Penny Hardaway appreciation thread

[ShaqAttack3234]

I hear a lot of people call him overrated and say that Grant Hill was much better, but if I had to choose one of them in their primes, I'd take Hardaway. Penny was one of the best 6'7" passers ever, could easily play either guard position and some small forward at either end, he was an excellent post up guard, he was great in the open court, he could hit 3's, he was excellent at penetrating and he was a very good defender.

In his short prime, Hardaway made back to back all-nba teams and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1996.

Proving he wasn't just Shaq's sidekick.
Shaq was injured to start the 1995-1996 season, but Penny led Orlando to a 17-5 record to start the season. He won the player of the month award for November by averaging 27 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 6.5 apg, 2.2 spg and 1 bpg on 51% shooting proving he could step up and carry a heavier load if needed. Orlando finished with 60 wins as Penny played all 82 games and led Orlando to a 20-8 record without Shaq.

The next season, Shaq left for the Lakers and Penny struggled through an injury-plagued season, but Orlando was still 38-21 with Penny in the lineup. Shaq had been replaced by Rony Seikaly who was coming off back to back injury-plagued seasons where he averaged just 12 ppg and 7-8 rpg. At age 31, Seikaly averaged a career high 17.3 ppg playing alongside Penny Hardaway.

The injuries also piled up for the Magic. Horace Grant missed 15 games, Nick Anderson missed 19 games and Dennis Scott missed 16 games. By that point, the missed free throws had affected Nick so much that he was a 40% free throw shooter(down from 70%) and he shot below 40% from the field(as did Dennis Scott). Somehow, Penny had this Magic team on pace for 53 wins in the games he played. Without Penny, they were just 7-16.

In the 1995 finals, Penny averaged 25.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg and 8 apg on 50% shooting.

The 1997 playoffs
He averaged 31/6/3 in the playoffs and he took Pat Riley's Heat to the maximum 5 games. Down 0-2, Penny erupted for 42 points in game 3 and 41 points in game 4 to push the series to a decisive 5th game. Penny had 33/6/10 in game 5, but the Magic were overmatched. The Heat had won 61 games in the regular season led by the superstar duo of Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway and the Magic were without Rony Seikaly in game 5. Despite that, Orlando only lost by 8.

In game 3, Penny carried Orlando to a win facing elimination despite Rony Seikaly, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson combining for 4 points on 2 for 13 shooting. In game 4, Orlando won despite Rony Seikaly being out and Anderson and Scott combing for just 10 points on 4 for 13 shooting. Penny became the first player in NBA history to score 40 points in back to back playoff teams that his team scored less than 100 points in.

Penny proved he was capable of being a franchise player in 1996 when he led the team without Shaq and finished 3rd in MVP voting as well as 1997 when he carried a severely undermanned and overmatched team vs a great Heat team. That team had no business taking Miami to a decisive 5th game. Look at what Penny's 3 best teammates from the regular season did in the series.

Rony Seikaly- 6.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1 bpg, 0 apg, 31.8 FG%(played just 3 games)
Nick Anderson- 5.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 0.8 apg, 33.3 FG%
Dennis Scott- 3 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 1 apg, 26.1 FG%

We got some false hope of Penny returning to form in Phoenix. Penny averaged 16.9 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg and 1.6 spg on 47.4% shooting. Unfortunately, he and Jason Kidd only played together in 45 games(Phoenix was 33-12 in those games). That's a 60 win pace. Penny stepped up in Kidd's absence in the first round of the 2000 playoffs. With Kidd only playing 1 game, Penny averaged 19 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.8 spg and 1 bpg to lead Phoenix to a sweep over a Duncan-less Spurs team. He continued his strong play in round 2 vs the Lakers averaging 21.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 5.6 apg, 1.4 spg and 1 bpg on 49% shooting. He finished the 2000 playoffs with averages of 20.3 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.7 apg, 1.6 spg and 1 bpg on 46% shooting.

After playing in just 4 games in 2001, Hardaway was finally healthy in 2002 and he played 80 games. He started off very strong averaging 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg and 4.6 apg in November. Unfortunately, Penny's playing time decreased as Phoenix tried to get Joe Johnson some more playing time.

I have no doubt that Penny would have been a hall of famer had he not had that knee injury in the 1997-1998 season. He was skilled, versatile, unselfish, athletic and unlike many star perimeter players, a winner.

[pete's montreux]

Define "very good defender". I've been under the impression that he was a below average defender who relied on passing lanes. Much like CP3.

[momo]

Penny & Shaq splitting are as much a tragedy in my mind as KG & Starburry.
You get the feeling that they are the next generation and could be golden and then they are just not.

[zizozain]

appreciatiing

http://krossovki.net/images/stories/review/Jordans/aj9/Penny_Hardaway.jpg

[AirJordan&Magic]

I hear a lot of people call him overrated and say that Grant Hill was much better, but if I had to choose one of them in their primes, I'd take Hardaway. Penny was one of the best 6'7" passers ever, could easily play either guard position and some small forward at either end, he was an excellent post up guard, he was great in the open court, he could hit 3's, he was excellent at penetrating and he was a very good defender.

In his short prime, Hardaway made back to back all-nba teams and finished 3rd in MVP voting in 1996.

Proving he wasn't just Shaq's sidekick.
Shaq was injured to start the 1995-1996 season, but Penny led Orlando to a 17-5 record to start the season. He won the player of the month award for November by averaging 27 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 6.5 apg, 2.2 spg and 1 bpg on 51% shooting proving he could step up and carry a heavier load if needed. Orlando finished with 60 wins as Penny played all 82 games and led Orlando to a 20-8 record without Shaq.

The next season, Shaq left for the Lakers and Penny struggled through an injury-plagued season, but Orlando was still 38-21 with Penny in the lineup. Shaq had been replaced by Rony Seikaly who was coming off back to back injury-plagued seasons where he averaged just 12 ppg and 7-8 rpg. At age 31, Seikaly averaged a career high 17.3 ppg playing alongside Penny Hardaway.

The injuries also piled up for the Magic. Horace Grant missed 15 games, Nick Anderson missed 19 games and Dennis Scott missed 16 games. By that point, the missed free throws had affected Nick so much that he was a 40% free throw shooter(down from 70%) and he shot below 40% from the field(as did Dennis Scott). Somehow, Penny had this Magic team on pace for 53 wins in the games he played. Without Penny, they were just 7-16.

In the 1995 finals, Penny averaged 25.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg and 8 apg on 50% shooting.

The 1997 playoffs
He averaged 31/6/3 in the playoffs and he took Pat Riley's Heat to the maximum 5 games. Down 0-2, Penny erupted for 42 points in game 3 and 41 points in game 4 to push the series to a decisive 5th game. Penny had 33/6/10 in game 5, but the Magic were overmatched. The Heat had won 61 games in the regular season led by the superstar duo of Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway and the Magic were without Rony Seikaly in game 5. Despite that, Orlando only lost by 8.

In game 3, Penny carried Orlando to a win facing elimination despite Rony Seikaly, Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson combining for 4 points on 2 for 13 shooting. In game 4, Orlando won despite Rony Seikaly being out and Anderson and Scott combing for just 10 points on 4 for 13 shooting. Penny became the first player in NBA history to score 40 points in back to back playoff teams that his team scored less than 100 points in.

Penny proved he was capable of being a franchise player in 1996 when he led the team without Shaq and finished 3rd in MVP voting as well as 1997 when he carried a severely undermanned and overmatched team vs a great Heat team. That team had no business taking Miami to a decisive 5th game. Look at what Penny's 3 best teammates from the regular season did in the series.

Rony Seikaly- 6.3 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 1 bpg, 0 apg, 31.8 FG%(played just 3 games)
Nick Anderson- 5.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 0.8 apg, 33.3 FG%
Dennis Scott- 3 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 1 apg, 26.1 FG%

We got some false hope of Penny returning to form in Phoenix. Penny averaged 16.9 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 5.3 apg and 1.6 spg on 47.4% shooting. Unfortunately, he and Jason Kidd only played together in 45 games(Phoenix was 33-12 in those games). That's a 60 win pace. Penny stepped up in Kidd's absence in the first round of the 2000 playoffs. With Kidd only playing 1 game, Penny averaged 19 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.8 spg and 1 bpg to lead Phoenix to a sweep over a Duncan-less Spurs team. He continued his strong play in round 2 vs the Lakers averaging 21.4 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 5.6 apg, 1.4 spg and 1 bpg on 49% shooting. He finished the 2000 playoffs with averages of 20.3 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.7 apg, 1.6 spg and 1 bpg on 46% shooting.

After playing in just 4 games in 2001, Hardaway was finally healthy in 2002 and he played 80 games. He started off very strong averaging 19.9 ppg, 5.4 rpg and 4.6 apg in November. Unfortunately, Penny's playing time decreased as Phoenix tried to get Joe Johnson some more playing time.

I have no doubt that Penny would have been a hall of famer had he not had that knee injury in the 1997-1998 season. He was skilled, versatile, unselfish, athletic and unlike many star perimeter players, a winner.

:applause: Penny was one of my favorite players back in the day...Good to see him being appreciated like this.

[Rafael Delaget]

Define "very good defender". I've been under the impression that he was a below average defender who relied on passing lanes. Much like CP3.

Not this sh!t again...

[ShaqAttack3234]

Define "very good defender". I've been under the impression that he was a below average defender who relied on passing lanes. Much like CP3.

He use to play Jordan tough. he didn't shut him down, but he'd make him work. I think MJ even praised Penny's defense.

[pete's montreux]

He use to play Jordan tough. he didn't shut him down, but he'd make him work. I think MJ even praised Penny's defense.

I think a lot of people tried to work extra hard when you're up against an elite player, but does that mean he was the same the other 80 games in a season? I don't know, you tell me.

[SCdac]

Having been born in '85 and going through much of the NBA experience in the 90's, AH was probably my favorite player growing up, at least top-3. One of the only jerseys I ever owned, was a Hardaway Orlando Jersey. Still have a nice Penny poster rolled up somewhere from the Jam Session here in SA back in 1996... His skills and explosiveness, at his height and stature, were amazing. He was just a joy to watch... I haven't seen him overrated too much (lately at least), rather, injuries cost him and it's undeniable... Penny was the man though :applause:

[Alhazred]

I gave your thread five stars, Shaqattack. I haven't seen anyone show Penny much love since the late 90s. :cheers:

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

He was a beast in his early Orlando career.

It was when he stopped being a playmaker and decided he wanted to be a primary scorer that he started to decline.

On a sidenote, if he hadn't wowed the Magic front office with his so called amazing work out, the Magic may have selected Webber with their pick instead of trading it to GS.

Imagine Shaq and Webber (one of the best passing big men ever) playing next to eachother for a decade? I don't know if Shaq bolts to LA, but it would have been pretty awesome to watch that team with Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson.

[Lebron23]

Don't forget Lil Penny.

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/lil-penny-image-5.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK88MQWsYj8

He was also one of my favorite NBA Players when I was growing up.

[west]

Penny and Shaq was a big part of my childhood.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

I don't appreciate any NBA player who only had a couple of allstar caliber seasons. Overrated.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think a lot of people tried to work extra hard when you're up against an elite player, but does that mean he was the same the other 80 games in a season? I don't know, you tell me.

Yes, Penny's defense was always quite good. He wasn't lazy on his man defense and I remember him being better than Hill in that aspect.


I don't appreciate any NBA player who only had a couple of allstar caliber seasons. Overrated.

You don't appreciate him because you're not old enough to have seen him. He was only healthy for a few seasons. Penny in his prime was not overrated.

[B-Diddy=2Easy]

Yes, Penny's defense was always quite good. He wasn't lazy on his man defense and I remember him being better than Hill in that aspect.



You don't appreciate him because you're not old enough to have seen him. He was only healthy for a few seasons. Penny in his prime was not overrated.

Fair enough.

[plowking]

Yes, we all loved him growing up, though yes, he is overrated. I've hear several posters say that if he kept playing he'd be considered better than Vince and Tracy, etc. He was a good player, though due to being one of the most popular players back in the day he does get hyped to being something he simply wasn't, clearly evident in your post by labelling him a good defender.


Also, isn't it funny that each SG Shaq played with all became the NBA's favorite son?

[LAClipsFan33]

You don't appreciate him because you're not old enough to have seen him. He was only healthy for a few seasons. Penny in his prime was not overrated.

This.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes, we all loved him growing up, though yes, he is overrated. I've hear several posters say that if he kept playing he'd be considered better than Vince and Tracy, etc.

I'm not sure Vince was ever as good as Penny was in 1996. Possibly 2001 or 2005, but even then it's debatable. If Penny had stayed healthy I have very little doubt he would have had a better career than both of them.

Back to Back All-NBA 1st team selections and All-NBA 3rd team in a season that he only played 59 games in. 10th in MVP voting in 1995 and 3rd in 1996. Played on four 50 win teams, 2 conference finals, an NBA finals and a 60 win team.

T-Mac was healthy a lot longer and never finished as high as 3rd in MVP voting and he only matched Penny with 2 All-NBA 1st team selections. Technically including the 2009 Rockets, T-Mac matched him with four 50 win teams, but he never made it out of the first round and never won 60 games.

Carter has never played on a 50 win team, never played in the conference finals, has just 2 all-nba selections(2nd and 3rd team) and has never finished higher than 10th in NBA voting.

As far as what they did on the court? Penny was a better passer/playmaker and defender than either of them, although they both have him beat in scoring, shooting and rebounding. But Penny was better at making his teammates better and I think he was a better winner in a 5 on 5 game of basketball.

[plowking]

I'm not sure Vince was ever as good as Penny was in 1996. Possibly 2001 or 2005, but even then it's debatable. If Penny had stayed healthy I have very little doubt he would have had a better career than both of them.

Back to Back All-NBA 1st team selections and All-NBA 3rd team in a season that he only played 59 games in. 10th in MVP voting in 1995 and 3rd in 1996. Played on four 50 win teams, 2 conference finals, an NBA finals and a 60 win team.

T-Mac was healthy a lot longer and never finished as high as 3rd in MVP voting and he only matched Penny with 2 All-NBA 1st team selections. Technically including the 2009 Rockets, T-Mac matched him with four 50 win teams, but he never made it out of the first round and never won 60 games.

Carter has never played on a 50 win team, never played in the conference finals, has just 2 all-nba selections(2nd and 3rd team) and has never finished higher than 10th in NBA voting.

As far as what they did on the court? Penny was a better passer/playmaker and defender than either of them, although they both have him beat in scoring, shooting and rebounding. But Penny was better at making his teammates better and I think he was a better winner in a 5 on 5 game of basketball.

See right there, you over rate him once again.

Penny only got to the first team because Jordan was sitting out. Also, in no way was he better than Payton that season, though simply got it over him because he was the NBA's love child who sat beside the lovable Shaq. They were one of the most popular teams.
Once again, Payton was better the following year.

Also, in no way is Penny a better defender than T-Mac. Tracy came into the league regarded as a premier defender and someone who can cause havoc for other long, athletic wings, and he did that in his first few seasons.

[ronnymac]

McGrady when he wants to try on defense is/was better defender penny ever was.But penny in his prime was a beast. the guy could flatout score. he was great at getting to the rim. had a great mid-range game and was a very good passer.

[JohnnySic]

You don't appreciate him because you're not old enough to have seen him. He was only healthy for a few seasons. Penny in his prime was not overrated.
I'm 35; I saw Penny's whole career going back to his Memphis days. Great player, but VERY overrated. People talk about him like he was Kobe/LeBron level. He wasn't; more like Brandon Roy/Joe Johnson level. In other words, he was a great player but not elite.

[guado]

is this where we post about his affair with urkel?

:confusedshrug:

no, just kidding .

penny was amazing in his orlando days.

i want to say he was more unfulfilled potential rather than overrated, due to his injury, but i won't hide that i was a big fan of those magic teams.

i think i also have a pair of penny IV's somewhere in my room.

[BFRESH44]

http://www.soleredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nike-air-penny-ii-feature-6.jpg

Appreciated. :pimp:

He was a great player for a little 4-5 year stretch. Microfracture and bone spurs killed him.

I do think he tends to get overrated every nowadays. But he was very good, nonetheless.

[mmsupra]

:cheers: ..I remember that playoff series against the Heat like yesterday and they almost came back in Game 5.

[kkling]

He was my favorite player when I was growing up in Florida. Damn injuries.

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post. If anything he is underrated today. His name will forever be linked to Grant Hill's. He was very comparable to Hill in terms of ability but people today act as if Hill was in another league from him. Hill was better, but not by much.

[HylianNightmare]

http://kwanzaa-tokyo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/nike-air-penny-ii-2-retro-10.jpg

man had some nice shoes too

still trying to get ahold of one of his jerseys

[AirJordan23]

Penny was great. Much better than his stats showed. I loved his game. Had a lot of Magic Johnson in his game and he was getting a lot of comparisons to Magic at that time too along with Steve Smith. He was more athletic than Magic but not as strong and obviously didn't have enough impact on the games as Magic did. His stutter dribble, hesitation move and then the EXPLOSION was one of my favorite moves of his. He also had a nice post game. Up and unders, spin moves and a sweet turnaround jumpshot. Had some nice footwork down low. His passing was great too. Amazing court vision and he had the type of passes that you made jump out of your seat. He was a good shooter as well. Mid range, pull up 3s etc. But, he did benefit from the shortened 3 point line. Solid defender too. Had a lot of hype and flash to his game. I wanna say he was a top 5 player in the league for a certain period of time. I'd say early in the '96 season where Shaq was out and he led Orlando to a great start. Orlando in 1997 also had a great record when Penny played. And who can forget his wonderful performance in the series against the Heat which was arguably the best defensive team in the league at that point along with CHI. Exploded in games 3 and 4 and literally carried them to victory. And Orlando had a bunch of injuries that series too. Sad to see such great talents like him and Grant Hill go down to injuries. He tends to get overrated by certain people who watch a couple of highlight reels and think he was a superstar in the true sense. But, definitely not terribly overrated.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

http://www.soleredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nike-air-penny-ii-feature-6.jpg

Appreciated. :pimp:

He was a great player for a little 4-5 year stretch. Microfracture and bone spurs killed him.

I do think he tends to get overrated every nowadays. But he was very good, nonetheless.

Those shoes were the pwn.

Penny was starting to get overrated even before all the injuries.

When Shaq bolted to LA and Penny decided to be a scorer instead of a playmaker, he started to become overrated.

[ShaqAttack3234]

See right there, you over rate him once again.

:oldlol: When did Vince seperate himself from Penny? See right there, you overrate the current player.(big surprise).


Penny only got to the first team because Jordan was sitting out. Also, in no way was he better than Payton that season, though simply got it over him because he was the NBA's love child who sat beside the lovable Shaq. They were one of the most popular teams.
Once again, Payton was better the following year.

Who cares if he made one all-nba ifrst team because Jordan was gone? Jordan was retired when Carter and McGrady were in their prime as well, shouldn't take away from their accomplishments.

And what was Payton better at in '95 and '96 other than defense? Those 2 were debatable overall.


Also, in no way is Penny a better defender than T-Mac. Tracy came into the league regarded as a premier defender and someone who can cause havoc for other long, athletic wings, and he did that in his first few seasons.

I was referring to T-Mac's overall prime. When T-Mac was in prime as an overall player, he was not a very good defender.


I'm 35; I saw Penny's whole career going back to his Memphis days. Great player, but VERY overrated. People talk about him like he was Kobe/LeBron level. He wasn't; more like Brandon Roy/Joe Johnson level. In other words, he was a great player but not elite.

Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson level? :lol:

[robertshaw_1]

ranks 20

[AirJordan23]

I'd say Penny's peak was around 1996. That was definitely the year where his hype was at its peak. Orlando was the reigning ECF champs and made it to the ECF again. Penny was selected to the Dream Team. And in reality, I'd say he was a top 10 player in the league. Here are the premier stars of the league around that time.

Hakeem
MJ
DRob
Shaq
Malone
Hill
Pippen
Barkley
Kemp
Zo
Ewing
GP

Penny has no argument over Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, DRob or Malone. The rest are very arguable. I'd prefer Hill over Penny. GP and Pippen are above him for their superior defensive impact. The rest is very arguable, though.

[JohnnySic]

Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson level?
Yes.

Hakeem
MJ
DRob
Shaq
Malone
Hill
Pippen
Barkley
Kemp
Zo
Ewing
GP
Webber > Penny. People ALWAYS forget Chris Webber, or think of him as more of a 2000's player than a 90's player. I dont know why. :confusedshrug:

[AirJordan23]

Yes.

Webber > Penny. People ALWAYS forget Chris Webber, or think of him as more of a 2000's player than a 90's player. I dont know why. :confusedshrug:
Webber was out for most of the 1996 season with a dislocated shoulder and he missed a significant amount of time the previous year as well so I didn't bother putting him on the list. But, yeah he deserves some consideration. Regarding Penny and Webber, I always wondered if they weren't traded for each other. The CWebb/Shaq tandem would've definitely been interesting to watch. Webber at that time was pretty athletic and explosive and he wouldn't clog the lane for Shaq since Webber operated more in the high post. They were also surrounded with some great 3 point shooters to spread the floor with Nick Anderson and Scott. Shaw could also hit the 3. CWebb also won ROY in '94 outshining Penny on that unconventional Warrior team. But, yeah, when healthy you can definitely make a case for Webber over Penny.

I forgot to put Stockton's name up there as well but I wouldn't take him over Penny at that time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes.

Right, :oldlol: I could really see those guys finishing 3rd in MVP voting and making back to back all-nba first teams.

What exactly did those guys do better than Penny? I guess Joe Johnson was a better 3 point shooter, but I'll take Penny's aggressive style any day and Penny was a considerably better passer/playmaker. I'll take Penny's defense as well. So basically Johnson was better 3 point shooter(while Penny was as good if not better at everything else) and Roy doesn't do anything better than Penny.

[v3DreJ80]

Hill>Penny.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hill>Penny.

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.

[v3DreJ80]

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.
Yeah, Penny was a better winner that's why neither of them are ever won jack. :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, Penny was a better winner that's why neither of them are ever won jack. :oldlol:

Penny was barely healthy and he still won more than Hill. he made it to the finals and the ECF, played on four 50 win teams, a 60 win team.

Hill played on just two 50 win teams(one of them was as the 5th or 6th option. And Hill has never made it out of the first round(it's funny how people love to point that out about T-Mac, but ignore it about Hill). Hill had six seasons where he was healthy before he became injury prone, Penny had 3.

[plowking]

Hill was a better rebounder, that's about it. Penny was the better winner, passer, shooter and defender. I also thought his post game was better. As overall scorers they're about even.

Oh please. Getting stuck next to one of the best centers ever doesn't make you a better winner, it makes you fortunate. And no, he wasn't a better defender either. Just because you have a 7 footer behind you and can push up on the ball, you are somehow the better defender. Penny wasn't that great a defender. Just because he chose to step it up against one player in MJ, doesn't make him as great as you say he is.

Also now he was a better passer than Hill? :oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Oh please. Getting stuck next to one of the best centers ever doesn't make you a better winner, it makes you fortunate. And no, he wasn't a better defender either. Just because you have a 7 footer behind you and can push up on the ball, you are somehow the better defender. Penny wasn't that great a defender. Just because he chose to step it up against one player in MJ, doesn't make him as great as you say he is.

Also now he was a better passer than Hill? :oldlol:

:oldlol: What's wrong with saying Penny was a better passer than Hill? Did you even watch Penny play? And yes, he was a better winner than Hill. In six healthy seasons in his prime, Hill made the playoffs 4 times and his numbers were comparable to his season numbers only once(he can't be blamed for 2000 though due to the injury). Penny stepped up his game in the playoffs, look at the 1997 playoffs or the 1995 finals. Look at what Penny did when Shaq was injured in 1996 and look his record with Orlando even after they replaced Shaq with Rony Seikaly who hadn't played well the last 2 seasons and that was with Nick Anderson already being done mentally after the 1995 finals(he dropped to a 40% FT shooter).

And Penny was typically a good perimeter defender, better than most of the star perimeter players of the past decade who very rarely even try to play 1 on 1 defense.

[v3DreJ80]

Penny was barely healthy and he still won more than Hill. he made it to the finals and the ECF, played on four 50 win teams, a 60 win team.

Hill played on just two 50 win teams(one of them was as the 5th or 6th option. And Hill has never made it out of the first round(it's funny how people love to point that out about T-Mac, but ignore it about Hill). Hill had six seasons where he was healthy before he became injury prone, Penny had 3.
I'm sure playing next to this 7'0 500 pound gorilla didn't help. :oldlol:

[plowking]

:oldlol: When did Vince seperate himself from Penny? See right there, you overrate the current player.(big surprise).

Yeah, huge surprise, I think Vince is the better player... because he is maybe? Peak season of 28/6/4/2/1 on 46/41/77 percentages is far better than anything Penny did. I don't care if he's a better winner, Vince would be too if he played next to Shaq, in fact, he would have won something.


Who cares if he made one all-nba ifrst team because Jordan was gone? Jordan was retired when Carter and McGrady were in their prime as well, shouldn't take away from their accomplishments.


Of course it matters, he made the teams when the best player was sitting out. McGrady or Vince never had Bryant, Iverson, Wade, Nash sit out.


And what was Payton better at in '95 and '96 other than defense? Those 2 were debatable overall.

Defense by miles, and offense. Just because the stats don't show it, which is your be all and end all, doesn't mean its not so. Payton was able to lead his team to more wins, with equal talent (saying this due to Shaq being out for 30 odd games).



I was referring to T-Mac's overall prime. When T-Mac was in prime as an overall player, he was not a very good defender.

He averaged 2spg and 1bpg in his prime, and with his defensive talents he didn't do it by going off his man and trying to pick pocket guys from behind or too much gambling.

[plowking]

:oldlol: What's wrong with saying Penny was a better passer than Hill? Did you even watch Penny play? And yes, he was a better winner than Hill. In six healthy seasons in his prime, Hill made the playoffs 4 times and his numbers were comparable to his season numbers only once(he can't be blamed for 2000 though due to the injury). Penny stepped up his game in the playoffs, look at the 1997 playoffs or the 1995 finals. Look at what Penny did when Shaq was injured in 1996 and look his record with Orlando even after they replaced Shaq with Rony Seikaly who hadn't played well the last 2 seasons and that was with Nick Anderson already being done mentally after the 1995 finals(he dropped to a 40% FT shooter).

And Penny was typically a good perimeter defender, better than most of the star perimeter players of the past decade who very rarely even try to play 1 on 1 defense.

He played 5 games in the 97 playoffs. Anyone can have a great stretch or series... :rolleyes:

No, you aren't a better winner just because you got stuck next to one of the most dominant centers at his absolutely glory days.

And once again, no, he wasn't a very good defensive player. He's the only star guard Shaq has played with that hasn't gone on a all defensive team. He really was a poor defender.

[AirJordan23]

Hill was a better defender than Penny. Penny was below average in that regard. He had a lot of trouble guarding smaller, quicker guards and even the wings though he did a solid job of contesting shots. He was extremely quick on the offensive end in regards to getting to the lane but that quickness was hardly on display on the defensive end. I'd say lack of effort was the biggest problem. He was a good team defender, though. Most of the steals he got were NOT from playing the passing lanes and his weakside defense was solid as well. Hill wasn't a spectacular defender, either but I'd say he was a notch above Penny.

[Roundball_Rock]

Getting stuck next to one of the best centers ever doesn't make you a better winner, it makes you fortunate.

Penny proved he could lead a championship contender without Shaq when he was healthy. He did better--much better--when Shaq was hurt than young Kobe or young Wade did. The Magic without Shaq remained an elite team thanks to Penny; LA and Miami without Shaq played .500 or worse ball. If Orlando was all Shaq how could they compete so well without him?


Of course it matters, he made the teams when the best player was sitting out.

The last time I checked Jordan played in 96'...

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) P. Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

Jordan also must be why Penny was 3rd in MVP voting in 96', right? What is VC's top MVP finish? 10th or 11th? Penny was a guy you could go to war with; prime Carter was a guy who could sell tickets.

Jordan being retired means nothing. Is Drexler's all-NBA first team selection in 92' illegitimate because Magic retired?



He played 5 games in the 97 playoffs. Anyone can have a great stretch or series...


:eek: at this coming from a Heat fan. You do realize the Heat had some good teams before Wade, don't you?

[Alhazred]

Penny proved he could lead a championship contender without Shaq when he was healthy. He did better--much better--when Shaq was hurt than young Kobe or young Wade did. The Magic without Shaq remained an elite team thanks to Penny; LA and Miami without Shaq played .500 or worse ball. If Orlando was all Shaq how could they compete so well without him?



The last time I checked Jordan played in 96'...

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1995

1) Malone (F) 519
2) Robinson (C) 479
3) Pippen (F) 451
4) Stockton (G) 447
5) P. Hardaway (G) 394

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/05/12/sp...s-all-nba.html

Top 5 in all-NBA voting in 1996

1) Jordan (G) 113 (unanimous)
2) Pippen (F) 91
3) P. Hardaway (G) 90
4) Malone (F) 89
5) Robinson (C) 65

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/24/sp...tar-again.html

Jordan also must be why Penny was 3rd in MVP voting in 96', right? What is VC's top MVP finish? 10th or 11th? Penny was a guy you could go to war with; prime Carter was a guy who could sell tickets.

Jordan being retired means nothing. Is Drexler's all-NBA first team selection in 92' illegitimate because Magic retired?

:applause: Nice post, Roundball.

[chitownsfinest]

The thing about Penny's peak is that we never really saw Penny's true peak considering he started to get with injuries by his 4th season. With Hill, we saw the numbers he was capable of in his peak since he started to get with serious injuries by his eighth season while with Penny we only really saw flashes of it like in that two game stretch against Miami in the playoffs.

Anyways, Penny was a really skilled offensive player. He was great at passing and could throw up some nice lobs as well. He could score from every part of the floor and had a nice stroke. He had some nice footwork and could play in the post as well. He had nice body control as well and could finish de3cently at the rim. He was a bit turnover prone and he was fairly decent on D, but there was never a serious flaw he had on the offensive end imo.

[Lebron23]

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pennynew4.jpg

http://www.nbasuateam.net/images/nbasuateam/PennyHardaway-1017.jpg

Penny has some of the best shoes.

http://www.nbasuateam.net/penny-hardaway-shoes-c-13.html

[pauk]

He and Reggie were my favorite players growing up! :bowdown:

[Round Mound]

Penny was All Star Level but he wasn`t better :no: than Grant Hill.

[PTB Fan]

Penny was a beast.

What could he truly been is what many wonder these days?

[Lebron23]

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/legend-penny-hardaway-of-the-east-team-shoots-the-ball-news-photo/139781133


Penny Hardaway in 2012.

[Indian guy]

Probably the most skilled low-post guard after Magic.

That said, he didn't have much of a face-up game, did he? He had to be a good post-player to be a star in the league.

[tmacattack33]

Probably the most skilled low-post guard after Magic.

That said, he didn't have much of a face-up game, did he? He had to be a good post-player to be a star in the league.

:wtf:

Penny was a great driver.

[Lebron23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du1JGCCeuAY

Penny Hardaway's Top 10 Magic Plays

[SwooshReturns]

That said, he didn't have much of a face-up game, did he? He had to be a good post-player to be a star in the league.
Penny was always taking people off the dribble ... the hell are you talking about?

:oldlol:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Penny was always taking people off the dribble ... the hell are you talking about?

:oldlol:

Yeah, Penny was one of the more complete perimeter players offensively back then. Great mid-range and post game, but definitely skilled and explosive off the dribble. Only thing lacking compared to some was maybe a bit of extra range on his shot, but not really an issue. I have no doubt he could've been one of the league's leading scorers had he wanted to or not been on a team that had that much scoring and ran so much of their offense through the post.

Really a different player than Magic despite the comparisons, though one thing he did like to do that Magic did often was protect the ball when taking the ball up with his back to the basket and if there and if it was open, spin off his defender quickly and get right to the basket.

[SwooshReturns]

Yeah, Penny was one of the more complete perimeter players offensively back then.
Yet in retrospect, even as a rookie in '94 ... GREAT footwork and post up skills.

Shows the total drop off in fundamentals compared to today's players.

Hell, Penny's post game coming out the game was better than Kobe's ... especially considering Penny wasn't trying to imitate someone else's move set and style.

Pretty impressive.


Really a different player than Magic despite the comparisons, though one thing he did like to do that Magic did often was protect the ball when taking the ball up with his back to the basket and if there and if it was open, spin off his defender quickly and get right to the basket.
Yea, notice this as well.

I just love the attacking style, why settle for long range shots when you can get to the rim or near the rim with your skills and basketball intelligence?

It compromises the defense, and even if you're intentions are to score ... it makes all your teammates a threat at the same time. By driving and getting inside, it doesn't let the defense off the hook.

[CelticBaller]

http://theshoegame.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pennynew4.jpg

http://www.nbasuateam.net/images/nbasuateam/PennyHardaway-1017.jpg

Penny has some of the best shoes.

http://www.nbasuateam.net/penny-hardaway-shoes-c-13.html
I remember back when the foamsites were thought to be the ugliest shoes ever. now I see them everywhere :oldlol: