Prime Tim Duncan vs. Prime Hakeem Olajuwon

[Lebron23]

Who was the better player?

http://sportsthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/tim_duncan281.jpg

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg

[v3DreJ80]

Olajuwon.

[iamgine]

About equal.

[Rekindled]

dream. he was better on offense and defense.

[U got Served]

Prime Hakeem Olajuwon.

[inclinerator]

hakeem is flashier but duncan is just as effective

[Rekindled]

hakeem is flashier but duncan is just as effective

duncan played in an era without big mans, hakeem competed against way tougher opponents.

[KG5MVP]

I remember Horry(or someone else that played with both of them) saying that Hakeem is a better player than Duncan.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's really not that bad of a comparison, but I'll go with Dream. If we're comparing each player in their peak seasons, Duncan was the better passer and rebounder while Dream was the better scorer and defender.

[6thManOfTheYear]

dream

[plowking]

duncan played in an era without big mans, hakeem competed against way tougher opponents.

Duncan played in an era with increased rules that were detrimental to post scoring.

That being said, I'd still take Hakeem at his best.

Duncan>Hakeem on the all time list though.

[Collie]

Prime for prime? Hakeem no question. But in alltime rankings, you can take either one.

[catzhernandez]

My 170 Fave Scrubs of All Time (http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165205)

[DCL]

hakeem was quicker and harder to defend. when i compare their games, i think hakeem could had pulled every move that duncan had, but i don't think duncan could do a lot of hakeem's stuff. hakeem was just crazy in speed and creativity. he was a former soccer player and it was evident with his agile body movements.

but in terms of impact, it's kinda a draw. duncan wasn't necessarily spectacular and didn't make your jaws drop, but he still got it done. two points is still two points even if it's boring. nobody claims hakeem was "textbook" because it wasn't. you just can't emulate his stuff if you don't got the physical gifts.

[Big#50]

Prime Duncan>Hakeem
Put Tim in his era and he gets 28/15/4.

[JohnnySic]

Hakeem was better at literally every facet of the game except bank jumpshots.

Hakeem >>> TD

[Nero Tulip]

Give it a little time and everybody will agree that TD was better. People tend to favour old players, all we see from them are highlights and we only keep memories of their best games. Hakeem was far from perfect though. He's one of my favourite players, but TD's better.

[Younggrease]

Hakeem was better at literally every facet of the game except bank jumpshots.

Hakeem >>> TD

hakeem was prob better at that two...for the majority of Tims career his bank jumpshot has been a low percentage shot. He is living off a rep he got from his first few seasons.

[redhonda76]

Prime Hakeem. Hakeem played against true elite centers with post game than Duncan, who against in the era of mostly hybrid centers with very few post games.
Imagine yourself going against Ewing, David, Zo, Deke, Shaq, Smits and Willis or
Shaq, and Yao?

Very different era.

Hakeem = better player
Duncan = better achievement

[DCL]

prime hakeem won league mvp, defensive player of the year and finals mvp in the same year. quite an achievement considering how stacked big man defenders were during that era. he also ranks top 10 all time in career blocks AND steals. he had a quadruple double in an nba game before. and he averaged a ridiculous 4.7 blocks for an entire season. hakeem was a swat machine.


duncan had drob for his first few years and then manu and parker. prime hakeem was pretty much a one man anchor dominating on both sides of the court. but if hakeem had both manu and parker, oooh man

[EricForman]

duncan played in an era without big mans, hakeem competed against way tougher opponents.

duncan went against prime Shaq and prime KG. yeah 90s had more quality bigs overall. but prime shaq is better than any of them and prime KG is comparable.

btw, if we are talking strict better player, then i guess hakeem. but no doubt duncan should be ranked higher on all all time list.

[Harison]

I remember Horry(or someone else that played with both of them) saying that Hakeem is a better player than Duncan.
Yes, Horry played with Shaq, Olajuwon and Duncan, all in their primes, and he said Hakeem was the best of them.

[Harison]

hakeem was quicker and harder to defend. when i compare their games, i think hakeem could had pulled every move that duncan had, but i don't think duncan could do a lot of hakeem's stuff. hakeem was just crazy in speed and creativity. he was a former soccer player and it was evident with his agile body movements.

Once Duncan said, if he would try to emulate Hakeems move, he would fall over :lol

[plowking]

Prime Hakeem. Hakeem played against true elite centers with post game than Duncan, who against in the era of mostly hybrid centers with very few post games.
Imagine yourself going against Ewing, David, Zo, Deke, Shaq, Smits and Willis or
Shaq, and Yao?

Very different era.

Hakeem = better player
Duncan = better achievement

Duncan managed to get titles in an era of prime Shaq. Shaq is better than all the centers you listed, so its not like any of them would have made it past Shaq in the playoffs. Duncan was able to, with a relatively weak supporting cast to what we've seen routinely in the finals.

I'm actually going to change my opinion and switch to Duncan.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Hakeem. It's a run-away race because of two main reasons.

1. Hakeem had significantly more blocks per game than Duncan did during there primes.

2. Hakeem played in an era dominated by future HOF big-men, and fouls were not called as weak as the current era.

[plowking]

Hakeem. It's a run-away race because of two main reasons.

1. Hakeem had significantly more blocks per game than Duncan did during there primes.

2. Hakeem played in an era dominated by future HOF big-men, and fouls were not called as weak as the current era.

Rules now make it harder for big men...

[RonySeikalyFTL]

Rules now make it harder for big men...

Yup. It's such a fallacy when people compare the big men of TD's era to Hakeem's era and conclude that Duncan had no competition.

I mean what's the probablility that so many of the greatest centers in NBA history all happened to be concentrated during Hakeem's generation? Doesn't it seem far more likely that the NBA's rules at the time had a little more to do with it? It's just common sense. Do you really think a guy like Patrick Ewing (no offense to Ewing, he was a great player) would be putting up 28.6 ppg and 4.0 blks in today's league? He'd be completely owning the league for god's sakes. Shit, guys like Rony Seikaly and Kevin Willis were pulling down 34 rebounds some nights during that era. The point is, you can't compare statistics between eras and make conclusions.

It's fine say that Hakeem played in an era with better big men, but by the same token you have to at least acknowledge that big men had inflated stats during Hakeem's era. The discrepancy isn't nearly as great as the numbers would have you believe.

[redhonda76]

Duncan managed to get titles in an era of prime Shaq. Shaq is better than all the centers you listed, so its not like any of them would have made it past Shaq in the playoffs. Duncan was able to, with a relatively weak supporting cast to what we've seen routinely in the finals.

I'm actually going to change my opinion and switch to Duncan.

That's true. But...

98-99 - Spurs over Lakers 4-0. Spurs Champion. David was defending Shaq more than half the time.
99-00 - Spurs lost first round.
00-01 - Lakers over Spurs 4-0
01-02 - Lakers over Spurs 4-1
02-03 - Spurs over Lakers 4-2. Spurs Champion. David and Rose was defending Shaq more than half the time. David retires.
03-04 - Lakers over Spurs 4-2
04-05 - Spurs Champion. Shaq was with Miami.

On 98-99 Spurs, David was at age 33 and already past his prime, was defending Shaq more than half the time. Did Duncan guard Shaq? Of course he did, but it was David's job. Two times the Spurs won was David defending Shaq and the third time they won, Shaq was with Miami. To say Duncan won against prime Shaq is very misleading. Yes he did got his titles against the era of prime Shaq, but in what ways?
The difference with Hakeem was, he had to face Ewing, David, and Shaq and it was his job to defending them.
That's why most people will say Prime Hakeem is better than Prime Duncan.

[Younggrease]

Yup. It's such a fallacy when people compare the big men of TD's era to Hakeem's era and conclude that Duncan had no competition.

I mean what's the probablility that so many of the greatest centers in NBA history all happened to be concentrated during Hakeem's generation? Doesn't it seem far more likely that the NBA's rules at the time had a little more to do with it? It's just common sense. Do you really think a guy like Patrick Ewing (no offense to Ewing, he was a great player) would be putting up 28.6 ppg and 4.0 blks in today's league? He'd be completely owning the league for god's sakes. Shit, guys like Rony Seikaly and Kevin Willis were pulling down 34 rebounds some nights during that era. The point is, you can't compare statistics between eras and make conclusions.

It's fine say that Hakeem played in an era with better big men, but by the same token you have to at least acknowledge that big men had inflated stats during Hakeem's era. The discrepancy isn't nearly as great as the numbers would have you believe.

Nope...maybe you could say that if there were guys in the NBA with similar skill sets to Hakeem, Ewing and DRob, but sadly they dont exist now.

[Big#50]

Hakeem. It's a run-away race because of two main reasons.

1. Hakeem had significantly more blocks per game than Duncan did during there primes.

2. Hakeem played in an era dominated by future HOF big-men, and fouls were not called as weak as the current era.
Exactly why Hakeem, DROB, Eaton, Bol averaged more than 4 blocks a game like it was easy.

[Big#50]

That's true. But...

98-99 - Spurs over Lakers 4-0. Spurs Champion. David was defending Shaq more than half the time.
99-00 - Spurs lost first round.
00-01 - Lakers over Spurs 4-0
01-02 - Lakers over Spurs 4-1
02-03 - Spurs over Lakers 4-2. Spurs Champion. David and Rose was defending Shaq more than half the time. David retires.
03-04 - Lakers over Spurs 4-2
04-05 - Spurs Champion. Shaq was with Miami.

On 98-99 Spurs, David was at age 33 and already past his prime, was defending Shaq more than half the time. Did Duncan guard Shaq? Of course he did, but it was David's job. Two times the Spurs won was David defending Shaq and the third time they won, Shaq was with Miami. To say Duncan won against prime Shaq is very misleading. Yes he did got his titles against the era of prime Shaq, but in what ways?
The difference with Hakeem was, he had to face Ewing, David, and Shaq and it was his job to defending them.
That's why most people will say Prime Hakeem is better than Prime Duncan.
Hate Is Strong In This One. Duncan is the only player who guarded Shaq one on one with some success. Shaq knows this and so should you. Yes, DROB guarded Shaq but Duncan did a good job on Shaq when he did guard him.

[Kellogs4toniee]

Yup. It's such a fallacy when people compare the big men of TD's era to Hakeem's era and conclude that Duncan had no competition.

I mean what's the probablility that so many of the greatest centers in NBA history all happened to be concentrated during Hakeem's generation? Doesn't it seem far more likely that the NBA's rules at the time had a little more to do with it? It's just common sense. Do you really think a guy like Patrick Ewing (no offense to Ewing, he was a great player) would be putting up 28.6 ppg and 4.0 blks in today's league? He'd be completely owning the league for god's sakes. Shit, guys like Rony Seikaly and Kevin Willis were pulling down 34 rebounds some nights during that era. The point is, you can't compare statistics between eras and make conclusions.

It's fine say that Hakeem played in an era with better big men, but by the same token you have to at least acknowledge that big men had inflated stats during Hakeem's era. The discrepancy isn't nearly as great as the numbers would have you believe.


I'm not talking about the stats. I'm talking about the competition Olajuwon had. Duncan's best rival was Shaq, and a few times, most noticeably when they beat the Lakers that year to win there second championship, Horry was the one who actually guarded Duncan.

It was always a big deal to look forward to watch Orlando vs. the Rockets, Knicks vs. the Rockets, Spurs vs. the Rockets. HoF centers vs. HoF centers.

Because of that I think Hakeem was better. Hakeem is arguably the most skillful center ever.

[Big#50]

I'm not talking about the stats. I'm talking about the competition Olajuwon had. Duncan's best rival was Shaq, and a few times, most noticeably when they beat the Lakers that year to win there second championship, Horry was the one who actually guarded Duncan.

It was always a big deal to look forward to watch Orlando vs. the Rockets, Knicks vs. the Rockets, Spurs vs. the Rockets. HoF centers vs. HoF centers.

Because of that I think Hakeem was better. Hakeem is arguably the most skillful center ever.
Shaq tried guarding Duncan in the 2003 series. Tried.

[Amare4lyfe]

Hate Is Strong In This One. Duncan is the only player who guarded Shaq one on one with some success. Shaq knows this and so should you. Yes, DROB guarded Shaq but Duncan did a good job on Shaq when he did guard him.

Retarded response. David and Rose was guarding Shaq mostly and Duncan was the help defender. Duncan can never guard Shaq one on one, no one can. Stop glorified Duncan. The truth is Pop would never use Duncan to guard Shaq unless they have no choice. Shaq knows Duncan can guard him well??? Since when he said that? Stop assuming because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Big#50]

Retarded response. David and Rose was guarding Shaq mostly and Duncan was the help defender. Duncan can never guard Shaq one on one, no one can. Stop glorified Duncan. The truth is Pop would never use Duncan to guard Shaq unless they have no choice. Shaq knows Duncan can guard him well??? Since when he said that? Stop assuming because you have no idea what you are talking about.
Watch the games. You're a ****ing idiot. I said he guards him well when he does. Even in Shaq's prime.

[RonySeikalyFTL]

I'm not talking about the stats. I'm talking about the competition Olajuwon had. Duncan's best rival was Shaq, and a few times, most noticeably when they beat the Lakers that year to win there second championship, Horry was the one who actually guarded Duncan.

It was always a big deal to look forward to watch Orlando vs. the Rockets, Knicks vs. the Rockets, Spurs vs. the Rockets. HoF centers vs. HoF centers.

Because of that I think Hakeem was better. Hakeem is arguably the most skillful center ever.

Thing is, would it have been such a big deal if instead of those guys averaging 26, 27, 28 ppg they were putting up 21,22 ppg? Look, it's not a coincidence that Dirk Nowitski has been the only big man to consistently average more than 23 ppg over the past several years. The game has changed, and teams aren't just dumping the ball into their big men and letting them work anymore. You can argue that they aren't doing that because the big men today aren't as good as they were in Hakeem's day, but wouldn't you expect there to be at least one prolific 7 foot scorer today? Teams adapt their offenses to the rules, and that's reflected in the statistics.

[Amare4lyfe]

Watch the games. You're a ****ing idiot. I said he guards him well when he does. Even in Shaq's prime.

I did watch the games, you ****ing retard. The point is Coach Pop would never had Duncan guard Shaq 1 on 1 unless he has to. Even when at times he did guard Shaq, it was only at short moments and there were weakside help til David and Rose comes in. Shaq still punished Duncan if the help came too late.


Duncan is the only player who guarded Shaq one on one with some success. Shaq knows this

Plus since when did Shaq ever said Duncan guarded him well??? It's your words, not his.

[redhonda76]

Retarded response. David and Rose was guarding Shaq mostly and Duncan was the help defender. Duncan can never guard Shaq one on one, no one can. Stop glorified Duncan. The truth is Pop would never use Duncan to guard Shaq unless they have no choice. Shaq knows Duncan can guard him well??? Since when he said that? Stop assuming because you have no idea what you are talking about.

:applause:

Great response. That was exactly what I was going to say but you beat me to it.

[craiye]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

None of the players from the 90s have had their legacy inflate after retiring quite like Hakeem. It's amazing what a few year away from the game and one dominant series over Robinson did for people's perception of his career.

I'm not saying Hakeem wasn't great. Just pointing out that he wasn't considered to be easily the best center of the 90s while playing. That "consensus" came after he hung 'em up.

[ThaRegul8r]

98-99 - Spurs over Lakers 4-0. Spurs Champion. David was defending Shaq more than half the time.
99-00 - Spurs lost first round.
00-01 - Lakers over Spurs 4-0
01-02 - Lakers over Spurs 4-1
02-03 - Spurs over Lakers 4-2. Spurs Champion. David and Rose was defending Shaq more than half the time. David retires.
03-04 - Lakers over Spurs 4-2
04-05 - Spurs Champion. Shaq was with Miami.

Duncan was injured and never played a second in the 2000 playoffs.

[Big#50]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

None of the players from the 90s have had their legacy inflate after retiring quite like Hakeem. It's amazing what a few year away from the game and one dominant series over Robinson did for people's perception of his career.

I'm not saying Hakeem wasn't great. Just pointing out that he wasn't considered to be easily the best center of the 90s while playing. That "consensus" came after he hung 'em up.
That series needs to be watched by everybody that rides his ****. People go by 2 highlight moves.

[DCL]

Retarded response. David and Rose was guarding Shaq mostly and Duncan was the help defender. Duncan can never guard Shaq one on one, no one can. Stop glorified Duncan. The truth is Pop would never use Duncan to guard Shaq unless they have no choice. Shaq knows Duncan can guard him well??? Since when he said that? Stop assuming because you have no idea what you are talking about.

:applause:

+1

[ShaqAttack3234]

I mean what's the probablility that so many of the greatest centers in NBA history all happened to be concentrated during Hakeem's generation? Doesn't it seem far more likely that the NBA's rules at the time had a little more to do with it? It's just common sense. Do you really think a guy like Patrick Ewing (no offense to Ewing, he was a great player) would be putting up 28.6 ppg and 4.0 blks in today's league? He'd be completely owning the league for god's sakes. Shit, guys like Rony Seikaly and Kevin Willis were pulling down 34 rebounds some nights during that era. The point is, you can't compare statistics between eras and make conclusions.

Go back and watch some footage of Ewing in 1990(pre-knee injury). He was very skiled, but also very athletic and one of the longest centers you'll ever see. His wingspan was freakish.

Dwight Howard was averaging something like 23/15/4 through his first 21 games of 2008-2009 before injuries slowed him a bit and lowered his minutes. Why couldn't Ewing put up similar numbers?

Tim Duncan just had two 26+ rebound games less than a month apart and he's passed his prime so I don't see your point about Willis and Seikaly each having 1 big night of 34 boards.

[Big#50]

Go back and watch some footage of Ewing in 1990(pre-knee injury). He was very skiled, but also very athletic and one of the longest centers you'll ever see. His wingspan was freakish.

Dwight Howard was averaging something like 23/15/4 through his first 21 games of 2008-2009 before injuries slowed him a bit and lowered his minutes. Why couldn't Ewing put up similar numbers?

Tim Duncan just had two 26+ rebound games less than a month apart and he's passed his prime so I don't see your point about Willis and Seikaly each having 1 big night of 34 boards.
Tim Duncan also went 10 for 38 or something ugly like that. That fool is a bum. The NBA now>NBA of before.

[Duncan21formvp]

Who was the better player?

http://sportsthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/tim_duncan281.jpg

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg

Duncan

[AirJordan23]

'93-96 Hakeem was better than peak Duncan. Really, there is not a single thing that Duncan does better than Olajuwon other than passing off the dribble and finding the open man while trapped/doubled. Duncan's decision making is also better considering he makes very few mistakes and knows what to do at the right time. Using all nba teams and all defensive teams shouldn't be the only way to judge players here since Olajuwon's competition was pretty strong in the late 80s and 90s. He had to go up against Moses (late 80s), Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Tarpley, KAJ, Zo, Deke, Kemp etc. Also, Duncan has never won against a team like the Suns (94-95) or the Jazz (94-95) with the exception of the 2003 Lakers. And the '03 Lakers were not as good as they were in the 3 peat due to various reasons such as fatigue, chemistry issues, lack of depth etc. Granted, Duncan's cast wasn't great in 2003. Olajuwon is also better on offense. He has a vast array of low post moves which are highly effective in getting you in foul trouble or juking you out of your shoes. Rebounding is about even. Both have about the same amount of range, have gotten clutch offensive and defensive rebounds and have a nice feel for the game. Also, Olajuwon being a lot more athletic helps him recover a lot faster on the defensive end while Duncan rarely committs mistakes so Duncan has a edge in decision making or fundamentals.

[veilside23]

to tim21for mvp of course obviously duncan will be your pick :D

people seem to be so high about shaq and be little the likes of ewing and the rest....

but shaq basically said when he was asked who is the hardest center to guard.. the dream right...

so that explains my answer... because if you take prime duncan over prime olajuwan you are basically taking prime duncan over prime shaq as well..


shaq and olajuwan in their primes are arguably top 5 all time..

[ConanRulesNBC]

Hakeem but Duncan isn't too far behind.

[juju151111]

Thing is, would it have been such a big deal if instead of those guys averaging 26, 27, 28 ppg they were putting up 21,22 ppg? Look, it's not a coincidence that Dirk Nowitski has been the only big man to consistently average more than 23 ppg over the past several years. The game has changed, and teams aren't just dumping the ball into their big men and letting them work anymore. You can argue that they aren't doing that because the big men today aren't as good as they were in Hakeem's day, but wouldn't you expect there to be at least one prolific 7 foot scorer today? Teams adapt their offenses to the rules, and that's reflected in the statistics.
Al jefferson was and he isn't even on Ewing level.

[NBASTATMAN]

Who was the better player?

http://sportsthoughts.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/tim_duncan281.jpg

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg


I really wish Hakeem could have played Duncan.. That actual difference is bigger than most think.. Hakeem was a guard in a 6FT 10 IN body.. Also the best defender I have ever seen..

[NBASTATMAN]

'93-96 Hakeem was better than peak Duncan. Really, there is not a single thing that Duncan does better than Olajuwon other than passing off the dribble and finding the open man while trapped/doubled. Duncan's decision making is also better considering he makes very few mistakes and knows what to do at the right time. Using all nba teams and all defensive teams shouldn't be the only way to judge players here since Olajuwon's competition was pretty strong in the late 80s and 90s. He had to go up against Moses (late 80s), Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Tarpley, KAJ, Zo, Deke, Kemp etc. Also, Duncan has never won against a team like the Suns (94-95) or the Jazz (94-95) with the exception of the 2003 Lakers. And the '03 Lakers were not as good as they were in the 3 peat due to various reasons such as fatigue, chemistry issues, lack of depth etc. Granted, Duncan's cast wasn't great in 2003. Olajuwon is also better on offense. He has a vast array of low post moves which are highly effective in getting you in foul trouble or juking you out of your shoes. Rebounding is about even. Both have about the same amount of range, have gotten clutch offensive and defensive rebounds and have a nice feel for the game. Also, Olajuwon being a lot more athletic helps him recover a lot faster on the defensive end while Duncan rarely committs mistakes so Duncan has a edge in decision making or fundamentals.


:applause:



The only thing I would add is that Duncan couldn't hit a big free throw to save his life... Plus Hakeem would guard A Dirk and Duncan really doesn't have the ftwork to do it....

[Andrei89]

'93-96 Hakeem was better than peak Duncan. Really, there is not a single thing that Duncan does better than Olajuwon other than passing off the dribble and finding the open man while trapped/doubled. Duncan's decision making is also better considering he makes very few mistakes and knows what to do at the right time. Using all nba teams and all defensive teams shouldn't be the only way to judge players here since Olajuwon's competition was pretty strong in the late 80s and 90s. He had to go up against Moses (late 80s), Ewing, Shaq, Robinson, Tarpley, KAJ, Zo, Deke, Kemp etc. Also, Duncan has never won against a team like the Suns (94-95) or the Jazz (94-95) with the exception of the 2003 Lakers. And the '03 Lakers were not as good as they were in the 3 peat due to various reasons such as fatigue, chemistry issues, lack of depth etc. Granted, Duncan's cast wasn't great in 2003. Olajuwon is also better on offense. He has a vast array of low post moves which are highly effective in getting you in foul trouble or juking you out of your shoes. Rebounding is about even. Both have about the same amount of range, have gotten clutch offensive and defensive rebounds and have a nice feel for the game. Also, Olajuwon being a lot more athletic helps him recover a lot faster on the defensive end while Duncan rarely committs mistakes so Duncan has a edge in decision making or fundamentals.


WoW good post

[Dizzle-2k7]

Hakeem was better in his prime.. but Id take Duncan's career because his prime has basically been since day 1 and hasnt really lost a step at all 10+ years later.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Hakeem was better in his prime.. but Id take Duncan's career because his prime has basically been since day 1 and hasnt really lost a step at all 10+ years later.

:rolleyes: You honestly think this is the same Tim Duncan that we saw in the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons? Duncan had a clear peak like most seasons, for the most part, he had been pretty close to that level before as well as a bit after, but Duncan has definitely declined from 2003, hell, he's declined pretty noticeably since 2007. He's still one of the best big men, though.

[Big#50]

:applause:



The only thing I would add is that Duncan couldn't hit a big free throw to save his life... Plus Hakeem would guard A Dirk and Duncan really doesn't have the ftwork to do it....
WOW. So, now Hakeem can guard Dirk. Shit is out of control. I'm starting to think people just watched a highlight of Hakeem.

[NBASTATMAN]

WOW. So, now Hakeem can guard Dirk. Shit is out of control. I'm starting to think people just watched a highlight of Hakeem.


My bad .. I guess Hakeem wouldn't be able to stop a guy devin george routinely stopped when he played for the lakers.. Maybe that is why Dallas signed devin.. It wasn't for his jumper.. Watch Hakeem's defense on Patrick ewing in the 1994 finals.. Dirk would score on Hakeem no doubt but Duncan doesn't have the lateral quickness or footwork to be able to guard Dirk.. Hakeem was special..He had the lateral quickness to guard Dirk.. Only guy to be top ten in steals and blocks.. If you didn't see him play than that is your problem... The only thing Duncan has on Hakeem is that Duncan is a bigger body.. Duncan is may be a better passer too.. But that is all.. Oh and the four titles to two..

[Big#50]

My bad .. I guess Hakeem wouldn't be able to stop a guy devin george routinely stopped when he played for the lakers.. Maybe that is why Dallas signed devin.. It wasn't for his jumper.. Watch Hakeem's defense on Patrick ewing in the 1994 finals.. Dirk would score on Hakeem no doubt but Duncan doesn't have the lateral quickness or footwork to be able to guard Dirk.. Hakeem was special..He had the lateral quickness to guard Dirk.. Only guy to be top ten in steals and blocks.. If you didn't see him play than that is your problem... The only thing Duncan has on Hakeem is that Duncan is a bigger body.. Duncan is may be a better passer too.. But that is all.. Oh and the four titles to two..
The Centers from the mid/late 80's and 90's were a joke. Yes, I know Ewing, DROB, Daughtery. For every good big man there was 3 scrubs. In those days if you were 7 ft tall you had a job. I don't remember George on Dirk but even if he did stop Dirk, it doesn't mean Hakeem could. I agree Duncan can't guard Dirk. I never said he could. I think Hakeem missed the playoffs twice. A player so special would at least make the playoffs. Hakeem is very overrated.

[Dizzle-2k7]

:rolleyes: You honestly think this is the same Tim Duncan that we saw in the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons? Duncan had a clear peak like most seasons, for the most part, he had been pretty close to that level before as well as a bit after, but Duncan has definitely declined from 2003, hell, he's declined pretty noticeably since 2007. He's still one of the best big men, though.

he's lost a step, of course.. but has he really lost "it" like other players did 5+ years after their prime? ..no.

Duncan has 4 rings without a superstar and put an entire CITY on his back.. fukk a franchise.. this dude but a STATE on his back. Dream .. eh. whateever.. helluva athlete (one in a billion really) but id take Duncan all day everday.

[EricForman]

he's lost a step, of course.. but has he really lost "it" like other players did 5+ years after their prime? ..no.

Duncan has 4 rings without a superstar and put an entire CITY on his back.. fukk a franchise.. this dude but a STATE on his back. Dream .. eh. whateever.. helluva athlete (one in a billion really) but id take Duncan all day everday.

i agree. duncan is generally underrated on ISH while hakeem is generally overrated. amazing considering duncan has double hakeem's rings and not really a much better supporting cast. and if you wanna argue level of competition, duncan went against prime shaq/kobe...

duncan is without a doubt top ten player of all time. hakeem is too, but ISH routinely ranks Hakeem over both Shaq and Duncan, which is laughable.

[Dbrog]

Duncan managed to get titles in an era of prime Shaq. Shaq is better than all the centers you listed, so its not like any of them would have made it past Shaq in the playoffs. Duncan was able to, with a relatively weak supporting cast to what we've seen routinely in the finals.

I'm actually going to change my opinion and switch to Duncan.

I agree with this. So many Duncan haters in this thread :banghead:

[D.J.]

Dream. He had more low post moves, was a better scorer, and a better overall defender. Rebounding is a washout, but Dream could guard multiple positions because of his agility. He was 6'10" and had the speed of some guards. Also remember that Dream went up against better players, regardless of the rules. He regularly went up against good defensive big men, such as Shaq, Mourning, Eaton, Willis, Ewing, and Willis.

One advantage Duncan does have is he is the smarter player. Not that Dream wasn't a smart player, but he relied more on instinct. Duncan has a higher ball IQ. By how much is debatable.

[Harison]

i agree. duncan is generally underrated on ISH while hakeem is generally overrated. amazing considering duncan has double hakeem's rings and not really a much better supporting cast. and if you wanna argue level of competition, duncan went against prime shaq/kobe...

duncan is without a doubt top ten player of all time. hakeem is too, but ISH routinely ranks Hakeem over both Shaq and Duncan, which is laughable.
How can you overrate player, when he is better than Duncan and Shaq? I wonder by what argument people could list them over Olajuwon? Stats and domination on both sides of the floor? Hakeem wins. Rings? Horry says hi :lol If you want to go subjective and base on someones opinion, same Horry said Hakeem was better than Duncan/Shaq, and he played with all of them. Not convinced? Check out Shaqs interview where he lists the best centers he played against - a hint, Hakeem was first.

I guess if some younger posters havent seen Hakeem in prime, its not that surprising they list current centers as better, like Shaq or Duncan. Same thing as Kobe fans list him above Jordan :confusedshrug:

[Big#50]

How can you overrate player, when he is better than Duncan and Shaq? I wonder by what argument people could list them over Olajuwon? Stats and domination on both sides of the floor? Hakeem wins. Rings? Horry says hi :lol If you want to go subjective and base on someones opinion, same Horry said Hakeem was better than Duncan/Shaq, and he played with all of them. Not convinced? Check out Shaqs interview where he lists the best centers he played against - a hint, Hakeem was first.

I guess if some younger posters havent seen Hakeem in prime, its not that surprising they list current centers as better, like Shaq or Duncan. Same thing as Kobe fans list him above Jordan :confusedshrug:
Hakeem most overrated player on ISH.

[ShaqAttack3234]

How can you overrate player, when he is better than Duncan and Shaq? I wonder by what argument people could list them over Olajuwon? Stats and domination on both sides of the floor? Hakeem wins. Rings? Horry says hi :lol If you want to go subjective and base on someones opinion, same Horry said Hakeem was better than Duncan/Shaq, and he played with all of them. Not convinced? Check out Shaqs interview where he lists the best centers he played against - a hint, Hakeem was first.

Shaq was definitely a better offensive player than Dream. Dream was fancier and had better footwork, but if we're comparing Dream's peak('93-'95) to Shaq's('00-'02) O'Neal was about 3 inches taller, 70 pounds heavier, had excellent footwork in his own right, scored more and did it more efficiently and he was a better passer. Shaq was also a better rebounder. By the way, statistically, O'Neal probably wins as well.

And Shaq says a lot of things, he said Dream was still better than him when they played in the '99 playoffs as well.

[Harison]

Shaq was definitely a better offensive player than Dream. Dream was fancier and had better footwork, but if we're comparing Dream's peak('93-'95) to Shaq's('00-'02) O'Neal was about 3 inches taller, 70 pounds heavier, had excellent footwork in his own right, scored more and did it more efficiently and he was a better passer. Shaq was also a better rebounder. By the way, statistically, O'Neal probably wins as well.

And Shaq says a lot of things, he said Dream was still better than him when they played in the '99 playoffs as well.
Says Shaq fan :confusedshrug: Shaq was better in the offense under the basket than Dream and most other centers, other than that - he isnt so good. Hakeem has more range, more moves and is clutch, and passing wise they are quite similar (though Shaq has a slight edge IMO).

Shaq elevated his game in the Playoffs, but not as much as Dream, thats why I wouldnt be surprised if most team would pick prime Hakeem over prime Shaq in the post-season too, and thats talking about offense-only, when we factor defense, its not that close.

[EricForman]

How can you overrate player, when he is better than Duncan and Shaq? I wonder by what argument people could list them over Olajuwon? Stats and domination on both sides of the floor? Hakeem wins. Rings? Horry says hi :lol If you want to go subjective and base on someones opinion, same Horry said Hakeem was better than Duncan/Shaq, and he played with all of them. Not convinced? Check out Shaqs interview where he lists the best centers he played against - a hint, Hakeem was first.

I guess if some younger posters havent seen Hakeem in prime, its not that surprising they list current centers as better, like Shaq or Duncan. Same thing as Kobe fans list him above Jordan :confusedshrug:


To compare people who rank Duncan and Shaq over Hakeem as the same thing as putting Kobe over Jordan is absurd. And you're a tool for your condescending tone. Duncan and Hakeem can go both ways, I'll concede that. But Shaq?

The fact that you pretend like Shaq and Duncan has no case to be ranked over Hakeem is a joke. Afterall, both guys have DOUBLE HAKEEM'S RINGS. we talking about 4 rings, 3 finals mvp for both guys vs hakeem's 2 rings and 2 finals mvp. for Shaq, you can argue he's always had great talent, but you can't say that for Duncan. Duncan's cast isn't a level above the guys/casts Hakeem has played with.

Seriously, yo. If you really think Hakeem should be ranked above Shaq and Duncan and pleaded your case in a humble way, then fine, but for you to make it sound like putting Shaq over Hakeem is completely ridiculous (like Kobe over Jordan).. that's just the stupidest thing I've heard on ISH today, and that's saying alot.

[Harison]

To compare people who rank Duncan and Shaq over Hakeem as the same thing as putting Kobe over Jordan is absurd. And you're a tool for your condescending tone. Duncan and Hakeem can go both ways, I'll concede that. But Shaq?

The fact that you pretend like Shaq and Duncan has no case to be ranked over Hakeem is a joke. Afterall, both guys have DOUBLE HAKEEM'S RINGS. we talking about 4 rings, 3 finals mvp for both guys vs hakeem's 2 rings and 2 finals mvp. for Shaq, you can argue he's always had great talent, but you can't say that for Duncan. Duncan's cast isn't a level above the guys/casts Hakeem has played with.

Seriously, yo. If you really think Hakeem should be ranked above Shaq and Duncan and pleaded your case in a humble way, then fine, but for you to make it sound like putting Shaq over Hakeem is completely ridiculous (like Kobe over Jordan).. that's just the stupidest thing I've heard on ISH today, and that's saying alot.
Your post has little to no basis, same as previous, PURELY your subjective opinion. Once again - rings or even MVPs isnt the be-all end-all, within full context it may be a great thing, or a minor one. Like Horry with more rings than any of those guys, or Nash with more regular season MVPs than Shaq :oldlol: Until you actually base your opinion on something more tangible, your posts will be what you blame others for :rolleyes:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Says Shaq fan :confusedshrug: Shaq was better in the offense under the basket than Dream and most other centers, other than that - he isnt so good. Hakeem has more range, more moves and is clutch, and passing wise they are quite similar (though Shaq has a slight edge IMO).

:oldlol: No, Shaq is the better scorer, period. He could score more and do it more efficiently. He proved that consistently. I don't care if Dream had more range or more moves. Shaq didn't need Dream's range and he had plenty of moves himself. He was able to consistently get to about 8-10 feet a way and either get closer with a move or hit a jumphook/one-handed jumpshot. He was definitely a better scorer than Dream. I don't care who had the prettier game.


Shaq elevated his game in the Playoffs, but not as much as Dream, thats why I wouldnt be surprised if most team would pick prime Hakeem over prime Shaq in the post-season too, and thats talking about offense-only, when we factor defense, its not that close.

Shaq had 3 finals series better than any of Dream's 3 finals and his 2000 and 2001 playoff runs were as good or better than any of Dream's playoff runs.

[Timmy D for MVP]

i agree. duncan is generally underrated on ISH while hakeem is generally overrated. amazing considering duncan has double hakeem's rings and not really a much better supporting cast. and if you wanna argue level of competition, duncan went against prime shaq/kobe...

duncan is without a doubt top ten player of all time. hakeem is too, but ISH routinely ranks Hakeem over both Shaq and Duncan, which is laughable.

Agreed. For me both Tim and Shaq are ahead of Hakeem.

If Tim Duncan gets the sudden boost the Hakeem did after he retires he'll be considered top 5 ever. That being said I DO believe that when he leaves is when people will really take notice of what he really did.

As for Primes I mean again comparing two different eras here is tough because of rule changes and such.

[Dizzle-2k7]

:oldlol: No, Shaq is the better scorer, period. He could score more and do it more efficiently. He proved that consistently. I don't care if Dream had more range or more moves. Shaq didn't need Dream's range and he had plenty of moves himself. He was able to consistently get to about 8-10 feet a way and either get closer with a move or hit a jumphook/one-handed jumpshot. He was definitely a better scorer than Dream. I don't care who had the prettier game.



Shaq had 3 finals series better than any of Dream's 3 finals and his 2000 and 2001 playoff runs were as good or better than any of Dream's playoff runs.


I find it HILARIOUS that you have no problem saying Dream>Duncan but when someone says Dream>Shaq you use the same arguments people use for Duncan>Shaq....

Duncan and Shaq are basically 1a1b in this era... so if anyone has Hakeem over one, he must be over the other...but he's not

Duncan/Shaq
Hakeem

[Horde of Temujin]

ill take prime olajuwon over any big man in the L ever

yep

i said it.

[guybrush806]

I would take Olajuwon over Duncan.

Olajuwon was a better all around playee then Duncan. Hakeem was just a defensive force. Rebounds, block shots, steals.

Just one example of Olajuwon was the 89-90 season. He played all 82 games that year. Scored 24.3 ppg. He blocked 4.59 per game. He had 2.12 steals per game, and had 14 rebounds per game. And had 2.9 assists That is just sick.

What duncan had that Hakeem never had...and this is a HUGE difference.
He had a consistent 2 players in Parker and Ginoblili.
They have now played with each other I think 8 years. That created great chemistry.
The spurs had a very strong 3 man team there. That makes all the differece in the world.

Hakeem went from 87-92 without a strong consistent player on his team. In 1986 he had his best team. Sampson was healthy, Loyd, Wiggins, Lucas were on the team. They beat the Lakers and then lost to Celtics in 6.
In 1987, Loyd, Wiggins, Lucas were kicked out of the league for using cocaine. Sampson hurt his knee and was done.

Hakeem wouldn't have another decent team until 1993 and 1994. Those were good teams but not great teams. Hakeem just became a force during those years.

Hakeem finally got drexler in 1995-1997. Having a talented second man makes all the difference in the world to a team. If you look at Drexler and Hakeems teams (uh cougars, Rockets) They played with each other for 5 years. In those 5 years they went to one college final four, college championship game, Nba championship game, Nba final four.

Had Olajuwon had a Drexler his entire career, Hakeem's teams would have been a lot better.
Had Olajuwon had a Parker and Ginoblii for 8 years, Hakeem I think would have had more rings.

I'm not saying Hakeem blows away Duncan. You are talking about two of the best players to ever play the game.

I'm just saying Duncan had better teams in his career.

If you give me the exact same players on the team, and then say I have a choice of Duncan or Hakeem.
I would always take Hakeem. His defense was just that good.

[Burgz]

hakeem

not to discredit Duncan, he's one of the greatest bigmen

but head to head, the dream would go to work on Duncan

[Harison]

hakeem

not to discredit Duncan, he's one of the greatest bigmen

but head to head, the dream would go to work on Duncan
Indeed, prime Robinson was as good as Duncan, yet Hakeem schooled DRob. There are very few big mans I would consider taking over prime Hakeem (Wilt and Kareem mainly).

[BarberSchool]

Prime Duncan>Hakeem
Put Tim in his era and he gets 28/15/4.Put Duncan in Hakeem's era and he would be a power forward averaging 19/11/2

Put Hakeem in Duncan's era and he would average better numbers than he did in his own era.

[Burgz]

ill take prime olajuwon over any big man in the L ever

yep

i said it.

this.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Indeed, prime Robinson was as good as Duncan, yet Hakeem schooled DRob. There are very few big mans I would consider taking over prime Hakeem (Wilt and Kareem mainly).

I'd take Duncan in 2002 or 2003 over any version of Robinson.

[Lebron23]

Give me Hakeem Olajuwon. No disrespect to TD. Hakeem was just a more dominant player. The Dream also won multiple Defensive Player of the Year Award in a era when there's plenty of great defensive players.

[rodman91]

Hakeem.

[millwad]

Hakeem, better offensive player and better defensive player.

[Dizzle-2k7]

duncan the better defender, rebounder, more clutch, better passer

oh hes also got 4 rings

[millwad]

duncan the better defender, rebounder, more clutch, better passer

oh hes also got 4 rings

Haha, Duncan better defender?
Hakeem during his prime was a 2-time Defensive Player of The Year? Duncan never won any DPOY's at all. More clutch? PROVE IT.

Talking about being clutch, Fatal9 pretty much said what should be said about how clutch Hakeem was during his prime in another thread so no reason to do it all over so I'll just copy it:


In his prime ('93-'95), he faced elimination 10 times and his record was 9-1 in those games (and the game he lost was in overtime after his team got screwed). This is what he did in those games:

31/21/7/3/3
23/17/9/3/2
37/17/5/3
25/10/7/3
40/8/3
33/10/4
31/16/3
30/8/10/5
29/11/4

[RRR3]

Hakeem, although Duncan may be slightly better career wise. It's close though.

[Kellogs4toniee]

You can't go wrong with either answer. In terms of overall impact, it really is a wash. I think many people will go with Hakeem simply because on film and paper it appears as though he was a clear cut better offensive player, but the simple fact is you have as good a chance at winning with either-or. In terms of overall effectiveness and as a basketball player, it's too close. With that acknowledged and in mind... I pick prime Hakeem over prime Duncan, purely based on the fact that I enjoy watching his game more.

[Dragonyeuw]

I can't look at one aspect of the game where Duncan is better than Hakeem. Hakeem's the more dominant and versatile scorer, equal rebounder, better shotblocker, better ball thief. Duncan, for the most part, always had a superior team around him than what Hakeem worked with. And Duncan's 2003 title where he had an aging Robinson, Stephen Jackson, young Tony Parker and rookie Ginobli, is easily matched by Hakeem's 94 run playing with Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell,Kenny Smith, Horry, and a rookie Sam Cassell.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Haha, Duncan better defender?
Hakeem during his prime was a 2-time Defensive Player of The Year? Duncan never won any DPOY's at all. More clutch? PROVE IT.

\
:facepalm

Its common knowledge among hoopheads that Duncan should have atleast 2-3 DPOYs ....he was robbed over and over during his prime..

As far as clutch.. Duncan has hit NUMEROUS game winners, jumpers, hooks, THREES, assists, blocks, etc..

also.. 4 rings

[Dizzle-2k7]

And scoring clearly clearly goes to Hakeem. So both a better scorer and a defender.

so blocks = great defender? :oldlol:

One of the great things about Duncan is he doesnt go for blocks.. he stays on his feet and forces you into a bad shot.

You really think Duncan is falling for all those uppity/pumpfakes that Hakeem does? No way. Duncan would make Hakeem look very human.

Duncan is the greatest defender of all time. His ability to shutdown his competition while being an INCREDIBLE help defender has cemented this title.

4 rings

[NugzHeat3]

1993-95 Hakeem is pretty easily a better player than Duncan.

[Dizzle-2k7]

1993-95 Hakeem is pretty easily a better player than Duncan.

easily.

:roll:

tim duncan aka the greatest defender anchor of all time aka 4 rings aka beat prime shaq/kobe ...

4 ring as the ANCHOR is easily better than 2 rings as the anchor

[NugzHeat3]

easily.

:roll:

tim duncan aka the greatest defender anchor of all time aka 4 rings aka beat prime shaq/kobe ...

4 ring as the ANCHOR is easily better than 2 rings as the anchor

Tim Duncan is a better defender than Russell? That's news to me.

Who said we're comparing championships? I thought it was about their primes.

[Dizzle-2k7]

Tim Duncan is a better defender than Russell? That's news to me.

Who said we're comparing championships? I thought it was about their primes.

prime tim duncan is the greatest defender of all time

[rodman91]

prime tim duncan is the greatest defender of all time

:facepalm

[millwad]

so blocks = great defender? :oldlol:

One of the great things about Duncan is he doesnt go for blocks.. he stays on his feet and forces you into a bad shot.

You really think Duncan is falling for all those uppity/pumpfakes that Hakeem does? No way. Duncan would make Hakeem look very human.

Duncan is the greatest defender of all time. His ability to shutdown his competition while being an INCREDIBLE help defender has cemented this title.

4 rings

No, jackass, it's not only about blocks.
It's about shutting people down a la what Hakeem did against Ewing in the finals of '94 and Robinson in the playoffs of '95. What player of great caliber did Duncan shut down to that extent that you'd call him the greatest defender of all-time?:facepalm

And still it's not only about blocks, even though Duncan is no where close Hakeem when it comes to blocks. Defense is also about steals and take this, Hakeem as a center is top 8 of all-time when it comes to steals, he is the only center in the top 10, he is even the only center top 47. David Robinson is the 2nd highest center on that list and he is on place 48..

Tim Duncan, haha, he is on place 247 all-time when it comes to steals.

And buhu, yadi yadi, Duncan got "robbed"..:facepalm

Hakeem is definitely a better defender, he is also a better scorer..

[dyna]

Hakeem

[ThaRegul8r]

prime tim duncan is the greatest defender of all time

No, he isn't. I'm a Duncan fan, but I am capable of being objective about players I happen to like, unlike most people it seems.

[ukplayer4]

Prime Duncan>Hakeem
Put Tim in his era and he gets 28/15/4.



era? their primes were about 5 years apart. :roll:

[Big#50]

era? their primes were about 5 years apart. :roll:
Different rules. Different pace. Players are better now. Different systems.

[eliteballer]

Hakeem's better but its not some gargantuan gap.

[Big#50]

Hakeem's better but its not some gargantuan gap.
Tim is better by not by a lot.

[ThaRegul8r]

Tim is better by not by a lot.

Both players are/were among my favorites, so I have no agenda in trying to promote my favorite player over a non-favorite player. So objectively speaking, Duncan never does anything like this:


Akeem Olajuwon, an immensely talented center in only his second pro season, had become the leader as the Rockets defeated the Los Angeles Lakers in three of their first four games. Yet, Olajuwon was in the dressing room, ejected after a fracas with Mitch Kupchak, when the fifth game of the Western Conference finals was decided.

I can't imagine Duncan ever doing anything stupid to get himself ejected from an important playoff game in which his team is attempting to eliminate the defending champions and thus needs him on the floor. That's one of the differences between the two.

[NugzHeat3]

Both players are/were among my favorites, so I have no agenda in trying to promote my favorite player over a non-favorite player. So objectively speaking, Duncan never does anything like this:



I can't imagine Duncan ever doing anything stupid to get himself ejected from an important playoff game in which his team is attempting to eliminate the defending champions and thus needs him on the floor. That's one of the differences between the two.
If you were being objective, you would know those two played in a totally different time period concerning the physicality, trash talking and enforcement allowed. Especially the year this took place in.

There were a hell of a lot more brawls in the 80s as opposed to the 00s. The league was already trying to cut down the fights, taunting ect in the early 90s to improve its image.

Your fact is technically correct but there's no way to prove Duncan wouldn't do such a thing in that situation.

Who is to say Duncan doesn't retaliate where he's consistently being shoved around? I say this despite knowing Duncan is generally a calm and smart individual. Duncan grew up as a player in a time where brawls and such was being looked down upon.

Also, 1986 Hakeem is not prime Hakeem so I'm not sure if that matters anyway.

The same game you posted, Sampson was about to get in a fight with Maurice Lucas (another enforcer) and Hakeem was the one who got in between and held him back. I say Duncan wouldn't do such a thing and Ralph would end up getting ejected. No way to really prove it.

[eliteballer]

Duncan was never quite as dominant as Hakeem was at his peak, but he's not waay off. Hakeem was just all over the floor, literally doing anything his squad needed. His prime is right there with Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe.

I'm basing it basically on how Duncan was percieved when he and Shaq(Who's prime is definitely on the same plane or higher than Hakeem) when they were both priming. It's really that simple.

[King24]

lol @ throwing Kobe in there.

[rmt]

Duncan was never quite as dominant as Hakeem was at his peak, but he's not waay off. Hakeem was just all over the floor, literally doing anything his squad needed. His prime is right there with Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe.

I'm basing it basically on how Duncan was percieved when he and Shaq(Who's prime is definitely on the same plane or higher than Hakeem) when they were both priming. It's really that simple.

I would counter that Duncan has also done whatever his squad needed throughout his career.

If Duncan's prime doesn't belong with that list, then Kobe's doesn't either. 2003 Duncan > any Kobe.

If you're basing it on how Duncan was perceived, then lots more players were perceived as better (more memorable). Duncan was the type of player where you didn't notice the type of game he was having, you just look up at the end of the night and he has his 20/10 and you think that that's the most quiet 20/10 you've ever seen. And he did this basically his entire career.

[Smoke117]

prime tim duncan is the greatest defender of all time

lol Tim Duncan isn't even the greatest defensive player that has played for the spurs. You fail.

[Big#50]

Duncan was never quite as dominant as Hakeem was at his peak, but he's not waay off. Hakeem was just all over the floor, literally doing anything his squad needed. His prime is right there with Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Kobe.

I'm basing it basically on how Duncan was percieved when he and Shaq(Who's prime is definitely on the same plane or higher than Hakeem) when they were both priming. It's really that simple.
You must have missed the 03 season.

[Big#50]

lol Tim Duncan isn't even the greatest defensive player that has played for the spurs. You fail.
He was a better defender than DROB.

[Round Mound]

Prime Hakeem and its not even close :facepalm

[bizil]

I gotta go with the Dream even though Duncan is close in my opinion. But the thing is, Hakeem is as good or better than Duncan at everything. But Duncan came into the L a polished product and was a better player than Hakeem was early into his career. But the evolution of Hakeem was beautiful to watch. And peak Hakeem had a package of skill, athletic ability, and dominance that was the greatest of all time in my book. I'm not saying he's better than a prime Kareem, prime Shaq, prime Wilt, in a GOAT sense (which includes the accolades, numbers, etc). But when it came to being a true total package at center, I feel prime Hakeem is the best of all time. Walton in the all around sense was great too. Walton and Duncan remind me of each other a lot. But Hakeem in my book was more dominant and was a freak athlete or the very next level right under it. But I disagree with those who say Duncan wasn't close to Hakeem. I feel they are so close that if someone said Duncan I wouldnt argue with it. But in GOAT terms, Duncan ranks higher than Hakeem. Peak value wise, give me the Dream.

[Big#50]

I gotta go with the Dream even though Duncan is close in my opinion. But the thing is, Hakeem is as good or better than Duncan at everything. But Duncan came into the L a polished product and was a better player than Hakeem was early into his career. But the evolution of Hakeem was beautiful to watch. And peak Hakeem had a package of skill, athletic ability, and dominance that was the greatest of all time in my book. I'm not saying he's better than a prime Kareem, prime Shaq, prime Wilt, in a GOAT sense (which includes the accolades, numbers, etc). But when it came to being a true total package at center, I feel prime Hakeem is the best of all time. Walton in the all around sense was great too. Walton and Duncan remind me of each other a lot. But Hakeem in my book was more dominant and was a freak athlete or the very next level right under it. But I disagree with those who say Duncan wasn't close to Hakeem. I feel they are so close that if someone said Duncan I wouldnt argue with it. But in GOAT terms, Duncan ranks higher than Hakeem. Peak value wise, give me the Dream.
Excellent post. This is how one proves their point without dogging another player. Something I do at times.

[Duncan21formvp]

Duncan is better than Hakeem. Did more for the Spurs than Hakeem did for the Rockets.

[Big#50]

Prime Hakeem and its not even close :facepalm
Explain why?

[Jacks3]

If Duncan's prime doesn't belong with that list, then Kobe's doesn't either. 2003 Duncan > any Kobe.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[D.J.]

Duncan is better than Hakeem. Did more for the Spurs than Hakeem did for the Rockets.


Scoring wise, they're not far off. Hakeem had a tad bit more range. Hakeem was better defensively and also had more moves. The difference in their supporting casts is Duncan's cast knew their roles and didn't try to outshine anyone. Hakeem had teammates(mainly Vernon Maxwell) that thought they were 25 PPG scorers.

[Odinn]

I am sick of the "Hakeem went up against harder competition".

If we say Hakeem's prime was 89-96 and Duncan's prime was 99-08, in those period;

Hakeem had 3 first-round exits, 1 time missed the playoffs.
Notable centers(players) who played against Hakeem;
P. Ewing 1 time
S. O'Neal 1 time
D. Robinson 1 time
S. Kemp 2 times

Duncan had no first-round exit - at least 2nd round (also 58W per season), never missed the playoffs.
Notable PFs(players) who played against Duncan;
S. O'Neal 5 times
A. Stoudemire 4 times
D. Nowitzki 3 times
K. Martin 3 times
K. Garnett 2 times
P. Gasol 2 times
R. Wallace 2 times

Enough.

If you gonna year-by-year, I think Hakeem's 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons have a legit case to be ranked over Duncan's best year, 2002-03. But acting like "Hakeem and it's not even close" or "Hakeem went up against harder competition" just not realistic.

[bizil]

I am sick of the "Hakeem went up against harder competition".

If we say Hakeem's prime was 89-96 and Duncan's prime was 99-08, in those period;

Hakeem had 3 first-round exits, 1 time missed the playoffs.
Notable centers(players) who played against Hakeem;
P. Ewing 1 time
S. O'Neal 1 time
D. Robinson 1 time
S. Kemp 2 times

Duncan had no first-round exit - at least 2nd round (also 58W per season), never missed the playoffs.
Notable PFs(players) who played against Duncan;
S. O'Neal 5 times
A. Stoudemire 4 times
D. Nowitzki 3 times
K. Martin 3 times
K. Garnett 2 times
P. Gasol 2 times
R. Wallace 2 times

Enough.

If you gonna year-by-year, I think Hakeem's 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons have a legit case to be ranked over Duncan's best year, 2002-03. But acting like "Hakeem and it's not even close" or "Hakeem went up against harder competition" just not realistic.

U bring up a great point. Hakeem played in the last great era for centers. From the time he came into the L all the way till his best days were gone, the center position had great depth. But Duncan played in the greatest eras of power forwards of all time in my book. So they both played against stacked competition in their primes.

[millwad]

I am sick of the "Hakeem went up against harder competition".

If we say Hakeem's prime was 89-96 and Duncan's prime was 99-08, in those period;

Hakeem had 3 first-round exits, 1 time missed the playoffs.
Notable centers(players) who played against Hakeem;
P. Ewing 1 time
S. O'Neal 2 times
D. Robinson 1 time
S. Kemp 3 times (although he was a PF, maybe you wanted to justify your Shaq pick but if you wanna put in PF's then put in Malone and Barkley)
R. Parish 1 time
K. Abdul-Jabbar 1 time
V. Divac 3 times


Duncan had no first-round exit - at least 2nd round (also 58W per season), never missed the playoffs.
Notable PFs(players) who played against Duncan;
S. O'Neal 5 times
A. Stoudemire 4 times
D. Nowitzki 3 times
K. Martin 3 times
K. Garnett 2 times
P. Gasol 2 times
R. Wallace 2 times

Enough.

If you gonna year-by-year, I think Hakeem's 1993-94 and 1994-95 seasons have a legit case to be ranked over Duncan's best year, 2002-03. But acting like "Hakeem and it's not even close" or "Hakeem went up against harder competition" just not realistic.

Fixed.
And you wanna talk team record, put Duncan in late 80's on some of Hakeem's teams and you'd see he wouldn't have made any difference at all. And having to share the spotlight with Karl Malone and Barkley would have done his legacy some harm as well. Hakeem was the better of them too, both defensively and on offense.

And how stupid are you? 89-96? Good job, dude, you just removed one epic playoff run performance Hakeem had when he lead his '86 Rockets to the finals beating the showtime Lakers on the way and absolutely destroying the Lakers bigs (Kareem included).

[Odinn]

Fixed.
And you wanna talk team record, put Duncan in late 80's on some of Hakeem's teams and you'd see he wouldn't have made any difference at all. And having to share the spotlight with Karl Malone and Barkley would have done his legacy some harm as well. Hakeem was the better of them too, both defensively and on offense.

And how stupid are you? 89-96? Good job, dude, you just removed one epic playoff run performance Hakeem had when he lead his '86 Rockets to the finals beating the showtime Lakers on the way and absolutely destroying the Lakers bigs (39 year-old Kareem included).
Hakeem led his team to the finals in '86 but he was not in his prime. That's it. You consider 1994-95 Shaq as Prime Shaq?

Also just look out Duncan's 2001-02-03-04 supporting casts and watch the games. "Duncan always had great supporting cast" is another argument that's not true.

And your fixed version still can not match to Duncan's opponents.

[millwad]

Hakeem led his team to the finals in '86 but he was not in his prime. That's it. You consider 1994-95 Shaq as Prime Shaq?

Also just look out Duncan's 2001-02-03-04 supporting casts and watch the games. "Duncan always had great supporting cast" is another argument that's not true.

And your fixed version still can not match to Duncan's opponents.

It sure thing can, and you put Shaq in there and we all know DUNCAN is a PF and Shaq is a center.

And I don't claim Hakeem was in his prime in '86 but if you're picking year it's pure stupidity from your side to first choose 10 Duncan years vs 7 Hakeem years . If you'd actually knew anything about Hakeem you wouldn't have called his "prime" from 89-96 when Hakeem from 91-92 had crappy years while he at the beginning of his career had 4 seasons where he clearly performed better than the 91-92 seasons.

And no, Shaq (if you even wanna count him), Dirk, Stoudemire, Garnett, Gasol and Wallace ain't better than Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq..

[Odinn]

It sure thing can, and you put Shaq in there and we all know DUNCAN is a PF and Shaq is a center.

And I don't claim Hakeem was in his prime in '86 but if you're picking year it's pure stupidity from your side to first choose 10 Duncan years vs 7 Hakeem years . If you'd actually knew anything about Hakeem you wouldn't have called his "prime" from 89-96 when Hakeem from 91-92 had crappy years while he at the beginning of his career had 4 seasons where he clearly performed better than the 91-92 seasons.

And no, Shaq (if you even wanna count him), Dirk, Stoudemire, Garnett, Gasol and Wallace ain't better than Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq..
Again; you are talking about only positions, not games. Duncan spent serious minutes aganist Shaq, both ends of floor. How many minutes Hakeem spent on Barkley or K. Malone?..

Duncan's 2005-06 regular season perfomance worse than his rookie season. Shaq's 1998-99 regular season performance worse than his sophomore year. So? Just coz of 1991-92 you're gonna split Hakeem's prime to 2 parts?

And yes. Duncan's competition > Hakeem's competition.
I forgot to add 2008 playoffs for Shaq. Shaq's team and Duncan's team met 6 times in the playoffs.

S. O'Neal 6 times (5 of them against prime Shaq, and TD guarded&was guarded by Shaq in 3 out of 6 times)
A. Stoudemire 4 times (3 of them against prime Amar'e)
D. Nowitzki 3 times (3 of them against prime Dirk)
K. Martin 3 times (2 of them against prime K-Mart)
K. Garnett 2 times (2 of them against prime KG)
P. Gasol 2 times (1 of them against prime Gasol)
R. Wallace 2 times (1 of them against prime Sheed)

>>>

P. Ewing 1 time (prime)
S. O'Neal 2 times (1 of them against prime Shaq)
D. Robinson 1 time (prime)
S. Kemp 3 times (3 of them against prime Kemp)
R. Parish 1 time (prime)
K. Abdul-Jabbar 1 time (39! year old Kareem)
V. Divac 3 times (1 of them against prime Divac)


Your arguments just pathetic...:facepalm

[millwad]

Again; you are talking about only positions, not games. Duncan spent serious minutes aganist Shaq, both ends of floor. How many minutes Hakeem spent on Barkley or K. Malone?..

Duncan's 2005-06 regular season perfomance worse than his rookie season. Shaq's 1998-99 regular season performance worse than his sophomore year. So? Just coz of 1991-92 you're gonna split Hakeem's prime to 2 parts?

And yes. Duncan's competition > Hakeem's competition.
I forgot to add 2008 playoffs for Shaq. Shaq's team and Duncan's team met 6 times in the playoffs.

S. O'Neal 6 times (5 of them against prime Shaq, and TD guarded&was guarded by Shaq in 3 out of 6 times)
A. Stoudemire 4 times (3 of them against prime Amar'e)
D. Nowitzki 3 times (3 of them against prime Dirk)
K. Martin 3 times (2 of them against prime K-Mart)
K. Garnett 2 times (2 of them against prime KG)
P. Gasol 2 times (1 of them against prime Gasol)
R. Wallace 2 times (1 of them against prime Sheed)

>>>

P. Ewing 1 time (prime)
S. O'Neal 2 times (1 of them against prime Shaq)
D. Robinson 1 time (prime)
S. Kemp 3 times (3 of them against prime Kemp)
R. Parish 1 time (prime)
K. Abdul-Jabbar 1 time (39! year old Kareem)
V. Divac 3 times (1 of them against prime Divac)


Your arguments just pathetic...:facepalm

Haha, you're the one being pathetic.
First of all, "serious" minutes is still not equal to guarding him during whole series and when Drob was around he took care of the dirty business.

And you do realize that "39 year old Kareem" averaged 23 points per game the same season and also was on 5th place on the MVP ranking, you dick. Stoudemire has never been top 5 on the MVP ranking, Gasol has never even been on the MVP ranking list, Wallace was at best at 14th place and Kenyon Martin is a one time all-star and he's never been on the list either.

Haha, so what's this? The "39 yeard old Kareem" who by the way was 38 obviously was a greater player at that age than 4 of the players you mentioned as Duncan's competition.. And we all know that Kareem, Parish, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq are better than the players you just mentioned.

[Big#50]

Tim Duncan would average 30/14/4/4 in the 80's. Come on, the defenses sucked back then. Big men were ****ing slow and clumsy. Only a few select bigs were any good.

[millwad]

Tim Duncan would average 30/14/4/4 in the 80's. Come on, the defenses sucked back then. Big men were ****ing slow and clumsy. Only a few select bigs were any good.

Big men in the 80's were far superior compared to the one's in Duncan's era. We had guys like Kareem, Moses, Parish, Hakeem, Ewing, Jack Sikma, Artis Gilmore, Laimbeer, Ralph Sampson, Daugherty, Eaton, Duckworth.

And forwards like Mchale, Karl Malone, Barkley, Nance, Bird, Chambers, Xavier McDaniel, Rodman etc..

Yeah, these "****ing slow and clumsy" guys would abuse the big men of Duncan's era.

[Dragonyeuw]

I always find the era argument interesting, especially as far as comparing players from the 80's/90's to today. 39 year old Karl Malone was averaging 20 and 8 in 2003, 40 year old Stockton was starting on the Jazz putting up 11 and 8 in 28 minutes a night the same year. They're called 'all-time' for a reason, folks.

[Gotterdammerung]

Posted this a while ago:


Big Fundamental vs the Dream

Tim Duncan & Hakeem Olajuwon is a good comparison, much better than Hakeem and the vastly overrated Moses.

Both of them have the same stature (Hakeem at 7 ft, 255 lbs, Duncan at 7 ft, 260 lbs), but their body types were different. Hakeem had better defined musculature, but Duncan, while less muscled, had a broader backside. This means Duncan could establish and maintain better pivotal position than Hakeem. Thus, as a low-post player, Duncan could induce more fouls.

No question, Hakeem was much faster, quicker, and that gave him larger range on defense (i.e., the better shotblocker) and which involved him in the Rockets' fast-break. Hakeem was the better athlete without any question.

But Duncan is the more fundamentally sound player: his footwork was superior and he had a larger repertoire of moves in the low post. Duncan's also a more accurate passer, and set better screens.

Hakeem was the better mid-range jump shooter, and his unstoppable, turnaround fallaway jumper was more accurate than Duncan's 17 foot bank shots. Hakeem was also better at the charity line.

Although Hakeem was much faster off his feet, Duncan had the stronger hands. On top of having a bigger butt to maneuver himself into primetime real estate for rebounding, Duncan is slightly the superior rebounder.

Because Hakeem faced up more often, and had far more shake & bake moves, he turned the ball more often than Duncan did.

What's great about both is that they were team-centered yet fierce competitors who won. Who's better? It's a photofinish.

Hakeem!

[chips93]

I gotta go with the Dream even though Duncan is close in my opinion. But the thing is, Hakeem is as good or better than Duncan at everything. But Duncan came into the L a polished product and was a better player than Hakeem was early into his career. But the evolution of Hakeem was beautiful to watch. And peak Hakeem had a package of skill, athletic ability, and dominance that was the greatest of all time in my book. I'm not saying he's better than a prime Kareem, prime Shaq, prime Wilt, in a GOAT sense (which includes the accolades, numbers, etc). But when it came to being a true total package at center, I feel prime Hakeem is the best of all time. Walton in the all around sense was great too. Walton and Duncan remind me of each other a lot. But Hakeem in my book was more dominant and was a freak athlete or the very next level right under it. But I disagree with those who say Duncan wasn't close to Hakeem. I feel they are so close that if someone said Duncan I wouldnt argue with it. But in GOAT terms, Duncan ranks higher than Hakeem. Peak value wise, give me the Dream.

i agree except for one thing, duncan is a much better passer/facilitator than hakeem, by a lot imo.

[NugzHeat3]

Posted this a while ago:
Are you sure this is your take or do you mean to say you just paraphrased Charley Rosen's take on the subject?
[QUOTE="Charley Rosen"]They were of comparable stature

[Round Mound]

The only things i see that Duncan was Better than Hakeem was Ball Handling and "Maybe" Passing.

Rebounding? NAH look at Prime Hakeem Lead the League in Rebounding Twice

Scoring Skills. Hakeem was smoother, more agil, superior foot work, fadeways, power moves and total post moves. The Dude would get 25 PPG on 52% FG any day of the weak

Defense: Hakeem was the Best 1 on 1 Defender in the Game along Rodman from the 80s and early 90s

Interior D: Hakeem Lead the League in Shot Blocking Three Times

Floor D: Hakeem was the Best Stealing Center Ever

Hakeem > Duncan

[RRR3]

The only things i see that Duncan was Better than Hakeem was Ball Handling and "Maybe" Passing.

Rebounding? NAH look at Prime Hakeem Lead the League in Rebounding Twice

Scoring Skills. Hakeem was smoother, more agil, superior foot work, fadeways, power moves and total post moves. The Dude would get 25 PPG on 52% FG any day of the weak

Defense: Hakeem was the Best 1 on 1 Defender in the Game along Rodman from the 80s and early 90s

Interior D: Hakeem Lead the League in Shot Blocking Three Times

Floor D: Hakeem was the Best Stealing Center Ever

Hakeem > Duncan

I agree that prime Hakeem>prime Duncan, though I have Duncan one spot ahead of Hakeem on my GOAT list atm. However, TD has a higher career Total rebound percentage, so no, Hakeem isn't the better rebounder.

[chips93]

I agree that prime Hakeem>prime Duncan, though I have Duncan one spot ahead of Hakeem on my GOAT list atm. However, TD has a higher career Total rebound percentage, so no, Hakeem isn't the better rebounder.

plus he had to compete with d-rob for boards for the first half of his career

[DCL]

hakeem was so much quicker than duncan.

one of the things about duncan is that he isn't really very athletic. his moves aren't lightning quick. he's not jumping very high. but somehow he just makes his way to free himself to make shots.

hakeem, on the other hand, was like a tall ninja. shaking you left and right and zooming to the hoop or faking your ass to mexico when he's heading to canada. when hakeem scores, you just shake your head in sympathy for the defender because he had no prayer. there's more intensity in olajuwon's game.

but when duncan pulls moves, it's pretty textbook and smooth, but it's not superiorly quick. you sometimes wonder why the defender is so stupid to fall for it, but that's why people say duncan makes it look so easy and effortless.

[Round Mound]

Hakeem was the total best better player

Duncan was great but Hakeem was in another level really

[magnax1]

Honestly, there really isn't much Duncan did better. The two things I can think of are that he was probably a better rebounder in his peak (Got 13-15 rpg in the playoffs usually, Hakeem usually got around 10-11 in his best years) and despite the stats I'd probably prefer Duncan as a shotblocker just because he stayed on the ground and didn't roam far from the basket to get his blocks.
Overall though, Hakeem was basically Duncan with a much better jumpshot. They had different post games, but I think they basically got the same level of results with their back to the basket. However Hakeem had something to fall back on when he didn't get good position. I also think he probably did a better job of fighting for good shots, where Duncan kind of settled (settled is the wrong word) for some really tough hook shots in the post sometimes if he couldn't get close enough (I guess Hakeem actually kind of did this too with his fadeaways, but he also had the athleticism to get easier shots in this situation) Hakeem's probably the better passer, they're pretty equal in post defense, pretty equal in everything actually, but I do think there is a pretty large gap in scoring. Hakeem's is one of the best scoring bigs ever, where Duncan is a good but not amazing on an all time level scorer.

[Rooster]

I take Hakeem on this one. Duncan was great but he was lucky that he went on a team that average 56 wins before Admiral got injured. There were less pressure for him to carry a team and grow his confidence. Hakeem has to be great from the get go and right after Sampson got broken down. Hakeem center competition was also greater compare to Duncan power forward opposition. Hakeem era was sandwich on Magic, Bird and Jordan. I don't thin Duncan on the same team will lead them into 3 Finals and 2 championships.

[Dragonyeuw]

Duncan is probably one rank higher on the GOAT list, and I only say that based on an advantage in rings(4-2), MVPs(2-1), overall team success, etc etc. A snapshot of their career accolades would place Duncan slightly higher. Having watched both extensively, I've never gotten the impression that Duncan was a better player. At the least, I don't think I've ever seen Duncan as dominant as Hakeem was between 93-95, particularly against the competition at his position at that time. Hakeem was simply more versatile defensively, more dominant offensively.

[zizozain]

for Jotaro Durant

[TheOne]

Ohlargeone hands down

[Smoke117]

Only a ****ing idiot thinks Prime Duncan was as good as Prime Hakeem Olajuwon. That or he is 20 years or so max.

[HighFlyer23]

Hakeem is literally better at everything although Duncan did have a slightly more successful career in terms of winning

Replace Duncan with Hakeem and I don't think Houston wins those 2 titles ... but Hakeem still wins with Duncans supporting cast ...

[IGOTGAME]

Hakeem is literally better at everything although Duncan did have a slightly more successful career in terms of winning

Replace Duncan with Hakeem and I don't think Houston wins those 2 titles ... but Hakeem still wins with Duncans supporting cast ...
that is ignorant. Duncan won with one of the worst supporting case ever. He also sustained his championship caliber playoff play for a longer period of time.

Duncan did a lot winning over a long period of time. Don't discount that and forget about the losing Hakeem did.