Myth: Derrick Rose is an elite POINT guard ( He is an undersized SG like Wade)

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

http://www.unlockedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/derrick-rose.jpg

Let's start of i personally only watch whoever Memphis plays. Since this was our first meeting with the Bulls. This was my first time I got to evaluate Derrick Rose's game. I have watched some of the best POINT guards in this league expose our defense. The Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo. Even some young puppies like Brandon Jennings and Darren Collision (17 assist on us). We simply struggle with teams with B or better point guard play. Luckily Rose isn't even close to a B point guard. He is a D POINT Guard. An amazing talent probably a top 15 talent for guys 25 or under in this league. However the guy is more of an SG than OJ Mayo, who is more of a PG btw. That is for a different topic to discuss.

Back to Rose.



As you guys know Rose is currently averaging 20 points 3 boards 5 assists. His first 2 games of the month of march he is taking 22 FGA. One thing that jumps at on Rose's statline. Besides his inability to shoot the 3 ball. Is his points per FGAs. Since he can't get to the line, or hit 3s. He really has to shoot the ball ALOT even if it is at an efficient rate. To get to 20 or more. I am talking 18-20 FGAs just to score 20 points..

Next thing i noticed is he is just not very good at pure court vision or passing instincts. I didn't see one pass where i said wow, how did he get that through, none. As you Bulls fans saw Mayo's 3 assists were all bullet legit, threading the needle on the pick and roll to Gasol. Now think if he has the ball everytime down to do that.



Back to Rose again

The most important thing i saw was how awful his pick and roll game is. Guys who are elite PGs, or average a lot of assists say 8 or more. All have killer pick and roll games. I am talking about the John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams. I am almost about to put Collison in that mix with what he has been doing to teams in the pick and roll. Rose was no threat at all coming off the pick and roll.

Why is that?
Simply because of lack of court vision, and outside jumper. Is what it boils down to, not his teammates. I have said it before that OJ Mayo was a better passer and playmaker than Derrick Rose even though the stat sheet doesn't show that, because of the different system and roles they play on their team and tonight only comfirmed that.

I don't think Rose will ever maximize his potential being a full time PG, simply because he just doesn't have natural point guard instincts. I hate to bring up John Wall, but look what John Wall is doing under the same system, the dribble drive aka Princeton on Steriods offense, Rose was in under Callipari assist numbers wise. He should be a combo guard that spilts time at point and shooting guard like Billups. That will help Rose's psyche because he would know at an SG his job is to put the ball in the hole, and not worry about passing around the wings with no purpose.

He could average 26 points a game. He reminds me of Monta Ellis a lot. He has the same skill set and limited court vision, so why not max out his potential as an SG. Monta is averaging 25 5 5. There is no reason why Rose can't do the same.

One more thing, you just can't win ball games ( playoffs, championships) down the line when Rose enters his prime, with him being a Point Guard. Taking 20 FGAs or more a game constantly. I mean see Gilbert Areanas.

The last two games Rose has had 24 points on 24 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. and tonight 20 points on 21 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. both in losses.

Great talent, playing wrong position.
Burns87, and Rose's fans do you agree?

[brooks_thompson]

why don't you tell your bud mayo to start making his damn free throws

edit: and because it is a good question (minus the obsessive need to compare him to mayo), i'll reserve judgement til he gets a proper big man sidekick to play the pick and roll with.

but as it stands now, can't really argue.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade isn't an undersized shooting guard, he's an inch shorter than Kobe(Wade measured 6'3 3/4" barefoot and Kobe was measured 6'4 3/4" barefoot), has a 6'10 3/4" wingspan and weighs more than Kobe.

[SEEBASS1234]

Rose>Mayo
Me>You

[jazz873]

From the stats he has been putting up lately, it looks like hes been playing more like an sg. But i can only go by stats because i have not seen many bulls games.

[B-Easy]

i agree that he lacks court vision a bit but he is a PG..just a scoring pg.
he doesnt have to play like kidd to be a PG...theres plenty of scoring pgs

[brooks_thompson]

i really don't want to make the steve francis comparison this early in rose's career, but..

on the other hand, who needs rose at the two when you've got hinrich to bomb away all game! :rolleyes:

bulls better pay up and get a PF this summer. i think rose could be fine at PG with a #1 option to play with. he really seems reluctant to be a go-to guy, and maybe that bodes well for shaking the francis curse.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Rose>Mayo
Me>You

:applause:
:roll: i lol. You got me on that before i could whip it out.

[Nanners]

im supposed to read a negative post about d rose from a guy sporting an ojmayo screen name and take it seriously?


this is like the kiddie version of kobe lovers making an anti lebron thread

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

im supposed to read a negative post about d rose from a guy sporting an ojmayo screen name and take it seriously?


this is like the kiddie version of kobe lovers making an anti lebron thread

I took no shot at Rose. The worst I said was OJ Mayo was more of a PG/playmaker/passer/better passing instincts. Which is he, no bulls fan that watched tonights game can disagree or they are in denial.

I compared him to Monta Ellis and said he could score 26 or more a game if he played his natural position due to lack of point guard instincts as a shooting guard. He could put up numbers if you crossbreed D-Wade and Monta Ellis.

[Dresta]

Wade isn't an undersized shooting guard, he's an inch shorter than Kobe(Wade measured 6'3 3/4" barefoot and Kobe was measured 6'4 3/4" barefoot), has a 6'10 3/4" wingspan and weighs more than Kobe.
Yeah i was about to say this, Wade is not undersized for a 2.

Although i'd agree that Rose is nothing close to a pure point.

[SEEBASS1234]

:applause:
:roll: i lol. You got me on that before i could whip it out.
i try

[artificial]

All this conclusions from watching ONE f*cking game.

Amazing.

[beasted86]

Wade is an undersized SG?

Except Wade is taller than Rose, and Mayo, weighs more than both, stronger than both, and has a larger wingspan. So what does that make Mayo & Rose? A tiny SG?

[StroShow4]

Wade may not be the tallest SG in the league, but he's got some long @ss arms. That makes a big difference.

[Go Getter]

I disagree and think you are a fool who knows nothing about roundball.

[97 bulls]

i think your basing alot from just 1 game. and who is rose supposed to pick and roll with? warrick?

[chains5000]

All this conclusions from watching ONE f*cking game.

Amazing.
:applause:

[Bigsmoke]

Rose is an All Star but not an Elite player. That would be Deron Williams

[DarkSephiroth]

I actually do agree with this. Watching Derrick Rose, he is a score-first type of player. I am not a fan of his court vision, or playmaking style at all. He has no jumper, and he seems to rely on his physical attributes like speed and athleticism, rather than skill and court sense. I haven't watched much of Mayo, so I can't comment on him, but that's my personal opinion of Rose. I am definitely biased towards pass-first PGs because I kind of am one myself, and my favorite players (Nash, Mark Price, Stockton, Cousy) were all of that mold as well.

[Go Getter]

I wish ppl would stop and think before they post.

VDN TELLS Rose to shoot and ignore his teammates because they can't score.

Westbrook looks like he can pass much better than Rose because he's passing the ball to the leagues best scorer in Durant.

Rose+Durant=9 assists a game for Rose at least.

Rose's shooting guards this year are shooting sub 40% for most of the year why don't people get that?:hammerhead:

[eeeeeebro]

Watch the all star game.. you'll see rose not wanting to take a shot because of all the Bigs. then when the team missed a few shots in a row he took it in his hands to score. Bosh got like 3 assists from rose in 1 quarter cause rose simply broke down defense and dished it to someone who could score. Right now the bulls have nobody but rose and injured deng. Miller can play good but not 48 minutes thats why memphis won. Miller is sporting age and cannot compete 48 minutes we need help in C that is noah's injured ass.

[Pharcyde]

I actually do agree with this. Watching Derrick Rose, he is a score-first type of player. I am not a fan of his court vision, or playmaking style at all. He has no jumper, and he seems to rely on his physical attributes like speed and athleticism, rather than skill and court sense. I haven't watched much of Mayo, so I can't comment on him, but that's my personal opinion of Rose. I am definitely biased towards pass-first PGs because I kind of am one myself, and my favorite players (Nash, Mark Price, Stockton, Cousy) were all of that mold as well.
Rose isn't a score first.
He does have a jumper. The only person in the entire league that has taken more midrange jumpers is Dirk.
And he is a play maker.
Really, where is this shit coming from?

[lukekarts]

I agree with most of this.

Rose is not built in the mould of the typical point guard - his vision, creativity and passing is just average. That's not to disrespect his game - he's a good scorer and a great player - but if the Bulls want to get more out of their supporting cast they need a more natural point guard to do it. Or they just need someone like Bosh or Boozer.

[OnceInADECADE]

derrick rose has no one to pass except 4 deng like forsure mayo can get assist bcause he is playing wit better talent
GAY, ZBO, GASOL >DENG KIRK NOAH
which 1 would u rather play wit

[BlueandGold]

Why is everyone talking shit about this guy's post? It was a decent post.. i can see what he's talking about in the problems in the pick and roll game as well as his passing ability but those things could also greatly improve over time.

[Pharcyde]

Why is everyone talking shit about this guy's post? It was a decent post.. i can see what he's talking about in the problems in the pick and roll game as well as his passing ability but those things could also greatly improve over time.
Except the Bulls don't play the pick and roll. They use heavy isolation and the high screen which forces the ball into the bigs hands.

[jrong]

Yes, Rose is a true SG or scoring guard or if you prefer, combo guard. Wade is actually much more of a point than Rose is, even though he's not a true point guard either. I still think could Wade open up a whole new dynamic the Heat if he would accept that he's the Heat's PG. Instead of looking to bring in a floor general in the off-season to get the ball to Wade, the Heat could try to acquire a deadly marksman to play the two for Wade to dish off to....

But, anyway, this thread is about Rose. Despite the fact that he's not a PG, I have to admit the kid has converted me. I was a big Rose skeptic. I don't see ever seeing him being a top five player, but top ten is definitely in his future.

[Go Getter]

People think making risky passes and high assist totals=good passer but that's not always the case.

[Go Getter]

Yes, Rose is a true SG or scoring guard or if you prefer, combo guard. Wade is actually much more of a point than Rose is, even though he's not a true point guard either. I still think could Wade open up a whole new dynamic the Heat if he would accept that he's the Heat's PG. Instead of looking to bring in a floor general in the off-season to get the ball to Wade, the Heat could try to acquire a deadly marksman to play the two for Wade to dish off to....

But, anyway, this thread is about Rose. Despite the fact that he's not a PG, I have to admit the kid has converted me. I was a big Rose skeptic. I don't see ever seeing him being a top five player, but top ten is definitely in his future.

Wade is a shooting guard and putting the ball in his hands that much will shorten his career. He'd benefit from having a venerable PG next to him.

[shortlunatic]

:roll: at the OP.

Terrible analysis. Anyone who has seen Rose would be a blind idiot to think he would be better of at the 2 spot. The guy needs some major improvement on his three ball before you even think about having him start there. Second, like someone else said, pick n roll? With who? What big man do the Bulls have that they could run a pick n roll on a regular basis and have it be effective? Get someone like Bosh or even David Lee in here before you start making judgements like that. And about how many shots he's taking, who else is going to take them? Who else on the Bulls can Rose confidently dish the ball to that will hit the shot or get it done at the rim? Exactly. I would rather see Rose taking those mid range shots or driving it in any day over him dishing it out so someone can shoot a brick. Get in some solid players and watch the assists rise...

And there was someone who said he had no shot. His mid range shot is a thing a beauty. Anyone who slacks of him in the mid range area does not "Know his personal".

[Undisputed]

Whatever Rose is, he's doing huge things for the Bulls this season. I like Rose running the point more than playing the two. You all must keep in mind that Rose has been told all season by the coaching staff to look for his offense. He's not a pure point guard, but he's a damn good(and all-star, can't forget that) point guard. That's good enough for me. Rose is a playmaker and has good court vision, it's just the current Bulls team is not right for him.

[dak121]

He plays alongside the SG version of Bruce Bowen. Not to mention the rest of team is full of garbage scorers outside of Deng, who only plays well for 3 quarters a game.

Who else is going to score?

[Glide2keva]

All this conclusions from watching ONE f*cking game.

Amazing.
I KNOW!

thread FAIL!

[cdorse1]

The Bulls are an awful offensive team. They have no shooters and no low post scorers. You're so biased how often did Rose's penetration lead to an open look for a teammate for them not to hit an open shot. Or how about on the pick and pop when Miller pops and misses all of his shots.

You mention these thread the needle passes by Mayo they were none of the sort it's a competent big man in Gasol finishing a pick and roll something Rose doesn't have even with a healthy Noah.

Lastly you bring up Wall and the dribble drive offense which was used at Memphis. This is not really used @ Kentucky if you watch there games they play a lot of high low because of their two beast on the block in Patterson and Cousins. They still play some dribble drive but not close to the amount Rose did at Memphis.


"We are a post-up team, folks," Calipari said after Kentucky's 72-70 victory. Then Calipari added, "We just have to figure out how we're going to play.

http://www.kentucky.com/2009/11/18/1024090/dribble-drive-only-a-part-of-cats.html

There is no post up in the DDM offense.

Lastly Mayo is not a better passer or playmaker than Rose. With Gasol and Randolph down there Mayo if he were this great playmaker would get more than his 2.5 assist a game. The dude is a scorer and he had a good game yesterday but he probably never be close to the hype he came in with, solid 2nd option nothing to write home about.

Even on a night where Rose didn't have close to his A-game this is what Hollins had to say on Rose.



And Grizzlies coach Lionel Hollins predicted, "He's going to be one of the all-time greats before he's done."

http://nwitimes.com/sports/basketball/professional/article_f5b0f9b4-fc26-530c-8ee8-7703a87ea48b.html

[Batman]

Derrick Rose> OJ Mayo. Mayo got lucky outplaying Rose last night, it will never happen again.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Derrick Rose> OJ Mayo. Mayo got lucky outplaying Rose last night, it will never happen again.

we play them again in 2 weeks. he will.

[gotbacon23]

meh, they need rose to score currently. him and deng are the only 2 people on that team that can put the ball in the hoop on a consistent basis besides putting in put backs or dunks. would you rather have rose feeding the ball to kirk hinrich, taj gibson, joakim noah (when healthy), or brad miller, or would you rather him score the basketball himself??

put him on a team with more talented offensive players and he would play more like a true point guard. he just doesn't have the luxury to play like a true pg when he plays on a team with such offensive ineptitude.

[B-Easy]

meh, they need rose to score currently. him and deng are the only 2 people on that team that can put the ball in the hoop on a consistent basis besides putting in put backs or dunks. would you rather have rose feeding the ball to kirk hinrich, taj gibson, joakim noah (when healthy), or brad miller, or would you rather him score the basketball himself??

put him on a team with more talented offensive players and he would play more like a true point guard. he just doesn't have the luxury to play like a true pg when he plays on a team with such offensive ineptitude.

i disagree, he gets a lot of attention when he drives and doesnt always recognize the open man quick enough

[Poodle]

http://www.unlockedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/derrick-rose.jpg

Let's start of i personally only watch whoever Memphis plays. Since this was our first meeting with the Bulls. This was my first time I got to evaluate Derrick Rose's game. I have watched some of the best POINT guards in this league expose our defense. The Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo. Even some young puppies like Brandon Jennings and Darren Collision (17 assist on us). We simply struggle with teams with B or better point guard play. Luckily Rose isn't even close to a B point guard. He is a D POINT Guard. An amazing talent probably a top 15 talent for guys 25 or under in this league. However the guy is more of an SG than OJ Mayo, who is more of a PG btw. That is for a different topic to discuss.

Back to Rose.



As you guys know Rose is currently averaging 20 points 3 boards 5 assists. His first 2 games of the month of march he is taking 22 FGA. One thing that jumps at on Rose's statline. Besides his inability to shoot the 3 ball. Is his points per FGAs. Since he can't get to the line, or hit 3s. He really has to shoot the ball ALOT even if it is at an efficient rate. To get to 20 or more. I am talking 18-20 FGAs just to score 20 points..

Next thing i noticed is he is just not very good at pure court vision or passing instincts. I didn't see one pass where i said wow, how did he get that through, none. As you Bulls fans saw Mayo's 3 assists were all bullet legit, threading the needle on the pick and roll to Gasol. Now think if he has the ball everytime down to do that.



Back to Rose again

The most important thing i saw was how awful his pick and roll game is. Guys who are elite PGs, or average a lot of assists say 8 or more. All have killer pick and roll games. I am talking about the John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams. I am almost about to put Collison in that mix with what he has been doing to teams in the pick and roll. Rose was no threat at all coming off the pick and roll.

Why is that?
Simply because of lack of court vision, and outside jumper. Is what it boils down to, not his teammates. I have said it before that OJ Mayo was a better passer and playmaker than Derrick Rose even though the stat sheet doesn't show that, because of the different system and roles they play on their team and tonight only comfirmed that.

I don't think Rose will ever maximize his potential being a full time PG, simply because he just doesn't have natural point guard instincts. I hate to bring up John Wall, but look what John Wall is doing under the same system, the dribble drive aka Princeton on Steriods offense, Rose was in under Callipari assist numbers wise. He should be a combo guard that spilts time at point and shooting guard like Billups. That will help Rose's psyche because he would know at an SG his job is to put the ball in the hole, and not worry about passing around the wings with no purpose.

He could average 26 points a game. He reminds me of Monta Ellis a lot. He has the same skill set and limited court vision, so why not max out his potential as an SG. Monta is averaging 25 5 5. There is no reason why Rose can't do the same.

One more thing, you just can't win ball games ( playoffs, championships) down the line when Rose enters his prime, with him being a Point Guard. Taking 20 FGAs or more a game constantly. I mean see Gilbert Areanas.

The last two games Rose has had 24 points on 24 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. and tonight 20 points on 21 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. both in losses.

Great talent, playing wrong position.
Burns87, and Rose's fans do you agree?


i pretty much agree with everything you said here. rose has a ton of talent but isn't a smart PG imo, and plays more like a SG. i think Mayo is a very intelligent basketball player this year, and watching him doesn't make me bang my head against a wall like rose sometimes. i actually love Mayo's bball intelligence, the shots he takes, and how he is way more about winning than getting his. where as rose, it feels like he's still trying to prove himself, and just has little respect for the rest of his teammates, which probably has some validity, but not to the level rose seems to distrust them. its why i had some criticisms for Rose during a Bulls game thread then all of the bulls homers got all mad :lol

homers just have the least perspective when talking bball. its a goddamn shame there are so many of them here that can't be objective.

[gotbacon23]

i disagree, he gets a lot of attention when he drives and doesnt always recognize the open man quick enough

so you think that gibson, hinrich, noah, etc should get more shots than rose?? he may not recognize the open man quick enough, but when the open man sucks at offense you are going to look to score more than pass. they are opened for a reason. if the opened man was, say, amare stoudemire at the 4 rather than taj gibson, he would be more inclined to pass.

[Poodle]

:roll: at the OP.

Terrible analysis. Anyone who has seen Rose would be a blind idiot to think he would be better of at the 2 spot. The guy needs some major improvement on his three ball before you even think about having him start there. Second, like someone else said, pick n roll? With who? What big man do the Bulls have that they could run a pick n roll on a regular basis and have it be effective? Get someone like Bosh or even David Lee in here before you start making judgements like that. And about how many shots he's taking, who else is going to take them? Who else on the Bulls can Rose confidently dish the ball to that will hit the shot or get it done at the rim? Exactly. I would rather see Rose taking those mid range shots or driving it in any day over him dishing it out so someone can shoot a brick. Get in some solid players and watch the assists rise...

And there was someone who said he had no shot. His mid range shot is a thing a beauty. Anyone who slacks of him in the mid range area does not "Know his personal".


rose has an excellent mid range shot, excellent drive ability, but he needs to work on finishing ALOT. his decision making is really bad compared to the top PG's around the league which imo puts him way below them because it can be so bad sometimes.

thing is rose practically plays like a 2 and he probably would be there more if he could hit 3's. the original poster is right that rose generally chucks a lot to get his numbers. he also blinders the basket real hard and doesn't have the vision a lot of the top pg's do, and i'm not sure he'll ever get there tbh. like deron williams had vision early on, while the rest of his game improved a lot, but rose just comes across to me as kind of a selfish, somewhat dumb player. again he has all of the talent to be great but mentally more than anything i just don't think he'll get there.

[Kellogs4toniee]

I agree that he has not shown the skill-set of a pure point guard yet, but it's his second year. Even before Rose was drafted by the Bulls, Hinrich was already shooting in the low 40's and high 30's.

Have you seen Rose's swing-man's shooting percentages this year? If you had them as your swingman and Miller / Noah as your bigs, any coach would want his talented young guard to shoot / attack / score more instead of focusing on passing to players who miss 60% of the time.

Not sure if you watched the All-Star game, but with players who had finish and shoot well, Rose averaged 4 assists, 3 steals, and 8 points in 15 minutes of play. I believe at his highest maturity he will be a consistent 25 ppg / 9-10 assist type of player with efficient percentages.

It's just the system right now with Del Negro requires him to shoot more than pass more. I also disagree with alot of your Mayo comments, but I'd rather not argue against someone with the players name.

[Poodle]

so you think that gibson, hinrich, noah, etc should get more shots than rose?? he may not recognize the open man quick enough, but when the open man sucks at offense you are going to look to score more than pass. they are opened for a reason. if the opened man was, say, amare stoudemire at the 4 rather than taj gibson, he would be more inclined to pass.


you guys can't keep using that excuse. these are NBA players and hinrich, deng, b.miller, noah, etc. aren't nearly as bad as your pretending. they are easily competent teammates.

problem is rose will take on 3 people and still not look to dish. he's just not the PG distributor most people would like to see in their PG, more than SG chucker/driver.

[Pharcyde]

you guys can't keep using that excuse. these are NBA players and hinrich, deng, b.miller, noah, etc. aren't nearly as bad as your pretending. they are easily competent teammates.

problem is rose will take on 3 people and still not look to dish. he's just not the PG distributor most people would like to see in their PG, more than SG chucker/driver.

1. None of them are catch and shoot players or pick and roll players. And for the hundreth time we run an Iso offense. Which = not a lot of assists.
2. Prove that he doesn't pass it up.
3. Most of Derricks drives are broken plays because we run around 3 plays.
4. He is nothing close to a chucker. He's a guy that would much rather pass first. Since you claim to watch the Bulls so much, you would realize how passive he was earlier in the year. Thid was also when everyone started making threads on how he sucks/doesn't have the will to score. Now that he scores he's a shooting guard/chucker.

[Poodle]

I also disagree with alot of your Mayo comments, but I'd rather not argue against someone with the players name.


unless you've watched the grizzlies kind of a lot this year i don't think most people realize how unselfish and intelligent of a player Mayo is. don't judge him by his rookie year. i've watched the grizzlies kind of a lot early on and Mayo is as unselfish and intelligent a player with the game to do a lot more than i've seen play. i really respect players that can do a lot more and get more glory, but hold themselves back doing whats best to win for the team, and i'd swear that personifies Mayo this year.

thing is i thought he was a no conscience chucker from stats and general stuff i read last year. i rarely, if ever watched them last year tho.

[Kellogs4toniee]

you guys can't keep using that excuse. these are NBA players and hinrich, deng, b.miller, noah, etc. aren't nearly as bad as your pretending. they are easily competent teammates.

problem is rose will take on 3 people and still not look to dish. he's just not the PG distributor most people would like to see in their PG, more than SG chucker/driver.



Noah (Warrick in this case because Noah your hustler and rebounder has been injured) / Gibson / Miller are not offensive bigs. You can not dish the ball to them and have them produce for you effectively. As a result, you have to rely on your swingman, aka your two guard and small forward, and have Rose push the ball. Now let us analyze this more thoroughly.

Your two guard, the one who the PG is suppose to pass to and let him score, is Kirk Hinrich. He is shooting less than 40% this season, averaging 10.5 points in 33 minutes of play. Really? As a coach do you really want the ball in his hands?

Your small forward is playing wonderfully, but does not have the physical presence to command double teams or make opponent teams create game-plans based on his play. No knock on Deng, I love him as a Bulls fan, but he is averaging less than 3 trips to the line a game.

In the system right now, Derrick Rose simply does not have the personnel to be an elite pass-first point guard. However, what I see is a player who has been a PG all his life learn to adjust to what the coaches require from him, which is to shoot more and be more dominant / aggresive.

He has done all that and improved his jumper dramatically. All those interviews during the early season where he admits he has been injured, and he felt bad for it affecting his team so he promised he was in the gym all day practicing to make his jumper better? The BOY wasn't lying He's shooting 48% this season and over 50% the last 2 months.

He has shown maturity and an ability to be coached that any team would LOVE to have in this league.

[Poodle]

1. None of them are catch and shoot players or pick and roll players. And for the hundreth time we run an Iso offense. Which = not a lot of assists.
2. Prove that he doesn't pass it up.
3. Most of Derricks drives are broken plays because we run around 3 plays.
4. He is nothing close to a chucker. He's a guy that would much rather pass first. Since you claim to watch the Bulls so much, you would realize how passive he was earlier in the year. Thid was also when everyone started making threads on how he sucks/doesn't have the will to score. Now that he scores he's a shooting guard/chucker.


1. B. Miller IS a catch and shoot player. Noah can hit a short J occasionally even tho he barely takes any shots. hinrich has range so does deng. running ISO is fine but driving against help isn't which rose does often and doesn't have the vision to make the smart play consistently.

2. lol you prove he does pass it up... what does he average assists-wise? how often does he geet 10 assist games? for how much he tends to dominate the ball its fairly obvious if you watch the bulls play that rose isn't anything close to a pass first PG so this is a really dumb retort. i don't really want to get into arguing with a homer since you guys are unreasonable about rose.

3. some are broken where he'll just say screw it and take it himself, but not most. if anything most of rose's plays that i've seen are ISO's like you said.

4. he was hurt earlier in the year and played more passive. he does shoot a lot, but i probably exaggerated when i said chucker since a real chucker has little conscience where as rose isn't nearly that bad. but i swear to God his decision making to drive sometimes, or shoot it can be so retarded, which goes back to his decision making as a PG.

whats funny is i actually cheer for rose, but its so frustrating watching him regularly compared to some of the more 'intelligent' players around the league(like Mayo is this year).

this is a good thread actually, i'm surprised to see someone make a bold thread like this about someone a lot of people here bandwagon.

[Poodle]

Noah (Warrick in this case because Noah your hustler and rebounder has been injured) / Gibson / Miller are not offensive bigs. You can not dish the ball to them and have them produce for you effectively. As a result, you have to rely on your swingman, aka your two guard and small forward, and have Rose push the ball. Now let us analyze this more thoroughly.

Your two guard, the one who the PG is suppose to pass to and let him score, is Kirk Hinrich. He is shooting less than 40% this season, averaging 10.5 points in 33 minutes of play. Really? As a coach do you really want the ball in his hands?

Your small forward is playing wonderfully, but does not have the physical presence to command double teams or make opponent teams create game-plans based on his play. No knock on Deng, I love him as a Bulls fan, but he is averaging less than 3 trips to the line a game.

In the system right now, Derrick Rose simply does not have the personnel to be an elite pass-first point guard. However, what I see is a player who has been a PG all his life learn to adjust to what the coaches require from him, which is to shoot more and be more dominant / aggresive.

He has done all that and improved his jumper dramatically. All those interviews during the early season where he admits he has been injured, and he felt bad for it affecting his team so he promised he was in the gym all day practicing to make his jumper better? The BOY wasn't lying He's shooting 48% this season and over 50% the last 2 months.

He has shown maturity and an ability to be coached that any team would LOVE to have in this league.

where i disagree with you is that he can't do anything else than what he does because everyone around him is so bad. its obvious sometimes to everyone rose is going to take it himself, even the defense, who at times collapse on him and he still blinders the basket and either throws up a prayer, luckily gets a call, or make it. rarely dishes to the open man. most of the top PG's around the league in those situations will dish to the open man, and rose doesn't do that anywhere close to them.

honestly you guys are scapegoating rose's weaknesses on his teammates when its not nearly that black and white. those teammates CAN hit shots, can make layups, can dunk finish, but rose doesn't give them those opportunities anywhere close to the other top PG's around the league. he's just way less of a great PG imo, more than a great PG scorer with a top notch mid range and drive game.

yeah he's young but people need to stop looking for excuses than acknowledge what he's weak at now.

[brooks_thompson]

ya think you got what it takes ?!

[Go Getter]

1. B. Miller IS a catch and shoot player. Noah can hit a short J occasionally even tho he barely takes any shots. hinrich has range so does deng. running ISO is fine but driving against help isn't which rose does often and doesn't have the vision to make the smart play consistently.

2. lol you prove he does pass it up... what does he average assists-wise? how often does he geet 10 assist games? for how much he tends to dominate the ball its fairly obvious if you watch the bulls play that rose isn't anything close to a pass first PG so this is a really dumb retort. i don't really want to get into arguing with a homer since you guys are unreasonable about rose.

3. some are broken where he'll just say screw it and take it himself, but not most. if anything most of rose's plays that i've seen are ISO's like you said.

4. he was hurt earlier in the year and played more passive. he does shoot a lot, but i probably exaggerated when i said chucker since a real chucker has little conscience where as rose isn't nearly that bad. but i swear to God his decision making to drive sometimes, or shoot it can be so retarded, which goes back to his decision making as a PG.

whats funny is i actually cheer for rose, but its so frustrating watching him regularly compared to some of the more 'intelligent' players around the league(like Mayo is this year).

this is a good thread actually, i'm surprised to see someone make a bold thread like this about someone a lot of people here bandwagon.


Brad Miller is a catch and shoot player?

Mayo is one if the more intelligent players in the league?

wHER do you guys come up with this stuff?:confusedshrug:

[Go Getter]

honestly you guys are scapegoating rose's weaknesses on his teammates when its not nearly that black and white. those teammates CAN hit shots, can make layups, can dunk finish, but rose doesn't give them those opportunities anywhere close to the other top PG's around the league. he's just way less of a great PG imo, more than a great PG scorer with a top notch mid range and drive game.

yeah he's young but people need to stop looking for excuses than acknowledge what he's weak at now.

Numbers don't lie the only two players that are shooting the ball well on the bulls are Rose and Deng. Kirk CAN shoot but he's really stinking it up this year from the floor.

Rose doesn't give the ball up because the org has asked him to be more selfish....the team WANTS him to 'ignore' teammates and shoot why can't people get that through their thick skulls?

[Pharcyde]

1. B. Miller IS a catch and shoot player. Noah can hit a short J occasionally even tho he barely takes any shots. hinrich has range so does deng. running ISO is fine but driving against help isn't which rose does often and doesn't have the vision to make the smart play consistently.

Miller is not a catch and shoot player. He's terrible at it.
Why did you even try and mention Noah?
Kirk has range, good for him. He doesn't catch and shoot so you didn't make a point.
Deng is a good midrange shooter, and we use him in our Iso plays. He rarely spots up for a catch and shoot.


2. lol you prove he does pass it up... what does he average assists-wise? how often does he geet 10 assist games? for how much he tends to dominate the ball its fairly obvious if you watch the bulls play that rose isn't anything close to a pass first PG so this is a really dumb retort. i don't really want to get into arguing with a homer since you guys are unreasonable about rose.
Again, what does this prove? The Bulls don't run an offense. We run Isolation plays and the high screen which forces the ball out of Roses hand. Hell, that's really the only play involving Rose. If you watched Bulls games you would see that. But you don't so it's not a surprise.


3. some are broken where he'll just say screw it and take it himself, but not most. if anything most of rose's plays that i've seen are ISO's like you said.
No, a lot are broken. Since we don't run plays for him.



whats funny is i actually cheer for rose, but its so frustrating watching him regularly compared to some of the more 'intelligent' players around the league(like Mayo is this year).
You say this a lot, but it's not even close to being true. He's not even close to being frustrating. You know who is? Kirk Hinrich clanking corner 3 after corner 3 and Brad Miller jacking up shots.

[Poodle]

Brad Miller is a catch and shoot player?

Mayo is one if the more intelligent players in the league?

wHER do you guys come up with this stuff?:confusedshrug:


watching games. you?


you do realize brad took a lot of jumpers more than anything post with sacramento? the bulls even run the same plays to get brad those mid range shots....

i bet you haven't watched one grizzlies game this year to know what you're talking about with mayo...

and yeah i'll give you guys the point that hinrich and miller haven't been able to consistently nail their shots this year, but they still have some games where they are hitting...and are both normally throughout their careers pretty good shooters.

[Pharcyde]

luckily gets a call
This never happens. Rose gets clobbered and still doesn't get calls.

[Kellogs4toniee]

whats funny is i actually cheer for rose, but its so frustrating watching him regularly compared to some of the more 'intelligent' players around the league(like Mayo is this year).

this is a good thread actually, i'm surprised to see someone make a bold thread like this about someone a lot of people here bandwagon.

People have already stated how ridiculous your previous statements are regarding how well the other Bulls players are suppose to play, but do you really think O.J Mayo is playing smarter? He has practically his entire team his rookie season to develop more team chemistry, yet it seems the only player that has not improved statistically from last year on the Grizzlies out of the core of Gay, Gasol and Conley is Mayo :confusedshrug: He is playing 39 minutes a game this year you know that right?

[Kellogs4toniee]

watching games. you?


you do realize brad took a lot of jumpers more than anything post with sacramento? the bulls even run the same plays to get brad those mid range shots....

i bet you haven't watched one grizzlies game this year to know what you're talking about with mayo...

and yeah i'll give you guys the point that hinrich and miller haven't been able to consistently nail their shots this year, but they still have some games where they are hitting...and are both normally throughout their careers pretty good shooters.

Except not this year (below 40% for a 2 -guard hello do you read our comments?), hence the coach and organization needing Rose to be more aggressive and take more shots.

[Poodle]

Miller is not a catch and shoot player. He's terrible at it.
Why did you even try and mention Noah?
Kirk has range, good for him. He doesn't catch and shoot so you didn't make a point.
Deng is a good midrange shooter, and we use him in our Iso plays. He rarely spots up for a catch and shoot.


Again, what does this prove? The Bulls don't run an offense. We run Isolation plays and the high screen which forces the ball out of Roses hand. Hell, that's really the only play involving Rose. If you watched Bulls games you would see that. But you don't so it's not a surprise.


No, a lot are broken. Since we don't run plays for him.



You say this a lot, but it's not even close to being true. He's not even close to being frustrating. You know who is? Kirk Hinrich clanking corner 3 after corner 3 and Brad Miller jacking up shots.


you're just extremely bias where you aren't reasonable, and yes i've watched plenty of bulls game this year, going all the way back to when they had crawford, curry, and chandler. i can at least give insight relative to other players/teams around the league that i've also watched, where as your whole homer basis of analysis is based on just the bulls, but this is why Knicks fans will be dumb enough to consider Lee a 3rd or 4th option. only homers are that dumb...

if you don't think miller is a catch and shoot player then you have no clue wtf you're talking about. the bulls even run plays for him to get that mid range shot. he's done it throughout his whole career :wtf:

i mentioned noah because noah CAN bury that short J. you're the only acting like nobody but rose can make a basket which is just blind homer 'my favorite player can do no wrong' typical ish ignorance.

are you serious? kirk spots up quite often. if anything kirk catches and shoots more than dribble creates himself and shoots. what you're saying is so retarded acting like rose can't pass to these guys when he's drawing 2 or 3 players. SOMEONES open...

seriously do you even watch your own team play? i can't believe you're saying half this stuff. deng does position himself for catch and shoots often...:wtf:

its hilarious you're such a bulls homer you can't even admit one criticism about your favorite player and making up ALL of these BS excuses. Even then you're either watching a completely different team than i am to say what you just said, or just have a very retarded ability to analyze what you watch. And you have the nerve to act like i don't watch the bulls to know? lmao this is exactly why i don't like trying to talk sense with homers, most of you are morons about your players :hammerhead: rarely do i run across one of you that can admit a criticism or be somewhat objective.

[Kellogs4toniee]

you're just extremely bias where you aren't reasonable, and yes i've watched plenty of bulls game this year, going all the way back to when they had crawford, curry, and chandler. i can at least give insight relative to other players/teams around the league that i've also watched, where as your whole homer basis of analysis is based on just the bulls, but this is why Knicks fans will be dumb enough to consider Lee a 3rd or 4th option. only homers are that dumb...

if you don't think miller is a catch and shoot player then you have no clue wtf you're talking about. the bulls even run plays for him to get that mid range shot. he's done it throughout his whole career :wtf:

i mentioned noah because noah CAN bury that short J. you're the only acting like nobody but rose can make a basket which is just blind homer 'my favorite player can do no wrong' typical ish ignorance.

are you serious? kirk spots up quite often. if anything kirk catches and shoots more than dribble creates himself and shoots. what you're saying is so retarded acting like rose can't pass to these guys when he's drawing 2 or 3 players. SOMEONES open...

seriously do you even watch your own team play? i can't believe you're saying half this stuff. deng does position himself for catch and shoots often...:wtf:

its hilarious you're such a bulls homer you can't even admit one criticism about your favorite player and making up ALL of these BS excuses. Even then you're either watching a completely different team than i am to say what you just said, or just have a very retarded ability to analyze what you watch. And you have the nerve to act like i don't watch the bulls to know? lmao this is exactly why i don't like trying to talk sense with homers, most of you are morons about your players :hammerhead: rarely do i run across one of you that can admit a criticism or be somewhat objective.


I live in Chicago. I have WGN. They televise pretty much every Bulls game. Hinrich does not catch and shoot more than he dribble shoots or shoots off the dribble. What are you smoking? Stop acting like you know the Bulls. I really do not see any credible argument at all to justify why one would think O.J Mayo is playing smarter than Rose this year.

[Poodle]

This never happens. Rose gets clobbered and still doesn't get calls.

UGHHH if anything rose gets calls that were clean blocks. it just looks bad because he'll run into 3 players while he throws the ball up, but i see him get those type calls more often than not.

he doesn't get kobe type of touch calls, but theres definitely very little you should be complaining about there, especially when rose initiates a lot of the contact.

[Poodle]

I live in Chicago. I have WGN. They televise pretty much every Bulls game. Hinrich does not catch and shoot more than he dribble shoots or shoots off the dribble. What are you smoking? Stop acting like you know the Bulls. I really do not see any credible argument at all to justify why one would think O.J Mayo is playing smarter than Rose this year.


i have nba package...

how often have you watched the grizzlies this year? by all means tell me. considering it sounds like you don't have NBA package i'm assuming 0 times? why act like you know how Mayo has played this year then?

hinrich does shoot on the dribble sometimes but he spots up at the 3 a lot too. i'd argue quite often...

[Kellogs4toniee]

i have nba package...

how often have you watched the grizzlies this year? by all means tell me. considering it sounds like you don't have NBA package i'm assuming 0 times? why act like you know how Mayo has played this year then?

hinrich does shoot on the dribble sometimes but he spots up at the 3 a lot too. i'd argue quite often...


Well you sure as hell don't sound like someone who has watched a good amount of Bull games to make the statements you've been making.

For me as far as O.J Mayo, I can not say I've watched more than maybe 2-3 games of him this year. However, I do read recaps and I see a player who's ppg, rebounds, and assists have all gone down or stayed the same this season with more minutes and stronger team-mates down low. :confusedshrug:

[Poodle]

Well you sure as hell don't sound like someone who has watched a good amount of Bull games to make the statements you've been making.

For me as far as O.J Mayo, I can not say I've watched more than maybe 2-3 games of him this year. However, I do read recaps and I see a player who's ppg, rebounds, and assists have all gone down or stayed the same this season with more minutes and stronger team-mates down low. :confusedshrug:


just curious but what points specifically are you disagreeing with? you just disagreed about hinrich, what else that i've stated? if you're only talkiing about that to prove i don't watch the bulls out of everything i argued, then you're clearly just upset i'm criticizing your favorite player just like the other homers that can't handle the criticism.

like i said in the bulls game thread where a lot of the bulls homers got butthurt about me criticizing some aspects of rose's game, i've watched them quite a bit this year, on top of him being on my fantasy team.

watch some grizzlies games before acting like you know what you're talking about with Mayo...

[Go Getter]

Being a fan has nothing to do with the fact that your assessment of Rose is pretty much off base.

[Poodle]

Being a fan has nothing to do with the fact that your assessment of Rose is pretty much off base.


what aspects? again you're all arguing nobody but rose can do anything on the bulls therefore he HAS to blinder the basket, but thats a bunch of crap. you're just trying to excuse any weakness somebody cites of his game but thats been the norm reply from every bulls fan when it comes to any criticism of rose. from he's young, nobody else on the team can score, to their offense its just a bunch of scapegoat excuses for your favorite player.

if you're going to call me uninformed at least explain where i am. i think i did a well enough job explaining why/where i'm criticizing rose, how your offense works, and what players on the bulls can do. contrary to what some of you believed about b. miller for example not being a catch and shoot player, which is just idiotic tbh if ever watched the kings even once. its just crazy some of you say that considering teh bulls try and get him those same looks...


And I'm the one taht doesn't watch the bulls? please :P

[Kellogs4toniee]

what aspects? again you're all arguing nobody but rose can do anything on the bulls therefore he HAS to blinder the basket, but thats a bunch of crap. you're just trying to excuse any weakness somebody cites of his game but thats been the norm reply from every bulls fan when it comes to any criticism of rose. from he's young, nobody else on the team can score, to their offense its just a bunch of scapegoat excuses for your favorite player.

if you're going to call me uninformed at least explain where i am. i think i did a well enough job explaining why/where i'm criticizing rose, how your offense works, and what players on the bulls can do. contrary to what some of you believed about b. miller for example not being a catch and shoot player, which is just idiotic tbh if ever watched the kings even once. its just crazy some of you say that considering teh bulls try and get him those same looks...


And I'm the one taht doesn't watch the bulls? please :P


Wow this is still going on? Ok, I came in to disagree with O.JMayo's points regardin Derrick's Pick and Roll and Jump Shot. I backed up the pick and roll argument by saying he really does not have a strong finishing big (ala boozer / stoudemire / West) etc. No Matter what you say, Noah and Warrick do not cut it.

I also think it's ridiculous to think his mid-range jump shot is a weakness considering the efficiency. Someone, either you or O.J stated themselves that Rose does not get to the line alot, so he takes alot of shots. Even so, he still is shooting over 50% the past two months and over 48% for the season. That does not translate to someone who has a "lack of an outside jumper."

Then I stated the low percentages of his swingman / other players as a good / main reason for his low assists and apparently according to O.J, his "poor vision and passing ability." I think all those points are taken to exaggeration. What are you exactly trying to argue? I myself have stated many times I do not consider him an elite passing PG yet, but it's too early to start calling his vision and passing weak based on his first two years and with the players he currently has. Don't forget, Salmons was with the Bulls for 90% of the season so far and he shot below 43% when he was with them.

That's it.

[Go Getter]

Dude, Brad Miller is not a catch and shoot player...he can catch and shoot but he is much too slow to get any shot off with much consistency.

Saying that he is makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about as far as any of this goes.

[Da KO King]

A strong finishing big is NOT why Derrick Rose sucks at pick and roll play. Rose sucks at it because he went from a high school offense that was "let's watch Derrick run past people and dunk" to Coach Cal's version of the DDM (very similar to watching Derrick run past people and dunk) to Vinny Del Negro's "I'm so in over my head it's not even funny" offense.

In case you guys are missing it the OP has said that Rose would be an elite SG like few have seen before if he wasn't being typecast as a PG due to his height.

[Pharcyde]

A strong finishing big is NOT why Derrick Rose sucks at pick and roll play. Rose sucks at it because he went from a high school offense that was "let's watch Derrick run past people and dunk" to Coach Cal's version of the DDM (very similar to watching Derrick run past people and dunk) to Vinny Del Negro's "I'm so in over my head it's not even funny" offense.

In case you guys are missing it the OP has said that Rose would be an elite SG like few have seen before if he wasn't being typecast as a PG due to his height.

How do we know that he sucks at it if ge doesn't play it?

[Pharcyde]

UGHHH if anything rose gets calls that were clean blocks.

No, he doesn't.

[Da KO King]

How do we know that he sucks at it if ge doesn't play it?So you guys are going to continue with the Rose never uses ballscreens thing huh?

[Pharcyde]

you're just extremely bias where you aren't reasonable, and yes i've watched plenty of bulls game this year, going all the way back to when they had crawford, curry, and chandler. i can at least give insight relative to other players/teams around the league that i've also watched, where as your whole homer basis of analysis is based on just the bulls, but this is why Knicks fans will be dumb enough to consider Lee a 3rd or 4th option. only homers are that dumb...

Saying this over and over isn't helping your argument. Also, weren't you the same guy that said Nate Robinson is a better player then Ben Gordon? And you're trying to say that you know a lot about basketball?


if you don't think miller is a catch and shoot player then you have no clue wtf you're talking about. the bulls even run plays for him to get that mid range shot. he's done it throughout his whole career :wtf:
He plays in the pick and pop, yes, but does that mean he's good at it? No.


i mentioned noah because noah CAN bury that short J. you're the only acting like nobody but rose can make a basket which is just blind homer 'my favorite player can do no wrong' typical ish ignorance.
I said nothing about making baskets. I was specifically talking about catching and shooting/spotting up/coming off screens to shoot. Again, which makes you bringing up Noah's "jumpshot" moot because it holds no relevance to the topic.


are you serious? kirk spots up quite often. if anything kirk catches and shoots more than dribble creates himself and shoots. what you're saying is so retarded acting like rose can't pass to these guys when he's drawing 2 or 3 players. SOMEONES open...
Again, I did say Kirk spots up. But he's bad at it. And no, Kirk is constantly dribbling around and then shooting. Every single game he has a moment where he dribbles around until the last 3 seconds and then hoists up a terrible contested jumper.


seriously do you even watch your own team play? i can't believe you're saying half this stuff. deng does position himself for catch and shoots often...:wtf:
Often? Really? He spots up for that corner 3, but how many has he made this year? We run a lot if Iso's for Deng. He does sit around 2 feet inside the 3 point line though, and that's where a lot of Rose's assists come from.

[Pharcyde]

So you guys are going to continue with the Rose never uses ballscreens thing huh?

You mean the high screen at the top of the key with Noah or Brad Miller where he is then trapped/doubled and forced to give the ball up?

[Da KO King]

You mean the high screen at the top of the key with Noah or Brad Miller where he is then trapped/doubled and forced to give the ball up?
Yes. That's not all that happens but yes those high screens.

[Diesel J]

im supposed to read a negative post about d rose from a guy sporting an ojmayo screen name and take it seriously?


this is like the kiddie version of kobe lovers making an anti lebron thread

:lol

[kumquat]

I agree with the OP. He's a DWade light type of player. He's improved his mid-range immensely. May give a nice pass every now and again, but he's a scoring guard, not very good at distributing. It's a little disturbinhg that he doesn't get more FT attempts.

[OnceInADECADE]

I agree with the OP. He's a DWade light type of player. He's improved his mid-range immensely. May give a nice pass every now and again, but he's a scoring guard, not very good at distributing. It's a little disturbinhg that he doesn't get more FT attempts.


Y can't people understand the VDN wants drose scoring the ball his job is to put the ball in the hole

[kumquat]

Y can't people understand the VDN wants drose scoring the ball his job is to put the ball in the hole

That's fair enough if VDN wants him to score, but that doesn't hide the lack of court vision and organizational skills.

[Undisputed]

That's fair enough if VDN wants him to score, but that doesn't hide the lack of court vision and organizational skills.

Be completely honest, how many Bulls games have you watched this year? His court vision is excellent. Now I won't say he has an all-time great kind of court vision, but he sees the court really well and makes some sweet passes on a consistent basis.

[Pharcyde]

Yes. That's not all that happens but yes those high screens.
...so what exactly is he sucking at with those?

[Da KO King]

...so what exactly is he sucking at with those?
Well due to Rose's speed teams like trapping early. In those situations Rose needs to split if his defender goes over or "bingo" (change direction and go opposite) the screen if his defender goes under.

Another popular way to defend Rose is a show and go under. The thinking is Rose has limited range so let him shoot. In these situations Rose tends to stop behind the screen like he's lost. If Rose had range he could do like Chauncey Billups and just step back and shoot. Since he's not Rose should turn on his jetpack and make it a footrace to the rack. Doesn't matter if its John Wall or a Derrick Rose clone there is no one fast enough to get under a screen and get back in front of Rose in the two dribbles it take to get from top of key to a finishing spot in lane.



Now understand I don't blame Derrick Rose for not knowing to do this. I hold Vinny Del Negro accountable. VDN has done a REALLY bad job developing Rose as a player.

[Lakas Fan Yo]

WADE = 6-5 in shoes, 6-11 wingspan about 220-225. Hardly "undersized".

[SEEBASS1234]

http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/c/pyzamcustollin.jpg

[ILLsmak]

A scoring guard can push point, where have you been? As long as he doesn't take away from his team and knows when to give the ball up, it doesn't matter...

Rose isn't an elite PG because he's just not. It has nothing to do with his scoring. His scoring HELPS him become closer to an elite PG because he can go off.

Ever notice how every one of this guy's topics has OJ mayo weaved into it.

Kind of sad.

-Smak

[TheTruth11]

He dished out 13 assists tonight.... could have had 16 or 17. Even the announcer commented that he should have had more assists but players missed easy shots.

When Rose gets a great player or two to dish the ball to .... he will average 8/9 assists a game easy. Easy:pimp:


Bank it

[OnceInADECADE]

bump

[OnceInADECADE]

Cannon

[EarlTheGoat]

OP is just mad Rose got rookie of the year instead of OJ Mayo. Be honest.

[Yung D-Will]

TheTruth is the griffenmoney of Bulls fans.


I remember griffen money kept bringing up single games when Kobe had a lot of assist to justify the fact he'd be a better passer then Lebron if he wasn't in the triangle .

[Pointguard]

honestly you guys are scapegoating rose's weaknesses on his teammates when its not nearly that black and white. those teammates CAN hit shots, can make layups, can dunk finish, but rose doesn't give them those opportunities anywhere close to the other top PG's around the league. he's just way less of a great PG imo, more than a great PG scorer with a top notch mid range and drive game.

yeah he's young but people need to stop looking for excuses than acknowledge what he's weak at now.

I think Rose plays to his strengths as good as any young point guard does. People are forgetting that he played hurt to just about in the new year. After that his shooting percentage for 2010 (508%) is as good as any pointguard that has a chance at averaging more than 15ppg. His midrange jump shot and teardrop are superior to any consistent PG shot out there. His turnovers are low. Definitely one of the best penetrators in the game. He uses his athletism better than anybody at his position. He is very strong. His play during the playoffs is top tier among PG's and can only be measured against the very best at the position.

He plays right for the team he is on. He should not sacrifice all of that in favor of becoming an assist man. Nobody on that team is going to shoot 50% consistently. It is not wise or a smart priority for him to be more traditional at the point? But he is neither a Dwade or AI combo guard. He is still more Point than Shooting guard but definitely a solid player. As he masters the system he will be a better passer as well. With Booze there he could go for 9 assist per game.

[thejumpa]

I totally agree with the OP. I think he's more of a combo guard that will eventually be converted into more of a traditional PG now that he has shooters and Boozer. But yeah, he looks to score a lot; attack the basket; hit jumpers/floaters; moves well without the ball. I consider that a combo guard. Hell, I consider Dwayne Wade a combo guard. He handled the ball a lot last year and their game is nearly indentical.

This is why I believe Rondo is a better PG than Rose is. I like Rose because of his athleticism and shooting, but Rondo runs an offense. Makes great decisions, can finish as well as Rose, better passer, rebounder, defender, etc...

[evilmonkey]

Well in that case...

Lebron is an oversized PG
Dirk is an oversized SG
Kobe is an undersized SF
Durant is an oversized SG
Carmelo is an oversized SG
Monta Ellis is an undersized SG
Nate Robinson is an undersized SG
Mo Williams is an undersized SG

And so on....

[Samurai Swoosh]

I totally agree with the OP. I think he's more of a combo guard that will eventually be converted into more of a traditional PG now that he has shooters and Boozer. But yeah, he looks to score a lot; attack the basket; hit jumpers/floaters; moves well without the ball. I consider that a combo guard. Hell, I consider Dwayne Wade a combo guard. He handled the ball a lot last year and their game is nearly indentical.

This is why I believe Rondo is a better PG than Rose is. I like Rose because of his athleticism and shooting, but Rondo runs an offense. Makes great decisions, can finish as well as Rose, better passer, rebounder, defender, etc...
:pimp:

[blacknapalm]

this is more true of tyreke evans, even though rose can sprinkle in a bit more 3's. defensively, it's not close. evans is much closer to wade than rose is.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

OP is just mad Rose got rookie of the year instead of OJ Mayo. Be honest.

Juice has nothing to do with this thread. I call it as I see it. See, many people agree there. There's nothing wrong about being an undersize SG or combo guard. Rose falls into that category, a lot of his fans try to put him in the pass first or pure pg category.

That's to sum up the thread. This more evident in the World Championships. I have heard Rose fans say he will average 10 apg because he has Boozer, Boozer is overrated that's why Jazz were so quick to let him go. Rose will average 6 apg just like last year.

[Nastradamus]

The myth is that Wade is undersized, jackass.

Rose may be a scorer first, but I think you can win with him. His D is improving and so is his shot.It wouldn't hurt to have a point forward type though, playing with him. Someone like Tayshaun or even Hedo.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

this is more true of tyreke evans, even though rose can sprinkle in a bit more 3's. defensively, it's not close. evans is much closer to wade than rose is.

Neither of them are close to Wade. John Wall is the closest thing we have to Wade.

[Nastradamus]

and OJ is a PG? Did you see him try that in Summer league?

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

The myth is that Wade is undersized, jackass.

Rose may be a scorer first, but I think you can win with him. His D is improving and so is his shot.It wouldn't hurt to have a point forward type though, playing with him. Someone like Tayshaun or even Hedo.

I go by listed heights whether that may or may not be accurate. Wade is listed as 6'4. That's undersize at the SG position for an NBA player.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

and OJ is a PG? Did you see him try that in Summer league?

He is a combo guard. He can play both positions and should play both. His majority of minutes should be at the SG though. He has better court vision that Derrick Rose though, by quite some distance actually.

Look at their highlights tapes, Mayo makes some great Jason Kidd like passes even though he averages 3 assists less than Rose due to not playing PG. Rose gets all his assists from basic passes, or drive and kicks. I honestly never said wow to a single Derrick Rose pass.

Can someone show me Derrick Rose doing a great pass.

[EmilDrillz]

Boo This Man!

[drwax26]

He is a combo guard. He can play both positions and should play both. His majority of minutes should be at the SG though. He has better court vision that Derrick Rose though, by quite some distance actually.

Look at their highlights tapes, Mayo makes some great Jason Kidd like passes even though he averages 3 assists less than Rose due to not playing PG. Rose gets all his assists from basic passes, or drive and kicks. I honestly never said wow to a single Derrick Rose pass.

Can someone show me Derrick Rose doing a great pass.

Mayo cant handle the ball nearly as well as rose... You are a Mayo homer no point in arguing lol....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isydvyX-jKU&p=0A0F322F6B572114&playnext=1&index=10


Here is one pass since you asked....

[Rose]

He is a combo guard. He can play both positions and should play both. His majority of minutes should be at the SG though. He has better court vision that Derrick Rose though, by quite some distance actually.

Look at their highlights tapes, Mayo makes some great Jason Kidd like passes even though he averages 3 assists less than Rose due to not playing PG. Rose gets all his assists from basic passes, or drive and kicks. I honestly never said wow to a single Derrick Rose pass.

Can someone show me Derrick Rose doing a great pass.
I thought his first ever playoff assist was pretty great. But whatevs. And...Rose was compared to Kidd/wade in high school and college. Yet everyone seems to forget that.

[Nastradamus]

I go by listed heights whether that may or may not be accurate. Wade is listed as 6'4. That's undersize at the SG position for an NBA player.

There is more to it than height. If Mayo had Wade's length and strength, he wouldn't be asked to change positions. He wouldn't be abused by the Stephen Jackson's of the world.

[Nastradamus]

He is a combo guard. He can play both positions and should play both. His majority of minutes should be at the SG though. He has better court vision that Derrick Rose though, by quite some distance actually.

Look at their highlights tapes, Mayo makes some great Jason Kidd like passes even though he averages 3 assists less than Rose due to not playing PG. Rose gets all his assists from basic passes, or drive and kicks. I honestly never said wow to a single Derrick Rose pass.

Can someone show me Derrick Rose doing a great pass.

Mayo doesn't have the handles to play the PG position and possibly not the smarts either. He has the vision and passing, I'll give you that. He doesn't go to the rim like Rose either. He's always been afraid/reluctant to do so despite his skillset. I'm a big Mayo fan by the way, just don't make him what he's not. Combo guard is fair, but there is a reason Rose plays PG and Mayo doesn't.

[thejumpa]

Mayo cant handle the ball nearly as well as rose... You are a Mayo homer no point in arguing lol....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isydvyX-jKU&p=0A0F322F6B572114&playnext=1&index=10


Here is one pass since you asked....

That pass was kind of weak. It was a basic bounce pass that Rose barely looked away for. I think OJ is right on this one. I rarely see Rose really make any difficult passes or ones that show he has great court vision.

[Willkill24]

Rose is a score first PG

[Rose]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWdV4wIxyXk&feature=related

[drwax26]

That pass was kind of weak. It was a basic bounce pass that Rose barely looked away for. I think OJ is right on this one. I rarely see Rose really make any difficult passes or ones that show he has great court vision.

Yeah i feel you on that. Rose is asked to score on the team he had. He first was defering to teammates and the coaches told him he needs to score for them to have a chance to win. With the current team he doesnt need to score as much and I believe he has better finishers and/or better shooters.

[thejumpa]

Yeah i feel you on that. Rose is asked to score on the team he had. He first was defering to teammates and the coaches told him he needs to score for them to have a chance to win. With the current team he doesnt need to score as much and I believe he has better finishers and/or better shooters.

Yup. He'll get his shine this year. I wouldn't be surprised if his ppg dipped as they should have more of a balanced offense this season.

18/10/4 on 50%. If he increases his ppg and asg, then I really will be impressed.

[Glide2keva]

Yeah i feel you on that. Rose is asked to score on the team he had. He first was defering to teammates and the coaches told him he needs to score for them to have a chance to win. With the current team he doesnt need to score as much and I believe he has better finishers and/or better shooters.
Don't tell the rose haters this, they just ignore it in their hate speech and never acknowledge it.

[Glide2keva]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWdV4wIxyXk&feature=related
You should find that Rose world championships highlight video, it's got some nice passes in it for all of those guys who say he can't pass, but then they will just ignore like they do everything pro rose.

[drwax26]

Don't tell the rose haters this, they just ignore it in their hate speech and never acknowledge it.
This

[drwax26]

Yup. He'll get his shine this year. I wouldn't be surprised if his ppg dipped as they should have more of a balanced offense this season.

18/10/4 on 50%. If he increases his ppg and asg, then I really will be impressed.

I completely agree and no reason he isnt capable of producing these numbers. Then all the haters will be riding him...

[Yung D-Will]

21-24 PPG
7-9 APG
3-5 RPG


:pimp:

I love how people act like averaging 10 assist is just an easy everyday task. An elite passer in Rajon Rondo with offensive options around him didn't even average exactly 10 apg.

[Glide2keva]

I completely agree and no reason he isnt capable of producing these numbers. Then all the haters will be riding him...
Nope, they'll just figure out more ways to hate on him.

[drwax26]

21-24 PPG 7-9 APG 3-5 RPG


:pimp:

lets be real if he avg 24 9 5 he would be a top 5 player in the league lol.... 18 10 4 makes him a top 3 True PG easily....

[Glide2keva]

21-24 PPG
7-9 APG
3-5 RPG


:pimp:

I love how people act like averaging 10 assist is just an easy everyday task. An elite passer in Rajon Rondo with offensive options around him didn't even average exactly 10 apg.
He can definitely pull those numbers off. But he will gladly give up his scoring in order to help the team. They have more scorers so his points won't be as a big a necessity as it was last season with the loss of Ben Gordon.

[Yung D-Will]

21-24 PPG
7-9 APG
3-5 RPG


:pimp:

I love how people act like averaging 10 assist is just an easy everyday task. An elite passer in Rajon Rondo with offensive options around him didn't even average exactly 10 apg.

One of the greatest passers of all time in Jason Kidd only averaged 10 assist three times in his entire career.

It's a lot harder then you're making it seem.

But o wellz

[Yung D-Will]

I see him pretty much in that 7-9 Range the most of his career. And that's not even a bad thing since he has a scoring edge over most point guards in the Nba.

[Glide2keva]

He can definitely pull those numbers off. But he will gladly give up his scoring in order to help the team. They have more scorers so his points won't be as a big a necessity as it was last season with the loss of Ben Gordon.
Rose's assists were definitely hurt last year bykirk and salmons and deng not shooting well. There were plenty of games where he had double figure assists taken from him because of those guys throwing brick fests. He could've gotten 8 per game last year, had he had shooters not shooting 42% from the field and bricking open jump shots.

This isn't making excuses, this is a person giving an observation from having watch more than 75 Bulls games last season.

[Glide2keva]

Damn iPod. Didn't mean to quote myself.

[thejumpa]

One of the greatest passers of all time in Jason Kidd only averaged 10 assist three times in his entire career.

It's a lot harder then you're making it seem.

But o wellz

Yet you are making it seem like Derrick Rose has a chance to do it next year. If he does 24/9/5(best case scenario according to you), he's most likely regarded as an elite player and the Bulls will be very good. Seeing as Boozer will get his touches(he's a 20/10 guy ya know)....you should probably keep things in perspective. Your worst case scenario is pretty much what he did last year. They have legit shooters and big men. No way he puts up 24/9/5.

[Yung D-Will]

Yet you are making it seem like Derrick Rose has a chance to do it next year. If he does 24/9/5(best case scenario according to you), he's most likely regarded as an elite player and the Bulls will be very good. Seeing as Boozer will get his touches(he's a 20/10 guy ya know)....you should probably keep things in perspective. Your worst case scenario is pretty much what he did last year. They have legit shooters and big men. No way he puts up 24/9/5.

I'm not gonna get into Boozer's offensive game. Because that's a whole different story for a different day.

Since people don't seem to believe anything bad about him.

But I guess

22/9/5

Seems More accurate

[Yung D-Will]

Like I said.

Remember this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBPkfbnHwqM

Only averaged 10 assist three times in his career.

And no disrespect to any point guards in the Nba but besides Steve Nash he was a better passer then any of them.

I'm not saying he can't do it I'm saying it's a lot harder then you guys are making it seem. It's not something where you just get more talent and you're suddenly a sure fire lock to average double digit assist.

[Glide2keva]

He's gonna be around 7-high 9 assists wise, unless boozer does a Noah and get his points on putbacks.

[Yung D-Will]

He's gonna be around 7-high 9 assists wise, unless boozer does a Noah and get his points on putbacks.
:oldlol:

Boozer

the problems in your hand now :oldlol:

[Yung D-Will]

He's gonna be around 7-high 9 assists wise, unless boozer does a Noah and get his points on putbacks.

That seems pretty accurate

[Glide2keva]

It is. He's going to have more double figure assist games last year due to the finishers around him. But when the dust settles he'll have about the numbers I said.

And rose is a better passer than he gets credit for in some poster's hateful rantings.

There's a highlight video on YouTube from the world championships and he was getting so nice passes in there.

[evilmonkey]

21-24 PPG
7-9 APG
3-5 RPG


:pimp:

I love how people act like averaging 10 assist is just an easy everyday task. An elite passer in Rajon Rondo with offensive options around him didn't even average exactly 10 apg.

Averaging 10 assists = Must be a PG, an unselfish one, play many minutes.

Averaging 10 assists has to do with a skill ofcourse, but rather more with being a willing pass first guy and play many minutes, you must play PG tho... because if you play any other position even if you are one of the top passers or even maybe the best passer in the NBA you will still not get 10 assists no matter how hard you try. (Lebron proved it recently for example even tho he was close to do that, Grant Hill before him, Larry Bird before him and even Magic Johnson himself proved that it can not be done from another position simply because of not enough ballcontrol and different duties).

[craiye]

It'll be interesting to see what Rose can do this year. The team has certainly upgraded the talent around him, and now he has 3 guys who looked good playing with another elite PG on his team. Will they be able to produce similar results with Rose as they did with Williams? Time will tell.

The new coaching staff will have a big affect on how this plays out as well. All the Jazz guys that came over played well in the flex offense. If Chicago doesn't incorporate this, will Boozer, Korver and Brewer find their place? If they do run a flex offense will Rose adapt and run it successfully?

Williams was/is great at not only passing, but at getting it to guys in their favorite spots. This isn't something I've really seen from Rose and its often overlooked when talking about PG play. Will Rose learn the new guys tendencies?

Personally, I see him improving to 7-8 APG. Not a jump to the 9-10+ range some posters are expectin though. Boozer just got paid and will likely miss some time. I'd imagine the team could take a while to gel. I'm expecting Noah to get fed up with Boozer's lack of D and commitment to personal stats, though hopefully that feud doesn't happen. I think they'll get past all this by dec/Jan and have a very successful season.

[SinJackal]

[IMG].....
Back to Rose.
....
....
Back to Rose again

Look at your man, now back to me~

Totally reminded me of that Old Spice commercial. :lol


Btw, no I don't think he should be a SG, he's a pretty good PG. That's like saying TP should be a SG. PG isn't a position that needs to be a guy who gets a ton of assists anymore. Offenses are pretty elaborate, and don't all need to run the same themes.

Guys like Deron and Paul are great, but guys like Rose, TP, and Baron all have their places too. They're just different types of PGs. Still effective.

[Glide2keva]

Here goes the "Rose isn't a willing passer" bullshit. How many games of his have some if you watched? How much do you guys know about the team dynamic?

Obviously not enough.

[Rose]

Still don't see how the upgrade of Taj-Boozer offensively. And with shooters off the bench in Korver and CJ watson(who at worse is as efficient as Flip Murray) doesn't get him to 10. That's not even taking into account Natural growth, the third year jump, the fact Deng is the third option now, a better coach(most likely) and a real offense doesn't boost him up.

He had Vinny, who I love the guy not one fiber of my being thought he deserved to be fired, but couldn't really create alot of offensive schemes, granted he didn't really have good players to make it work. the only outside "shooters" were Kirk, Pargo and Flip. Taj is worlds behind Boozer offensively.

I think at worst he averages 9 assists a game.

[Yung D-Will]

Still don't see how the upgrade of Taj-Boozer offensively. And with shooters off the bench in Korver and CJ watson(who at worse is as efficient as Flip Murray) doesn't get him to 10. That's not even taking into account Natural growth, the third year jump, the fact Deng is the third option now, a better coach(most likely) and a real offense doesn't boost him up.

He had Vinny, who I love the guy not one fiber of my being thought he deserved to be fired, but couldn't really create alot of offensive schemes, granted he didn't really have good players to make it work. the only outside "shooters" were Kirk, Pargo and Flip. Taj is worlds behind Boozer offensively.

I think at worst he averages 9 assists a game.

I don't know why people suddenly think it's easy to average double digit assist. Are assist gonna be inflated in the 10's decade or something :lol

[Rose]

I don't know why people suddenly think it's easy to average double digit assist. Are assist gonna be inflated in the 10's decade or something :lol
I don't think it is either. But he averaged 6 with who? Luol Deng? and...an okay-ish shooting Kirk? now you're giving him (% wise) the best 3 shooter in the league, and a legit low post scorer in boozer who averages what 18-ish? And is assisted on 75% of his baskets? I mean come on. I'm willing to bet that 3 of two of those assists alone come from Boozer. and one a piece from Korver and Watson.

[Glide2keva]

I don't know why people suddenly think it's easy to average double digit assist. Are assist gonna be inflated in the 10's decade or something :lol
It's not impossible though. And he is very capable.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

BORED of Rose. He has the potential, can we just see if he uses it before we say anything :facepalm we all know who thinks what by now, don't we?

[Glide2keva]

BORED of Rose. He has the potential, can we just see if he uses it before we say anything :facepalm we all know who thinks what by now, don't we?
I agree. I'm just waiting for the season to start. Or at least training camp.

[mananmater]

http://www.unlockedsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/derrick-rose.jpg

Let's start of i personally only watch whoever Memphis plays. Since this was our first meeting with the Bulls. This was my first time I got to evaluate Derrick Rose's game. I have watched some of the best POINT guards in this league expose our defense. The Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo. Even some young puppies like Brandon Jennings and Darren Collision (17 assist on us). We simply struggle with teams with B or better point guard play. Luckily Rose isn't even close to a B point guard. He is a D POINT Guard. An amazing talent probably a top 15 talent for guys 25 or under in this league. However the guy is more of an SG than OJ Mayo, who is more of a PG btw. That is for a different topic to discuss.

Back to Rose.



As you guys know Rose is currently averaging 20 points 3 boards 5 assists. His first 2 games of the month of march he is taking 22 FGA. One thing that jumps at on Rose's statline. Besides his inability to shoot the 3 ball. Is his points per FGAs. Since he can't get to the line, or hit 3s. He really has to shoot the ball ALOT even if it is at an efficient rate. To get to 20 or more. I am talking 18-20 FGAs just to score 20 points..

Next thing i noticed is he is just not very good at pure court vision or passing instincts. I didn't see one pass where i said wow, how did he get that through, none. As you Bulls fans saw Mayo's 3 assists were all bullet legit, threading the needle on the pick and roll to Gasol. Now think if he has the ball everytime down to do that.



Back to Rose again

The most important thing i saw was how awful his pick and roll game is. Guys who are elite PGs, or average a lot of assists say 8 or more. All have killer pick and roll games. I am talking about the John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Deron Williams. I am almost about to put Collison in that mix with what he has been doing to teams in the pick and roll. Rose was no threat at all coming off the pick and roll.

Why is that?
Simply because of lack of court vision, and outside jumper. Is what it boils down to, not his teammates. I have said it before that OJ Mayo was a better passer and playmaker than Derrick Rose even though the stat sheet doesn't show that, because of the different system and roles they play on their team and tonight only comfirmed that.

I don't think Rose will ever maximize his potential being a full time PG, simply because he just doesn't have natural point guard instincts. I hate to bring up John Wall, but look what John Wall is doing under the same system, the dribble drive aka Princeton on Steriods offense, Rose was in under Callipari assist numbers wise. He should be a combo guard that spilts time at point and shooting guard like Billups. That will help Rose's psyche because he would know at an SG his job is to put the ball in the hole, and not worry about passing around the wings with no purpose.

He could average 26 points a game. He reminds me of Monta Ellis a lot. He has the same skill set and limited court vision, so why not max out his potential as an SG. Monta is averaging 25 5 5. There is no reason why Rose can't do the same.

One more thing, you just can't win ball games ( playoffs, championships) down the line when Rose enters his prime, with him being a Point Guard. Taking 20 FGAs or more a game constantly. I mean see Gilbert Areanas.

The last two games Rose has had 24 points on 24 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. and tonight 20 points on 21 FGAs dishing out 3 assists. both in losses.

Great talent, playing wrong position.
Burns87, and Rose's fans do you agree?



I agree with most of this, but some of it is off, unfortanetly rose may win the point guard position on the all star team this year, he has explosive ness that is unmatch for pointguards, he is also a tenacious defender, as well as a dunker, high stamina, the guys hard to stop.

[O.J A 6'4Mamba]

Mayo cant handle the ball nearly as well as rose... You are a Mayo homer no point in arguing lol....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isydvyX-jKU&p=0A0F322F6B572114&playnext=1&index=10


Here is one pass since you asked....

.

It is laughable to think that just because you added a few shooters, and a 20/10 post player that Rose assists are going to jump from 6 apg to 10 apg. court vision like height is unteachable either you have it or you don't.

That was good court vision right there. But come on now Mayo easily has better court vision that Rose, easily.

There is a reason why Mayo has more assists of the nights on NBA TV than Rose because he has more vision by quite some distance.

Court vision is not what is preventing Mayo from being a full blown PG. It is decision making, ball handling under pressure, and taken care of the ball and the lack of experience playing it at the highest level in the NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXa93VfSl8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIXyXReLbDI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMyZ-xjRZJg&feature=related

[Rose]

I actually agree with what you said about Mayo. except I think that decision making is part of court vision.

[Undisputed]

That was good court vision right there. But come on now Mayo easily has better court vision that Rose, easily.

There is a reason why Mayo has more assists of the nights on NBA TV than Rose because he has more vision by quite some distance.
..........................?


I laughed, then I realized that you probably believe the stuff you write and I started to pity you.

[JustinJDW]

Yeah, he's a SG in a PG's body. Same goes for John Wall and Tyreke Evans. Or at least they are overrated a bit like him.

[Samurai Swoosh]

I agree. I'm just waiting for the season to start. Or at least training camp.
You attending training camp?

:oldlol:

[Pharcyde]

Yeah, he's a SG in a PG's body. Same goes for John Wall and Tyreke Evans. Or at least they are overrated a bit like him.
Or it could be that he's a pg who scores better then most other points and definitely better then anyone else on his team?

[Pharcyde]

I think at worst he averages 9 assists a game.

No...

[Yung D-Will]

I think I hear the same description of Rose as Blazers fans used to give me about Roy.

[Rose]

I think I hear the same description of Rose as Blazers fans used to give me about Roy.
I want your answer as to how, Boozer who gets assisted on 75% of his plays, Korver and Cj Watson doesn't give Rose at least 3(and probably more) assists a game. When before he worked with just Deng and okay-ish shooting Kirk.

[Pointguard]

.

It is laughable to think that just because you added a few shooters, and a 20/10 post player that Rose assists are going to jump from 6 apg to 10 apg. court vision like height is unteachable either you have it or you don't.



That was good court vision right there. But come on now Mayo easily has better court vision that Rose, easily.

There is a reason why Mayo has more assists of the nights on NBA TV than Rose because he has more vision by quite some distance.

Court vision is not what is preventing Mayo from being a full blown PG. It is decision making, ball handling under pressure, and taken care of the ball and the lack of experience playing it at the highest level in the NBA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXa93VfSl8Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIXyXReLbDI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMyZ-xjRZJg&feature=related
I remember when Nash had no little court vision and I think now he is among the best in the game. He went from a pretty steady seven a game to the 11 he has now. His development rate was much slower rate than Rose. Rose was not in a system where his passing game could flourish. Besides for the last three months of the year Derrick Rose was the premier point in the league - so be it not a pure point guard. At 21yo that is amazing.

[step_back]

I remember when Nash had no little court vision and I think now he is among the best in the game. He went from a pretty steady seven a game to the 11 he has now. His development rate was much slower rate than Rose. Rose was not in a system where his passing game could flourish. Besides for the last three months of the year Derrick Rose was the premier point in the league - so be it not a pure point guard. At 21yo that is amazing.

Nash went from having a jumpshooting PF who likes to put it on the floor in Dirk to a PF who likes to finish around the basket with a dunk. That right there can get you more APG.

I definately know Rose will average more APG but a minimum of 10 per game for a 3rd year PG is asking a lot. It is plausible though.

[Yung D-Will]

I want your answer as to how, Boozer who gets assisted on 75% of his plays, Korver and Cj Watson doesn't give Rose at least 3(and probably more) assists a game. When before he worked with just Deng and okay-ish shooting Kirk.

Because, I don't think it works like that.

I don't think for like Chris Paul gaining Ariza and Bellinelli

That he's gonna suddenly gonna go from 11 assist to 13 assist per game.

I just don't think your assist rise for every good player you obtain

[Yung D-Will]

There

[Rose]

Because, I don't think it works like that.

I don't think for like Chris Paul gaining Ariza and Bellinelli

That he's gonna suddenly gonna go from 11 assist to 13 assist per game.

I just don't think your assist rise for every good player you obtain
So you think that basically his career is decided that he's a score first guard? Even though at EVERY other level he's been considered a pass first player. At Simeon every said he could be the next Kidd. And his numbers back it up. At Memphis Cal LITERALLY had to tell him to score. That's why they almost lost to Tulsa when they were still undefeated. It's why Kansas owned them in the championship games until the second half. When he took over, and then unfortunately couldn't close it.
If you read his draft profile it says Kidd/Wade. Why in the hell is he all the sudden a score first guy? ESPN says so? ISH rumors say so? No one who watches the Bulls or watched at Memphis, or saw him play at Simeon, said he was score first. Most people say he's un-selfish to a fault.

That said I don't think your assists rate changes to whatever players you get, but to go from zero all stars to even having one is going to show he's pass first. It's shown at almost every other level of basketball he's played. (exception being FIBA) But come on no point guard with no all star talent looks like a pass first guy. I pointed it out before Cp3, D-will, Nash, all play with all stars. As does/did Kidd. You have to talent for your point guard to make you look better.

[redbull]

How about we'll see how he fares this year when he actually has someone to pass to for once.

[Yung D-Will]

So you think that basically his career is decided that he's a score first guard? Even though at EVERY other level he's been considered a pass first player. At Simeon every said he could be the next Kidd. And his numbers back it up. At Memphis Cal LITERALLY had to tell him to score. That's why they almost lost to Tulsa when they were still undefeated. It's why Kansas owned them in the championship games until the second half. When he took over, and then unfortunately couldn't close it.
If you read his draft profile it says Kidd/Wade. Why in the hell is he all the sudden a score first guy? ESPN says so? ISH rumors say so? No one who watches the Bulls or watched at Memphis, or saw him play at Simeon, said he was score first. Most people say he's un-selfish to a fault.

That said I don't think your assists rate changes to whatever players you get, but to go from zero all stars to even having one is going to show he's pass first. It's shown at almost every other level of basketball he's played. (exception being FIBA) But come on no point guard with no all star talent looks like a pass first guy. I pointed it out before Cp3, D-will, Nash, all play with all stars. As does/did Kidd. You have to talent for your point guard to make you look better.

Hence why I said he'll average 7-9 Apg :confusedshrug:

[Rose]

Hence why I said he'll average 7-9 Apg :confusedshrug:
I know but do you think he's a score first pass first? Or he is that rare perfect blend.

[Yung D-Will]

I know but do you think he's a score first pass first? Or he is that rare perfect blend.

I don't really know. All I know is he's a point guard who's really good at scoring and is a good passer.

[Rose]

I don't really know. All I know is he's a point guard who's really good at scoring and is a good passer.
QFT!:cheers:

[MayCeltics]

Doesn't have any court vision. And is missing basic passing skills to be considered a point guard. He is consistently looking for his own shot. Poor man Dwyane WAde

[MayCeltics]

i agree that he lacks court vision a bit but he is a PG..just a scoring pg.
he doesnt have to play like kidd to be a PG...theres plenty of scoring pgs

Also his defense. He is just learning how to defend. :lol 3 years and he guard a chair. Rose has too many flaws in his game to be considered elite.

top15 point guard.

[Tha Catalyst]

Also his defense. He is just learning how to defend. :lol 3 years and he guard a chair. Rose has too many flaws in his game to be considered elite.

top15 point guard.
Terrible trolling attempt. We will see who finishes higher in the MVP rankings and all-nba teams, rose or rondo.

[PurpleChuck]

Also his defense. He is just learning how to defend. :lol 3 years and he guard a chair. Rose has too many flaws in his game to be considered elite.

top15 point guard.

Name 10 PGs better than him now. Trolling fail.:facepalm

[Lebron23]

Mayceltics hated Rose and LeBron. I hope the Bulls and Heat beat his team in the playoffs.

[Semi]

Man don't act like you know everything about this guy after you confirmed you only watched him one game. Yeah, he doesn't have superior court-vision but that doesn't make him a shooting guard. You know what guys are playing the PG position in the NBA? This is clear trolling, or otherwise open a thread and describe why Derek Fisher is more of a shooting guard because he litterly can't make a great assist...I know you were talking about the premiere-pg's but it's the same with that, your a-typicles won't gonna cut it when we talk about complete basketball players.