New ESPN Stat: Lebron James/Kobe Bryant Related

[MaxFly]

I'm not sure if anyone saw last night's ESPN coverage of Kobe Bryant's game winner, but something stood out to me during the broadcast...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN.

[plowking]

They'll prop anything up there as long as those two are atop of the rankings.

[Duncan21formvp]

I'm not sure if anyone saw last night's ESPN coverage of Kobe Bryant's game winner, but something stood out to me during the broadcast...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN.

Lebron didn't come into the league until 2003-2004. So really they are helping Kobe out on this one giving him an extra year.

[AJ2k8]

02-03 is the first season kobe/shaq didnt win it all?

[kkling]

I remember seeing this earlier in the year.

[arkain]

VC too clutch !

[HylianNightmare]

why 02-03 get vince off that list

[MaxFly]

Lebron didn't come into the league until 2003-2004. So really they are helping Kobe out on this one giving him an extra year.

So that would mean this stat is more of a comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant. However, on the night of a game winner, why no stat on the number of game winners hit by active players?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Lebron didn't come into the league until 2003-2004. So really they are helping Kobe out on this one giving him an extra year.
Pretty lame of them, but whatever. James is doing 30, 8.5, and 7 right now...it's pretty clear he's the game's best player, no matter how they try to skew things.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So that would mean this stat is more of a comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant. However, on the night of a game winner, why no stat on the number of game winners hit by active players?
It'd lessen the total number of made shots for everyone, thus making it look less impressive. It's also "interesting" that they chose to mention that Bryant is 5-8 this year but ignore that James was in high school in 02-03. It's pretty badly slanted.

[lakers_forever]

So that would mean this stat is more of a comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant. However, on the night of a game winner, why no stat on the number of game winners hit by active players?

To make Lebron look good, since he does not have a lot of game winners. No one in their right mind would say Lebron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant.

[dynasty1978]

So that would mean this stat is more of a comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant. However, on the night of a game winner, why no stat on the number of game winners hit by active players?

Exactly, just a simple list of game winners by active players or even all-time is sufficient, no need to frame it, qualify it, etc.

[sbw19]

and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

It isn't random when it's result-oriented.

[NBASTATMAN]

I'm not sure if anyone saw last night's ESPN coverage of Kobe Bryant's game winner, but something stood out to me during the broadcast...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN.


Lebron is a super clutch player but this year belongs to Kobe... Both are clutch but if I need a long shot made Kobe is the man....

[Real Men Wear Green]

To make Lebron look good, since he does not have a lot of game winners. No one in their right mind would say Lebron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant.
And yet he's hit more meaningful baskets since 02-03, in spite of not even playing in 02-03? Bryant has been the top clutch shooter for this season but James has clearly been great over his career. The gap in clutch shooting is not nearly as wide as you suggest.

[NBASTATMAN]

I'm not sure if anyone saw last night's ESPN coverage of Kobe Bryant's game winner, but something stood out to me during the broadcast...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN.


Wow I just saw that Vince is up there as well. Stats don't lie in these type of situations.. So congrats to Vince who has been pretty clutch in the games I have watched of his...

[lakers_forever]

And yet he's hit more meaningful baskets since 02-03, in spite of not even playing in 02-03? Bryant has been the top clutch shooter for this season but James has clearly been great over his career. The gap in clutch shooting is not nearly as wide as you suggest.

Are you sure? Lebron may the better player already indeed, but I don't think he is close in terms of clutch play to Kobe.

How many game winners does Lebron have in his career?

[NBASTATMAN]

Lebron has at least 4 game winnners in the playoffs already... That is great.. I don't know how many he has in the regular season...

[MaxFly]

It'd lessen the total number of made shots for everyone, thus making it look less impressive. It's also "interesting" that they chose to mention that Bryant is 5-8 this year but ignore that James was in high school in 02-03. It's pretty badly slanted.

I'd disagree. The 2002-2003 marker is peculiar, but since we're talking about Bryant hitting another game winner last night, why not have a stat on the total number of game winners hit by all active players during his career. It seems that they shortened the number of years and manipulated the parameters in order to make it a more of comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant.

It's obvious the stat was shown as a result of Bryant hitting another game winner... so if we're talking about Bryant, why would they present a stat that only takes into account 2002 or 2003 to 2010 numbers instead of his career numbers. Seems interesting...

[DukeDelonte13]

To make Lebron look good, since he does not have a lot of game winners. No one in their right mind would say Lebron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant.


define clutch.

Lebron can just drive to the basket and 9/10 times he either scores or goes to the line. Kobe is the better guy to take that last shot, but Lebron taking it to the basket is like money in the bank.

[lakers_forever]

define clutch.

Lebron can just drive to the basket and 9/10 times he either scores or goes to the line. Kobe is the better guy to take that last shot, but Lebron taking it to the basket is like money in the bank.

It is indeed. But in the last games, he has shot too many stupid 3's in clutch situations.

[NBASTATMAN]

Are you sure? Lebron may the better player already indeed, but I don't think he is close in terms of clutch play to Kobe.

How many game winners does Lebron have in his career?


It is hard to argue that Lebron is as good as Kobe in clutch situations..But before this year Kobe has never been this clutch... He is just on a roll... Lebron may have this type of clutch run at one point in his career.. This is by far Kobe's best year in terms of clutch shots...

[DukeDelonte13]

It is indeed. But in the last games, he has shot too many stupid 3's in clutch situations.


also indeed. It is starting to piss me off. :oldlol:

[plowking]

I'd like to see the FGA as well. I bet they didn't show that for a reason.

[Allstar24]

We all have eyes and there is a reason why people keep saying Kobe is the clutchest player in the game. Just look at the opposing team's bench, they look beat already as soon as his shot goes up :oldlol:

[Kurosawa0]

Getting a basket in the last 24 seconds doesn't always mean it's a game winner. LeBron may have missed that "slip three" against the Nuggets, but two possessions prior to that he did make a three point play. That's all in the clutch and it's those types of plays that lead to stats like in the original post.

[amfirst]

Clutchness has to do a lot with opportunities, i wonder whats the stats on shots made per opportunity.

[amfirst]

Getting a basket in the last 24 seconds doesn't always mean it's a game winner. LeBron may have missed that "slip three" against the Nuggets, but two possessions prior to that he did make a three point play. That's all in the clutch and it's those types of plays that lead to stats like in the original post.

Yea, Kobe has a lot of those during the Lakers rebuilt phase, but a lot of times the players were too crappy for the Lakers to win. Opposing teams would leave their man to stop Kobe consistently.

[catch24]

I'd disagree. The 2002-2003 marker is peculiar, but since we're talking about Bryant hitting another game winner last night, why not have a stat on the total number of game winners hit by all active players during his career. It seems that they shortened the number of years and manipulated the parameters in order to make it a more of comparison stat between Lebron and Bryant.

It's obvious the stat was shown as a result of Bryant hitting another game winner... so if we're talking about Bryant, why would they present a stat that only takes into account 2002 or 2003 to 2010 numbers instead of his career numbers. Seems interesting...

I agree on all counts, but that's what ESPN is, a hype machine.


Getting a basket in the last 24 seconds doesn't always mean it's a game winner. LeBron may have missed that "slip three" against the Nuggets, but two possessions prior to that he did make a three point play. That's all in the clutch and it's those types of plays that lead to stats like in the original post.

Excellent point. lol @ FGM. I'd like to see Kobe's FGM through out his career with 24 seconds or left, hell, his clutch stats (82 games criteria) through out his career. Unfortunately, I don't think any sites have this info.

[Younggrease]

My thing is this...if were talking about Kobe Bryant hitting a game winner, why frame it around Lebron James career?

something tells me if you go back one more year Kobe has more...seems like they went back just far enough were Kobe wouldnt have more?

[dynasty1978]

My thing is this...if were talking about Kobe Bryant hitting a game winner, why frame it around Lebron James career?

something tells me if you go back one more year Kobe has more...seems like they went back just far enough were Kobe wouldnt have more?

Kobe's been extremely clutch for his career, but some seasons were better than others.
I would say that he established his rep in from 2000-2002 and really cemented it vs. the Spurs in the 02 playoffs (huge 4th quarters..not referring to the '01 sweep). He was mediocre in the 2005 and parts of 2006. Needless to say, measuring from 2003 and forward really dismisses some of his early career performances.

[Doranku]

I'd really like to see LeBron's list of these 25 shots. Something doesn't seem right about that number.

[macpierce]

i define clutch as hitting game winning jumpshots ala the ultimate mark of greatness defined by michal jordan, if thats the case then kobe right now is in a league of his own for active players, especially this season

[macpierce]

I'd really like to see LeBron's list of these 25 shots. Something tells me a lot of these shots are when the game is already decided and the Cavs get the ball with 30 or 35 seconds left and can't entirely run down the clock and thus run a play.

no offense but i think lebron is the only player in the league who can win a game with a layup seriously, which is quite ridiculous

[Doranku]

no offense but i think lebron is the only player in the league who can win a game with a layup seriously, which is quite ridiculous

I edited my post, just realized the shots only counted if it was a 1 possession game.

[artex]

i'd still take a healthy kobe in the clutch over lebron any day

[jjayfive]

i would like to see a stat in the 5-10 seconds when the shot is more urgent.... lebron is filling up the box score, but i will take kobe in the last few minutes....

[kentatm]

I'd like to see the FGA as well. I bet they didn't show that for a reason.


NBA game winning shot stats (http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm)

[dr8ked]

NBA game winning shot stats (http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm)


:applause: :applause: are they basically saying lebron is more clutch than kobe ? :confusedshrug: . numbers don't lie :confusedshrug:

[phelix2000]

10 seconds or less.. how many Game Winners has Lebron made this year? ZERO !!!

How many GWs Lebron has missed? SIX... (Chicago 11/5, Den 11/8, Mem 12/8, Cha 1/3, Den 2/18, Cha 2/19)

[catch24]

are they basically saying lebron is more clutch than kobe ? numbers don't lie :confusedshrug:

Those stats haven't been updated since the 08-09 season, just an FYI.

[Lakers13]

Those stats haven't been updated since the 08-09 season, just an FYI.


and they start in 03-04, missing about half of Kobe's career.

[chazzy]

I remember when ESPN was covering his last game winning shot before this, they put this same statistic up.. and one of the female anchors said something like, "Great shot Kobe, still not as clutch as the King as shown here"
I was like... seriously? :oldlol:

[PistonsFan#21]

and they start in 03-04, missing about half of Kobe's career.

03-04 is Lebron's rookie year. We are comparing the numbers of clutch shots made througout the same time frame for both players and not Kobe's career to Lebron's career.

EDIT: If you wanna compare the 6 first years for both players im sure Lebron would still have the edge

[gmoney9]

I wonder if there is anyway to tell how many of those FGs in that stat were shots that clinched the lead/win for there teams?

[lefthook00]

Bron is clutch, but he doesn't have many game winners. He has maybe 4 or 5 I think.

[Lakers13]

03-04 is Lebron's rookie year. We are comparing the numbers of clutch shots made througout the same time frame for both players and not Kobe's career to Lebron's career.

EDIT: If you wanna compare the 6 first years for both players im sure Lebron would still have the edge

I don't care who has the edge, but why start in 02-03 when he has over 6 years of clutch shots missing? This is about Kobe, not LeBron.

[kentatm]

I don't care who has the edge, but why start in 02-03 when he has over 6 years of clutch shots missing? This is about Kobe, not LeBron.


No, it is about comparing the two players. Why would you compare years that LeBron was not in the NBA? Taking out Kobe's first few years should actually favor him BTW.

[gmoney9]

10 seconds or less.. how many Game Winners has Lebron made this year? ZERO !!!

How many GWs Lebron has missed? SIX... (Chicago 11/5, Den 11/8, Mem 12/8, Cha 1/3, Den 2/18, Cha 2/19)
the Denver game was on 1/8 and there wasn't a GW shot situation in it
the Memphis game was a 30 ft. shot he attempted
the Bobcats game he wasn't even in the game when w/ less than a min. left since they were getting beat

[Disaprine]

Kobe came into the league in 1996-1997. So really they are helping Lebron out on this one.
fixed it for you dipshit

[DKLaker]

I'm not sure if anyone saw last night's ESPN coverage of Kobe Bryant's game winner, but something stood out to me during the broadcast...

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6117/bspnkobe.jpg

Which leads me to ask... how many game winners does Lebron have in that space (if he's made 25 lead changing shots in the last 24 seconds over that time, a good number of those must be game winners), and why the random 2002-2003 marker.

The whole stat seems rather arbitrary and it's an interesting move by ESPN.


I can remember a bunch of these where Lebron and the Cavs Lost, such as he did when Melo hit the game winner a few games back.

Kobe has been more fortunate like when Mayo missed last night....and Ray Allen when the Lakers beat the Celtics.

Kobe is much more clutch than Lebron

[Lakers13]

For ESPN and the nut huggers its about comparing. Trying to hype a rivalry that aint really there with a star that is about at the end of his prime.

[dr8ked]

I can remember a bunch of these where Lebron and the Cavs Lost, such as he did when Melo hit the game winner a few games back.

Kobe has been more fortunate like when Mayo missed last night....and Ray Allen when the Lakers beat the Celtics.

Kobe is much more clutch than Lebron


bu bu but why do the numbers show different ?? or is this cooked up ??

[PistonsFan#21]

I don't care who has the edge, but why start in 02-03 when he has over 6 years of clutch shots missing? This is about Kobe, not LeBron.

Why does everything has to be about Kobe? Obviously it wasn't only about Kobe since Lebron's name was at the top of that list.

[Indian guy]

Bron is clutch, but he doesn't have many game winners. He has maybe 4 or 5 I think.

He has a lot more than that. 82games.com did a whole article on this last year. LeBron had the most # of GWs in the league since 03-04. Obviously, Kobe's 5 this season has put him on top by a couple, I believe. LeBron's had an uncharacteristically off year thus far in GW situations. He's something like 0-5 or 0-6.

Kobe's always been the undisputed best late-game player of his era IMO. By that I mean the final 4-5 mins. of close games, not necessarily the last shot only. In fact, prior to this season I would've absolutely picked LeBron over Kobe for last shot situations. The numbers were comfortably in his favor. Kobe's clearly edged ahead with this season though.

[NBASTATMAN]

Bron is clutch, but he doesn't have many game winners. He has maybe 4 or 5 I think.


Lebron has 4 game winners in the playoffs... I know he hit one vs Portland , one vs Golden state, another one I can't remember against who though...All regular season... So I would say at least 7 total.. But I remember reading somewhere that it was 10... But I am don't have any way of making sure that is a fact... In the playoffs Lebron hit two game winners vs Washington and a game winner vs Detroit as well as last years game winner vs Orlando...

[NBASTATMAN]

He has a lot more than that. 82games.com did a whole article on this last year. LeBron had the most # of GWs in the league since 03-04. Obviously, Kobe's 5 this season has put him on top by a couple, I believe. LeBron's had an uncharacteristically off year thus far in GW situations. He's something like 0-5 or 0-6.Kobe's always been the undisputed best late-game player of his era IMO. By that I mean the final 4-5 mins. of close games, not necessarily the last shot only. In fact, prior to this season I would've absolutely picked LeBron over Kobe for last shot situations. The numbers were comfortably in his favor. Kobe's clearly edged ahead with this season though.


He hasn't gotten good shots.. And he also relies on the three too much... Give Phil credit he gets kobe some good shots.. Kobe makes some incredible ones as well...

[Lakers13]

Why does everything has to be about Kobe? Obviously it wasn't only about Kobe since Lebron's name was at the top of that list.

Maybe because Kobe was the one who hit a GW shot last night, not LeBron. Both are clutch, but my problem was why start 02-03? But I know the answer now.

[gmoney9]

If anybody has the time or is bored, ESPN has all the game recaps from 02-03 season to now. You can look at which games were close and see what happened at the end

[Indian guy]

If anybody has the time or is bored, ESPN has all the game recaps from 02-03 season to now. You can look at which games were close and see what happened at the end

I don't understand why they are including 02-03. LeBron entered the league in 03-04. Why would they give Kobe an extra year in this comparison?

[PistonsFan#21]

Lebron has 4 game winners in the playoffs... I know he hit one vs Portland , one vs Golden state, another one I can't remember against who though...All regular season... So I would say at least 7 total.. But I remember reading somewhere that it was 10... But I am don't have any way of making sure that is a fact... In the playoffs Lebron hit two game winners vs Washington and a game winner vs Detroit as well as last years game winner vs Orlando...

Lebron had a game winner agaisnt the Nets, Portland, 2 agaisnt Washington, Detroit, Orlando, Hornets (here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Bl2MvTsHs), Golden State. Thats the one i can remember. Maybe he had some more

[Lakers13]

I don't understand why they are including 02-03. LeBron entered the league in 03-04. Why would they give Kobe an extra year in this comparison?


Make him look bad :oldlol:

[itsGameTime]

Why the final 24 seconds? They put it at 24 seconds to give Lebron an advantage of course. :confusedshrug:

Clearly if you count game winners as only buzzer beater game winners which are hell of a lot harder to make considering there is more pressure, Kobe already has 3 of those this season. To put that into perspective that's 1 more buzzer beating game winner than Lebron has over his entire career.

If a team had one last shot, I think most people would go with Kobe.

[dr8ked]

Make him look bad :oldlol:


why would they wanna do that ? :banghead:

[Skyscraper]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=2945741

We've all seen what happens when Kobe and Lebron go head to head with game winning shots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19eJdbOat8c&feature=related

[Lakers13]

why would they wanna do that ? :banghead:

To hype the King of course

[gmoney9]

I don't understand why they are including 02-03. LeBron entered the league in 03-04. Why would they give Kobe an extra year in this comparison?
I meant you can look on ESPN.com and read the recaps
I don't know why they used 02-03 as the starting point. Maybe they didn't have enough time to research external stats before that point because 02-03 is the latest that there stats go to on their website

[Birmingham1955]

anyone with eyes can tell you Kobe is more clutch than Bron. just look at last night.

[DukeDelonte13]

anyone with eyes can tell you Kobe is more clutch than Bron. just look at last night.


as I said before, I don't think they are necessarily going on game winning "shots" alone, but including layups and what not.

[PistonsFan#21]

To hype the King of course

Everyone knows the King is the best already...no need to hype him. Seems like every Kobe fan has an excuse and feels like the NBA is trying to diminish Kobe everytime. This stat was about clutch shots in the last 24 seconds (which is basically the last possession of a game if the shot clock is the same as game clock) of a game and not about the amount of buzzer beaters

[blizzardman]

They're comparing both kobe and lebron's stats for the same time frame. There is no advantage for either player. It says since 2002-2003, but doesn't include the 02-03 season since lebron wasn't in the league then. It's kinda surprising seeing vince carter up there in the rankings.

[dr8ked]

as I said before, I don't think they are necessarily going on game winning "shots" alone, but including layups and what not.

GW shot, be it a layup/dunk or 20 ft shot is still a GW. I don't see the difference.

[itsGameTime]

Everyone knows the King is the best already...no need to hype him. Seems like every Kobe fan has an excuse and feels like the NBA is trying to diminish Kobe everytime. This stat was about clutch shots in the last 24 seconds (which is basically the last possession of a game if the shot clock is the same as game clock) of a game and not about the amount of buzzer beaters

Yea and in clutch situations, how many times does a team actually have exactly 24 seconds left with the ball? :oldlol:

Most of the time, it'll come down to the final seconds of the game in which case give me Kobe, down 1 or down 2 for the buzzer beating game winner. Lebron isn't in his league in that category with only two buzzer beating game winners against Golden State and the Magic. ESPN trying to skew stats again. Game winners = game winning buzzer beaters, none of that final 24 second crap.

[Lakers13]

Everyone knows the King is the best already...no need to hype him. Seems like every Kobe fan has an excuse and feels like the NBA is trying to diminish Kobe everytime. This stat was about clutch shots in the last 24 seconds (which is basically the last possession of a game if the shot clock is the same as game clock) of a game and not about the amount of buzzer beaters

Yeah we all know King James The Chosen One is the best, but unless your ****ing blind, ESPN still hypes him up, even though his game speaks for itself.

[catch24]

GW shot, be it a layup/dunk or 20 ft shot is still a GW. I don't see the difference.

Except for the fact, ESPN had "FGM", not GW's.

[PistonsFan#21]

Yea and in clutch situations, how many times does a team actually have exactly 24 seconds left with the ball? :oldlol:

Most of the time, it'll come down to the final seconds of the game in which case give me Kobe, down 1 or down 2 for the buzzer beating game winner. Lebron isn't in his league in that category with only two buzzer beating game winners against Golden State and the Magic. ESPN trying to skew stats again. Game winners = game winning buzzer beaters, none of that final 24 second crap.

Thats where you're wrong...Game winners is the shot that makes you win the game. You could make that shot with 9 seconds left in the game and it would still be considered a game winner if the other team fails to tie or take the lead. Game winners doesnt equal game winning buzzer beaters. 2 different things. Most of the game winners arent at the buzzer anyway

[PistonsFan#21]

Yeah we all know King James The Chosen One is the best, but unless your ****ing blind, ESPN still hypes him up, even though his game speaks for itself.

They are hyping up/hyped up Kobe just as much and even said that he might be the best closer of all time. Whats your point?

[DukeDelonte13]

GW shot, be it a layup/dunk or 20 ft shot is still a GW. I don't see the difference.


You know what I meant. We are on the same page.

[Younggrease]

so Kobe gets a gamewinner and the relevant stat isnt how many he has hit in his career compared to all time greats but how many he has hit since lebron has been in the league?

hmm...and not gw b/c kobe has more...

[Lakers13]

They are hyping up/hyped up Kobe just as much and even said that he might be the best closer of all time. Whats your point?


Whats yours? My question was 02-03 reasoning, yours is apparently to troll and make an arguement out of it, move on.

[itsGameTime]

Thats where you're wrong...Game winners is the shot that makes you win the game. You could make that shot with 9 seconds left in the game and it would still be considered a game winner if the other team fails to tie or take the lead. Game winners doesnt equal game winning buzzer beaters. 2 different things. Most of the game winners arent at the buzzer anyway

Okay then why did they choose 24 seconds? Why not 1 minute or 2 minutes? Surely Kobe or Lebron can score with say 56 seconds remaining and then neither team scores the rest of the way. Should that not still be considered a game winner then? 24 seconds was chosen to skew the facts. If we limit it to only game winning buzzer beaters, it's Kobe and it's no contest.

[PistonsFan#21]

Whats yours? My question was 02-03 reasoning, yours is apparently to troll and make an arguement out of it, move on.

My point was: Why are you complaining about ESPN hyping up Lebron when they do the same with Kobe? Go back a page and read what you said. You were trying to argue that the media is trying to make Kobe look bad which makes no sense whatsoever

[catch24]

Okay then why did they choose 24 seconds? Why not 1 minute or 2 minutes? Surely Kobe or Lebron can score with say 56 seconds remaining and neither team scores the rest of the way. Should that not still be considered a game winner then? 24 seconds was chosen to skew the facts. If we limit it to only game winning buzzer beaters, it's Kobe and it's no contest.

The OP (ESPN snapshot) had "FGM" within 24 seconds or less. Now, that isn't necessarily game winning shots. So what I'm saying is, why not just use 82 games criteria and use the last 5 minutes of the game (since ESPN was pretty much showing who was "clutch"). If they aren't game winners, the figure is virtually useless, skewed as you say.

[Lakers13]

My point was: Why are you complaining about ESPN hyping up Lebron when they do the same with Kobe? Go back a page and read what you said. You were trying to argue that the media is trying to make Kobe look bad which makes no sense whatsoever

So starting in 02-03 and leaving out all his other GW's over his career makes him look better? They skewed it to that year for the comparison for a reason.

[PistonsFan#21]

Okay then why did they choose 24 seconds? Why not 1 minute or 2 minutes? Surely Kobe or Lebron can score with say 56 seconds remaining and neither team scores the rest of the way. Should that not still be considered a game winner then? 24 seconds was chosen to skew the facts. If we limit it to only game winning buzzer beaters, it's Kobe and it's no contest.

There is a stat like that on 82games.com that shows the most field goals made with 2 minutes left in a game and Lebron was leading that category also...They chose 24 seconds because thats supposed to be the last possession of a game. Its not like they chose a random number like 18 or 13 seconds left. And yes if you make a shot with 56 seconds left and no one scores after its still considered a game winner. We all know that Kobe has more buzzer beating game winners by the way but if you only count those he hasnt made more than 10 in his career

[PistonsFan#21]

So starting in 02-03 and leaving out all his other GW's over his career makes him look better? They skewed it to that year for the comparison for a reason.

Because it wouldnt be a fair comparison between a guy playing in his 7th year and another guy playing about twice as long. Its like comparing who scored the most points for a career between Kevin Durant and Iverson. If you want to make a comparison, you need to use the same time frame for both players

[itsGameTime]

There is a stat like that on 82games.com that shows the most field goals made with 2 minutes left in a game and Lebron was leading that category also...They chose 24 seconds because thats supposed to be the last possession of a game. Its not like they chose a random number like 18 or 13 seconds left. And yes if you make a shot with 56 seconds left and no one scores after its still considered a game winner. We all know that Kobe has more buzzer beating game winners by the way but if you only count those he hasnt made more than 10 in his career

And you know why else this ESPN stat was skewed? It mentions FGM, and not FTM. In which case Kobe shoots 10% better from the line as opposed to Lebron in such situations according to 82games.com.

[Birmingham1955]

ESPN= hype machine

[jstern]

Very impressive by Lebron, considering that he entered the league in the 2003-04 season, and also factoring in that the other players had many years more experience than him. He was just a rookie. (Remember Kobe was shooting air balls in the clutch his rookie season.) I'm starting to see that he kind of lived up to the hype that he had before he entered the league. He's definitely going to be top 10 all time.

[Jordan-esque]

Per ESPN's 2002-2003 Stat:

No. of Game Winners by KOBE since 02-03 season?
Answer = 19

No. of Game Winners by LEBRON since 02-03 season?
Answer = 12

Full List of each player's Game Winners: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165164

[Dave3]

Okay then why did they choose 24 seconds? Why not 1 minute or 2 minutes? Surely Kobe or Lebron can score with say 56 seconds remaining and then neither team scores the rest of the way. Should that not still be considered a game winner then? 24 seconds was chosen to skew the facts. If we limit it to only game winning buzzer beaters, it's Kobe and it's no contest.
Because when it's less than 24 seconds, you know you're not getting the ball back if you miss, so the pressure is that of a game winner. A shot with 56 seconds left you're guaranteed another chance if you mess up.

[Younggrease]

Because when it's less than 24 seconds, you know you're not getting the ball back if you miss, so the pressure is that of a game winner. A shot with 56 seconds left you're guaranteed another chance if you mess up.

but it also counts fg when your up by 3 with 24 seconds left...thats not the same pressure as a gamewinner

[Dave3]

but it also counts fg when your up by 3 with 24 seconds left...thats not the same pressure as a gamewinner
Agreed, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty even for both players there...
Edit: Wait, are you sure one posession also includes being up by 3 points?

[itsGameTime]

Because when it's less than 24 seconds, you know you're not getting the ball back if you miss, so the pressure is that of a game winner. A shot with 56 seconds left you're guaranteed another chance if you mess up.

Nope, with 24 seconds left, there's still a chance your team gets the offensive rebound, and even if they don't you can still foul the other team to get the ball back.

Buzzer beaters are the shots with the most pressure, since there's no way you're getting the ball back after you launch a buzzer beater.

[Younggrease]

Agreed, but I'm pretty sure it's pretty even for both players there...
Edit: Wait, are you sure one posession also includes being up by 3 points?

one possession game = 3 points ahead or behind

[lakerspng]

They're counting both shots to take the lead and win, as well as shots to seal a victory when your'e ahead. very transparent and disingenuous attempt by ESPN to find a way to put Lebron ahead of Kobe in a category that everyone assumes Kobe is better at, clutch play.

they're so lame

[MaxFly]

I don't understand why they are including 02-03. LeBron entered the league in 03-04. Why would they give Kobe an extra year in this comparison?

The real question should seem to center on why they forcing a comparison. Bryant was the player who hit the game winner last night. It would make more sense to discuss the game winners he's hit over his career and how that's compared to other players over his career, not to default to a comparison with Lebron by discounting a large portion of Bryant's career... and even then, if they're covering a game winner, why not talk about game winning shots in the comparison?

[sixer6ad]

I've been called a LBJ homer on here many times; however, last night's Kobe game-winner was just enough. It's been happening with regularity this year, so right now I am fully prepared to give him the last shot in the game. Even though every statistic ever created on this subject tells me not to, I just think Kobe is going to make that shot right now. LBJ may beat the ---- out of your body and make you look bad for 48, Kobe's hitting the game winner.

[Younggrease]

Im confused, how come after the Toronto game(or the ones before it and after the stat was shown) they didnt show the stat again? what changed? maybe that Kobe hit 2 since than and is now leading in anyway you slice the category(time period wise and amount wise)

[You Are A Fail]

Im confused, how come after the Toronto game(or the ones before it and after the stat was shown) they didnt show the stat again? what changed? maybe that Kobe hit 2 since than and is now leading in anyway you slice the category(time period wise and amount wise)

why are you so damn paranoid? :oldlol:

espn is not out to get kobe bryant. you can relax.

[DuMa]

Im confused, how come after the Toronto game(or the ones before it and after the stat was shown) they didnt show the stat again? what changed? maybe that Kobe hit 2 since than and is now leading in anyway you slice the category(time period wise and amount wise)

insecurity thy name is kobe stan

[GollyImSoGully]

insecurity thy name is kobe stan

D U M A = U M A D?

[indiefan24]

D U M A = U M A D?

hahaha

[Kingwillball]

To make Lebron look good, since he does not have a lot of game winners. No one in their right mind would say Lebron is more clutch than Kobe Bryant.


No....but most people would say he is Better !

[6thManOfTheYear]

kobe for the last shot

lebron for 48 minutes

:pimp: