Kobe and KG are breaking down at the same point: around 32-33 years of age

[PleezeBelieve]

So this is pretty much the physical glass ceiling for superstars who came right out of high school, correct?

Kobe stats next year will be: 23.5/4/4/44%

Is he even top-10 in the league at that point?

[KG5MVP]

So this is pretty much the physical glass ceiling for superstars who came right out of high school, correct?

Kobe stats next year will be: 23.5/4/4/44%

Is he even top-10 in the league at that point?

Kobe is lucky he didn't get a season ending knee injury like Garnett

[GollyImSoGully]

Yet he's still the favorite to win a ring

U MAD?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe is lucky he didn't get a season ending knee injury like Garnett

yup. he just has broken fingers on his shooting hand.

[che guevara]

So Lebron won't be a superstar in 2017?

[KG5MVP]

yup. he just has broken fingers on his shooting hand.

it's not a broken finger, it's a finger sprain, if it's broken, the bone is broken.

[imdaman99]

i still think he will be top 10 in the league for another 4-5 years. hes either 1 or 2 right now depending who you ask but i need to see more from durant before he slides in at #2. maybe if durant has a run to the conference finals i can safely pencil him at #2 next year. kobe will be top 3 for another 3 years.

this is a strong era in basketball. theres plenty of individual stars and different teams are emerging. at least it isnt 1-sided like the 90s were.

[thejumpa]

Kobe's fingers are mangled. Pretty sure it is, or was, broken.

[MK2V1GP]

SEVERE knee injury is BY FAR worse than broken fingers. Broken fingers can heal with a little bit of time. A severe knee injury like KG suffered, at his age, has practically killed his final seasons. If he hadn't suffered that injury last year, I'm positive he'd still be the same player he was his first season in Boston. 19/11/5 type of guy instead of the 14/7/2 he's putting up now.

KG is also the active leader in minutes played, isn't he? He's also top 20 ALL TIME in total minutes played....and he's still in his "early" 30's. Same thing will prolly happen to LeBron. I guess thats the negative in coming to the NBA so early, you're career ends sooner.

Tmac came out of HS and he's fallin apart, same with Jermaine O'Neal, KG, Kobe, Darius Miles (hehe), etc, etc.

[PleezeBelieve]

I think at 31-years of age: KG > Kobe

I'm really not impressed with Kobe at this point.

[ronnymac]

Most players dream of being broken down and still averaging 28-5-5

[GollyImSoGully]

Tmac came out of HS and he's fallin apart, same with Jermaine O'Neal, KG, Kobe, Darius Miles (hehe), etc, etc.

First off, Kobe is not falling apart. He's DECLINING. Big DIFFERENCE. T-Mac and JO are falling apart. You can't be falling apart if you're first option on the best team in the league. Sorry. Does not make sense.

[SEEBASS1234]

So Lebron won't be a superstar in 2017?
what did that have to do with anything?
http://i49.tinypic.com/2mcd9ph.jpg

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

it's not a broken finger, it's a finger sprain, if it's broken, the bone is broken.

avulsion fracture to be exact.
which is different from his other screwed up finger.

[MK2V1GP]

First off, Kobe is not falling apart. He's DECLINING. Big DIFFERENCE. T-Mac and JO are falling apart. You can't be falling apart if you're first option on the best team in the league. Sorry. Does not make sense.

A thousand pardons for not being as technical as you would like. A thousand pardons oh great one.

:hammerhead:

falling apart/declining. whatever. Kobe's struggled with his hand, fingers, ankle, back, and probably something else. That would mean his body is falling apart. He IS declining, but that's expected. he's been in the league over 10 years.

I think the only player who ISN'T declining after turning 30 is Chauncey Billups. And he wasn't even logging HUGE minutes his first 5-6 years in the NBA.

[Disaprine]

http://i50.tinypic.com/2rcs591.gif

[StroShow4]

Kobe still looks pretty damn good to me.

[GollyImSoGully]

Kobe still looks pretty damn good to me.

QFT.

Haters gonna hate. They won't be talking smack when Kobe is playing in June for the 3rd straight year.

[Knoe Itawl]

Man, these Kobe dudes are going to milk that finger injury forever. Just like anytime else he's been injured. I've honestly never seen any other player get so much of a pass for an injury as Bryant, and I'm talking about players who have been banged up much worse.

[joyner82]

List of players to come straight out of high school who were still in the NBA at age 30

Moses Malone-peaked at 26 had a stready decline afterwards. Was a shell of himself by 30

Darryl Dawkins-peaked at 24. Went from averaging 17 7 on 59% shooting at 27 to out of the league at age 30

Shawn Kemp-peaked at 26. Went from averaging 21 and 9 on 49% shooting at 28 to 7 and 4 on 41% shooting at 31

Kevin Garnett-peaked at 26. Went from 1st team all NBA at 28 to basically done at 32.

Tracy McGrady-peaked at 23. You know the story

Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23. Suffered from injuries virtually every year for the last 3.



I must laugh at the LeBron fans that claim he has yet to peak and he has at least 7-8 years left in his prime.

[Disaprine]

Man, these Kobe dudes are going to milk that finger injury forever. Just like anytime else he's been injured. I've honestly never seen any other player get so much of a pass for an injury as Bryant, and I'm talking about players who have been banged up much worse.
http://www.e-imagesite.com/Files2/kobetears6518478.JPG

[magnax1]

Kobe is still the best player in the league, and has actually been playing his best ball since 06, so...... I don't see how hes slowing down.
Why is somebody posting Moses Malone as an example of High school players who fall off quickly? He was an all star at 34, and a starter at 36. Though High school players usually do peak quite a bit earlier. Around the 22-24 range.

[GollyImSoGully]

A thousand pardons for not being as technical as you would like. A thousand pardons oh great one.

:hammerhead:

falling apart/declining. whatever. Kobe's struggled with his hand, fingers, ankle, back, and probably something else. That would mean his body is falling apart. He IS declining, but that's expected. he's been in the league over 10 years.

I think the only player who ISN'T declining after turning 30 is Chauncey Billups. And he wasn't even logging HUGE minutes his first 5-6 years in the NBA.

Haters gonna hate.

Kobe falling apart :no:

[thejumpa]

QFT.

Haters gonna hate. They won't be talking smack when Kobe is playing in June for the 3rd straight year.

Bro you are sensitive as hell. No one is saying that Kobe sucks or he can't play anymore. They are saying what most analysts (former NBA players) have been saying....after playing so long in the NBA, your body starts to break down. It happens to EVERYONE. In Kobe's case, it's injuries that have bothered him for the last couple of seasons. Small or not, they have obviously affected his game in a negative way.

He is 31, has played a lot of basketball, and isn't playing as well as he usually does. Is he still elite? Of course. Is he declining and due to his age and injuries? Well I think the answer is obvious.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Man, these Kobe dudes are going to milk that finger injury forever. Just like anytime else he's been injured. I've honestly never seen any other player get so much of a pass for an injury as Bryant, and I'm talking about players who have been banged up much worse.

who gets a pass for wearing a caste on his shooting finger?

[GollyImSoGully]

lmao @ Knoe. Same clown that said Kobe would NEVER win a ring without Shaq even after the Gasol trade.

[Knoe Itawl]

Kobe is still the best player in the league, and has actually been playing his best ball since 06, so...... I don't see how hes slowing down.
Why is somebody posting Moses Malone as an example of High school players who fall off quickly? He was an all star at 34, and a starter at 36. Though High school players usually do peak quite a bit earlier. Around the 22-24 range.

http://lisavanallen.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/blinders.jpg

[StroShow4]

Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23.

Kobe didn't peak at 23.

[imdaman99]

http://lisavanallen.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/blinders.jpg
did you really say that kobe would never win a ring without shaq? did you at least admit you were wrong? come on man, we know that was wishful thinking on your part, it wasn't really a smart thing for you to say.

[Knoe Itawl]

who gets a pass for wearing a caste on his shooting finger?

I don't understand the question.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23. Suffered from injuries virtually every year for the last 3.


huh?
in the last 3 years he has missed very very few games, won MVP of the league, won the championship, won championship MVP.

[gts]

i won't say KG is breaking down, even younger men have struggled to recover from bad knee injuries and at kg's age that can take a bit longer and longer yet if the player is trying to play through it, a celtics fan can probably answer better to kg than i.
as for kobe he does have alot of minutes on him but he is far from breaking down, he has the busted finger as mentioned before and that's a basketball injury anyone of any age can suffer from, he is also nursing the ankle sprain which also happens to players of all ages (the most common imjury in basketball) and then he has the tender knee which has given him problems on and off for years. since the early 2000's he has had periodic surgeries to clean out the crap in there, long before anyone thought of him as breaking down...

and like kg a player or any player that is older takes longer to recover from these things, even more when they are not allowed to have full recuperation time..

these are all basketball related injuries very common to players of the game. probably the 3 most common of all... their age has nothing to do with the injuries, just the time it takes to recover, but both players are such warriors they'll play even when lesser/younger players would be hobbled to the bench for weeks/months...

i don't know about garnetts daily workout regime but i imagine the league will be seeing plenty of kobe at this current level for years to come which has to be scary for the rest of the league...lol

[EllisGW]

kobe is declining and he is arguably the best player in the game. haha

[imdaman99]

kg is still the heart and soul of the celtics and makes that defense tick. without him the celts would be a very average defensive team. well without him playing well too.

[Swaggin916]

Well it's just the length of the season that gets to them. I think if they just sat out the back to backs it would help a lot.

[B-Easy]

kobe is declining and he is arguably the best player in the game. haha

it really isnt arguable .. i wonder what people a watching when they argue kobe over lebron.

[Knoe Itawl]

did you really say that kobe would never win a ring without shaq? did you at least admit you were wrong? come on man, we know that was wishful thinking on your part, it wasn't really a smart thing for you to say.

Yes, I actually did say that but no one could have predicted that Memphis would have given Gasol away for nothing. And please spare me the "Marc Gasol" garbage because that's revisionist history bullshyt. Unless you can point to ONE thread from when that trade went down talking about how Marc Gasol was going to blossom into a major talent, I don't want to hear it.

NO ONE was talking about Marc Gasol at the time. It was basically Kwame for Pau and the whole basketball world was stunned. Without that trade, I think it's safe to say that Kobe doesn't win another ring. So I'm not really concerned about being "wrong" since that trade was the type of thing no one could predict. It doesn't change one single thing about him as a player as far as I'm concerned though. Still overrated. Still never been the clear cut best in the league his whole career. Great player, but more lucky than great. And I'm not going to say anything else about it so don't bother asking.

[magnax1]

it really isnt arguable .. i wonder what people a watching when they argue kobe over lebron.
Lebron shooting contested 3 pointers nonstop in crunch time. If Lebron had a clue during the last couple of minutes, he'd be the best player in the league, but hes not.

[Knoe Itawl]

it really isnt arguable .. i wonder what people a watching when they argue kobe over lebron.

They're arguing "I like Kobe's game better than Bron", because they're in denial if they really think Kobe is better than him.

[Knoe Itawl]

Lebron shooting contested 3 pointers nonstop in crunch time. If Lebron had a clue during the last couple of minutes, he'd be the best player in the league, but hes not.

Stupidity, but just proves my point. Kobe guys will argue whatever nonsense they can think of so that Kobe stays number one no matter what!

[ProfessorMurder]

Kobe is 31 (32 in August)
Has played 14 seasons
36,664 minutes reg. season
6,888 minutes playoffs

= 43,552 total minutes

KG is 33 (34 in May)
Has played 15 seasons
41,027 minutes reg. season
2,989 minutes playoffs

= 44,016 total minutes

They are both breaking down, and on their way out. KG just got even more unlucky with that knee. Kobe will not play until he's 40 like people were talking about this summer... No way in f*ck. I bet he will be gone by 37 at the very latest.

[Knoe Itawl]

double

[magnax1]

Stupidity.
:roll:
Most satisfying response to anything I've ever said on here.
Someone hates Kobe for no reason.

[GollyImSoGully]

Knoe mad and I love it

[chazzy]

Dude starts the season off with 30ppg on 49% shooting, and his numbers understandably declined after going through multiple injuries.. injuries that were inflicted onto him and not caused by mileage.. and now he's 'physically breaking down' like KG? More of the what have you done for me lately mentality :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

Dude starts the season off with 30ppg on 49% shooting, and his numbers understandably declined after going through multiple injuries.. injuries that were inflicted onto him and not caused by mileage.. and now he's 'physically breaking down' like KG? More of the what have you done for me lately mentality :oldlol:

Kobe gets more passes than a star receiver. :violin:

That's the breaks in sports. And anyway, Kobe's started seasons before like gangbusters only to cool down so miss me with that "injured" bullshyt you guys LOOOOOOOOOVE to use.

DWade = GOAT without injuries. See what I just did there?

[konex]

Kobe just can't shoot right now. The rest of his game is ok. I wouldn't say he's breaking down lol

If he gets calls when he drives, he is still a top offensive threat..

[catch24]

Yes, I actually did say that but no one could have predicted that Memphis would have given Gasol away for nothing. And please spare me the "Marc Gasol" garbage because that's revisionist history bullshyt. Unless you can point to ONE thread from when that trade went down talking about how Marc Gasol was going to blossom into a major talent, I don't want to hear it.

NO ONE was talking about Marc Gasol at the time. It was basically Kwame for Pau and the whole basketball world was stunned. Without that trade, I think it's safe to say that Kobe doesn't win another ring. So I'm not really concerned about being "wrong" since that trade was the type of thing no one could predict. It doesn't change one single thing about him as a player as far as I'm concerned though. Still overrated. Still never been the clear cut best in the league his whole career. Great player, but more lucky than great. And I'm not going to say anything else about it so don't bother asking.

I guess every top 10-15 player was "lucky" to play on great teams with great players as well. Also, knowing Kobe asked to be traded and all that drama that happened back in '07, you seriously didn't think he'd play with another relevant team again? Sounds like you're just hating on the guy. What's funny is your REP, since I've been here, all your posts are directed towards the Bean. What's the deal?

[Kurosawa0]

Kobe's getting old. He's not going to be able to kill it every night anymore. I actually wonder if the reason he's had so many little injuries lately is because he tried to go all out at the beginning of the season. Kobe's played over 1,000 games and nearly 37,000 minutes. No player in history has ever played that much and not started to seriously decline.

[Knoe Itawl]

:roll:
Most satisfying response to anything I've ever said on here.
Someone hates Kobe for no reason.

The reason you gave for LeBron being better than Kobe is plain stupidity and the only people who would agree with it are fellow idiots. First of all, that's all Bron does in crunch time is shoot 3 pointers? That's just stupid. Second of all, Kobe NEVER shoots any ill advised shots in crunch time?

Stupidity.

[magnax1]

The reason you gave for LeBron being better than Kobe is plain stupidity and the only people who would agree with it are fellow idiots. First of all, that's all Bron does in crunch time is shoot 3 pointers? That's just stupid. Second of all, Kobe NEVER shoots any ill advised shots in crunch time?

Stupidity.
I think you knew what I meant. Lebron has terrible crunch time decision making. Kobe doesn't. Big difference when trying to win a championship.

[KenneBell]

Dude starts the season off with 30ppg on 49% shooting, and his numbers understandably declined after going through multiple injuries.. injuries that were inflicted onto him and not caused by mileage.. and now he's 'physically breaking down' like KG? More of the what have you done for me lately mentality :oldlol:
Pretty much. We'll see come playoff time if Kobe has really fallen off.

[chazzy]

Kobe gets more passes than a star receiver. :violin:

That's the breaks in sports. And anyway, Kobe's started seasons before like gangbusters only to cool down so miss me with that "injured" bullshyt you guys LOOOOOOOOOVE to use.

DWade = GOAT without injuries. See what I just did there?

My point is that his injuries this season are minor and could have happened to ANYONE, and aren't indicative of physical breakdown like KG's knees. Obviously he's declining, but he's not gonna fall off the earth as OP suggests because of a couple inflicted injuries that can easily heal.

[GollyImSoGully]

Knoe on suicide watch.

[Knoe Itawl]

I guess every top 10-15 player was "lucky" to play on great teams with great players as well. Also, knowing Kobe asked to be traded and all that drama that happened back in '07, you seriously didn't think he'd play with another relevant team again? Sounds like you're just hating on the guy. What's funny is your REP, since I've been here, all your posts are directed towards the Bean. What's the deal?

No perimeter player has been as lucky as Kobe. Yes, there is a certain amount of luck that goes into any legacy, that's a given. But in Kobe's case, his luck has allowed him to become more overrated than his actual worth. First by lucking his way up into the Lakers after being drafted, with Shaq, Phil et al then by being the benefactor of one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history. If there's another perimeter player who has had that kind of luck two times in a career point him out to me.

Never said he wouldn't play for a relevant team again, but that Pau trade really pushed the Lakers over the top as far as talent compared to the rest of the league. Had that not gone down, he may have played for some good to great teams, but I doubt it would be with the kind of dominant talent the Lakers have now. There would have been more parity. And I don't think Kobe wins unless his teams have overwhelming talent compared to the rest. He's not that type of player, though his fans insist he is. Hell, they almost lost to the Rockets last year. No way they beat them without Pau.

Anyway, things happened the way they did and good for him but IMO it's silly not to take all of that into account.

[Kurosawa0]

Lebron has terrible crunch time decision making. Kobe doesn't.

Not going to defend LeBron, but Kobe has his issues as well. We saw it in Game 4 of last year's Finals. To take the game winning shot, Kobe drove on three players and got his shot blocked. In a big moment, 99% of the time Kobe will take horrible shot rather than pass to a teammate.

[Amil23]

I think you knew what I meant. Lebron has terrible crunch time decision making. Kobe doesn't. Big difference when trying to win a championship.
Ive seen plenty of times where Kobe has made horrible decisions in the clutch,remember when he tried to shoot the gamewinner in the finals with 2 players wide open and end up getting blocked by Turkoglu?Plenty more where that came from which you can give credit to for his horrible clutch shooting %.

[YAWN]

why is this even a thread.. yeah a top 2 player in the league is broken down. :oldlol:

[Knoe Itawl]

I think you knew what I meant. Lebron has terrible crunch time decision making. Kobe doesn't. Big difference when trying to win a championship.

Only Bryant fans think that because you live in your own little world. Seriously, start a thread polling ISH posters and see how many people agree that LeBron has "terrible crunch time decision making".

Once again, stupidity.

[YAWN]

Not going to defend LeBron, but Kobe has his issues as well. We saw it in Game 4 of last year's Finals. To take the game winning shot, Kobe drove on three players and got his shot blocked. In a big moment, 99% of the time Kobe will take horrible shot rather than pass to a teammate.
we've seen him make the pass multiple times this year and he gets bashed for that as well. he is in a no win situation; everyone loves to dissect his game and construe from it whatever they can use for ammo during these belittling sessions.

[Knoe Itawl]

we've seen him make the pass multiple times this year and he gets bashed for that as well. he is in a no win situation; everyone loves to dissect his game and construe from it whatever they can use for ammo during these belittling sessions.

So do you agree that LeBron has "terrible crunch time decision making"? Or is that a stupid comment?

[Artillery]

it really isnt arguable .. i wonder what people a watching when they argue kobe over lebron.

You gotta remember that Kobe fans were delusional enough to crown him player of the decade despite the fast that he never led the league in PER or Win Shares during that period.

[Amil23]

So do you agree that LeBron has "terrible crunch time decision making"? Or is that a stupid comment?Its all apart of their hate.Lebron used to get heavily criticized for making the right decisions with passing and now all of a sudden he needs to stop shooting.Its a lose,lose situation.

[Kurosawa0]

we've seen him make the pass multiple times this year and he gets bashed for that as well. he is in a no win situation; everyone loves to dissect his game and construe from it whatever they can use for ammo during these belittling sessions.

I'm not really talking about in the regular season. Would he try to make that "Jordan to Kerr" pass? I honestly do think Kobe sees passing in a big moment like that as losing a game winning shot for himself.

It's like that big shot he hit against Miami. Sure, it was awesome. What everyone forgets is that it was Kobe having taken two really bad jumpers before that put the Lakers in the position to need a miracle shot like that.

[YAWN]

So do you agree that LeBron has "terrible crunch time decision making"? Or is that a stupid comment?

there is some truth to it for lebron, but its still mostly a stupid comment. he is shooting a high percentage on his 3 point attempts.

although unless a 3 is needed i really don't see why he ever launches one of those random fadeaways. he can easily step back, pick up steam, and get to the basket for a layup/dunk or get to the line on almost every possession.

[Knoe Itawl]

Its all apart of their hate.Lebron used to get heavily criticized for making the right decisions with passing and now all of a sudden he needs to stop shooting.Its a lose,lose situation.

Only an idiot would say that LeBron in the past 3+ years has "terrible crunch time decision making". That's some Kobe endorser nonsense right there.

[Amil23]

there is some truth to it for lebron, but its still mostly a stupid comment. he is shooting a high percentage on his 3 point attempts.

although unless a 3 is needed i really don't see why he ever launches one of those random fadeaways. he can easily step back, pick up steam, and get to the basket for a layup/dunk or get to the line on almost every possession.
and then he will get criticized by some people as afraid to shoot jumpshots, lose lose situation.

[YAWN]

You gotta remember that Kobe fans were delusional enough to crown him player of the decade despite the fast that he never led the league in PER or Win Shares during that period.

In what ways did he not have a case? And wasn't that an open poll by espn for all basketball fans?

[YAWN]

and then he will get criticized by some people as afraid to shoot jumpshots, lose lose situation.

its obvious he can make the jumpshot now. look at the percentages.

Now look at his percentages on dunks/layups.

Seems like common sense which play is more of a sure thing..

[Knoe Itawl]

there is some truth to it for lebron, but its still mostly a stupid comment. he is shooting a high percentage on his 3 point attempts.

although unless a 3 is needed i really don't see why he ever launches one of those random fadeaways. he can easily step back, pick up steam, and get to the basket for a layup/dunk or get to the line on almost every possession.

TERRIBLE? Really? Not even saying poor here and there but in general TERRIBLE? And there's some truth to that? Wow.

And I guess you don't watch much Cavs games because Bron frequently drives at the end of games.

[GollyImSoGully]

TERRIBLE? Really? Not even saying poor here and there but in general TERRIBLE? And there's some truth to that? Wow.

And I guess you don't watch much Cavs games because Bron frequently drives at the end of games.

OH U MAD?

[Knoe Itawl]

In what ways did he not have a case? And wasn't that an open poll by espn for all basketball fans?

Oh, OK, you're just another delusional Bryant fan. I see. I was thinking of you being somewhat reasonable. He does NOT have a case over Duncan. Shaq either, but definitely not Duncan (and the only reason Shaq isn't inarguable is because he overlapped from the 90s into the 00s).

[YAWN]

TERRIBLE? Really? Not even saying poor here and there but in general TERRIBLE? And there's some truth to that? Wow.

And I guess you don't watch much Cavs games because Bron frequently drives at the end of games.

Replace terrible with "not great". For some reason "terrible" didn't stand out.

Ive only watched the cavs 40-50 times over the past 2 seasons, so you may be right.

[Kurosawa0]

The only case Kobe has for being called the player of the decade is through image. He's not been the best player, winner or most consistent. Yet, he's been the biggest name in the sport over the last ten years. No player has been the topic of as many conversations as Kobe. Not Shaq. Not LeBron. Certainly not Tim Duncan.

[YAWN]

Oh, OK, you're just another delusional Bryant fan. I see. I was thinking of you being somewhat reasonable. He does NOT have a case over Duncan. Shaq either, but definitely not Duncan (and the only reason Shaq isn't inarguable is because he overlapped from the 90s into the 00s).

Right, when taking into consideration only the ten years that comprise a decade and excluding everything else. Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant are the top 2 players of the decade. The gap between the two for that decade isn't very large so i could go with either one. My only gripe was with people arguing shaq as the player of the decade due to his falling off over the last half.

[rfm767]

Both Kobe and KG have been through some injuries this season. They're obviously not in the peaks of their careers, but if any of them gets a great play-off run which ends up with a ring, we are back to the "their still the best in the league" conversation.

This thread is awfully disrespectful.

[Kurosawa0]

My only gripe was with people arguing shaq as the player of the decade due to his falling off over the last half.

Still, in that first half, Shaq was better than Kobe or Duncan have been at any time.

[GollyImSoGully]

Still, in that first half, Shaq was better than Kobe or Duncan have been at any time.

So what. Player of the decade = decade. Shaq has been irrelevant since 05.

[catch24]

No perimeter player has been as lucky as Kobe. Yes, there is a certain amount of luck that goes into any legacy, that's a given. But in Kobe's case, his luck has allowed him to become more overrated than his actual worth. First by lucking his way up into the Lakers after being drafted, with Shaq, Phil et al then by being the benefactor of one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history. If there's another perimeter player who has had that kind of luck two times in a career point him out to me.

Never said he wouldn't play for a relevant team again, but that Pau trade really pushed the Lakers over the top as far as talent compared to the rest of the league. Had that not gone down, he may have played for some good to great teams, but I doubt it would be with the kind of dominant talent the Lakers have now. There would have been more parity. And I don't think Kobe wins unless his teams have overwhelming talent compared to the rest. He's not that type of player, though his fans insist he is. Hell, they almost lost to the Rockets last year. No way they beat them without Pau.

Anyway, things happened the way they did and good for him but IMO it's silly not to take all of that into account.

Everything you've said has been taken into account by Laker/Kobe fans in general. Nothing in your post is enlightening dude, sorry. Michael Jordan is lucky Phil Jackson, the assistant coach during '89, took over as head coach implementing the Triangle Offense. Prior to that, Jordan was a one man offense (sort of like Lebron is today with Cleveland). Had Pippen never developed, working on his game, Jordan wouldn't of had anywhere near 6 Final Mvps. What would of happened if Jerry Krause traded Jordan during the late 80's (there was a lot of speculation at that time -- management saw Jordan being too ball dominant, and wanted a change). What if Pippen was traded during the late 90's (another rumor)? What if Magic Johnson wasn't drafted by the Lakers? Would Kareem of had the opportunity to win that second Finals MVP? Would he have had 4-5 Final appearances during the 80's?

What if Wilt Chamberlain decided to play in those last 5 minutes of game 7 in the '69 Finals vs. Russell's Celtics? The Lakers lost by 2, but had Wilt played, one can only imagine they'd of came out with a W vs. an older Celtic team, giving Wilt his second title (overall 3 if we count 1972). Speaking of Final MVP's, what if they, along with DPOY's were around then? Russell would have a handful, knowing that Wilt played for stats, he'd of probably played "tougher" during the Finals knowing there was an individual accolade highlighting your series. It'd be interesting to see how these legacies would of panned out if the hardware today was available. I can go on and on, point is, every top talent has had lady luck on their side at some certain point of their career. Some more than others? Sure, but going by your logic, Jordan is lucky he didn't have to go vs. the 60's Celtics or superstars attaining accolades that hadn't existed yet.

[YAWN]

The only case Kobe has for being called the player of the decade is through image. He's not been the best player, winner or most consistent. Yet, he's been the biggest name in the sport over the last ten years. No player has been the topic of as many conversations as Kobe. Not Shaq. Not LeBron. Certainly not Tim Duncan.

He was arguably top 5 every year of the past decade on both sides of the court. (the first year and one in the middle he may have been top 7) That can't be said for Duncan towards the end.

This wasnt take the players who played in the 2000s, grab their 10 best years and compare them. It was player of that specific decade.

[YAWN]

Still, in that first half, Shaq was better than Kobe or Duncan have been at any time.

again, you are misunderstanding what everyone went by on player of the "decade".

dec

[Kurosawa0]

So what. Player of the decade = decade. Shaq has been irrelevant since 05.

He was most dominant of the decade. He won four rings in this decade. 3 as a team's best player. That's equal to Duncan and two more than Kobe.

If for half of the decade he was far better than anyone else was at any part of the decade, he has a case. As far as strictly as a player, he has a better case than Kobe. It's hard to say you're the best player for a decade when you were only the best player on your own team for half of it.

[RajonKGcelts]

PLEEZEBELIEVE is my favorite poster. and im not even joking.

[Kurosawa0]

[QUOTE=YAWN]again, you are misunderstanding what everyone went by on player of the "decade".

dec

[YAWN]

So, Michael Jordan couldn't have been the player of the 1990's because he only played seven out of the ten years?

different situation.. Shaq fell off for an entire half. Who accomplished more than jordan in the 90s?

[GollyImSoGully]

He was most dominant of the decade. He won four rings in this decade. 3 as a team's best player. That's equal to Duncan and two more than Kobe.

If for half of the decade he was far better than anyone else was at any part of the decade, he has a case. As far as strictly as a player, he has a better case than Kobe. It's hard to say you're the best player for a decade when you were only the best player on your own team for half of it.

Jesus..do you know what a decade is? Big difference between best player in this decade and player OF the decade.

[Kurosawa0]

Jesus..do you know what a decade is? Big difference between best player in this decade and player OF the decade.

No shit! It's the player who owned the decade. You can't say that Shaq doesn't have a case for that.

Make it simple. Give me one player with more rings and MVPs in this decade...

[Kurosawa0]

Who accomplished more than jordan in the 90s?

Who accomplished more than Shaq in this decade?

[GollyImSoGully]

No shit! It's the player who owned the decade. You can't say that Shaq doesn't have a case for that.

Make it simple. Give me one player with more rings and MVPs in this decade...

Do you not understand that Shaq was IRRELEVANT for 5 years this decade? Half the decade he wasn't a top 5-10 player. :banghead:

What's so hard to understand? You're clearly confused here.

[Kurosawa0]

The thing that's funny is that I actually think Tim Duncan is the player of the decade, but Shaq certainly has a case.

[Amil23]

So Kobe was a sidekick for the first 4 years of the decade,his team was irrelevant for 3 straight years after that and im supposed to believe Kobe was the best of the decade GTFO.

[Kurosawa0]

Do you not understand that Shaq was IRRELEVANT for 5 years this decade? Half the decade he wasn't a top 5-10 player. :banghead:

What's so hard to understand? You're clearly confused here.

But he was arguably more relevant in five years than Duncan or Kobe for the entire ten. It's not about longevity. It's about which player defines the last ten years more than any other. Kobe's not that guy.

[chazzy]

So far this thread has covered...

Kobe declining
Kobe's luck
Kobe vs Lebron
Kobe vs Lebron in the clutch
Player of the decade

Sticky this, so everyone can vent their feelings about these important topics whenever they want, and not fill the main board with multiple threads endlessly discussing these. This is great, keep it going. Let's see if we can hit all the juicy points.

[GollyImSoGully]

So Kobe was a sidekick for the first 4 years of the decade,his team was irrelevant for 3 straight years after that and im supposed to believe Kobe was the best of the decade GTFO.

Kobe was still putting first option numbers.

Shaq's team was irrelevant for two years with the Heat and two years with the Suns and he wasn't even sidekick, more like 3rd option. Nice logic there buddy.

[GollyImSoGully]

But he was arguably more relevant in five years than Duncan or Kobe for the entire ten. It's not about longevity. It's about which player defines the last ten years more than any other. Kobe's not that guy.

No he wasn't. Don't make sh!t up like it's some fact. :oldlol:

[Clocian-IGN]

:roll: o man, u guys fell for it. I bow down to plzbelieve :oldlol:

[Kurosawa0]

No he wasn't. Don't make sh!t up like it's some fact. :oldlol:

He won three straight titles as the team's best player. In that time he was easily one of the five most dominate players ever. Show me what Kobe has done that even remotely equals that.

He was the best player on the only team of this decade that really claim be a dynasty.

[YAWN]

Who accomplished more than Shaq in this decade?

tim duncan and kobe bryant.

[Kurosawa0]

:roll: o man, u guys fell for it. I bow down to plzbelieve :oldlol:

You guys do realize that online status doesn't mean anything, right?

[miller-time]

I think the only player who ISN'T declining after turning 30 is Chauncey Billups. And he wasn't even logging HUGE minutes his first 5-6 years in the NBA.

nash?

[Kurosawa0]

tim duncan and kobe bryant.

Shaq, four rings and one MVP
Kobe, four rings and one MVP
Duncan, three rings and two MVPs

I'm not seeing where "more" comes into that.

[YAWN]

But he was arguably more relevant in five years than Duncan or Kobe for the entire ten. It's not about longevity. It's about which player defines the last ten years more than any other. Kobe's not that guy.
:oldlol: are you shaqattacks alias?

during the 2nd and 3rd titles of the 3 peat kobe was the third best player in the world. you can't discount that. A guy puts up 30/7/6 during a playoff run and you want to just act like it was all shaq :lol

[RazorBaLade]

So this is pretty much the physical glass ceiling for superstars who came right out of high school, correct?

Kobe stats next year will be: 23.5/4/4/44%

Is he even top-10 in the league at that point?

WHOA you can see the future?!?! Please tell me, do Cavs go 74-8 next year?

[Amil23]

Shaq, 3 finals mvp and one MVP
Kobe, 1 finals mvp and one MVP
Duncan, 2 finals mvps and two MVPs

I'm not seeing where "more" comes into that.
That is more telling

[Kurosawa0]

:oldlol: are you shaqattacks alias?

during the 2nd and 3rd titles of the 3 peat kobe was the third best player in the world. you can't discount that. A guy puts up 30/7/6 during a playoff run and you want to just act like it was all shaq :lol

It wasn't all Shaq. Mike's 6 wasn't all him. Russell's 11 weren't all on him either. Still, like Shaq was on the Lakers' 3, they were the best player on the team.

[Kurosawa0]

I'm sorry. You don't have to believe that Shaq was the player of the decade, but he's certainly in the conversation. To pretend that he's not is just stupid.

[thejumpa]

:roll: o man, u guys fell for it. I bow down to plzbelieve :oldlol:

haha THIS. He always gets you kids yapping back and forth....damn near every thread.

omg Kobe put up 30/7/6...3 rings...omg Shaq was the man, not Kobe....omg look at the stats!!!

:roll: ol clown ass fools...

[YAWN]

Shaq, four rings and one MVP
Kobe, four rings and one MVP
Duncan, three rings and two MVPs

I'm not seeing where "more" comes into that.

duncan 10x all nba
duncan 10x all d

kobe 10x all nba
kobe 9x all d

shaq 7x all nba
shaq 3x all d

[Kurosawa0]

duncan 10x all nba
duncan 10x all d

kobe 10x all nba
kobe 9x all d

shaq 7x all nba
shaq 3x all d

Those are nice, but um, yeah I'll go with MVP trophies and rings as being bigger achievements. Off the top of your head, how many rings and MVPs did MJ win? Now do the same for me with All-team selections.

[YAWN]

I'm sorry. You don't have to believe that Shaq was the player of the decade, but he's certainly in the conversation. To pretend that he's not is just stupid.

he is NOT in the conversation when you are looking at solely at the 2000s. I think the majority of sane basketball fans can see that there is a gap between duncan/kobe and shaq on that particular "award".

[YAWN]

Those are nice, but um, yeah I'll go with MVP trophies and rings as being bigger achievements. Off the top of your head, how many rings and MVPs did MJ win? Now do the same for me with All-team selections.

i give up, its clear you can't comprehend what that poll/award was talking about and you're too hard headed to understand. have a good night.

[Kurosawa0]

he is NOT in the conversation when you are looking at solely at the 2000s. I think the majority of sane basketball fans can see that there is a gap between duncan/kobe and shaq on that particular "award".

So, by sane, you mean discarding what he did from 2000 to 2005 because of what he didn't do in from 2006-2010? That's sane? If it happened in the decade, it all counts.

[Knoe Itawl]

Everything you've said has been taken into account by Laker/Kobe fans in general. Nothing in your post is enlightening dude, sorry. Michael Jordan is lucky Phil Jackson, the assistant coach during '89, took over as head coach implementing the Triangle Offense. Prior to that, Jordan was a one man offense (sort of like Lebron is today with Cleveland). Had Pippen never developed, working on his game, Jordan wouldn't of had anywhere near 6 Final Mvps. What would of happened if Jerry Krause traded Jordan during the late 80's (there was a lot of speculation at that time -- management saw Jordan being too ball dominant, and wanted a change). What if Pippen was traded during the late 90's (another rumor)? What if Magic Johnson wasn't drafted by the Lakers? Would Kareem of had the opportunity to win that second Finals MVP? Would he have had 4-5 Final appearances during the 80's?

What if Wilt Chamberlain decided to play in those last 5 minutes of game 7 in the '69 Finals vs. Russell's Celtics? The Lakers lost by 2, but had Wilt played, one can only imagine they'd of came out with a W vs. an older Celtic team, giving Wilt his second title (overall 3 if we count 1972). Speaking of Final MVP's, what if they, along with DPOY's were around then? Russell would have a handful, knowing that Wilt played for stats, he'd of probably played "tougher" during the Finals knowing there was an individual accolade highlighting your series. It'd be interesting to see how these legacies would of panned out if the hardware today was available. I can go on and on, point is, every top talent has had lady luck on their side at some certain point of their career. Some more than others? Sure, but going by your logic, Jordan is lucky he didn't have to go vs. the 60's Celtics or superstars attaining accolades that hadn't existed yet.

I already said that a certain amount of luck goes into any legacy. However, all that stuff you wrote is nothing like stumbling onto the arguably most dominant low post presence in his prime along with the arguably greatest coach of all time (with great role players) and THEN after that era being the benefactor of what is considered to be one of the most (if not THE most) lopsided/inexplicable traded in NBA history. To his credit, Kobe still had to play those games, still contributed. I'm not even getting into level of competition, blah blah blah. I'm talking about an 18 year old drafted to one of the lowest teams in the league forcing his way onto one of the top 2 greatest franchises of all time and THEN once that dominant team wanes, getting a SECOND opportunity by the Gasol trade. Most players don't even get ONE of those breaks, much less TWO. But like I said, it is what it is but IMO opinion Kobe's just not the type of great player that would have taken a mediocre franchise to great heights but he's praised like one, and I've just never seen it. Like I said, great player but he's been force fed to us as this other level player and it just aint true IMO.

[MiseryCityTexas]

List of players to come straight out of high school who were still in the NBA at age 30

Moses Malone-peaked at 26 had a stready decline afterwards. Was a shell of himself by 30

Darryl Dawkins-peaked at 24. Went from averaging 17 7 on 59% shooting at 27 to out of the league at age 30

Shawn Kemp-peaked at 26. Went from averaging 21 and 9 on 49% shooting at 28 to 7 and 4 on 41% shooting at 31

Kevin Garnett-peaked at 26. Went from 1st team all NBA at 28 to basically done at 32.

Tracy McGrady-peaked at 23. You know the story

Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23. Suffered from injuries virtually every year for the last 3.



I must laugh at the LeBron fans that claim he has yet to peak and he has at least 7-8 years left in his prime.


lebron already kinda lost the explosiveness in his hops and hes only in his mid 20s. he was a better dunker in highschool and his first three seasons in the nba.

[Kurosawa0]

i give up, its clear you can't comprehend what that poll/award was talking about and you're too hard headed to understand. have a good night.

This ****ing ridiculous. I acknowledge that he sucked the last few years. Still, what he did prior IN THIS DECADE was substantial enough for him to be in the conversation.

[YAWN]

So, by sane, you mean discarding what he did from 2000 to 2005 because of what he didn't do in from 2006-2010? That's sane? If it happened in the decade, it all counts.

yes it does. but 5 great years is not > than 10 great years by the other 2 guys. That is why every person who voted on that thing, every nba analyst, every nba player, and most nba fans will tell you duncan/kobe were the players of THE decade.

[gts]

This ****ing ridiculous. I acknowledge that he sucked the last few years. Still, what he did prior IN THIS DECADE was substantial enough for him to be in the conversation.
no it wasn't because even when shaq was at his peak duncan wasn't that far behind him, shaq was better but not THAT much better that it erases five years of mediocre play. not in award for a 10 year span

[Kurosawa0]

yes it does. but 5 great years is not > than 10 great years by the other 2 guys. That is why every person who voted on that thing, every nba analyst, every nba player, and most nba fans will tell you duncan/kobe were the players of THE decade.

I already said that I picked Duncan. The thing, Shaq's in the conversation. Just like Kobe's in the MVP discussion now. Is he the MVP? No, but he deserves mention. Shaq won 40% of this decades' championships. That means his name is in the discussion. Sorry.

[Kurosawa0]

no it wasn't because even when shaq was at his peak duncan wasn't that far behind him, shaq was better but not THAT much better that it erases five years of mediocre play. not in award for a 10 year span

Then MJ couldn't be the player of 1990's if he wasn't the best in every year of that decade. He missed three years. At least Shaq played all ten years.

[Kurosawa0]

Okay, if you were to making a ballot for the player of the 2000's, you'd leave Shaq off?

[dr8ked]

Oh, OK, you're just another delusional Bryant fan. I see. I was thinking of you being somewhat reasonable. He does NOT have a case over Duncan. Shaq either, but definitely not Duncan (and the only reason Shaq isn't inarguable is because he overlapped from the 90s into the 00s).


kobe was drafted in 1996

[catch24]

I already said that a certain amount of luck goes into any legacy. However, all that stuff you wrote is nothing like stumbling onto the arguably most dominant low post presence in his prime along with the arguably greatest coach of all time (with great role players) and THEN after that era being the benefactor of what is considered to be one of the most (if not THE most) lopsided/inexplicable traded in NBA history. To his credit, Kobe still had to play those games, still contributed. I'm not even getting into level of competition, blah blah blah. I'm talking about an 18 year old drafted to one of the lowest teams in the league forcing his way onto one of the top 2 greatest franchises of all time and THEN once that dominant team wanes, getting a SECOND opportunity by the Gasol trade. Most players don't even get ONE of those breaks, much less TWO. But like I said, it is what it is but IMO opinion Kobe's just not the type of great player that would have taken a mediocre franchise to great heights but he's praised like one, and I've just never seen it. Like I said, great player but he's been force fed to us as this other level player and it just aint true IMO.

To each his own. As I've said though, you can argue "luck" for just about every Top 10 player. I'll admit, Kobe does get overrated. When it pertains to his skills, fans tend to put him on this unreachable pedestal, using it as a crutch hiding his deficiencies. That's probably my only gripe with him, other than that, I believe you know my stance.

[L.A. Jazz]

the best thing about Kobe, KG and others is, that they are hated because they have lots of fans who think they are the best. Neither of them said anything about beeing better then Jordan or Duncan. But their fans and sports writers use that every single day.

I enjoy(ed) watching both of them and without comparing them every minute i saw lots of good basketball and thats what i want.

[PleezeBelieve]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

[catch24]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

C

[AirJordan&Magic]

Kobe didn't peak at 23.

Kobe Bryant peaked in the 2007-08 season.

[YAWN]

Okay, if you were to making a ballot for the player of the 2000's, you'd leave Shaq off?

No he would be on, unless there was a rule that the ballot could only have 2 people.. But anyone that would vote for him over the other two would either not have the brain capacity to grasp what the question is asking, or would be a shaq homer.

[madmax]

well, these guys are ancient in terms of basketball age anyway, so that is to be expected...to Kobe's credit he still is TOP 10 player in the league, KG has fallen off a lot more though

[MaxFly]

KG is obviously declining, but I believe there are still a few good years of basketball in him and I'm not ready to write him off yet. As for Bryant, he's averaging something like 27/5/5 with a little more than a steal and a half a game... His athleticism has declined to an extent, but it's quite foolish to say that he's "breaking down."

[Bigsmoke]

Kobe isnt declining dude, his finger is broken.

[MK2V1GP]

Haters gonna hate.

Kobe falling apart :no:

cxck suckers gonna cxck suck :D

[ShaqAttack3234]

Moses Malone-peaked at 26 had a stready decline afterwards. Was a shell of himself by 30

Moses peaked at 27 and was a 20/12 player at 33 and a 19/10 player at 34.


Kevin Garnett-peaked at 26. Went from 1st team all NBA at 28 to basically done at 32

Garnett peaked at 27


Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23. Suffered from injuries virtually every year for the last 3.

Kobe peaked at 29

All of those players peaked at the same age or later than Michael Jordan(26-27), Shaq(27), Patrick Ewing(27), Magic Johnson(27) and Tim Duncan(26) off the top my head.

[MK2V1GP]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

^ Greatest accomplishment in your life???

[RaininThrees]

Kobe's getting old. He's not going to be able to kill it every night anymore. I actually wonder if the reason he's had so many little injuries lately is because he tried to go all out at the beginning of the season. Kobe's played over 1,000 games and nearly 37,000 minutes. No player in history has ever played that much and not started to seriously decline.


I tend to agree with this. I think decline has less to do with age, and more to do with minutes/miles on the legs of the player. These guys who enter into the league young and consistently get big minutes at a young age are going to decline at a younger age than a guy who went through college (and thus played less games during those years). I think Simmons had a whole column on the minutes/miles thing.

It's nothing for a guy like Kobe or KG or anyone to be ashamed of, either... They've both had HOF careers.

[RaininThrees]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

Try not to throw your shoulder out patting yourself on the back.

[LA_Showtime]

Why are people so surprised that Kobe's slowing down? He's slowed down the past couple of seasons, so it's only natural for him to continue to decline.

Regardless, there's no one I'd rather have on my team besides LeBron. He might not be the player he used to be, but he's pretty damn good. Only 6 months ago he was putting up between 30-35 ppg on 50% and playing the best basketball of his career.

[godofgods]

Kobe can average 1 PPG and there will be idiots who think he's top 3 in the league.

[Bandito]

Why are people so surprised that Kobe's slowing down? He's slowed down the past couple of seasons, so it's only natural for him to continue to decline.

Regardless, there's no one I'd rather have on my team besides LeBron. He might not be the player he used to be, but he's pretty damn good. Only 6 months ago he was putting up between 30-35 ppg on 50% and playing the best basketball of his career.
He isn't? Is he chucking shots now?

[dallaslonghorn]

It's similar to RB's in the NFL; the guys who get the most carries in college (Ron Dayne, Ricky Williams) tend not to be as successful in the pros.

There's only so many hits you can take/cuts-jumps you can make on your knees, before they start to wear out.

LeBron is putting a lot of miles on his body no doubt; he's a Ferrari engine in the body of a Mack Truck. The good thing for him is he can transition easily to playing in the post as he gets older; I could see him being an All-NBA 4 even as he loses his athleticism.

[Artillery]

Kobe can average 1 PPG and there will be idiots who think he's top 3 in the league.

The problem is that the media propagates the myth that Kobe is on the same level as Lebron(just look at those retarded MVPuppets commercials or the schlock ESPN writes).

[Bandito]

It's similar to RB's in the NFL; the guys who get the most carries in college (Ron Dayne, Ricky Williams) tend not to be as successful in the pros.

There's only so many hits you can take/cuts-jumps you can make on your knees, before they start to wear out.

LeBron is putting a lot of miles on his body no doubt; he's a Ferrari engine in the body of a Mack Truck. The good thing for him is he can transition easily to playing in the post as he gets older; I could see him being an All-NBA 4 even as he loses his athleticism.
Yeah right. As soon as he learn how to make a jump shot:roll: :roll:

[DukeDelonte13]

Yeah right. As soon as he learn how to make a jump shot:roll: :roll:


Lebron has a PER of 44 while at the 4 this year.

That's unreal.

[Kurosawa0]

No he would be on, unless there was a rule that the ballot could only have 2 people.. But anyone that would vote for him over the other two would either not have the brain capacity to grasp what the question is asking, or would be a shaq homer.

The guy achieved in the most important area as much as any other player of the decade. There would be nothing wrong with voting for him. I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you would insult someone who would.

[lakerfreak]

I think at 31-years of age: KG > Kobe

I'm really not impressed with Kobe at this point.

Great point!!!

[crisoner]

I can't believe this thread is at 10 pages....

I think I'm gunna take a break from ISH and let the stupidity run it's course.

[thejumpa]

I can't believe this thread is at 10 pages....

I think I'm gunna take a break from ISH and let the stupidity run it's course.

I've been thinking the same thing. It seems that every thread turns into a childish argument and no one can actually discuss basketball in a civil manner. The sensitivity around here has been at an all-time high....

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

what did that have to do with anything?
http://i49.tinypic.com/2mcd9ph.jpg
idiot newbies, have no clue lebron came out of high school like kg and kobe.

[YAWN]

The guy achieved in the most important area as much as any other player of the decade. There would be nothing wrong with voting for him. I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you would insult someone who would.


anyone that would vote for him over the other two would either not have the brain capacity to grasp what the question is asking

..

[AMISTILLILL]

First off, Kobe is not falling apart. He's DECLINING

You say potato I say patato.

822 posts in two months and 90% are likely belligerent Kobe worship.

[AMISTILLILL]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

Most embarrassing thing I've ever read.

[catch24]

You say potato I say patato.

822 posts in two months and 90% are likely belligerent Kobe worship.

Don't f*ck with his man, if you know what's good for you!

[lefthook00]

Ya'll are just kicking him while he's down. He is banged up. He was scoring 35PPG FROM THE POST earlier this season. Did you guys even watch last nights game? He was attacking the sh*t out of the rim b/c his lower leg is finally better. He got his quickness back. He will still have some shooting and ball control problems until the fingers heal completely. That's just what it is.

[Kurosawa0]

..

I'll say it again: Then you can't say MJ was the player of the 90's because he didn't play all ten. You're the one who's misunderstanding the question. The question is which player, over the last ten years, had the best career. Shaq is very much in the conversation.

[Dave3]

Ya'll are just kicking him while he's down. He is banged up. He was scoring 35PPG FROM THE POST earlier this season. Did you guys even watch last nights game? He was attacking the sh*t out of the rim b/c his lower leg is finally better. He got his quickness back. He will still have some shooting and ball control problems until the fingers heal completely. That's just what it is.
He was playing amazing in the beginning of the year. He was not scoring 35 ppg for more than a week though lol...

[TryToBeUnbias]

Fail thread .

[YAWN]

I'll say it again: Then you can't say MJ was the player of the 90's because he didn't play all ten. You're the one who's misunderstanding the question. The question is which player, over the last ten years, had the best career. Shaq is very much in the conversation.

name me a player who has a case over the 90s decade over jordan..

duncan and kobe both have a clear decisive edge over shaq when ONLY accounting the 10 year period of the 2000s.

the fact that you and the shaq homer are the only people on this message bpard that argue for shaq in this particular scenario lead me to the conclusion that the one misunderstanding the question hand is yourself..

[Kurosawa0]

name me a player who has a case over the 90s decade over jordan..

duncan and kobe both have a clear decisive edge over shaq when ONLY accounting the 10 year period of the 2000s.

the fact that you and the shaq homer are the only people on this message bpard that argue for shaq in this particular scenario lead me to the conclusion that the one misunderstanding the question hand is yourself..

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165885

In this thread, I count eight.

[ShaqAttack3234]

name me a player who has a case over the 90s decade over jordan..

duncan and kobe both have a clear decisive edge over shaq when ONLY accounting the 10 year period of the 2000s.

the fact that you and the shaq homer are the only people on this message bpard that argue for shaq in this particular scenario lead me to the conclusion that the one misunderstanding the question hand is yourself..

Look at the best player of the decade thread, quite a few people chose Shaq and I think Kenny Smith did as well. I'm fine with you picking Kobe for the entire decade, but it's laughable to suggest Shaq doesn't have an argument. Shaq was better than Kobe through the 2004-2005 season, that's 6 seasons of the decade, Kobe was better from 2005-2006 through the end of the decade. And Shaq easily had the better peak. To act like Shaq doesn't have an argument is laughable.

[Kurosawa0]

To act like Shaq doesn't have an argument is laughable.

Exactly. I'm not picking him, but he has a case. Anytime a player wins four rings in a decade, he's in the discussion for player of the decade. To you, it's more important that he sucked for five years than the fact that he dominated the previous five years.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Exactly. I'm not picking him, but he has a case. Anytime a player wins four rings in a decade, he's in the discussion for player of the decade. To you, it's more important that he sucked for five years than the fact that he dominated the previous five years.

And really, he was still pretty damn good for the final four years. Averaged 20/9/2/2/60 FG% in 31 mpg on a championship team in '06, led Miami to a 16-7 record w/o Wade in 2007, averaged 13/11 with Phoenix in 28 mpg after they told him to concentrate on rebounding in 2008 and averaged 18/8/2 on 61% shooting in 30 mpg in 2009. Not on Kobe's level during that time, but consider that Shaq was better through 2005(6 seasons), easily had the beter peak and my opinion is certainly reasonable.

[BallPhunk]

I think at 31-years of age: KG > Kobe

I'm really not impressed with Kobe at this point.

Crazed troll who occasionally makes good points

I see "occasionally" isn't visiting us today...

[guy]

And really, he was still pretty damn good for the final four years. Averaged 20/9/2/2/60 FG% in 31 mpg on a championship team in '06, led Miami to a 16-7 record w/o Wade in 2007, averaged 13/11 with Phoenix in 28 mpg after they told him to concentrate on rebounding in 2008 and averaged 18/8/2 on 61% shooting in 30 mpg in 2009. Not on Kobe's level during that time, but consider that Shaq was better through 2005(6 seasons), easily had the beter peak and my opinion is certainly reasonable.

When these "player of the decade" arguments come up, its kind of misleading to go by just every ten years since guys like Shaq might get screwed. It would be better to go by every 5 years for 10 years. Confusing? I mean like this:

55-64 - Russell
60-69 - Russell
65-74 - Wilt
70-79 - Kareem
75-84 - Kareem
80-89 - Bird (or Magic?)
85-94 - Jordan
90-99 - Jordan
95-04 - Shaq
00-09 - Duncan
05-14 - Lebron (just predicting)

IMO Kobe has never been as dominant for a 10 year period as any of the above (besides Lebron obviously).

[YAWN]

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165885

In this thread, I count eight.

kids see the titles and finals mvps in the OP and forget about the concept of what a decade is.

best player of 2000-2005 = Shaq with duncan behind, kobe and a couple others have arguments for the 3/4 spots.
2000-2010 = duncan/kobe with shaq in 3rd.

[YAWN]

Look at the best player of the decade thread, quite a few people chose Shaq and I think Kenny Smith did as well. I'm fine with you picking Kobe for the entire decade, but it's laughable to suggest Shaq doesn't have an argument. Shaq was better than Kobe through the 2004-2005 season, that's 6 seasons of the decade, Kobe was better from 2005-2006 through the end of the decade. And Shaq easily had the better peak. To act like Shaq doesn't have an argument is laughable.

sure there is an argument, though in the end he falls in 3rd to any non biased person. we've been over this topic before and frankly im tired of it so i won't go into it too much... when shaq was better than kobe during the decade, kobe was still a top 5 player in the league (save 1 or 2 years depending on who you ask). when kobe was better than shaq, shaq could maybe crack a big shaq fans top 20.

[ShaqAttack3234]

sure there is an argument, though in the end he falls in 3rd to any non biased person. we've been over this topic before and frankly im tired of it so i won't go into it too much... when shaq was better than kobe during the decade, kobe was still a top 5 player in the league (save 1 or 2 years depending on who you ask). when kobe was better than shaq, shaq could maybe crack a big shaq fans top 20.

First of all, Shaq was easily top 20 in 2006, that shouldn't be a question. He was a huge reason why Miami won a championship, even though Wade was their number 1 guy, Miami was just 10-11 with Wade and without Shaq. He was still arguably top 10.

Back to the point. That still doesn't change the fact that Shaq was ahead of Kobe more seasons and for the first few years of the decade by a considerable margin and his best seasons easily beat Kobe's best. So no, not every unbiased person will have Shaq at 3rd. You argument is no more valid than mine.

[Kurosawa0]

kids see the titles and finals mvps in the OP and forget about the concept of what a decade is.

best player of 2000-2005 = Shaq with duncan behind, kobe and a couple others have arguments for the 3/4 spots.
2000-2010 = duncan/kobe with shaq in 3rd.

So, then we have to penalize Kobe too. He wasn't the best player on his team for half of the decade. That means only Duncan remotely has a case by your logic.

Seriously, you don't have an argument anymore. It just sounds like you don't Shaq. Which is fine, but come on...

[YAWN]

So, then we have to penalize Kobe too. He wasn't the best player on his team for half of the decade. That means only Duncan remotely has a case by your logic.

Seriously, you don't have an argument anymore. It just sounds like you don't Shaq. Which is fine, but come on...

ugh what? did you not read what i said in the other post? Kobe was a top player even when shaq was beasting. There was a gap, but aside from the first title year it wasn't too large. im a big shaq fan, liked him ever since he was in orlando, but when looking at this within the constraints of that specific 10 year period he comes in 3rd.

[YAWN]

Back to the point. That still doesn't change the fact that Shaq was ahead of Kobe more seasons and for the first few years of the decade by a considerable margin
aside from the first year, tell me which year shaq ranked in comparison to kobe that is such a huge margin..




and his best seasons easily beat Kobe's best.

this wasn't a who had the best year in the 2000s decade or else yes shaq would be unquestionably 1st. kobe had some good seasons for a sg as well 30/7/6 and 35/5/5 is nothing to sneeze at. 30/14 was clearly amazing, but the guys play different positions.



So no, not every unbiased person will have Shaq at 3rd. You argument is no more valid than mine.

the majority of unbiased persons that comprehend what that question is actually asking would..

[Kurosawa0]

ugh what? did you not read what i said in the other post? Kobe was a top player even when shaq was beasting. There was a gap, but aside from the first title year it wasn't too large. im a big shaq fan, liked him ever since he was in orlando, but when looking at this within the constraints of that specific 10 year period he comes in 3rd.

Shaq may have declined, but he was still a top player on his teams. In fact, he was still a top five center.

Listen, if you put him third, fine. I put him ahead of Kobe and behind Duncan. Why is that so ridiculous when he achieved at highest level in the decade as much as anyone? The constraints you're putting on the discussion just don't make sense. You could actually argue that Duncan has only been a borderline top ten player over the last three years. His decline started in the decade too. Is that more important than the three rings and two MVPs?

[YAWN]

Shaq may have declined, but he was still a top player on his teams. In fact, he was still a top five center.

Listen, if you put him third, fine. I put him ahead of Kobe and behind Duncan. Why is that so ridiculous when he achieved at highest level in the decade as much as anyone? The constraints you're putting on the discussion just don't make sense. You could actually argue that Duncan has only been a borderline top ten player over the last three years. His decline started in the decade too. Is that more important than the three rings and two MVPs?

duncan is still a top player..hes remained a consistent 20/10 guy every year..

"top 5 center".... this is a conversation of top player of the decade. he wasn't top 20 in many of the seasons.

[Kurosawa0]

"top 5 center".... this is a conversation of top player of the decade. he wasn't top 20 in many of the seasons.

Yet he was arguably the #1 player for more seasons than either Kobe or Duncan.

[YAWN]

Yet he has arguably the #1 player for more seasons than either Kobe or Duncan.

this isn't who had the most seasons as #1. its who was the top player of the entire decade. taking in everything that they did in the decade and excluding everything that did not occur in that specific decade.

When that is done, he winds up at #3. duncan and kobe are the only legit answers to the #1 and #2 spot on this specific topic.

if it was top player of the 3 when taking into account each players best 10 year span, then you will get different results, but it wasn't..

[Kurosawa0]

duncan and kobe are the only legit answers to the #1 and #2 spot on this specific topic.

Obviously that's not true you have several fans, players and writers saying otherwise.

[dough]

Kobe stats next year will be: 23.5/4/4/44%

Is he even top-10 in the league at that point?


is 25/4/4/44% and winning loads of games is breaking down u can break me down anytime you want pleezedaddy.

[Kurosawa0]

is 25/4/4/44% and winning loads of games is breaking down u can break me down anytime you want pleezedaddy.

This is one argument that I find so stupid. When someone says that a player is breaking down it doesn't automatically mean that said player sucks. It means that said player can't physically do everything he could in his prime. You cannot watch Kobe Bryant now and think he's in his athletic prime.

[LA_Showtime]

This is one argument that I find so stupid. When someone says that a player is breaking down it doesn't automatically mean that said player sucks. It means that said player can't physically do everything he could in his prime. You cannot watch Kobe Bryant now and think he's in his athletic prime.

He hasn't been in his athetic prime for a couple of seasons. 2007-2008 he lost a step. Lost another 1/2 step 2008-2009. He looks a lot slower now, although he was playing the best I've ever seen him play earlier in the year when he was healthy.

[Kurosawa0]

He hasn't been in his athetic prime for a couple of seasons. 2007-2008 he lost a step. Lost another 1/2 step 2008-2009. He looks a lot slower now, although he was playing the best I've ever seen him play earlier in the year when he was healthy.

I said this earlier, but is it possible that how hard he was playing in the first two months could've been a big factor in his recent injuries? Maybe he can't go all out like that anymore.

[LA_Showtime]

I said this earlier, but is it possible that how hard he was playing in the first two months could've been a big factor in his recent injuries? Maybe he can't go all out like that anymore.

It probably played a role, although he wasn't exerting that much energy because he was basically setting up in the post, getting the ball, and then shooting. In previous years he had played the role of scorer and distributor. Early in the season he played the role of finisher, and I think that's one reason the Lakers have dropped off offensively.

We'll see how he does in the playoffs. Right now he's trying to find a rhythm and there's a chance he's coasting for the playoffs. Should be interesting to watch.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Kobe could shoot 2-10 every game and they still win the championship while he gets finals MVP.

[dough]

This is one argument that I find so stupid. When someone says that a player is breaking down it doesn't automatically mean that said player sucks. It means that said player can't physically do everything he could in his prime. You cannot watch Kobe Bryant now and think he's in his athletic prime.
its not an argument. its me saying kobe is still head and shoulders above most players in the league and his team is getting better too. its me saying his numbers might be going down but he's still the topdog for a team on its way to another ring. its me saying pleezediddy can break me down anytime.

[kobesabi]

I think at 31-years of age: KG > Kobe

I'm really not impressed with Kobe at this point.
Are we supposed to be surprised in hearing this from Kobe hater?

[YAWN]

Obviously that's not true you have several fans, players and writers saying otherwise.
i didn't hear or read a single one outside of shaq homers on iSH.

[Kurosawa0]

i didn't hear or read a single one outside of shaq homers on iSH.

So, I'm a Shaq homer then?

It's a funny. When this topic was being discussed, every article I read had Shaq in the conversation.

[YAWN]

So, I'm a Shaq homer then?

It's a funny. When this topic was being discussed, every article I read had Shaq in the conversation.
rightfully so, it would be disrespectful to not include him when you also have lebron james on a 4 person ballot.

[samballs]

Kobe will still be relavant in 5 years. I have been a Jazz fan my whole life and the said Karl Malone was done every year after 94, but he had his best seasons in 97-98 and played into his 40's. From everything I have ever heard or read from Kobe is he takes care of himself.

I can't stand the Lakers or Kobe, but Kobe will play and be the best or second best 2 guard for a few more years. He's getting more effiecent and thats what matters when players age.

[Batman]

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/337/zzzzzwhatwh4.gif

[NBASTATMAN]

So this is pretty much the physical glass ceiling for superstars who came right out of high school, correct?

Kobe stats next year will be: 23.5/4/4/44%

Is he even top-10 in the league at that point?


Both may be breaking down but they have great talent around them.. They are their to provide the things that ordinary players cannot provide...

[ProfessorMurder]

Kobe will still be relavant in 5 years. I have been a Jazz fan my whole life and the said Karl Malone was done every year after 94, but he had his best seasons in 97-98 and played into his 40's. From everything I have ever heard or read from Kobe is he takes care of himself.

I can't stand the Lakers or Kobe, but Kobe will play and be the best or second best 2 guard for a few more years. He's getting more effiecent and thats what matters when players age.

Malone started in the NBA at 22, Kobe was 18. He'll be lucky if he gets to 36/37.

[hawksdogsbraves]

A thousand pardons for not being as technical as you would like. A thousand pardons oh great one.

:hammerhead:

falling apart/declining. whatever. Kobe's struggled with his hand, fingers, ankle, back, and probably something else. That would mean his body is falling apart. He IS declining, but that's expected. he's been in the league over 10 years.

I think the only player who ISN'T declining after turning 30 is Chauncey Billups. And he wasn't even logging HUGE minutes his first 5-6 years in the NBA.

And Steve Nash of course. Maybe Jason Kidd as well.

[D.J.]

Out of all the players that went to the NBA straight out of high school, the only player that is still elite 14-15 years in is Kobe. Even at present, Kobe is still putting up 27/5/5. As far as LeBron, he is peaking right now. His prime could last another 5-7 years if he is lucky. But, his decline will be much faster and more noticable than Kobe's. Kobe's game is more finesse, where as LeBron's is more wear and tear on his knees. If LeBron masters his post game, his prime could last longer since he could rest his legs a bit more.

[ZeN]

Kobe will still be relavant in 5 years. I have been a Jazz fan my whole life and the said Karl Malone was done every year after 94, but he had his best seasons in 97-98 and played into his 40's. From everything I have ever heard or read from Kobe is he takes care of himself.

Thats what I will happen also.

[zizozain]

are you having a good summer ashblly ?


BTW
Kobe and KG met in the finals after 2 months of posting this lol

backfired again ..like '' remember when jordan and phil jax were 2/3 down''

:roll:

[KoRn]

hahaha. :roll:

[StacksOnDeck]

Damn backfired...

[macpierce]

shots fired!!!

[mamba24]

He does have a valid point...i suggest you save your kobe is old comments for the nba finals agains the Heat. I'll make sure you get courtside tickets just to shout that into his ear.

PB/ashbelly : kobe your old, you suck and soo on.

Kobe : blank stare he gave chris rock

[zizozain]

This f*cking thread got 1200+ views in two hours. :oldlol:

And you wonder why I'm me.

I'm the '4-day, 15k-viewed Thread That Was So Huge The Mods Had To Lock For No Good Reason' King of ISH.

Props to me.

yet again Kobe and KG met in the finals after 2 months of posting this garbage LOL

Props to King of ISH chumps

[Eldrunko247]

Kobe is lucky he didn't get a season ending knee injury like Garnett
KG was dumb enough to jump after every ball thrown towards the rim after a dead play. I'm sure unnecessary wear and tear on his knees.

[game3524]

:roll:

[Mr. Jabbar]

Kobe & KG are done. ....2 months later: Kobe vs KG NBA Finals. Classic.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

SEVERE knee injury is BY FAR worse than broken fingers. Broken fingers can heal with a little bit of time. A severe knee injury like KG suffered, at his age, has practically killed his final seasons. If he hadn't suffered that injury last year, I'm positive he'd still be the same player he was his first season in Boston. 19/11/5 type of guy instead of the 14/7/2 he's putting up now.

KG is also the active leader in minutes played, isn't he? He's also top 20 ALL TIME in total minutes played....and he's still in his "early" 30's. Same thing will prolly happen to LeBron. I guess thats the negative in being a 6'11" freak who looks like a toothpick, you're career ends sooner.

Tmac came out of HS and he's fallin apart, same with Jermaine O'Neal, KG, Kobe, Darius Miles (hehe), etc, etc.
fixed

[Yung D-Will]

KG was dumb enough to jump after every ball thrown towards the rim after a dead play. I'm sure unnecessary wear and tear on his knees.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :cheers:

[no pun intended]

23.5 ppg for Kobe next season? That is hard for me to believe.

[Lakers13]

Dude just dropped 27 regular season and 29 post season, Im sure he will drop 26-28 again this season. He's not quite done yet.

[Ikill]

23.5 ppg for Kobe next season? That is hard for me to believe.
that is a bit low i see more 24 or 25 he doesn't need to score over 25 ppg he will get hit by more injuries anyway

[Soundwave]

Hard to say because Kobe can score based on athleticism, but then again, he can get points just off shooting Js/3s/post fade aways.

So I don't think his scoring will decline that rapidly.

Finger injuries heal with time.

The knee surgery and back stuff is what I'd keep an eye on. If that becomes chronic, then he's got a big problem.

[Solid Snake]

List of players to come straight out of high school who were still in the NBA at age 30

Moses Malone-peaked at 26 had a stready decline afterwards. Was a shell of himself by 30

Darryl Dawkins-peaked at 24. Went from averaging 17 7 on 59% shooting at 27 to out of the league at age 30

Shawn Kemp-peaked at 26. Went from averaging 21 and 9 on 49% shooting at 28 to 7 and 4 on 41% shooting at 31

Kevin Garnett-peaked at 26. Went from 1st team all NBA at 28 to basically done at 32.

Tracy McGrady-peaked at 23. You know the story

Kobe Bryant-peaked at 23. Suffered from injuries virtually every year for the last 3.



I must laugh at the LeBron fans that claim he has yet to peak and he has at least 7-8 years left in his prime.


Oh come on, don't pretend that was all due to age, most of it was due to his drug addiction.

[G-Funk]

Am I the only who thinks that Kobe will shoot a higher % this year?

[Mr. Jabbar]

Am I the only who thinks that Kobe will shoot a higher % this year?

You are not alone.

[Durant35]

25 ppg on 43 FG%.

Retire at the age of 35 yrs.old ( 18th NBA Season)

[KB24]

kobes played an insane amount of games at his age. I wonder how many playoffs games hes played being in the finals 7 times.

[zizozain]

kobes played an insane amount of games at his age. I wonder how many playoffs games hes played being in the finals 7 times.

#1 Robert Horry at 244 games #2 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar at 237 games #3 Shaquille O'Neal at 214 games #4 Scottie Pippen at 208 games

kobe 199 games

it's possible that he will
-play 60,000 minutes (regular season plus playoffs),
-score 35,000 points (the most by any guard ever),
-play 250-plus playoff games (the record is 244),
-pass 6,000 playoff points (also a record)
-win seven titles .
-lead the Lakers the to be the team with most NBA championship titles.

and If he plays at a high level through his late 30s,
he has a real chance to pass Kareem’s 38,387 points

[Allstar24]

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

These threads pop up every year, since 08.

08- regular season MVP
09- finals MVP
10- finals MVP

I can see that KB is totally breaking down. How does it feel to be wrong all the time?

[jjayfive]

kobe started the season hot last year, then his age caught up.. if he were smart, he should use his teamates more...

[jjayfive]

KG at 31-32 looks really bad.. he was missing open lay ups and dunks.. i don't think he averaged more than 5 rebounds in the finals (i could be wrong).. so far, kobe looks better at this age..

[PowerGlove]

why is this even a thread.. yeah a top 2 player in the league is broken down. :oldlol:
LOL @ top 2.

GTFO.

:roll:

[branslowski]

LOL @ top 2.

GTFO.

:roll:

:confusedshrug: So he doesn't share the same opinion in ranking as you...Big deal..

[BallsOut]

LOL @ top 2.

GTFO.

:roll:

He meant top 1 according to Jordan, Magic, and Bird. :lol :lol

[PowerGlove]

:confusedshrug: So he doesn't share the same opinion in ranking as you...Big deal..
I laughed.

Why are YOU so defensive?:oldlol: :oldlol:

But yeah, Kobe is clearly a top TWO player.

Kobe>Bron or Wade. Clearly. Obviously.:oldlol:


He meant top 1 according to Jordan, Magic, and Bird. :lol :lol

this really matters to you huh?:oldlol:

So if I go and find all the times ex nba players said that Wade or Lebron was better than Kobe, what does that prove?

[Calabis]

QFT.

Haters gonna hate. They won't be talking smack when Kobe is playing in June for the 3rd straight year.

A page from the Kobestans book

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk197/calabis/yoda_biography_3-1.jpg

[Ikill]

so when will lebron decline i say 30 maybe even as early as 28

[gilalizard]

it's not a broken finger, it's a finger sprain, if it's broken, the bone is broken.

If I understood his injury correctly, it's a break where the ligament pulls a bit of bone away from the rest of the bone.

I had a similar injury in my ankle, and believe me, even though it sounds small it affects you quite a bit. Similar swelling, pain, and recovery needs as a regular break.

The bone still needs to heal for it to function properly, and without constant nagging pain.

[gts]

kobe is slowing down but his game has evolved to compensate for it.. kobe is a smart player, well aware of his body and it's limitations as time goes by but he has the ability to keep himself at the forefront of the game by tweaking his skill sets over the years

i can see him (barring any major injury) playing at a fairly high level until he's 36 37

[highwhey]

i would lol if he had yet to show us his best, kind of like a steve nash type/ but i doubt it. but still, kobe isn't the type to go from being elite to washed out. players like kg and shaq are washed out/worn out because they are bigger guys and playing for them takes a bigger toll on their bodies, moreso than it does on kobe. and like mentioned before, kobe has adjusted his game, plays smarter and more efficient. he's aging but he's still on top, all while making the transition from young to old. these threads need to stop, he's proved he can still play at a high level at an older age(32?). he's kind of like sandra bullock, how old is that b!tch, 45? yet she's still more beautiful than most 20 year old skanks hollywood is putting out these days.

[YAWN]

LOL @ top 2.

GTFO.

:roll:

so he definitely has no argument for top 2? GTFO? what is he top 15 in your book? is that why my opinion angered you? Many people rank him as #1...