is why you never hear of a long list of game winners he missed. There is no such list because he took so few over the course of such a lengthy period. The only big one that comes to mind is Game 1 of the 98' finals.




I actually watched that game live. The Bulls had the game won by the half and rested their starters, as did Utah. Then it turned into an epic 96-54 blowout.

To an extent. Pippen played 35 minutes, Jordan 32. The game was close after the first quarter but it blew up after that. The Bulls were up about 20 at halftime and then pulled their starters in the third. Why does any of this matter? The point is Pippen had a dominant game but because he scored only 10 points people actually were citing that game as an example of Pippen not playing well in a big game! It would be like looking up a Bill Russell game where he scored 10 points and had 5 assists and saying he did nothing. (and no, Pippen is not Russell but he is similar in the sense that he did a lot of things that did not easily show up in the box score--especially defense. There is no stat for disrupting the pinpoint timing if the #1 offense)

[Alhazred]

To an extent. Pippen played 35 minutes, Jordan 32. The game was close after the first quarter but it blew up after that. The Bulls were up about 20 at halftime and then pulled their starters in the third. Why does any of this matter? The point is Pippen had a dominant game but because he scored only 10 points people actually were citing that game as an example of Pippen not playing well in a big game! It would be like looking up a Bill Russell game where he scored 10 points and had 5 assists and saying he did nothing. (and no, Pippen is not Russell but he is similar in the sense that he did a lot of things that did not easily show up in the box score--especially defense. There is no stat for disrupting the pinpoint timing if the #1 offense)

Sorry, I didn't say that to discredit Pippen. I was agreeing with you, his numbers didn't tell the whole story. He along with Harper, Kukoc and Michael dominated Utah that game.

I only brought up Michael's injuries because you mentioned how other ISH members unfairly bash Scottie for performing poorly when injured. Just saying. :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

I want to see how many threads Roundball has made about Pippen. It has to be at least 3/4 of his threads.

[Roundball_Rock]

I only brought up Michael's injuries because you mentioned how other ISH members unfairly bash Scottie for performing poorly when injured. Just saying.

Was I bashing Jordan? Was I cherry picking those games to paint him as a choker? In the GOAT criteria thread I gave him a perfect score on clutchness. Ask juju since he was in that thread.


He along with Harper, Kukoc and Michael dominated Utah that game.

:oldlol:

The agenda. Every thread. I will go into more detail about that game in the 1994-1998 thread. All I will say is the articles and comments from everyone involved (both coaches, players), journalists who watched the game in several major newspapers, commentators like Doug Collins all mentioned one player dominating defensively. :oldlol: at acting as if there was not a legendary performance in that game. Of course team defense mattered--just as it does whenever someone dominates defensively (of course, the team matters on offense as well unless someone is grabbing every board, taking it down the court and scoring all by himself all game) but there was no question who was primarily responsible for the annihilation of the Utah offense. Now keep the agenda for another thread. I will not respond to any of the anti-Pippen agenda people in this thread after this post. The purpose of this thread is to correct a nefarious myth. It is to build up, not tear down a player. Take a page from the two Jordan fans (juju, kellogs) above you in this thread who kept with the spirit of the thread. I won't even bother reading what magnax said but he says the same things in every Pippen thread. I am sure the rest of the cavalry will be arriving soon as well. :lol

Claiming Kukoc dominated a game defensively to diminish Pippen. Just wow. :roll:

[Alhazred]

Was I bashing Jordan? Was I cherry picking those games to paint him as a choker?

Sorry, it just seemed odd that you'd mention Jordan's shooting woes throughout the series but not mention a 54 point performance or a triple double. If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize.


The agenda. Every thread. I will go into more detail about that game in the 1994-1998 thread. All I will say is the articles and comments from everyone involved (both coaches, players), journalists who watched the game in several major newspapers, commentators like Doug Collins all mentioned one player dominating defensively. :oldlol: at acting as if there was not a legendary performance in that game. Of course team defense mattered--just as it did when Russell dominated but there was no question who was primarily responsible for the annihilation of the Utah offense. Now keep the trolling for another thread. I will not respond to any of the anti-Pippen agenda people in this thread. The purpose of this thread is to correct a nefarious myth. It is to build up, not tear down a player.

:confusedshrug: I just said the Bulls were great that game, not that Scotttie wasn't the Bull's most dominant defender. Also, I wasn't referring to defense specifically. Jordan put up 24 points in 32 minutes, Harper had an 8/10/7 and Kukoc put up 16/6/4/4. I only mentioned that I saw it because I agreed that Pippen's performance in game three is unfairly judged due to some people only looking at the base stats. Scottie's defense was one of the reasons for that blowout, probably the biggest one.

Also, had Scottie played 40+ minutes, I'm sure his numbers would have been good enough for people not to think he played poorly that game(For those who only checked the stats). He would have had at least 15/6/6, and that's if he coasted.


Claiming Kukoc dominated a game defensively to diminish Pippen. Just wow.

I said he had a good game, not that he dominated defensively. 16/6/4/4 is very good for a sixth man, no?

Just to be absolutely clear, I am not saying Harper's, Jordan's and Kukoc's defense was as good as Scottie's that game, just that they played well.

EDIT: Also, I have to admit it was funny that you thought I was saying Kukoc's defense was anywhere as good as Scottie's. :lol

Toni was mediocre defensively, whereas Scottie was the GOAT defensive and all-around sf in the 90s.

[Roundball_Rock]

Sorry, it just seemed odd that you'd mention Jordan's shooting woes throughout the series but not mention a 54 point performance or a triple double.

What relevance does any of that have? I know some want to make every Pippen thread a Jordan thread but this is a thread about Pippen having great playoff games. In that series a key part of the story is Pippen stepping up when Jordan was down at times (something some claim was never possible). Did you see me go out of my way to mention Jordan shot 17% in Game 3? No, because it wasn't relevant but if my intent was to bash Jordan I would have mentioned it. Did you see me say Jordan sucked every game? All I--and commentators and Sports Illustrated--said is when the Bulls needed Pippen to step up in the clutch he did. It is hard to talk about this while completely ignoring Jordan. If Jordan did not struggle SOME of the time there would be no occasion for Pippen to step up. What am I supposed to say? "Pippen stepped up when Player X was struggling"? :oldlol:

Relax. Jordan had maybe only 2-3 "bad", by his standards, series in his entire career! :bowdown:


Jordan put up 24 points in 32 minutes, Harper had an 8/10/7 and Kukoc put up 16/6/4/4.

None of that is relevant to defense. I am sure people scored a lot in games which Russell dominated defensively as well. So if someone talks about Russell dominating defensively does that mean we have to mention what Sam Jones or Havelick scored as well?


Also, had Scottie played 40+ minutes, I'm sure his numbers would have been good enough for people not to think he played poorly that game(For those who only checked the stats). He would have had at least 15/6/6, and that's if he coasted.


15/6/6 on paper is hardly a superstar performance. Besides, he had 0 points in the second half. I don't think anyone was really trying by that point. According to some you have to score 30 points or you suck. It wasn't just that game. They gave him credit only for a 28 point Game 4. The story of the series was defense when the Bulls went up 3-1 before he got hurt and he was easily the primary reason for that. Yet all a few posters talked about was his scoring and comparing 20 ppg to 30 ppg. There were even some who claimed that another player, with, um, much less responsibilities on defense had basically as much impact defensively on that series as Pippen. They did not even acknowledge Pippen's defensive dominance, even when a mountain of contemporary primary source evidence was presented to them. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored 4 points (Game 1 98' ECF), 10 points, or 20 points to them. 30+ or bust, baby!

[Alhazred]

What relevance does any of that have? I know some want to make every Pippen thread a Jordan thread but this is a thread about Pippen having great playoff games. In that series a key part of the story is Pippen stepping up when Jordan was down at times (something some claim was never possible). Did you see me go out of my way to mention Jordan shot 17% in Game 3? No, because it wasn't relevant but if my intent was to bash Jordan I would have mentioned it. Did you see me say Jordan sucked every game? All I--and commentators and Sports Illustrated--said is when the Bulls needed Pippen to step up in the clutch he did. It is hard to talk about this while completely ignoring Jordan. If Jordan did not struggle SOME of the time there would be no occasion for Pippen to step up. What am I supposed to say? "Pippen stepped up when Player X was struggling"? :oldlol:

Relax. Jordan had maybe only 2-3 "bad", by his standards, series in his entire career! :bowdown:

Forget what I said about Jordan, then. I apologize.


None of that is relevant to defense. I am sure people scored a lot in games which Russell dominated defensively as well. So if someone talks about Russell dominating defensively does that mean we have to mention what Sam Jones or Havelick scored as well?

That really wasn't what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to prop up Scottie's teammate's in game 3. You are correct in saying Scottie dominated defensively in game 3, there is no disputing that. Utah couldn't do sh-t that game and left shell-shocked thanks to Scottie.


15/6/6 on paper is hardly a superstar performance.

Like I said, if he coasted. He probably could have finished with more than that. Regardless, he still had a great defensive performance.


Besides, he had 0 points in the second half. I don't think anyone was really trying by that point. According to some you have to score 30 points or you suck. It wasn't just that game. They gave him credit only for a 28 point Game 4. The story of the series was defense when the Bulls went up 3-1 before he got hurt and he was easily the primary reason for that. Yet all a few posters talked about was his scoring and comparing 20 ppg to 30 ppg. There were even some who claimed that another player, with, um, much less responsibilities on defense had basically as much impact defensively on that series as Pippen. They did not even acknowledge Pippen's defensive dominance, even when a mountain of contemporary primary source evidence was presented to them. It wouldn't have mattered if he scored 4 points (Game 1 98' ECF), 10 points, or 20 points to them. 30+ or bust, baby!

Is this in reference to users who made threads older than my account? I've seen maybe a couple of people bring it up here and no one really went into a heavy discussion regarding it.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great post that not only portrays Pippen accurately as not only one of the great winners in NBA history, but also one of the best all around forwards of all time. I can't think of a defensive small forward as good as him, and the only players I can think of being as capable in the point forward role are Lebron and perhaps Grant Hill in his prime. Not to mention that he was a good 3 point shooter, could post up and score with a little jump hook or bank shot, he was excellent in the open court and a great penetrator. Of course with his 7'2" wingspan and athleticism he was also one of the best finishers of his day. All of that is why you count on him to average an efficient 19-22 ppg.

And finally, a part of Pippen's game that goes overlooked so often is his rebounding. How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?

[Fatal9]

Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks.

so, dude completely dismantled the Bucks :oldlol:

And then on to the Sixers series. Bulls had a great matchup again with Jordan getting a 6'2 poor defensive shooting guard on him and the Bulls decided to exploit it for all it was worth. It was a good strategy to give MJ an unrestrained green light since he literally had to just shoot, with Hawkins/Dawkins having 0 chance of bothering his shot, and the lane being "anchored" by Charles Barkley :oldlol: . So Pip wasn't needed to score as much and he wouldn't get many shots/possessions to use, as MJ was "getting his" with 32 shots a game. Pip still had 18/12/8 in game 1, found out his dad had 24 hours to live right before game 3 (was understandably unfocused during the game), flew out to meet him and got to spend 2 hours with him before he died. He missed game 4 due to the funeral but then came back big time in game 5 for a brilliant 29/6/3/2 game (13/17 shooting!) to close out the Sixers with MJ.

In the Pistons series, he wasn't as effective, mainly due to bad road performances by the entire team. No one could get it going offensively as Pistons distrupted the entire offense and shut down the Bulls. Even MJ, at the peak of his career, shot just 12/27, 5/16, 7/19 and 13/27 in the road games. Scottie, like MJ, was still great in the home games. In game 3 he dropped 29/11/5/3 and shot 57% in all the home games combined. Of course the only thing from the entire series and playoff run that is brought up is a game where Pippen had a migraine so bad that his vision was blurred.

Pippen was already one of the best second options in the league by 1990 (was better than someone like Worthy at that point, especially considering he had already become a beast on defense). This is why I find it ridiculous that people point to ONE boxscore, in a game Pippen wasn't even healthy to to bash him (clearly so the accomplishments of another player can look better by discrediting him).

I've seen almost every game from his 1990 playoffs run over the last year and I think I'll make a youtube channel highlighting some of these great games, as well as ones from '91-'93 too, because most Pippen games uploaded are post-'94.


How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?
This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.

I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:

[Desperado]

Fatal9 has gone beyond being a troll. We need to invent a new word for him. :oldlol:


Yup, he must just be a troll because your opinions are unrefuted facts and you don't agree with him. :lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?

Might I add pissed off for no reason...MJ=GOAT. Period. MJ>>>Pippen. Period.

What more does these MJ groupies want? A Blow Job for Jordan and a hand job for his friend Bugz Bunny?:confusedshrug:

You might want to read his post again and pay attention to certain language. THAT'S why he's a troll.

[Fatal9]

Because he's highlighting the greatness of Scottie Pippen and your just a pissed of MJ fan who hates anything associated with him?
funny thing is, no one has posted his 1990 playoffs run in detail before (stats for that aren't available on internet as far as I know). dude is clearly pissed that Pippen did much better than he thought, and was one of the best second options in the league (commentators and opposing coaching staffs even saying he would be #1 on most teams). apparently anything not from the perspective of a Jordan fan is trolling, especially if it's facts and observations like my post earlier. btw, i can't recall how many times loki has posted the game 7 boxscore completely out of context, followed shortly by "see...Jordan had no help before 1991!". another Pippen myth busted though :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great post :bowdown: . Something like this was needed considering how ignorant 90% of ISH on Pippen.

This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Game 1 vs. Bucks - 17/10/13 - opens up the playoffs with a triple double
Game 2 vs. Bucks - 32/8/8/4 - yes, this is Pippen's line, not Jordan's. 24 year old second options aren't suppose to have games like this! He dominated defensively as well.
Game 3 vs. Bucks - 21/9/9/2 - MJ and Alvin Robertson were having a shootout. In the first half MJ was picking up the scoring load and Robertson went off for 24 pts on him, and it was continuing midway through the third until Pippen came on him and held AR to like 7-8 pts afterwards (most were in transition or off switches btw).
Game 4 vs. Bucks - 20/11/2/4 - if this game was competitive, we'd be looking at a 28/12/5/5 type of game. led the Bulls in this game to close out the Bucks.

I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.


This is a very important point. He averaged 2.5 offensive boards in a season and got around 3.5 in some of his playoff runs. Offensive rebounds are tougher to get, and are usually more accurate at determining a player's rebounding skill (considering how many defensive rebounds go uncontested). To put things in perspective, a great rebounding SF like Lebron doesn't even average half the number of offensive rebounds that Pippen did. Even Jordan, who was a great offensive rebounder for a perimeter player never got above 2. Can't count how many times Pippen got Bulls extra possessions during key moments in playoff games, same with Grant. Rebounders like Pippen, Grant and later Rodman (along with Jordan too), are why Bulls never missed having an elite center. They had the best rebounders in the league position wise at SG, SF and PF.

Good point about offensive rebounds, a lot of people overlook that when judging rebounders.


I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.

Good point. Pippen is one of the best players I've seen in the open court and he'd be great in that type of ststem in his prime.

[Alhazred]

I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.

Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.

Hawkins did guard MJ for much of the series, but what's telling is his language (Hawkins was 6'3", not 6'2", and was never called a bad defender by anyone; in fact, his defense was routinely praised, even in that series. He was no all-league defender, but he was solid). They tried Ron Anderson (6'7") on MJ too, but of course no player 6'6" or above had any chance of staying in front of 1990 Jordan, so that ended quickly. Dawkins rarely, if ever, guarded MJ that series (I have the entire series on DVD and most games are up on YT to verify).

[Fatal9]

I didn't realize Pippen was that good in 1990. I'll have to check out some more games from 1990, particularly the playoffs.
Game 2 from the Bucks series is really great. Jordan and Pippen were both playing at a high level. It was very physical too...the famous foul when Jordan drives baseline and gets ganged up by 3 guys and one of them powerslams him to the court is from that game iirc. But yes, Pippen was very good. He took his game to another level in the playoffs. Even in his rookie year, he saved his best game of the season for a do or die game vs Cavs in the playoffs. Roundball mentioned it in another thread, though I haven't watched it yet.


Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.
That was clearly the Bulls strategy though. Seriously brans, watch even one game from this series. You have a 6'2 or 6'3 guy, who is already a poor defender on you, you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that? I was literally LOLing at the matchup, it was completely unfair. Like matching a center against a SF. There's a reason he took 30 shots in game 1, 36 in game 2, 34 in game 3, 31 in game 4 and settled with 26 in game 5 (this is unusually high even for MJ). I am not criticizing him, he would be stupid not to take 30+ shots every game that series (and he lit it up like he should have). I was pointing out the different strategy in the Sixers series resulting in Pippen handling the ball much less than usual. I don't know how anyone who watched the series can think otherwise. Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says, but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).


Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.
I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).

[Alhazred]

I can't even walk if I get a migraine, especially one bad enough to blur your vision. I would almost rather play with a physical injury like a strain than one that completely messes with your senses like that, especially in a sport where you need to be very precise. It was unfortunate timing, though I think the Bulls would still lose, they just couldn't win on the road that series. Pippen still played fairly well in the first couple of road games was averaging 17 ppg on 50% but the rest of the guys just didn't have it going (MJ only 39.5% but made up for it by exploding in the following home games).

Kareem complained about his reoccurring migraines frequently throughout his career. In the 85 Finals he was actually puking from one before a game but still managed to put up a 30/10. They're not something that should be written off lightly.

Honestly, I think if Scottie had been healthy that game the Bulls could have caused an upset. Imagine how epic it would have been beating the "Bad Boys" on their own court!

[OldSchoolBBall]

Gwho is already a poor defender on you

Where are you getting that Hawkins was a poor defender from? No one has ever said that about him besides you. Commentators/analysts (even during that series) praised his defense in general. He was a solid defender.


you are the best player in the league, you have every physical advantage imaginable on the guy...you think they were not going to exploit that?

You'd be right if MJ were raining jumpers over Hawkins all day, but instead he was routinely taking him off the dribble. A 6'6" guy should not be able to routinely explode past a 6'3" guy who is a solid defender, but he did time and again.


Dawkins may be an "average" defender like loki says

Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.


but I've seen Alvin Robertson rise from his grave to have a career playoff game against him (and he didn't have Jordan's physical advantages as AR was like 6'2 or 6'3 too I think).

AR should have been significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.

Most of AR's points that game came in transition and on defensive scrambles anyway.


Now if your same comment was made by a well known respected Jordan fan, im pretty sure Loki wouldn't have a problem with it.

No Jordan lover or objective fan in general would make that comment, because Hawkins flat out was not a poor defender by any stretch. It's objectively false. No one besides Fatal9 has ever said such a thing, and in fact many people have said just the opposite: that he was a solid/good defender. Unless you're looking at the RESULTS (i.e., MJ averaging like 45/7/7/52% against him that series) and drawing conclusions from that, but if that's the case then anyone who any great scorer has ever lit up is a poor defender. It's classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious reasoning. I guess ARob and Paul Pressey (two multi-time defensive first/second teamers) were also poor defenders since MJ averaged 37/8/7/53% on them in the 1990 playoffs. :rolleyes:

[juju151111]

Ok I have to admit...I :oldlol: @ This gem:



Is this a fact Loki? Or did he make this up?....

I know Jordan did more than just shoot.

:oldlol: This is why I never try to get in these "In the Past" debates...Because they go on and on and can never change because the facts within the topic never change.
All Mj did was shoot? Brans listening to a troll like Faketal.
Game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGhvH7SSNW8
gm4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pMxyP6UcY

[Fatal9]

AR should have been significantly quicker than Jordan and able to stay in front of him (especially given his defensive ability as a former DPOY and multiple time first teamer), but instead (like Hawkins) got routinely beat off the dribble. AR also had good hops. I take it you didn't see the many nice dunks he had in that series.
Um, what does this have to do with what I was saying? I was talking about AR vs. Hawkins in '91 not his matchup with Jordan. I've only seen one game from the Sixers-Bucks series in '91 and watching AR go from putting like 13 ppg in the season to torching the dude for 30+ and average like 24 ppg on 60%, isn't exactly going to help me think he was a "good" defender. This is really for another thread (maybe you should make a Jordan in 1990 playoffs thread :rolleyes:). I was pointing out the reason for high FGA by Jordan during the series, and the Bulls strategy to exploit the mismatch (almost 32 shots a game in that series vs. 24 for the rest of the playoffs). BTW, I watched this series in the last two weeks. It was the only one missing from the 1990 run that I hadn't seen, and lol @ you acting like Jordan wasn't simply rising up and shooting for most of it. He drove too, like always, but it's a joke to act like he wasn't making full use of the matchup.


Dawkins (not Hawkins) never guarded MJ that series save for isolated switches.
confused the two. I meant Hawkins (as you were referring to him).

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've only seen one game from the Sixers-Bucks series in '91 and watching AR go from putting like 13 ppg in the season to torching the dude for 30+ and average like 24 ppg on 60%, isn't exactly going to help me think he was a "good" defender.

Regarding AR's increased production vs. the Sixers:

1) Robertson's minutes increased from 32.1 mpg during the regular season to 39.3 mpg in the playoffs that year, a ~23% jump.

2) Ricky Pierce (22.5 ppg) and Dale Ellis (19.3 ppg), the Bucks' two leading scorers that year (they were traded for each other midway through the season; only one was on the team at any given point, but you're still losing a 19-23 ppg scorer for the playoffs) missed the playoffs, leading to an increased scoring role for ARob in the postseason. His FGA went from 11.2 to 16.3 accordingly.

3) It's a 3 game sample and he had two very good games, which is far too small a sample size to pass judgment on.

You act as if AR's role, minutes, and usage all stayed the same and he just exploded. No.

[juju151111]

MJ does jumpers if 6-3 or 6-7 guys are on him. Look at this game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mwSpGOH8X4 He took jumpers all gm. Mj does wat he feels like doing. The knicks forced him into alot of jumpers in 92, but yet he still was taking nuts on wilkins/Starks/ewing

[Abraham Lincoln]

And then on to the Sixers series. Bulls had a great matchup again with Jordan getting a 6'2 poor defensive shooting guard on him and the Bulls decided to exploit it for all it was worth. It was a good strategy to give MJ an unrestrained green light since he literally had to just shoot, with Hawkins/Dawkins having 0 chance of bothering his shot
Try again, Kobe fan. Not only was Hawk superior as a defensive man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2PJ8j14MFA#t=7m8s) to your idol, but he was also a superior 3 point marksman and entry passer.


and the lane being "anchored" by Charles Barkley
Don't underestimate the Mahorn & Barkley in the paint. Superior rebounders and defensive intimidators & stoppers to that of the bigs on your new favorite team. It astounds me how such such poor defensive seven foot stiffs can be so effective. NBA Basketball was once played with more muscle, position, & savvy rather than mere fragile length.

http://i49.tinypic.com/iel7v8.jpg

[Roundball_Rock]

. I can't think of a defensive small forward as good as him, and the only players I can think of being as capable in the point forward role are Lebron and perhaps Grant Hill in his prime. Not to mention that he was a good 3 point shooter, could post up and score with a little jump hook or bank shot, he was excellent in the open court and a great penetrator. Of course with his 7'2" wingspan and athleticism he was also one of the best finishers of his day. All of that is why you count on him to average an efficient 19-22 ppg.

And finally, a part of Pippen's game that goes overlooked so often is his rebounding. How many other small forwards in the last 20 years were getting 8-9 rpg?

:applause: Great post. Was there anything on the court Pippen could not do? Yeah, he was not great at everything. He was never more than a good three point shooter but he was good to great at every facet of the game. He had no weakness.

Regarding 8-9 boards, the only one I can think of is Hill. It isn't just his raw totals that are impressive. They look even better in context. In 94' the other top SF's were grabbing 5-6 boards (Wilkins, Mullin, Schrempf, and Mashburn) while Pippen was at 9 rpg! Pippen was 23rd in the league in rebounding in 94' and 17th-18th in 95' until Jordan, himself a great rebounder at his position, came back. Even with Rodman gobbling up so many rebounds he averaged 6.5-7 ish boards on the second three-peat team. People also forget that in 2000 it wasn't towering Sabonis or PF Wallace who led Portland in rebounding in the playoffs. It was a 6'7" old man whose body had been ravaged by a myriad of injuries and mileage (10+ seasons, deep playoff runs practically every year, 2 Olympics).


This is just from '91-'93. He was beasting for most of the 1990 playoffs too. I know boxscores from games before 1991 aren't available, so I'll lift the curtain on Pippen's 1990 playoffs run, when apparently he wasn't a legit second option or "giving enough help" according to a misinformed group....

Great stuff on 90'! The OP is part of a series since Pippen had so many great playoff moments you can't fit them into one thread. :bowdown: There will be 1994-98, 1999-03 and 1988-90 threads too.


I sort of wish Pippen came into the league a couple of years earlier. He could have really used Jordan's injury in '86 as an opportunity to develop his scoring skills a lot more when he was young (and despite playing with someone who took 25+ shots a game, he still developed significantly and became a 20-22 ppg at 50% type of guy). There was a lot of untapped scoring potential in Pippen imo. Especially in the early years, I could see him getting close to 25 ppg as the game was more open in 1988-1991 than 1994.

Good points. I too wish Pippen was a bit younger. If only Pippen was 31 or 32, not 34, in 2000... (or alternatively, the Malone charging injury in the 98' finals did not happen and Pip was able to decline in a natural fashion, instead of suddenly going from a top 5 superstar to a borderline all-star as he did literally overnight due to that injury!)



Might I add pissed off for no reason...MJ=GOAT. Period. MJ>>>Pippen. Period.

What more does these MJ groupies want? A Blow Job for Jordan and a hand job for his friend Bugz Bunny?

Great question. What difference, in reality, does it make for Jordan's legacy if Pippen is rated 17th or 37th all-time? Jordan is still Jordan! :hammerhead:


, i can't recall how many times loki has posted the game 7 boxscore completely out of context, followed shortly by "see...Jordan had no help before 1991!".

:D Nothing on the rest of the 1990 playoffs. No mentions of his injuries in 96', 97', 98' when they talk about Pippen's FG %'s in the playoffs in those years. (funny how they never post his FG %'s from 1991-93 or never mention that his points per shot were solid even in 1996-98 but he was taking a lot of 3's) No mention of what happened in the 98' finals when discussing his record from 1999-2003. There actually are several people here who think Pippen in 99' or 00' was basically the same player as 98' Pippen. We know why some of them hold that position but others hold it because the constant out of context propaganda regarding his record in Portland. 2000 was one of my favorite Pippen seasons yet these guys try to turn it into a negative. :oldlol:


Scottie actually had a very good season in 1990, unfortunately the game 7 against Detroit has overshadowed it over the years. Had he not been dealing with that migraine, people would probably view that season much differently.

The problem isn't really random people. It is people with a certain agenda. How come you never hear of the bad performances some others had in similar situations? You can cherry pick with anyone who was in the playoffs a lot. For example, Game 7 84' finals for Magic Johnson. I guess Magic sucked in the playoffs too? :mad:


Even in his rookie year, he saved his best game of the season for a do or die game vs Cavs in the playoffs. Roundball mentioned it in another thread, though I haven't watched it yet.

That was also his first career start. Think of the pressure he was under. He was a rookie (with a bad back--another fact you never hear about). Game 5. Win or get eliminated. If the team loses, it is the team's fault. If they win, it is all Jordan. How does the "choker" respond? With the best game of his career at that point.


Kareem complained about his reoccurring migraines frequently throughout his career. In the 85 Finals he was actually puking from one before a game but still managed to put up a 30/10. They're not something that should be written off lightly.

Yeah--Kareem still has that problem. He uses weed for his migraines.


Stay real...This is why you, Round-Ball, Shaqattack, Loki aka Oldschoolbball, are my favorite posters.

Thanks. :cheers:

[Fatal9]

....
Right. Increased minutes automatically makes have a career series :rolleyes:. He may very well be an average defender, but anytime I see this dude he's always getting torched, even when he wasn't physically outmatched. In regards to the AR-MJ matchup, I think that hard foul might have been the best thing that happened to MJ that series. He came out in completely jumpshot-mode in G3 and dropped 48. It was funny seeing AR (who does have good hops like you mentioned...even somewhat dunked on Jordan in the series) try to make up for a 4 inch difference (like getting a SF to defend a C) and attempt to meet Jordan's release point, and MJ just completely disrespecting his reach and simply firing over him. Again, I would rather this be in another thread. You're getting awfully emotional over a comment regarding something that is pretty obvious (that a. Jordan had a very nice height/length advantage and b. he and the Bulls were exploiting it very nicely).

[ShaqAttack3234]

I never like to get into the Jordan vs Pippen thing because it's often just one side diminishing the accomplishments of the other. I do think that Pippen can be underrated, I think he was a fantastic player and a legit superstar. His all around skillset is among the best I've ever seen. As for Jordan, if I had to pick a best player to ever play the game, it'd probably be Jordan, but I don't think it's fair to say having not seen much prime Kareem or Wilt.


Stay real...This is why you, Round-Ball, Shaqattack, Loki aka Oldschoolbball, are my favorite posters.

Glad to hear it, I appreciate it.

[juju151111]

I never like to get into the Jordan vs Pippen thing because it's often just one side diminishing the accomplishments of the other. I do think that Pippen can be underrated, I think he was a fantastic player and a legit superstar. His all around skillset is among the best I've ever seen. As for Jordan, if I had to pick a best player to ever play the game, it'd probably be Jordan, but I don't think it's fair to say having not seen much prime Kareem or Wilt.



Glad to hear it, I appreciate it.
Their isn't any Mj vs Pippen. MJ>>>>>>Pippen

[ShaqAttack3234]

Their isn't any Mj vs Pippen. MJ>>>>>>Pippen

Obviously nobody is arguing Pippen was as good as Jordan, I meant the arguments always seem to be either a Jordan or Pippen fan trying to diminish the other's accomplishments to make their favorite player look better. I try to stay out of that.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ>>>>>>Pippen

Everyone agrees on that. :confusedshrug:

[Alhazred]

The problem isn't really random people. It is people with a certain agenda. How come you never hear of the bad performances some others had in similar situations? You can cherry pick with anyone who was in the playoffs a lot. For example, Game 7 84' finals for Magic Johnson. I guess Magic sucked in the playoffs too? :mad:

Believe it or not, it's not simply diehard Jordan jockers who believe this. I've talked to some old school Pistons and Celtics fans back in my Youtube days of basketball discussion who stick him with that label. Well, that's what the dumbasses think, at least. I remember this one Bird fanboy who called Scottie a "dumb kid". :wtf: He hated Jordan, too.

By the way, good point about certain legends having their choke moments forgotten. Larry Bird actually had a three game streak of scoring 8, 8 then 12 points in three consecutive games in the 1981 Finals. He made up for it with excellent passing and rebounding, but it's funny to hear of a guy like Bird having shooting troubles, especially against a team that didn't even win half it's games that year! Of course, he and Magic both deserve the title of clutch. Same for Scottie. :cheers:

Speaking of Magic, check his 1981 performance in the first round. He actually air balled a game deciding shot! Bill Simmons mentions it in his book.


Yeah--Kareem still has that problem. He uses weed for his migraines.

Yep, I've read about that. Him, Parish and Walton are the greatest pot-smoking centers of all-time, imo. :lol

[Fatal9]

By the way, good point about certain legends having their choke moments forgotten. Larry Bird actually had a three game streak of scoring 8, 8 then 12 points in the third consecutive game of the 1981 Finals. He made up for it with excellent passing and rebounding, but it's funny to hear of a guy like Bird having shooting troubles, especially against a team that didn't even win half it's games that year!
You're an idiot. Looks like someone didn't watch a single game from the series, understand Bird's role with the team at that point in his career or grasp the meaning of the word "choke". There are many other series to point to for Bird shooting poorly, playing poorly or "choking" and that is not one of them. Like seriously...you actually give the '81 finals series as an example of Bird "choking"? Wow :roll:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Although, these type of arguments should be your cup of tea...With the amount of Kobe fans who diminsh Shaq...(There's no diminishments on your part concerning Bryant though.)

Funny thing is, Jordan fans turn into Shaq fans in that and find a way to underrate the hell out of Kobe....Shocker..:rolleyes:

I admit I can probably sound like a Kobe hater at times when I'm going back and forth with annoying trolls, although more or less to make a point.

Rationally, most can agree that Kobe is top 10 or atleast in the discussion all time and currently, when healthy he's still top 2-3 in the league.

[Alhazred]

You're an idiot. Looks like someone didn't watch a single game from the series, understand Bird's role with the team at that point in his career or grasp the meaning of the word "choke". There are many other series to point to for Bird shooting poorly, playing poorly or "choking" and that is not one of them. Like seriously...you actually give the '81 finals series as an example of Bird "choking"? Wow :roll:

Take it up with the NBA, then.

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19801981.html


The Celtics awoke with stifling defense and a 94-71 blowout of the Rockets at the Summit. Cedric Maxwell did much of the work for Boston, as Bird was held to just eight points. Late in the game he and Reid got into a little fracas, which seemed to be more a result of Bird's frustrations than anything else.

Harris tightened things up in Game 4 by using just six players. Bird was again held to just eight points, while Malone ruled the inside. Houston got a lead, then held on for a 91-86 win that evened the series. Afterward, Malone had plenty to say. He told the media he could get four guys off the streets of Petersburg, Va., his hometown, and beat the Celtics. "I don't think they're all that good," he said. "I don't think they can stop us from doing what we want to do."

It seemed to be just the emotional spark the Celtics were looking for. "The man threw down a challenge," Maxwell replied, "and this is a team that responds well to challenges."

In Game 5, Reid continued his defensive domination of Bird, holding him to 12 points. The Boston forward was averaging nearly 16 rebounds and eight assists during the series, but his shooting was nothing short of frosty. The rest of the Celtics, particularly Maxwell, took up the slack. They won at home, 109-80, to take a three-games-to-two lead.

I have a lot of respect for Larry, he was an amazing player. I am not trying to tear him down, only supporting Scottie's case.

Also, I wasn't even talking about the whole series, only those three games. He had a great game 6 and made the game-deciding three. :applause:


The series returned to Houston on Thursday, May 14, and Bird broke out of his slump. Boston had a six-point lead at the half and kept it down the stretch. When Houston pulled close late in the fourth, Bird came downcourt and laced in his only three-pointer of the series, which propelled Boston to a 102-91 win and the team's 14th championship.

Afterward, in the locker room, Bird stole Auerbach's lit cigar and puffed impishly. "We're the champions," he said as he broke into a coughing spell.

"He's just one of a kind," said Fitch.

[robertshaw_1]

Top Ten Players Ever in Order.

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Scottie Pippen
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Tim Duncan


11) Shaquille O

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well, you dont come off as a Kobe hater to me...There's a difference between flat out hating for no reason and just owning idiot fans who have no clue.

Well, I don't consider myself a Kobe hater either. I'm not sure I'd call myself a fan, although I loved how he was playing early this season with his post game when he was shooting near 50%. For the most part I have enjoyed watching him play particularly from 2000-2003 and 2006-2009. I admit there were stretches were I thought he was selfish and didn't like the way he played(early 2000-2001 season, 2004 finals, January of this season). But I've always respected his skillset, work ethic and toughness.

I do find myself defending him when people call his MVP undeserved or that Gasol is the MVP of the team(which is both trash), but I just wish people would stop putting him up there with Jordan and acting like he was as good as Shaq during the 3peat because that's the other extreme.

[D-Rose]

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]Top Ten Players Ever in Order.

1) Wilt Chamberlain
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Michael Jordan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Kobe Bryant
8) Scottie Pippen
9) Oscar Robertson
10) Tim Duncan


11) Shaquille O

[catch24]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?

[Fatal9]

Take it up with the NBA, then.

http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19801981.html
Dude, he wasn't even looking for his shot at all. I'm not sure his exact FGA numbers but he barely took like 10 shots in a couple of those games. There was one, mayybe two, bad shooting games he had the entire series (bad shooting game to me is when you take 15+ shots and shoot poorly). Even more hilarious during this "choke moment" Bird would get a near triple double in every one of those games. EDIT: checked his FGA...and he took only 11 shots in two of those games, he spent his time playmaking (usually for Maxwell/Parish) and rebounding. at that point in his career, Bird literally never forced the issue, that is, he wasn't someone you would isolate repeatedly and ask to score (most his shots were off screens/plays, offensive rebounds, fast break etc etc). Only someone who hasn't seen a single game would cite that series as a "choke", and considering your posting history, it's clear you haven't seen that (or 99% of the games you discuss). So maybe instead of citing an obscure nba.com article, you could make an effort to watch the game instead of looking at point totals and drawing conclusions.

A choke moment for Bird would be the 1988 series vs. Detroit, not a finals series where he was the best player.

[robertshaw_1]

Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?

didnt read this thread....?

[Alhazred]

I do find myself defending him when people call his MVP undeserved or that Gasol is the MVP of the team(which is both trash), but I just wish people would stop putting him up there with Jordan and acting like he was as good as Shaq during the 3peat because that's the other extreme.

How? :wtf: Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo? :confusedshrug:

[D-Rose]

Why the hell is Scottie Pippen #8 on that idiots list?
and Shaq at 11.

robertshaw you have ZERO credibility after seeing that list oh man :roll:

[robertshaw_1]

and Shaq at 11.

robertshaw you have ZERO credibility after seeing that list oh man :roll:


shaq is 11

[catch24]

didnt read this thread....?

What does 1991-93 have to do with his career ranking being totally off?

[ShaqAttack3234]

How? :wtf: Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo? :confusedshrug:

I meant Kobe's 2008 award. Many claim he didn't deserve it which I disagree with 100%.

[robertshaw_1]

What does 1991-93 have to do with his career ranking being totally off?

1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO

[magnax1]

1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO
1-Saying defense is more important then offense is stupid

2-There were plenty of better defensive players then Pippen. Just in his era alone, let alone all time.

[Roundball_Rock]

Funny thing is, Jordan fans turn into Shaq fans in that and find a way to underrate the hell out of Kobe....Shocker.

:lol Good point. The only time they rooted for Kobe was the 2000 WCF.


Believe it or not, it's not simply diehard Jordan jockers who believe this. I've talked to some old school Pistons and Celtics fans back in my Youtube days of basketball discussion who stick him with that label. Well, that's what the dumbasses think, at least. I remember this one Bird fanboy who called Scottie a "dumb kid". He hated Jordan, too.

All I do on YT is watch videos so I can't speak to what people say there. I am not saying the only people who believe it are Jordan fans. What I am saying is the only people who actively push that line as part of an agenda all happen to be Jordan fans. Not all Jordan fans hate Pippen, but nearly all who hate Pippen are Jordan fans.


Speaking of Magic, check his 1981 performance in the first round. He actually air balled a game deciding shot! Bill Simmons mentions it in his book.

True, and Kobe and Jordan also had similar moments (98', 95') but you never hear about that, and deservedly so. They were anomalies. The thing with Pippen is for years one game where he was not even 100% has been pushed. The other game you always hear about is the 2000 WCF Game 7 but there is zero context given on Pippen as a player at that point (some of the people who bash him for 2000 don't even know that Pippen in 00' was not anywhere near 98' Pippen and it is obvious what the big change was: his back injury), how massive underdogs Portland was (did anyone pick Portland to win at the time? Portland stumbled to the finish line and was facing the Shaq/Kobe/Rice 67 win juggernaut with Shaq having arguably the GOAT season), and the minor detail that Pippen dislocated his finger in Game 5. "He willed them back from the brink of elimination...". (they were down 1-3) That wasn't me. That was Bob Costas. Pippen had a monster Game 5 to keep the series alive: 22 points, 6 boards, 6 assists, 5 steals, and 4 blocks all with a dislocated finger and at a million years old. In other words, without that game there would never have been a Game 7. Basically all of Pippen's best playoff games from 1999-2003 were elimination games (99', 00', 02', 03'). I'll talk more about that in the 1999-2003 thread but don't you think this is an odd trend? A "choker" having his best playoff game in a given year in elimination games? :wtf:


How? Who deserved it more than him that year, Alonzo?

He meant Kobe's MVP in 08'.

[Alhazred]

Dude, he wasn't even looking for his shot at all. I'm not sure his exact FGA numbers but he barely took like 10 shots in a couple of those games. There was one, mayybe two, bad shooting games he had the entire series (bad shooting game to me is when you take 15+ shots and shoot poorly). Even more hilarious during this "choke moment" Bird would get a near triple double in every one of those games. EDIT: checked his FGA...and he took only 11 shots in two of those games, he spent his time playmaking (usually for Maxwell/Parish) and rebounding. at that point in his career, Bird literally never forced the issue, that is, he wasn't someone you would isolate repeatedly and ask to score (most his shots were off screens/plays, offensive rebounds, fast break etc etc).

Fatal, I mentioned that Bird made up for it with his passing and rebounding. He did have trouble scoring on Reid, though, you have to admit that. He did average 22 points a game that year in the playoffs, after all.

Here is a link to the box scores.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1981.htm#Game%20#3

Game 3

Bird had 3/11 field goals

Game 4

3/11 field goals

Game 5

5/16 field goals

The only reason I mentioned the 81 series is because it's comparable to some of Scottie's games where he'd have a poor shooting night but still contribute in other ways like game 5 of the 98 Finals, sorry if it sounded as if I was saying Bird had a bad performance overall. "Choke" was definitely the wrong term.

Even the announcers agree with me on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr-XEqQFYCc&feature=related

Skip to 1:35 and the announcers mention Reid's performance defending Larry.

Game 5 link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYoVrTNIJ8A&feature=related

"Larry Bird can do other things than score, he doesn't need to score, but boy, they're gonna have to get more than eight points from him."

At 1:25 they also mention Bird watching videos of Reid trying to figure out how to be more effective offensively.

[catch24]

1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.

2- Pippen was the GREATEST defensive player to ever play the game.

3- Pippen, then, is top ten player al time.

4- IMO

:roll:

[Alhazred]

I meant Kobe's 2008 award. Many claim he didn't deserve it which I disagree with 100%.

Sorry, misread.

[robertshaw_1]

1-Saying defense is more important then offense is stupid

2-There were plenty of better defensive players then Pippen. Just in his era alone, let alone all time.

Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.

[magnax1]

Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.
Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2. There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.

[Alhazred]

Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2. There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.

Rice?! At least say Grant Hill, man.

[magnax1]

Rice?! At least say Grant Hill, man.
I think its plausible that they win 1 or 2 championships with Glen in the 90's. 96 they're still the best team and everyone is right in their prime. 91 and 92 they could get either year, but it'd be pretty flat even.

[Alhazred]

I think its plausible that they win 1 or 2 championships with Glen in the 90's. 96 they're still the best team and everyone is right in their prime. 91 and 92 they could get either year, but it'd be pretty flat even.

I don't know. Glen Rice wasn't nearly as useful as Scottie. He was a fairly one-dimensional scorer overall.

[robertshaw_1]

Trade Pippen with Glen rice and they win at least 1, probably 2. There are plenty of players who would win a couple rings. Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different. (on a somewhat related note, Dumars doesn't get any recognition. Hes a top 5 perimeter defender and was just as good as Isiah on those championship teams)
10 out of the last 25 last champions were the worse defensive teams. barely any difference, especially conisdering 4 were almost completely even.


glen rice!!!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

Put Prime Dumars in his place, and they're basically no different.

:roll:


Rice?! At least say Grant Hill, man.

I actually agree with him (assuming we transport prime Rice back, not 91' Rice in 91'). I can see Jordan winning in 91' and 96' without a superstar caliber "sidekick" like Pippen in those years so long as he had a legit all-star but there is no way you can plug in a random all-star for 92', 93', 97', or 98' and say the Bulls would win. The Bulls easily could have lost in those seasons had they not had the luxury of having two superstars.

The thing is why is there always so much talk about other players Jordan could win with? The assumption is Pippen could not win with anyone other than Jordan, which is a joke. Prime Pippen on the 00' Blazers, or even a Pippen without the 98' finals injury, on that team wins a ring. You don't exactly have to conjure up a wild scenario like Pippen playing with Shaq and Clyde Drexler with Grant Hill coming off the bench to envision Pippen winning a ring without Jordan.

The bottom line is Jordan himself did not believe the Bulls could plug in any random talented player into Pippen's place. See Jordan's opposition to trading Pippen for young talent. See Jordan retiring after Pippen finally was traded. If Jordan could coast with any talented player why not push for, or at least allow, a trade for a player like Kemp or McDyess*? In the long term that would appear to be better, no? The other "sidekick" would be young and Jordan could have kept winning rings until he was 38 or 39 instead of being paired with an older player like Pippen whose days as a superstar player were numbered by that point. Was Jordan too dumb to realize what some of his fans "know"? I have heard MJ called many things but dumb is not one of them. There is a reason for that!

*Yes, we know what happened to Kemp and McDyess but at the time in theory--if you believe MJ could win with any talented teammate--it would be better in the long-term to trade Pippen for someone like Kemp based on youth.

[robertshaw_1]

Rice?? NO WAY...no even mention it..

[magnax1]

What? Dumars is as good of a passer, and as good of a defender. He was a worse scorer but not a huge difference. Though Dumars prime was quite a bit shorter then pippen's.
I agree that Pippen would win on the 00 Blazers but I don't think he could win on a team where hes the only first option if you get what I'm saying. It'd have to be a team effort like the 00 Blazers, or 04 Pistons because he just wasn't a good enough scorer to take over games on offense.

[Bigsmoke]

1- Defense wins championships, Offense wins games.


but there has never been a defense that was good enough to win over prime Shaqs offense.

[robertshaw_1]

but there has never been a defense that was good enough to win over prime Shaqs offense.

Shaqs Prime Offense????

His prime was only 3 years??????????????? (00: Miracle against portland, 01, and 02, steal against sacramento)

And in 03 against spurs????? or in 98 and 99...???


oooh....I see.....

[Roundball_Rock]

What? Dumars is as good of a passer, and as good of a defender. He was a worse scorer but not a huge difference. Though Dumars prime was quite a bit shorter then pippen's.
I agree that Pippen would win on the 00 Blazers but I don't think he could win on a team where hes the only first option if you get what I'm saying. It'd have to be a team effort like the 00 Blazers, or 04 Pistons because he just wasn't a good enough scorer to take over games on offense.

What other first option was there on the 00' Blazers? 25 year old, borderline all-star Rasheed Wallace? 35 year old Sabonis with shot knees? If prime Pippen is on that team he is the clear cut best player. Another realistic scenario (almost happened) is the 94' Bulls with Hornacek replacing Myers as SG. You are acting as if Pippen was Chauncey Billups.

He was a top 10 scorer in the L without Jordan in his prime. I see your point, but his greatness was in other areas. Using your logic Bill Russell would never exist since he couldn't drop 50 on a given night. Or Bill Walton, who led a team to a ring averaging something like 18 ppg. 30/12/8 is as valuable, if not more valuable, than 45/3/2. Then there is Pippen's defensive dominance. Pippen could score 4 points and dominate a game. This is one reason why some great scorers are ringless. When their shot was off they were useless.

Dumars simply was not as good a player. Where was he between Isiah's decline and the drafting of Grant Hill? He wasn't carrying teams to 55 wins. Don't get me wrong. He was a great player but he was never a top 5 player. Yes, I know you think Pippen never was top 5 either but the majority view in his prime had him top 5, especially from 1994-96.

[magnax1]

What other first option was there on the 00' Blazers? 25 year old, borderline all-star Rasheed Wallace? If prime Pippen is on that team he is the clear cut best player. Another realistic scenario is the 94' Bulls with Hornacek replacing Myers as SG.
I agree he was the absoulute best player no question, but on offense he wouldn't have to score 20 ppg and do everything for the team in the last couple minutes of a close game. Just like KG was obviously the best player in 08, but had trouble winning as the first offensive option.

Dumars simply was not as good a player. Where was he between Isiah's decline and the drafting of Grant Hill? He wasn't carrying teams to 55 wins.
His second best player in 94 was terry Mills and his third best was 14-7 Isiah who played 60 games. Quite a large difference from Horace grant Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson. Especially considering 94-96 was Pippen's absoulute peak and dumars was leaving his prime in 94.

[juju151111]

Saying offense is more important then defense is stupid Believe me.

In fact, trade Pippen WITH ANY player of his era (i want the name) and Bulls wins 0 championships.
LMFAO :lol :roll: :oldlol: Shaq,Grant hill,Clyde,Alanzo,Mt,payton,Stackton,karl malone, etc....

[ShaqAttack3234]

No way would the Bulls be as good with Dumars. They lose the versatility of having either Jordan or Pippen guard positions 1-3, they lose Pippen running the offense like a point guard from the SF position, they lose Pippen's rebounding and they lose Pippen's open court game.

[Alhazred]

No way would the Bulls be as good with Dumars. They lose the versatility of having either Jordan or Pippen guard positions 1-3, they lose Pippen running the offense like a point guard from the SF position, they lose Pippen's rebounding and they lose Pippen's open court game.

Co-sign

[magnax1]

I guess I didn't really think about losing versatility, but they definitely aren't much worse. He was the closest fit to Pippen i could think of. There aren't many players like Pippen. Payton is closer, but they still lose a bit of versatility.

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree he was the absoulute best player no question, but on offense he wouldn't have to score 20 ppg and do everything for the team in the last couple minutes of a close game.

You are simultaneously right and wrong. I agree, in such a situation he would not need to score a ton every night but that does not necessarily mean he would not have to carry a huge load. Look at what he actually did on the 2000 Blazers in the playoffs:

*Serve as their primary playmaker
*Serve as their defensive anchor
*Lead them in rebounding
*Lead them in minutes (why was an ancient Pippen getting so many minutes? He was that important to the team)
*Be their on-court leader
*Be their locker room leader
*Score only 3 less ppg than their leading scorer (Wallace)

If he was in his prime he would have been asked to do even more, especially regarding scoring! This is what is lost in the shuffle. Given his versatility and all-around game he carried an unusually large workload, especially in the years he was a "sidekick." How many "sidekicks" had as much responsibility on their team as Pippen did? People talk about 94' but forget that he had to do practically everything for that team, to the point that commentators were laughing in amazement over it. He lead them in every category in the playoffs (23/8/5 etc.), aside from blocks where he was "only" second, while serving as their leader and defensive anchor.


Quite a large difference from Horace grant Toni Kukoc

Kukoc was a 11/4/3 43% shooting rookie in 94'.

Not really a big difference. Dumars' best years were the early 90's when Isiah had declined, right? Look at what Pippen did in 95' after Grant left. Before MJ came back he had his team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th (third best record in the East after the ASG at 11-6. Keep in mind they lost two starters from the previous season. They elevated Kukoc from 6th man to starter without finding an adequate replacement. it took time to adjust to significant changes.). Did he have a great "supporting cast"? Kukoc was his second best player and Kukoc was playing out of position at PF, where he was a joke on the glass (5 rpg) and defensively. The Bulls had zero interior defense and zero rebounding. What Pippen is criticized by some for in 95' is what KG, Kobe, Durant and Wade are lionized for doing recently.

A top 5 player could lead practically any team to above .500 imo; Dumars was not at that level.


I guess I didn't really think about losing versatility, but they definitely aren't much worse. He was the closest fit to Pippen i could think of. There aren't many players like Pippen. Payton is closer, but they still lose a bit of versatility.

You tend to compare players based on skill-sets. You have to factor in skill level too, though. Iggy is a similar player to Pippen. Does that mean you could plug Iggy onto the Bulls and win rings? Of course Dumars is closer to Pippen than Iggy is but you get my point.

Can anyone explain why there is such an obsession over who else Jordan could have won with? Prime Pippen would have won with Rasheed Wallace as his "sidekick." Does that somehow make Jordan a worse player?

[magnax1]

You are simultaneously right and wrong. I agree, in such a situation he would not need to score a ton every night but that does not necessarily mean he would not have to carry a huge load. Look at what he actually did on the 2000 Blazers in the playoffs:

*Serve as their primary playmaker
*Serve as their defensive anchor
*Lead them in rebounding
*Lead them in minutes (why was an ancient Pippen getting so many minutes? He was that important to the team)
*Be their on-court leader
*Be their locker room leader
*Score only 3 less ppg than their leading scorer (Wallace)

He had to carry a huge load, he just didn't have to be the absoulute first option on offense in the last minutes.

This is what is lost in the shuffle. Given his versatility and all-around game he carried an unusually large workload, especially in the years he was a "sidekick." How many "sidekicks" had as much responsibility on their team as Pippen did? People talk about 94' but forget that he had to do practically everything for that team. He lead them in every category in the playoffs (23/8/5 etc.), aside from blocks where he was "only" second, while serving as their leader and defensive anchor.

Kevin McHale could've done the same without Bird, its not like its unusual for the second best player on a championship team to be able to bring a team into the playoffs. thats not taking away from what he did, I'm just saying pretty much every championship team except for a few had great second options, probably most were as good as Pippen.


Not really a big difference. Dumars' best years were the early 90's when Isiah had declined, right? Look at what Pippen did in 95'. Before MJ came back he had his team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th (third best record in the East after the ASG at 11-6). Did he have a great "supporting cast"? Kukoc was his second best player and Kukoc was playing out of position at PF, where he was a joke on the glass (5 rpg) and defensively. The Bulls had zero interior defense and zero rebounding. What Pippen is criticized by some for in 95' is what KG, Kobe, Durant and Wade are lionized for doing recently.

The bulls did suck that year.



You tend to compare players based on skill-sets. You have to factor in skill level too, though. Iggy is a similar player to Pippen. Does that mean you could plug Iggy onto the Bulls and win rings? Of course Dumars is closer to Pippen than Iggy is but you get my point.
Payton is the closest. Basically flat even even though they are different positions.

[Roundball_Rock]

He had to carry a huge load, he just didn't have to be the absoulute first option on offense in the last minutes.

He would have been if he was in his prime back then. Plus, why boil down a game to the final 2-3 minutes and even then only to scoring? When was Bill Russell the first option to score?


Kevin McHale could've done the same without Bird, its not like its unusual for the second best player on a championship team to be able to bring a team into the playoffs

Was McHale asked to do as much as Pippen? For instance, was McHale running his team's offense? McHale is not a good example. He was a guy who would be "the man" on practically any other team.

All that said, McHale had a year without Bird when he was 30 or 31. He had the whole team intact minus Bird (sound familiar?). The result? Below .500 without Bird. I have heard he was hurt a bit that year but he was still putting up 23/8.


I'm just saying pretty much every championship team except for a few had great second options, probably most were as good as Pippen.

I am not surprised to hear you say that but I will pose this for general readers. Let's look at the most recent champions and their "second options."

Gasol, Pierce, Parker, 06' Shaq, whoever it was on the 04' Pistons, and :oldlol: 03' Spurs. Were any close to Pippen? Certainly none had the responsibilities Pippen had.

For further context here are the "#2 options" the Bulls defeated in the NBA finals:

Worthy, Terry Porter, K. Johnson, Kemp, (old) Stockton.

How about the ECF? Dumars, Daughetry, Starks, Penny, Mourning, Smits.

None of these players listed were as good as Pippen. You make it seem as if Pippen was a dime a dozen player.


The bulls did suck that year.

edit: did you mean the team or the Bulls' "cast" pre-Jordan?

Why did you ignore KG, Kobe, Wade, and Durant? In Pippen's case all that matters is they did not win 50+; the others are heroes for reaching .500. Pippen had the team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th. They were on pace for 45 wins even without Jordan and that would have gotten them 5th place, ahead of the 43 win Cavs. KG missed the playoffs how many times? Durant may miss it this year. We know about Kobe. Wade? May miss it this year, barely got past .500 last year (43-39). Yet they are all heroes for getting to 43-45 wins?


Payton is the closest. Basically flat even even though they are different positions.

Except for that crucial difference in height and hence versatility. Pippen did everything Payton did but was more versatile and an excellent rebounder. Garnett and Lebron are similar players to Pippen as well. I notice Jordan fans (and whatever you are. Let's call you a Jazz fan who strongly admires MJ) only compare Pippen to players everyone else agrees were worse them him, Payton or even Iggy or Odom. Why not Havelick, Garnett, and Lebron? The all-time great most similar to Pippen is Havelick.

Speaking of Payton, he would have won a ring as the best player on his team in 96' had he not run into a 72 win juggernaut. He had horrible timing.

[magnax1]

[QUOTE]He would have been if he was in his prime back then. Plus, why boil down a game to the final 2-3 minutes and even then only to scoring? When was Bill Russell the first option to score?

I'm not! I'm just saying that would be a very good place for him to win. He'd be the best player.


Was McHale asked to do as much as Pippen? For instance, was McHale running his team's offense?
I certainly can't say he did less for his team.



I am not surprised to hear you say that but I will pose this for general readers. Let's look at the most recent champions and their "second options."

Gasol, Pierce, Parker. Were any close to Pippen? Certainly none had the responsibilities Pippen had.
No, not in the 00's but since the 90's BBall has fallen off in my opinion. Especially the early thousands. Looking at teams that had obviously defined first and second best player the second best were
Pierce
Kobe
McHale
Drexler
Wilt
Oscar
Shaq
etc.
Most are pretty close to Pippen


Why did you ignore KG, Kobe, Wade, and Durant? In Pippen's case all that matters is they did not win 50+; the others are heroes for reaching .500. Pippen had the team in 6th and closing rapidly on 5th. They were on pace for 45 wins even without Jordan and that would have gotten them 5th place, ahead of the 43 win Cavs. KG missed the playoffs how many times? Durant may miss it this year. We know about Kobe. Wade? May miss it this year, barely got past 42 wins last year.
All those teams were still worse then Pippens. Especially Kobe and KG's. In 07 KG's best players were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. You'd have trouble winning a championship with those as your fifth and sixth best players. And I'm sure everyone knows about Kobe in 06.





Speaking of Payton, he would have won a ring as the best player on his team in 96' had he not run into a 72 win juggernaut. He had horrible timing.

I doubt they'd make it past the Magic, but they'd definitely have a chance.

[Alhazred]

All that said, McHale had a year without Bird when he was 30 or 31. He had the whole team intact minus Bird (sound familiar?). The result? Below .500 without Bird. I have heard he was hurt a bit that year but he was still putting up 23/8.

Roundball, I agree with you about Pippen, but don't be too hard on Kevin. Parish and DJ were both in their mid-thirties and they had a new coach. Also, Ainge was traded away to Sacramento for Ed Pinckney. With all of that going on, they still finished a game above .500(42-40 overall).

The team with Bird in the lineup that year was 2-4, by the way.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01/gamelog/1989/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1989.html

[Alhazred]

All those teams were still worse then Pippens. Especially Kobe and KG's. In 07 KG's best players were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. You'd have trouble winning a championship with those as your fifth and sixth best players. And I'm sure everyone knows about Kobe in 06.

The 95 Bulls were pretty weak, you have to admit.

[magnax1]

The 95 Bulls were pretty weak, you have to admit.
Yeah, but you couldn't compare them to KG or Kobe's 06-07 teams. Both would've been below 15 wins without them.

[Roundball_Rock]

I certainly can't say he did less for his team.

But he did. He wasn't running his team's offense. He did not have the same defensive importance. He scored about as much as Pippen. The only area where he did more was rebounding, which is to be expected since he was a PF.


No, not in the 00's but since the 90's BBall has fallen off in my opinion. Especially the early thousands. Looking at teams that had obviously defined first and second best player the second best were
Pierce
Kobe
McHale
Drexler
Wilt
Oscar
Shaq
etc.
Most are pretty close to Pippen

I edited my last post to include the "#2" guys on the teams they defeated in the NBA finals and ECF. Pippen>all of them on all-time lists, except Stockton who is always ranked right around Pippen. You could argue Penny being comparable as well since young Penny was a superstar but that is about it. Penny, Stockton, maybe Mourning and Stockton was old by the time the Bulls faced him.


All those teams were still worse then Pippens. Especially Kobe and KG's.

That is debatable but besides the point. The point is Pippen with trash in his prime was able to lead them to contention, just like those guys.

Looking at Wade and Durant this year, Beasely and Westbrook are better than 95' Kukoc. Plus, you can't just look at talent. The Bulls had a glaring weakness in the interior with no PF or C.

How about KG? He was in the 45-50 win range perennially and then had two years of missing the playoffs. Let's look at a few of his teams.

44 wins in 05' (KG was 28 years old): He had Sprewell, Wally Z, and Sam Cassell

33 wins in 06': He had Wally scoring 20 ppg and Davis 19 ppg

Second year Kukoc and BJ Armstrong are light years better? Cassell>Kukoc, Sprewell>Armstrong, Z>Harper?

Even in Kobe's case, Odom>Kukoc, although I agree as a whole Kobe had a much worse team.

The Bulls in 94' sucked without Pippen and that was when they had Grant. They were a 25-30 win caliber team without Pippen. What do you think the 95' Bulls would have done without Pippen before MJ came back? Kukoc was better in his second year, Harper was an upgrade at PG, but they lost their second best player a year after losing Jordan and they also lost their starting C.


I doubt they'd make it past the Magic, but they'd definitely have a chance.

Keep in mind Grant got hurt in the ECF that year. I can't see the Magic beating the Sonics without Grant.



Roundball, I agree with you about Pippen, but don't be too hard on Kevin. Parish and DJ were both in their mid-thirties and they had a new coach. Also, Ainge was traded away to Sacramento for Ed Pinckney. With all of that going on, they still finished a game above .500(42-40 overall).

I like him. As I said, he would be the "#1" guy on practically any other team. He is an example of too much being made out of the "sidekick" thing. If McHale played for a random team instead of being on the same team as arguably one of the 5 greatest players ever does that suddenly make McHale a better player than he was?

Good info, though. I assumed they were above .500 with Bird and just below without him. Still, that team>the 95' Bulls. They still had Parish and DJ as effective players. Of course, McHale was hurt so it wasn't prime McHale. I am sure with prime McHale they would win 50+.

[Alhazred]

Yeah, but you couldn't compare them to KG or Kobe's 06-07 teams. Both would've been below 15 wins without them.

The 95 Bulls would have been pretty bad minus Pippen, too. No MJ, Scottie, or Grant/Rodman? Sounds like the 99 Bulls to me.

[Alhazred]

I like him. As I said, he would be the "#1" guy on practically any other team. He is an example of too much being made out of the "sidekick" thing. If McHale played for a random team instead of being on the same team as arguably one of the 5 greatest players ever does that suddenly make McHale a better player than he was?

Good point. In 87, he averaged a 26/10 on a stacked Celtics team. Imagine if he was given more scoring opportunities.


Good info, though. I assumed they were above .500 with Bird and just below without him. Still, that team>the 95' Bulls. They still had Parish and DJ as effective players. Of course, McHale was hurt so it wasn't prime McHale. I am sure with prime McHale they would win 50+.

Yeah, Bird was dealing with his own injuries at the time. 1989 just wasn't the Celtics' year. I admit that the 89 Celtics were better than the 95 Bulls, though. With Grant, I thought the Bulls were pretty solid but they missed him quite a bit when he left for Orlando.

[magnax1]

I edited my last post to include the "#2" guys on the teams they defeated in the NBA finals and ECF. Pippen>all of them on all-time lists, except Stockton who is always ranked right around Pippen. You could argue Penny being comparable as well since young Penny was a superstar but that is about it. Penny, Stockton, maybe Mourning and Stockton was old by the time the Bulls faced him.

Thats true, and thats one of the reasons they didn't win. The only ones I can think of are Tim hardaway/mourning and Kevin Johnson


That is debatable but besides the point. The point is Pippen with trash in his prime was able to lead them to contention, just like those guys.


Looking at Wade and Durant this year, Beasely and Westbrook are better than 95' Kukoc. Plus, you can't just look at talent. The Bulls had a glaring weakness in the interior with no PF or C.
yeah, so its fairly similar though BJ armstrong and Ron Harper were quite a bit better then anything beyond Jermaine O'Neal and Beasley. Durants cast is quite a bit better then Pippen's


How about KG? He was in the 45-50 win range perennially and then had two years of missing the playoffs. Let's look at a few of his teams.

44 wins in 05' (KG was 28 years old): He had Sprewell, Wally Z, and Sam Cassell
Cassel was injured, Sprewell played terrible and Wally wasn't even very good. Even though they still won about the same amount of games as Pippen


33 wins in 06': He had Wally scoring 20 ppg and Davis 19 ppg
Davis was traded for Wally, and both just plain sucked. Especially Davis.

Second year Kukoc and BJ Armstrong are light years better? Cassell>Kukoc, Sprewell>Armstrong, Z>Harper?
Kukoc>Injured Cassell who only started 40 games, Sprewell=Armstrong and Wally was a bit better the Harper

[EricForman]

this is sorta unrelated to this thread, but i didnt want to start a random ass thread just to talk about the old days (i hate that. most of them threads are trash)

but watch this video

http://30for30.espn.com/film/winning-time-reggie-miller-vs-the-new-york-knicks.html

a few notes:

1: anyone who still doubts the 90s perimeter guys had it tougher than now is either too young or ignorant, or too-on-kobe's-nuts

2: i love how they showed clips of pacers and knicks talking about how rough and bad ass they were... yet they never won nothing. not cause they weren't good. but cause jordan/pip was that bad ass. ESPECIALLY jordan (yup roundball), who stood up to the Knicks more than anyone else on his team.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 95 Bulls would have been pretty bad minus Pippen, too. No MJ, Scottie, or Grant/Rodman? Sounds like the 99 Bulls to me.

Good point. You could even argue that the 99' Bulls were better than the 95' Bulls without Pippen or Jordan. Kukoc would be the best player on either team and in 99' he was at his peak, not a second year player new to American basketball. BJ Armstrong>99' Harper but the rest of the team is similar. If anything the 99' team was slightly better. Brent Barry>whoever you count as the 95' Bulls' third best player in this scenario (Will Perdue? Kerr? ), It doesn't even matter beyond this. It is scrubs vs. scrubs after this.

Keep in mind in 95' Pippen became the second player in history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. He led them in minutes too I believe. He ran their offense, anchored their defense. If his team was so good why was he asked to do so much?



Good point. In 87, he averaged a 26/10 on a stacked Celtics team. Imagine if he was given more scoring opportunities.


He is in the conversation for top 5 PF of all-time. You mentioned 87'. He was 4th in MVP voting that year. Legit "sidekicks" do not finish that high in MVP voting or make all-NBA first team. The sad thing is being a "sidekick" will hurt him when he is, say, compared to Dirk. They are comparable in terms of talent but one was "the man" on his team for years and losing as "the man">winning as a "sidekick" according to a lot of people.


Yeah, Bird was dealing with his own injuries at the time. 1989 just wasn't the Celtics' year. I admit that the 89 Celtics were better than the 95 Bulls, though. With Grant, I thought the Bulls were pretty solid but they missed him quite a bit when he left for Orlando.

The 95' Bulls would have been good if they had a rebounding/defensive PF like Grant or Rodman. What do you expect from a team whose starting "power" forward is averaging 5 boards and was not exactly a tough defender? Kukoc was a very good scorer and playmaker but having him as a PF is a joke. All he had was the height of a PF. He lacked the mentality or strength needed to be a viable PF. Who did the Bulls have at center? Will Perdue and Luc Longley.

It is a shame the Bulls used their free agent $$$$ on what turned out to be a washed up Ron Harper and not a PF that year. They could survive with a scrub at SG; they could not survive zero rebounding and Kukoc and Perdue as their "intimidators" in the paint.


yeah, so its fairly similar though BJ armstrong and Ron Harper were quite a bit better then anything beyond Jermaine O'Neal and Beasley. Durants cast is quite a bit better then Pippen's

Harper was not as good as O'Neal imo. That was washed up, defensive specialist Harper not prime 20 ppg Harper.


Cassel was injured, Sprewell played terrible and Wally wasn't even very good. Even though they still won about the same amount of games as Pippen

I factored all that in. Cassell played 60 games, Sprewell was old and Wally was good for a years. Even with Cassell's injury, Sprewell being old I would still take Cassell/Sprewell/Wally over second year Kukoc/Armstrong/old, post-injury Harper.


Kukoc>Injured Cassell who only started 40 games, Sprewell=Armstrong and Wally was a bit better the Harper

So we both agree they were comparably bad "casts." So why is one guy criticized for producing the same results and the other lionized? :confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

I factored all that in. Cassell played 60 games, Sprewell was old and Wally was good for a years. Even with Cassell's injury, Sprewell being old I would still take Cassell/Sprewell/Wally over second year Kukoc/Armstrong/old, post-injury Harper.



I don't really dispute any of that. So we both agree they were comparably bad "casts." So why is one guy criticized for producing the same results and the other lionized? :confusedshrug:
I never knew he was lionized.
Though I'd still take Kukoc Armstrong and Harper because they brought alot more defensive intensity. Plus KG's coach was quite a bit worse

[Alhazred]

Good point. You could even argue that the 99' Bulls were better than the 95' Bulls without Pippen or Jordan. Kukoc would be the best player on either team and in 99' he was at his peak, not a second year player new to American basketball. BJ Armstrong>99' Harper but the rest of the team is similar. If anything the 99' team was slightly better. Brent Barry>whoever you count as the 95' Bulls' third best player in this scenario (Will Perdue? Kerr? ), It doesn't even matter beyond this. It is scrubs vs. scrubs after this.

Yeah, that sounds about right, actually. I think Phil Jackson had a big impact, too. If he had coached the 99 squad, they probably could have won 30, 35 games over an 82 game season. With Tim Floyd, though? They were doomed.


Keep in mind in 95' Pippen became the second player in history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. He led them in minutes too I believe. He ran their offense, anchored their defense. If his team was so good why was he asked to do so much?

:applause:


He is in the conversation for top 5 PF of all-time. You mentioned 87'. He was 4th in MVP voting that year. Legit "sidekicks" do not finish that high in MVP voting or make all-NBA first team. The sad thing is being a "sidekick" will hurt him when he is, say, compared to Dirk. They are comparable in terms of talent but one was "the man" on his team for years and losing as "the man">winning as a "sidekick" according to a lot of people.

The thing you have to ask yourself is, would Dirk be willing to do the things McHale did for Boston, like be a scoring threat in the post and play defense? It's like when comparing Scottie with other players. It would be cool to team Michael with another star like a prime Vince Carter, but would he be willing to do all of the same things that Scottie was asked to do? Same goes for Glen Rice, Adrian Dantley, or any of the 80s high-scoring forwards.


The 95' Bulls would have been good if they had a rebounding/defensive PF like Grant or Rodman. What do you expect from a team whose starting "power" forward is averaging 5 boards and was not exactly a tough defender? Kukoc was a very good scorer and playmaker but having him as a PF is a joke. All he had was the height of a PF. He lacked the mentality or strength needed to be a viable PF. Who did the Bulls have at center? Will Perdue and Luc Longley.

Yep, I wish Horace had stayed, but apparently he and Krause were on bad terms. It's a shame he left, he was a very good role player, almost good enough to be a number 2.


It is a shame the Bulls used their free agent $$$$ on what turned out to be a washed up Ron Harper and not a PF that year. They could survive with a scrub at SG; they could not survive zero rebounding and Kukoc and Perdue as their "intimidators" in the paint.

True, but although it seemed like a bad decision that year, at least Ron helped out with the second three peat.

[Roundball_Rock]

I never knew he was lionized.
Though I'd still take Kukoc Armstrong and Harper because they brought alot more defensive intensity. Plus KG's coach was quite a bit worse

Lionized is too strong but those years are used as a mark in his favor. "Oh man, remember when KG led scrubs to 45 wins? What a great player!"

I can see a case for Kukoc/Armstrong/Harper but they weren't significantly better, if at all. Legit point on the coach, though.


Yeah, that sounds about right, actually. I think Phil Jackson had a big impact, too. If he had coached the 99 squad, they probably could have won 30, 35 games over an 82 game season. With Tim Floyd, though? They were doomed.

Jackson would have helped but I don't think a coach is worth 20 wins, although it is difficult to gauge a coach's impact. Yeah, maybe he could get them to 25-30 but I can't see a coach being worth 20 wins. Look at Jackson himself with prime Kobe. They struggled to get to 45 ish wins. Imagine he with prime Kukoc as his best guy. I think what a great coach can do is get a team to the next level. Look at PJ. The Bulls and Lakers did not get over the hump until he showed up. Or look at what Riley did with the Knicks and then the Heat. They never won (I am talking about the 90's Heat) but they went from run-of-the-mill playoff teams to legit contenders under him.


The thing you have to ask yourself is, would Dirk be willing to do the things McHale did for Boston, like be a scoring threat in the post and play defense? It's like when comparing Scottie with other players. It would be cool to team Michael with another star like a prime Vince Carter, but would he be willing to do all of the same things that Scottie was asked to do?

Great points. People ignore roles, aside from a generic pecking order. A lot of these fantasy pairings would be dead on arrival because few superstars would be willing to accept "sidekick" status. McHale or Pippen easily could have asked for a trade to another team where they could be "the man."


Yep, I wish Horace had stayed, but apparently he and Krause were on bad terms. It's a shame he left, he was a very good role player, almost good enough to be a number 2.

Yeah, and then there was the Reinsdorf he-said she said thing. He also was tired of Jackson. I think he was good enough to be a #2 on a championship team--so long as he was teamed with a top 3-4 player like he was with Pippen in 94'. The thing is he was not a great or very good #2. He was as good as Starks and a bit better than Thorpe or Smits. I would take Willis over him, but not by much. All these guys were "#2's" on contenders. He wasn't as good as Kemp and light years worse than 94' Stockton but he was comparable to the typical "#2" in the L. He was a regular "#2" but he was very good as a #3. Just compare him to the #3's on these teams. Grant was a legit all-star, unlike BJ Armstrong who was voted in by the fans while putting up 10' AI type numbers.


True, but although it seemed like a bad decision that year, at least Ron helped out with the second three peat.

He was a bust in the sense that he was brought in to be a second scorer who also would fill a glaring need at SG. He had been a 18- 20ish ppg guy perennially but wound up being a single digit scorer on the Bulls. He was an upgrade over Myers but at what cost? That money would have been better used on any rebounding/defensive PF, even if it was not one of the caliber of Grant.

You are right, though, that he played a significant role on the title teams as a defensive specialist, especially against Stockton when Jordan was old and MJ's energy had to be conserved on defense.

[Alhazred]

Jackson would have helped but I don't think a coach is worth 20 wins, although it is difficult to gauge a coach's impact. Yeah, maybe he could get them to 25-30 but I can't see a coach being worth 20 wins. Look at Jackson himself with prime Kobe. They struggled to get to 45 ish wins. Imagine he with prime Kukoc as his best guy. I think what a great coach can do is get a team to the next level. Look at PJ. The Bulls and Lakers did not get over the hump until he showed up. Or look at what Riley did with the Knicks and then the Heat. They never won (I am talking about the 90's Heat) but they went from run-of-the-mill playoff teams to legit contenders under him.

I'd agree with you regarding most coaches, but this is Phil we're talking about, arguably the GOAT. Then again, you may be right.



Great points. People ignore roles, aside from a generic pecking order. A lot of these fantasy pairings would be dead on arrival because few superstars would be willing to accept "sidekick" status. McHale or Pippen easily could have asked for a trade to another team where they could be "the man."

Yeah, I think McHale in Milwaukee would have made a pretty nice team along with Marques Johnson and Sidney Moncrief. Pippen, likewise would have fit in with a number of teams, such as Seattle, Portland or Denver, even with Dikembe.




Yeah, and then there was the Reinsdorf he-said she said thing. He also was tired of Jackson. I think he was good enough to be a #2 on a championship team--so long as he was teamed with a top 3-4 player like he was with Pippen in 94'. The thing is he was not a great or very good #2. He was as good as Starks and a bit better than Thorpe or Smits. I would take Willis over him, but not by much. All these guys were "#2's" on contenders. He wasn't as good as Kemp and light years worse than 94' Stockton but he was comparable to the typical "#2" in the L. He was a regular "#2" but he was very good as a #3. Just compare him to the #3's on these teams. Grant was a legit all-star, unlike BJ Armstrong who was voted in by the fans while putting up 10' AI type numbers.

I agree about Kemp. He was a fave of mine all the way back to 1996. Grant simply wasn't at the same level. He's still one of my favorite Bulls players, though, especially after reading the Jordan Rules.

He was definitely a much better third option, though, I agree.


He was a bust in the sense that he was brought in to be a second scorer who also would fill a glaring need at SG. He had been a 18- 20ish ppg guy perennially but wound up being a single digit scorer on the Bulls. He was an upgrade over Myers but at what cost? That money would have been better used on any rebounding/defensive PF, even if it was not one of the caliber of Grant.

Yeah, that's true. I actually read a few people say Scottie was just a system player or something like that as a putdown, which I found odd considering the Triangle offense isn't easy. Like you said, Harper had trouble adjusting. Jason Kidd didn't adjust well to it, either from what I read in the Book of Basketball. Here's what Simmons had to say.


The Dallas(Mavericks) situation imploded for three reasons:three young stars were given too much money, too soon; two feuded over singer Toni Braxton(who can rank splitting up the mid-nineties Mavs right up there with her six Grammy awards); and new Mavs coach Jim Cleamons decided to adopt Chicago's "triangle" even though he had the most gifted open-court point guard since Magic Johnson. (I remember almost crying the first time I went to a game and saw Kidd completely shackled in that triangle. It was like paying for a Sharon Stone movie back then where she didn't get naked.)

[OldSchoolBBall]

Right. Increased minutes automatically makes have a career series :rolleyes:.

No, not JUST increased mpg, but also increased FGA (+4) and the fact that the team's 20+ ppg scorer was missing, necessitating more scoring from their other players, especially Robertson, who was a proven 17+ ppg scorer just a season prior.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'd agree with you regarding most coaches, but this is Phil we're talking about, arguably the GOAT. Then again, you may be right.


It is an interesting question I have not given much thought. It is a good topic for a thread, though. I haven't look at "before/after" records of teams after great coaches leaving. My guess is that even the ones who can turn teams around take time. Look at Larry Brown. Time after time he joins a team and makes it a contender but has he ever really went to a team and improved it 15-20 wins right off the bat?

The thing is Jackson with arguably peak Kobe and prime Odom struggled to get 45 wins so it is hard to see him winning 35 games with peak Kukoc and scrubs. I am not saying it would be impossible, though. We have seen teams in the past overachieve despite lacking talent on paper, with the 10' Rockets being a great example.


Yeah, I think McHale in Milwaukee would have made a pretty nice team along with Marques Johnson and Sidney Moncrief. Pippen, likewise would have fit in with a number of teams, such as Seattle, Portland or Denver, even with Dikembe.

Yeah, I just tried to name random teams. I think McHale was comparable in ability to someone like Dirk, Drexler, Ewing or Payton. All four led teams to the NBA finals as "the man" and had several deep playoff runs. I think McHale would have had a similar record and perhaps won a ring as "the man." People forget that Ewing literally was one shot away from a ring in 94', Dirk came close--imagine Dallas winning Game 3, and Drexler was on the verge of forcing a Game 7 until Pippen led the bench to a legendary fourth quarter comeback. Drexler also averaged a near triple double as a "sidekick" in 95'. All of these nuances are lost in the "did he or did he not win a ring as the man?" that. People look at it so simplistically that guys like Dominique Wilkins and King who never got out the second round or a player like T Mac is generally lumped in with a guy like Ewing who was one shot away or Payton who happened to have the worst possible timing to have his best team.

Pippen with Mutumbo? That would have been criminal defensively. :bowdown:


I agree about Kemp. He was a fave of mine all the way back to 1996. Grant simply wasn't at the same level. He's still one of my favorite Bulls players, though, especially after reading the Jordan Rules.

I liked Kemp as well. It is a shame he lost focus later in his career. He was on his way to the HOF. Seeing him as a scrub in Portland really was sad.

I like Grant too. I was just comparing him to the other "sidekicks" on the elite teams in 94'. He was similar to most of them. Kemp and Stockton were the only ones who were much better than him. Grant grew on me after reading that book and some other stuff too. He seems like an honest, hardworking guy. Supposedly he wasn't the brightest bulb out there--which made the alleged Reinsdorf situation even worse.


Yeah, that's true. I actually read a few people say Scottie was just a system player or something like that as a putdown, which I found odd considering the Triangle offense isn't easy. Like you said, Harper had trouble adjusting. Jason Kidd didn't adjust well to it, either from what I read in the Book of Basketball. Here's what Simmons had to say.

I saw one person saying it and we know what his agenda is...It is a difficult offense but regarding assists simple common sense shows you how it deflates assists. The more ball movement there is, the less likely it is that a primary playmaker will get an assist.

Simmons made a good point, although I believe Dallas ran a hybrid type of offense, not the full triangle. You have to look at offensive schemes people are in. That is why I mentioned Pippen winning wherever he went. He almost won a ring under the Dunleavy system. Not bad for a "system player"! Also look at what Pippen did on the Dream Team. He played a lot of PG on that up tempo team and led the team in assists.

[Alhazred]

It is an interesting question I have not given much thought. It is a good topic for a thread, though. I haven't look at "before/after" records of teams after great coaches leaving. My guess is that even the ones who can turn teams around take time. Look at Larry Brown. Time after time he joins a team and makes it a contender but has he ever really went to a team and improved it 15-20 wins right off the bat?

I don't know about records improving overnight. 35 wins may have been overstating it. 30 wins is a more realistic scenario.


Yeah, I just tried to name random teams. I think McHale was comparable in ability to someone like Dirk, Drexler, Ewing or Payton. All four led teams to the NBA finals as "the man" and had several deep playoff runs. I think McHale would have had a similar record and perhaps won a ring as "the man." People forget that Ewing literally was one shot away from a ring in 94', Dirk came close--imagine Dallas winning Game 3, and Drexler was on the verge of forcing a Game 7 until Pippen led the bench to a legendary fourth quarter comeback. Drexler also averaged a near triple double as a "sidekick" in 95'. All of these nuances are lost in the "did he or did he not win a ring as the man?" that. People look at it so simplistically that guys like Dominique Wilkins and King who never got out the second round or a player like T Mac is generally lumped in with a guy like Ewing who was one shot away or Payton who happened to have the worst possible timing to have his best team.

The "sidekick" label and "rings as the man" thing doesn't really make much sense, imo.

Ewing and a lot of other players have taken crap for supposedly "choking" in the playoffs, which is unfair. His detractors rarely mention his game 7 performance in the 94 ECF when he went 22/24/7/5.



I liked Kemp as well. It is a shame he lost focus later in his career. He was on his way to the HOF. Seeing him as a scrub in Portland really was sad.

Yeah, I wish Seattle had just given him a bigger contract earlier, especially after he had that awesome performance in the Finals. His career probably would have been better had he stuck with Karl and GP.


I like Grant too. I was just comparing him to the other "sidekicks" on the elite teams in 94'. He was similar to most of them. Kemp and Stockton were the only ones who were much better than him. Grant grew on me after reading that book and some other stuff too. He seems like an honest, hardworking guy. Supposedly he wasn't the brightest bulb out there--which made the alleged Reinsdorf situation even worse.

I never mistook Grant for an intellectual. Still, I take his side regarding the whole situation. Bulls management was notoriously stingy back in the 90s. Wasn't Scottie at one point the 122nd highest paid player in the league? :wtf: That was in his prime, too.


I saw one person saying it and we know what his agenda is...It is a difficult offense but regarding assists simple common sense shows you how it deflates assists. The more ball movement there is, the less likely it is that a primary playmaker will get an assist.

Simmons made a good point, although I believe Dallas ran a hybrid type of offense, not the full triangle.

Apparently, Cleamons was a former assistant of Phil Jackson's. He was only there for a season with Kidd, though and it seems like they were just experimenting with it.


You have to look at offensive schemes people are in. That is why I mentioned Pippen winning wherever he went. He almost won a ring under the Dunleavy system. Not bad for a "system player"! Also look at what Pippen did on the Dream Team. He played a lot of PG on that up tempo team and led the team in assists.

Scottie could fit in with multiple different systems, no doubt.

Thanks for mentioning the 1992 Dream Team. He and Michael both led the team in assists and steals, even with Magic and Stockton. :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers:

[Round Mound]

:applause:

[BigShotBob]

Great second option. Can't do much more though outside of that unfortunately.

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause:

:cheers:

[3ball]

.
Sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade.....' 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48


Pippen also shot 45.9% true shooting in the Finals - so he was horrible in the 93' Playoffs (worse than 14' Wade)

Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs with regular 2nd option numbers, because he sucked in 1993 and every other year (94', 95, 96-98', 88-90') - a horrible playoff performer and worst clutch player ever

[Rico2016]

It was the greatest consecutive three-year stretch for a number two option in NBA history. You won't find a better one. Pip averaged something crazy like 21/9/8/2/1 on 46% and obviously top-level defense.

[Rico2016]

.
Sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade.....' 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48


Pippen also shot 45.9% true shooting in the Finals - so he was horrible in the 93' Playoffs (worse than 14' Wade)

Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs with regular 2nd option numbers, because he sucked in 1993 and every other year (94', 95, 96-98', 88-90') - a horrible playoff performer and worst clutch player ever

Per 100 :lol

Comparing one single year and using per 100 as your only shred of an argument. Embarrassing. Whatever happened to what they actually did for that year? You know, per game?

[Roundball_Rock]

It was the greatest consecutive three-year stretch for a number two option in NBA history. You won't find a better one. Pip averaged something crazy like 21/9/8/2/1 on 46% and obviously top-level defense.

His playoff record was so strong I had to divide it into two threads, with multiple posts in each (the character limit was a lot longer back then too). :bowdown:

[Lebron23]

Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:

Espn ranked him at 21.

[aceman]

Great second option. Can't do much more though outside of that unfortunately.

Goat perimeter defender, point guard. 2nd option was just one of roles

[aceman]

Good point. You could even argue that the 99' Bulls were better than the 95' Bulls without Pippen or Jordan. Kukoc would be the best player on either team and in 99' he was at his peak, not a second year player new to American basketball. BJ Armstrong>99' Harper but the rest of the team is similar. If anything the 99' team was slightly better. Brent Barry>whoever you count as the 95' Bulls' third best player in this scenario (Will Perdue? Kerr? ), It doesn't even matter beyond this. It is scrubs vs. scrubs after this.

Keep in mind in 95' Pippen became the second player in history to lead his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, blocks, and steals. He led them in minutes too I believe. He ran their offense, anchored their defense. If his team was so good why was he asked to do so much?



He is in the conversation for top 5 PF of all-time. You mentioned 87'. He was 4th in MVP voting that year. Legit "sidekicks" do not finish that high in MVP voting or make all-NBA first team. The sad thing is being a "sidekick" will hurt him when he is, say, compared to Dirk. They are comparable in terms of talent but one was "the man" on his team for years and losing as "the man">winning as a "sidekick" according to a lot of people.



The 95' Bulls would have been good if they had a rebounding/defensive PF like Grant or Rodman. What do you expect from a team whose starting "power" forward is averaging 5 boards and was not exactly a tough defender? Kukoc was a very good scorer and playmaker but having him as a PF is a joke. All he had was the height of a PF. He lacked the mentality or strength needed to be a viable PF. Who did the Bulls have at center? Will Perdue and Luc Longley.

It is a shame the Bulls used their free agent $$$$ on what turned out to be a washed up Ron Harper and not a PF that year. They could survive with a scrub at SG; they could not survive zero rebounding and Kukoc and Perdue as their "intimidators" in the paint.



Harper was not as good as O'Neal imo. That was washed up, defensive specialist Harper not prime 20 ppg Harper.



I factored all that in. Cassell played 60 games, Sprewell was old and Wally was good for a years. Even with Cassell's injury, Sprewell being old I would still take Cassell/Sprewell/Wally over second year Kukoc/Armstrong/old, post-injury Harper.



So we both agree they were comparably bad "casts." So why is one guy criticized for producing the same results and the other lionized? :confusedshrug:

1995 team got better with return of Longley. Younger Harper with BJ, Kerr & Kukoc. Still not a playoff team, but not 1999.

[GimmeThat]

makes me wonder what his GPA were, since it wasn't the one and done system back then.

[Roundball_Rock]

1995 team got better with return of Longley. Younger Harper with BJ, Kerr & Kukoc. Still not a playoff team, but not 1999.

They were still safely a playoff team. They were in 6th place, right behind the Cavs. There is a myth they were at risk of missing the playoffs that gets pushed so often people start to believe it. The 8th place team in 95' (Celtics) won 35 games so the Bulls had basically done that (34) by when MJ returned.

Right, they got better with Longley and their record did not reflect their SRS. Over time, SRS is the best predictor of win losses and it appeared their SRS was starting to show up in their results before MJ came back (11-6 since the break, 8-2 right before MJ returned). Here is what SRS said the 1995 standings should have been before MJ returned:

1995 East Standings Predicated by SRS

1) Magic 48-17
2) Bulls 42-23
3) Pacers 39-24
4) Hornets 39-35
5) Knicks 37-25
6) Cavs/Hawks 35-28
8) Heat 28-36

Pippen also missed two full games (0-2) and he basically missed a third when he was ejected in the second quarter against the Clippers (the worst team in the NBA that year). If you project their win pace out with him, they would be 36-31 heading to Indiana, compared to the Pacers 39-24. In other words, if Pippen played every game they would be right in the hunt to win the division. This is compared to a full strength Pacers team whereas the Bulls were down MJ, Grant, Rodman, plus injuries to Longley as you noted.



makes me wonder what his GPA were, since it wasn't the one and done system back then.

I assume solid because he was getting a work-study type scholarship and that comes with a minimum requirement (isn't it usually 2.5 or 2.75?). He wasn't a star until late in college when he had his growth spurt so he wouldn't get any "special treatment" like you here about with some players who went to college as big stars.

[Round Mound]

Best All Around Forward of the 90's!

[Shooter]

It was the greatest consecutive three-year stretch for a number two option in NBA history. You won't find a better one. Pip averaged something crazy like 21/9/8/2/1 on 46% and obviously top-level defense.

Bingo

Riiiiico got these bois spinnin

:dancin

[aceman]

They were still safely a playoff team. They were in 6th place, right behind the Cavs. There is a myth they were at risk of missing the playoffs that gets pushed so often people start to believe it. The 8th place team in 95' (Celtics) won 35 games so the Bulls had basically done that (34) by when MJ returned.

Right, they got better with Longley and their record did not reflect their SRS. Over time, SRS is the best predictor of win losses and it appeared their SRS was starting to show up in their results before MJ came back (11-6 since the break, 8-2 right before MJ returned). Here is what SRS said the 1995 standings should have been before MJ returned:

1995 East Standings Predicated by SRS

1) Magic 48-17
2) Bulls 42-23
3) Pacers 39-24
4) Hornets 39-35
5) Knicks 37-25
6) Cavs/Hawks 35-28
8) Heat 28-36

Pippen also missed two full games (0-2) and he basically missed a third when he was ejected in the second quarter against the Clippers (the worst team in the NBA that year). If you project their win pace out with him, they would be 36-31 heading to Indiana, compared to the Pacers 39-24. In other words, if Pippen played every game they would be right in the hunt to win the division. This is compared to a full strength Pacers team whereas the Bulls were down MJ, Grant, Rodman, plus injuries to Longley as you noted.




I assume solid because he was getting a work-study type scholarship and that comes with a minimum requirement (isn't it usually 2.5 or 2.75?). He wasn't a star until late in college when he had his growth spurt so he wouldn't get any "special treatment" like you here about with some players who went to college as big stars.

Without Pippen in 95 not a playoff team

[Carbine]

I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.

It didn't happen. He's not much of a historian claiming things like that.

[aceman]

I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.

It didn't happen. He's not much of a historian claiming things like that.

Stuff like questioning Chris Mullins place on dream team in revisionist - Pippen's defence was reported at time;
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/06/sports/basketball-pippen-performs-magic-on-defense.html

[Roundball_Rock]

Without Pippen in 95 not a playoff team

Oh sorry, misread your post. Yeah, without Pippen for sure. The 94' team wasn't a PO team without him either. Pippen missed 12 full games during the MJ retirement era and a de facto 13th where he was ejected early. The Bulls went 4-9 in those games (25 win pace).


I like Bill Simmons, but that part about Pippen shutting Magic down in the 91 finals is just flat out without debate untrue and revisionist history.

You don't "shut down" a player of Magic's caliber but Game 2 was his worst game.

Phil Jackson said Pippen's defense on Magic turned the tide of the series and Grant said he should have been FMVP, citing that as a reason.


Stuff like questioning Chris Mullins place on dream team in revisionist - Pippen's defence was reported at time;
https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/06/s...n-defense.html

From that article (the title? Pippen Performs Magic on Defense):


Pippen Performs Magic on Defense


Johnson Under Wraps

Pippen shot better tonight (8 for 16) and scored 20 points. More important, he limited Magic Johnson to 4-for-13 shooting from the field and 14 points over all.

Pippen, who was matched against James Worthy at the start of the game, switched to Johnson with 4 minutes 5 seconds remaining in the first quarter after Jordan had picked up his second foul.

"Pippen did a great job on me," Johnson said. "Once Michael got into early foul trouble, you had to expect they would make that switch.

"They were trying wear me out or take the ball out of my hands, take your pick. Scottie is more physical than Michael so the matchup was a little different."

Full-Court Pressure

Pippen said, "I was trying to defend Magic full court so he could not pick apart of our offense.

Look at Magic's game logs for the series.

Game 1: 19/10/11 80%
Game 2: 14/7/10 31%
Game 3: 22/6/10 47%
Game 4: 22/6/11 46%
Game 5: 16/11/20 33%

One of these is not like the others. 14/7/10 isn't being shut down but you can see the stark difference with his normal level in the logs.

[Carbine]

I watched the games, he didn't shut him down. Throwing box scores at me means nothing, it's no different than 3ball saying Jordan shut Magic down in the OT when Magic is out there shooting wide open uncontested 3 pointers and just missing them, with MJ nowhere in sight.

[Hey Yo]

Strange how NBA.com paints the picture as if Scottie was the primary defender on Magic for the majority of the series.


In the Chicago’s first-ever NBA Finals appearance, Scottie Pippen took the primary responsibility of guarding Magic Johnson in 1991 versus the Los Angeles Lakers. Pippen’s stellar defensive effort altered the scope of the series and set the standard for teams searching for a taller, more athletic point guard to shut down opposing point guards.

At first, all anyone could talk about was the Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson match-up. But as the series carried on, it was clear that it was going to take much more than one individual for either team to succeed. Jordan was superb, averaging 31.2 points, 11.4 assists and 6.6 rebounds, but the Bulls were no one-man team. Their defense held the Lakers to a record-low 458 points for a five-game series.

At first, Head Coach Phil Jackson designated Jordan to guard Johnson, with relief help from Pippen.

"It's tough to guard Magic and then go down and be expected to carry the load offensively," Jordan said following the series opener. "It's a challenge, but I have to do it."

However, things changed in Game 2 when the Bulls discovered a new defensive stopper. Pippen switched over onto Johnson after Jordan picked up his second personal foul in the first quarter and did an outstanding job on the Lakers' star, pestering him into 4-for-13 shooting.

“I didn’t know what to expect to be honest,” Pippen said of the assignment.

The Lakers were outmanned by the younger, more athletic Bulls. Wherever Johnson went, he was hounded by the fourth-year Pippen, who combined to pressure his every step and harassed him into 22 turnovers.

"We were all hyped and full of energy because it was our first time [in the Finals] and we were excited,” Pippen recalled.

“I decided I was going to try to work him and wear him down as best as I could. That was my plan, and whether it affected him initially, I didn’t know if it would or not. I just focused on wearing him down for the long haul—not just that game but throughout the whole series.”

The Bulls dropped the opening game in Chicago, but wouldn’t lose again, taking the series, 4-1. Pippen led all scorers in the decisive fifth game with 32 points and 13 boards and averaged 21.6 points, 8.9 rebounds, 5.8 assists, and 2.47 steals in 17 postseason games.


https://www.nba.com/bulls/history/pippen10_1991.html

[Roundball_Rock]

Historians place a lot of weight on what was said at the time, both in coverage and by participants. For the press, the first stop is the New York Times as the nation's "paper of record." If the NYT headline on the next day's story is Pippen's defense, you have quotes from various participants in the game, other press accounts, etc. there is only one conclusion for a historian to reach. He isn't going to get held up on a technicality over the definition of "shut down", especially since we know superstars like that are never really shut down.

The counter argument has to explain how people 1) at the time 2) in the lore that developed over the following 30 years were both incorrect. The NYT reporter watched the game too--that was his job. Did all these people just get it backwards?


Throwing box scores at me means nothing, it's no different than 3ball saying Jordan shut Magic down in the OT

That is one guy with an agenda 30 years later. That isn't the same as the NBA reporter for the nation's "paper of record" saying it in his story on the game.


Strange how NBA.com paints the picture as if Scottie was the primary defender on Magic for the majority of the series.


That article was written sloppily and therefore conveys that impression. He wasn't and I don't think that's what the writer actually meant. Maybe a short deadline? :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Here is more reporting from the time. So people who watched the game live, wrote a story right after the game for the next day's paper. There is this push against this from the MJ crowd "Pippen guarding Magic" (not you but I see it out there)--but that started 20+ years after the fact with a clear agenda. This is what (now four) people said when they wrote their thoughts minutes after the game ended without any agenda other than telling readers what happened.

The Washington Post (David Aldridge)


Scottie Pippen had 20 points, but it was his defensive job on Magic Johnson that was his bigger contribution tonight. With Pippen instead of Jordan on Johnson, the Lakers' leader shot four for 13.

Chicago actually did it out of necessity. Jordan picked up his second foul guarding Johnson with 4:05 left in the first period, and Pippen, who had made one of six shots till then, had to switch off to Johnson while Jordan took Byron Scott.

The 6-foot-8 Pippen could obstruct Johnson's passing lanes, which the 6-6 Jordan couldn't do. And Pippen, a few pounds heavier than Jordan, could put a little more muscle on Johnson and turn him back and forth down the floor.

"Basically, I was trying to defend against Magic full-court," Pippen said, "so he couldn't pick apart our defense. . . . I had success on Magic tonight but so did Michael."

"He's much more physical than Michael," Johnson said. "So the matchup's different. I thought all along that they were going to play Scottie on me. But I think they were forced into it."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1991/06/06/game-2-bulls-surge-107-86/11781a94-f3e9-4ca2-84aa-d94671a10751/

UPI

Headline: Pippen's defense shadows Magic, Lakers


INGLEWOOD, Calif. -- Contrary to some reports, when Magic Johnson removed his jersey after Game 2 of the NBA Finals, he did not find Scottie Pippen underneath.

Pippen, though, did blanket Johnson during the Chicago Bulls' 107-86 rout of the Lakers Wednesday night. And he'd like to remain up close and personal with the Los Angeles star when the best-of-seven series, tied at one game apiece, resumes Friday night at the Forum.

Early in Game 2, Chicago Coach Phil Jackson took Michael Jordan off Johnson and replaced him with Pippen. The long-armed 6-foot-7 forward hounded the Lakers' playmaker from baseline to baseline, and Johnson finished with just 14 points on 4 of 13 shooting.

'I wanted to guard Magic,' Pippen said. 'I knew it might take something out of my offense, but I had to try. I got out there and felt very good about guarding him.'

Johnson, forced to work each time he brought the ball upcourt, played 43 minutes and looked weary. In his last eight games, he has played fewer than 43 minutes just once.

'When somebody's aggressive like that, guarding you, you know you're going to get tired,' Johnson said.

Added Los Angeles assistant Randy Pfund: 'That's where (the rout) started. Scottie picked up the pace and that engerized them. He picked up the whole team.'


https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/06/06/Pippens-defense-shadows-Magic-Lakers/8129676180800/

[Roundball_Rock]

Orlando Sun-Sentinel

Headline: BULLS MAKE MAGIC A VULNERABLE TARGET



INGLEWOOD, Calif. -- Suddenly, this is turning into work for Lakers guard Magic Johnson.

No more idle time on the defensive end.

No more wearing down Michael Jordan on the other end.

As the Lakers and Bulls head into Game 3 of the NBA Finals tonight at the Great Western Forum tied 1-1, the focus has shifted from Jordan's one-man show to Johnson's one-man nightmare.


And when Johnson tried to even the score in Game 2, he found Chicago forward Scottie Pippen hawking him fullcourt, while Jordan conserved his energy.

"I thought, all along, that at some point they were going to play Scottie on me," Johnson said. "They're trying to wear me out or take the ball out of my hands. Take your pick."

The Pippen-on-Johnson matchup was created by necessity more than design after Jordan picked up two early fouls. But it worked so well that Chicago coach Phil Jackson stayed with it even after Jordan avoided further foul trouble.

"I felt more confident guarding Magic and leaving the scoring to Michael," Pippen said. "Basically, I was trying to defend against Magic fullcourt, so he couldn't pick apart our defense."

After closing with a triple-double in Game 1, Johnson still finished with 14 points, 10 assists and seven rebounds in Game 2. But he also shot 4 of 13 after going 4 of 5 in the series opener.

"Scottie's more physical than Michael," Johnson said.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/fl-xpm-1991-06-07-9103020619-story.html

[Carbine]

I'm not concerned with what people say, I make my own opinions on the things I see. The game is somewhat fresh in my mind.

Using Magics stat line against him to prop up Pippen is dumb, because things like this happen.

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=1075

He made it more difficult for Magic to bring the ball up, that's about it. It didn't cause any turnovers from what I remember.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=2255

That's great effort by Pippen and it looks good, but the end result is Magic basically creating 2 FT attempts. Magic gets no stats for this play, but when you watch the game you make mental notes of these particular plays. So many other examples in the game. Magic had no issue with Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

Why do you think the impression of the people who covered and participated in the game (including Magic himself and a Lakers assistant coach) was so different--and so consistent? A conspiracy to prop up a young Pippen?

I suspect it is your bar for "shut down" is much higher than what those other people were looking at: the decline Magic experienced from his (extremely high) baseline performance level. Think of that baseline performance level: so high that even 3ball was crowing about a game where Magic racked up 20 assists against MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

If everyone who watched or participated in the game at the time came away with the same conclusion, it obviously has to be based on something.

[97 bulls]

If everyone who watched or participated in the game at the time came away with the same conclusion, it obviously has to be based on something.

Everyone came to that conclusion because it's TRUE.

We have to understand that impact on defense goes farrrrr past stats. Or I should say can go. Magic was visibly flustered. It got so bad that other guys (guys like Divac, Perkins, Teagle) found themselves bring the ball up and initiating the offense. Pippen literally took the ball out of Magics hands. That's great defense. Or, Pip harrassed Magic so much that the Lakers found themselves taking a shot (their first shot mind you) with under 10 seconds on the clock. Again GREAT DEFENSE.

Or, the Lakers had Magic shooting the ball after receiving a pass from a player that was under duress. Because Magic was denied the ball from Pippen.

Pippens impact in that game was on par with a player dropping 50.

[Round Mound]

And still no one has answered why Jordan himself said "I will only comeback if Pippen stays and plays along side me" :confusedshrug:

[Shooter]

And still no one has answered why Jordan himself said "I will only comeback if Pippen stays and plays along side me" :confusedshrug:

Dey know

:pimp:

[3ball]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48


^^^ Prime Pippen = 13' and 14' Wade...

So when people complain about Pippen, think about 13/14 Wade and you'll understand... 14' Wade had a higher production rate (above), and 13' Wade had prime Pippen stats in the Finals (20/5/5 on 48%)

In addition to his horrible 93' Playoffs, Pippen was also horrible in the 96-98' Playoffs and 88-90' Playoffs.. aka HIS ENTIRE CAREER... he was a horrible playoff performer even in 1994 and 99-03'





And still no one has answered why Jordan himself said "I will only comeback if Pippen stays and plays along side me" :confusedshrug:




^^^ it's because MJ didn't say that, or it wasn't a deal-breaker

The only deal-breaker was Phil - he was the only must-have because MJ didn't want to build a new system

But a tons of guys could've replaced Pippen, aka any good defender that can average 16/6/5 on terrible efficiency.. so about 20% of the league

[Round Mound]

.
Per 100 Possessions - Playoffs

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg.. 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg.. 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48


^^^ Prime Pippen = 13' and 14' Wade...

So when people complain about Pippen, think about 13/14 Wade and you'll understand... 14' Wade had a higher production rate (above), and 13' Wade had prime Pippen stats in the Finals (20/5/5 on 48%)




^^^ it's because MJ didn't say that, or it wasn't a deal-breaker

The only deal-breaker was Phil - he was the only must-have because MJ didn't want to build a new system

But a tons of guys could've replaced Pippen, aka any good defender that can average 16/6/5 on terrible efficiency.. so about 20% of the league

Btw, OP forgets that Pippen was horrible during the 93' Playoffs, including 45% true shooting in the Finals and a lower production rate for the playoffs than 14' Wade (stats above)..

In addition to the 93' Playoffs, Pippen was horrible in the 96-98' Playoffs (17 on 41%), 88-90' Playoffs, 94' Playoffs, and 99-03' Playoffs.. he was a horrible playoff performer

:facepalm

[3ball]

:facepalm

Other than 91' or 92', name a good playoff run for Pippen that's worthy of the top 30 ranking that he enjoys by many fans... remember, a top 30 performance is better than guys like Ewing and R Miller... Okay, go

[SouBeachTalents]

Other than 91' or 92', name a good playoff run for Pippen that's worthy of the top 30 ranking that he enjoys by many fans... remember, a top 30 performance is better than guys like Ewing and R Miller... Okay, go
Name a good playoff run Jordan had without Pippen

[3ball]

Name a good playoff run Jordan had without Pippen

1986

44/6/6


1987

36/7/6



Now should I bother post Pippen's without Mike or you give up

[SouBeachTalents]

1986

44/6/6


1987

36/7/6



Now should I bother post Pippen's without Mike or you give up
So two runs where he won 0 playoff games? That's the best you got?

[aceman]

1986

44/6/6


1987

36/7/6



Now should I bother post Pippen's without Mike or you give up

That usage doesn't help team - empty stats

[Roundball_Rock]

Everyone came to that conclusion because it's TRUE.

We have to understand that impact on defense goes farrrrr past stats. Or I should say can go. Magic was visibly flustered. It got so bad that other guys (guys like Divac, Perkins, Teagle) found themselves bring the ball up and initiating the offense. Pippen literally took the ball out of Magics hands. That's great defense. Or, Pip harrassed Magic so much that the Lakers found themselves taking a shot (their first shot mind you) with under 10 seconds on the clock. Again GREAT DEFENSE.

Or, the Lakers had Magic shooting the ball after receiving a pass from a player that was under duress. Because Magic was denied the ball from Pippen.

Pippens impact in that game was on par with a player dropping 50.

Agreed. The only other alternative is there was a conspiracy cooked up to hype Pippen after the game between the entire NBA press and every participant in the game--including Lakers.

Look at those reporters. Their job literally is to tell their readers what happened and what was important in the game. They concluded the story was Pippen's defense on Magic. Not only that, their editors had to agree with them. If their editors thought it was BS they would force them to change the story.


And still no one has answered why Jordan himself said "I will only comeback if Pippen stays and plays along side me" :confusedshrug:

True...:lol Not only that, when Pip left MJ, the reigning MVP and champ, kept his word and quit rather than play without Pippen.
/
3ball dishonestly has to inflate Wade 16% to bring 13' Wade to 98' Pippen--despite 98' being a much lower scoring time (remember, Utah made the chip with their 2nd/3rd options scoring 20-21 PPG--combined). When you combine Miami playing at a faster pace and Wade playing a lot less minutes, it nets out to 3ball giving Wade a fictional extra 16%. That is the difference between 3ball and the OP: when you have the truth on your side you don't need to do the type of stuff he shamelessly does.

Moreover, under 3ball's BS, 98' Kukoc>13' Wade. Similar line but Kukoc was much more efficient in a much tougher defensive and lower scoring era.

Kukoc 98' per 100 in the PO: 25/7/5 56% TS
Wade 13' per 100 in the PO: 25/7/7 50% TS

The Bulls' 4th best player outperformed 13' Wade--according to 3ball's own accounting. :oldlol:

[Carbine]

His defense was equal to a 50 pt game? Now I had to go back and watch this once again - how did I miss this? Turns out I didn't miss anything and my initial evaluation was spot on.

Here are the first half plays involving Pippen/Magic

- Magic dumps it down into a Worthy post iso. Jordan comes from nowhere to block what would have been an uncontested lay up.

- Pippens best defensive play. Hassles Magic all possession. Great defense.

- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.

- Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge

- Pippen helps way off Magic, he misses wide open 3

- Magic posts Pippen up. He shoots an uncontested hook shot, he misses. This right here is a good example of what I am seeing bring propped as good defense, even the announcer says it was good defense. Pippen went for a steal, Magic turned the opposite way and Pippen literally had nothing to do with the miss. You reach I teach, is what basically happened here but Magic missed the shot.

- Pippen presses, applies pressure but it doesn't phase Magic and he makes a dime for two FTs on a lay up foul.

- Magic blows by Pippen middle, Magic dumps off to Vlade for dunk

- MJ comes up and double teams Magic, forcing a bad TO at half court.

- Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results

- Magic posts up Pippen, wide open corner 3 again

- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.


This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far. Maybe the second half is where this 50 point defensive explosion comes from - but I doubt it.

[97 bulls]

His defense was equal to a 50 pt game? Now I had to go back and watch this once again - how did I miss this? Turns out I didn't miss anything and my initial evaluation was spot on.

Here are the first half plays involving Pippen/Magic

- Magic dumps it down into a Worthy post iso. Jordan comes from nowhere to block what would have been an uncontested lay up.

- Pippens best defensive play. Hassles Magic all possession. Great defense.

- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.

- Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge

- Pippen helps way off Magic, he misses wide open 3

- Magic posts Pippen up. He shoots an uncontested hook shot, he misses. This right here is a good example of what I am seeing bring propped as good defense, even the announcer says it was good defense. Pippen went for a steal, Magic turned the opposite way and Pippen literally had nothing to do with the miss. You reach I teach, is what basically happened here but Magic missed the shot.

- Pippen presses, applies pressure but it doesn't phase Magic and he makes a dime for two FTs on a lay up foul.

- Magic blows by Pippen middle, Magic dumps off to Vlade for dunk

- MJ comes up and double teams Magic, forcing a bad TO at half court.

- Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results

- Magic posts up Pippen, wide open corner 3 again

- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.


This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far. Maybe the second half is where this 50 point defensive explosion comes from - but I doubt it.

Again. It goes deeper than just Pippen on Magic. Even the two examples you gave. One shows Terry Teagle initiating the Lakers offense with Magic on the other side of the court. Think about that. How often was another player running the Lakers offense while Magic was on the floor?

The other example you used was a bad pass from Magic to Worthy and Worthy got bailed out with a foul called on Paxson.

I wish we could watch the game together.

[Carbine]

That was a great pass from Magic, I don't know what you're looking at. Where else do you want him to put it? It hit him right in the hands?

It doesn't matter to me who initiates the offense if what results is a wide open shot. Magic was a good shooter at this point in his career, having him end up with a wide open look for the possession is great.

[97 bulls]

That was a great pass from Magic, I don't know what you're looking at. Where else do you want him to put it? It hit him right in the hands?

It doesn't matter to me who initiates the offense if what results is a wide open shot. Magic was a good shooter at this point in his career, having him end up with a wide open look for the possession is great.

Bro. I'm rewatching this game right now. Right off the bat 3 if Magics 10 assists came with MJ on him. Another came off a TO fastbreak when Cartwright was stripped Magic got the ball and passed it to Scott.

[Roundball_Rock]

We still haven't gotten an explanation for why the whole world apparently got it wrong in real time, including Magic himself.


This ranks right up there with some of the most disgustingly false revisionist history I've seen so far.

It isn't revisionism if that is what was recorded in real time, thereafter, and continued for decades (with no dissents at the time from any participants or observers of the game). That's the recorded history--you can't revise what has been the consensus the entire time--there by definition is nothing to revise if you agree with the consensus.

Only in the 2010's have we gotten this push back online from MJ fans on Pippen's defense on Magic (curiously, I don't see any analysis of Magic roasting MJ in the same series in other games). You are unbiased but the broader currents are the entire "Pippen on Magic" push to revise comes from an agenda.

That is where real time observations carry weight. None of the people involved had an agenda. People 20-30 years later do. It is obvious the revisionism comes from a slant dedicated to diminishing Pippen's role. Real time? People simply watched the game, reported or commented on what they saw.


Right off the bat 3 if Magics 10 assists came with MJ on him.

MJ spent nearly the entire series getting roasted by Magic and he somehow draws no scrutiny for that defense but we have this big push on Pippen.

[Carbine]

What's that have to do with anything? I'm isolating the plays of two players, what he did against MJ is not of any value - although MJ couldn't do anything against Magic either. Magic had no trouble against him.

[97 bulls]

What's that have to do with anything? I'm isolating the plays of two players, what he did against MJ is not of any value - although MJ couldn't do anything against Magic either. Magic had no trouble against him.

Even then how do you not say Pippen did a great job on Magic if he was only 4-13? I dont see what your measuring stick is.

He shot bad, had 4 TOs, the Lakers offense was out of synch, they took the ball out of Magics hands. What more do you want? Or expect?

[Roundball_Rock]

He shot bad, had 4 TOs, the Lakers offense was out of synch, they took the ball out of Magics hands. What more do you want? Or expect?

7 points on 3 for 14, 3 assists, 4 rebounds it appears. That just isn't going to happen with a player of Magic's caliber. Pippen, Jordan are GOAT defenders and Magic still got numbers on them. That isn't the metric. It is compared to his norm...


"If I had a vote in that first championship for MVP it would have been Scottie. He brought his whole game and everyone could see. The way he played Magic and made him turn and turn and turn and made him work like that was the difference, especially after we lost the first game."

He was on the court--he is wrong like everyone else involving in or covering the game? http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2015/07/scottie-pippen-all-around-performer.html?m=1

[Carbine]

I'm giving you a play by play break down, not something that's an opinion but facts. I can't make it up, when he blows by Pippen into the middle of the lane for open looks. It's there for anyone to see.

Him posting up and creating wide open shots for his teammates is not opinion.

If the large majority of possessions in this matchup end result is his team getting wide open shots, the individual defense of Pippen isn't having any effect on him.

He blows by Pippen and Jordan takes a charge under the hoop, it's a TO for Magic but it's not good defense for Pippen. He gets a negative mark for letting the best playmaker of all time beat him into the middle in the lane.

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm watching it (at least the first half) today. Pippen has just come in and the difference is obvious: Pippen is harassing Magic, making Magic work to even bring the ball up (which throws off the timing of the offense by delaying when the offense can set up). When Jordan was on Magic, Magic was strolling up the court, other than when MJ attempted a steal. The crowd roars in appreciation of Pippen's defense. The result of the play? Magic got a layup attempt but it was hardly an easy shot. Pippen, Grant were there to contest and he missed.

Fratello is talking about this play at the beginning of the 2nd quarter--notes Pippen's tough defense resulted in a difficult shot (miss) by Magic.


- Posts Pippen up. Wide open shot result.

This makes it sound as if Magic had a walk in the park and got an open shot. Magic spun himself into the wall of Horace Grant after getting past Pippen who gambled for a steal (knowing Grant was behind them)--then threw it to an open man (not surprising since all 5 Chicago defenders were in the paint). This wasn't some great play by Magic. It is at 16:10 or so here. https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg


Blow by Pippen into the middle, MJ takes a charge

Yeah, shooting with 4 defenders draped around you isn't a great idea.

[97 bulls]

I'm giving you a play by play break down, not something that's an opinion but facts. I can't make it up, when he blows by Pippen into the middle of the lane for open looks. It's there for anyone to see.

Him posting up and creating wide open shots for his teammates is not opinion.

If the large majority of possessions in this matchup end result is his team getting wide open shots, the individual defense of Pippen isn't having any effect on him.

He blows by Pippen and Jordan takes a charge under the hoop, it's a TO for Magic but it's not good defense for Pippen. He gets a negative mark for letting the best playmaker of all time beat him into the middle in the lane.

Lol. All that blowing by Pippen netted him 4 FGs on 13 attempts and 4 TOs and only 7 assists. A fee of those

All jokes aside, Pippen funneled Magic into the teeth of the defense.

[Carbine]

I'm watching it (at least the first half) today. Pippen has just come in and the difference is obvious: Pippen is harassing Magic, making Magic work to even bring the ball up (which throws off the timing of the offense by delaying when the offense can set up). When Jordan was on Magic, Magic was strolling up the court, other than when MJ attempted a steal. The crowd roars in appreciation of Pippen's defense. The result of the play? Magic got a layup attempt but it was hardly an easy shot. Pippen, Grant were there to contest and he missed.



This makes it sound as if Magic had a walk in the park and got an open shot. Magic spun himself into the wall of Horace Grant after getting past Pippen who gambled for a steal (knowing Grant was behind them)--then threw it to an open man (not surprising since all 5 Chicago defenders were in the paint). This wasn't some great play by Magic. It is at 16:10 or so here. https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg



Yeah, shooting with 4 defenders draped around you isn't a great idea.


You don't have to link me the play - I know what play you're speaking of.

You and I see the game much differently. That play you're speaking of where he goes baseline and passes, that's beautiful to me. Getting a wide open shot as the end result is all you can ask for in the NBA, especially against this Chicago defense. Magic got two defenders to come at him, he found the open man - simple and beautiful offense.

[Carbine]

Lol. All that blowing by Pippen netted him 4 FGs on 13 attempts and 4 TOs and only 7 assists. A fee of those

All jokes aside, Pippen funneled Magic into the teeth of the defense.

You don't funnel Magic into the middle of your defense. This isn't a "strategy," IMO because it is illogical. Like I said to RoundBall, you and I clearly do not view basketball the same way - which is OK.

I'm extremely confident in what I believe.

[97 bulls]

You don't funnel Magic into the middle of your defense. This isn't a "strategy," IMO because it is illogical. Like I said to RoundBall, you and I clearly do not view basketball the same way - which is OK.

I'm extremely confident in what I believe.

Lol. Bro. Did Magic have a Magic type game?

[97 bulls]

I went back and checked all of Magics games during that playoff run. That was far and away his worst game.

I gotta say this again.

He shot bad, had 4 TOs, the Lakers offense was out of synch, they took the ball out of Magics hands. What more do you want? Or expect? Hell they even lost by 21pts. The were BLOWN OUT!!!!!. What metric are you using here Carbine? Funny thing is, alot of the shots the Lakers made came at the end of the shot clock. Desperation shots.

[Carbine]

I'm only speaking of the first half in detail but that mindset gives credit to Pippen for things he doesn't deserve credit for.

Magics charge was Magic making a bad play or decision. Usually he makes the right decision. If I'm playing and let my guy beat me middle clean and my teammates step in to take a charge - I'm not taking any credit for the play. It was a combination of the offensive player making a bad decision and my help defense being on point.

What if Magic makes the wide open 3? Makes the post up move against Pippen where it was an easy hook shot with no contest from Pippen because he got caught reaching? What if Magics teammates hit a couple more of the open shots he created for them? I believe out of all the open looks he created, he got credited with 2 assists.

Perkins missing a wide open corner 3 from a Magic creation is what it is - regardless of if Perkins makes it or not Magic gets the same grade from me.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=2724

Is this good defense by Pippen?

Pippen isn't the one making the shot contest. Horace was the impact player in this sequence for being super aware and sliding. He most likely got away with a blocking foul, though.

[97 bulls]

I'm only speaking of the first half in detail but that mindset gives credit to Pippen for things he doesn't deserve credit for.

Magics charge was Magic making a bad play or decision. Usually he makes the right decision. If I'm playing and let my guy beat me middle clean and my teammates step in to take a charge - I'm not taking any credit for the play. It was a combination of the offensive player making a bad decision and my help defense being on point.

What if Magic makes the wide open 3? Makes the post up move against Pippen where it was an easy hook shot with no contest from Pippen because he got caught reaching? What if Magics teammates hit a couple more of the open shots he created for them? I believe out of all the open looks he created, he got credited with 2 assists.

Perkins missing a wide open corner 3 from a Magic creation is what it is - regardless of if Perkins makes it or not Magic gets the same grade from me.

And what grade would that be?

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=2775

To me this is what I think of when the term hockey assist is thrown around. Magic draws the double, moves it and the team ends up with an easy hoop. No stats for Magic though, but he's the one creating the scrambling on defense by Chicago.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=2859

I applaud Pippens effort, but Magic beats him.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=2859

One of Magics turnoves. Pippen is on his ass, has no impact on this play whatsoever. The pass hit the guy in his hands, he dropped it.

So when you throw around his statline, as if this is because of Pippen..... then you actually watch what happens..... the facts (the film) don't support the narrative.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg?t=3165

Another one of Magics misses. Pippen getting credit for that is downright dishonest.

[Carbine]

https://youtu.be/8o8l6oM6Jeg

Magic blows by again......

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen gave Magic a ton of trouble bringing the ball up/setting up the offense. As 97 noted, it forced them to put the ball in other player's hands at times. When Magic made a move? He could get by Pippen (or MJ or anyone else). That isn't surprising. It is notable when he made those moves he ran right into a Bull or two (suggesting Pippen was driving him to bad areas of the court).

Magic had a lot of passes lead to open shots--but he was hitting players who were wide open (not even guarded in some cases--Grant alone had several lapses). Those are not "Magic Johnson" passes--those are passes NBA players can make. The Bulls did the same thing several times, especially to an open Paxson, on the other end of the floor.

Magic wasn't lasering passes into tight quarters or anything.


- Pippen helps way off Magic, he misses wide open 3

To help on a driving Scott--Magic had to hastily shoot it with 1 second on the shot clock.


- Magic posts Pippen up. He shoots an uncontested hook shot, he misses.

Pippen gambled again--knowing Grant was behind him. Grant rotated over, was in position to contest but didn't.


- Magic blows by Pippen middle, Magic dumps off to Vlade for dunk

This is around 34:00. Pippen harasses Magic, who tosses it to Divac. Pippen goes over to help on Divac on the post. Divac kicks it back to Magic, Pippen goes back to intercept Magic, Magic gets by as Pippen tries to recover. This isn't quite Magic taking Pippen off the dribble 1 on 1. It is amazing Pippen covered that much ground and almost got much to Magic in time.


- MJ comes up and double teams Magic, forcing a bad TO at half court.

Yeah--they trapped him at half court at 34:53. Pippen was all over him but the threat of a running MJ coming over caused the pass/TO.


Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results


I assume this at 37:05. Pippen is blanketing Magic so much Magic can't even take a step. :lol Magic passes to Worthy, Grant decides to give Worthy an open 3 with the shot clock winding down (again fails to contest). This is Pippen's fault? He did his job. The result is Worthy, a 29% three point shooter in the RS and 17% in the PO, taking a three with the clock ticking. I'll take that all day if I'm Phil Jackson.

The next possession Magic struggles to bring the ball up (around 37:30). Worthy streaks to the basket, Magic finds him, Worthy gets fouled. A good outcome for the Lakers but that isn't a pass that took an ATG to make.


Magic post up Pippen, wide open corner 3 results

39:28, Cartwright loses Perkins and no one picks him up (Jordan decided to stand around under the basket guarding no one for some reason). He is left wide open. Has little to do with Pippen. In theory, if he kept Magic from getting to the hoop maybe the shot doesn't happen--but unlikely. Eventually Magic was going to turn and see Perkins left wide open.

Then the next LA possession basically the same things happens again, except it is Grant on Magic. Cartwright decides to leave Perkins open, Perkins makes the Bulls pay again.

[Roundball_Rock]

- Pippen presses Magic, Magic blows right by him into the middle for a wide open kick out 3.

Not that easy. That is at 42:37, Magic gets past Pippen and runs into two Bulls--then passes to an open player. Magic legitimately gets by--but this is part of what you have to do with great players, force them into tough positions. Time and again Magic runs right into a defender(s) behind Pippen.

As to the open 3, once again the Bulls decide to leave a player wide open (Grant on Worthy).

Magic is finding wide open players who aren't being defended.

At 44:50, Pippen is hammered at half court, leading Magic to take (and miss) and open three.


45:23, Pippen harassing Magic again but Magic gets past--but runs right into Grant and takes and misses a bad shot (Magic thought he was fouled).

46:20, Pippen giving Magic trouble in the post, Cartwright comes over--Magic passes out to Cambpell who passes to a driving Perkins (who blows past MJ after losing Paxson).

46:50, Pippen cuts Magic's angle off near half court. Jordan comes over to trap, Magic forced to pass to Divac. Divac finds an open Worthy for 2. Grant lost him as he thought about leaving Worthy open in the post to rotate over to Divac (left open due to MJ trapping) for 3. Pippen did his job, Grant botched his. You can live with a Divac three, not an 8 footer from Worthy.

47:39, Pippen harassing Magic yet again. Magic careens into a Pippen/Jordan sandwich. MJ is in front of him, Magic blows by for a layup. Magic scores but had to work for it. Only his second field goal with 8 1/2 in the third.

51:36, Scott brings the ball up. Grant decides to leave Worthy wide open. Scott passes to Divac in the post who hits the open Worthy for 2. I mention this because Pippen/Magic aren't involved in this play at all yet Divac finds the open man like Magic did when Perkins/Worthy were left open earlier.

52:07, Bulls pulling away. Magic posts up Pippen, Grant decides to leave Worthy open again, Magic passes it to Worthy for 2.

52:26, Magic running but Pippen knocks the ball away to disrupt the transition opportunity.

52:50, Magic gets past MJ, misses a layup.

53:00, Pippen picks Magic up full court, Magic gives up the ball.

53:35, Magic misses a lay up contested by Pippen.

54:14, Pippen giving Magic trouble bringing the ball up yet again. Passes to Worthy, Worthy loses the ball.

55:00, Magic gets past Pippen (and Levingston), MJ fouls him.

56:58, Divac brings the ball up initially (then Scott).

1:01:00, Magic dunks but you only see the end of the play since NBC had a graphic up.

1:01:50, Pippen gives Magic the usual trouble bringing the ball up. Magic gets by--runs into two defenders and gets a charge.

1:06:40, Pippen fouls Magic for FT's.

1:07:37, Pippen stays in front of Magic, Grant comes over. Green, who wasn't covered, shoots and misses an open 3. An open look but hardly Pippen's fault--no one is covering Green.

1:10:20, discussion of the pressure Magic is under. Fratello says they may have to play Scott at PG for the next game to take the pressure off.

1:11:02, Divac pushes MJ away and gets open for a layup, Magic finds him.

1:20:30, Pippen hounds Magic, Magic gets by and runs into Williams but tips his miss.

[3ball]

Pippen only guarded Magic for 6 of 20 quarters (less than 30% of possessions)

Jordan guarded Magic most of the series - 14 of 20 quarters plus OT

So MJ had twice the defensive impact on Magic because he guarded Magic twice as much as Pippen

And forwards normally guard Magic, so MJ did Pippen's job for him by guarding Magic most of the time

[Roundball_Rock]

Take your 1-9 agenda to another thread.

[3ball]

Take your 1-9 agenda to another thread.

Pippen only guarded Magic for 6 of 20 quarters (less than 30% of possessions)

Jordan guarded Magic most of the series - 14 of 20 quarters plus OT

^^^ do you dispute this?

[3ball]

So two runs where he won 0 playoff games? That's the best you got?

That's a lot better than Pippen's performance without Mike

[3ball]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


Pippen's stats are on a similar level to most prominent sidekicks, yet MJ was the only 1st option that won 6 rings and 3-peated - Magic actually received more production from Kareem or Worthy, yet he only won 5.. Bird also got more from McHale and Parish or DJ, yet Bird only has 3.

And on down the line..

Everyone got at least 16 ppg with terrible efficiency from their sidekick, yet only MJ three-peated twice.. Yikes.. only mj could get ANYWHERE NEAR six rings with pippen and no third option..

tbh, only the very top guys at their PEAK could win with just Pippen and no 3rd option.. aka 71' Kareem or 00' Shaq (the only other times where the scoring champ won title).. and maybe a small handful of other top seasons - that's the only level that wins with Pippen.

[Round Mound]

.
THREAD CLIFFS


Pippen's stats are on a similar level to most prominent sidekicks, yet MJ was the only 1st option that won 6 rings and 3-peated - Magic actually received more production from Kareem or Worthy, yet he only won 5.. Bird also got more from McHale and Parish or DJ, yet Bird only has 3.

And on down the line..

Everyone got at least 16 ppg with terrible efficiency from their sidekick, yet only MJ three-peated twice.. Yikes.. only mj could get ANYWHERE NEAR six rings with pippen and no third option..

tbh, only the very top guys at their PEAK could win with just Pippen and no 3rd option.. aka 71' Kareem or 00' Shaq (the only other times where the scoring champ won title).. and maybe a small handful of other top seasons - that's the only level that wins with Pippen.

So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:

[3ball]

So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:

Horace is comparable to all-defender Varejao in 2010, or Mosgov who changed the Cavs' fortunes in 2015.. or Zydrunas averaged 2.5 blocks and Bosh is one of the pioneers of elite PNR defense..

So don't give me "b-b-but horace".. Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior...

Ultimately, horace was a 1-time all-star and Bosh was an 11-time all-star. while Love was a 1-time best PF in the game... Even Zydrunas and Jamison were 2-time all-stars while playing with lebron or 1 year removed.

Again, Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior... Heck, birdman compared defensively, and prime Haslem compared as well..

Lebron played with WAY better players than MJ, and much more OF them (7 all-stars to 1 for MJ)

[Round Mound]

Horace is comparable to all-defender Varejao in 2010, or Mosgov who changed the Cavs' fortunes in 2015.. or Zydrunas averaged 2.5 blocks and Bosh is one of the pioneers of elite PNR defense..

So don't give me "b-b-but horace".. Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior...

Ultimately, horace was a 1-time all-star and Bosh was an 11-time all-star. while Love was a 1-time best PF in the game... Even Zydrunas and Jamison were 2-time all-stars while playing with lebron or 1 year removed.

Again, Lebron had tons of guys that were vastly superior... Heck, birdman compared defensively, and prime Haslem compared as well..

Lebron played with WAY better players than MJ, and much more OF them (7 all-stars to 1 for MJ)

I wasn´t talking abou Lebron at all :confusedshrug:...i was just saying that Horace was a very good 3rd option. Which he was...:rolleyes:

[3ball]

I wasn´t talking abou Lebron at all :confusedshrug:...i was just saying that Horace was a very good 3rd option. Which he was...:rolleyes:

No, Larry Nance was a good 3rd option because the definition of "option" is that they can be relied upon to make a play offensively - so bangers/play-finishers like Grant don't qualify..

Schrempf was a great 3rd option - everything Kukoc was supposed to be, and he outplayed Pippen in the Finals despite being 3rd option

Dumas was 4th option but he was like a new age Pippen with better efficiency - aka 16 on 57% in the Finals - eerily similar to Kawhi's scoring in 14', aka torching Pippen in a Siakam-like, breakout performance in Game 5.

Divac and Perkins destroyed Horace in the 91' Finals - were both sophisticated, do-it-all bigs that averaged 18/9, while Horace's predictable play-finishing spots dried up.

Hornacek is underrated as a 3rd guy and Majerle was ahead of his time..

All these guys had something dynamic offensively that the defense had to be wary of OTHER than 2-point dunker-role type stuff

And maybe that's the problem with how you're looking at it.. aka through today's beginner format lense, where ALL the bigmen play like Horace ("dunker role", overly-spaced, beginner crap)... But back then, he was a replaceable robot because the good bigs could affect the game by creating for themselves.

[Round Mound]

No, Larry Nance was a good 3rd option because the definition of "option" is that they can be relied upon to make a play offensively - so bangers/play-finishers like Grant don't qualify..

Schrempf was a great 3rd option - everything Kukoc was supposed to be, and he outplayed Pippen in the Finals despite being 3rd option

Dumas was 4th option but he was like a new age Pippen with better efficiency - aka 16 on 57% in the Finals - eerily similar to Kawhi's scoring in 14', aka torching Pippen in a Siakam-like, breakout performance in Game 5.

Divac and Perkins destroyed Horace in the 91' Finals - were both sophisticated, do-it-all bigs that averaged 18/9, while Horace's predictable play-finishing spots dried up.

Hornacek is underrated as a 3rd guy and Majerle was ahead of his time..

All these guys had something dynamic offensively that the defense had to be wary of OTHER than 2-point dunker-role type stuff

And maybe that's the problem with how you're looking at it.. aka through today's beginner format lense, where ALL the bigmen play like Horace ("dunker role", overly-spaced, beginner crap)... But back then, he was a replaceable robot because the good bigs could affect the game by creating for themselves.

Offense is no the whole game what Pippen and Grant brought to the BULLS WAS TOP LEVEL ALL NBA TYPE DEFENSE (and versatility in Point-Forward Pippen).

To measure the level of a 2nd and 3rd option is to see them play without their 1st option, so here we go:

- 2nd Option Pippen: What happened after 1st option MJ left? 55 Wins (two wins less than with 1st option) and a Call Away From Getting to the Confrence Finals. Pippen was GREAT and Grant was "Very Good"

- 3rd Option Grant Leaves to the Magic. 2nd Option Pippen and 1st Option MJ loose to young Shaq, Penny and yes a "Very Good" 3rd option in Grant.

:confusedshrug:

[Roundball_Rock]

So Horace Grant wasn't a good 3rd option? :confusedshrug: He was Top 5 Defensive PF in the 90s and a 15-10 guy and All Star when Jordan wasn't around. He then left to the 94-95 Magic and got passed MJ and Pippen and played great that series. He was a great 3rd option! :no:

It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a second option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol

20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp

If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.

[Round Mound]

It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a second option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol

20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp

If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.

:lol

[TheCorporation]

It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a second option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol

20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp

If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.

MJ fans by year

1993: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
1994: They still had Pippen and Kukoc, both were so good they should have won 65 games and a chip!!!11!!1!!!!
1996: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums

:lol

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ fans by year

1993: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums
1994: They still had Pippen and Kukoc, both were so good they should have won 65 games and a chip!!!11!!1!!!!
1996: Team was shit without MJ he carried those bums

:lol

:roll: perfect! Especially the part of erasing 1995 altogether! :lol

[NBAGOAT]

It is funny, whenever the 94' season comes up MJ stans will sing songs about how great a second option Grant was. So Grant was a great second option, but sucked as a third option. #Agendas :lol

20 pages of MJ stans saying how great a "supporting cast" the Bulls had in 94' and how they "should" have won the chip without MJ. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481147-1994-Pippen-should-have-been-mvp

If the "cast" is awesome when it is Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc then surely it is awesome when it is Pippen/Grant/Armstrong since Pippen/Grant/Armstrong>>>Grant/Armstrong/Kukoc.

that thread had a lot of bad back and forths haha. Some from you included tbf. I like taylor a lot but you cant just cite his opinions as an end all be all. I still take ewing in 94 but 90s ewing does get a bit overrated however i think(he's a lot closer to pippen than hakeem or drob). I think ewings cast is better too. The RS wins are close but the knicks had an obvious edge in point differential.

It is some bad faith when people say the bulls cast in 94 is awesome and/or the bulls and knicks were evenly matched but at the same time downplay the cast in 93 and/or prop the 93 Knicks as one of the toughest challenges. It's definitely not consistent

[Roundball_Rock]

It is some bad faith when people say the bulls cast in 94 is awesome and/or the bulls and knicks were evenly matched but at the same time downplay the cast in 93 and/or prop the 93 Knicks as one of the toughest challenges. It's definitely not consistent

Exactly. The Knicks were the Bulls' top competitor in the 90's and they always say how great they were but then in 94' say the Bulls were so much better than the Knicks that the Bulls without MJ should have beaten them anyway.

The reality is the Bulls played the Knicks and Cavs in 92', 93', and 94'. Three years in a row. There was a decline but the Bulls didn't fall off a cliff in 94' like they present it as.

Bulls vs. Cavs 1992-1994: 4-2, 4-0, 3-0
Bulls vs. Knicks 1992-1994: 4-3, 4-2, 3-4

We know the last two were closer than the line suggests. Hue Hollins stole Game 5 from the Bulls in 94' and the Knicks almost won Game 5 in 93' (the "Charles Smith game") to take a 3-2 lead. A few bounces go differently and those series shift. The difference is the Bulls had a harder time obtaining those wins in 94' than in 93'.

Bulls' point differential vs. Knicks 1992-1994: +3.8, +4.7, +1.2
Bulls' point differential vs. Cavs 1992-1994: +1.8, +8.5, +6.6


I like taylor a lot but you cant just cite his opinions as an end all be all.

It is usually to back up my overall point. Anyone can make personal declarations. I like bringing stats, expert opinions, reporting, etc. to back up my points. Notice the other side never does that in that thread (they bring stats up occasionally--but only to diss Pippen, not do a real comparison)? You know why. What I do is no different than a newspaper reporter saying something and then quoting an expert or source to back the point up or a historian saying "experts thought X at the time" and then quoting a newspaper or someone relevant about it or a lawyer citing evidence to support his/her case. Etc. This tendency is just a product of my background.

[NBAGOAT]

It is usually to back up my overall point. Anyone can make personal declarations. I like bringing stats, expert opinions, reporting, etc. to back up my points. Notice the other side never does that in that thread (they bring stats up occasionally--but only to diss Pippen, not do a real comparison)? You know why. What I do is no different than a newspaper reporter saying something and then quoting an expert or source to back the point up or a historian saying "experts thought X at the time" and then quoting a newspaper or someone relevant about it or a lawyer citing evidence to support his/her case. Etc. This tendency is just a product of my background.

Alright that's really fair. you still argued better than soundwave. all he had at the end was offering up a couple series where pippen got outplayed. Making conclusions from one series will always have issues just because of sample size.

Okay ewing outplayed him in 94, that's not necessarily enough to give him an edge. Horace outplayed pippen in 95 but statistically also outplayed penny his own better teammate, it doesnt mean he was more important to the magic than penny(lol at him calling penny just a 2nd year player).

Hate to pull out whataboutism since it's a lazy argument but if tpols wants to put so much emphasis on ewing vs pippen h2h, then his boy curry is in some trouble when it comes to lebron haha. I like curry too but unlike him, i'm not putting a much stock into a series as a h2h matchup especially when the two guys arent guarding each other.

[Roundball_Rock]

Okay ewing outplayed him in 94, that's not necessarily enough to give him an edge. Horace outplayed pippen in 95 but statistically also outplayed penny his own better teammate

It also is a case where stats don't tell the story. Grant was literally left unguarded almost the entire series. Jackson's bet was Grant would choke under the pressure and he didn't want to leave shooters Anderson, Scott open when they doubled Shaq or Penny so Grant was the default choice in addition to Jackson thinking he wouldn't handle the pressure. The bet failed--Grant hit his shots but it wasn't a case where Grant was torching the defense.

Yeah, and if you use stats/game score Pippen outplayed Penny as well in 95' and 96' but you never see any of them ever say that about Pippen vs. Penny.

Ewing did have a better ECSF than Pippen in 94' but he also didn't face the same defense Pippen did. He scored on Cartwright/Longley while Pippen was facing a defense known to stifle perimeter stars.

It also ignores that Pippen outplayed Ewing in 91', 93'. It wasn't as if Ewing always got the better of Pippen. It is a recurring theme: they will never credit Pippen for having a better series than any other star.


Hate to pull out whataboutism since it's a lazy argument but if tpols wants to put so much emphasis on ewing vs pippen h2h, then his boy curry is in some trouble when it comes to lebron haha. I like curry too but unlike him, i'm not putting a much stock into a series as a h2h matchup especially when the two guys arent guarding each other.

:lol using that logic Irving>Curry, right?

He is a hypocrite. He makes it all about 7 games against the #1 defense but whenever Miller, Stockton, Kobe having bad series comes up his excuse is they faced elite defenses. :oldlol:

It also shows how high a standard Pippen is held to. Pippen was 22/8/5 on 41% while leading his team in scoring, rebounding (Grant averaged only 6 as Oakley crushed him on the glass), assists, steals while ranking second in blocks and anchoring the defense. That is a letdown. Yet many of the same people (especially tpols) will hype Miller for going 17/2/2 on 42% in the 98' ECF.

[NBAGOAT]

:lol using that logic Irving>Curry, right?

He is a hypocrite. He makes it all about 7 games against the #1 defense but whenever Miller, Stockton, Kobe having bad series comes up his excuse is they faced elite defenses. :oldlol:

It also shows how high a standard Pippen is held to. Pippen was 22/8/5 on 41% while leading his team in scoring, rebounding (Grant averaged only 6 as Oakley crushed him on the glass), assists, steals while ranking second in blocks and anchoring the defense. That is a letdown. Yet many of the same people (especially tpols) will hype Miller for going 17/2/2 on 42% in the 98' ECF.

yea some people hold pippen to a high standard for sure. I think you may be underrating miller though yes i'm not taking him over pippen all time or during the majority of seasons. I think taylor does overrate him a bit since he is so high on offball shooting and using screens to get open but very low on guys who handle all the time(besides lebron). Basically even if harden scored 35 and curry scored 25 next year good chance he has curry higher in the mvp race. still he has a solid point when it comes to offball scoring's value and it not even being in the box score.

When reggie comes off a screen and 2 defenders run at him and some big gets an open layup, he gets no assist credit though that play was mostly due to him. The impact numbers all grade out as strong offensively, better than his counterpart guards who got more awards. his cheap foul drawing is unlikable but elite almost harden level. a 40% ftr is absurd for someone who takes mostly spot ups, floaters, and pull ups and leads to elite efficiency; efficiency and foul rate carried over to the playoffs.

RS: 27.5pts/100 61.4ts% 40.4%ftr, PS: 30.5pts/100 60.1ts% 41.1%ftr

I'll add as an argument Larry Brown was notoriously bad as an offensive coach after like 1980. Some of his teams got significantly better offensively after he left like the pacers and pistons. Had some talent too like drob, iverson and the pistons big 4. He only coached two top ten offenses and that was the 95 and 96 pacers lead by miller on not particularly loaded teams. Even with his "low scoring" the pacers scared around 80ppg without him in 95. that seems like middle of the pack though i dont have the ppg in front of me so not elite production wise either.

Finally brown likely had a negative impact on miller's value because of how bad offensively he is. We saw how much better curry got after kerr replaced mark and even mj saw a clear improvement once phil replaced collins, that didnt all come from self improvement. The impact metrics bear it out according to Taylor. "In scaled adjusted plus-minus, his first seven seasons (1994-2000) are above the 75th percentile, with three seasons between the 93rd and 96th percentile." According to the graphs he posted his highest 3 seasons in apm were 98-00.

[Roundball_Rock]

My biggest issue with the PO talking point regarding Miller is his PO numbers are goosed by him being a 1st round monster (either as an underdog or overdog--94' was their only competitive 1st round series when they were the 5 seed). If Miller was the same player in the subsequent rounds I would come down on the side of a lot of the pro-Miller people but he wasn't. He went from something like 26 PPG in the 1st round to 22 in the ECSF and 21 in the ECF. (24 in the finals but only one series, not a legit sample there.)

If your calling card is scoring and in the biggest series you scoring is 21 PPG, that's a problem, no? Look at the Pippen threads. We see him dissed daily for scoring 19-20 PPG as a 2nd option. If 20 sucks as a 2nd, how can 21 be awesome for a 1st? "Efficiency"? That the 21 came on 14 shots and the 20 on 16 shots (some of the Pippen shots are end of quarter/end of shot clock bail outs...)? Really? Is that what it is all boiled down to? 21 on 14 versus 20 on 16? Those extra 2 Miller shots go to other (lesser) Indiana players. They don't disappear.


his cheap foul drawing is unlikable but elite almost harden level. a 40% ftr is absurd for someone who takes mostly spot ups, floaters, and pull ups and leads to elite efficiency; efficiency and foul rate carried over to the playoffs.

True, but we know how he did that: he kicked the defender and the defender would be called for a foul. :lol


RS: 27.5pts/100 61.4ts% 40.4%ftr, PS: 30.5pts/100 60.1ts% 41.1%ftr

Eh, no one actually plays 100 possessions so that doesn't tell me much. Smits' "per 100" number are better than Miller's. Smits' prime was shorter but let's compare their primes.

Smits 1994-1999: 32/13/3
Miller 1990-2000: 30/5/5
Miller 1990-1998: 31/5/5

If Miller is this offensive GOAT, why does he trail his teammate?


"In scaled adjusted plus-minus, his first seven seasons (1994-2000) are above the 75th percentile, with three seasons between the 93rd and 96th percentile." According to the graphs he posted his highest 3 seasons in apm were 98-00.

All good--but he doesn't compare to the type of players he gets compared to on ISH. Even Taylor concedes Miller did not have a top 50 all-time peak--he has Miller as high as he does because Miller maintained a good level for a long time.

[TheCorporation]

Good post. Top 25 and Goat defender.:cheers:

Top 20

:rockon:

[Roundball_Rock]

:cheers:

[Lebron23]

Pippen in the 1991-93 nba finals put up better stats than kawhi and iggy in the 2014 and 2015 nba finals.

[3ball]

.
If Paul George was bad for his performance against Denver, then how is Pippen good??



George 20' ECSF...........'..... 21.7... 5.4... 3.6... 58.7 ts

Pippen 96-98' Playoffs...... 17.6... 7.4... 5.0... 50.0 ts



1st three-peat Pippen was only marginally better than PG's Denver performance



Pippen 91-93' Playoffs...... 20.0... 8.3... 6.0... 53.6 ts



Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs in his entire career (bolded below):



1988..... 10 ppg

1989..... 13 ppg

1990..... migraine choke cost bulls title

1991..... solid

1992..... mostly solid (92' ecsf)

1993..... 2.0 bpm w/ lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade

1994..... choked vs Knicks (21.7 on 40%)

1995..... choked vs Magic (19 on 40%)

96-98'.... 17.6 on 41%

99-03'.... 14 on 41%

[ShawkFactory]

.
If Paul George was bad for his performance against Denver, then how is Pippen good??



George 20' ECSF...........'..... 21.7... 5.4... 3.6... 58.7 ts

Pippen 96-98' Playoffs...... 17.6... 7.4... 5.0... 50.0 ts



1st three-peat Pippen was only marginally better than PG's Denver performance



Pippen 91-93' Playoffs...... 20.0... 8.3... 6.0... 53.6 ts



Ultimately, Pippen had 2 decent playoff runs in his entire career (bolded below):



1988..... 10 ppg

1989..... 13 ppg

1990..... migraine choke cost bulls title

1991..... solid

1992..... mostly solid (92' ecsf)

1993..... 2.0 bpm w/ lower PER, WS/48 and pace-adjusted scoring than 14' Wade

1994..... choked vs Knicks (21.7 on 40%)

1995..... choked vs Magic (19 on 40%)

96-98'.... 17.6 on 41%

99-03'.... 14 on 41%

The average pace from 1996-1998 was ~85. The 2020 ECF were at 94.

So not only are there several extra possessions, but Pippen had a teammate who averaged 25 shots a game in this completely diminished pace. It's no wonder he didn't a) get enough shots and b) develop any sort of offensive rhythm because of it.

[3ball]

The average pace from 1996-1998 was ~85. The 2020 ECF were at 94.

So not only are there several extra possessions, but Pippen had a teammate who averaged 25 shots a game in this completely diminished pace. It's no wonder he didn't a) get enough shots and b) develop any sort of offensive rhythm because of it.


Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen averaged 50.0% true shooting in the 93' Playoffs including 45% in the Finals - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen isn't capable of more shots and the Bulls would lose if he did.

Ultimately, why do you keep talking about Jordan's shot volume when Pippen's peak capability is 22 and 5 apg, so he was clearly playing to capacity next to Jordan

[97 bulls]

Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen averaged 17 on 41% in the 96-98' Playoffs - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen averaged 50.0% true shooting in the 93' Playoffs including 45% in the Finals - you think he deserved MORE shots?

Pippen isn't capable of more shots and the Bulls would lose if he did.

Ultimately, why do you keep talking about Jordan's shot volume when Pippen's peak capability is 22 and 5 apg, so he was clearly playing to capacity next to Jordan

Because you're comparing his numbers overall to George without context.

Pace means that by default, he would scored more. Not to mention more efficiently. Stop posting stats you know nothing about.

[3ball]

Because you're comparing his numbers overall to George without context.

Pace means that by default, he would scored more. Not to mention more efficiently. Stop posting stats you know nothing about.


The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, while George was crucified.

No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games

[ShawkFactory]

The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, while George was crucified.

No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games
No, one insane loser Kawhi stan is attempting to make George the scapegoat. No one else cares about him.

[3ball]

No, one insane loser Kawhi stan is attempting to make George the scapegoat. No one else cares about him.


I watched every minute of the 96' Finals.

I was unaware that Pippen wet the bed until a few years ago when I looked it up, at which point I noticed how badly Pippen played in many series that I'd watched.

Ultimately, no one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games

[ShawkFactory]

I watched every minute of the 96' Finals.

I was unaware that Pippen wet the bed until a few years ago when I looked it up, at which point I noticed how badly Pippen played in many series that I'd watched.

Ultimately, No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games
So about the same time you decided to use context-less scoring and fg% numbers to downplay him because people started talking about Lebron on the same plane as MJ.

When you watched the 96 finals you realized and appreciated Pippen's impact as an overall basketball player.

Lebron mania turned you against him.

[3ball]

So about the same time you decided to use context-less scoring and fg% numbers to downplay him because people started talking about Lebron on the same plane as MJ.

When you watched the 96 finals you realized and appreciated Pippen's impact as an overall basketball player.

Lebron mania turned you against him.


I never noticed Pippen or his performance anymore than Grant or Paxson, who were actually more notable because they routinely hit big shots down the stretch of tight games and Pippen almost never did.

Everyone understood that Pippen was once routinely bullied and his peak capability was about 20 ppg with zero clutch, so no one was waiting for a big performance from him.. Pippen was mostly ignored, except the occasional "let's do a pippen appreciation article or interview" where his glue guy/role player attributes were lionized

[97 bulls]

The pace-adjusted numbers show the same thing - similar stats or worse for Pippen, except no one noticed for Pippen's poor play, while George was crucified.

No one noticed or tracked Pippen's play because the Bulls were a 1-man team where only 1 guy was held accountable and expected to win games

Show me the pace adjusted numbers for Pippen please.

[3ball]

Show me your pace adjusted number for Pippen pleass


Per 100 look it up yourself

17 ppg won't become better than 22 ppg I promise

[97 bulls]

Per 100 look it up yourself

17 ppg won't become better than 22 ppg I promise

But you admit that Pips points do improve in a higher pace. Butbits not that simple. The game today is totally different from today's game. The 90s was much more slow, pound to your center, walk the ball up the court. As opposed to this more open pace that s of today that's much more conducive to Pips style

[3ball]

But you admit that Pips points do improve in a higher pace. Butbits not that simple. The game today is totally different from today's game. The 90s was much more slow, pound to your center, walk the ball up the court. As opposed to this more open pace that s of today that's much more conducive to Pips style


Today's game requires shooters that can iso

Pippen can't do either and was nothing without the triangle

[97 bulls]

Today's game requires shooters that can iso

Pippen can do neither and was nothing without the triangle

Giannis is the 2 time reigning MVP and he cant shoot, dribble, or post up. Hes just a great athlete.

Pippen was a great athlete himself. In todays league Pips easily a 25/10/8 guy.

[3ball]

Giannis is the 2 time reigning MVP and he cant shoot, dribble, or post up.

Pippen was a great athlete himself. In todays league Pips easily a 25/10/8 guy.


Giannis is a great iso player

Pippen can't iso or shoot

He couldn't create his own shot or shoot and would therefore suck today

He was the poor man's Dwight Howard of forwards in pretty much every way

[ShawkFactory]

Giannis is a great iso player

Pippen can't iso or shoot

He couldn't create his own shot or shoot and would therefore suck today

He was the poor man's Dwight Howard of forwards in pretty much every way

Would he be a great ISO player with all of those packed paints you always tout?

[3ball]

Would he be a great ISO player with all of those packed paints you always tout?


Probably not - he'd be a little better than Pippen in the 90's, who couldn't iso at all and rarely created his own shot

[97 bulls]

Giannis is a great iso player

Pippen can't iso or shoot

He couldn't create his own shot or shoot and would therefore suck today

He was the poor man's Dwight Howard of forwards in pretty much every way

Giannis is NOT a great iso player. Hes a great open court player. That's why he looks so lost come playoff time.

[97 bulls]

Probably not - he'd be a little better than Pippen in the 90's, who couldn't iso at all and rarely created his own shot

This is confusing. If Paul George is better than Pippen, but Giannis Antekoumpo is only a little better than Pippen, but hes the 2 time MVP and arguably the best player in todays league. This is what happens when you troll. And I honestly don't believe you're serious about what you say most of the time.

[Axe]

No, one insane loser Kawhi stan is attempting to make George the scapegoat. No one else cares about him.
Indeed. That's a very good shout-out rt :cheers:

[mehyaM24]

20/8/7 on 48% field goal shooting

in those playoffs, pippen also finished Top 8 in overall BPM & VORP. that's alongisde other alpha producers like drexler & barkley - stockton too if you consider his playmaking "go-to". i think he was better offensively during the 1st three-peat, but more assertive all-around during the second. that comes with experience though.

[HoopsNY]

1991-97 Pippen was a phenomenal player, let alone 1991-93.

[TheCorporation]

If MJ was a better passer and didn't ballhog and didn't leave his teammates disengaged, waiting in the corners for the ball then I bet they'd be able to score more.

But MJ is not a good passer and doesn't know how to invovle his teammates. So they suffered stats. Don't cry about Pippen scoring less when Michael Jordan was a ball hog, ego maniac that couldn't pass well...

[Lebron23]

UP

[RogueBorg]

If MJ was a better passer and didn't ballhog and didn't leave his teammates disengaged, waiting in the corners for the ball then I bet they'd be able to score more.

But MJ is not a good passer and doesn't know how to invovle his teammates. So they suffered stats. Don't cry about Pippen scoring less when Michael Jordan was a ball hog, ego maniac that couldn't pass well...

When you're the greatest of all-time you want that player taking the majority of the shots and not the scrubs. Maybe L-86ron has more rings had he learned that lesson earlier. No way should anyone be passing to the George Hills and the JR Smith's of the world when the game is on the line in the NBA Finals. It's not the right basketball move passing to those scrubs. We all saw how that turned out for L-86ron.