Top-10 All-Time

[jlauber]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.

[robertshaw_1]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.


Bird 10

[jlauber]

Ok,

Give me your picks.

[robertshaw_1]

Ok,

Give me your picks.

1-chamberlain
2-kareem
3-jordan
4-bird
5-magic
6-hakeem
7-kobe
8-pippen
9-russell
10-oneal

[jlauber]

1-chamberlain
2-kareem
3-jordan
4-bird
5-magic
6-hakeem
7-kobe
8-pippen
9-russell
10-oneal

You'll get nor argument from me...except maybe on the Pippen pick. Pippen was a great player...probably top-25 in my book...but better than Oscar?

Oh, and Russell at #9?

[robertshaw_1]

You'll get nor argument from me...except maybe on the Pippen pick. Pippen was a great player...probably top-25 in my book...but better than Oscar?

yes for me......but its ok...

russel in mi opinion is number 9

[PistolPete]

My top 10...

1. Wilt Chamberlain/Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Larry Bird
5. Karl Malone
6. Jerry West
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Bill Russel
10. Shaquille O'Neal

[robertshaw_1]

My top 10...

1. Wilt Chamberlain/Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Larry Bird
5. Karl Malone
6. Jerry West
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Bill Russel
10. Shaquille O'Neal

and magic?

[PistolPete]

and magic?

Career cut too short in my honest opinion to put him in the top 10. I think we'd all have Magic in our top 5 had he not retired that early. A great player without a doubt, but I look at the overall statistics and longevity of career. He's just as good as those other players though.

[InspiredLebowski]

Magic played 12 years, not counting his little post retirement stint. That's too short to be in the top 10?

[EroticVanilla]

Magic and Bird both played 13 seasons, granted one of Magics seasons was 4 years after he first retired and he only played 32 games when he came back, so basically he played one season less then Bird and you have Bird at 4th, must have been a great season for Bird I guess.

[PistolPete]

Magic played 12 years, not counting his little post retirement stint. That's too short to be in the top 10?

Let me ask you this, from my top 10 list there, who would you take out to replace Magic with? Can't take out Oscar. Hard to take out West either. Magic's one of the 50 greatest players of all-time I'll give him that, but Magic had much more in the tank had he not gone out early.

[EroticVanilla]

Even though I assume your a Jazz fan (with the pistol pete screen name) Karl Malone should be moved for Magic, most people don't think Malones even the top Pf let alone top 10 player of all time.

[cookiemonster]

take out kobe easily.


Let me ask you this, from my top 10 list there, who would you take out to replace Magic with? Can't take out Oscar. Hard to take out West either. Magic's one of the 50 greatest players of all-time I'll give him that, but Magic had much more in the tank had he not gone out early.

[wally_world]

Mine, and i think its as accurate as it can get

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Bill Russell
4) Larry Bird
5) Magic Johnson
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Wilt Chamberlain
9) Kobe Bryant
10) Oscar Robertson

[Cyclone112]

The three lists posted so far are just so full of fail.

[jlauber]

Mine, and i think its as accurate as it can get

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Bill Russell
4) Larry Bird
5) Magic Johnson
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Wilt Chamberlain
9) Kobe Bryant
10) Oscar Robertson

Just for the sake of argument, on what criteria would you place Olajuwon over Wilt? Both played on two title teams. After that, statistically, it is not even close.

[Andrei89]

Wilt Chamberlain shouldn't even be in the top 10. He played in the Era of soft basketball with lousy players.

Dwight would destroy him. Prime Shaq would feast Wilt same with Bosh and Amare

[jlauber]

My top 10...

1. Wilt Chamberlain/Michael Jordan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Larry Bird
5. Karl Malone
6. Jerry West
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Bill Russel
10. Shaquille O'Neal

We're all entitled to our own opinions, but most observers rate Magic as either the #1 PG of all-time, or just behind Oscar.

And I am just amazed at how far Russell has fallen in most of these fan polls. Obviously, the majority of them did not see him play.

[jlauber]

Wilt Chamberlain shouldn't even be in the top 10. He played in the Era of soft basketball with lousy players.

Dwight would destroy him. Prime Shaq would feast Wilt same with Bosh and Amare

:rolleyes:

Here again...obviously someone who never saw Wilt, or his peers, play the game.

[Andrei89]

:rolleyes:


That's right. The fact that he sored 100 points as a center just prooves it.

League was a bunch of softies

[jlauber]

That's right. The fact that he sored 100 points as a center just prooves it.

League was a bunch of softies

So, Wilt holding virtually 100's of NBA records, PROVES that he does not belong in the Top-10???

Just think...in another 10-20 years, the next generation will be comparing Jordan to Cousey. Both will have been dinosaurs.

[jlauber]

No doubt about it...put Bob Hayes, Deion, Bo Jackson, Darrell Green, OJ, Jim Brown, and Hershel Walker into today's NFL, and none of them would make a roster. All were way too slow.

Samuel Dalembert > Wilt

[Fatal9]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

order changes a lot but this is what I feel like today...

[jlauber]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

order changes a lot but this is what I feel like today...

Agreed. I wouldn't have a problem with almost any order of those players.

[LJJ]

And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.

Meh....

Weak.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

in order...

Kareem
MJ
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Bird
Oscar
TD
Hakeem
Shaq
West
Kobe
Malone
Stockton

in the end...Kobe will move up in front of Oscar and maybe in front of Bird...maybe.
Lebron, if he stays healthy, will eventually move in front of Wilt with a long shot of moving to GOAT.

[Glide2keva]

1. Jordan (Inarguable)
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. John Stockton/Malone
9. Dr. J
10. Moses Malone

[Fatal9]

1. Jordan (Inarguable)
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. John Stockton/Malone
9. Dr. J
10. Moses Malone
:roll:

[guy]

My list changes alot and I'll admit my list is flawed since I haven't seen all of them play and can only base it on other sources but right now:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Wilt
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

NOTE: I predict Lebron will at least pass Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

most all-time points
most MVPs (back when it actually mattered)
3rd most all-time rebounds
3rd most all-time blocks

^^^^ that dude is a beast.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird/Russell
Russell/Bird (always vacillate on where to rank Russell)
Shaq
Duncan/Hakeem
Hakeem/Duncan
Kobe or Moses

[Cangri]

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Magic
Bird/Russell
Russell/Bird (always vacillate on where to rank Russell)
Shaq
Duncan/Hakeem
Hakeem/Duncan
Kobe or Moses
Nice list

[lilgodfather1]

There is truly no answer to the top ten. Everyone has a different opinion.

MJ
Magic
Bird
Russell
Kareem
Shaq
Wilt
Duncan
Oscar
West

Kobe is currently on the outside looking in. Two more seasons at this level however and he will pass Jerry for me.

[Glide2keva]

I put Stockton and malone on the same spot because together they were almost unstoppable.

Dr. J got a sentimental vote for me., I actually saw him play. Moses was just ridiculous and is way underrated on this board in favor of flashier players.

Most people have have Kobe in the top ten but he's not on mine.

[spursdynasty420]

1. Jordan (Inarguable)
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. John Stockton/Malone
9. Dr. J
10. Moses Malone

what a joke you cant break the top 10 unless you get a championship

1. jordan
2. wilt
3. russell
4. magic
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. hakeem
9. bird
10. kobe

if you guys dont have shaq or duncan in your top 10 you need to go back to the drawing board and watch some mother ****ing games.


and yah i put kobe at 10.. what??? :)

[Derka]

I never reply to these threads, but I'll bite this time...and I'm not arguing with people about any of this, just posting what I think at the moment.

1. Wilt
2. Michael
3. Larry
4. Russell
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Jerry
8. Oscar
9. Kareem
10. Hakeem

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I never reply to these threads, but I'll bite this time...and I'm not arguing with people about any of this, just posting what I think at the moment.

1. Wilt
2. Michael
3. Larry
4. Russell
5. Kobe
6. Magic
7. Jerry
8. Oscar
9. Kareem
10. Hakeem

good thing you are not arguing with people about any of this.

[Timmy D for MVP]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlien/KAJ
5. KAJ/Wilt
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaq (for now, I expect TD to eclipse him)
8. Tim Duncan (For now, I expect him to move up)
9. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem

[dyna]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.

Duncan, Kobe, Oscar better than Bird??

[FCN]

Lol @ people who are putting Kobe in the top 10 all time :lol

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

This thread is a good way to weed out the morons...
I can now ignore all those who:
a) put Kobe in their top 6, and/or
b) failed to put Kareem in their top 4

[dyna]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Bird
5. Russell
6. Magic
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Oscar
11. Kobe
12. West

[Fatal9]

This thread is a good way to weed out the morons...
I can now ignore all those who:
a) put Kobe in their top 6, and/or
b) failed to put Kareem in their top 4
Sadly, all people know of Kareem is "that old guy" who won with Magic. People simply have no idea. Bird is my favorite player, and I'm even slightly bias in my ranking of him, but anyone ranking him over Kareem or in the top 2 is crazy.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Sadly, all people know of Kareem is "that old guy" who won with Magic. People simply have no idea. Bird is my favorite player, and I'm even slightly bias in my ranking of him, but anyone ranking him over Kareem or in the top 2 is crazy.

forgetting all the stats, the championships, the most MVPs, etc. etc....
He might be the only guy who completed dominated in 2 decades while playing against the very best competition (i.e. back when they had real centers and fouled hard).

[magnax1]

1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Bird
5-Shaq
6-Russell
7-Hakeem
8-Kobe
9-Oscar
10-Isiah/magic
11-KG
12-Moses
13-Duncan
I've Changed my list around a bit. Now that I look back at his career, its hard to put Duncan over Moses. I chose KG over Duncan just because his peak was quite a bit higher. I think that Isiah definitely deserves a spot in the top ten, and so does Oscar. I could see Kobe anywhere from 7-15. From 7-13 is pretty much all interchangeable. Once you get past a certain point, its hard to differentiate.
So, basically I said who would I star a franchise with If I knew how all their career would play out, and this is what I came up with.

[chitownsfinest]

Not going to bother with the top 3 because it can go either way with KAJ, MJ, and Wilt. The difference between them 3 is too small to determine one over the other, so i'll just post my 4-10:
Russell
Bird/Shaq (hard to pick between the two)
Magic
Hakeem
Duncan
Moses/Kobe

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

1-Jordan
2-Kareem
3-Wilt
4-Bird
5-Shaq
6-Russell
7-Hakeem
8-Kobe
9-Oscar
10-Isiah/magic
11-KG
12-Moses
13-Duncan
I've Changed my list around a bit. Now that I look back at his career, its hard to put Duncan over Moses. I chose KG over Duncan just because his peak was quite a bit higher. I think that Isiah definitely deserves a spot in the top ten, and so does Oscar. I could see Kobe anywhere from 7-15. From 7-13 is pretty much all interchangeable. Once you get past a certain point, its hard to differentiate.
So, basically I said who would I star a franchise with If I knew how all their career would play out, and this is what I came up with.

I actually took the time to read your explanation.
A couple things.... You simply cannot put Isiah in the same hemisphere as Magic. You cannot. Also, there is only one player who might claim to be a better PF than Duncan...and it ain't KG. KG never carried a team to 3 or 4 championships.

[magnax1]

I actually took the time to read your explanation.
A couple things.... You simply cannot put Isiah in the same hemisphere as Magic. You cannot. Also, there is only one player who might claim to be a better PF than Duncan...and it ain't KG. KG never carried a team to 3 or 4 championships.
Isiah was just as good as Magic. In his prime, I'd take him over any other point guard. I change my mind on who is the best PG all the time, but really Just look at the teams Isiah won with and the teams Magic won with. The talent level isn't close. Secondly Magic for all his positives was absoulutely terrible on defense. He probably created 45 points a game on offense, but he probably also gave up 35.
KG was just better then Duncan in his prime. Better passer, better rebounder, as good of a defender, as good of a scorer. The only reason I can see putting Duncan over KG is his longevity. So it really comes down to what you care about more. Longevity or peak play.
Who would you say was as good as Duncan?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Isiah was just as good as Magic. In his prime, I'd take him over any other point guard. I change my mind on who is the best PG all the time, but really Just look at the teams Isiah won with and the teams Magic won with. The talent level isn't close. Secondly Magic for all his positives was absoulutely terrible on defense. He probably created 45 points a game on offense, but he probably also gave up 35.
KG was just better then Duncan in his prime. Better passer, better rebounder, as good of a defender, as good of a scorer. The only reason I can see putting Duncan over KG is his longevity. So it really comes down to what you care about more. Longevity or peak play.
Who would you say was as good as Duncan?

wow. sorry man, but your are just wrong thruout.
Isaiah was nowhere near as good, not even close. And Magic was a great great defender in his early years (lead the league in steals)...but less so later on. Remember, he was 6'9" trying to defend PGs...that ain't easy. Isaiah doesn't compare. Geez dude, look at assists alone. Hell, Stockton was a better PG than Isaiah.

KG's peak? TD kicked butt for years and years. Very few would say he is not the best PF of all time. Longevity vs. Peak Play?? WTF are you talking about? TD wins championships. The only other PF that comes close..Malone...and you didn't even have him on your list.

[Roundball_Rock]

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Jordan
4. Bird
5. Shaq
6. Russell
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

order changes a lot but this is what I feel like today...

Wait. I thought you were me? Ok, now to throw off brilliant detective MJ fans I will post a list that is different than yours. (wink, wink)

1) Kareem
2) Wilt
3a) Russell
3b) Jordan
5) Shaq
6) Magic
7) Bird
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Kobe

Honorable mention (in no order after 11th place West): Jerry West, Moses Malone, Dr. J., Oscar



NOTE: I predict Lebron will at least pass Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe.

At least. :cheers:


Isiah was just as good as Magic.

:wtf:

You are invoking the teams Magic won with. That in and of itself means nothing since no one has won multiple rings without great teams (Hakeem had a great team in 95' with Drexler so I did not forget him and Duncan only had a weak "supporting cast" in 03'). Is your argument that if you switched the two that Isiah would win 5 or more rings in LA and Magic 2 or less in Detroit?

[Alhazred]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O' Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

Not a concrete list, by the way.

[magnax1]

wow. sorry man, but your are just wrong thruout.
Isaiah was nowhere near as good, not even close. And Magic was a great great defender in his early years (lead the league in steals)...but less so later on. Remember, he was 6'9" trying to defend PGs...that ain't easy. Isaiah doesn't compare. Geez dude, look at assists alone. Hell, Stockton was a better PG than Isaiah.

KG's peak? TD kicked butt for years and years. Very few would say he is not the best PF of all time. Longevity vs. Peak Play?? WTF are you talking about? TD wins championships. The only other PF that comes close..Malone...and you didn't even have him on your list.
I'm a Jazz fan, and there is no way Malone was better then KG. Malone was great for the first 45 minutes of a game, but then would pretty much ruin the team in any close game. I'd take Barkley over Malone. Duncan won rings because he had a better team then everyone else, and he had a much better coach then everyone else.
And as painful as it is for me to say, Isiah was better then Stockton. He was able to get your team points in the clutch, he was a great passer, and he was

You are invoking the teams Magic won with. That in and of itself means nothing since no one has won multiple rings without great teams (Hakeem had a great team in 95' with Drexler so I did not forget him and Duncan only had a weak "supporting cast" in 03'). Is your argument that if you switched the two that Isiah would win 5 or more rings in LA and Magic 2 or less in Detroit?
Thats not why hes higher, I'm just trying to point out that the rings argument is pointless. All you ever talk about is how Jordan won his rings in a weak era with a team that was so much more dominant then everyone elses.
Isiah was better basically because he was so much better of a defender. If you're looking at just offense, then Magic is obviously better, but if you look at the whole game, and how well the teams performed compared to their talent level, I have to say that Isiah was as good as Magic throughout his career, and better in his peak.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

I'm a Jazz fan, and there is no way Malone was better then KG. Malone was great for the first 45 minutes of a game, but then would pretty much ruin the team in any close game. I'd take Barkley over Malone. Duncan won rings because he had a better team then everyone else, and he had a much better coach then everyone else.
And as painful as it is for me to say, Isiah was better then Stockton. He was able to get your team points in the clutch, he was a great passer, and he was

Thats not why hes higher, I'm just trying to point out that the rings argument is pointless. All you ever talk about is how Jordan won his rings in a weak era with a team that was so much more dominant then everyone elses.
Isiah was better basically because he was so much better of a defender. If you're looking at just offense, then Magic is obviously better, but if you look at the whole game, and how well the teams performed compared to their talent level, I have to say that Isiah was as good as Magic throughout his career, and better in his peak.

Karl Malone is #2 all-time scoring.
He is #6 in all-time rebounding.
KG will not come close to either.
Also, Malone was plenty clutch.

Let me educate you on Magic vs. Isiah...
FG%: Magic 52% Isiah 45%
also, Magic has a lot more assists while having fewer turnovers.
lets not talk about Championships or MVPs

[magnax1]

Karl Malone is #2 all-time scoring.
He is #6 in all-time rebounding.
KG will not come close to either.
Also, Malone was plenty clutch.

Let me educate you on Magic vs. Isiah...
FG%: Magic 52% Isiah 45%
also, Magic has a lot more assists while having fewer turnovers.
lets not talk about Championships or MVPs
So your argument for Isiah over magic is 7% higher fg, and fewer turnovers? (by the way, Magic averaged 3.9 turnovers, and Isiah averaged 3.8........ so)
Karl Malone is #2 is scoring, Jordan is 3rd
Karl Malone is #6 in rebounding, Jordan is #59.
Karl Malone obviously>>>>>>>>>>>>Jordan
Karl Malone was not clutch. At all. In any way. What so ever. At any point in his career.

[Bodhi]

1. Jordan
2. Russell

3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Hakeem
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Duncan

Oscar, West, and Moses deserve to be mentioned.

[Disaprine]

so far mine would be...

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Michael Jordan
5. Magic Johnson
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O' Neal
9. Larry Bird
10. Julius Erving
11. Kobe Bryant/Tim Duncan
12. Moses Malone

Iam probably the only lakers fan in the site who doesn't have kobe in the top 10, but i felt like that he doesn't deserve it yet. I also added Moses Malone because hes that good.

[Roundball_Rock]

Thats not why hes higher, I'm just trying to point out that the rings argument is pointless. All you ever talk about is how Jordan won his rings in a weak era with a team that was so much more dominant then everyone elses.

Magic 5
Isiah 2

It is only pointless if your belief is Isiah could win 5 or more with the Lakers and Magic 2 or less with Detroit.

I am consistent; you are not. Magic had a dominant team--but so did Isiah. Isiah had Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, V. Johnson, Aguirre and Dantley at various times. That is not a great team? Isiah won 2 rings, made the NBA finals thrice and the ECF five straight seasons. You don't do all this without a dominant team.

The other side of the team issue is suppose both were parachuted onto a 25 win team. Who could improve his team more? The answer is Magic. Just look at what happened when Magic retired. His team went from the NBA finals to 43-39 and getting bounced in the first round. What happened? Just look at the FG %'s of his teammates in 91' and compare it to their percentages in 92'.

[juju151111]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.
Magic over MJ. This is all i have to say.(well wat Magic has to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jAbDdCz49Y) :lol :roll: LMFAOO Bird at 10th. What is this a joke???:roll:Duncan better then shaq:lol

Your list is full off lol

[magnax1]

Magic 5
Isiah 2

It is only pointless if your belief is Isiah could win 5 or more with the Lakers and Magic 2 or less with Detroit.

I am consistent; you are not. Magic had a dominant team--but so did Isiah. Isiah had Dumars, Rodman, Laimbeer, V. Johnson, Aguirre and Dantley at various times. That is not a great team? Isiah won 2 rings, made the NBA finals thrice and the ECF five straight seasons. You don't do all this without a dominant team.

The other side of the team issue is suppose both were parachuted onto a 25 win team. Who could improve his team more? The answer is Magic. Just look at what happened when Magic retired. His team went from the NBA finals to 43-39 and getting bounced in the first round. What happened? Just look at the FG %'s of his teammates in 91' and compare it to their percentages in 92'.
obviously I believe Isiah would've won just as much. Probably not more though. Maybe one more, or one less.
Isiah had a good team, but as good as Magics? Not even close. Magic had the second best player ever, a player most people consider top 100, one of the best man to man defenders ever, an all star level two guard, and a deep bench (looking at his 87 team, not the talent he had all through the decade) Isiah's best team was Joe Dumars, who was a borderline top 10 shooting guard in my opinion, Dennis Rodman a past his prime Agguire, and Vinni Johnson. Add into that he wasn't at his peak anymore, and wasn't any bettter then Joe Dumars anymore, yeah Magic had alot better teams. If Isiah was in his prime it'd be close, but Kareem makes a pretty huge difference, even though he was past his prime.
really though I don't want to argue best PG ever, because the top 4 is pretty much flat even. You could point out each ones deficiencies and say thats why they aren't the best.

[lilgodfather1]

forgetting all the stats, the championships, the most MVPs, etc. etc....
He might be the only guy who completed dominated in 2 decades while playing against the very best competition (i.e. back when they had real centers and fouled hard).
I have a hard time putting KAJ ahead of Magic or Larry personally. KAJ had Magic who is number two to me, sure Larry had a lot of help, but he didn't have Magic.

[juju151111]

My list
1.Mj(Clear Goat with all things added up)
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic(better then Bird)
5.Bird
6.Shaq(I switch Shaq and Bird sometimes)
7.Hakeem(Dream)
8.Duncan
9.Kobe
10.Russell(yep)

[Desperado]

Magic over MJ. This is all i have to say.(well wat Magic has to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jAbDdCz49Y) :lol :roll: LMFAOO Bird at 10th. What is this a joke???:roll:Duncan better then shaq:lol

Your list is full off lol


quote mining again...

If your best/only argument for your Jordan > Magic claim is to QUOTE MINE from Magic Johnson who was just BEING POLITE, it just means you cant present any meaningful argument.

[catch24]

My list
1.Mj(Clear Goat with all things added up)
2.Kareem
3.Wilt
4.Magic(better then Bird)
5.Bird
6.Shaq(I switch Shaq and Bird sometimes)
7.Hakeem(Dream)
8.Duncan
9.Kobe
10.Russell(yep)

Russell is ahead of Hakeem, Duncan, and Kobe IMO. Anchored 11 Championships, crashed the boards, his defense was impeccable (didn't gamble for blocks, rather everything came situational, he was methodical on that side of the ball). Had Fmvps, DPOY's existed then, his resume would be verrrrrrry interesting, Juju.

Anyway, here's my list:

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.) Wilt Chamberlain
4.) Larry Bird
5.) Magic Johnson
6.) Bill Russell
7.) Shaquille O'neal
8.) Hakeem Olajuwon
9.) Tim Duncan
10.) Kobe Bryant

Oscar Robertson is interchangeable with Kobe for me, but more than 95% of the time it's Kobe :oldlol:

[Alhazred]

Magnax, come on, man, Isiah over Magic? The only thing Zeke has over him is defense, and even then he wasn't that great of a defender. Magic>Isiah.

[magnax1]

Magnax, come on, man, Isiah over Magic? The only thing Zeke has over him is defense, and even then he wasn't that great of a defender. Magic>Isiah.
Like I said, I can understand why anybody would put him higher or lower, but Isiah seemed to have just as much of an impact on his teams from everything I've seen.

[juju151111]

quote mining again...

If your best/only argument for your Jordan > Magic claim is to QUOTE MINE from Magic Johnson who was just BEING POLITE, it just means you cant present any meaningful argument.
He was being polite??? He also said "If Mj wins this 3rd chip he is better then me" This is before Mj retired and got old and messed up his stats. His 3 chip finals stats are out of this world.

What arguement?? I never heard a arguement for Magic over MJ. I don't know wat to argue. He didn't put why he put him their.

[1987_Lakers]

I always switch of the order of my top 10, but these are the 10 greatest players of all time...

Top 6 (In no order)
Kareem
Wilt
MJ
Russell
Bird
Magic

Top 7-10 (In no order)
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Kobe

[Arti]

1. jordan
2. russell
3. kareem
4. wilt
5. magic
6. bird
7. duncan
8. oscar
9. west
10. shaq

[Alhazred]

Like I said, I can understand why anybody would put him higher or lower, but Isiah seemed to have just as much of an impact on his teams from everything I've seen.

I don't know, could Isiah fill in at center for Laimbeer in the Finals?

[jlauber]

I have mentioned it before, but here goes again...

Magic led his teams to five titles, and eight Finals, in the 80's!!!! Take a look at what those team's faced. The Sixer powerhouse teams of the early 80's, the loaded Celtic teams (FOUR HOFers) of the mid-80's, and the Pistons of the late 80's (which, BTW, Rodman called better than the Bulls' teams that he played on in the 90's.)

True, he had Kareem, and Worthy...but those other teams were genuine GREAT teams. What GREAT teams did MJ's Bulls face in the 90's? The best team was probably an aged Laker team in '91...well past their prime.

Take a look at MY list...I tended to rank the players that made their TEAMMATES better, higher, than the great INDIVDUAL players. If you want individual brilliance...Kareem, Wilt, Shaq (at his peak), and then MJ.

Look, the "MJ lovers" honestly believe that he invented basketball. They will rip the GREATS of the 60's, 70's, and 80's as playing in a prehistoric era. BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...even though it has been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game. These Jordanites will be singing his praises into the 2050's.

Geez, why is it such a horrible comment to say that Magic MIGHT be a better player than MJ??? These same Jordanaires will make ridiculous comments like Dwight Howard would dominate Wilt. Or that Shaq would score 200 points per game in the 60's.

If YOU want to believe that MJ was the greatest...fine...you are probably with the majority opinion in this country. BUT, I really believe that that majority NEVER saw Russell or Wilt play...and probably only saw Kareem in the 80's. I SAW those three play...and I'm sorry, MJ was NOT CLEARLY better. In fact, he had less impact, on the TEAM game, than those three did. MJ languished on losing teams in his first three years. Russell immediately guided his team to a title in his first year, while Wilt and Kareem completely turned their franchises around in their rookie seasons. MJ won six rings playing alongside the most loaded rosters in watered-down 90's.

[rs98762001]

What happened to the top 100 list that GOAT was putting together?

[PistolPete]

Lots of people have Kareem over Wilt. How come?? Wilt dominates Kareem in almost every statistical category.

[1987_Lakers]

Lots of people have Kareem over Wilt. How come?? Wilt dominates Kareem in almost every statistical category.

Kareem had better longevity, more NBA MVPs, & more championships.

[jlauber]

Kareem has SIX rings (same as MJ BTW), while Wilt only had two. The other thing, too, is that H2H, Kareem probably was the better player. However, when the two faced each other, Wilt was nearing the end of his career.

In any case, even a Wilt fan, like myself, can live with KAJ being ranked ahead of him.

[PistolPete]

Kareem had better longevity, more NBA MVPs, & more championships.

But using that theory, a lot of people also have Russell ahead of Wilt when we all damn well know Wilt could run circles around Bill. Kareem has a good case when it comes to the MVP's and rings, but Wilt's career was 6 years shorter. Thus, had he played the same amount of years, none of Wilt's records may have been broken. Also, he had a lot of help in his last 2 title years, but I digress..

[Alhazred]

Look, the "MJ lovers" honestly believe that he invented basketball. They will rip the GREATS of the 60's, 70's, and 80's as playing in a prehistoric era. BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...even though it has been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game. These Jordanites will be singing his praises into the 2050's.

:wtf: When did I ever say anything like that?

[plowking]

Anyway, here's my list:

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.) Wilt Chamberlain
4.) Larry Bird
5.) Magic Johnson
6.) Bill Russell
7.) Shaquille O'neal
8.) Hakeem Olajuwon
9.) Tim Duncan
10.) Kobe Bryant



I absolutely hate these pretentious top 10 lists, though this is one that I perfectly agree with.

[sodapop]

My number 1 pick goes to Earl Manigault and my second pick will be, Len Bias. I never seen Earl play but, I heard stories about his game. Len Bias, I watched him play on television whenever I got the chance. Len Bias is the best player I've ever seen. R.I.P. #34.......................

[gpfanz]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.


1. Ginobili
2. GP
3. Olajuwon
4. Wade
5. Yao

[Abraham Lincoln]

1.) Chamberlain
2.) Russell
3.) Jabbar
4.) Jordan
5.) Bird
6.) Johnson
7.) O'Neal
8.) Robertson
9.) Erving
10.) M. Malone

[alenleomessi]

1.Jordan


2.Wilt
3.Russel
4.Kareem
5.Magic
6.Bird
7.West
8.Dr.J
9.Hakeem
10.Shaq/Duncan/Kobe (when they retire they should all make it)

When LeBron retires(assuming with some rings) he would be in that big gap between Wilt and MJ

[ShaqAttack3234]

1.Jordan
2.Kareem
3.Shaq/Wilt
5.Bird
6.Magic
7.Russell
8.Olajuwon
9.Duncan
10.Kobe/Moses

Shaq is getting disrespected a lot on these lists. People really have a hard time putting into perspective what he's accomplished.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Shaq is getting disrespected a lot on these lists.
The proper list at peak form.

1. Chamberlain
2. Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Russell
5. Jordan
6. Robertson
7. Bird
8. Johnson
9. Erving
10. M. Malone

[NinjaSeal]

these listed are all biased... john stockton 1 player has more steals and assists then every set of 10 players mentioned on this site..

john stockton = top 10

no ships but still top 10

[jlauber]

The proper list at peak form.

1. Chamberlain
2. Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Russell
5. Jordan
6. Robertson
7. Bird
8. Johnson
9. Erving
10. M. Malone

Good point about PEAK performance. CLEARLY Shaq moves up on ANY list. Somewhat off the subject, but that is one of my biggest issues with the baseball HOF. Guys like Guidry and Gooden don't get in...but someone like Sutton does.

Regarding Chamberlain's longevity...in his FINAL season, he led the NBA in rebounding (for the 11th time in 14 years), he was voted 1st team all-defense, and he shot .727 from the field, a mark that will probably never be broken. Coach Larry Brown witnessed Chamberlain dominating a summer league game that included Magic and Marques Johnson...some seven years after he retired. AND, had Wilt concentrated on scoring more from the mid-60's thru the late 60's, coupled with playing several more years, and I suspect that he would hold most all of the regular season scoring records.

[BigTicket]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Bill Russell
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant

That's the list right there.

[Rekindled]

1. Jordan
2. Bird
3. Magic
4. WIlt
5. Kareem
6. Russell
7. Hakeem
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Moses

[Big#50]

1-chamberlain
2-kareem
3-jordan
4-bird
5-magic
6-hakeem
7-kobe
8-pippen
9-russell
10-oneal
Pippen over Timmy?

KAJ
Jordan
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kobe
Lebron
Wilt/Russell

[ShaqAttack3234]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Bill Russell
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant

That's the list right there.

Sorry, but I posted the correct list already.

[Roundball_Rock]

Shaq is getting disrespected a lot on these lists. People really have a hard time putting into perspective what he's accomplished.

Sad but true. I posed this question in my Shaq thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3753359#post3753359 and never got an answer: Under what criteria is he not top 5? Can anyone who has him outside the top 5 explain their criteria in this thread? It would be interesting to see the reasoning some have for excluding him from the top 5.

*4 rings
*6 NBA finals
*9 conference finals
*Only one losing season
*Turned Orlando and Miami around immediately; took LA to the next level
*Arguably the GOAT peak after Wilt (nothing can ever top 24/24/8 on 68% along with great defense imo)
*Dominant
*Longevity, as you have illustrated numerous times on here
*Clutch--arguably the GOAT finals performer

The only thing he lacks is personal hardware in the form of MVP's. He "only" has 2 scoring titles as well, thanks to the crime committed at the end of the 94' season. Of course, if we are going by personal hardware then Duncan>Hakeem yet most people have Hakeem over him.

[Fatal9]

Look, the "MJ lovers" honestly believe that he invented basketball. They will rip the GREATS of the 60's, 70's, and 80's as playing in a prehistoric era. BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...even though it has been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game. These Jordanites will be singing his praises into the 2050's.

Geez, why is it such a horrible comment to say that Magic MIGHT be a better player than MJ??? These same Jordanaires will make ridiculous comments like Dwight Howard would dominate Wilt. Or that Shaq would score 200 points per game in the 60's.

If YOU want to believe that MJ was the greatest...fine...you are probably with the majority opinion in this country. BUT, I really believe that that majority NEVER saw Russell or Wilt play...and probably only saw Kareem in the 80's. I SAW those three play...and I'm sorry, MJ was NOT CLEARLY better. In fact, he had less impact, on the TEAM game, than those three did. MJ languished on losing teams in his first three years. Russell immediately guided his team to a title in his first year, while Wilt and Kareem completely turned their franchises around in their rookie seasons. MJ won six rings playing alongside the most loaded rosters in watered-down 90's.
Best to ignore them. There is no reasoning with those who just don't know.

Magic, like Russell, is difficult for me to rank sometimes. I don't think he is as good individually as MJ, Kareem, Bird and the rest of the top tier...but he did some of the most devastating things on the court. He could change the course of a game quicker than any other player. At least once a game, when Lakers could get a string of 4-5 stops, Magic would basically end the game by running up one of those 12-0 runs on you in like two minutes. Game could be tight till the third quarter but when all of a sudden your offense goes cold and Magic gets the rebounds, it's going to be just an unrelenting offensive attack by him. You can watch teams become completely demoralized when they see him spoonfeeding Worthy, Rambis, Cooper easy layups while the opponent is struggling to get a shot off. Yea, he's the best passer of all time, the best fastbreak player ever and one of the best scoring PGs and overall complete players...but that sort of ability to break out like that once or twice every game, while not even scoring a single point in that run mind you, is what made him so frightening.

[ShaqAttack3234]

BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...

Well, in all fairness, the idea of Kobe being better than Jordan is absurd.


MJ languished on losing teams in his first three years. Russell immediately guided his team to a title in his first year

Well, it's not really fair to compare the situations they came into. Russell was drafted by a team that was 6 games over .500 the previous season and future hall of famer and that season's rookie of the year(Although Rusell would have won had he played more games, but that;s besides the point), Tom Heinsohn also joined the team that same season. Russell's teammate, Bob Cousy also won the league MVP that season. So joining a team 6 games over .500 with future hall of famers, the league MVP and the rookie of the year is hardly comparable to Jordan joining a team that had finished 28 games under .500 and had made no significant offseason additions.

[magnax1]

Agreed, very few players I can think of better then Shaq. Hes at minimum #6.

[Gifted Mind]

I hate to say this, but plenty of these lists are absolutely absurd.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I hate to say this, but plenty of these lists are absolutely absurd.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Jacks3]

Top 10 lists should only be based on peak/prime/production(stats). These lists fail.

[magnax1]

Exactly. Except the stats part.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Top 10 lists should only be based on peak/prime/production(stats). These lists fail.

so David Thompson should be top 10?

[juju151111]

I was thinking the same thing.
Agreed abd people like to dusrespect Shaq for some reason

[Jacks3]

Robinson would have made the top 10 had he not been so awful in the playoffs(production).

[plowking]

Wow, Shaq is disrespected.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Agreed abd people like to dusrespect Shaq for some reason

Well, there are several reasons. One is that he's still playing at we've seen his decline years most recently which makes people forget how good he was in his prime, ala Kareem. But also some of the franchises that he did great things dislike him for other reasons. Magic fans don't like him for signing with LA and criticizing Dwight Howard, Laker fans don't like him for demanding a trade, feuding with Kobe and showing up out of shape at times, while Heat fans don't like him for what they perceive as a lack of effort in his final season there as well as him bashing former heat Players(Chris Quinn and Ricky Davis). A lot of people also don't appreciate big men as much, as Wilt said, nobody roots for Goliath.

In reality, Orlando fans should be grateful that he turned them from a crappy expansion team into a championship contender, Laker fans should be thanking god that he brought them 3 championship years and 8 consecutive championship contending seasons and Heat fans should be thankful that he helped turn them into their only championship team.

And I have to put Jacks on my ignore list, I can't take reading any more of his crap about garbage stats like PER, win shares, defensive win shares ect. Convenient how he ignores PER ranking Manu over Kobe in the season that Kobe won the MVP. :roll:

[sodapop]

I have mentioned it before, but here goes again...

Magic led his teams to five titles, and eight Finals, in the 80's!!!! Take a look at what those team's faced. The Sixer powerhouse teams of the early 80's, the loaded Celtic teams (FOUR HOFers) of the mid-80's, and the Pistons of the late 80's (which, BTW, Rodman called better than the Bulls' teams that he played on in the 90's.)

True, he had Kareem, and Worthy...but those other teams were genuine GREAT teams. What GREAT teams did MJ's Bulls face in the 90's? The best team was probably an aged Laker team in '91...well past their prime.

Take a look at MY list...I tended to rank the players that made their TEAMMATES better, higher, than the great INDIVDUAL players. If you want individual brilliance...Kareem, Wilt, Shaq (at his peak), and then MJ.

Look, the "MJ lovers" honestly believe that he invented basketball. They will rip the GREATS of the 60's, 70's, and 80's as playing in a prehistoric era. BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...even though it has been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game. These Jordanites will be singing his praises into the 2050's.

Geez, why is it such a horrible comment to say that Magic MIGHT be a better player than MJ??? These same Jordanaires will make ridiculous comments like Dwight Howard would dominate Wilt. Or that Shaq would score 200 points per game in the 60's.

If YOU want to believe that MJ was the greatest...fine...you are probably with the majority opinion in this country. BUT, I really believe that that majority NEVER saw Russell or Wilt play...and probably only saw Kareem in the 80's. I SAW those three play...and I'm sorry, MJ was NOT CLEARLY better. In fact, he had less impact, on the TEAM game, than those three did. MJ languished on losing teams in his first three years. Russell immediately guided his team to a title in his first year, while Wilt and Kareem completely turned their franchises around in their rookie seasons. MJ won six rings playing alongside the most loaded rosters in watered-down 90's.


Good comment. Michael Jordan was a great player and he worked hard to achieve incredible skills. He was the best player in the 90's. That doesn't mean he was the greatest player ever. I've watched Jordan play since 1982 and witness his growth as a player. To me, he wasn't the best player I'd ever seen. Len Bias was way better than Michael. Len Bias had incredible hops, great outside jumper, a incredible defender and a outstanding offensive threat. I see a lot of Len Bias in LeBron James. Too bad Len left us so soon. I'm not going to say, What if Len Bias ------? Len's game while he was alive is enough proof to judge. Before he was drafted, his game was incredible and far beyond MJ's.

[magnax1]

Why would you hate anybody for bashing Rick Davis? Thats more then praiseworthy.

[AirJordan&Magic]

Well, there are several reasons. One is that he's still playing at we've seen his decline years most recently which makes people forget how good he was in his prime, ala Kareem. But also some of the franchises that he did great things dislike him for other reasons. Magic fans don't like him for signing with LA and criticizing Dwight Howard, Laker fans don't like him for demanding a trade, feuding with Kobe and showing up out of shape at times, while Heat fans don't like him for what they perceive as a lack of effort in his final season there as well as him bashing former heat Players(Chris Quinn and Ricky Davis). A lot of people also don't appreciate big men as much, as Wilt said, nobody roots for Goliath.

In reality, Orlando fans should be grateful that he turned them from a crappy expansion team into a championship contender, Laker fans should be thanking god that he brought them 3 championship years and 8 consecutive championship contending seasons and Heat fans should be thankful that he helped turn them into their only championship team.

And I have to put Jacks on my ignore list, I can't take reading any more of his crap about garbage stats like PER, win shares, defensive win shares ect. Convenient how he ignores PER ranking Manu over Kobe in the season that Kobe won the MVP. :roll:

This I agree with.....

[Jacks3]

Convenient how he ignores PER ranking Manu over Kobe in the season that Kobe won the MVP. :roll:

lol at the blatant lie.

[Timmy D for MVP]

lol at the blatant lie.

Idk what the argument is about but he was ranked ahead of Kobe in PER that year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2008_leaders.html

[Dave3]

lol at the blatant lie.
You called someone a liar without actually checking to see if he was lying?

[gxL]

my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'neal

[ShaqAttack3234]

my list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Larry Bird
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Bill Russell
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'neal

:oldlol: at Kobe being ranked ahead of Shaq.

[BlueandGold]

the real top 10. Some of you guys must have started basketball a couple of years ago because those lists are like wtf.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird (interchangable)
7. Kobe (interchangable)
8. Dr. J
9. Oscar
10. West

[Lebron23]

the real top 10. Some of you guys must have started basketball a couple of years ago because those lists are like wtf.

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Magic
6. Bird (interchangable)
7. Kobe (interchangable)
8. Dr. J
9. Oscar
10. West

Where's Shaq?

3x NBA Finals MVP
2x NBA Scoring Champion
1x NBA MVP
8x All NBA First Team
2x All NBA Second Team
4x All NBA Third Team
4x NBA Champion

[plowking]

I'll just put it out there, Shaq isn't even top 100 according to some...

I'll just say LOL at any of the posters that don't have Shaq in their top 6, or have Magic above Bird.

[raptorfan_dr07]

There are probably like 4-6 actual GOOD lists here(bleedinpurpletwo, catch24, ShaqAttack, Alhazred, Big Ticket, OldSchoolBBall). The rest are just downright retarded, including the OP. Anyways, here's my list:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Larry Bird
5) Magic Johnson
6) Bill Russell/Shaquille O'Neal
7) Shaquille O'Neal/Bill Russell
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Jerry West/Moses Malone


I have mentioned it before, but here goes again...

True, he had Kareem, and Worthy...but those other teams were genuine GREAT teams. What GREAT teams did MJ's Bulls face in the 90's? The best team was probably an aged Laker team in '91...well past their prime.

Take a look at MY list...I tended to rank the players that made their TEAMMATES better, higher, than the great INDIVDUAL players. If you want individual brilliance...Kareem, Wilt, Shaq (at his peak), and then MJ.

Look, the "MJ lovers" honestly believe that he invented basketball. They will rip the GREATS of the 60's, 70's, and 80's as playing in a prehistoric era. BUT, heaven forbod for someone to say that Kobe, or Lebron, are better than MJ...even though it has been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game. These Jordanites will be singing his praises into the 2050's.

Geez, why is it such a horrible comment to say that Magic MIGHT be a better player than MJ??? These same Jordanaires will make ridiculous comments like Dwight Howard would dominate Wilt. Or that Shaq would score 200 points per game in the 60's.

If YOU want to believe that MJ was the greatest...fine...you are probably with the majority opinion in this country. BUT, I really believe that that majority NEVER saw Russell or Wilt play...and probably only saw Kareem in the 80's. I SAW those three play...and I'm sorry, MJ was NOT CLEARLY better. In fact, he had less impact, on the TEAM game, than those three did. MJ languished on losing teams in his first three years. Russell immediately guided his team to a title in his first year, while Wilt and Kareem completely turned their franchises around in their rookie seasons. MJ won six rings playing alongside the most loaded rosters in watered-down 90's.

:roll: Don't really feel like going through all this cause it's late, but it's evident from this post and your top 10 list, that you don't know jack sh*t about basketball. You talk about "MJ Fans" ripping the greats of the 60's, 70's, 80's, yet you're the moron who has Bird ranked number 10, and Kobe ahead of him. :roll: :roll: You say it's been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game, yet it's been even longer since those other guys did. And yes, it's ludicrous to even insinuate that Kobe or Lebron are on MJ's level, when clearly, they are NOT, and NEVER have been. You obviously haven't been around here for very long, cause if you did, you'd know that its KOBE FANS who downgrade the past eras and make ridiculous comments like Dwight>>>>Wilt and Shaq would score 200 pts in the 60's, NOT MJ fans. We're the ones who are always correcting those idiots when they try to elevate Kobe to some undeserved level by disrespecting the legends past. Most loaded rosters in the watered down 90's??? :roll: :roll: GTFO moron.

Also, I'd like to point out that both Fatal9 and Roundball Rock are conspicuously absent in this thread save for one minor post or two, when jlauber is ranking Larry Bird at number 10 and BEHIND Kobe. :rolleyes: Where are the 200 page essays??? I thought Larry Bird is one of your favorite players, Fatal? Where you at? Come on, you had your little "Is it safe to say Bird owned Jordan" thread and you guys jump all over someone when they say MJ is better than Kareem/Wilt/Russell/etc, yet this jlauber guy shows up blatantly disrespecting Larry Bird yet you guys say nothing??? And they want us to believe they have no agenda. :rolleyes:

[steelpulse]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic / Bird (tie)
4. Shaq / Wilt (tie)
5. Russell
6. Hakeem
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. K Malone

Lebron in the end may be tied with shaq and wilt in the "dominant freaks of nature" echelon

[RazorBaLade]

1 question. If you can't give the ball to your teams best player in the last 2 minutes, how can be a t10 all time player? You know who I'm talking about and yes, you CANNOT.

My really quick only been watching basketball for 7 years list.

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Russel
7. Kobe
8. West
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan

Probably some mistakes but it looks fine to me right now.

[Lebron23]

1 question. If you can't give the ball to your teams best player in the last 2 minutes, how can be a t10 all time player? You know who I'm talking about and yes, you CANNOT.

My really quick only been watching basketball for 7 years list.

1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Bird
6. Russel
7. Kobe
8. West
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan

Probably some mistakes but it looks fine to me right now.


What are you talking about? Shaq still have a better career than, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan.

Kobe is a great player, but he's not better than Prime Shaq. Prime Shaq is the most dominant Center in NBA History.

http://img.allposters.com/6/LRG/8/889/TBMJ000Z.jpg

Why do Kobe fans/trolls hated Shaq? Shaq was the main reason your team won 3 NBA titles from 2000-2002.

[RazorBaLade]

What are you talking about? Shaq still have a better career than, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan.

Kobe is a great player, but he's not better than Prime Shaq. Prime Shaq is the most dominant Center in NBA History.

http://img.allposters.com/6/LRG/8/889/TBMJ000Z.jpg

Why do Kobe fans/trolls hated Shaq? Shaq was the main reason your team won 3 NBA titles from 2000-2002.

I can't honestly put someone in the top 10 all time knowing that if that guy was on my team I couldn't trust him in the last 2 minutes of the game because he can get fouled and brick some free throws. Better career accomplishments, I agree, but that isn't the only thing that goes into a T10 unless I am mistaken. Maybe I can count his overwhelming dominance in the early 2000's and place him 9th or 10th on a super kind day but really I don't see him higher than that IF that.

I have nothing against Shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I can't honestly put someone in the top 10 all time knowing that if that guy was on my team I couldn't trust him in the last 2 minutes of the game because he can get fouled and brick some free throws. Better career accomplishments, I agree, but that isn't the only thing that goes into a T10 unless I am mistaken. Maybe I can count his overwhelming dominance in the early 2000's and place him 9th or 10th on a super kind day but really I don't see him higher than that IF that.

I have nothing against Shaq.

Yet you have Wilt(a worse free throw shooter than Shaq) at number 2 and Russell(as bad as Shaq at the line) at 6. Nice double standard, or did you not research those players enough to know they sucked at the line as well. Hell, I sure wouldn't trust Duncan at the line either. He was under 60% at one point.

[Lebron23]

I can't honestly put someone in the top 10 all time knowing that if that guy was on my team I couldn't trust him in the last 2 minutes of the game because he can get fouled and brick some free throws. Better career accomplishments, I agree, but that isn't the only thing that goes into a T10 unless I am mistaken. Maybe I can count his overwhelming dominance in the early 2000's and place him 9th or 10th on a super kind day but really I don't see him higher than that IF that.

I have nothing against Shaq.


Wilt Chamberlain and Tim Duncan were also horrible free throw shooters. I ranked these NBA players based on individual and team accomplishments.

[RazorBaLade]

Yet you have Wilt(a worse free throw shooter than Shaq) at number 2 and Russell(as bad as Shaq at the line) at 6. Nice double standard, or did you not research those players enough to know they sucked at the line as well. Hell, I sure wouldn't trust Duncan at the line either. He was under 60% at one point.

my fault on the russell thing


Wilt Chamberlain and Tim Duncan were also horrible free throw shooters. I ranked these NBA players based on individual and team accomplishments.

Timmy is clutch as hell, don't talk bad about timmy. % or not, I'll give duncan the ball the last game deciding play. Is there even gonna be a game deciding play when you have Wilt? Idk.

To both of you: I still stand by my opinion and reasoning, I'll give the ball to wilt and russell (although I may have to move them around the list after the facts you guys brought up) and tim D especially no question the last play and never, not once to Shaq. Im in LA. Ive seen the I make them when it counts charade first hand. I've seen the bricks far too many times. When hack a shaq is a legit strategy to beat the lakers, somethings wrong. Anyways off to bed, pce.

[AirJordan&Magic]

My top 10 list.

1) Michael Jordan or Kareem Abdul Jabbar (arguable)
2) Magic Johnson
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Bill Russell
5) Larry Bird (interchangable)
6) Shaquille O'neal (interchangable)
7) Tim Duncan
8) Hakeem Olajuwon
9) Kobe Bryant.........(Any idiot that says something like "Lmao at Kobe being in the top 10" is a moron)
10) Oscar Robertson

Honorable mentions: Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Jerry West,

John Stockton (not top 10, but it is amazing why he is so underrated by some)

[AirJordan&Magic]

Where's Shaq?

3x NBA Finals MVP
2x NBA Scoring Champion
1x NBA MVP
8x All NBA First Team
2x All NBA Second Team
4x All NBA Third Team
4x NBA Champion

It is amazing how some of these young posters disrespect Shaq.

[Big#50]

I'm the only one with Lebron in his top 10? Lebron is a beast. Rings or no rings he's better than Big O.

[Big#50]

Sorry, but I posted the correct list already.
Hardly.

[AirJordan&Magic]

roll: Don't really feel like going through all this cause it's late, but it's evident from this post and your top 10 list, that you don't know jack sh*t about basketball. You talk about "MJ Fans" ripping the greats of the 60's, 70's, 80's, yet you're the moron who has Bird ranked number 10, and Kobe ahead of him. :roll: :roll: You say it's been 12 years since MJ played a meaningful game, yet it's been even longer since those other guys did. And yes, it's ludicrous to even insinuate that Kobe or Lebron are on MJ's level, when clearly, they are NOT, and NEVER have been. You obviously haven't been around here for very long, cause if you did, you'd know that its KOBE FANS who downgrade the past eras and make ridiculous comments like Dwight>>>>Wilt and Shaq would score 200 pts in the 60's, NOT MJ fans. We're the ones who are always correcting those idiots when they try to elevate Kobe to some undeserved level by disrespecting the legends past. Most loaded rosters in the watered down 90's??? :roll: :roll: GTFO moron.

Also, I'd like to point out that both Fatal9 and Roundball Rock are conspicuously absent in this thread save for one minor post or two, when jlauber is ranking Larry Bird at number 10 and BEHIND Kobe. :rolleyes: Where are the 200 page essays??? I thought Larry Bird is one of your favorite players, Fatal? Where you at? Come on, you had your little "Is it safe to say Bird owned Jordan" thread and you guys jump all over someone when they say MJ is better than Kareem/Wilt/Russell/etc, yet this jlauber guy shows up blatantly disrespecting Larry Bird yet you guys say nothing??? And they want us to believe they have no agenda. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

If this was a sensible fan like Shaqattack34, I would applause this....but you are one of the biggest trolls and idiots on this board.......You troll these threads and label anyone that doesn't share your opinions a "Kobe homer". That is why I dont understand why people even take you serious.

You obviously have a biased hatred towards Kobe and it blinds your judgement 95% of the time. Your comment in that thread the other day is a perfect example. In a thread where only Mj, Kareem, and Durant was discussed....you somehow found a way to write a 8 paragraph essay bashing Kobe. Need I say more?

Anyway, Jjauber is one of the most knowledgable guys I've seen on this board. I dont agree with his top 10, but I guarantee he has alot more knowledge of the game than you do.

[Fatal9]

If this was a sensible fan like Shaqattack34, I would applause this....but you are one of the biggest trolls and idiots on this board.......You troll these threads and label anyone that doesn't share your opinions a "Kobe homer". That is why I dont understand why people even take you serious.

You obviously have a biased hatred towards Kobe and it blinds your judgement 95% of the time. Your comment in that thread the other day is a perfect example. In a thread where only Mj, Kareem, and Durant was discussed....you somehow found a way to write a 8 paragraph essay bashing Kobe. Need I say more?

Anyway, Jjauber is one of the most knowledgable guys I've seen on this board. I dont agree with his top 10, but I guarantee he has alot more knowledge of the game than you do.
seriously, what a ******. i think the only post that he are following me around and bring up Kobe out of the blue. only two things he thinks about all day, me and Kobe. There was just a thread the other day, it went 20 pages without Kobe's name being brought up and dude comes in a writes an essay about how everything could be connected to Kobe. Needless to say he got laughed at and didn't reenter the thread :oldlol:. What am I going to argue with jlauber about, I already told him how I feel about Bird being too low. I don't think it's right, but the guy has been watching ball for 50 years, I'm not going to tell him I know better.

[ILLsmak]

I dunno why you post these top 10 lists... guugggh.

But I was bored enough to read them.

I really am glad to see so many people putting Shaq top 10. A few years ago, not many people would have. I wonder if his title in Miami really helped his case...

Kareem is the only center I'll accept listed higher than Shaq. It's arguable, though, but Kareem was a monster in college and the NBA.

Duncan still has work to be done before he can be a top ten. He's gotta get his numbers up, IMO. Gotta get on that top 25 all time in something. Well, he's probably got blocks.

Hakeem is arguable, too, but I am sure most people could think of 10 better players.

WHERE'S LEBRON???

haha.

Edit: To the guy who says you can't name someone top 10 if they can't be trusted at the line, wow! Forget that Shaq could have had 45 points and 15 rebounds before that... and they team could be winning by so much that the last 2 minutes wouldn't matter.

-Smak

[ShaqAttack3234]

my fault on the russell thing



Timmy is clutch as hell, don't talk bad about timmy. % or not, I'll give duncan the ball the last game deciding play. Is there even gonna be a game deciding play when you have Wilt? Idk.

To both of you: I still stand by my opinion and reasoning, I'll give the ball to wilt and russell (although I may have to move them around the list after the facts you guys brought up) and tim D especially no question the last play and never, not once to Shaq. Im in LA. Ive seen the I make them when it counts charade first hand. I've seen the bricks far too many times. When hack a shaq is a legit strategy to beat the lakers, somethings wrong. Anyways off to bed, pce.

I can recall numerous times Shaq had 8-12 point 4th quarters in the playoffs, and yes, you would need a deciding play with Wilt. He only won 2 championships and his team's lost many series late in game 7(not blaming Wilt), but as dominant as Wilt was, he was far from making a team an instant championship winner(no player can do that).

[jlauber]

I KNEW this would stir up some controversy...as well it should. We are talking about the 10 greatest players of All-Time...out of thousands.

Bird at #10? Obviously I am in the minority. But for anyone to suggest that Kobe is NOT CLOSE to Bird, would be ridiculous. Four rings, scoring titles, and MOST observers have ranked him as the best player in the league in the last five years.

What really amazes me, are these Jordanites, who are ripping me about Kobe. I have NEVER ranked Kobe ahead of MJ on ANY of my lists. I personally think he has better range, but that is about it. In any case, if he wins another title, where should he be ranked?

As for Shaq. Take away his "three-peat", in which, IMHO, he was the most dominant post-season player ever,...and he is STILL a HOFer. For those that rip his (and Wilt's) FT shooting...take a look at where they rank in career FTs MADE. Both are ahead of Magic and Bird, among dozens of the greatest players in NBA history. Hell, Wilt had a season in which only Jerry West, in NBA history, made more (Wilt made 835 in 61-62, and only West's 840 in 64-65 topped it.)

I have said it before, but in terms of INDIVIDUAL greatness...Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, and MJ are the best ever. I USED to have those ranked in my top-4. But, having researched the topic, and having read many of the INTELLIGENT posters' opinions here, I have raised Russell, Magic, and even Duncan higher than before. I just think their all-around brilliance, much of which can't be illustrated with stats, made their TEAMS significantly better. Obviously, the other great players did, as well, just by playing the game. I just think that those three elevated their teams to greatness.

One more time, I don't have a problem with almost any order of the general consensus of the "greats" here. Take a look at all of these responses. Most all have the same players...just ranked in different orders.

[lakerspng]

I simply cannot state that one player is the greatest player of all time. There are so many differences between playing center, playing point guard or playing shooting guard that you cannot compare them. You also cannot tell me that Jordan had more competitive fire than Bill Russell or Larry Bird or had a better skillset for his position on the court than Kareem. For my top ten list, I have the top 5 and then the second 5. The top 5 I believe are the best at their respective positions to ever play the game and the second 5 are players from any position (4 of them happen to be big men though) that I feel are right on their heels and their orders are interchangeable.

TOP 5

Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Magic Johnson
Bill Russell (i know he played center, but at his size he could easily have played pf on a all time team, and I didn't think Duncan deserved this spot over him)
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird

NEXT 5

Wilt Chamberlain
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwan
Shaquille O'Neal

If someone put Kareem at number 1, I would not argue, just as I would not argue if someone thought Jordan was number 1. I think people have different tastes and styles of game they enjoy watching and it influences their choice for "GOAT". I personally don't believe any one of those top 5 can be called any greater than the others. They set the standard to which all players aspire.

[NinjaSeal]

these listed are all biased... john stockton 1 player has more steals and assists then every set of 10 players mentioned on this site..

john stockton = top 10

no ships but still top 10


the end. no one on this site can even prove me wrong

[lakerspng]

the end. no one on this site can even prove me wrong

You cannot be in the top 10 without a championship. No offense to the pasty gangsta. I loved Stockton's game as much as I hated him as a Lakers fan, but both he and Malone are severely hurt by the fact that they never won a ring. That's why I have Duncan in my list over Malone.

[NinjaSeal]

like i said no ships but still top 10

[Big#50]

I dunno why you post these top 10 lists... guugggh.

But I was bored enough to read them.

I really am glad to see so many people putting Shaq top 10. A few years ago, not many people would have. I wonder if his title in Miami really helped his case...

Kareem is the only center I'll accept listed higher than Shaq. It's arguable, though, but Kareem was a monster in college and the NBA.

Duncan still has work to be done before he can be a top ten. He's gotta get his numbers up, IMO. Gotta get on that top 25 all time in something. Well, he's probably got blocks.

Hakeem is arguable, too, but I am sure most people could think of 10 better players.

WHERE'S LEBRON???

haha.

Edit: To the guy who says you can't name someone top 10 if they can't be trusted at the line, wow! Forget that Shaq could have had 45 points and 15 rebounds before that... and they team could be winning by so much that the last 2 minutes wouldn't matter.

-Smak
Duncan has 4 rings. 3 Finals MVP, 2 regular season MVP, All NBA D every year, All NBA every year in the league. Yet, you think he has work to do. IDK about some posters here. His D is second to none. Clutch as hell. Tim is the 3rd greatest player of all time.
The day Bird can win a ring by himself and because of his D, I'll say he's better than Tim. The day Magic wins without KAJ, I'll say he is better. The day Hakeem doesn't miss the playoffs, I'll say he's better. Shaq won a ring without a prime Kobe, but Kobe was prime for two others. I can't put Shaq over him because he wasn't as clutch and lacked D. Wilt and Russell played in the 60's. That leaves Jordan and KAJ. Kobe will never surpass him. Lebron might if he wins 4 rings. This is my opinion and I gave my thoughts on why.

[obonpaxis]

1. jordan
2. KAJ
3. wilt
4. bird
5. magic
6. shaq
7. russell
8. hakeem
9. duncan
10. kobe

[G.O.A.T]

To there are 12 Legit candidates for the top 10 All-time

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Rick Barry
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Jerry West

-------------------------

Then there are these guys who could make a (long shot) case for 10th, but not with me.

Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
John Havlicek
George Mikan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Bob Pettit
Isiah Thomas

Here's how I break it down...

#1: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell is the Greatest Winner, Wilt the most dominant force, Jabbar the greatest combination of peak and longevity and Jordan the trancedent perimeter player of all-time.

#2: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: If you are partial to the modern era, post merger than perhaps Bird and\or Magic can be elevated above all the three greatest centers and into the top two or three.

#3: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Same as number 2

#4: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell
Explanation: If your partial to the big men than you can have Shaq fourth above MJ, Magic and Bird. Shaq is the only big man to come close in the last 20 years, but I can't see him above Russell or Wilt or Kareem however in any circumstance.

#5: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Can't have Russell any lower fourth. I would never put him lower than third as I can't see how you make a case for Wilt above him.

#6: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt and Kareem at #5 and #6 seems like a stretch but I can see putting MJ, Magic, Bird and Russell over them if leadership is the main criteria for sorting the all-time superstars.

#7: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt annd Kareem can't go this low, this is where it opens up. You can put Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem in any order and it's tough to argue.

#8: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: For me this is where Bird or Magic have to fit in. The top four ahead of them (in most cases) and I can justify Duncan and Shaq as well, but I can't yet see a good argument for Kobe or Hakeem ahead of those two.

#9 & 10: Acceptable Choices - Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West
Explanation: West and Oscar were the staple here until this past decade when Shaq, Timmy and Kobe all equalled or surpassed their resumes. I can't see Shaq going any lower than this, same for Duncan, four titles and multiple finals MVP's (and should be multiple regualr season MVP's) that's just too much to ignore. As for West, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, the titles are the argument for the modern guys, the stats for the older guys, either way it's tough to go wrong.

[ILLsmak]

Bird at #10? Obviously I am in the minority. But for anyone to suggest that Kobe is NOT CLOSE to Bird, would be ridiculous. Four rings, scoring titles, and MOST observers have ranked him as the best player in the league in the last five years.

Yes, but the majority of his titles were won with another top 10 player. You can't say that for anyone else on the list... cept maybe Magic and Kareem, but I think Kareems "top ten all time" form was gone by then. Shaq was in his prime when he won with Kobe. If you take away those titles (gotta play this card, cuz people play it on Shaq all the time), Kobe is definitely not top 10 all time. What makes him any better than Wade? And no that's not attempting to make an argument. If you look at Kobe's prime and discount Shaq led rings, Wade has done just as much, if not more because he lead a weaker team.

Just saying.

Kobe is not a historically great player. Laker fans want to hype him because he's the one they ended up still having. But the truth is that he is a poor IQ basketball player (despite his amazing talents, in terms of raw talent he's def top 10) that manages to lose games for his team as well as win them.

I promise you, all the people who insulted Shaq for his ft shooting... that Kobe has lost more games by bad shots and stupid decisions down the stretch than Shaq has by missing free throws.

So, yea... Kobe has 4 rings... 3 in a 3 peat w/ Shaq, but Pippen has 6 rings in 2 three peats. Just saying...

-Smak

[Bush4Ever]

My list, using the "compare players to their peers" method.


1a. Michael Jordan
1b. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

[ILLsmak]

To there are 12 Legit candidates for the top 10 All-time

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Jerry West

-------------------------

Then there are these guys who could make a (long shot) case for 10th, but not with me.

Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
John Havlicek
George Mikan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Bob Pettit
Isiah Thomas

Here's how I break it down...

#1: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell is the Greatest Winner, Wilt the most dominant force, Jabbar the greatest combination of peak and longevity and Jordan the trancedent perimeter player of all-time.

#2: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: If you are partial to the modern era, post merger than perhaps Bird and\or Magic can be elevated above all the three greatest centers and into the top two or three.

#3: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Same as number 2

#4: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell
Explanation: If your partial to the big men than you can have Shaq fourth above MJ, Magic and Bird. Shaq is the only big man to come close in the last 20 years, but I can't see him above Russell or Wilt or Kareem however in any circumstance.

#5: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Can't have Russell any lower fourth. I would never put him lower than third as I can't see how you make a case for Wilt above him.

#6: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt and Kareem at #5 and #6 seems like a stretch but I can see putting MJ, Magic, Bird and Russell over them if leadership is the main criteria for sorting the all-time superstars.

#7: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt annd Kareem can't go this low, this is where it opens up. You can put Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem in any order and it's tough to argue.

#8: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: For me this is where Bird or Magic have to fit in. The top four ahead of them (in most cases) and I can justify Duncan and Shaq as well, but I can't yet see a good argument for Kobe or Hakeem ahead of those two.

#9 & 10: Acceptable Choices - Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West
Explanation: West and Oscar were the staple here until this past decade when Shaq, Timmy and Kobe all equalled or surpassed their resumes. I can't see Shaq going any lower than this, same for Duncan, four titles and multiple finals MVP's (and should be multiple regualr season MVP's) that's just too much to ignore. As for West, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, the titles are the argument for the modern guys, the stats for the older guys, either way it's tough to go wrong.

Very well written! Wow, someone who doesn't come off as a douche bag while posting a top ten list... I like how you stated your opinion even though I don't agree with it. I'd shave people off of your list.

Oscar, Kobe, Duncan... erased. Hakeem, more than likely erased (Arguable.)

You really do have to put Pippen on your contender for 10th spot... I argue this by saying not only did he win, but he lead a Jordanless team to a pretty good record and a bit of success... as well as played an important role on a very, very good portland team.

One more thing I'd like to say, I believe if you want to really rate players, you have to do it by tiers. And the tier doesn't magically cut off at 10. I believe there are less than 10 GOAT level players and people end up adding filler in the end.

I can see Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem. I don't really agree with Wilt and Russell, but the way that they dominated their era gives them a leg to stand on. The argument can be made. Now, after that... there really is no one else. There's a HUGE GAP. I mean, I'd personally put my favorite player, Shaq, after them... but I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't. Those Six guys are the only players who you can logically argue GOAT for. I won't argue GOAT for Shaq because I believe I am biased. lol.

Edit: Wow, I only looked closely at a few names on your 'almost' list. KG, really? But not Pippen? KG over David Robison (When David Robinson basically did the same thing KG did...hook up for a late ring)? I'm not gonna sit here and argue, but I had to say that.

-Smak

[Alhazred]

Excellent list, G.O.A.T. :applause:

[ILLsmak]

Duncan has 4 rings. 3 Finals MVP, 2 regular season MVP, All NBA D every year, All NBA every year in the league. Yet, you think he has work to do. IDK about some posters here. His D is second to none. Clutch as hell. Tim is the 3rd greatest player of all time.
The day Bird can win a ring by himself and because of his D, I'll say he's better than Tim. The day Magic wins without KAJ, I'll say he is better. The day Hakeem doesn't miss the playoffs, I'll say he's better. Shaq won a ring without a prime Kobe, but Kobe was prime for two others. I can't put Shaq over him because he wasn't as clutch and lacked D. Wilt and Russell played in the 60's. That leaves Jordan and KAJ. Kobe will never surpass him. Lebron might if he wins 4 rings. This is my opinion and I gave my thoughts on why.

Oh wow, I just noticed this...

Duncan is kind of like the media's 'underrated player.' And because of this they overrate him. Everyone does it. They somehow think that people don't know he's good and overhype him.

First of all, to say that Shaq doesn't have defense is proof that you are bating to wayyyy too many stats. I don't think you can say Shaq wasn't clutch, either, maybe you are saying that because TD has more range therefore it's easier for him to get a shot off?

People say clutch, but doesn't it begin at the opening tip? What if Shaq had games that he put away before the end? Is that any less clutch?

Shaq has the same number of finals MVPs as Duncan, but they were IN A ROW. And the fact that Shaq doesn't have more MVPs than Duncan is a sham... probably because he didn't play enough regular season games.

The fact that you can say with a straight face that Duncan is the 3rd best player of all time is absolutely incomprehensible to me.

But Shaqs stats, and more importantly IMPACT totally destroy Duncans. Duncan has never done anything better than Shaq except shoot, and that's real talk.

Put Duncan in Shaq's place and have him start off on a horrible Orlando team and not a 60 win SA team. SA was never a bad team, but you can't put that all on TD. They were good before him and better with him. And they have continued to provide players to surround him (until recently...)

It's no comparison, really. Duncan is a great player... and a genius of how to run an offense and get his looks. Plus at times he can 'take over.' But he can not take over the way that Shaq could for at least 10 years. Duncan is passive and he still only shoots 50%. Shaq will never shoot 50%.

But I guess I shouldn't be wasting my time, being as in your mind Duncan will always be the 3rd best ever... (btw, don't tell other people you think that if you want to remain credible.)

-Smak

[guy]

Oscar, Kobe, Duncan... erased. Hakeem, more than likely erased (Arguable.)

You really do have to put Pippen on your contender for 10th spot...

Are you saying Pippen > Kobe, Duncan, and Hakeem?

[ILLsmak]

Are you saying Pippen > Kobe, Duncan, and Hakeem?

Nah I'm saying throw them all in the bag together as great players who have no right being mentioned as GOATs. They are more or less equal. I know that baffles people because they look at stats so much, but the only person on that list you can put above Pippen for sure is Hakeem. That's why I said arguable. I accept someone naming Hakeem as a top 10 player.

Pippen and TD are similar in that they both were able to find their role in the offense and excel at it. Pippen did have MJ, but TD had studs as well. Top PG and top SG. And even David Robinson, back when he won in the beginning, was still a top player (despite what people might tell you...)

-Smak

[guy]

Nah I'm saying throw them all in the bag together as great players who have no right being mentioned as GOATs. They are more or less equal. I know that baffles people because they look at stats so much, but the only person on that list you can put above Pippen for sure is Hakeem. That's why I said arguable. I accept someone naming Hakeem as a top 10 player.

Pippen and TD are similar in that they both were able to find their role in the offense and excel at it. Pippen did have MJ, but TD had studs as well. Top PG and top SG. And even David Robinson, back when he won in the beginning, was still a top player (despite what people might tell you...)

-Smak

Wow, a clear example of how Pippen has gotten overrated. In no way is he better then either Kobe or Duncan. And he's definitely not a top 10 player ever.

[lakerspng]

Nah I'm saying throw them all in the bag together as great players who have no right being mentioned as GOATs. They are more or less equal. I know that baffles people because they look at stats so much, but the only person on that list you can put above Pippen for sure is Hakeem. That's why I said arguable. I accept someone naming Hakeem as a top 10 player.

Pippen and TD are similar in that they both were able to find their role in the offense and excel at it. Pippen did have MJ, but TD had studs as well. Top PG and top SG. And even David Robinson, back when he won in the beginning, was still a top player (despite what people might tell you...)

-Smak

I disagree. I think Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem are clearly ahead of Pippen, as are Oscar Robertson and Jerry West.

There are tiers of greats.

If, Kareem, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell are first tier

Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Kobe, Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor are second

Havlicek, Pippen, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Isiah, Moses, Dr J, Barkley KG and a few others would be third.

Kobe has an outside shot of making the top 5, a top 6, if he continues his level of play for another 4-5 years, as by that point he will either be 1st or 2nd all time league scoring leader. He will have most likely added another championship or two, bringing him to 6 rings and will probably have 2 more finals MVPs, making his individual and team accomplishments comparable to nearly anyone in the top 5.

Lebron, if he continues his level of success and adds a couple rings to his resume will also join that second tier. To reach the top tier along with Kobe and make it a top 7, he will need at least 3 rings.

[ILLsmak]

Wow, a clear example of how Pippen has gotten overrated. In no way is he better then either Kobe or Duncan. And he's definitely not a top 10 player ever.

Name A SF that played in Pippens era that was better than he was and did anything remotely close to what he did.

You can say the same for TD (unless you wanna talk about KG), but I flip the script on that by believing he's truly a center. And by that he was rarely, if ever, the best.

As for Kobe we've discussed this before. Kobe is an amazing player who has hurt his team just as much as he has helped them. Pip never went ape and shot Jordan out of a championship.

-Smak

[G.O.A.T]

Very well written! Wow, someone who doesn't come off as a douche bag while posting a top ten list... I like how you stated your opinion even though I don't agree with it. I'd shave people off of your list.

Thanks; I don't expect everyone to agree ever, i just want to understand peoples opinions and have them understand mine.


Oscar, Kobe, Duncan... erased. Hakeem, more than likely erased (Arguable.)

You really do have to put Pippen on your contender for 10th spot... I argue this by saying not only did he win, but he lead a Jordanless team to a pretty good record and a bit of success... as well as played an important role on a very, very good portland team.

I can find a dozen players who led there teams to the second round of the playoffs in their prime and were a key role player\leader on a contender in the twilight of their career.

off the top of my head...

Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Bill Walton, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Sidney Moncrief, Bob Cousy,

That's not to say i don't see the value in Pippen, just that when your arguing him as a top 10 player of all time, accomplishments so common (relatively speaking) are not necessarily support for that argument. Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and Hakeem as well as the top six (which we agree on 100%) have all been the undisputed best player on a Championship team and have won at least multiple titles and been to no fewer than three NBA finals. They are the only ten players in the shot clock era you can say that about.


One more thing I'd like to say, I believe if you want to really rate players, you have to do it by tiers. And the tier doesn't magically cut off at 10. I believe there are less than 10 GOAT level players and people end up adding filler in the end.

I can see Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem. I don't really agree with Wilt and Russell, but the way that they dominated their era gives them a leg to stand on. The argument can be made. Now, after that... there really is no one else. There's a HUGE GAP. I mean, I'd personally put my favorite player, Shaq, after them... but I'm sure plenty of people wouldn't. Those Six guys are the only players who you can logically argue GOAT for. I won't argue GOAT for Shaq because I believe I am biased. lol.

We agree on almost everything here. Only on our opinions of Wilt and Russell and that era as a whole I suspect do we differ.




Edit: Wow, I only looked closely at a few names on your 'almost' list. KG, really? But not Pippen? KG over David Robison (When David Robinson basically did the same thing KG did...hook up for a late ring)? I'm not gonna sit here and argue, but I had to say that.

-Smak

I don't have KG in my top 10, but I've seen some who do and the argument centers around the unprecedented number of all-NBA and all-Defensive first team's he's made as a Power Forward and that he was arguably as good or better than Shaq and Duncan for parts of the entire decade. That's why he was included, also I forgot Rick Barry, another one I disagree with but could see an argument for based on the 1975 title.

[ILLsmak]

No, but... while Pip was a 'role player', we never really know what he could have done. One can assume by his ability to do it all and not get in anyone's way that he could have been much more successful. It's amazing to imagine that he did everything the Bulls needed him to do. That definitely warrants mention. I can't think of any player that has ever done it like he did on a winning team. Guarding the best player, running PG at times, rebounding and hitting the 3.

I'm not going to put him on my top 10 of all time list, but I think he deserves as much mention as some of those other guys. That's why I said the whole tier thing.

-Smak

[lakerspng]

No, but... while Pip was a 'role player', we never really know what he could have done. One can assume by his ability to do it all and not get in anyone's way that he could have been much more successful. It's amazing to imagine that he did everything the Bulls needed him to do. That definitely warrants mention. I can't think of any player that has ever done it like he did on a winning team. Guarding the best player, running PG at times, rebounding and hitting the 3.

I'm not going to put him on my top 10 of all time list, but I think he deserves as much mention as some of those other guys. That's why I said the whole tier thing.

-Smak

Just like I'd have loved to see a prime Jordan and prime Kobe square off... I'd also have loved to see a prime Pippen and prime LeBron go at it. I think Pippen would give him hell. He may not win the match-up everytime, but he would get into him like no other player today is able to.

[ILLsmak]

Just like I'd have loved to see a prime Jordan and prime Kobe square off... I'd also have loved to see a prime Pippen and prime LeBron go at it. I think Pippen would give him hell. He may not win the match-up everytime, but he would get into him like no other player today is able to.

I'd like to see Prime Pip and Prime Kobe; that'd be more of a matchup. I think LBJ would beast Pippen... but Pip probably could trick him a few times. Overall, can't see Pip stopping Bron from getting 30.

-Smak

[Lakers13]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Bill Russell
5) Larry Bird
6) Magic Johnson
7) Shaquille O'Neal
8) Tim Duncan
9) Hakeem Olajuwon
10) Kobe Bryant

That's the list right there.


I agree with this one.

[G.O.A.T]

Tiers...

Edit as you see fit, lets make it a group project...

Tier 1: Legends
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Cut Off: Debatable Greatest All-Time

Tier 2: Elite Superstar Multiple Championships

Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

Cut Off: Title as Best Player

Tier 3: Elite Superstars A

Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
John Havlicek
Moses Malone
Julius Erving

Tier 4: Elite Superstars B

Bob Cousy
Rick Barry
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett

Toss Stockton in there somewhere and don't forget about Mikan...those guys are each their own tier and moves all over the place.

Everything else after that is real, real subjective (like this already isn't)

[lakerspng]

I'd like to see Prime Pip and Prime Kobe; that'd be more of a matchup. I think LBJ would beast Pippen... but Pip probably could trick him a few times. Overall, can't see Pip stopping Bron from getting 30.

-Smak

If Lebron developed a post game, I'd agree. As it stands, Pippen's defensive footwork and lateral quickness would do a great job of nulifying Lebron's speed, which would make his size less of an issues, since he doesn't use it like he should/could.

Pippen and Kobe missed each other by about 5 years. Was really not a fair matchup when he was in Portland. If the 3-peat Lakers had matched up with the second 3-peat Bulls, that would have been an epic finals. tons of great matchups and storylines to watch. Too bad.

[ILLsmak]

Tier 2: Elite Superstar Multiple Championships

Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe




I don't like having Kobe on this list...

Same w/ Duncan, but not for the same reason. I'd take Duncan over Kobe, but I don't think Duncan could lead a bad team anywhere. Not that it matters... cuz you need a good team to win and at fitting in on a good team and leading them, he is one of the best. But guys like Shaq and Hakeem it's kind of like "add 11 scrubs." You know what I mean?

Kobe is kind of like that, too, but Kobe will **** you over if he's not happy and he only knows how to play one way.


-Smak

[G.O.A.T]

I don't like having Kobe on this list...

Same w/ Duncan, but not for the same reason. I'd take Duncan over Kobe, but I don't think Duncan could lead a bad team anywhere. Not that it matters... cuz you need a good team to win and at fitting in on a good team and leading them, he is one of the best. But guys like Shaq and Hakeem it's kind of like "add 11 scrubs." You know what I mean?

Kobe is kind of like that, too, but Kobe will **** you over if he's not happy and he only knows how to play one way.


-Smak

I get what you're saying about Kobe, but he has the resume now that gets him in this group IMO. Who else has scoring titles, 4 rings, an MVP, finals MVP and multiple all-star game MVP's.

As for Duncan. Check out the 2003 Spurs. Not scurbs, but far from loaded, a sure lottery team without Timmy. That cast was not as good as either Rockets cast and Shaq never won without an all-NBA 2 guard at his side.

I agree Duncan doesn't dominate in the same obvious and emphatic way, but he gets results.

[ILLsmak]

I get what you're saying about Kobe, but he has the resume now that gets him in this group IMO. Who else has scoring titles, 4 rings, an MVP, finals MVP and multiple all-star game MVP's.

As for Duncan. Check out the 2003 Spurs. Not scurbs, but far from loaded, a sure lottery team without Timmy. That cast was not as good as either Rockets cast and Shaq never won without an all-NBA 2 guard at his side.

I agree Duncan doesn't dominate in the same obvious and emphatic way, but he gets results.

Yeah, but in Shaq's defense almost every player on his roster's success is enhanced by his presence... same with Hakeem. Duncan had it, too, but not in the same way.

People use that all nba thing against Shaq, but I'd say it'd be just as much for him. Think of how many great 2 guards there are in the league, you know? But they were all nba because they were w/ Shaq.

I can't prove this, but I believe that he helped them further their careers, especially Penny and Kobe.

I mean, if you watch Shaq in his prime and watch Duncan in his prime, how can you say that they are comparable? You can look back at the wins, and yes Duncan did very well, but seriously... Shaq had much, much more impact on the game than Duncan did. I think it's insulting to even mention him.

That's not to take anything away from TD. Much respect to him and his accomplishments, but... there is a huge gap.

Edit: Think of it this way (this is my imaginary situation, you can take it for what it's worth) if you put Duncan on a team with Kobe, they might win as much, but Kobe would emerge as the better player. And Duncan would accept that and simply play his role. Do you see why that matters? Probably not. lol.

-Smak

[Jacks3]

You called someone a liar without actually checking to see if he was lying?
Uh, he said that I ignored Manu being ahead of Kobe in PER, but I didn't. Dude told a straight up lie.

[Jacks3]

Kobe is not a historically great player.


-Smak
:roll:

[ThaRegul8r]

Think of it this way (this is my imaginary situation, you can take it for what it's worth) if you put Duncan on a team with Kobe, they might win as much, but Kobe would emerge as the better player. And Duncan would accept that and simply play his role. Do you see why that matters? Probably not. lol.

What difference does it make as long as you win? That's the whole point, isn't it? To win? Or is it better to be intent on showing everyone you're "The Man" to the detriment of the team rather than doing what would help your team win?

[DirkLegend41]

1. Jordan (Inarguable)
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Kareem
7. Shaq
8. John Stockton/Malone
9. Dr. J
10. Moses Malone
John Stockton? Dr. J?

[bl2k8]

1MJ
2Kareem
3Wilt
4Magic
5Bird
6Russel
7Shaq
8Duncan
9Hakeem
10Kobe

[D-Rose]

Anyone who thinks Pippen is even close to the top 10 or even top 20 is delusional.

There are so many NBA stars that are "forgotten" but with a career next to Jordan, oh boy they'd be seen on these lists as well.

[Desperado]

Anyone who thinks Pippen is even close to the top 10 or even top 20 is delusional.



And these clowns who really believe Jordan is by far and away the undisputed 'clear GOAT' are delusional, brainwashed sheep/kool-aid drinkers.

[Fatal9]

John Stockton? Dr. J?
Malone too :oldlol:. Probably the worst list in this thread.

[lakerspng]

well if you take the consensus top 10 players that everyone has listed and have to choose them in draft order, as to whom you'd pick... what would the order be?

Mine would be:

1. Kareem (dominance, longevity, skill and dedication)
2. Magic (could take any haphazard collection of players and get them to play good ball and nobody, ever, kept the flow of a game moving like the Magic man)
3. Jordan (incredible desire, skill and athleticism)
4. Russell (leadership, defense, anchor)
5. Bird (guts, skill, iq, toughness)
6. Wilt (athleticism, power, attitude)
7. Kobe (determination, work ethic, skill, fearless)
8. Shaq (power, power, power, only reason he's not higher is his lack of personal discipline in regards to his health and preparedness)
9. Hakeem (skill, defense, leadership)
10. Duncan (old reliable, defense, poise, leadership, no ego)

I know many will disagree on Jordan, but I think players like he and Kobe need a team built for them to succeed more than others. I don't care who you have on the floor, if you put Magic out there, he'll get them clicking.

[Leviathon1121]

And these clowns who really believe Jordan is by far and away the undisputed 'clear GOAT' are delusional, brainwashed sheep/kool-aid drinkers.

LOL @ desperado trolling this thread looking for Jordan "homers". Must really piss you off that only 2 or 3 people thus far have put "inarguable" or "clear" in their post. According to you and Roundball this board is supposed to be overflowing with them.


1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Russel
5) Bird
6) Magic
7) Shaq
8) Duncan
9) Robertson
10) Bryant

[Desperado]

LOL @ desperado trolling this thread looking for Jordan "homers". Must really piss you off that only 2 or 3 people thus far have put "inarguable" or "clear" in their post. According to you and Roundball this board is supposed to be overflowing with them.


1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Russel
5) Bird
6) Magic
7) Shaq
8) Duncan
9) Robertson
10) Bryant

http://www.raptureready.com/rr-kool-aid.html

[ShaqAttack3234]

7. Kobe (determination, work ethic, skill, fearless)
8. Shaq (power, power, power, only reason he's not higher is his lack of personal discipline in regards to his health and preparedness)

How anyone can rank Kobe ahead of Shaq is beyond me. Shaq has had the better career and the better peak, hands down.

[catch24]

How anyone can rank Kobe ahead of Shaq is beyond me. Shaq has had the better career and the better peak, hands down.

People who didn't witness prime Shaq, that's who.

[lakerspng]

People who didn't witness prime Shaq, that's who.

I watched every single game he ever played as a Laker, as well as the majority of his games with the Magic beforehand.

The reason why I would is because of one reason and that is, he has shown a lack of commitment to offseason training and health.

I would rather have a guy on my team that I know is giving everything he can, every day of his career to be the best he can, than a guy that was gifted with so much raw ability and talent that he felt he didn't need to try as hard.

The biggest tragedy about Shaq is that as incredible as he was in his prime, he could have been better and his prime could have lasted longer. He could have been undisputedly the greatest force in the history of the league. The only person that ever got in Shaq's way, was Shaq.

I am a huge Lakers fan... I was then and still am a fan of both Shaq and Kobe. it is possible to be a fan of both Kobe and Shaq you know. I still wish they'd have found a way to let down their egos, but oh well.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I watched every single game he ever played as a Laker, as well as the majority of his games with the Magic beforehand.

The reason why I would is because of one reason and that is, he has shown a lack of commitment to offseason training and health.

I would rather have a guy on my team that I know is giving everything he can, every day of his career to be the best he can, than a guy that was gifted with so much raw ability and talent that he felt he didn't need to try as hard.

The biggest tragedy about Shaq is that as incredible as he was in his prime, he could have been better and his prime could have lasted longer. He could have been undisputedly the greatest force in the history of the league. The only person that ever got in Shaq's way, was Shaq.

I am a huge Lakers fan... I was then and still am a fan of both Shaq and Kobe. it is possible to be a fan of both Kobe and Shaq you know. I still wish they'd have found a way to let down their egos, but oh well.

Nobody is saying you can't be a fan of both, but regardless of how good Shaq could have been, he WAS a better player than Kobe and he has a more accomplished career.

And Shaq was extremely motivated in 2000. I don't see how much better he could have been that season. As it is, he had some damn impressive longevity. He was 2nd in MVP voting in his 13th season, won a championship and averaged 20/9/2/2 on 60% shooting in 31 mpg in his 14th season and was an all-star in his 17th season.

[catch24]

I watched every single game he ever played as a Laker, as well as the majority of his games with the Magic beforehand.

The reason why I would is because of one reason and that is, he has shown is the lack of commitment to offseason training and health.

I would rather have a guy on my team that I know is giving everything he can, every day of his career to be the best he can, than a guy that was gifted with so much raw ability and talent that he felt he didn't need to try as hard.

The biggest tragedy about Shaq is that as incredible as he was in his prime, he could have been better and his prime could have lasted longer. He could have been undisputedly the greatest force in the history of the league. The only person that ever got in Shaq's way, was Shaq.

I am a huge Lakers fan... I was then and still am a fan of both Shaq and Kobe. it is possible to be a fan of both Kobe and Shaq you know. I still wish they'd have found a way to let down their egos, but oh well.

Kobe is my favorite player in the L, but to even think he's had a better career than Shaq thus far is pretty ridiculous. For the most part, Shaq's longevity has been been lengthy. From 1993-2006, 13 seasons, he had been putting up MVP type numbers.

Career head to head numbers:
Shaq: 24.7 points 58 FG% 11 rebounds 2.6 assists 0.6 steals 2.4 blocks
Kobe: 25 points 45% FG 5 rebounds 4.7 assists 1.5 steals 0.6 blocks

Shaq had more impact because of his low post scoring (extremely efficient). To go along with 3 Final MVPS, and a regular season MVP compared to Kobe, who has one of each. Just about every team Shaq's played for has gone to the postseason because of, again, his impact. Lakers = championship Caliber, goes to the Heat in 2005, Miami goes from a mere 7/8th seed to a championship caliber team (this was Shaq's 11th season mind you -- 33 years old). Wins a ring in 2006. Has had 6 Finals appearances, all in which he has out performed Kobe by a pretty significant margin. Anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, but I just don't see it being logical. No offense.

[lakerspng]

Nobody is saying you can't be a fan of both, but regardless of how good Shaq could have been, he WAS a better player than Kobe and he has a more accomplished career.

And Shaq was extremely motivated in 2000. I don't see how much better he could have been that season. As it is, he had some damn impressive longevity. He was 2nd in MVP voting in his 13th season, won a championship and averaged 20/9/2/2 on 60% shooting in 31 mpg in his 14th season and was an all-star in his 17th season.

He was a more dominant force for a portion of his career, but he was not a better player than Kobe.

The longevity he's shown is more a tribute to his natural size and talent than it is to his dedication to his craft.

It's just my personal opinion. I like overachievers more than underachievers and Shaq always struck me as an underachiever.

At his best, he was the best, quite simply. I agree. I just don't think he was at his best as long as he could have been and for him, I feel it was a choice.

[D-Rose]

I think there is no list that is 100% correct bc these are partly subjective as well

Mine is

1) Jordan
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Russell
5) Magic
6) Bird
7) Shaq
8) Hakeem
9) Duncan
10) Kobe/Oscar/Moses

[ShaqAttack3234]

He was a more dominant force for a portion of his career, but he was not a better player than Kobe.

The longevity he's shown is more a tribute to his natural size and talent than it is to his dedication to his craft.

It's just my personal opinion. I like overachievers more than underachievers and Shaq always struck me as an underachiever.

At his best, he was the best, quite simply. I agree. I just don't think he was at his best as long as he could have been and for him, I feel it was a choice.

Maybe so, but the same could be said about Wilt.

[ILLsmak]

It's pretty easy to see why people rank Jordan as the GOAT. lol. I mean, in terms of impact, he was there... in terms of stats, he was there, awards, too... and he won 6 rings on 2 3 peats. That is mind boggling. If not for Jordan and his 2 3 peats I believe people would give much more credit to the Lakers and their 3 peat (which, as far as I can tell, will be the last 3 peat ever.)

To the person who responded to my comments on Duncan, yes... it is about winning, but we would assume if someone was a top 10 all time player that they wouldn't be outclassed on their own team. That was my point.

-Smak

[ThaRegul8r]

To the person who responded to my comments on Duncan, yes... it is about winning, but we would assume if someone was a top 10 all time player that they wouldn't be outclassed on their own team. That was my point.

Ah. So you're on record as agreeing then that a player should make sure he isn't outshined by a teammate, and out of ego thus attempt to make sure that he's the man against the best interest of the team's success, and thus actually cost his team a championship in doing so. That's a top 10 player to you. At least we know where you stand.

[Kurosawa0]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Magic Johnson
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

[AirJordan&Magic]

To there are 12 Legit candidates for the top 10 All-time

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Rick Barry
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain
Tim Duncan
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson
Bill Russell
Jerry West

-------------------------

Then there are these guys who could make a (long shot) case for 10th, but not with me.

Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Bob Cousy
Julius Erving
Kevin Garnett
John Havlicek
George Mikan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Bob Pettit
Isiah Thomas

Here's how I break it down...

#1: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Russell is the Greatest Winner, Wilt the most dominant force, Jabbar the greatest combination of peak and longevity and Jordan the trancedent perimeter player of all-time.

#2: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: If you are partial to the modern era, post merger than perhaps Bird and\or Magic can be elevated above all the three greatest centers and into the top two or three.

#3: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Bill Russell
Explanation: Same as number 2

#4: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Bill Russell
Explanation: If your partial to the big men than you can have Shaq fourth above MJ, Magic and Bird. Shaq is the only big man to come close in the last 20 years, but I can't see him above Russell or Wilt or Kareem however in any circumstance.

#5: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Can't have Russell any lower fourth. I would never put him lower than third as I can't see how you make a case for Wilt above him.

#6: Acceptable Choices - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt and Kareem at #5 and #6 seems like a stretch but I can see putting MJ, Magic, Bird and Russell over them if leadership is the main criteria for sorting the all-time superstars.

#7: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: Wilt annd Kareem can't go this low, this is where it opens up. You can put Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem in any order and it's tough to argue.

#8: Acceptable Choices - Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal
Explanation: For me this is where Bird or Magic have to fit in. The top four ahead of them (in most cases) and I can justify Duncan and Shaq as well, but I can't yet see a good argument for Kobe or Hakeem ahead of those two.

#9 & 10: Acceptable Choices - Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West
Explanation: West and Oscar were the staple here until this past decade when Shaq, Timmy and Kobe all equalled or surpassed their resumes. I can't see Shaq going any lower than this, same for Duncan, four titles and multiple finals MVP's (and should be multiple regualr season MVP's) that's just too much to ignore. As for West, Oscar, Kobe, Hakeem, the titles are the argument for the modern guys, the stats for the older guys, either way it's tough to go wrong.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: we need more posters like you.

[AirJordan&Magic]

seriously, what a ******. i think the only post that he are following me around and bring up Kobe out of the blue. only two things he thinks about all day, me and Kobe. There was just a thread the other day, it went 20 pages without Kobe's name being brought up and dude comes in a writes an essay about how everything could be connected to Kobe. Needless to say he got laughed at and didn't reenter the thread :oldlol:. What am I going to argue with jlauber about, I already told him how I feel about Bird being too low. I don't think it's right, but the guy has been watching ball for 50 years, I'm not going to tell him I know better.

He seriously is an idiot. Everyone has their own opinion and not everyone is going to agree. But its idiots like him who can turn great and civil debates like this one...into a trollfest.

Off the top of the head.....Him, Alphawolf, and Godofgods are the dumbest and most idiotic posters I have encountered on this board. Trolls with biased hatred towards players (especially Alphawolf and raptorfan07) who bring irrelevent arguments.

Anyway, I didnt agree with Jjauber's top 10 list, but the guy is one of the smartest and most knowledgable posters on this board.....I myself have learned stuff from Jjauber that I didn't know..and I have done alot of research on the history of basketball.

As you said, the guy has witnessed all the greats, he may not have the popular "top 10 list" but you can pretty much guarantee he has a legit reason as to why he ranked the greats the way he did.

[jlauber]

He seriously is an idiot. Everyone has their own opinion and not everyone is going to agree. But idiots like him turn great and civil debates like this one turn into a trollfest.

Off the top of the head.....Him, Alphawolf, and Godofgods are the dumbest and most idiotic posters I have encountered on this board. Trolls with biased hatred towards players (especially Alphawolf and raptorfan07) who bring irrelevent arguments.

Anyway, I didnt agree with Jjauber's top 10 list, but the guy is one of the smartest and most knowledgable posters on this board.....I myself have learned stuff from Jjauber that I didn't know..and I have done alot of research on the history of basketball.

As you said, the guy has witnessed all the greats, he may not have the popular "top 10 list" but you can pretty much guarantee he has a legit reason as to why he ranked the greats the way he did.

I appreciate the kind words, but I would have to say that there are quite a few knowledgeable posters here, and just looking these lists, the majority of the posters here are being reasonable. The names are essentially the same, but the positions change. I have no problem with that.

I, too, have learned a lot from many here...and that is a good thing. Up until very recently, I would have rated Wilt a clear-cut #1. But, having read the takes of others (I won't take the time to list them, because I would surely leave someone out), as well as some excellent footage (and stats) provided by Fatal9, I have changed my opinions. Incidently, while Fatal may not be a HUGE Russell fan, his footage just opened MY eyes to his overall impact.

As for Jordan...what more can be said? The greatest post-season scorer in NBA history. Six rings. Five MVPs. Six Finals MVPs. While I don't rank him as a runaway #1 in MY rankings...only a complete idiot would argue against him as one of the greatest ever.

And I think that is pretty much the case with guys like Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Oscar, West, Lebron, Kobe, Dr. J, Mose, and some others. And yes, I do believe that John Stockton deserves some honorable mention, too.

All-in-all, though, I think this has been a fascinating topic. In fact, I was amazed that it was as civil as it was. Good job by most all here.

[Dave3]

This is a list based on what I've read in this thread.
1. Jordan
2. KAJ
3/4. Wilt/Russell
5. Bird
6. Shaq
7. Magic
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

This seems to be the combination of all the intelligent opinions in this thread.

[symbol33]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.

obviously you put team honors as you superior condition to choose you list,
1.magic can't get no title without skyhook,
2.bird get much more personal honors than duncan
3.how can you put duncan over shaq

[jlauber]

obviously you put team honors as you superior condition to choose you list,
1.magic can't get no title without skyhook,
2.bird get much more personal honors than duncan
3.how can you put duncan over shaq

It's easy to pick apart ANY selections. Many here point out Magic's surrounding cast...but what about Bird's? Bird had THREE other HOFers playing alongside him.

H2H, Shaq was a more dominant player than Duncan. Just as Wilt was over Russell. However, both Duncan and Russell KNEW that. Instead of trying to outscore, or out-stat them, they did their best to contain them, and concentrated on making their teammates better. In fact, in Duncan's defense, I think he made inferior supporting casts, much better.

In any case, if someone puts Bird, or Jordan at #1,... I don't have a problem with that. But you can't just base a ranking on INDIVDUAL greatness.

[symbol33]

what a joke you cant break the top 10 unless you get a championship

1. jordan
2. wilt
3. russell
4. magic
5. kareem
6. duncan
7. shaq
8. hakeem
9. bird
10. kobe

if you guys dont have shaq or duncan in your top 10 you need to go back to the drawing board and watch some mother ****ing games.


and yah i put kobe at 10.. what??? :)
WHAT A FU*KING JOKE SHOULD I HAVE TO PUT DUNCAN IN TOP 10, YOU THINK HE WAS GOOD, NOT ME, MAYBE HE'S YOUR STYLE, ALSO ME TOO

[Big#50]

WHAT A FU*KING JOKE SHOULD I HAVE TO PUT DUNCAN IN TOP 10, YOU THINK HE WAS GOOD, NOT ME, MAYBE HE'S YOUR STYLE, ALSO ME TOO
Duncan is the 3rd greatest player of all time. He won a ring with TP averaging 14 points a game as the second scorer. TP was benched a lot in those playoffs, he was not a good player, yet. Duncan averaged 5 blocks a game in the finals. You're right, the dude is no good. I understand people putting Bird and Magic ahead of him because of the nostalgia factor. But Tim is a better player. Not only can he get 28 points when he needed to. But he could also take control of the game with his D.

[G.O.A.T]

Duncan is the 3rd greatest player of all time. He won a ring with TP averaging 14 points a game as the second scorer. TP was benched a lot in those playoffs, he was not a good player, yet. Duncan averaged 5 blocks a game in the finals. You're right, the dude is no good. I understand people putting Bird and Magic ahead of him because of the nostalgia factor. But Tim is a better player. Not only can he get 28 points when he needed to. But he could also take control of the game with his D.

There is no way Duncan can be above both Wilt and Russell based on any criteria. If you value winning and intangibles, Russell gets the nod, stats and indivdual domination it goes to Wilt. And Kareem and MJ have Timmy in both ends of the spectrum. So right there, 4th in the highest you can have him. I can't see him any higher than 7th. He never won back-to-back (Kareem, MJ, Russell, Magic, Shaq and Hakeem all did) He never won consecutive MVP's (Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem did) and was not entirley dominant on either end (Russell on Defense, Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq on offense, MJ on both)

[catch24]

Duncan is the 3rd greatest player of all time. He won a ring with TP averaging 14 points a game as the second scorer. TP was benched a lot in those playoffs, he was not a good player, yet. Duncan averaged 5 blocks a game in the finals. You're right, the dude is no good. I understand people putting Bird and Magic ahead of him because of the nostalgia factor. But Tim is a better player. Not only can he get 28 points when he needed to. But he could also take control of the game with his D.

Lay off the crack brotha.

[Big#50]

Lay off the crack brotha.
Idiot.

[ILLsmak]

Ah. So you're on record as agreeing then that a player should make sure he isn't outshined by a teammate, and out of ego thus attempt to make sure that he's the man against the best interest of the team's success, and thus actually cost his team a championship in doing so. That's a top 10 player to you. At least we know where you stand.

That or I'm on record saying that the better player will always appear better.

I don't understand why you want to put words in my mouth, as if attacking my wording and deliberately misunderstanding what I said is going to make me seem wrong. The truth is the truth. Duncan is just not as good as the other players listed.

I said the Kobe thing because Kobe played w/ Shaq (someone who people argue Duncan is better than... probably out of pure hatred for Shaq) and won 3 finals MVPs in a threepeat. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that if they had won a 3 peat with Duncan that Kobe would have won every one of those MVPs. You really don't think that matters?

You assume that a player has to egotistically assert himself in order to be the number one player on a team, but I believe that it just happens. The cream always rises to the top, per se.

While I believe people's discrediting of Shaq is fueled by hatred, I have nothing but love for TD. He's obviously an all time great player, but top 10... really? I can't believe it. He's a first ballot HOFer, for sure. I just get tired of hearing people overrate him because they think he is underrated. It's simply untrue.

Lastly, to everyone who said Kobe carried Shaq in the clutch (and he did sometimes) did you guys miss when Manu was carrying Duncan? At times, (especially with traditional back to the basket centers... which Duncan is, despite his ability to hit a stand still jumper from about 18), the defense is going to adjust and make it so that a guard has to do something. As I have said often, a center can't pass himself the ball. If they cut off that option and make an opening for another player, he has to step up. I can't believe anyone can act like a center accomplished anything without a guard making clutch plays from time to time.

-Smak

[jlauber]

There is no way Duncan can be above both Wilt and Russell based on any criteria. If you value winning and intangibles, Russell gets the nod, stats and indivdual domination it goes to Wilt. And Kareem and MJ have Timmy in both ends of the spectrum. So right there, 4th in the highest you can have him. I can't see him any higher than 7th. He never won back-to-back (Kareem, MJ, Russell, Magic, Shaq and Hakeem all did) He never won consecutive MVP's (Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem did) and was not entirley dominant on either end (Russell on Defense, Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq on offense, MJ on both)

Great points. In fact, IMHO, it is just about impossible to really pick THE GOAT. Russell has the rings. Wilt has the record-book. And MJ and Kareem combine the best of both.

Everyone has an opinion, and mine is no better than anyone else's, but I just can't believe that there is a clear-cut #1. Having said that, someone has to be put there.

Incidently, G.O.A.T., I look forward to your book. Hopefully we will all be reading it in the near future. You certainly have educated me here.

[Big#50]

There is no way Duncan can be above both Wilt and Russell based on any criteria. If you value winning and intangibles, Russell gets the nod, stats and indivdual domination it goes to Wilt. And Kareem and MJ have Timmy in both ends of the spectrum. So right there, 4th in the highest you can have him. I can't see him any higher than 7th. He never won back-to-back (Kareem, MJ, Russell, Magic, Shaq and Hakeem all did) He never won consecutive MVP's (Wilt, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem did) and was not entirley dominant on either end (Russell on Defense, Jabbar, Wilt, Shaq on offense, MJ on both)
I have KAJ and MJ ahead of him.I don't rate the 60's era too high. I respect what Russell and Wilt did. Duncan won consecutive MVP's. He won 3 rings in 5 seasons. Losing to some heartbreakers in the 2 seasons he didn't. Russell himself said Tim is the only player that he compares to himself. You think Tim wasn't dominant on D?

[robertshaw_1]

Duncan is the 3rd greatest player of all time. He won a ring with TP averaging 14 points a game as the second scorer. TP was benched a lot in those playoffs, he was not a good player, yet. Duncan averaged 5 blocks a game in the finals. You're right, the dude is no good. I understand people putting Bird and Magic ahead of him because of the nostalgia factor. But Tim is a better player. Not only can he get 28 points when he needed to. But he could also take control of the game with his D.

Spurs 2d option in the playoffs was Ginobili, and Manu Killed Denver, Phoenix, Detroit, Seattle, Sacramento....etc....by himself.

[Big#50]

That or I'm on record saying that the better player will always appear better.

I don't understand why you want to put words in my mouth, as if attacking my wording and deliberately misunderstanding what I said is going to make me seem wrong. The truth is the truth. Duncan is just not as good as the other players listed.

I said the Kobe thing because Kobe played w/ Shaq (someone who people argue Duncan is better than... probably out of pure hatred for Shaq) and won 3 finals MVPs in a threepeat. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that if they had won a 3 peat with Duncan that Kobe would have won every one of those MVPs. You really don't think that matters?

You assume that a player has to egotistically assert himself in order to be the number one player on a team, but I believe that it just happens. The cream always rises to the top, per se.

While I believe people's discrediting of Shaq is fueled by hatred, I have nothing but love for TD. He's obviously an all time great player, but top 10... really? I can't believe it. He's a first ballot HOFer, for sure. I just get tired of hearing people overrate him because they think he is underrated. It's simply untrue.

Lastly, to everyone who said Kobe carried Shaq in the clutch (and he did sometimes) did you guys miss when Manu was carrying Duncan? At times, (especially with traditional back to the basket centers... which Duncan is, despite his ability to hit a stand still jumper from about 18), the defense is going to adjust and make it so that a guard has to do something. As I have said often, a center can't pass himself the ball. If they cut off that option and make an opening for another player, he has to step up. I can't believe anyone can act like a center accomplished anything without a guard making clutch plays from time to time.

-Smak
How the hell can someone think Duncan isn't top 10? Really? WTF is going on?

[Big#50]

Spurs 2d option in the playoffs was Ginobili, and Manu Killed Denver, Phoenix, Detroit, Seattle, Sacramento....etc....by himself.
GTFO! Manu played like shit in 3 games against the Pistons.

[Big#50]

Spurs 2d option in the playoffs was Ginobili, and Manu Killed Denver, Phoenix, Detroit, Seattle, Sacramento....etc....by himself.
I was talking about 03. Were you an NBA fan back then? Manu played like 15 mins a game that season. Get lost.

[jlauber]

I don't think I could rank Duncan in the Top-5, all-time, but I don't see how he is not Top-10.

Here again, Duncan's impact, like Russell's, and even Magic's, goes beyond sheer numbers.

[ILLsmak]

How the hell can someone think Duncan isn't top 10? Really? WTF is going on?

Is Duncan really better than Kevin Garnett or did he just win more rings?

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

I don't think I could rank Duncan in the Top-5, all-time, but I don't see how he is not Top-10.

Here again, Duncan's impact, like Russell's, and even Magic's, goes beyond sheer numbers.

Every great player's does... but their impact is greater and produces more numbers. That's why people recorded numbers. Sure, you can say "What about this guy who had great numbers but no impact." But he's not an all time great so it's not even worth mentioning.

-Smak

[catch24]

Is Duncan really better than Kevin Garnett or did he just win more rings?

-Smak

Is Kobe really better than Charles Barkley/Oscar Robertson or did he just win more rings?

[ILLsmak]

Is Kobe really better than Charles Barkley/Oscar Robertson or did he just win more rings?

Great point. No he's not. lol

Thanks.

-Smak

[jlauber]

Every great player's does... but their impact is greater and produces more numbers. That's why people recorded numbers. Sure, you can say "What about this guy who had great numbers but no impact." But he's not an all time great so it's not even worth mentioning.

-Smak

For years Iverson was among the leading scorers in the league, but I don't think he was even close to being the best player in the league in any one of them. In fact, his shooting percentage was awful.

Back in MY era...before there was dirt...Walt Bellamy had some spectacular statistical seasons...on losing teams. Despite some gaudy numbers, he was nowhere near the player that Russell was.

[G.O.A.T]

Is Duncan really better than Kevin Garnett or did he just win more rings?

-Smak

Is The United States a more powerful Country than the former Soviet Union or did they just win more Wars?

[ILLsmak]

For years Iverson was among the leading scorers in the league, but I don't think he was even close to being the best player in the league in any one of them. In fact, his shooting percentage was awful.

Back in MY era...before there was dirt...Walt Bellamy had some spectacular statistical seasons...on losing teams. Despite some gaudy numbers, he was nowhere near the player that Russell was.

Ivo might have been one of the best for the year he lead his team to the finals, but like I said in my post, I figured someone would come up with a name, but since he's not an all time great... why does it matter? Or is Ivo an all time great...?

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Is The United States a more powerful Country than the former Soviet Union or did they just win more Wars?

That's a pretty bad analogy... lol, but funny.

-Smak

[robertshaw_1]

GTFO! Manu played like shit in 3 games against the Pistons.

chessburguer eater fat american pro bush idiot....i watch NBA since 1985, and Manu was nearly as important as duncan.....THE ENTIRE SPURS PLAYED REALLY BAD games 3 and 4....NOT 5.....

and MANU OWNED the defending champs in games 1, 2, 6 and 7....so GTFO....

in 03 playoffs manu average 27.5 min per game IDIOT.

[catch24]

chessburguer eater fat american pro bush idiot....i watch NBA since 1985, and Manu was nearly as important as duncan.....THE ENTIRE SPURS PLAYED REALLY BAD games 3 and 4....NOT 5.....

and MANU OWNED the defending champs in games 1, 2, 6 and 7....so GTFO....

in 03 playoffs manu average 27.5 min per game IDIOT.

:roll:

This has become ridiculous.

[symbol33]

What happened to the top 100 list that GOAT was putting together?

i am also waiting for that top 10 too, :bowdown:

[ILLsmak]

chessburguer eater fat american pro bush idiot....i watch NBA since 1985, and Manu was nearly as important as duncan.....THE ENTIRE SPURS PLAYED REALLY BAD games 3 and 4....NOT 5.....

and MANU OWNED the defending champs in games 1, 2, 6 and 7....so GTFO....

in 03 playoffs manu average 27.5 min per game IDIOT.

best insult ever (misspellings and all)

-Smak

[Big#50]

chessburguer eater fat american pro bush idiot....i watch NBA since 1985, and Manu was nearly as important as duncan.....THE ENTIRE SPURS PLAYED REALLY BAD games 3 and 4....NOT 5.....

and MANU OWNED the defending champs in games 1, 2, 6 and 7....so GTFO....

in 03 playoffs manu average 27.5 min per game IDIOT.
LOL In the 03 playoffs Manu averaged 9/3/2. LOL

[spursdynasty420]

i like the love for manu but come on shaw. manu was still finding his way in 03.

[symbol33]

I can't honestly put someone in the top 10 all time knowing that if that guy was on my team I couldn't trust him in the last 2 minutes of the game because he can get fouled and brick some free throws. Better career accomplishments, I agree, but that isn't the only thing that goes into a T10 unless I am mistaken. Maybe I can count his overwhelming dominance in the early 2000's and place him 9th or 10th on a super kind day but really I don't see him higher than that IF that.

I have nothing against Shaq.

so here comes my question and this maybe why shaq not being top 10 in some people's eyes, IS FREE THROW really that hard that in more than 10 years he did not improved it at all.
jordan changed his score skill when he got elder, how about shaq? he didn't even improved this very based FREE THROW when his physical was going down, I did not respect him at all

[Dave3]

so here comes my question and this maybe why shaq not being top 10 in some people's eyes, IS FREE THROW really that hard that in more than 10 years he did not improved it at all.
jordan changed his score skill when he got elder, how about shaq? he didn't even improved this very based FREE THROW when his physical was going down, I did not respect him at all
Shaq hurt his wrists when he was a kid, so they're not as flexible as the average person's, and for that reason he is unable to flick his wrist properly, and that's one of the reasons his free throws are bad.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Why is Shaq getting singled out for his free throw shooting? Why not Wilt and Russell as well?

[robertshaw_1]

Why is Shaq getting singled out for his free throw shooting? Why not Wilt and Russell as well?

chamberlain average 50.4 pts per game in a season and 27 rebounds per game.

STFU and never ever compare him with that oneal guy....

[DC Zephyrs]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Larry Bird
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Magic Johnson
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Tim Duncan
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Jerry West/Oscar Robertson

[Kurosawa0]

chamberlain average 50.4 pts per game in a season and 27 rebounds per game.

STFU and never ever compare him with that oneal guy....

Uh, Wilt had two rings. Shaq has four. They're both top 15, at worst. They can be compared.

[Big#50]

Uh, Wilt had two rings. Shaq has four. They're both top 15, at worst. They can be compared.
Shaq is top 5.

[Kurosawa0]

Shaq is top 5.

No. I'd put him in the top ten, but he's not better than Michael, Russell, Kareem, Magic or Bird. I even put Duncan and Wilt ahead of him.

[JMT]

Ivo might have been one of the best for the year he lead his team to the finals, but like I said in my post, I figured someone would come up with a name, but since he's not an all time great... why does it matter? Or is Ivo an all time great...?

-Smak

Big Iverson fan. Gritty, gutty, skilled, and leading that team to the Finals is a mind blowing achievement.

That said, the biggest problem with AI is, even when he was among the 10 best players in the league, nobody would have traded any of the other 9 for him. His size, shot selection, etc, just always kept him behind the curve.

I think he's a Top 50, maybe even 25. Haven't done the math. But there's always that limitation with him.

[G.O.A.T]

Why is Shaq getting singled out for his free throw shooting? Why not Wilt and Russell as well?

1) they weren't as bad; there was no hack-a-Stilt after all.

2) Shooting league wide was worse then.

3) Most important a lot of fouls were three shots to make two then.

[Big#50]

Big Iverson fan. Gritty, gutty, skilled, and leading that team to the Finals is a mind blowing achievement.

That said, the biggest problem with AI is, even when he was among the 10 best players in the league, nobody would have traded any of the other 9 for him. His size, shot selection, etc, just always kept him behind the curve.

I think he's a Top 50, maybe even 25. Haven't done the math. But there's always that limitation with him.
Dude was an amazing scorer. Nothing much after that.

[EricForman]

Tiers...

Edit as you see fit, lets make it a group project...

Tier 1: Legends
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Cut Off: Debatable Greatest All-Time

Tier 2: Elite Superstar Multiple Championships

Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

Cut Off: Title as Best Player

Tier 3: Elite Superstars A

Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
John Havlicek
Moses Malone
Julius Erving

Tier 4: Elite Superstars B

Bob Cousy
Rick Barry
Isiah Thomas
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett

Toss Stockton in there somewhere and don't forget about Mikan...those guys are each their own tier and moves all over the place.

Everything else after that is real, real subjective (like this already isn't)


great post.

my top ten

1: jordan
2: russell
3: kareem
4: bird
5: magic ( i rank bird over magic cause magic played with a slightly better cast in a significantly weaker conference. also bird was the best player on his team from day one. magic wasnt until maybe his 3rd or 4th year)
6: shaq
7: wilt
8: duncan
9: hakeem
10: kobe (or Zeke)

[EricForman]

i dont know under what logic can shaq, who won three straight titles dropping 35/15/3 on the regular be left off alot of top tens while Wilt, who won two rings and had his stats drop come playoff time, be near the top (or on the top) of everyones lists.

[Alhazred]

i dont know under what logic can shaq, who won three straight titles dropping 35/15/3 on the regular be left off alot of top tens while Wilt, who won two rings and had his stats drop come playoff time, be near the top (or on the top) of everyones lists.

Wilt in the playoffs

1967- 22 points ppg, 29 rpg, 9 apg.

1968- 24 ppg, 25 rpg, 6.5 apg

1970- 22 ppg, 22 rpg, 4.5 apg

I know those numbers are inflated, but give Wilt his due. He's had plenty of amazing performances in the playoffs.

[pierce2008mvp]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O' Neal
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Moses Malone/Kobe Bryant

[NBASTATMAN]

Just for the sake of controversy...

Here is my all-time Top-10 ... again:

1. Russell
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. MJ
5. Wilt
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Oscar
10. Bird

Notables: D. Robinson, West, Hakeem, M. Malone, and Lebron.


Obviously I am basing MY picks on more than just individual brilliance. And, I would probably never argue with anyone would shifts them around. They were all great.



Bird at 10 either makes you 15 yrs old or a racist.. Which is it? :lol

[EricForman]

Wilt in the playoffs

1967- 22 points ppg, 29 rpg, 9 apg.

1968- 24 ppg, 25 rpg, 6.5 apg

1970- 22 ppg, 22 rpg, 4.5 apg

I know those numbers are inflated, but give Wilt his due. He's had plenty of amazing performances in the playoffs.


1: those numbers are almost similar (not much better) than his regular season numbers

2: i wasnt really dissing wilt but saying it makes no sense for ppl to leave off shaq. i myself have wilt on my top ten. i have no problems that others do. but for mostpeople to have wilt in the top 3 and then not have shaq in the top ten is ridiculous.

shaq's stats stand out vs his peers more so than wilts did anyways. wilt played at a time when 6'7 white guy jerry lucas averaged 21/21 or 18/18 for multiple seasons.

there is no logic in the world that can justify someone putting wilt in top three then not have shaq in top ten.

[dyna]

I can't honestly put someone in the top 10 all time knowing that if that guy was on my team I couldn't trust him in the last 2 minutes of the game because he can get fouled and brick some free throws. Better career accomplishments, I agree, but that isn't the only thing that goes into a T10 unless I am mistaken. Maybe I can count his overwhelming dominance in the early 2000's and place him 9th or 10th on a super kind day but really I don't see him higher than that IF that.

I have nothing against Shaq.

And what about the first 46 minutes??

:confusedshrug:

[AirJordan&Magic]

Is Kobe really better than Charles Barkley/Oscar Robertson or did he just win more rings?

Oscar Robertson may be the most complete player of all time...Arguably, and Kobe is arguably the most fundamentally sound/ skilled (arguably). So it really is hard to say who was better than who. It really is damn near impossible to compare the two.

As for Charles Barkley, I'm not directing this towards you, but I really wish people would stop overrating this guy.....I currently rank him at 20 on the all time list. Even if he had won a championship, I still would have a difficult time ranking him higher than 18.

[dyna]

chamberlain average 50.4 pts per game in a season and 27 rebounds per game.

STFU and never ever compare him with that oneal guy....

And Shaq have 2 more rings than Chamberlain so....
:confusedshrug:

[Alhazred]

1: those numbers are almost similar (not much better) than his regular season numbers

2: i wasnt really dissing wilt but saying it makes no sense for ppl to leave off shaq. i myself have wilt on my top ten. i have no problems that others do. but for mostpeople to have wilt in the top 3 and then not have shaq in the top ten is ridiculous.

shaq's stats stand out vs his peers more so than wilts did anyways. wilt played at a time when 6'7 white guy jerry lucas averaged 21/21 or 18/18 for multiple seasons.

there is no logic in the world that can justify someone putting wilt in top three then not have shaq in top ten.

Ok, that I agree with. I have Shaq rated at 7 overall, leaving him out of the top ten does seem ridiculous.

[ShaqAttack3234]

1) they weren't as bad; there was no hack-a-Stilt after all.

Wilt was worse. Shaq has shot 53% for his career, had a peak of 62%, a second best season of 60% and another of 59%. He's shot 50% for his playoff career with a playoff peak of 65% and 3 60+% playoff runs(the 65% was in a full championship run). Wilt shot 51% for his career, had a peak of 61%, a second best season of 59% and a third best of 58%. Wilt shot 46.5% for his playoff career, had a playoff peak of 64%, a second best playoff run of 56% and only 1 other 55% playoff run.

Russell wasn't much better, he shot 56% for his career, had a FT% peak of 61%, a second best of 61% and a third best of 60%. Granted, Russell was noticeably better in the playoffs at 73% peak, 71% for his second best and 66% for his third and a playoff career % of 60%.

But I'm pretty sure Wlt and Russell's percentages look better because of the 3 to make 2, 2 to make 1 ect.

The hack a Shaq difference wasn't proof Shaq was worse


2) Shooting league wide was worse then.

So? A free throw is a free throw. Missing free throws late in games is as hurtful to your team in any era because you're giving away easy points. The rules haven't changed on free throws since their NBA careers other than the 3 to make 2, 2 to make 1 ect. which benefitted poor free throw shooters in the 50's/60's which wasn't an added luxuary that Shaq had.


3) Most important a lot of fouls were three shots to make two then.

Yes, which gave them an advantage over Shaq because of the rules in their era. Doesn't mean they weren't horrendous free throw shooters and atleast comparable to Shaq.

[jlauber]

i dont know under what logic can shaq, who won three straight titles dropping 35/15/3 on the regular be left off alot of top tens while Wilt, who won two rings and had his stats drop come playoff time, be near the top (or on the top) of everyones lists.

Yep...he played like crap in the post-season.

1959-60 33.2 ppg 25.8 rpg
1960-61 37.0 ppg 23.0 rpg
1961-62 35.0 ppg 26.6 rpg
1963-64 34.7 ppg 25.2 rpg
1964-65 29.3 ppg 27.2 rpg
1965-66 28.0 ppg 30.2 rpg
1966-67 21.7 ppg 29.1 rpg
1967-68 23.7 ppg 24.7 rpg
1968-69 13.9 ppg 24.7 rpg
1969-70 22.1 ppg 22.2 rpg
1970-71 18.3 ppg 20.2 rpg
1971-72 14.7 ppg 21.0 rpg
1972-73 10.4 ppg 22.5 rpg

Not ONE post-season with less than 20 rpg, and only three with less than 50% shooting. When you factor in that he faced Russell in 49 post-season games (out of 160), as well as players like Thurmond, Reed, Bellamy, and Kareem...

So, when Wilt's scoring drops from 50.4 down to 35.0 he is flop?

[OldSchoolBBall]

So, when Wilt's scoring drops from 50.4 down to 35.0 he is flop?

Not a flop (he still put up great numbers), but it is underwhelming in a sense. I mean, in his two highest scoring seasons ('62 and '63), his ppg average dropped 15+ ppg and 10+ ppg from the regular to postseason. If you want to look at it percentage-wise, it's a 23-30% drop.

Imagine MJ in '88-'90 averaging 19-20 ppg in the postseason (if we go by the ppg drop-off), or even 24 ppg (if we go by the percentage drop-off)? He'd have been criticized the same way.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not a flop (he still put up great numbers), but it is underwhelming in a sense. I mean, in his two highest scoring seasons ('62 and '63), his ppg average dropped 15+ ppg and 10+ ppg from the regular to postseason. If you want to look at it percentage-wise, it's a 23-30% drop.

Imagine MJ in '88-'90 averaging 19-20 ppg in the postseason (if we go by the ppg drop-off), or even 24 ppg (if we go by the percentage drop-off)? He'd have been criticized the same way.Shows just how high of a standard was placed on him.



"I call Wilt Chamberlain a very honest workman. By that, I mean he always did what his employer wanted. No star athlete has ever given his boss more for the money than Wilt did during his career. Eddie Gottlieb [owner of the Warriors] wanted Wilt to score like no man ever had, so Wilt did. [Alex] Hannum and some of his other coaches wanted him to pass and play defense, so he did that and he played 48 minutes a night. Those who criticized Wilt -- first for his scoring, then for not scoring more -- really should have criticized his employer."

-Leonard Koppett




There is little doubt that a player like Wilt Chamberlain would certainly be more appreciated had he played in the 80's, 90's or 00's. Sadly all most fans know of him are his statistics and false perceptions that manage to grow over time.

[G.O.A.T]

So? A free throw is a free throw. Missing free throws late in games is as hurtful to your team in any era because you're giving away easy points. The rules haven't changed on free throws since their NBA careers other than the 3 to make 2, 2 to make 1 ect. which benefitted poor free throw shooters in the 50's/60's which wasn't an added luxuary that Shaq had.

Yes, which gave them an advantage over Shaq because of the rules in their era. Doesn't mean they weren't horrendous free throw shooters and atleast comparable to Shaq.


My point was that because of the three to make two and the lower percentages on average, the poor shooting of Wilt and Russell never hurt their teams as much as Shaq. If Wilt made 8 out of 12 free throws he might have gotten his team the maximum number of points for those fouls, where Shaq would have lost at least 33% of his teams probable points.

Free Throws are simply a more important part of the game today and there are fewer sub-60% shooters so Shaq's Achilles heal stands out more than that of the two 1960's Giants.

[ShaqAttack3234]

My point was that because of the three to make two and the lower percentages on average, the poor shooting of Wilt and Russell never hurt their teams as much as Shaq. If Wilt made 8 out of 12 free throws he might have gotten his team the maximum number of points for those fouls, where Shaq would have lost at least 33% of his teams probable points.

Free Throws are simply a more important part of the game today and there are fewer sub-60% shooters so Shaq's Achilles heal stands out more than that of the two 1960's Giants.

I'm pretty sure that if you made 2 out of the 3, it'd go down as 2 for 2 in the scorebook the same way it would if that occurred with a lane violation, but I could be wrong. Wilt shot so many free throws(as many as 17 per game in 1962) that he was giving away A LOT of points regardless. It impacted his team at the end of games just as much. For example, Wilt's coah in 1965 was afraid to run the final play for him because he thought Boston would foul him, instead they ran the play for Greer and Havlicek ending up stealing the ball.

[jlauber]

I'm pretty sure that if you made 2 out of the 3, it'd go down as 2 for 2 in the scorebook the same way it would if that occurred with a lane violation, but I could be wrong. Wilt shot so many free throws(as many as 17 per game in 1962) that he was giving away A LOT of points regardless. It impacted his team at the end of games just as much. For example, Wilt's coah in 1965 was afraid to run the final play for him because he thought Boston would foul him, instead they ran the play for Greer and Havlicek ending up stealing the ball.

A miss was a miss. Also, they had single shot foul attempts, as well. So, there were several times per game in which Wilt was fouled deliberately, and only took one shot.

No doubt that Wilt and Shaq were/are horrible FT shooters. BUT, as I have said MANY times, those two guys are in the top-20, all-time, in FTs MADE. In fact, Wilt holds the single game record of 28, and has the second highest season, of 835 (which was just behind Jerry West's 840 in 64-65.)

Shaq had a game against the Pacers, in the 2000 Finals, in which he went 18-39. Awful shooting, to be sure, but 18-39, IMHO, is better than 3-4.

[G.O.A.T]

I'm pretty sure that if you made 2 out of the 3, it'd go down as 2 for 2 in the scorebook the same way it would if that occurred with a lane violation, but I could be wrong. Wilt shot so many free throws(as many as 17 per game in 1962) that he was giving away A LOT of points regardless. It impacted his team at the end of games just as much. For example, Wilt's coah in 1965 was afraid to run the final play for him because he thought Boston would foul him, instead they ran the play for Greer and Havlicek ending up stealing the ball.

As jlauber said, a miss was a miss, and he also pointed out the one attempt non-shooting foul. I remember Shaq shooting very well from the line in Nets series, and I always remember him saying he "made them when he needed to" and to some extent I buy it. Same with Chamberlain (100 point game for example) and especailly Russell who shot nearly 70% in closeout games of the Finals despite being a career 55-58% guy.

[theguru]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Wilt Chamberlain
3.) Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
4.) Shaquille O'Neil
5.) Magic Johnson
6.) Larry Bird
7.) Bill Russell
8.) Hakeem Olajuwon
9.) Karl Malone
10.) Oscar Robertson

** I don't know. It would go something like this. After Michael and Wilt, I'm sort of iffy on my selections. Definitely not the best list in the world.
** Also, as you can see, I value centers much more than other positions.